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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to our second Cautionary Questions episode. I'm

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Speaker 2: Tim Harford. You are our loyal listeners. You have sent

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Speaker 2: in your questions and we are going to try to

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Speaker 2: provide some answers this episode. I am delighted to be

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Speaker 2: joined by composer, sound designer representative of you are listeners,

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Speaker 2: representative of the people, Pascal Wise.

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Speaker 1: Pascal.

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Speaker 3: Hello, Tim. This is very exciting, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's it's so exciting because you were with Cautionary Tales

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Speaker 2: from the beginning.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when we we we sat down in.

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Speaker 2: My producer Ryan's apartment. Yea, and we just we talked

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Speaker 2: about airships and what what what are airship's going.

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Speaker 1: To sound like? What's what's the music going to sound like? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: And then I went off to record a hair dryer

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Speaker 4: or something whatever it was required. It's I feel like

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Speaker 4: I've been I'm like a kid who's been allowed onto

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Speaker 4: the into the cockpit for this episode. Although having said that,

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Speaker 4: that's a really bad sort of analogy.

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Speaker 3: Because we did an episode.

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Speaker 2: Yeah no, I didn't, and it didn't go well at all.

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Speaker 2: So let's hope we you've set the bar low there.

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Speaker 1: That's good.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, hopefully we're not going to crash in this one.

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Speaker 2: On our last Q and A episode with Jacob Goldstein,

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Speaker 2: we invited people to tell us what they thought of

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Speaker 2: cautionary conversation. So what what about the episodes where we're

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Speaker 2: not doing a fully mixed, composed, narrated story, but we're

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Speaker 2: doing something else, like having this kind of conversation or

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Speaker 2: talking to an author. And we got a lot of opinions,

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Speaker 2: a lot of feedback. So Pascal, you've got some of

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Speaker 2: them in front of you.

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Speaker 4: Yes, Now, Tim, for this, I would like you there's

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Speaker 4: a bit of an exercise view. I want you to

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Speaker 4: imagine that there's a bowl of chocolates in front of us.

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Speaker 3: Okay, okay, you got that in mind.

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Speaker 1: I'm liking that already.

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Speaker 4: I don't want to stress your imaginative skills because Ruth Ware, Alice,

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Speaker 4: our producer, is telling us it is the Ruthware, the novelist.

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Speaker 3: Okay, that had not hit my radar.

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Speaker 4: Well, she sent a great email in with a little

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Speaker 4: analogy for us. I do enjoy the cautionary interviews, some

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Speaker 4: more than others, depending on the person you're speaking to.

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Speaker 4: But I think perhaps the issue is they're quite a

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Speaker 4: different pleasure from the cautionary tales. I'm sure I'm not

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Speaker 4: the only podcast addict who gets a pleasurable little ping

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Speaker 4: of dopamine when I see there's a new episode of

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Speaker 4: my favorite podcast.

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Speaker 3: But that turn.

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Speaker 4: Into slight disappointment when it's not what you were expecting.

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Speaker 4: I suppose it's a bit like picking your way through

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Speaker 4: a box of chocolates and going chocolate, chocolate, chocolate, olive.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I like olives, I like them a lot,

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Speaker 4: but if I've been promised a chocolate, I may not

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Speaker 4: be in the best frame of mind to enjoy the olive.

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Speaker 3: Could there you go? I could have offered you a

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Speaker 3: bottle of olives, but I went chocolate.

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Speaker 1: You can tell she's a novelist. Can't you? Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much? Ruth.

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Speaker 2: What I've been trying to do when a cautionary conversation

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Speaker 2: appears is I try to make it seem a little

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Speaker 2: bit like a cautionary tale. I try and write a

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Speaker 2: little bit of narrative up at the front to make

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Speaker 2: it seem as close as possible to the original.

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Speaker 3: It's a really good point, isn't it about expectation.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I really recognize that sort of dopamine hit, which,

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Speaker 4: of course all our technology.

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Speaker 3: At the moment seems to be entirely based on.

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Speaker 2: So maybe we should be teaching people to resist. You

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Speaker 2: should enjoy the olive, don't be controlled by the steady

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Speaker 2: flow of chocolate. We invited people to keep writing in

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Speaker 2: about this question of the cautionary conversations versus the full

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Speaker 2: fledged cautionary tales.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: We've had a really good response actually, and obviously that

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Speaker 4: one is pointing to the idea that we should sort

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Speaker 4: of flag this up again Dopamine management. Other people like

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Speaker 4: Nada and Sandra, they were very keen on the traditional

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Speaker 4: episodes with full sound design, you know, full stop. They

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Speaker 4: love those and didn't really want the conversation episodes fair enough.

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Speaker 4: And then you know, there are lots of listeners who

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Speaker 4: are just very happy with the current setup Kira sets.

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Speaker 4: All of your episodes are thoroughly enjoyable and incredibly enlightening.

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Speaker 4: Ed Midden from Arlington chimes with While I'm always interested

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Speaker 4: in a good story and a lesson, i also find

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Speaker 4: it very interesting to learn about the storyteller. Context matters,

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Speaker 4: and getting to know more about the world around you

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Speaker 4: helps me better understand cautionary tales.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it is it it is. It's like a

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Speaker 2: mixedbox chocolates any others.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Sammy, Maitlenan and I hope I'm pronouncing that somewhere

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Speaker 4: in the ballpark.

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Speaker 1: Make a linen.

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Speaker 3: Maybe make a linen.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we apologize to everyone whose name we're mangling. We

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Speaker 2: are sorry about Sammy went to the trouble of making

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Speaker 2: as a chart. You will loved him because you love

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Speaker 2: a chart.

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Speaker 1: An, I've seen the charts so well.

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Speaker 4: As far as I understand that, I think you will

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Speaker 4: probably have a deeper understanding than me. But it shows

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Speaker 4: how the conversational format has grown over the life of

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Speaker 4: the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I enjoyed Sammy's graft. Alice sent it on

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Speaker 2: to me.

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Speaker 1: What Sammy did was.

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Speaker 2: To show what proportion of the show is now cautionary

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Speaker 2: conversations rather than cautionary tales, which is fair enough. That's

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Speaker 2: that's a question to ask. But for me, I would

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Speaker 2: also have liked to have seen just the absolute number

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Speaker 2: of cautionary tales. But I think I have it. I

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Speaker 2: think I think I have it from memory. So in

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen we did eight. In twenty twenty, I think

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Speaker 2: we did six. In twenty twenty one, I think we

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Speaker 2: did sixteen, and in twenty twenty two, I think we

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Speaker 2: probably did eighteen. So we're trying to do twenty.

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Speaker 3: A year now of the fully fledged, of the.

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Speaker 2: Full fledged, fully mixed, and the aim is to get

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Speaker 2: something out every two weeks. So obviously twenty doesn't quite

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Speaker 2: cover it. So then you would need these conversations that

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Speaker 2: we're having now, you and either Q and A episodes,

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Speaker 2: some reruns, some cautionary conversations.

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Speaker 3: Otherwise I'm just going to fall over.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean yeah, because you got I mean

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Speaker 2: I can't write them. Andrew, of course Andrew write write

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Speaker 2: some of the episodes. There's a limit to how much

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Speaker 2: he can write. There's a limit to how much I

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Speaker 2: can write. There's a limit to how much you can

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Speaker 2: compose and mix. So really the choice is not could

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Speaker 2: we have some more cautionary tales instead of these cautionary conversations? Sorry,

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Speaker 2: we can't write any more cautionary tales? About twenty year

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Speaker 2: is about the limit. The question is would you like

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Speaker 2: some cautionary conversations on top of those or not? Thanks

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Speaker 2: everyone for writing in. I mean I acknowledge that everyone

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Speaker 2: who bothered to write in, they'll have their own view,

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Speaker 2: and they wrote in in response to a conversation episode

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Speaker 2: a Q and a episode, So people who despise such

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Speaker 2: episodes won't have even been around to respond. And then

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Speaker 2: you know, and there's more jazz in it for you,

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Speaker 2: isn't there? In terms of when you get someone else

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Speaker 2: in the studio, there's more of an improvisation. You're being

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Speaker 2: pulled in different ways.

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Speaker 4: The others are written and set and you know, we

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Speaker 4: know what's coming, Whereas it's really interesting to hear different

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Speaker 4: brains and different brains interacting with you and encouraging the conversation.

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Speaker 3: In different directions.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a different thing.

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Speaker 3: Now let's move on to D and D.

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Speaker 1: Of course, Dungeon Dragons.

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Speaker 4: Why not the look of excitement and relief on your face.

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Speaker 4: I used to play D and D and I can't

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Speaker 4: remember too much about it other than it did have

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Speaker 4: an eighteenth level Monk. Does that mean anything to you?

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Speaker 2: It doesn't mean something to me, But I mean you

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Speaker 2: say you used to play D and D. I've played

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Speaker 2: D and D twice in June, and we're recording this

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Speaker 2: conversation in July, so I'm a current player.

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Speaker 3: You're a dungeon master.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I'm a dungeon master. So the dungeon master, for

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Speaker 2: people who don't know, is the kind of referee, stroke, storyteller,

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Speaker 2: stroke arbiter, the director of the drama, if you like,

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Speaker 2: while the others are the actors in the drama.

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Speaker 1: There's no I mean, there's no precise analogy.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, D and D has got some of our

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Speaker 4: listeners very interested to hear more.

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Speaker 3: Norwin, that's a.

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Speaker 4: I can't believe you would think of yourself as lawful neutral.

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Speaker 3: You might need to unpack that one.

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Speaker 4: I've listened to a lot of your stuff on the

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Speaker 4: radio and your podcasts, and even read a book, and

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Speaker 4: you're clearly good. I also suspect the UK government would

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Speaker 4: consider you chaotic rather than lawful.

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Speaker 2: I'm not even sure we should unpack this. I think

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Speaker 2: people who know what Norwin is talking about, and if

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Speaker 2: you don't know, you don't know. All I'd say is yes,

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Speaker 2: as I mentioned, I'm not really a D and D player.

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Speaker 2: I play other games, and other games do not hitching

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Speaker 2: nowing I'm completely consistent.

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Speaker 3: With what I told you forty five seconds ago. Oh

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Speaker 3: I can't remember that far fair.

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Speaker 2: Enough so but yes, I'm very flat at that Norway

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Speaker 2: regards me as chaotic good, because chaotic good is you're

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Speaker 2: the rule breaking good guy. This is definitely the coolest

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Speaker 2: of all the alignments.

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Speaker 4: I'm not going to let you out of the dungeon

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Speaker 4: quite yet, I'm afraid because the D and D thing

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Speaker 4: did spark quite a few questions from the listeners. Ryan

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Speaker 4: Kennedy and his son Ian were in touch. Hello and

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Speaker 4: mister Harford. My youngest son and I are huge fans

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Speaker 4: of Cautionary Tales. Ian is eight and really looks forward

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Speaker 4: to each new episode coming out. We listen to your

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Speaker 4: show every time we are driving somewhere to go camping

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Speaker 4: or hiking together, and we each have a question for you.

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Speaker 4: From me, how have you ever thought about doing a

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Speaker 4: Cautionary Tales podcast episode specifically for kids who like to

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Speaker 4: listen to your show? And from Ian. Ian loves D

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Speaker 4: and D and after listening to your first question episode,

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Speaker 4: would like to know what is your favorite D and

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Speaker 4: D character class and why? So thank you for your time,

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Speaker 4: for such a great podcast, and for your fantastic books.

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Speaker 4: Ryan and Ian Kennedy now your best friends.

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Speaker 2: I would imagine oh yeah. As a lovely email thank you.

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Speaker 2: So I haven't considered doing a Cautionary Tales podcast specifically

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Speaker 2: for children. I know there are quite a lot of

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Speaker 2: quite young people who listen, which always makes me worry

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Speaker 2: a little bit because I mean, these really are stories

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Speaker 2: for grown up. Some of them are horrible, some of

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Speaker 2: them aren't. But my son, who is eleven, he was

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Speaker 2: photographed glued to the Cautionary Tales table read. The table

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Speaker 2: readers when we it's basically like a rehearsal where we

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Speaker 2: kind of explore things. I was doing a table read

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Speaker 2: at home and he was lying on the floor outside

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Speaker 2: my study with his ear the bottom of the door,

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Speaker 2: listening to me read this story. And the story in

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Speaker 2: particular is about this guy who murders his own son.

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Speaker 2: It's the most tim on the most horrific episode. But

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Speaker 2: he was completely hooked. So yeah, yes, I think about that.

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Speaker 2: I have written a book for children which is not

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Speaker 2: yet available in the US and Canada, but is available

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Speaker 2: in most other places, called The Truth Detective. So if

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Speaker 2: there are any eight to thirteen year olds listening and

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Speaker 2: they want a bit more of me, they can get

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Speaker 2: a copy of the Truth Detective and have fun with that.

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Speaker 2: And Ian's question was was my favorite character class in

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Speaker 2: D and D. I'm going to say a fighter. The

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Speaker 2: reason I say that is because I actually find Dungeons

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Speaker 2: and Dragons to be quite complicated. I prefer simpler games

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Speaker 2: that are more about the narrative of the storytelling, the description,

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Speaker 2: all of that, and less about all the complex rules.

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Speaker 2: And fighters have the simplest rules. So I tend to

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Speaker 2: stick with a fighter when I can.

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Speaker 4: First person shoot them up exactly. So here's another question

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Speaker 4: from Mary, who's living in France and who sends some

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Speaker 4: kind words get ready to him.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I like kind words.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: Hello.

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Speaker 4: I'd just like to start by saying thank you for

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Speaker 4: Cautionary Tales. I've recommended it to a lot of people,

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Speaker 4: and I look forward to the new episodes when they

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Speaker 4: come out.

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Speaker 1: Oh my pleasure. Thank you.

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Speaker 4: Right, come on, a question, here we go. A question

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Speaker 4: I ponder is why do board games, and especially role

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Speaker 4: playing games have such a geeky and often negative reputation.

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Speaker 4: I think it's much more socially acceptable in France to

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Speaker 4: be a role player gamer, and indeed any kind of gamer.

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Speaker 4: I know lots more people who talk openly about them

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Speaker 4: in different kinds of social circles. Can't quite get my

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Speaker 4: head around why in the UK regularly playing board games

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Speaker 4: with a bit of strategy or role play games seems

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Speaker 4: to somehow marginalize you. After all, they're all social activities

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Speaker 4: that you do with your friends. Anyway, makes me ponder.

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Speaker 4: Thanks again for the podcast, Mary, Wow, great question.

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Speaker 2: It is it is. I did do some thinking about this.

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Speaker 2: About fifteen years ago. I wrote a magazine cover story

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Speaker 2: for The Financial Times that partly involved me going to

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Speaker 2: Germany to the biggest board game conference in the world

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Speaker 2: at Essen, where there's just these huge, huge conference centers

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Speaker 2: full of board game geeks and interviewing the board game

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Speaker 2: geeks about the board games. And one of the questions

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Speaker 2: was how come board games are so big in Germany

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Speaker 2: and so relatively small in the UK and the US.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, I think the best answer I've got

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Speaker 2: it's a historical accident. And these things feed upon themselves.

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Speaker 2: So if you have a board game culture, then the

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Speaker 2: newspapers are kind of interested in board games, and so

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Speaker 2: a new board game comes out, people actually review it,

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Speaker 2: so it gets reviewed in the newspapers. It's a good

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Speaker 2: board game. That means that there's more mileage and making

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Speaker 2: a good board game, so the board games get better,

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Speaker 2: or board games that win a prize in Germany are guaranteed.

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Speaker 2: It's like winning the book a prize in the UK,

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Speaker 2: You're instantly guaranteed to sell half a million copies because

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Speaker 2: you won the game of the year. And so there's

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Speaker 2: this virtual circle. And then just in terms of people's

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Speaker 2: people's own social activity, is it acceptable after you've had

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Speaker 2: people over for dinner to crack open a board game.

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Speaker 2: I think back in the day it would have been

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Speaker 2: quite common for a certain kind of English person to

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Speaker 2: suggest a game of bridge. But I think it's less

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Speaker 2: weird now. I've got lots of friends who are happy

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Speaker 2: to try a board game.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I.

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Speaker 2: Don't think I have a better answer than that, which

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Speaker 2: is that these success breed success in this sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if things like Stranger Things, you know, the

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Speaker 4: television series which features a bunch of kids quite obsessed

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Speaker 4: with D and D. I mean, I wonder if that,

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Speaker 4: you know, sparked any interest. And I certainly know quite

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Speaker 4: a few kids around the ten to fourteen age group,

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Speaker 4: sons and daughters of friends of mine, who are really

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Speaker 4: into it. And I'm always quite surprised because I feel

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Speaker 4: like they've picked up something from my childhood and I think, wow,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 2: YouTube as well, so there are live play channels for

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Speaker 2: D and D and reviews of games on YouTube all

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Speaker 2: of that. So yeah, the hobby is bigger than it's

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Speaker 2: ever been.

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Speaker 4: The next question Tim comes from Peter who's in Calgary,

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Speaker 4: and he asks Tim, what do you feel is the

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Speaker 4: most pressing problem we need to solve as humans and

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Speaker 4: how substantial is any progress we've made.

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Speaker 2: I guess the interesting thing about this is that if

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Speaker 2: we have made a lot of progress in solving it,

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Speaker 2: it no longer becomes a pressing problem.

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Speaker 3: So the foot comes off the gas a bit.

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Speaker 2: So I did discuss this in my book The Data

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Speaker 2: Detective Stroke, How to Make the World Add Up. If

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Speaker 2: you go back one hundred years, I think the most

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Speaker 2: obvious problem that the human race faced was infant mortality,

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Speaker 2: which is a polite way of saying babies and young

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Speaker 2: kids dying. And it was an incredibly common occurrence. So

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Speaker 2: if you imagine a class full of thirty kids who

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Speaker 2: are going to show up to kindergarten at the age

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Speaker 2: of four, and that these thirty children have just been born,

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Speaker 2: perhaps a quarter of them, perhaps eight will never make

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Speaker 2: it to kindergarten because the mortality rate is so high,

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Speaker 2: so many children would have died immediately after childbirth, in

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Speaker 2: childbirth or from these diseases. That would have been the

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Speaker 2: situation in the early nineteenth century, and then this country

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Speaker 2: or globally that is the global average, but it would

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Speaker 2: have been true most places. But now the global average,

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Speaker 2: I think it's less than one would die under the

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Speaker 2: age of five out of thirty and that is globally,

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Speaker 2: that is including the very poorest, most imprived countries in

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Speaker 2: the world. So I would say, if that's the most

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Speaker 2: pressing problem that the human race faced, that problem has

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Speaker 2: not been solved, but we've made the most incredible progress.

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Speaker 2: But then you just turn it around and say, well,

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Speaker 2: maybe that's no longer the most pressing problem. Maybe the

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Speaker 2: most pressing problem is fascism, or maybe the most pressing

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Speaker 2: problem is climate change or the risk of nuclear war.

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Speaker 2: Who knows, but that's the one that springs to my mind,

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Speaker 2: and it's not as pressing as it used to be, thankfully.

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Speaker 2: The writer Oliver Berkerman argues that instead of making to

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Speaker 2: do lists, we should make done lists. At the end

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Speaker 2: of every day, you should make a list of all

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Speaker 2: the things you've done. It's just much more uplifting. And

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Speaker 2: so maybe the infant mortality it is on the done

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Speaker 2: list rather than the to do list. But we shouldn't

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Speaker 2: forget that we have made that progress.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Oliver is an intriguing writer, and I've got a

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Speaker 4: question relating to him later.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well we will come to that after the break,

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Speaker 2: but not immediately, because the first thing we are going

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Speaker 2: to do after the break is Pascal. I am going

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Speaker 2: to start asking you some questions because I am very

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Speaker 2: curious about where all the magic comes from.

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Speaker 3: Q sound effect off screen.

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Speaker 1: Stick with us. We'll be back in a moment. We're back.

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Speaker 2: It's me Tim Harford, host of Cautionary Tales, and if

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Speaker 2: I am, if I'm the heart of Cautionary Tales, perhaps

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Speaker 2: i am Pascal Wise is the soul of Cautionary Tales.

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Speaker 2: Pascal is our composer. He does the sound design for

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Speaker 2: all the episodes he's been with Cautioning Tales. Right from

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Speaker 2: the start, before even a word of any of these

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Speaker 2: episodes had been written, Pascal and I and the producer

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Speaker 2: Ryan were talking about, you know what does an Airship,

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Speaker 2: Hangar full of Rats sound like anyway? And so Pascal,

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Speaker 2: you are such an important part of the way cautionary

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Speaker 2: tales sounds and what people love about the show.

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Speaker 1: How do you do it? How does it happen? Just

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Speaker 1: talk me through the process.

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Speaker 4: I mean often actually in the cut and thrust of

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Speaker 4: our production schedule, oftentimes I've not really had much of

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Speaker 4: a chance to look through the script before I get,

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Speaker 4: as I say, you naked, it's you in the studio

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Speaker 4: reading the whole show, and I just get that as

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Speaker 4: what we the audio, Yeah, just the audio of you

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Speaker 4: having read out the entire episode. What we'd call a stem,

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Speaker 4: I suppose in audio terms. And it's interesting, having done

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Speaker 4: so many episodes, a lot of things happen very instinctively

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Speaker 4: now for me, but they deserve I suppose a little

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Speaker 4: bit of unpacking because what I do with that, And

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Speaker 4: often I'm doing this away from the script, I just

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Speaker 4: play it and I drop little markers in on my

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Speaker 4: computer which is playing the audio, so I have a

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Speaker 4: timeline with you speaking, and I just start to drop

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Speaker 4: in thoughts about what I'd like to hear at any

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Speaker 4: given moment, you know, and those markers as I would

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Speaker 4: call them will kind of come into two categories. Some

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Speaker 4: will be music and some will be sound effects or

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Speaker 4: sound design. And one of the great things about podcasts

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Speaker 4: is that, you know, you look at the sort of

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Speaker 4: size of this operation. There quite a small team, and

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Speaker 4: I'm handling effectively everything that happens in sound after you.

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Speaker 4: So I can play around with the relationship between those

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Speaker 4: two things, but fundamentally, the first thing I've got to

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Speaker 4: do is think, well, what do we want to hear here?

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Speaker 4: Do we want to hear anything or is this something

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Speaker 4: the listener will happily imagine? And of course, you know,

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Speaker 4: when you're doing music and sound design for something which

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Speaker 4: is audio only, there's very rarely a moment that you

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Speaker 4: kind of have the stage to yourself. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: suppose the theme tune is the only spot where there's

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Speaker 4: a little moment where the one is just listening to music.

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Speaker 2: Which I sorry to interrupt with that. I mean, the

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Speaker 2: theme tune is is magical. And I vividly remember I

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Speaker 2: was on holiday with some family and so I'm on

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Speaker 2: some Italian hillside with a glass of wine. I was

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Speaker 2: sent the draft of the theme chain. Yeah, and I said,

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Speaker 2: you know this podcast thing that you know, I'm maybe

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Speaker 2: doing I've just been sent to music. Let's all have

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Speaker 2: a listen, and just clicking the button on my phone

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Speaker 2: and all of us gathering around the phone and just

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Speaker 2: hearing through the tinny speakers these the cautioning tale theme,

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Speaker 2: and it was magic. Everyone's like, wow, that sounds really good.

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Speaker 2: I don't have the vocabulary to explain why it sounds

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Speaker 2: really good, but trust me, it sounds really good.

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Speaker 3: Well, thank you.

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Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, sometimes you sometimes you get it lucky

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Speaker 4: and your first idea kind of fits. I mean, I

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Speaker 4: think the theme had to indicate a certain sense of

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Speaker 4: kind of jeopardy or drama without being overtly kind of grim.

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Speaker 4: Because of course, there are so many different kinds of tales,

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Speaker 4: so it has to be kind of quite multi purpose.

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Speaker 4: I think somewhere in the back of my minds would

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Speaker 4: be the music to Tales of the Unexpected, you know,

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Speaker 4: the rolled arm stories.

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Speaker 1: There's a sort of vintage about it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's kind of Victoriana kind of wind up music

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Speaker 4: box element to it. There's a moment where it gets

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Speaker 4: a little bit widescreen and goes almost sort.

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Speaker 3: Of bond like.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, there are other things that you do

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Speaker 2: an episode that you've mixed. And this is an epic

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Speaker 2: three parter about the creation of the V two rocket,

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Speaker 2: and I don't want us to talk too much about it,

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Speaker 2: but there's a scene where there's a high pressure meeting

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Speaker 2: with Heinrich Himmler, who is arguably the most evil man

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Speaker 2: of the twentieth century. And there's a lot of competition

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Speaker 2: for that, and you just made it sound so frightening

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Speaker 2: in ways that I cannot put my finger on. Just

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Speaker 2: the echo, the sound design. We had wonderful acts as

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Speaker 2: reading these lines. The rhymes were a matter of historical record.

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Speaker 2: There's just something chilling about the effects the mixing. Himmler's

439
00:22:40,210 --> 00:22:45,090
Speaker 2: command center had the nickname the Black Lair. At first

440
00:22:45,210 --> 00:22:48,930
Speaker 2: a few concrete bunkers hidden from air assault by the

441
00:22:48,930 --> 00:22:54,010
Speaker 2: Polish forests, it had grown low. Wooden buildings were scattered

442
00:22:54,010 --> 00:22:58,090
Speaker 2: through the trees, heavily camouflaged. There was even a command

443
00:22:58,210 --> 00:23:02,530
Speaker 2: train parked up on a ramp. SS guards were everywhere.

444
00:23:03,130 --> 00:23:05,570
Speaker 2: It was the kind of place people were summoned to,

445
00:23:06,490 --> 00:23:10,770
Speaker 2: never to return. Even the self assured Von Brown was

446
00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:14,730
Speaker 2: unnerved by the prospect of meeting the most sinister man

447
00:23:15,170 --> 00:23:20,170
Speaker 2: in the third Reich Himmler received Von Brown behind a

448
00:23:20,290 --> 00:23:21,610
Speaker 2: simple wooden table.

449
00:23:22,650 --> 00:23:25,050
Speaker 5: I must confess that I felt a bit jittery when

450
00:23:25,050 --> 00:23:27,730
Speaker 5: I was shown into his office. But he greeted me

451
00:23:27,770 --> 00:23:31,210
Speaker 5: politely and conveyed rather the impression of a country grammar

452
00:23:31,250 --> 00:23:34,050
Speaker 5: school teacher than that horrible man who was said to

453
00:23:34,130 --> 00:23:35,690
Speaker 5: weighe knee deep in blood.

454
00:23:36,770 --> 00:23:39,370
Speaker 6: I trust you realize that your V two rocket has

455
00:23:39,410 --> 00:23:42,130
Speaker 6: ceased to be an engineer's toy, and that the German

456
00:23:42,170 --> 00:23:45,130
Speaker 6: people are eagerly waiting for it. Why don't you come

457
00:23:45,170 --> 00:23:48,250
Speaker 6: to us. You know that the fust door is open

458
00:23:48,330 --> 00:23:50,890
Speaker 6: to me at any time, don't you. I shall be

459
00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:53,530
Speaker 6: in a much better position to help you lick the

460
00:23:53,530 --> 00:23:57,930
Speaker 6: remaining difficulties than that clumsy army machine Heinra.

461
00:23:58,050 --> 00:24:02,250
Speaker 2: Himmler was making his play. The SS was launching a

462
00:24:02,370 --> 00:24:07,610
Speaker 2: hostile takeover of Painamunda and the entire rocket program. Vron

463
00:24:07,690 --> 00:24:08,970
Speaker 2: Brown pushed back.

464
00:24:10,850 --> 00:24:11,850
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's funny, isn't it.

465
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:15,730
Speaker 4: There are sometimes when pressure you know what, a necessity

466
00:24:15,730 --> 00:24:18,530
Speaker 4: being the mother of invention, But when pressure of time

467
00:24:18,730 --> 00:24:21,770
Speaker 4: to do things sometimes leads you to a quick solution

468
00:24:21,890 --> 00:24:26,170
Speaker 4: which is actually really effective. Because when the one of

469
00:24:26,210 --> 00:24:28,930
Speaker 4: the world's most evil men gets ushered onto the script.

470
00:24:29,250 --> 00:24:32,730
Speaker 4: It's very tempting to you know, reach for the Wagnerian

471
00:24:32,850 --> 00:24:35,130
Speaker 4: orchestra or whatever, which's.

472
00:24:34,890 --> 00:24:35,690
Speaker 1: Just what he would want.

473
00:24:35,810 --> 00:24:39,010
Speaker 4: Yeah, exelling I'm not playing that game and get sort

474
00:24:39,050 --> 00:24:43,330
Speaker 4: of twelve French horns up and running. But in this case,

475
00:24:43,530 --> 00:24:47,850
Speaker 4: it came down to just a very uneasy, very low

476
00:24:48,010 --> 00:24:52,570
Speaker 4: humming background sound. There's something just rumbling down in there

477
00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:54,010
Speaker 4: to unsettle the listener.

478
00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:56,970
Speaker 2: It worked for me, And I'm curious. Is there an

479
00:24:56,970 --> 00:25:01,570
Speaker 2: episode that sticks in your mind as being either particularly

480
00:25:01,570 --> 00:25:04,410
Speaker 2: satisfying to work on or particularly difficult one that you

481
00:25:04,450 --> 00:25:06,010
Speaker 2: got through and just thought, what on earth am I

482
00:25:06,050 --> 00:25:06,770
Speaker 2: going to do with this?

483
00:25:06,770 --> 00:25:07,650
Speaker 1: This is very hard?

484
00:25:08,090 --> 00:25:12,250
Speaker 4: Well, that's a very good question because there's a real

485
00:25:12,410 --> 00:25:17,530
Speaker 4: pain and pleasure principle at play with Cautionary Tales in

486
00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:21,370
Speaker 4: that every time we move on to a next episode,

487
00:25:21,530 --> 00:25:24,890
Speaker 4: we reset the clock. You know, literally one week I'll

488
00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:27,050
Speaker 4: be doing the Charge of the Librigade, and the next

489
00:25:27,050 --> 00:25:31,130
Speaker 4: week I'll be doing Clive Sinclair. Now that's incredibly refreshing

490
00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:34,130
Speaker 4: and fun because you know, literally I can kind of

491
00:25:34,530 --> 00:25:38,730
Speaker 4: just chuck everything off the desk and start again. But

492
00:25:38,770 --> 00:25:40,610
Speaker 4: it's it's I suppose it's in a sense labor and

493
00:25:40,690 --> 00:25:42,450
Speaker 4: sensive in the way that you know, when you're working

494
00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:45,210
Speaker 4: on a long form in any given story, what tends

495
00:25:45,210 --> 00:25:47,290
Speaker 4: to happen is you build up a library of things

496
00:25:47,370 --> 00:25:51,210
Speaker 4: that are repeatable and usable. And there is an element

497
00:25:51,250 --> 00:25:53,290
Speaker 4: of that in caution Retails, actually, because we do often

498
00:25:53,330 --> 00:25:55,370
Speaker 4: return to subjects, you know, like quite.

499
00:25:55,210 --> 00:25:57,490
Speaker 3: Often we end up on an aeroplane in Cautionary Tails.

500
00:25:58,210 --> 00:26:00,690
Speaker 4: But to go back to your actual question, I often

501
00:26:00,770 --> 00:26:04,010
Speaker 4: do open up an episode and you'll say something casual, like,

502
00:26:04,090 --> 00:26:08,650
Speaker 4: you know, seven thousand horses are being flown across space,

503
00:26:09,490 --> 00:26:11,970
Speaker 4: you know, and it's like, oh God, I got to

504
00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:14,090
Speaker 4: Oh really, I got to do that now, and I

505
00:26:14,210 --> 00:26:18,250
Speaker 4: sort of start reaching for stuff to put in. Sometimes

506
00:26:18,250 --> 00:26:20,050
Speaker 4: I kind of, you know, I dread that moment to think,

507
00:26:20,050 --> 00:26:22,290
Speaker 4: oh God, I'm gonna have to build a massive world here.

508
00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:26,050
Speaker 4: But more often than not, it's exciting. I mean, there

509
00:26:26,050 --> 00:26:28,410
Speaker 4: are so many different episodes that had different, really nice

510
00:26:28,490 --> 00:26:32,410
Speaker 4: challenges for me. The Clive Sinclair episode I really liked

511
00:26:32,650 --> 00:26:36,090
Speaker 4: kind of trying to dig into the synthesizer world of

512
00:26:36,250 --> 00:26:38,690
Speaker 4: that era, and not at least because I was a

513
00:26:38,770 --> 00:26:42,930
Speaker 4: Zex eighty one owner that was Clive Sinclair's second computer.

514
00:26:43,370 --> 00:26:45,650
Speaker 2: The Clive Sinclair episode being the False Dawn of the

515
00:26:45,690 --> 00:26:47,290
Speaker 2: Electric Car, which I think is still one of our

516
00:26:47,370 --> 00:26:48,970
Speaker 2: most popular ever episodes.

517
00:26:49,050 --> 00:26:50,490
Speaker 1: So you did your job on that? Was it?

518
00:26:50,530 --> 00:26:50,690
Speaker 4: Oh?

519
00:26:50,730 --> 00:26:51,730
Speaker 3: Great? Yeah?

520
00:26:51,850 --> 00:26:54,490
Speaker 4: So I found it very redolent, and I really enjoyed

521
00:26:54,530 --> 00:26:57,610
Speaker 4: trying to get us into that time and that that's

522
00:26:57,610 --> 00:27:01,530
Speaker 4: a really key thing in cause retales because it moves

523
00:27:01,530 --> 00:27:04,650
Speaker 4: through time. It's really there's a really interesting question of

524
00:27:05,010 --> 00:27:07,890
Speaker 4: every episode. It's like, what are the kind of signature

525
00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:10,490
Speaker 4: sounds of that period? What would things have sounded like?

526
00:27:10,890 --> 00:27:13,570
Speaker 4: In what way would they be different? What will listeners

527
00:27:13,610 --> 00:27:16,650
Speaker 4: be expecting if we're in, you know, nineteen twenties New York,

528
00:27:17,090 --> 00:27:20,370
Speaker 4: how is that different from nineteen eighties London, you know,

529
00:27:20,370 --> 00:27:21,570
Speaker 4: over in a restaurant or something.

530
00:27:21,730 --> 00:27:21,890
Speaker 1: Yeah.

531
00:27:57,490 --> 00:28:01,130
Speaker 2: Actually, my favorite episode in terms of the sound design

532
00:28:01,970 --> 00:28:05,050
Speaker 2: was the one about claud Shannon and Ed Thorpe's going

533
00:28:05,090 --> 00:28:07,450
Speaker 2: to Las Vegas. And I think it's partly because it

534
00:28:07,770 --> 00:28:09,050
Speaker 2: seemed to be very unpromising.

535
00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:10,130
Speaker 1: It wasn't.

536
00:28:10,410 --> 00:28:11,970
Speaker 2: I don't think it was my best work in terms

537
00:28:12,010 --> 00:28:15,130
Speaker 2: of setting scenes or telling a story. It was a

538
00:28:15,210 --> 00:28:16,970
Speaker 2: little bit more of an essay than a story in

539
00:28:17,010 --> 00:28:19,770
Speaker 2: some ways, and you just you did wonderful work on that.

540
00:28:19,850 --> 00:28:21,850
Speaker 4: Very briefly, there was a gift in that episode there,

541
00:28:21,890 --> 00:28:25,890
Speaker 4: which was that part of the clever machinery that Shannon

542
00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:30,050
Speaker 4: developed for predicting the outcome of a roulette whel involved

543
00:28:30,050 --> 00:28:32,770
Speaker 4: a guy having a little ear piece in that played

544
00:28:32,810 --> 00:28:34,810
Speaker 4: a little scale. Yeah, and of course you know that

545
00:28:34,930 --> 00:28:37,930
Speaker 4: was You long for moments like that because it's you know,

546
00:28:38,010 --> 00:28:40,810
Speaker 4: when you open an episode up, you've got infinite possibility,

547
00:28:41,010 --> 00:28:44,570
Speaker 4: and then if something in the story tells you something musical,

548
00:28:44,610 --> 00:28:47,770
Speaker 4: it's like brilliant. It's like that's the way I've got

549
00:28:47,770 --> 00:28:50,890
Speaker 4: to go, and suddenly you know your ideas flow from that.

550
00:28:51,010 --> 00:28:52,970
Speaker 3: It's great to have a little peg like that.

551
00:28:58,090 --> 00:29:00,850
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Askal, Thank you for answering my questions.

552
00:29:00,850 --> 00:29:04,170
Speaker 2: Thank you for putting the listeners questions to me. Do

553
00:29:04,210 --> 00:29:05,810
Speaker 2: you have a question for me anything he wants to

554
00:29:05,850 --> 00:29:06,770
Speaker 2: ask me while you're here?

555
00:29:07,050 --> 00:29:08,690
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've got a meta question for.

556
00:29:08,610 --> 00:29:10,490
Speaker 1: You, best kind of question maybe.

557
00:29:10,610 --> 00:29:11,410
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is.

558
00:29:11,370 --> 00:29:13,330
Speaker 4: Going to have you kind of walking up and down

559
00:29:13,330 --> 00:29:16,530
Speaker 4: an esher staircase for the next three days. So you've

560
00:29:16,570 --> 00:29:20,090
Speaker 4: now done a podcast called Cautionary Tales for what nearly

561
00:29:20,130 --> 00:29:20,930
Speaker 4: three years now?

562
00:29:21,170 --> 00:29:23,010
Speaker 2: Is it three it's more than three. It's about fifty

563
00:29:23,090 --> 00:29:25,170
Speaker 2: fifty episodes, maybe sixty episodes.

564
00:29:24,810 --> 00:29:26,610
Speaker 3: Now so since the Victorian era.

565
00:29:28,250 --> 00:29:32,290
Speaker 4: So what cautionary tale would you tell about making a

566
00:29:32,330 --> 00:29:34,530
Speaker 4: podcast called cautionary Tales.

567
00:29:36,330 --> 00:29:38,810
Speaker 2: Yes, that's very meta. Well, and the obvious thing to

568
00:29:38,810 --> 00:29:41,650
Speaker 2: talk about is the mistakes that I've made over the

569
00:29:41,690 --> 00:29:46,570
Speaker 2: time I've been writing. But rather than pick out specific mistakes,

570
00:29:46,570 --> 00:29:49,530
Speaker 2: because we do make mistakes, you know, we get things wrong, accidentally,

571
00:29:49,810 --> 00:29:53,410
Speaker 2: get a fact, get a fact wrong, I guess what's

572
00:29:53,450 --> 00:29:55,730
Speaker 2: on my mind at the moment. Just to get very

573
00:29:55,730 --> 00:30:01,770
Speaker 2: personal is I absolutely love writing cautionary Tales, but it

574
00:30:01,850 --> 00:30:04,850
Speaker 2: just takes how much time? And so it's a question

575
00:30:04,970 --> 00:30:08,050
Speaker 2: of how do I divide my time between writings like

576
00:30:08,090 --> 00:30:09,730
Speaker 2: Cautionary Tales and doing someth thing else I might want

577
00:30:09,770 --> 00:30:13,010
Speaker 2: to do, like writing a book. And I guess the

578
00:30:13,010 --> 00:30:15,250
Speaker 2: caution Tales is a man who loved his podcast so

579
00:30:15,370 --> 00:30:17,930
Speaker 2: much that he Yeah, you couldn't let go of it.

580
00:30:18,210 --> 00:30:20,010
Speaker 4: Well, actually, you know, quite a few listeners are really

581
00:30:20,010 --> 00:30:22,490
Speaker 4: interested in this, and that it does. Again, I mentioned

582
00:30:22,530 --> 00:30:23,650
Speaker 4: Oliver Berk went earlier on.

583
00:30:24,010 --> 00:30:26,090
Speaker 2: He wrote this wonderful book called four Thousand Weeks, which

584
00:30:26,130 --> 00:30:29,530
Speaker 2: is about how to live your life wisely, I suppose, yeah.

585
00:30:29,330 --> 00:30:31,210
Speaker 3: In the very limited time that we have.

586
00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:34,570
Speaker 4: And he's you know, a lot of the questioners are

587
00:30:34,570 --> 00:30:36,570
Speaker 4: fascinated by you know, I think they think they must

588
00:30:36,610 --> 00:30:39,530
Speaker 4: be like for Tim Harford's because they don't quite understand

589
00:30:39,570 --> 00:30:41,210
Speaker 4: how you do all that you do.

590
00:30:41,490 --> 00:30:43,530
Speaker 2: I mean, there are kind of to Tim Harford's because

591
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:47,410
Speaker 2: Andrew Wright writes half the Spritsah, so he does. Yeah,

592
00:30:47,450 --> 00:30:48,650
Speaker 2: he does all the good ones.

593
00:30:48,810 --> 00:30:51,610
Speaker 4: Obviously in your writings and in caution retales and elsewhere

594
00:30:51,690 --> 00:30:54,930
Speaker 4: you have come across, consumed and investigated. It's you know,

595
00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:57,810
Speaker 4: so many different kinds of life hacks and self help

596
00:30:57,890 --> 00:31:01,490
Speaker 4: things and ways of operating and dealing with the myriad

597
00:31:01,490 --> 00:31:06,210
Speaker 4: problems with faith. And I wondered, you know what has stuck?

598
00:31:06,210 --> 00:31:08,130
Speaker 3: Because I asked Oliver berk Whan the same thing. You know,

599
00:31:08,170 --> 00:31:09,370
Speaker 3: having tried so.

600
00:31:09,130 --> 00:31:14,770
Speaker 4: So many ways of organizing your life and experimented with them,

601
00:31:15,450 --> 00:31:18,690
Speaker 4: what really remained to something that you now routinely do?

602
00:31:19,490 --> 00:31:21,570
Speaker 2: And there's so many different things. There's no one hack,

603
00:31:21,650 --> 00:31:24,970
Speaker 2: is there? Because life is complicated. I mean that one

604
00:31:25,090 --> 00:31:28,850
Speaker 2: piece of advice that I think people underrate is looking

605
00:31:28,850 --> 00:31:35,290
Speaker 2: ahead more often and more thoughtfully than seems sane, like

606
00:31:35,370 --> 00:31:37,130
Speaker 2: what have I got to do tomorrow? What have I

607
00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:38,810
Speaker 2: got to do this afternoon? What have I got to

608
00:31:38,810 --> 00:31:40,530
Speaker 2: do next week? What have I got to do the

609
00:31:40,570 --> 00:31:42,290
Speaker 2: week after that? What have I got to do over

610
00:31:42,330 --> 00:31:44,770
Speaker 2: the next three months? And just keep to keep doing

611
00:31:44,810 --> 00:31:47,210
Speaker 2: it and keep asking the question. And it's not because

612
00:31:47,770 --> 00:31:50,090
Speaker 2: these things can be controlled, because they can't be and

613
00:31:50,410 --> 00:31:53,450
Speaker 2: unexpected stuff happens all the time. If you're looking ahead

614
00:31:53,450 --> 00:31:55,570
Speaker 2: and you just see, oh, it's going to be a

615
00:31:55,610 --> 00:31:57,810
Speaker 2: bit of a crunch towards the end of next week,

616
00:31:58,330 --> 00:32:00,650
Speaker 2: you just you know what's happening, and you can you

617
00:32:00,690 --> 00:32:02,850
Speaker 2: can be calmer, and you haven't got this this sort

618
00:32:02,850 --> 00:32:05,850
Speaker 2: of sense of something's out of your control and you're

619
00:32:05,890 --> 00:32:06,890
Speaker 2: not quite sure what it is.

620
00:32:07,050 --> 00:32:08,330
Speaker 3: It's like going into the shed, isn't it?

621
00:32:08,370 --> 00:32:08,530
Speaker 1: You know?

622
00:32:08,570 --> 00:32:11,290
Speaker 4: Don't let them the rats nor away get in there

623
00:32:11,530 --> 00:32:12,250
Speaker 4: and face it.

624
00:32:12,490 --> 00:32:14,810
Speaker 2: One thing I would say, though, and I've been thinking

625
00:32:14,810 --> 00:32:16,570
Speaker 2: about this kind of thing for a long long time.

626
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:19,290
Speaker 2: I've read a lot of productivity books. I've written a

627
00:32:19,330 --> 00:32:21,770
Speaker 2: lot of articles for the FT about getting things done

628
00:32:21,850 --> 00:32:25,730
Speaker 2: and being productive. There is no hack, there's no piece

629
00:32:25,770 --> 00:32:28,410
Speaker 2: of advice, there's no maxim that I could give you

630
00:32:29,130 --> 00:32:33,930
Speaker 2: that I couldn't then retract, retract or give the counter example.

631
00:32:34,010 --> 00:32:37,370
Speaker 4: That's why the bookshelves are so heavily stopped, and no

632
00:32:37,450 --> 00:32:40,530
Speaker 4: one's obviously got the right answers, because self help shelves

633
00:32:40,570 --> 00:32:41,330
Speaker 4: are groaning, aren't they?

634
00:32:41,370 --> 00:32:41,810
Speaker 1: Absolutely?

635
00:32:41,930 --> 00:32:44,170
Speaker 2: Carl Jung famously wrote a letter to a patient who

636
00:32:44,210 --> 00:32:46,130
Speaker 2: asked him about this, and he said, what you're asking

637
00:32:46,170 --> 00:32:50,490
Speaker 2: me for is to be told how to live your life,

638
00:32:50,610 --> 00:32:52,090
Speaker 2: and I can't tell you how to live your life.

639
00:32:53,250 --> 00:32:56,050
Speaker 2: So Pascal, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you

640
00:32:56,130 --> 00:32:57,930
Speaker 2: for joining us on Cautionary Tales.

641
00:32:58,010 --> 00:33:00,210
Speaker 4: Thank you, I mean so great to be in the

642
00:33:00,210 --> 00:33:02,770
Speaker 4: cockpit are now I'll return to my seat in economy.

643
00:33:02,810 --> 00:33:04,010
Speaker 3: There make some sounds.

644
00:33:04,170 --> 00:33:07,650
Speaker 2: Yes, either the cockpit or economy probably a very bad

645
00:33:07,690 --> 00:33:10,170
Speaker 2: place to be, given what happens to airplanes on question

646
00:33:10,290 --> 00:33:13,330
Speaker 2: Tales A lot. Thank you to everybody who sent in

647
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:17,450
Speaker 2: their questions to Tales at Pushkin dot FM.

648
00:33:17,490 --> 00:33:19,010
Speaker 1: That's t a l e s.

649
00:33:19,530 --> 00:33:22,770
Speaker 2: Keep sending your questions in really about anything you want

650
00:33:23,010 --> 00:33:27,650
Speaker 2: about Pascal, about me, about cautioning Tales, about anything. We

651
00:33:27,730 --> 00:33:30,410
Speaker 2: will have the wonderful Jacob Goldstein back in the studio

652
00:33:30,810 --> 00:33:36,490
Speaker 2: soon enough. He is an expert on podcasting, entrepreneurship, technology,

653
00:33:36,690 --> 00:33:40,050
Speaker 2: problem solving, finance and economics. So if you have any

654
00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:44,490
Speaker 2: particular questions about those subjects send them in. But anything really,

655
00:33:44,530 --> 00:33:46,770
Speaker 2: and thank you so much for listening to Cautionary Tales

656
00:33:47,410 --> 00:33:51,890
Speaker 2: and thank you once more, Pascal Wives, great pleasure. Thanks everyone.

657
00:34:03,290 --> 00:34:07,210
Speaker 2: Cautionary Tales is written by me Tim Harford with Andrew Wright.

658
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Speaker 2: It's produced by Alice Fine with support from Edith Russlow.

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Speaker 2: The sound design and original music is the work of

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Speaker 2: Pascal Wise. Sarah Nix edited the scripts. It features the

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Speaker 2: voice talents of Ben Crowe, Melanie Gushridge, Jemma Saunders and

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Speaker 2: Rufus Wright. The show wouldn't have been possible without the

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Speaker 2: work of Jacob Weisberg, Bryan Dilly, Greta Cohne, Leitel Millard,

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Speaker 2: John Schnaz, Carlie mcgliori and Eric Sandler. Cautionary Tales is

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Speaker 2: a production of Pushkin Industries. It was recorded in Wardore

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Speaker 2: Studios in London by Tom Berry. If you like the show,

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Speaker 2: please remember to share, rate and review go on you

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Speaker 2: know it helps us And if you want to hear

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Speaker 2: the show ad free, sign up for Pushkin Plus on

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Speaker 2: the show page. In Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin, dot FM,

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Speaker 2: slash plus

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Speaker 5: Speaking about the st