WEBVTT - Riley Johns 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:00.760 I miss the green. 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:03.480 For example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:04.960 in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:05.920 And when I find my. 0:00:05.920 --> 0:00:08.760 Ball in a Frida Egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:11.880 Egg Friday Friday Bride Egg. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.160 Lie, I'm about ready to run off a golf course. 0:00:39.080 --> 0:00:42.280 Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back for another edition of the 0:00:42.280 --> 0:00:46.600 Friday Egg Podcast. Today we will dive back into golf 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:51.200 course architecture and we are joined by Riley Johns. Riley 0:00:51.440 --> 0:00:56.040 is an up and coming architect from Canada who recently 0:00:56.080 --> 0:01:00.800 completed his first solo design with Keith Rabb at Winter 0:01:00.960 --> 0:01:05.480 Park and has worked under great architects such as Tom Doak, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:08.520 Bill Krer, Ben Crenshaw and Rod Whitman. 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:12.920 Riley, welcome on, Thanks for having me. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:16.840 I'm a big fan of your up and coming success 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:18.880 as a as a professional podcaster. 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.120 I don't know about that after the intro music, it 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:29.880 takes a sharp decline, So I'd love to you know, 0:01:29.959 --> 0:01:32.840 I think a lot of people probably aren't familiar with 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.040 your name, but would love to hear a little bit 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.440 about your background, how you got into golf course design, 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:41.600 and a little bit about you. 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.280 Well. You know, I kind of came from I'm Canadian obviously, 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:52.400 so you know, golf is being is a big part 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:56.560 of our you know, our country up here, along with 0:01:57.320 --> 0:02:00.000 other sports like hockey. But you know, I kind of 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.360 came from a different side of things. I came from 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:07.120 more of a construction background rather than you know, I 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:11.120 was never the kid that was drawn you know, golf 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:16.840 holes on the back of his you know, restaurant place, Matt. 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:19.960 You know, I never you know, my father was never 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.400 a member at a prestigious club, and and so I 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:29.560 never really had a you know, golf centric kind of background. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.000 I came from more of a you know, I love 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:35.079 the outdoors. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:34.440 Uh. 0:02:35.520 --> 0:02:38.440 You know, I was always the kid that, you know, 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:41.160 we never had TV or anything like that. We you know, 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.560 we don't go outside and play. We'd build sports out 0:02:44.360 --> 0:02:46.640 in the forest. And you know, I was pretty lucky 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:50.200 to grow up in a in a town, mountain town 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.480 in Canada, right right next to you know, damps, and 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:57.359 it's a beautiful part of the country. So you know, 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:00.480 I spent a lot of time outdoors, and and you know, 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.080 we we you know, I was always a kid that 0:03:03.240 --> 0:03:06.799 was we'd always we'd have sandbox right, We had tongo toys, 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:09.760 and we'd you know, we we'd shape things with the 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.440 sand and build, you know on our version of a 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.760 big hydro dam and get the garden hose and fill 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:18.920 it up to the brim and you know, breach the 0:03:19.000 --> 0:03:22.360 hydro dam and watch the sandbox flood and you know, 0:03:22.520 --> 0:03:26.000 do those kinds of things. So, you know, that's kind 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:28.320 of how I grew up. And a lot of my 0:03:28.360 --> 0:03:32.239 summer jobs included outdoor you know type work, whether it 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:38.680 be land landscaping or land surveying, golf course maintenance, or 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:42.000 ski lift construction or even you know, a lot of 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:47.400 civil kind of you know, outdoor civil projects. And so 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.200 you know, I was never you know, other than being 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.880 the ball boy picking up golf balls and doing golf 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:56.600 course maintenance. I was never really part of golf until 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.400 later on in my life. And that was when I 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.080 was doing golf course maintenance that I realized that, you know, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.000 I really enjoyed golf as a sport, but also the 0:04:07.000 --> 0:04:12.560 whole design aspect, uh and the strategy that came along 0:04:12.640 --> 0:04:17.359 with it, and just the whole you know, golf as 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:21.520 being h you know, something that meet you know, the 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.520 development like that was one thing I, you know, never 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.599 thought of as as a kid growing up either was 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.839 you know, I didn't know there was even a profession 0:04:30.880 --> 0:04:34.000 out there called golf course architecture, golf course design. That 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:38.880 was something I just never thought of until I remember, Uh, 0:04:39.080 --> 0:04:43.280 we were serving land serving a golf course. Uh here 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.960 here in my hometown. My dad was a land surveyor, 0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:48.000 so I've you know, worked with him quite a bit. 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.640 And we're surveying, you know, a golf course. And this 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:55.640 was before GPS and you know that fancy technology now 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:57.880 that you can pretty much do it from from a computer. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:04:59.880 We had to go out in the into the four, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.680 into the bush and you know, a cut a cup 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:05.760 line so he could get the shot. And I remember 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:08.480 cutting his cut line and you know, about two hundred 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:12.120 yards down he said, okay, and I'll move the you know, 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:14.480 move the steak over to the left, okay, and I'll 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.360 put that on the ground now right down eighth green, right. 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:20.039 And I'm here in the middle of the forest and 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:23.720 going on eighth green right here. This doesn't make any sense. 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:25.760 And that was kind of a kind of an AHA 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:27.920 moment for me as far as wow, golf is a 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:33.120 big development and there's people that you know, are are 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.440 fundamental in the creation of golf and it's something that 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:40.279 needs to be traded. So, you know, I went on 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:47.440 to working for you know, various golf course related entities, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.320 whether it be you know, doing golf course and maintenance. 0:05:51.120 --> 0:05:53.120 You know, I worked. I worked actually at a golf 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:55.279 course here in town where I did. I worked on 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:57.719 the maintenance, true in the morning, and then I worked 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:01.719 in the kitchen at night. And so I was working 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.719 you know, twelve hour days, uh, getting up early and 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.719 staying late and just kind of lived at the golf 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.039 course for for an entire season. So I was it 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:18.680 was an interesting, you know, kind of interesting aspect. Two, 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:21.960 just to being involved in a golf course where you 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.840 can kind of see the operations from all different at 0:06:25.960 --> 0:06:29.320 different angles, was you know, that was that was pretty 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.320 interesting too. And you know as I as I you know, 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:37.640 decided to kind of take this, you know a little 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:42.560 bit further. I I, you know, sent some sent some 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:47.320 resumes out and got on a golf course contractor team 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:51.159 and started building golf in the Calgary area. You know, 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:54.000 just picking rocks on a fairway, you know, like you 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:58.640 don't there's no h there's no glorious path to say 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.120 any of this, and I don't even know if right 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:04.200 or wrong. I'm sure as you interview more people, you 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.560 realize that everyone's kind of taking their own, you know, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:09.800 path to get to. So where they went in mind 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:13.880 was a very hands on, you know, construction path, and 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.320 you know, working for a golf contractor just really opened 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:21.520 my eyes to you know, what is actually involved in 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.360 creating golf and how much goes into it, how many 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.360 people are involved, and all the nuances involved in that. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.960 And they also had fantastic you know access to some 0:07:33.120 --> 0:07:37.400 seasoned professionals and architects and a variety of you know 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.200 people in the industry who you know mentored me and 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:45.520 educated me and taught me, and you know, you know, 0:07:45.600 --> 0:07:49.560 before you know it, I was seventeen years old and 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.440 sitting in the dozer and you know, pushing dirt and 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:55.920 fell in love with it from that day and started 0:07:55.920 --> 0:08:02.280 shaping and doing some finishing work, learned drainage and learn 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:05.720 you know, I worked for irrigation contractors. I can you know, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.600 install irrigation, So I just kind of learned as much 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:13.960 as I could about about golf and golf course design 0:08:14.040 --> 0:08:19.040 and construction, you know, reading, reading golf course architecture books, 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.840 you know, while shaping on a project. Uh, you know, 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:27.240 while you know, picking picking people's brains on you know, 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:30.840 questions that I had and having access to those kind 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.080 of people was it was critical, and you know a 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:38.040 lot of them were very supportive and and you know 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.920 suggested that I, you know, I had a knack for 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:42.640 it and that I take it, you know, to the 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.480 next level and you know, keep pursuing it and encourage 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:50.280 me to basically you know, go to school was kind 0:08:50.320 --> 0:08:53.200 of the next step. You know, I'd been you know, 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:57.080 I'd worked on dozens of projects, you know, whether they 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:02.280 were brand new builds or renovations or restorations or remodels 0:09:02.400 --> 0:09:05.080 or what have you. And I want and you know, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.480 learning architecture from from books and that kind of stuff 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.080 is is good, but you know it has its, you know, 0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.040 limitations as far as what you can get out of it. 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.880 And and so you know, I've enrolled in the University 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:25.320 of Gwelph's Landscape Architecture program with the intent or the 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:30.360 focus of kind of concentrating on golf and golf design 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:34.000 and golf architecture and you know, and any sort of 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:37.320 engineering anything that you know, I took per science as 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:41.400 kind of a minor and just kind of piece together, 0:09:42.040 --> 0:09:46.040 you know, an education that I thought would be beneficial 0:09:47.400 --> 0:09:51.160 going forward, and it was fantastic. It was, you know, 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.800 I've learned so much in that in that four years 0:09:53.800 --> 0:09:57.120 of you know, things that I just wouldn't be able 0:09:57.160 --> 0:09:58.679 to kind of pull from a book. And I was 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:01.959 able to you my experience that you know, that I 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:06.880 already had, you know, ten years of shaping and and 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:11.080 building golf, so new things, you know, and having having 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.800 a lens surveying background as well, just you know, I 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.920 felt like I had a pretty good understanding of you know, 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:23.640 spatial spatial analysis and three D and development and you know, 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:26.680 contours and grading and all that stuff was you know, 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.320 pretty pretty natural to me by that point. So I 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:32.840 was able to focus my studies more on some of 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:36.360 the you know, the meat potatoes are kind of kind 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:39.880 of the nuances of design and learn, you know, learn 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:44.440 theories on you know, whether it be you know, conceal 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:49.200 and reveal, prospect refuge, or you know, any sort of 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.679 kind of landscape architecture theories. And then I started kind 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.719 of looking at that through the through the lens of 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:58.840 golf course architecture, and I, you know, I started to 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.959 find a lot of simil larities and and how and 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:07.199 and how golf course architecture and landscape architecture where they 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.360 met and where they differed. And you know, I was 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:13.040 able to kind of learn on a deeper level, I 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:16.200 suppose kind of what I wanted to get out of 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.440 a university and and so you know, that was that 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.319 was fantastic. You know, I just paid my way to 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:24.800 university was through shaping. So I was kind of just 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:29.560 immersed and golf course and golf course designed for you know, 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.960 for for a long time. And and and then you know, 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:37.080 trying to trying to get to the next level. You know, 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:39.400 we don't I don't have the luxury of having a 0:11:40.200 --> 0:11:42.640 you know, a father who was a golf course architect 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:45.880 or a professional golfer or anything like that. So you know, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.520 the next and the next step was to hound hound 0:11:49.600 --> 0:11:52.240 Tom Doak and ask him if he would ever consider, 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.560 you know, taking taking me on as a as an intern. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:01.559 And that took about three years of letter writing and 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.520 he finally said, you know what, We're got some projects 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.439 on the go and in China and a few domestically 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:11.400 and and uh just could be the right time. So 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:16.200 you know, I jumped on that opportunity. And so I know. 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:20.800 I've heard that Tom has a you know, an application 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.320 process for the internship where you kind of do a design. 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.760 Did Is that was that the case when you got 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:28.520 into the program? 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:33.800 Yes, I you know, I remember doing a design. Had 0:12:33.840 --> 0:12:37.800 it had like some contour contour maps and you do 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:42.000 design and but you know, and I don't even know 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.920 if there was an official application process when I did 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.440 it. It was more of a you know, Traverse City was 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:51.120 you know, driving from out West where I lived to 0:12:52.040 --> 0:12:55.920 you know, guelf Ontario, which is in Toronto. Basically, you know, 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.199 I was kind of going through his neighborhood, so I 0:12:58.440 --> 0:13:04.800 stopped by the office and hang out and introduce myself 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:06.920 kind of face to face sort of thing. So I 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.640 don't know if I did the application process properly, but 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:13.880 it was more of a you know, how's it going. 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.280 My name's Riley. If he was ever an opportunity to 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:19.520 you know, work with you guys, sort of learn from you, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.040 I'm you know, I'm very much like that sort of thing. 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:29.440 So yeah, I do remember some sort of contour map 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:31.120 and he came up with a designer. But I remember 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.760 that was kind of very early and maybe the first 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.600 time I I contacted him, he had something like that 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:42.880 on his website. But yeah, and then yeah, so spent 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.679 spent a year at him and and the Renaissance guys, 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:49.079 which was, you know, outstanding. I did a little a 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:53.880 little workout in China with Eric Iverson out there, and 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.400 but for the most part, you know, I was I 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:00.280 was really just looking for the office experience and and 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:05.199 you know, trying to learn the business side of the profession. 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:10.120 You know, I had enough dozer time and excavator time, 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.280 and you know, enough golf courses kind of my under 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:17.960 my belt as far as construction and implementation. But the 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.400 one thing that you just have a tough time learning 0:14:22.440 --> 0:14:26.840 about in this industry is you know, how to write 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:31.240 a consulting reporter, you know how to structure a contract 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:34.600 or you know, how do you go you know, how 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.480 do you you know all the kinds of you know, 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:42.360 business accounting and you know, structuring a company. And just 0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:45.600 like there's there's so many things that you know, you 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.040 just can't learn from a book or school and you 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:52.920 can only learn by you know, kind of placing yourself 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:57.080 in into a situation or working with someone who's done it. 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:03.600 And and Tom was u extremely open and and accommodating 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:06.600 and generous. And I spent a lot of time in 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.080 the Traverse City office helping him with you know, plans, 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.360 and going on consulting trips with him out to you know, 0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:18.560 Long Island and you know, golfing golfing with him at 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.200 Crystal Downs and being able to you know, really have 0:15:21.280 --> 0:15:23.600 a lot of one on one time with him, and 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:27.560 also being you know in the in the den, so 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.600 to speak, when you know, phone calls are happening and 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.600 you know, trying to figure out budgets and you know, 0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:38.520 working on you know, time construction timelines and you know, 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.640 getting phone calls from from clients and helping with you know, 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.600 writing up reports and stuff like that. So that was 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:48.360 kind of what I was really looking to get into 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.240 Zoo because as I'm glamorous, as a lot of people 0:15:51.240 --> 0:15:54.200 pay think that is, that's like that's a hard thing 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.200 to learn in this industry. And it was so important 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.240 he and he was so open, and it was a 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.080 it was a it was a big, you know kind 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:05.560 of piece still the gap, so to speak, for all 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:06.680 my other kind of education. 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.600 So I'm curious with Tom, you know, in having spent 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:14.000 so much time with Tom, uh, what you think is 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.280 kind of you know, you know, if you had to 0:16:16.560 --> 0:16:20.120 look at one thing that he does just extremely well 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.120 and maybe you know, the best you know of the 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.560 modern era at one aspect of design, what would you 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:27.120 say it is? 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:36.800 M hmm, you know, I would say he you know, 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:42.640 being he's very mathematical, very analytical too. I would say routing. 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.880 He's very you know, and I think that's what really 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:54.040 interests him in the profession too, is is is the 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:58.080 solving or cracking of the puzzle, you know, and then 0:16:58.120 --> 0:17:01.760 also creating a puzzle at the same time, you know, 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:03.880 which is kind of the art to the craft of 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:07.199 you know, golf course architects. You get this land, and 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.400 you get this these contours, and you get all these 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:13.399 you know, views and constraints and you know, all these 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.639 all these kind of pieces to a puzzle that you 0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:20.520 then need to kind of analyze and then and then 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:25.199 and then come up with the best solution you know, 0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:28.320 for the for that piece of land with you know, 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:31.280 the intention of you know, you have some constraints, like 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:34.439 you know, golf is eighteen holes typically and you know, 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.199 seven thousand yards is a pretty average number for you 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:40.040 know that, and you know you want a variety of 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:41.760 part threes and fours, but for the most part, you 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.520 could put you know, you could route that golf course 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.200 a million different ways on that one piece of land. 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:49.679 And you know, I think he really relishes that that 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.200 kind of challenge. And and you know, working with him 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:56.639 on the A for Students project, you know, being able 0:17:56.720 --> 0:18:02.400 to you know, sit in the office and watch and 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.879 learn and work with them on how routing of a 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:08.679 golf course not in just one direction, but two directions. 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:12.479 You know, that was like that was a master's class 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.200 and routing sort of thing. So you know, he's very 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.440 you know when it comes to to routing, he's very 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.600 you know, he's he can like another an example is 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:29.240 he's when he's when he's taling up his you know, 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:31.959 yardages or you know, wants to see what what the 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.359 power ends up being. You know, I'm maybe it's just 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:38.119 the next generation that pulls out a calculator, but he 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:39.960 just looks at it and he can he can just 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.439 crunch all those numbers and say sixty eight and seventy 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:48.080 two yards sort of thing. You're like, okay, I know, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.080 and routing is a bit of a mathematical game too, 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:54.080 and when you get into the core of it. But 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:56.840 I would say that's his you know, what he enjoys 0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:58.920 doing the most and what he's one of the best 0:18:58.920 --> 0:18:59.359 of the world. 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.760 So you've referenced you know, reading books a couple of times, 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.280 and a question I get all the time is, you know, 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.320 what are what are your favorite architecture books? And I'm 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.080 curious what you think are some of the best architecture books, 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.000 whether it's for a beginner or for somebody that's you know, 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:22.320 gotten through all the you know, the introductory materials. 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.160 There's so many out there now and there's so much 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:30.480 resources that you know, and being able to purchase books 0:19:30.520 --> 0:19:35.359 now so easy and Google an animalst Amazon. So you know, 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:41.520 my library is a little bit overgrown, is one way 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.199 of putting it. But you know, there's one book that 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.199 for beginners, Like a lot of people ask me the 0:19:49.240 --> 0:19:51.040 same question, and it's like, well, you don't want to 0:19:51.040 --> 0:19:54.679 get into you know, too heavy and stuff right out 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.840 of the gate, because it's kind of you know, probably 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.000 boring for most people, but you know, to get to 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:05.640 get a sense of golf course architecture, and but also 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:07.600 have some visuals to kind of go along with it. 0:20:07.720 --> 0:20:12.080 There's there's a book that there's Jeff Shackelford did it 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:18.160 with Michael Miller, the painters for the artists, and it's 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.879 called The Art of Golf Design, and it's it's it's 0:20:20.960 --> 0:20:24.679 kind of a coffee table book, but you know, it's 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:27.160 got a lot of good information in there, just kind 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:32.400 of has a really nice way of explaining golf course architecture. 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:37.119 It's features, it's principles, it's theories, it's you know, you know, 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:41.720 and also give some great examples of you know, it 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:44.480 in practice. But they also do this cool thing where 0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.880 they take you know, they take images or they try 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.119 to recreate what the golf course used to look like 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.639 and then paint it so like you can find like 0:20:54.920 --> 0:20:59.159 pictures of you know, Pine Valley and you know mid 0:20:59.320 --> 0:21:01.760 nineteen twenty eas and they'll do a you know, a 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:04.000 depiction of it. You know, Michael Miller will do a 0:21:04.040 --> 0:21:07.040 sweet picture of it with you know, paintings and clouds 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.439 to just animate it and bring it to life. And 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:12.359 then Jeff shack but there is like essays on you know, 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:16.919 what the you know, some of these finer features of 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:21.240 golf course architecture are like you know, temptation, you know, 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.760 just try to get into it, but not overwhelming. So, 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:26.280 you know, anyone that's kind of interested in golf course 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:30.960 architecture but doesn't want to pick up a novel, yeah, 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.119 and also wants to look at some cool pictures that 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.520 I would say the the art of golf design is 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.520 a good as a good starter. And then for something 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:43.760 that's a little bit heavier. You know one book that 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:47.520 I always liked, and it's not really heavier, but it's 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.919 the Golf has Never Failed Me, The Donald Ross Book. 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.520 I don't know if you've if you have that one, 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:54.320 if you read it, but. 0:21:54.480 --> 0:22:00.320 I haven't as I've outgrown my books. 0:22:00.760 --> 0:22:07.120 So yeah, it's a good one. It's like it's kind 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:09.879 of they've taken a bunch of notes they're almost like 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.480 diary type entries from Donald Ross and just pieced it together. 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:18.240 It's kind of like an eclectic note book that that 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.040 of of the of Donald Ross, and and he just 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:26.639 talks about just everything really everything from from turf to 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:31.919 design to construction to his opinions on things you know, 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:36.879 golf related, whether that's you know, attire or mannerisms and 0:22:36.920 --> 0:22:40.840 it and it's this kind of fascinating little book. It's 0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.320 quick to pick up. You don't have to sink into it, 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:46.920 like it's they're all segregated into small little chapters and 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:49.040 some of them are only a page long sort of thing. 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:54.200 And you know, I just always like the the way 0:22:54.200 --> 0:22:56.960 those guys wrote and spoke back in the day, Like 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.720 they had a way of saying, you know, their quotes 0:22:59.760 --> 0:23:02.560 are anything that a way of same things in one 0:23:02.600 --> 0:23:05.879 sentence that you know, in this day and age, it 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:07.760 seems like we have to use a paragraph to say 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.600 that the same thing. And they just had this this witty 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:14.720 kind of you know, way of just making their point. 0:23:14.840 --> 0:23:16.960 You know, I'm sure you've come across a lot of them, 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:19.880 and ye've seen a lot of quotes. They could summarize 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:24.680 things so beautifully and and and and succinctly. And who knows, 0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.439 maybe that's also transcended into their adult course design, that 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.159 the less is more kind of model, Right. 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:34.040 Yeah, I mean I think that they all they had 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:36.960 like a good little snarp to him too, you know. 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:40.960 Where That's something I always like is, you know, reading 0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:44.200 the old quotes and you know, these guys had had 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:47.960 so much more attitude, and in today's their quote would 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.560 just get mangled and and just you. 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:51.359 Know, picked apart. 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:53.840 But back then they could, you know, just they could 0:23:53.880 --> 0:23:55.639 just land the blast things. 0:23:55.680 --> 0:23:58.040 And I mean, in general, I. 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:01.320 Think that writing writing short and concise is a lot 0:24:01.359 --> 0:24:06.400 harder than writing you know, long. I think it's definitely 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:08.920 an art. So, you know, I think you've got a 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:12.359 really interesting background and unique background that got you into 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:13.359 the game. 0:24:13.440 --> 0:24:14.280 And you know. 0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:19.080 It, it might not be the typical path to architecture, 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:22.840 but you know, doing maintenance and learning, you know, learning 0:24:22.880 --> 0:24:26.960 about turf and and and having early experience with construction, 0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:30.520 it's had to have helped you a ton. And I 0:24:30.560 --> 0:24:34.600 know that you you are of like the design build nature. Like, 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.520 how much of an advantage do you think your background. 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:39.399 Has given you in your career? 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:48.359 Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess it's an advantage. 0:24:48.400 --> 0:24:52.159 It's a you know, I certainly rely on it heavily 0:24:52.240 --> 0:24:56.840 when when when doing design work or you know, coming 0:24:56.920 --> 0:25:01.359 up with with with ideas. It's it super helpful to 0:25:01.520 --> 0:25:06.639 have the wherewith all their ability to to not just 0:25:06.680 --> 0:25:10.439 design something, but to know exactly how to achieve it. 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:13.480 How to actually build it how it you know, what's 0:25:13.520 --> 0:25:15.720 feasible and what's not. I feel like I have a 0:25:15.720 --> 0:25:19.160 pretty good sense. It's very it's very intuitive now, right, 0:25:19.400 --> 0:25:24.439 And I think that's maybe you know, what helps me 0:25:24.520 --> 0:25:29.600 the most is just to be able to understand, you know, 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:34.000 from having mode greens you know what, you know, what 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:38.359 the what the limitations of a you know, a greens 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:41.919 mower is, or what the limitations of a fly mo 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:46.399 is when it comes to say, maintaining you know, seat faces, 0:25:46.600 --> 0:25:51.199 or you know what the implications of sands splashed up 0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:54.520 on a bunker faces and in a rainy climate and 0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:58.040 having washouts and you know all that stuff. So I 0:25:58.080 --> 0:26:02.119 think it really I think it really does help me actually, 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:08.359 and I think and I think it's you know, it 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:13.639 just really helps create a full a bigger picture, a 0:26:13.640 --> 0:26:20.000 fuller picture of the design work at hand, and it 0:26:20.480 --> 0:26:24.200 just helps inform a lot of the design decisions and 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:28.040 I and I find it's going to definitely help, you know, 0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:32.679 in the future. I'm very thankful and glad that I 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:35.959 had the opportunity to learn a lot of these, you know, 0:26:36.119 --> 0:26:40.440 from a lot of these seasoned professionals on techniques, whether 0:26:40.480 --> 0:26:43.560 that's you know, you know, understanding how an irrigation head 0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:47.240 is wired to why you know pipe sizes need to 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:51.040 be a certain size, you know, to get to water pressure, 0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:53.200 you know, efficiently from one side of the site to 0:26:53.240 --> 0:26:56.199 the other, and you know all those kind of all 0:26:56.240 --> 0:26:58.639 those things that perhaps if you were never in the 0:26:58.680 --> 0:27:03.199 trenches doing it, you might not even have an understanding 0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:06.720 on how that works or why. And who knows, maybe 0:27:07.400 --> 0:27:10.280 maybe had you had that kind of background or knowledge, 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:12.960 you might have designed something slightly different. Not that I'm 0:27:12.960 --> 0:27:18.199 saying no, well, design should definitely be you know, you know, 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:21.240 form and function and all that debate, but there's definitely 0:27:21.240 --> 0:27:24.439 something something there that's helpful. And I think it just 0:27:24.560 --> 0:27:26.760 for me, it boils down to a bit more of 0:27:26.800 --> 0:27:30.439 an intuitive kind of feel to how golf courses function 0:27:30.520 --> 0:27:31.800 after you've done building. 0:27:32.240 --> 0:27:33.880 I imagine that a golf courses. 0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:36.120 You know, when you design it, you're kind of designing 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:39.840 almost like a It's like an animal and where you know, 0:27:40.000 --> 0:27:43.280 all all the person to work together, and you know, 0:27:43.400 --> 0:27:46.400 if one of them doesn't work, it never will live 0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:49.600 up to what you know it originally was intended for. 0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:54.119 Yeah, but you know you can also you know, fall 0:27:54.160 --> 0:27:58.639 in the trap of overthinking things, over analyzing them. And 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:05.840 you know, sometimes times mistakes are what breathed life to 0:28:06.040 --> 0:28:08.600 the character of a golf course too. You know, unintended 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:13.280 mistakes could very well turn to bode well for a 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:16.879 golf whole or golf course or whatever it might be. 0:28:17.040 --> 0:28:19.679 And and just you know, it's you know, it's not 0:28:19.720 --> 0:28:24.119 like it's a skyscraper or bridge or a highway or 0:28:24.160 --> 0:28:28.800 something you know, something of that's that's yea or anything 0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:32.200 like that, but it's you know, it's a some you know, golf, 0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:35.600 it's a it's a it's a fluid process, and it's 0:28:35.640 --> 0:28:39.600 a living, breathing, you know, entity once you're done with it, 0:28:39.680 --> 0:28:42.680 and it evolves over time. With this, you know, the 0:28:42.720 --> 0:28:48.360 elements and and sometimes trying to you know, the hubrits 0:28:48.360 --> 0:28:49.880 of trying to think that you can figure it all 0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:53.600 out and control that, you know, you might be handcuffing 0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:57.480 you know, the potential of a of a golf course 0:28:57.640 --> 0:29:01.080 or a golf whole by by trying to control all 0:29:01.080 --> 0:29:03.720 those elements. And sometimes you know, and you'll talk to 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:06.000 anyone in the industry who's been been doing this for 0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:11.360 a while, like sometimes mistakes or unintended you know, things 0:29:11.360 --> 0:29:15.160 that happen on a golf course. Inspired, you know, you'll 0:29:15.200 --> 0:29:18.200 leave it or you get inspired to you know, maybe 0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:21.360 you use that too. You know, we're gonna we're gonna 0:29:21.400 --> 0:29:24.440 shape off of that. You know. Funny sometimes you know, 0:29:24.880 --> 0:29:28.040 things like irrigation blow and if a mainline blows out, 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.520 that carves this huge casm and you know, on the 0:29:30.560 --> 0:29:32.720 side of the fairway and go back to the tea 0:29:32.760 --> 0:29:35.560 and you're like, hey, and this has happened. And I'm 0:29:35.640 --> 0:29:38.760 sure a lot of people out there that similar situations 0:29:38.800 --> 0:29:42.200 happened like this. But you know, an irrigation break could 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:44.440 turn into a cool cross bunker pretty quick. 0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:48.200 Yeah, it's like almost anything. 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:51.400 Sometimes your your biggest you know, I make mistakes all 0:29:51.440 --> 0:29:55.120 the time and sometimes they work out. So I know 0:29:55.240 --> 0:29:58.640 you it seems like you're pretty well read, and I'm 0:29:58.680 --> 0:30:03.680 curious with you know what, what Golden Age architects do 0:30:03.760 --> 0:30:06.440 you have you studied the most and kind of have 0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:10.520 the most appreciation for. Maybe maybe some that you know, 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:14.640 obviously everybody loves Mackenzie, but you know some uh, some 0:30:14.840 --> 0:30:17.920 off the off the beaten path names that uh, you know, 0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:21.040 not every casual golf fan knows. 0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:26.520 Well, uh, that's a that's a tough question to I mean, 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:29.080 the reason that those guys are so popular is because 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:32.320 they were you know, they they put a lot of 0:30:32.320 --> 0:30:35.560 their thoughts and theories and principles and and all that 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.480 stuff into writing and and a lot of them were 0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:41.640 quite sounds. I mean, you know, I've taken a lot 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:46.040 from from different different architects and and and try to 0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:51.040 piece together kind of my own eclectic you know, theories 0:30:51.040 --> 0:30:55.960 and ideas and and and stuff like that. But you know, 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:59.520 I would say, not that he's obscure by any means, 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:02.040 but Smiley Thompson up here in Canada as a big, 0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:05.760 big influence for me, especially being a you know, a 0:31:05.800 --> 0:31:08.600 member and next door to the bamp Springs golf course, 0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.360 and you know, I haven't seen, seen, and played that, 0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:15.640 you know, pretty much my whole life. And you know, 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:18.240 I would say Stanley Thompson has that had a big influence. 0:31:18.280 --> 0:31:20.800 And I think he's I think he's pretty underrated too. 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:23.560 I don't know, you know, if he's just overshadowed by 0:31:23.600 --> 0:31:27.080 the Mackenzies and the Rosses and the Colts and the 0:31:27.160 --> 0:31:29.200 McDonald's and all that. But he, you know, he was 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:33.560 pretty pretty groundbreaking and his ideas, and you know kind 0:31:33.560 --> 0:31:36.640 of there was a bit of a parallel universe kind 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:39.360 of happening up here as those guys were, you know, 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:42.920 finding their stride and starting to really push the profession 0:31:43.000 --> 0:31:46.320 and and you know, discover an experiment and all that. 0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:49.240 He was doing the same thing up here, and and 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.760 he built some amazing golf courses, and you know, he 0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:57.400 thought really deeply about design. He wrote about it. Uh 0:31:57.440 --> 0:32:00.320 you know, for instance, I remember seeing this and I 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:02.920 don't even know where I've seen it. It's like a 0:32:03.000 --> 0:32:06.720 graph and Stanley Thompson judus graph. This is probably you know, 0:32:06.840 --> 0:32:11.320 nineteen twenties, and the graph kind of is his attempt 0:32:11.520 --> 0:32:16.920 at explaining ebbs and flow of a round of a routing, 0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:20.080 and how you know, it's kind of like music. How 0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:22.720 there's you know, there's a peak, and there's you know, 0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:26.600 there's an introduction and and you know you'll want to 0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:28.480 make it too hard out of the gate sort of thing, 0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:30.840 and you know where to put the parfires in the 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:33.720 trees so that so that the course, the routing has 0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:36.440 a has a has a flow to it that that 0:32:36.640 --> 0:32:40.160 is harmonious with either the land or the type of golf. 0:32:40.240 --> 0:32:42.520 It's in a golf it or what have you. And 0:32:42.720 --> 0:32:45.080 I thought that was pretty pretty groundbreaking, not just to 0:32:45.800 --> 0:32:48.200 think about it, but also then to attempt to put 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:51.000 it into some sort of you know, visuals that he 0:32:51.000 --> 0:32:53.480 could then communicate it to others. And you know, I 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:55.760 thought that was pretty pretty groundbreaking. 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:58.440 Yeah, it's interesting. You know. 0:32:58.960 --> 0:33:01.800 The round is you know, kind of like a song 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:05.240 where you know, all the great songs have some sort 0:33:05.320 --> 0:33:07.440 of a bill, like you know, it can start out 0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:10.920 strong and then but there's always like a lull or 0:33:11.120 --> 0:33:13.280 you know, some aspect of it. There has to be 0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:16.760 you know, contrasts for a golf course to be great. 0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:20.240 You know, if you know hard every hole being a 0:33:20.280 --> 0:33:23.840 ball buster is nothing anybody wants. But you know, a 0:33:24.040 --> 0:33:26.560 course that's filled with you know, short part four is 0:33:26.600 --> 0:33:29.560 also you know, you you want variety and you want 0:33:29.680 --> 0:33:33.280 different things. So it's pretty interesting to think of how 0:33:33.320 --> 0:33:35.520 he you know, kind of tried to come up with 0:33:35.560 --> 0:33:38.400 a formula like a you know, some sort of put 0:33:38.400 --> 0:33:44.080 it into context. I'm interested, you know, I I've stumbled 0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:46.600 across this question, and you know, I've been asked it 0:33:46.640 --> 0:33:49.880 a few times. What do you think about the role 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:52.320 of the first hole of a golf course because it 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:56.560 seems like, you know, there's differing logic where some people 0:33:56.640 --> 0:33:59.720 think it should be you know, a like a warm handshake, 0:33:59.840 --> 0:34:02.520 like I think it was Rainer said that it should be, 0:34:02.880 --> 0:34:06.520 you know, a friendly opening hole. I think Ross was 0:34:06.600 --> 0:34:09.080 that belief. But then there are others that think that 0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:11.279 it should be represented of the course to come. And 0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:14.239 you know, you find these you know a lot more 0:34:14.520 --> 0:34:15.600 challenging first holes. 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:17.880 You know, do you have a thought on that. 0:34:19.480 --> 0:34:24.040 Yeah, you know, it's like it's tough to you know, 0:34:24.280 --> 0:34:30.520 paint to paint every golf course with one overriding theory, right, Yes, 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:35.640 that's you know, as you know, the variety is just 0:34:35.800 --> 0:34:40.040 key in golf. And you know, if you opened every 0:34:40.080 --> 0:34:42.399 golf hole with a warm handshake, then you're getting rid 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:49.520 of variety, right, So you know there's samily Johnson also 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:51.480 spoke of it, you know, he was a proponent of 0:34:51.480 --> 0:34:57.200 the part five, you know, starting off and there's there's 0:34:57.239 --> 0:34:58.920 a couple of different ways you can look at it. 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:03.840 I think I think the one is more of a 0:35:03.920 --> 0:35:07.120 logistics point of view, right, It's it's you don't want 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:10.200 to have a log jam on your golf course, you know, 0:35:10.480 --> 0:35:12.279 after the first hole, so you don't want to make 0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:13.520 it so for instance, you don't want to make it 0:35:13.719 --> 0:35:18.360 difficult you know, long hole, wu's say, water and hazards 0:35:18.360 --> 0:35:21.120 and opportunity to lose your golf ball, and then follow 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:23.879 that up with a you know, a par three that's 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:27.000 notoriously you know three pts. So like right out of 0:35:27.040 --> 0:35:30.239 the gate, you've you've designed a you know, a one 0:35:30.320 --> 0:35:34.480 two punch that is going to start everyone's around slow. 0:35:35.000 --> 0:35:37.880 And so you know that's that has nothing to do 0:35:38.000 --> 0:35:41.719 with anything other than you you know, you've designed you 0:35:42.080 --> 0:35:44.880 can it's inherent now in that golf course, so it 0:35:45.000 --> 0:35:49.919 is important. But you know, would just sacrifice a good 0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:54.080 golf hole for the sake of it being you know, 0:35:54.600 --> 0:35:56.719 should you you know, should it be a four, should 0:35:56.719 --> 0:35:58.160 it be a five? Should it be a long five? 0:35:58.200 --> 0:36:00.799 Should it be an easy five? Should it be you 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:03.560 know all those things. I think it's really site specific. 0:36:03.719 --> 0:36:07.400 But you know, if if you twisted my rubber arm, 0:36:07.440 --> 0:36:10.799 and you know, obviously starting with a par three, not 0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:13.120 that it's not uncomm you know it's uncommon, but it's 0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:17.240 out there. You know, I wouldn't start a golf course 0:36:17.280 --> 0:36:20.040 with a par three. You know, A part four Part 0:36:20.160 --> 0:36:22.640 five I think is preferable. I'm I like the par 0:36:22.800 --> 0:36:25.600 five starting to just get the golfer out into the 0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:29.960 property quicker. And you know, a short five, you know, 0:36:30.120 --> 0:36:32.399 gives a guy an opportunity to get an eagle right 0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:34.319 out of the gate. And you know, at the end 0:36:34.360 --> 0:36:37.759 of the day, I'm all about fun golf and the 0:36:37.800 --> 0:36:43.480 experience of golf, and and if someone can start their 0:36:43.560 --> 0:36:47.080 round with a with a birdie, what's more fun than that. 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:51.160 Yeah, So I want I want to talk a little 0:36:51.160 --> 0:36:54.839 bit about your you and Keith Reb's project down at 0:36:54.920 --> 0:36:58.359 winter Park where you guys teamed up to do each 0:36:58.440 --> 0:37:02.200 of your first solo work, as I believe, and you 0:37:02.280 --> 0:37:06.040 took you know, basically a municipal nine whole course. 0:37:06.120 --> 0:37:09.000 It's it's I went and played it a couple of 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:09.600 months ago. 0:37:10.040 --> 0:37:11.960 It's a great, great little course. 0:37:12.000 --> 0:37:14.880 It's you know, shorts twenty four hundred yards, but you 0:37:14.880 --> 0:37:18.560 you really gave it a big facelift, and I think 0:37:18.600 --> 0:37:21.000 it's a it serves as a good model for you know, 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.839 the future of municipal golf with you know, interesting green 0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:30.280 complexes and and great bunkering work. But I'm curious about 0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:33.360 you know, venturing off and doing you know, what was 0:37:33.400 --> 0:37:36.160 the thing that you know you learned most from doing 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:38.239 something on your own for the first time. 0:37:40.880 --> 0:37:44.560 Hmm, you know it was he learned a lot, You 0:37:44.640 --> 0:37:47.520 learned a lot. It's not I'd just say one thing. 0:37:49.239 --> 0:37:52.239 You know, we're we're quite lucky. I mean, we we 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:55.000 surrounded ourselves with the right team, which I think you know, 0:37:55.880 --> 0:37:59.000 we kind of always knew that was critical for any 0:37:59.040 --> 0:38:03.239 project is guys that yeah, that you bring on to it. 0:38:03.400 --> 0:38:07.400 So you know, we'd learned that from other other projects thankfully, 0:38:07.440 --> 0:38:09.920 so that so we didn't make any mistakes with that. 0:38:10.040 --> 0:38:13.080 I mean, everyone that was involved in that project was 0:38:13.920 --> 0:38:15.839 the right guy for the job. And we just had 0:38:15.840 --> 0:38:20.239 such a good time building it, you know, I would 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:25.439 say working and and and also being a foreigner doing 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:27.480 working on that project, right, there was a there was 0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:32.040 another level you know, added to it for for me 0:38:32.120 --> 0:38:41.360 at least, but navigating the municipal I don't know if 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:44.799 geocracy is the right word, but just the corridors of 0:38:44.800 --> 0:38:48.200 of getting pert a project like this off the ground. 0:38:48.320 --> 0:38:55.480 So everything from you know, permitting approvals, you know, having 0:38:55.520 --> 0:38:59.440 to having to explain and and come up with designs 0:39:00.440 --> 0:39:05.920 to help communicate to people that are in you know, 0:39:06.000 --> 0:39:10.520 the municipal government who are not necessarily golfers and look 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:14.359 at this as just a you know, an infrastructure type project, right. 0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:16.440 So there, so it's not like you're dealing with a 0:39:17.640 --> 0:39:21.520 client who is all about golf and loves golf and 0:39:21.600 --> 0:39:24.120 his golf and understand, you know, you had to almost 0:39:25.080 --> 0:39:32.279 you almost had to explain very simple ideas that you 0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:37.279 almost assume most people would would would know. But when 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:39.680 you're working with a municipality, I mean they're working on 0:39:39.719 --> 0:39:43.000 all sorts of different projects, right, and they've created a 0:39:43.040 --> 0:39:45.880 committee to look at the golf course, right, just like 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:49.400 they created a committee to you know, revitalize the museum 0:39:49.560 --> 0:39:52.400 or the library. Right. It's not necessarily these people are 0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:57.160 are you know, golf fanatics. So you know, navigating you 0:39:57.200 --> 0:40:01.920 know the municipal ropes, avenues or whatever you want to 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:06.680 call it, and also educating the people who were ultimately 0:40:06.719 --> 0:40:10.080 hiring us on why we were doing things. I would 0:40:10.120 --> 0:40:13.080 say that was you know the biggest thing we learned. 0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:17.239 And you know, everything from like even things like insurance 0:40:17.320 --> 0:40:23.040 and bonding. You know, like this the very unglamorous part 0:40:23.080 --> 0:40:26.600 of the of this industry or this profession is you know, 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:30.200 all that stuff matters, and you know, we had to 0:40:30.440 --> 0:40:33.000 we had to learn it and learn it quick and 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:37.200 there was no no room to kind of stumble on something. 0:40:37.320 --> 0:40:39.680 So that was a that was a quick quick learn 0:40:39.760 --> 0:40:40.120 for sure. 0:40:40.680 --> 0:40:43.239 What what would you say about that project? 0:40:43.760 --> 0:40:46.879 Were you most proud of walking away, whether it's a 0:40:47.160 --> 0:40:50.920 you know, a specific feature or you know, just you know, 0:40:51.120 --> 0:40:53.840 something that you know occurred while you guys were on site. 0:40:56.120 --> 0:41:00.200 I would say it was the just teamwork and and 0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:03.479 and how we did it. I mean, you know, I'm 0:41:03.520 --> 0:41:06.960 sure Keith told you the story about how we you know, 0:41:07.040 --> 0:41:09.680 had everything lined up ready to go and you know, 0:41:10.000 --> 0:41:14.560 our D five somehow turned into a D three and 0:41:14.600 --> 0:41:17.680 so they delivered there. We were completely underpowered. So I 0:41:17.680 --> 0:41:20.640 mean the fact that you know, you just you just 0:41:22.239 --> 0:41:26.720 you know, spare down and get it done and and 0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:31.239 work through the problems and problem solved, and and the 0:41:31.280 --> 0:41:33.560 fact that we were able to do what we did 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:36.479 out there with a you know, essentially a D three, 0:41:37.520 --> 0:41:45.080 a little excavator, tractor trailer, and a skid you know, 0:41:45.120 --> 0:41:48.239 those were those were I think for all of us. 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:49.759 It was the fact that we were able to do 0:41:49.840 --> 0:41:52.520 it was so little I think was you know, and 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:54.239 that was what we set out to do, right. We 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:58.120 didn't want to overcomplicated or make a big production out 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:00.520 of it. We just wanted to you know, get in there, 0:42:00.680 --> 0:42:03.040 get into get into the sandbox, so to speak, and 0:42:03.080 --> 0:42:09.000 start start creating fun, interesting golf. And you know, when 0:42:09.120 --> 0:42:11.760 when we when we completed it and we walked away, 0:42:12.080 --> 0:42:15.400 I feel like we achieved achieve that goal. So that 0:42:15.520 --> 0:42:18.719 was that was the most I think rewarding aspect of 0:42:18.719 --> 0:42:19.280 that project. 0:42:19.760 --> 0:42:21.399 Yeah, I loved it. 0:42:21.520 --> 0:42:26.040 I'd recommend everybody that is in Orlando, you know, especially 0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:28.880 if you're down there for business, like, it's great to 0:42:28.960 --> 0:42:31.960 go out there and play as the sun's going down. 0:42:32.040 --> 0:42:34.080 You can get around in you know, an hour and 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:35.160 twenty minutes. 0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:39.759 And I think that's so key too, right. It's affordable, 0:42:40.320 --> 0:42:42.000 it's not going to cost you an arm in a leg. 0:42:42.040 --> 0:42:44.480 It's inclusive. You can just show up. You don't have 0:42:44.520 --> 0:42:47.640 to necessarily plan in advance or make tea times. You know, 0:42:47.680 --> 0:42:52.239 they're they're very combinating and and you know, it's it's 0:42:52.400 --> 0:42:55.759 just fun urban golf. It's it's uh, you know and 0:42:56.120 --> 0:42:57.840 one and on the same kind of thread. One of 0:42:57.840 --> 0:43:01.400 the more rewarding things too, is when we were you know, 0:43:01.480 --> 0:43:03.560 going back there and hanging out on the patio. I 0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:06.080 just loved sitting there and watching people either putt on 0:43:06.200 --> 0:43:09.280 nine or teeming off on one. And I remember seeing 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:13.000 a group of seniors, they must have been in their eighties, 0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:17.959 foursome heckling each other on the first tee and hitting 0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:20.959 it down and taking off and starting their round. And 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:23.960 right behind them was a he must have been like 0:43:24.120 --> 0:43:27.160 four maybe five, his first time on a golf course 0:43:27.200 --> 0:43:30.839 with his dad, and and the dad was telling us 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:33.360 that he'd been you know, hitting balls on the range 0:43:33.480 --> 0:43:36.560 for you know, practicing for this moment, and and and 0:43:36.719 --> 0:43:39.520 the kid was his first time on a on a 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:42.400 you know, quote unquote real size golf course, is what 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:45.160 he is, what the kid said, and his dad caddied 0:43:45.200 --> 0:43:47.040 for him. And so so now you have this, you know, 0:43:47.280 --> 0:43:50.840 four year old or five year old following a foursome 0:43:50.880 --> 0:43:55.040 of eighty five year olds and everything in between. And 0:43:55.320 --> 0:43:58.239 each each one of them are you know, experiencinging the 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:01.520 golf course and having a you know, enjoying it on 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:03.840 their own level, which I think for us was was 0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:04.560 very rewarding. 0:44:05.239 --> 0:44:07.879 Yeah, I can only imagine it's got to be really 0:44:07.920 --> 0:44:10.080 cool just to watch people play. 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:14.040 All that, like your course and everything. 0:44:15.000 --> 0:44:18.520 So I'm curious, uh, you know, with the you know, 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.799 as you're starting to build your you know, your individual 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:26.480 design career, what what would you say if you could, 0:44:26.600 --> 0:44:27.439 you know, what. 0:44:27.320 --> 0:44:28.600 Would be a dream project? 0:44:29.719 --> 0:44:33.040 You know, whether it be a particular area or a 0:44:33.080 --> 0:44:35.440 particular type of course, you. 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:37.600 Know, what what would you most want to build? 0:44:38.960 --> 0:44:45.360 Uh, that's an easy one for me. I'm I'm I 0:44:45.400 --> 0:44:49.680 love surfing, traveled traveled quite a bit surfing, and uh, 0:44:50.280 --> 0:44:55.840 you know, I think there's something, there's something connected, you know, 0:44:56.239 --> 0:44:59.720 whether it's a spiritual thing or or just the same 0:44:59.800 --> 0:45:05.080 type of I don't know, the surfing and golfing, I 0:45:05.080 --> 0:45:07.480 guess is what I'm trying to say. I have similar 0:45:07.520 --> 0:45:11.120 threats to connect and I would love to do a 0:45:11.239 --> 0:45:14.319 my dream my dream project and anyone that knows, you know, 0:45:14.360 --> 0:45:16.640 to talk about this all the time is my surf 0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:18.960 and turf resort. I call it. It's a I want 0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:21.080 to I want to find a surf break somewhere in 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:25.239 the world that also on the shore has just the 0:45:25.320 --> 0:45:31.280 perfect landscape for for golf, and it'd be cool to 0:45:31.320 --> 0:45:37.800 combine a you know, Cabot band in style golf resort 0:45:37.800 --> 0:45:40.440 where it's about just a golf right, not about the 0:45:40.440 --> 0:45:43.160 amenities and all that, but just a great piece of 0:45:43.239 --> 0:45:48.319 golf golfing terrain. But also there's a surf break and 0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:54.240 the clubhouse acts as the clubhouse for both the surfing 0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.160 people that are surfing and the people that are golfing. 0:45:57.800 --> 0:45:59.520 And you know, when there's no waves and it's not 0:45:59.560 --> 0:46:02.040 pumping out out there, you can go right, but when 0:46:02.360 --> 0:46:04.239 the waves pick up, everyone kind of goes to the 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:07.719 surf breaks. You kind of have, you know, two amenities 0:46:07.800 --> 0:46:12.480 at this one resort. And I think if partnering up 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:16.799 with a you know, a professional surfer or something like 0:46:16.840 --> 0:46:19.200 that to kind of get this off the ground would 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:22.560 be a dream job. For sure. It would be you know, 0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:24.120 I think it'd be a hit because I think I 0:46:24.120 --> 0:46:28.640 think there's a lot of you know, commonality between surfing 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:32.520 and golfing, and I think exploring that with some sort 0:46:32.560 --> 0:46:35.759 of surf and turf resort, uh, I think it would 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:36.839 be would be pretty fun. 0:46:37.480 --> 0:46:41.760 Yeah, that's uh. I have never surfed, but I've always 0:46:41.800 --> 0:46:45.319 been curious and wanted to. So you know, you'd need 0:46:45.360 --> 0:46:48.480 to have like somebody there to teach beginners like. 0:46:48.480 --> 0:46:53.239 Myself, exactly, and same with same with the surfers that 0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:59.080 can surf and want to go need less hoping. Every 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:01.880 year I watched the cow you know, the what is 0:47:01.920 --> 0:47:04.480 it not high on day anymore? Whatever that tournament is 0:47:04.520 --> 0:47:08.200 now the Champions tournament at Kapalua. Just watching those kind 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.319 of surfing in the and the whales breaching and and 0:47:11.400 --> 0:47:14.480 all that kind of stuff. It's uh. I always I 0:47:14.520 --> 0:47:17.520 always get reinspired every year after after watching that golf 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:21.640 tournament as it's snowing outside my I feel here. 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:24.600 I feel like the hang at that spot would be 0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.880 you know, unparallel. It would just be the most laid back, 0:47:29.480 --> 0:47:32.560 you know, low key, no care in the world. 0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:38.520 Kind of place. That's it exactly. So I'd love to 0:47:38.560 --> 0:47:40.520 hear a little bit about what you're working. 0:47:40.239 --> 0:47:43.919 On these days now that you got Winter Park done, 0:47:43.920 --> 0:47:46.319 What's what's in the hopper and what what are you 0:47:46.360 --> 0:47:47.080 working on now? 0:47:48.480 --> 0:47:51.400 Well, I've got a couple of irons in the fire 0:47:51.440 --> 0:47:55.400 with potential projects and some some other projects that were 0:47:55.960 --> 0:47:59.319 you know, still continuing to work on. But now I 0:47:59.320 --> 0:48:02.439 was just hired by golf club out in Vancouver called 0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:08.040 Point Great and so I'll be there consulting architect and 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:11.000 they want to go forward with a long range master 0:48:11.080 --> 0:48:16.359 plan and kind of reassess their their club and take 0:48:16.480 --> 0:48:18.479 you know, just kind of take a look a fresh 0:48:18.560 --> 0:48:21.879 look at it, right They they they want to take 0:48:21.880 --> 0:48:23.839 a look at what their character is or what their 0:48:23.880 --> 0:48:28.359 genre is, what their identity is, and you know, there's 0:48:26.880 --> 0:48:31.520 some trees that need to be dressed, and you know 0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:37.120 just overall just kind of starting from from the ground floor. 0:48:37.200 --> 0:48:40.560 And I'm going to be working with them, uh to 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:43.680 help them kind of achieve their goals. And so I'm 0:48:43.680 --> 0:48:47.280 really looking forward to that as it's somewhat close to 0:48:47.440 --> 0:48:50.399 my home and you know, as I as I get 0:48:50.400 --> 0:48:53.239 more into the project, the more I'm learning about the 0:48:53.360 --> 0:48:57.319 history of Point Grant. It's it's quite fascinating with the 0:48:57.400 --> 0:49:03.239 connection that they have, you know, Saint Andrews and the 0:49:03.239 --> 0:49:07.560 Golden Adra of the nineteen twenties course, and it was 0:49:07.640 --> 0:49:11.560 laid out or designed by a golfer named David Ayton, 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:15.560 who is you know, part of this golfing family from 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:20.520 Saint Andrews. And we discussed this yesterday when his brothers 0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:24.840 ended up in Chicago golfing there and David ended up 0:49:24.840 --> 0:49:28.280 going to Vancouver, and you know, they ended up playing 0:49:28.280 --> 0:49:32.560 an exhibition match against you Harden Smith and Walter Hagen 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:38.640 and just some really fascinating, uh you know, tidbits of 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:41.359 information that I'm that I'm collecting right now and I'm 0:49:41.400 --> 0:49:44.160 starting to piece together and and the more I discovered 0:49:44.480 --> 0:49:47.680 a kind of more more interesting I get. So so yeah, 0:49:47.719 --> 0:49:52.000 I'm really excited about working with with Point Gray and 0:49:52.000 --> 0:49:55.920 and exploring a bit more on this. David Ayton the 0:49:56.000 --> 0:49:58.040 guy was and why he came out to Vancouver and 0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:00.640 designed a golf cour m hm. 0:50:01.239 --> 0:50:05.480 So, you know, with with consulting on a project, you know, 0:50:05.560 --> 0:50:08.000 it's it's a little different than getting to you know, 0:50:08.239 --> 0:50:11.359 sink your teeth in. How do you approach kind of uh, 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:15.520 you know, conveying information and just do you is it? 0:50:15.640 --> 0:50:17.440 You know, do you have like a list of things 0:50:17.480 --> 0:50:19.400 that you want to do and and you kind of 0:50:20.400 --> 0:50:22.719 you know, go one by one, like you know, how 0:50:22.760 --> 0:50:25.640 do you lay out that master plan for a consulting 0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:26.279 word like this? 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:30.719 Well, it's I mean, yeah, the consulting is just the 0:50:31.120 --> 0:50:34.520 beginning part, right, But I'm I'm a huge believer in 0:50:34.560 --> 0:50:39.200 the design process and how that you know, shape informs 0:50:39.200 --> 0:50:42.160 your decisions. Basically, it's, uh, you know, the last thing 0:50:42.160 --> 0:50:44.000 I want to do is come to the club like, yeah, 0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:46.600 I've seen I've seen a feature that looked really cool 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:48.839 and New York was put it here, right, Like, it's 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.719 not about it's not about me, It's not about my 0:50:51.960 --> 0:50:55.239 chase or you know, because golf is you know, so 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:58.000 subjective that it's you know, there's no right or wrong answer. 0:50:58.040 --> 0:51:01.120 There's only you know, I think better and best sort 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:03.839 of thing as far as an answer goes. But you know, 0:51:04.160 --> 0:51:06.960 I'm a huge believer in the design process, you know, 0:51:07.080 --> 0:51:10.640 evidence based design. You know, my theory is, you know, 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:14.759 a well researched project basically just designs itself. Right. So 0:51:15.239 --> 0:51:17.520 the first thing I do is just kind of a 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:22.120 mass and collect as much information and data and history 0:51:22.160 --> 0:51:25.680 and you know, just take a look at what's there, 0:51:26.760 --> 0:51:30.560 you know, and then and then get their wishless the 0:51:30.600 --> 0:51:32.600 client's wish lists basically, and say well, what do you 0:51:32.640 --> 0:51:35.840 what do you guys want? Right? And a lot of times, 0:51:36.040 --> 0:51:38.760 you know, what it is that they that they thought 0:51:38.760 --> 0:51:42.840 they want isn't isn't what they wanted, right, So I 0:51:43.040 --> 0:51:45.120 don't necessarily ask them what they want. I just kind 0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:49.160 of asked who's it for? Right, And why why do 0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:50.640 you want it for them? And then I'll try to 0:51:50.760 --> 0:51:54.200 figure that out, try to get a little bit deeper 0:51:54.239 --> 0:51:56.960 into the in the subject for them, and and kind 0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:01.400 of let that guide all my decision making. So you 0:52:01.520 --> 0:52:03.680 kind of get all your you know, you get goals 0:52:03.680 --> 0:52:06.560 and objectives and and you kind of marry that with 0:52:06.600 --> 0:52:11.120 your site analysis and your site inventory and and and 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:14.440 then you pull from pull from your own experience and 0:52:14.920 --> 0:52:18.640 what you've seen and built and and and then try 0:52:18.680 --> 0:52:22.640 to marry all those together into a concept design. And hopefully, 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:25.879 if you've done your your research and you got your 0:52:26.120 --> 0:52:30.080 goals and objectives were all right, your concept design should 0:52:30.600 --> 0:52:35.919 address the club's needs or desires and and then some 0:52:35.960 --> 0:52:39.200 sort of thing. So that's kind of where I started basically, 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:42.040 And that comes back down to learning that stuff from 0:52:42.160 --> 0:52:46.520 you know. The design process is the same for landscape architecture, 0:52:46.640 --> 0:52:50.920 is the same for you know, skyscraper architecture, you know, 0:52:51.040 --> 0:52:55.239 or any sort of designing is is kind of you know, 0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:59.280 the core of it is always comes from a design process, 0:52:59.280 --> 0:53:02.880 because that's that's kind of where you get into the 0:53:02.880 --> 0:53:05.920 the soul of a project and you learn, you know, 0:53:06.880 --> 0:53:10.840 why why are we doing this? Right? Yeah? It's not 0:53:10.520 --> 0:53:12.400 a not an easy question always answer. 0:53:12.920 --> 0:53:14.120 Yeah. 0:53:14.160 --> 0:53:16.800 So we got we got a lot of great Twitter 0:53:16.920 --> 0:53:21.640 questions and I wanted to touch on those on a few 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:25.160 of them here. And I think the first one I 0:53:25.160 --> 0:53:27.880 thought was really interesting. I forgot to write down the 0:53:28.560 --> 0:53:32.440 person who asked us the name. Uh would destination golf 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:35.600 work in the Canadian sand hills like it does in 0:53:36.040 --> 0:53:38.960 Nebraska sand Valley area? 0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:46.400 I mean, let me grab my crystal ball here. Would 0:53:46.440 --> 0:53:51.560 the destination golf work in the sand hills? I don't know, 0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:56.279 Like it's one of those things where good you know, 0:53:57.040 --> 0:53:59.680 who would have thought that the sand hills you know 0:54:00.480 --> 0:54:02.680 in Nebraska would have worked? Right? It's a it's a 0:54:02.920 --> 0:54:07.480 very it was a very unlikely story that changed golf 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:12.200 course design and architecture and to eat those quite substantially. 0:54:12.320 --> 0:54:16.279 So it's hard to say no. I think you'd have 0:54:16.360 --> 0:54:20.600 to have the right person backing it, you know, the 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:22.840 other factors. And I don't know if this is a 0:54:23.560 --> 0:54:26.200 necessarily a good thing or a bad thing, but just 0:54:26.239 --> 0:54:29.760 the seasonality, you know, we're just we're just that much colder, 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:32.840 and you know there are seasons just that much shorter, 0:54:33.000 --> 0:54:35.439 and so it would be a you know, it would 0:54:35.440 --> 0:54:38.600 be a tough kind of question from a financial point 0:54:38.600 --> 0:54:40.840 of view, you know, if that's kind of the angle 0:54:40.880 --> 0:54:45.200 that the question was was a more of a you know, financially, 0:54:45.239 --> 0:54:48.839 is it feasible or is it you know, if you're 0:54:48.880 --> 0:54:50.560 a billionaire and you want to do it, and you 0:54:50.640 --> 0:54:53.000 just want to cool golf course and making money is 0:54:53.080 --> 0:54:58.120 not the objective, then then yeah, it's definitely definitely feasible, 0:54:58.160 --> 0:55:03.080 and then everything to being a perfect place for for golf, 0:55:03.360 --> 0:55:07.640 except for the fact that there's low population and harsh, 0:55:07.800 --> 0:55:10.760 harsh climate, so you know, the isolation in the weather 0:55:10.880 --> 0:55:14.640 is are kind of the two factors. But you know, 0:55:15.640 --> 0:55:18.480 it's hard question to answer. I would say soap, but 0:55:19.480 --> 0:55:21.120 it depends what your criteria are. 0:55:21.840 --> 0:55:24.759 Yeah, I imagine it have to be built, and you know, 0:55:24.760 --> 0:55:26.560 if you were looking to make money, and it'd have 0:55:26.680 --> 0:55:31.040 to be very minimal and in pure golf and and 0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:35.480 built in a way that keeps all the costs really down. 0:55:37.160 --> 0:55:39.520 Maybe maybe, but I mean it's like things like even 0:55:39.640 --> 0:55:43.399 just bringing power out to you know, like if you're 0:55:43.440 --> 0:55:46.279 isolated and you know, how do you how do you 0:55:46.280 --> 0:55:49.480 get power to your resort? Right it's water or even 0:55:49.560 --> 0:55:53.719 road water, road access like all that kind of stuff is. 0:55:54.480 --> 0:55:56.680 You know, I don't not necessarily think the golf is 0:55:56.719 --> 0:56:01.000 the expensive parts. The operating of the operations of the 0:56:01.320 --> 0:56:04.799 of the club would be I think the most challenging thing. 0:56:04.840 --> 0:56:07.160 I mean, you got to think of things like, Okay, 0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.279 we've got this beautiful piece of land, it's sand. We 0:56:09.320 --> 0:56:12.520 can sculpt this, no no problem. Build a golf course, 0:56:12.680 --> 0:56:15.719 you know, for very reasonable price. But then it's like, 0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:17.800 who's going to maintain it? 0:56:18.600 --> 0:56:19.600 M hyah? 0:56:20.000 --> 0:56:22.080 Who lives out there? You know? Where you get staff, 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:24.880 where they stay right? So that's there's as a lot 0:56:25.000 --> 0:56:26.120 there's a lot of questions. 0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:29.600 You gotta you gotta find somebody that loves golf but 0:56:29.719 --> 0:56:32.600 also loves cold weather. It's you know, that'd be probably 0:56:32.600 --> 0:56:35.440 the tough tough thing to find. And isolation. 0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:39.320 Yeah, I want to see that job posting. 0:56:39.520 --> 0:56:42.720 Yeah, I love love a cold weather. 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:43.960 We got a job for. 0:56:44.000 --> 0:56:47.560 You and by myself for nine months. 0:56:47.280 --> 0:56:50.520 Of the year. Yeah. Do you like being alone in 0:56:50.600 --> 0:56:51.000 the dark? 0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:57.480 So Patrick Law wants to know what is the most 0:56:57.560 --> 0:57:01.200 overlooked feature on a golf course in your opinion? 0:57:02.640 --> 0:57:10.799 Overlooked feature in a golf course, I would say, you know, 0:57:10.840 --> 0:57:12.680 as weird as this might sound, you know, I would 0:57:12.719 --> 0:57:16.160 say greens. I'd say a lot of guys just don't 0:57:16.160 --> 0:57:25.680 put enough time into really sculpting or crafting interesting greens, right. 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:32.439 It's yeah, it's an interesting thing because having built many 0:57:32.520 --> 0:57:36.480 greens for many different people, you know, you kind of 0:57:36.560 --> 0:57:42.880 learn a lot of different you know, techniques or reasons 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:47.160 or theories and and you know what have you regarding 0:57:47.520 --> 0:57:50.840 you know, putting services and the purpose. And I feel 0:57:50.880 --> 0:57:55.360 like a lot of golf courses and this might just 0:57:55.440 --> 0:58:00.360 be a you know, a result of things is like 0:58:01.000 --> 0:58:06.720 computer aided design, and you know, the form follows function, 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:10.400 which is probably more of what it is, you know, 0:58:10.720 --> 0:58:13.760 due to drainage, you know, does screens just have this 0:58:13.880 --> 0:58:17.280 kind of typical if we put some undulation in it, 0:58:17.280 --> 0:58:20.360 you know, we have how this looks like a shape 0:58:20.360 --> 0:58:22.880 like a potato chip, you know, and we got three 0:58:22.920 --> 0:58:25.560 exits right for water to drain off of it, and 0:58:26.080 --> 0:58:28.040 you know, make sure that we're sloping that towards the 0:58:28.080 --> 0:58:31.720 golfer so it receives the golf ball. And then that's it, right, 0:58:31.760 --> 0:58:36.400 That's all they really put into it. And you know, 0:58:36.480 --> 0:58:40.560 for me, some of the most interesting aspects of seeing 0:58:40.680 --> 0:58:43.920 cool golf courses around the world. Socially quirky golf courses 0:58:44.000 --> 0:58:49.840 is how non typical their putting surfaces are, and how 0:58:50.160 --> 0:58:52.760 how much how varied they are, and how much variety 0:58:52.840 --> 0:58:56.760 is in them. And also you know how you couldn't 0:58:56.760 --> 0:59:00.440 build some of those things today because people would say, 0:59:00.640 --> 0:59:02.080 you know, I don't know how am I supposed to 0:59:02.120 --> 0:59:04.000 maintain that or where you know, you can't have one 0:59:04.480 --> 0:59:07.800 exit for water and you know you can't you can't 0:59:07.800 --> 0:59:10.160 have it sloping away from the golfer or you know, 0:59:10.200 --> 0:59:13.440 whatever whatever it is. But for me, that's kind of 0:59:13.480 --> 0:59:17.840 the that's the essence of a good golf courses is 0:59:17.880 --> 0:59:25.880 an interesting, perplexing set of greens that make me really, uh, 0:59:26.320 --> 0:59:28.800 played the course differently the second time I play it, 0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:31.520 after I learned you know, where to be, where not 0:59:31.600 --> 0:59:32.840 to be, and all those kind of things. So I 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:35.680 think a lot of guys just don't really put the 0:59:35.680 --> 0:59:39.360 the thought into the greens as much as as perhaps 0:59:41.040 --> 0:59:43.200 they used to, or maybe back in the day it 0:59:43.240 --> 0:59:46.720 was less of a there's less criteria and it was 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.840 a bit more freehand, and you know, the you know, 0:59:50.960 --> 0:59:55.360 functions very important, But to design a green based on 0:59:55.760 --> 0:59:59.320 drainage parameters well, you're going to get a green that 0:59:59.360 --> 1:00:02.680 looks like designed by drainers parameter right, So it's a 1:00:02.720 --> 1:00:05.120 tough it's a tough one. But I would say I 1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:07.480 would say greens if if I had to choose one 1:00:08.040 --> 1:00:10.760 one element on a golf course, I think is you know, 1:00:10.840 --> 1:00:15.000 critical to the sport. But it's also not getting enough thoughts. 1:00:15.280 --> 1:00:17.640 Yeah, it's it's interesting. Somebody once said to me, and 1:00:17.680 --> 1:00:19.960 I'll never forget it. They asked me, have you ever 1:00:19.960 --> 1:00:22.840 played a great hole that doesn't have a great green? 1:00:22.880 --> 1:00:26.479 And it's it's almost impossible to think. So I mean, yeah, 1:00:27.920 --> 1:00:32.080 it's yeah, it's it's hard to do. And you know, 1:00:32.240 --> 1:00:34.600 like just like you said, you know, if you're if 1:00:34.640 --> 1:00:37.960 you're designing just for for draining, it's like you you 1:00:38.080 --> 1:00:39.640 risk the variety. 1:00:39.640 --> 1:00:41.800 Because I was while you were talking, I was thinking 1:00:41.840 --> 1:00:44.000 through you know, my course. 1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:46.920 I think might have the best greens in all of Chicago, 1:00:47.280 --> 1:00:50.120 and uh, you know it probably you know, some of 1:00:50.120 --> 1:00:52.080 the best in the world. And and I thought, you know, 1:00:52.160 --> 1:00:54.520 the first green slopes away from. 1:00:54.280 --> 1:00:56.520 You, the the. 1:00:56.040 --> 1:00:59.080 Second green slow, it has a good big back to 1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:02.080 back to front slope. The next green has a huge 1:01:02.160 --> 1:01:04.440 right to left slope. You know, the next green is 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:07.400 small and narrow and has this left to right slope 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:11.280 and there's just all this variety and they're simple greens, 1:01:11.320 --> 1:01:14.520 but you know, no greens like another one on the 1:01:14.520 --> 1:01:18.000 golf course, and it's just you know, that course was 1:01:18.040 --> 1:01:20.760 built in you know, nineteen hundred or eighteen ninety. 1:01:20.640 --> 1:01:24.040 Nine, Yes, and you and you notice it too when 1:01:24.040 --> 1:01:27.760 you're playing it, like that's that's the one thing. You know, 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:31.560 my friends, when I was out there's about a month ago, 1:01:31.640 --> 1:01:34.520 I was out on the West coast there and I 1:01:34.520 --> 1:01:39.240 would played passa tempo and you know, I've heard obviously 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:41.120 read a lot about it and heard, you know, amazing 1:01:41.120 --> 1:01:45.520 things about the greens. But man, those greens are so good. 1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:49.240 They're so good. They're so interesting. There's so much variety, 1:01:49.360 --> 1:01:51.720 and you know, and what I liked about, you know, 1:01:52.160 --> 1:01:54.600 what was done there. What Mackenzie did there was he 1:01:54.680 --> 1:01:59.040 took the green shape was kind of dictated by where 1:01:59.080 --> 1:02:03.800 it sat on the land sort of thing. So you know, 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:07.959 the whole six thousand square foot oval thing just does 1:02:08.000 --> 1:02:12.200 not apply to there, because there's there's some narrow ones 1:02:12.200 --> 1:02:15.000 that kind of kind of snake or zigzag or kind 1:02:15.000 --> 1:02:17.560 of have an S shape. Because or even if it's 1:02:17.640 --> 1:02:20.280 you know, super wide but not deep, right, it's a 1:02:20.840 --> 1:02:23.720 you know, and it was all a product of him 1:02:25.160 --> 1:02:31.880 fitting a green into a particular area, but then using 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:36.520 that area as the inspiration for what the green does 1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:38.000 sort of thing, you know. So it's kind of like 1:02:38.040 --> 1:02:43.120 you went, he's just really masterfully put some amazing green 1:02:43.240 --> 1:02:46.120 and they just fit the site so well. And I think, 1:02:46.880 --> 1:02:51.360 you know, a place like that, I think wouldn't be 1:02:52.440 --> 1:02:56.200 nearly wouldn't be half the golf course without the greens 1:02:55.920 --> 1:02:59.160 that they're blessed with. So I think, you know, I think, 1:03:00.520 --> 1:03:07.360 I think really you know, looking at greens from different perspectives, 1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:10.480 you know, like you mentioned, you know, whether it's the 1:03:10.560 --> 1:03:12.720 slope that sloping towards you or left or right right, 1:03:12.800 --> 1:03:15.520 the left back to the front, you know, that kind of thing, 1:03:15.600 --> 1:03:18.680 but also the shape of the green right the the 1:03:18.920 --> 1:03:22.200 you know, I think that's also something that's overlooked. And 1:03:24.040 --> 1:03:25.600 you know, I don't I may, I don't know. I 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:27.440 don't know why. Maybe it's has something to do with 1:03:27.560 --> 1:03:30.720 it's easier to mow with a triplex, or it's the 1:03:30.760 --> 1:03:34.440 most economical to build, or it's a it's a standard 1:03:34.480 --> 1:03:41.040 that somehow seeped into the work golf, construction or design world. 1:03:41.160 --> 1:03:44.520 But you know, I'm I'm a huge fan of of 1:03:45.120 --> 1:03:48.400 oddly shaped greens like yeah, you know, shaped in the 1:03:48.880 --> 1:03:51.760 like an L or an S or you know an e. 1:03:51.920 --> 1:03:54.120 You know, like the E green. You know, those are 1:03:54.160 --> 1:03:56.160 the kinds of greens that I find the most fascinating. 1:03:56.160 --> 1:03:59.160 And you know, pass the tempoint I think just did 1:03:59.200 --> 1:03:59.880 it beautifully. 1:04:00.120 --> 1:04:04.000 Yeah, that's on my bucket list of places to go see. 1:04:04.800 --> 1:04:09.080 So Ellie Phillip wants to know your top three Stanley 1:04:09.080 --> 1:04:11.560 Taps of Courses Man of the Hour. 1:04:13.000 --> 1:04:16.560 Yeah, well, I have to go with Damps as number one. 1:04:17.280 --> 1:04:19.480 You know, I've been very lucky to the golf that 1:04:20.880 --> 1:04:23.000 many times, and every time I golf that I just 1:04:23.080 --> 1:04:26.760 learned something new about about the place. 1:04:27.000 --> 1:04:30.200 And is that is that the course that you started 1:04:30.240 --> 1:04:31.560 working maintenance on? 1:04:33.160 --> 1:04:36.760 No is, I worked maintenance at Stuart Creek, which was 1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:41.600 you know, that was actually the golf course that I 1:04:41.600 --> 1:04:45.240 helped survey. It's kind of weird. I've kind of surveyed, 1:04:45.320 --> 1:04:47.800 then helped grow it in and then then maintained it 1:04:48.560 --> 1:04:54.880 started Stanley Thompson, Yeah, No, I have to go with Damp. 1:04:55.080 --> 1:04:59.760 It's it's timeless. It's it's obviously the you know, the 1:04:59.760 --> 1:05:03.600 sea is spectacular. But you know, the only shame is 1:05:03.960 --> 1:05:08.480 the routing has kind of been named with UH been 1:05:08.560 --> 1:05:11.560 introducing the new clubhouse back in the in the eighties, 1:05:11.600 --> 1:05:13.320 I think it was their late seventies or now it 1:05:13.360 --> 1:05:17.760 was early eighties, and they kind of injected the clubhouse 1:05:17.800 --> 1:05:20.760 on the fourth hole, which should have been the fourth hole, 1:05:20.800 --> 1:05:23.280 which is now first. And this goes back to our 1:05:23.320 --> 1:05:27.520 conversation about flow ebbs and flow kind of the you know, 1:05:27.640 --> 1:05:33.800 the how the course plays from a from a golfer's 1:05:33.840 --> 1:05:39.400 experience perspective. They've they've kind of they've changed that. They've 1:05:39.440 --> 1:05:41.320 altered it. The DNA of the of the routing has 1:05:41.320 --> 1:05:43.760 been altered. And you noticed it right because it was 1:05:43.760 --> 1:05:46.960 a it was a nine out nine in routing, which 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:49.280 was super cool for you know, a mountain course. But 1:05:49.680 --> 1:05:51.480 you know, the Devil's culturing was kind of at the 1:05:51.640 --> 1:05:54.600 end of the you know, as you at the turnpoint 1:05:54.680 --> 1:05:57.920 and you know, it was an anticipation factor and you know, 1:05:57.960 --> 1:06:02.040 there's there's all these kind of emotions play that he 1:06:02.640 --> 1:06:05.000 did so well. And it's the opening tea shot over 1:06:05.080 --> 1:06:07.400 Spray River from on top of this cliff and it's 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:09.960 just like, man, it would have been such a good 1:06:10.000 --> 1:06:13.040 golf course when it had first opened back you know, 1:06:13.160 --> 1:06:16.160 back in the day. So I'm a huge fan Springs fan. 1:06:16.240 --> 1:06:20.960 I could go on and on about it. Highland Link definitely, 1:06:21.040 --> 1:06:26.200 second h once again, the routing is phenomenal. Sammy Thompson 1:06:26.240 --> 1:06:28.280 I thought was a genius when it came to that, 1:06:28.360 --> 1:06:30.360 and he was able to get you, you know, from 1:06:30.360 --> 1:06:32.800 the coast up into the hills, up into the mountains, 1:06:32.840 --> 1:06:34.800 into the valleys and then back down to the coast. 1:06:34.840 --> 1:06:38.120 And you know, there's a lot of elevation that you 1:06:38.200 --> 1:06:41.480 climb but you just don't notice it. And some fantastic 1:06:41.520 --> 1:06:45.280 golf holes, some fantastic fairway conters. I love the fairway 1:06:45.320 --> 1:06:50.640 concuring out there. Just the old world, rustic dimple, you know, 1:06:51.000 --> 1:06:54.760 just just has so much character, and so does you 1:06:54.760 --> 1:06:57.480 know kpe Branton in general. So it's like it's it 1:06:57.600 --> 1:07:00.720 just fits its environment, just feel things. And then I 1:07:00.760 --> 1:07:04.440 would say, I go with Jasper, had to go with 1:07:04.480 --> 1:07:09.640 the local the local courses, you know. I Jasper is 1:07:09.680 --> 1:07:13.040 just such as it's a little bit different than Barff. 1:07:13.040 --> 1:07:18.240 It doesn't have the mountains, just looming over you, and 1:07:18.280 --> 1:07:20.400 it doesn't feel like you can hit your golf ball 1:07:20.920 --> 1:07:22.880 off the cliffs sort of thing. But it just has 1:07:22.920 --> 1:07:27.680 this just real subtle and artfully routed and interesting golf 1:07:27.680 --> 1:07:31.600 holes that it's just it's just pleasant. Right. So I 1:07:31.600 --> 1:07:34.480 would say those are my three, but I mean there's 1:07:34.520 --> 1:07:37.120 more obscure. What I mean, Capilano fantastic. They will play 1:07:37.160 --> 1:07:40.800 that a week or two ago, and once again the 1:07:40.880 --> 1:07:43.440 routing phenomenally is able to get you all the way 1:07:43.480 --> 1:07:47.960 down down the hill. You got these just cool you know, 1:07:48.040 --> 1:07:51.240 it's kind of like an urban, urban kind of feel 1:07:51.320 --> 1:07:53.760 to it when you're looking at the skyline of Vancouver 1:07:53.840 --> 1:07:56.960 and it's got these big, old, you know, stumps that 1:07:57.000 --> 1:07:59.880 are kind of scattered everywhere from when they built the place, 1:08:00.080 --> 1:08:04.560 and it's got a neat character to it. But one 1:08:04.560 --> 1:08:07.480 other Stanley Thompson track. Oh, there's a there's a course 1:08:07.560 --> 1:08:12.400 in Canora, which is in Ontario, right on the Manitoba 1:08:12.440 --> 1:08:16.439 Ontario border, and it's a Stanley Thompson track and it's, uh, 1:08:16.920 --> 1:08:18.840 you know, I like to think it's it's kind of 1:08:18.840 --> 1:08:21.800 like Yale. You know, it's got a built on the rock, right, 1:08:21.840 --> 1:08:24.920 and they weren't able to last all the rock away, 1:08:24.960 --> 1:08:27.040 and so they kind of just followed the contours of 1:08:27.080 --> 1:08:32.759 the of the bedrock and had some really cool, bold, bold, 1:08:32.880 --> 1:08:37.080 big undulations, big hog back plat you know, bear ways 1:08:37.160 --> 1:08:40.960 and just greens tucked tucked around the property and just 1:08:41.040 --> 1:08:42.880 has this really neat feel to it. And I don't 1:08:42.920 --> 1:08:46.479 think a lot of people played played it, but you know, 1:08:46.560 --> 1:08:49.439 Canor Golf Club is whenever I'm out in that area. 1:08:49.520 --> 1:08:51.600 That's that's kind of one of bat Mel versus the 1:08:51.600 --> 1:08:54.639 first two golf courses that I go play a lot 1:08:54.680 --> 1:08:56.479 of good Stanley Thompson tracks up here. 1:08:56.640 --> 1:08:59.920 Yeah, and uh, for Americans, there's a I know, Clevel 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:03.360 and it's got a public access one called Sleepy Hollow. 1:09:03.400 --> 1:09:08.240 I think Stanley Thompson's. Uh, it's supposed to be really good. 1:09:08.280 --> 1:09:11.840 And I've actually heard that there's a Stanley Thompson down 1:09:11.920 --> 1:09:13.280 in Florida. 1:09:13.360 --> 1:09:16.240 In like the Jacksonville area that refuses to. 1:09:18.400 --> 1:09:20.920 You know, it keeps saying it's a Donald Ross and 1:09:21.000 --> 1:09:23.439 not a Stanley Thompson because they think the value of 1:09:23.520 --> 1:09:26.679 having a Ross is greater than having a Thompson, even 1:09:26.720 --> 1:09:30.360 though it would be a rarity. And and in the 1:09:30.520 --> 1:09:33.439 US to have a Stanley Thompson designed golf course. 1:09:34.400 --> 1:09:39.280 So there's a bunch actually in the Ohio area. Yeah, 1:09:39.600 --> 1:09:40.439 I think there's several. 1:09:41.479 --> 1:09:43.879 It's uh yeah, we might need to do a profile 1:09:43.960 --> 1:09:45.120 on him one of these days. 1:09:46.320 --> 1:09:50.559 Yeah, I would. It's a fascinating character. I mean, like 1:09:50.640 --> 1:09:52.840 all these guys, as you read more and more about them, 1:09:52.840 --> 1:09:56.679 but he was there, you know, whiskey, Drinkin's cigars smoking, 1:09:57.720 --> 1:10:01.120 died penniless, but you know, left was just a remarkable 1:10:02.120 --> 1:10:06.680 human who you know, pioneered a lot of things in 1:10:06.720 --> 1:10:10.759 golf course architecture that I think, you know, perhaps get overlooks. 1:10:10.800 --> 1:10:13.439 That would be an interesting profile for you. 1:10:14.000 --> 1:10:16.600 Yeah. I think it's also so cool that he was 1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:20.680 He grew up caddying at Toronto Golf Club, which was 1:10:20.760 --> 1:10:25.960 like Harry Colt's first Canadian design and you know, Canada's 1:10:26.040 --> 1:10:28.040 first like pre eminent golf course. 1:10:29.479 --> 1:10:32.600 It makes you wonder, like I've always wondered about that 1:10:32.720 --> 1:10:35.920 because who you know, there was no precedence back then 1:10:36.080 --> 1:10:38.439 really for routing. I mean you could go over to 1:10:38.479 --> 1:10:40.280 the British Isles and that's where all those guys kind 1:10:40.280 --> 1:10:45.519 of learned, you know, some of the craft, but you know, 1:10:45.600 --> 1:10:48.719 there was nothing really on routing, right. I mean Colt 1:10:48.760 --> 1:10:51.519 wrote about routing and he kind of pioneered a lot 1:10:51.600 --> 1:10:56.320 of the you know, returning nine and you know the 1:10:56.320 --> 1:10:59.320 way you can triangulate and loop golf holes and just 1:11:00.479 --> 1:11:03.960 of smart routing and why. But you know, makes you 1:11:04.040 --> 1:11:09.400 wonder Stanley met Colt at any point and talks because 1:11:09.400 --> 1:11:13.800 I mean, how does someone go about, you know, being 1:11:13.880 --> 1:11:16.599 new to a brand new industry right, let alone new 1:11:16.640 --> 1:11:19.160 to a profession, but there was no no one else 1:11:19.200 --> 1:11:22.160 doing it, and he gets so many things right out 1:11:22.160 --> 1:11:27.040 of the gate, especially with routing right to wonder where 1:11:27.200 --> 1:11:30.240 he picked if maybe he was just antural on it 1:11:30.320 --> 1:11:33.719 and is a very intuitive thing for him, or maybe 1:11:33.760 --> 1:11:37.000 he had some contact with someone like Colt well you know, 1:11:37.080 --> 1:11:41.400 in Toronto, and uh, the I don't know, maybe I'm 1:11:41.400 --> 1:11:45.559 just I'm just conspiracy theory right now, But I don't know. 1:11:45.720 --> 1:11:48.200 That's always boggled me how someone comes out of the 1:11:48.200 --> 1:11:51.920 gate and gets so much right without you know, ever 1:11:52.360 --> 1:11:55.960 having the failures to learn off of right he did. 1:11:56.160 --> 1:11:58.960 He did a lot of good golf courses early on 1:11:59.040 --> 1:12:02.840 in his career and some some major ones too, you 1:12:02.920 --> 1:12:06.800 know where he uh really pioneered things. 1:12:07.080 --> 1:12:07.760 I mean, you got. 1:12:07.880 --> 1:12:10.240 You have to think of the bare minimum that he 1:12:10.560 --> 1:12:13.840 looked at Toronto Golf and and used so much of 1:12:13.880 --> 1:12:17.360 what he learned from walking around there in his first design, 1:12:17.439 --> 1:12:20.040 like at the very least, and you have. 1:12:19.960 --> 1:12:23.719 To imagine, you know, you could have definitely foreseen him. 1:12:23.960 --> 1:12:26.600 You know you maybe he can for Colt and you 1:12:26.640 --> 1:12:28.759 know they talked to you know, who knows. 1:12:29.000 --> 1:12:30.240 There's a who knows. 1:12:30.360 --> 1:12:32.080 Yeah, it's a I. 1:12:32.000 --> 1:12:34.559 Mean he was a good golfer here. That helped. But 1:12:35.920 --> 1:12:38.400 you know, I don't I don't necessarily think being a 1:12:38.400 --> 1:12:41.760 good golfer necessarily translates into knowing how to route a 1:12:41.960 --> 1:12:42.759 golf course. 1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:44.960 Right, Yeah, I wouldn't know what how I was doing 1:12:45.040 --> 1:12:47.160 if I handed me a topography man. 1:12:48.479 --> 1:12:53.479 So hey, you know you've been more than generously at 1:12:53.520 --> 1:12:55.320 your time. We will get you out of here. 1:12:55.520 --> 1:12:59.320 On h on our our overrated underrated. It's uh, you know, 1:12:59.400 --> 1:13:02.840 a Friday podcast tradition here. So we've got we've got 1:13:02.880 --> 1:13:10.840 a couple of teed up for okay, uh playoff hockey. 1:13:10.120 --> 1:13:19.040 Oh underrated? Who's hockey on the planet after World Genius? 1:13:19.240 --> 1:13:22.280 So who's your who's your horse in the race this year? 1:13:23.320 --> 1:13:26.400 Oh, Edmonton's going all the way all the way after 1:13:27.120 --> 1:13:30.759 Calgary's just pointing lost last night. I am now fully 1:13:31.320 --> 1:13:34.400 fully on Edmonton and a huge fan of with David 1:13:35.200 --> 1:13:40.679 and I just love the the you know, relentless young, 1:13:40.920 --> 1:13:43.559 the young guns. You know, Edmonton is just such a 1:13:44.760 --> 1:13:48.880 you know, every shift type team and you know, no 1:13:49.040 --> 1:13:52.080 giving up and you know, all all of the stuff 1:13:52.120 --> 1:13:55.280 I love about hockey, Edmonton's doing right now. So in 1:13:55.360 --> 1:13:59.160 playoff hockey, it just accentuates all that. So yeah, it's 1:13:59.240 --> 1:14:04.560 it's it's Canada's Canada's year. This year is a disappointing 1:14:04.560 --> 1:14:06.880 one last year not having anyone in there, but this 1:14:07.000 --> 1:14:09.760 year we got we got a few teams that could 1:14:09.760 --> 1:14:10.439 go all the way. 1:14:10.880 --> 1:14:14.200 Yeah, I think Edmonton's a lot like my black Hawks 1:14:14.240 --> 1:14:16.720 ten years ago. You know, lots of young talent and 1:14:16.880 --> 1:14:19.160 hungry talent, and you know, they just go at it, 1:14:19.600 --> 1:14:22.240 hop hoping for a miracle for my Hawks that are 1:14:22.400 --> 1:14:23.719 now down three as. 1:14:23.600 --> 1:14:26.360 If you're gonna need one. 1:14:26.680 --> 1:14:29.320 Yeah, yeah, they if any team can do it, they can. 1:14:29.720 --> 1:14:34.519 But we'll see template holes. 1:14:36.960 --> 1:14:41.280 And I uh, it's bizarre. I don't know, I've never 1:14:41.360 --> 1:14:44.160 heard so much conversations about template holes than I have 1:14:44.240 --> 1:14:48.680 in the last five years. So I'm gonna have to 1:14:48.760 --> 1:14:52.640 go with overrated just because it's you know, it's not 1:14:52.720 --> 1:14:55.800 like it's it's kind of old news. I mean, they're 1:14:56.080 --> 1:15:01.320 they're they're fundamentally they're sound for golf, you know, that's 1:15:01.360 --> 1:15:08.280 why they you know, so prolific in architecture. But you know, 1:15:08.360 --> 1:15:12.280 I think I think taking template holes and using them 1:15:12.320 --> 1:15:17.719 as inspiration and adopting them and tweaking them, I think 1:15:18.120 --> 1:15:21.120 I think that's the Yeah, I think that's the important 1:15:21.120 --> 1:15:24.360 thing of template holes, not necessarily replicating them, if you 1:15:24.400 --> 1:15:27.439 know what I mean. It's so I don't know, I'm 1:15:27.439 --> 1:15:28.960 gonna go overrated. Yeah. 1:15:29.000 --> 1:15:30.719 I like the idea of the twist. 1:15:31.120 --> 1:15:33.920 You know, I came up I was writing something about 1:15:33.960 --> 1:15:36.840 the double plateau, and I came up with an idea 1:15:36.920 --> 1:15:39.360 for one, as I called the double plat bowl. 1:15:39.800 --> 1:15:42.000 Where you've got you've. 1:15:41.840 --> 1:15:44.360 Got the front to you know, you've got the one 1:15:44.400 --> 1:15:47.320 at ground level, and then you've got the one raised 1:15:47.360 --> 1:15:50.719 on the left or whatever. You could flip flop those, 1:15:50.760 --> 1:15:53.639 but then the back one is a punch bowl. 1:15:55.200 --> 1:15:58.000 That's kind of what I did for the uh for 1:15:58.160 --> 1:16:03.760 the uh Leedle Prize. Basically, the the punch bowl was 1:16:03.800 --> 1:16:06.439 obscured by a big blowpunker on the left, but then 1:16:07.040 --> 1:16:10.360 on the right you had full full visual. But it 1:16:10.400 --> 1:16:12.200 was a tricky pot to get it back there because 1:16:12.240 --> 1:16:14.880 of the because of the plateau. You had to you 1:16:14.880 --> 1:16:17.400 had to choose whether you're going to kind of put 1:16:17.400 --> 1:16:19.479 the faith in your in your iron shot and you 1:16:19.720 --> 1:16:22.439 kind of you know, landed in the punch bowl and 1:16:22.439 --> 1:16:24.840 and and you know a bit of a bit of 1:16:24.880 --> 1:16:28.479 a throwback to you know, the the Dell Hole in 1:16:28.560 --> 1:16:30.560 Ireland sort of thing where you just swing it and 1:16:31.479 --> 1:16:34.240 the anticipation of going around to see where it actually is, 1:16:34.960 --> 1:16:36.760 you know, or you or you played it kind of 1:16:37.360 --> 1:16:41.360 more strategically where you uh, you know, knock your ball, 1:16:42.040 --> 1:16:44.920 uh and and you keep it in sight and then 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:46.960 you put the premium on your on your lag putt 1:16:47.000 --> 1:16:47.479 sort of things. 1:16:47.520 --> 1:16:50.200 So yeah, or you could run it in there, you know, 1:16:50.560 --> 1:16:53.799 it'd be cool. It's and then you use that bunker 1:16:53.880 --> 1:16:55.800 slope right as the kind of. 1:16:58.120 --> 1:16:58.919 Great mind. 1:17:00.240 --> 1:17:02.559 Nature nature did a similar thing. What you're talking about 1:17:02.680 --> 1:17:10.479 is called a platypus. Platypus cramming these two things together, 1:17:11.160 --> 1:17:13.560 building a chimera of up sorts. 1:17:13.800 --> 1:17:17.559 Yeah, seriously, I haven't thought about a platypus since like 1:17:17.640 --> 1:17:18.600 grade school. 1:17:19.000 --> 1:17:22.800 Uh so, uh, we're gonna go with a Canadian hero here, 1:17:22.920 --> 1:17:23.880 Mike Weird. 1:17:27.040 --> 1:17:35.400 Oh man, you know winning the Masters. H you know, 1:17:35.680 --> 1:17:39.040 I think for for and anyone that's one of the Masters, 1:17:39.080 --> 1:17:41.720 I think you have to say that it made an 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:45.559 impact on golf. So and he certainly did up here 1:17:45.600 --> 1:17:53.120 in Canada. I mean, Canada doesn't really have any megastar 1:17:53.200 --> 1:17:55.960 is what you call it PGA golf? Is that you 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:59.360 know a guy that we've all kind of we don't 1:17:59.360 --> 1:18:02.439 have our Rory Opera Roy, you know. Yeah, so he 1:18:02.560 --> 1:18:04.880 was kind of that, I suppose, and I would say, 1:18:04.960 --> 1:18:09.200 I would say underrated. I mean he was when his 1:18:09.200 --> 1:18:10.000 prime he was good. 1:18:10.760 --> 1:18:13.920 Yeah, I mean I think there there has to be, 1:18:14.000 --> 1:18:14.960 like you see, there's a. 1:18:14.960 --> 1:18:18.400 Lot of great Canadian players. Now, I asked a Canadian. 1:18:18.560 --> 1:18:21.200 I had a Canadian on my last podcast who was 1:18:21.439 --> 1:18:24.880 a PGA tour writer, Adam Starson, and he and I 1:18:24.880 --> 1:18:26.960 asked him if he if he thought there was a 1:18:27.000 --> 1:18:30.360 Mic Weir effect in Canada, and he said he thinks. 1:18:30.400 --> 1:18:30.479 So. 1:18:31.040 --> 1:18:33.320 I think I think he's I think he meant a 1:18:33.360 --> 1:18:36.360 lot to that country. And and uh, I would agree 1:18:36.400 --> 1:18:37.360 that he's underrated. 1:18:37.760 --> 1:18:43.120 You know, and then uh final one here Pete died. 1:18:46.920 --> 1:18:52.400 Hmmm. I would say underrated because of what he did 1:18:52.520 --> 1:18:57.839 for golf course architecture, right he you know, he blazed 1:18:57.880 --> 1:19:01.840 the trayal He he was the guy that kind of 1:19:02.040 --> 1:19:08.200 started stirring the pot and started creating golf courses and 1:19:08.280 --> 1:19:13.360 started implementing ideas as as controversial as they as they 1:19:13.400 --> 1:19:17.559 may be, you know, he he, he devoted the motion 1:19:17.640 --> 1:19:22.519 out of people. He got golf course architecture kind of 1:19:22.520 --> 1:19:26.240 out of the rut. I guess he'd color you know, 1:19:26.320 --> 1:19:28.400 kind of pulled it out of the pulled it out 1:19:28.400 --> 1:19:31.400 of its rut and and you know, went for it 1:19:31.560 --> 1:19:39.479 and and you know, started building architecturally sound golf courses 1:19:39.520 --> 1:19:42.840 and golf holes that you know are very you know 1:19:42.920 --> 1:19:45.280 some there might be a lot of controversy around some 1:19:45.360 --> 1:19:48.080 of them and and all that. But I mean, without 1:19:48.479 --> 1:19:52.120 without putting yourself out there, without taking that risk or 1:19:52.120 --> 1:19:55.680 that that that leap, you know, we're all going to 1:19:55.800 --> 1:19:59.040 just be doing the same thing and just kind of 1:19:59.240 --> 1:20:01.559 you know, reak or stayed in the same golf courses 1:20:01.600 --> 1:20:03.519 all over, you know, over and over, and it's just 1:20:03.680 --> 1:20:06.920 something I think that he kind of took and shook 1:20:07.160 --> 1:20:11.000 shook the hornets nest and got people inspired and got 1:20:11.000 --> 1:20:14.800 people talking about golf and golf course architecture, and you know, 1:20:14.880 --> 1:20:19.400 started doing all these you know, amazing things as far 1:20:19.439 --> 1:20:22.400 as building you know, like some you know, like the 1:20:22.400 --> 1:20:24.280 Island Green, I mean like that. You know, he was 1:20:24.920 --> 1:20:26.960 he went and did it, and so I would say 1:20:26.960 --> 1:20:30.160 he's underrated for what he did for golf course architecture. 1:20:30.160 --> 1:20:33.840 And I think history is gonna look back upon it 1:20:33.960 --> 1:20:39.880 as as that being a defining moment, right and in 1:20:39.479 --> 1:20:42.320 in in the lineage of golf course architecture, because I 1:20:42.320 --> 1:20:45.000 mean you just look at the guys who who were 1:20:45.080 --> 1:20:49.320 inspired or preceded him, right, Yeah, it's an amazing list 1:20:49.439 --> 1:20:53.360 of you know, whether it's Dope or Bill Cooorr or 1:20:53.479 --> 1:20:57.480 Rod Whitman, Right, these guys are all kind of students 1:20:57.600 --> 1:21:02.200 of the Pete Dye era, and golf is better for it. 1:21:02.240 --> 1:21:03.879 So yeah, I would agree. 1:21:04.040 --> 1:21:06.800 I think that's I think the mentorship aspect of it 1:21:06.840 --> 1:21:10.360 is is one piece that often goes overlooked. You know, 1:21:10.479 --> 1:21:14.600 he he ushered in the big change. So I'm on, 1:21:15.840 --> 1:21:18.080 I'm on the same I'm on the same boat as 1:21:18.120 --> 1:21:22.200 you there. So but Riley, I really appreciate the time, 1:21:22.240 --> 1:21:23.880 and it was it was fun having you on and 1:21:23.920 --> 1:21:27.400 we'll have to do it again, UH sometime. For those 1:21:27.520 --> 1:21:30.719 that you know wanna want to follow Riley, he's pretty 1:21:30.720 --> 1:21:33.960 active on social media. I think it's at Integrative Golf 1:21:34.479 --> 1:21:39.280 on both Instagram and Twitter, right, I think so? Yeah, 1:21:39.640 --> 1:21:43.920 I think so. You could search Riley John's too. But Riley, 1:21:43.960 --> 1:21:46.439 thanks so much for the time and we'll look forward 1:21:46.479 --> 1:21:50.040 to UH to to watching UH what's what's next for you? 1:21:51.800 --> 1:21:53.400 Thanks and appreciate it that time. 1:22:00.640 --> 1:22:10.920 Named at a consent content to anything anoder