1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Three little girl scouts, ages eight, nine, 2 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: and ten yanked from their tents in the middle of 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:30,280 Speaker 1: a rainy summer night, horribly raped and murtyred. The only 4 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: named suspect, Jane Hart, tried and acquitted. This case goes 5 00:00:38,680 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 1: unsolved nearly fifty years until a local high school teacher 6 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:51,000 Speaker 1: uncovers four potential suspects, igniting I knew investigation, I Nancy Grace, 7 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us 8 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:58,800 Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Serious leven. This week we 9 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 1: follow the exclusion seventy Fox Nation series and the Girls 10 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: Scout murders. First of all, take a listen to this. 11 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: These woods in northeastern Oklahoma are the site of one 12 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: of the worst crimes imaginable. Two busloads of girl Scouts 13 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: left Tulsa headed for Camp Scott, a girl Scout retreat 14 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: located on the Cherokee Reservation some fifty miles away. Among 15 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: the girls were ten year old Denise Milner, nine year 16 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: old Michelle Gouse an eight year old Laurie Farmer. What 17 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: happened next is unthinkable. Three young girls being sexually assaulted, murdered. 18 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: There are children's names you always remember Laurie and Denisa Michelle. 19 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: They're there and they're never going to go away with me. 20 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: Right now, very special guest to my own heart. This 21 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: is Laurie Lee Farmer's mother. Laurie Lee just eight years 22 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: old when she was murdered during the Girl's Scout murders. 23 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,520 Speaker 1: Miss Sherry Farmer is with us. Miss Farmer. Thank you 24 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,839 Speaker 1: for being with us. Thank you so much. I don't 25 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: feel right about you thanking me. I'm just sorry for 26 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 1: what you have gone through, not just at the time, 27 00:02:35,200 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: but all these years since then, dealing with the murderer 28 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: of your eight year old girl, probably replaying it in 29 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: your mind over and over, what happened to her before 30 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: her murder, the identification of Jean Hart, the trial, the acquittal, 31 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: and now the possibility that other people are responsible for 32 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: your daughter's murder and they are walking amongst us, living 33 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 1: and breathing. It. Just I don't know how you keep going, 34 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: Miss Farmer. First of all, let me ask you what 35 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 1: you recall of the moment you sent your daughter a 36 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: girl Scout camp and then learned what had happened. Well, 37 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: of course it plays out like a movie, as you 38 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: know yourself. We actually my husband received a phone call 39 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: at the hospital where he is a physician, and was 40 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: told over the phone, and he was not told that 41 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: she had been murdered, just that she had died in 42 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: the night. So it took throughout that day to piece 43 00:03:56,160 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: together what really happened. We had no idea for cause 44 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: of death or that two other children had also been murdered, 45 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: So that is a hard, strange way to learn about 46 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: your daughter's murder. We from the very first were very 47 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: active and involved and searching for the suspect, all of 48 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 1: the work with the USBI, the sheriff's office, the district 49 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: attorney's office, and from really that very beginning. For some reason, 50 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,919 Speaker 1: though and I felt we needed to be very vocal, 51 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: and here we are forty five years later and we 52 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 1: still feel that same way. We thought it was important 53 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: for Laurie and for justice, so throughout that they searched 54 00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 1: for heart for ten months, and that it was another 55 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: year before a trial, and yes we were at the 56 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: trial every day and into the not guilty verdict. We 57 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: did feel like that we wanted to do something positive 58 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:22,799 Speaker 1: and we always have felt that way to that Laurie's 59 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: life and what she stood for and what we stood 60 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: for as a family that something positive and good needed 61 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: to come from her life. Miss Farmer. After my fiance's murderer, 62 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 1: I thought I knew it all about pain and suffering 63 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: in grief. It was right for our wedding, and it 64 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: took me, sadly, well over twenty years before I could 65 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: even consider marriage right. It just my whole life was 66 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: spent grieving and fighting and never coming up for air, 67 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: not even once. I just don't know how you get 68 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 1: past that. And I've got to ask you a tough question. 69 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:19,760 Speaker 1: Do you believe Jane Heart is guilty? I certainly believe 70 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: he was there, and yes, I do believe that. It 71 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,599 Speaker 1: has taken me a long time to come to that point. 72 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: I don't know that I am convinced there is no 73 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 1: one else who was thicker. Why are you convinced Heart 74 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: was part of it? The evidence, a lot of it 75 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: certainly is circumstantial, But like I said, it's over the years. 76 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: I didn't come to that conclusion just immediately, but now, 77 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: through all the things that has happened in their case 78 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: over the years. It's not like it was investigated then 79 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: and suddenly now. Thanks if happened in our case throughout 80 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: these years, that are not publicized, and I feel like 81 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: that the investigators have been good about keeping going I informed, 82 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: and we don't go to the news media and talk 83 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: about it every time there is I call it another 84 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle. But and we have appreciated that 85 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: as Fate started this process, she did invove us and 86 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 1: she kept us updated as to what they were doing, 87 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: and that's been really important to us. So I think 88 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:48,320 Speaker 1: there are some questions about who was there, and we 89 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:55,119 Speaker 1: are always open to any any new leads, are things 90 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: that might come up. All we have ever wanted from 91 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: the very first is the truth. We didn't jump on 92 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: a bad wagon that it had to be hard or 93 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: anyone else for that matter. We just have searched for 94 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: the truth. You know, Miss Farmer. For those of you 95 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: just tuning in, this is Lori Lee, Farmer's mother, her daughter, 96 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: Sherry's daughter. Lorial Lee was raped and murdered at the 97 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: tender age of eight. I've got to say, Miss Farmer again, 98 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: I thought I knew it all about grief, But now 99 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: that I finally have children, I don't think there could 100 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 1: be any grief worse in the world than losing your child. 101 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: And you are such a better person than me. You 102 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: have so much dignity and you're so calm. I think 103 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: I don't believe there was ever a prosecutor in intercity Atlanta. 104 00:08:55,000 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: I'm more hated than me. I'm not proud. Just all 105 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:09,200 Speaker 1: of that raw hurt and anger. Focus laser beam on 106 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: getting the right purpose. And you are saying you, of 107 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: all people, are saying you believe there could be other 108 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: suspects right now. I always pay attention to what a 109 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: victim's family thanks, because they, of all people, want the 110 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: right guy behind bars. So if the family believes it, 111 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: then I believe it. I can't even imagine anyone ever 112 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:47,959 Speaker 1: assuming that we would want anyone to be held accountable 113 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: for this crime who was not the guilty person. Absolutely, 114 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: because a it would be horrible to be responsible for 115 00:09:56,320 --> 00:10:01,079 Speaker 1: a wrongful incarceration to live every dat ha ha ha. 116 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:03,439 Speaker 1: I got the wrong person in jail who could live 117 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: with that? And the flip side of that coin is 118 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: the right person is out there walking free time stories 119 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:31,079 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. A lot of the reigniting of this 120 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: investigation has to do with a teacher, Faith Phillips, also 121 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: Cherokee screenwriter and author of Now I Lay Me Down, 122 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:47,719 Speaker 1: who became suspicious herself and began researching, began asking the questions, 123 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:54,599 Speaker 1: Miss Farmer, how did you learn that Lori Lee have 124 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: been killed? As I said, my husband was called by 125 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: the director of Girl Scout, and then he and his 126 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: partner came home and told me and Lourie was Actually 127 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: I always think of her as nine because her birthday 128 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: was in five days, so you know, I know she's 129 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: referred to all the time as eight, but we were 130 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: preparing for her ninth birthday just five days away, and 131 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: she is our oldest child. Our children at that time 132 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: were Laurie, nine, seven, five, three and one. I always 133 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: wanted four children and we had five. Are you lucky 134 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 1: lady regarding that many children? But regarding Laurie Lee, did 135 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: you call her Laurie Lee or Laurie mostly Laurie? Do 136 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: you remember that moment your husband told you that Laurie 137 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: had been killed? Well, he didn't say she had been killed, 138 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: because we did not know that. He said Laurie had 139 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: died in the night. Right, So we are trying to 140 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: figure out where were you sitting on the sofa in 141 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: the bedroom and the kitchen sink. We were in the 142 00:12:10,480 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: living room and he and his partner said, we need 143 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: for you to sit down. Oh yeah, and I said, no, 144 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: I'm not sitting down, and Bow told me, and he looked. 145 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,439 Speaker 1: He looked like I'd never ever seen him look before. 146 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 1: And then we spent next hours wondering what happened to 147 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,199 Speaker 1: her and trying to reach the Girl's Scouts because we 148 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: assume that who knew what happened, but we did not know. Actually, 149 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: our neighbor, who had been with us a lot of 150 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: the time, said to us, I think there might have 151 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:00,120 Speaker 1: been some violence involved, and we said, what, what, What 152 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: in the world do you leave? And he said, we 153 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: just got to get in touch with the Girl's Scouts 154 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 1: so that someone will come talk to you. And that 155 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:16,559 Speaker 1: never happened. So eventually our neighbors and friends, as they 156 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: collected at our home were the ones who told us 157 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: that someone and that it was two other children. We 158 00:13:24,240 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: didn't know that either. You know, that's interesting to doctor 159 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: Scott A. Johnson, forensics psychologists out of Minnesota. You can 160 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:35,079 Speaker 1: find it at Forensic Consultation, doctor Johnson. When I was 161 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: first told that Keith, my fiance, was dead, I didn't 162 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: know any of the facts surround again him. Of course, 163 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: I later learned he had been murdered. But I just 164 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,680 Speaker 1: assumed you've been in a car crash. And it wasn't 165 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: until several hours later. I was at my local little 166 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: Methodist church and nowhere else to go, and I was 167 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: sitting across a desk from our pastor and I saw 168 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:02,240 Speaker 1: him writing I read it upside down Bernstein funeral, Hume, 169 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:04,960 Speaker 1: that's what I need for sure, that Keith was dead. 170 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: And he Billy told me Keith was murdered. Why is 171 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 1: it we try to look forward, just even subconsciously, for 172 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 1: a rational explanation. It's just the shock value. We do 173 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: not want to believe our loved ones one. And you 174 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: certainly don't want to believe that it was nefarious, you know. 175 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: And I think that if you were not prepared, how 176 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: to health you prepared for that? You don't. And so 177 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: when we hear that news, our brain goes into protective mold. 178 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: You want to minimize and I and that's just the 179 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: self protective nature. Guys, take a listen to this. I 180 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 1: was given the name of the three people whom I 181 00:14:48,240 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: and foreign Lish were involved in the murder count. One 182 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: of the suspects was given the job of going to 183 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: dump the vehicle, the murder weapons, and the bloody clothes. 184 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: I get this letter in my mailbox and I said, Paul, 185 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 1: I think you've got a fourth man. Paul Smith was 186 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: the sheriff of May's County after Pete Weaver. The day 187 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: he took office, he opens a file cabinet. All of 188 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: the files are gone. Sheriff Weaver's son said, well, I 189 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: have a box of transcripts that my dad kept in 190 00:15:25,520 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: the garage all these years. If there was much more 191 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 1: in this collection of files than I had any idea. Wow, 192 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: you're hearing the voice of Faith Phillips, who reignited this investigation. 193 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: Faith hearing miss Farmer, who you are often in touch with, 194 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,760 Speaker 1: that she believes there could be other suspects. Does that 195 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: vindicate your investigation? It's wonderful to hear from Sherry. I 196 00:15:57,760 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: have from the very beginning to be extremely considerate of 197 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: the families. The last thing, the worst thing that could 198 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: possibly happen, was to cause them more pain. So to 199 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: hear her say that it's a possibility in her mind 200 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: that there could be more than one person, it is 201 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: just a relief to me. Guys. I'm wanting to hear 202 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: this about the preliminary hearing. At the preliminary hearing, the 203 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: prosecution presents a number of pieces of evidence that they 204 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: say connect Jeane Hart to the murders and which the 205 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: judge admits into trial. Among them, our items authority said 206 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 1: we're found in the cave were hearts supposedly hit out 207 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: after the murders. The first of which our professional photographs 208 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 1: of women. The photographer that Jean Herd had worked with 209 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: at Greated State Prison confirmed that he had developed those 210 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,760 Speaker 1: photos with Jane Hart when he was an assistant while 211 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: he was working in jail. Secutors also claimed that sperm 212 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:05,440 Speaker 1: found on a pillowcase at the crime scene match sperm 213 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: found on Jean's underwear from prison, and that hairs found 214 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: on the duck tape, but the crime scene we're tested 215 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: and determined to be from a Native American. Everything that 216 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: was just said is true, except when you hear that 217 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: DNA from sperm found at the crime scene match sperm 218 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: found belonging to Gene Hart to suspect that was tried 219 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,719 Speaker 1: and acquitted. It's not the one in four million type 220 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: of a DNA match. At that time, that kind of 221 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: DNA match didn't exist. There's no such thing. It turned 222 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: out to be that it was one in seventy seven 223 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: hundred likelihood the sperm match. Now to me, that's pretty strong, 224 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: but it's not the kind of DNA we look for now, 225 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: Sherry Farmer, do you know whether the DNA found at 226 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:01,679 Speaker 1: the crime scene has been retested using modern DNA technology 227 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: many times? Many times? And what happens It became more 228 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: narrowed as to the likelihood that it was genuinely roy 229 00:18:11,840 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: Hard crime stories with Nancy Grace, So let me ask 230 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,080 Speaker 1: to another guest joining us, and you've heard her name 231 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 1: many many times as doctor Kristen Middleman, the chief development 232 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: officer at author M Lab. You can find her and 233 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 1: her husband, also doctor Middleman. This is doctor Kristin Middleman 234 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: joining us now at DNA solves dot com. And I'm 235 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: gonna tell you author AMA worked on many, many cases 236 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: where AUTHORM was involved. One of their specialties is to 237 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: take old DNA. Do great a DNA DNA that's been underwater, 238 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: DNA mixed with other DNA DNA that's mixed with mud 239 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 1: or dirt or whatever substance, and get an answer. Doctor 240 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 1: Kristen Middleman, thank you for being with us. From off 241 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: RAMLEB what should be done with the DNA from the scene. 242 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: We've got Jane Hart's DNA. I assume they have enough 243 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: to continue testing it. But doctor Middleman, what kind of 244 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: test should be being run right now in twenty twenty two. Oh, 245 00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: in my opinion, if there is any DNA evidence left, 246 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: because unfortunately, hearing the it's been tested many many times, 247 00:19:40,440 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: actually scares me. Every time you test DNA, you consume it. 248 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: Can't you regenerate it? No, there's no way to regenerate DNA, 249 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: and from a crime scene such as this one, you 250 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: have a limited amount of DNA and so because and 251 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: that's honestly when these cases remain solved. So if there 252 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: is DNA left, and of course there's a possibility of 253 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 1: touch DNA, epithelial DNA, which I don't think has ever 254 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 1: been done, what kind of tests should be being done 255 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: right now? It has been done with epithelial DNA as well. 256 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: We just identified with GBI and the SBI the murderer 257 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: of Stacey Lee to Horsky was her name. Where I'm 258 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:26,920 Speaker 1: trying to get all the cases together, and we did 259 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: it from touch DNA on the pan. You know, I'm 260 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: saying in this case and the girls Scott murders case. Yes, 261 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: I absolutely believe that that the most advanced DNA technology 262 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: should be used first, and that is SNIP testing rather 263 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: than SDR testing, and it's sequencing, and it allows you 264 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: to get hundreds and hundreds of thousands of markers from 265 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: that DNA profile rather than just the twenty SCR markers 266 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: that you're going to compare. And the ability to get 267 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of thousands of monkers allows you not 268 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: only to be able to confirm identity and say yes, 269 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: it was this person or no it wasn't in this 270 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 1: case Gene, it also allows you to be able to 271 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: identify who the person may have been and get information 272 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: about who the person was, whether you know that identity 273 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 1: or not, and so whether we're suspecting the right person 274 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 1: or not, whether there is another person involved, or whatever 275 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: the situation is. In this case, you would be able 276 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: to actually infer the identity of the person that left 277 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: that seaman at the crime scene. And because DNA is, 278 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: like I said, DNA testing is a destructive process, I 279 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: would start with the type of testing that would give 280 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: you the most amount of information, and that is exactly 281 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: what we do here at also We've got a question 282 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 1: to Sharry Farmer. This is Loyally Farmer's mother. Sharry, you 283 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: studied that the DNA have been tested several times over 284 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: the years with new technology, and at each time it 285 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: more narrowly and better identified gene heart. I think that 286 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: is correct. I have kept up with all of that, 287 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: but I don't feel real comfortable talking about which DNA. Oh. 288 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: I understand, Yeah, but we yes, we have kept up 289 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 1: with things as they have progressed. Good to know, Fate Phillips. 290 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: Did you know about the continued DNA testing that goes 291 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: back to heart? I did. I was aware of that, 292 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: and I've been following it. And I think that the 293 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,639 Speaker 1: quote that most often is used in the media is 294 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:46,240 Speaker 1: that there was a three out of five prong match, 295 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: but that was at the time. The three out of 296 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,680 Speaker 1: five prong match was back at the time, and that 297 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 1: continues to be what is referred to as far as 298 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 1: there's nothing that can be reported as a conclusive match 299 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 1: by the official Let me understand something. James Powell is 300 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: with me. James Robert Bob Powell, former Senior Agent Oklahoma 301 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: State Vieer of Investigation, called into this case. I believe 302 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: in twenty eighteen. You can find them at the Investigator 303 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 1: LLC James Bob Powell. What can you tell me about 304 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: continued DNA efforts and what if anything they had revealed. 305 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: We requested that the two suspects we had in Cherokee 306 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: County have their DNA taken by OSPI, and as far 307 00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:42,000 Speaker 1: as I know, that was done a couple of years ago, 308 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 1: and I don't know the results of that. It's never 309 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: been presented to me on what the results of that 310 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: DNA was. I know I did check with him a 311 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 1: couple of years ago, and at that time they'd taken 312 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,280 Speaker 1: the DNA, but they had not submitted it. But one 313 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 1: thing to keep in mind, I think in both face 314 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: case and in mine, we're looking at two different sets 315 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: of suspect X. But we're not necessarily saying that because 316 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: there's no DNA of our suspects there, that they weren't involved. 317 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: We think they could have been accessories or peripheries, or 318 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: they could have been witnesses. They could have participated and 319 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: not left DNA. So I agree that the DNA that's 320 00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:20,480 Speaker 1: been tested so far points to Jeane Hart, maybe not conclusively, 321 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: but I would say if I were sitting on a jury, 322 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: it would probably be more than a reasonable doubt if 323 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: he left that DNA that we're talking about now. So 324 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,479 Speaker 1: what I understand is that Sheriff Reid, who grew up 325 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: in May's County, was just a boy when the murders occurred, 326 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: took over and vowed that he would get the answer 327 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: to the girls Scout murders. Now, a year after Reid 328 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: took over the case, he and OSBI, Oklahoma State Beera 329 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: of Investigation went to the National Center for miss Exploited 330 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 1: Sheldon and twenty three of the best homicide investigators. FBI 331 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 1: analysis reached the decision they believe gene Hart, who was 332 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: tried and acquitted, was at the very least involved. But 333 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: when it comes to retesting of DNA, what do we know? 334 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott joining me, Professor Forensics, Jackonville 335 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: State University and the Star Wing you hit body backs with, 336 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, what do you believe the retesting? Well, 337 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 1: you know, we do know this. We know that there 338 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: were three sexual assaults, that's what they're calling them. And 339 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: I think, from again an evidence gathering perspective at autopsy, 340 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: i'd like to know how robust the examination was that 341 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: they conducted, if they did actual rape kits, what the 342 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: status of those kits are. Kristen had mentioned a moment 343 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: ago regarding the destructive nature of the DNA testing. Have 344 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: they been preserved herd up to this moment? How much 345 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: sample is left? And we have to go back to 346 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: the hair that was also found at that time, Nancy. 347 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: And you know when they when they identified that hair, 348 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: they used the methodology that's referred to as you're you're 349 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: looking at the morphology of the hair, which means the 350 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: origin of it based upon a catalog that they have, 351 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: and they say it was Native American. That doesn't mean anything. 352 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: Now the idea is do they still have that hair sample? 353 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: My question would be about the knot Joe Scott, the 354 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: knot that was tied and getting epiphilial or touch DNA 355 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: from the knot. I don't know that that's ever been 356 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: done well. Touch DNA is so very fragile, Nancy. It's 357 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 1: so very fragile. Remember it's only a partial sample. You know, 358 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 1: you compare it to something like I don't know, calculm 359 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: for instance, that can fall off very easy. It's very 360 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,840 Speaker 1: very fragile and hard to deal with it. It's not 361 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: as robust to say if you get it from a 362 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: blood sample or from a seaman sample and that sort 363 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: of thing. So when you talk about touch DNA, I 364 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: really shocked if there was anything left. But that's true. 365 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: That's true that it's a lot less robust than getting 366 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: from blood. But DNA does actually laugh quite a bit, 367 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: and we have been able to identify a perpetrator from 368 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,240 Speaker 1: rope that was found from a case that is over 369 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: forty seven years old. In this case, another issue is 370 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: a bloody footprint that was found at the scene that 371 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: people argue did not belong to Heart. Now, according to 372 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,320 Speaker 1: Sheriff Reid, he believes it is very logical to assume 373 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: that the print was from someone innocently walking into the 374 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: scene because we all know the scene was very chaotic 375 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: in the crime scene processing. Is that possible, faith Phillips, Well, 376 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: you know, I want to say at the top here 377 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: that I have a great respect for law enforcement, and 378 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,119 Speaker 1: that's important for me to get out there. I have 379 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: family in law enforcement, and so I believe that OSBI 380 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: and this and share Free genuinely believe and are convinced 381 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: that it was GANE. Heart acting alone. And so I 382 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: want to state that right off the top. But this, 383 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 1: all of this information has been coming in, including the shoeprints. 384 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: So we have that bootprint, this jungle bootprint. This jungle 385 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: bootprint is all over the crime scene and in addition 386 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: to another the cave in some other places. Then we 387 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: have a tennis shoe print. Right. And then when you 388 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: take those things and you add in this box of 389 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,439 Speaker 1: information that I got from her beweaver that points to 390 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 1: gene Heart, then this makes me think that maybe everybody 391 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: is right and wrong at the same time. Guys, take 392 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: a listen to this. It's very important to understand this 393 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: trial was before DNA had not become a tool that 394 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: could be used either to prove innocent or guilt. There 395 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: were hairs found on the duct tape that the girls 396 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: had been bound up with that was what was described 397 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: as Native American hair. They used that to try and 398 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: implicate hard because of course he was a Cherokee. That 399 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: was not good science to believe that hair could be matched, 400 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: though DNA testing is not yet available. The prosecution also 401 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: claims that sperm samples taken from Jeane Hart's underwear were 402 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: similar to the sperm found in one of the girls. 403 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: There was important evidence on the scene which tended to 404 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 1: exonerate hard. There was a bloody footprint on the floor 405 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: of the ten and it was not hards footprint. It 406 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: was a wrong songe. There was a thumb print found 407 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: on the flashoom and it was not Hard. So there 408 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: was exonerating evidence found there as well as evidence then 409 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: implicated it. There was things there that we what do 410 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 1: I want you to believe that someone else either involved 411 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,760 Speaker 1: or did the calme joining me Nathan E. Clark high 412 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: profile a lawyer or out of Tulsa. Nathan, thank you 413 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: for being with us. What do you make of it? 414 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 1: It's a complicated pattern and it's been one that's been 415 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: looked at. But that's what's so remarkable about what's happening now. 416 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: The Cherokee nations looking at it. And if you think 417 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: about the Cherokee Nation being there to protect and provide 418 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: and govern the Cherokee people, the Cherokee people have confidence 419 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: in the Cherokee Nation and they have trust, and that 420 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: is what I'm hopeful is going to lead to new 421 00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: information from the witnesses who are Cherokee about what actually 422 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: happened that day forty five years ago. I'm very cherious. 423 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 1: I think at this point there's so much gossa, there's 424 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: so many rumors floating that other suspects may be involved 425 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: in addition to or excluding gene Hart, But where is 426 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 1: any real evidence? And I keep going back to DNA, 427 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: d oxo ribo nucleic acid. Jessica Morgan, We've heard some 428 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: speakers saying that looking at a hair under a microscope, 429 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: you cannot determine if it is Native American. It's my understanding, 430 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 1: having used that technology in rape cases, that you can 431 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 1: determine if the hair is from a Caucasian, Asian, African 432 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: American and Native American. Is that not correct? Yeah? Yeah, 433 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: you can. So why would they say that you can't 434 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: tell that? Well, I think that probably what they're saying 435 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: is they can say that it is in fact from 436 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: that particular grouping, all right, but you can't put a 437 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 1: fine point on it. You can't put a fine scientific 438 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 1: point on it like you can today. And that's what 439 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: you're faced with at this moment time. It's been known 440 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: for a long long time in forensics that we can 441 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,440 Speaker 1: study the morphology of hair and talk about the racial grouping, 442 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: that it's going to fall in based upon the way 443 00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: it looks, and that's the way it has always been done, 444 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: or was done up to a point. Now that technology 445 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 1: is not considered to be cutting edge when you compare 446 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,200 Speaker 1: it to what Kristen and her husband are involved in. Now, absolutely, 447 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:18,760 Speaker 1: I mean why I say, oh, it was a white 448 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 1: guy when you could say, oh, it was Jeff Scott 449 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: actually joining us right now from Jacksonville State University. Why 450 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: stay with just a white guy. So, yes, it's almost obsolete. 451 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: But you know, back to Sherry Farmer, this is Lorie 452 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,840 Speaker 1: Farmer's mother who has lived with this case all these years. 453 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: I was reading something that your husband both said, here's 454 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,120 Speaker 1: a quote. Every bit of information we've gotten over the 455 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: last forty years has just continued to nail it down 456 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: more and more. That the DNA result test results quote 457 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: solidified his belief heart was in fact responsible for the crime. 458 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: I think that he has a belief in what has 459 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: the testing and things that have been done up until 460 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: this time, and I think he feels more certain than 461 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: I have been over the long haul. But yes, I 462 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: guess I have faith maybe this may be placed in 463 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: the right places we are and remain friends with the 464 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: original OSB agents who worked on our case through the 465 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: present time, and like Fate said about people her belief 466 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: in the justice system, I just find it hard to 467 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: believe that any of the people that we have been 468 00:33:53,720 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 1: working with all this time have done something maliciously to 469 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: make it be hard. I just don't feel that that 470 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: has happened. And I am still close to Mike Wilkerson 471 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: and Harvey Pratt and original agents who worked on our case. 472 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 1: We are very close with Mike Read and present OSB agents, 473 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:34,160 Speaker 1: particularly Andrea, And nothing about this just suddenly came to 474 00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: light like yesterday. Anytime new things have come up and 475 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:44,319 Speaker 1: people have been kind enough to approach us as Faith did. 476 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:52,240 Speaker 1: All this time, there have been different equations into the picture, 477 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: and so it's hard for me to say right here, 478 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: nothing that's been done as adequate are there is one 479 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: answer that nobody has ever talked about in forty five years, 480 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: it's I just have a hard time in my heart 481 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: believing that. I think one of the most interesting things 482 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:23,280 Speaker 1: is how a National Center for Missing the Exploited Children 483 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,879 Speaker 1: got involved. This was a friend of Laurie's from elementary 484 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: school who was greatly affected by Laurie's murder. And she 485 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: chose to be a victim's advocate with mac mac and 486 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: she reached out to us probably eight or so years 487 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:47,359 Speaker 1: ago and told us who she was and how much 488 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 1: Laurie had meant to her, and she asked if we 489 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,439 Speaker 1: would like to have the National Center become involved, and 490 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: we said, of course, let's do that, and they sent 491 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: an agent here and we met with him and then 492 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: a week in Washington going over all of the evidence. 493 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: And those people certainly do not have any reason to 494 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:22,479 Speaker 1: want to have a wrong person mentioned as the one 495 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: who did this. Their non biased, their NDC and as 496 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: you pointed out, some of the top so I think 497 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: it's as a personal story. It's interesting to me that 498 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: their involvement became because of Lorie. And then I have 499 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: to give some validity to their results of their findings, 500 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: and what were their results sharing Their result was that 501 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: gene Lee roy Hart was the most likely suspect in 502 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: this case. To James Powell, how much to the struggle 503 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:05,480 Speaker 1: between the Cherokee Nation jurisdiction versus the US or Oklahoma 504 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: jurisdiction way into this well after mcgurt it tends to 505 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,879 Speaker 1: give most of the jurisdiction to the tribe depending on 506 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,479 Speaker 1: the victims, whether they were native or the suspects, whether 507 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,439 Speaker 1: they were Native or both, or one or the other. 508 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: That decision has changed recently, and perhaps faith might know 509 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: that more than that's changed tiny But back in the 510 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: seventy seven it was concurrent jurisdiction. Most of the counties 511 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,359 Speaker 1: had agreements with the tribe that they would share the jurisdiction, 512 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: but generally speaking in the seventy seven up until very recently, 513 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: the county took precedence over almost all of those crimes. 514 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:46,560 Speaker 1: This case reignited by a teacher who feels confident that 515 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: other people were involved. Years of research and leg work 516 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: have gone into Phillip's belief. Cherokee screenwriter, but see for 517 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: yourself The Girl Scout Murders exclusively on Fox Station. We 518 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:10,520 Speaker 1: Wait as Justice unfalse Nancy Grace Crim's story signing off 519 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: good Bye Friend,