WEBVTT - Chesa Boudin on Progressive Prosecuting in San Francisco 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:07.720 Hi, I'm Ethan Edelman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 0:00:07.760 --> 0:00:11.600 of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:15.040 show where we talk about all things drugs. But any 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:18.760 views expressed here do not represent those of my Heart Media, 0:00:18.880 --> 0:00:23.599 Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, as an 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:26.840 inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not even 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:31.120 represent my own and nothing contained in this show should 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:34.040 be used as medical advice or encouragement to use any 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:46.360 type of drugs. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. Our guest today is 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:53.280 Chasa Boudin. Chasa was elected the District Attorney of San 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:58.000 Francisco in late twenty nineteen, running out of, you know, 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:02.760 basically a progressive prosecutor's agenda, and served there for about 0:01:02.840 --> 0:01:05.920 two and a half years, and then was the subject 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.240 of a well financed and well coordinated recall campaign in 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.400 California it's one of the states where you can recall politicians, 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.600 doesn't happen in most states, and landed up losing that. 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.160 So he is now the x d A. So, Chasa, 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.120 I really appreciate you're getting on with me now and 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.520 hope this is a good moment when you're not running anything, 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.240 not in office, to be well be able to talk 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.400 as freely as possible about all sorts of criminal justice issues. Absolutely, 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:33.319 I'm happy to be with you, Ethan, and I've enjoyed 0:01:33.560 --> 0:01:36.720 listening to your pod in the past and honored to 0:01:36.760 --> 0:01:39.800 be a guest on the show. So Chisa, I mean, 0:01:39.959 --> 0:01:42.160 let me get start off by asking you this. You 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:46.200 came with a very strong reformist perspective. You were working 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.400 in the public Defender's office. Why was it that you 0:01:49.520 --> 0:01:51.600 decided to throw your hat in the ring and actually 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:55.440 run for, you know, the chief prosecutor job in San 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.080 Francisco when that would be a job that involve putting 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.840 people behind bars, as I imagine we'll talk about. I 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.080 grew up visiting my own parents in prison. My dad 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.239 served forty years before he was ultimately released. My mom 0:02:08.280 --> 0:02:12.080 did twenty two years, and though I don't remember their arrest, 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:14.800 I was too little. My earliest memories are waiting in 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.560 lines at prison gates to go through metal detectors and 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:21.400 to get searched, just to be able to see my parents, 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.240 just to be able to give them hugs, and so 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.040 as long as I can remember, I've been impacted by 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:32.160 and thinking about this country's response to crime and how 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.960 we meet out punishment and what rehabilitation means. And I've 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:39.560 been acutely aware of the tremendous carnage that the war 0:02:39.639 --> 0:02:42.840 on drugs has left in its wake. I've been actively 0:02:42.960 --> 0:02:47.440 witnessing the racial disparities that our criminal legal system amplifies. 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:50.720 And when I went to law school, I wanted to 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.240 try to fight to change that system, the system that 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:56.239 had done so little to invest in victims, and it 0:02:56.440 --> 0:03:00.280 was so disinterested in re entry and rehabilitation and was 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:03.959 so focused on punishment in ways that we're not making 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.440 our communities safer. And at the time I went to 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:10.720 law school, UM prosecutors were really part of the problem. 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:14.640 They were a driving force in mass incarceration, in what 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.799 had led the United States to be the country that 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:22.000 embarrassingly leads the world in locking people up. And so 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.440 I became a public defender of after law school. And 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.840 it was only in that context that UM I saw 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.960 professionally what I'd experienced personally my whole life. And I 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:35.240 looked around the country and was witnessing a national movement 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:40.480 that recognized we can build safety through decarceration and that 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.640 prosecutors are a key part of that movement. And it 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.080 was in that context that I decided to run for 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.040 San Francisco District Attorney. I say, you know, yeah, we 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:53.080 just mentioned your parents for our listeners. Chases mother was 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:56.480 Cathy Budan and his father David Gilbert, and they were 0:03:56.640 --> 0:03:59.920 part of radical, militant left wing organization of all the 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.560 weather Underground. And on one day when Chase was just 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.720 a tie Um landed up being connected with members of 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:11.120 the Black Liberation Army driving a getaway car when an 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.120 operation happened where two police officers and a BRINX guard 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.200 were killed. And so, as he said, his parents were 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.040 sentenced and he was then adopted. I mean his legal 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.760 guardians were two other well known members of the Weatherman Underground, 0:04:24.800 --> 0:04:27.680 Bill Ayres and Bernardine Dort. So he comes from quite 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:31.080 distinguished what might be called radical royalty. In fact, his grandfather, 0:04:31.160 --> 0:04:35.320 Leonard Buddan, was the civil rights and UH civil liberties 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:39.400 activists who represented Daniel Ellsberg in the Depending on Paper's case. 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.760 So I have to say there are probably a few 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.479 other names or families that are as linked to the 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:48.680 kind of radical left and contemporary American politics as yours. Well, 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.680 I I didn't live through that whole history, but as 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:54.279 you say, um, I have a lot of family members 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:58.440 who have been actively involved in politics and in different ways, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:03.120 and student organizing and in litigating. And we could go 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:07.680 back even further. My grandfather's uncle, Louis Boudin wrote a 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:12.960 number of really important scholarly works and books criticizing the 0:05:13.000 --> 0:05:17.279 Supreme Court's refusal in the nineteen thirties to accept the 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:19.799 New Deal and the ways in which the Supreme Court 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:25.520 was striking down the federal legislative initiative aimed at addressing 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:28.920 the Great Depression. So yeah, we we have a lot 0:05:28.920 --> 0:05:30.560 of lawyers and scholars in the family, and a lot 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.000 of people who have been very critically involved in responding 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:39.159 to fascism and imperialism and racism. And I'm certainly proud 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.120 to have learned from some of the mistakes made along 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.240 the way, and also to share a commitment to fighting 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:47.200 to make the world a better place. Now. Were your 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:51.920 parents incarcerated in New York State prisons? Yes, both Kathy 0:05:51.960 --> 0:05:54.960 and David served the entirety of their prison sentences in 0:05:55.000 --> 0:05:58.400 New York State correctional facilities, and so As I recall, 0:05:58.600 --> 0:06:02.240 in the late nineties early nine New York State was 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.320 either first or second among all the states in the 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.400 country in terms of the proportion of people incarcerated for 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:10.559 drug law violations. In fact, I think at one point 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.240 in New York it came close to fifty of all 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.240 new commitments. So I imagine when you went to visit 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:21.000 your parents, basically you must have been surrounded by families 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:24.440 visiting people who were getting locked up, oftentimes on non violent, 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:28.320 low level drug offenses, the notorious Rockefeller drug laws. Yeah, 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:32.400 I vivid memories of talking to my mother, and you know, 0:06:32.400 --> 0:06:36.120 of course, I remember many of the women in my 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:41.040 mother's prison were there serving time for essentially standing up 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:44.080 for themselves in the face of horrific sexual violence and 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:48.840 domestic violence. But increasingly over the years it was people 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:50.960 who were casualties of the War on drugs. And I 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:55.599 remember one woman in particular who was one of my 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:58.279 mother's best friends in prison and helped teach my mother 0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.920 Spanish and inspired me to go to Latin America and 0:07:01.000 --> 0:07:04.440 learned Spanish. And she was there for many, many, many 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:07.600 years because of the role she played as a low 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:11.040 level mule for a bigger drug cartel. Another woman, the 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:14.000 mother of a close friend of mine who I became 0:07:14.040 --> 0:07:16.800 friends within the prison visiting room, was serving a many 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:19.960 decades long sentence under the Rockefeller drug laws. All of 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:23.640 these folks had no violence, no history of violence, no weapons, 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:28.320 and yet we're filling jails and prisons across New York State. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:31.240 I mean, with your mom in the Bedford Hills prisons 0:07:31.320 --> 0:07:35.040 in New York exactly right, Bedford Hills at the time, 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.239 maybe still today, but throughout her tenure there was the 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.600 only maximum security prison for women in New York State, 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:46.720 and so anyone considered maximum security um and it might 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:51.080 seem odd to folks who aren't familiar with the American 0:07:51.120 --> 0:07:54.800 criminal legal system, but my mother was there serving a 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:59.080 sentence for the most serious offense on the books. She 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.120 had participated it in an armed robbery that left three men, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:05.600 two of them police officers, dead, and though she wasn't 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.120 personally armed and didn't personally hurt anybody, she was ultimately 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.800 convicted of murder, and she was in a prison that 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:15.679 was designed for people who were maximum security. Makes sense, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.320 given her charges and the violence in her case, for 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.520 her to have been in that prison, certainly at the 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:25.440 outset of her commitment. But ask yourself, why would a 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:29.400 maximum security prison be filled with women serving as long 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:33.240 or longer in some instances for entirely non violent drug 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.360 related offenses. So I mean your you know, your background 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:40.440 is impressive. I mean Yale Road scholar, Yale Law School. 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.680 You clerked for Judge Chuck Bryer, the little brother of 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:47.959 the Justice Stephen Bryer, became a public defender, and then 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.640 you get elected, what in your late thirties, to be 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:55.200 the District Attorney of San Francisco. I remember at the time, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:57.120 and I had people close to me who were working 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:01.760 closely with you, and everybody was enormously excited. Did you anticipate, 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.800 um some of the extent of the backlash that would happen? 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.120 I remember, I think somebody like set up a website 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.240 like the day after you were elected recall Chasy Bludan, 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.480 before you've even been inaugurated. But did you anticipate how 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.559 significant and serious this backlash would be? Certainly we expected 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.920 pushback and backlash, and folks like Kim Fox and Larry 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:27.280 Krasner and George Gascon and others who are part of 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:31.360 this national movement across the country Rachel Rowlins Marylyn Mosby 0:09:31.800 --> 0:09:34.600 had given me fair warning after I was elected that 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:36.480 I would expect this kind of thing. But but no, 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.360 there's no way until you've lived it and experienced it 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.319 that you could be fully prepared for the intensity and 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:47.920 the vitriol and the dishonesty in the attacks. You know, 0:09:48.160 --> 0:09:50.640 it would be great if we could have honest policy 0:09:50.679 --> 0:09:56.400 discussions about climate change, or public schools or the drug war, 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.679 and we could agree to disagree on some points. We 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:02.040 could look at data, and we could let policy and 0:10:02.080 --> 0:10:07.679 practice and government institutions be driven by honest, nuanced conversations. 0:10:07.800 --> 0:10:10.599 That is not the way that the world works today, 0:10:10.640 --> 0:10:13.880 if ever, and instead we are seeing a tremendous amount 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:19.440 of intentional misinformation, vitriolic attacks. Um, it's a very intentional 0:10:19.480 --> 0:10:24.959 and explicit and frankly successful part of the broader republican playbook. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.200 And we saw Donald Trump and his allies us it 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.920 extremely effectively for years, and we see it even in 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:35.720 deep blue cities like San Francisco as a key part 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.320 of the political discourse and the way in which public 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.439 perception is shaped about issues like drugs. Now, of course, 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:46.920 you win office in late nineteen and just a few 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.559 months later, COVID happens, and the kind of the world 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.520 is in this bizarre, confused state. People are off the 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:56.880 streets in many cities, including my home in New York. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.480 You see, you know, a disproportion number that people are 0:10:59.480 --> 0:11:01.400 out in the street to the time where people suffering 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.640 from mental illness, people are homeless, I mean, a lot 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.439 of people not feeling safe anymore walking around. This obviously 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.319 has happening in San Francisco, and some months later the 0:11:10.400 --> 0:11:13.960 killing of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter protests 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.560 and some of the violence that you know happened during 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.200 that time as well. And then of course you're setting 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:21.920 up and running an office when all of a sudden, 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.520 nobody's coming into the office anymore, and you're all online. 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:28.520 So what were those first three four or five months 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:31.400 like for you? And I was elected in November, I 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:36.280 wasn't sworn into office until January, almost exactly two months 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.199 after I was sworn in um the mayor declared a 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.600 state of emergency and essentially shut down the city, and 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:45.160 San Francisco has been one of the slowest cities in 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.800 the country to reopen. People are still working remotely in 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:51.360 higher proportions than in almost any other big city, and 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:55.160 so it's had a dramatic impact on our courts. Are 0:11:55.200 --> 0:11:59.760 courthouse remains partially closed, we never fully reopened, We never 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:04.280 got back to full capacity for trying cases. The impact 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:09.000 of COVID nineteen and the shutdown on crime trends was 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.720 far more dramatic and long lasting than we initially anticipated. 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.959 UM And, as you pointed out, trying to run an office, 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:19.320 trying to shape the culture of an office, trying to 0:12:19.320 --> 0:12:22.800 do training, trying to build trust and increase moral in 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:27.320 an office when you're doing everything over zoom, including new 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:31.199 job interviews and orientations for people you're on boarding, was 0:12:31.240 --> 0:12:36.160 tremendously challenging. And there's no question that it was a huge, 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:40.400 huge obstacle to my ability to build relationships with and 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:44.400 trust with some of the constituencies in San Francisco who 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.840 maybe hadn't supported my election in the first place, but 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.960 in principle agree with the policies we were implementing UM, 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:54.920 But we just didn't have any opportunity to get face 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.640 to face in the same room with a lot of 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.160 people across the city because of the pandemic. Well, I'm curious, 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:03.400 I mean you mentioned before Larry Krasny, or the district 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.280 attorney in Philadelphia who ran on a progressive agenda and 0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:08.680 they got re elected. And I had him as a 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:12.040 guest on Psychoactive last year, and I'm wondering, you know, 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:14.280 in your office like his, part of what happened was 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:17.440 tons of the old time prosecutors in the office left 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.560 or were fired by you know him or by you. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.240 And meanwhile a number of people come in from the 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.600 public defender's office where you had worked before. I mean, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:28.920 there must have been a massive culture clash when that 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.520 sort of thing happens. So can you describe what that 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:35.760 was like? What you have to remember is that people 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.079 who have spent five or ten or twenty five years 0:13:39.120 --> 0:13:43.760 of their lives working as district attorneys in a traditional 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:49.760 carstoral prosecutor's office, the office that wholeheartedly and enthusiastically waged 0:13:49.880 --> 0:13:53.640 the war on drugs, are not doing it primarily for 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.679 the money. They're not doing it primarily for the glory. 0:13:57.160 --> 0:14:02.439 And so they believe on some core level that what 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.560 they're doing is in the interest of justice and is 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.880 in fact promoting public safety. And so if somebody an 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:12.640 outsider like Larry or myself comes along and runs a 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:15.000 race in which were openly critical of the War on 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.880 drugs or of many of the traditional ways that prosecutors 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:23.200 have behaved, like seeking convictions at all costs, like covering 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:28.320 up police misconduct, like refusing to consider the possibility that 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.160 people have been wrongfully convicted of crimes and are languishing 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:35.840 in prisons. Those new approaches that are quintessential parts of 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:38.520 the progressive prosecutor movement are not going to be well 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:41.120 received by folks who have dedicated their lives and their 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:45.360 careers to a very different approach to doing the job. 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.600 And so yeah, there's inevitably a certain degree of distrust 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:54.800 and disconnect, and bureaucracies are very effective at resisting change, 0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:59.520 digging their heels in, at simply refusing to follow instructions 0:14:59.600 --> 0:15:02.320 or new policies. We see it with police departments all 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:07.280 across the country when efforts at reform are implemented through 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:11.360 state legislation or police commissions or police chiefs. Even and 0:15:11.520 --> 0:15:16.120 certainly we experienced some very active resistance and sabotage from 0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:18.520 within our ranks. We also, though, and this is important, 0:15:19.280 --> 0:15:21.760 we also had a large number of staff who were 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.640 excited and supportive and embraced the vision who had joined 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.520 the office because it was San Francisco and it was 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.800 known as a progressive town, and because my predecessor, die 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:35.560 Gascone had certainly in his later years begun to implement 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:38.800 a lot of reforms that again we see as part 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:43.280 of the national conversation around progressive prosecutors. And so there 0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:45.640 was a mixed a mixed reception, I would say, a 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:51.040 lot of resistance and entrenched hostility. And yet also some 0:15:51.080 --> 0:15:53.600 of the attorneys were and some of the other staff 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.040 were very open to the ideas um and I learned 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.440 a tremendous amount from the people in the office over 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:01.520 the two and a half years that I had the 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:04.120 honor to service district attorney. What do you think in 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.960 your interactions with the old time prosecutors in your office 0:16:07.960 --> 0:16:10.960 who remained. Was there anything that you learned from them 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.640 that really changed the way that you thought about criminal 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:16.960 justice or about the role of the prosecutors A good 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.040 away here, I'm talking about the old line prosecutors who 0:16:19.120 --> 0:16:22.560 chose not to leave. I learned a lot from from 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:25.240 some of these folks, and some of them were public 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:28.560 supporters of mine in opposition to the recall. Um, some 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:32.000 of them helped me navigate my first ever grand jury 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:33.960 indictment in a homicide case that I present to do 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.920 a grand jury. UM. So you know, there was a 0:16:36.960 --> 0:16:40.480 lot that I learned from folks both day to day, 0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.840 um nuts and bolts about running the office, about interactions 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:47.200 with other agencies like the police and the courts from 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.680 this side of the aisle. But I think big picture, 0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.920 one of the things that I learned is from these 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.360 folks and from the job, and you know, is the 0:16:55.440 --> 0:16:59.800 disconnect between the way the Supreme Court describes the ethical 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.240 and legal obligations of the prosecutor Minister of justice. You know, 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:07.119 we have to be um, justice seekers, not conviction seekers. 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.919 You know, we're not advocating for a particular party in 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:14.240 the case. We represent the people, all of the people. UM. 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.199 Either way it's described in Supreme Court opinions and in 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:21.280 ethical treatises is very very very far removed from the 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:23.920 day to day reality of the political pressures of the job, 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:31.280 in which there's huge, huge incentive two mitigate political risk 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:36.239 and and perceive public safety risk by blocking people up 0:17:36.240 --> 0:17:39.520 for as long as possible and doing that without regard 0:17:39.520 --> 0:17:42.600 to evidence or data or justice or even the wishes 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:47.880 of the victims. And it's easy to see why goodhearted, 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:53.359 well intentioned people in this role would naturally lean and 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:59.040 skew towards seeking pre child attention. Seeking incarceration and relying 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:03.479 on incarceration is a primary response to the tremendously diverse 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.919 array of social problems that get dumped on the criminal 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:10.359 legal system. I saw why and how that happens, and 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:12.480 it made me all the more determined to ensure that 0:18:12.520 --> 0:18:17.320 my office would not fall victim, would not participate in 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.520 that horrific aberration of justice and of the real constitutional 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:26.040 duties of prosecutors. We'll be talking more after we hear 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:43.399 this ad reading about what you did, Junior. Two and 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:45.560 a half years there was a piece in the Atlantic 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.560 and it said Budan has ended cash bail for our listeners, 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:53.919 basically the practice whereby your ability to get out on 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:55.879 bail once you've been arrested depends on whether or not 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.640 you can raise the money or not. Um He has 0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:02.560 ceased prosecuting cases in which the evidence came from quote 0:19:02.600 --> 0:19:06.119 unque pretextual traffic stops, such as when a police officer 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.800 pulls over a car for a broken tail light and 0:19:08.920 --> 0:19:12.040 ends up booking the driver after founding drugs. He you 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:15.679 stopped using enhancements that add years to the sentences of 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.840 gang members. He quit using the stakes three strikes law. 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:22.760 He filed charges against the San Francisco police officer accused 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:26.199 of brutality. He instituted a commission to identify and overturn 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:28.520 wrongful convisitions. He cut the number of young people in 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.720 car street in half and reduced the pre trial jail population. 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:35.000 And he also expanded the use of diversion and restorative 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:39.040 justice programs. So accurate description of what you did, in 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:42.320 fact do while you were there. Um, we did that stuff. Yeah, 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:44.560 that's all true. We could keep going. Uh, there's a 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.159 lot of work that I'm that I'm proud of that. Uh. 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.760 We promised voters in we would work towards and which 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.080 in fact we did work towards. Okay, keep going, what else? 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:55.680 Tell me some of the other things so our listeners 0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:00.560 will understand. We launched the Independent Innocence Commission that exonerated 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.399 a man wrongfully convicted of murder after decades in prison. 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.119 We created a worker Protection Unit because we recognize that 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.560 wage theft is causing harm to far far more Americans 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.600 than most of the property crimes that are traditionally prosecuted. 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:19.880 We UM dramatically expanded victim services, including appointing the first 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:24.520 ever Chinese speaking head of Victim Services and increasing the 0:20:24.600 --> 0:20:28.240 number of Chinese speaking staff in our office by over 0:20:28.320 --> 0:20:33.360 fi UM. We expanded victim services into areas that had 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.280 never gone before to begin offering services to victims of 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.639 property crime. To UM work in partnership with both private 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.679 and public stakeholders to create housing for domestic violence survivors, 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:51.240 for example. And we also really embraced our commitment to 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:56.480 preventing crime and being proactive rather than reactive, with cases 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.360 like our groundbreaking lawsuit against the manufact of ghost guns, 0:21:01.920 --> 0:21:05.720 illegal firearms that are designed to be untraceable and sold 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.040 on black markets or over the Internet to people who 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.440 intend to use them to commit crimes. We didn't wait 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:14.040 for those crimes to be committed. We filed the major 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:18.680 lawsuit against three of the biggest manufacturers of those guns 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.080 in the nat of California. Now I know that in 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:23.480 part of the debate over what was going on leading 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:25.320 up to the recall, I mean, you were putting out 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.280 statistics about in fact, you were charging much more than 0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.560 people said, and other people and and of course you 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.639 know the stats. Anybody can to some extent manipulated them 0:21:33.640 --> 0:21:36.040 one way or another. And then with COVID coming in, 0:21:36.080 --> 0:21:38.160 it's very hard to do, you know, year by year 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:42.600 comparisons in any real way. Um, but what's your some 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.600 of your critics, let's start off with um, good old uh, 0:21:45.880 --> 0:21:48.600 what's her name? Brooke Jenkins? Right? Who worked in your 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.600 day's office, who left, and who after you were recalled 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:56.160 Mayor London Breed appointed to be your successor. I mean, 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.960 sending a pretty clear message that she wanted to put 0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:01.919 a more tough on crime sort of person there. And 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.800 what she said about you, I'm going to quote Chase 0:22:05.000 --> 0:22:08.080 has a belief that your approach should be defendant centered. 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.880 Everything should revolve around what's best for the defendants. He's 0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:14.919 never let go of his role as the public defender. 0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.760 But she said, a prosecutor's primary function as public safety, 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.600 you have to serve as an advocate of the victim. 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:25.520 So what was or what it would be a response 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:29.400 to that? Now? Well, first of all, my office, under 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:32.639 my leadership, did more to expand victim services and to 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:37.040 increase language access for non English speaking victims than any 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:39.080 day in the history of San Francisco, and I am 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:41.960 tremendously proud of my record when it comes to advocating 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:46.480 for victims personally, meeting with families of homicide victims and 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:49.560 more cases than I can count. Asking in every single 0:22:49.560 --> 0:22:52.720 budget I submitted to the mayor to increase resources for 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:55.480 our Victims Services Division is a primary request in my 0:22:55.560 --> 0:23:00.560 budgets every single year. UM. So, clearly what Brooke was 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.320 saying in that statement was was political. It was designed 0:23:03.320 --> 0:23:06.119 to attack and to support the recall, and it was 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:11.080 part of an effective campaign. The thing that stands out 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:14.760 at me more than just the dishonesty and the typical 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.959 and traditional dishonesty of um of politics, is that actually 0:23:19.960 --> 0:23:22.760 our criminal legal system is set up around the defendant. 0:23:23.480 --> 0:23:25.320 And that's not a choice that I made or one 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:27.479 that I necessarily even agree with, but the way that 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:30.080 the system works in this country, going back to our 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:33.000 Bill of Rights, is that people accused of crimes written 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:36.119 into the U. S Constitution in the Bill of Rights, 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:42.239 have civil protections, have rights like speedy trial and right 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.840 to council and the right to confront witnesses against them, 0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:48.760 have a whole series of rights around which the court 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:53.880 processes in this country have been developed over centuries. Victims 0:23:53.880 --> 0:23:58.439 do not have equivalent rights. They're not even represented in 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:02.320