WEBVTT - The Alabama Murders - Part 6: The Porterfield Sessions 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:26.196 Pushkin previously on Revisionist History. 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:31.156 He was taken out of the cell, thinking that his 0:00:31.436 --> 0:00:37.196 execution was imminent, strapped to a gurney, and he's asking, 0:00:37.796 --> 0:00:40.396 you know, the corrections officers who are with them, what's 0:00:40.436 --> 0:00:40.916 going on. 0:00:42.196 --> 0:00:45.076 You know, an antiseysiologist in good standing is not going 0:00:45.116 --> 0:00:48.476 to spend their wednesdays over at the you know, State 0:00:48.556 --> 0:00:52.596 corrections sticking ivs and people for execution. 0:00:52.916 --> 0:00:55.036 It's not something that we do. 0:00:56.076 --> 0:01:01.236 Because a cold blooded, convicted killer complains about the prodding 0:01:01.436 --> 0:01:04.556 and poking of a small abby. 0:01:04.596 --> 0:01:06.876 Line, really. 0:01:08.116 --> 0:01:12.796 Potting and proo with a needle. After three and a 0:01:12.836 --> 0:01:17.596 half or four hours being strapped to a gurney, you know, 0:01:17.636 --> 0:01:26.396 he was unable to stand, walk, unbutton his shirt, you know, 0:01:26.556 --> 0:01:30.676 change his clothes, do any of that without assistance. 0:01:40.596 --> 0:01:41.676 They attempted to kill him. 0:01:41.676 --> 0:01:45.236 On November seventeenth, his lawyers called me, I think ten 0:01:45.316 --> 0:01:47.636 days later. I didn't know them, They didn't know me, 0:01:47.676 --> 0:01:49.356 and they said, you know, we have a client who's 0:01:49.356 --> 0:01:53.676 had this thing happen. He's really struggling. Would you take 0:01:53.676 --> 0:01:56.516 a look at him? And we talked to him. 0:01:57.236 --> 0:02:00.676 In the months after his botched execution, Kenny Smith had 0:02:00.716 --> 0:02:06.196 a confidant Kate Porterfield a psychologist who specializes in trauma. 0:02:07.356 --> 0:02:10.476 She's consulted on dozens of row cases in her career, 0:02:11.076 --> 0:02:13.196 spent a lot of time at the US Military prison 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:16.836 at Guantanamo Bay. Worked for years treating patients at the 0:02:16.876 --> 0:02:21.036 Clinic for Torture Victims at Bellevue Hospital in Manhattan. A 0:02:21.116 --> 0:02:23.876 very good friend of mine, Stephen, knows her well and 0:02:23.956 --> 0:02:26.596 told me one day, you have to meet my friend Kate. 0:02:27.196 --> 0:02:30.396 She has the strangest job in America. So I called 0:02:30.436 --> 0:02:33.236 her up and we began to talk with no real 0:02:33.276 --> 0:02:36.876 plan or agenda, And in one of our conversations, she 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:38.756 told me about a case that I had never heard 0:02:38.796 --> 0:02:42.436 about before, and a person she'd been asked to evaluate 0:02:42.636 --> 0:02:48.276 who had affected her deeply, Kenny Smith. That's how I 0:02:48.356 --> 0:02:51.796 learned about the murder of Elizabeth Sennett. Everything in this 0:02:51.916 --> 0:02:58.796 series began with my conversations with Cape Porterfield. So tell 0:02:58.836 --> 0:03:01.956 me about your first busy with Kenny. 0:03:02.076 --> 0:03:04.076 So my first contact with him was a call. Actually 0:03:04.996 --> 0:03:06.836 it was remarkably. 0:03:07.676 --> 0:03:08.116 Pleasant. 0:03:08.436 --> 0:03:11.996 Kenny was a very resilient man. He was you know, 0:03:12.036 --> 0:03:13.756 he had been on death row for thirty four years. 0:03:14.596 --> 0:03:16.796 This was a man used to living on death row 0:03:16.956 --> 0:03:18.676 and least to being in prison. And one of the 0:03:18.676 --> 0:03:20.436 things he said to me is, you know, he used 0:03:20.436 --> 0:03:24.036 to call me Doc. He'd said, Doc, I am very institutionalized. 0:03:24.316 --> 0:03:27.276 I know how to do this. I've made a life here. 0:03:27.996 --> 0:03:31.116 I have a very good set of friends here, and 0:03:31.116 --> 0:03:33.076 I have really good relationships on the outside. He had 0:03:33.116 --> 0:03:36.116 been married, he had children from before he went in, 0:03:36.196 --> 0:03:39.356 and he had relationships with his children. So he said 0:03:39.396 --> 0:03:42.996 to me, I'm very institutionalized. I've been through a lot, 0:03:43.316 --> 0:03:47.036 but I'm actually pretty stable. And he said, but I'm 0:03:47.436 --> 0:03:49.396 I'm falling apart right now from what happened. 0:03:50.076 --> 0:03:50.916 I mean, I think what now. 0:03:50.956 --> 0:03:55.036 What I think is he was signaling to me, I'm 0:03:55.036 --> 0:03:57.276 pretty sturdy, but this really messed me up. 0:04:04.276 --> 0:04:07.156 Kate Porderfield would end up spending many hours with Kenny 0:04:07.156 --> 0:04:10.156 Smith over the next year, looking to him on the phone, 0:04:10.396 --> 0:04:13.356 visiting him at home in prison, trying to understand what 0:04:13.476 --> 0:04:16.076 happened to him in that execution chamber on the night 0:04:16.116 --> 0:04:20.316 of November seventeenth, twenty twenty two, trying to figure out 0:04:20.636 --> 0:04:24.316 how damaged he had been by the experience, writing an 0:04:24.316 --> 0:04:27.076 assessment of his condition that could be used by his 0:04:27.156 --> 0:04:31.676 legal team in court, and most of all just trying 0:04:31.716 --> 0:04:36.556 to understand who he was. My name is Malcolm Gladwell. 0:04:36.796 --> 0:04:42.276 You're listening to the Alabama murders. In this installment, I 0:04:42.316 --> 0:04:44.676 want to look at Kenny Smith through the eyes of 0:04:44.756 --> 0:04:48.196 Cape Porterfield, to see the Kenny Smith that she saw 0:04:48.556 --> 0:04:51.356 in those many encounters between the end of twenty twenty 0:04:51.356 --> 0:04:56.196 two and the Long Winter of twenty twenty three. This 0:04:56.356 --> 0:05:10.316 is episode six, the Porterfield Sessions. In my third conversation 0:05:10.436 --> 0:05:13.436 with Cape Porterfield, well before we got to Kenny Smith, 0:05:13.956 --> 0:05:16.836 she told me about a patient she'd seen many years ago, 0:05:17.156 --> 0:05:19.636 an older man. This is when she was working at 0:05:19.636 --> 0:05:22.876 the Torture Clinic of Bellevue. He was a refugee from 0:05:22.876 --> 0:05:27.156 a war torn country. He'd been imprisoned, tortured, and at 0:05:27.156 --> 0:05:30.036 one point he had been subjected to a mock execution. 0:05:30.796 --> 0:05:33.636 He had been made to believe by his captors that 0:05:33.716 --> 0:05:35.516 he was about to die. 0:05:35.756 --> 0:05:38.076 So this was probably the first person I ever worked 0:05:38.076 --> 0:05:40.316 with who had had a mock execution, and it is 0:05:40.676 --> 0:05:48.116 its own unimaginable horror that leaves a really really bad physical, physiological, 0:05:48.196 --> 0:05:48.956 rather imprint. 0:05:51.316 --> 0:05:53.916 Her goal was to gently push him back towards his 0:05:53.996 --> 0:05:58.356 traumatic experience to better understand and to help him. 0:05:58.556 --> 0:06:04.756 He was very rigid and he would sit just really 0:06:04.956 --> 0:06:09.796 tightly wound in the sessions, really gripping the chair, and I. 0:06:11.316 --> 0:06:12.556 He didn't want to go there. 0:06:13.756 --> 0:06:15.876 It took a very long time to draw him out. 0:06:16.836 --> 0:06:18.716 She would go on to work with five or six 0:06:18.756 --> 0:06:22.076 other patients who had gone through something similar. A gun 0:06:22.116 --> 0:06:24.836 they thought was loaded, put to their head on to 0:06:24.876 --> 0:06:29.116 realize it was empty, being held underwater almost long enough, 0:06:29.476 --> 0:06:31.876 and even in one case, being left in a cage 0:06:31.876 --> 0:06:35.916 with a lion. She came to believe that this kind 0:06:35.956 --> 0:06:39.796 of experience deserved its own category. Why is a mock 0:06:39.876 --> 0:06:42.476 execution uniquely damaging? 0:06:43.356 --> 0:06:44.356 Let me say it this way. 0:06:44.516 --> 0:06:46.756 When someone says you're about to die, you know you're terrified, 0:06:46.756 --> 0:06:49.916 and terror doesn't even capture it. You're you know, most 0:06:49.916 --> 0:06:52.076 people lose control in some part of their body, maybe 0:06:52.116 --> 0:06:53.116 they're bladder or a bow. 0:06:54.076 --> 0:06:55.156 You know, there's usually. 0:06:55.556 --> 0:06:59.516 Incredible exclaiming of horror. You know, it's not good to 0:06:59.516 --> 0:07:01.516 think you're about to die. I mean, I've seen six 0:07:01.556 --> 0:07:03.436 people or whatever try to describe it to me, and 0:07:03.476 --> 0:07:06.316 they all fall apart. It's like I've never had someone 0:07:06.436 --> 0:07:08.996 say it the first time and not really fall apart. 0:07:09.276 --> 0:07:12.796 Like collapse and different ways. 0:07:12.836 --> 0:07:15.636 I had a guy who had been kidnapped and the 0:07:16.476 --> 0:07:20.156 soldiers came in and said, if we don't get the ransom, 0:07:20.476 --> 0:07:22.156 you know, we're going to kill you. And then they 0:07:22.156 --> 0:07:23.676 came in the next day and they had a gun 0:07:23.716 --> 0:07:25.556 and they put it to his head. This man was 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:31.796 the most put together, disciplined, you know, kind of controlled guy, 0:07:32.996 --> 0:07:35.676 and when he tried to tell that moment, he just 0:07:36.036 --> 0:07:38.236 fell down in his chair and grabbed his head and 0:07:38.276 --> 0:07:39.836 he was like, my head's hurting, my head's urting. 0:07:39.836 --> 0:07:40.516 I can't, I can't. 0:07:40.836 --> 0:07:45.436 There's just this incredible physiological, you know, probably hormonal dump 0:07:45.556 --> 0:07:49.276 into his system of the same thing that happened, you know, 0:07:50.636 --> 0:07:55.036 when the mock execution took place. So essentially what trauma 0:07:55.116 --> 0:07:59.636 does is it becomes imprinted in your body and your 0:07:59.636 --> 0:08:02.836 memory banks are then linked and hooked up with the 0:08:02.836 --> 0:08:03.476 fear reaction. 0:08:03.756 --> 0:08:05.916 So that's the problem. It's a bad linkage. 0:08:05.996 --> 0:08:08.636 And so when you think about being told I'm about 0:08:08.676 --> 0:08:11.036 to kill you, and then you try to tell it, 0:08:11.116 --> 0:08:13.556 your body just goes it goes right into that state 0:08:13.596 --> 0:08:14.076 of terror. 0:08:17.036 --> 0:08:19.796 This is the first thing that Kate Porterfield saw when 0:08:19.876 --> 0:08:22.276 she sat down with Kenny Smith that he was in 0:08:22.316 --> 0:08:26.716 that special category, but his experience in some ways was 0:08:26.756 --> 0:08:30.916 even more overwhelming. This was not a mock execution. It 0:08:30.956 --> 0:08:35.276 was a botched execution, meaning it wasn't a trick. They 0:08:35.316 --> 0:08:38.756 were actually intending to execute Kenny. They just didn't manage 0:08:38.796 --> 0:08:42.396 to pull it off. And Kate was entreating someone years 0:08:42.476 --> 0:08:46.036 after it had occurred with Kenny Smith, this had just happened. 0:08:47.156 --> 0:08:49.116 This was different, you know. 0:08:49.196 --> 0:08:57.836 This was this very orchestrated, slow, systematic process being done 0:08:57.876 --> 0:09:00.156 by these guys all in this room who he knew, 0:09:00.236 --> 0:09:02.076 Guys who had been his guards for like some of 0:09:02.156 --> 0:09:04.636 them he knew something he didn't, but you know, guys 0:09:04.636 --> 0:09:07.076 he's known for a lot of years trying to kill him. 0:09:07.956 --> 0:09:09.596 Very hard to wrap your and around. 0:09:10.356 --> 0:09:14.676 How did the guards react? 0:09:15.196 --> 0:09:18.116 You know? I think that he believed they got very 0:09:18.236 --> 0:09:21.156 rattled and he watched it on their faces, but no 0:09:21.196 --> 0:09:22.036 one could do anything. 0:09:22.076 --> 0:09:24.156 And it's a scary narrative then of what. 0:09:24.116 --> 0:09:26.716 People will do with orders, right, Like I mean, there 0:09:26.756 --> 0:09:28.516 was a point, after all these poking of him with 0:09:28.556 --> 0:09:31.676 needles going around his feet, his arms, where they took 0:09:31.716 --> 0:09:35.076 the gurney and inverted it upwards with his feet up 0:09:35.556 --> 0:09:38.476 and left him there for I have to look, but 0:09:38.556 --> 0:09:40.676 I think it was upwards of twenty minutes, thirty minutes. 0:09:41.116 --> 0:09:44.276 They came back in and they t so then they 0:09:44.276 --> 0:09:46.516 started poking on his collar bunt. So they took this man. 0:09:46.916 --> 0:09:49.316 They tipped him upside down so that the blood would 0:09:49.356 --> 0:09:51.156 rush to a part of his body. They came back in, 0:09:51.316 --> 0:09:53.396 they injected him with something which he believes and we 0:09:53.436 --> 0:09:56.676 believe was probably a painkiller, and then they started going 0:09:56.756 --> 0:09:59.236 on his neck, you know, around his collar bun. I mean, 0:10:00.396 --> 0:10:04.316 I'm sorry, but I don't imagine that a person who's 0:10:05.356 --> 0:10:07.756 doing that and witnessing it can walk away from that 0:10:07.836 --> 0:10:10.036 unscathed themselves. 0:10:14.196 --> 0:10:17.396 Kenny wanted to apologize to the Senate family and say 0:10:17.436 --> 0:10:19.996 goodbye to his own family, but he was all alone 0:10:20.036 --> 0:10:23.156 with the execution team. He thought they were killing him 0:10:23.356 --> 0:10:24.996 before the witnesses could get there. 0:10:26.876 --> 0:10:29.796 And he said one of the ways he stayed calm 0:10:29.876 --> 0:10:32.796 when there was all that dead time was he would 0:10:33.156 --> 0:10:35.236 he would say to himself, turn to the right, to 0:10:35.276 --> 0:10:37.076 the victim's family and apologize. 0:10:37.116 --> 0:10:39.236 Turn to the left, tell my family, I love him. 0:10:39.276 --> 0:10:40.516 So he would have this little practice. 0:10:40.516 --> 0:10:43.956 To the right, I'm sorry, to the left, I love you, 0:10:44.276 --> 0:10:46.276 And he said that kind of helped him pass the time, 0:10:46.276 --> 0:10:50.036 which also was like remarkable to me. He was thinking, 0:10:50.276 --> 0:10:54.396 thinking about how you're managing, like how you're gonna choreograph this. 0:10:57.756 --> 0:11:01.196 They come back in, they begin to untie the. 0:11:02.676 --> 0:11:06.076 Tourniquet on his arm, and they say it's over now. 0:11:06.396 --> 0:11:08.796 And then one of the people on the team who 0:11:08.876 --> 0:11:12.676 he did no says to him, it's over and I'll 0:11:12.676 --> 0:11:18.956 be praying for you. So these kinds of moments for 0:11:19.076 --> 0:11:26.356 Kenny were just what's the word unmanageable. Afterwards, they were 0:11:26.436 --> 0:11:28.276 unmanageable moments with other humans. 0:11:30.276 --> 0:11:33.476 One minute they were trying to kill him, then they 0:11:33.516 --> 0:11:34.756 weren't trying to kill him. 0:11:35.316 --> 0:11:41.276 It's very confusing. And then the man, you know, references God. 0:11:42.396 --> 0:11:47.236 Kenny's you know, most core faith right is his belief 0:11:47.276 --> 0:11:51.196 in God and his belief that because of his faith, 0:11:51.236 --> 0:11:54.436 you know, he had really been saved. I'm not talking 0:11:54.476 --> 0:11:56.436 about saved in the execution. I'm saying saved as a man, 0:11:56.796 --> 0:12:00.316 you know, his faith saved him. So this collision of 0:12:00.956 --> 0:12:03.436 people trying to kill you, your body being in something 0:12:03.436 --> 0:12:06.116 that we don't really understand unless you've had unless you 0:12:06.156 --> 0:12:08.956 thought you were going to die, and then someone bringing 0:12:09.196 --> 0:12:15.156 God in and saying this sort of generous thing, I'm 0:12:15.156 --> 0:12:18.116 going to pray for you. It was it like the 0:12:18.116 --> 0:12:19.996 word unmanageable is what I keep coming up with. He 0:12:20.396 --> 0:12:23.436 couldn't grasp it, and he couldn't he couldn't deal with 0:12:23.476 --> 0:12:24.876 it after. I mean, there were many things that made 0:12:24.876 --> 0:12:28.076 in distress, but that was one. You know, the warden 0:12:28.116 --> 0:12:30.436 taking his head and saying this is this is what's 0:12:30.476 --> 0:12:32.516 best for you was another. 0:12:36.676 --> 0:12:40.476 Kate Porderfield would end up having seventeen marathon phone sessions 0:12:40.516 --> 0:12:43.116 with Kenny Smith, and she would twice fly down to 0:12:43.156 --> 0:12:46.476 Alabama to meet with him in person, and after he 0:12:46.516 --> 0:12:49.156 had told her the story of what happened on November seventeenth, 0:12:49.916 --> 0:12:52.116 he told her the story of his life in the 0:12:52.196 --> 0:12:56.676 years leading up to the murder of Elizabeth Sennett. That's 0:12:57.356 --> 0:13:21.836 after the brain. Kenny Smith's full name was Kenneth Eugene Smith. 0:13:22.476 --> 0:13:25.436 Both Kenny and his brother Joey were named for their father, 0:13:25.796 --> 0:13:28.116 a truck driver named Wesley Eugene Smith. 0:13:29.036 --> 0:13:35.196 Did you ever naming the matter? Yeah? 0:13:35.316 --> 0:13:38.636 Linda Smith, Kenny Smith's mom, still lives in the shoals. 0:13:39.156 --> 0:13:42.156 She spoke with Lee Hedgspeth, a local reporter who knew 0:13:42.196 --> 0:13:44.036 Kenny well and covered his case. 0:13:45.116 --> 0:13:49.556 Has he passed now, Jane, Oh he is, Yeah, Hey, 0:13:51.076 --> 0:13:53.036 I think he was forty five when he passed. 0:13:53.996 --> 0:13:57.356 Linda and Jean had five children together in quick succession. 0:13:58.036 --> 0:13:59.596 Kenny was the eldest. 0:13:59.996 --> 0:14:03.836 He didn't really want a child that at that point. 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:05.476 Why do you think that was? 0:14:06.596 --> 0:14:11.916 I just I don't know. I guess he wouldn't through 0:14:11.996 --> 0:14:15.796 with his wild oats, I guess. 0:14:15.116 --> 0:14:16.676 So tell me about the wild oats. 0:14:17.956 --> 0:14:21.836 Not too much of a drinker, more of like pills. 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:24.996 Back then, it was kind of uppers and downers. 0:14:25.436 --> 0:14:27.716 Jean was on the road a lot. He had another 0:14:27.756 --> 0:14:30.876 relationship then that says it was with an underage girl. 0:14:31.436 --> 0:14:34.036 Jean got her pregnant, but he still came around to 0:14:34.036 --> 0:14:37.236 see Linda, to sleep with her or just to hit her. 0:14:38.316 --> 0:14:42.836 Oh yeah, he always did that, just about I mean, 0:14:42.876 --> 0:14:48.276 not when we first started dating. It started. I guess 0:14:48.276 --> 0:14:55.196 it started after Kenny was born. You know what I 0:14:55.236 --> 0:15:00.876 think is he was doing stuff and he was thinking 0:15:00.916 --> 0:15:06.316 I was, you know, he was jealous. Yeah, but I wasn't, 0:15:06.396 --> 0:15:10.756 you know, I had a kid to raise. I mean, 0:15:10.796 --> 0:15:13.156 he would just hit me in the head and I 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:15.476 mean I still got a scar right there. Where he 0:15:15.636 --> 0:15:18.956 through a bottle at me and right here. It may 0:15:18.996 --> 0:15:22.236 have been gone now, but it was just you know, 0:15:22.636 --> 0:15:27.556 hit me, knocked me in the floor, slappen me. We'll see, 0:15:27.676 --> 0:15:30.036 like I said, he thought that I was you know, 0:15:30.116 --> 0:15:32.876 out doing stuff and partying, and like I said, which 0:15:32.876 --> 0:15:33.676 I wasn't. 0:15:34.996 --> 0:15:38.836 And can you recall, like, for example, the incident with 0:15:38.876 --> 0:15:41.556 the bottle, Can you tell me what happened then? Do 0:15:41.596 --> 0:15:41.996 you remember? 0:15:42.276 --> 0:15:44.996 Yeah? I mean, I I mean I didn't know he 0:15:45.116 --> 0:15:49.276 was coming in there that which it didn't matter, but 0:15:49.396 --> 0:15:51.396 I was at home, you know, and a friend of 0:15:51.396 --> 0:15:54.956 mine for work was just there with me, and Kenny 0:15:55.076 --> 0:15:59.036 was there and he just came in and he was 0:15:59.116 --> 0:16:01.196 just enraged that night. 0:16:03.196 --> 0:16:07.396 Do you remember what Kenny's reaction would be when that's happening. 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:09.116 How old is Kenny around this time? 0:16:09.636 --> 0:16:14.676 I remember that time, He's probably throughfore, I mean its run, 0:16:14.716 --> 0:16:19.196 get up on the couch and sit ye and Joeyan 0:16:19.356 --> 0:16:19.996 just you know. 0:16:23.156 --> 0:16:26.316 Do you remember anything that Kenny ever said to you, 0:16:26.516 --> 0:16:29.996 either when the abuse was happening or afterward? 0:16:30.836 --> 0:16:34.676 Oh yeah, I mean he would I mean, you know, 0:16:34.796 --> 0:16:40.156 and hug me, and you know, I guess you don't. 0:16:41.676 --> 0:16:43.436 I guess they was telling me, you know, everything would 0:16:43.436 --> 0:16:43.836 be okay. 0:16:49.316 --> 0:16:54.556 Kenny would draw pictures and give them to his mom. 0:16:54.796 --> 0:16:58.876 Kenny's sentencing hearing, a series of witnesses testified about Jeane's abuse. 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:01.996 One was a woman who worked as a waitress with Linda. 0:17:02.916 --> 0:17:05.276 Jean would come into the restaurant when Linda was working. 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:09.316 This is what she said, Well, he would take what 0:17:09.316 --> 0:17:11.876 money Linda had made in tips, and if she did 0:17:11.916 --> 0:17:14.276 not make what he thought he needed, she would get 0:17:14.276 --> 0:17:17.636 slapped and beat around right in the restaurant. He would 0:17:17.676 --> 0:17:19.316 walk in and he would tell her he needed to 0:17:19.356 --> 0:17:21.716 talk to her. Well, she would walk off into a 0:17:21.756 --> 0:17:24.156 private place with him, which was around the corner in 0:17:24.196 --> 0:17:26.276 the hall, and the next thing, you know, you would 0:17:26.276 --> 0:17:29.516 hear this commotion and he would be beating her. He 0:17:29.556 --> 0:17:31.476 would slap her and he would hit her with his fist. 0:17:32.236 --> 0:17:34.116 I have seen him back her up in the corner 0:17:34.156 --> 0:17:36.516 and just beating her. And I have seen her when 0:17:36.596 --> 0:17:39.236 her pocket would be torn on the uniform where he 0:17:39.276 --> 0:17:43.116 had taken the money out of it. Question and how 0:17:43.156 --> 0:17:46.956 often would he come around? Answer? Well, at least three, 0:17:47.116 --> 0:17:50.036 two to three times a week that happened. He always 0:17:50.036 --> 0:17:58.916 made a point to hit her around the eyes, The 0:17:58.996 --> 0:18:02.156 fifth of the children Linda and Jean had together was Michael, 0:18:02.636 --> 0:18:06.276 who died a few hours after birth. His lungs never developed. 0:18:07.236 --> 0:18:11.716 In testimony, Kenny's brother Joey said, quote, well, he blamed 0:18:11.716 --> 0:18:14.396 mother for it and said it was her fault, and 0:18:14.636 --> 0:18:17.076 pretty soon, you know, she felt bad, even kind of 0:18:17.116 --> 0:18:21.756 accepted the blame and started drinking real heavy. Question does 0:18:21.796 --> 0:18:27.316 your mom drink now today? Answer no. Kenny, Joey said 0:18:27.356 --> 0:18:30.276 in his testimony, was the one taking care of her. 0:18:31.116 --> 0:18:33.076 He would be in there with a cold rag on 0:18:33.156 --> 0:18:35.556 her head, cleaning up the vomit out of the floor 0:18:35.596 --> 0:18:38.236 when she missed the commode, and trying to wrestle her 0:18:38.316 --> 0:18:40.076 up out of the floor to get her in the 0:18:40.116 --> 0:18:44.036 bed because she was a big woman. Question how old 0:18:44.076 --> 0:18:45.916 do you think Kenny was the first time that you 0:18:45.956 --> 0:18:48.636 saw him picking your mama up and talking to her 0:18:48.636 --> 0:18:50.956 and wiping her How old do you think he was? 0:18:51.716 --> 0:18:56.956 Answer probably eight or nine. Question did there ever come 0:18:56.996 --> 0:19:00.836 a time when you saw your brother turn to drinking? Answer? Oh, yes. 0:19:01.556 --> 0:19:05.036 Question do you remember how old he was? Answer he 0:19:05.116 --> 0:19:08.396 was sixteen. Question did there ever come a time when 0:19:08.396 --> 0:19:12.396 you saw your brother start to drink too much? Answer yes, 0:19:15.396 --> 0:19:18.276 Kenny met a woman. They had a child together, Michael, 0:19:18.756 --> 0:19:21.556 named for Kenny's brother who died. They moved to a 0:19:21.596 --> 0:19:24.716 house in Florence, and one day a friend of his 0:19:24.796 --> 0:19:27.076 from high school asked him if he wanted a little 0:19:27.156 --> 0:19:31.276 quick money roughing someone up and off He and John 0:19:31.356 --> 0:19:35.316 Parker went in Parker's Pontiac Grand Prix with a hunting 0:19:35.356 --> 0:19:37.876 knife and a fifth of wild turkey on the console 0:19:37.916 --> 0:19:40.636 between them to do what he had seen people do 0:19:41.436 --> 0:20:01.316 one hundred times in his life. Kate Porterfield and I 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:04.996 sometimes digressed into more personal subjects. We talked a lot 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:07.756 about our kids and parenting, what she had learned as 0:20:07.796 --> 0:20:10.236 a mother of three daughters. And there was something she 0:20:10.316 --> 0:20:13.756 said at one point that I can't stop thinking about. 0:20:14.316 --> 0:20:16.076 You know, Catherine Harrison, You know that is she's a 0:20:16.156 --> 0:20:16.836 great writer. 0:20:16.956 --> 0:20:20.916 Yeah, and she she wrote this incredible memoir about her 0:20:21.156 --> 0:20:24.196 life with her father who had disappeared and then got 0:20:24.236 --> 0:20:27.276 involved with her in incredibly inappropriate way. 0:20:27.276 --> 0:20:30.436 And it was a beautiful, very painful memoir, very brave. 0:20:31.276 --> 0:20:32.196 And she has a line in there. 0:20:32.196 --> 0:20:33.636 I'm going to get it wrong, but where she says, 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:38.236 we think that parenting is about unconditional love, and what 0:20:38.276 --> 0:20:40.956 we mean by that is that the parents have unconditional 0:20:40.996 --> 0:20:44.396 love towards the children. But what you learn as you 0:20:44.436 --> 0:20:46.356 grow and as you have kids is that actually the 0:20:46.396 --> 0:20:49.396 unconditional love is coming from the child to the parent. 0:20:50.956 --> 0:20:53.076 And I will say I see that all the time 0:20:53.156 --> 0:20:55.316 in my patients who got abused as children, which is 0:20:55.876 --> 0:20:58.236 they love their parents. They're hungry for their parents. They 0:20:58.316 --> 0:21:01.156 yearned for the memory of their parent to be the 0:21:01.156 --> 0:21:04.196 good parts. And it doesn't matter that the parents did 0:21:04.316 --> 0:21:05.396 terrible things to them. 0:21:05.796 --> 0:21:06.716 It doesn't matter. 0:21:06.716 --> 0:21:08.196 No, I mean, it matters to who they've become. 0:21:08.236 --> 0:21:11.156 But in their sense of self, oh, I see, they'll 0:21:11.236 --> 0:21:13.836 yearn for that parent. Children have an unconditional My point is, 0:21:13.916 --> 0:21:15.556 children have an unconditional love of the parent. 0:21:18.316 --> 0:21:21.076 When Kate Porterfield was just out of college, she had 0:21:21.116 --> 0:21:23.996 been attacked by a stranger. He took her by surprise 0:21:24.076 --> 0:21:26.796 and beat her up. She suffered from what she now 0:21:26.836 --> 0:21:31.556 realizes was PTSD. It took her years to recover. That 0:21:31.716 --> 0:21:34.596 experience was one of the reasons she developed such an 0:21:34.596 --> 0:21:38.956 interest in treating trauma. She had no connection to her attacker, 0:21:38.996 --> 0:21:42.836 though no reason to return to him, it was possible 0:21:42.876 --> 0:21:45.876 to understand ultimately that this was just a case of 0:21:45.916 --> 0:21:49.556 being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:52.356 what if he wasn't a stranger. What if you loved 0:21:52.436 --> 0:21:55.556 your attacker, And what if your love was so powerful 0:21:55.676 --> 0:21:59.076 and instinctual that you couldn't help yourself that you kept 0:21:59.156 --> 0:22:02.516 coming back again and again, hoping things might be different. 0:22:04.316 --> 0:22:06.716 I think that's another kind of suffering that deserves its 0:22:06.756 --> 0:22:09.236 own category. 0:22:14.796 --> 0:22:16.156 I can't tell you how many the moms of my 0:22:16.156 --> 0:22:19.876 clients were sexually abused. I can't tell you. It's incredible, 0:22:20.796 --> 0:22:25.996 you know, and you just go, It's just perpetrating and 0:22:25.996 --> 0:22:27.716 perpetrating and perpetrating through generations. 0:22:27.836 --> 0:22:31.116 I'm curious about what it is you said that dealing 0:22:31.156 --> 0:22:34.436 with these repeated cases if people who had been through 0:22:34.436 --> 0:22:37.156 this kind of childhood experience, Yeah, taught you a lot. 0:22:37.196 --> 0:22:39.156 I want to put my finger on what it taught you. 0:22:39.276 --> 0:22:42.276 I understood child development. I'd trained in child psychology, and 0:22:42.276 --> 0:22:43.556 I was like, you know, pretty good on it. 0:22:43.636 --> 0:22:45.556 But when you see it. 0:22:45.436 --> 0:22:48.916 Go wrong, you really then understand what it takes for 0:22:48.956 --> 0:22:52.436 it to go right. And so watching again and again, 0:22:52.516 --> 0:22:55.596 men grown men sitting across from me, cover with tattoos, 0:22:56.396 --> 0:23:01.996 you know, guys who had killed a couple people, maybe 0:23:02.516 --> 0:23:05.876 crying watching these men sobbing when they recounted being eight 0:23:05.996 --> 0:23:10.956 years old and being here's one and I'll frame carefully, 0:23:10.996 --> 0:23:14.276 but you know, raped at age eight multiple times by 0:23:14.356 --> 0:23:18.956 an older family member, and this you know, person who 0:23:18.956 --> 0:23:23.476 had committed homicides, no question, sobbing talking about it. That 0:23:24.356 --> 0:23:28.436 was so powerful for me in getting me to understand 0:23:28.516 --> 0:23:31.076 that this guy is sitting across from me who is quote 0:23:31.156 --> 0:23:35.356 unquote scary to everybody in the world. And he looks scary. Right, 0:23:36.796 --> 0:23:39.036 he is a hurt person. If you go all the 0:23:39.036 --> 0:23:41.356 way back, he's a hurt little boy, and he's now 0:23:41.436 --> 0:23:46.156 got warrior He's got warrior shit all over himself, right, 0:23:46.156 --> 0:23:48.636 he's got armor, he's got tattoos over his face. He's 0:23:48.636 --> 0:23:51.396 so bad ass and he hurts people, right, and it 0:23:51.596 --> 0:23:54.516 all if you can kind of back channel it and 0:23:54.556 --> 0:23:57.636 go back in time, he was a little boy who 0:23:57.636 --> 0:23:58.436 had happened to him. 0:23:58.596 --> 0:24:00.516 He was really really harmed. 0:24:00.276 --> 0:24:02.916 In this hypothetical, semi hypothetical case of the guy with 0:24:02.996 --> 0:24:06.076 the tattoos. Yeah, uh, how often in his life do 0:24:06.076 --> 0:24:08.356 you think he talked about that childhood abuse to somebody? 0:24:08.396 --> 0:24:10.476