Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening hunt podcast.
Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear
Speaker 1: for every hunt first like go farther, stay longer. Holy shit, man,
Speaker 1: we got so much to like. People don't even appreciate
Speaker 1: the level work that goes into this because we're right
Speaker 1: now getting rid of all the stupid stuff we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about to make more room for the main thing
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about, which is like Clovis points and
Speaker 1: Bolsom points, the hell name is meeting Menton is a
Speaker 1: Turkish name. It's Turkish. It's Turkish. My dad is Turkish.
Speaker 1: He was an immigrant over here. My mom was Irish.
Speaker 1: Shaping up as an American story. Yeah, I was born
Speaker 1: in Cleveland, and hence your hence your but and you
Speaker 1: wound up there. Yeah, And I teach them professor at
Speaker 1: Kent State, and um, I speak only one language, which
Speaker 1: is American. Didn't teach no Turkish, no Irish. But your
Speaker 1: father was born in Turkey. He was born in Turkey?
Speaker 1: Was he so he was not interested in Coloba's points
Speaker 1: as a child. No, he wanted me to be a doctor.
Speaker 1: In fact, that was the first one in several generations
Speaker 1: of my family not to go into medicine. But you
Speaker 1: are a doctor, well medical, Yeah, I don't really contact. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that's cool. I actually googled ment and before the show
Speaker 1: because I've never met anybody with that name. Do you
Speaker 1: know what it means? Yeah, it means to be well,
Speaker 1: there's lots of different uh iterations, depending if it's Arabic
Speaker 1: or Turkish. But strong in character? Wow, I dig it.
Speaker 1: Now you probably picked the best one. Though, what what
Speaker 1: would be not as Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1: Strong character, strong character, but there's other negative meetings. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Did you find someone strong? Is the
Speaker 1: only thing that I saw? Didn't dig too deep? Apparently
Speaker 1: I like it though. That was good enough for me.
Speaker 1: That and uh, tell everybody what your PhD is in.
Speaker 1: It is in archaeology, Um, but I also have degrees
Speaker 1: in experimental archaeology and anthropology. My specialties where I recreate
Speaker 1: ancient weapons and tools and then we reverse engineer them
Speaker 1: to figure out how they work. Um, So we actually
Speaker 1: have the world's premier experimental archaeology lab at Kent State
Speaker 1: where we have our own ballistics range and engineering equipment
Speaker 1: and foot napping area and forge and pottery students. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's awesome. And to come down there. Yeah, we can
Speaker 1: make any arms. Give me like an honorary degree. Yeah,
Speaker 1: a couple of honorary degrees. I like how spear is
Speaker 1: right in the title there too. Yeah, I'm experimental experiment.
Speaker 1: Come back to my ballistics lab. So if you just
Speaker 1: type that into Google, you'll you'll find our website and
Speaker 1: we have a masters that you can apply for and
Speaker 1: and get your Masters in experimental archaeology if you're interested,
Speaker 1: and we can do you. Guys do like ceramics, leathers, whatever, whatever.
Speaker 1: We've had musicians, We've had tattoo artists. Yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean we I mean, look, good grades are important, so
Speaker 1: stay in school kids, Um, But like what we are
Speaker 1: really interested in our skills that that are our take
Speaker 1: years to develop, right and and outside of the box
Speaker 1: thinking that comes with those skills. Um. We can teach
Speaker 1: you the science and what a hypothesis is and how
Speaker 1: to design a test, But what we can't teach you
Speaker 1: is you know that the twenty years it took for
Speaker 1: you to learn the viola, or the fifteen years to
Speaker 1: become a tattoo artist or a hunter or a craftsman
Speaker 1: or whatever. Um. So we welcome all sorts of people
Speaker 1: with with sort of out of the box skills to
Speaker 1: apply for our program because we can use those skills
Speaker 1: in experimental archaeological tests, because people in the past made
Speaker 1: stuff out of all sorts of materials, um, and so
Speaker 1: we want to learn all of it. We do got
Speaker 1: to talk about a couple of things. We're gonna get
Speaker 1: into this right away, because you know, I teased this
Speaker 1: episode the other day where I saw an article you
Speaker 1: were probably involved in it saying basically the headline was
Speaker 1: like Clovis ain't all that, and it said they couldn't
Speaker 1: actually get anything because their points sucked pretty much. Do
Speaker 1: you think that's true. Well, that's the case, let's cancel
Speaker 1: the let's canceled this, and we're gonna put all the
Speaker 1: other stuff back in and not gonna talk about it.
Speaker 1: So I think the issue is not that the cloths
Speaker 1: point suck. It's just that they're not like a stone
Speaker 1: age a K. Forty seven. They're not a paleolithic Bazooka
Speaker 1: where he basically you can wake up one day and
Speaker 1: just decide, you know what, I'm gonna get me a mammoth.
Speaker 1: I haven't had mammoth in a while. So, so were
Speaker 1: you involved in that paper? I was the first author
Speaker 1: of that. See, I wasn't up Speed of the Year that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know it was showing around. Um, you know that
Speaker 1: I said that. I said, what they're trying to do
Speaker 1: is emasculate Clovis. Do you feel that you're trying to
Speaker 1: emasculate clothes? Oh no, not at all, because Clovis folks
Speaker 1: that use Clovis technology are awesome. You think they're badass? Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: So it's possible to love, just to stop worrying and
Speaker 1: love Clovis. Definitely. I just think mammoths, in some ways
Speaker 1: we're more badass. That's a good way of looking at it. Um,
Speaker 1: we're gonna solve. Are you prepared to do this too?
Speaker 1: And this is something that that uh, you know, Clay
Speaker 1: and I have Clay Newcom there's one of the guys
Speaker 1: who work with He has a very wonderful podcast, um
Speaker 1: called Bear Grease, and he and I are off and
Speaker 1: on like a little parallel Paths of discovery, and he
Speaker 1: was recently doing a piece about the fulsome type site
Speaker 1: and invited a guest of his to knock the channel
Speaker 1: flake out of a falsome point? Are you prepared to
Speaker 1: knock a channel flake out of something? Definitely right here
Speaker 1: in front of my very eyes? You know, I got
Speaker 1: these brand new glasses on. I brought goggles as well,
Speaker 1: so nothing will get in anyone. Learn me to the fact.
Speaker 1: You could buy five pairs for like ten bucks, which
Speaker 1: I feel like it's probably not good for your eyeballs,
Speaker 1: but that's what I did because I'm sickly. I had
Speaker 1: one pair and lost him, and I'm gonna have suns
Speaker 1: bitches everywhere. I don't think they're bad for your eyes.
Speaker 1: I think the other the other things bad for your wallet.
Speaker 1: It's a racket you have, But two bucks man, looking
Speaker 1: through something to cost two bucks seems like not a
Speaker 1: good idea to me. I might even had a sticker
Speaker 1: that said two dollars on him. Well, no, I was wrong.
Speaker 1: I thought it wasn't. I realized I meant two as
Speaker 1: Oh you're up to two man, Yeah, getting bad. Quick
Speaker 1: question for Hayden, how come so many days have gone
Speaker 1: by and you haven't fixed the artwork. I was actually
Speaker 1: gonna get in touch with you, but you were in
Speaker 1: Mexico and I was gonna ask if you wanted to
Speaker 1: have that buffalo print more professionally framed before I went
Speaker 1: and hung it up the bottom one, Okay, James j Yeah,
Speaker 1: Jamie wild Arts said, that's a custom. Yeah, that's from
Speaker 1: It's from a dream vision of mine, of of wolves
Speaker 1: eating a buffalo alive and and pulling it in pusens
Speaker 1: out and eating it while it stands. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it captures the reality. And she sent that framed. The
Speaker 1: gentleman that did that buffalo school, uh sent it in
Speaker 1: a nice frame. The frame broke and so Kylie went
Speaker 1: and got it. So it's more of an issue between
Speaker 1: you and Kylie. I was expecting you to lower the
Speaker 1: one and raise the other one like you had said,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I didn't ask you to do it,
Speaker 1: you just offered it. I didn't want to rank them,
Speaker 1: just weird. It's all good to be here, but hey,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna compliment saying with you. It's too late, isn't it. Well,
Speaker 1: let me go back like you look great today. Thanks,
Speaker 1: And then the top compliment is, um, tell everybody what
Speaker 1: you just made, because that was the best thing I rate.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thanks man. It was a bourbon liver and
Speaker 1: smoked trout pat a and uh that was the grease
Speaker 1: on top. That was just bacon fat, just training bacon fat.
Speaker 1: Keep it nice. It was good fat cap Yep, thanks,
Speaker 1: really good first bourbon too. So six pounder. Uh, their
Speaker 1: liver is like what or something like that, it's some
Speaker 1: outrageous percentage of their body weight. Yeah, it was a huge. Man.
Speaker 1: I just saw it. I was like, oh, there's no
Speaker 1: way you could chuck that thing. It just looked good
Speaker 1: to eat. Now, my friends in Alaska turn me on
Speaker 1: and just taking it. They just cut it thin and
Speaker 1: you don't want to sit there and eat it for
Speaker 1: an hour, but it's kind of fun. Let's like drink
Speaker 1: a beer whatever, crackers. They cut the liver thin and
Speaker 1: don't put oil on the panks or so much oil anyways,
Speaker 1: and just give it a little ship on a hot
Speaker 1: on a hot, dry skillet. That's bourbon. Just you should
Speaker 1: eat some of that and see if it's screws you up.
Speaker 1: They're just trailing it though on your eye or something. Yeah, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: bourbon liver. See if you have a reaction to just
Speaker 1: smears him on your eye and see if it gets
Speaker 1: itchy or however they do it down there. I don't know,
Speaker 1: um Chester, can you super quick give us a date
Speaker 1: on the Walleye situation. Yeah, Seth and I are growing.
Speaker 1: Our excitement is just like going through the roof because
Speaker 1: we have a few very excited. We have quite a
Speaker 1: few people reaching out to us, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: have a further conversation of what getting us a boat
Speaker 1: for the summer would would look like in terms of
Speaker 1: maybe partnerships and whatnot. And uh yeah, it's some great companies.
Speaker 1: Um you can name that boat with Steve Rino if
Speaker 1: it comes through this the fact that I'm always trying
Speaker 1: to promote it, that's a that's a decent name. But man,
Speaker 1: there's just so many other boat names out there that
Speaker 1: are the biggest thing here is there's gonna be two
Speaker 1: boats sitting idle no for the summer if they do
Speaker 1: get Walleye boat sponsorship, which means you guys get like
Speaker 1: a real boat that boat. Those other two boats are
Speaker 1: going to spend their summer as like company boats. Really.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well yeah, that's that's fair. Anybody, if we
Speaker 1: get this one boat, anybody is welcome to use my
Speaker 1: boat anytime and also on the tournament season, because what
Speaker 1: if you've got to have it ready to go. I'm well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm saying just in general, like with all of the
Speaker 1: boats my boat. I'm sure I can speak for Seth
Speaker 1: to my boat, Seth's boat, this company boat. Like I
Speaker 1: want to get out fishing as much as I can,
Speaker 1: so anybody that wants to go fishing, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: let's go fishing. And we've got to share the wealth.
Speaker 1: So if a if A if a prominent boat manufacturer,
Speaker 1: and that this is a race, a prominent boat manufacturer
Speaker 1: comes and says, I want in I want Chester and
Speaker 1: Seth to do this Walleye tournament series for me eater
Speaker 1: in our boat because it would give us more marketing
Speaker 1: impressions than perhaps any other thing we've ever engaged in.
Speaker 1: You're saying that, I mean you're When that happens, this
Speaker 1: boat will be Other people will be allowed to fish
Speaker 1: this boat. Of course, And what what is the ideal
Speaker 1: walleye boat look like for in Montana? Um, well, there's
Speaker 1: a bunch of different things. For the ideal walleye boat
Speaker 1: in general is a bigger boat because a lot of no, no,
Speaker 1: like I mean like an eighteen nine glass boat. Fiberglass
Speaker 1: boat is ideal. You want something that's a little heavier.
Speaker 1: Reason being is because a lot of great walleye fishing
Speaker 1: in this area is on bigger reservoirs, and once the
Speaker 1: wind picks up and starts ripping, if you're in a
Speaker 1: little sixteen foot boat like the one I have currently,
Speaker 1: it can actually be dangerous. So meaning like you could
Speaker 1: be trapped out there swamp your boat, um because of
Speaker 1: the waves. Is it fair to say that these major
Speaker 1: boat manufacturers are toying with your life? Chester No, because
Speaker 1: they could buy their their lack of a response, their
Speaker 1: inactivity could actually lead to your drowning. Is that fair
Speaker 1: to say? Well, just think of the jump. I'm a
Speaker 1: pretty careful dude. The jumping A boat manufacturer who wants
Speaker 1: to get into the bigs is gonna have by picking
Speaker 1: these guys up. There's there's a design out there that's
Speaker 1: just been waiting for its opportunity to be big. Chat
Speaker 1: and South are gonna take it to the top. Mega impressions.
Speaker 1: Do you have to do anything official to become a pro.
Speaker 1: This is gonna do for walleye boats what Over the
Speaker 1: Top did for arm wrestling. That's right. People are gonna
Speaker 1: be switching their hats around backwards saying turn it on, Brody.
Speaker 1: I don't I think I mean yet to become a pro.
Speaker 1: I think you gotta one be entered into like a
Speaker 1: pro circuit um. And it depends on the series like
Speaker 1: bass turning and so I know, like there's to be
Speaker 1: considered a pro, you have to have a certain amount
Speaker 1: of winnings. There's like sponsorships involved, there's like pro tournaments
Speaker 1: that you So you guys got to work your way
Speaker 1: up to that. Yeah. But my goal to this whole
Speaker 1: thing is like I don't need to be a pro.
Speaker 1: I want to become the best angler that I can be.
Speaker 1: And catching wile and figuring while out is a very
Speaker 1: good way to become a good angler in multi Like
Speaker 1: if you can figure out how catch while you can
Speaker 1: be a pretty damn good bass angler. Um things like that.
Speaker 1: So it's talking at my heart strings. Man, I'm so excited,
Speaker 1: especially now that Seth doesn't have to that he can
Speaker 1: do all the tournaments. Oh, because did we get the
Speaker 1: wedding adjusted yeah, because do you hear what we found
Speaker 1: out then in Montana it's one of very few states,
Speaker 1: a couple of states where you can have a proxy.
Speaker 1: You don't need to be at your own wedding. Um.
Speaker 1: Problem solved. Some people see problems, we see solutions. We're
Speaker 1: gonna get back to this stone point stuff. Hardcore. H Oh.
Speaker 1: You know what I was. I flew today and I was,
Speaker 1: you know a Salt Lake City has those huge I
Speaker 1: had to fly home this morning. Salt Lake City has
Speaker 1: those enormous escalators. Like the amount of people that don't
Speaker 1: walk on there and just stand there. It's like, you're
Speaker 1: you're in such good shape. You're in such good shape
Speaker 1: that you don't even need to get this little bit
Speaker 1: of exercise. That's how going to shape you're in. That's
Speaker 1: what you're telling me. It sounds like you were about
Speaker 1: to miss your flight. Huh. I was, But I was like, also,
Speaker 1: everybody's so well exercised they can afford to just stand here. Well,
Speaker 1: I don't even think it's that. It's like very rarely
Speaker 1: in an airport for me, am I not needing to
Speaker 1: get to another place, and so when the escalators there,
Speaker 1: I'm not like, oh this is doing it for me.
Speaker 1: If I just keep walking, I'm there fast. It's meant
Speaker 1: to like, Yeah, it's into make your efforts pay off
Speaker 1: even better. Yeah, like the moving walkways standing on Oh
Speaker 1: my god, it drives me nuts. Uh to go positive
Speaker 1: for a minute, Um, brodie, Now are gonna talk about
Speaker 1: something for the until people can't stand here about it anymore.
Speaker 1: We're gonna start talking about it right now. So, uh,
Speaker 1: when I had children. When I began having children in
Speaker 1: two thousand ten, my boy was born, Um, the it
Speaker 1: really hit me like, Um, how do you sort of
Speaker 1: like as a person that grew up um outdoors hunting
Speaker 1: and fishing and had like what I regard to be
Speaker 1: like a very sort of productive educational relationship to um
Speaker 1: nature and outdoors. And I had kids, and right away
Speaker 1: I'm like, God, like I want to like do that
Speaker 1: for them. And it's hard. Um. And even back then,
Speaker 1: I thought, someday I want to like do a book
Speaker 1: about kids in the outdoors, which is largely about it
Speaker 1: has a lot to do with just the anxieties that
Speaker 1: come from having kids and and wanting to engage them
Speaker 1: around nature and just loking hard it is. Yeah, it's hard,
Speaker 1: hard to get everyone out the door. That's the hardest
Speaker 1: part by far. I mean, you know, the mittens and
Speaker 1: cleaning up dirty kids and stuff along the way, and
Speaker 1: dealing with cold kids is difficult. But get them out
Speaker 1: there's the hard part. Uh. I remember one of the
Speaker 1: things I remember when my kids are really little, taking
Speaker 1: them up to our fish shack, and I was trying
Speaker 1: to uh I was. I was imploring my wife, like,
Speaker 1: we're not gonna bring a ton of clothes. They got
Speaker 1: to learn to wear them dry. They got learned to
Speaker 1: wear them dry. You get it wet, you just keep
Speaker 1: it on. Like I were to see in close seven
Speaker 1: days in a row, it gets wet, you wear it,
Speaker 1: it dries, and you don't need all these clothes. So
Speaker 1: she I finally get her convinced to go on this
Speaker 1: dry program, and we get there and my little boy,
Speaker 1: my littlest boy at the time, wades out to his
Speaker 1: belly button out in the salt water and ships his pants,
Speaker 1: and so I'm being like, she's like, yeah, my wife's like,
Speaker 1: where are this dry? It's like, everything is so hard.
Speaker 1: The amount of times I've seen your youngest kid get
Speaker 1: wet is unbelievable. It's about every time. You know what
Speaker 1: my goal is, I'm gonna go get wet, whether it's
Speaker 1: jumping into ice hole, taking his shoes off with his
Speaker 1: socks in the mud when we're salmon fishing. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've laughed a hundred times about last year ice fishing.
Speaker 1: I can remember my birthday ice fishing last year and
Speaker 1: my daughter skating up her her brother are in the
Speaker 1: shanny and her riding up on ice skates. Sand I
Speaker 1: got bad news and there isn't any good news. Matthew
Speaker 1: felm the whole both feet, both feet into one hole,
Speaker 1: which is like, seems impossible fish shack when your oldest
Speaker 1: broke his arm right immediately before the trip, and so
Speaker 1: you have a kid, he was young kid in a
Speaker 1: cast with the very serious warning of do not get
Speaker 1: this wet. And I mean it was like maybe six
Speaker 1: It was less than a professional bull ride for sure,
Speaker 1: maybe maybe six seconds. Right. It's like we're unloading stuff
Speaker 1: at the fish shack and you turn around and he's
Speaker 1: just like elbowed and you're like, huh that all where
Speaker 1: that draft in the in the book I'm about to plug.
Speaker 1: I actually talked about that because, um, my wife not
Speaker 1: coming from outdoors background always thinks that everything UM that
Speaker 1: I take the kids to is like dangerous or used
Speaker 1: to like, oh, guns are dangerous, hunting is dangerous, wild
Speaker 1: and moles. Every time my kids wind up in a
Speaker 1: UM emergency rooms because of something she did. Got him
Speaker 1: a swing set, broken arm, got him a lego kit,
Speaker 1: Stitches in his head from falling a lego, got him
Speaker 1: a scooter, Stitches in his head from the scooter. Every time,
Speaker 1: it was like, that was your thing, all my super
Speaker 1: dangerous shit. No one's ever had any problem just getting wet. No,
Speaker 1: they get wet, she does something for me. They break
Speaker 1: a bone, didn't you guys get a little visit from
Speaker 1: like Protective Services at one point? Man, Like they're like, so, yeah,
Speaker 1: when we got hurt and we weren't looking, and they
Speaker 1: kept keeping us there and dragging it on, and eventually
Speaker 1: they come in. And this guy comes in and the
Speaker 1: first thing out of his mouth is like, um, what
Speaker 1: are the strengths and weaknesses of your marriage? I'm like,
Speaker 1: are you kidding me? Man? Yeah? It's like you gotta
Speaker 1: heard his leg uh jumping off the couch. So anyways,
Speaker 1: a but for preorder now, Brodie and I've worked on
Speaker 1: this book, A bunch um outdoor kids in an inside world.
Speaker 1: It was it was a it was a project. Man.
Speaker 1: It's a veil preorder all over the place. Get it now.
Speaker 1: It's a release date May second or something like that.
Speaker 1: And it's it's it's an argument. It's inside. It's an
Speaker 1: argument for and insights into getting your kids, as we
Speaker 1: put it, radically engaged with nature. That's awesome. I have
Speaker 1: a six year old and I've been worrying about this
Speaker 1: quite a lot, just getting him outside because he's on
Speaker 1: TV and video games and all the sorce. I got
Speaker 1: him a dog, and now he's outside with the dog
Speaker 1: all time, walking him all this sort of stuff. So
Speaker 1: little victory, but it's you know, you gotta keep that,
Speaker 1: keep that. It is a battle, but it's one of
Speaker 1: the most important things I think as parents we can
Speaker 1: do today is get kids outside. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: I think for both in terms of engagement with um,
Speaker 1: like just in engagement with ecology and engagement with environmental
Speaker 1: issues and also just having like a little grit and
Speaker 1: girl man, Like I don't know, I see value. And
Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's it's the only way. There's like
Speaker 1: many paths too, like many paths too. You know, I
Speaker 1: know I have great friends who raise kids in Manhattan
Speaker 1: and their kids are brilliant, compassionate, wonderful, right, Like, they
Speaker 1: don't do really anything outside. I'm not saying that that's
Speaker 1: the only way to get somewhere, but especially a situation
Speaker 1: like me is where that's the stuff that I value
Speaker 1: and I want to like take my bag of tricks
Speaker 1: and apply it to parenting definitely, you know, because like
Speaker 1: I want them to see people doing things that they're
Speaker 1: passionate about. So it's like, and I see people all
Speaker 1: the time, like everybody names your kid Hunter. That's what
Speaker 1: they're hoping for. But you know, we've been outside for
Speaker 1: six million years. Mean, so might stop now exactly bail
Speaker 1: with pre order? Now? That was a spirited pitch. Oh,
Speaker 1: Brody and Cal both out something with a tag and
Speaker 1: it can you guys explain? Did you know that he
Speaker 1: got some of the tag? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I caught
Speaker 1: a tagged yellow perch the other day through the ice
Speaker 1: down on Late Cascade in Idaho, um which is a
Speaker 1: marketing term, right it's it's a reservoir. But nevertheless, you
Speaker 1: what do you think they should have called it cascade? Reservoir.
Speaker 1: They should call it jumbo perch. Yeah, I mean thirty
Speaker 1: one thousand. We'll put it this way. There's one tagged
Speaker 1: fish for every thirty seven acres of that lake, which
Speaker 1: is just yeah, I mean I was so excited, so excited.
Speaker 1: It was just I mean I love that stuff. And
Speaker 1: it's uh, you know, it's like getting a tag you're
Speaker 1: a banded duck or banded goose or something like that.
Speaker 1: Didn't have a like a phone number on it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it's a coated wire tag. You know. It's not
Speaker 1: like a tracking tag or transmitter tag or anything like that.
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can call in, Um did you just
Speaker 1: call in? Act? I called on on the Unfortunately, it's
Speaker 1: like automated, you know, um, and there you know, and
Speaker 1: then they're doing like the normal biologist thing of like
Speaker 1: while we got you on the line, we're gonna try
Speaker 1: to extract even more information from you, you know, like
Speaker 1: how far did you drive, did you enjoy your experience,
Speaker 1: how would you rate your experience, did you like the fish,
Speaker 1: how would you rate your fish? How far did you drive? Oh,
Speaker 1: I mean it's because they wanted to know, like what
Speaker 1: your level of commitment was, right, It was a long
Speaker 1: I mean a long haul get into that uh Cascade reservoir.
Speaker 1: Uh did you say the tag? Do you to keep it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I mean I had every intention of keeping the tag,
Speaker 1: and I put it in the front pocket of my bibs.
Speaker 1: And I must have you know, I had other fish
Speaker 1: and stuff in there, and I must have been around
Speaker 1: the gin around. You're keeping your fish in the front
Speaker 1: pocket of your bibs. I was keeping just the tag
Speaker 1: the front pocket of the bibbs because it was very
Speaker 1: obvious to remember which fish it was, because it was
Speaker 1: a fifteen and a half inch two plus pound perch.
Speaker 1: So you put the tagged fish in the pocket, or
Speaker 1: you pulled the tag out and pulled the tag out
Speaker 1: as if did at that point you had a bunch
Speaker 1: of fish. I'm gonna keep it. Yeah, yeah, hearing out
Speaker 1: of it. But I have I have all the data
Speaker 1: because you did get it. You did get it. You
Speaker 1: lost it after getting everything you needed. Don't you think
Speaker 1: it will turn up though? Yeah? I hope. So I
Speaker 1: looked looked all over. Um, but yeah, that, I mean
Speaker 1: that was super cool, like what what what are the odds?
Speaker 1: And the fact that it was a huge fish. Um,
Speaker 1: And really just you know, like looking on the map
Speaker 1: looking for old river channels and stuff and poking holes
Speaker 1: through the ice. There wasn't anything like super crazy about it.
Speaker 1: You know. It's just of serious luck of the draw thing.
Speaker 1: I don't win anything, so that was fun. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: did you get any information on that fish, like as
Speaker 1: far as like how old it was, uh, not age
Speaker 1: because it was tagged as a grown up right right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it was tagged a year prior, basically a year
Speaker 1: prior at fourteen point six inches in length, and we
Speaker 1: measured it at fifteen and a half inches in length.
Speaker 1: So the odd anomaly there is that it grew really
Speaker 1: really fast in comparison to all their other fish, like
Speaker 1: the rates of growth or are real slow, which I
Speaker 1: pointed out to cal Um. It's actually a negative commentary
Speaker 1: on his angling skills, right, it's like that fish because
Speaker 1: their fish everything. Um. The one of the most amazing
Speaker 1: things that I learned down there was that they've taken
Speaker 1: a lot of pictures of the growth rings on their
Speaker 1: gill play. They're gorgeous, um and on. So the odo
Speaker 1: lith that earbone that you typically read about folks aging
Speaker 1: fish off of, well on yellow perch the um the
Speaker 1: big gill plate with a little spike on the back.
Speaker 1: Actually you can age as well, and you just boil
Speaker 1: that thing out, scrape the meat off of it, put
Speaker 1: it underneath the um like backlight it and you should
Speaker 1: be able to see some rings. If you can get
Speaker 1: a microscope, you can see all the rings. Uh. And
Speaker 1: that's that's cool. We should mess around with that a
Speaker 1: little bit. Get get set up for that. Yeah, be
Speaker 1: real fun. You're gonna get it soft, you're gonna eat it.
Speaker 1: What is h already ate it? Oh? You know that
Speaker 1: might have been a good idea to get it stuffed
Speaker 1: with it. So here's the funny fish stuffed is all
Speaker 1: a lie. They don't have to fish. They don't stuff
Speaker 1: to fish, which is fine because then you can release
Speaker 1: it if you want to. You can get the measurements
Speaker 1: and pictures and release it and right listen, man, I
Speaker 1: see what you're getting at. It's a lie. It's a lie.
Speaker 1: It's it's a big fish tail. But so here's the
Speaker 1: funny thing. Like I sent that picture to Chester and
Speaker 1: Seth and like, well that'd be something to consider actually mounting.
Speaker 1: And I was like I kind of would be neat
Speaker 1: and what would that be Like, well, Um, I'm talking
Speaker 1: with biologistic fishing game Jordan Messner and he's like, yeah, hey,
Speaker 1: the Idaho Fishing Game. And he's like, hey, swing in
Speaker 1: to the office. We have a reproduction of the world
Speaker 1: record catch and release perch. And I was like, all right, sweet.
Speaker 1: So going to the office, I'm looking at all the
Speaker 1: mounts on the wall. Key back up. Okay, why were
Speaker 1: you on the phone with him? I had to return
Speaker 1: his hockey skates. I borrowed his. Uh. And while okay,
Speaker 1: and while arranging this hockey skate drop off, he says,
Speaker 1: you ought to ye, I got you. Yeah, because I
Speaker 1: was skating. We were conversing with him about the tagged perch. No,
Speaker 1: I actually called him. He was on the ice about
Speaker 1: a quarter mile away from us, and he zipped over
Speaker 1: and checked it out. It was awesome. Um and uh
Speaker 1: and we got into a bunch of arguments on stuff,
Speaker 1: and you know, it was very educational. But um in
Speaker 1: the office looking at all the amounts and stuff, right,
Speaker 1: And he comes in and he's like, yeah, there it is.
Speaker 1: And I've been looking at this fish and it didn't
Speaker 1: strike me as abnormally large or anything. He climbs up
Speaker 1: on the wall, pulls them out down. I was like, yeah, here,
Speaker 1: check it out. And you know, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, it's just a fifteen and a half inch fish.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not like I got one of those
Speaker 1: in my pocket out of context. Out of context, it's
Speaker 1: just like not that impressive. But when you're out there
Speaker 1: perch fishing and pulling perch up through the ice. I
Speaker 1: mean I was on cloud night. I was incredibly excited, stoked.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the mouth comes up and you're like,
Speaker 1: I can put my whole thumb in that. You know,
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's like a little bit harder to talk
Speaker 1: about big perch because a big perch is still a
Speaker 1: small fish, and so people are thinking they're going to
Speaker 1: see a big fish, but they see what to them
Speaker 1: is a small fish. And then you have to go
Speaker 1: into this whole thing about how it's actually a big perch. Right,
Speaker 1: it's like like the keys white tail, right, Well, actually
Speaker 1: that's not like yeah exactly, this is no. This is
Speaker 1: a very big version of a very small thing. And
Speaker 1: the thing you get all the time is uh, is
Speaker 1: that your first ear? Yeah? But it was cool you
Speaker 1: got a tag Kyle help. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't
Speaker 1: notice it was tagged until I was cutting her ivory's
Speaker 1: out because it was it was pretty small. Um. Oh yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: here's the tag and put my spectacles back on. Metally
Speaker 1: your tag? Um, so that was that was pretty interesting.
Speaker 1: They leave you, They leave you a phone number on
Speaker 1: there to call. You're you're in violation of the law
Speaker 1: right now, No, I'm not to the biologists because it
Speaker 1: does return to MF W P on the reporter right now? Um,
Speaker 1: are they letting you keep this? He didn't ask for
Speaker 1: it back? What what's the stats on the cow? She
Speaker 1: was tagged on February first, two thousand and fourteen, so
Speaker 1: that was eight years ago. Tag three miles from where
Speaker 1: I shot her, so not all that far for an
Speaker 1: elk um and she was I think he said she
Speaker 1: was two and a half years old when she was tagged,
Speaker 1: so she's going on eleven years old. Did you feel
Speaker 1: bad here in that? No? She was a big ass cow,
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that. Um her Look how look at
Speaker 1: how worn down her eyes? Oh yeah, man, she's knocking
Speaker 1: on Heaven's door there, yea, but choose in great shape.
Speaker 1: She was huge. Wow, look at that she the lead cow. No,
Speaker 1: She's like, there's about a hundred of them, and she
Speaker 1: was like, it's a long story, but I've never seen
Speaker 1: an ibady look like that. I know, kid, you pretty
Speaker 1: much pull those things out with your face down to Calahan,
Speaker 1: has he seen that yet? Know? They were anchored in
Speaker 1: their fine And no, she wasn't a lead cal Chester.
Speaker 1: She was just one of a hundred. Um, there was
Speaker 1: an albino in the herd, which was real, real cool
Speaker 1: to see. The biologist how we didn't shoot that one
Speaker 1: because it was surrounded by a hundred other elk. This
Speaker 1: one was off to the side, you know. Yeah, these
Speaker 1: ivories are not like ivories that much different than their
Speaker 1: actual like milk teeth that you'd pull out of it.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, those milk teeth on calves are real narrow
Speaker 1: and pointy. Though. Um the uh that's awesome. Oh you
Speaker 1: were asking about the albino. Yeah, no interest and shooting.
Speaker 1: The biology knew about that elk. Oh yeah he said
Speaker 1: he knew, he knew that. That heard that demystifies it. Yep, yep. Um.
Speaker 1: Remember we covered dismember. There was like a famous moose
Speaker 1: in New Hampshire. Something was it was kind of pie
Speaker 1: alder albino and a guy got it. Everybody got pised
Speaker 1: because they've been seeing it around. I mean they see
Speaker 1: all of them around. They because remember that one. If
Speaker 1: I only seen one and it was albino, I don't
Speaker 1: know what i'd do. But um, yeah, I learned some
Speaker 1: interesting stuff that heard that I shot her out of
Speaker 1: The biologist said, there, it's triple what he would like
Speaker 1: to see, the numbers in population. Yes, I'm just telling
Speaker 1: you what an actual scientist told me. But but but
Speaker 1: but I know a few of those fellas, and um,
Speaker 1: that's great. But as I always ask, like according to who, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you an example, like because like
Speaker 1: he said, the next herd to the south, which you
Speaker 1: cannot hunt. It's in the same unit, but there's a
Speaker 1: boundary that you can't cross. That heard, you can't hunt
Speaker 1: because there much lower than what he'd like to see.
Speaker 1: That they consider just driving something scurry and something over
Speaker 1: the well, maybe air dropping him in there. But you know,
Speaker 1: I thought it was an interesting example. Capacity thing or
Speaker 1: is it a social issue. I'm sure it's a combination
Speaker 1: of both. This heard, he said, spends the majority of
Speaker 1: its time on private Land, so that social part might
Speaker 1: be part of it. Listen, I'm not down on the
Speaker 1: social thing. I'm just saying like, well, I hear, like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're this kid that would call me. I
Speaker 1: can't figure it out. There's this kid that reached out
Speaker 1: and uh, he's he wanted to interview me, like he
Speaker 1: his state doesn't he's a high school or his state
Speaker 1: doesn't have a black bear hunt. Maybe he's from Connecticut,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. And he wrote a really nice letter
Speaker 1: that Corey forward aloto me stay in the black bear hunt.
Speaker 1: He's making like a class he has to do it.
Speaker 1: He hasn't make a documentary for his class in high school,
Speaker 1: and he wants to make a documentary by how they
Speaker 1: should have a black bear hunt. And he wanted to
Speaker 1: interview me, and like his documentary focus is going to
Speaker 1: be that if we don't have a black bear hunt,
Speaker 1: there will be too many black bears and it will
Speaker 1: cause all these problems. And I said, call me, you're
Speaker 1: barking up the wrong tree. And he hasn't called me.
Speaker 1: Like that's not gonna like, no one's gonna be like
Speaker 1: we're just overrun with high school. I was gonna say, no,
Speaker 1: high schooler wants to go rewrite there, or maybe you
Speaker 1: just I'm just saying like you're not like like that's
Speaker 1: not a convincing argument to people. Like people aren't gonna
Speaker 1: picture they're not. It's like there's a hundred other ways
Speaker 1: to approach it, but approaching like that all the time,
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, if we don't, we're gonna be overrun
Speaker 1: by bears. It's like probably not thought it was interesting
Speaker 1: that it was a case of like heard by herd management,
Speaker 1: like yeah, I got you. I'm just like, it's just
Speaker 1: people I think jump a little bit. I used to
Speaker 1: just accepted at face value over like over objective, overpopulated,
Speaker 1: and but once you get into you realize this is
Speaker 1: just a million factors that going like according to who
Speaker 1: is like, automobile insurers have a perspective on deer numbers, right, uh,
Speaker 1: Triple A has a perspective on deer numbers. Agriculture has
Speaker 1: a perspective on deer numbers. Um subdivisions with a lot
Speaker 1: of expensive what do you call it landscaping have a
Speaker 1: perspective on deer hunter deer numbers, and it doesn't always
Speaker 1: mirror the perspective of a deer hunter dear, I'm trying.
Speaker 1: I'm saying, dear, dear, numbers. That's all, you know, all
Speaker 1: of this. Um, I got one hot fact I forgot
Speaker 1: to throw in there. On the perch. How how old
Speaker 1: is perch? How old is the oldest perch? Years old?
Speaker 1: Oh that's high. I hope people do that to me
Speaker 1: seven anybody else? Twelve nine six, So prior to late Cascade,
Speaker 1: which now has I think two world records and and
Speaker 1: all the Idaho state records. Um, there's a perch age
Speaker 1: and I think in Wyoming and nine years old now,
Speaker 1: like Cascade is just like in this crazy zone of
Speaker 1: like they're positive these fish are dying of old age.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure at what rate, but their oldest recorded
Speaker 1: perches fourteen just a special perch place. Are they worried
Speaker 1: about that fishery crashing? You know how perch populations can.
Speaker 1: So it's gone through several down down periods. Um, But
Speaker 1: it's like what's considered a crash type of thing, and
Speaker 1: and a perch crash is typically like that missing age
Speaker 1: class and and how strong the next age classes or
Speaker 1: the previous age class was to where anglers will notice it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so sometimes it will change like you'll have a fishery
Speaker 1: with like big fish like they have there, and then
Speaker 1: something happens and it's just a lot of little fish. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you boys might have to take off. That's a good one.
Speaker 1: Speaking of records, that was a good cran. Speaking of records,
Speaker 1: a guy wrote in about he's curious, like he was
Speaker 1: disappointed to see that in Boone and Crockett you can't
Speaker 1: enter a squirrel just like a bear. And he's like yeah,
Speaker 1: but he's like, well, how would you measure it? Anyways?
Speaker 1: And I was going to explain him that anything that
Speaker 1: doesn't have antlers is just skull size, So like black bears,
Speaker 1: there's nothing to do turkey. Yeah, but I think I
Speaker 1: think that that's a I don't mean to be Debbie
Speaker 1: Downer to day, but the way they do turkeys, I
Speaker 1: think is a real stretch, because what do you like
Speaker 1: about it? Because it has multiple beards, you get to
Speaker 1: keep measuring all the beards. If you had multiple antlers,
Speaker 1: you'd keep measuring the antlers. All right, Okay, explain that.
Speaker 1: Let me do this first. With the exception of turkeys,
Speaker 1: everything I'm aware of in the mammal Okay, let me
Speaker 1: put it this way. Everything I'm worried of in the
Speaker 1: mammal kingdom, and the mammal world is not a kingdom?
Speaker 1: Is it? What is it? And may amals uh? If
Speaker 1: it doesn't have antlers you just measured, it's Lengthen with
Speaker 1: the skull, I don't think I can argue with that.
Speaker 1: So to be consistent, I don't think he's the one.
Speaker 1: Can he should they measure the tail the weight. I
Speaker 1: think it's just it would just wind up needing to
Speaker 1: be like if you're gonna do a fox squirrel world record,
Speaker 1: I think you have to keep it clean, and you
Speaker 1: do length of skull plus width of skull, and it's
Speaker 1: just like that's how mountain lions bears have Lina's. It's
Speaker 1: like all that stuff done that way. So I don't
Speaker 1: think you could break from that. Spencer brings up the
Speaker 1: very good point that they came up with what he's
Speaker 1: after for squirrels in the Turkey world, so he'd be
Speaker 1: like he'd be like weight of squirrel plus inches of tail, YadA, YadA, YadA.
Speaker 1: You've got a personal stake in this, right, No, I
Speaker 1: thought you did. I thought you had some kind of
Speaker 1: I have the South Dakota Archery real grand record. Okay
Speaker 1: you do. Yeah, it's a triple bearded bird. I shot
Speaker 1: in so that's a non So you've done what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about where you keep measuring the beard. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: like scoring them. It's just like fun man. So off
Speaker 1: top my head. I think you figure out the spur
Speaker 1: length on both legs and then you take that times ten.
Speaker 1: So if you have one spurs one inch, okay, so
Speaker 1: you got you know, two, you got twenty. I think
Speaker 1: you take all your beard lengths times too sure, and
Speaker 1: then you have your weight, which there's no modifier on.
Speaker 1: Well why not why not be like in times by three. Well,
Speaker 1: I think my guests an event to scoring, it's too
Speaker 1: uh like make the numbers fairly yeah, because you have
Speaker 1: a twenty two pound turkey who has two inch spurs.
Speaker 1: Now you have twenty plus twenty two and then say
Speaker 1: you have a nine inch beard, times to eighteen, so
Speaker 1: they're fairly like we're trying to give equal weight and
Speaker 1: all these things because some guy could shoot. I get it,
Speaker 1: because you should have Turkey is a little eight on weight.
Speaker 1: He's been rotten, hard, has been eaten, but he's got
Speaker 1: like big limb hangers, big hooks and that guy is
Speaker 1: gonna get screwed. I like this guy's idea. Um, I
Speaker 1: think one issue would be overall weight. There's not a
Speaker 1: lot of critters you shoot where they may lose weight
Speaker 1: because of like where your twenty two bullet passed through
Speaker 1: or something like that. Should you hear my my turkey
Speaker 1: competition story? So I was enrolled in uh some town
Speaker 1: by Doug drn and Dug durn doesn't like people from
Speaker 1: this town. It's ah el Roy. Yeah, this is a
Speaker 1: whole funny story. That's what I feel like. I told
Speaker 1: the story though there the drunkards of el Roy had
Speaker 1: a turkey derby, and uh, I'm mostly joke about Dog's
Speaker 1: distaste for el Roy. Doug talks about Elroy like it's
Speaker 1: the other side of the planet, but it's like about
Speaker 1: a five minute driveways. What's so funny about it because
Speaker 1: he's like talks like, oh my god, over in el Roy.
Speaker 1: I'm like talking, it's right there to Wisconsin. So anyways,
Speaker 1: and now I was signed up for the Elroy Turkey
Speaker 1: Derby and it just goes by way of bird. But
Speaker 1: I gutted my turkey, so I bring it up. It
Speaker 1: was a huge turkey and I bring it down and
Speaker 1: I was like leading, and then I got beat by
Speaker 1: some other guy, but not like a gut's worth of lead.
Speaker 1: He beat me by like not a gut, like a
Speaker 1: full gut amount. Days later, we stopped in that bar
Speaker 1: because this guy hunt with had to go find this
Speaker 1: old man who is always down there, and we're going
Speaker 1: and they're still sitting there the turkey talking about it.
Speaker 1: Days later. What an idiot. Yeah, I go snoop to tail.
Speaker 1: That's a big thing. Now it's a hunting public. Guy
Speaker 1: started that. You lay your turkey flat, and it's the
Speaker 1: long bird measurement. You you stretched the snoot out as
Speaker 1: far as possible and then you go from the tip
Speaker 1: of that all the way to the furthest tail feather.
Speaker 1: I think it should be this. It's just like it's
Speaker 1: stretched spur length. It's spur. It should be subspecies, but
Speaker 1: it's not actually a subspecies, but subspecies m hm spur
Speaker 1: length because rios have big freaking hooks, right, and so
Speaker 1: you gotta like break it down like that, and you
Speaker 1: draw a line like like you're measuring the tying on
Speaker 1: a deer. You draw a line down the leg as
Speaker 1: though the spur were not there, and then take a
Speaker 1: micrometer and Marry measure the spur and stop all this
Speaker 1: multiply and everything. But why aren't there non typical? Right?
Speaker 1: So shouldn't your beard your triple beard bird being non typical?
Speaker 1: And then you guys would do your thing where you
Speaker 1: do with I feel like net or gross um. Alright, lastly,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about before we get into the you
Speaker 1: know the main thing stolen tool technology, Indian arrowheads? Um,
Speaker 1: do you guys? You guys don't say that, do you No?
Speaker 1: Usually we say projectile points or you know, it depends
Speaker 1: on time period two. So when you are a little kid,
Speaker 1: did you say Indian arrowheads? Yeah? You know. We just
Speaker 1: got this book. I sent it to so Hank type spencer.
Speaker 1: We had a we had a great guest on, a
Speaker 1: guy named Taylor keen Um. He's a Native American activist,
Speaker 1: and we had no I want to want to call
Speaker 1: it a debate, but but we kind of debated the
Speaker 1: two perspectives of the perspective of someone who sees a
Speaker 1: Indian arrow headland on the ground and puts in his
Speaker 1: pocket and wants to go put in his desk drawer
Speaker 1: for his own enjoyment and personal you know, aggrandizement whatever
Speaker 1: h versus the perspective of it being like that's a
Speaker 1: thing of someone else that has value being there. Um,
Speaker 1: it could tell a story that needs to be left
Speaker 1: in place, and so leave it put out of respect
Speaker 1: for the people who made it and out of respect.
Speaker 1: You know. We had this whole debate someone on Yanni recently.
Speaker 1: Someone sent Yanni this book. I sent to Taylor Keen
Speaker 1: just has a joke a text message about the books.
Speaker 1: It was like, um, the idea, how do I identify
Speaker 1: and value Indian arrowheads? It's like it was like a
Speaker 1: trading it was like a trading book. Oh yeah about
Speaker 1: arrow heads? Like worth about you know, artifacts around the
Speaker 1: world are sold and all over the place. I think,
Speaker 1: after guns and drugs, antiquities is the third most profitable
Speaker 1: trade illegal trade. Yeah, okay, sounds way cooler than the
Speaker 1: other two. So so talk about what you're gonna talk about.
Speaker 1: We have an Instagram message for someone, says, dear Spencer.
Speaker 1: My name is Declan and I'm a freshman in high school.
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you had any ideas for a
Speaker 1: science for your project related to meet eaters four verticals.
Speaker 1: I was just looking for an idea that is out
Speaker 1: of the box and not basic, like which plant gross taller?
Speaker 1: So what do we got for him? That's a basic
Speaker 1: science idea too, Declin? Yes, what dec where we dealing with?
Speaker 1: Decline Harrington Declino Murphy says he's a minor. I don't
Speaker 1: know that. I should say probably don't know. I just
Speaker 1: want to get in origin just so, And you're bringing
Speaker 1: this up because of it? Well, this seems like a
Speaker 1: room that could I d ate some good science. Well
Speaker 1: I thought maybe you were thinking like a related to stone.
Speaker 1: Maybe that'd be good. Knives the poop knives be great.
Speaker 1: I think if he wants to sing, would be really good.
Speaker 1: But then debates already been settled. Science needs to be replicated.
Speaker 1: So well, yeah, just something around poop knives. There you
Speaker 1: go as way into this can, Well, let's come back
Speaker 1: to it. I gotta I gotta handful of ideas. Um,
Speaker 1: he could do it. Here's one. How about he does this?
Speaker 1: Where's he live? I don't know? Mhmm. Let's say he
Speaker 1: lives in a squirrel area. Go out and start weighing squirrels,
Speaker 1: measuring their tails, and then measure their skull and see
Speaker 1: if it's like inverse or not. See if it's like
Speaker 1: a good correlation. If he's like, hey, man, it turns
Speaker 1: out big as squirrels a big long tails at big
Speaker 1: gas skulls. So that's what you're barking up the right tree,
Speaker 1: so to speak. Uh. If he turns out that like
Speaker 1: huge squirrel, huge tail, little teeny skull, then we might
Speaker 1: know that that's not that'd be a good project for him.
Speaker 1: There you go, What were you thinking? I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of stealth around cooking for opportunities. Um. Like
Speaker 1: one one thing you hear all the time, especially with
Speaker 1: your Louisiana crawfish pond friends, is that like if you
Speaker 1: cook a crawfish and it comes out with a straight tail,
Speaker 1: it's a bad crawfish to win in the pot dead.
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's true. That's something you can
Speaker 1: easily test and solve a mystery for a lot of folks.
Speaker 1: I think there's also something with like um eggs that
Speaker 1: if you have a chicken egg and if it sinks,
Speaker 1: I think it's it's old, right, or if it floats
Speaker 1: it's it's fresh. I don't know the exact Yeah, but
Speaker 1: here's the thing, man, people already have done all that stuff,
Speaker 1: but they haven't done the squirrel head thing. Okay, I
Speaker 1: bet people have solved all the mysteries that this Science
Speaker 1: Fair freshman class goes after you anyway. Oh, so you're
Speaker 1: saying they're all gonna take a cheap shot, probably a
Speaker 1: lot of paper mache volcanoes. You got any idea scale?
Speaker 1: You know, back in my Science Fair days, there's literally
Speaker 1: like a book of Science Fair projects. Right, so, um,
Speaker 1: science doesn't need to be repeated. I would just from
Speaker 1: the bird hunting this year, I think it would be
Speaker 1: great to get some new definitive uh data on penetration
Speaker 1: on different um makeups shotgun shells, Like he's like all
Speaker 1: ounce or two and three quarter inch for this kid man?
Speaker 1: Why not shooting into what? Oh he can come up
Speaker 1: with anything, phone books? Oh, I see right, and just
Speaker 1: look at like penetration of bismuth versus tongue, stend versus lab.
Speaker 1: It's on parents day, he's on the parking lot. Boom,
Speaker 1: go ahead, step on up, take a shot. You know
Speaker 1: something that non hunters are easily fascinated by is trail cameras.
Speaker 1: If you're ever watching a show on like Animal Planet
Speaker 1: or like something on Discovery where they're looking for bigfoot
Speaker 1: and they're using a trail camera. They don't call it
Speaker 1: a trail camera. They're like, yeah, camera trap. Um, that's
Speaker 1: motion activated with night vision or whatever. You could just
Speaker 1: like this, dude, want an easy way out. You can
Speaker 1: just go through some trail cameras and be like I
Speaker 1: took a survey of the mammals on this piece of
Speaker 1: public land in central Hio or whatever where trail cameras
Speaker 1: are now illegal. Yeah, but trail cameras aren't illegal in
Speaker 1: any states for not hunting purposes. Yeah, but if you're
Speaker 1: hunting big foot, that's true. By way of introduction, by
Speaker 1: way of introduction to your work, do you mind addressing
Speaker 1: the poop knife quickly? No, definitely. Um. The reason why
Speaker 1: I went into archaeology and anthropology was because when I
Speaker 1: was a teenager, I heard on NPR the Diane Reem Show.
Speaker 1: Uh the boy, Yeah, that's she's a throat. She does
Speaker 1: there's a cancer. No, I don't think it is what
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I had a friend referred to her
Speaker 1: always as dying ream. That's just horrible, horrible out. I
Speaker 1: was listened man imagine that being that imagine being in
Speaker 1: this situation that she's that she's toughed out, like she
Speaker 1: has to be in this situation of being that you're
Speaker 1: like you are your voice. America recognizes your voice, that know,
Speaker 1: you are your voice of authority, and then you're stricken
Speaker 1: with the health issue that impacts your voice. It's like
Speaker 1: almost like Shakespearean. You can imagine how cool I was
Speaker 1: as a teenager listening to Diane Um. You know, yeah,
Speaker 1: did you tell all the guys on the school bus
Speaker 1: about there? Definitely and definitely it was you know. Um.
Speaker 1: But Way Davis who's an ethnobotanist and anthropologist, was on
Speaker 1: the show promoting his new book, and the book it
Speaker 1: was called Shadows in the Sun. Um, really great book
Speaker 1: about ego tourism. And uh. He told the story that
Speaker 1: one of his Inuit informants told him, Um that allegedly
Speaker 1: his grandfather in the nineteen fifties and his family was
Speaker 1: being moved off of their ancestral homeland in the Canadian Arctic,
Speaker 1: and he didn't want to go because it was his land.
Speaker 1: So his family was trying to convince him to come
Speaker 1: in the igloo and they would leave the next day
Speaker 1: for the new reservation or area to go, and he
Speaker 1: stood outside the igloo and protests and said I'm not
Speaker 1: coming in. And day turned to night and got pretty
Speaker 1: cold in the Arctic, and they took away all of
Speaker 1: his tools and all of his utilities to convince him,
Speaker 1: like come inside. What are you gonna do? You have
Speaker 1: got nothing, You can't survive out there. So aged. So
Speaker 1: the story goes, uh, this guy defecated into his own hands,
Speaker 1: and as his feces froze, he honed them into the
Speaker 1: shape of a knife, and he sharpened that knife with
Speaker 1: the spray of saliva, and he called over a dog
Speaker 1: and murdered it with this knife, butchered it, turned the
Speaker 1: dog's rib cage into a sled, used the dog's hide
Speaker 1: to harness another dog, and he sped off into the night.
Speaker 1: So I heard this story as a teenager, and I
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, that's amazing. I want to
Speaker 1: study anthropology and learn about technologies of of indigenous people.
Speaker 1: And well, little did I know, twenty years later I
Speaker 1: found the Kent State Experiment Archaeology Lab and where we
Speaker 1: can make any artifact from the last three million years
Speaker 1: of human technology, And it was a few years ago,
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, what's gonna be our next lab project?
Speaker 1: And I remember that story and I remember texting my
Speaker 1: co director Dr Michelle Beber, and I said, Hey, I've
Speaker 1: got a great idea for our next experiment. She's like,
Speaker 1: really what? And I'm like, do you remember that story
Speaker 1: that way Davis told about the Inuit? And I just
Speaker 1: left it at that, no no comment back, no comment back.
Speaker 1: Then I see the little text dots. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: is what you texted back. So we decided to test
Speaker 1: this idea that you can make a functional knife out
Speaker 1: of your own frozen feces, and uh, you guys have
Speaker 1: to use your own faces. So I went on an
Speaker 1: arctic diet for two weeks and uh, yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And uh and what
Speaker 1: was that high end protein in fat? Yeah protein, lots
Speaker 1: of salmon, uh, lots of other fish, fatty meats. Um.
Speaker 1: I do have a kid. So occasionally there was a
Speaker 1: couple missteps. It took had to finish the apple sauce
Speaker 1: once and his macaron cheese. But we actually in the paper,
Speaker 1: the published paper, we detailed the whole diet for thee
Speaker 1: and uh, then I started to produce the raw materials
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it was amazing. And it was
Speaker 1: a process because you find that the change and diet
Speaker 1: had a change change the b m oh yeah definitely. Um. Also,
Speaker 1: just like my overall movement, Yeah, well my whole attitude
Speaker 1: to like, I just became real depressed. And I think
Speaker 1: it was because you know, we've got this awesome lab
Speaker 1: at Kent State where we can shoot stuff and create
Speaker 1: any artifact out of metal or ceramic or stone whatever.
Speaker 1: But instead of being in my awesome lab, I'm at
Speaker 1: home pooping in a bag um, which I then would
Speaker 1: store in my freezer because we needed statistically valid sample
Speaker 1: sizes and so I produced a lot of raw materials,
Speaker 1: saving them all up um. And so uh we then
Speaker 1: got dry ice negative fifty degree centigrade, so really cold
Speaker 1: temperatures to make sure we're replicating the Arctic, and uh
Speaker 1: started making this stuff. And um, we got some pork
Speaker 1: and try to to butcher the pork with these knives.
Speaker 1: And we gave ourselves some advantages too, because I really
Speaker 1: want to be able to say, like that ship cut it.
Speaker 1: But so there was no hair on the pork, right
Speaker 1: because that could mess up your blade like the dog
Speaker 1: would have. Also, the pork was refrigerated, it wasn't warm
Speaker 1: like a freshly killed dog would be, you know, because
Speaker 1: I would melt your knife. Um, and I had a
Speaker 1: file in some cases to sharpen my my ship as
Speaker 1: much as I could. Did other people have to mess
Speaker 1: with it too? Well, we actually replicated our own experiment.
Speaker 1: Dr Beber repeated the entire experience with the Western diet
Speaker 1: where it was funny because she didn't know she was
Speaker 1: going to repeat it and she had just happened to
Speaker 1: have Wendy's twice that day. So in the published paper
Speaker 1: we had to detail, you know, the fact that in
Speaker 1: history so frosty, yeah, get that. You know, I think
Speaker 1: spaghetti too. But the point is when we went to
Speaker 1: cut this stuff, um, we could not cut anything. Just streaks, right,
Speaker 1: just a different source of streak, but this time on
Speaker 1: the meat, and uh, just the friction from trying to
Speaker 1: do the butchery melted the blade edge. So where do
Speaker 1: you think actually happened that the Well, so there's a
Speaker 1: couple of hypotheses, right, Um, what I actually think happened
Speaker 1: is and we this has been documented time and time
Speaker 1: again when you have anthropologists and ethnographers studying indigenous people.
Speaker 1: Sometimes indigenous folks just get sick of getting studied, and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, they sometimes will just make up stuff to
Speaker 1: entertain themselves or to just have a laugh. And yeah,
Speaker 1: and and that's been documented. Um and so it's possible
Speaker 1: that that person told Wade Davis just a story and
Speaker 1: sort of as went into the literature. Who knows, maybe
Speaker 1: it did happen, because the conditions of reality are different
Speaker 1: than the conditions in the lab and we've got to
Speaker 1: balance those two things. Um. So I get it. The
Speaker 1: evidence laboratory wise does not support the idea that you
Speaker 1: can make a knife out of your own frozen crap.
Speaker 1: And my favorite quote from that paper was it was
Speaker 1: like a brown crayon. It was like a brown cran um. Also, too,
Speaker 1: we we managed to slip in there that I regularly
Speaker 1: produced the materials for several weeks. There's a bunch of jokes.
Speaker 1: We want an Ignoble prize. Does that mean so the
Speaker 1: ignobles ignoble? Yeah, he doesn't get it now, so the
Speaker 1: Nobel prize and then ignobles like shame type in going
Speaker 1: to your computer, type in ignoble. But it's uh for
Speaker 1: science that first makes you laugh and then makes you think.
Speaker 1: So it's the funniest science. And so in we won
Speaker 1: the Ignoble for for that study. So it's cool because
Speaker 1: you know they're presented at Harvard and you get to
Speaker 1: go there. Did your university get maddy about it? So
Speaker 1: it's funny because we did all the ethics and stuff
Speaker 1: before we did the study, and uh, I remember sitting
Speaker 1: down with the director of research and they were like,
Speaker 1: you know, we're we're we got mixed feelings about the
Speaker 1: study that you want to do because you know, when
Speaker 1: you type into google Kent State, one of the first
Speaker 1: things that comes up is the May fourth shootings soldiers
Speaker 1: and Nixon. Yeah that's right, Yeah, play that ship bill,
Speaker 1: And so they were like, this study might change that,
Speaker 1: but it's a shame that it's going to be Kent
Speaker 1: State poop knife. Um. And so man, I can see like, dude,
Speaker 1: which you know that's a real that's a real question. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and well we we did it. So now how I
Speaker 1: founded the paper. I was researching for an article on
Speaker 1: Peter Fruakin, who claimed to have been stuck in a
Speaker 1: blizzard in the Arctic and he crawled underneath his sled
Speaker 1: to survive, and he was there for thirty hours and
Speaker 1: a blizzard was so bad that a wall of ice
Speaker 1: formed around him. And he said, in a moment of genius,
Speaker 1: he defecated, turned that ship into a chisel, and then
Speaker 1: broke his way out. That was the only way he
Speaker 1: could escape this little coffin that had formed around him.
Speaker 1: And the only information online available to help solve whether
Speaker 1: or not this could have really happened was your paper.
Speaker 1: Well and and so that's really interesting because in peer
Speaker 1: review and then afterward colleagues and stuff said, well, you know,
Speaker 1: Peter Freakan allegedly, you know, made his chisel, so your
Speaker 1: your knife paper has to be wrong. And we said, well,
Speaker 1: knives and chisels are different. And also to the substrates
Speaker 1: cut um meat versus snow that those are different variables.
Speaker 1: So the Peter Freakan story could be true and the
Speaker 1: Inuit story could be false. They're just this is variables
Speaker 1: and science. Now. I think something else to considered with
Speaker 1: Peter's story is that he was the only witness to it.
Speaker 1: He talked about, I think for the first time in
Speaker 1: his autobiography, The Vagrant and Viking Um, he had a
Speaker 1: personality that wanted to attract fame. He was like sort
Speaker 1: of a low key Hollywood socialite. He was in movies,
Speaker 1: he directed movies. He would go to Hollywood parties and
Speaker 1: throw actresses over his head. Um, like he really liked
Speaker 1: the attention. He would on the game show the sixty
Speaker 1: four thousand dollar Question. Um. So the question though, is like,
Speaker 1: if you've got all these options to make up how
Speaker 1: you broke out of an ice strip, right, why would
Speaker 1: you go with poop chisel? Because he maybe he had
Speaker 1: heard that story that you had heard, well, Peter Freak,
Speaker 1: and that her peppened. So this story happened in the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, it would be he would also in your
Speaker 1: list there, Spencer have to be wearing garments that lacked
Speaker 1: any sort of pockets or carrying capacity whatsoever. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's just not from the second I get dressed out
Speaker 1: of the shower, there's not a situation that I'm in
Speaker 1: where I don't have something in my pocket that would
Speaker 1: be better than a poop chisel. Yeah. So, based on
Speaker 1: your paper and Peter's personality, I don't think he did it.
Speaker 1: I'm not buying him. The high schooler needs a project.
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, yeah, needs to replicate that you
Speaker 1: replicated the other thing. He needs to replicate that if
Speaker 1: we knew where this dude lived, to be real helpful,
Speaker 1: it's like Florida where it's really hot Florida. That would
Speaker 1: be the worst poop knife of all time. So if
Speaker 1: you want to read the article that I had reference
Speaker 1: his paper, it's fact checker did explore Peter freaking save
Speaker 1: his life with a poop chisel. Can find that on
Speaker 1: the meteor dot com. I wrote it in one great plod. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the the decline name. I'm still thinking he's like Irish
Speaker 1: bunny camp be in the sun too long, probably in
Speaker 1: northern climates. Okay, trying to think out. There's a million
Speaker 1: ways to get into I'm trying to think of how
Speaker 1: best to get into it. Let's get into it like this.
Speaker 1: We was talking about the poop knife. Explain, um, why
Speaker 1: explain the question about Clovis and go as broad as
Speaker 1: you want, meaning um you can kind because there's the
Speaker 1: thing we've talked about extensively, is like the blitz Creeg hypothesis. Okay,
Speaker 1: so however you want to set it up, walk us
Speaker 1: into the paper. You recently did about did these boys
Speaker 1: really go out and make stone projectile points and take
Speaker 1: down how big or mammoths real big? You know, like
Speaker 1: two tons? Oh yeah, easily? Were they chiseling little stone
Speaker 1: points and knocking mammoths down? Alright? So why is that?
Speaker 1: Why is that a question that sort of goes beyond
Speaker 1: just simple curiosity. So mega fauna, right, thirty five genera
Speaker 1: of mega fauna when extinct at the end of the
Speaker 1: Plaza scene, so about ten thou years ago, um. And
Speaker 1: the big question is whether or not humans in North
Speaker 1: America had any role in those extinctions. And that speaks
Speaker 1: to two larger philosophical issues about you know, our nature
Speaker 1: and balanced with you know, ecosystems and all this sort
Speaker 1: of stuff. So people that use Clovis technology were some
Speaker 1: of the very first people on the continent and and
Speaker 1: we know Clovis spoke state to around thirteen thousand, six
Speaker 1: hundred years ago. Now, back in the fifties and the sixties,
Speaker 1: when archaeologists were really getting into the study of Clovis,
Speaker 1: they noticed that, wow, just as Clovis people seem to
Speaker 1: be traveling across the continent, all these mega fauna really
Speaker 1: seem to be dying, and so there must be a
Speaker 1: connection there. There's co variance, but not just around the continent,
Speaker 1: around the world. Man, well look at the islands that
Speaker 1: wound up having ma'am is still four thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: What happened four thousand years ago? Dude showed up Wrangle
Speaker 1: Wrangle island. That's true. Now, there's there's two issues with that.
Speaker 1: One is that island extinctions are different than continental extinctions.
Speaker 1: They have one dude show up. The other issues that
Speaker 1: paper just recently came out that showed that mammoths were
Speaker 1: surviving um in northern regions until very recently. So we
Speaker 1: did not cause their extinction. Yeah and so yeah, so,
Speaker 1: but it's a good point. Island. We we are terrible
Speaker 1: on islands, Like the wrinkle is not that big too.
Speaker 1: So like there's all these other factors that I'll let
Speaker 1: you go on. But you got a lot of inbreeding, uh, shrinking,
Speaker 1: malformed mammoths on that island to where it could be
Speaker 1: possible that the people who do show up and kill them,
Speaker 1: maybe they weren't so great, Maybe their timing was great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into it. Steve's like I
Speaker 1: descended from these people who killed mammoths, and I'm very
Speaker 1: proud of that. Well, there's an issue too as to
Speaker 1: whether or not we hunted mammoths versus hunted them to extinction.
Speaker 1: And so I don't think anyone doubts that on occasion
Speaker 1: people that use Clovis technology hunted mammoths. You know, there's
Speaker 1: there's archaeological evidence that on some occasions that seem to
Speaker 1: have occurred. Um, the big question is whether we hunted
Speaker 1: them so much with the Clovis fluted point, um, that
Speaker 1: we wiped them out. Yeah, because a guy like me
Speaker 1: grew up seeing a Clovis point and saying that was
Speaker 1: made for killing mammoth and clothes points are awesome. Um,
Speaker 1: I am grabbing one. You gotta describe. Clovis points are
Speaker 1: tend to twelve centimeters five or six inches. Um, they're
Speaker 1: beautifully flaked. It took me years to learn how to
Speaker 1: make an accurate Clovis point. We can pass them around.
Speaker 1: I brought huge so you wanted to kill a mammoth
Speaker 1: with it? Well, you can get really small ones too.
Speaker 1: There's some small ones over tiny maoth over here, little
Speaker 1: tiny ones. Um, that beautiful and uh, and they've got
Speaker 1: these channels. I want to hold one of the big ones. Yeah,
Speaker 1: here you see another good one. This one's half let's
Speaker 1: go one. No, that's cool. So they've got these channels
Speaker 1: that come from the base, and these channels are really
Speaker 1: difficult to master. Um. It took me a long time
Speaker 1: to learn how to flake these channels off the base
Speaker 1: because when you you hit the point from the base,
Speaker 1: it causes all sorts of bending and the point will break.
Speaker 1: And we know from studies of the archaeological record that
Speaker 1: when you flute these things they break one out of
Speaker 1: four times, one out of five times. Can you explain?
Speaker 1: So fluting? Are these channels, um, that you see at
Speaker 1: the at the base, and so they extend from that
Speaker 1: flat or concave base up and that is that concave
Speaker 1: or convex. I can never get those things. Concave is
Speaker 1: the one where it goes into the Yeah, you're holding
Speaker 1: the point and running along the length of the point.
Speaker 1: They got it all done, and then they thin the
Speaker 1: base by knocking a a channel, knocking your concave channel
Speaker 1: channel up each side of the each side, so you're
Speaker 1: risk breaking it twice. And that's where it's anchored on
Speaker 1: a shaft, right. Yeah, And So the big question is,
Speaker 1: you know, it takes years to learn how to make
Speaker 1: a clothes point, and even after you've mastered it, you
Speaker 1: risk breaking it one out of four, one out of
Speaker 1: five times. Why would close people, uh take those risks
Speaker 1: when you've got to feed your family and protect your
Speaker 1: your band from predators and all this sort of stuff.
Speaker 1: These are really important weapons for them. And actually, what
Speaker 1: we we discovered was that fluting technology is not for
Speaker 1: better hafting it or attaching it to a spear shaft.
Speaker 1: It's the world's first shock absorber. Do you think so? Well?
Speaker 1: We we showed so um, there's We've been following us
Speaker 1: a little bit. So what what we were able to
Speaker 1: find when we teamed up with a bunch of engineers
Speaker 1: and computer scientists was that when you flute both sides
Speaker 1: of a close point, the base becomes super thin and brittle,
Speaker 1: really thin and brittle. And I start to think to myself, man,
Speaker 1: it's so thin and brittle, like it would just crunch.
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, man, maybe that crunching
Speaker 1: is actually the advantage they were going for. So when
Speaker 1: a car crashes into something, the front end crumple's protecting
Speaker 1: the people inside So when you've got a Clovis point
Speaker 1: and I've got one attached to a for shaft, here
Speaker 1: is going seven year eighty miles at prey right, You're
Speaker 1: gonna get a lot of compression stress between that animal
Speaker 1: and the eight foot spear shaft behind it. Now, oftentimes
Speaker 1: the point will snap in half. But if you've got
Speaker 1: that little shock absorber where it crumples a little bit
Speaker 1: and absorbs some of that impact stress um it actually
Speaker 1: will crunch at the base and not break the point
Speaker 1: in half. So if you're Clovis people and you're traveling
Speaker 1: across the continent and exploring new lands that you've never
Speaker 1: been to before, it was left and you know, you
Speaker 1: know you don't want to faster you eat them well,
Speaker 1: you don't want to spend a lot of time remaking
Speaker 1: your weapons all the time. So by integrating these little
Speaker 1: shock absorbers, they figured out a way to basically extend
Speaker 1: the life of the tool that kept them alive. But
Speaker 1: speak about the hafting question, because that was long. It
Speaker 1: was like long held. Well you'd read where people would say, oh,
Speaker 1: it had a spiritual perhaps the spiritual significance, which means
Speaker 1: we don't know what it meant marchaeologist always say that
Speaker 1: when they don't know what's going on. And then you
Speaker 1: had people talk about the hafting. But the hafting thing
Speaker 1: is kind of legit because imagine that I'm trying to
Speaker 1: explain as listeners that like take your middle finger and
Speaker 1: your index finger and like put them together right, so
Speaker 1: they're running parallel together, um, and then you slip that
Speaker 1: point between them, and then that in that little groove
Speaker 1: gives your fingers somewhere to rest, and then you lash
Speaker 1: that down with string. I mean, it's plausible that that
Speaker 1: was Like, it's plausible right that that was helpful because
Speaker 1: if it was a rounded surface, your fingers wouldn't have
Speaker 1: anywhere to really grab. So that's one really interesting thing
Speaker 1: about the way archaeology has done today is that we
Speaker 1: study it in basically a way that you just described
Speaker 1: in terms of evolution. And usually when evolutionary UH features
Speaker 1: get adopted, it's because they've got multiple benefits. So shock
Speaker 1: absorption could be one of benefit, hafting could be an
Speaker 1: additional benefit, um and so, and there could be other
Speaker 1: benefits the fluting that we have not yet discovered yet.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot of work to do. I
Speaker 1: want to I want to get back to what we're on,
Speaker 1: but I want to talk. I want to talk about
Speaker 1: hafting for a second. If you think of your class
Speaker 1: like think of a boy scout badge and it has
Speaker 1: an Indian arrowhead on it, what do you call those
Speaker 1: little lobes at the bottom, like? Yeah? Uh? Like your
Speaker 1: classic arrowhead shape where you have a how do you
Speaker 1: describe that shape? Um? Sort of like a dovetail almost
Speaker 1: you have a little and there's grooves knocked out out
Speaker 1: we call those notches. Yeah. Do you does it seem
Speaker 1: as though that is helpful for hafting. It gives a
Speaker 1: place for the string to bite. It does give a
Speaker 1: straight a place for the string to bite. Um. One
Speaker 1: hypothesis that we're testing now though, is that the notches
Speaker 1: are not meant to keep the arrowhead or the projectile
Speaker 1: point on the shaft. What it actually does is it
Speaker 1: prevents the point from being pushed into the shaft upon impact,
Speaker 1: which would break the shaft. And to be honest, even
Speaker 1: though it takes years to learn how to make any
Speaker 1: sort of stone point um the shafts would probably be
Speaker 1: a lot more valuable to ancient people because it takes
Speaker 1: so much more time and effort to get it straight,
Speaker 1: find the right wood, carve it out, whereas once you
Speaker 1: know how to flint napp the close point, you can
Speaker 1: do it in twenty five or forty five minutes real quick. So,
Speaker 1: and they would make them with different stuff, right, is
Speaker 1: there something made out of like camel bone? In mammoth
Speaker 1: ivory we get four shafts and shafts made out of
Speaker 1: wood and all kinds of wood and bone and yeah, everything.
Speaker 1: So it depends on where you are in the world.
Speaker 1: So bam bamboo in some cases in East Asia, Do
Speaker 1: they have any kind of like ancient adhesive that they
Speaker 1: would use on them? Yeah, so pine pitch is a
Speaker 1: really good one. Um, hide glue, they would make glue
Speaker 1: from hide. Um. Now in our labs, is this all
Speaker 1: natural materials right here? No, In fact, it's mostly synthetic. Now.
Speaker 1: One reason why we try to uh not use animal
Speaker 1: products when we do experiments is because that the ethics
Speaker 1: in terms of doing experiments with animal products can just
Speaker 1: get a little dicey with oh yeah, but how are
Speaker 1: you supposed to do the work? So what we do
Speaker 1: we sometimes use animal products. I'm not saying we cut
Speaker 1: them out entirely. But there are some experiments where we
Speaker 1: don't need to use animal products, so we'll use like
Speaker 1: a wax twine or a plant based product. If that's
Speaker 1: not if that's not the part you're looking at, If
Speaker 1: not the yeah, exactly. And then also to um, you know,
Speaker 1: pine pitch can be really difficult to produce, and there
Speaker 1: can be variability from one experiment to the next. And
Speaker 1: if we want consistency, we've got to use like a
Speaker 1: thermoplastic that allows us to control that variable when we're
Speaker 1: focused on some other variable. Yeah, but if you're studying
Speaker 1: adhesives and exactly right, that's fair. I'll give you that one.
Speaker 1: That's fair. So what all kind of weapons? Were these
Speaker 1: points used on? Spears? Bows? At laddle? So the at laddle? Um, now,
Speaker 1: let me just preface that by saying, we have never
Speaker 1: found a clovis at laddle. Um, so are you into
Speaker 1: a ladle or at lattle? I say, at laddle? See, man, Okay,
Speaker 1: what do you say that? And then I got corrected
Speaker 1: so damn much. I started saying, yeah, I think at ladle. Dude.
Speaker 1: I had a dude tell him. He's like, listen, man,
Speaker 1: it's wrong. And I switched. I trusted them, I think,
Speaker 1: and then he was like, let me tell you about
Speaker 1: this poop night. So, yeah, you never found a we've
Speaker 1: never found clothes at laddle. So we assume that they
Speaker 1: used at laddles with their projectiles. Because these projectiles, you see,
Speaker 1: they're big. Um. If you try to put that on
Speaker 1: an arrow, Um, it might mess up a lot of
Speaker 1: the ballistics. And it'd be hard to have that onto
Speaker 1: an arrow shaft. And you don't see evidence of bows
Speaker 1: and arrows in this continent until like four or five
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, even later in some cases. Um. So
Speaker 1: the other issue too is we don't know that they
Speaker 1: were used with an at laddle. Could be hand like
Speaker 1: thrown spears or thrusting spears, handheld thrusting spears. Um. So
Speaker 1: it's just an assumption that they use the at laddle,
Speaker 1: but they may not be projectiles at all. Uh. I
Speaker 1: want to get a couple of things. We're gonna get
Speaker 1: back to this whole mystery whether they killed man. But
Speaker 1: I wanna I want to just explain, folks when I'm
Speaker 1: holding so we have to correct me where I go
Speaker 1: wrong here the very tip the tip of the spears
Speaker 1: to speak, we have the stone clobus point and the
Speaker 1: specimen is made out of that is actually an English shirt. Okay,
Speaker 1: So it's made out of churt um and it's hafted
Speaker 1: to with string. It's lashed to a fifteen inch Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's ash ash four shaft for shaft. So it's like
Speaker 1: the at the thickest parts about the thickness of sharpie
Speaker 1: and comes to a point um reminiscent of like a drumstick. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a good description. And then you didn't just fling
Speaker 1: this at something. It's like another part. So there's a
Speaker 1: what's the next part? Do you have one here? I
Speaker 1: couldn't fit the seven foot dart into my suitcase, so
Speaker 1: this sockets into a handle or what do you call
Speaker 1: that point? We call the We call it a dart,
Speaker 1: and so it would be like a seven foot very
Speaker 1: thin and flexible spear um and so, and in that way,
Speaker 1: what happens is you throw being higher sort of dart
Speaker 1: and foreshaft at the animal. The foresheft sticks, the dart
Speaker 1: falls out, and then you can retrieve your dart and
Speaker 1: put in another force. So this would just sock it
Speaker 1: into that like just held by friction, yes, into you
Speaker 1: know we're in South America. They still use socceted shooting
Speaker 1: out of arrows. They still use socketed points that fall away.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. And then they would tie for their bird points.
Speaker 1: They would leave a tied connection wrapped around because they
Speaker 1: want the arrow to fall away. And then it's the
Speaker 1: bird tries to fly away and he gets hung up
Speaker 1: in the bushes because he's dragging the shaft around on
Speaker 1: the end of a chunk of string. Yeah, that that's
Speaker 1: almost reminiscent. I read an ethnographic account of they tie
Speaker 1: like skin balloons when they're doing whale hunting. Um, so
Speaker 1: that when the projectile hits, you know, the underwater creature
Speaker 1: that you're going after, you can follow it with that balloon. Um.
Speaker 1: So it's not being dragged, but and it absorbs a
Speaker 1: little bit. It's like a little bit of chakrams orbs
Speaker 1: pulls on it. And then that would be if the
Speaker 1: add a laddle thing. Explain what that is. I'm holding
Speaker 1: it right now, but explain what the hard we're talking about.
Speaker 1: We saying is basically a stick with a little nub
Speaker 1: at the end of it, and that little nub very
Speaker 1: similar when you're playing fetched your dog and you got
Speaker 1: one of those tennis ball hookers. Yeah, like a tennis
Speaker 1: ball hooker with a little turkey spur sticking all the
Speaker 1: end of it. That's what it is. Sticks are the same, right. Um,
Speaker 1: it's a basically increases the leverage of your arm. It's
Speaker 1: a lever um. And when you've got just a stick
Speaker 1: with a little nub, you put your spear sort of
Speaker 1: right inserted into that nub, you can launch a dart,
Speaker 1: you know, seventy miles an hour. Are you pretty good
Speaker 1: with one? No? I suck? What's the best person? Okay,
Speaker 1: the best person you've seen with one? How good are
Speaker 1: they at? Just give me like some distance and group size.
Speaker 1: So well, there's a couple of ways to use in
Speaker 1: that attle, so you can do it for accuracy. And
Speaker 1: you know, I've seen and heard cases where people can
Speaker 1: hit a antelope from you know, thirty or forty yards,
Speaker 1: So that's pretty good. Um. The other thing though, that
Speaker 1: you can do with a dart in that laddle is
Speaker 1: if there's a large herd a hundred fifty two d away,
Speaker 1: you can just launch your dart into the herd and
Speaker 1: it will go that two hundred meters. Um, you can
Speaker 1: hawk on that far? Really, yeah, have done how far
Speaker 1: can you hawk one? Probably hundred or so. But people
Speaker 1: that are but just hail married it out there into
Speaker 1: a group of stuff just to see what happened. Yeah,
Speaker 1: definitely like that never cry Wolf movie. There's probably ever
Speaker 1: he takes his he takes a jackknife, ties into the
Speaker 1: end of a stick, hawks it into a herd carab
Speaker 1: he walks owners one laying there dead. Never not never
Speaker 1: cry Wolf great movie. Is there different size um like
Speaker 1: projectiles and stuff that you throw out of at little
Speaker 1: because obviously one you could throw farther than another, or
Speaker 1: are they all pretty similar? So you can throw any
Speaker 1: size stone projectile within that laddle, So it can be
Speaker 1: a really teeny tiny arrowhead or a really large Clovis point,
Speaker 1: because what happens is that the dart is so much
Speaker 1: more massive than the point that it sort of balances
Speaker 1: out where you can't sort of go is take a
Speaker 1: really large point and put it on a very thin
Speaker 1: arrow shaft, So there you need to have small arrow
Speaker 1: points um midas stone yep um. So go back to
Speaker 1: the different styles of like the different possible styles of
Speaker 1: hunting with one of these things. So there's like accuracy.
Speaker 1: You can go for you know, thirty forty yards try
Speaker 1: to get a lung shot or hard shot and people
Speaker 1: can do it. Um. Actually, if you type in at
Speaker 1: laddle hunting on the YouTube, there's lots of videos of
Speaker 1: people doing it. Um. But you can let me, let
Speaker 1: me throw one at you. That's kind of what I mean.
Speaker 1: Let's say it's big gass man with standing there no, no,
Speaker 1: no bear with me. Yeah, okay, like they're not accustomed
Speaker 1: to people. Let's just let's just go down the fantasy
Speaker 1: thing here. You're early people on a new continent. You're
Speaker 1: dealing with animals, have no idea what the hell you are. Uh.
Speaker 1: They're just like, I don't know, what's this little annoying
Speaker 1: thing walking up to me? And you get up five
Speaker 1: yards away and you're like, right, you're not really relying
Speaker 1: on accuracy. It's not a hail mary. You're just like,
Speaker 1: can I bury this thing in there enough to kill it? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you guys have messed around with that,
Speaker 1: like can you drive the point? Like nothing to do
Speaker 1: with it being far away, nothing to do with being
Speaker 1: really good at it, but just can you take it
Speaker 1: and flap? Like? Could I take it? Right through Phil
Speaker 1: Oh through Phil Oh Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's no problem.
Speaker 1: I pin him right to his chair. Yeah. Um. But
Speaker 1: when it comes to a mammoth uh the answers no,
Speaker 1: just flat out yea, just Helmett know that I'm going
Speaker 1: to pin him to his chair, or know that I'm
Speaker 1: going to get it in there enough to do something
Speaker 1: to him, You wouldn't be able to do anything to him, probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I can explain why, all right. I don't buy
Speaker 1: it for one second. Have heard the explanation even, all right,
Speaker 1: tell me why? All right? So ah, we did ballistics
Speaker 1: experiments in our lab at Kent State where instead of
Speaker 1: hucking it in a mammoth because we couldn't because well,
Speaker 1: yeah it's hard to find mammoths, right, you got to
Speaker 1: grow them. Yeah, they're trying, they're trying. It will be
Speaker 1: helpful with you guys. Yeah, you should order the first couple. Well,
Speaker 1: I do have a proposal for you when we're done
Speaker 1: talking about mammoth um. But so, what we've been doing
Speaker 1: in our ballistics lab is we end up shooting into
Speaker 1: blocks of clay, and we've done lots of engineering experiments
Speaker 1: looking at the how clay compares to to meet and flesh.
Speaker 1: And it's not just us. There's been knife makers and
Speaker 1: all sorts of other people who have looked to see
Speaker 1: how does clay compare? What's that other ship? They used
Speaker 1: the ballistic gel, ballistics gel. We've also done experiments of that.
Speaker 1: It's terrible ballistics. Gail. What about what they always do
Speaker 1: on like TV shows, like when they're testing out swords
Speaker 1: and ship like using using pigs. Um, Yeah, so, I
Speaker 1: mean you can use carcasses. Uh. The issue though then
Speaker 1: is how does that sort of compare? Yeah? Um, so
Speaker 1: we were shooting into blocks of clay. Now, these blocks
Speaker 1: of clay, while they compare to MEET, when they are
Speaker 1: different than meet, they're less resistant, so less resistant. They
Speaker 1: also don't understand what that means. So that means if
Speaker 1: you were to fire into meat into clay, the projectile
Speaker 1: going into clay usually would be similar to meet in
Speaker 1: terms of penetration depth, but on occasion it would be
Speaker 1: less so or no, no, it would be more I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: on occasion will penetrate clay better than it will penetrate
Speaker 1: clay better than meat. All right, so we're firing into
Speaker 1: a less resistant substrate, but are giving it the benefits
Speaker 1: we're giving it the benefit of the doubt. And also
Speaker 1: our clay, even though it compares to meat, doesn't have
Speaker 1: hair and it doesn't have hide. And so when you
Speaker 1: look at mammoths, mammoths can have ten to twelve centimeters
Speaker 1: of hair that would slow down your projectile, and their
Speaker 1: hides can be you know, two or three centimeters thick um.
Speaker 1: So that's on top of any meat that you'd have
Speaker 1: to get through, right, and we're firing with our spot
Speaker 1: hog hooter shooter from a meter away into these blocks
Speaker 1: of clay, so kind of like what you described, just
Speaker 1: going up and hawking it into the animal. There's no wind,
Speaker 1: there's no rain um that could sort of cause the
Speaker 1: projectile to skew and hit it at an angle, which
Speaker 1: would reduce penetration. More so, we're given these Clovis points
Speaker 1: that we're firing into the clay the best possible chance
Speaker 1: to penetrate as deep as they can. On average, Clovis
Speaker 1: points penetrate the clay blocks eighteen centimeters, so that much
Speaker 1: that is that is not deep at all. And when
Speaker 1: we compare what eighteen centimeters is not only to mammoths
Speaker 1: but to modern elephants, you are not reaching lungs, you're
Speaker 1: not reaching the heart, you're not reaching the liver. And
Speaker 1: this also assumes that you're making it between that cage
Speaker 1: of ribs, which for mammoths is just like a fortress. Um.
Speaker 1: So are you familiar with the claim that at the
Speaker 1: Black Water draw site they found a mammoth skull with
Speaker 1: a Clovis point in its eye socket? I am not
Speaker 1: aware of that. Time. People think it's like someone put
Speaker 1: it there because I thought would be funny. What some
Speaker 1: people think it's legit? Is it funny? Well, not funny.
Speaker 1: I mean that that that that there was like, okay,
Speaker 1: let me put it a different way. Some people think
Speaker 1: that I guess there's some people that were made that claim,
Speaker 1: and other people pointed out that there's probably some human,
Speaker 1: some modern human manipulation of the stuff where some huckster.
Speaker 1: Right there are hucksters and it was like coming to
Speaker 1: my special my you know what I mean, And you like,
Speaker 1: wouldn't be cool if you know I stuck it in
Speaker 1: there and showed tourists or it was like legitimately in there,
Speaker 1: and I think I think it was. It was described
Speaker 1: as being like evidence of and then later was widely
Speaker 1: discredited as being no one knows how that thing got
Speaker 1: net head, but there's no like, no one was ever
Speaker 1: able to analyze it. It might just be like a
Speaker 1: guy was screwing around. I'm not familiar with that claim,
Speaker 1: but which makes me think it's probably not true. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's probably not true. That's all right. But uh so,
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to the fact that we
Speaker 1: also know that Clovis points from analysis called microware, which
Speaker 1: is where you can take a scanning electron microscope and
Speaker 1: we look at the polishes and striations that are left
Speaker 1: on the artifacts themselves to see how they were used.
Speaker 1: We know Clovis points were used as knives, so they
Speaker 1: weren't just projectile weapons. They were multi use tools for
Speaker 1: processing animals as well. So when we find closed points
Speaker 1: in association with mammoth skeletons, and that's very rare, it's
Speaker 1: only been done, you know, fourteen times in the history
Speaker 1: of archaeology. Can you walk me through a couple of
Speaker 1: the notable ones, Yeah, like, what like what was the relationship? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so we'll find, Um, there's eight Clovis points found in
Speaker 1: the Naco mammoth um down in the southwest. Um, there's
Speaker 1: only three Clovis points kind of around the area of
Speaker 1: the Colby mammoth in Wyoming. Um, let's see some of
Speaker 1: the other ones and neither not like the fulsome point
Speaker 1: laying in the ribs like thes like just in association,
Speaker 1: in association with but not like wedged into something. And
Speaker 1: we've never found a Clovis point tip in the bone
Speaker 1: of a mammoth, whereas we found fulsome uh points embedded
Speaker 1: in bison bone before and all other types of stuff.
Speaker 1: So no, just to just to make sure everybody's clear,
Speaker 1: no one has ever recovered a mammoth bone they had
Speaker 1: like healed around or had like when it was fresh
Speaker 1: bone been impaled by struck by embedded in That is correct,
Speaker 1: never never. So these Clovis points that we find in
Speaker 1: association with mammoths, ah, could very plausibly be just people
Speaker 1: scavenging already dead ones. Have you found humans with Clovis
Speaker 1: points in the bones? No, because, um, we only have
Speaker 1: one Clovis burial that's ever been found and it's right
Speaker 1: near here. Yeah, and zick One, that's right. I mean,
Speaker 1: like I forgot I was in Montana. You could you
Speaker 1: could be at the anzick One site and uh it's
Speaker 1: a great name for a boy. I think it sounds
Speaker 1: like a Steven Spielberg movie and Zick one. But he
Speaker 1: was a little boy buried uh over by Wilson with
Speaker 1: a bunch of Clovis points. Yeah, you just picture our
Speaker 1: CUTEI looked all wrapped up in those mammothides that his
Speaker 1: daddy killed. Right. Can we talk about the blitz Creek
Speaker 1: hypothesis real quick? Yeah? Right? And like so where that
Speaker 1: name comes from? Right, It's like attacking very very fast, uh,
Speaker 1: overwhelming larger odds by moving really fast, faster than your
Speaker 1: opponents are gonna roll the whole place up in a
Speaker 1: thousand years? Um, how did people get to a new continent, Stephen?
Speaker 1: Did they get there really really fast? Did they get
Speaker 1: to new places really fast? In the book Sapiens, he
Speaker 1: talks about if I also want to say, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: over here real quick? Well, no, okay, go ahead, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump example from Sapiens, I think he says
Speaker 1: in Sapiens, the Oregon company spot Hog makes you know, like, uh,
Speaker 1: fancy tough archery sites is there is there big deal?
Speaker 1: But they came out with that hooter shooter forever ago
Speaker 1: and it's it's a highly technical piece of equipment designed
Speaker 1: around um doing what every archery hunter, probably for thousands
Speaker 1: of years has always wanted to do, which is know
Speaker 1: that the bow is screwing up and it's not you, right, um.
Speaker 1: And I've known those folks at spot Hog for a
Speaker 1: really long time. Everybody's super nice, great people. But had
Speaker 1: they lead with the fact they had a hooter shooter
Speaker 1: at can't State and projectile ab, it would have been, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd be lead with that. For this selling stuff is cool,
Speaker 1: but that's way cool. I want to first hardly recommend
Speaker 1: the book Sapiens. It's got some sloppy mistakes in it,
Speaker 1: like what, um, they misspelled sapiens like a no, no,
Speaker 1: Just like he'll like make some examples like, for instance,
Speaker 1: if a if a blank animal were to like do
Speaker 1: this to a blank animal and be like animals that
Speaker 1: don't coexist on the same continent, just like kind of
Speaker 1: like a little lazy comparisons that they're annoying if you
Speaker 1: catch them. But I mean it's you know, it's a
Speaker 1: highly regarded book. He gets into like the human diaspora
Speaker 1: out of Africa seventy years ago and for a long
Speaker 1: time he talks about, which is kind of cool, Like
Speaker 1: if you go to an area and you'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's some mule deer. Oh there's some white tailed deer
Speaker 1: that UM at various times around the world, you have
Speaker 1: different humans coexisting to be like, oh there's one kind
Speaker 1: of them. Oh, there's not a kind of them. They
Speaker 1: seem really similar with they're kind of a little bit different, right, UM.
Speaker 1: But he focuses in on Homo sapiens and he says,
Speaker 1: if a forager band split once every forty years. Uh.
Speaker 1: Prior to this, he gets into like what probably hunter
Speaker 1: other bands? How big as a hunter gatherer band, Like,
Speaker 1: just based on various pieces of evidence, is like like
Speaker 1: roughly how many people lived in these hunter gatherer bands
Speaker 1: that roamed around and then how did they like, what
Speaker 1: were their group interactions and group dynamics and it's all
Speaker 1: a huge question mark. But he just kind of offers
Speaker 1: some like perspectives on how to understand this. UM there's
Speaker 1: kind of this funny thing that happens to uh, and
Speaker 1: he looks at all these examples from from UM human societies.
Speaker 1: A hundred people becomes a very different if you imagine
Speaker 1: a group of people as like an organism, say, uh,
Speaker 1: the organism changes dramatically at a hundred people, and he
Speaker 1: gets into a lot of stuff even at like organizations,
Speaker 1: professional organizations, um military units, all these kinds of examples,
Speaker 1: Like like sub one d people, every individual is able
Speaker 1: to know. Like at sub one d people, every individual
Speaker 1: is able to know pretty much the history of everyone else.
Speaker 1: You can know their name, You'll be able to put
Speaker 1: together their family tree, you like remember grievances and gripes.
Speaker 1: You get over a hundred peop when you start to
Speaker 1: enter into sort of like a different territory, And it
Speaker 1: seems that a lot of these early groups he like,
Speaker 1: he has this spirited argument that probably around a hundred
Speaker 1: people or less, probably not more would survive as these
Speaker 1: roaming bands of hunter gatherers that just stayed on the
Speaker 1: move all the time, Which leads to this quote which
Speaker 1: I highlighted. If a forager band split once every forty years,
Speaker 1: and it's splinter group migrated to a new territory sixty
Speaker 1: miles to the east, the distance from East Africa to
Speaker 1: China would have been covered in about ten thousand years.
Speaker 1: So that's slow, but it's like it depends on your perspective.
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's slow but fast, I mean East
Speaker 1: Africa to China, just as like people filling up the
Speaker 1: landscape without a thought, without being propelled by the idea
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to fill up the landscape. Uh. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously you're familiar with this, which is why I asked
Speaker 1: the question. Right. It's like, in order for there to
Speaker 1: be new there, there brings to mind like this this
Speaker 1: picture of like I fell out of a balloon and
Speaker 1: landed in this landscape where nothing had seen me before,
Speaker 1: my kind before. Whereas that sixty miles um certainly around here,
Speaker 1: you know, we have a bunch of snow on the
Speaker 1: ground right here. You move sixty miles in three different directions,
Speaker 1: you're gonna be there's some stuff that looks green around
Speaker 1: here already. Uh. And it's snow free, right. You can
Speaker 1: really change your landscape and and what's around and abundant there.
Speaker 1: But we know that all these animals have these big,
Speaker 1: overlapping territories that migration roots. They do a lot of
Speaker 1: moving to. So this idea of there being like a
Speaker 1: new encounter constantly unannounced, this sort of a constantly announced
Speaker 1: present surprise. We're humans, right, is very hard for me,
Speaker 1: Like the knowledge of humans may well have just travels
Speaker 1: sort of at the outer edge of humans, right right,
Speaker 1: And then I think, like the hunted animals are like
Speaker 1: a man, those slow bipedal things, or they we move
Speaker 1: a little bit. A few days later they that's a
Speaker 1: great point, man, that it wasn't like some dude. It
Speaker 1: is like I'm gonna sneak over a thousand miles past
Speaker 1: where anybody's ever been and get past any awareness of
Speaker 1: who I am. It's just it's hard. But you read
Speaker 1: it and you're like and then you're like, wait, do
Speaker 1: you think you can publish that in the paper called
Speaker 1: the Callahan principle? Yeah, well it's I think what you're
Speaker 1: getting at right with litz Creek is it assumes animals
Speaker 1: are also real dumb, and that animals don't learn. And
Speaker 1: you know, you might get away with walking up to
Speaker 1: a species that's never seen you before once, but his
Speaker 1: buddies are watching and they're gonna see what you did, um,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna learn. And so this idea that just
Speaker 1: because we were new, we could just walk up and
Speaker 1: sort of club animals on the head and take them out.
Speaker 1: Blitz Creek style doesn't make any sense or even the
Speaker 1: at laddle when you you compare it to like close
Speaker 1: range hunting tactics that we have now, right, um, especially
Speaker 1: to huck something two. That's a big body movement, right,
Speaker 1: I imagine there's a couple of big steps in there.
Speaker 1: You're really arc in your arm. You're a happy Gilmore style,
Speaker 1: yeah Gilmore a stylary right, versus like you're not, um,
Speaker 1: crouched down semi sneak, drawing your bow back, locking it in.
Speaker 1: You know, there's just like some some big movements, it's
Speaker 1: a it's a more probably less uh a little more
Speaker 1: brutal versus uh. You know. Another thing I read, it's
Speaker 1: like another ant ye Blitz Creek hypothesis. Thing I've read
Speaker 1: is that, um, there's no remains of I don't think
Speaker 1: there's even a butcher site of like a giant ground slot.
Speaker 1: Every time you're reading about the place has seen extinctions,
Speaker 1: they always love to talk about the giant ground slot
Speaker 1: because what a crazy aest animal, right, how are they
Speaker 1: like oh four ft taller? You know, people love to
Speaker 1: bring up like mammoths and right, It's like when a
Speaker 1: when a writer, when some journalists is going to do
Speaker 1: a list of animals, and they know they're gonna start
Speaker 1: with mammoth. The second one is probably the giant ground
Speaker 1: slot nine ft long, five pounds. Yeah, like, man, I'm
Speaker 1: a stand uh giant ground sloss. Every journalist does it.
Speaker 1: I was reading that there's no butcher site, not only
Speaker 1: no like, not only no bone stone tools stuck in
Speaker 1: his bone, not even a butcher site from a giant
Speaker 1: ground SLOs. So the only animals that we've got clovis
Speaker 1: artifacts in association with our mammos masodon one camel, one camel,
Speaker 1: one camel, one horse, and I believe that's it. But
Speaker 1: we have human bones associated with with more animals. But
Speaker 1: it could be like overlaps for like burial sites, right,
Speaker 1: because I know that we have like some cave bears
Speaker 1: and some human skulls in close proximity. Not in North America,
Speaker 1: South America. I've never heard of that. I think it
Speaker 1: was two years ago there or something that came out
Speaker 1: that was pretty underwater cave. Oh so in Mexico. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there is a human skull, yes, and so maybe there
Speaker 1: was over the head yeah, um so yeah when that
Speaker 1: was yeah, I believe that was in Mexico, but it
Speaker 1: was a very confused stratigraphy, like that thing had been
Speaker 1: collected shipped for a long time. Yeah, imagine slimming down
Speaker 1: there and there's a lay school there. But that's an
Speaker 1: insane I mean, we're basing a lot off of very
Speaker 1: few sites that we know for sure humans actually carved
Speaker 1: on just a handful of creators. If we were regularly
Speaker 1: hunting these mega mammals, you know, hundreds hundreds of millions
Speaker 1: of these specimens, right, we'd be finding Clovis points in
Speaker 1: association with these things all over the place. But they're
Speaker 1: only but you're not finding clothes like Okay, look at this.
Speaker 1: If you're going by that piece of evidence, then we'd
Speaker 1: have to say there weren't any Clovis hunters because we've
Speaker 1: only found one. Well, you have the Anzick one boy,
Speaker 1: So if you're gonna go by what you found, then
Speaker 1: we have to say that there weren't any people think
Speaker 1: we haven't found them, Well, but we've got their artifacts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but we've got stone. Last stone lasts a long time.
Speaker 1: No mega mammal bones, do I see what you're saying,
Speaker 1: But you see what I'm saying. And zigone and zig one,
Speaker 1: you could easily make the jump and say, oh, these
Speaker 1: are ceremonial points that weren't actually used for anything. The
Speaker 1: other issue too with Clovis burials is it is a
Speaker 1: mystery as to why we only have one. Like, we
Speaker 1: don't like, where are these Clovis bones, But maybe they
Speaker 1: buried them on cin They didn't bury, but they did,
Speaker 1: like the planes tribes and put them on scaffold. That's possible.
Speaker 1: So there's something behavioral with Clovis that we just don't
Speaker 1: know what's going on. Why Because we have hundreds of
Speaker 1: Neanderthal skeletons from three hundred thousand to fifty thousand years ago,
Speaker 1: Clovis is only thirteen thousand years ago, and we only
Speaker 1: have one and it's an infant. So what Clovised people
Speaker 1: are doing with their burials or with their you know,
Speaker 1: deceased relatives, we have no idea. That's interesting man, Like
Speaker 1: they weren't intering them in caves. No, And what's really
Speaker 1: strange about Clovis too is that they do not seem
Speaker 1: to utilize rock shelters or caves at all. Every other
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer group around the world passed and present, going
Speaker 1: back two million years to you know, modern hunter gatherers
Speaker 1: use caves and rock shelters. There are no Clovis rock
Speaker 1: shelter sites or cave sites. What's the speculation like hide shelters,
Speaker 1: big spiders. I don't know. Maybe it could be some
Speaker 1: sort of taboo, some cultural thing again ritual maybe rituals
Speaker 1: because like the people, uh, the Europeans that used the
Speaker 1: similar tech tool technology and associated with a similar suite
Speaker 1: of animals, they even call them like caveman. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm always correcting my kids because they want to call
Speaker 1: like they know about me being really interested in ice
Speaker 1: h hunters, and they're always calling them caveman. And I'm like,
Speaker 1: on the contrary, anthropologists think that they weren't real big
Speaker 1: into caves. They didn't hang out in caves. No, they
Speaker 1: did in Europe, and after what I'm saying here here,
Speaker 1: they didn't exact I've only just read that that they
Speaker 1: didn't like going and not that they didn't like We
Speaker 1: don't know what they thought of them, but that you
Speaker 1: don't find their bones and tools and stuff in rock
Speaker 1: rock led shelters. Not place the scene now, once we
Speaker 1: get into the hole of the the scene after ten tho
Speaker 1: years ago, we see people in North America using caves
Speaker 1: and rock shelters all the time. So it's just for
Speaker 1: whatever reason that blip of Clovis for about five to
Speaker 1: six hundred to seven hundred years, caves are just sort
Speaker 1: of off the real estate market. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: Uh you said that someone could make one of them. Well,
Speaker 1: let me ask that question first. So you think of
Speaker 1: what I'm at, what I should be holding right now
Speaker 1: as a knife, Yes, that's just it. So they could
Speaker 1: be used for hunting weaponry and projectile technology as well,
Speaker 1: But for smaller things like deer elk um, they just
Speaker 1: don't They wouldn't penetrate deep enough to do anything to mammoth.
Speaker 1: So I think they could be used as hunting weapons.
Speaker 1: And look, it's possible that Clovis folks did occasionally take
Speaker 1: down to mammoth. I'm not saying they never hunted mammoth ever,
Speaker 1: But the question is did they hunt these things to extinction?
Speaker 1: And is the Clovis point some sort of stone age
Speaker 1: bazooka that allowed them to do that with ease? And
Speaker 1: and the answer is no. The of this point just
Speaker 1: isn't this a K forty seven where you could just
Speaker 1: mote on mammoths. And but that's the impression that archaeologist
Speaker 1: has published for for decades. If they couldn't kill them
Speaker 1: with Clovis points, do they have any other creative solutions
Speaker 1: to kill the mammoth? Well, so this is it. This
Speaker 1: is where the faults of the archaeological record really come
Speaker 1: into play. Like maybe they use some sort of poison
Speaker 1: that has not preserved on Clovis points you know today,
Speaker 1: So maybe they use some sort of poison to takedown
Speaker 1: mammoths drive from what I don't know any well. And
Speaker 1: the issue too with poison is because Clovised people were
Speaker 1: relatively new to the landscape, they would have needed to
Speaker 1: learn which plants to to utilize to make those poisons
Speaker 1: and what quantities. So I find the idea that they
Speaker 1: use poison um not very convincing. But that's that's possible,
Speaker 1: and that's something we can't falsify at this point. What
Speaker 1: about just like driving them off cliffs and then going
Speaker 1: to the bottom of that cliff and then dispatching them
Speaker 1: with like the Clovis points. So we do have bison
Speaker 1: jumps in later time periods um where people would drive
Speaker 1: bison off the cliffs and then you know, they butcher
Speaker 1: the top layer and then there's like two or three
Speaker 1: bison deep where they just couldn't get to them. Because yeah, um,
Speaker 1: we've never found a mammoth jump um, and I feel
Speaker 1: like we'd find that if that existed at this point. Um.
Speaker 1: So there's all those great dioramas, aren't there, dioramas of
Speaker 1: people with like sticks pushing and we were kids a
Speaker 1: book we used to there's a great picture in one
Speaker 1: of our books, and they had gotten one in a
Speaker 1: pit trap and we're hurling giant rocks down on it.
Speaker 1: Well the first skirts. So that's a possibility, right, you
Speaker 1: drive a mammoth into an arroyo and and it gets
Speaker 1: stuck like or maybe it's already sick or dying so
Speaker 1: close people or whatever you had. But like this idea
Speaker 1: that Clovis folks, that is what they did and that's
Speaker 1: who they were, they were mammoth hunters, just isn't supported. Um,
Speaker 1: So that would just be like saying, you know, well,
Speaker 1: actually I can't come up with an analogy, so you
Speaker 1: can cut this part. Let me let me tell you
Speaker 1: about have you have you ever heard of the book
Speaker 1: The Oregon Trail. I played the dos game in the nineties.
Speaker 1: There's a historian. There's a guy that wrote at the
Speaker 1: time the definitive History of the French and Indian War.
Speaker 1: And his name was Francis Parkman, and he had a
Speaker 1: long problem. I can't hemera what it was. And his
Speaker 1: doctor said, you needed you know what they used to
Speaker 1: send everybody. What the hell do you have when they
Speaker 1: send you? Right? Was consumption? Was TV? Right? Yeah, They're like,
Speaker 1: you gotta go out to the dry climates, you know,
Speaker 1: to survive. It was like a big thing. Uh. A
Speaker 1: woman would cop blood into a handkerchief. Yeah. The doctor
Speaker 1: like town exactly right, exactly. Uh. So this fellow Francis Parkman,
Speaker 1: he went out in eighteen forty six and wound up
Speaker 1: traveling with the Iguala Sioux and likely was in Crazy
Speaker 1: Horses camp when Crazy Horse would have been about thirteen
Speaker 1: years old. They go into the Black Hills to collect
Speaker 1: He goes with the Iguala Sou into the Black Hills
Speaker 1: to collect tep poles and describes there how one day
Speaker 1: they get on a ledge up above a herd of
Speaker 1: big horns and start rolling trundling rocks down through the
Speaker 1: herd and kill something that's amazing, and he explains it
Speaker 1: very explicitly, and it's like, um, that doesn't get that's
Speaker 1: preserved because he saw it. And this is the thing
Speaker 1: we've talked about when we talk about these things like
Speaker 1: archaeological stings, and were they like were they ten years later?
Speaker 1: Do you remember that weird ass time when we got
Speaker 1: on that hill and freakishly there's a hundred big horns
Speaker 1: and frequently there's like these big, huge rocks and they
Speaker 1: were like and how weird that was? Right? Right, despite
Speaker 1: having all these other technologies, right, instead of using the
Speaker 1: guns that we had, instead of using the spears, instead
Speaker 1: of using the bows. Yeah, or was it like you
Speaker 1: know what we like to do, come May, we get
Speaker 1: on a big cliff every year and trundull big horns,
Speaker 1: death of big rocks, right, because there's just there's like
Speaker 1: a certain amount of just like freaking ship happen. Yeah, definitely,
Speaker 1: you know. And so the fact that like you come
Speaker 1: across the man was stuck in the mud and some
Speaker 1: guy manages the you know, taken an hour or so
Speaker 1: of his time, Jeff, some holes into over and over
Speaker 1: like jab it's eye out till it dies with a
Speaker 1: Clovis points. I don't know sure, yeah, no cloths, people
Speaker 1: could have occasionally taken one out. Um, but you bring
Speaker 1: up like these historic accounts and we can get into
Speaker 1: the ethnographic record of elephant hunting, and that's where we
Speaker 1: can start to look at well, okay, let's look at
Speaker 1: folks who have metal spears. Right, there are documented cases
Speaker 1: of the mabooty in Africa of spear hunting elephants are
Speaker 1: trying to spear hunt elephants and they're metal spears bend
Speaker 1: and bounce off Bisa. Hunters with muzzle loaders only have
Speaker 1: a twenty percent success rate of of taking out mammoths. Yeah, elephants, elephants,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, And so like this idea that with modern
Speaker 1: metals and and even firearms, it's hard to to take
Speaker 1: out an elephant, which is smaller than a mammoth, the idea,
Speaker 1: and you don't have that hair and you don't have
Speaker 1: yeah exactly, and hair can really slow down projectiles dirty
Speaker 1: oh yeah, sam, mud filled hair. Never tried to skin
Speaker 1: of critter with a knife, tried to jab a man
Speaker 1: with under those conditions, So it's uh, it would have
Speaker 1: been a challenge. And so this idea that they just
Speaker 1: did it all the time, I just isn't supported. So
Speaker 1: you don't know where I caught you in a contradiction.
Speaker 1: It could correct your career, you know, it's I made
Speaker 1: knives out of my own frozen poop. So I don't
Speaker 1: know if i'd call it a career. Earlier, you we
Speaker 1: we're talking about fluting. Yeah, and you pointed out that
Speaker 1: it could act as a shock absorber. But but there
Speaker 1: was a knife. No, No, it was a multi functional
Speaker 1: tool that could also be used to say, it could
Speaker 1: be you know, used for deer, moose or or elker
Speaker 1: or whatever. So yeah, um, a colleague, try to do
Speaker 1: that to me too, You try to ruin your career,
Speaker 1: same thing, you know, the exact Yeah, but now that
Speaker 1: I think about it, you already said that it probably
Speaker 1: was and they might used it for fighting each other
Speaker 1: or self defense. Um. This is the other thing about
Speaker 1: Clovis points. They're so big, um that I am starting
Speaker 1: to suspect that they were probably used primarily on handheld spears. Um,
Speaker 1: because think about it, right, you are new to this continent.
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of critters that want to eat you,
Speaker 1: short faced bear, sabertooth tigers, Your and your population densities
Speaker 1: are really low because you're peopling this new continent. You
Speaker 1: want to do everything you can to survive. When you're
Speaker 1: out in the wild, you need some form of self defense.
Speaker 1: Um and so more and more I'm starting to think
Speaker 1: to my mind that maybe Clovis points would have served
Speaker 1: that purpose as well, and it had a stick and
Speaker 1: it was just like a d all. Yeah, again, I
Speaker 1: want to say new to this continent by like, what's
Speaker 1: your context? Right? Are you fifth generation new to this continent? Right? Like? What? Well,
Speaker 1: So this gets into the whole issue of when North
Speaker 1: America's was peopled. Right, So, there are pre Clovis people's
Speaker 1: in North America. Now there they seem to be limited
Speaker 1: to the West coast, Pacific, Northwest, and the southwest. There
Speaker 1: are areas of North America where it looks like people
Speaker 1: who use Clovis technology were first, So that would be
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes, New England, probably the southeast parts. Um.
Speaker 1: So Clovis was first in some regions, but they had
Speaker 1: predecessors in other regions because the fluted point was invented here.
Speaker 1: We don't find the Clovis fluted point anywhere else in
Speaker 1: Asia or anything like that. So if it was invented
Speaker 1: in North America. There had to have been pre Clovised
Speaker 1: people here to invent it. Yeah. I've heard people in
Speaker 1: trying to describe the Clovis culturalist sort of like it
Speaker 1: was the first widespread American born. Yeah, that's a good description.
Speaker 1: How long did the Clovis culture last? Only about anywhere
Speaker 1: from five hundred to probably eight hundred years. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: did not last long. Now the reason why? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but how I mean it a long? Like think about
Speaker 1: how long has America been here? Well, that's true, but
Speaker 1: when you mean they're like five Americas, that's true, but
Speaker 1: I mean America the country. Yeah, you're like, oh, that's
Speaker 1: not very long, and they're like, well that is pretty long. Well,
Speaker 1: but my math stone technology good, I'm saying it's a
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, but Clovis points compared to something like this,
Speaker 1: which is so this is the ashlet in hand ax
Speaker 1: made by Homorectus. So it is a large tear drop
Speaker 1: shaped object that is much larger than my face. I
Speaker 1: don't know what else to say. Gorgeous, man, But this
Speaker 1: lasted for one point five million years, this particular, so
Speaker 1: you'll find them in the human record for that long. Yeah. Really,
Speaker 1: long time. So it's an idea that stuck. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you like the idea of Clovis points last for eight
Speaker 1: hundred years is not long at all? One point five
Speaker 1: million years. This thing, Homorectus was just using this over
Speaker 1: and over again to chop up tubers and disarticulate skeletons.
Speaker 1: So see when you came in, this is a good
Speaker 1: transition into like how stuff was produced. Um, I a
Speaker 1: real quick to you. Just as we pass this around,
Speaker 1: obsidian does get sharp to the molecule, So just when
Speaker 1: you're passing it around, don't like touch the edge. Yeah,
Speaker 1: woke me through based on what we found. What we found, Like,
Speaker 1: let's say on this continent, A your hunter gatherer and
Speaker 1: you use stone tools. So you use stone, spear points,
Speaker 1: stone arrow points, stone knives, right, all your hardships made
Speaker 1: out of stone. Um, leave out trade networks and just
Speaker 1: walk me through sort of like the process of one
Speaker 1: minute you have nothing and then you have these like
Speaker 1: finally wrought pieces. So alright, so this is a I'm
Speaker 1: holding a raw piece of shirt that I just almost
Speaker 1: destroyed your microphone with. Um. Now this is called George
Speaker 1: Town shirt from Texas, and iously that I think you're
Speaker 1: holding the hunkle bone. Yeah, we're like the outside of it.
Speaker 1: This is rock and it's got this chalky substance cortex almost.
Speaker 1: So that's like you find that laying on the ground.
Speaker 1: You find that laying on the ground, you can quarry
Speaker 1: it a well, dig it out at like a churt outcrop.
Speaker 1: Now something like that. I would start chipping with the
Speaker 1: hammerstones and stuff which I brought. I can do some
Speaker 1: tipping for you guys. No, no, no, no, aren't we
Speaker 1: through it? Man? But do you want to bust that
Speaker 1: one up? Or you like that one too? No? No,
Speaker 1: I brought that to break for you, guys. That's a
Speaker 1: beauty piece. Oh no, I mean which is like trying
Speaker 1: to break it. And it's like called the conchoidal fracture
Speaker 1: conchoidal fracture, and so what it means is chirt, basalt, obsidian.
Speaker 1: These are all rocks that break like glass um and
Speaker 1: concoidal means shell like the fracture. Yeah, I've heard that word.
Speaker 1: I never put together what it means. Yeah, it means
Speaker 1: like a little scallop shell. Exactly when you flake it,
Speaker 1: it leaves like a little scalp shell shape. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And because that shape is predictable, and if you understand
Speaker 1: the angles and where to hit it, the fracture becomes
Speaker 1: really predictable and you can basically make whatever you want. UM.
Speaker 1: So a piece like that you would sort of thin
Speaker 1: down into a larger naps. So this is the same stone.
Speaker 1: Is that called a byface or this is called a
Speaker 1: byface because I've I've take flakes off of both sides,
Speaker 1: um and it's got a nice sharp edge. I could
Speaker 1: use this as a processing tool. So now the hunk
Speaker 1: of what's that? What's that again? That's Georgetown shirt? So
Speaker 1: we got a huge as hunk at Georgetown chirt and
Speaker 1: what's the way six pounds? Yeah, I mean it basically
Speaker 1: looks like a big rock um with what's down the
Speaker 1: outside the cortex white CORTI like a dough colored cortex
Speaker 1: on the outside, but the inside is like classic smooth,
Speaker 1: kind of flint looking, flinty looking rock. And this, like
Speaker 1: I said, you picked this up off the ground like
Speaker 1: right where God laid it, Like there it is okay.
Speaker 1: And then someone's not gonna like walk away with fifty
Speaker 1: pounds of this ship in his bag. They might, oh
Speaker 1: you think so, yeah, you would see these. You'd see
Speaker 1: these move from sources. We see people transport rock all
Speaker 1: sorts of distances. Yeah, like in this form, yeah oh yeah,
Speaker 1: in raw form, also in processed form, because I was
Speaker 1: picturing them getting it, like down to what I'm holding
Speaker 1: my other hand, which is this, Uh how how thick
Speaker 1: is that? It's like thick is a slice of bread. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all cleaned up on all sides. It's almost kind of
Speaker 1: like an a workable knife shape, right now, that's right,
Speaker 1: And then of this you could further And what's the
Speaker 1: advantage of that by face that you're holding is that
Speaker 1: it's not sort of the knife itself or the by
Speaker 1: face itself. It's all the fact that all the flakes
Speaker 1: that come off are really useful and razor sharp. Um.
Speaker 1: So this this by face is like a little container
Speaker 1: of stone flakes from every time I take one off,
Speaker 1: I'm like removing a flake from this container to make
Speaker 1: all sorts of other tools or arrow heads or scrapers
Speaker 1: or whatever. What's the furthest you ever seen like like
Speaker 1: origin toolstone travel from like where you expected to find
Speaker 1: it to where like you recovered like an artifact. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they there's a site in northeastern Ohio called Paleo
Speaker 1: Crossing that I've been working on since I was a teenager. Um.
Speaker 1: And uh, the the rock was transported by Clovis people
Speaker 1: over six hundred kilometers UM. And so they picked up
Speaker 1: what's called Wyan dot Churt from southern Indiana and western Kentucky.
Speaker 1: And probably because they didn't know if there was going
Speaker 1: to be resupply rock in northern Ohio where they were
Speaker 1: going to because they were sort of moving into that
Speaker 1: region for the first time, they geared up and they
Speaker 1: prepared and they took a ton of this wine dot
Speaker 1: Churt and transported it northward to northeastern Ohio. Like how
Speaker 1: much is a ton? I mean, like I know how
Speaker 1: much of ton? So we're talking about forty Clovis points. Uh,
Speaker 1: something like eight hundred scrapers. You got a site that
Speaker 1: put off forty Clovis points. Oh yeah, oh yeah, if
Speaker 1: you want to see them too, you guys are all
Speaker 1: welcome to come to the lab and and over how
Speaker 1: big of an area? Ah, probably, I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: think in terms of fifty square meters. No ship really, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty sweet, was it was? It a good decision
Speaker 1: for them to move all that shirt or do they
Speaker 1: have like some good source material to where they took it?
Speaker 1: So why not shurt is awesome? Um so they were
Speaker 1: they knew what they were doing when they picked up
Speaker 1: a bunch of it, and so of geared good rock.
Speaker 1: Oh it's good rock. It's really good. I'm real dumb
Speaker 1: and so. But but again, there is rock in Ohio.
Speaker 1: But since they had never been there before, they didn't know,
Speaker 1: so they prepared. They took a bunch up with them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you go smart from vacation, you bring a bunch
Speaker 1: of sunscreen and you realize was a bunch of sunscreen
Speaker 1: and the airbnb. That's right, that's right. We were in
Speaker 1: Nebraska on a deer hunt and on this this place
Speaker 1: where it went, there was barely any rock and most
Speaker 1: it was just and if you found a rock, it
Speaker 1: was most likely brought there. Yeah. Yeah, the rancher we're talking,
Speaker 1: he was saying that he goes well in this area,
Speaker 1: just the fact that it is rock. It's probably you
Speaker 1: should worth looking at because because there's nothing, there's no
Speaker 1: rock here, man, rock here's something It came in someone
Speaker 1: carried it. No, definitely, and I think god we used
Speaker 1: flint and basalt and conquitally fractured rocks for three million years.
Speaker 1: I mean, this stuff is the most valuable stuff I
Speaker 1: think our species ever used. I mean, it got us
Speaker 1: to where we are today. I mean, and then it's
Speaker 1: the origin of the firearms industry in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: gun flints, right, and then there are hunter gatherer groups
Speaker 1: today that's still use concutely fractured rock for various tools
Speaker 1: and stuff. Okay, bust one upright, putting the safety glasses on.
Speaker 1: I have to and hopefully I won't lose a finger,
Speaker 1: which I almost did once. I see a tap and
Speaker 1: what do you tap? And just listen to the harmonics. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so um, for a couple of reasons. One, if there's
Speaker 1: a dull thud, that'd mean there'd be some sort of
Speaker 1: crack in it. So if I mess up here, then
Speaker 1: it's my fault. It's you're you're testing the sound, testing
Speaker 1: the sound. You want that nice sort of like how
Speaker 1: do you choose your pounding stone? There? So this is
Speaker 1: a sandstone and depending there's a lot that goes into
Speaker 1: it in terms of the type of rock that you're
Speaker 1: flint napping. Also the size of your rock. You want
Speaker 1: to adjust your hammerstone to match it such that you
Speaker 1: can initiate a fracture but not actually push the rock
Speaker 1: out of your hand or out of your lap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: view that way. Your hammerstone probably ways a third or
Speaker 1: a quarter or what your piece of Yeah, probably something
Speaker 1: like that. So I am just one little hit, one
Speaker 1: little hit, beautiful, this nice flake and you can see those.
Speaker 1: So he did one hit and knocked off like a
Speaker 1: chocolate chip cookie off there. So now the first flakes
Speaker 1: that come off any nodule generally aren't that great because
Speaker 1: they've got that cortex, so they're not that sharp. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what's the other word for that stuff? It's called like,
Speaker 1: like in general, how they describe it, um patent a patina? Yeah,
Speaker 1: like is that not the right word? Well, patinas when
Speaker 1: it changes color, Well, we'll get even sharper patentations, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the coloration. Yeah, so no, we'll get some sharper one.
Speaker 1: I mean that comes off sharp though. All right now,
Speaker 1: these first ones, like I said, aren't so sharp because
Speaker 1: of that cortex. But we're gonna get some real sharp
Speaker 1: ones here. And and what are you calling these pieces
Speaker 1: primary flakes? Yeah, and let me ask another question. You
Speaker 1: boys can look at this, and you can look at
Speaker 1: this and say that was broke off. That was broke
Speaker 1: off by a blow. Yes, that wasn't broke off by erosion. Correct, Yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: So conchoidal fracturing stone tools, especially when you start making
Speaker 1: more complex things, there's no mistaking them with with nature.
Speaker 1: It's not like a frost like like water got in
Speaker 1: there and expand and no different. That's correct. So we're
Speaker 1: getting that's a nice sharp An interesting thing about this
Speaker 1: if you're trying to visualize this at home, is when
Speaker 1: he lays the rock down and hits it. Uh, the
Speaker 1: piece he's blowing off isn't on top. He's blowing off
Speaker 1: a piece that is then left. He's doing this on
Speaker 1: his knee with a bunch of leather on his knee
Speaker 1: for padding, and he hits the top of the rock
Speaker 1: and it doesn't knock off the top. He hits the
Speaker 1: top of the rock and it blows a hunk off
Speaker 1: the bottom, and that's where he's then left like laying
Speaker 1: on his lap. Right. And that's why flint napping can
Speaker 1: be so difficult is because you don't actually see the
Speaker 1: product that you're making, and it just takes years of
Speaker 1: experience to know that this product that you're not seeing
Speaker 1: is only created with certain variables that you do see. Um,
Speaker 1: So all right, that's pretty cool man. Now this is
Speaker 1: a really sharply Um, let's use this one though. Actually,
Speaker 1: let's cut some leather. Brought some extra pieces, so fresh
Speaker 1: off the rock, fresh off the rock, so this edge
Speaker 1: right here, go ahead and grab that, and yeah, this
Speaker 1: is some decent leather ship man, So just ahead and
Speaker 1: slice that. Well, yeah, there go slices, leader, man. So
Speaker 1: you can easily disarticulate an entire I mean, it's like
Speaker 1: when you run your thumb across it. It's uh, I
Speaker 1: mean it's like if you just did it to blind
Speaker 1: to someone he said, what's that, they'd be like, it's
Speaker 1: like a kitchen knife. Yeah, well, let's should we knock
Speaker 1: one off the obsidian? Let's see, man, that's I don't
Speaker 1: think you should mess that thing up. Man, do you
Speaker 1: got more of those? I've got more? You can knock
Speaker 1: off a couple here. That was too kind of nice.
Speaker 1: It's always funny when I travel with a bunch of
Speaker 1: rock um, because they always go through my two case
Speaker 1: and they're just like, what the hell is this? Weapons? Yeah?
Speaker 1: A stone? Weapons like Um, so what I'll do is
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna prepare a small striking platform on this.
Speaker 1: What's that mean? So the striking platform in flint napping
Speaker 1: is the spot that you're going to hit. Um, so
Speaker 1: you're knocking the sharp he's like dulling it. I'm dulling it.
Speaker 1: So basically I get a bigger bite when I strike
Speaker 1: huh the flake, and I'm grinding it as well, which
Speaker 1: adjusts the angle slightly. Um, there's all sorts of variables
Speaker 1: that go into flint napping. Now what am gonna do
Speaker 1: is I'm gonna do. I gotta tell you real quick
Speaker 1: that there's two things I've avoided in life is chest
Speaker 1: and flint napping because I got a glimpse into each
Speaker 1: of them and realized that I was never going to
Speaker 1: really figure it out, and so why I mess around?
Speaker 1: You know what, if you were able to and this
Speaker 1: goes for all you guys, if you want to come
Speaker 1: to the lab, I'll get you guys flint napping and
Speaker 1: day a day. Yeah, it just seemed like a deep
Speaker 1: dark hole you can go into. Man, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it it becomes like so from my experience, right, so
Speaker 1: kind of like I've been flint napping for over twenty
Speaker 1: years years. Um. Two of those years I apprenticed one
Speaker 1: of the best flint nappers in the world. Um, a
Speaker 1: guy named Bruce Bradley. And during that two years I
Speaker 1: flint napped ten hours a day every day. Yeah. Um.
Speaker 1: And then I apprentice another flint napper named Bob Patton,
Speaker 1: who's also one of the best in the world. And um,
Speaker 1: for again, just it's it's an apprenticeship. It's like anything.
Speaker 1: It just takes a long time. Will you explain your
Speaker 1: tool change? Yeah, so this is just antler, and antler
Speaker 1: allows you to strike different angles. Yeah, definitely. I got
Speaker 1: some bigger ones too. Here's a moose for larger flakes.
Speaker 1: Look at that, man, Yeah, so like imagine, um, I'll
Speaker 1: describe that call, yeah, an ice cream calling. It almost
Speaker 1: looks like the pedicle end of a moose. Antler. That's pretty.
Speaker 1: That's that's cool. Just like that. So, well, let me
Speaker 1: get slightly bigger one here, just because if you're gonna
Speaker 1: be holding it, I don't want you to lose a
Speaker 1: finger like I almost did. Now there's great quote here
Speaker 1: already where he's like, be careful with that gets sharp
Speaker 1: to the microbial level. Well, you know, it's funny. There's
Speaker 1: uh it does. It gets sharp to the molecule, molecule
Speaker 1: molecular and I'm gonna explain my knives to like two
Speaker 1: people after like that from now on. Yeah, we would
Speaker 1: see a molecule on the end. Now, Um, they're so sharp,
Speaker 1: you might be like, well, why how come surgeons don't
Speaker 1: use them? Surgeons don't like obsidian because it's so sharp
Speaker 1: that they can't feel the different layers of skin. It's
Speaker 1: because it just goes right through. There's no resistance, whereas
Speaker 1: with steel they have just that slight little bit of resistance.
Speaker 1: Um that allows them to sort of feel where they are.
Speaker 1: Now here, Now is that a true story? Someone in
Speaker 1: the flint napping community. Actually, I can see Brody through it.
Speaker 1: Have a surgeon performance surgery with obsidian tools on on themselves.
Speaker 1: So Don Crabtree was a flint napper in the nineteen
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, it seems like driver. Yeah, and he
Speaker 1: made his own Uh. Okay, we're taking the piece of
Speaker 1: the city in which I said, like you can look
Speaker 1: through it, cut at your buddy, not your body. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I look at that man right through. Oh so this
Speaker 1: stuff works. Um, oh ship that sharp. Check that out.
Speaker 1: But like that won't go through a man with I
Speaker 1: don't know what will. Well, it went through my pinky
Speaker 1: finger and they had to restitch everything back together. I
Speaker 1: saw my own bone. You never if you can get
Speaker 1: through life and not see your own bone, that's a win.
Speaker 1: So I've lost that one certainly. Just don't want to
Speaker 1: yourself and trusted there. Yeah, he jumped back to don crabtree.
Speaker 1: He made a citian blades for his own surgery that
Speaker 1: the doctor used. Um, so that's that's pretty cool just
Speaker 1: as an experiment. Well, no, well he had to have
Speaker 1: a curtain. He didn't. It wasn't like an optional surgery,
Speaker 1: but I mean like he wanted to do that to
Speaker 1: see how it would work. Yes, yeah, and it worked
Speaker 1: is amazing. So when you can get edges this sharp
Speaker 1: just from nature, like you can see why this is
Speaker 1: such a useful thing for for ancient people. But how
Speaker 1: can you take that like that rock is it looks
Speaker 1: like black glass? Yes, it's beautiful and obviously real sharp. Um,
Speaker 1: there has been huge chunks of the continent where you're
Speaker 1: not gonna have anything like that. I mean you could
Speaker 1: walk around for months and not seeing anything laying around
Speaker 1: like that. What's amazing is there's church and flint outcrops
Speaker 1: across North America. So now you'll only get certain types
Speaker 1: of rock in certain areas. So like you'll get upsidian
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest, but you know, we'll get church
Speaker 1: in Ohio and in Kentucky and New England and the southeast.
Speaker 1: And when you can't use church or obsidian, you can
Speaker 1: use court sites. Um, there's there's nappable rock all across
Speaker 1: the continent. So you don't find areas where they had
Speaker 1: to use something totally different because they just had nothing
Speaker 1: that would work on this continent. They all had some version. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and we get nappable rock around the world. I mean
Speaker 1: every paleotic culture for the last three million years was
Speaker 1: able to make stuff, find some kind of something. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: all right, so you got your knock off what do
Speaker 1: you call that piece? Though? Any of those pieces you
Speaker 1: got in front of you that you took off of
Speaker 1: the big one just flakes. I mean I can turn
Speaker 1: these into Loyero heads. Show me a flake that you'd
Speaker 1: be like kay now and make me a Clovis point
Speaker 1: from it. So I probably get a slightly larger one
Speaker 1: let me do that real quick. So I'm gonna I'm
Speaker 1: gonna get a platform here and I'm gonna strike off
Speaker 1: a really large flake. You're gonna doule the face. So okay,
Speaker 1: when you get your giant busting rock ready, actually probably
Speaker 1: you're actually braiding it now to dull it up. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: and so you're smoothing it out. It's also slightly adjusting
Speaker 1: the angle of the platform I'm about to hit. And
Speaker 1: then I'm also gonna probably strike this with the moose antler.
Speaker 1: So you feel like, right right now, you kind of
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen. I know exactly what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: Tell me what's gonna happen. Let's prove it. So I
Speaker 1: am going to turn this rock over. I'm gonna support it.
Speaker 1: So you just you you took the edge off, sit
Speaker 1: kind of sanded it down at the angle you want,
Speaker 1: and now you're going to hit it with a giant
Speaker 1: hunkle moose antler. What is going to happen? There should
Speaker 1: be a flake that comes off that will be a
Speaker 1: nice decent sized flight. So you're going to put money
Speaker 1: on it. Chester Okay, just says five bucks. You can't
Speaker 1: do it so not as big. Hold on one second,
Speaker 1: let me just how many chances you No, no, that
Speaker 1: one was my fault. There's nothing wrong with this rock. No, no,
Speaker 1: sometimes the platform crumbles. That happens. That that was the
Speaker 1: platform crumbling. That was a platform crumbling because I did
Speaker 1: not strengthen it enough. So here you go. So how
Speaker 1: much of this is like prescriptive versus like interpretive, Like
Speaker 1: does somebody take a piece of rock and go, I'm
Speaker 1: going to make this now or do they go, oh,
Speaker 1: this happened. I could make this, or I could make this,
Speaker 1: or I might make this. No, like I could sit
Speaker 1: here and make a Clovis point from this rock, Like
Speaker 1: so I yeah, that's what I would. Yeah, but I'm saying,
Speaker 1: like when when somebody knocks off little like char makes
Speaker 1: maraheads too. Oh no, no, um, everything is intentional. So
Speaker 1: it's not just you busted all the pieces and see
Speaker 1: what you got. No, no, no, you have to do
Speaker 1: something specific to get something exactly exactly. Sorry, there we go.
Speaker 1: Oh so that was what he said was gonna happen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what you would happened the first time. But that's okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we still got enough. If you don't like it. Hit
Speaker 1: another one, I believe you now? Oh yeah, no, no no
Speaker 1: that sorry, I can keep going like this one. I
Speaker 1: brought ones that I could sort of finish like this
Speaker 1: one that was pretty good, but like a fella could
Speaker 1: make a close point. Yes, yeah, definitely, because Clovis points
Speaker 1: can get small too. Um, that's for baby man. Do
Speaker 1: you think they did Do you think they did any
Speaker 1: kind of maintenance on a point, Like would they apply
Speaker 1: some mineral oil to it, or wash them or put
Speaker 1: some dust on them? Um? Why just because they were big?
Speaker 1: Because they were big into ochre so okre. When we
Speaker 1: get ochre found on Clovis artifacts, what I suspect is
Speaker 1: happening is that they're not like doing a ritual or
Speaker 1: they sprinkled the ochre on the artifact. I actually think
Speaker 1: what they've done is they've waterproofed the leather bag that
Speaker 1: the Clovis point was in in ochre. That wasn't those
Speaker 1: wasn't there like some ocre involved with that anzik one site? Yeah?
Speaker 1: And we have a um what looks like to be
Speaker 1: a Clovis cash and ohio that we just published, and
Speaker 1: there was ochre on those pieces too. You think of
Speaker 1: their sack I think there was a sack that they
Speaker 1: were all put in when they were buried. Now that
Speaker 1: disintegrated over the last thirteen thousand years and the ochres
Speaker 1: left on the stone tools that were in the bag.
Speaker 1: So that's why I think was happening. But I could
Speaker 1: be wrong. I've been wrong before. Now what are you doing?
Speaker 1: So right now, I'm isolating this platform to get a
Speaker 1: much bigger bite on this flake that I'm about to
Speaker 1: take off. And what I'm gonna do too is just
Speaker 1: adjust the angle slightly. Dude, what would you given to
Speaker 1: sit around naps some flint with the Clovis Dudes? Man,
Speaker 1: do you think you'd be able to? Like? Do you
Speaker 1: think you'd be better they were? Do you think they'd
Speaker 1: smoke you? There is no modern flint napper that would
Speaker 1: ever approach what a prehistoric napper could have done with
Speaker 1: their skill because they weren't brought up with it, not
Speaker 1: brought up with it. And also to like, when you
Speaker 1: when your life depends on on a tool or a weapon,
Speaker 1: like you just understand it inherent intimate level that someone
Speaker 1: who isn't dependent on it just can't. So there's lots
Speaker 1: of foot nappers. The compound interest of it every like
Speaker 1: literally every ancestor you've ever had had always done it,
Speaker 1: and from the time you were a day old, it
Speaker 1: was happening around you. And and so there's modern flint
Speaker 1: nappers today, because there's quite a few hobby flint nappers.
Speaker 1: I think there's probably, I don't know, anywhere from eight
Speaker 1: to ten in North America. They say they think sometimes
Speaker 1: that they're better than ancient folks. Yeah, they're not right.
Speaker 1: They're not because because what they'll make a really pretty
Speaker 1: point and they'll compare it to Clovis ones and they'll
Speaker 1: be like, oh, look, my flaking is better than this
Speaker 1: Clovis point. Well, look, the Clovis person did not give
Speaker 1: a crap about how their point look. They wanted it
Speaker 1: to function. If they had wanted to make a pretty point,
Speaker 1: they would smoke any modern napper. Um so alright, so
Speaker 1: let's strike another really large flake. Cuff here, got his
Speaker 1: moose antler moose, Sorry, the tables, he's cocking back, microphone,
Speaker 1: by the go ahead. There's speed napping competitions, like like
Speaker 1: sitting down and make clothes point as fast as you can. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are speed competitions. There are these things called nappins no, no, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: nappers get together across the continent and getting they sell
Speaker 1: and make stuff and yeah they're like little craft certain things.
Speaker 1: And yeah, napins are fun. Yeah, take away the k
Speaker 1: and I'd be down for that one. A. Are there
Speaker 1: examples of like ornamental points being found ornamental? Yeah? How
Speaker 1: do you know? So there are, because they'd be like
Speaker 1: a quality that wouldn't be utilitarian. Oh, I got you. Um,
Speaker 1: so we get Clovis points, may have quartz, crystal got
Speaker 1: this one. All these ones are flake, they're big, but
Speaker 1: they're snapping. Um, we get courtch crystal, Clovis points, um,
Speaker 1: which as far as I know, don't seem to have
Speaker 1: been used. So that could be some sort of ornamental
Speaker 1: or symbolic thing. Um. Some people think that the flute
Speaker 1: themselves are symbolic because it's so hard to do without
Speaker 1: breaking the point that it was some good omen for
Speaker 1: the hunt to come that if you successfully point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just saying, this is the ideas out
Speaker 1: there after Yeah, that's that's what happens, you know, So
Speaker 1: who knows, but we'll never know, that's right. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's it's fun to have ideas. So you could
Speaker 1: take these flakes, right, so we've got a nice size one.
Speaker 1: Compare it to you know, something that's midway. So you
Speaker 1: think this could potentially be living in here? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: I got a question for you. So you're using a
Speaker 1: rock to knock off a piece of that rock, You're
Speaker 1: using an antler to knock it off. Why why wouldn't
Speaker 1: you use like a modern metal hammer or some tool
Speaker 1: like that. Well, because he's trying to figure out how
Speaker 1: dudes used to do it. No, I'm saying, like, I'm
Speaker 1: asking what would happen? Basically, what are the reasons for
Speaker 1: not doing that? You could use like a copper bopper,
Speaker 1: which is what they're called copper boppers. That's what we
Speaker 1: call them. Nappins. Yeah, Nappins and Boppers. That's a good
Speaker 1: title for the show, Nappins and Boppers, remember that. It's Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's gonna be my podcast. I have my lawyer send over.
Speaker 1: But sometimes you do want to use modern tools if
Speaker 1: the question that you're testing isn't involved in the production
Speaker 1: of those tools. But if we're interested in sort of
Speaker 1: how quickly or how economic you can make a close point,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to use modern tools to answer that question.
Speaker 1: So you could use modern tools to flake, and people do.
Speaker 1: But let me with this one dated to Brody's question.
Speaker 1: If I said, you make me a the Clovis point
Speaker 1: as fast as you could possibly do it, and you
Speaker 1: can use whatever you want, um, would you be like,
Speaker 1: oh sweet, I'm gonna use my No, I would still
Speaker 1: use handler because as I rarely ever use modern tools,
Speaker 1: so I would probably suck with modern But you're never
Speaker 1: sitting around and being like, you know what would be
Speaker 1: great for this is aluminum. We got some aluminum points
Speaker 1: right there, so because aluminum weirdly has the same density
Speaker 1: as churt. That's just I wouldn't even know that that
Speaker 1: is aluminum. Its aluminum. I mean I would, I would.
Speaker 1: I thought you had painted. I thought you had painted
Speaker 1: some No, so this is a Clovis point I did
Speaker 1: out of chirt. This is that same Clovis point made
Speaker 1: out of aluminium or cast in aluminium, and it breaks
Speaker 1: the same way. No, I mean it'll bust like on
Speaker 1: an impact. Better on impact, oh much better on impact? Yeah,
Speaker 1: much better. But the advantage of aluminum for certain experimental
Speaker 1: tests as it doesn't break so even because it has
Speaker 1: the same density, like it has the same ballistics once
Speaker 1: it's in the air, um, and so so you can
Speaker 1: test other stuff break. Yeah, it's a pan the butt
Speaker 1: to keep making. Is that cast off that you took
Speaker 1: the stone and made a cast and cast? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: met My wife does a lot of thrift ng. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She'll go to like an estate sale and then come
Speaker 1: home with stuff that I don't want. And it feels
Speaker 1: like every single estate sale has arrowheads for sale. Is
Speaker 1: there any way like for the layman to look at
Speaker 1: something like that and identify if it was created by
Speaker 1: someone like you or someone five thousand years ago? Yes, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1: So if there are little chips sort of you can
Speaker 1: see that there's this chip is still on there, it's
Speaker 1: just a flake that didn't come off all the way.
Speaker 1: That's from modern napping. Those little chips, while they occurred
Speaker 1: in the past, come off after ten thousand years or something. Um.
Speaker 1: So if you see those little chips, you know that's
Speaker 1: modern around the edge, around the edge. Um. Now, there
Speaker 1: are ways to get rid of those chips. And because
Speaker 1: there's been some cases of people, you know, being less
Speaker 1: than honest with the famous there's a guy that duped
Speaker 1: everybody at a bunch of Clovis points. His name was
Speaker 1: Woody something would he Blackwell duped a bunch of dupe
Speaker 1: some museums and shipped on Clovis points. Right. Well, he
Speaker 1: sold a group of of Clovis tools that he said
Speaker 1: was a Clovis cash. Um and this is all published
Speaker 1: in the New Yorker magazine. Um to uh collector nimforest
Speaker 1: fan and oh, I don't know the fan was involved
Speaker 1: in this cover him extent. That's like, that's like Spencer's
Speaker 1: best friend treasure. Did you find the treasure? But it
Speaker 1: was like sixty miles from here there you go? So
Speaker 1: what do he try to sell artifacts that he made
Speaker 1: as genuine Clovis artifacts of force? Fan? I think it
Speaker 1: was like dollars and um, the transaction went through and
Speaker 1: uh it was then discovered that these were modern replicas.
Speaker 1: How they figured out, Well, you know how he got
Speaker 1: around the you know how he got around the loose
Speaker 1: flake thing a rock tumbler really and you know how
Speaker 1: he got duped? Check how do you know the story
Speaker 1: better than me? Well he used Brazilian stone um as
Speaker 1: I'm sorry now how he got how he got uncovered? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so one of the Clovis points or maybe two of
Speaker 1: them were made from stone from Brazil, and uh, that stone,
Speaker 1: I guess only shines a certain way when you have
Speaker 1: a UV light over it, and so that like Clovis,
Speaker 1: folks in North America weren't using stone from Brazil. But
Speaker 1: I heard another part of yeah, there could be other
Speaker 1: One of the parts of the story is someone had
Speaker 1: a chemical analysis done on the point and they found
Speaker 1: some crazy coding material on it. Yeah, So then they
Speaker 1: were able to find out what the coding material was,
Speaker 1: went to the manufacture. Who does he sell the coding
Speaker 1: material to? One of his clients are the people to
Speaker 1: make rock tumblers? Yeah, And then it led to saying
Speaker 1: that he was because he's trying to create this like
Speaker 1: ten thousand years of laying around. Look, and do you
Speaker 1: know the collector Tony Baker? You ever hear him? I Tony,
Speaker 1: I stayed at his house. He's well, we probably did
Speaker 1: my owning. Yeah, no ship. Yeah, Tony, it was a
Speaker 1: huge loss when he passed. I guarantee he slept in
Speaker 1: the same gustro many times. He told me a story
Speaker 1: where he was at in the state sale and saw
Speaker 1: a fulsome point Bolo tie. Did you hear the story? No,
Speaker 1: I have not heard this thing. He said, that's real.
Speaker 1: Bought the bolo tie for a couple of bucks, took
Speaker 1: the stone off, and on the back of the stone
Speaker 1: was you know how they put like why it out
Speaker 1: and in a label. Yeah, it was a museum like
Speaker 1: it was missing from your museum and he found the museum. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. It was a museum collection piece that gone
Speaker 1: missing and someone put it on a Bolo tipe, you know,
Speaker 1: and hiding in plain sight. He said, one look and
Speaker 1: he just knew. He's like, just something about it. He's like,
Speaker 1: because that's the real point. Yeah, no, that's it. And
Speaker 1: one other way to get those little chips off, not
Speaker 1: that I'm condoning fraud in any way, is you can
Speaker 1: put the napped point in water and then put it
Speaker 1: in the freezer and then when the ice gets under
Speaker 1: that little chip, it pops it off and then you know,
Speaker 1: so those chips are going to be around the outer edge.
Speaker 1: You're saying, um, well, if the flake gets driven across
Speaker 1: the face of your tool, you might get him in
Speaker 1: the middle too. But either way you can get him
Speaker 1: off if you know what you're doing it. But it
Speaker 1: has it'll look fresh it'll look fresh. And I have
Speaker 1: never found anything of significance in the field. I would
Speaker 1: just like to say that. So because that's a danger
Speaker 1: for me, because well, because I can make this stuff right,
Speaker 1: and so I always have to be careful that, you know,
Speaker 1: anything I make doesn't end up in the archaeological record.
Speaker 1: And so UM, when I make pieces, I always signed
Speaker 1: them with a diamondscribe. UM. So if anyone ever does
Speaker 1: microscopic analysis on it, um, you'll see my initials in
Speaker 1: the year on the piece. Um, so they never get
Speaker 1: mixed up. So okay, speaking of which, Um, you know,
Speaker 1: before I came, I did a little research. I saw
Speaker 1: you have a birthday coming up, so I thought I
Speaker 1: would make that little birthday gift. Um. So you can
Speaker 1: just unroll it a little careful, oh man, explain what
Speaker 1: we're looking at here. So this is a type of
Speaker 1: knife called a salutary and laurel leaf. And and this
Speaker 1: is probably one of the most difficult things to do
Speaker 1: in three million years of napping. Um. They're super thin.
Speaker 1: The flaking is really described as is very bold. You
Speaker 1: see all the flakes are really large. And uh, this
Speaker 1: was a style of of knife for point that was
Speaker 1: made about eighteen to twenty one thousand years ago in
Speaker 1: Europe yep. And it's thought to be the pinnacle of
Speaker 1: stone tool working and so even cooler than it depends.
Speaker 1: It's just who you ask. But they're pretty cool, so
Speaker 1: I thought happy, But yeah, not at all. It's gorgeous.
Speaker 1: So are you gonna call the salutary and laurel leaf?
Speaker 1: And it's signed. So if I see on saw the bees,
Speaker 1: that's right. Where's where is it signed? So it's signed.
Speaker 1: You have to look at it just right. But um
Speaker 1: on this flake scar, there's m i e in around this.
Speaker 1: One could steve like a Christmas hamd with that thing.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's gonna be her yeah, or mammoth. It's
Speaker 1: gonna be here with it. Yeah. No, I don't want
Speaker 1: to mess it up and drop it. I still don't
Speaker 1: see it. We may need direct life. But so you
Speaker 1: do it really fine? Yes, I do it fine, so
Speaker 1: it doesn't sort of detract from but it's in there.
Speaker 1: It's in there. Okay, thank you. Man's gorgeous. Tell me
Speaker 1: against slutree and what leaf laureally because it's the shape
Speaker 1: of laurel. Yeah, now I just stab that the brody.
Speaker 1: It did work. Well, so that's the thing I was
Speaker 1: so nervous bringing because I made one for Current too,
Speaker 1: because she's done so much work like getting everything set
Speaker 1: and um, she has a Clovis one. Um. And so
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask this for Steve is KREM's nicer. Well,
Speaker 1: they're different cultures. This is this is hafted onto Antler
Speaker 1: like a split fork. Um. You can imagine like stab
Speaker 1: Broughty between the ribs, turn around and give Larry Cohen Merlein,
Speaker 1: Larry Moan curly with those ant guy in front of
Speaker 1: you with the he'd be like he'd bleed to death blind. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just just him. I mean, already pinned filler. All right,
Speaker 1: let's let's progress along. Let's get to the magic part.
Speaker 1: Yeah alright, Well I want to see you do the
Speaker 1: thing that has baffled anthropologists about why did they knock
Speaker 1: the thing when there's a twenty five chance just going
Speaker 1: to ruin the whole different thing. So you've already done
Speaker 1: all the work. Yes, I brought several because the other
Speaker 1: thing too about flint napping is you want to bring
Speaker 1: backups because if you break it, you can quick just
Speaker 1: like pull out another one. You'll get to go. So
Speaker 1: we've got, you know, different stages, and I've got one
Speaker 1: that's basically ready to flute. So I do need to
Speaker 1: do a little bit of preparation on this thing to
Speaker 1: get what's called the fluting nipple. Yeah, that's a good
Speaker 1: title for the show, the Fluting Nipple. That's gonna be
Speaker 1: my second podcast. Um. But so they'll just take a
Speaker 1: second to get this going. But what's this thing they
Speaker 1: talk about. Clay had some guy talking about that they
Speaker 1: may be used lever no evidence for that, but it's
Speaker 1: just reverse engineered or whatever you call it. They're like
Speaker 1: it would work. So there's a Flinton napper, Bob Patton
Speaker 1: who I mentioned earlier, who you can he could make
Speaker 1: Clovis points and Fulsom points and sort of do them
Speaker 1: the way I do and just hit him directly. You
Speaker 1: don't need a lever um. So you're not buying it. No,
Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. Okay, So you got your clos
Speaker 1: point and it's pretty well like a clous point, except
Speaker 1: for it's missing the diagnostic fluke channel. Flukes that run
Speaker 1: the length the con the concave channels that will run
Speaker 1: the length of the point and give it its signature.
Speaker 1: Look it's significance and then not only that, but diagnostic
Speaker 1: like no one else made them like that. Um, that's
Speaker 1: also untrue. So who else is making them so amazingly
Speaker 1: in the Saudi Arabian Neolithic? Okay, local folks, oh, no,
Speaker 1: go on, But the Saudi Arabian Neolithic they are making
Speaker 1: and fluting points. So just in the same way that
Speaker 1: like birds and bats and insects all can fly. But
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they're all causes. They're not because this
Speaker 1: convergent evolution. Same thing in stone tool technology. Uh, you
Speaker 1: can get convergent evolution really like they arrive at the
Speaker 1: same the same solution. Um. Alright, So what I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do now is I'm actually gonna start to pressure flake
Speaker 1: this a little bit now. Before you do, I want
Speaker 1: to ask you a couple of things. Yeah, how long
Speaker 1: were you at this before you tried this? Probably seven
Speaker 1: or eight years before you tried knocking out, before you
Speaker 1: tried fluting a point? Yes? Yeah? And is it easier
Speaker 1: to flute a Clovis point than a Folesome point or
Speaker 1: is it the same? Hard there is different because the
Speaker 1: falsome point runs all the way to the end. It
Speaker 1: does run a presumably got to do some more work
Speaker 1: on it afterwards. Right, Well, so there's a there's two
Speaker 1: issues there. Um. With fulsome, you in some ways have
Speaker 1: a better chance of success because you're doing a lot
Speaker 1: more preparation ahead of time to get that long flute. Um.
Speaker 1: The other issue is because falsome points are shorter, you
Speaker 1: don't have as much bending um in the point, which
Speaker 1: could break it. Now. Fulsome points are really hard to flute.
Speaker 1: So just like clos, you make one of those, Um,
Speaker 1: I've got one here we can see, and you knock
Speaker 1: those out. I knocked those out. That's beautiful, man. The
Speaker 1: problem with falsom those it takes more time, like a
Speaker 1: lot more time. That's a beautiful point. Way more time, yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's you're doing so much preparation to basically create
Speaker 1: a morphology on the point so you can get those
Speaker 1: long channels. It just takes a much longer. And you
Speaker 1: know how you should talk close about how they weren't
Speaker 1: mammoth on. Yeah, these guys are bison hunters. They are
Speaker 1: definitely bison hunters. And Clovis were bison hunters too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So and that's the thing. We just going back to
Speaker 1: the Clovis hunting. We get statistically more impact scars with
Speaker 1: Clovis points associated with bison than we do with mammoth.
Speaker 1: And the reason for that is because they are hunting
Speaker 1: bison and not hunting mammoth. So all right, let me
Speaker 1: just that's a beautiful point. Man. Okay, you're back at
Speaker 1: the now. There you got you got like not an
Speaker 1: early man tool. So while it depends so not Clovis
Speaker 1: is man off copper, we actually get the earliest metal
Speaker 1: tools anywhere in the world in North America from the
Speaker 1: Great Lakes. Yeah, exactly. It's called the Old Copper culture
Speaker 1: and earlier. Um. Now, I could use an antler time
Speaker 1: to do this, but you have to constantly re sharpen
Speaker 1: antler times pressure blakings. It's just easier. So where's the time?
Speaker 1: Do it'll wear the antler time down? Yes? Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so you just gotta keep getting it the right shape,
Speaker 1: so you're shaping the stone and the tool. Yeah, the butt,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. You have to get this fluting nipple,
Speaker 1: just the right shape fluting nipples, because when it's all prepared,
Speaker 1: you'll look at it. I don't know if it looks
Speaker 1: like a nipple, but that's what they call it just
Speaker 1: that motion alone is just really interesting. I mean you're
Speaker 1: just kind of like pressing down on the edges. Well.
Speaker 1: Pressure flaking, unlike percussion, which is what I was doing earlier,
Speaker 1: does take a little bit of strength, especially if you're
Speaker 1: driving flakes um across the face of whatever piece you're
Speaker 1: flint napping. So I'm gonna drive a few pieces off
Speaker 1: right now. You're gonna not do pressure, but you're gonna
Speaker 1: do some striking. No, no, I'm going to do pressure
Speaker 1: um where I'm gonna really just push these things far
Speaker 1: across the face. So really it's all on the legs now. Oh,
Speaker 1: Like you're getting your hand hour by Like basically you're
Speaker 1: like Suzanne Summer's net thigh mass right now. I don't
Speaker 1: know if I should be as old a references comes
Speaker 1: in the eighties or earlier. So you're like pressing on
Speaker 1: the top side of that it's breaking off, its breaking
Speaker 1: off the bottom side that more time. Sorry, I'm too
Speaker 1: busy thinking Susanne the Summer's thighs, I don't know. So
Speaker 1: so you're just basically pressing on like the top side
Speaker 1: and it's busting off the bottoms. Yeah, So what I'm doing, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm pushing on the edge and basically I'm pulling the
Speaker 1: flake and then but your strength coming like you're like
Speaker 1: pitching it between your legs just to drive your hands together.
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So so a lot of pressure, a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure. So let's see here we do any
Speaker 1: of those nappins and in bloodshed always they get the
Speaker 1: drinking at those. Yeah, I mean like there are some
Speaker 1: tear We actually just uh finished the survey where we
Speaker 1: surveyed flint napper injuries from around the world, and they're
Speaker 1: real bad. I mean, people are getting cuts on every
Speaker 1: parther body. People are using hitting moose bullets in and
Speaker 1: their nuts like it's get any for moral artery. Uh,
Speaker 1: I can see messing around some between your legs and
Speaker 1: sharp things. People getting flakes in their eyes. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're doing the statistical analysis now to look
Speaker 1: at patterns and and where people are hurting themselves the most,
Speaker 1: and so all right, hold on, Yeah, you might be
Speaker 1: able to come up with something that relates back to
Speaker 1: early man would be like, you know the reason that
Speaker 1: they were like this was I read this thing. I
Speaker 1: can't remember what book it was. The guy was talking about, Um,
Speaker 1: the injury sweets that they would see on neander Thal bones,
Speaker 1: and this guy became curious about the suites of injuries
Speaker 1: they would see on them, all the fractures and oh that.
Speaker 1: And he got to talking to a physician who works
Speaker 1: on bull riders and they found this, like, uh, like
Speaker 1: a direct correlation between the the types of bone fractures
Speaker 1: on the hander dolls and the types of bron fractures
Speaker 1: on bull riders. And he came up with this idea
Speaker 1: that they had what he had described as a confrontational
Speaker 1: style of hunting, like that they're in there mixing it up.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they took one shot with something and
Speaker 1: then jumped and then jumped right in. Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: jab a little bit with this stone point and everybody's
Speaker 1: gonna pilot. I'm gonna get him pissed with this stone
Speaker 1: point his game. Remember, we don't want him to move
Speaker 1: too much. So lots of hemorrhoids too, because the bull
Speaker 1: riders got those. Yeah yeah, all that hem roidal tries
Speaker 1: tissue in decays over the years. Man. Alright, so we're
Speaker 1: almost there to flute this thing. And what's that nipple
Speaker 1: called again? The fluting nipple. I should be able to
Speaker 1: remember that. All right, So now this flute probably will
Speaker 1: go to about there because you have to knock out
Speaker 1: two flutes, so that you're just prepared the first flute,
Speaker 1: or you've you've prepared both flutes. No, no no, this is
Speaker 1: the first one. Okay, So then you're gonna go back
Speaker 1: to the drawboard and prepared and do another nipple exactly.
Speaker 1: And is your nipples specific to the face you're working on? Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: so you've nippled it for the what right now? Is
Speaker 1: the top or bottom when it's laying on your legs?
Speaker 1: It will be for like the flute is gonna be
Speaker 1: left laying on your leg is gonna blast off into
Speaker 1: the air. The flute will come off my leg or
Speaker 1: be against left one. Okay, you all right tell me
Speaker 1: before you do it. Yes, I will. And just because
Speaker 1: it's a bit always risky, I just want to make
Speaker 1: sure it's right now. What, Um, there's a high likelihood
Speaker 1: this will fail. Um could be it's like but I mean,
Speaker 1: my I haven't messed up in a while, so I
Speaker 1: probably just screwed myself by saying that. Um. But which
Speaker 1: is why I always bring extras. Failure success failure. So
Speaker 1: the failure you mean that whole thing just breaks. Yes,
Speaker 1: the whole thing will just shatter. If it doesn't break,
Speaker 1: you can happen either way. Are you doing it right now? No? No, no,
Speaker 1: I mean that you always strike off the flute here.
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get the angle a little bit.
Speaker 1: There we go. That's much better. I could definitely see
Speaker 1: how you'd cut yourself pretty good. Mess around with the stuff.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, it can be real bad. So could
Speaker 1: you I'm sure you've thought about this many many times.
Speaker 1: Could you describe, like, what do you think the situation
Speaker 1: this is happening in back in like Clovis times and
Speaker 1: I found a juncture he's getting out. Are you in
Speaker 1: a relaxed situation like sitting on a knob looking over her? Well,
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be. I don't think you'd be making these
Speaker 1: like in the moment. Well, the Maze site, the MASA
Speaker 1: site that we we had some people on top of
Speaker 1: the Mace site and the ma site they think is
Speaker 1: a flint nap and hang out hundreds like a little
Speaker 1: maze top. No sign of campgrounds, like, no signs of
Speaker 1: tent rings. It was a little lookout perch, hundreds and
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of points, thousands of flakes? Were you
Speaker 1: there with? I was at that site with okay now
Speaker 1: with my okay um because Boss Meltzer I think was
Speaker 1: up there too. But their theory there is it was
Speaker 1: you could sit up there and double dip because it's
Speaker 1: a lookout. But they're like, it just seems like people
Speaker 1: sat up there in nap flint. It was like too
Speaker 1: far from water or something. Again, you had to walk
Speaker 1: up on this high little lookout, and they think it
Speaker 1: was like the boys up there shooting the ship, napping
Speaker 1: waiting to see if something comes through. It was a
Speaker 1: nap in. Yeah, that's right, the first one, well, early
Speaker 1: early napping. Yeah, right, you're ready to go. I'm going
Speaker 1: to get ready to go for it. I've never done
Speaker 1: it with wires and stuff. Can you do a drum roll?
Speaker 1: You can? Oh yeah, take that thing off. You're really
Speaker 1: getting hung up in there. Man. It looks so unclosed,
Speaker 1: like they have that headphone on the headset on. Alright,
Speaker 1: So oh tell me what you can do before you
Speaker 1: do it. So what I'm gonna do is you have
Speaker 1: to when you flute it, you have to hold it
Speaker 1: a different way because you want to basically drive the
Speaker 1: flute off but cause as little bending as possible. So
Speaker 1: if I was to hit the flute off just straight
Speaker 1: down with the point flat, that would basically cause this
Speaker 1: thing to snap. Now, by holding the point vertically, I'm
Speaker 1: hitting straight down along the length of the point, which
Speaker 1: doesn't cause as much sort of bending. You gotta wrapped
Speaker 1: in there obviously, so you don't just get ask your
Speaker 1: hand to bits. Yeah, because it's just a it's like
Speaker 1: grip and protection. If that happens. Though, it's a shame
Speaker 1: that this is a podcast, like because my demos for
Speaker 1: my classes and stuff, that's all they're waiting for me
Speaker 1: to hurt myself. Um and so see, I'm just I'm
Speaker 1: cheering for you right now. Man, I want this will
Speaker 1: be the first time I've ever seen a flute as
Speaker 1: much as I've talked about. Oh god, no, I feel
Speaker 1: like there's pressure. I don't want a positive vibes. Okay,
Speaker 1: he's getting ready to hit his fluting nipple with a
Speaker 1: moose and elk candlery moose. You know, I don't know
Speaker 1: what the hell this is. It's that's how you're gonna
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, So and I do a few practice
Speaker 1: swinging that like he's got a black jack and no
Speaker 1: ship really perfect, Look at that. That was badass, man.
Speaker 1: So you do all those practice runs basically a line
Speaker 1: everything hang up, um, and then you just you just
Speaker 1: sort of just tap it so I can do the
Speaker 1: other one now the other side and wrist breaking it again.
Speaker 1: You can just picture up on the maze site like, yeah, well,
Speaker 1: you know it's funny. Dave Meltzer, right, who's been on
Speaker 1: this August show. He worked at a site as a
Speaker 1: teenager called Thunderbird in Virginia. And at Thunderbird it was
Speaker 1: next to a river and they were making close points.
Speaker 1: Now the river gently flooded and basically covered and buried
Speaker 1: everything perfectly at this Thunderbird site, so much so that
Speaker 1: you can like kind of see where people were sitting
Speaker 1: with the rocks around them. Yeah. Now, at one of
Speaker 1: the spots where someone was sitting, you find the base
Speaker 1: of a Clovis point and the tip it's thirty away. Basically,
Speaker 1: someone got piste. They broke their clothes point and shucked it. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: weren't they able to somewhere like at Lindenmeyer something they
Speaker 1: were able to match some of the channel flakes. Oh yeah, man,
Speaker 1: all right, so I guess I'll I'll do the other
Speaker 1: one now, Okay, the second one is gonna be harder
Speaker 1: because it's thinner. No it is, yeah, so more pressure.
Speaker 1: It needs to be a different kind of like a
Speaker 1: better drum roll. Do they ever do a double drum roll?
Speaker 1: Two people doing it? One thing too, is I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have to do a little bit more work builds right
Speaker 1: like one guy starts, another drummer comes in. I'll have
Speaker 1: to do just a little bit more work because this
Speaker 1: is a little flat and when it's when it's flat,
Speaker 1: the flakes don't go as far. So what I'm gonna
Speaker 1: do is I'm gonna drive flakes off and basically try
Speaker 1: to create a little convexity, little a little hump. Oh
Speaker 1: this is a deep, dark, well flinting nat man. Well,
Speaker 1: I think this is the thing, right, is all this
Speaker 1: making the technology is really great? But what where the
Speaker 1: big breakthroughs have come since we founded the labb At
Speaker 1: Kent State is figuring out how this stuff was used
Speaker 1: and more and more we need to start like getting
Speaker 1: this stuff out into situations where hunters are using it
Speaker 1: and so we can understand the science behind That's how
Speaker 1: this works because it's different like have people use stuff
Speaker 1: you've made to kill deer for example. No, So everything
Speaker 1: we've done has been in the lab. So what we
Speaker 1: really need now is to balance those very controlled lab
Speaker 1: experiments with the reality of actual hunting. So, and this
Speaker 1: goes back to the mammoth as as well. So what
Speaker 1: we would love to do, and if you guys are
Speaker 1: game and we can somehow get access to it, is
Speaker 1: when an elephant dies, either at a zoo or if
Speaker 1: there's some cul somewhere, um, I will make all of
Speaker 1: the Clovis weapons and tools and we could hurl them
Speaker 1: into that dead elephant to see how well they penetrate.
Speaker 1: And you'll get someone to volunteer that up on the career.
Speaker 1: And so but if we could, if we could, potendially,
Speaker 1: we would learn scientifically so much because we don't even
Speaker 1: really understand the intercostal distance between the ribs of things
Speaker 1: like elephant, how much space is there on average between
Speaker 1: prints and stuff like how deep is it to the heart.
Speaker 1: We could find no evidence or data on the distance
Speaker 1: from the outside of an elephant to its lungs or
Speaker 1: its heart or deliver all that stuff needs to be measured.
Speaker 1: So if you guys were game at some point, we
Speaker 1: would love to do that. We would create all the
Speaker 1: tools and you guys could spend all day hurling at
Speaker 1: an elephant. Well, I just gotta find a zookeeper with
Speaker 1: a dead elephant freezer tag here in North America or uh,
Speaker 1: you know what you want to listen to. We did
Speaker 1: a podcast episode with a guy named Dr ed Asby.
Speaker 1: Here's not a doctor, like he's like a medical doctor,
Speaker 1: but anyways, he he um to test a lot of
Speaker 1: his stuff and he was looking for that same thing,
Speaker 1: like how can you get a bunch of stuff? He
Speaker 1: would go to where they're doing game farm cling. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and at game farm cling sites he was able to
Speaker 1: like launch projectiles into stuff that was going to die anyways,
Speaker 1: whether he was there or not. Kind of thing. Well,
Speaker 1: there was a situation George Frizzen, who was a wylming
Speaker 1: rancher also a scientist, I don't know. Yeah, he published,
Speaker 1: but he was an archaeolgis in the National Academy of
Speaker 1: Sciences as well, and he he went over to Africa
Speaker 1: and through Clovis points at mammoths, but for whatever reason
Speaker 1: did not record elephant. Yeah, mamoths are dead, You're right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: He did not record how deep they penetrated or anything
Speaker 1: like that. He basically just said, like they can puncture
Speaker 1: the hide a little bit. Um that the papers kind
Speaker 1: of strange, but like you're like, he but what about Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it was nine and so maybe it just it
Speaker 1: wasn't as rigorous. But so anyway, the point is we
Speaker 1: need to hurle Clovis points at dead elephants to better understandings,
Speaker 1: like a very solvable problem. Yeah, and it does. Um, alright,
Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna do some pressure flak in here.
Speaker 1: We had a great uh uh professor at the University
Speaker 1: of Montana. We're taking early people's in Montana, their native
Speaker 1: people's in Montana. That sounds like a good one. It
Speaker 1: was a good one. But one of the first examples
Speaker 1: just kind of get people's heads thinking about the past
Speaker 1: and how they relate to present day. It was um
Speaker 1: he'd had a site up on the back of the
Speaker 1: overhead projector desk, had a site up on the overhead
Speaker 1: projector and it was a little triangle of um flakes
Speaker 1: and he's like, Okay, what is this and you're looking
Speaker 1: at it and there's like a circle of flakes, but
Speaker 1: there's um like a center point with no flakes. There's
Speaker 1: um two points running off from the center point with
Speaker 1: no flakes on it. And he's like, what is this?
Speaker 1: What is this? What is this? And what it is
Speaker 1: is the shadow of a man sitting there napping. Right,
Speaker 1: It's like, right, you're like brushing a little off your legs.
Speaker 1: You're brushing, you know. And so there's like this core
Speaker 1: area with a bunch of flakes, and it was ship
Speaker 1: really it was such a good thing. Like you could
Speaker 1: hear the whole class be like, ah, I gotta say,
Speaker 1: this is refreshing to my normal sort of like popular
Speaker 1: napping because I've napped on History Channel and Discover channels.
Speaker 1: They always have me like sitting in the middle of
Speaker 1: the woods by myself on a log in the studio. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but also too, it's so weird because like anyone who
Speaker 1: thinks of me napping and they seem they just think
Speaker 1: that that's what I do. I just go by myself
Speaker 1: into the woods and like Makestone Hippy as it goes
Speaker 1: to those nappings just behind himself and um, so this
Speaker 1: is this is refreshing. So you're getting your other I'm
Speaker 1: working the other nipples. I'm preparing the other footing. I
Speaker 1: shouldn't say working the other nipple. That doesn't sound right.
Speaker 1: I like it. That would be a good name for
Speaker 1: the show, working the other nipple. We'll probably call it.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's the other one. We hand boppers
Speaker 1: and nappers and nappens. Drum roll, phil Man, No way,
Speaker 1: I don't. Don't do the drum roll until he starts
Speaker 1: doing the practice swings. All right, one of the chances
Speaker 1: now failure right on the first flake. It's got to
Speaker 1: go up for the second flake. I would think so
Speaker 1: because it's thinner. But I mean to be honest, I
Speaker 1: don't think we've ever tried to estimate that. Are you
Speaker 1: feeling good about it? Um? I never feel good about it,
Speaker 1: just because a lot of pressure when also too, like
Speaker 1: you wanna sort of have your eye on on the
Speaker 1: ball and no time for feeling right when you're doing
Speaker 1: those practice swings. Are you imagining yourself inching ever? Like
Speaker 1: not inching millimeter ing ever closer to the strike is
Speaker 1: that you're doing. That's what you want to do? You
Speaker 1: want to basically the first couple of ones, I'm lining up,
Speaker 1: and then I'm getting closer and closer and you just
Speaker 1: want to catch, so you're like like, okay, get warmed up, closer, closer, closer, closer, closer, close, closer,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna hit and it's gonna barely hit. Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, got the antler, got it. It's practice swinging
Speaker 1: a little more. Dressing practice, swing practice, swing practice. I'll stop.
Speaker 1: I like the challenge, so I don't need to do that.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's adding any of the show looking nervous.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, second one broke and so what do you
Speaker 1: think went wrong on that twing? Steve went wrong on dude,
Speaker 1: it's a chance, per face. I think it's a one
Speaker 1: in two. Ozzy, He's gonna bust the thing. It's like
Speaker 1: when Steve's like, shoot shooting. I mean, to be honest,
Speaker 1: exactly is the problem what I've just created? Here we
Speaker 1: find in the archaeological record, So you know, one this
Speaker 1: was this was my fault. I think what I did
Speaker 1: was because I basically I hit um sort of two
Speaker 1: at the wrong angle. I should have hit directly down
Speaker 1: rather than now your Monday morning quarterback. And yeah, now
Speaker 1: when like if someone was doing that and you've got
Speaker 1: that front piece. There is that still usable for anything?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we could easily turn that into close point whatever.
Speaker 1: So and I've done that, not a total No, it'd
Speaker 1: be like, well screw it now, he got out of
Speaker 1: the mud. Anyway, you're napping as fast as you can.
Speaker 1: Like so, but yeah, so what you just saw was
Speaker 1: an actual archaeological up, actual occurrence. Yeah. So besides you
Speaker 1: um needing dead elephants, they've already died, already died anyways.
Speaker 1: And people want to contribute to research. Yeah, and like
Speaker 1: not just really like a pertinent question about contribute to
Speaker 1: research all the things. That's like a pertinent question about history, humanity.
Speaker 1: What are capabilities of kind of like one of the
Speaker 1: great historical mysteries, like what happened to all those big
Speaker 1: gas animals? Climate change? But the climate changed all the time, dude,
Speaker 1: So that is an assumption though, no, no no, no, no,
Speaker 1: it's an assumption that the end of the plisuscene climate
Speaker 1: change is similar to climate changes of the past. And
Speaker 1: and there there seems to have been and again I'm
Speaker 1: not an expert on climate change, um, but uh, the
Speaker 1: change that occurred at the end of the last ten
Speaker 1: thousand years may have been much more draft dramatic than
Speaker 1: what occurred in other interglacials. Um there were interglacial periods
Speaker 1: that got so warm that the pedestal of the Statue
Speaker 1: of Liberty today would have been underwater. It was that
Speaker 1: warm during some of the intergratitional and the ship lived
Speaker 1: through that. But whether or not that caused some sort
Speaker 1: of detriment to population sizes or that would have then
Speaker 1: when they get to the next one. So it becomes
Speaker 1: almost like a degradation over long time, because we know
Speaker 1: from you know, other time periods that extinctions occur all
Speaker 1: the time. Everything goes extinct eventually, so it could just
Speaker 1: be whittling away over tens of thousands, if not hundreds
Speaker 1: of thousands of years long. Me to hit me another zinger,
Speaker 1: bringing up Okay, I got a zinger crawling from mercy.
Speaker 1: Mercy humans okay had been in Africa millions of years.
Speaker 1: Their ship didn't go extinct, that's true. Why is that
Speaker 1: because they co evolved with human hunters. Their elephants didn't
Speaker 1: go extinct, or big o rhinods didn't go extinct, or
Speaker 1: they didn't hunt elephants. But you're saying they didn't hunt
Speaker 1: them here. Yeah, I hope this is real. I don't
Speaker 1: I don't understand my own point. But it's a thing
Speaker 1: that blitz Creek people like to bring up. That's like
Speaker 1: the whole basis of the blitz Creek. It was like
Speaker 1: they're like, look what hapens all over the world? Right,
Speaker 1: humans show up and then there's a contemporaneous die off. Okay,
Speaker 1: and you're like the mora, what's that big gass bird
Speaker 1: in New Zealand? The moa moa and the Maori people
Speaker 1: right once ship in Australia, Okay, big birds go away.
Speaker 1: Islands get hit hard, and then you go and be like,
Speaker 1: but in Africa they kept their camel, they're hippo, they're rhinos,
Speaker 1: their elephants. How else do you explain that, Well, they
Speaker 1: didn't hunt them. There's as far as I know, there
Speaker 1: are no hunting sites. Yeah, there's no hunting sites in
Speaker 1: Why did the global climate change not kill those elephants? Well, because,
Speaker 1: I mean, climate change in North America is a different
Speaker 1: thing in like a northern hemisphere than it would be
Speaker 1: in the equator. Like climate change hits different parts of
Speaker 1: the globe differently, and so if climate change in Africa
Speaker 1: was not as dramatic. Um animals can survive there in
Speaker 1: a way that they wouldn't in North America. But the
Speaker 1: but the mega fauna in the equatorial west western hemisphere
Speaker 1: went away the equatorial western hemisphere. That's yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: So it's not an equator issue. I should read a
Speaker 1: paper well, but the issue. But it's also not an
Speaker 1: Africa issue either. I mean, nor South America is different
Speaker 1: than Africa. So the point was just that there's different
Speaker 1: areas that could be affected differently. But you do admit
Speaker 1: that it's an interesting wrinkle. And I'm not saying too
Speaker 1: that we have answers to any of this of um
Speaker 1: and And to be honest, I think this Clovis point
Speaker 1: issue penetration thing, how deep they penetrate Like at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it is an engineering and physics question.
Speaker 1: Is it possible in some way to get a point
Speaker 1: this size going at thirty one per second? Is there
Speaker 1: some trick that clovised people had to maybe have these
Speaker 1: things penetrate deeper than what we can do today and
Speaker 1: to kill thousands and thousands of mammoth is that possible?
Speaker 1: There are any more or less to kill? And so
Speaker 1: like this issue is not closed, and no one should
Speaker 1: think it is closed. Um, it's an interesting question that
Speaker 1: we need like lots of different scientists, and we need
Speaker 1: lots of dead elephants. We need lots of dead elephants.
Speaker 1: But I think the cool thing about experimental archaeology is that, look,
Speaker 1: there's lots of flint nappers out there. People can learn
Speaker 1: to flint nap. These are experiments you could potentially do
Speaker 1: in your backyard. Right, So if you doubt my results
Speaker 1: or anyone else's, like, there's no reason why you can't
Speaker 1: buy some Clovis points and half them and see how
Speaker 1: deep they penetrate, you know, various media that you've got
Speaker 1: in your back carcasses, whatever. That's a good point. Someone
Speaker 1: could be like, you've always got it all wrong, and
Speaker 1: they have the thing up, and then he can write
Speaker 1: you let them be like, hey man, here's what I
Speaker 1: think what's going on. Well, And the thing too is
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I don't give a
Speaker 1: flying rats ass if I'm right or wrong. I want
Speaker 1: to know what happened. And I think that's the difference
Speaker 1: between a scientist that is committed to evidence and one
Speaker 1: that's not. Like, because even if you're wrong. Your hypothesis
Speaker 1: is incorrect. Being incorrect is a contribution because you've shown
Speaker 1: that other scientists shouldn't go down that avenue of inquiry.
Speaker 1: So um no, I I encourage others to to test
Speaker 1: what we found and what others have found. And this
Speaker 1: issue definitely is not settled. It could even be your
Speaker 1: freshman high school science project. Kidna. Just say, I got
Speaker 1: one last question. Before you tell people how to find
Speaker 1: you and how to apply for your do you take
Speaker 1: on students? Yeah, definitely, we've got You've got too many
Speaker 1: applicants already. We have quite a few. You you're not
Speaker 1: looking for more applicants? Well, we always welcome out. Um uh,
Speaker 1: here's my question for you. And this gets into your
Speaker 1: heart and soul and integrity as a as a scientist. Uh.
Speaker 1: I remember saying to a researcher one time. They're talking
Speaker 1: about a project, and I said, well, what do you
Speaker 1: hope happens? And he told me the reasons why that
Speaker 1: that's not really a thing that you're supposed to do.
Speaker 1: You know, Oh my god, that makes sense because it
Speaker 1: cause a bias. Right, But when you were doing it
Speaker 1: with the uh, when you're doing the work with the
Speaker 1: stone points there has been some little part of you
Speaker 1: and maybe you can do successfully put it aside. There
Speaker 1: has been some party it's like rooting for the point. Look,
Speaker 1: I want to know. I mean, like you gotta be
Speaker 1: kind of like. I went on a PBS national documentary
Speaker 1: on the People in America's and I said on national television,
Speaker 1: the Clovis point could take down any ice age beast.
Speaker 1: Like I thought for a really long time that that's
Speaker 1: what Clovis points could do. And I said it on
Speaker 1: National TV. Um, the evidence at the moment does not
Speaker 1: support that hypothesis. So I changed my mind based on
Speaker 1: the evidence. Um. But some little party was kind of
Speaker 1: the kid and he was rooting for the point. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and there may be again. Like I said, at
Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is a physics question
Speaker 1: and an engineering question. Maybe there's some physics or engineering
Speaker 1: trick that Clovis folks understood about their weaponry that we
Speaker 1: have not unlocked yet that will make their their points
Speaker 1: more deadly and lethal than they currently are. In the lab,
Speaker 1: got it all right? Tell people what how to kind
Speaker 1: of find you remind everybody where you're at and what
Speaker 1: sorts of things you're working on that that might be
Speaker 1: of interest to our audience. Yeah, So we're at the
Speaker 1: Kent State Experiments Archaeology Laboratory, and uh, we're working on
Speaker 1: understanding ancient technologies made out of any material ceramics, stone, metals, leather, whatever, um.
Speaker 1: And we just want to understand how this stuff was
Speaker 1: made and how it worked. And once we can understand
Speaker 1: how this stuff was made and how it worked, we
Speaker 1: can understand why it appears the way it does in
Speaker 1: the archaeological record, and we can understand the evolution of
Speaker 1: technology over the last three million years. Tell me about
Speaker 1: the primal Points project you're involved in. So as any
Speaker 1: scientific field matures, it starts to contribute to society. So
Speaker 1: physics is a very old field and now we have
Speaker 1: all sorts of societal benefits from physics, and same with
Speaker 1: biology and medicine. Well, experiments archaeology is relatively young, but
Speaker 1: we feel that it should be starting to contribute to
Speaker 1: society and in different ways, and so we start to
Speaker 1: think how could that be, And so what we decided
Speaker 1: to do was design a new type of broadhead that
Speaker 1: performs similarly to modern broadheads but looks like ancient chip
Speaker 1: stone ones. So this way you can go hunting bow
Speaker 1: hunting now and and hunt a barker or whatever with
Speaker 1: a Clovis point or a notched archaic point. And so
Speaker 1: we've actually got examples of the technology where essentially what
Speaker 1: we do is we've got aluminum casts of actual stone
Speaker 1: chipped artifacts or arrowheads. And then what we do is,
Speaker 1: through a special pouring technique, we can put a steel
Speaker 1: blade on the inside of it. UM. So it's got
Speaker 1: the same razor sharp edge and the durability of a
Speaker 1: modern broadhead. UM. So you know, you can and it
Speaker 1: screws into modern arrow shafts. Uh, you know, just the
Speaker 1: way any other broadhead would UM and so, but it
Speaker 1: would look like a chip stone one can you make?
Speaker 1: You make a foolesome one. We can make any time period,
Speaker 1: so you can actually tailor your bow hunt UM to
Speaker 1: the area you're going to. So if you're going to Europe,
Speaker 1: you can take a European style um of of ancient arrowhead,
Speaker 1: or if you're going to Australia or Africa, take an
Speaker 1: African style or anywhere, right, so you can tailor you
Speaker 1: can just got the weight, it's got the way aerodynamics
Speaker 1: of stone, but it's got the sharp en durability of
Speaker 1: steel and modern broadheads. So when are you gonna make
Speaker 1: a folsome one? We can make those right now. Well
Speaker 1: not here in the studio, but we could make we
Speaker 1: could make one. Yeah, yeah, definitely flinging it. So that's
Speaker 1: no problem. Are you on social media? I hate social media? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I'm just it's one of my roommates was involving
Speaker 1: You're not like at napping or no, no, no, Um,
Speaker 1: that'd be a good social network. Listen, man, this is
Speaker 1: all kinds of bad ship can say about social media.
Speaker 1: But if you had a social media site and it
Speaker 1: was like, hey, check this point out, here's what we
Speaker 1: think is going on with this and blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: I'd subscribe to that that. And I'm kind of a liar
Speaker 1: like our Lab does have a Twitter account, Um, but
Speaker 1: I don't. I personally, I try to avoid social media
Speaker 1: when I can. Um do. Wild Turkey Doc man, there's
Speaker 1: a guy wild Turk like Mike Chamberlain. Wild Turkey Doc.
Speaker 1: He has a social media channel. He shares his research.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating. I think that they shouldn't be allowed to
Speaker 1: have any social media accounts besides his social media that's
Speaker 1: pretty good. Yeah, he shares his research academic Twitter is
Speaker 1: pretty cool. And then he's got like they'll put a
Speaker 1: tracking device on a turkey and he'll public and just
Speaker 1: on social media he'll have like, what all the turkey
Speaker 1: was up to that? Yeah, it doesn't need to be
Speaker 1: like it's not like, it doesn't need to be you
Speaker 1: talking about I don't know, remile in your kitchen. It
Speaker 1: could be like, uh about stone stuff. Yeah, no, that's true,
Speaker 1: that's true. Um, but yeah, I don't know why just
Speaker 1: social media makes me nervous. Well for good reason, but
Speaker 1: there's there's power in it as well. For now, people
Speaker 1: can email us questions that we forward to. Yeah. For
Speaker 1: now though, if people have a question for you, I
Speaker 1: have an email address. You want all these emails? I
Speaker 1: mean they can find you anyway. Well, let him go
Speaker 1: through the hass little find if now sending dawns and
Speaker 1: in the esteemed Corey Calkins will be like, I want
Speaker 1: to put a clover's point through a car door. You're
Speaker 1: telling me car door? All right, man, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for coming on. Thanks for my beautiful knife. Yeah it's
Speaker 1: lutrean laurel leaf laurel you and thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: This is an awesome. Super appreciate all the stuff you brought. Man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna be fun going back. Baggage claim they were.
Speaker 1: I was like, what the hell is in here? Yeah,
Speaker 1: for sure. Just just my weapons, just my weapons, house Stone,
Speaker 1: all right, man, thank you very much. Hey, thank you