WEBVTT - Jonathan Goldstein on Wild Card 0:00:15.210 --> 0:00:15.730 Pushkin. 0:00:20.290 --> 0:00:25.770 Hello everyone, Hello, Hi, hello, Hi. Here we all are 0:00:25.850 --> 0:00:30.050 in the studio. Yes, indeed, and today we've got something 0:00:30.370 --> 0:00:31.770 a little different. 0:00:32.450 --> 0:00:34.890 Ooh but kayleie, I don't like different things. 0:00:35.290 --> 0:00:38.050 Well, Jonathan, you might just have to give it a chance, 0:00:38.090 --> 0:00:42.050 because sometimes trying new things can be scary but rewarding. 0:00:42.330 --> 0:00:45.489 Yeah yeah, okay, well here comes the chuo choo train 0:00:46.450 --> 0:00:48.330 of listening. What do we got here? 0:00:49.290 --> 0:00:52.610 Recently you're a guest on a show called Wildcard? Do 0:00:52.610 --> 0:00:53.170 you remember that? 0:00:53.650 --> 0:00:56.010 Of course? I remember? How can I forget? I was 0:00:56.050 --> 0:00:57.650 interviewed by Rachel Martin. 0:00:58.250 --> 0:01:01.490 How did it feel, Jonathan to be in the guest seat? 0:01:01.730 --> 0:01:04.569 It felked. I didn't like it. It's a tremendous loss 0:01:04.569 --> 0:01:06.410 of control. I have to say. It was like the 0:01:06.530 --> 0:01:09.010 spider had become the fly or something. But you know, 0:01:09.530 --> 0:01:13.090 here's the incredible. This is nuts. It doesn't even make 0:01:13.130 --> 0:01:17.010 sense to me. I'm just looking at their past episodes. Okay, 0:01:17.050 --> 0:01:22.770 of wild Card, you know who was on two weeks ago? 0:01:23.210 --> 0:01:27.929 Someone that's so famous they're known by one name, sure, Adele. 0:01:28.210 --> 0:01:31.770 It wasn't Share or Adel someone more? Actually, dare I 0:01:31.810 --> 0:01:33.290 say maybe someone more famous? 0:01:33.970 --> 0:01:34.490 Obama? 0:01:34.850 --> 0:01:37.970 I'm gonna say as famous as Obama may be more famous. 0:01:38.570 --> 0:01:44.210 What all right, I'll just tell you Oprah interviewed Oprah 0:01:44.370 --> 0:01:46.850 last week, she interviewed Melinda Gates. 0:01:47.210 --> 0:01:48.530 She's got more money than you. 0:01:49.210 --> 0:01:51.450 Oprah has more money than me. Let's see who else has. 0:01:52.370 --> 0:01:56.570 I would say almost every guest is probably richer than you. 0:01:55.850 --> 0:01:58.210 You know, honestly. So I'm on her website right now, 0:01:58.250 --> 0:02:01.010 on the wild Card website, and I'm schooling, and I'm like, 0:02:01.330 --> 0:02:05.330 I'm looking like Melinda Gates, Oprah Winfrey, Harrison Ford, I 0:02:05.330 --> 0:02:08.010 mean crazy, And then I saw my name and I 0:02:08.010 --> 0:02:11.410 got nervous. I thought, like, that's a mistake. 0:02:11.570 --> 0:02:13.450 Do you think they had someone fall through that week? 0:02:13.770 --> 0:02:15.890 Well, it's funny, okay. So I did ask her that, 0:02:16.049 --> 0:02:19.090 like why am I on the show? Basically? And I thought, 0:02:19.410 --> 0:02:21.450 you know, the answer would be something like, oh, what 0:02:21.450 --> 0:02:24.130 are you talking about? Like of course you you know, 0:02:24.610 --> 0:02:26.810 But she was honest. She was like, well, you know 0:02:26.850 --> 0:02:29.170 how it is, like sometimes you do like a biggie 0:02:29.210 --> 0:02:31.450 and then sometimes you just do a small one or 0:02:31.490 --> 0:02:32.090 something like that. 0:02:32.130 --> 0:02:32.410 I don't know. 0:02:32.490 --> 0:02:34.730 I think she was more compliment than that. 0:02:36.130 --> 0:02:36.450 I don't know. 0:02:36.450 --> 0:02:38.010 If she called me a small sounds like. 0:02:37.970 --> 0:02:40.450 She just wanted to talk to you, which is really nice. 0:02:40.530 --> 0:02:44.650 It is it is what thank you? That is very nice. 0:02:44.850 --> 0:02:48.410 You know, Me and Stevie usually are in on like 0:02:48.610 --> 0:02:51.610 the you know, we're producing the conversations you have. This 0:02:51.770 --> 0:02:54.169 is one that we got to come to just as listeners. 0:02:54.250 --> 0:02:56.730 We just heard the edited version at the end, and 0:02:56.850 --> 0:03:00.290 I really enjoyed it. I felt like it covered a 0:03:00.330 --> 0:03:04.090 lot of territory beyond just the typical like how did 0:03:04.090 --> 0:03:06.090 you come up with the show? Like, like I felt 0:03:06.090 --> 0:03:07.650 like you guys kind of went deep in a really 0:03:07.650 --> 0:03:08.650 interesting way. 0:03:09.290 --> 0:03:11.850 I got an interesting text from my mother in law 0:03:11.890 --> 0:03:13.570 after she had listened to it. She said that she 0:03:13.610 --> 0:03:18.770 had never had anybody express something about life and death 0:03:19.050 --> 0:03:22.650 that she had always felt. WHOA, yeah that's cool. 0:03:22.770 --> 0:03:23.730 Yeah yeah. 0:03:23.850 --> 0:03:27.010 And after I got the text, I told my wife, 0:03:27.290 --> 0:03:34.930 I said, Emily, you married your mother gradually. Yeah. 0:03:34.970 --> 0:03:37.130 So we're going to listen to that episode. 0:03:37.370 --> 0:03:39.090 I think listeners will really enjoy it. 0:03:39.370 --> 0:03:39.930 Yeah, we did. 0:03:40.410 --> 0:03:44.050 And if you don't, will we'll we'll send you a 0:03:44.170 --> 0:03:47.690 check returning your full purchase price. 0:03:48.370 --> 0:03:51.530 If you don't, try try the Oprah episode. You know 0:03:51.690 --> 0:03:52.450 maybe I like that. 0:03:55.530 --> 0:04:02.570 But first, a word from our sponsors, just. 0:04:02.490 --> 0:04:05.370 A heads up. This episode does have some strong language. 0:04:05.970 --> 0:04:08.170 Do you think people can really change? 0:04:08.370 --> 0:04:08.570 Oh? 0:04:08.690 --> 0:04:11.850 Yes, I mean I have to believe that. I mean, 0:04:11.890 --> 0:04:13.930 even if I don't believe it, I have to believe that. 0:04:13.970 --> 0:04:16.890 And I think that's the struggle. It's like the paradox. 0:04:16.930 --> 0:04:20.210 I mean, like we are who we are, but I 0:04:20.210 --> 0:04:23.890 think as long as we're alive, we're able to change. 0:04:24.610 --> 0:04:27.650 I'm Rachel Martin and this is wild Card, the show 0:04:27.690 --> 0:04:33.370 where cards control the conversation. Each week, my guest answers 0:04:33.450 --> 0:04:36.529 questions about their life, questions pulled from a deck of cards. 0:04:36.849 --> 0:04:39.609 They're allowed to skip one question and to flip one 0:04:39.770 --> 0:04:43.089 back on me. My guest this week is Jonathan Goldstein. 0:04:43.450 --> 0:04:47.049 I was writing and no one was buying what I 0:04:47.089 --> 0:04:50.130 was selling. I just couldn't get anywhere, and I just 0:04:50.210 --> 0:04:52.810 kept doing it because I felt compelled to do it, 0:04:52.890 --> 0:04:54.729 like a spider spinning a web. 0:04:55.010 --> 0:04:59.289 Jonathan Goldstein believes enclosure, which is what is massively popular 0:04:59.369 --> 0:05:02.890 podcast Heavyweight, is all about helping people move on from 0:05:02.890 --> 0:05:05.849 some kind of unfinished business in their lives. Maybe that's 0:05:06.169 --> 0:05:09.289 helping someone make amends or to say thank you to 0:05:09.330 --> 0:05:12.370 a stranger, or to help a person turn a page 0:05:12.450 --> 0:05:15.890 on a traumatic experience. And yes, the word heavy is 0:05:16.010 --> 0:05:18.290 in the title, but it doesn't feel that way, in 0:05:18.409 --> 0:05:22.330 large part because Jonathan is very funny, and he's also 0:05:22.450 --> 0:05:25.969 got this lightness about him. He's the kind of guide 0:05:26.450 --> 0:05:28.809 who makes it clear no matter what happens around the 0:05:28.849 --> 0:05:31.970 next bend, he'll be there rooting you on. I am 0:05:31.969 --> 0:05:35.490 so very happy to welcome Jonathan Goldstein to Wild Card. Hi. 0:05:36.089 --> 0:05:38.089 Hi, thank you so much. It would have taken me 0:05:38.369 --> 0:05:41.489 about ten tries to get that, and so much editing. 0:05:43.049 --> 0:05:45.130 I don't believe you, but it is, it's true, and 0:05:45.250 --> 0:05:45.849 yet it's true. 0:05:50.450 --> 0:05:53.210 I'm going to hold up three cards. You pick randly one, 0:05:53.250 --> 0:05:56.969 two or three. Okay, first three cards, First three cards. 0:05:57.130 --> 0:05:59.770 Now, one is on my left. 0:06:00.250 --> 0:06:03.529 I tend to think of one being this on my right. 0:06:03.969 --> 0:06:05.529 Oh yeah, okay, that's my left. 0:06:05.729 --> 0:06:06.089 Okay. 0:06:06.529 --> 0:06:08.610 I'm trying to make this as confusing as possible for 0:06:08.609 --> 0:06:13.729 perfect because I'm hoping, I guess my my subconscious wish 0:06:13.770 --> 0:06:15.009 is that you're just going to say, you know what, 0:06:16.330 --> 0:06:21.529 forget it, We're gonna do a rerun this week. Okay, sorry, 0:06:21.529 --> 0:06:23.609 it doesn't matter, you know what. I get the impression, 0:06:23.729 --> 0:06:26.729 as a as a child magician, that you're trying to 0:06:26.770 --> 0:06:29.370 force the number two cards. It's poked out a little 0:06:29.409 --> 0:06:33.249 bit more. Yeah, yeah, Okay, now you're forcing the one 0:06:33.250 --> 0:06:37.449 in the two. I just I just want to please you. 0:06:37.570 --> 0:06:39.049 I'll take I'll take the number two. 0:06:40.489 --> 0:06:46.409 I'm not pushing, I promise, Although I do like this question. Okay, 0:06:46.489 --> 0:06:50.450 look what happened there? Okay, what's an ordinary place that 0:06:50.489 --> 0:06:53.210 feels extraordinary to you because of what happened there? 0:06:57.250 --> 0:06:59.050 Okay. You see, it's very difficult for me to talk 0:06:59.089 --> 0:07:03.449 about places because I I'm not very place aware. Oh. 0:07:03.770 --> 0:07:06.289 I live so much of my life up in my head. 0:07:08.489 --> 0:07:12.050 For many years, I thought of it as like internal 0:07:12.250 --> 0:07:15.689 and then like through therapy, I've begun to see it 0:07:15.730 --> 0:07:21.210 as disassociative. Possibly, I will say broadly, movie theaters I 0:07:21.250 --> 0:07:25.210 are kind of like I think Pauline Kle called them 0:07:25.250 --> 0:07:27.250 like her church, and I think that's a little bit 0:07:27.290 --> 0:07:30.410 the way that I feel about movie theaters. Yeah, and 0:07:30.450 --> 0:07:34.090 there's one particular. I live in Minnesota, Minneapolis, and there's 0:07:34.090 --> 0:07:38.930 an old mid century theater that used to be walking 0:07:38.970 --> 0:07:40.769 distance from my house, and I would just go see 0:07:40.810 --> 0:07:43.809 anything that was playing there and always sit way way 0:07:43.810 --> 0:07:46.050 way back in the back row because I like to 0:07:46.050 --> 0:07:50.650 take it all in by yourself, by myself. Yeah, it 0:07:50.690 --> 0:07:53.050 had I'd like going there with people, but I you know, 0:07:53.410 --> 0:07:55.370 if I had my drothers, it was by myself, and 0:07:55.410 --> 0:08:02.530 that just felt like my place in the dark, looking 0:08:02.610 --> 0:08:06.610 up at this big screen, feeling like a baby being 0:08:06.650 --> 0:08:10.410 held by somebody. You know. Maybe that's a part of it. 0:08:10.489 --> 0:08:15.210 I don't know what was the extraordinary part of that experience. 0:08:15.690 --> 0:08:20.610 I think this particular theater because it's mid century. I 0:08:20.690 --> 0:08:23.290 had the experience last Christmas of going to see It's 0:08:23.330 --> 0:08:27.210 a Wonderful Life there and I found it to be 0:08:27.290 --> 0:08:34.050 a very emotional experience. Like it it's just I mean, 0:08:34.090 --> 0:08:38.370 it's just a room. But I don't know, all of 0:08:38.370 --> 0:08:40.530 this stuff sounds very corny. I mean, my father used 0:08:40.570 --> 0:08:43.210 to watch these black and white movies and refer to 0:08:43.250 --> 0:08:47.330 it as like a time machine, and it is kind 0:08:47.370 --> 0:08:53.290 of like that. There is this feeling of the past 0:08:53.370 --> 0:08:56.850 kind of erasing, and you're kind of existing in all 0:08:56.890 --> 0:09:02.770 times at once. Beyond that, it's probably just pretty banal. 0:09:03.850 --> 0:09:10.290 It just yeah, there's just something extraordinary about in this 0:09:10.370 --> 0:09:12.810 day and age being able to kind of like turn 0:09:12.850 --> 0:09:14.330 your phone off and shut out the world for a 0:09:14.370 --> 0:09:15.170 couple of hours. 0:09:15.370 --> 0:09:20.490 I mean, thank God, hold on, there's one sound on 0:09:20.570 --> 0:09:22.610 here I need to make sure goes away. 0:09:23.770 --> 0:09:28.290 Is it my voice? You figured out the one thing 0:09:28.290 --> 0:09:29.770 that's dragging down this podcast? 0:09:33.010 --> 0:09:34.410 Okay, three more cards. 0:09:34.610 --> 0:09:35.890 I'll take one this time. 0:09:37.810 --> 0:09:40.890 Were you intimidated or excited about leaving your parents' house? 0:09:42.970 --> 0:09:47.330 Leaving my parents' house? I have to say, And you know, 0:09:47.410 --> 0:09:49.210 and this is kind of like you just don't know 0:09:49.210 --> 0:09:51.370 what you don't know back then, But I was nothing 0:09:51.410 --> 0:09:55.770 but excited. I didn't enjoy my childhood very much, and 0:09:55.810 --> 0:10:00.929 the idea of being able to make my own rules 0:10:02.050 --> 0:10:05.970 was very exciting. And I remember when I I harken 0:10:06.050 --> 0:10:07.410 back to it now that I got a kid, I 0:10:07.450 --> 0:10:09.570 think about how sad my mother was. She was sitting 0:10:09.570 --> 0:10:13.450 on the edge of my bed and yelling at me 0:10:13.730 --> 0:10:17.170 for what she called dismantling my room, for the stuff 0:10:17.210 --> 0:10:19.450 that I was taking, you know, And all I was 0:10:19.490 --> 0:10:21.690 taking was these milk rates. I didn't even have like 0:10:21.730 --> 0:10:23.890 a bookshelf. It was just like I kept my books 0:10:23.930 --> 0:10:25.930 and stuff in milk crates. And she was like very 0:10:26.010 --> 0:10:29.730 upset that I was taking them. And I remember I 0:10:29.770 --> 0:10:34.570 wore cowboy boots, which were a very impractical thing to 0:10:34.650 --> 0:10:38.730 wear in the summer when you're moving boxes. But there 0:10:38.770 --> 0:10:43.130 was something about it that felt very romantic. I had 0:10:43.170 --> 0:10:45.650 these cowboy boots that I only wore like once a year. Yeah, 0:10:45.690 --> 0:10:48.130 and it felt like that was an occasion for the 0:10:48.170 --> 0:10:50.010 cowboy boots, even though they were slippery. 0:10:50.410 --> 0:10:52.690 Where were you going to? Where were you moving from 0:10:52.730 --> 0:10:52.970 and to? 0:10:53.330 --> 0:10:55.330 So I was living in Montreal, That's where I grew up, 0:10:55.370 --> 0:10:57.370 and I was moving to a very cheap part of 0:10:57.410 --> 0:10:59.930 town called Pointing Charles. 0:11:01.570 --> 0:11:01.770 Yeah. 0:11:01.810 --> 0:11:03.290 It was probably no more than like a half an 0:11:03.290 --> 0:11:04.010 hour car drive. 0:11:04.370 --> 0:11:06.210 Yeah, but it can be a whole world away. 0:11:06.970 --> 0:11:12.690 Yeah, it felt great. There was a five dollars liter 0:11:12.850 --> 0:11:16.090 of apple wine that they sold at the corner store, 0:11:17.130 --> 0:11:21.410 and there was all these like dollar ninety nine breakfast places. 0:11:22.650 --> 0:11:23.970 It was like nineteen thirty four. 0:11:24.210 --> 0:11:29.130 It was yeah, back, this is back in the thirties. Yeah. 0:11:29.450 --> 0:11:33.650 I could listen to all the jazz music I wanted. Yeah, No, 0:11:33.730 --> 0:11:35.410 I don't know. It was just yeah, it was just 0:11:35.490 --> 0:11:40.890 the feeling of being free. It really Yeah, it felt 0:11:40.930 --> 0:11:41.530 it felt free. 0:11:42.090 --> 0:11:48.850 Yeah, last one in this round one, two or three? 0:11:49.130 --> 0:11:49.970 I guess three. 0:11:50.730 --> 0:11:53.850 Oh, I feel like I'm putting all these place questions 0:11:54.330 --> 0:11:57.970 to you. What details do you remember about your childhood. 0:11:57.570 --> 0:12:05.490 Bedroom, the milk crate, the wall to wall posters of 0:12:05.970 --> 0:12:10.410 David Bowie. Nice, very big David Bowie fan. To this day, 0:12:10.490 --> 0:12:12.010 my father will call me up on the phone if 0:12:12.090 --> 0:12:15.050 David Bowie's on TV and I'll say, oh, your buddy's 0:12:15.050 --> 0:12:19.250 on TV. He just didn't get it. 0:12:21.210 --> 0:12:23.890 That he knows that you like him, and he was 0:12:23.930 --> 0:12:25.010 like trying to connect with you. 0:12:25.490 --> 0:12:30.490 Yeah. Yeah, just a lot of like pictures taken out 0:12:30.570 --> 0:12:37.130 of magazines and newspapers. And I don't it must still 0:12:37.130 --> 0:12:38.850 be the same way for kids, But it was like 0:12:40.410 --> 0:12:43.890 your whole personality was splayed across your bedroom walls. Like 0:12:43.970 --> 0:12:46.090 if it wasn't on your bedroom wall, then you weren't 0:12:46.490 --> 0:12:49.130 in the world properly. You know, you had to lead 0:12:49.170 --> 0:12:52.530 with all of these things on your wall. I had 0:12:52.570 --> 0:12:56.490 this little card table that with a type with an 0:12:56.530 --> 0:12:58.850 electric typewriter that I wrote on. 0:12:59.610 --> 0:13:00.770 What were you writing at the time? 0:13:02.370 --> 0:13:07.570 Such junk. I remember when I applied into the creative 0:13:07.570 --> 0:13:13.570 writing program at the University in Montreal Concordia with such 0:13:13.650 --> 0:13:17.010 high hopes because from a very young age I was 0:13:17.010 --> 0:13:24.370 always writing and making plays and making radio plays and 0:13:24.490 --> 0:13:27.850 you know, forcing my friends into performing in them. And 0:13:27.930 --> 0:13:31.290 I applied put together what I thought was my best work, 0:13:31.650 --> 0:13:34.690 and I applied to this creative writing program and the guy, 0:13:34.890 --> 0:13:38.450 the professor running the program rejected me. And I couldn't 0:13:38.490 --> 0:13:40.410 understand why. And I made a meeting with him, and 0:13:40.810 --> 0:13:43.090 he said that someone that wrote the way that I 0:13:43.130 --> 0:13:46.090 did needed a therapist more than they needed a creative 0:13:46.090 --> 0:13:49.370 writing program, which was probably true, but was still like 0:13:49.370 --> 0:13:53.010 a very heavy thing to hear at like eighteen, you. 0:13:52.970 --> 0:13:54.410 Know, not helpful guidance. 0:13:54.890 --> 0:13:56.930 But it was all like nuts. I mean, like young 0:13:56.970 --> 0:13:59.650 men are, or at least me and my friends, I 0:13:59.690 --> 0:14:05.090 mean we were just nuts. We were just really pushing 0:14:05.130 --> 0:14:08.570 boundaries and you know, loved Hunter S. Thompson and Jack Kerouac. 0:14:09.290 --> 0:14:12.890 There's nothing, no offense, but there's nothing extraordinary about that. 0:14:12.890 --> 0:14:16.490 That's that doesn't signal depression. That's just being an angstret No. 0:14:16.530 --> 0:14:19.250 I was just depressed on top of that. Yeah, that 0:14:19.330 --> 0:14:22.970 was that was just a whole other side project. Yeah, 0:14:23.730 --> 0:14:28.850 various dark places, you know, very caught up in like 0:14:28.930 --> 0:14:33.930 what's it all about? I had, like during my teen years, 0:14:33.970 --> 0:14:43.130 like a foray into becoming religious and then kind of 0:14:43.210 --> 0:14:45.930 losing my faith and feeling that that brought on a 0:14:46.010 --> 0:14:50.290 really heavy depression. I wanted to believe and I just 0:14:50.530 --> 0:14:56.570 couldn't figure my way into it. And yeah, just like 0:14:56.730 --> 0:14:58.570 very from a very young age is very caught up 0:14:58.570 --> 0:15:01.290 in the big questions, I guess, and not that that's 0:15:01.370 --> 0:15:06.370 necessarily a formula for depression, but for me, I don't know, 0:15:06.410 --> 0:15:09.610 there was something very dire and desperate about it. Remember 0:15:09.850 --> 0:15:12.690 asking my father like at a like at a very 0:15:12.770 --> 0:15:16.210 very young age, like where God came from? And that 0:15:16.330 --> 0:15:19.090 feeling like a very basic question because God was given, 0:15:19.170 --> 0:15:21.050 but like, okay, so then where does God come from? 0:15:21.050 --> 0:15:22.810 And I remember him telling me that I should look 0:15:22.810 --> 0:15:27.810 it up, and I had these childs encyclopedia set and 0:15:28.050 --> 0:15:28.850 looking up. 0:15:29.410 --> 0:15:30.570 What did you look at God? 0:15:30.610 --> 0:15:33.930 And under g yeah, like God, And like I thought, oh, well, 0:15:33.970 --> 0:15:35.290 I'm going to get to the bottom of this in 0:15:35.290 --> 0:15:39.490 two seconds. Everybody wanted to hear this, and it wasn't. 0:15:39.890 --> 0:15:42.730 I remember like looking at the Bible and thinking like, oh, 0:15:42.770 --> 0:15:46.290 it must be before Genesis, like before but you know, 0:15:46.330 --> 0:15:50.490 there's like no preface, there's no you know, it just 0:15:50.530 --> 0:15:54.410 starts with the big bang and that's it. But I 0:15:54.410 --> 0:15:57.330 don't know, it was probably also more banal, like I 0:15:57.410 --> 0:15:59.890 probably couldn't meet any girls, you know. 0:16:02.170 --> 0:16:04.770 Yeah, that's a big existential stew of things. 0:16:05.010 --> 0:16:10.850 Yeah, yeah, very profound, very yeah. Well Schopenhower asks, is 0:16:10.850 --> 0:16:11.330 that a word? 0:16:11.450 --> 0:16:11.850 Sure? 0:16:12.370 --> 0:16:15.850 Now, yeah, yeah, but I think dealing with that the 0:16:15.970 --> 0:16:19.450 uncertainty of life at that end, but. 0:16:19.450 --> 0:16:20.970 I couldn't see. Yeah, but I know, you know, it's 0:16:20.970 --> 0:16:23.130 still something that I struggle with. I mean, I just 0:16:23.170 --> 0:16:27.010 want to really let go and and give myself over 0:16:27.130 --> 0:16:31.370 to life. But I don't know, there's always just been 0:16:31.370 --> 0:16:36.410 this feeling of like if you're not totally invested in it, 0:16:36.410 --> 0:16:38.610 it'll make death easier. You know, like if you live 0:16:38.650 --> 0:16:43.570 your life as though like you're kind of you know, 0:16:43.650 --> 0:16:46.690 here's life and here's death, and they kind of are 0:16:46.730 --> 0:16:49.210 side by side, adjacent to one another on a shelf, 0:16:49.890 --> 0:16:56.530 it'll be more of a lateral move. Good night, folks, 0:16:56.730 --> 0:16:58.890 it's not too it's not too late to like run 0:16:58.930 --> 0:16:59.490 the rerun. 0:17:03.290 --> 0:17:06.290 I'm just trying to understand it. It means putting as 0:17:06.369 --> 0:17:10.290 much effort into the thinking about death as the thinking 0:17:10.290 --> 0:17:13.850 about life, and they are equal experiences, and so then 0:17:13.889 --> 0:17:14.850 it's a lateral. 0:17:14.689 --> 0:17:18.170 Yeah, if you're sort of like braced for death from 0:17:18.169 --> 0:17:22.090 a young age, you know, if you don't fully you know, 0:17:22.209 --> 0:17:26.649 throw yourself into the whole life thing. Then when the 0:17:26.689 --> 0:17:28.609 carpet is yanked out from under you, you're going to 0:17:28.649 --> 0:17:29.609 be braced for your fall. 0:17:29.770 --> 0:17:31.969 No, I get it. I like do this in my 0:17:32.050 --> 0:17:36.889 own mind. I am the worst case scenario person. It 0:17:36.970 --> 0:17:38.609 is how I live My life is to prepare for 0:17:38.649 --> 0:17:42.770 the worst things, and so I practice not being around anymore. 0:17:42.770 --> 0:17:43.369 It's dark. 0:17:43.889 --> 0:17:46.649 But and you don't want to model that for your No, I. 0:17:46.530 --> 0:17:49.330 Have two of them. I don't think that's a great 0:17:49.330 --> 0:17:51.210 way to live. But it actually doesn't bring me down. 0:17:51.290 --> 0:17:54.090 I don't get bummed about it. It just go there 0:17:54.129 --> 0:17:58.009 for a little bit. I try it on, and then 0:17:58.010 --> 0:18:00.330 I come back and I'm like, everyone was okay. Everyone 0:18:00.490 --> 0:18:03.730 when I was gone in my imaginary death, everyone grieved 0:18:03.770 --> 0:18:08.090 and then they lived beautiful lives and then it was fine. 0:18:08.810 --> 0:18:11.929 Oh that's wonderful. So you're thinking about your own absence 0:18:12.770 --> 0:18:17.409 from the perspective of those you love, Yeah, I guess 0:18:16.649 --> 0:18:21.489 that's the mark of a superior human being. That's not 0:18:21.570 --> 0:18:24.329 how I was thinking about it. I was thinking more, 0:18:24.409 --> 0:18:27.170 fuck all, y'all. No, no, no, I'm just kidding. 0:18:46.530 --> 0:18:52.330 Let's talk about your show for a few minutes, because 0:18:52.770 --> 0:18:54.850 it is a wonderful thing. It is a wonderful thing 0:18:54.850 --> 0:18:55.449 that you have made. 0:18:55.570 --> 0:18:55.969 Thank you. 0:18:56.090 --> 0:19:00.369 Have you wait been nine years? Over nine years? 0:19:00.409 --> 0:19:02.649 Yeah, they were doing their ninth season. 0:19:02.810 --> 0:19:05.330 Yeah, there was a little break the show was cancel 0:19:05.409 --> 0:19:10.209 was yeah, at the end of twenty twenty three, and 0:19:10.250 --> 0:19:15.530 then it found new life and it's as a listener, 0:19:15.850 --> 0:19:19.049 I think this is a wonderful thing. I'm sure when 0:19:19.090 --> 0:19:21.609 it was canceled you were like, yeah, maybe maybe I'm 0:19:21.609 --> 0:19:24.010 going to do something else, lean into my writing and 0:19:24.689 --> 0:19:28.450 you know, but but you were given this other shot. 0:19:29.250 --> 0:19:30.810 What do you love about making this show? 0:19:32.570 --> 0:19:35.330 Well, the simplest is that I like having a job. 0:19:36.169 --> 0:19:38.609 I found out when the show was canceled that I 0:19:38.730 --> 0:19:41.529 wasn't very good at not having a job. I had 0:19:41.570 --> 0:19:43.889 been kind of on various deadlines, Like before this, I 0:19:43.889 --> 0:19:47.649 had a show in Canada on the CBC for eleven years. 0:19:47.730 --> 0:19:51.610 It had been just kind of like twenty years of deadlines. 0:19:52.530 --> 0:19:56.969 This is wiretap right wire type. Yeah, that's right. I 0:19:57.010 --> 0:20:00.890 found not having a job difficult, and being back at 0:20:00.929 --> 0:20:03.369 it has given me a renewed appreciation. But I love 0:20:03.810 --> 0:20:09.249 I think I love it is a way from me 0:20:09.449 --> 0:20:17.489 to feel things and live, interact with people, and life 0:20:17.770 --> 0:20:21.649 in a way that for me is preferred. I guess 0:20:21.770 --> 0:20:26.369 there's a certain kind of safety about being alone in 0:20:26.409 --> 0:20:29.490 the attics studio a lot of the time and thinking 0:20:29.530 --> 0:20:31.929 things through in a way that I can't in real time. 0:20:32.250 --> 0:20:34.369 I don't feel like I'm great in real time. 0:20:34.970 --> 0:20:36.850 We should just take a second and explain to people 0:20:36.889 --> 0:20:39.330 who haven't heard the show. I mean I nodded to 0:20:39.369 --> 0:20:42.570 it a little bit in the intro, but you really 0:20:42.609 --> 0:20:46.169 are getting into very intimate parts of people's lives. You're 0:20:46.250 --> 0:20:53.570 helping them through specific regrets and longing and helping them 0:20:53.649 --> 0:20:58.169 find closure, like someone who's you know, did something to 0:20:58.209 --> 0:21:02.449 someone wronged them twenty thirty years ago. More. You literally 0:21:02.530 --> 0:21:07.649 go find that person for them and help them sometimes 0:21:08.050 --> 0:21:12.370 come confront them and have a one on one exchange. 0:21:12.369 --> 0:21:14.529 Sometimes you don't find the person, but somehow through the 0:21:14.609 --> 0:21:18.369 journey they've been able to understand their life in a 0:21:18.409 --> 0:21:22.450 more intimate way. I mean, it's very emotionally intense work. 0:21:22.490 --> 0:21:25.010 I mean, you say you do this work in part 0:21:25.090 --> 0:21:28.529 just to feel things. That's a lot of feelings, Jonathan, Like, 0:21:28.570 --> 0:21:34.850 it's a lot of living that you are You're navigating 0:21:34.970 --> 0:21:37.170 through other people's experience. 0:21:37.730 --> 0:21:45.050 Yeah, Yeah, there's definitely, like you say closure, I think 0:21:45.129 --> 0:21:47.289 like that is. Yeah, that is always kind of like 0:21:47.369 --> 0:21:50.330 the imaginary finish line. I don't think most of the 0:21:50.369 --> 0:21:53.330 episodes get there, but it is true what you also 0:21:53.369 --> 0:21:57.090 say about the process of getting there, and sometimes it's 0:21:57.689 --> 0:22:00.050 the thing that people are searching for is somewhat of 0:22:00.050 --> 0:22:04.330 a mcguffin. Like there was one episode called Scott where 0:22:04.810 --> 0:22:10.530 this former heroin addict had sold all of like many 0:22:10.609 --> 0:22:13.809 prize possessions that belonged to his father, among which was 0:22:13.889 --> 0:22:18.770 this gun that his grandfather, his father's father had taken 0:22:18.810 --> 0:22:21.810 off a Nazi in World War Two, and he had 0:22:21.850 --> 0:22:27.369 sold this this gun to a pawn chop to buy 0:22:27.449 --> 0:22:29.810 drugs and he wanted to get the gun back and 0:22:29.889 --> 0:22:31.529 he felt like he owed it to his father and 0:22:32.490 --> 0:22:35.449 spoiler alert, he gets the gun after I mean, I 0:22:35.490 --> 0:22:37.689 didn't think we were ever going to find this gun again. 0:22:38.209 --> 0:22:41.090 It might have taken him a couple of years. We 0:22:41.209 --> 0:22:43.489 finally got it. He gives it to his dad and 0:22:43.530 --> 0:22:48.889 his dad's like, oh, thank you, you know, and it's 0:22:48.970 --> 0:22:51.649 just sort of like Jesus Christ, like that's not going 0:22:51.689 --> 0:22:54.410 to make a very satisfying end. It is the closure 0:22:54.490 --> 0:22:57.210 that we thought we wanted. But then it turns out 0:22:57.250 --> 0:22:59.409 that the conversation he ends up having with his father, 0:23:00.850 --> 0:23:04.010 the gun is merely a pass key that allows us 0:23:04.050 --> 0:23:09.209 into this emotional space where his dad is able to 0:23:09.250 --> 0:23:11.609 talk about his feelings about his dad and that gun, 0:23:11.689 --> 0:23:15.850 which he never liked, and he had mixed feelings about 0:23:15.889 --> 0:23:20.729 his own father, And it ends up getting to this 0:23:20.810 --> 0:23:22.850 point where the dad's able to say to him like, 0:23:22.970 --> 0:23:25.770 I don't really give a shit about the gun. I 0:23:25.810 --> 0:23:28.850 was afraid of losing you, and I'm so glad to 0:23:28.929 --> 0:23:30.850