Speaker 1: I miss the green.
Speaker 2: For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball
Speaker 2: in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my.
Speaker 3: Ball in a Frida Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida
Speaker 3: Egg Friday Friday Bride Egg.
Speaker 2: Lie, I'm about ready to run off a golf course.
Speaker 3: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back for another edition of the
Speaker 3: Friday Egg Podcast. Today we will dive back into golf
Speaker 3: course architecture and we are joined by Riley Johns. Riley
Speaker 3: is an up and coming architect from Canada who recently
Speaker 3: completed his first solo design with Keith Rabb at Winter
Speaker 3: Park and has worked under great architects such as Tom Doak,
Speaker 3: Bill Krer, Ben Crenshaw and Rod Whitman.
Speaker 2: Riley, welcome on, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of your up and coming success
Speaker 1: as a as a professional podcaster.
Speaker 3: I don't know about that after the intro music, it
Speaker 3: takes a sharp decline, So I'd love to you know,
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people probably aren't familiar with
Speaker 3: your name, but would love to hear a little bit
Speaker 3: about your background, how you got into golf course design,
Speaker 3: and a little bit about you.
Speaker 1: Well. You know, I kind of came from I'm Canadian obviously,
Speaker 1: so you know, golf is being is a big part
Speaker 1: of our you know, our country up here, along with
Speaker 1: other sports like hockey. But you know, I kind of
Speaker 1: came from a different side of things. I came from
Speaker 1: more of a construction background rather than you know, I
Speaker 1: was never the kid that was drawn you know, golf
Speaker 1: holes on the back of his you know, restaurant place, Matt.
Speaker 1: You know, I never you know, my father was never
Speaker 1: a member at a prestigious club, and and so I
Speaker 1: never really had a you know, golf centric kind of background.
Speaker 1: I came from more of a you know, I love
Speaker 1: the outdoors.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, I was always the kid that, you know,
Speaker 1: we never had TV or anything like that. We you know,
Speaker 1: we don't go outside and play. We'd build sports out
Speaker 1: in the forest. And you know, I was pretty lucky
Speaker 1: to grow up in a in a town, mountain town
Speaker 1: in Canada, right right next to you know, damps, and
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful part of the country. So you know,
Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time outdoors, and and you know,
Speaker 1: we we you know, I was always a kid that
Speaker 1: was we'd always we'd have sandbox right, We had tongo toys,
Speaker 1: and we'd you know, we we'd shape things with the
Speaker 1: sand and build, you know on our version of a
Speaker 1: big hydro dam and get the garden hose and fill
Speaker 1: it up to the brim and you know, breach the
Speaker 1: hydro dam and watch the sandbox flood and you know,
Speaker 1: do those kinds of things. So, you know, that's kind
Speaker 1: of how I grew up. And a lot of my
Speaker 1: summer jobs included outdoor you know type work, whether it
Speaker 1: be land landscaping or land surveying, golf course maintenance, or
Speaker 1: ski lift construction or even you know, a lot of
Speaker 1: civil kind of you know, outdoor civil projects. And so
Speaker 1: you know, I was never you know, other than being
Speaker 1: the ball boy picking up golf balls and doing golf
Speaker 1: course maintenance. I was never really part of golf until
Speaker 1: later on in my life. And that was when I
Speaker 1: was doing golf course maintenance that I realized that, you know,
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed golf as a sport, but also the
Speaker 1: whole design aspect, uh and the strategy that came along
Speaker 1: with it, and just the whole you know, golf as
Speaker 1: being h you know, something that meet you know, the
Speaker 1: development like that was one thing I, you know, never
Speaker 1: thought of as as a kid growing up either was
Speaker 1: you know, I didn't know there was even a profession
Speaker 1: out there called golf course architecture, golf course design. That
Speaker 1: was something I just never thought of until I remember, Uh,
Speaker 1: we were serving land serving a golf course. Uh here
Speaker 1: here in my hometown. My dad was a land surveyor,
Speaker 1: so I've you know, worked with him quite a bit.
Speaker 1: And we're surveying, you know, a golf course. And this
Speaker 1: was before GPS and you know that fancy technology now
Speaker 1: that you can pretty much do it from from a computer.
Speaker 1: We had to go out in the into the four,
Speaker 1: into the bush and you know, a cut a cup
Speaker 1: line so he could get the shot. And I remember
Speaker 1: cutting his cut line and you know, about two hundred
Speaker 1: yards down he said, okay, and I'll move the you know,
Speaker 1: move the steak over to the left, okay, and I'll
Speaker 1: put that on the ground now right down eighth green, right.
Speaker 1: And I'm here in the middle of the forest and
Speaker 1: going on eighth green right here. This doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1: And that was kind of a kind of an AHA
Speaker 1: moment for me as far as wow, golf is a
Speaker 1: big development and there's people that you know, are are
Speaker 1: fundamental in the creation of golf and it's something that
Speaker 1: needs to be traded. So, you know, I went on
Speaker 1: to working for you know, various golf course related entities,
Speaker 1: whether it be you know, doing golf course and maintenance.
Speaker 1: You know, I worked. I worked actually at a golf
Speaker 1: course here in town where I did. I worked on
Speaker 1: the maintenance, true in the morning, and then I worked
Speaker 1: in the kitchen at night. And so I was working
Speaker 1: you know, twelve hour days, uh, getting up early and
Speaker 1: staying late and just kind of lived at the golf
Speaker 1: course for for an entire season. So I was it
Speaker 1: was an interesting, you know, kind of interesting aspect. Two,
Speaker 1: just to being involved in a golf course where you
Speaker 1: can kind of see the operations from all different at
Speaker 1: different angles, was you know, that was that was pretty
Speaker 1: interesting too. And you know as I as I you know,
Speaker 1: decided to kind of take this, you know a little
Speaker 1: bit further. I I, you know, sent some sent some
Speaker 1: resumes out and got on a golf course contractor team
Speaker 1: and started building golf in the Calgary area. You know,
Speaker 1: just picking rocks on a fairway, you know, like you
Speaker 1: don't there's no h there's no glorious path to say
Speaker 1: any of this, and I don't even know if right
Speaker 1: or wrong. I'm sure as you interview more people, you
Speaker 1: realize that everyone's kind of taking their own, you know,
Speaker 1: path to get to. So where they went in mind
Speaker 1: was a very hands on, you know, construction path, and
Speaker 1: you know, working for a golf contractor just really opened
Speaker 1: my eyes to you know, what is actually involved in
Speaker 1: creating golf and how much goes into it, how many
Speaker 1: people are involved, and all the nuances involved in that.
Speaker 1: And they also had fantastic you know access to some
Speaker 1: seasoned professionals and architects and a variety of you know
Speaker 1: people in the industry who you know mentored me and
Speaker 1: educated me and taught me, and you know, you know,
Speaker 1: before you know it, I was seventeen years old and
Speaker 1: sitting in the dozer and you know, pushing dirt and
Speaker 1: fell in love with it from that day and started
Speaker 1: shaping and doing some finishing work, learned drainage and learn
Speaker 1: you know, I worked for irrigation contractors. I can you know,
Speaker 1: install irrigation, So I just kind of learned as much
Speaker 1: as I could about about golf and golf course design
Speaker 1: and construction, you know, reading, reading golf course architecture books,
Speaker 1: you know, while shaping on a project. Uh, you know,
Speaker 1: while you know, picking picking people's brains on you know,
Speaker 1: questions that I had and having access to those kind
Speaker 1: of people was it was critical, and you know a
Speaker 1: lot of them were very supportive and and you know
Speaker 1: suggested that I, you know, I had a knack for
Speaker 1: it and that I take it, you know, to the
Speaker 1: next level and you know, keep pursuing it and encourage
Speaker 1: me to basically you know, go to school was kind
Speaker 1: of the next step. You know, I'd been you know,
Speaker 1: I'd worked on dozens of projects, you know, whether they
Speaker 1: were brand new builds or renovations or restorations or remodels
Speaker 1: or what have you. And I want and you know,
Speaker 1: learning architecture from from books and that kind of stuff
Speaker 1: is is good, but you know it has its, you know,
Speaker 1: limitations as far as what you can get out of it.
Speaker 1: And and so you know, I've enrolled in the University
Speaker 1: of Gwelph's Landscape Architecture program with the intent or the
Speaker 1: focus of kind of concentrating on golf and golf design
Speaker 1: and golf architecture and you know, and any sort of
Speaker 1: engineering anything that you know, I took per science as
Speaker 1: kind of a minor and just kind of piece together,
Speaker 1: you know, an education that I thought would be beneficial
Speaker 1: going forward, and it was fantastic. It was, you know,
Speaker 1: I've learned so much in that in that four years
Speaker 1: of you know, things that I just wouldn't be able
Speaker 1: to kind of pull from a book. And I was
Speaker 1: able to you my experience that you know, that I
Speaker 1: already had, you know, ten years of shaping and and
Speaker 1: building golf, so new things, you know, and having having
Speaker 1: a lens surveying background as well, just you know, I
Speaker 1: felt like I had a pretty good understanding of you know,
Speaker 1: spatial spatial analysis and three D and development and you know,
Speaker 1: contours and grading and all that stuff was you know,
Speaker 1: pretty pretty natural to me by that point. So I
Speaker 1: was able to focus my studies more on some of
Speaker 1: the you know, the meat potatoes are kind of kind
Speaker 1: of the nuances of design and learn, you know, learn
Speaker 1: theories on you know, whether it be you know, conceal
Speaker 1: and reveal, prospect refuge, or you know, any sort of
Speaker 1: kind of landscape architecture theories. And then I started kind
Speaker 1: of looking at that through the through the lens of
Speaker 1: golf course architecture, and I, you know, I started to
Speaker 1: find a lot of simil larities and and how and
Speaker 1: and how golf course architecture and landscape architecture where they
Speaker 1: met and where they differed. And you know, I was
Speaker 1: able to kind of learn on a deeper level, I
Speaker 1: suppose kind of what I wanted to get out of
Speaker 1: a university and and so you know, that was that
Speaker 1: was fantastic. You know, I just paid my way to
Speaker 1: university was through shaping. So I was kind of just
Speaker 1: immersed and golf course and golf course designed for you know,
Speaker 1: for for a long time. And and and then you know,
Speaker 1: trying to trying to get to the next level. You know,
Speaker 1: we don't I don't have the luxury of having a
Speaker 1: you know, a father who was a golf course architect
Speaker 1: or a professional golfer or anything like that. So you know,
Speaker 1: the next and the next step was to hound hound
Speaker 1: Tom Doak and ask him if he would ever consider,
Speaker 1: you know, taking taking me on as a as an intern.
Speaker 1: And that took about three years of letter writing and
Speaker 1: he finally said, you know what, We're got some projects
Speaker 1: on the go and in China and a few domestically
Speaker 1: and and uh just could be the right time. So
Speaker 1: you know, I jumped on that opportunity. And so I know.
Speaker 3: I've heard that Tom has a you know, an application
Speaker 3: process for the internship where you kind of do a design.
Speaker 3: Did Is that was that the case when you got
Speaker 3: into the program?
Speaker 1: Yes, I you know, I remember doing a design. Had
Speaker 1: it had like some contour contour maps and you do
Speaker 1: design and but you know, and I don't even know
Speaker 1: if there was an official application process when I did
Speaker 1: it. It was more of a you know, Traverse City was
Speaker 1: you know, driving from out West where I lived to
Speaker 1: you know, guelf Ontario, which is in Toronto. Basically, you know,
Speaker 1: I was kind of going through his neighborhood, so I
Speaker 1: stopped by the office and hang out and introduce myself
Speaker 1: kind of face to face sort of thing. So I
Speaker 1: don't know if I did the application process properly, but
Speaker 1: it was more of a you know, how's it going.
Speaker 1: My name's Riley. If he was ever an opportunity to
Speaker 1: you know, work with you guys, sort of learn from you,
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm very much like that sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I do remember some sort of contour map
Speaker 1: and he came up with a designer. But I remember
Speaker 1: that was kind of very early and maybe the first
Speaker 1: time I I contacted him, he had something like that
Speaker 1: on his website. But yeah, and then yeah, so spent
Speaker 1: spent a year at him and and the Renaissance guys,
Speaker 1: which was, you know, outstanding. I did a little a
Speaker 1: little workout in China with Eric Iverson out there, and
Speaker 1: but for the most part, you know, I was I
Speaker 1: was really just looking for the office experience and and
Speaker 1: you know, trying to learn the business side of the profession.
Speaker 1: You know, I had enough dozer time and excavator time,
Speaker 1: and you know, enough golf courses kind of my under
Speaker 1: my belt as far as construction and implementation. But the
Speaker 1: one thing that you just have a tough time learning
Speaker 1: about in this industry is you know, how to write
Speaker 1: a consulting reporter, you know how to structure a contract
Speaker 1: or you know, how do you go you know, how
Speaker 1: do you you know all the kinds of you know,
Speaker 1: business accounting and you know, structuring a company. And just
Speaker 1: like there's there's so many things that you know, you
Speaker 1: just can't learn from a book or school and you
Speaker 1: can only learn by you know, kind of placing yourself
Speaker 1: in into a situation or working with someone who's done it.
Speaker 1: And and Tom was u extremely open and and accommodating
Speaker 1: and generous. And I spent a lot of time in
Speaker 1: the Traverse City office helping him with you know, plans,
Speaker 1: and going on consulting trips with him out to you know,
Speaker 1: Long Island and you know, golfing golfing with him at
Speaker 1: Crystal Downs and being able to you know, really have
Speaker 1: a lot of one on one time with him, and
Speaker 1: also being you know in the in the den, so
Speaker 1: to speak, when you know, phone calls are happening and
Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out budgets and you know,
Speaker 1: working on you know, time construction timelines and you know,
Speaker 1: getting phone calls from from clients and helping with you know,
Speaker 1: writing up reports and stuff like that. So that was
Speaker 1: kind of what I was really looking to get into
Speaker 1: Zoo because as I'm glamorous, as a lot of people
Speaker 1: pay think that is, that's like that's a hard thing
Speaker 1: to learn in this industry. And it was so important
Speaker 1: he and he was so open, and it was a
Speaker 1: it was a it was a big, you know kind
Speaker 1: of piece still the gap, so to speak, for all
Speaker 1: my other kind of education.
Speaker 3: So I'm curious with Tom, you know, in having spent
Speaker 3: so much time with Tom, uh, what you think is
Speaker 3: kind of you know, you know, if you had to
Speaker 3: look at one thing that he does just extremely well
Speaker 3: and maybe you know, the best you know of the
Speaker 3: modern era at one aspect of design, what would you
Speaker 3: say it is?
Speaker 1: M hmm, you know, I would say he you know,
Speaker 1: being he's very mathematical, very analytical too. I would say routing.
Speaker 1: He's very you know, and I think that's what really
Speaker 1: interests him in the profession too, is is is the
Speaker 1: solving or cracking of the puzzle, you know, and then
Speaker 1: also creating a puzzle at the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: which is kind of the art to the craft of
Speaker 1: you know, golf course architects. You get this land, and
Speaker 1: you get this these contours, and you get all these
Speaker 1: you know, views and constraints and you know, all these
Speaker 1: all these kind of pieces to a puzzle that you
Speaker 1: then need to kind of analyze and then and then
Speaker 1: and then come up with the best solution you know,
Speaker 1: for the for that piece of land with you know,
Speaker 1: the intention of you know, you have some constraints, like
Speaker 1: you know, golf is eighteen holes typically and you know,
Speaker 1: seven thousand yards is a pretty average number for you
Speaker 1: know that, and you know you want a variety of
Speaker 1: part threes and fours, but for the most part, you
Speaker 1: could put you know, you could route that golf course
Speaker 1: a million different ways on that one piece of land.
Speaker 1: And you know, I think he really relishes that that
Speaker 1: kind of challenge. And and you know, working with him
Speaker 1: on the A for Students project, you know, being able
Speaker 1: to you know, sit in the office and watch and
Speaker 1: learn and work with them on how routing of a
Speaker 1: golf course not in just one direction, but two directions.
Speaker 1: You know, that was like that was a master's class
Speaker 1: and routing sort of thing. So you know, he's very
Speaker 1: you know when it comes to to routing, he's very
Speaker 1: you know, he's he can like another an example is
Speaker 1: he's when he's when he's taling up his you know,
Speaker 1: yardages or you know, wants to see what what the
Speaker 1: power ends up being. You know, I'm maybe it's just
Speaker 1: the next generation that pulls out a calculator, but he
Speaker 1: just looks at it and he can he can just
Speaker 1: crunch all those numbers and say sixty eight and seventy
Speaker 1: two yards sort of thing. You're like, okay, I know,
Speaker 1: and routing is a bit of a mathematical game too,
Speaker 1: and when you get into the core of it. But
Speaker 1: I would say that's his you know, what he enjoys
Speaker 1: doing the most and what he's one of the best
Speaker 1: of the world.
Speaker 3: So you've referenced you know, reading books a couple of times,
Speaker 3: and a question I get all the time is, you know,
Speaker 3: what are what are your favorite architecture books? And I'm
Speaker 3: curious what you think are some of the best architecture books,
Speaker 3: whether it's for a beginner or for somebody that's you know,
Speaker 3: gotten through all the you know, the introductory materials.
Speaker 1: There's so many out there now and there's so much
Speaker 1: resources that you know, and being able to purchase books
Speaker 1: now so easy and Google an animalst Amazon. So you know,
Speaker 1: my library is a little bit overgrown, is one way
Speaker 1: of putting it. But you know, there's one book that
Speaker 1: for beginners, Like a lot of people ask me the
Speaker 1: same question, and it's like, well, you don't want to
Speaker 1: get into you know, too heavy and stuff right out
Speaker 1: of the gate, because it's kind of you know, probably
Speaker 1: boring for most people, but you know, to get to
Speaker 1: get a sense of golf course architecture, and but also
Speaker 1: have some visuals to kind of go along with it.
Speaker 1: There's there's a book that there's Jeff Shackelford did it
Speaker 1: with Michael Miller, the painters for the artists, and it's
Speaker 1: called The Art of Golf Design, and it's it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of a coffee table book, but you know, it's
Speaker 1: got a lot of good information in there, just kind
Speaker 1: of has a really nice way of explaining golf course architecture.
Speaker 1: It's features, it's principles, it's theories, it's you know, you know,
Speaker 1: and also give some great examples of you know, it
Speaker 1: in practice. But they also do this cool thing where
Speaker 1: they take you know, they take images or they try
Speaker 1: to recreate what the golf course used to look like
Speaker 1: and then paint it so like you can find like
Speaker 1: pictures of you know, Pine Valley and you know mid
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eas and they'll do a you know, a
Speaker 1: depiction of it. You know, Michael Miller will do a
Speaker 1: sweet picture of it with you know, paintings and clouds
Speaker 1: to just animate it and bring it to life. And
Speaker 1: then Jeff shack but there is like essays on you know,
Speaker 1: what the you know, some of these finer features of
Speaker 1: golf course architecture are like you know, temptation, you know,
Speaker 1: just try to get into it, but not overwhelming. So,
Speaker 1: you know, anyone that's kind of interested in golf course
Speaker 1: architecture but doesn't want to pick up a novel, yeah,
Speaker 1: and also wants to look at some cool pictures that
Speaker 1: I would say the the art of golf design is
Speaker 1: a good as a good starter. And then for something
Speaker 1: that's a little bit heavier. You know one book that
Speaker 1: I always liked, and it's not really heavier, but it's
Speaker 1: the Golf has Never Failed Me, The Donald Ross Book.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've if you have that one,
Speaker 1: if you read it, but.
Speaker 3: I haven't as I've outgrown my books.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a good one. It's like it's kind
Speaker 1: of they've taken a bunch of notes they're almost like
Speaker 1: diary type entries from Donald Ross and just pieced it together.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like an eclectic note book that that
Speaker 1: of of the of Donald Ross, and and he just
Speaker 1: talks about just everything really everything from from turf to
Speaker 1: design to construction to his opinions on things you know,
Speaker 1: golf related, whether that's you know, attire or mannerisms and
Speaker 1: it and it's this kind of fascinating little book. It's
Speaker 1: quick to pick up. You don't have to sink into it,
Speaker 1: like it's they're all segregated into small little chapters and
Speaker 1: some of them are only a page long sort of thing.
Speaker 1: And you know, I just always like the the way
Speaker 1: those guys wrote and spoke back in the day, Like
Speaker 1: they had a way of saying, you know, their quotes
Speaker 1: are anything that a way of same things in one
Speaker 1: sentence that you know, in this day and age, it
Speaker 1: seems like we have to use a paragraph to say
Speaker 1: that the same thing. And they just had this this witty
Speaker 1: kind of you know, way of just making their point.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm sure you've come across a lot of them,
Speaker 1: and ye've seen a lot of quotes. They could summarize
Speaker 1: things so beautifully and and and and succinctly. And who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe that's also transcended into their adult course design, that
Speaker 1: the less is more kind of model, Right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that they all they had
Speaker 3: like a good little snarp to him too, you know.
Speaker 3: Where That's something I always like is, you know, reading
Speaker 3: the old quotes and you know, these guys had had
Speaker 3: so much more attitude, and in today's their quote would
Speaker 3: just get mangled and and just you.
Speaker 2: Know, picked apart.
Speaker 3: But back then they could, you know, just they could
Speaker 3: just land the blast things.
Speaker 2: And I mean, in general, I.
Speaker 3: Think that writing writing short and concise is a lot
Speaker 3: harder than writing you know, long. I think it's definitely
Speaker 3: an art. So, you know, I think you've got a
Speaker 3: really interesting background and unique background that got you into
Speaker 3: the game.
Speaker 2: And you know.
Speaker 3: It, it might not be the typical path to architecture,
Speaker 3: but you know, doing maintenance and learning, you know, learning
Speaker 3: about turf and and and having early experience with construction,
Speaker 3: it's had to have helped you a ton. And I
Speaker 3: know that you you are of like the design build nature. Like,
Speaker 3: how much of an advantage do you think your background.
Speaker 2: Has given you in your career?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess it's an advantage.
Speaker 1: It's a you know, I certainly rely on it heavily
Speaker 1: when when when doing design work or you know, coming
Speaker 1: up with with with ideas. It's it super helpful to
Speaker 1: have the wherewith all their ability to to not just
Speaker 1: design something, but to know exactly how to achieve it.
Speaker 1: How to actually build it how it you know, what's
Speaker 1: feasible and what's not. I feel like I have a
Speaker 1: pretty good sense. It's very it's very intuitive now, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that's maybe you know, what helps me
Speaker 1: the most is just to be able to understand, you know,
Speaker 1: from having mode greens you know what, you know, what
Speaker 1: the what the limitations of a you know, a greens
Speaker 1: mower is, or what the limitations of a fly mo
Speaker 1: is when it comes to say, maintaining you know, seat faces,
Speaker 1: or you know what the implications of sands splashed up
Speaker 1: on a bunker faces and in a rainy climate and
Speaker 1: having washouts and you know all that stuff. So I
Speaker 1: think it really I think it really does help me actually,
Speaker 1: and I think and I think it's you know, it
Speaker 1: just really helps create a full a bigger picture, a
Speaker 1: fuller picture of the design work at hand, and it
Speaker 1: just helps inform a lot of the design decisions and
Speaker 1: I and I find it's going to definitely help, you know,
Speaker 1: in the future. I'm very thankful and glad that I
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to learn a lot of these, you know,
Speaker 1: from a lot of these seasoned professionals on techniques, whether
Speaker 1: that's you know, you know, understanding how an irrigation head
Speaker 1: is wired to why you know pipe sizes need to
Speaker 1: be a certain size, you know, to get to water pressure,
Speaker 1: you know, efficiently from one side of the site to
Speaker 1: the other, and you know all those kind of all
Speaker 1: those things that perhaps if you were never in the
Speaker 1: trenches doing it, you might not even have an understanding
Speaker 1: on how that works or why. And who knows, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe had you had that kind of background or knowledge,
Speaker 1: you might have designed something slightly different. Not that I'm
Speaker 1: saying no, well, design should definitely be you know, you know,
Speaker 1: form and function and all that debate, but there's definitely
Speaker 1: something something there that's helpful. And I think it just
Speaker 1: for me, it boils down to a bit more of
Speaker 1: an intuitive kind of feel to how golf courses function
Speaker 1: after you've done building.
Speaker 2: I imagine that a golf courses.
Speaker 3: You know, when you design it, you're kind of designing
Speaker 3: almost like a It's like an animal and where you know,
Speaker 3: all all the person to work together, and you know,
Speaker 3: if one of them doesn't work, it never will live
Speaker 3: up to what you know it originally was intended for.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know you can also you know, fall
Speaker 1: in the trap of overthinking things, over analyzing them. And
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes times mistakes are what breathed life to
Speaker 1: the character of a golf course too. You know, unintended
Speaker 1: mistakes could very well turn to bode well for a
Speaker 1: golf whole or golf course or whatever it might be.
Speaker 1: And and just you know, it's you know, it's not
Speaker 1: like it's a skyscraper or bridge or a highway or
Speaker 1: something you know, something of that's that's yea or anything
Speaker 1: like that, but it's you know, it's a some you know, golf,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's a fluid process, and it's
Speaker 1: a living, breathing, you know, entity once you're done with it,
Speaker 1: and it evolves over time. With this, you know, the
Speaker 1: elements and and sometimes trying to you know, the hubrits
Speaker 1: of trying to think that you can figure it all
Speaker 1: out and control that, you know, you might be handcuffing
Speaker 1: you know, the potential of a of a golf course
Speaker 1: or a golf whole by by trying to control all
Speaker 1: those elements. And sometimes you know, and you'll talk to
Speaker 1: anyone in the industry who's been been doing this for
Speaker 1: a while, like sometimes mistakes or unintended you know, things
Speaker 1: that happen on a golf course. Inspired, you know, you'll
Speaker 1: leave it or you get inspired to you know, maybe
Speaker 1: you use that too. You know, we're gonna we're gonna
Speaker 1: shape off of that. You know. Funny sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: things like irrigation blow and if a mainline blows out,
Speaker 1: that carves this huge casm and you know, on the
Speaker 1: side of the fairway and go back to the tea
Speaker 1: and you're like, hey, and this has happened. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure a lot of people out there that similar situations
Speaker 1: happened like this. But you know, an irrigation break could
Speaker 1: turn into a cool cross bunker pretty quick.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like almost anything.
Speaker 3: Sometimes your your biggest you know, I make mistakes all
Speaker 3: the time and sometimes they work out. So I know
Speaker 3: you it seems like you're pretty well read, and I'm
Speaker 3: curious with you know what, what Golden Age architects do
Speaker 3: you have you studied the most and kind of have
Speaker 3: the most appreciation for. Maybe maybe some that you know,
Speaker 3: obviously everybody loves Mackenzie, but you know some uh, some
Speaker 3: off the off the beaten path names that uh, you know,
Speaker 3: not every casual golf fan knows.
Speaker 1: Well, uh, that's a that's a tough question to I mean,
Speaker 1: the reason that those guys are so popular is because
Speaker 1: they were you know, they they put a lot of
Speaker 1: their thoughts and theories and principles and and all that
Speaker 1: stuff into writing and and a lot of them were
Speaker 1: quite sounds. I mean, you know, I've taken a lot
Speaker 1: from from different different architects and and and try to
Speaker 1: piece together kind of my own eclectic you know, theories
Speaker 1: and ideas and and and stuff like that. But you know,
Speaker 1: I would say, not that he's obscure by any means,
Speaker 1: but Smiley Thompson up here in Canada as a big,
Speaker 1: big influence for me, especially being a you know, a
Speaker 1: member and next door to the bamp Springs golf course,
Speaker 1: and you know, I haven't seen, seen, and played that,
Speaker 1: you know, pretty much my whole life. And you know,
Speaker 1: I would say Stanley Thompson has that had a big influence.
Speaker 1: And I think he's I think he's pretty underrated too.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, if he's just overshadowed by
Speaker 1: the Mackenzies and the Rosses and the Colts and the
Speaker 1: McDonald's and all that. But he, you know, he was
Speaker 1: pretty pretty groundbreaking and his ideas, and you know kind
Speaker 1: of there was a bit of a parallel universe kind
Speaker 1: of happening up here as those guys were, you know,
Speaker 1: finding their stride and starting to really push the profession
Speaker 1: and and you know, discover an experiment and all that.
Speaker 1: He was doing the same thing up here, and and
Speaker 1: he built some amazing golf courses, and you know, he
Speaker 1: thought really deeply about design. He wrote about it. Uh
Speaker 1: you know, for instance, I remember seeing this and I
Speaker 1: don't even know where I've seen it. It's like a
Speaker 1: graph and Stanley Thompson judus graph. This is probably you know,
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, and the graph kind of is his attempt
Speaker 1: at explaining ebbs and flow of a round of a routing,
Speaker 1: and how you know, it's kind of like music. How
Speaker 1: there's you know, there's a peak, and there's you know,
Speaker 1: there's an introduction and and you know you'll want to
Speaker 1: make it too hard out of the gate sort of thing,
Speaker 1: and you know where to put the parfires in the
Speaker 1: trees so that so that the course, the routing has
Speaker 1: a has a has a flow to it that that
Speaker 1: is harmonious with either the land or the type of golf.
Speaker 1: It's in a golf it or what have you. And
Speaker 1: I thought that was pretty pretty groundbreaking, not just to
Speaker 1: think about it, but also then to attempt to put
Speaker 1: it into some sort of you know, visuals that he
Speaker 1: could then communicate it to others. And you know, I
Speaker 1: thought that was pretty pretty groundbreaking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. You know.
Speaker 3: The round is you know, kind of like a song
Speaker 3: where you know, all the great songs have some sort
Speaker 3: of a bill, like you know, it can start out
Speaker 3: strong and then but there's always like a lull or
Speaker 3: you know, some aspect of it. There has to be
Speaker 3: you know, contrasts for a golf course to be great.
Speaker 3: You know, if you know hard every hole being a
Speaker 3: ball buster is nothing anybody wants. But you know, a
Speaker 3: course that's filled with you know, short part four is
Speaker 3: also you know, you you want variety and you want
Speaker 3: different things. So it's pretty interesting to think of how
Speaker 3: he you know, kind of tried to come up with
Speaker 3: a formula like a you know, some sort of put
Speaker 3: it into context. I'm interested, you know, I I've stumbled
Speaker 3: across this question, and you know, I've been asked it
Speaker 3: a few times. What do you think about the role
Speaker 3: of the first hole of a golf course because it
Speaker 3: seems like, you know, there's differing logic where some people
Speaker 3: think it should be you know, a like a warm handshake,
Speaker 3: like I think it was Rainer said that it should be,
Speaker 3: you know, a friendly opening hole. I think Ross was
Speaker 3: that belief. But then there are others that think that
Speaker 3: it should be represented of the course to come. And
Speaker 3: you know, you find these you know a lot more
Speaker 3: challenging first holes.
Speaker 2: You know, do you have a thought on that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's like it's tough to you know,
Speaker 1: paint to paint every golf course with one overriding theory, right, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's you know, as you know, the variety is just
Speaker 1: key in golf. And you know, if you opened every
Speaker 1: golf hole with a warm handshake, then you're getting rid
Speaker 1: of variety, right, So you know there's samily Johnson also
Speaker 1: spoke of it, you know, he was a proponent of
Speaker 1: the part five, you know, starting off and there's there's
Speaker 1: a couple of different ways you can look at it.
Speaker 1: I think I think the one is more of a
Speaker 1: logistics point of view, right, It's it's you don't want
Speaker 1: to have a log jam on your golf course, you know,
Speaker 1: after the first hole, so you don't want to make
Speaker 1: it so for instance, you don't want to make it
Speaker 1: difficult you know, long hole, wu's say, water and hazards
Speaker 1: and opportunity to lose your golf ball, and then follow
Speaker 1: that up with a you know, a par three that's
Speaker 1: notoriously you know three pts. So like right out of
Speaker 1: the gate, you've you've designed a you know, a one
Speaker 1: two punch that is going to start everyone's around slow.
Speaker 1: And so you know that's that has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with anything other than you you know, you've designed you
Speaker 1: can it's inherent now in that golf course, so it
Speaker 1: is important. But you know, would just sacrifice a good
Speaker 1: golf hole for the sake of it being you know,
Speaker 1: should you you know, should it be a four, should
Speaker 1: it be a five? Should it be a long five?
Speaker 1: Should it be an easy five? Should it be you
Speaker 1: know all those things. I think it's really site specific.
Speaker 1: But you know, if if you twisted my rubber arm,
Speaker 1: and you know, obviously starting with a par three, not
Speaker 1: that it's not uncomm you know it's uncommon, but it's
Speaker 1: out there. You know, I wouldn't start a golf course
Speaker 1: with a par three. You know, A part four Part
Speaker 1: five I think is preferable. I'm I like the par
Speaker 1: five starting to just get the golfer out into the
Speaker 1: property quicker. And you know, a short five, you know,
Speaker 1: gives a guy an opportunity to get an eagle right
Speaker 1: out of the gate. And you know, at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I'm all about fun golf and the
Speaker 1: experience of golf, and and if someone can start their
Speaker 1: round with a with a birdie, what's more fun than that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So I want I want to talk a little
Speaker 4: bit about your you and Keith Reb's project down at
Speaker 4: winter Park where you guys teamed up to do each
Speaker 4: of your first solo work, as I believe, and you
Speaker 4: took you know, basically a municipal nine whole course.
Speaker 3: It's it's I went and played it a couple of
Speaker 3: months ago.
Speaker 2: It's a great, great little course.
Speaker 3: It's you know, shorts twenty four hundred yards, but you
Speaker 3: you really gave it a big facelift, and I think
Speaker 3: it's a it serves as a good model for you know,
Speaker 3: the future of municipal golf with you know, interesting green
Speaker 3: complexes and and great bunkering work. But I'm curious about
Speaker 3: you know, venturing off and doing you know, what was
Speaker 3: the thing that you know you learned most from doing
Speaker 3: something on your own for the first time.
Speaker 1: Hmm, you know it was he learned a lot, You
Speaker 1: learned a lot. It's not I'd just say one thing.
Speaker 1: You know, we're we're quite lucky. I mean, we we
Speaker 1: surrounded ourselves with the right team, which I think you know,
Speaker 1: we kind of always knew that was critical for any
Speaker 1: project is guys that yeah, that you bring on to it.
Speaker 1: So you know, we'd learned that from other other projects thankfully,
Speaker 1: so that so we didn't make any mistakes with that.
Speaker 1: I mean, everyone that was involved in that project was
Speaker 1: the right guy for the job. And we just had
Speaker 1: such a good time building it, you know, I would
Speaker 1: say working and and and also being a foreigner doing
Speaker 1: working on that project, right, there was a there was
Speaker 1: another level you know, added to it for for me
Speaker 1: at least, but navigating the municipal I don't know if
Speaker 1: geocracy is the right word, but just the corridors of
Speaker 1: of getting pert a project like this off the ground.
Speaker 1: So everything from you know, permitting approvals, you know, having
Speaker 1: to having to explain and and come up with designs
Speaker 1: to help communicate to people that are in you know,
Speaker 1: the municipal government who are not necessarily golfers and look
Speaker 1: at this as just a you know, an infrastructure type project, right.
Speaker 1: So there, so it's not like you're dealing with a
Speaker 1: client who is all about golf and loves golf and
Speaker 1: his golf and understand, you know, you had to almost
Speaker 1: you almost had to explain very simple ideas that you
Speaker 1: almost assume most people would would would know. But when
Speaker 1: you're working with a municipality, I mean they're working on
Speaker 1: all sorts of different projects, right, and they've created a
Speaker 1: committee to look at the golf course, right, just like
Speaker 1: they created a committee to you know, revitalize the museum
Speaker 1: or the library. Right. It's not necessarily these people are
Speaker 1: are you know, golf fanatics. So you know, navigating you
Speaker 1: know the municipal ropes, avenues or whatever you want to
Speaker 1: call it, and also educating the people who were ultimately
Speaker 1: hiring us on why we were doing things. I would
Speaker 1: say that was you know the biggest thing we learned.
Speaker 1: And you know, everything from like even things like insurance
Speaker 1: and bonding. You know, like this the very unglamorous part
Speaker 1: of the of this industry or this profession is you know,
Speaker 1: all that stuff matters, and you know, we had to
Speaker 1: we had to learn it and learn it quick and
Speaker 1: there was no no room to kind of stumble on something.
Speaker 1: So that was a that was a quick quick learn
Speaker 1: for sure.
Speaker 2: What what would you say about that project?
Speaker 3: Were you most proud of walking away, whether it's a
Speaker 3: you know, a specific feature or you know, just you know,
Speaker 3: something that you know occurred while you guys were on site.
Speaker 1: I would say it was the just teamwork and and
Speaker 1: and how we did it. I mean, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: sure Keith told you the story about how we you know,
Speaker 1: had everything lined up ready to go and you know,
Speaker 1: our D five somehow turned into a D three and
Speaker 1: so they delivered there. We were completely underpowered. So I
Speaker 1: mean the fact that you know, you just you just
Speaker 1: you know, spare down and get it done and and
Speaker 1: work through the problems and problem solved, and and the
Speaker 1: fact that we were able to do what we did
Speaker 1: out there with a you know, essentially a D three,
Speaker 1: a little excavator, tractor trailer, and a skid you know,
Speaker 1: those were those were I think for all of us.
Speaker 1: It was the fact that we were able to do
Speaker 1: it was so little I think was you know, and
Speaker 1: that was what we set out to do, right. We
Speaker 1: didn't want to overcomplicated or make a big production out
Speaker 1: of it. We just wanted to you know, get in there,
Speaker 1: get into get into the sandbox, so to speak, and
Speaker 1: start start creating fun, interesting golf. And you know, when
Speaker 1: when we when we completed it and we walked away,
Speaker 1: I feel like we achieved achieve that goal. So that
Speaker 1: was that was the most I think rewarding aspect of
Speaker 1: that project.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it.
Speaker 3: I'd recommend everybody that is in Orlando, you know, especially
Speaker 3: if you're down there for business, like, it's great to
Speaker 3: go out there and play as the sun's going down.
Speaker 2: You can get around in you know, an hour and
Speaker 2: twenty minutes.
Speaker 1: And I think that's so key too, right. It's affordable,
Speaker 1: it's not going to cost you an arm in a leg.
Speaker 1: It's inclusive. You can just show up. You don't have
Speaker 1: to necessarily plan in advance or make tea times. You know,
Speaker 1: they're they're very combinating and and you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: just fun urban golf. It's it's uh, you know and
Speaker 1: one and on the same kind of thread. One of
Speaker 1: the more rewarding things too, is when we were you know,
Speaker 1: going back there and hanging out on the patio. I
Speaker 1: just loved sitting there and watching people either putt on
Speaker 1: nine or teeming off on one. And I remember seeing
Speaker 1: a group of seniors, they must have been in their eighties,
Speaker 1: foursome heckling each other on the first tee and hitting
Speaker 1: it down and taking off and starting their round. And
Speaker 1: right behind them was a he must have been like
Speaker 1: four maybe five, his first time on a golf course
Speaker 1: with his dad, and and the dad was telling us
Speaker 1: that he'd been you know, hitting balls on the range
Speaker 1: for you know, practicing for this moment, and and and
Speaker 1: the kid was his first time on a on a
Speaker 1: you know, quote unquote real size golf course, is what
Speaker 1: he is, what the kid said, and his dad caddied
Speaker 1: for him. And so so now you have this, you know,
Speaker 1: four year old or five year old following a foursome
Speaker 1: of eighty five year olds and everything in between. And
Speaker 1: each each one of them are you know, experiencinging the
Speaker 1: golf course and having a you know, enjoying it on
Speaker 1: their own level, which I think for us was was
Speaker 1: very rewarding.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I can only imagine it's got to be really
Speaker 3: cool just to watch people play.
Speaker 2: All that, like your course and everything.
Speaker 3: So I'm curious, uh, you know, with the you know,
Speaker 3: as you're starting to build your you know, your individual
Speaker 3: design career, what what would you say if you could,
Speaker 3: you know, what.
Speaker 2: Would be a dream project?
Speaker 3: You know, whether it be a particular area or a
Speaker 3: particular type of course, you.
Speaker 2: Know, what what would you most want to build?
Speaker 1: Uh, that's an easy one for me. I'm I'm I
Speaker 1: love surfing, traveled traveled quite a bit surfing, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I think there's something, there's something connected, you know,
Speaker 1: whether it's a spiritual thing or or just the same
Speaker 1: type of I don't know, the surfing and golfing, I
Speaker 1: guess is what I'm trying to say. I have similar
Speaker 1: threats to connect and I would love to do a
Speaker 1: my dream my dream project and anyone that knows, you know,
Speaker 1: to talk about this all the time is my surf
Speaker 1: and turf resort. I call it. It's a I want
Speaker 1: to I want to find a surf break somewhere in
Speaker 1: the world that also on the shore has just the
Speaker 1: perfect landscape for for golf, and it'd be cool to
Speaker 1: combine a you know, Cabot band in style golf resort
Speaker 1: where it's about just a golf right, not about the
Speaker 1: amenities and all that, but just a great piece of
Speaker 1: golf golfing terrain. But also there's a surf break and
Speaker 1: the clubhouse acts as the clubhouse for both the surfing
Speaker 1: people that are surfing and the people that are golfing.
Speaker 1: And you know, when there's no waves and it's not
Speaker 1: pumping out out there, you can go right, but when
Speaker 1: the waves pick up, everyone kind of goes to the
Speaker 1: surf breaks. You kind of have, you know, two amenities
Speaker 1: at this one resort. And I think if partnering up
Speaker 1: with a you know, a professional surfer or something like
Speaker 1: that to kind of get this off the ground would
Speaker 1: be a dream job. For sure. It would be you know,
Speaker 1: I think it'd be a hit because I think I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of you know, commonality between surfing
Speaker 1: and golfing, and I think exploring that with some sort
Speaker 1: of surf and turf resort, uh, I think it would
Speaker 1: be would be pretty fun.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's uh. I have never surfed, but I've always
Speaker 3: been curious and wanted to. So you know, you'd need
Speaker 3: to have like somebody there to teach beginners like.
Speaker 1: Myself, exactly, and same with same with the surfers that
Speaker 1: can surf and want to go need less hoping. Every
Speaker 1: year I watched the cow you know, the what is
Speaker 1: it not high on day anymore? Whatever that tournament is
Speaker 1: now the Champions tournament at Kapalua. Just watching those kind
Speaker 1: of surfing in the and the whales breaching and and
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. It's uh. I always I
Speaker 1: always get reinspired every year after after watching that golf
Speaker 1: tournament as it's snowing outside my I feel here.
Speaker 3: I feel like the hang at that spot would be
Speaker 3: you know, unparallel. It would just be the most laid back,
Speaker 3: you know, low key, no care in the world.
Speaker 2: Kind of place. That's it exactly. So I'd love to
Speaker 2: hear a little bit about what you're working.
Speaker 3: On these days now that you got Winter Park done,
Speaker 3: What's what's in the hopper and what what are you
Speaker 3: working on now?
Speaker 1: Well, I've got a couple of irons in the fire
Speaker 1: with potential projects and some some other projects that were
Speaker 1: you know, still continuing to work on. But now I
Speaker 1: was just hired by golf club out in Vancouver called
Speaker 1: Point Great and so I'll be there consulting architect and
Speaker 1: they want to go forward with a long range master
Speaker 1: plan and kind of reassess their their club and take
Speaker 1: you know, just kind of take a look a fresh
Speaker 1: look at it, right They they they want to take
Speaker 1: a look at what their character is or what their
Speaker 1: genre is, what their identity is, and you know, there's
Speaker 1: some trees that need to be dressed, and you know
Speaker 1: just overall just kind of starting from from the ground floor.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to be working with them, uh to
Speaker 1: help them kind of achieve their goals. And so I'm
Speaker 1: really looking forward to that as it's somewhat close to
Speaker 1: my home and you know, as I as I get
Speaker 1: more into the project, the more I'm learning about the
Speaker 1: history of Point Grant. It's it's quite fascinating with the
Speaker 1: connection that they have, you know, Saint Andrews and the
Speaker 1: Golden Adra of the nineteen twenties course, and it was
Speaker 1: laid out or designed by a golfer named David Ayton,
Speaker 1: who is you know, part of this golfing family from
Speaker 1: Saint Andrews. And we discussed this yesterday when his brothers
Speaker 1: ended up in Chicago golfing there and David ended up
Speaker 1: going to Vancouver, and you know, they ended up playing
Speaker 1: an exhibition match against you Harden Smith and Walter Hagen
Speaker 1: and just some really fascinating, uh you know, tidbits of
Speaker 1: information that I'm that I'm collecting right now and I'm
Speaker 1: starting to piece together and and the more I discovered
Speaker 1: a kind of more more interesting I get. So so yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm really excited about working with with Point Gray and
Speaker 1: and exploring a bit more on this. David Ayton the
Speaker 1: guy was and why he came out to Vancouver and
Speaker 1: designed a golf cour m hm.
Speaker 3: So, you know, with with consulting on a project, you know,
Speaker 3: it's it's a little different than getting to you know,
Speaker 3: sink your teeth in. How do you approach kind of uh,
Speaker 3: you know, conveying information and just do you is it?
Speaker 3: You know, do you have like a list of things
Speaker 3: that you want to do and and you kind of
Speaker 3: you know, go one by one, like you know, how
Speaker 3: do you lay out that master plan for a consulting
Speaker 3: word like this?
Speaker 1: Well, it's I mean, yeah, the consulting is just the
Speaker 1: beginning part, right, But I'm I'm a huge believer in
Speaker 1: the design process and how that you know, shape informs
Speaker 1: your decisions. Basically, it's, uh, you know, the last thing
Speaker 1: I want to do is come to the club like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've seen I've seen a feature that looked really cool
Speaker 1: and New York was put it here, right, Like, it's
Speaker 1: not about it's not about me, It's not about my
Speaker 1: chase or you know, because golf is you know, so
Speaker 1: subjective that it's you know, there's no right or wrong answer.
Speaker 1: There's only you know, I think better and best sort
Speaker 1: of thing as far as an answer goes. But you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a huge believer in the design process, you know,
Speaker 1: evidence based design. You know, my theory is, you know,
Speaker 1: a well researched project basically just designs itself. Right. So
Speaker 1: the first thing I do is just kind of a
Speaker 1: mass and collect as much information and data and history
Speaker 1: and you know, just take a look at what's there,
Speaker 1: you know, and then and then get their wishless the
Speaker 1: client's wish lists basically, and say well, what do you
Speaker 1: what do you guys want? Right? And a lot of times,
Speaker 1: you know, what it is that they that they thought
Speaker 1: they want isn't isn't what they wanted, right, So I
Speaker 1: don't necessarily ask them what they want. I just kind
Speaker 1: of asked who's it for? Right, And why why do
Speaker 1: you want it for them? And then I'll try to
Speaker 1: figure that out, try to get a little bit deeper
Speaker 1: into the in the subject for them, and and kind
Speaker 1: of let that guide all my decision making. So you
Speaker 1: kind of get all your you know, you get goals
Speaker 1: and objectives and and you kind of marry that with
Speaker 1: your site analysis and your site inventory and and and
Speaker 1: then you pull from pull from your own experience and
Speaker 1: what you've seen and built and and and then try
Speaker 1: to marry all those together into a concept design. And hopefully,
Speaker 1: if you've done your your research and you got your
Speaker 1: goals and objectives were all right, your concept design should
Speaker 1: address the club's needs or desires and and then some
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So that's kind of where I started basically,
Speaker 1: And that comes back down to learning that stuff from
Speaker 1: you know. The design process is the same for landscape architecture,
Speaker 1: is the same for you know, skyscraper architecture, you know,
Speaker 1: or any sort of designing is is kind of you know,
Speaker 1: the core of it is always comes from a design process,
Speaker 1: because that's that's kind of where you get into the
Speaker 1: the soul of a project and you learn, you know,
Speaker 1: why why are we doing this? Right? Yeah? It's not
Speaker 1: a not an easy question always answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So we got we got a lot of great Twitter
Speaker 3: questions and I wanted to touch on those on a few
Speaker 3: of them here. And I think the first one I
Speaker 3: thought was really interesting. I forgot to write down the
Speaker 3: person who asked us the name. Uh would destination golf
Speaker 3: work in the Canadian sand hills like it does in
Speaker 3: Nebraska sand Valley area?
Speaker 1: I mean, let me grab my crystal ball here. Would
Speaker 1: the destination golf work in the sand hills? I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like it's one of those things where good you know,
Speaker 1: who would have thought that the sand hills you know
Speaker 1: in Nebraska would have worked? Right? It's a it's a
Speaker 1: very it was a very unlikely story that changed golf
Speaker 1: course design and architecture and to eat those quite substantially.
Speaker 1: So it's hard to say no. I think you'd have
Speaker 1: to have the right person backing it, you know, the
Speaker 1: other factors. And I don't know if this is a
Speaker 1: necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but just
Speaker 1: the seasonality, you know, we're just we're just that much colder,
Speaker 1: and you know there are seasons just that much shorter,
Speaker 1: and so it would be a you know, it would
Speaker 1: be a tough kind of question from a financial point
Speaker 1: of view, you know, if that's kind of the angle
Speaker 1: that the question was was a more of a you know, financially,
Speaker 1: is it feasible or is it you know, if you're
Speaker 1: a billionaire and you want to do it, and you
Speaker 1: just want to cool golf course and making money is
Speaker 1: not the objective, then then yeah, it's definitely definitely feasible,
Speaker 1: and then everything to being a perfect place for for golf,
Speaker 1: except for the fact that there's low population and harsh,
Speaker 1: harsh climate, so you know, the isolation in the weather
Speaker 1: is are kind of the two factors. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard question to answer. I would say soap, but
Speaker 1: it depends what your criteria are.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I imagine it have to be built, and you know,
Speaker 3: if you were looking to make money, and it'd have
Speaker 3: to be very minimal and in pure golf and and
Speaker 3: built in a way that keeps all the costs really down.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe, but I mean it's like things like even
Speaker 1: just bringing power out to you know, like if you're
Speaker 1: isolated and you know, how do you how do you
Speaker 1: get power to your resort? Right it's water or even
Speaker 1: road water, road access like all that kind of stuff is.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't not necessarily think the golf is
Speaker 1: the expensive parts. The operating of the operations of the
Speaker 1: of the club would be I think the most challenging thing.
Speaker 1: I mean, you got to think of things like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we've got this beautiful piece of land, it's sand. We
Speaker 1: can sculpt this, no no problem. Build a golf course,
Speaker 1: you know, for very reasonable price. But then it's like,
Speaker 1: who's going to maintain it?
Speaker 2: M hyah?
Speaker 1: Who lives out there? You know? Where you get staff,
Speaker 1: where they stay right? So that's there's as a lot
Speaker 1: there's a lot of questions.
Speaker 3: You gotta you gotta find somebody that loves golf but
Speaker 3: also loves cold weather. It's you know, that'd be probably
Speaker 3: the tough tough thing to find. And isolation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to see that job posting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love love a cold weather.
Speaker 1: We got a job for.
Speaker 3: You and by myself for nine months.
Speaker 1: Of the year. Yeah. Do you like being alone in
Speaker 1: the dark?
Speaker 2: So Patrick Law wants to know what is the most
Speaker 2: overlooked feature on a golf course in your opinion?
Speaker 1: Overlooked feature in a golf course, I would say, you know,
Speaker 1: as weird as this might sound, you know, I would
Speaker 1: say greens. I'd say a lot of guys just don't
Speaker 1: put enough time into really sculpting or crafting interesting greens, right.
Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's an interesting thing because having built many
Speaker 1: greens for many different people, you know, you kind of
Speaker 1: learn a lot of different you know, techniques or reasons
Speaker 1: or theories and and you know what have you regarding
Speaker 1: you know, putting services and the purpose. And I feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of golf courses and this might just
Speaker 1: be a you know, a result of things is like
Speaker 1: computer aided design, and you know, the form follows function,
Speaker 1: which is probably more of what it is, you know,
Speaker 1: due to drainage, you know, does screens just have this
Speaker 1: kind of typical if we put some undulation in it,
Speaker 1: you know, we have how this looks like a shape
Speaker 1: like a potato chip, you know, and we got three
Speaker 1: exits right for water to drain off of it, and
Speaker 1: you know, make sure that we're sloping that towards the
Speaker 1: golfer so it receives the golf ball. And then that's it, right,
Speaker 1: That's all they really put into it. And you know,
Speaker 1: for me, some of the most interesting aspects of seeing
Speaker 1: cool golf courses around the world. Socially quirky golf courses
Speaker 1: is how non typical their putting surfaces are, and how
Speaker 1: how much how varied they are, and how much variety
Speaker 1: is in them. And also you know how you couldn't
Speaker 1: build some of those things today because people would say,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know how am I supposed to
Speaker 1: maintain that or where you know, you can't have one
Speaker 1: exit for water and you know you can't you can't
Speaker 1: have it sloping away from the golfer or you know,
Speaker 1: whatever whatever it is. But for me, that's kind of
Speaker 1: the that's the essence of a good golf courses is
Speaker 1: an interesting, perplexing set of greens that make me really, uh,
Speaker 1: played the course differently the second time I play it,
Speaker 1: after I learned you know, where to be, where not
Speaker 1: to be, and all those kind of things. So I
Speaker 1: think a lot of guys just don't really put the
Speaker 1: the thought into the greens as much as as perhaps
Speaker 1: they used to, or maybe back in the day it
Speaker 1: was less of a there's less criteria and it was
Speaker 1: a bit more freehand, and you know, the you know,
Speaker 1: functions very important, But to design a green based on
Speaker 1: drainage parameters well, you're going to get a green that
Speaker 1: looks like designed by drainers parameter right, So it's a
Speaker 1: tough it's a tough one. But I would say I
Speaker 1: would say greens if if I had to choose one
Speaker 1: one element on a golf course, I think is you know,
Speaker 1: critical to the sport. But it's also not getting enough thoughts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it's interesting. Somebody once said to me, and
Speaker 3: I'll never forget it. They asked me, have you ever
Speaker 3: played a great hole that doesn't have a great green?
Speaker 3: And it's it's almost impossible to think. So I mean, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's yeah, it's it's hard to do. And you know,
Speaker 3: like just like you said, you know, if you're if
Speaker 3: you're designing just for for draining, it's like you you
Speaker 3: risk the variety.
Speaker 2: Because I was while you were talking, I was thinking
Speaker 2: through you know, my course.
Speaker 3: I think might have the best greens in all of Chicago,
Speaker 3: and uh, you know it probably you know, some of
Speaker 3: the best in the world. And and I thought, you know,
Speaker 3: the first green slopes away from.
Speaker 2: You, the the.
Speaker 3: Second green slow, it has a good big back to
Speaker 3: back to front slope. The next green has a huge
Speaker 3: right to left slope. You know, the next green is
Speaker 3: small and narrow and has this left to right slope
Speaker 3: and there's just all this variety and they're simple greens,
Speaker 3: but you know, no greens like another one on the
Speaker 3: golf course, and it's just you know, that course was
Speaker 3: built in you know, nineteen hundred or eighteen ninety.
Speaker 1: Nine, Yes, and you and you notice it too when
Speaker 1: you're playing it, like that's that's the one thing. You know,
Speaker 1: my friends, when I was out there's about a month ago,
Speaker 1: I was out on the West coast there and I
Speaker 1: would played passa tempo and you know, I've heard obviously
Speaker 1: read a lot about it and heard, you know, amazing
Speaker 1: things about the greens. But man, those greens are so good.
Speaker 1: They're so good. They're so interesting. There's so much variety,
Speaker 1: and you know, and what I liked about, you know,
Speaker 1: what was done there. What Mackenzie did there was he
Speaker 1: took the green shape was kind of dictated by where
Speaker 1: it sat on the land sort of thing. So you know,
Speaker 1: the whole six thousand square foot oval thing just does
Speaker 1: not apply to there, because there's there's some narrow ones
Speaker 1: that kind of kind of snake or zigzag or kind
Speaker 1: of have an S shape. Because or even if it's
Speaker 1: you know, super wide but not deep, right, it's a
Speaker 1: you know, and it was all a product of him
Speaker 1: fitting a green into a particular area, but then using
Speaker 1: that area as the inspiration for what the green does
Speaker 1: sort of thing, you know. So it's kind of like
Speaker 1: you went, he's just really masterfully put some amazing green
Speaker 1: and they just fit the site so well. And I think,
Speaker 1: you know, a place like that, I think wouldn't be
Speaker 1: nearly wouldn't be half the golf course without the greens
Speaker 1: that they're blessed with. So I think, you know, I think,
Speaker 1: I think really you know, looking at greens from different perspectives,
Speaker 1: you know, like you mentioned, you know, whether it's the
Speaker 1: slope that sloping towards you or left or right right,
Speaker 1: the left back to the front, you know, that kind of thing,
Speaker 1: but also the shape of the green right the the
Speaker 1: you know, I think that's also something that's overlooked. And
Speaker 1: you know, I don't I may, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: don't know why. Maybe it's has something to do with
Speaker 1: it's easier to mow with a triplex, or it's the
Speaker 1: most economical to build, or it's a it's a standard
Speaker 1: that somehow seeped into the work golf, construction or design world.
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm I'm a huge fan of of
Speaker 1: oddly shaped greens like yeah, you know, shaped in the
Speaker 1: like an L or an S or you know an e.
Speaker 1: You know, like the E green. You know, those are
Speaker 1: the kinds of greens that I find the most fascinating.
Speaker 1: And you know, pass the tempoint I think just did
Speaker 1: it beautifully.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's on my bucket list of places to go see.
Speaker 3: So Ellie Phillip wants to know your top three Stanley
Speaker 3: Taps of Courses Man of the Hour.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I have to go with Damps as number one.
Speaker 1: You know, I've been very lucky to the golf that
Speaker 1: many times, and every time I golf that I just
Speaker 1: learned something new about about the place.
Speaker 2: And is that is that the course that you started
Speaker 2: working maintenance on?
Speaker 1: No is, I worked maintenance at Stuart Creek, which was
Speaker 1: you know, that was actually the golf course that I
Speaker 1: helped survey. It's kind of weird. I've kind of surveyed,
Speaker 1: then helped grow it in and then then maintained it
Speaker 1: started Stanley Thompson, Yeah, No, I have to go with Damp.
Speaker 1: It's it's timeless. It's it's obviously the you know, the
Speaker 1: sea is spectacular. But you know, the only shame is
Speaker 1: the routing has kind of been named with UH been
Speaker 1: introducing the new clubhouse back in the in the eighties,
Speaker 1: I think it was their late seventies or now it
Speaker 1: was early eighties, and they kind of injected the clubhouse
Speaker 1: on the fourth hole, which should have been the fourth hole,
Speaker 1: which is now first. And this goes back to our
Speaker 1: conversation about flow ebbs and flow kind of the you know,
Speaker 1: the how the course plays from a from a golfer's
Speaker 1: experience perspective. They've they've kind of they've changed that. They've
Speaker 1: altered it. The DNA of the of the routing has
Speaker 1: been altered. And you noticed it right because it was
Speaker 1: a it was a nine out nine in routing, which
Speaker 1: was super cool for you know, a mountain course. But
Speaker 1: you know, the Devil's culturing was kind of at the
Speaker 1: end of the you know, as you at the turnpoint
Speaker 1: and you know, it was an anticipation factor and you know,
Speaker 1: there's there's all these kind of emotions play that he
Speaker 1: did so well. And it's the opening tea shot over
Speaker 1: Spray River from on top of this cliff and it's
Speaker 1: just like, man, it would have been such a good
Speaker 1: golf course when it had first opened back you know,
Speaker 1: back in the day. So I'm a huge fan Springs fan.
Speaker 1: I could go on and on about it. Highland Link definitely,
Speaker 1: second h once again, the routing is phenomenal. Sammy Thompson
Speaker 1: I thought was a genius when it came to that,
Speaker 1: and he was able to get you, you know, from
Speaker 1: the coast up into the hills, up into the mountains,
Speaker 1: into the valleys and then back down to the coast.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's a lot of elevation that you
Speaker 1: climb but you just don't notice it. And some fantastic
Speaker 1: golf holes, some fantastic fairway conters. I love the fairway
Speaker 1: concuring out there. Just the old world, rustic dimple, you know,
Speaker 1: just just has so much character, and so does you
Speaker 1: know kpe Branton in general. So it's like it's it
Speaker 1: just fits its environment, just feel things. And then I
Speaker 1: would say, I go with Jasper, had to go with
Speaker 1: the local the local courses, you know. I Jasper is
Speaker 1: just such as it's a little bit different than Barff.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have the mountains, just looming over you, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like you can hit your golf ball
Speaker 1: off the cliffs sort of thing. But it just has
Speaker 1: this just real subtle and artfully routed and interesting golf
Speaker 1: holes that it's just it's just pleasant. Right. So I
Speaker 1: would say those are my three, but I mean there's
Speaker 1: more obscure. What I mean, Capilano fantastic. They will play
Speaker 1: that a week or two ago, and once again the
Speaker 1: routing phenomenally is able to get you all the way
Speaker 1: down down the hill. You got these just cool you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like an urban, urban kind of feel
Speaker 1: to it when you're looking at the skyline of Vancouver
Speaker 1: and it's got these big, old, you know, stumps that
Speaker 1: are kind of scattered everywhere from when they built the place,
Speaker 1: and it's got a neat character to it. But one
Speaker 1: other Stanley Thompson track. Oh, there's a there's a course
Speaker 1: in Canora, which is in Ontario, right on the Manitoba
Speaker 1: Ontario border, and it's a Stanley Thompson track and it's, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I like to think it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: like Yale. You know, it's got a built on the rock, right,
Speaker 1: and they weren't able to last all the rock away,
Speaker 1: and so they kind of just followed the contours of
Speaker 1: the of the bedrock and had some really cool, bold, bold,
Speaker 1: big undulations, big hog back plat you know, bear ways
Speaker 1: and just greens tucked tucked around the property and just
Speaker 1: has this really neat feel to it. And I don't
Speaker 1: think a lot of people played played it, but you know,
Speaker 1: Canor Golf Club is whenever I'm out in that area.
Speaker 1: That's that's kind of one of bat Mel versus the
Speaker 1: first two golf courses that I go play a lot
Speaker 1: of good Stanley Thompson tracks up here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and uh, for Americans, there's a I know, Clevel
Speaker 3: and it's got a public access one called Sleepy Hollow.
Speaker 3: I think Stanley Thompson's. Uh, it's supposed to be really good.
Speaker 3: And I've actually heard that there's a Stanley Thompson down
Speaker 3: in Florida.
Speaker 2: In like the Jacksonville area that refuses to.
Speaker 3: You know, it keeps saying it's a Donald Ross and
Speaker 3: not a Stanley Thompson because they think the value of
Speaker 3: having a Ross is greater than having a Thompson, even
Speaker 3: though it would be a rarity. And and in the
Speaker 3: US to have a Stanley Thompson designed golf course.
Speaker 1: So there's a bunch actually in the Ohio area. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there's several.
Speaker 3: It's uh yeah, we might need to do a profile
Speaker 3: on him one of these days.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would. It's a fascinating character. I mean, like
Speaker 1: all these guys, as you read more and more about them,
Speaker 1: but he was there, you know, whiskey, Drinkin's cigars smoking,
Speaker 1: died penniless, but you know, left was just a remarkable
Speaker 1: human who you know, pioneered a lot of things in
Speaker 1: golf course architecture that I think, you know, perhaps get overlooks.
Speaker 1: That would be an interesting profile for you.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I think it's also so cool that he was
Speaker 3: He grew up caddying at Toronto Golf Club, which was
Speaker 3: like Harry Colt's first Canadian design and you know, Canada's
Speaker 3: first like pre eminent golf course.
Speaker 1: It makes you wonder, like I've always wondered about that
Speaker 1: because who you know, there was no precedence back then
Speaker 1: really for routing. I mean you could go over to
Speaker 1: the British Isles and that's where all those guys kind
Speaker 1: of learned, you know, some of the craft, but you know,
Speaker 1: there was nothing really on routing, right. I mean Colt
Speaker 1: wrote about routing and he kind of pioneered a lot
Speaker 1: of the you know, returning nine and you know the
Speaker 1: way you can triangulate and loop golf holes and just
Speaker 1: of smart routing and why. But you know, makes you
Speaker 1: wonder Stanley met Colt at any point and talks because
Speaker 1: I mean, how does someone go about, you know, being
Speaker 1: new to a brand new industry right, let alone new
Speaker 1: to a profession, but there was no no one else
Speaker 1: doing it, and he gets so many things right out
Speaker 1: of the gate, especially with routing right to wonder where
Speaker 1: he picked if maybe he was just antural on it
Speaker 1: and is a very intuitive thing for him, or maybe
Speaker 1: he had some contact with someone like Colt well you know,
Speaker 1: in Toronto, and uh, the I don't know, maybe I'm
Speaker 1: just I'm just conspiracy theory right now, But I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's always boggled me how someone comes out of the
Speaker 1: gate and gets so much right without you know, ever
Speaker 1: having the failures to learn off of right he did.
Speaker 1: He did a lot of good golf courses early on
Speaker 1: in his career and some some major ones too, you
Speaker 1: know where he uh really pioneered things.
Speaker 2: I mean, you got.
Speaker 3: You have to think of the bare minimum that he
Speaker 3: looked at Toronto Golf and and used so much of
Speaker 3: what he learned from walking around there in his first design,
Speaker 3: like at the very least, and you have.
Speaker 2: To imagine, you know, you could have definitely foreseen him.
Speaker 3: You know you maybe he can for Colt and you
Speaker 3: know they talked to you know, who knows.
Speaker 1: There's a who knows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a I.
Speaker 1: Mean he was a good golfer here. That helped. But
Speaker 1: you know, I don't I don't necessarily think being a
Speaker 1: good golfer necessarily translates into knowing how to route a
Speaker 1: golf course.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I wouldn't know what how I was doing
Speaker 3: if I handed me a topography man.
Speaker 2: So hey, you know you've been more than generously at
Speaker 2: your time. We will get you out of here.
Speaker 3: On h on our our overrated underrated. It's uh, you know,
Speaker 3: a Friday podcast tradition here. So we've got we've got
Speaker 3: a couple of teed up for okay, uh playoff hockey.
Speaker 1: Oh underrated? Who's hockey on the planet after World Genius?
Speaker 2: So who's your who's your horse in the race this year?
Speaker 1: Oh, Edmonton's going all the way all the way after
Speaker 1: Calgary's just pointing lost last night. I am now fully
Speaker 1: fully on Edmonton and a huge fan of with David
Speaker 1: and I just love the the you know, relentless young,
Speaker 1: the young guns. You know, Edmonton is just such a
Speaker 1: you know, every shift type team and you know, no
Speaker 1: giving up and you know, all all of the stuff
Speaker 1: I love about hockey, Edmonton's doing right now. So in
Speaker 1: playoff hockey, it just accentuates all that. So yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's Canada's Canada's year. This year is a disappointing
Speaker 1: one last year not having anyone in there, but this
Speaker 1: year we got we got a few teams that could
Speaker 1: go all the way.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think Edmonton's a lot like my black Hawks
Speaker 3: ten years ago. You know, lots of young talent and
Speaker 3: hungry talent, and you know, they just go at it,
Speaker 3: hop hoping for a miracle for my Hawks that are
Speaker 3: now down three as.
Speaker 1: If you're gonna need one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, they if any team can do it, they can.
Speaker 3: But we'll see template holes.
Speaker 1: And I uh, it's bizarre. I don't know, I've never
Speaker 1: heard so much conversations about template holes than I have
Speaker 1: in the last five years. So I'm gonna have to
Speaker 1: go with overrated just because it's you know, it's not
Speaker 1: like it's it's kind of old news. I mean, they're
Speaker 1: they're they're fundamentally they're sound for golf, you know, that's
Speaker 1: why they you know, so prolific in architecture. But you know,
Speaker 1: I think I think taking template holes and using them
Speaker 1: as inspiration and adopting them and tweaking them, I think
Speaker 1: I think that's the Yeah, I think that's the important
Speaker 1: thing of template holes, not necessarily replicating them, if you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's so I don't know, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna go overrated. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I like the idea of the twist.
Speaker 3: You know, I came up I was writing something about
Speaker 3: the double plateau, and I came up with an idea
Speaker 3: for one, as I called the double plat bowl.
Speaker 2: Where you've got you've.
Speaker 3: Got the front to you know, you've got the one
Speaker 3: at ground level, and then you've got the one raised
Speaker 3: on the left or whatever. You could flip flop those,
Speaker 3: but then the back one is a punch bowl.
Speaker 1: That's kind of what I did for the uh for
Speaker 1: the uh Leedle Prize. Basically, the the punch bowl was
Speaker 1: obscured by a big blowpunker on the left, but then
Speaker 1: on the right you had full full visual. But it
Speaker 1: was a tricky pot to get it back there because
Speaker 1: of the because of the plateau. You had to you
Speaker 1: had to choose whether you're going to kind of put
Speaker 1: the faith in your in your iron shot and you
Speaker 1: kind of you know, landed in the punch bowl and
Speaker 1: and and you know a bit of a bit of
Speaker 1: a throwback to you know, the the Dell Hole in
Speaker 1: Ireland sort of thing where you just swing it and
Speaker 1: the anticipation of going around to see where it actually is,
Speaker 1: you know, or you or you played it kind of
Speaker 1: more strategically where you uh, you know, knock your ball,
Speaker 1: uh and and you keep it in sight and then
Speaker 1: you put the premium on your on your lag putt
Speaker 1: sort of things.
Speaker 3: So yeah, or you could run it in there, you know,
Speaker 3: it'd be cool. It's and then you use that bunker
Speaker 3: slope right as the kind of.
Speaker 2: Great mind.
Speaker 1: Nature nature did a similar thing. What you're talking about
Speaker 1: is called a platypus. Platypus cramming these two things together,
Speaker 1: building a chimera of up sorts.
Speaker 3: Yeah, seriously, I haven't thought about a platypus since like
Speaker 3: grade school.
Speaker 2: Uh so, uh, we're gonna go with a Canadian hero here,
Speaker 2: Mike Weird.
Speaker 1: Oh man, you know winning the Masters. H you know,
Speaker 1: I think for for and anyone that's one of the Masters,
Speaker 1: I think you have to say that it made an
Speaker 1: impact on golf. So and he certainly did up here
Speaker 1: in Canada. I mean, Canada doesn't really have any megastar
Speaker 1: is what you call it PGA golf? Is that you
Speaker 1: know a guy that we've all kind of we don't
Speaker 1: have our Rory Opera Roy, you know. Yeah, so he
Speaker 1: was kind of that, I suppose, and I would say,
Speaker 1: I would say underrated. I mean he was when his
Speaker 1: prime he was good.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think there there has to be,
Speaker 3: like you see, there's a.
Speaker 2: Lot of great Canadian players. Now, I asked a Canadian.
Speaker 3: I had a Canadian on my last podcast who was
Speaker 3: a PGA tour writer, Adam Starson, and he and I
Speaker 3: asked him if he if he thought there was a
Speaker 3: Mic Weir effect in Canada, and he said he thinks.
Speaker 2: So.
Speaker 3: I think I think he's I think he meant a
Speaker 3: lot to that country. And and uh, I would agree
Speaker 3: that he's underrated.
Speaker 2: You know, and then uh final one here Pete died.
Speaker 1: Hmmm. I would say underrated because of what he did
Speaker 1: for golf course architecture, right he you know, he blazed
Speaker 1: the trayal He he was the guy that kind of
Speaker 1: started stirring the pot and started creating golf courses and
Speaker 1: started implementing ideas as as controversial as they as they
Speaker 1: may be, you know, he he, he devoted the motion
Speaker 1: out of people. He got golf course architecture kind of
Speaker 1: out of the rut. I guess he'd color you know,
Speaker 1: kind of pulled it out of the pulled it out
Speaker 1: of its rut and and you know, went for it
Speaker 1: and and you know, started building architecturally sound golf courses
Speaker 1: and golf holes that you know are very you know
Speaker 1: some there might be a lot of controversy around some
Speaker 1: of them and and all that. But I mean, without
Speaker 1: without putting yourself out there, without taking that risk or
Speaker 1: that that that leap, you know, we're all going to
Speaker 1: just be doing the same thing and just kind of
Speaker 1: you know, reak or stayed in the same golf courses
Speaker 1: all over, you know, over and over, and it's just
Speaker 1: something I think that he kind of took and shook
Speaker 1: shook the hornets nest and got people inspired and got
Speaker 1: people talking about golf and golf course architecture, and you know,
Speaker 1: started doing all these you know, amazing things as far
Speaker 1: as building you know, like some you know, like the
Speaker 1: Island Green, I mean like that. You know, he was
Speaker 1: he went and did it, and so I would say
Speaker 1: he's underrated for what he did for golf course architecture.
Speaker 1: And I think history is gonna look back upon it
Speaker 1: as as that being a defining moment, right and in
Speaker 1: in in the lineage of golf course architecture, because I
Speaker 1: mean you just look at the guys who who were
Speaker 1: inspired or preceded him, right, Yeah, it's an amazing list
Speaker 1: of you know, whether it's Dope or Bill Cooorr or
Speaker 1: Rod Whitman, Right, these guys are all kind of students
Speaker 1: of the Pete Dye era, and golf is better for it.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I would agree.
Speaker 3: I think that's I think the mentorship aspect of it
Speaker 3: is is one piece that often goes overlooked. You know,
Speaker 3: he he ushered in the big change. So I'm on,
Speaker 3: I'm on the same I'm on the same boat as
Speaker 3: you there. So but Riley, I really appreciate the time,
Speaker 3: and it was it was fun having you on and
Speaker 3: we'll have to do it again, UH sometime. For those
Speaker 3: that you know wanna want to follow Riley, he's pretty
Speaker 3: active on social media. I think it's at Integrative Golf
Speaker 3: on both Instagram and Twitter, right, I think so? Yeah,
Speaker 3: I think so. You could search Riley John's too. But Riley,
Speaker 3: thanks so much for the time and we'll look forward
Speaker 3: to UH to to watching UH what's what's next for you?
Speaker 1: Thanks and appreciate it that time.
Speaker 2: Named at a consent content to anything anoder