WEBVTT - Ep. 311: Clovis Hunters and Fluting Nipples 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:17.680 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening hunt podcast. 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.360 You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.920 versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:35.800 for every hunt first like go farther, stay longer. Holy shit, man, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.320 we got so much to like. People don't even appreciate 0:00:39.880 --> 0:00:42.599 the level work that goes into this because we're right 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.680 now getting rid of all the stupid stuff we're gonna 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:48.320 talk about to make more room for the main thing 0:00:48.320 --> 0:00:50.560 we're gonna talk about, which is like Clovis points and 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:58.160 Bolsom points, the hell name is meeting Menton is a 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:01.000 Turkish name. It's Turkish. It's Turkish. My dad is Turkish. 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:04.319 He was an immigrant over here. My mom was Irish. 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.360 Shaping up as an American story. Yeah, I was born 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.760 in Cleveland, and hence your hence your but and you 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:13.520 wound up there. Yeah, And I teach them professor at 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.479 Kent State, and um, I speak only one language, which 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:20.920 is American. Didn't teach no Turkish, no Irish. But your 0:01:20.920 --> 0:01:23.319 father was born in Turkey. He was born in Turkey? 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:26.120 Was he so he was not interested in Coloba's points 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:28.120 as a child. No, he wanted me to be a doctor. 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.440 In fact, that was the first one in several generations 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.560 of my family not to go into medicine. But you 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:36.039 are a doctor, well medical, Yeah, I don't really contact. Yeah, okay, 0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:39.000 that's cool. I actually googled ment and before the show 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:40.640 because I've never met anybody with that name. Do you 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:42.160 know what it means? Yeah, it means to be well, 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.559 there's lots of different uh iterations, depending if it's Arabic 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:49.360 or Turkish. But strong in character? Wow, I dig it. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.600 Now you probably picked the best one. Though, what what 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:58.680 would be not as Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:02.600 Strong character, strong character, but there's other negative meetings. Well, 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:04.440 I don't know. Did you find someone strong? Is the 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.960 only thing that I saw? Didn't dig too deep? Apparently 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:09.840 I like it though. That was good enough for me. 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:12.919 That and uh, tell everybody what your PhD is in. 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:17.280 It is in archaeology, Um, but I also have degrees 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:22.359 in experimental archaeology and anthropology. My specialties where I recreate 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.799 ancient weapons and tools and then we reverse engineer them 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:28.640 to figure out how they work. Um, So we actually 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.800 have the world's premier experimental archaeology lab at Kent State 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.840 where we have our own ballistics range and engineering equipment 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.639 and foot napping area and forge and pottery students. Yeah, 0:02:38.639 --> 0:02:41.120 it's awesome. And to come down there. Yeah, we can 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.519 make any arms. Give me like an honorary degree. Yeah, 0:02:47.480 --> 0:02:50.320 a couple of honorary degrees. I like how spear is 0:02:50.400 --> 0:02:56.280 right in the title there too. Yeah, I'm experimental experiment. 0:02:56.400 --> 0:03:00.760 Come back to my ballistics lab. So if you just 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.520 type that into Google, you'll you'll find our website and 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.520 we have a masters that you can apply for and 0:03:06.520 --> 0:03:09.959 and get your Masters in experimental archaeology if you're interested, 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.440 and we can do you. Guys do like ceramics, leathers, whatever, whatever. 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:18.480 We've had musicians, We've had tattoo artists. Yeah, yeah, I 0:03:18.480 --> 0:03:21.280 mean we I mean, look, good grades are important, so 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:24.760 stay in school kids, Um, But like what we are 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.400 really interested in our skills that that are our take 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.200 years to develop, right and and outside of the box 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.720 thinking that comes with those skills. Um. We can teach 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.080 you the science and what a hypothesis is and how 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:40.480 to design a test, But what we can't teach you 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:43.000 is you know that the twenty years it took for 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:45.960 you to learn the viola, or the fifteen years to 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.720 become a tattoo artist or a hunter or a craftsman 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:52.040 or whatever. Um. So we welcome all sorts of people 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:54.360 with with sort of out of the box skills to 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.160 apply for our program because we can use those skills 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:02.320 in experimental archaeological tests, because people in the past made 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:06.200 stuff out of all sorts of materials, um, and so 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.720 we want to learn all of it. We do got 0:04:08.720 --> 0:04:10.080 to talk about a couple of things. We're gonna get 0:04:10.120 --> 0:04:11.840 into this right away, because you know, I teased this 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.520 episode the other day where I saw an article you 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.479 were probably involved in it saying basically the headline was 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.480 like Clovis ain't all that, and it said they couldn't 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.840 actually get anything because their points sucked pretty much. Do 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:27.520 you think that's true. Well, that's the case, let's cancel 0:04:27.560 --> 0:04:30.720 the let's canceled this, and we're gonna put all the 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:32.400 other stuff back in and not gonna talk about it. 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.360 So I think the issue is not that the cloths 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.720 point suck. It's just that they're not like a stone 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:41.360 age a K. Forty seven. They're not a paleolithic Bazooka 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.800 where he basically you can wake up one day and 0:04:43.920 --> 0:04:45.760 just decide, you know what, I'm gonna get me a mammoth. 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:48.440 I haven't had mammoth in a while. So, so were 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:50.559 you involved in that paper? I was the first author 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:55.000 of that. See, I wasn't up Speed of the Year that. Yeah, 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:59.359 I know it was showing around. Um, you know that 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:01.200 I said that. I said, what they're trying to do 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.719 is emasculate Clovis. Do you feel that you're trying to 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:06.960 emasculate clothes? Oh no, not at all, because Clovis folks 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.160 that use Clovis technology are awesome. You think they're badass? Yeah, definitely, 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:12.839 So it's possible to love, just to stop worrying and 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:15.839 love Clovis. Definitely. I just think mammoths, in some ways 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:19.920 we're more badass. That's a good way of looking at it. Um, 0:05:20.040 --> 0:05:22.039 we're gonna solve. Are you prepared to do this too? 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:24.320 And this is something that that uh, you know, Clay 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.440 and I have Clay Newcom there's one of the guys 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.880 who work with He has a very wonderful podcast, um 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.560 called Bear Grease, and he and I are off and 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.680 on like a little parallel Paths of discovery, and he 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.039 was recently doing a piece about the fulsome type site 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:42.760 and invited a guest of his to knock the channel 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.360 flake out of a falsome point? Are you prepared to 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.680 knock a channel flake out of something? Definitely right here 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:51.760 in front of my very eyes? You know, I got 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:54.360 these brand new glasses on. I brought goggles as well, 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:57.200 so nothing will get in anyone. Learn me to the fact. 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.200 You could buy five pairs for like ten bucks, which 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:02.040 I feel like it's probably not good for your eyeballs, 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:04.080 but that's what I did because I'm sickly. I had 0:06:04.120 --> 0:06:05.840 one pair and lost him, and I'm gonna have suns 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.400 bitches everywhere. I don't think they're bad for your eyes. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.160 I think the other the other things bad for your wallet. 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.239 It's a racket you have, But two bucks man, looking 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:16.080 through something to cost two bucks seems like not a 0:06:16.080 --> 0:06:18.320 good idea to me. I might even had a sticker 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.599 that said two dollars on him. Well, no, I was wrong. 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:22.400 I thought it wasn't. I realized I meant two as 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:27.719 Oh you're up to two man, Yeah, getting bad. Quick 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:30.280 question for Hayden, how come so many days have gone 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.560 by and you haven't fixed the artwork. I was actually 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:35.240 gonna get in touch with you, but you were in 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.720 Mexico and I was gonna ask if you wanted to 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:42.440 have that buffalo print more professionally framed before I went 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:48.479 and hung it up the bottom one, Okay, James j Yeah, 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.600 Jamie wild Arts said, that's a custom. Yeah, that's from 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:55.120 It's from a dream vision of mine, of of wolves 0:06:55.160 --> 0:07:00.320 eating a buffalo alive and and pulling it in pusens 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:01.760 out and eating it while it stands. Yeah, I think 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:04.159 it captures the reality. And she sent that framed. The 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:08.120 gentleman that did that buffalo school, uh sent it in 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.960 a nice frame. The frame broke and so Kylie went 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:12.440 and got it. So it's more of an issue between 0:07:12.440 --> 0:07:15.200 you and Kylie. I was expecting you to lower the 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:16.800 one and raise the other one like you had said, 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:18.600 you know. I mean, I didn't ask you to do it, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:20.440 you just offered it. I didn't want to rank them, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:27.240 just weird. It's all good to be here, but hey, 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:35.200 I'm gonna compliment saying with you. It's too late, isn't it. Well, 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.200 let me go back like you look great today. Thanks, 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.640 And then the top compliment is, um, tell everybody what 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:43.040 you just made, because that was the best thing I rate. 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:46.920 Oh well, thanks man. It was a bourbon liver and 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:51.360 smoked trout pat a and uh that was the grease 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.680 on top. That was just bacon fat, just training bacon fat. 0:07:54.760 --> 0:07:58.200 Keep it nice. It was good fat cap Yep, thanks, 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:03.360 really good first bourbon too. So six pounder. Uh, their 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.360 liver is like what or something like that, it's some 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:10.440 outrageous percentage of their body weight. Yeah, it was a huge. Man. 0:08:10.480 --> 0:08:11.760 I just saw it. I was like, oh, there's no 0:08:11.800 --> 0:08:13.840 way you could chuck that thing. It just looked good 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:17.000 to eat. Now, my friends in Alaska turn me on 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:20.760 and just taking it. They just cut it thin and 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:22.200 you don't want to sit there and eat it for 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.000 an hour, but it's kind of fun. Let's like drink 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:27.200 a beer whatever, crackers. They cut the liver thin and 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:29.640 don't put oil on the panks or so much oil anyways, 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.640 and just give it a little ship on a hot 0:08:32.840 --> 0:08:37.880 on a hot, dry skillet. That's bourbon. Just you should 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:39.280 eat some of that and see if it's screws you up. 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:47.439 They're just trailing it though on your eye or something. Yeah, no, no, no, 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.560 bourbon liver. See if you have a reaction to just 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:53.079 smears him on your eye and see if it gets 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.080 itchy or however they do it down there. I don't know, 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.360 um Chester, can you super quick give us a date 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:06.679 on the Walleye situation. Yeah, Seth and I are growing. 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.800 Our excitement is just like going through the roof because 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:16.480 we have a few very excited. We have quite a 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:21.920 few people reaching out to us, and I wanted to 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:27.040 have a further conversation of what getting us a boat 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.280 for the summer would would look like in terms of 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:35.640 maybe partnerships and whatnot. And uh yeah, it's some great companies. 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:38.160 Um you can name that boat with Steve Rino if 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.560 it comes through this the fact that I'm always trying 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.560 to promote it, that's a that's a decent name. But man, 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.719 there's just so many other boat names out there that 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.800 are the biggest thing here is there's gonna be two 0:09:51.160 --> 0:09:55.280 boats sitting idle no for the summer if they do 0:09:55.360 --> 0:10:00.640 get Walleye boat sponsorship, which means you guys get like 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.040 a real boat that boat. Those other two boats are 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:06.160 going to spend their summer as like company boats. Really. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:11.320 Oh yeah, well yeah, that's that's fair. Anybody, if we 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:14.320 get this one boat, anybody is welcome to use my 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.320 boat anytime and also on the tournament season, because what 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:22.320 if you've got to have it ready to go. I'm well, yeah, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.800 I'm saying just in general, like with all of the 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.760 boats my boat. I'm sure I can speak for Seth 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:32.560 to my boat, Seth's boat, this company boat. Like I 0:10:32.600 --> 0:10:34.240 want to get out fishing as much as I can, 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:38.080 so anybody that wants to go fishing, Um, you know, 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.480 let's go fishing. And we've got to share the wealth. 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:43.600 So if a if A if a prominent boat manufacturer, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.840 and that this is a race, a prominent boat manufacturer 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:51.240 comes and says, I want in I want Chester and 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:56.280 Seth to do this Walleye tournament series for me eater 0:10:56.720 --> 0:11:00.800 in our boat because it would give us more marketing 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:04.719 impressions than perhaps any other thing we've ever engaged in. 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:11.760 You're saying that, I mean you're When that happens, this 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:13.760 boat will be Other people will be allowed to fish 0:11:13.760 --> 0:11:16.760 this boat. Of course, And what what is the ideal 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:22.000 walleye boat look like for in Montana? Um, well, there's 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:25.400 a bunch of different things. For the ideal walleye boat 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:30.360 in general is a bigger boat because a lot of no, no, 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:36.720 like I mean like an eighteen nine glass boat. Fiberglass 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.440 boat is ideal. You want something that's a little heavier. 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:42.760 Reason being is because a lot of great walleye fishing 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:46.480 in this area is on bigger reservoirs, and once the 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.200 wind picks up and starts ripping, if you're in a 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.040 little sixteen foot boat like the one I have currently, 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:56.120 it can actually be dangerous. So meaning like you could 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.800 be trapped out there swamp your boat, um because of 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:02.880 the waves. Is it fair to say that these major 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:08.240 boat manufacturers are toying with your life? Chester No, because 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.760 they could buy their their lack of a response, their 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.840 inactivity could actually lead to your drowning. Is that fair 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.240 to say? Well, just think of the jump. I'm a 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:21.280 pretty careful dude. The jumping A boat manufacturer who wants 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.400 to get into the bigs is gonna have by picking 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.560 these guys up. There's there's a design out there that's 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:31.880 just been waiting for its opportunity to be big. Chat 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.800 and South are gonna take it to the top. Mega impressions. 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.480 Do you have to do anything official to become a pro. 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:40.840 This is gonna do for walleye boats what Over the 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.520 Top did for arm wrestling. That's right. People are gonna 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:49.280 be switching their hats around backwards saying turn it on, Brody. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:51.679 I don't I think I mean yet to become a pro. 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:54.360 I think you gotta one be entered into like a 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:59.360 pro circuit um. And it depends on the series like 0:12:59.400 --> 0:13:02.240 bass turning and so I know, like there's to be 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.040 considered a pro, you have to have a certain amount 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:09.079 of winnings. There's like sponsorships involved, there's like pro tournaments 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:11.199 that you So you guys got to work your way 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.280 up to that. Yeah. But my goal to this whole 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:17.440 thing is like I don't need to be a pro. 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:20.280 I want to become the best angler that I can be. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.240 And catching wile and figuring while out is a very 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:27.840 good way to become a good angler in multi Like 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:29.880 if you can figure out how catch while you can 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.040 be a pretty damn good bass angler. Um things like that. 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:37.079 So it's talking at my heart strings. Man, I'm so excited, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.000 especially now that Seth doesn't have to that he can 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.760 do all the tournaments. Oh, because did we get the 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.520 wedding adjusted yeah, because do you hear what we found 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.440 out then in Montana it's one of very few states, 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:51.120 a couple of states where you can have a proxy. 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:56.040 You don't need to be at your own wedding. Um. 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:01.880 Problem solved. Some people see problems, we see solutions. We're 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.679 gonna get back to this stone point stuff. Hardcore. H Oh. 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:08.319 You know what I was. I flew today and I was, 0:14:08.400 --> 0:14:11.960 you know a Salt Lake City has those huge I 0:14:11.960 --> 0:14:13.679 had to fly home this morning. Salt Lake City has 0:14:13.679 --> 0:14:17.600 those enormous escalators. Like the amount of people that don't 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:20.880 walk on there and just stand there. It's like, you're 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:27.280 you're in such good shape. You're in such good shape 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:30.280 that you don't even need to get this little bit 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.840 of exercise. That's how going to shape you're in. That's 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.480 what you're telling me. It sounds like you were about 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:40.680 to miss your flight. Huh. I was, But I was like, also, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:44.960 everybody's so well exercised they can afford to just stand here. Well, 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:47.320 I don't even think it's that. It's like very rarely 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:49.520 in an airport for me, am I not needing to 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:52.880 get to another place, and so when the escalators there, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:54.800 I'm not like, oh this is doing it for me. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.520 If I just keep walking, I'm there fast. It's meant 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:03.000 to like, Yeah, it's into make your efforts pay off 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:09.240 even better. Yeah, like the moving walkways standing on Oh 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:14.200 my god, it drives me nuts. Uh to go positive 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.240 for a minute, Um, brodie, Now are gonna talk about 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.040 something for the until people can't stand here about it anymore. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:26.840 We're gonna start talking about it right now. So, uh, 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.280 when I had children. When I began having children in 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:35.840 two thousand ten, my boy was born, Um, the it 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:39.560 really hit me like, Um, how do you sort of 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:44.120 like as a person that grew up um outdoors hunting 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:46.120 and fishing and had like what I regard to be 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:51.520 like a very sort of productive educational relationship to um 0:15:51.760 --> 0:15:54.400 nature and outdoors. And I had kids, and right away 0:15:54.440 --> 0:15:56.200 I'm like, God, like I want to like do that 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.480 for them. And it's hard. Um. And even back then, 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.960 I thought, someday I want to like do a book 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.440 about kids in the outdoors, which is largely about it 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.560 has a lot to do with just the anxieties that 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:14.560 come from having kids and and wanting to engage them 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:19.520 around nature and just loking hard it is. Yeah, it's hard, 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.480 hard to get everyone out the door. That's the hardest 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:25.880 part by far. I mean, you know, the mittens and 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:28.920 cleaning up dirty kids and stuff along the way, and 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:32.480 dealing with cold kids is difficult. But get them out 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.200 there's the hard part. Uh. I remember one of the 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.360 things I remember when my kids are really little, taking 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.560 them up to our fish shack, and I was trying 0:16:41.600 --> 0:16:45.240 to uh I was. I was imploring my wife, like, 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:46.960 we're not gonna bring a ton of clothes. They got 0:16:47.080 --> 0:16:49.000 to learn to wear them dry. They got learned to 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:50.800 wear them dry. You get it wet, you just keep 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.280 it on. Like I were to see in close seven 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:55.840 days in a row, it gets wet, you wear it, 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:57.840 it dries, and you don't need all these clothes. So 0:16:57.880 --> 0:16:59.720 she I finally get her convinced to go on this 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:02.840 dry program, and we get there and my little boy, 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.479 my littlest boy at the time, wades out to his 0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.080 belly button out in the salt water and ships his pants, 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:17.040 and so I'm being like, she's like, yeah, my wife's like, 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:21.720 where are this dry? It's like, everything is so hard. 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.400 The amount of times I've seen your youngest kid get 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:31.639 wet is unbelievable. It's about every time. You know what 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.240 my goal is, I'm gonna go get wet, whether it's 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.919 jumping into ice hole, taking his shoes off with his 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:41.040 socks in the mud when we're salmon fishing. Um, yeah, 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:43.480 we've laughed a hundred times about last year ice fishing. 0:17:43.560 --> 0:17:46.280 I can remember my birthday ice fishing last year and 0:17:46.280 --> 0:17:50.000 my daughter skating up her her brother are in the 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.960 shanny and her riding up on ice skates. Sand I 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:58.760 got bad news and there isn't any good news. Matthew 0:17:58.760 --> 0:18:03.480 felm the whole both feet, both feet into one hole, 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.679 which is like, seems impossible fish shack when your oldest 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:11.199 broke his arm right immediately before the trip, and so 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:14.879 you have a kid, he was young kid in a 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:21.240 cast with the very serious warning of do not get 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:26.120 this wet. And I mean it was like maybe six 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:28.320 It was less than a professional bull ride for sure, 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:33.000 maybe maybe six seconds. Right. It's like we're unloading stuff 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:35.800 at the fish shack and you turn around and he's 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:41.119 just like elbowed and you're like, huh that all where 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.480 that draft in the in the book I'm about to plug. 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.679 I actually talked about that because, um, my wife not 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:53.080 coming from outdoors background always thinks that everything UM that 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.880 I take the kids to is like dangerous or used 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.720 to like, oh, guns are dangerous, hunting is dangerous, wild 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:02.639 and moles. Every time my kids wind up in a 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:08.439 UM emergency rooms because of something she did. Got him 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:11.119 a swing set, broken arm, got him a lego kit, 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:16.120 Stitches in his head from falling a lego, got him 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:19.120 a scooter, Stitches in his head from the scooter. Every time, 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.880 it was like, that was your thing, all my super 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:26.359 dangerous shit. No one's ever had any problem just getting wet. No, 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:28.840 they get wet, she does something for me. They break 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.280 a bone, didn't you guys get a little visit from 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:38.160 like Protective Services at one point? Man, Like they're like, so, yeah, 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.600 when we got hurt and we weren't looking, and they 0:19:40.680 --> 0:19:43.240 kept keeping us there and dragging it on, and eventually 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:44.919 they come in. And this guy comes in and the 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:46.800 first thing out of his mouth is like, um, what 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.000 are the strengths and weaknesses of your marriage? I'm like, 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:53.359 are you kidding me? Man? Yeah? It's like you gotta 0:19:53.480 --> 0:19:59.160 heard his leg uh jumping off the couch. So anyways, 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:02.000 a but for preorder now, Brodie and I've worked on 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:06.600 this book, A bunch um outdoor kids in an inside world. 0:20:08.600 --> 0:20:11.120 It was it was a it was a project. Man. 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.800 It's a veil preorder all over the place. Get it now. 0:20:16.600 --> 0:20:19.200 It's a release date May second or something like that. 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:22.120 And it's it's it's an argument. It's inside. It's an 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:26.159 argument for and insights into getting your kids, as we 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:32.320 put it, radically engaged with nature. That's awesome. I have 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.000 a six year old and I've been worrying about this 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:36.879 quite a lot, just getting him outside because he's on 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.520 TV and video games and all the sorce. I got 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.880 him a dog, and now he's outside with the dog 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:44.959 all time, walking him all this sort of stuff. So 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.320 little victory, but it's you know, you gotta keep that, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:50.800 keep that. It is a battle, but it's one of 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:52.959 the most important things I think as parents we can 0:20:53.000 --> 0:20:56.080 do today is get kids outside. Yeah, I think so. 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.480 I think for both in terms of engagement with um, 0:20:59.520 --> 0:21:02.880 like just in engagement with ecology and engagement with environmental 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:04.920 issues and also just having like a little grit and 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:07.639 girl man, Like I don't know, I see value. And 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:09.280 I'm not saying it's it's the only way. There's like 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.720 many paths too, like many paths too. You know, I 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.880 know I have great friends who raise kids in Manhattan 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:21.800 and their kids are brilliant, compassionate, wonderful, right, Like, they 0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.800 don't do really anything outside. I'm not saying that that's 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.680 the only way to get somewhere, but especially a situation 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.120 like me is where that's the stuff that I value 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:31.880 and I want to like take my bag of tricks 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.760 and apply it to parenting definitely, you know, because like 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.280 I want them to see people doing things that they're 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:41.560 passionate about. So it's like, and I see people all 0:21:41.560 --> 0:21:44.679 the time, like everybody names your kid Hunter. That's what 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:48.439 they're hoping for. But you know, we've been outside for 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:54.160 six million years. Mean, so might stop now exactly bail 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:58.000 with pre order? Now? That was a spirited pitch. Oh, 0:21:58.160 --> 0:22:01.000 Brody and Cal both out something with a tag and 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:05.040 it can you guys explain? Did you know that he 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.600 got some of the tag? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I caught 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.160 a tagged yellow perch the other day through the ice 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:18.399 down on Late Cascade in Idaho, um which is a 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:25.240 marketing term, right it's it's a reservoir. But nevertheless, you 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:27.600 what do you think they should have called it cascade? Reservoir. 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.119 They should call it jumbo perch. Yeah, I mean thirty 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.280 one thousand. We'll put it this way. There's one tagged 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:38.080 fish for every thirty seven acres of that lake, which 0:22:38.160 --> 0:22:44.320 is just yeah, I mean I was so excited, so excited. 0:22:44.520 --> 0:22:46.960 It was just I mean I love that stuff. And 0:22:47.200 --> 0:22:51.560 it's uh, you know, it's like getting a tag you're 0:22:51.600 --> 0:22:53.840 a banded duck or banded goose or something like that. 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:56.880 Didn't have a like a phone number on it. Yeah. Yeah, 0:22:56.960 --> 0:22:58.720 So it's a coated wire tag. You know. It's not 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:01.600 like a tracking tag or transmitter tag or anything like that. 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:05.119 But yeah, you can call in, Um did you just 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:08.440 call in? Act? I called on on the Unfortunately, it's 0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.720 like automated, you know, um, and there you know, and 0:23:11.760 --> 0:23:14.240 then they're doing like the normal biologist thing of like 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:16.760 while we got you on the line, we're gonna try 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:19.080 to extract even more information from you, you know, like 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.680 how far did you drive, did you enjoy your experience, 0:23:21.720 --> 0:23:24.560 how would you rate your experience, did you like the fish, 0:23:24.600 --> 0:23:28.720 how would you rate your fish? How far did you drive? Oh, 0:23:28.760 --> 0:23:30.199 I mean it's because they wanted to know, like what 0:23:30.240 --> 0:23:32.400 your level of commitment was, right, It was a long 0:23:32.640 --> 0:23:38.320 I mean a long haul get into that uh Cascade reservoir. 0:23:39.240 --> 0:23:43.200 Uh did you say the tag? Do you to keep it? Yeah? 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:45.520 I mean I had every intention of keeping the tag, 0:23:46.600 --> 0:23:49.360 and I put it in the front pocket of my bibs. 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.280 And I must have you know, I had other fish 0:23:53.320 --> 0:23:54.800 and stuff in there, and I must have been around 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:56.840 the gin around. You're keeping your fish in the front 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:58.800 pocket of your bibs. I was keeping just the tag 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:02.000 the front pocket of the bibbs because it was very 0:24:02.040 --> 0:24:04.800 obvious to remember which fish it was, because it was 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:08.200 a fifteen and a half inch two plus pound perch. 0:24:09.080 --> 0:24:11.119 So you put the tagged fish in the pocket, or 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:13.000 you pulled the tag out and pulled the tag out 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:17.160 as if did at that point you had a bunch 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:20.760 of fish. I'm gonna keep it. Yeah, yeah, hearing out 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:23.760 of it. But I have I have all the data 0:24:25.440 --> 0:24:27.280 because you did get it. You did get it. You 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:30.000 lost it after getting everything you needed. Don't you think 0:24:30.000 --> 0:24:32.359 it will turn up though? Yeah? I hope. So I 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:35.960 looked looked all over. Um, but yeah, that, I mean 0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.600 that was super cool, like what what what are the odds? 0:24:38.640 --> 0:24:42.399 And the fact that it was a huge fish. Um, 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:46.280 And really just you know, like looking on the map 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:49.440 looking for old river channels and stuff and poking holes 0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:54.280 through the ice. There wasn't anything like super crazy about it. 0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:57.480 You know. It's just of serious luck of the draw thing. 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.160 I don't win anything, so that was fun. Um. Yeah, 0:25:02.640 --> 0:25:05.840 did you get any information on that fish, like as 0:25:05.840 --> 0:25:09.120 far as like how old it was, uh, not age 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:11.840 because it was tagged as a grown up right right, Yeah, 0:25:11.920 --> 0:25:16.240 but it was tagged a year prior, basically a year 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:21.439 prior at fourteen point six inches in length, and we 0:25:21.520 --> 0:25:24.040 measured it at fifteen and a half inches in length. 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:30.679 So the odd anomaly there is that it grew really 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:35.800 really fast in comparison to all their other fish, like 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:38.159 the rates of growth or are real slow, which I 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:42.920 pointed out to cal Um. It's actually a negative commentary 0:25:42.920 --> 0:25:45.280 on his angling skills, right, it's like that fish because 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:52.159 their fish everything. Um. The one of the most amazing 0:25:52.280 --> 0:25:58.840 things that I learned down there was that they've taken 0:25:58.840 --> 0:26:01.960 a lot of pictures of the growth rings on their 0:26:01.960 --> 0:26:06.480 gill play. They're gorgeous, um and on. So the odo 0:26:06.520 --> 0:26:10.040 lith that earbone that you typically read about folks aging 0:26:10.080 --> 0:26:13.879 fish off of, well on yellow perch the um the 0:26:13.920 --> 0:26:16.040 big gill plate with a little spike on the back. 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:19.359 Actually you can age as well, and you just boil 0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:21.240 that thing out, scrape the meat off of it, put 0:26:21.280 --> 0:26:25.000 it underneath the um like backlight it and you should 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:27.040 be able to see some rings. If you can get 0:26:27.040 --> 0:26:30.080 a microscope, you can see all the rings. Uh. And 0:26:30.119 --> 0:26:32.760 that's that's cool. We should mess around with that a 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:35.439 little bit. Get get set up for that. Yeah, be 0:26:35.480 --> 0:26:38.639 real fun. You're gonna get it soft, you're gonna eat it. 0:26:38.920 --> 0:26:41.840 What is h already ate it? Oh? You know that 0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:43.520 might have been a good idea to get it stuffed 0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:47.320 with it. So here's the funny fish stuffed is all 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:49.960 a lie. They don't have to fish. They don't stuff 0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:52.160 to fish, which is fine because then you can release 0:26:52.200 --> 0:26:53.879 it if you want to. You can get the measurements 0:26:53.880 --> 0:26:57.119 and pictures and release it and right listen, man, I 0:26:57.200 --> 0:26:59.600 see what you're getting at. It's a lie. It's a lie. 0:27:00.160 --> 0:27:02.320 It's it's a big fish tail. But so here's the 0:27:02.359 --> 0:27:05.080 funny thing. Like I sent that picture to Chester and 0:27:05.160 --> 0:27:09.879 Seth and like, well that'd be something to consider actually mounting. 0:27:09.880 --> 0:27:11.520 And I was like I kind of would be neat 0:27:11.520 --> 0:27:15.440 and what would that be Like, well, Um, I'm talking 0:27:15.440 --> 0:27:20.119 with biologistic fishing game Jordan Messner and he's like, yeah, hey, 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:23.080 the Idaho Fishing Game. And he's like, hey, swing in 0:27:23.960 --> 0:27:28.400 to the office. We have a reproduction of the world 0:27:28.560 --> 0:27:32.359 record catch and release perch. And I was like, all right, sweet. 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:35.840 So going to the office, I'm looking at all the 0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:39.560 mounts on the wall. Key back up. Okay, why were 0:27:39.640 --> 0:27:42.479 you on the phone with him? I had to return 0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:47.679 his hockey skates. I borrowed his. Uh. And while okay, 0:27:47.720 --> 0:27:50.560 and while arranging this hockey skate drop off, he says, 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:52.720 you ought to ye, I got you. Yeah, because I 0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:56.800 was skating. We were conversing with him about the tagged perch. No, 0:27:57.200 --> 0:27:59.480 I actually called him. He was on the ice about 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:02.960 a quarter mile away from us, and he zipped over 0:28:03.320 --> 0:28:06.879 and checked it out. It was awesome. Um and uh 0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:09.280 and we got into a bunch of arguments on stuff, 0:28:09.320 --> 0:28:13.000 and you know, it was very educational. But um in 0:28:13.080 --> 0:28:16.320 the office looking at all the amounts and stuff, right, 0:28:17.320 --> 0:28:20.800 And he comes in and he's like, yeah, there it is. 0:28:22.040 --> 0:28:24.600 And I've been looking at this fish and it didn't 0:28:24.640 --> 0:28:28.840 strike me as abnormally large or anything. He climbs up 0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:31.760 on the wall, pulls them out down. I was like, yeah, here, 0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:35.520 check it out. And you know, at the end of 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.600 the day, it's just a fifteen and a half inch fish. 0:28:38.680 --> 0:28:41.440 You know, it's not like I got one of those 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:45.320 in my pocket out of context. Out of context, it's 0:28:45.360 --> 0:28:48.080 just like not that impressive. But when you're out there 0:28:48.160 --> 0:28:51.720 perch fishing and pulling perch up through the ice. I 0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:56.720 mean I was on cloud night. I was incredibly excited, stoked. 0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:58.720 Oh my god, the mouth comes up and you're like, 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:00.560 I can put my whole thumb in that. You know, 0:29:00.920 --> 0:29:02.640 it's hard. It's like a little bit harder to talk 0:29:02.680 --> 0:29:05.480 about big perch because a big perch is still a 0:29:05.520 --> 0:29:08.000 small fish, and so people are thinking they're going to 0:29:08.080 --> 0:29:10.080 see a big fish, but they see what to them 0:29:10.160 --> 0:29:11.560 is a small fish. And then you have to go 0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:14.200 into this whole thing about how it's actually a big perch. Right, 0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:18.160 it's like like the keys white tail, right, Well, actually 0:29:18.240 --> 0:29:20.960 that's not like yeah exactly, this is no. This is 0:29:20.960 --> 0:29:24.320 a very big version of a very small thing. And 0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:27.040 the thing you get all the time is uh, is 0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:33.360 that your first ear? Yeah? But it was cool you 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:36.240 got a tag Kyle help. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't 0:29:36.280 --> 0:29:38.520 notice it was tagged until I was cutting her ivory's 0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:42.800 out because it was it was pretty small. Um. Oh yeah, oh, 0:29:42.840 --> 0:29:46.440 here's the tag and put my spectacles back on. Metally 0:29:46.480 --> 0:29:50.320 your tag? Um, so that was that was pretty interesting. 0:29:50.360 --> 0:29:52.640 They leave you, They leave you a phone number on 0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:55.440 there to call. You're you're in violation of the law 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:58.920 right now, No, I'm not to the biologists because it 0:29:58.960 --> 0:30:04.360 does return to MF W P on the reporter right now? Um, 0:30:04.440 --> 0:30:07.080 are they letting you keep this? He didn't ask for 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:10.640 it back? What what's the stats on the cow? She 0:30:11.640 --> 0:30:14.920 was tagged on February first, two thousand and fourteen, so 0:30:14.960 --> 0:30:19.400 that was eight years ago. Tag three miles from where 0:30:19.440 --> 0:30:22.600 I shot her, so not all that far for an 0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:27.440 elk um and she was I think he said she 0:30:27.560 --> 0:30:29.680 was two and a half years old when she was tagged, 0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:32.040 so she's going on eleven years old. Did you feel 0:30:32.040 --> 0:30:35.360 bad here in that? No? She was a big ass cow, 0:30:35.400 --> 0:30:38.960 I'll tell you that. Um her Look how look at 0:30:39.320 --> 0:30:42.560 how worn down her eyes? Oh yeah, man, she's knocking 0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:45.840 on Heaven's door there, yea, but choose in great shape. 0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:50.480 She was huge. Wow, look at that she the lead cow. No, 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:53.600 She's like, there's about a hundred of them, and she 0:30:53.840 --> 0:30:56.400 was like, it's a long story, but I've never seen 0:30:56.440 --> 0:30:58.520 an ibady look like that. I know, kid, you pretty 0:30:58.600 --> 0:31:02.280 much pull those things out with your face down to Calahan, 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:04.520 has he seen that yet? Know? They were anchored in 0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:07.280 their fine And no, she wasn't a lead cal Chester. 0:31:07.400 --> 0:31:09.960 She was just one of a hundred. Um, there was 0:31:10.000 --> 0:31:12.920 an albino in the herd, which was real, real cool 0:31:12.960 --> 0:31:15.280 to see. The biologist how we didn't shoot that one 0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:20.360 because it was surrounded by a hundred other elk. This 0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:22.600 one was off to the side, you know. Yeah, these 0:31:22.640 --> 0:31:26.760 ivories are not like ivories that much different than their 0:31:26.840 --> 0:31:29.760 actual like milk teeth that you'd pull out of it. 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.880 Well yeah, those milk teeth on calves are real narrow 0:31:32.920 --> 0:31:39.920 and pointy. Though. Um the uh that's awesome. Oh you 0:31:39.960 --> 0:31:43.200 were asking about the albino. Yeah, no interest and shooting. 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:47.880 The biology knew about that elk. Oh yeah he said 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:53.920 he knew, he knew that. That heard that demystifies it. Yep, yep. Um. 0:31:54.080 --> 0:31:57.120 Remember we covered dismember. There was like a famous moose 0:31:57.240 --> 0:31:59.840 in New Hampshire. Something was it was kind of pie 0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:02.800 alder albino and a guy got it. Everybody got pised 0:32:03.200 --> 0:32:04.880 because they've been seeing it around. I mean they see 0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:07.440 all of them around. They because remember that one. If 0:32:07.440 --> 0:32:10.040 I only seen one and it was albino, I don't 0:32:10.080 --> 0:32:12.920 know what i'd do. But um, yeah, I learned some 0:32:13.000 --> 0:32:16.960 interesting stuff that heard that I shot her out of 0:32:17.440 --> 0:32:20.800 The biologist said, there, it's triple what he would like 0:32:20.880 --> 0:32:26.880 to see, the numbers in population. Yes, I'm just telling 0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:31.560 you what an actual scientist told me. But but but 0:32:31.560 --> 0:32:35.680 but I know a few of those fellas, and um, 0:32:35.720 --> 0:32:39.400 that's great. But as I always ask, like according to who, Okay, 0:32:40.440 --> 0:32:43.400 I'm going to give you an example, like because like 0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:46.400 he said, the next herd to the south, which you 0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:48.800 cannot hunt. It's in the same unit, but there's a 0:32:48.840 --> 0:32:52.560 boundary that you can't cross. That heard, you can't hunt 0:32:52.640 --> 0:32:56.600 because there much lower than what he'd like to see. 0:32:57.080 --> 0:32:59.880 That they consider just driving something scurry and something over 0:32:59.920 --> 0:33:04.000 the well, maybe air dropping him in there. But you know, 0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:09.000 I thought it was an interesting example. Capacity thing or 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:12.440 is it a social issue. I'm sure it's a combination 0:33:12.480 --> 0:33:15.320 of both. This heard, he said, spends the majority of 0:33:15.320 --> 0:33:18.560 its time on private Land, so that social part might 0:33:18.600 --> 0:33:21.840 be part of it. Listen, I'm not down on the 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:23.520 social thing. I'm just saying like, well, I hear, like, 0:33:23.560 --> 0:33:25.560 you know, you're this kid that would call me. I 0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:27.560 can't figure it out. There's this kid that reached out 0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:32.080 and uh, he's he wanted to interview me, like he 0:33:32.160 --> 0:33:34.400 his state doesn't he's a high school or his state 0:33:34.440 --> 0:33:39.160 doesn't have a black bear hunt. Maybe he's from Connecticut, 0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:41.400 I can't remember. And he wrote a really nice letter 0:33:41.400 --> 0:33:43.760 that Corey forward aloto me stay in the black bear hunt. 0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:45.480 He's making like a class he has to do it. 0:33:45.480 --> 0:33:47.719 He hasn't make a documentary for his class in high school, 0:33:48.000 --> 0:33:49.680 and he wants to make a documentary by how they 0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:53.200 should have a black bear hunt. And he wanted to 0:33:53.280 --> 0:33:55.760 interview me, and like his documentary focus is going to 0:33:55.840 --> 0:33:57.680 be that if we don't have a black bear hunt, 0:33:57.720 --> 0:33:59.520 there will be too many black bears and it will 0:33:59.560 --> 0:34:01.880 cause all these problems. And I said, call me, you're 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:04.880 barking up the wrong tree. And he hasn't called me. 0:34:06.200 --> 0:34:08.319 Like that's not gonna like, no one's gonna be like 0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:12.800 we're just overrun with high school. I was gonna say, no, 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:18.040 high schooler wants to go rewrite there, or maybe you 0:34:18.120 --> 0:34:20.640 just I'm just saying like you're not like like that's 0:34:20.680 --> 0:34:22.919 not a convincing argument to people. Like people aren't gonna 0:34:22.920 --> 0:34:25.640 picture they're not. It's like there's a hundred other ways 0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:27.840 to approach it, but approaching like that all the time, 0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:30.400 it's like, oh, if we don't, we're gonna be overrun 0:34:30.440 --> 0:34:33.800 by bears. It's like probably not thought it was interesting 0:34:33.840 --> 0:34:36.600 that it was a case of like heard by herd management, 0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:40.160 like yeah, I got you. I'm just like, it's just 0:34:40.200 --> 0:34:44.480 people I think jump a little bit. I used to 0:34:44.520 --> 0:34:48.200 just accepted at face value over like over objective, overpopulated, 0:34:48.400 --> 0:34:49.880 and but once you get into you realize this is 0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:52.759 just a million factors that going like according to who 0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:57.480 is like, automobile insurers have a perspective on deer numbers, right, uh, 0:34:57.640 --> 0:35:01.640 Triple A has a perspective on deer numbers. Agriculture has 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:05.359 a perspective on deer numbers. Um subdivisions with a lot 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:08.400 of expensive what do you call it landscaping have a 0:35:08.440 --> 0:35:11.120 perspective on deer hunter deer numbers, and it doesn't always 0:35:11.160 --> 0:35:14.439 mirror the perspective of a deer hunter dear, I'm trying. 0:35:14.480 --> 0:35:18.000 I'm saying, dear, dear, numbers. That's all, you know, all 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:23.480 of this. Um, I got one hot fact I forgot 0:35:23.480 --> 0:35:26.440 to throw in there. On the perch. How how old 0:35:26.480 --> 0:35:29.839 is perch? How old is the oldest perch? Years old? 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:32.840 Oh that's high. I hope people do that to me 0:35:34.400 --> 0:35:45.799 seven anybody else? Twelve nine six, So prior to late Cascade, 0:35:47.200 --> 0:35:50.160 which now has I think two world records and and 0:35:50.280 --> 0:35:55.319 all the Idaho state records. Um, there's a perch age 0:35:55.320 --> 0:35:59.600 and I think in Wyoming and nine years old now, 0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:04.560 like Cascade is just like in this crazy zone of 0:36:04.680 --> 0:36:08.200 like they're positive these fish are dying of old age. 0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:13.760 I'm not sure at what rate, but their oldest recorded 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:18.840 perches fourteen just a special perch place. Are they worried 0:36:18.840 --> 0:36:22.000 about that fishery crashing? You know how perch populations can. 0:36:22.239 --> 0:36:27.960 So it's gone through several down down periods. Um, But 0:36:28.120 --> 0:36:30.879 it's like what's considered a crash type of thing, and 0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:34.040 and a perch crash is typically like that missing age 0:36:34.040 --> 0:36:38.640 class and and how strong the next age classes or 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:46.080 the previous age class was to where anglers will notice it. Yeah, 0:36:46.160 --> 0:36:49.080 so sometimes it will change like you'll have a fishery 0:36:49.160 --> 0:36:51.959 with like big fish like they have there, and then 0:36:52.800 --> 0:36:56.200 something happens and it's just a lot of little fish. Yeah, 0:36:56.320 --> 0:37:00.160 you boys might have to take off. That's a good one. 0:36:58.880 --> 0:37:04.440 Speaking of records, that was a good cran. Speaking of records, 0:37:05.280 --> 0:37:07.440 a guy wrote in about he's curious, like he was 0:37:07.480 --> 0:37:09.439 disappointed to see that in Boone and Crockett you can't 0:37:09.520 --> 0:37:15.160 enter a squirrel just like a bear. And he's like yeah, 0:37:15.239 --> 0:37:17.080 but he's like, well, how would you measure it? Anyways? 0:37:17.080 --> 0:37:18.799 And I was going to explain him that anything that 0:37:18.840 --> 0:37:22.160 doesn't have antlers is just skull size, So like black bears, 0:37:22.160 --> 0:37:26.480 there's nothing to do turkey. Yeah, but I think I 0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:28.520 think that that's a I don't mean to be Debbie 0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:30.239 Downer to day, but the way they do turkeys, I 0:37:30.280 --> 0:37:32.680 think is a real stretch, because what do you like 0:37:32.760 --> 0:37:34.960 about it? Because it has multiple beards, you get to 0:37:35.000 --> 0:37:37.640 keep measuring all the beards. If you had multiple antlers, 0:37:37.600 --> 0:37:43.360 you'd keep measuring the antlers. All right, Okay, explain that. 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:47.680 Let me do this first. With the exception of turkeys, 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:51.360 everything I'm aware of in the mammal Okay, let me 0:37:51.360 --> 0:37:54.000 put it this way. Everything I'm worried of in the 0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:56.960 mammal kingdom, and the mammal world is not a kingdom? 0:37:57.040 --> 0:38:02.960 Is it? What is it? And may amals uh? If 0:38:02.960 --> 0:38:05.040 it doesn't have antlers you just measured, it's Lengthen with 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:08.200 the skull, I don't think I can argue with that. 0:38:08.360 --> 0:38:10.440 So to be consistent, I don't think he's the one. 0:38:10.600 --> 0:38:13.120 Can he should they measure the tail the weight. I 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:14.719 think it's just it would just wind up needing to 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:17.120 be like if you're gonna do a fox squirrel world record, 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:19.320 I think you have to keep it clean, and you 0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:23.359 do length of skull plus width of skull, and it's 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:28.279 just like that's how mountain lions bears have Lina's. It's 0:38:28.320 --> 0:38:30.319 like all that stuff done that way. So I don't 0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:32.560 think you could break from that. Spencer brings up the 0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:35.080 very good point that they came up with what he's 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:37.920 after for squirrels in the Turkey world, so he'd be 0:38:37.960 --> 0:38:43.120 like he'd be like weight of squirrel plus inches of tail, YadA, YadA, YadA. 0:38:43.160 --> 0:38:47.480 You've got a personal stake in this, right, No, I 0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:49.200 thought you did. I thought you had some kind of 0:38:49.719 --> 0:38:54.520 I have the South Dakota Archery real grand record. Okay 0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:57.400 you do. Yeah, it's a triple bearded bird. I shot 0:38:57.400 --> 0:39:01.399 in so that's a non So you've done what I'm 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:03.600 talking about where you keep measuring the beard. Yeah, I 0:39:03.640 --> 0:39:07.359 like scoring them. It's just like fun man. So off 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:09.640 top my head. I think you figure out the spur 0:39:09.760 --> 0:39:13.360 length on both legs and then you take that times ten. 0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:21.120 So if you have one spurs one inch, okay, so 0:39:21.320 --> 0:39:25.000 you got you know, two, you got twenty. I think 0:39:25.000 --> 0:39:28.760 you take all your beard lengths times too sure, and 0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:31.480 then you have your weight, which there's no modifier on. 0:39:32.120 --> 0:39:34.640 Well why not why not be like in times by three. Well, 0:39:34.680 --> 0:39:37.680 I think my guests an event to scoring, it's too 0:39:37.920 --> 0:39:43.799 uh like make the numbers fairly yeah, because you have 0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:46.640 a twenty two pound turkey who has two inch spurs. 0:39:46.719 --> 0:39:49.719 Now you have twenty plus twenty two and then say 0:39:49.760 --> 0:39:52.560 you have a nine inch beard, times to eighteen, so 0:39:52.600 --> 0:39:55.279 they're fairly like we're trying to give equal weight and 0:39:55.360 --> 0:39:57.799 all these things because some guy could shoot. I get it, 0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:00.560 because you should have Turkey is a little eight on weight. 0:40:00.920 --> 0:40:03.879 He's been rotten, hard, has been eaten, but he's got 0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:08.120 like big limb hangers, big hooks and that guy is 0:40:08.120 --> 0:40:12.000 gonna get screwed. I like this guy's idea. Um, I 0:40:12.040 --> 0:40:14.000 think one issue would be overall weight. There's not a 0:40:14.000 --> 0:40:16.280 lot of critters you shoot where they may lose weight 0:40:16.680 --> 0:40:19.120 because of like where your twenty two bullet passed through 0:40:19.480 --> 0:40:22.400 or something like that. Should you hear my my turkey 0:40:22.719 --> 0:40:27.399 competition story? So I was enrolled in uh some town 0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:29.719 by Doug drn and Dug durn doesn't like people from 0:40:29.719 --> 0:40:35.680 this town. It's ah el Roy. Yeah, this is a 0:40:35.680 --> 0:40:38.120 whole funny story. That's what I feel like. I told 0:40:38.160 --> 0:40:43.719 the story though there the drunkards of el Roy had 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:49.080 a turkey derby, and uh, I'm mostly joke about Dog's 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:52.239 distaste for el Roy. Doug talks about Elroy like it's 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:53.799 the other side of the planet, but it's like about 0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:56.040 a five minute driveways. What's so funny about it because 0:40:56.040 --> 0:40:57.920 he's like talks like, oh my god, over in el Roy. 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:03.120 I'm like talking, it's right there to Wisconsin. So anyways, 0:41:03.120 --> 0:41:04.920 and now I was signed up for the Elroy Turkey 0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:07.880 Derby and it just goes by way of bird. But 0:41:07.960 --> 0:41:10.400 I gutted my turkey, so I bring it up. It 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:11.960 was a huge turkey and I bring it down and 0:41:11.960 --> 0:41:13.480 I was like leading, and then I got beat by 0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:15.680 some other guy, but not like a gut's worth of lead. 0:41:16.040 --> 0:41:17.680 He beat me by like not a gut, like a 0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:21.040 full gut amount. Days later, we stopped in that bar 0:41:21.040 --> 0:41:22.480 because this guy hunt with had to go find this 0:41:22.560 --> 0:41:24.439 old man who is always down there, and we're going 0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:28.440 and they're still sitting there the turkey talking about it. 0:41:28.520 --> 0:41:32.640 Days later. What an idiot. Yeah, I go snoop to tail. 0:41:32.760 --> 0:41:35.560 That's a big thing. Now it's a hunting public. Guy 0:41:35.640 --> 0:41:38.440 started that. You lay your turkey flat, and it's the 0:41:38.480 --> 0:41:41.440 long bird measurement. You you stretched the snoot out as 0:41:41.480 --> 0:41:42.920 far as possible and then you go from the tip 0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:45.840 of that all the way to the furthest tail feather. 0:41:50.080 --> 0:41:52.160 I think it should be this. It's just like it's 0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:57.719 stretched spur length. It's spur. It should be subspecies, but 0:41:57.719 --> 0:42:01.040 it's not actually a subspecies, but subspecies m hm spur 0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:05.319 length because rios have big freaking hooks, right, and so 0:42:05.400 --> 0:42:08.520 you gotta like break it down like that, and you 0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:11.080 draw a line like like you're measuring the tying on 0:42:11.200 --> 0:42:14.200 a deer. You draw a line down the leg as 0:42:14.200 --> 0:42:16.360 though the spur were not there, and then take a 0:42:16.400 --> 0:42:21.400 micrometer and Marry measure the spur and stop all this 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:24.799 multiply and everything. But why aren't there non typical? Right? 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:28.520 So shouldn't your beard your triple beard bird being non typical? 0:42:28.760 --> 0:42:30.480 And then you guys would do your thing where you 0:42:30.520 --> 0:42:43.240 do with I feel like net or gross um. Alright, lastly, 0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:47.840 when we're talking about before we get into the you 0:42:47.880 --> 0:42:52.600 know the main thing stolen tool technology, Indian arrowheads? Um, 0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:54.960 do you guys? You guys don't say that, do you No? 0:42:55.239 --> 0:42:58.480 Usually we say projectile points or you know, it depends 0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:00.480 on time period two. So when you are a little kid, 0:43:00.480 --> 0:43:03.600 did you say Indian arrowheads? Yeah? You know. We just 0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:06.840 got this book. I sent it to so Hank type spencer. 0:43:07.840 --> 0:43:09.520 We had a we had a great guest on, a 0:43:11.200 --> 0:43:15.120 guy named Taylor keen Um. He's a Native American activist, 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:16.360 and we had no I want to want to call 0:43:16.400 --> 0:43:19.120 it a debate, but but we kind of debated the 0:43:19.120 --> 0:43:21.520 two perspectives of the perspective of someone who sees a 0:43:22.440 --> 0:43:24.279 Indian arrow headland on the ground and puts in his 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:26.560 pocket and wants to go put in his desk drawer 0:43:27.360 --> 0:43:32.480 for his own enjoyment and personal you know, aggrandizement whatever 0:43:33.280 --> 0:43:36.480 h versus the perspective of it being like that's a 0:43:36.640 --> 0:43:41.640 thing of someone else that has value being there. Um, 0:43:41.640 --> 0:43:44.000 it could tell a story that needs to be left 0:43:44.000 --> 0:43:47.360 in place, and so leave it put out of respect 0:43:47.360 --> 0:43:48.920 for the people who made it and out of respect. 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:52.440 You know. We had this whole debate someone on Yanni recently. 0:43:52.480 --> 0:43:54.799 Someone sent Yanni this book. I sent to Taylor Keen 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:57.080 just has a joke a text message about the books. 0:43:57.120 --> 0:44:01.400 It was like, um, the idea, how do I identify 0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:04.759 and value Indian arrowheads? It's like it was like a 0:44:04.800 --> 0:44:08.040 trading it was like a trading book. Oh yeah about 0:44:08.120 --> 0:44:10.920 arrow heads? Like worth about you know, artifacts around the 0:44:10.960 --> 0:44:13.200 world are sold and all over the place. I think, 0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:16.680 after guns and drugs, antiquities is the third most profitable 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:21.920 trade illegal trade. Yeah, okay, sounds way cooler than the 0:44:21.960 --> 0:44:26.840 other two. So so talk about what you're gonna talk about. 0:44:26.920 --> 0:44:30.040 We have an Instagram message for someone, says, dear Spencer. 0:44:30.120 --> 0:44:32.280 My name is Declan and I'm a freshman in high school. 0:44:32.480 --> 0:44:34.239 I was wondering if you had any ideas for a 0:44:34.280 --> 0:44:37.200 science for your project related to meet eaters four verticals. 0:44:37.440 --> 0:44:39.719 I was just looking for an idea that is out 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.960 of the box and not basic, like which plant gross taller? 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:45.000 So what do we got for him? That's a basic 0:44:45.040 --> 0:44:50.200 science idea too, Declin? Yes, what dec where we dealing with? 0:44:50.320 --> 0:44:54.200 Decline Harrington Declino Murphy says he's a minor. I don't 0:44:54.200 --> 0:44:57.120 know that. I should say probably don't know. I just 0:44:57.160 --> 0:44:59.319 want to get in origin just so, And you're bringing 0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:02.320 this up because of it? Well, this seems like a 0:45:02.440 --> 0:45:05.560 room that could I d ate some good science. Well 0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:07.600 I thought maybe you were thinking like a related to stone. 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:12.040 Maybe that'd be good. Knives the poop knives be great. 0:45:13.800 --> 0:45:16.319 I think if he wants to sing, would be really good. 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:21.320 But then debates already been settled. Science needs to be replicated. 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:24.400 So well, yeah, just something around poop knives. There you 0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:27.080 go as way into this can, Well, let's come back 0:45:27.080 --> 0:45:31.320 to it. I gotta I gotta handful of ideas. Um, 0:45:31.480 --> 0:45:35.040 he could do it. Here's one. How about he does this? 0:45:35.080 --> 0:45:40.120 Where's he live? I don't know? Mhmm. Let's say he 0:45:40.160 --> 0:45:44.400 lives in a squirrel area. Go out and start weighing squirrels, 0:45:44.400 --> 0:45:47.200 measuring their tails, and then measure their skull and see 0:45:47.239 --> 0:45:49.520 if it's like inverse or not. See if it's like 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:51.439 a good correlation. If he's like, hey, man, it turns 0:45:51.440 --> 0:45:53.399 out big as squirrels a big long tails at big 0:45:53.400 --> 0:45:56.080 gas skulls. So that's what you're barking up the right tree, 0:45:56.320 --> 0:45:59.520 so to speak. Uh. If he turns out that like 0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:05.640 huge squirrel, huge tail, little teeny skull, then we might 0:46:05.680 --> 0:46:08.120 know that that's not that'd be a good project for him. 0:46:08.120 --> 0:46:10.799 There you go, What were you thinking? I think there's 0:46:10.800 --> 0:46:14.200 a lot of stealth around cooking for opportunities. Um. Like 0:46:14.280 --> 0:46:16.200 one one thing you hear all the time, especially with 0:46:16.320 --> 0:46:20.840 your Louisiana crawfish pond friends, is that like if you 0:46:20.880 --> 0:46:22.839 cook a crawfish and it comes out with a straight tail, 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:25.719 it's a bad crawfish to win in the pot dead. 0:46:26.680 --> 0:46:28.239 But I don't think that's true. That's something you can 0:46:28.280 --> 0:46:31.400 easily test and solve a mystery for a lot of folks. 0:46:32.000 --> 0:46:35.359 I think there's also something with like um eggs that 0:46:35.800 --> 0:46:38.000 if you have a chicken egg and if it sinks, 0:46:38.040 --> 0:46:41.480 I think it's it's old, right, or if it floats 0:46:41.480 --> 0:46:44.319 it's it's fresh. I don't know the exact Yeah, but 0:46:44.360 --> 0:46:47.120 here's the thing, man, people already have done all that stuff, 0:46:47.120 --> 0:46:50.080 but they haven't done the squirrel head thing. Okay, I 0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:53.280 bet people have solved all the mysteries that this Science 0:46:53.320 --> 0:46:57.359 Fair freshman class goes after you anyway. Oh, so you're 0:46:57.400 --> 0:47:00.960 saying they're all gonna take a cheap shot, probably a 0:47:01.000 --> 0:47:05.160 lot of paper mache volcanoes. You got any idea scale? 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.560 You know, back in my Science Fair days, there's literally 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:16.200 like a book of Science Fair projects. Right, so, um, 0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:21.879 science doesn't need to be repeated. I would just from 0:47:22.239 --> 0:47:24.919 the bird hunting this year, I think it would be 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:34.480 great to get some new definitive uh data on penetration 0:47:35.360 --> 0:47:40.240 on different um makeups shotgun shells, Like he's like all 0:47:40.280 --> 0:47:45.560 ounce or two and three quarter inch for this kid man? 0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:49.960 Why not shooting into what? Oh he can come up 0:47:50.000 --> 0:47:52.719 with anything, phone books? Oh, I see right, and just 0:47:52.719 --> 0:47:56.959 look at like penetration of bismuth versus tongue, stend versus lab. 0:47:58.280 --> 0:48:03.080 It's on parents day, he's on the parking lot. Boom, 0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:06.640 go ahead, step on up, take a shot. You know 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:10.800 something that non hunters are easily fascinated by is trail cameras. 0:48:10.880 --> 0:48:13.200 If you're ever watching a show on like Animal Planet 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:16.360 or like something on Discovery where they're looking for bigfoot 0:48:16.480 --> 0:48:18.680 and they're using a trail camera. They don't call it 0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:23.080 a trail camera. They're like, yeah, camera trap. Um, that's 0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:25.920 motion activated with night vision or whatever. You could just 0:48:26.000 --> 0:48:27.600 like this, dude, want an easy way out. You can 0:48:27.640 --> 0:48:29.600 just go through some trail cameras and be like I 0:48:29.640 --> 0:48:33.880 took a survey of the mammals on this piece of 0:48:33.920 --> 0:48:39.800 public land in central Hio or whatever where trail cameras 0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:44.680 are now illegal. Yeah, but trail cameras aren't illegal in 0:48:44.680 --> 0:48:49.120 any states for not hunting purposes. Yeah, but if you're 0:48:49.200 --> 0:48:56.279 hunting big foot, that's true. By way of introduction, by 0:48:56.280 --> 0:48:59.080 way of introduction to your work, do you mind addressing 0:48:59.080 --> 0:49:03.279 the poop knife quickly? No, definitely. Um. The reason why 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:06.680 I went into archaeology and anthropology was because when I 0:49:06.719 --> 0:49:10.120 was a teenager, I heard on NPR the Diane Reem Show. 0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:19.000 Uh the boy, Yeah, that's she's a throat. She does 0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:24.360 there's a cancer. No, I don't think it is what 0:49:24.360 --> 0:49:26.920 I'm talking about. I had a friend referred to her 0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:36.000 always as dying ream. That's just horrible, horrible out. I 0:49:36.160 --> 0:49:39.000 was listened man imagine that being that imagine being in 0:49:39.000 --> 0:49:42.080 this situation that she's that she's toughed out, like she 0:49:42.160 --> 0:49:44.120 has to be in this situation of being that you're 0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:47.000 like you are your voice. America recognizes your voice, that know, 0:49:47.200 --> 0:49:49.720 you are your voice of authority, and then you're stricken 0:49:49.800 --> 0:49:52.440 with the health issue that impacts your voice. It's like 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:56.719 almost like Shakespearean. You can imagine how cool I was 0:49:56.760 --> 0:50:00.239 as a teenager listening to Diane Um. You know, yeah, 0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:01.640 did you tell all the guys on the school bus 0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:05.080 about there? Definitely and definitely it was you know. Um. 0:50:05.120 --> 0:50:08.560 But Way Davis who's an ethnobotanist and anthropologist, was on 0:50:08.840 --> 0:50:11.920 the show promoting his new book, and the book it 0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:14.879 was called Shadows in the Sun. Um, really great book 0:50:15.320 --> 0:50:20.279 about ego tourism. And uh. He told the story that 0:50:20.680 --> 0:50:25.799 one of his Inuit informants told him, Um that allegedly 0:50:25.920 --> 0:50:28.880 his grandfather in the nineteen fifties and his family was 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:31.880 being moved off of their ancestral homeland in the Canadian Arctic, 0:50:33.239 --> 0:50:35.280 and he didn't want to go because it was his land. 0:50:35.840 --> 0:50:38.960 So his family was trying to convince him to come 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:40.560 in the igloo and they would leave the next day 0:50:40.600 --> 0:50:44.040 for the new reservation or area to go, and he 0:50:44.080 --> 0:50:46.799 stood outside the igloo and protests and said I'm not 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:49.160 coming in. And day turned to night and got pretty 0:50:49.200 --> 0:50:51.880 cold in the Arctic, and they took away all of 0:50:51.920 --> 0:50:54.719 his tools and all of his utilities to convince him, 0:50:54.960 --> 0:50:57.200 like come inside. What are you gonna do? You have 0:50:57.280 --> 0:51:00.600 got nothing, You can't survive out there. So aged. So 0:51:00.680 --> 0:51:05.000 the story goes, uh, this guy defecated into his own hands, 0:51:05.280 --> 0:51:08.440 and as his feces froze, he honed them into the 0:51:08.440 --> 0:51:11.279 shape of a knife, and he sharpened that knife with 0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:14.399 the spray of saliva, and he called over a dog 0:51:14.440 --> 0:51:18.440 and murdered it with this knife, butchered it, turned the 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:22.360 dog's rib cage into a sled, used the dog's hide 0:51:22.480 --> 0:51:25.640 to harness another dog, and he sped off into the night. 0:51:26.600 --> 0:51:28.359 So I heard this story as a teenager, and I 0:51:28.360 --> 0:51:30.000 was like, oh my god, that's amazing. I want to 0:51:30.000 --> 0:51:33.840 study anthropology and learn about technologies of of indigenous people. 0:51:33.960 --> 0:51:37.360 And well, little did I know, twenty years later I 0:51:37.360 --> 0:51:41.040 found the Kent State Experiment Archaeology Lab and where we 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:43.520 can make any artifact from the last three million years 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:47.080 of human technology, And it was a few years ago, 0:51:47.160 --> 0:51:49.880 I was thinking, well, what's gonna be our next lab project? 0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:54.719 And I remember that story and I remember texting my 0:51:54.760 --> 0:51:57.200 co director Dr Michelle Beber, and I said, Hey, I've 0:51:57.239 --> 0:51:59.880 got a great idea for our next experiment. She's like, 0:52:00.200 --> 0:52:04.360 really what? And I'm like, do you remember that story 0:52:04.880 --> 0:52:06.719 that way Davis told about the Inuit? And I just 0:52:06.800 --> 0:52:11.160 left it at that, no no comment back, no comment back. 0:52:11.480 --> 0:52:14.400 Then I see the little text dots. Oh my god, 0:52:14.800 --> 0:52:18.240 is what you texted back. So we decided to test 0:52:18.360 --> 0:52:21.719 this idea that you can make a functional knife out 0:52:21.719 --> 0:52:25.160 of your own frozen feces, and uh, you guys have 0:52:25.239 --> 0:52:27.719 to use your own faces. So I went on an 0:52:28.040 --> 0:52:34.680 arctic diet for two weeks and uh, yeah, that's what 0:52:34.719 --> 0:52:37.279 I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And uh and what 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.319 was that high end protein in fat? Yeah protein, lots 0:52:40.320 --> 0:52:44.720 of salmon, uh, lots of other fish, fatty meats. Um. 0:52:44.920 --> 0:52:47.160 I do have a kid. So occasionally there was a 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:50.480 couple missteps. It took had to finish the apple sauce 0:52:50.560 --> 0:52:52.760 once and his macaron cheese. But we actually in the paper, 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:55.520 the published paper, we detailed the whole diet for thee 0:52:56.920 --> 0:52:59.839 and uh, then I started to produce the raw materials 0:52:59.840 --> 0:53:02.120 and you know, it's it was amazing. And it was 0:53:02.160 --> 0:53:04.520 a process because you find that the change and diet 0:53:04.600 --> 0:53:09.759 had a change change the b m oh yeah definitely. Um. Also, 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:13.920 just like my overall movement, Yeah, well my whole attitude 0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:16.600 to like, I just became real depressed. And I think 0:53:16.719 --> 0:53:18.879 it was because you know, we've got this awesome lab 0:53:18.880 --> 0:53:21.920 at Kent State where we can shoot stuff and create 0:53:21.960 --> 0:53:25.080 any artifact out of metal or ceramic or stone whatever. 0:53:25.680 --> 0:53:28.279 But instead of being in my awesome lab, I'm at 0:53:28.320 --> 0:53:31.919 home pooping in a bag um, which I then would 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:36.160 store in my freezer because we needed statistically valid sample 0:53:36.200 --> 0:53:39.800 sizes and so I produced a lot of raw materials, 0:53:40.800 --> 0:53:44.960 saving them all up um. And so uh we then 0:53:45.000 --> 0:53:49.319 got dry ice negative fifty degree centigrade, so really cold 0:53:49.360 --> 0:53:53.040 temperatures to make sure we're replicating the Arctic, and uh 0:53:53.239 --> 0:53:57.800 started making this stuff. And um, we got some pork 0:53:58.880 --> 0:54:02.000 and try to to butcher the pork with these knives. 0:54:02.040 --> 0:54:04.480 And we gave ourselves some advantages too, because I really 0:54:04.520 --> 0:54:06.719 want to be able to say, like that ship cut it. 0:54:07.960 --> 0:54:12.560 But so there was no hair on the pork, right 0:54:12.600 --> 0:54:15.239 because that could mess up your blade like the dog 0:54:15.280 --> 0:54:18.720 would have. Also, the pork was refrigerated, it wasn't warm 0:54:19.120 --> 0:54:21.839 like a freshly killed dog would be, you know, because 0:54:21.840 --> 0:54:24.480 I would melt your knife. Um, and I had a 0:54:24.520 --> 0:54:27.520 file in some cases to sharpen my my ship as 0:54:27.600 --> 0:54:30.879 much as I could. Did other people have to mess 0:54:30.920 --> 0:54:35.160 with it too? Well, we actually replicated our own experiment. 0:54:35.600 --> 0:54:40.880 Dr Beber repeated the entire experience with the Western diet 0:54:41.320 --> 0:54:42.880 where it was funny because she didn't know she was 0:54:42.920 --> 0:54:45.279 going to repeat it and she had just happened to 0:54:45.280 --> 0:54:48.120 have Wendy's twice that day. So in the published paper 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:51.840 we had to detail, you know, the fact that in 0:54:52.040 --> 0:54:57.080 history so frosty, yeah, get that. You know, I think 0:54:57.200 --> 0:54:59.880 spaghetti too. But the point is when we went to 0:55:00.000 --> 0:55:05.960 cut this stuff, um, we could not cut anything. Just streaks, right, 0:55:06.120 --> 0:55:07.960 just a different source of streak, but this time on 0:55:08.000 --> 0:55:12.279 the meat, and uh, just the friction from trying to 0:55:12.320 --> 0:55:16.279 do the butchery melted the blade edge. So where do 0:55:16.280 --> 0:55:18.319 you think actually happened that the Well, so there's a 0:55:18.360 --> 0:55:22.400 couple of hypotheses, right, Um, what I actually think happened 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:24.719 is and we this has been documented time and time 0:55:24.719 --> 0:55:29.760 again when you have anthropologists and ethnographers studying indigenous people. 0:55:30.560 --> 0:55:35.240 Sometimes indigenous folks just get sick of getting studied, and uh, 0:55:35.440 --> 0:55:37.759 you know, they sometimes will just make up stuff to 0:55:38.000 --> 0:55:41.080 entertain themselves or to just have a laugh. And yeah, 0:55:41.120 --> 0:55:44.719 and and that's been documented. Um and so it's possible 0:55:44.760 --> 0:55:48.640 that that person told Wade Davis just a story and 0:55:48.920 --> 0:55:52.240 sort of as went into the literature. Who knows, maybe 0:55:52.239 --> 0:55:55.280 it did happen, because the conditions of reality are different 0:55:55.320 --> 0:55:57.600 than the conditions in the lab and we've got to 0:55:57.640 --> 0:56:02.200 balance those two things. Um. So I get it. The 0:56:02.280 --> 0:56:05.680 evidence laboratory wise does not support the idea that you 0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:07.680 can make a knife out of your own frozen crap. 0:56:08.080 --> 0:56:10.600 And my favorite quote from that paper was it was 0:56:10.640 --> 0:56:16.279 like a brown crayon. It was like a brown cran um. Also, too, 0:56:16.400 --> 0:56:19.040 we we managed to slip in there that I regularly 0:56:19.120 --> 0:56:23.160 produced the materials for several weeks. There's a bunch of jokes. 0:56:23.160 --> 0:56:26.279 We want an Ignoble prize. Does that mean so the 0:56:26.280 --> 0:56:32.880 ignobles ignoble? Yeah, he doesn't get it now, so the 0:56:32.880 --> 0:56:37.480 Nobel prize and then ignobles like shame type in going 0:56:37.520 --> 0:56:42.000 to your computer, type in ignoble. But it's uh for 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.000 science that first makes you laugh and then makes you think. 0:56:45.040 --> 0:56:49.160 So it's the funniest science. And so in we won 0:56:49.239 --> 0:56:52.960 the Ignoble for for that study. So it's cool because 0:56:53.960 --> 0:56:55.880 you know they're presented at Harvard and you get to 0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:58.279 go there. Did your university get maddy about it? So 0:56:58.320 --> 0:57:01.720 it's funny because we did all the ethics and stuff 0:57:01.719 --> 0:57:04.960 before we did the study, and uh, I remember sitting 0:57:05.000 --> 0:57:08.920 down with the director of research and they were like, 0:57:08.960 --> 0:57:11.120 you know, we're we're we got mixed feelings about the 0:57:11.160 --> 0:57:13.879 study that you want to do because you know, when 0:57:13.880 --> 0:57:16.120 you type into google Kent State, one of the first 0:57:16.120 --> 0:57:20.680 things that comes up is the May fourth shootings soldiers 0:57:20.720 --> 0:57:28.960 and Nixon. Yeah that's right, Yeah, play that ship bill, 0:57:29.400 --> 0:57:33.960 And so they were like, this study might change that, 0:57:34.120 --> 0:57:35.840 but it's a shame that it's going to be Kent 0:57:35.920 --> 0:57:40.439 State poop knife. Um. And so man, I can see like, dude, 0:57:40.440 --> 0:57:44.360 which you know that's a real that's a real question. Yeah, 0:57:44.400 --> 0:57:47.120 and well we we did it. So now how I 0:57:47.160 --> 0:57:49.760 founded the paper. I was researching for an article on 0:57:49.880 --> 0:57:53.400 Peter Fruakin, who claimed to have been stuck in a 0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:56.960 blizzard in the Arctic and he crawled underneath his sled 0:57:57.240 --> 0:57:59.800 to survive, and he was there for thirty hours and 0:58:00.000 --> 0:58:02.479 a blizzard was so bad that a wall of ice 0:58:02.520 --> 0:58:04.920 formed around him. And he said, in a moment of genius, 0:58:04.960 --> 0:58:09.720 he defecated, turned that ship into a chisel, and then 0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:11.440 broke his way out. That was the only way he 0:58:11.480 --> 0:58:14.840 could escape this little coffin that had formed around him. 0:58:14.840 --> 0:58:18.320 And the only information online available to help solve whether 0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:20.720 or not this could have really happened was your paper. 0:58:21.160 --> 0:58:23.560 Well and and so that's really interesting because in peer 0:58:23.560 --> 0:58:26.400 review and then afterward colleagues and stuff said, well, you know, 0:58:26.520 --> 0:58:30.160 Peter Freakan allegedly, you know, made his chisel, so your 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:32.520 your knife paper has to be wrong. And we said, well, 0:58:32.600 --> 0:58:35.760 knives and chisels are different. And also to the substrates 0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:40.560 cut um meat versus snow that those are different variables. 0:58:40.720 --> 0:58:44.080 So the Peter Freakan story could be true and the 0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:47.560 Inuit story could be false. They're just this is variables 0:58:47.560 --> 0:58:49.520 and science. Now. I think something else to considered with 0:58:49.560 --> 0:58:52.280 Peter's story is that he was the only witness to it. 0:58:52.760 --> 0:58:55.120 He talked about, I think for the first time in 0:58:55.200 --> 0:58:58.960 his autobiography, The Vagrant and Viking Um, he had a 0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:02.800 personality that wanted to attract fame. He was like sort 0:59:02.800 --> 0:59:05.640 of a low key Hollywood socialite. He was in movies, 0:59:06.040 --> 0:59:08.840 he directed movies. He would go to Hollywood parties and 0:59:08.880 --> 0:59:11.640 throw actresses over his head. Um, like he really liked 0:59:11.640 --> 0:59:13.720 the attention. He would on the game show the sixty 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:17.080 four thousand dollar Question. Um. So the question though, is like, 0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:19.440 if you've got all these options to make up how 0:59:19.520 --> 0:59:21.840 you broke out of an ice strip, right, why would 0:59:21.880 --> 0:59:25.240 you go with poop chisel? Because he maybe he had 0:59:25.280 --> 0:59:29.600 heard that story that you had heard, well, Peter Freak, 0:59:29.640 --> 0:59:35.040 and that her peppened. So this story happened in the 0:59:35.160 --> 0:59:38.680 nineteen fifties, it would be he would also in your 0:59:38.720 --> 0:59:41.760 list there, Spencer have to be wearing garments that lacked 0:59:41.840 --> 0:59:45.560 any sort of pockets or carrying capacity whatsoever. I mean, 0:59:45.600 --> 0:59:49.000 there's just not from the second I get dressed out 0:59:49.000 --> 0:59:52.400 of the shower, there's not a situation that I'm in 0:59:52.440 --> 0:59:54.360 where I don't have something in my pocket that would 0:59:54.360 --> 0:59:59.200 be better than a poop chisel. Yeah. So, based on 0:59:59.240 --> 1:00:03.080 your paper and Peter's personality, I don't think he did it. 1:00:03.480 --> 1:00:06.320 I'm not buying him. The high schooler needs a project. 1:00:06.320 --> 1:00:12.280 There you go, yeah, yeah, needs to replicate that you 1:00:12.360 --> 1:00:15.920 replicated the other thing. He needs to replicate that if 1:00:15.920 --> 1:00:17.720 we knew where this dude lived, to be real helpful, 1:00:18.320 --> 1:00:21.320 it's like Florida where it's really hot Florida. That would 1:00:21.320 --> 1:00:23.120 be the worst poop knife of all time. So if 1:00:23.120 --> 1:00:26.640 you want to read the article that I had reference 1:00:27.520 --> 1:00:30.560 his paper, it's fact checker did explore Peter freaking save 1:00:30.600 --> 1:00:32.360 his life with a poop chisel. Can find that on 1:00:32.400 --> 1:00:36.400 the meteor dot com. I wrote it in one great plod. Yeah, 1:00:36.440 --> 1:00:39.320 the the decline name. I'm still thinking he's like Irish 1:00:39.360 --> 1:00:41.360 bunny camp be in the sun too long, probably in 1:00:41.560 --> 1:00:53.880 northern climates. Okay, trying to think out. There's a million 1:00:53.920 --> 1:00:55.160 ways to get into I'm trying to think of how 1:00:55.160 --> 1:00:56.960 best to get into it. Let's get into it like this. 1:00:57.000 --> 1:01:02.240 We was talking about the poop knife. Explain, um, why 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:06.120 explain the question about Clovis and go as broad as 1:01:06.160 --> 1:01:11.760 you want, meaning um you can kind because there's the 1:01:11.760 --> 1:01:15.720 thing we've talked about extensively, is like the blitz Creeg hypothesis. Okay, 1:01:15.920 --> 1:01:17.920 so however you want to set it up, walk us 1:01:18.040 --> 1:01:25.040 into the paper. You recently did about did these boys 1:01:25.080 --> 1:01:29.640 really go out and make stone projectile points and take 1:01:29.680 --> 1:01:33.360 down how big or mammoths real big? You know, like 1:01:33.400 --> 1:01:37.680 two tons? Oh yeah, easily? Were they chiseling little stone 1:01:37.680 --> 1:01:41.360 points and knocking mammoths down? Alright? So why is that? 1:01:41.640 --> 1:01:43.720 Why is that a question that sort of goes beyond 1:01:43.800 --> 1:01:50.560 just simple curiosity. So mega fauna, right, thirty five genera 1:01:50.640 --> 1:01:52.760 of mega fauna when extinct at the end of the 1:01:52.800 --> 1:01:56.120 Plaza scene, so about ten thou years ago, um. And 1:01:56.480 --> 1:01:59.200 the big question is whether or not humans in North 1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:03.240 America had any role in those extinctions. And that speaks 1:02:03.280 --> 1:02:06.720 to two larger philosophical issues about you know, our nature 1:02:06.760 --> 1:02:09.960 and balanced with you know, ecosystems and all this sort 1:02:09.960 --> 1:02:15.280 of stuff. So people that use Clovis technology were some 1:02:15.360 --> 1:02:18.600 of the very first people on the continent and and 1:02:18.600 --> 1:02:21.640 we know Clovis spoke state to around thirteen thousand, six 1:02:21.680 --> 1:02:25.360 hundred years ago. Now, back in the fifties and the sixties, 1:02:25.400 --> 1:02:28.480 when archaeologists were really getting into the study of Clovis, 1:02:28.600 --> 1:02:31.640 they noticed that, wow, just as Clovis people seem to 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:36.040 be traveling across the continent, all these mega fauna really 1:02:36.080 --> 1:02:38.320 seem to be dying, and so there must be a 1:02:38.360 --> 1:02:41.160 connection there. There's co variance, but not just around the continent, 1:02:41.200 --> 1:02:44.400 around the world. Man, well look at the islands that 1:02:44.440 --> 1:02:46.600 wound up having ma'am is still four thousand years ago. 1:02:46.600 --> 1:02:50.720 What happened four thousand years ago? Dude showed up Wrangle 1:02:50.800 --> 1:02:54.600 Wrangle island. That's true. Now, there's there's two issues with that. 1:02:55.480 --> 1:02:59.000 One is that island extinctions are different than continental extinctions. 1:02:59.000 --> 1:03:02.040 They have one dude show up. The other issues that 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:05.080 paper just recently came out that showed that mammoths were 1:03:05.120 --> 1:03:12.120 surviving um in northern regions until very recently. So we 1:03:12.120 --> 1:03:17.280 did not cause their extinction. Yeah and so yeah, so, 1:03:17.680 --> 1:03:19.880 but it's a good point. Island. We we are terrible 1:03:19.880 --> 1:03:22.320 on islands, Like the wrinkle is not that big too. 1:03:22.360 --> 1:03:26.160 So like there's all these other factors that I'll let 1:03:26.200 --> 1:03:31.520 you go on. But you got a lot of inbreeding, uh, shrinking, 1:03:32.920 --> 1:03:38.080 malformed mammoths on that island to where it could be 1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:40.919 possible that the people who do show up and kill them, 1:03:41.760 --> 1:03:46.680 maybe they weren't so great, Maybe their timing was great. Yeah, 1:03:47.160 --> 1:03:50.200 I don't want to get into it. Steve's like I 1:03:50.320 --> 1:03:54.480 descended from these people who killed mammoths, and I'm very 1:03:54.520 --> 1:03:57.480 proud of that. Well, there's an issue too as to 1:03:57.640 --> 1:04:01.320 whether or not we hunted mammoths versus hunted them to extinction. 1:04:02.440 --> 1:04:05.280 And so I don't think anyone doubts that on occasion 1:04:05.720 --> 1:04:09.040 people that use Clovis technology hunted mammoths. You know, there's 1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:12.760 there's archaeological evidence that on some occasions that seem to 1:04:12.760 --> 1:04:16.200 have occurred. Um, the big question is whether we hunted 1:04:16.240 --> 1:04:20.440 them so much with the Clovis fluted point, um, that 1:04:20.960 --> 1:04:23.000 we wiped them out. Yeah, because a guy like me 1:04:23.120 --> 1:04:26.520 grew up seeing a Clovis point and saying that was 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:29.600 made for killing mammoth and clothes points are awesome. Um, 1:04:30.760 --> 1:04:35.400 I am grabbing one. You gotta describe. Clovis points are 1:04:35.760 --> 1:04:40.600 tend to twelve centimeters five or six inches. Um, they're 1:04:40.680 --> 1:04:43.840 beautifully flaked. It took me years to learn how to 1:04:43.880 --> 1:04:46.600 make an accurate Clovis point. We can pass them around. 1:04:46.600 --> 1:04:49.120 I brought huge so you wanted to kill a mammoth 1:04:49.160 --> 1:04:51.320 with it? Well, you can get really small ones too. 1:04:51.320 --> 1:04:54.800 There's some small ones over tiny maoth over here, little 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:59.920 tiny ones. Um, that beautiful and uh, and they've got 1:05:00.000 --> 1:05:02.480 these channels. I want to hold one of the big ones. Yeah, 1:05:02.480 --> 1:05:07.919 here you see another good one. This one's half let's 1:05:09.680 --> 1:05:15.760 go one. No, that's cool. So they've got these channels 1:05:15.760 --> 1:05:18.360 that come from the base, and these channels are really 1:05:18.400 --> 1:05:22.440 difficult to master. Um. It took me a long time 1:05:22.520 --> 1:05:25.040 to learn how to flake these channels off the base 1:05:25.120 --> 1:05:27.479 because when you you hit the point from the base, 1:05:27.520 --> 1:05:30.200 it causes all sorts of bending and the point will break. 1:05:30.840 --> 1:05:33.720 And we know from studies of the archaeological record that 1:05:33.800 --> 1:05:36.800 when you flute these things they break one out of 1:05:36.840 --> 1:05:39.000 four times, one out of five times. Can you explain? 1:05:39.560 --> 1:05:42.560 So fluting? Are these channels, um, that you see at 1:05:42.600 --> 1:05:45.520 the at the base, and so they extend from that 1:05:45.560 --> 1:05:48.680 flat or concave base up and that is that concave 1:05:48.800 --> 1:05:50.880 or convex. I can never get those things. Concave is 1:05:50.920 --> 1:05:53.959 the one where it goes into the Yeah, you're holding 1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:56.040 the point and running along the length of the point. 1:05:56.160 --> 1:05:58.720 They got it all done, and then they thin the 1:05:58.760 --> 1:06:04.800 base by knocking a a channel, knocking your concave channel 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:07.560 channel up each side of the each side, so you're 1:06:07.640 --> 1:06:10.400 risk breaking it twice. And that's where it's anchored on 1:06:10.400 --> 1:06:13.320 a shaft, right. Yeah, And So the big question is, 1:06:13.680 --> 1:06:15.480 you know, it takes years to learn how to make 1:06:15.520 --> 1:06:17.760 a clothes point, and even after you've mastered it, you 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:19.720 risk breaking it one out of four, one out of 1:06:19.720 --> 1:06:23.680 five times. Why would close people, uh take those risks 1:06:23.720 --> 1:06:27.440 when you've got to feed your family and protect your 1:06:27.680 --> 1:06:30.880 your band from predators and all this sort of stuff. 1:06:30.920 --> 1:06:34.640 These are really important weapons for them. And actually, what 1:06:34.720 --> 1:06:39.240 we we discovered was that fluting technology is not for 1:06:39.640 --> 1:06:42.480 better hafting it or attaching it to a spear shaft. 1:06:43.360 --> 1:06:47.600 It's the world's first shock absorber. Do you think so? Well? 1:06:47.600 --> 1:06:51.160 We we showed so um, there's We've been following us 1:06:51.160 --> 1:06:54.720 a little bit. So what what we were able to 1:06:54.720 --> 1:06:57.240 find when we teamed up with a bunch of engineers 1:06:57.240 --> 1:07:00.280 and computer scientists was that when you flute both sides 1:07:00.280 --> 1:07:05.240 of a close point, the base becomes super thin and brittle, 1:07:05.600 --> 1:07:10.320 really thin and brittle. And I start to think to myself, man, 1:07:10.440 --> 1:07:12.760 it's so thin and brittle, like it would just crunch. 1:07:13.080 --> 1:07:14.880 And then I was like, oh, man, maybe that crunching 1:07:15.800 --> 1:07:18.160 is actually the advantage they were going for. So when 1:07:18.160 --> 1:07:21.600 a car crashes into something, the front end crumple's protecting 1:07:21.600 --> 1:07:25.160 the people inside So when you've got a Clovis point 1:07:25.160 --> 1:07:27.360 and I've got one attached to a for shaft, here 1:07:28.120 --> 1:07:31.840 is going seven year eighty miles at prey right, You're 1:07:31.840 --> 1:07:34.760 gonna get a lot of compression stress between that animal 1:07:35.240 --> 1:07:40.680 and the eight foot spear shaft behind it. Now, oftentimes 1:07:40.680 --> 1:07:42.800 the point will snap in half. But if you've got 1:07:42.840 --> 1:07:45.360 that little shock absorber where it crumples a little bit 1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:49.360 and absorbs some of that impact stress um it actually 1:07:49.640 --> 1:07:52.680 will crunch at the base and not break the point 1:07:52.680 --> 1:07:56.280 in half. So if you're Clovis people and you're traveling 1:07:56.320 --> 1:07:59.080 across the continent and exploring new lands that you've never 1:07:59.120 --> 1:08:02.480 been to before, it was left and you know, you 1:08:02.520 --> 1:08:04.680 know you don't want to faster you eat them well, 1:08:04.720 --> 1:08:07.120 you don't want to spend a lot of time remaking 1:08:07.120 --> 1:08:09.680 your weapons all the time. So by integrating these little 1:08:09.720 --> 1:08:12.520 shock absorbers, they figured out a way to basically extend 1:08:12.520 --> 1:08:15.200 the life of the tool that kept them alive. But 1:08:16.000 --> 1:08:19.000 speak about the hafting question, because that was long. It 1:08:19.080 --> 1:08:24.080 was like long held. Well you'd read where people would say, oh, 1:08:24.120 --> 1:08:28.080 it had a spiritual perhaps the spiritual significance, which means 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:31.080 we don't know what it meant marchaeologist always say that 1:08:31.120 --> 1:08:32.680 when they don't know what's going on. And then you 1:08:32.760 --> 1:08:35.360 had people talk about the hafting. But the hafting thing 1:08:35.400 --> 1:08:38.280 is kind of legit because imagine that I'm trying to 1:08:38.320 --> 1:08:41.360 explain as listeners that like take your middle finger and 1:08:41.360 --> 1:08:43.360 your index finger and like put them together right, so 1:08:43.400 --> 1:08:46.800 they're running parallel together, um, and then you slip that 1:08:46.880 --> 1:08:50.320 point between them, and then that in that little groove 1:08:50.360 --> 1:08:53.960 gives your fingers somewhere to rest, and then you lash 1:08:54.080 --> 1:08:56.280 that down with string. I mean, it's plausible that that 1:08:56.360 --> 1:08:59.960 was Like, it's plausible right that that was helpful because 1:09:00.080 --> 1:09:02.519 if it was a rounded surface, your fingers wouldn't have 1:09:02.520 --> 1:09:05.519 anywhere to really grab. So that's one really interesting thing 1:09:05.680 --> 1:09:08.360 about the way archaeology has done today is that we 1:09:08.720 --> 1:09:11.480 study it in basically a way that you just described 1:09:11.760 --> 1:09:17.240 in terms of evolution. And usually when evolutionary UH features 1:09:17.280 --> 1:09:20.719 get adopted, it's because they've got multiple benefits. So shock 1:09:20.760 --> 1:09:23.559 absorption could be one of benefit, hafting could be an 1:09:23.600 --> 1:09:26.599 additional benefit, um and so, and there could be other 1:09:26.600 --> 1:09:29.240 benefits the fluting that we have not yet discovered yet. 1:09:29.400 --> 1:09:31.479 So yeah, there's a lot of work to do. I 1:09:31.479 --> 1:09:33.320 want to I want to get back to what we're on, 1:09:33.360 --> 1:09:34.719 but I want to talk. I want to talk about 1:09:34.720 --> 1:09:38.240 hafting for a second. If you think of your class 1:09:38.240 --> 1:09:40.559 like think of a boy scout badge and it has 1:09:40.560 --> 1:09:43.960 an Indian arrowhead on it, what do you call those 1:09:44.080 --> 1:09:50.720 little lobes at the bottom, like? Yeah? Uh? Like your 1:09:50.760 --> 1:09:53.880 classic arrowhead shape where you have a how do you 1:09:53.920 --> 1:09:56.919 describe that shape? Um? Sort of like a dovetail almost 1:09:57.720 --> 1:10:00.200 you have a little and there's grooves knocked out out 1:10:00.360 --> 1:10:04.439 we call those notches. Yeah. Do you does it seem 1:10:04.479 --> 1:10:07.160 as though that is helpful for hafting. It gives a 1:10:07.200 --> 1:10:09.320 place for the string to bite. It does give a 1:10:09.360 --> 1:10:11.439 straight a place for the string to bite. Um. One 1:10:11.520 --> 1:10:14.719 hypothesis that we're testing now though, is that the notches 1:10:14.840 --> 1:10:17.960 are not meant to keep the arrowhead or the projectile 1:10:18.040 --> 1:10:21.519 point on the shaft. What it actually does is it 1:10:21.520 --> 1:10:27.480 prevents the point from being pushed into the shaft upon impact, 1:10:27.960 --> 1:10:30.680 which would break the shaft. And to be honest, even 1:10:30.680 --> 1:10:32.360 though it takes years to learn how to make any 1:10:32.400 --> 1:10:36.840 sort of stone point um the shafts would probably be 1:10:36.880 --> 1:10:40.200 a lot more valuable to ancient people because it takes 1:10:40.240 --> 1:10:43.240 so much more time and effort to get it straight, 1:10:43.320 --> 1:10:46.640 find the right wood, carve it out, whereas once you 1:10:46.680 --> 1:10:48.200 know how to flint napp the close point, you can 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:52.280 do it in twenty five or forty five minutes real quick. So, 1:10:52.320 --> 1:10:53.920 and they would make them with different stuff, right, is 1:10:53.960 --> 1:10:57.000 there something made out of like camel bone? In mammoth 1:10:57.080 --> 1:11:00.240 ivory we get four shafts and shafts made out of 1:11:00.280 --> 1:11:04.320 wood and all kinds of wood and bone and yeah, everything. 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:06.759 So it depends on where you are in the world. 1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:10.960 So bam bamboo in some cases in East Asia, Do 1:11:11.040 --> 1:11:14.000 they have any kind of like ancient adhesive that they 1:11:14.040 --> 1:11:16.680 would use on them? Yeah, so pine pitch is a 1:11:16.720 --> 1:11:20.679 really good one. Um, hide glue, they would make glue 1:11:20.680 --> 1:11:23.280 from hide. Um. Now in our labs, is this all 1:11:23.360 --> 1:11:28.840 natural materials right here? No, In fact, it's mostly synthetic. Now. 1:11:28.880 --> 1:11:32.080 One reason why we try to uh not use animal 1:11:32.160 --> 1:11:36.200 products when we do experiments is because that the ethics 1:11:36.600 --> 1:11:39.880 in terms of doing experiments with animal products can just 1:11:39.880 --> 1:11:42.640 get a little dicey with oh yeah, but how are 1:11:42.640 --> 1:11:44.840 you supposed to do the work? So what we do 1:11:45.040 --> 1:11:47.040 we sometimes use animal products. I'm not saying we cut 1:11:47.040 --> 1:11:49.280 them out entirely. But there are some experiments where we 1:11:49.320 --> 1:11:52.519 don't need to use animal products, so we'll use like 1:11:52.560 --> 1:11:55.960 a wax twine or a plant based product. If that's 1:11:56.000 --> 1:11:57.439 not if that's not the part you're looking at, If 1:11:57.479 --> 1:12:01.320 not the yeah, exactly. And then also to um, you know, 1:12:01.560 --> 1:12:04.519 pine pitch can be really difficult to produce, and there 1:12:04.560 --> 1:12:06.920 can be variability from one experiment to the next. And 1:12:06.960 --> 1:12:09.360 if we want consistency, we've got to use like a 1:12:09.400 --> 1:12:13.720 thermoplastic that allows us to control that variable when we're 1:12:13.760 --> 1:12:16.160 focused on some other variable. Yeah, but if you're studying 1:12:16.200 --> 1:12:20.599 adhesives and exactly right, that's fair. I'll give you that one. 1:12:20.640 --> 1:12:24.080 That's fair. So what all kind of weapons? Were these 1:12:24.160 --> 1:12:28.719 points used on? Spears? Bows? At laddle? So the at laddle? Um, now, 1:12:28.880 --> 1:12:31.160 let me just preface that by saying, we have never 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:34.920 found a clovis at laddle. Um, so are you into 1:12:34.920 --> 1:12:41.800 a ladle or at lattle? I say, at laddle? See, man, Okay, 1:12:42.080 --> 1:12:44.160 what do you say that? And then I got corrected 1:12:44.200 --> 1:12:48.160 so damn much. I started saying, yeah, I think at ladle. Dude. 1:12:48.160 --> 1:12:49.880 I had a dude tell him. He's like, listen, man, 1:12:50.479 --> 1:12:55.800 it's wrong. And I switched. I trusted them, I think, 1:12:56.800 --> 1:12:58.240 and then he was like, let me tell you about 1:12:58.240 --> 1:13:03.760 this poop night. So, yeah, you never found a we've 1:13:03.800 --> 1:13:06.599 never found clothes at laddle. So we assume that they 1:13:06.720 --> 1:13:11.439 used at laddles with their projectiles. Because these projectiles, you see, 1:13:11.439 --> 1:13:13.920 they're big. Um. If you try to put that on 1:13:14.000 --> 1:13:16.479 an arrow, Um, it might mess up a lot of 1:13:16.479 --> 1:13:18.799 the ballistics. And it'd be hard to have that onto 1:13:18.800 --> 1:13:23.080 an arrow shaft. And you don't see evidence of bows 1:13:23.120 --> 1:13:25.400 and arrows in this continent until like four or five 1:13:25.760 --> 1:13:29.559 years ago. Yeah, even later in some cases. Um. So 1:13:30.320 --> 1:13:32.000 the other issue too is we don't know that they 1:13:32.000 --> 1:13:35.760 were used with an at laddle. Could be hand like 1:13:35.840 --> 1:13:41.080 thrown spears or thrusting spears, handheld thrusting spears. Um. So 1:13:41.120 --> 1:13:43.040 it's just an assumption that they use the at laddle, 1:13:43.120 --> 1:13:46.640 but they may not be projectiles at all. Uh. I 1:13:46.640 --> 1:13:48.439 want to get a couple of things. We're gonna get 1:13:48.439 --> 1:13:50.519 back to this whole mystery whether they killed man. But 1:13:50.560 --> 1:13:52.320 I wanna I want to just explain, folks when I'm 1:13:52.320 --> 1:13:56.640 holding so we have to correct me where I go 1:13:56.680 --> 1:13:59.920 wrong here the very tip the tip of the spears 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:03.280 to speak, we have the stone clobus point and the 1:14:03.320 --> 1:14:06.559 specimen is made out of that is actually an English shirt. Okay, 1:14:06.720 --> 1:14:10.280 So it's made out of churt um and it's hafted 1:14:10.320 --> 1:14:16.800 to with string. It's lashed to a fifteen inch Yeah, 1:14:16.840 --> 1:14:21.160 that's ash ash four shaft for shaft. So it's like 1:14:21.640 --> 1:14:25.040 the at the thickest parts about the thickness of sharpie 1:14:25.760 --> 1:14:30.839 and comes to a point um reminiscent of like a drumstick. Yeah, 1:14:30.880 --> 1:14:34.320 that's a good description. And then you didn't just fling 1:14:34.360 --> 1:14:36.960 this at something. It's like another part. So there's a 1:14:37.280 --> 1:14:39.479 what's the next part? Do you have one here? I 1:14:39.479 --> 1:14:43.880 couldn't fit the seven foot dart into my suitcase, so 1:14:43.920 --> 1:14:48.320 this sockets into a handle or what do you call 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:50.320 that point? We call the We call it a dart, 1:14:50.520 --> 1:14:52.840 and so it would be like a seven foot very 1:14:52.880 --> 1:14:57.960 thin and flexible spear um and so, and in that way, 1:14:58.000 --> 1:15:00.960 what happens is you throw being higher sort of dart 1:15:01.040 --> 1:15:04.760 and foreshaft at the animal. The foresheft sticks, the dart 1:15:04.800 --> 1:15:07.320 falls out, and then you can retrieve your dart and 1:15:07.360 --> 1:15:09.479 put in another force. So this would just sock it 1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:13.040 into that like just held by friction, yes, into you 1:15:13.080 --> 1:15:18.320 know we're in South America. They still use socceted shooting 1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:21.920 out of arrows. They still use socketed points that fall away. 1:15:22.200 --> 1:15:26.120 That's amazing. And then they would tie for their bird points. 1:15:26.800 --> 1:15:31.160 They would leave a tied connection wrapped around because they 1:15:31.240 --> 1:15:34.240 want the arrow to fall away. And then it's the 1:15:34.280 --> 1:15:35.760 bird tries to fly away and he gets hung up 1:15:35.760 --> 1:15:38.200 in the bushes because he's dragging the shaft around on 1:15:38.240 --> 1:15:40.240 the end of a chunk of string. Yeah, that that's 1:15:40.240 --> 1:15:43.920 almost reminiscent. I read an ethnographic account of they tie 1:15:44.360 --> 1:15:48.240 like skin balloons when they're doing whale hunting. Um, so 1:15:48.280 --> 1:15:52.759 that when the projectile hits, you know, the underwater creature 1:15:52.760 --> 1:15:56.080 that you're going after, you can follow it with that balloon. Um. 1:15:56.120 --> 1:15:58.160 So it's not being dragged, but and it absorbs a 1:15:58.200 --> 1:15:59.960 little bit. It's like a little bit of chakrams orbs 1:16:00.120 --> 1:16:02.920 pulls on it. And then that would be if the 1:16:03.040 --> 1:16:06.120 add a laddle thing. Explain what that is. I'm holding 1:16:06.120 --> 1:16:07.800 it right now, but explain what the hard we're talking about. 1:16:07.840 --> 1:16:11.559 We saying is basically a stick with a little nub 1:16:11.720 --> 1:16:14.320 at the end of it, and that little nub very 1:16:14.320 --> 1:16:16.040 similar when you're playing fetched your dog and you got 1:16:16.040 --> 1:16:19.639 one of those tennis ball hookers. Yeah, like a tennis 1:16:19.640 --> 1:16:21.720 ball hooker with a little turkey spur sticking all the 1:16:21.800 --> 1:16:25.679 end of it. That's what it is. Sticks are the same, right. Um, 1:16:25.720 --> 1:16:28.680 it's a basically increases the leverage of your arm. It's 1:16:28.720 --> 1:16:31.960 a lever um. And when you've got just a stick 1:16:32.000 --> 1:16:35.080 with a little nub, you put your spear sort of 1:16:35.400 --> 1:16:38.160 right inserted into that nub, you can launch a dart, 1:16:38.479 --> 1:16:41.519 you know, seventy miles an hour. Are you pretty good 1:16:41.520 --> 1:16:45.640 with one? No? I suck? What's the best person? Okay, 1:16:46.080 --> 1:16:48.200 the best person you've seen with one? How good are 1:16:48.240 --> 1:16:50.719 they at? Just give me like some distance and group size. 1:16:50.920 --> 1:16:53.559 So well, there's a couple of ways to use in 1:16:53.560 --> 1:16:57.240 that attle, so you can do it for accuracy. And 1:16:57.320 --> 1:16:59.680 you know, I've seen and heard cases where people can 1:16:59.720 --> 1:17:02.759 hit a antelope from you know, thirty or forty yards, 1:17:03.200 --> 1:17:05.640 So that's pretty good. Um. The other thing though, that 1:17:05.720 --> 1:17:07.920 you can do with a dart in that laddle is 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:11.760 if there's a large herd a hundred fifty two d away, 1:17:12.040 --> 1:17:15.000 you can just launch your dart into the herd and 1:17:15.040 --> 1:17:18.160 it will go that two hundred meters. Um, you can 1:17:18.240 --> 1:17:23.760 hawk on that far? Really, yeah, have done how far 1:17:23.800 --> 1:17:27.240 can you hawk one? Probably hundred or so. But people 1:17:27.240 --> 1:17:29.719 that are but just hail married it out there into 1:17:29.720 --> 1:17:31.680 a group of stuff just to see what happened. Yeah, 1:17:31.760 --> 1:17:34.840 definitely like that never cry Wolf movie. There's probably ever 1:17:34.960 --> 1:17:37.800 he takes his he takes a jackknife, ties into the 1:17:37.920 --> 1:17:39.439 end of a stick, hawks it into a herd carab 1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:41.720 he walks owners one laying there dead. Never not never 1:17:41.720 --> 1:17:48.680 cry Wolf great movie. Is there different size um like 1:17:48.880 --> 1:17:51.360 projectiles and stuff that you throw out of at little 1:17:51.360 --> 1:17:54.600 because obviously one you could throw farther than another, or 1:17:54.640 --> 1:17:57.519 are they all pretty similar? So you can throw any 1:17:57.600 --> 1:18:01.120 size stone projectile within that laddle, So it can be 1:18:01.160 --> 1:18:04.880 a really teeny tiny arrowhead or a really large Clovis point, 1:18:05.160 --> 1:18:07.400 because what happens is that the dart is so much 1:18:07.400 --> 1:18:09.559 more massive than the point that it sort of balances 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:12.760 out where you can't sort of go is take a 1:18:12.800 --> 1:18:14.880 really large point and put it on a very thin 1:18:15.080 --> 1:18:17.920 arrow shaft, So there you need to have small arrow 1:18:17.920 --> 1:18:24.000 points um midas stone yep um. So go back to 1:18:24.040 --> 1:18:28.320 the different styles of like the different possible styles of 1:18:28.400 --> 1:18:32.640 hunting with one of these things. So there's like accuracy. 1:18:32.920 --> 1:18:36.360 You can go for you know, thirty forty yards try 1:18:36.439 --> 1:18:39.320 to get a lung shot or hard shot and people 1:18:39.360 --> 1:18:41.400 can do it. Um. Actually, if you type in at 1:18:41.439 --> 1:18:43.880 laddle hunting on the YouTube, there's lots of videos of 1:18:44.040 --> 1:18:46.880 people doing it. Um. But you can let me, let 1:18:46.880 --> 1:18:48.599 me throw one at you. That's kind of what I mean. 1:18:49.040 --> 1:18:52.120 Let's say it's big gass man with standing there no, no, 1:18:52.120 --> 1:18:56.000 no bear with me. Yeah, okay, like they're not accustomed 1:18:56.000 --> 1:18:58.920 to people. Let's just let's just go down the fantasy 1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:02.080 thing here. You're early people on a new continent. You're 1:19:02.120 --> 1:19:05.000 dealing with animals, have no idea what the hell you are. Uh. 1:19:06.040 --> 1:19:07.599 They're just like, I don't know, what's this little annoying 1:19:07.640 --> 1:19:10.160 thing walking up to me? And you get up five 1:19:10.200 --> 1:19:14.200 yards away and you're like, right, you're not really relying 1:19:14.240 --> 1:19:16.960 on accuracy. It's not a hail mary. You're just like, 1:19:17.040 --> 1:19:21.080 can I bury this thing in there enough to kill it? Yeah? 1:19:21.120 --> 1:19:22.720 And I'm sure you guys have messed around with that, 1:19:22.880 --> 1:19:25.599 like can you drive the point? Like nothing to do 1:19:25.640 --> 1:19:27.639 with it being far away, nothing to do with being 1:19:27.640 --> 1:19:29.599 really good at it, but just can you take it 1:19:29.680 --> 1:19:33.599 and flap? Like? Could I take it? Right through Phil 1:19:34.439 --> 1:19:37.599 Oh through Phil Oh Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's no problem. 1:19:37.600 --> 1:19:40.640 I pin him right to his chair. Yeah. Um. But 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:43.320 when it comes to a mammoth uh the answers no, 1:19:45.160 --> 1:19:47.880 just flat out yea, just Helmett know that I'm going 1:19:47.920 --> 1:19:49.599 to pin him to his chair, or know that I'm 1:19:49.600 --> 1:19:50.960 going to get it in there enough to do something 1:19:51.000 --> 1:19:53.879 to him, You wouldn't be able to do anything to him, probably, Yeah, 1:19:53.960 --> 1:19:56.679 And I can explain why, all right. I don't buy 1:19:56.680 --> 1:20:03.720 it for one second. Have heard the explanation even, all right, 1:20:03.800 --> 1:20:08.120 tell me why? All right? So ah, we did ballistics 1:20:08.160 --> 1:20:12.120 experiments in our lab at Kent State where instead of 1:20:12.680 --> 1:20:16.320 hucking it in a mammoth because we couldn't because well, 1:20:16.400 --> 1:20:20.439 yeah it's hard to find mammoths, right, you got to 1:20:20.479 --> 1:20:25.320 grow them. Yeah, they're trying, they're trying. It will be 1:20:25.360 --> 1:20:28.680 helpful with you guys. Yeah, you should order the first couple. Well, 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:32.960 I do have a proposal for you when we're done 1:20:32.960 --> 1:20:37.360 talking about mammoth um. But so, what we've been doing 1:20:37.400 --> 1:20:39.639 in our ballistics lab is we end up shooting into 1:20:39.640 --> 1:20:42.960 blocks of clay, and we've done lots of engineering experiments 1:20:43.000 --> 1:20:47.520 looking at the how clay compares to to meet and flesh. 1:20:47.600 --> 1:20:49.880 And it's not just us. There's been knife makers and 1:20:49.880 --> 1:20:52.080 all sorts of other people who have looked to see 1:20:52.080 --> 1:20:54.760 how does clay compare? What's that other ship? They used 1:20:54.760 --> 1:20:58.400 the ballistic gel, ballistics gel. We've also done experiments of that. 1:20:58.520 --> 1:21:02.960 It's terrible ballistics. Gail. What about what they always do 1:21:03.000 --> 1:21:05.719 on like TV shows, like when they're testing out swords 1:21:05.760 --> 1:21:11.640 and ship like using using pigs. Um, Yeah, so, I 1:21:11.680 --> 1:21:15.400 mean you can use carcasses. Uh. The issue though then 1:21:15.680 --> 1:21:19.800 is how does that sort of compare? Yeah? Um, so 1:21:19.920 --> 1:21:23.519 we were shooting into blocks of clay. Now, these blocks 1:21:23.520 --> 1:21:27.960 of clay, while they compare to MEET, when they are 1:21:28.040 --> 1:21:32.400 different than meet, they're less resistant, so less resistant. They 1:21:32.439 --> 1:21:34.680 also don't understand what that means. So that means if 1:21:34.760 --> 1:21:40.120 you were to fire into meat into clay, the projectile 1:21:40.120 --> 1:21:43.240 going into clay usually would be similar to meet in 1:21:43.360 --> 1:21:46.439 terms of penetration depth, but on occasion it would be 1:21:46.520 --> 1:21:50.040 less so or no, no, it would be more I'm sorry, 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:53.040 on occasion will penetrate clay better than it will penetrate 1:21:53.040 --> 1:21:56.160 clay better than meat. All right, so we're firing into 1:21:56.240 --> 1:22:00.880 a less resistant substrate, but are giving it the benefits 1:22:01.000 --> 1:22:03.000 we're giving it the benefit of the doubt. And also 1:22:03.120 --> 1:22:05.920 our clay, even though it compares to meat, doesn't have 1:22:05.960 --> 1:22:08.960 hair and it doesn't have hide. And so when you 1:22:08.960 --> 1:22:12.599 look at mammoths, mammoths can have ten to twelve centimeters 1:22:12.640 --> 1:22:16.160 of hair that would slow down your projectile, and their 1:22:16.240 --> 1:22:21.559 hides can be you know, two or three centimeters thick um. 1:22:21.640 --> 1:22:24.840 So that's on top of any meat that you'd have 1:22:24.880 --> 1:22:28.639 to get through, right, and we're firing with our spot 1:22:28.640 --> 1:22:31.719 hog hooter shooter from a meter away into these blocks 1:22:31.720 --> 1:22:33.559 of clay, so kind of like what you described, just 1:22:33.600 --> 1:22:37.160 going up and hawking it into the animal. There's no wind, 1:22:37.400 --> 1:22:40.040 there's no rain um that could sort of cause the 1:22:40.040 --> 1:22:42.559 projectile to skew and hit it at an angle, which 1:22:42.560 --> 1:22:46.200 would reduce penetration. More so, we're given these Clovis points 1:22:46.240 --> 1:22:49.679 that we're firing into the clay the best possible chance 1:22:49.720 --> 1:22:54.400 to penetrate as deep as they can. On average, Clovis 1:22:54.479 --> 1:23:00.280 points penetrate the clay blocks eighteen centimeters, so that much 1:23:01.080 --> 1:23:04.200 that is that is not deep at all. And when 1:23:04.200 --> 1:23:09.559 we compare what eighteen centimeters is not only to mammoths 1:23:09.600 --> 1:23:13.720 but to modern elephants, you are not reaching lungs, you're 1:23:13.760 --> 1:23:16.120 not reaching the heart, you're not reaching the liver. And 1:23:16.120 --> 1:23:20.040 this also assumes that you're making it between that cage 1:23:20.240 --> 1:23:25.600 of ribs, which for mammoths is just like a fortress. Um. 1:23:25.640 --> 1:23:29.160 So are you familiar with the claim that at the 1:23:29.200 --> 1:23:32.559 Black Water draw site they found a mammoth skull with 1:23:32.600 --> 1:23:36.000 a Clovis point in its eye socket? I am not 1:23:36.040 --> 1:23:38.519 aware of that. Time. People think it's like someone put 1:23:38.560 --> 1:23:40.840 it there because I thought would be funny. What some 1:23:40.880 --> 1:23:46.400 people think it's legit? Is it funny? Well, not funny. 1:23:46.439 --> 1:23:49.200 I mean that that that that there was like, okay, 1:23:49.280 --> 1:23:51.240 let me put it a different way. Some people think 1:23:51.400 --> 1:23:54.559 that I guess there's some people that were made that claim, 1:23:55.080 --> 1:23:57.719 and other people pointed out that there's probably some human, 1:23:57.840 --> 1:24:02.839 some modern human manipulation of the stuff where some huckster. 1:24:04.240 --> 1:24:06.960 Right there are hucksters and it was like coming to 1:24:07.040 --> 1:24:09.760 my special my you know what I mean, And you like, 1:24:10.000 --> 1:24:12.280 wouldn't be cool if you know I stuck it in 1:24:12.320 --> 1:24:16.200 there and showed tourists or it was like legitimately in there, 1:24:16.800 --> 1:24:19.600 and I think I think it was. It was described 1:24:19.640 --> 1:24:23.639 as being like evidence of and then later was widely 1:24:23.680 --> 1:24:26.040 discredited as being no one knows how that thing got 1:24:26.120 --> 1:24:29.680 net head, but there's no like, no one was ever 1:24:29.720 --> 1:24:31.559 able to analyze it. It might just be like a 1:24:31.600 --> 1:24:34.679 guy was screwing around. I'm not familiar with that claim, 1:24:35.000 --> 1:24:36.960 but which makes me think it's probably not true. Yeah, 1:24:37.000 --> 1:24:41.160 it's probably not true. That's all right. But uh so, 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:43.240 you know, when it comes to the fact that we 1:24:43.360 --> 1:24:47.800 also know that Clovis points from analysis called microware, which 1:24:47.840 --> 1:24:50.240 is where you can take a scanning electron microscope and 1:24:50.240 --> 1:24:52.679 we look at the polishes and striations that are left 1:24:52.720 --> 1:24:55.639 on the artifacts themselves to see how they were used. 1:24:55.680 --> 1:24:58.599 We know Clovis points were used as knives, so they 1:24:58.640 --> 1:25:02.720 weren't just projectile weapons. They were multi use tools for 1:25:02.800 --> 1:25:05.920 processing animals as well. So when we find closed points 1:25:05.920 --> 1:25:09.200 in association with mammoth skeletons, and that's very rare, it's 1:25:09.200 --> 1:25:12.479 only been done, you know, fourteen times in the history 1:25:12.479 --> 1:25:14.320 of archaeology. Can you walk me through a couple of 1:25:14.320 --> 1:25:19.240 the notable ones, Yeah, like, what like what was the relationship? Right? Yeah, 1:25:19.320 --> 1:25:23.120 so we'll find, Um, there's eight Clovis points found in 1:25:23.160 --> 1:25:27.080 the Naco mammoth um down in the southwest. Um, there's 1:25:27.120 --> 1:25:30.280 only three Clovis points kind of around the area of 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:34.640 the Colby mammoth in Wyoming. Um, let's see some of 1:25:34.680 --> 1:25:38.320 the other ones and neither not like the fulsome point 1:25:38.560 --> 1:25:40.920 laying in the ribs like thes like just in association, 1:25:40.960 --> 1:25:44.000 in association with but not like wedged into something. And 1:25:44.040 --> 1:25:47.400 we've never found a Clovis point tip in the bone 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:52.400 of a mammoth, whereas we found fulsome uh points embedded 1:25:52.400 --> 1:25:55.759 in bison bone before and all other types of stuff. 1:25:55.760 --> 1:25:58.679 So no, just to just to make sure everybody's clear, 1:25:59.600 --> 1:26:02.920 no one has ever recovered a mammoth bone they had 1:26:02.960 --> 1:26:06.439 like healed around or had like when it was fresh 1:26:06.479 --> 1:26:12.040 bone been impaled by struck by embedded in That is correct, 1:26:12.120 --> 1:26:15.760 never never. So these Clovis points that we find in 1:26:15.800 --> 1:26:21.679 association with mammoths, ah, could very plausibly be just people 1:26:21.760 --> 1:26:26.400 scavenging already dead ones. Have you found humans with Clovis 1:26:26.439 --> 1:26:30.559 points in the bones? No, because, um, we only have 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:35.120 one Clovis burial that's ever been found and it's right 1:26:35.200 --> 1:26:39.400 near here. Yeah, and zick One, that's right. I mean, 1:26:39.439 --> 1:26:43.600 like I forgot I was in Montana. You could you 1:26:43.600 --> 1:26:45.920 could be at the anzick One site and uh it's 1:26:45.920 --> 1:26:47.400 a great name for a boy. I think it sounds 1:26:47.400 --> 1:26:51.120 like a Steven Spielberg movie and Zick one. But he 1:26:51.160 --> 1:26:55.240 was a little boy buried uh over by Wilson with 1:26:55.320 --> 1:26:59.280 a bunch of Clovis points. Yeah, you just picture our 1:26:59.360 --> 1:27:03.680 CUTEI looked all wrapped up in those mammothides that his 1:27:03.800 --> 1:27:11.719 daddy killed. Right. Can we talk about the blitz Creek 1:27:11.800 --> 1:27:15.640 hypothesis real quick? Yeah? Right? And like so where that 1:27:15.720 --> 1:27:22.040 name comes from? Right, It's like attacking very very fast, uh, 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:26.760 overwhelming larger odds by moving really fast, faster than your 1:27:26.800 --> 1:27:28.559 opponents are gonna roll the whole place up in a 1:27:28.600 --> 1:27:35.200 thousand years? Um, how did people get to a new continent, Stephen? 1:27:36.200 --> 1:27:40.120 Did they get there really really fast? Did they get 1:27:40.160 --> 1:27:44.240 to new places really fast? In the book Sapiens, he 1:27:44.360 --> 1:27:50.120 talks about if I also want to say, I'm gonna 1:27:50.680 --> 1:27:53.040 over here real quick? Well, no, okay, go ahead, and 1:27:53.040 --> 1:27:56.639 I'm gonna jump example from Sapiens, I think he says 1:27:56.640 --> 1:28:01.240 in Sapiens, the Oregon company spot Hog makes you know, like, uh, 1:28:01.600 --> 1:28:05.679 fancy tough archery sites is there is there big deal? 1:28:06.040 --> 1:28:08.840 But they came out with that hooter shooter forever ago 1:28:09.439 --> 1:28:12.679 and it's it's a highly technical piece of equipment designed 1:28:12.680 --> 1:28:20.360 around um doing what every archery hunter, probably for thousands 1:28:20.400 --> 1:28:22.400 of years has always wanted to do, which is know 1:28:23.000 --> 1:28:27.520 that the bow is screwing up and it's not you, right, um. 1:28:27.680 --> 1:28:30.800 And I've known those folks at spot Hog for a 1:28:30.800 --> 1:28:36.200 really long time. Everybody's super nice, great people. But had 1:28:36.240 --> 1:28:38.280 they lead with the fact they had a hooter shooter 1:28:38.320 --> 1:28:42.200 at can't State and projectile ab, it would have been, Yeah, 1:28:43.320 --> 1:28:46.160 I'd be lead with that. For this selling stuff is cool, 1:28:46.200 --> 1:28:51.280 but that's way cool. I want to first hardly recommend 1:28:52.000 --> 1:28:54.960 the book Sapiens. It's got some sloppy mistakes in it, 1:28:55.360 --> 1:29:01.040 like what, um, they misspelled sapiens like a no, no, 1:29:01.439 --> 1:29:04.200 Just like he'll like make some examples like, for instance, 1:29:04.240 --> 1:29:07.880 if a if a blank animal were to like do 1:29:07.960 --> 1:29:09.840 this to a blank animal and be like animals that 1:29:09.880 --> 1:29:11.760 don't coexist on the same continent, just like kind of 1:29:11.920 --> 1:29:15.760 like a little lazy comparisons that they're annoying if you 1:29:15.880 --> 1:29:17.960 catch them. But I mean it's you know, it's a 1:29:18.080 --> 1:29:22.640 highly regarded book. He gets into like the human diaspora 1:29:23.200 --> 1:29:26.760 out of Africa seventy years ago and for a long 1:29:26.800 --> 1:29:28.439 time he talks about, which is kind of cool, Like 1:29:28.479 --> 1:29:30.680 if you go to an area and you'd be like, oh, 1:29:30.720 --> 1:29:33.360 there's some mule deer. Oh there's some white tailed deer 1:29:33.880 --> 1:29:36.960 that UM at various times around the world, you have 1:29:37.080 --> 1:29:40.960 different humans coexisting to be like, oh there's one kind 1:29:41.000 --> 1:29:42.599 of them. Oh, there's not a kind of them. They 1:29:42.600 --> 1:29:46.240 seem really similar with they're kind of a little bit different, right, UM. 1:29:46.280 --> 1:29:50.120 But he focuses in on Homo sapiens and he says, 1:29:50.200 --> 1:29:56.160 if a forager band split once every forty years. Uh. 1:29:56.200 --> 1:29:59.719 Prior to this, he gets into like what probably hunter 1:30:00.000 --> 1:30:02.640 other bands? How big as a hunter gatherer band, Like, 1:30:02.800 --> 1:30:05.880 just based on various pieces of evidence, is like like 1:30:06.000 --> 1:30:08.240 roughly how many people lived in these hunter gatherer bands 1:30:08.240 --> 1:30:11.800 that roamed around and then how did they like, what 1:30:11.800 --> 1:30:14.400 were their group interactions and group dynamics and it's all 1:30:14.400 --> 1:30:16.719 a huge question mark. But he just kind of offers 1:30:16.720 --> 1:30:20.040 some like perspectives on how to understand this. UM there's 1:30:20.080 --> 1:30:22.160 kind of this funny thing that happens to uh, and 1:30:22.160 --> 1:30:26.320 he looks at all these examples from from UM human societies. 1:30:26.920 --> 1:30:29.960 A hundred people becomes a very different if you imagine 1:30:29.960 --> 1:30:33.160 a group of people as like an organism, say, uh, 1:30:33.200 --> 1:30:35.840 the organism changes dramatically at a hundred people, and he 1:30:35.880 --> 1:30:38.000 gets into a lot of stuff even at like organizations, 1:30:38.520 --> 1:30:42.040 professional organizations, um military units, all these kinds of examples, 1:30:42.080 --> 1:30:46.400 Like like sub one d people, every individual is able 1:30:46.439 --> 1:30:50.600 to know. Like at sub one d people, every individual 1:30:50.680 --> 1:30:53.240 is able to know pretty much the history of everyone else. 1:30:53.479 --> 1:30:55.240 You can know their name, You'll be able to put 1:30:55.280 --> 1:30:58.719 together their family tree, you like remember grievances and gripes. 1:30:59.040 --> 1:31:00.600 You get over a hundred peop when you start to 1:31:00.680 --> 1:31:03.280 enter into sort of like a different territory, And it 1:31:03.360 --> 1:31:05.439 seems that a lot of these early groups he like, 1:31:05.560 --> 1:31:09.120 he has this spirited argument that probably around a hundred 1:31:09.160 --> 1:31:12.280 people or less, probably not more would survive as these 1:31:12.680 --> 1:31:16.040 roaming bands of hunter gatherers that just stayed on the 1:31:16.040 --> 1:31:19.599 move all the time, Which leads to this quote which 1:31:19.600 --> 1:31:24.120 I highlighted. If a forager band split once every forty years, 1:31:24.920 --> 1:31:29.400 and it's splinter group migrated to a new territory sixty 1:31:29.439 --> 1:31:34.160 miles to the east, the distance from East Africa to 1:31:34.400 --> 1:31:38.040 China would have been covered in about ten thousand years. 1:31:40.880 --> 1:31:44.360 So that's slow, but it's like it depends on your perspective. 1:31:46.600 --> 1:31:50.360 It's it's like it's slow but fast, I mean East 1:31:50.400 --> 1:31:53.640 Africa to China, just as like people filling up the 1:31:53.720 --> 1:31:57.439 landscape without a thought, without being propelled by the idea 1:31:57.439 --> 1:32:01.960 that you're supposed to fill up the landscape. Uh. I mean, 1:32:01.960 --> 1:32:04.240 obviously you're familiar with this, which is why I asked 1:32:04.240 --> 1:32:06.640 the question. Right. It's like, in order for there to 1:32:06.680 --> 1:32:11.800 be new there, there brings to mind like this this 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:15.680 picture of like I fell out of a balloon and 1:32:15.800 --> 1:32:18.599 landed in this landscape where nothing had seen me before, 1:32:18.960 --> 1:32:25.760 my kind before. Whereas that sixty miles um certainly around here, 1:32:27.120 --> 1:32:28.920 you know, we have a bunch of snow on the 1:32:28.960 --> 1:32:35.040 ground right here. You move sixty miles in three different directions, 1:32:35.040 --> 1:32:38.200 you're gonna be there's some stuff that looks green around 1:32:38.240 --> 1:32:40.920 here already. Uh. And it's snow free, right. You can 1:32:41.280 --> 1:32:45.840 really change your landscape and and what's around and abundant there. 1:32:45.920 --> 1:32:48.759 But we know that all these animals have these big, 1:32:48.880 --> 1:32:52.840 overlapping territories that migration roots. They do a lot of 1:32:52.880 --> 1:32:56.280 moving to. So this idea of there being like a 1:32:56.400 --> 1:33:00.479 new encounter constantly unannounced, this sort of a constantly announced 1:33:00.560 --> 1:33:05.400 present surprise. We're humans, right, is very hard for me, 1:33:05.640 --> 1:33:08.400 Like the knowledge of humans may well have just travels 1:33:08.400 --> 1:33:12.360 sort of at the outer edge of humans, right right, 1:33:12.479 --> 1:33:14.800 And then I think, like the hunted animals are like 1:33:15.080 --> 1:33:18.800 a man, those slow bipedal things, or they we move 1:33:18.840 --> 1:33:22.160 a little bit. A few days later they that's a 1:33:22.160 --> 1:33:23.920 great point, man, that it wasn't like some dude. It 1:33:24.000 --> 1:33:28.080 is like I'm gonna sneak over a thousand miles past 1:33:28.120 --> 1:33:33.479 where anybody's ever been and get past any awareness of 1:33:33.520 --> 1:33:37.559 who I am. It's just it's hard. But you read 1:33:37.600 --> 1:33:40.800 it and you're like and then you're like, wait, do 1:33:40.800 --> 1:33:42.960 you think you can publish that in the paper called 1:33:42.960 --> 1:33:47.240 the Callahan principle? Yeah, well it's I think what you're 1:33:47.240 --> 1:33:49.719 getting at right with litz Creek is it assumes animals 1:33:49.720 --> 1:33:53.639 are also real dumb, and that animals don't learn. And 1:33:53.760 --> 1:33:55.640 you know, you might get away with walking up to 1:33:55.880 --> 1:34:00.240 a species that's never seen you before once, but his 1:34:00.280 --> 1:34:03.439 buddies are watching and they're gonna see what you did, um, 1:34:03.479 --> 1:34:06.439 and they're gonna learn. And so this idea that just 1:34:06.479 --> 1:34:08.840 because we were new, we could just walk up and 1:34:08.920 --> 1:34:11.360 sort of club animals on the head and take them out. 1:34:11.400 --> 1:34:13.840 Blitz Creek style doesn't make any sense or even the 1:34:13.960 --> 1:34:16.599 at laddle when you you compare it to like close 1:34:16.680 --> 1:34:21.479 range hunting tactics that we have now, right, um, especially 1:34:21.479 --> 1:34:26.240 to huck something two. That's a big body movement, right, 1:34:26.280 --> 1:34:28.519 I imagine there's a couple of big steps in there. 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:33.080 You're really arc in your arm. You're a happy Gilmore style, 1:34:33.280 --> 1:34:38.479 yeah Gilmore a stylary right, versus like you're not, um, 1:34:38.720 --> 1:34:44.320 crouched down semi sneak, drawing your bow back, locking it in. 1:34:45.320 --> 1:34:47.760 You know, there's just like some some big movements, it's 1:34:47.760 --> 1:34:52.840 a it's a more probably less uh a little more 1:34:52.880 --> 1:34:58.760 brutal versus uh. You know. Another thing I read, it's 1:34:59.280 --> 1:35:01.920 like another ant ye Blitz Creek hypothesis. Thing I've read 1:35:03.320 --> 1:35:07.040 is that, um, there's no remains of I don't think 1:35:07.080 --> 1:35:10.759 there's even a butcher site of like a giant ground slot. 1:35:11.080 --> 1:35:13.600 Every time you're reading about the place has seen extinctions, 1:35:13.600 --> 1:35:15.400 they always love to talk about the giant ground slot 1:35:15.400 --> 1:35:18.200 because what a crazy aest animal, right, how are they 1:35:18.240 --> 1:35:21.640 like oh four ft taller? You know, people love to 1:35:21.680 --> 1:35:24.320 bring up like mammoths and right, It's like when a 1:35:24.360 --> 1:35:26.880 when a writer, when some journalists is going to do 1:35:26.920 --> 1:35:29.439 a list of animals, and they know they're gonna start 1:35:29.479 --> 1:35:32.200 with mammoth. The second one is probably the giant ground 1:35:32.200 --> 1:35:37.360 slot nine ft long, five pounds. Yeah, like, man, I'm 1:35:37.360 --> 1:35:42.280 a stand uh giant ground sloss. Every journalist does it. 1:35:43.360 --> 1:35:47.439 I was reading that there's no butcher site, not only 1:35:47.520 --> 1:35:51.840 no like, not only no bone stone tools stuck in 1:35:51.880 --> 1:35:54.880 his bone, not even a butcher site from a giant 1:35:54.920 --> 1:35:57.599 ground SLOs. So the only animals that we've got clovis 1:35:57.680 --> 1:36:06.120 artifacts in association with our mammos masodon one camel, one camel, 1:36:06.280 --> 1:36:12.960 one camel, one horse, and I believe that's it. But 1:36:13.000 --> 1:36:17.880 we have human bones associated with with more animals. But 1:36:18.000 --> 1:36:20.519 it could be like overlaps for like burial sites, right, 1:36:21.360 --> 1:36:23.439 because I know that we have like some cave bears 1:36:23.880 --> 1:36:28.960 and some human skulls in close proximity. Not in North America, 1:36:29.040 --> 1:36:33.000 South America. I've never heard of that. I think it 1:36:33.080 --> 1:36:35.040 was two years ago there or something that came out 1:36:35.200 --> 1:36:40.559 that was pretty underwater cave. Oh so in Mexico. Yeah, 1:36:40.600 --> 1:36:43.360 there is a human skull, yes, and so maybe there 1:36:43.439 --> 1:36:48.320 was over the head yeah, um so yeah when that 1:36:48.400 --> 1:36:50.559 was yeah, I believe that was in Mexico, but it 1:36:50.680 --> 1:36:55.680 was a very confused stratigraphy, like that thing had been 1:36:55.680 --> 1:36:59.400 collected shipped for a long time. Yeah, imagine slimming down 1:36:59.439 --> 1:37:01.760 there and there's a lay school there. But that's an 1:37:01.800 --> 1:37:05.920 insane I mean, we're basing a lot off of very 1:37:06.000 --> 1:37:10.160 few sites that we know for sure humans actually carved 1:37:10.280 --> 1:37:14.160 on just a handful of creators. If we were regularly 1:37:14.240 --> 1:37:18.280 hunting these mega mammals, you know, hundreds hundreds of millions 1:37:18.280 --> 1:37:21.080 of these specimens, right, we'd be finding Clovis points in 1:37:21.080 --> 1:37:24.080 association with these things all over the place. But they're 1:37:24.160 --> 1:37:27.519 only but you're not finding clothes like Okay, look at this. 1:37:28.000 --> 1:37:30.200 If you're going by that piece of evidence, then we'd 1:37:30.200 --> 1:37:31.960 have to say there weren't any Clovis hunters because we've 1:37:31.960 --> 1:37:36.000 only found one. Well, you have the Anzick one boy, 1:37:36.240 --> 1:37:38.040 So if you're gonna go by what you found, then 1:37:38.040 --> 1:37:39.559 we have to say that there weren't any people think 1:37:39.720 --> 1:37:43.120 we haven't found them, Well, but we've got their artifacts. Yeah, 1:37:43.160 --> 1:37:47.840 but we've got stone. Last stone lasts a long time. 1:37:49.080 --> 1:37:53.800 No mega mammal bones, do I see what you're saying, 1:37:53.840 --> 1:37:57.559 But you see what I'm saying. And zigone and zig one, 1:37:57.640 --> 1:38:00.599 you could easily make the jump and say, oh, these 1:38:00.600 --> 1:38:03.400 are ceremonial points that weren't actually used for anything. The 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:06.120 other issue too with Clovis burials is it is a 1:38:06.200 --> 1:38:09.960 mystery as to why we only have one. Like, we 1:38:10.080 --> 1:38:13.120 don't like, where are these Clovis bones, But maybe they 1:38:13.160 --> 1:38:14.840 buried them on cin They didn't bury, but they did, 1:38:14.880 --> 1:38:17.439 like the planes tribes and put them on scaffold. That's possible. 1:38:17.600 --> 1:38:20.120 So there's something behavioral with Clovis that we just don't 1:38:20.160 --> 1:38:22.840 know what's going on. Why Because we have hundreds of 1:38:22.840 --> 1:38:27.639 Neanderthal skeletons from three hundred thousand to fifty thousand years ago, 1:38:27.840 --> 1:38:30.720 Clovis is only thirteen thousand years ago, and we only 1:38:30.720 --> 1:38:33.519 have one and it's an infant. So what Clovised people 1:38:33.560 --> 1:38:36.320 are doing with their burials or with their you know, 1:38:36.360 --> 1:38:39.040 deceased relatives, we have no idea. That's interesting man, Like 1:38:39.080 --> 1:38:41.960 they weren't intering them in caves. No, And what's really 1:38:42.000 --> 1:38:45.479 strange about Clovis too is that they do not seem 1:38:45.520 --> 1:38:48.920 to utilize rock shelters or caves at all. Every other 1:38:49.000 --> 1:38:52.519 hunter gatherer group around the world passed and present, going 1:38:52.560 --> 1:38:56.679 back two million years to you know, modern hunter gatherers 1:38:57.040 --> 1:39:01.559 use caves and rock shelters. There are no Clovis rock 1:39:01.600 --> 1:39:05.320 shelter sites or cave sites. What's the speculation like hide shelters, 1:39:05.400 --> 1:39:09.000 big spiders. I don't know. Maybe it could be some 1:39:09.040 --> 1:39:12.280 sort of taboo, some cultural thing again ritual maybe rituals 1:39:12.320 --> 1:39:18.000 because like the people, uh, the Europeans that used the 1:39:18.080 --> 1:39:22.000 similar tech tool technology and associated with a similar suite 1:39:22.000 --> 1:39:25.280 of animals, they even call them like caveman. Oh yeah, 1:39:25.360 --> 1:39:27.280 I'm always correcting my kids because they want to call 1:39:27.840 --> 1:39:30.120 like they know about me being really interested in ice 1:39:30.240 --> 1:39:32.439 h hunters, and they're always calling them caveman. And I'm like, 1:39:32.479 --> 1:39:35.639 on the contrary, anthropologists think that they weren't real big 1:39:35.680 --> 1:39:38.400 into caves. They didn't hang out in caves. No, they 1:39:38.439 --> 1:39:40.639 did in Europe, and after what I'm saying here here, 1:39:40.640 --> 1:39:43.880 they didn't exact I've only just read that that they 1:39:43.880 --> 1:39:45.519 didn't like going and not that they didn't like We 1:39:45.520 --> 1:39:47.519 don't know what they thought of them, but that you 1:39:47.560 --> 1:39:50.479 don't find their bones and tools and stuff in rock 1:39:50.720 --> 1:39:53.360 rock led shelters. Not place the scene now, once we 1:39:53.360 --> 1:39:54.880 get into the hole of the the scene after ten tho 1:39:55.160 --> 1:39:58.479 years ago, we see people in North America using caves 1:39:58.520 --> 1:40:01.240 and rock shelters all the time. So it's just for 1:40:01.280 --> 1:40:04.760 whatever reason that blip of Clovis for about five to 1:40:04.840 --> 1:40:08.240 six hundred to seven hundred years, caves are just sort 1:40:08.280 --> 1:40:11.840 of off the real estate market. I don't know why. 1:40:12.400 --> 1:40:16.280 Uh you said that someone could make one of them. Well, 1:40:16.360 --> 1:40:18.120 let me ask that question first. So you think of 1:40:18.160 --> 1:40:19.519 what I'm at, what I should be holding right now 1:40:19.560 --> 1:40:26.760 as a knife, Yes, that's just it. So they could 1:40:26.840 --> 1:40:30.920 be used for hunting weaponry and projectile technology as well, 1:40:30.960 --> 1:40:35.040 But for smaller things like deer elk um, they just 1:40:35.080 --> 1:40:38.439 don't They wouldn't penetrate deep enough to do anything to mammoth. 1:40:38.640 --> 1:40:41.240 So I think they could be used as hunting weapons. 1:40:41.360 --> 1:40:44.479 And look, it's possible that Clovis folks did occasionally take 1:40:44.479 --> 1:40:46.960 down to mammoth. I'm not saying they never hunted mammoth ever, 1:40:47.840 --> 1:40:52.120 But the question is did they hunt these things to extinction? 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:55.559 And is the Clovis point some sort of stone age 1:40:55.560 --> 1:40:58.120 bazooka that allowed them to do that with ease? And 1:40:58.120 --> 1:41:00.600 and the answer is no. The of this point just 1:41:00.720 --> 1:41:03.479 isn't this a K forty seven where you could just 1:41:03.560 --> 1:41:06.120 mote on mammoths. And but that's the impression that archaeologist 1:41:06.120 --> 1:41:09.040 has published for for decades. If they couldn't kill them 1:41:09.040 --> 1:41:11.360 with Clovis points, do they have any other creative solutions 1:41:11.360 --> 1:41:13.599 to kill the mammoth? Well, so this is it. This 1:41:13.680 --> 1:41:17.160 is where the faults of the archaeological record really come 1:41:17.200 --> 1:41:20.320 into play. Like maybe they use some sort of poison 1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:23.920 that has not preserved on Clovis points you know today, 1:41:23.960 --> 1:41:25.799 So maybe they use some sort of poison to takedown 1:41:25.800 --> 1:41:32.519 mammoths drive from what I don't know any well. And 1:41:32.560 --> 1:41:35.160 the issue too with poison is because Clovised people were 1:41:35.360 --> 1:41:38.360 relatively new to the landscape, they would have needed to 1:41:38.439 --> 1:41:41.879 learn which plants to to utilize to make those poisons 1:41:41.920 --> 1:41:45.000 and what quantities. So I find the idea that they 1:41:45.040 --> 1:41:50.320 use poison um not very convincing. But that's that's possible, 1:41:50.360 --> 1:41:52.559 and that's something we can't falsify at this point. What 1:41:52.680 --> 1:41:55.599 about just like driving them off cliffs and then going 1:41:55.640 --> 1:41:58.160 to the bottom of that cliff and then dispatching them 1:41:58.200 --> 1:42:01.080 with like the Clovis points. So we do have bison 1:42:01.200 --> 1:42:04.760 jumps in later time periods um where people would drive 1:42:04.800 --> 1:42:07.519 bison off the cliffs and then you know, they butcher 1:42:07.600 --> 1:42:10.040 the top layer and then there's like two or three 1:42:10.040 --> 1:42:14.240 bison deep where they just couldn't get to them. Because yeah, um, 1:42:14.280 --> 1:42:18.120 we've never found a mammoth jump um, and I feel 1:42:18.160 --> 1:42:21.640 like we'd find that if that existed at this point. Um. 1:42:21.680 --> 1:42:25.560 So there's all those great dioramas, aren't there, dioramas of 1:42:25.640 --> 1:42:30.160 people with like sticks pushing and we were kids a 1:42:30.200 --> 1:42:32.040 book we used to there's a great picture in one 1:42:32.040 --> 1:42:33.720 of our books, and they had gotten one in a 1:42:33.800 --> 1:42:38.000 pit trap and we're hurling giant rocks down on it. 1:42:38.200 --> 1:42:43.160 Well the first skirts. So that's a possibility, right, you 1:42:43.240 --> 1:42:46.200 drive a mammoth into an arroyo and and it gets 1:42:46.200 --> 1:42:49.519 stuck like or maybe it's already sick or dying so 1:42:49.600 --> 1:42:54.000 close people or whatever you had. But like this idea 1:42:54.040 --> 1:42:56.960 that Clovis folks, that is what they did and that's 1:42:56.960 --> 1:43:00.960 who they were, they were mammoth hunters, just isn't supported. Um, 1:43:01.000 --> 1:43:04.599 So that would just be like saying, you know, well, 1:43:04.600 --> 1:43:06.120 actually I can't come up with an analogy, so you 1:43:06.120 --> 1:43:08.479 can cut this part. Let me let me tell you 1:43:08.479 --> 1:43:09.760 about have you have you ever heard of the book 1:43:09.800 --> 1:43:13.719 The Oregon Trail. I played the dos game in the nineties. 1:43:14.560 --> 1:43:17.120 There's a historian. There's a guy that wrote at the 1:43:17.160 --> 1:43:20.479 time the definitive History of the French and Indian War. 1:43:20.640 --> 1:43:24.200 And his name was Francis Parkman, and he had a 1:43:24.280 --> 1:43:25.960 long problem. I can't hemera what it was. And his 1:43:26.040 --> 1:43:27.640 doctor said, you needed you know what they used to 1:43:27.640 --> 1:43:29.200 send everybody. What the hell do you have when they 1:43:29.240 --> 1:43:36.120 send you? Right? Was consumption? Was TV? Right? Yeah, They're like, 1:43:36.160 --> 1:43:38.320 you gotta go out to the dry climates, you know, 1:43:38.400 --> 1:43:41.840 to survive. It was like a big thing. Uh. A 1:43:41.880 --> 1:43:44.320 woman would cop blood into a handkerchief. Yeah. The doctor 1:43:44.560 --> 1:43:50.240 like town exactly right, exactly. Uh. So this fellow Francis Parkman, 1:43:50.560 --> 1:43:55.599 he went out in eighteen forty six and wound up 1:43:56.560 --> 1:44:03.519 traveling with the Iguala Sioux and likely was in Crazy 1:44:03.560 --> 1:44:06.519 Horses camp when Crazy Horse would have been about thirteen 1:44:06.600 --> 1:44:10.080 years old. They go into the Black Hills to collect 1:44:10.280 --> 1:44:13.280 He goes with the Iguala Sou into the Black Hills 1:44:13.320 --> 1:44:18.360 to collect tep poles and describes there how one day 1:44:18.520 --> 1:44:21.760 they get on a ledge up above a herd of 1:44:21.840 --> 1:44:27.559 big horns and start rolling trundling rocks down through the 1:44:27.600 --> 1:44:31.760 herd and kill something that's amazing, and he explains it 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:37.720 very explicitly, and it's like, um, that doesn't get that's 1:44:37.720 --> 1:44:39.519 preserved because he saw it. And this is the thing 1:44:39.520 --> 1:44:41.120 we've talked about when we talk about these things like 1:44:41.200 --> 1:44:45.040 archaeological stings, and were they like were they ten years later? 1:44:45.360 --> 1:44:48.760 Do you remember that weird ass time when we got 1:44:48.800 --> 1:44:52.160 on that hill and freakishly there's a hundred big horns 1:44:52.240 --> 1:44:55.040 and frequently there's like these big, huge rocks and they 1:44:55.080 --> 1:45:01.400 were like and how weird that was? Right? Right, despite 1:45:01.439 --> 1:45:05.800 having all these other technologies, right, instead of using the 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:08.360 guns that we had, instead of using the spears, instead 1:45:08.360 --> 1:45:11.560 of using the bows. Yeah, or was it like you 1:45:11.600 --> 1:45:14.519 know what we like to do, come May, we get 1:45:14.560 --> 1:45:19.200 on a big cliff every year and trundull big horns, 1:45:19.320 --> 1:45:22.040 death of big rocks, right, because there's just there's like 1:45:22.080 --> 1:45:25.120 a certain amount of just like freaking ship happen. Yeah, definitely, 1:45:25.120 --> 1:45:27.800 you know. And so the fact that like you come 1:45:27.840 --> 1:45:29.439 across the man was stuck in the mud and some 1:45:29.479 --> 1:45:32.800 guy manages the you know, taken an hour or so 1:45:32.880 --> 1:45:36.240 of his time, Jeff, some holes into over and over 1:45:37.960 --> 1:45:39.800 like jab it's eye out till it dies with a 1:45:39.880 --> 1:45:42.960 Clovis points. I don't know sure, yeah, no cloths, people 1:45:43.000 --> 1:45:46.880 could have occasionally taken one out. Um, but you bring 1:45:47.000 --> 1:45:50.240 up like these historic accounts and we can get into 1:45:50.240 --> 1:45:54.360 the ethnographic record of elephant hunting, and that's where we 1:45:54.400 --> 1:45:56.639 can start to look at well, okay, let's look at 1:45:56.680 --> 1:46:01.320 folks who have metal spears. Right, there are documented cases 1:46:01.520 --> 1:46:05.680 of the mabooty in Africa of spear hunting elephants are 1:46:05.680 --> 1:46:09.559 trying to spear hunt elephants and they're metal spears bend 1:46:09.840 --> 1:46:14.640 and bounce off Bisa. Hunters with muzzle loaders only have 1:46:14.680 --> 1:46:20.360 a twenty percent success rate of of taking out mammoths. Yeah, elephants, elephants, 1:46:20.439 --> 1:46:23.439 yeah yeah, And so like this idea that with modern 1:46:23.479 --> 1:46:26.679 metals and and even firearms, it's hard to to take 1:46:26.680 --> 1:46:29.720 out an elephant, which is smaller than a mammoth, the idea, 1:46:29.880 --> 1:46:31.680 and you don't have that hair and you don't have 1:46:32.080 --> 1:46:35.960 yeah exactly, and hair can really slow down projectiles dirty 1:46:36.160 --> 1:46:41.720 oh yeah, sam, mud filled hair. Never tried to skin 1:46:41.840 --> 1:46:45.120 of critter with a knife, tried to jab a man 1:46:45.200 --> 1:46:49.559 with under those conditions, So it's uh, it would have 1:46:49.600 --> 1:46:52.360 been a challenge. And so this idea that they just 1:46:52.400 --> 1:46:55.120 did it all the time, I just isn't supported. So 1:46:55.200 --> 1:46:57.240 you don't know where I caught you in a contradiction. 1:46:57.720 --> 1:47:00.720 It could correct your career, you know, it's I made 1:47:00.800 --> 1:47:02.960 knives out of my own frozen poop. So I don't 1:47:03.000 --> 1:47:04.640 know if i'd call it a career. Earlier, you we 1:47:04.760 --> 1:47:06.840 we're talking about fluting. Yeah, and you pointed out that 1:47:06.880 --> 1:47:11.519 it could act as a shock absorber. But but there 1:47:11.560 --> 1:47:13.879 was a knife. No, No, it was a multi functional 1:47:13.920 --> 1:47:18.240 tool that could also be used to say, it could 1:47:18.280 --> 1:47:21.719 be you know, used for deer, moose or or elker 1:47:21.920 --> 1:47:26.640 or whatever. So yeah, um, a colleague, try to do 1:47:26.680 --> 1:47:28.160 that to me too, You try to ruin your career, 1:47:28.880 --> 1:47:32.240 same thing, you know, the exact Yeah, but now that 1:47:32.240 --> 1:47:34.080 I think about it, you already said that it probably 1:47:34.160 --> 1:47:36.439 was and they might used it for fighting each other 1:47:37.479 --> 1:47:40.320 or self defense. Um. This is the other thing about 1:47:40.320 --> 1:47:44.840 Clovis points. They're so big, um that I am starting 1:47:44.840 --> 1:47:49.920 to suspect that they were probably used primarily on handheld spears. Um, 1:47:49.960 --> 1:47:52.280 because think about it, right, you are new to this continent. 1:47:52.680 --> 1:47:54.800 There's all sorts of critters that want to eat you, 1:47:54.920 --> 1:48:00.360 short faced bear, sabertooth tigers, Your and your population densities 1:48:00.400 --> 1:48:03.559 are really low because you're peopling this new continent. You 1:48:03.600 --> 1:48:05.280 want to do everything you can to survive. When you're 1:48:05.280 --> 1:48:08.000 out in the wild, you need some form of self defense. 1:48:08.520 --> 1:48:10.360 Um and so more and more I'm starting to think 1:48:10.360 --> 1:48:12.639 to my mind that maybe Clovis points would have served 1:48:12.680 --> 1:48:15.160 that purpose as well, and it had a stick and 1:48:15.160 --> 1:48:18.120 it was just like a d all. Yeah, again, I 1:48:18.120 --> 1:48:20.400 want to say new to this continent by like, what's 1:48:20.400 --> 1:48:28.040 your context? Right? Are you fifth generation new to this continent? Right? Like? What? Well, 1:48:28.120 --> 1:48:31.439 So this gets into the whole issue of when North 1:48:31.439 --> 1:48:36.839 America's was peopled. Right, So, there are pre Clovis people's 1:48:36.960 --> 1:48:40.919 in North America. Now there they seem to be limited 1:48:40.920 --> 1:48:44.960 to the West coast, Pacific, Northwest, and the southwest. There 1:48:45.000 --> 1:48:47.479 are areas of North America where it looks like people 1:48:47.479 --> 1:48:50.519 who use Clovis technology were first, So that would be 1:48:50.600 --> 1:48:54.720 the Great Lakes, New England, probably the southeast parts. Um. 1:48:55.040 --> 1:48:58.320 So Clovis was first in some regions, but they had 1:48:58.320 --> 1:49:03.320 predecessors in other regions because the fluted point was invented here. 1:49:03.640 --> 1:49:06.200 We don't find the Clovis fluted point anywhere else in 1:49:06.240 --> 1:49:08.839 Asia or anything like that. So if it was invented 1:49:08.840 --> 1:49:11.799 in North America. There had to have been pre Clovised 1:49:11.800 --> 1:49:14.559 people here to invent it. Yeah. I've heard people in 1:49:14.600 --> 1:49:17.639 trying to describe the Clovis culturalist sort of like it 1:49:17.760 --> 1:49:24.120 was the first widespread American born. Yeah, that's a good description. 1:49:24.200 --> 1:49:28.479 How long did the Clovis culture last? Only about anywhere 1:49:28.479 --> 1:49:31.720 from five hundred to probably eight hundred years. Yeah, it 1:49:31.760 --> 1:49:35.000 did not last long. Now the reason why? Well, yeah, 1:49:35.000 --> 1:49:37.439 but how I mean it a long? Like think about 1:49:37.479 --> 1:49:40.360 how long has America been here? Well, that's true, but 1:49:40.439 --> 1:49:44.559 when you mean they're like five Americas, that's true, but 1:49:44.800 --> 1:49:47.160 I mean America the country. Yeah, you're like, oh, that's 1:49:47.160 --> 1:49:49.439 not very long, and they're like, well that is pretty long. Well, 1:49:49.720 --> 1:49:56.519 but my math stone technology good, I'm saying it's a 1:49:56.560 --> 1:50:01.400 long time. Yeah, but Clovis points compared to something like this, 1:50:01.600 --> 1:50:04.160 which is so this is the ashlet in hand ax 1:50:04.240 --> 1:50:08.519 made by Homorectus. So it is a large tear drop 1:50:08.560 --> 1:50:12.880 shaped object that is much larger than my face. I 1:50:12.880 --> 1:50:15.800 don't know what else to say. Gorgeous, man, But this 1:50:15.920 --> 1:50:20.040 lasted for one point five million years, this particular, so 1:50:20.320 --> 1:50:23.200 you'll find them in the human record for that long. Yeah. Really, 1:50:23.280 --> 1:50:26.479 long time. So it's an idea that stuck. Yeah, so 1:50:26.560 --> 1:50:28.760 you like the idea of Clovis points last for eight 1:50:28.800 --> 1:50:32.280 hundred years is not long at all? One point five 1:50:32.439 --> 1:50:35.920 million years. This thing, Homorectus was just using this over 1:50:35.920 --> 1:50:40.680 and over again to chop up tubers and disarticulate skeletons. 1:50:41.080 --> 1:50:43.920 So see when you came in, this is a good 1:50:43.920 --> 1:50:50.120 transition into like how stuff was produced. Um, I a 1:50:50.240 --> 1:50:51.880 real quick to you. Just as we pass this around, 1:50:52.000 --> 1:50:55.720 obsidian does get sharp to the molecule, So just when 1:50:55.760 --> 1:51:00.000 you're passing it around, don't like touch the edge. Yeah, 1:50:59.760 --> 1:51:03.760 woke me through based on what we found. What we found, Like, 1:51:03.880 --> 1:51:09.479 let's say on this continent, A your hunter gatherer and 1:51:09.600 --> 1:51:12.120 you use stone tools. So you use stone, spear points, 1:51:12.120 --> 1:51:15.080 stone arrow points, stone knives, right, all your hardships made 1:51:15.080 --> 1:51:20.680 out of stone. Um, leave out trade networks and just 1:51:20.760 --> 1:51:23.720 walk me through sort of like the process of one 1:51:23.720 --> 1:51:27.559 minute you have nothing and then you have these like 1:51:27.640 --> 1:51:38.160 finally wrought pieces. So alright, so this is a I'm 1:51:38.200 --> 1:51:41.679 holding a raw piece of shirt that I just almost 1:51:41.680 --> 1:51:45.599 destroyed your microphone with. Um. Now this is called George 1:51:45.600 --> 1:51:47.880 Town shirt from Texas, and iously that I think you're 1:51:47.880 --> 1:51:50.600 holding the hunkle bone. Yeah, we're like the outside of it. 1:51:50.680 --> 1:51:55.479 This is rock and it's got this chalky substance cortex almost. 1:51:56.120 --> 1:51:58.120 So that's like you find that laying on the ground. 1:51:58.120 --> 1:51:59.759 You find that laying on the ground, you can quarry 1:51:59.760 --> 1:52:01.839 it a well, dig it out at like a churt outcrop. 1:52:02.360 --> 1:52:06.120 Now something like that. I would start chipping with the 1:52:06.240 --> 1:52:08.080 hammerstones and stuff which I brought. I can do some 1:52:08.120 --> 1:52:09.760 tipping for you guys. No, no, no, no, aren't we 1:52:09.760 --> 1:52:11.479 through it? Man? But do you want to bust that 1:52:11.520 --> 1:52:12.960 one up? Or you like that one too? No? No, 1:52:13.080 --> 1:52:15.479 I brought that to break for you, guys. That's a 1:52:15.520 --> 1:52:19.080 beauty piece. Oh no, I mean which is like trying 1:52:19.080 --> 1:52:23.240 to break it. And it's like called the conchoidal fracture 1:52:23.520 --> 1:52:27.600 conchoidal fracture, and so what it means is chirt, basalt, obsidian. 1:52:27.960 --> 1:52:32.120 These are all rocks that break like glass um and 1:52:32.720 --> 1:52:36.639 concoidal means shell like the fracture. Yeah, I've heard that word. 1:52:36.680 --> 1:52:38.599 I never put together what it means. Yeah, it means 1:52:38.600 --> 1:52:41.599 like a little scallop shell. Exactly when you flake it, 1:52:41.600 --> 1:52:44.120 it leaves like a little scalp shell shape. That's exactly right. 1:52:44.160 --> 1:52:47.240 And because that shape is predictable, and if you understand 1:52:47.240 --> 1:52:50.519 the angles and where to hit it, the fracture becomes 1:52:50.520 --> 1:52:54.160 really predictable and you can basically make whatever you want. UM. 1:52:54.200 --> 1:52:56.639 So a piece like that you would sort of thin 1:52:56.800 --> 1:53:01.439 down into a larger naps. So this is the same stone. 1:53:01.880 --> 1:53:03.920 Is that called a byface or this is called a 1:53:03.960 --> 1:53:06.400 byface because I've I've take flakes off of both sides, 1:53:07.200 --> 1:53:09.360 um and it's got a nice sharp edge. I could 1:53:09.439 --> 1:53:14.479 use this as a processing tool. So now the hunk 1:53:14.520 --> 1:53:18.360 of what's that? What's that again? That's Georgetown shirt? So 1:53:18.560 --> 1:53:20.680 we got a huge as hunk at Georgetown chirt and 1:53:20.840 --> 1:53:24.120 what's the way six pounds? Yeah, I mean it basically 1:53:24.120 --> 1:53:27.840 looks like a big rock um with what's down the 1:53:27.880 --> 1:53:32.000 outside the cortex white CORTI like a dough colored cortex 1:53:32.040 --> 1:53:34.879 on the outside, but the inside is like classic smooth, 1:53:35.040 --> 1:53:38.960 kind of flint looking, flinty looking rock. And this, like 1:53:39.000 --> 1:53:41.000 I said, you picked this up off the ground like 1:53:41.720 --> 1:53:44.920 right where God laid it, Like there it is okay. 1:53:45.160 --> 1:53:50.240 And then someone's not gonna like walk away with fifty 1:53:50.280 --> 1:53:53.479 pounds of this ship in his bag. They might, oh 1:53:53.560 --> 1:53:56.880 you think so, yeah, you would see these. You'd see 1:53:56.920 --> 1:53:59.880 these move from sources. We see people transport rock all 1:54:00.000 --> 1:54:02.800 sorts of distances. Yeah, like in this form, yeah oh yeah, 1:54:02.800 --> 1:54:05.120 in raw form, also in processed form, because I was 1:54:05.160 --> 1:54:07.479 picturing them getting it, like down to what I'm holding 1:54:07.560 --> 1:54:12.240 my other hand, which is this, Uh how how thick 1:54:12.320 --> 1:54:14.640 is that? It's like thick is a slice of bread. Yeah, 1:54:14.840 --> 1:54:17.360 all cleaned up on all sides. It's almost kind of 1:54:17.400 --> 1:54:19.960 like an a workable knife shape, right now, that's right, 1:54:20.240 --> 1:54:24.120 And then of this you could further And what's the 1:54:24.120 --> 1:54:26.920 advantage of that by face that you're holding is that 1:54:27.280 --> 1:54:30.120 it's not sort of the knife itself or the by 1:54:30.160 --> 1:54:32.360 face itself. It's all the fact that all the flakes 1:54:32.400 --> 1:54:36.800 that come off are really useful and razor sharp. Um. 1:54:36.840 --> 1:54:39.480 So this this by face is like a little container 1:54:39.600 --> 1:54:42.360 of stone flakes from every time I take one off, 1:54:42.400 --> 1:54:44.880 I'm like removing a flake from this container to make 1:54:44.920 --> 1:54:47.720 all sorts of other tools or arrow heads or scrapers 1:54:47.800 --> 1:54:52.000 or whatever. What's the furthest you ever seen like like 1:54:52.120 --> 1:54:55.960 origin toolstone travel from like where you expected to find 1:54:56.000 --> 1:54:59.680 it to where like you recovered like an artifact. Yeah, 1:54:59.720 --> 1:55:02.760 so they there's a site in northeastern Ohio called Paleo 1:55:02.840 --> 1:55:06.880 Crossing that I've been working on since I was a teenager. Um. 1:55:07.080 --> 1:55:10.680 And uh, the the rock was transported by Clovis people 1:55:10.880 --> 1:55:14.720 over six hundred kilometers UM. And so they picked up 1:55:15.040 --> 1:55:19.000 what's called Wyan dot Churt from southern Indiana and western Kentucky. 1:55:19.120 --> 1:55:21.840 And probably because they didn't know if there was going 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:24.360 to be resupply rock in northern Ohio where they were 1:55:24.360 --> 1:55:26.520 going to because they were sort of moving into that 1:55:26.560 --> 1:55:29.280 region for the first time, they geared up and they 1:55:29.320 --> 1:55:32.480 prepared and they took a ton of this wine dot 1:55:32.560 --> 1:55:36.600 Churt and transported it northward to northeastern Ohio. Like how 1:55:36.680 --> 1:55:38.120 much is a ton? I mean, like I know how 1:55:38.200 --> 1:55:43.280 much of ton? So we're talking about forty Clovis points. Uh, 1:55:43.320 --> 1:55:47.320 something like eight hundred scrapers. You got a site that 1:55:47.360 --> 1:55:52.680 put off forty Clovis points. Oh yeah, oh yeah, if 1:55:52.720 --> 1:55:54.080 you want to see them too, you guys are all 1:55:54.120 --> 1:55:56.960 welcome to come to the lab and and over how 1:55:57.000 --> 1:56:01.520 big of an area? Ah, probably, I'm just trying to 1:56:01.560 --> 1:56:06.839 think in terms of fifty square meters. No ship really, Yeah, 1:56:06.880 --> 1:56:09.560 it's pretty sweet, was it was? It a good decision 1:56:09.560 --> 1:56:11.080 for them to move all that shirt or do they 1:56:11.160 --> 1:56:13.560 have like some good source material to where they took it? 1:56:13.680 --> 1:56:17.400 So why not shurt is awesome? Um so they were 1:56:17.440 --> 1:56:18.920 they knew what they were doing when they picked up 1:56:18.920 --> 1:56:21.040 a bunch of it, and so of geared good rock. 1:56:21.240 --> 1:56:25.240 Oh it's good rock. It's really good. I'm real dumb 1:56:26.080 --> 1:56:30.600 and so. But but again, there is rock in Ohio. 1:56:30.800 --> 1:56:33.880 But since they had never been there before, they didn't know, 1:56:33.960 --> 1:56:37.680 so they prepared. They took a bunch up with them. Yeah, 1:56:37.840 --> 1:56:39.640 so you go smart from vacation, you bring a bunch 1:56:39.640 --> 1:56:41.520 of sunscreen and you realize was a bunch of sunscreen 1:56:41.560 --> 1:56:45.160 and the airbnb. That's right, that's right. We were in 1:56:45.640 --> 1:56:50.360 Nebraska on a deer hunt and on this this place 1:56:50.400 --> 1:56:54.920 where it went, there was barely any rock and most 1:56:55.280 --> 1:56:59.800 it was just and if you found a rock, it 1:56:59.880 --> 1:57:03.800 was most likely brought there. Yeah. Yeah, the rancher we're talking, 1:57:03.800 --> 1:57:05.400 he was saying that he goes well in this area, 1:57:05.760 --> 1:57:07.880 just the fact that it is rock. It's probably you 1:57:07.880 --> 1:57:10.160 should worth looking at because because there's nothing, there's no 1:57:10.280 --> 1:57:12.960 rock here, man, rock here's something It came in someone 1:57:13.000 --> 1:57:16.600 carried it. No, definitely, and I think god we used 1:57:16.720 --> 1:57:20.560 flint and basalt and conquitally fractured rocks for three million years. 1:57:20.640 --> 1:57:24.160 I mean, this stuff is the most valuable stuff I 1:57:24.160 --> 1:57:27.080 think our species ever used. I mean, it got us 1:57:27.120 --> 1:57:29.960 to where we are today. I mean, and then it's 1:57:30.000 --> 1:57:32.280 the origin of the firearms industry in a lot of ways, 1:57:32.720 --> 1:57:36.040 gun flints, right, and then there are hunter gatherer groups 1:57:36.080 --> 1:57:40.480 today that's still use concutely fractured rock for various tools 1:57:40.480 --> 1:57:54.760 and stuff. Okay, bust one upright, putting the safety glasses on. 1:57:54.920 --> 1:57:56.600 I have to and hopefully I won't lose a finger, 1:57:56.600 --> 1:58:01.360 which I almost did once. I see a tap and 1:58:01.400 --> 1:58:03.640 what do you tap? And just listen to the harmonics. Yeah, 1:58:03.720 --> 1:58:06.400 so um, for a couple of reasons. One, if there's 1:58:06.440 --> 1:58:08.320 a dull thud, that'd mean there'd be some sort of 1:58:08.320 --> 1:58:10.520 crack in it. So if I mess up here, then 1:58:10.640 --> 1:58:14.320 it's my fault. It's you're you're testing the sound, testing 1:58:14.320 --> 1:58:16.720 the sound. You want that nice sort of like how 1:58:16.760 --> 1:58:20.640 do you choose your pounding stone? There? So this is 1:58:20.840 --> 1:58:23.440 a sandstone and depending there's a lot that goes into 1:58:23.480 --> 1:58:25.480 it in terms of the type of rock that you're 1:58:25.480 --> 1:58:28.280 flint napping. Also the size of your rock. You want 1:58:28.280 --> 1:58:31.040 to adjust your hammerstone to match it such that you 1:58:31.080 --> 1:58:34.000 can initiate a fracture but not actually push the rock 1:58:34.080 --> 1:58:36.320 out of your hand or out of your lap. Yeah, 1:58:36.440 --> 1:58:39.400 view that way. Your hammerstone probably ways a third or 1:58:39.400 --> 1:58:42.280 a quarter or what your piece of Yeah, probably something 1:58:42.320 --> 1:58:47.320 like that. So I am just one little hit, one 1:58:47.320 --> 1:58:51.720 little hit, beautiful, this nice flake and you can see those. 1:58:51.760 --> 1:58:54.200 So he did one hit and knocked off like a 1:58:54.280 --> 1:58:57.839 chocolate chip cookie off there. So now the first flakes 1:58:57.880 --> 1:59:01.040 that come off any nodule generally aren't that great because 1:59:01.040 --> 1:59:04.000 they've got that cortex, so they're not that sharp. Yeah, 1:59:04.040 --> 1:59:06.680 what's the other word for that stuff? It's called like, 1:59:06.680 --> 1:59:11.680 like in general, how they describe it, um patent a patina? Yeah, 1:59:11.800 --> 1:59:14.280 like is that not the right word? Well, patinas when 1:59:14.320 --> 1:59:19.160 it changes color, Well, we'll get even sharper patentations, Yeah, 1:59:19.160 --> 1:59:21.920 that's the coloration. Yeah, so no, we'll get some sharper one. 1:59:21.960 --> 1:59:25.200 I mean that comes off sharp though. All right now, 1:59:25.240 --> 1:59:27.360 these first ones, like I said, aren't so sharp because 1:59:27.360 --> 1:59:29.200 of that cortex. But we're gonna get some real sharp 1:59:29.240 --> 1:59:31.000 ones here. And and what are you calling these pieces 1:59:32.120 --> 1:59:36.720 primary flakes? Yeah, and let me ask another question. You 1:59:36.840 --> 1:59:39.880 boys can look at this, and you can look at 1:59:39.920 --> 1:59:43.600 this and say that was broke off. That was broke 1:59:43.680 --> 1:59:48.680 off by a blow. Yes, that wasn't broke off by erosion. Correct, Yes, Yes, 1:59:48.760 --> 1:59:52.880 So conchoidal fracturing stone tools, especially when you start making 1:59:53.200 --> 1:59:56.280 more complex things, there's no mistaking them with with nature. 1:59:56.680 --> 1:59:59.320 It's not like a frost like like water got in 1:59:59.360 --> 2:00:06.880 there and expand and no different. That's correct. So we're 2:00:06.920 --> 2:00:09.360 getting that's a nice sharp An interesting thing about this 2:00:09.480 --> 2:00:11.880 if you're trying to visualize this at home, is when 2:00:11.880 --> 2:00:15.040 he lays the rock down and hits it. Uh, the 2:00:15.080 --> 2:00:19.080 piece he's blowing off isn't on top. He's blowing off 2:00:19.120 --> 2:00:21.520 a piece that is then left. He's doing this on 2:00:21.560 --> 2:00:23.520 his knee with a bunch of leather on his knee 2:00:23.560 --> 2:00:26.320 for padding, and he hits the top of the rock 2:00:26.480 --> 2:00:29.000 and it doesn't knock off the top. He hits the 2:00:29.000 --> 2:00:30.800 top of the rock and it blows a hunk off 2:00:30.920 --> 2:00:33.680 the bottom, and that's where he's then left like laying 2:00:33.680 --> 2:00:36.160 on his lap. Right. And that's why flint napping can 2:00:36.200 --> 2:00:38.360 be so difficult is because you don't actually see the 2:00:38.400 --> 2:00:40.800 product that you're making, and it just takes years of 2:00:40.800 --> 2:00:44.440 experience to know that this product that you're not seeing 2:00:44.600 --> 2:00:49.760 is only created with certain variables that you do see. Um, 2:00:49.800 --> 2:00:54.240 So all right, that's pretty cool man. Now this is 2:00:54.240 --> 2:00:58.760 a really sharply Um, let's use this one though. Actually, 2:00:58.840 --> 2:01:05.240 let's cut some leather. Brought some extra pieces, so fresh 2:01:05.280 --> 2:01:07.160 off the rock, fresh off the rock, so this edge 2:01:07.240 --> 2:01:10.600 right here, go ahead and grab that, and yeah, this 2:01:10.720 --> 2:01:14.280 is some decent leather ship man, So just ahead and 2:01:14.280 --> 2:01:23.320 slice that. Well, yeah, there go slices, leader, man. So 2:01:23.520 --> 2:01:27.080 you can easily disarticulate an entire I mean, it's like 2:01:27.720 --> 2:01:31.640 when you run your thumb across it. It's uh, I 2:01:31.640 --> 2:01:33.320 mean it's like if you just did it to blind 2:01:33.360 --> 2:01:35.080 to someone he said, what's that, they'd be like, it's 2:01:35.080 --> 2:01:37.320 like a kitchen knife. Yeah, well, let's should we knock 2:01:37.360 --> 2:01:41.880 one off the obsidian? Let's see, man, that's I don't 2:01:41.880 --> 2:01:43.840 think you should mess that thing up. Man, do you 2:01:43.880 --> 2:01:45.440 got more of those? I've got more? You can knock 2:01:45.480 --> 2:01:48.000 off a couple here. That was too kind of nice. 2:01:48.200 --> 2:01:50.080 It's always funny when I travel with a bunch of 2:01:50.160 --> 2:01:52.840 rock um, because they always go through my two case 2:01:52.880 --> 2:01:56.080 and they're just like, what the hell is this? Weapons? Yeah? 2:01:56.560 --> 2:02:02.240 A stone? Weapons like Um, so what I'll do is 2:02:02.280 --> 2:02:05.520 I'm just gonna prepare a small striking platform on this. 2:02:06.240 --> 2:02:09.839 What's that mean? So the striking platform in flint napping 2:02:09.920 --> 2:02:12.640 is the spot that you're going to hit. Um, so 2:02:12.680 --> 2:02:15.520 you're knocking the sharp he's like dulling it. I'm dulling it. 2:02:15.560 --> 2:02:18.000 So basically I get a bigger bite when I strike 2:02:18.720 --> 2:02:21.280 huh the flake, and I'm grinding it as well, which 2:02:21.280 --> 2:02:25.400 adjusts the angle slightly. Um, there's all sorts of variables 2:02:25.440 --> 2:02:27.280 that go into flint napping. Now what am gonna do 2:02:27.280 --> 2:02:28.760 is I'm gonna do. I gotta tell you real quick 2:02:28.800 --> 2:02:31.400 that there's two things I've avoided in life is chest 2:02:31.480 --> 2:02:35.480 and flint napping because I got a glimpse into each 2:02:35.520 --> 2:02:37.000 of them and realized that I was never going to 2:02:37.080 --> 2:02:38.800 really figure it out, and so why I mess around? 2:02:39.200 --> 2:02:41.960 You know what, if you were able to and this 2:02:42.040 --> 2:02:43.440 goes for all you guys, if you want to come 2:02:43.480 --> 2:02:45.640 to the lab, I'll get you guys flint napping and 2:02:46.080 --> 2:02:49.000 day a day. Yeah, it just seemed like a deep 2:02:49.080 --> 2:02:51.880 dark hole you can go into. Man, Yeah, I mean 2:02:51.920 --> 2:02:55.560 it it becomes like so from my experience, right, so 2:02:56.040 --> 2:02:59.720 kind of like I've been flint napping for over twenty 2:02:59.840 --> 2:03:04.040 years years. Um. Two of those years I apprenticed one 2:03:04.080 --> 2:03:06.280 of the best flint nappers in the world. Um, a 2:03:06.320 --> 2:03:08.760 guy named Bruce Bradley. And during that two years I 2:03:08.760 --> 2:03:13.720 flint napped ten hours a day every day. Yeah. Um. 2:03:13.800 --> 2:03:16.600 And then I apprentice another flint napper named Bob Patton, 2:03:16.640 --> 2:03:19.440 who's also one of the best in the world. And um, 2:03:19.480 --> 2:03:22.440 for again, just it's it's an apprenticeship. It's like anything. 2:03:22.440 --> 2:03:24.560 It just takes a long time. Will you explain your 2:03:24.560 --> 2:03:28.280 tool change? Yeah, so this is just antler, and antler 2:03:28.320 --> 2:03:32.320 allows you to strike different angles. Yeah, definitely. I got 2:03:32.320 --> 2:03:35.800 some bigger ones too. Here's a moose for larger flakes. 2:03:35.960 --> 2:03:39.240 Look at that, man, Yeah, so like imagine, um, I'll 2:03:39.280 --> 2:03:43.680 describe that call, yeah, an ice cream calling. It almost 2:03:43.720 --> 2:03:48.400 looks like the pedicle end of a moose. Antler. That's pretty. 2:03:48.440 --> 2:03:52.400 That's that's cool. Just like that. So, well, let me 2:03:52.440 --> 2:03:54.640 get slightly bigger one here, just because if you're gonna 2:03:54.640 --> 2:03:56.800 be holding it, I don't want you to lose a 2:03:56.840 --> 2:04:00.560 finger like I almost did. Now there's great quote here 2:04:00.560 --> 2:04:02.640 already where he's like, be careful with that gets sharp 2:04:02.680 --> 2:04:05.720 to the microbial level. Well, you know, it's funny. There's 2:04:05.920 --> 2:04:09.400 uh it does. It gets sharp to the molecule, molecule 2:04:09.560 --> 2:04:12.400 molecular and I'm gonna explain my knives to like two 2:04:12.400 --> 2:04:16.120 people after like that from now on. Yeah, we would 2:04:16.120 --> 2:04:20.480 see a molecule on the end. Now, Um, they're so sharp, 2:04:21.120 --> 2:04:22.800 you might be like, well, why how come surgeons don't 2:04:22.840 --> 2:04:27.080 use them? Surgeons don't like obsidian because it's so sharp 2:04:27.160 --> 2:04:29.760 that they can't feel the different layers of skin. It's 2:04:29.760 --> 2:04:33.680 because it just goes right through. There's no resistance, whereas 2:04:33.680 --> 2:04:36.200 with steel they have just that slight little bit of resistance. 2:04:36.760 --> 2:04:38.960 Um that allows them to sort of feel where they are. 2:04:39.600 --> 2:04:43.360 Now here, Now is that a true story? Someone in 2:04:43.400 --> 2:04:47.640 the flint napping community. Actually, I can see Brody through it. 2:04:48.160 --> 2:04:53.800 Have a surgeon performance surgery with obsidian tools on on themselves. 2:04:53.880 --> 2:04:57.040 So Don Crabtree was a flint napper in the nineteen 2:04:57.080 --> 2:05:00.760 fifties and sixties, it seems like driver. Yeah, and he 2:05:00.880 --> 2:05:06.080 made his own Uh. Okay, we're taking the piece of 2:05:06.080 --> 2:05:07.520 the city in which I said, like you can look 2:05:07.560 --> 2:05:13.560 through it, cut at your buddy, not your body. Oh yeah, 2:05:13.560 --> 2:05:19.840 I look at that man right through. Oh so this 2:05:19.880 --> 2:05:22.960 stuff works. Um, oh ship that sharp. Check that out. 2:05:27.000 --> 2:05:28.560 But like that won't go through a man with I 2:05:28.600 --> 2:05:31.120 don't know what will. Well, it went through my pinky 2:05:31.200 --> 2:05:34.200 finger and they had to restitch everything back together. I 2:05:34.240 --> 2:05:36.120 saw my own bone. You never if you can get 2:05:36.120 --> 2:05:39.160 through life and not see your own bone, that's a win. 2:05:39.760 --> 2:05:42.680 So I've lost that one certainly. Just don't want to 2:05:43.000 --> 2:05:48.640 yourself and trusted there. Yeah, he jumped back to don crabtree. 2:05:49.560 --> 2:05:52.880 He made a citian blades for his own surgery that 2:05:52.960 --> 2:05:57.600 the doctor used. Um, so that's that's pretty cool just 2:05:57.640 --> 2:05:59.680 as an experiment. Well, no, well he had to have 2:05:59.680 --> 2:06:01.680 a curtain. He didn't. It wasn't like an optional surgery, 2:06:01.720 --> 2:06:03.240 but I mean like he wanted to do that to 2:06:03.240 --> 2:06:05.960 see how it would work. Yes, yeah, and it worked 2:06:06.800 --> 2:06:10.200 is amazing. So when you can get edges this sharp 2:06:10.600 --> 2:06:13.000 just from nature, like you can see why this is 2:06:13.000 --> 2:06:16.400 such a useful thing for for ancient people. But how 2:06:16.680 --> 2:06:20.600 can you take that like that rock is it looks 2:06:20.640 --> 2:06:27.400 like black glass? Yes, it's beautiful and obviously real sharp. Um, 2:06:27.480 --> 2:06:31.480 there has been huge chunks of the continent where you're 2:06:31.520 --> 2:06:33.920 not gonna have anything like that. I mean you could 2:06:33.960 --> 2:06:36.720 walk around for months and not seeing anything laying around 2:06:36.760 --> 2:06:40.040 like that. What's amazing is there's church and flint outcrops 2:06:40.080 --> 2:06:43.560 across North America. So now you'll only get certain types 2:06:44.040 --> 2:06:46.480 of rock in certain areas. So like you'll get upsidian 2:06:46.520 --> 2:06:49.840 in the Pacific Northwest, but you know, we'll get church 2:06:49.920 --> 2:06:53.720 in Ohio and in Kentucky and New England and the southeast. 2:06:53.760 --> 2:06:56.120 And when you can't use church or obsidian, you can 2:06:56.200 --> 2:07:00.600 use court sites. Um, there's there's nappable rock all across 2:07:00.640 --> 2:07:03.760 the continent. So you don't find areas where they had 2:07:03.760 --> 2:07:06.280 to use something totally different because they just had nothing 2:07:06.280 --> 2:07:09.800 that would work on this continent. They all had some version. Yeah, 2:07:09.840 --> 2:07:14.720 and we get nappable rock around the world. I mean 2:07:14.840 --> 2:07:18.320 every paleotic culture for the last three million years was 2:07:18.360 --> 2:07:21.960 able to make stuff, find some kind of something. Yeah. Um, 2:07:22.000 --> 2:07:23.800 all right, so you got your knock off what do 2:07:23.800 --> 2:07:25.640 you call that piece? Though? Any of those pieces you 2:07:25.680 --> 2:07:27.080 got in front of you that you took off of 2:07:27.080 --> 2:07:31.000 the big one just flakes. I mean I can turn 2:07:31.040 --> 2:07:34.720 these into Loyero heads. Show me a flake that you'd 2:07:34.720 --> 2:07:36.560 be like kay now and make me a Clovis point 2:07:36.560 --> 2:07:39.480 from it. So I probably get a slightly larger one 2:07:39.600 --> 2:07:42.160 let me do that real quick. So I'm gonna I'm 2:07:42.160 --> 2:07:45.040 gonna get a platform here and I'm gonna strike off 2:07:45.080 --> 2:07:53.160 a really large flake. You're gonna doule the face. So okay, 2:07:55.240 --> 2:07:58.280 when you get your giant busting rock ready, actually probably 2:07:58.280 --> 2:08:00.880 you're actually braiding it now to dull it up. Yes, yeah, 2:08:01.000 --> 2:08:03.920 and so you're smoothing it out. It's also slightly adjusting 2:08:03.960 --> 2:08:08.960 the angle of the platform I'm about to hit. And 2:08:08.960 --> 2:08:11.200 then I'm also gonna probably strike this with the moose antler. 2:08:13.360 --> 2:08:15.480 So you feel like, right right now, you kind of 2:08:15.520 --> 2:08:18.080 know what's gonna happen. I know exactly what's gonna happen. 2:08:18.600 --> 2:08:21.720 Tell me what's gonna happen. Let's prove it. So I 2:08:21.760 --> 2:08:26.400 am going to turn this rock over. I'm gonna support it. 2:08:26.560 --> 2:08:30.080 So you just you you took the edge off, sit 2:08:30.160 --> 2:08:32.400 kind of sanded it down at the angle you want, 2:08:32.840 --> 2:08:34.400 and now you're going to hit it with a giant 2:08:34.480 --> 2:08:37.160 hunkle moose antler. What is going to happen? There should 2:08:37.160 --> 2:08:39.680 be a flake that comes off that will be a 2:08:39.800 --> 2:08:43.840 nice decent sized flight. So you're going to put money 2:08:43.840 --> 2:08:48.120 on it. Chester Okay, just says five bucks. You can't 2:08:48.160 --> 2:08:54.880 do it so not as big. Hold on one second, 2:08:55.040 --> 2:09:00.240 let me just how many chances you No, no, that 2:09:00.240 --> 2:09:08.040 one was my fault. There's nothing wrong with this rock. No, no, 2:09:08.160 --> 2:09:11.080 sometimes the platform crumbles. That happens. That that was the 2:09:11.080 --> 2:09:13.560 platform crumbling. That was a platform crumbling because I did 2:09:13.600 --> 2:09:16.960 not strengthen it enough. So here you go. So how 2:09:17.000 --> 2:09:19.960 much of this is like prescriptive versus like interpretive, Like 2:09:20.040 --> 2:09:22.360 does somebody take a piece of rock and go, I'm 2:09:22.400 --> 2:09:24.680 going to make this now or do they go, oh, 2:09:24.920 --> 2:09:27.200 this happened. I could make this, or I could make this, 2:09:27.320 --> 2:09:30.240 or I might make this. No, like I could sit 2:09:30.240 --> 2:09:32.600 here and make a Clovis point from this rock, Like 2:09:32.760 --> 2:09:35.400 so I yeah, that's what I would. Yeah, but I'm saying, 2:09:35.400 --> 2:09:38.720 like when when somebody knocks off little like char makes 2:09:38.760 --> 2:09:43.240 maraheads too. Oh no, no, um, everything is intentional. So 2:09:43.280 --> 2:09:45.120 it's not just you busted all the pieces and see 2:09:45.120 --> 2:09:47.120 what you got. No, no, no, you have to do 2:09:47.200 --> 2:09:56.240 something specific to get something exactly exactly. Sorry, there we go. 2:09:57.280 --> 2:10:00.960 Oh so that was what he said was gonna happen. Yeah, 2:10:00.960 --> 2:10:05.360 that's what you would happened the first time. But that's okay. Yeah, 2:10:05.360 --> 2:10:09.280 we still got enough. If you don't like it. Hit 2:10:09.320 --> 2:10:10.960 another one, I believe you now? Oh yeah, no, no no 2:10:11.040 --> 2:10:12.760 that sorry, I can keep going like this one. I 2:10:12.800 --> 2:10:16.240 brought ones that I could sort of finish like this 2:10:16.240 --> 2:10:18.200 one that was pretty good, but like a fella could 2:10:18.240 --> 2:10:20.680 make a close point. Yes, yeah, definitely, because Clovis points 2:10:20.680 --> 2:10:25.840 can get small too. Um, that's for baby man. Do 2:10:25.880 --> 2:10:29.920 you think they did Do you think they did any 2:10:30.000 --> 2:10:32.320 kind of maintenance on a point, Like would they apply 2:10:32.440 --> 2:10:35.560 some mineral oil to it, or wash them or put 2:10:35.600 --> 2:10:42.320 some dust on them? Um? Why just because they were big? 2:10:42.640 --> 2:10:46.080 Because they were big into ochre so okre. When we 2:10:46.120 --> 2:10:50.840 get ochre found on Clovis artifacts, what I suspect is 2:10:50.840 --> 2:10:53.320 happening is that they're not like doing a ritual or 2:10:53.400 --> 2:10:56.800 they sprinkled the ochre on the artifact. I actually think 2:10:56.800 --> 2:11:00.080 what they've done is they've waterproofed the leather bag that 2:11:00.120 --> 2:11:04.320 the Clovis point was in in ochre. That wasn't those 2:11:04.560 --> 2:11:07.600 wasn't there like some ocre involved with that anzik one site? Yeah? 2:11:07.640 --> 2:11:09.800 And we have a um what looks like to be 2:11:09.840 --> 2:11:12.000 a Clovis cash and ohio that we just published, and 2:11:12.000 --> 2:11:13.920 there was ochre on those pieces too. You think of 2:11:14.000 --> 2:11:16.160 their sack I think there was a sack that they 2:11:16.160 --> 2:11:18.480 were all put in when they were buried. Now that 2:11:18.560 --> 2:11:21.680 disintegrated over the last thirteen thousand years and the ochres 2:11:21.800 --> 2:11:24.080 left on the stone tools that were in the bag. 2:11:25.400 --> 2:11:30.520 So that's why I think was happening. But I could 2:11:30.560 --> 2:11:33.440 be wrong. I've been wrong before. Now what are you doing? 2:11:33.680 --> 2:11:35.920 So right now, I'm isolating this platform to get a 2:11:35.960 --> 2:11:38.280 much bigger bite on this flake that I'm about to 2:11:38.280 --> 2:11:41.200 take off. And what I'm gonna do too is just 2:11:41.360 --> 2:11:45.560 adjust the angle slightly. Dude, what would you given to 2:11:45.560 --> 2:11:48.000 sit around naps some flint with the Clovis Dudes? Man, 2:11:48.240 --> 2:11:49.840 do you think you'd be able to? Like? Do you 2:11:49.840 --> 2:11:51.760 think you'd be better they were? Do you think they'd 2:11:51.760 --> 2:11:54.680 smoke you? There is no modern flint napper that would 2:11:54.720 --> 2:11:57.440 ever approach what a prehistoric napper could have done with 2:11:57.480 --> 2:11:59.120 their skill because they weren't brought up with it, not 2:11:59.200 --> 2:12:01.000 brought up with it. And also to like, when you 2:12:01.240 --> 2:12:04.400 when your life depends on on a tool or a weapon, 2:12:04.840 --> 2:12:09.040 like you just understand it inherent intimate level that someone 2:12:09.080 --> 2:12:12.040 who isn't dependent on it just can't. So there's lots 2:12:12.040 --> 2:12:14.960 of foot nappers. The compound interest of it every like 2:12:15.040 --> 2:12:20.160 literally every ancestor you've ever had had always done it, 2:12:20.760 --> 2:12:22.560 and from the time you were a day old, it 2:12:22.640 --> 2:12:25.160 was happening around you. And and so there's modern flint 2:12:25.240 --> 2:12:27.600 nappers today, because there's quite a few hobby flint nappers. 2:12:27.640 --> 2:12:29.840 I think there's probably, I don't know, anywhere from eight 2:12:29.840 --> 2:12:34.280 to ten in North America. They say they think sometimes 2:12:34.280 --> 2:12:39.080 that they're better than ancient folks. Yeah, they're not right. 2:12:39.120 --> 2:12:42.360 They're not because because what they'll make a really pretty 2:12:42.400 --> 2:12:44.400 point and they'll compare it to Clovis ones and they'll 2:12:44.400 --> 2:12:46.160 be like, oh, look, my flaking is better than this 2:12:46.200 --> 2:12:48.960 Clovis point. Well, look, the Clovis person did not give 2:12:49.000 --> 2:12:51.320 a crap about how their point look. They wanted it 2:12:51.360 --> 2:12:54.120 to function. If they had wanted to make a pretty point, 2:12:54.160 --> 2:12:59.360 they would smoke any modern napper. Um so alright, so 2:12:59.400 --> 2:13:06.560 let's strike another really large flake. Cuff here, got his 2:13:06.600 --> 2:13:16.880 moose antler moose, Sorry, the tables, he's cocking back, microphone, 2:13:18.000 --> 2:13:21.320 by the go ahead. There's speed napping competitions, like like 2:13:21.360 --> 2:13:24.520 sitting down and make clothes point as fast as you can. Yeah, 2:13:24.560 --> 2:13:30.560 there are speed competitions. There are these things called nappins no, no, yeah, no, 2:13:30.680 --> 2:13:34.240 nappers get together across the continent and getting they sell 2:13:34.400 --> 2:13:37.840 and make stuff and yeah they're like little craft certain things. 2:13:37.880 --> 2:13:40.800 And yeah, napins are fun. Yeah, take away the k 2:13:40.920 --> 2:13:44.720 and I'd be down for that one. A. Are there 2:13:44.720 --> 2:13:49.960 examples of like ornamental points being found ornamental? Yeah? How 2:13:50.000 --> 2:13:52.400 do you know? So there are, because they'd be like 2:13:52.440 --> 2:13:56.720 a quality that wouldn't be utilitarian. Oh, I got you. Um, 2:13:56.800 --> 2:13:59.120 so we get Clovis points, may have quartz, crystal got 2:13:59.160 --> 2:14:01.160 this one. All these ones are flake, they're big, but 2:14:01.200 --> 2:14:05.960 they're snapping. Um, we get courtch crystal, Clovis points, um, 2:14:06.000 --> 2:14:08.520 which as far as I know, don't seem to have 2:14:08.560 --> 2:14:11.839 been used. So that could be some sort of ornamental 2:14:11.920 --> 2:14:15.960 or symbolic thing. Um. Some people think that the flute 2:14:15.960 --> 2:14:19.440 themselves are symbolic because it's so hard to do without 2:14:19.480 --> 2:14:22.520 breaking the point that it was some good omen for 2:14:22.560 --> 2:14:25.720 the hunt to come that if you successfully point. Yeah, 2:14:25.760 --> 2:14:27.880 you know, I'm just saying, this is the ideas out 2:14:27.920 --> 2:14:31.760 there after Yeah, that's that's what happens, you know, So 2:14:32.000 --> 2:14:35.040 who knows, but we'll never know, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, 2:14:35.200 --> 2:14:37.680 And it's it's fun to have ideas. So you could 2:14:37.720 --> 2:14:40.720 take these flakes, right, so we've got a nice size one. 2:14:41.120 --> 2:14:46.800 Compare it to you know, something that's midway. So you 2:14:46.840 --> 2:14:50.000 think this could potentially be living in here? Yes, yeah, 2:14:50.120 --> 2:14:52.360 I got a question for you. So you're using a 2:14:52.520 --> 2:14:55.280 rock to knock off a piece of that rock, You're 2:14:55.320 --> 2:15:00.640 using an antler to knock it off. Why why wouldn't 2:15:00.640 --> 2:15:04.800 you use like a modern metal hammer or some tool 2:15:04.880 --> 2:15:06.720 like that. Well, because he's trying to figure out how 2:15:06.800 --> 2:15:08.640 dudes used to do it. No, I'm saying, like, I'm 2:15:08.680 --> 2:15:12.120 asking what would happen? Basically, what are the reasons for 2:15:12.240 --> 2:15:15.920 not doing that? You could use like a copper bopper, 2:15:16.240 --> 2:15:18.840 which is what they're called copper boppers. That's what we 2:15:18.920 --> 2:15:21.960 call them. Nappins. Yeah, Nappins and Boppers. That's a good 2:15:21.960 --> 2:15:25.720 title for the show, Nappins and Boppers, remember that. It's Yeah, 2:15:25.800 --> 2:15:32.120 that's gonna be my podcast. I have my lawyer send over. 2:15:34.520 --> 2:15:38.200 But sometimes you do want to use modern tools if 2:15:38.840 --> 2:15:42.320 the question that you're testing isn't involved in the production 2:15:42.360 --> 2:15:44.960 of those tools. But if we're interested in sort of 2:15:45.000 --> 2:15:47.920 how quickly or how economic you can make a close point, 2:15:48.560 --> 2:15:51.080 you wouldn't want to use modern tools to answer that question. 2:15:51.200 --> 2:15:54.880 So you could use modern tools to flake, and people do. 2:15:54.960 --> 2:15:57.160 But let me with this one dated to Brody's question. 2:15:57.200 --> 2:16:01.760 If I said, you make me a the Clovis point 2:16:01.760 --> 2:16:03.440 as fast as you could possibly do it, and you 2:16:03.440 --> 2:16:08.440 can use whatever you want, um, would you be like, 2:16:08.440 --> 2:16:12.560 oh sweet, I'm gonna use my No, I would still 2:16:12.640 --> 2:16:15.880 use handler because as I rarely ever use modern tools, 2:16:16.080 --> 2:16:19.440 so I would probably suck with modern But you're never 2:16:19.440 --> 2:16:20.880 sitting around and being like, you know what would be 2:16:20.880 --> 2:16:25.960 great for this is aluminum. We got some aluminum points 2:16:26.040 --> 2:16:30.800 right there, so because aluminum weirdly has the same density 2:16:30.840 --> 2:16:32.959 as churt. That's just I wouldn't even know that that 2:16:33.000 --> 2:16:36.400 is aluminum. Its aluminum. I mean I would, I would. 2:16:36.560 --> 2:16:39.480 I thought you had painted. I thought you had painted 2:16:39.520 --> 2:16:42.760 some No, so this is a Clovis point I did 2:16:42.760 --> 2:16:47.400 out of chirt. This is that same Clovis point made 2:16:47.400 --> 2:16:50.760 out of aluminium or cast in aluminium, and it breaks 2:16:50.760 --> 2:16:53.400 the same way. No, I mean it'll bust like on 2:16:53.480 --> 2:16:58.560 an impact. Better on impact, oh much better on impact? Yeah, 2:16:58.640 --> 2:17:02.160 much better. But the advantage of aluminum for certain experimental 2:17:02.200 --> 2:17:05.160 tests as it doesn't break so even because it has 2:17:05.160 --> 2:17:08.000 the same density, like it has the same ballistics once 2:17:08.000 --> 2:17:10.920 it's in the air, um, and so so you can 2:17:10.920 --> 2:17:14.520 test other stuff break. Yeah, it's a pan the butt 2:17:14.520 --> 2:17:16.960 to keep making. Is that cast off that you took 2:17:16.959 --> 2:17:19.600 the stone and made a cast and cast? Yeah, I 2:17:19.720 --> 2:17:22.160 met My wife does a lot of thrift ng. Yeah. 2:17:23.600 --> 2:17:25.840 She'll go to like an estate sale and then come 2:17:25.840 --> 2:17:29.560 home with stuff that I don't want. And it feels 2:17:29.560 --> 2:17:35.440 like every single estate sale has arrowheads for sale. Is 2:17:35.440 --> 2:17:37.800 there any way like for the layman to look at 2:17:37.840 --> 2:17:39.760 something like that and identify if it was created by 2:17:39.800 --> 2:17:45.879 someone like you or someone five thousand years ago? Yes, yeah, definitely. 2:17:45.959 --> 2:17:50.800 So if there are little chips sort of you can 2:17:50.800 --> 2:17:53.080 see that there's this chip is still on there, it's 2:17:53.080 --> 2:17:55.600 just a flake that didn't come off all the way. 2:17:55.760 --> 2:17:59.440 That's from modern napping. Those little chips, while they occurred 2:17:59.440 --> 2:18:04.720 in the past, come off after ten thousand years or something. Um. 2:18:04.800 --> 2:18:06.520 So if you see those little chips, you know that's 2:18:06.560 --> 2:18:10.320 modern around the edge, around the edge. Um. Now, there 2:18:10.320 --> 2:18:13.240 are ways to get rid of those chips. And because 2:18:13.240 --> 2:18:16.840 there's been some cases of people, you know, being less 2:18:16.840 --> 2:18:20.920 than honest with the famous there's a guy that duped 2:18:20.920 --> 2:18:23.120 everybody at a bunch of Clovis points. His name was 2:18:23.160 --> 2:18:27.520 Woody something would he Blackwell duped a bunch of dupe 2:18:27.560 --> 2:18:30.480 some museums and shipped on Clovis points. Right. Well, he 2:18:31.360 --> 2:18:36.920 sold a group of of Clovis tools that he said 2:18:36.959 --> 2:18:40.039 was a Clovis cash. Um and this is all published 2:18:40.040 --> 2:18:44.520 in the New Yorker magazine. Um to uh collector nimforest 2:18:44.600 --> 2:18:47.440 fan and oh, I don't know the fan was involved 2:18:47.480 --> 2:18:50.600 in this cover him extent. That's like, that's like Spencer's 2:18:50.600 --> 2:18:54.920 best friend treasure. Did you find the treasure? But it 2:18:55.000 --> 2:18:58.160 was like sixty miles from here there you go? So 2:18:58.440 --> 2:19:02.440 what do he try to sell artifacts that he made 2:19:02.640 --> 2:19:05.200 as genuine Clovis artifacts of force? Fan? I think it 2:19:05.280 --> 2:19:11.560 was like dollars and um, the transaction went through and 2:19:11.840 --> 2:19:16.720 uh it was then discovered that these were modern replicas. 2:19:17.000 --> 2:19:18.600 How they figured out, Well, you know how he got 2:19:18.640 --> 2:19:21.520 around the you know how he got around the loose 2:19:21.520 --> 2:19:26.440 flake thing a rock tumbler really and you know how 2:19:26.440 --> 2:19:29.800 he got duped? Check how do you know the story 2:19:29.840 --> 2:19:34.320 better than me? Well he used Brazilian stone um as 2:19:34.600 --> 2:19:38.520 I'm sorry now how he got how he got uncovered? Yeah, 2:19:38.560 --> 2:19:40.480 so one of the Clovis points or maybe two of 2:19:40.520 --> 2:19:45.199 them were made from stone from Brazil, and uh, that stone, 2:19:45.240 --> 2:19:47.360 I guess only shines a certain way when you have 2:19:47.400 --> 2:19:50.039 a UV light over it, and so that like Clovis, 2:19:50.120 --> 2:19:53.440 folks in North America weren't using stone from Brazil. But 2:19:53.520 --> 2:19:55.480 I heard another part of yeah, there could be other 2:19:56.600 --> 2:19:58.520 One of the parts of the story is someone had 2:19:58.520 --> 2:20:01.760 a chemical analysis done on the point and they found 2:20:01.879 --> 2:20:05.680 some crazy coding material on it. Yeah, So then they 2:20:05.680 --> 2:20:07.760 were able to find out what the coding material was, 2:20:07.959 --> 2:20:10.400 went to the manufacture. Who does he sell the coding 2:20:10.440 --> 2:20:13.640 material to? One of his clients are the people to 2:20:13.720 --> 2:20:17.119 make rock tumblers? Yeah, And then it led to saying 2:20:17.120 --> 2:20:19.600 that he was because he's trying to create this like 2:20:19.959 --> 2:20:23.760 ten thousand years of laying around. Look, and do you 2:20:23.800 --> 2:20:27.920 know the collector Tony Baker? You ever hear him? I Tony, 2:20:28.040 --> 2:20:32.000 I stayed at his house. He's well, we probably did 2:20:32.480 --> 2:20:37.120 my owning. Yeah, no ship. Yeah, Tony, it was a 2:20:37.200 --> 2:20:40.280 huge loss when he passed. I guarantee he slept in 2:20:40.280 --> 2:20:44.280 the same gustro many times. He told me a story 2:20:44.280 --> 2:20:47.080 where he was at in the state sale and saw 2:20:47.200 --> 2:20:50.600 a fulsome point Bolo tie. Did you hear the story? No, 2:20:50.680 --> 2:20:52.720 I have not heard this thing. He said, that's real. 2:20:53.879 --> 2:20:56.520 Bought the bolo tie for a couple of bucks, took 2:20:56.520 --> 2:20:58.640 the stone off, and on the back of the stone 2:20:58.879 --> 2:21:00.360 was you know how they put like why it out 2:21:00.720 --> 2:21:03.160 and in a label. Yeah, it was a museum like 2:21:03.360 --> 2:21:05.959 it was missing from your museum and he found the museum. Yeah, 2:21:06.080 --> 2:21:09.280 that's awesome. It was a museum collection piece that gone 2:21:09.320 --> 2:21:11.560 missing and someone put it on a Bolo tipe, you know, 2:21:13.560 --> 2:21:18.120 and hiding in plain sight. He said, one look and 2:21:18.160 --> 2:21:19.959 he just knew. He's like, just something about it. He's like, 2:21:20.240 --> 2:21:22.879 because that's the real point. Yeah, no, that's it. And 2:21:23.360 --> 2:21:25.360 one other way to get those little chips off, not 2:21:25.480 --> 2:21:29.200 that I'm condoning fraud in any way, is you can 2:21:29.240 --> 2:21:33.080 put the napped point in water and then put it 2:21:33.080 --> 2:21:36.040 in the freezer and then when the ice gets under 2:21:36.040 --> 2:21:39.160 that little chip, it pops it off and then you know, 2:21:39.600 --> 2:21:42.039 so those chips are going to be around the outer edge. 2:21:42.200 --> 2:21:45.920 You're saying, um, well, if the flake gets driven across 2:21:45.959 --> 2:21:47.520 the face of your tool, you might get him in 2:21:47.560 --> 2:21:49.640 the middle too. But either way you can get him 2:21:49.680 --> 2:21:51.160 off if you know what you're doing it. But it 2:21:51.200 --> 2:21:54.280 has it'll look fresh it'll look fresh. And I have 2:21:54.360 --> 2:21:56.879 never found anything of significance in the field. I would 2:21:56.879 --> 2:21:59.720 just like to say that. So because that's a danger 2:21:59.760 --> 2:22:02.440 for me, because well, because I can make this stuff right, 2:22:03.000 --> 2:22:06.240 and so I always have to be careful that, you know, 2:22:06.280 --> 2:22:09.800 anything I make doesn't end up in the archaeological record. 2:22:10.920 --> 2:22:14.720 And so UM, when I make pieces, I always signed 2:22:14.760 --> 2:22:19.080 them with a diamondscribe. UM. So if anyone ever does 2:22:19.160 --> 2:22:22.320 microscopic analysis on it, um, you'll see my initials in 2:22:22.360 --> 2:22:26.120 the year on the piece. Um, so they never get 2:22:26.120 --> 2:22:32.120 mixed up. So okay, speaking of which, Um, you know, 2:22:32.200 --> 2:22:34.080 before I came, I did a little research. I saw 2:22:34.120 --> 2:22:36.360 you have a birthday coming up, so I thought I 2:22:36.360 --> 2:22:39.600 would make that little birthday gift. Um. So you can 2:22:41.600 --> 2:22:50.160 just unroll it a little careful, oh man, explain what 2:22:50.160 --> 2:22:52.360 we're looking at here. So this is a type of 2:22:52.440 --> 2:22:55.640 knife called a salutary and laurel leaf. And and this 2:22:55.760 --> 2:22:58.800 is probably one of the most difficult things to do 2:22:58.959 --> 2:23:02.360 in three million years of napping. Um. They're super thin. 2:23:03.120 --> 2:23:06.680 The flaking is really described as is very bold. You 2:23:06.720 --> 2:23:09.879 see all the flakes are really large. And uh, this 2:23:09.920 --> 2:23:12.200 was a style of of knife for point that was 2:23:12.240 --> 2:23:15.760 made about eighteen to twenty one thousand years ago in 2:23:15.800 --> 2:23:19.200 Europe yep. And it's thought to be the pinnacle of 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:23.879 stone tool working and so even cooler than it depends. 2:23:23.959 --> 2:23:26.400 It's just who you ask. But they're pretty cool, so 2:23:26.440 --> 2:23:30.879 I thought happy, But yeah, not at all. It's gorgeous. 2:23:31.280 --> 2:23:34.280 So are you gonna call the salutary and laurel leaf? 2:23:35.840 --> 2:23:37.760 And it's signed. So if I see on saw the bees, 2:23:40.720 --> 2:23:45.280 that's right. Where's where is it signed? So it's signed. 2:23:45.560 --> 2:23:49.240 You have to look at it just right. But um 2:23:49.320 --> 2:23:53.560 on this flake scar, there's m i e in around this. 2:23:53.600 --> 2:23:58.200 One could steve like a Christmas hamd with that thing. 2:23:58.680 --> 2:24:02.720 Oh yeah, it's gonna be her yeah, or mammoth. It's 2:24:02.720 --> 2:24:04.400 gonna be here with it. Yeah. No, I don't want 2:24:04.400 --> 2:24:08.480 to mess it up and drop it. I still don't 2:24:08.520 --> 2:24:11.560 see it. We may need direct life. But so you 2:24:11.600 --> 2:24:13.480 do it really fine? Yes, I do it fine, so 2:24:13.520 --> 2:24:16.000 it doesn't sort of detract from but it's in there. 2:24:16.080 --> 2:24:19.680 It's in there. Okay, thank you. Man's gorgeous. Tell me 2:24:19.720 --> 2:24:22.760 against slutree and what leaf laureally because it's the shape 2:24:22.760 --> 2:24:28.240 of laurel. Yeah, now I just stab that the brody. 2:24:29.600 --> 2:24:32.880 It did work. Well, so that's the thing I was 2:24:32.920 --> 2:24:35.120 so nervous bringing because I made one for Current too, 2:24:35.120 --> 2:24:37.640 because she's done so much work like getting everything set 2:24:37.720 --> 2:24:41.360 and um, she has a Clovis one. Um. And so 2:24:41.480 --> 2:24:47.080 I'm gonna ask this for Steve is KREM's nicer. Well, 2:24:47.120 --> 2:24:53.400 they're different cultures. This is this is hafted onto Antler 2:24:54.080 --> 2:24:58.199 like a split fork. Um. You can imagine like stab 2:24:58.200 --> 2:25:00.960 Broughty between the ribs, turn around and give Larry Cohen Merlein, 2:25:02.080 --> 2:25:06.600 Larry Moan curly with those ant guy in front of 2:25:06.640 --> 2:25:11.040 you with the he'd be like he'd bleed to death blind. Yeah, 2:25:11.720 --> 2:25:18.680 just just him. I mean, already pinned filler. All right, 2:25:18.760 --> 2:25:22.240 let's let's progress along. Let's get to the magic part. 2:25:22.400 --> 2:25:25.920 Yeah alright, Well I want to see you do the 2:25:25.959 --> 2:25:31.320 thing that has baffled anthropologists about why did they knock 2:25:31.760 --> 2:25:34.480 the thing when there's a twenty five chance just going 2:25:34.520 --> 2:25:36.440 to ruin the whole different thing. So you've already done 2:25:36.480 --> 2:25:38.920 all the work. Yes, I brought several because the other 2:25:38.959 --> 2:25:40.720 thing too about flint napping is you want to bring 2:25:40.760 --> 2:25:42.800 backups because if you break it, you can quick just 2:25:42.840 --> 2:25:45.440 like pull out another one. You'll get to go. So 2:25:45.720 --> 2:25:48.000 we've got, you know, different stages, and I've got one 2:25:48.040 --> 2:25:50.360 that's basically ready to flute. So I do need to 2:25:50.360 --> 2:25:52.200 do a little bit of preparation on this thing to 2:25:52.520 --> 2:25:56.959 get what's called the fluting nipple. Yeah, that's a good 2:25:56.959 --> 2:25:59.120 title for the show, the Fluting Nipple. That's gonna be 2:25:59.160 --> 2:26:03.400 my second podcast. Um. But so they'll just take a 2:26:03.440 --> 2:26:05.680 second to get this going. But what's this thing they 2:26:05.720 --> 2:26:11.280 talk about. Clay had some guy talking about that they 2:26:11.280 --> 2:26:18.920 may be used lever no evidence for that, but it's 2:26:18.920 --> 2:26:21.200 just reverse engineered or whatever you call it. They're like 2:26:21.320 --> 2:26:24.680 it would work. So there's a Flinton napper, Bob Patton 2:26:24.680 --> 2:26:27.640 who I mentioned earlier, who you can he could make 2:26:28.040 --> 2:26:30.200 Clovis points and Fulsom points and sort of do them 2:26:30.240 --> 2:26:33.320 the way I do and just hit him directly. You 2:26:33.360 --> 2:26:37.080 don't need a lever um. So you're not buying it. No, 2:26:37.120 --> 2:26:39.960 I'm not buying it. Okay, So you got your clos 2:26:40.000 --> 2:26:42.600 point and it's pretty well like a clous point, except 2:26:42.600 --> 2:26:47.920 for it's missing the diagnostic fluke channel. Flukes that run 2:26:48.040 --> 2:26:53.080 the length the con the concave channels that will run 2:26:53.120 --> 2:26:55.320 the length of the point and give it its signature. 2:26:55.480 --> 2:26:59.800 Look it's significance and then not only that, but diagnostic 2:27:00.200 --> 2:27:03.240 like no one else made them like that. Um, that's 2:27:03.280 --> 2:27:09.120 also untrue. So who else is making them so amazingly 2:27:09.280 --> 2:27:13.960 in the Saudi Arabian Neolithic? Okay, local folks, oh, no, 2:27:15.360 --> 2:27:19.560 go on, But the Saudi Arabian Neolithic they are making 2:27:19.600 --> 2:27:22.880 and fluting points. So just in the same way that 2:27:23.040 --> 2:27:26.200 like birds and bats and insects all can fly. But 2:27:26.240 --> 2:27:28.200 that doesn't mean they're all causes. They're not because this 2:27:28.320 --> 2:27:31.800 convergent evolution. Same thing in stone tool technology. Uh, you 2:27:31.840 --> 2:27:34.520 can get convergent evolution really like they arrive at the 2:27:34.560 --> 2:27:38.400 same the same solution. Um. Alright, So what I'm gonna 2:27:38.400 --> 2:27:40.039 do now is I'm actually gonna start to pressure flake 2:27:40.080 --> 2:27:41.800 this a little bit now. Before you do, I want 2:27:41.800 --> 2:27:44.320 to ask you a couple of things. Yeah, how long 2:27:44.480 --> 2:27:49.680 were you at this before you tried this? Probably seven 2:27:49.760 --> 2:27:53.480 or eight years before you tried knocking out, before you 2:27:53.520 --> 2:27:56.360 tried fluting a point? Yes? Yeah? And is it easier 2:27:57.440 --> 2:28:00.200 to flute a Clovis point than a Folesome point or 2:28:00.200 --> 2:28:03.080 is it the same? Hard there is different because the 2:28:03.120 --> 2:28:05.879 falsome point runs all the way to the end. It 2:28:05.920 --> 2:28:07.879 does run a presumably got to do some more work 2:28:07.920 --> 2:28:10.040 on it afterwards. Right, Well, so there's a there's two 2:28:10.120 --> 2:28:14.200 issues there. Um. With fulsome, you in some ways have 2:28:14.200 --> 2:28:16.480 a better chance of success because you're doing a lot 2:28:16.480 --> 2:28:21.400 more preparation ahead of time to get that long flute. Um. 2:28:21.440 --> 2:28:24.320 The other issue is because falsome points are shorter, you 2:28:24.320 --> 2:28:27.400 don't have as much bending um in the point, which 2:28:27.440 --> 2:28:30.800 could break it. Now. Fulsome points are really hard to flute. 2:28:30.800 --> 2:28:32.920 So just like clos, you make one of those, Um, 2:28:33.000 --> 2:28:37.360 I've got one here we can see, and you knock 2:28:37.440 --> 2:28:39.760 those out. I knocked those out. That's beautiful, man. The 2:28:39.760 --> 2:28:42.120 problem with falsom those it takes more time, like a 2:28:42.200 --> 2:28:47.520 lot more time. That's a beautiful point. Way more time, yeah, 2:28:47.520 --> 2:28:52.400 because it's you're doing so much preparation to basically create 2:28:52.480 --> 2:28:55.240 a morphology on the point so you can get those 2:28:55.280 --> 2:28:57.640 long channels. It just takes a much longer. And you 2:28:57.640 --> 2:28:59.480 know how you should talk close about how they weren't 2:28:59.520 --> 2:29:02.240 mammoth on. Yeah, these guys are bison hunters. They are 2:29:02.280 --> 2:29:05.880 definitely bison hunters. And Clovis were bison hunters too. Yeah, 2:29:06.160 --> 2:29:09.360 So and that's the thing. We just going back to 2:29:09.400 --> 2:29:14.800 the Clovis hunting. We get statistically more impact scars with 2:29:14.879 --> 2:29:19.039 Clovis points associated with bison than we do with mammoth. 2:29:19.800 --> 2:29:21.960 And the reason for that is because they are hunting 2:29:21.959 --> 2:29:26.960 bison and not hunting mammoth. So all right, let me 2:29:27.040 --> 2:29:31.000 just that's a beautiful point. Man. Okay, you're back at 2:29:31.040 --> 2:29:35.440 the now. There you got you got like not an 2:29:35.440 --> 2:29:39.800 early man tool. So while it depends so not Clovis 2:29:39.879 --> 2:29:43.520 is man off copper, we actually get the earliest metal 2:29:43.560 --> 2:29:46.400 tools anywhere in the world in North America from the 2:29:46.400 --> 2:29:49.680 Great Lakes. Yeah, exactly. It's called the Old Copper culture 2:29:49.720 --> 2:29:53.080 and earlier. Um. Now, I could use an antler time 2:29:53.160 --> 2:29:55.960 to do this, but you have to constantly re sharpen 2:29:56.000 --> 2:29:59.640 antler times pressure blakings. It's just easier. So where's the time? 2:29:59.720 --> 2:30:03.160 Do it'll wear the antler time down? Yes? Yeah, And 2:30:03.160 --> 2:30:05.320 so you just gotta keep getting it the right shape, 2:30:05.360 --> 2:30:08.400 so you're shaping the stone and the tool. Yeah, the butt, 2:30:08.879 --> 2:30:11.200 I'm with you. You have to get this fluting nipple, 2:30:11.320 --> 2:30:15.560 just the right shape fluting nipples, because when it's all prepared, 2:30:15.600 --> 2:30:16.880 you'll look at it. I don't know if it looks 2:30:16.879 --> 2:30:22.520 like a nipple, but that's what they call it just 2:30:22.600 --> 2:30:25.240 that motion alone is just really interesting. I mean you're 2:30:25.280 --> 2:30:27.560 just kind of like pressing down on the edges. Well. 2:30:27.560 --> 2:30:31.119 Pressure flaking, unlike percussion, which is what I was doing earlier, 2:30:31.240 --> 2:30:33.879 does take a little bit of strength, especially if you're 2:30:33.959 --> 2:30:38.400 driving flakes um across the face of whatever piece you're 2:30:39.360 --> 2:30:41.800 flint napping. So I'm gonna drive a few pieces off 2:30:41.920 --> 2:30:48.640 right now. You're gonna not do pressure, but you're gonna 2:30:48.680 --> 2:30:50.600 do some striking. No, no, I'm going to do pressure 2:30:50.920 --> 2:30:53.080 um where I'm gonna really just push these things far 2:30:53.160 --> 2:30:58.560 across the face. So really it's all on the legs now. Oh, 2:30:58.879 --> 2:31:01.920 Like you're getting your hand hour by Like basically you're 2:31:01.959 --> 2:31:07.080 like Suzanne Summer's net thigh mass right now. I don't 2:31:07.080 --> 2:31:11.400 know if I should be as old a references comes 2:31:11.440 --> 2:31:15.320 in the eighties or earlier. So you're like pressing on 2:31:15.360 --> 2:31:21.520 the top side of that it's breaking off, its breaking 2:31:21.560 --> 2:31:24.640 off the bottom side that more time. Sorry, I'm too 2:31:24.640 --> 2:31:29.280 busy thinking Susanne the Summer's thighs, I don't know. So 2:31:29.280 --> 2:31:33.040 so you're just basically pressing on like the top side 2:31:33.080 --> 2:31:35.640 and it's busting off the bottoms. Yeah, So what I'm doing, Yeah, 2:31:35.640 --> 2:31:39.680 I'm pushing on the edge and basically I'm pulling the 2:31:39.720 --> 2:31:43.520 flake and then but your strength coming like you're like 2:31:43.840 --> 2:31:46.280 pitching it between your legs just to drive your hands together. 2:31:46.360 --> 2:31:49.480 That's exactly right. So so a lot of pressure, a 2:31:49.480 --> 2:31:53.560 lot of pressure. So let's see here we do any 2:31:53.560 --> 2:31:58.360 of those nappins and in bloodshed always they get the 2:31:58.440 --> 2:32:01.879 drinking at those. Yeah, I mean like there are some 2:32:01.959 --> 2:32:06.200 tear We actually just uh finished the survey where we 2:32:06.280 --> 2:32:11.720 surveyed flint napper injuries from around the world, and they're 2:32:11.840 --> 2:32:15.640 real bad. I mean, people are getting cuts on every 2:32:15.640 --> 2:32:18.280 parther body. People are using hitting moose bullets in and 2:32:18.320 --> 2:32:22.840 their nuts like it's get any for moral artery. Uh, 2:32:23.040 --> 2:32:25.560 I can see messing around some between your legs and 2:32:25.640 --> 2:32:30.119 sharp things. People getting flakes in their eyes. Yeah, so 2:32:30.200 --> 2:32:33.680 we're gonna we're doing the statistical analysis now to look 2:32:33.720 --> 2:32:36.720 at patterns and and where people are hurting themselves the most, 2:32:36.760 --> 2:32:40.080 and so all right, hold on, Yeah, you might be 2:32:40.080 --> 2:32:44.080 able to come up with something that relates back to 2:32:44.240 --> 2:32:46.360 early man would be like, you know the reason that 2:32:46.400 --> 2:32:49.600 they were like this was I read this thing. I 2:32:49.600 --> 2:32:54.520 can't remember what book it was. The guy was talking about, Um, 2:32:54.600 --> 2:32:59.480 the injury sweets that they would see on neander Thal bones, 2:33:00.640 --> 2:33:03.279 and this guy became curious about the suites of injuries 2:33:03.280 --> 2:33:08.240 they would see on them, all the fractures and oh that. 2:33:08.400 --> 2:33:12.000 And he got to talking to a physician who works 2:33:12.000 --> 2:33:18.120 on bull riders and they found this, like, uh, like 2:33:18.160 --> 2:33:21.720 a direct correlation between the the types of bone fractures 2:33:21.720 --> 2:33:24.680 on the hander dolls and the types of bron fractures 2:33:24.720 --> 2:33:27.760 on bull riders. And he came up with this idea 2:33:27.800 --> 2:33:30.080 that they had what he had described as a confrontational 2:33:30.120 --> 2:33:33.320 style of hunting, like that they're in there mixing it up. 2:33:33.360 --> 2:33:36.680 You know, maybe they took one shot with something and 2:33:36.680 --> 2:33:39.320 then jumped and then jumped right in. Okay, I'm gonna 2:33:39.360 --> 2:33:41.360 jab a little bit with this stone point and everybody's 2:33:41.400 --> 2:33:47.640 gonna pilot. I'm gonna get him pissed with this stone 2:33:47.680 --> 2:33:52.400 point his game. Remember, we don't want him to move 2:33:52.440 --> 2:33:55.560 too much. So lots of hemorrhoids too, because the bull 2:33:55.640 --> 2:33:59.880 riders got those. Yeah yeah, all that hem roidal tries 2:34:00.000 --> 2:34:04.320 tissue in decays over the years. Man. Alright, so we're 2:34:04.360 --> 2:34:06.520 almost there to flute this thing. And what's that nipple 2:34:06.560 --> 2:34:09.240 called again? The fluting nipple. I should be able to 2:34:09.240 --> 2:34:12.280 remember that. All right, So now this flute probably will 2:34:12.320 --> 2:34:15.119 go to about there because you have to knock out 2:34:15.160 --> 2:34:18.920 two flutes, so that you're just prepared the first flute, 2:34:19.000 --> 2:34:21.560 or you've you've prepared both flutes. No, no no, this is 2:34:21.560 --> 2:34:23.119 the first one. Okay, So then you're gonna go back 2:34:23.160 --> 2:34:26.040 to the drawboard and prepared and do another nipple exactly. 2:34:26.080 --> 2:34:29.240 And is your nipples specific to the face you're working on? Yes, okay, 2:34:29.600 --> 2:34:34.200 so you've nippled it for the what right now? Is 2:34:34.240 --> 2:34:36.960 the top or bottom when it's laying on your legs? 2:34:37.320 --> 2:34:40.080 It will be for like the flute is gonna be 2:34:40.160 --> 2:34:42.039 left laying on your leg is gonna blast off into 2:34:42.040 --> 2:34:43.680 the air. The flute will come off my leg or 2:34:43.840 --> 2:34:47.760 be against left one. Okay, you all right tell me 2:34:47.760 --> 2:34:49.440 before you do it. Yes, I will. And just because 2:34:49.440 --> 2:34:51.840 it's a bit always risky, I just want to make 2:34:51.879 --> 2:34:57.840 sure it's right now. What, Um, there's a high likelihood 2:34:57.840 --> 2:35:02.960 this will fail. Um could be it's like but I mean, 2:35:03.160 --> 2:35:05.280 my I haven't messed up in a while, so I 2:35:05.280 --> 2:35:08.440 probably just screwed myself by saying that. Um. But which 2:35:08.440 --> 2:35:15.160 is why I always bring extras. Failure success failure. So 2:35:16.240 --> 2:35:19.000 the failure you mean that whole thing just breaks. Yes, 2:35:19.040 --> 2:35:23.400 the whole thing will just shatter. If it doesn't break, 2:35:23.400 --> 2:35:28.600 you can happen either way. Are you doing it right now? No? No, no, 2:35:28.680 --> 2:35:32.039 I mean that you always strike off the flute here. 2:35:32.040 --> 2:35:33.960 I'm just trying to get the angle a little bit. 2:35:34.959 --> 2:35:37.400 There we go. That's much better. I could definitely see 2:35:37.400 --> 2:35:39.760 how you'd cut yourself pretty good. Mess around with the stuff. 2:35:39.800 --> 2:35:42.320 Oh yeah, no, it can be real bad. So could 2:35:42.360 --> 2:35:45.840 you I'm sure you've thought about this many many times. 2:35:45.840 --> 2:35:49.039 Could you describe, like, what do you think the situation 2:35:50.000 --> 2:35:57.080 this is happening in back in like Clovis times and 2:35:57.120 --> 2:36:02.039 I found a juncture he's getting out. Are you in 2:36:02.040 --> 2:36:07.880 a relaxed situation like sitting on a knob looking over her? Well, 2:36:07.920 --> 2:36:09.720 you wouldn't be. I don't think you'd be making these 2:36:10.120 --> 2:36:13.320 like in the moment. Well, the Maze site, the MASA 2:36:13.440 --> 2:36:16.320 site that we we had some people on top of 2:36:16.360 --> 2:36:18.120 the Mace site and the ma site they think is 2:36:18.120 --> 2:36:22.280 a flint nap and hang out hundreds like a little 2:36:22.320 --> 2:36:26.600 maze top. No sign of campgrounds, like, no signs of 2:36:26.640 --> 2:36:30.920 tent rings. It was a little lookout perch, hundreds and 2:36:31.000 --> 2:36:34.360 hundreds and hundreds of points, thousands of flakes? Were you 2:36:34.400 --> 2:36:37.320 there with? I was at that site with okay now 2:36:37.320 --> 2:36:41.320 with my okay um because Boss Meltzer I think was 2:36:41.400 --> 2:36:44.480 up there too. But their theory there is it was 2:36:44.520 --> 2:36:46.800 you could sit up there and double dip because it's 2:36:46.800 --> 2:36:49.360 a lookout. But they're like, it just seems like people 2:36:49.400 --> 2:36:51.320 sat up there in nap flint. It was like too 2:36:51.320 --> 2:36:53.800 far from water or something. Again, you had to walk 2:36:53.920 --> 2:36:56.360 up on this high little lookout, and they think it 2:36:56.440 --> 2:37:00.520 was like the boys up there shooting the ship, napping 2:37:01.040 --> 2:37:03.080 waiting to see if something comes through. It was a 2:37:03.160 --> 2:37:07.440 nap in. Yeah, that's right, the first one, well, early 2:37:07.840 --> 2:37:11.600 early napping. Yeah, right, you're ready to go. I'm going 2:37:11.640 --> 2:37:12.959 to get ready to go for it. I've never done 2:37:13.000 --> 2:37:15.120 it with wires and stuff. Can you do a drum roll? 2:37:16.280 --> 2:37:21.039 You can? Oh yeah, take that thing off. You're really 2:37:21.040 --> 2:37:23.520 getting hung up in there. Man. It looks so unclosed, 2:37:23.560 --> 2:37:26.200 like they have that headphone on the headset on. Alright, 2:37:26.320 --> 2:37:29.400 So oh tell me what you can do before you 2:37:29.440 --> 2:37:31.760 do it. So what I'm gonna do is you have 2:37:31.800 --> 2:37:33.200 to when you flute it, you have to hold it 2:37:33.240 --> 2:37:37.119 a different way because you want to basically drive the 2:37:37.120 --> 2:37:41.240 flute off but cause as little bending as possible. So 2:37:41.280 --> 2:37:43.040 if I was to hit the flute off just straight 2:37:43.040 --> 2:37:47.160 down with the point flat, that would basically cause this 2:37:47.240 --> 2:37:50.680 thing to snap. Now, by holding the point vertically, I'm 2:37:50.720 --> 2:37:54.720 hitting straight down along the length of the point, which 2:37:54.720 --> 2:37:58.200 doesn't cause as much sort of bending. You gotta wrapped 2:37:58.240 --> 2:38:00.320 in there obviously, so you don't just get ask your 2:38:00.360 --> 2:38:03.360 hand to bits. Yeah, because it's just a it's like 2:38:03.480 --> 2:38:05.840 grip and protection. If that happens. Though, it's a shame 2:38:05.879 --> 2:38:07.960 that this is a podcast, like because my demos for 2:38:08.040 --> 2:38:10.000 my classes and stuff, that's all they're waiting for me 2:38:10.160 --> 2:38:13.560 to hurt myself. Um and so see, I'm just I'm 2:38:13.640 --> 2:38:15.480 cheering for you right now. Man, I want this will 2:38:15.480 --> 2:38:18.360 be the first time I've ever seen a flute as 2:38:18.440 --> 2:38:20.360 much as I've talked about. Oh god, no, I feel 2:38:20.520 --> 2:38:26.720 like there's pressure. I don't want a positive vibes. Okay, 2:38:26.720 --> 2:38:28.480 he's getting ready to hit his fluting nipple with a 2:38:28.520 --> 2:38:30.480 moose and elk candlery moose. You know, I don't know 2:38:30.480 --> 2:38:35.879 what the hell this is. It's that's how you're gonna 2:38:35.879 --> 2:38:38.000 do it. Yeah, So and I do a few practice 2:38:38.400 --> 2:38:47.360 swinging that like he's got a black jack and no 2:38:47.640 --> 2:38:55.440 ship really perfect, Look at that. That was badass, man. 2:38:57.400 --> 2:38:59.600 So you do all those practice runs basically a line 2:38:59.640 --> 2:39:02.959 everything hang up, um, and then you just you just 2:39:03.760 --> 2:39:06.280 sort of just tap it so I can do the 2:39:06.320 --> 2:39:08.920 other one now the other side and wrist breaking it again. 2:39:09.640 --> 2:39:14.360 You can just picture up on the maze site like, yeah, well, 2:39:14.400 --> 2:39:18.040 you know it's funny. Dave Meltzer, right, who's been on 2:39:18.080 --> 2:39:21.640 this August show. He worked at a site as a 2:39:21.680 --> 2:39:27.000 teenager called Thunderbird in Virginia. And at Thunderbird it was 2:39:27.600 --> 2:39:30.840 next to a river and they were making close points. 2:39:30.879 --> 2:39:36.480 Now the river gently flooded and basically covered and buried 2:39:36.520 --> 2:39:39.480 everything perfectly at this Thunderbird site, so much so that 2:39:39.520 --> 2:39:41.400 you can like kind of see where people were sitting 2:39:41.400 --> 2:39:44.480 with the rocks around them. Yeah. Now, at one of 2:39:44.520 --> 2:39:48.240 the spots where someone was sitting, you find the base 2:39:48.320 --> 2:39:54.160 of a Clovis point and the tip it's thirty away. Basically, 2:39:54.200 --> 2:40:00.800 someone got piste. They broke their clothes point and shucked it. Um. Yeah, 2:40:01.400 --> 2:40:03.960 weren't they able to somewhere like at Lindenmeyer something they 2:40:03.959 --> 2:40:08.160 were able to match some of the channel flakes. Oh yeah, man, 2:40:08.280 --> 2:40:10.120 all right, so I guess I'll I'll do the other 2:40:10.160 --> 2:40:13.280 one now, Okay, the second one is gonna be harder 2:40:13.320 --> 2:40:16.160 because it's thinner. No it is, yeah, so more pressure. 2:40:16.920 --> 2:40:18.160 It needs to be a different kind of like a 2:40:18.160 --> 2:40:20.640 better drum roll. Do they ever do a double drum roll? 2:40:20.680 --> 2:40:25.520 Two people doing it? One thing too, is I'm gonna 2:40:25.520 --> 2:40:27.480 have to do a little bit more work builds right 2:40:27.520 --> 2:40:30.959 like one guy starts, another drummer comes in. I'll have 2:40:31.000 --> 2:40:32.520 to do just a little bit more work because this 2:40:32.560 --> 2:40:35.560 is a little flat and when it's when it's flat, 2:40:35.640 --> 2:40:37.440 the flakes don't go as far. So what I'm gonna 2:40:37.440 --> 2:40:39.600 do is I'm gonna drive flakes off and basically try 2:40:39.640 --> 2:40:45.320 to create a little convexity, little a little hump. Oh 2:40:45.400 --> 2:40:48.840 this is a deep, dark, well flinting nat man. Well, 2:40:48.879 --> 2:40:51.640 I think this is the thing, right, is all this 2:40:51.840 --> 2:40:54.480 making the technology is really great? But what where the 2:40:54.480 --> 2:40:56.640 big breakthroughs have come since we founded the labb At 2:40:56.720 --> 2:40:59.960 Kent State is figuring out how this stuff was used 2:41:00.720 --> 2:41:03.279 and more and more we need to start like getting 2:41:03.320 --> 2:41:07.520 this stuff out into situations where hunters are using it 2:41:07.640 --> 2:41:11.280 and so we can understand the science behind That's how 2:41:11.320 --> 2:41:17.480 this works because it's different like have people use stuff 2:41:17.680 --> 2:41:22.879 you've made to kill deer for example. No, So everything 2:41:22.879 --> 2:41:25.240 we've done has been in the lab. So what we 2:41:25.320 --> 2:41:28.440 really need now is to balance those very controlled lab 2:41:28.480 --> 2:41:33.520 experiments with the reality of actual hunting. So, and this 2:41:33.560 --> 2:41:37.120 goes back to the mammoth as as well. So what 2:41:37.200 --> 2:41:38.840 we would love to do, and if you guys are 2:41:38.920 --> 2:41:42.160 game and we can somehow get access to it, is 2:41:42.520 --> 2:41:45.160 when an elephant dies, either at a zoo or if 2:41:45.160 --> 2:41:49.360 there's some cul somewhere, um, I will make all of 2:41:49.360 --> 2:41:52.360 the Clovis weapons and tools and we could hurl them 2:41:52.440 --> 2:41:55.680 into that dead elephant to see how well they penetrate. 2:41:55.879 --> 2:41:59.960 And you'll get someone to volunteer that up on the career. 2:42:00.600 --> 2:42:03.160 And so but if we could, if we could, potendially, 2:42:03.160 --> 2:42:07.040 we would learn scientifically so much because we don't even 2:42:07.080 --> 2:42:11.360 really understand the intercostal distance between the ribs of things 2:42:11.440 --> 2:42:14.160 like elephant, how much space is there on average between 2:42:14.320 --> 2:42:16.800 prints and stuff like how deep is it to the heart. 2:42:16.879 --> 2:42:21.359 We could find no evidence or data on the distance 2:42:21.440 --> 2:42:23.959 from the outside of an elephant to its lungs or 2:42:23.959 --> 2:42:26.680 its heart or deliver all that stuff needs to be measured. 2:42:27.280 --> 2:42:29.920 So if you guys were game at some point, we 2:42:29.959 --> 2:42:32.280 would love to do that. We would create all the 2:42:32.320 --> 2:42:34.879 tools and you guys could spend all day hurling at 2:42:34.920 --> 2:42:37.039 an elephant. Well, I just gotta find a zookeeper with 2:42:37.080 --> 2:42:43.160 a dead elephant freezer tag here in North America or uh, 2:42:43.560 --> 2:42:44.840 you know what you want to listen to. We did 2:42:44.920 --> 2:42:47.400 a podcast episode with a guy named Dr ed Asby. 2:42:47.520 --> 2:42:49.920 Here's not a doctor, like he's like a medical doctor, 2:42:50.640 --> 2:42:55.640 but anyways, he he um to test a lot of 2:42:55.640 --> 2:42:58.000 his stuff and he was looking for that same thing, 2:42:58.000 --> 2:42:59.480 like how can you get a bunch of stuff? He 2:42:59.480 --> 2:43:03.200 would go to where they're doing game farm cling. Yeah, yeah, 2:43:03.360 --> 2:43:05.680 and at game farm cling sites he was able to 2:43:05.720 --> 2:43:08.359 like launch projectiles into stuff that was going to die anyways, 2:43:08.360 --> 2:43:10.000 whether he was there or not. Kind of thing. Well, 2:43:10.040 --> 2:43:12.640 there was a situation George Frizzen, who was a wylming 2:43:12.720 --> 2:43:16.879 rancher also a scientist, I don't know. Yeah, he published, 2:43:17.120 --> 2:43:18.840 but he was an archaeolgis in the National Academy of 2:43:18.879 --> 2:43:21.400 Sciences as well, and he he went over to Africa 2:43:21.400 --> 2:43:24.720 and through Clovis points at mammoths, but for whatever reason 2:43:25.200 --> 2:43:28.720 did not record elephant. Yeah, mamoths are dead, You're right. Yeah. 2:43:28.959 --> 2:43:31.480 He did not record how deep they penetrated or anything 2:43:31.520 --> 2:43:34.840 like that. He basically just said, like they can puncture 2:43:34.840 --> 2:43:37.560 the hide a little bit. Um that the papers kind 2:43:37.560 --> 2:43:42.439 of strange, but like you're like, he but what about Yeah, 2:43:42.600 --> 2:43:45.120 but it was nine and so maybe it just it 2:43:45.160 --> 2:43:48.039 wasn't as rigorous. But so anyway, the point is we 2:43:48.120 --> 2:43:53.000 need to hurle Clovis points at dead elephants to better understandings, 2:43:53.040 --> 2:43:57.760 like a very solvable problem. Yeah, and it does. Um, alright, 2:43:57.760 --> 2:43:59.440 so I'm just gonna do some pressure flak in here. 2:44:00.080 --> 2:44:04.840 We had a great uh uh professor at the University 2:44:04.840 --> 2:44:08.240 of Montana. We're taking early people's in Montana, their native 2:44:08.240 --> 2:44:10.360 people's in Montana. That sounds like a good one. It 2:44:10.440 --> 2:44:13.000 was a good one. But one of the first examples 2:44:13.120 --> 2:44:16.840 just kind of get people's heads thinking about the past 2:44:16.920 --> 2:44:19.960 and how they relate to present day. It was um 2:44:20.120 --> 2:44:22.400 he'd had a site up on the back of the 2:44:22.440 --> 2:44:25.359 overhead projector desk, had a site up on the overhead 2:44:25.360 --> 2:44:31.320 projector and it was a little triangle of um flakes 2:44:32.640 --> 2:44:35.280 and he's like, Okay, what is this and you're looking 2:44:35.360 --> 2:44:38.600 at it and there's like a circle of flakes, but 2:44:38.640 --> 2:44:43.400 there's um like a center point with no flakes. There's 2:44:43.959 --> 2:44:47.080 um two points running off from the center point with 2:44:47.160 --> 2:44:49.480 no flakes on it. And he's like, what is this? 2:44:49.560 --> 2:44:51.840 What is this? What is this? And what it is 2:44:53.080 --> 2:44:57.440 is the shadow of a man sitting there napping. Right, 2:44:57.560 --> 2:45:00.600 It's like, right, you're like brushing a little off your legs. 2:45:00.680 --> 2:45:02.720 You're brushing, you know. And so there's like this core 2:45:02.840 --> 2:45:05.000 area with a bunch of flakes, and it was ship 2:45:05.120 --> 2:45:07.400 really it was such a good thing. Like you could 2:45:07.400 --> 2:45:11.160 hear the whole class be like, ah, I gotta say, 2:45:11.160 --> 2:45:13.959 this is refreshing to my normal sort of like popular 2:45:14.040 --> 2:45:17.000 napping because I've napped on History Channel and Discover channels. 2:45:17.240 --> 2:45:19.120 They always have me like sitting in the middle of 2:45:19.200 --> 2:45:23.880 the woods by myself on a log in the studio. Yeah, 2:45:24.000 --> 2:45:26.040 but also too, it's so weird because like anyone who 2:45:26.040 --> 2:45:28.200 thinks of me napping and they seem they just think 2:45:28.240 --> 2:45:30.000 that that's what I do. I just go by myself 2:45:30.000 --> 2:45:33.320 into the woods and like Makestone Hippy as it goes 2:45:33.320 --> 2:45:38.920 to those nappings just behind himself and um, so this 2:45:39.000 --> 2:45:43.800 is this is refreshing. So you're getting your other I'm 2:45:43.800 --> 2:45:48.800 working the other nipples. I'm preparing the other footing. I 2:45:48.800 --> 2:45:52.040 shouldn't say working the other nipple. That doesn't sound right. 2:45:52.280 --> 2:45:54.480 I like it. That would be a good name for 2:45:54.480 --> 2:45:57.120 the show, working the other nipple. We'll probably call it. 2:45:57.120 --> 2:45:59.880 I don't know what's the other one. We hand boppers 2:45:59.879 --> 2:46:06.080 and nappers and nappens. Drum roll, phil Man, No way, 2:46:06.120 --> 2:46:07.720 I don't. Don't do the drum roll until he starts 2:46:07.720 --> 2:46:11.520 doing the practice swings. All right, one of the chances 2:46:11.560 --> 2:46:14.560 now failure right on the first flake. It's got to 2:46:14.640 --> 2:46:16.360 go up for the second flake. I would think so 2:46:16.440 --> 2:46:18.960 because it's thinner. But I mean to be honest, I 2:46:19.480 --> 2:46:21.520 don't think we've ever tried to estimate that. Are you 2:46:21.560 --> 2:46:24.640 feeling good about it? Um? I never feel good about it, 2:46:24.680 --> 2:46:27.640 just because a lot of pressure when also too, like 2:46:27.840 --> 2:46:29.920 you wanna sort of have your eye on on the 2:46:29.959 --> 2:46:33.920 ball and no time for feeling right when you're doing 2:46:33.959 --> 2:46:38.400 those practice swings. Are you imagining yourself inching ever? Like 2:46:38.560 --> 2:46:42.760 not inching millimeter ing ever closer to the strike is 2:46:42.760 --> 2:46:44.040 that you're doing. That's what you want to do? You 2:46:44.080 --> 2:46:46.840 want to basically the first couple of ones, I'm lining up, 2:46:46.879 --> 2:46:49.280 and then I'm getting closer and closer and you just 2:46:49.320 --> 2:46:55.199 want to catch, so you're like like, okay, get warmed up, closer, closer, closer, closer, closer, close, closer, 2:46:55.240 --> 2:46:58.879 and it's gonna hit and it's gonna barely hit. Yes, yeah, 2:46:59.040 --> 2:47:03.400 all right, got the antler, got it. It's practice swinging 2:47:03.959 --> 2:47:09.920 a little more. Dressing practice, swing practice, swing practice. I'll stop. 2:47:11.959 --> 2:47:15.760 I like the challenge, so I don't need to do that. 2:47:16.160 --> 2:47:19.320 I don't think it's adding any of the show looking nervous. 2:47:25.360 --> 2:47:40.880 Oh yeah, second one broke and so what do you 2:47:40.920 --> 2:47:45.400 think went wrong on that twing? Steve went wrong on dude, 2:47:45.640 --> 2:47:49.600 it's a chance, per face. I think it's a one 2:47:49.600 --> 2:47:51.720 in two. Ozzy, He's gonna bust the thing. It's like 2:47:51.760 --> 2:47:57.520 when Steve's like, shoot shooting. I mean, to be honest, 2:47:57.520 --> 2:48:00.240 exactly is the problem what I've just created? Here we 2:48:00.280 --> 2:48:05.480 find in the archaeological record, So you know, one this 2:48:05.680 --> 2:48:08.000 was this was my fault. I think what I did 2:48:08.160 --> 2:48:13.279 was because I basically I hit um sort of two 2:48:13.360 --> 2:48:15.720 at the wrong angle. I should have hit directly down 2:48:15.959 --> 2:48:20.400 rather than now your Monday morning quarterback. And yeah, now 2:48:20.680 --> 2:48:23.840 when like if someone was doing that and you've got 2:48:23.879 --> 2:48:27.000 that front piece. There is that still usable for anything? 2:48:27.080 --> 2:48:30.680 Oh yeah, we could easily turn that into close point whatever. 2:48:30.760 --> 2:48:33.440 So and I've done that, not a total No, it'd 2:48:33.480 --> 2:48:34.880 be like, well screw it now, he got out of 2:48:34.879 --> 2:48:39.200 the mud. Anyway, you're napping as fast as you can. 2:48:39.400 --> 2:48:42.560 Like so, but yeah, so what you just saw was 2:48:43.160 --> 2:48:50.000 an actual archaeological up, actual occurrence. Yeah. So besides you 2:48:50.240 --> 2:48:55.760 um needing dead elephants, they've already died, already died anyways. 2:48:56.480 --> 2:49:00.480 And people want to contribute to research. Yeah, and like 2:49:00.600 --> 2:49:05.400 not just really like a pertinent question about contribute to 2:49:05.400 --> 2:49:11.000 research all the things. That's like a pertinent question about history, humanity. 2:49:11.200 --> 2:49:13.240 What are capabilities of kind of like one of the 2:49:13.360 --> 2:49:16.840 great historical mysteries, like what happened to all those big 2:49:16.879 --> 2:49:22.600 gas animals? Climate change? But the climate changed all the time, dude, 2:49:23.000 --> 2:49:25.960 So that is an assumption though, no, no no, no, no, 2:49:27.760 --> 2:49:30.360 it's an assumption that the end of the plisuscene climate 2:49:30.440 --> 2:49:33.840 change is similar to climate changes of the past. And 2:49:33.840 --> 2:49:36.280 and there there seems to have been and again I'm 2:49:36.280 --> 2:49:40.120 not an expert on climate change, um, but uh, the 2:49:40.480 --> 2:49:43.920 change that occurred at the end of the last ten 2:49:44.000 --> 2:49:47.520 thousand years may have been much more draft dramatic than 2:49:47.560 --> 2:49:51.959 what occurred in other interglacials. Um there were interglacial periods 2:49:52.400 --> 2:49:58.240 that got so warm that the pedestal of the Statue 2:49:58.240 --> 2:50:02.560 of Liberty today would have been underwater. It was that 2:50:02.640 --> 2:50:05.600 warm during some of the intergratitional and the ship lived 2:50:05.600 --> 2:50:09.600 through that. But whether or not that caused some sort 2:50:09.600 --> 2:50:13.680 of detriment to population sizes or that would have then 2:50:13.720 --> 2:50:15.680 when they get to the next one. So it becomes 2:50:15.680 --> 2:50:18.640 almost like a degradation over long time, because we know 2:50:18.720 --> 2:50:22.120 from you know, other time periods that extinctions occur all 2:50:22.160 --> 2:50:25.879 the time. Everything goes extinct eventually, so it could just 2:50:25.959 --> 2:50:28.880 be whittling away over tens of thousands, if not hundreds 2:50:28.879 --> 2:50:31.120 of thousands of years long. Me to hit me another zinger, 2:50:31.400 --> 2:50:36.039 bringing up Okay, I got a zinger crawling from mercy. 2:50:36.680 --> 2:50:44.080 Mercy humans okay had been in Africa millions of years. 2:50:45.240 --> 2:50:48.520 Their ship didn't go extinct, that's true. Why is that 2:50:49.400 --> 2:50:53.360 because they co evolved with human hunters. Their elephants didn't 2:50:53.360 --> 2:50:55.800 go extinct, or big o rhinods didn't go extinct, or 2:50:55.840 --> 2:50:58.800 they didn't hunt elephants. But you're saying they didn't hunt 2:50:58.840 --> 2:51:07.600 them here. Yeah, I hope this is real. I don't 2:51:07.640 --> 2:51:11.000 I don't understand my own point. But it's a thing 2:51:11.040 --> 2:51:13.440 that blitz Creek people like to bring up. That's like 2:51:13.480 --> 2:51:15.240 the whole basis of the blitz Creek. It was like 2:51:16.280 --> 2:51:18.320 they're like, look what hapens all over the world? Right, 2:51:18.480 --> 2:51:22.439 humans show up and then there's a contemporaneous die off. Okay, 2:51:22.560 --> 2:51:25.280 and you're like the mora, what's that big gass bird 2:51:25.280 --> 2:51:30.000 in New Zealand? The moa moa and the Maori people 2:51:30.480 --> 2:51:34.320 right once ship in Australia, Okay, big birds go away. 2:51:35.000 --> 2:51:37.879 Islands get hit hard, and then you go and be like, 2:51:38.280 --> 2:51:44.119 but in Africa they kept their camel, they're hippo, they're rhinos, 2:51:44.440 --> 2:51:50.640 their elephants. How else do you explain that, Well, they 2:51:50.640 --> 2:51:53.720 didn't hunt them. There's as far as I know, there 2:51:53.720 --> 2:51:56.520 are no hunting sites. Yeah, there's no hunting sites in 2:51:57.840 --> 2:52:04.280 Why did the global climate change not kill those elephants? Well, because, 2:52:04.480 --> 2:52:07.879 I mean, climate change in North America is a different 2:52:07.920 --> 2:52:09.840 thing in like a northern hemisphere than it would be 2:52:09.920 --> 2:52:12.879 in the equator. Like climate change hits different parts of 2:52:12.959 --> 2:52:17.359 the globe differently, and so if climate change in Africa 2:52:17.600 --> 2:52:22.039 was not as dramatic. Um animals can survive there in 2:52:22.080 --> 2:52:26.240 a way that they wouldn't in North America. But the 2:52:26.400 --> 2:52:30.119 but the mega fauna in the equatorial west western hemisphere 2:52:30.120 --> 2:52:39.160 went away the equatorial western hemisphere. That's yeah, that's true. 2:52:39.760 --> 2:52:42.560 So it's not an equator issue. I should read a 2:52:42.560 --> 2:52:44.880 paper well, but the issue. But it's also not an 2:52:44.879 --> 2:52:47.720 Africa issue either. I mean, nor South America is different 2:52:47.720 --> 2:52:50.119 than Africa. So the point was just that there's different 2:52:50.400 --> 2:52:54.080 areas that could be affected differently. But you do admit 2:52:54.120 --> 2:52:57.800 that it's an interesting wrinkle. And I'm not saying too 2:52:57.879 --> 2:53:01.080 that we have answers to any of this of um 2:53:01.400 --> 2:53:03.280 and And to be honest, I think this Clovis point 2:53:03.360 --> 2:53:06.560 issue penetration thing, how deep they penetrate Like at the 2:53:06.640 --> 2:53:09.320 end of the day, it is an engineering and physics question. 2:53:10.200 --> 2:53:13.560 Is it possible in some way to get a point 2:53:13.680 --> 2:53:19.080 this size going at thirty one per second? Is there 2:53:19.160 --> 2:53:22.240 some trick that clovised people had to maybe have these 2:53:22.240 --> 2:53:24.640 things penetrate deeper than what we can do today and 2:53:24.680 --> 2:53:28.520 to kill thousands and thousands of mammoth is that possible? 2:53:28.600 --> 2:53:30.680 There are any more or less to kill? And so 2:53:31.080 --> 2:53:34.199 like this issue is not closed, and no one should 2:53:34.240 --> 2:53:37.720 think it is closed. Um, it's an interesting question that 2:53:37.840 --> 2:53:40.200 we need like lots of different scientists, and we need 2:53:40.240 --> 2:53:42.199 lots of dead elephants. We need lots of dead elephants. 2:53:42.200 --> 2:53:46.000 But I think the cool thing about experimental archaeology is that, look, 2:53:46.000 --> 2:53:48.840 there's lots of flint nappers out there. People can learn 2:53:48.840 --> 2:53:51.160 to flint nap. These are experiments you could potentially do 2:53:51.200 --> 2:53:54.720 in your backyard. Right, So if you doubt my results 2:53:54.800 --> 2:53:57.000 or anyone else's, like, there's no reason why you can't 2:53:57.040 --> 2:53:59.480 buy some Clovis points and half them and see how 2:53:59.760 --> 2:54:03.120 deep they penetrate, you know, various media that you've got 2:54:03.120 --> 2:54:05.720 in your back carcasses, whatever. That's a good point. Someone 2:54:05.760 --> 2:54:07.879 could be like, you've always got it all wrong, and 2:54:07.920 --> 2:54:09.440 they have the thing up, and then he can write 2:54:09.480 --> 2:54:10.800 you let them be like, hey man, here's what I 2:54:10.840 --> 2:54:12.560 think what's going on. Well, And the thing too is 2:54:12.600 --> 2:54:14.440 at the end of the day, I don't give a 2:54:14.480 --> 2:54:17.560 flying rats ass if I'm right or wrong. I want 2:54:17.600 --> 2:54:20.360 to know what happened. And I think that's the difference 2:54:20.360 --> 2:54:24.640 between a scientist that is committed to evidence and one 2:54:24.720 --> 2:54:27.359 that's not. Like, because even if you're wrong. Your hypothesis 2:54:27.360 --> 2:54:32.480 is incorrect. Being incorrect is a contribution because you've shown 2:54:32.600 --> 2:54:35.439 that other scientists shouldn't go down that avenue of inquiry. 2:54:36.080 --> 2:54:39.240 So um no, I I encourage others to to test 2:54:39.480 --> 2:54:42.080 what we found and what others have found. And this 2:54:42.120 --> 2:54:44.560 issue definitely is not settled. It could even be your 2:54:44.600 --> 2:54:51.680 freshman high school science project. Kidna. Just say, I got 2:54:51.680 --> 2:54:53.760 one last question. Before you tell people how to find 2:54:53.760 --> 2:54:55.160 you and how to apply for your do you take 2:54:55.200 --> 2:54:58.200 on students? Yeah, definitely, we've got You've got too many 2:54:58.280 --> 2:55:00.640 applicants already. We have quite a few. You you're not 2:55:00.640 --> 2:55:05.640 looking for more applicants? Well, we always welcome out. Um uh, 2:55:05.640 --> 2:55:08.320 here's my question for you. And this gets into your 2:55:08.520 --> 2:55:13.640 heart and soul and integrity as a as a scientist. Uh. 2:55:13.800 --> 2:55:15.920 I remember saying to a researcher one time. They're talking 2:55:15.959 --> 2:55:17.360 about a project, and I said, well, what do you 2:55:17.400 --> 2:55:21.320 hope happens? And he told me the reasons why that 2:55:21.320 --> 2:55:23.280 that's not really a thing that you're supposed to do. 2:55:23.879 --> 2:55:26.240 You know, Oh my god, that makes sense because it 2:55:26.440 --> 2:55:29.640 cause a bias. Right, But when you were doing it 2:55:29.640 --> 2:55:31.879 with the uh, when you're doing the work with the 2:55:31.879 --> 2:55:33.880 stone points there has been some little part of you 2:55:34.680 --> 2:55:37.840 and maybe you can do successfully put it aside. There 2:55:37.840 --> 2:55:40.680 has been some party it's like rooting for the point. Look, 2:55:40.760 --> 2:55:42.320 I want to know. I mean, like you gotta be 2:55:42.400 --> 2:55:46.440 kind of like. I went on a PBS national documentary 2:55:46.520 --> 2:55:49.840 on the People in America's and I said on national television, 2:55:49.920 --> 2:55:53.119 the Clovis point could take down any ice age beast. 2:55:53.440 --> 2:55:56.360 Like I thought for a really long time that that's 2:55:56.360 --> 2:55:58.160 what Clovis points could do. And I said it on 2:55:58.240 --> 2:56:01.720 National TV. Um, the evidence at the moment does not 2:56:01.760 --> 2:56:04.680 support that hypothesis. So I changed my mind based on 2:56:04.720 --> 2:56:08.280 the evidence. Um. But some little party was kind of 2:56:08.480 --> 2:56:10.880 the kid and he was rooting for the point. Yeah, 2:56:11.000 --> 2:56:13.000 and and there may be again. Like I said, at 2:56:13.040 --> 2:56:14.760 the end of the day, this is a physics question 2:56:14.800 --> 2:56:18.360 and an engineering question. Maybe there's some physics or engineering 2:56:18.360 --> 2:56:22.160 trick that Clovis folks understood about their weaponry that we 2:56:22.240 --> 2:56:25.440 have not unlocked yet that will make their their points 2:56:25.440 --> 2:56:28.840 more deadly and lethal than they currently are. In the lab, 2:56:29.959 --> 2:56:34.320 got it all right? Tell people what how to kind 2:56:34.320 --> 2:56:37.720 of find you remind everybody where you're at and what 2:56:37.840 --> 2:56:39.560 sorts of things you're working on that that might be 2:56:39.600 --> 2:56:42.200 of interest to our audience. Yeah, So we're at the 2:56:42.280 --> 2:56:46.360 Kent State Experiments Archaeology Laboratory, and uh, we're working on 2:56:46.720 --> 2:56:53.279 understanding ancient technologies made out of any material ceramics, stone, metals, leather, whatever, um. 2:56:53.320 --> 2:56:55.240 And we just want to understand how this stuff was 2:56:55.320 --> 2:56:58.360 made and how it worked. And once we can understand 2:56:58.400 --> 2:57:00.879 how this stuff was made and how it worked, we 2:57:00.920 --> 2:57:03.680 can understand why it appears the way it does in 2:57:03.720 --> 2:57:06.440 the archaeological record, and we can understand the evolution of 2:57:06.480 --> 2:57:09.720 technology over the last three million years. Tell me about 2:57:09.720 --> 2:57:13.960 the primal Points project you're involved in. So as any 2:57:14.000 --> 2:57:18.480 scientific field matures, it starts to contribute to society. So 2:57:18.720 --> 2:57:21.480 physics is a very old field and now we have 2:57:21.520 --> 2:57:23.840 all sorts of societal benefits from physics, and same with 2:57:23.879 --> 2:57:28.000 biology and medicine. Well, experiments archaeology is relatively young, but 2:57:28.120 --> 2:57:30.959 we feel that it should be starting to contribute to 2:57:31.000 --> 2:57:33.280 society and in different ways, and so we start to 2:57:33.280 --> 2:57:36.400 think how could that be, And so what we decided 2:57:36.440 --> 2:57:39.680 to do was design a new type of broadhead that 2:57:40.000 --> 2:57:45.320 performs similarly to modern broadheads but looks like ancient chip 2:57:45.440 --> 2:57:48.880 stone ones. So this way you can go hunting bow 2:57:48.920 --> 2:57:52.000 hunting now and and hunt a barker or whatever with 2:57:52.080 --> 2:57:55.480 a Clovis point or a notched archaic point. And so 2:57:55.560 --> 2:57:58.959 we've actually got examples of the technology where essentially what 2:57:59.000 --> 2:58:03.760 we do is we've got aluminum casts of actual stone 2:58:03.840 --> 2:58:08.080 chipped artifacts or arrowheads. And then what we do is, 2:58:08.240 --> 2:58:11.880 through a special pouring technique, we can put a steel 2:58:12.000 --> 2:58:15.520 blade on the inside of it. UM. So it's got 2:58:15.560 --> 2:58:18.360 the same razor sharp edge and the durability of a 2:58:18.440 --> 2:58:22.480 modern broadhead. UM. So you know, you can and it 2:58:22.600 --> 2:58:26.160 screws into modern arrow shafts. Uh, you know, just the 2:58:26.200 --> 2:58:29.280 way any other broadhead would UM and so, but it 2:58:29.280 --> 2:58:32.120 would look like a chip stone one can you make? 2:58:32.360 --> 2:58:34.920 You make a foolesome one. We can make any time period, 2:58:34.920 --> 2:58:37.480 so you can actually tailor your bow hunt UM to 2:58:37.640 --> 2:58:39.880 the area you're going to. So if you're going to Europe, 2:58:40.280 --> 2:58:44.520 you can take a European style um of of ancient arrowhead, 2:58:44.560 --> 2:58:46.440 or if you're going to Australia or Africa, take an 2:58:46.440 --> 2:58:49.800 African style or anywhere, right, so you can tailor you 2:58:49.800 --> 2:58:54.880 can just got the weight, it's got the way aerodynamics 2:58:54.920 --> 2:58:57.680 of stone, but it's got the sharp en durability of 2:58:57.760 --> 2:59:01.039 steel and modern broadheads. So when are you gonna make 2:59:01.040 --> 2:59:03.720 a folsome one? We can make those right now. Well 2:59:03.840 --> 2:59:05.760 not here in the studio, but we could make we 2:59:05.760 --> 2:59:09.440 could make one. Yeah, yeah, definitely flinging it. So that's 2:59:09.480 --> 2:59:16.600 no problem. Are you on social media? I hate social media? Yeah, 2:59:16.840 --> 2:59:21.320 so I'm just it's one of my roommates was involving 2:59:21.520 --> 2:59:24.800 You're not like at napping or no, no, no, Um, 2:59:24.879 --> 2:59:28.240 that'd be a good social network. Listen, man, this is 2:59:28.240 --> 2:59:30.160 all kinds of bad ship can say about social media. 2:59:30.240 --> 2:59:31.640 But if you had a social media site and it 2:59:31.720 --> 2:59:33.200 was like, hey, check this point out, here's what we 2:59:33.240 --> 2:59:34.920 think is going on with this and blah blah blah, 2:59:34.879 --> 2:59:36.760 I'd subscribe to that that. And I'm kind of a liar 2:59:36.800 --> 2:59:39.360 like our Lab does have a Twitter account, Um, but 2:59:39.440 --> 2:59:41.520 I don't. I personally, I try to avoid social media 2:59:41.520 --> 2:59:45.040 when I can. Um do. Wild Turkey Doc man, there's 2:59:45.080 --> 2:59:47.840 a guy wild Turk like Mike Chamberlain. Wild Turkey Doc. 2:59:48.440 --> 2:59:50.760 He has a social media channel. He shares his research. 2:59:50.760 --> 2:59:53.000 It's fascinating. I think that they shouldn't be allowed to 2:59:53.040 --> 2:59:55.640 have any social media accounts besides his social media that's 2:59:55.640 --> 2:59:59.440 pretty good. Yeah, he shares his research academic Twitter is 2:59:59.480 --> 3:00:02.039 pretty cool. And then he's got like they'll put a 3:00:02.240 --> 3:00:04.280 tracking device on a turkey and he'll public and just 3:00:04.320 --> 3:00:05.959 on social media he'll have like, what all the turkey 3:00:06.000 --> 3:00:07.960 was up to that? Yeah, it doesn't need to be 3:00:08.000 --> 3:00:09.440 like it's not like, it doesn't need to be you 3:00:09.520 --> 3:00:12.800 talking about I don't know, remile in your kitchen. It 3:00:12.879 --> 3:00:16.840 could be like, uh about stone stuff. Yeah, no, that's true, 3:00:16.959 --> 3:00:20.560 that's true. Um, but yeah, I don't know why just 3:00:20.800 --> 3:00:24.000 social media makes me nervous. Well for good reason, but 3:00:24.280 --> 3:00:27.600 there's there's power in it as well. For now, people 3:00:27.600 --> 3:00:31.840 can email us questions that we forward to. Yeah. For 3:00:31.920 --> 3:00:33.920 now though, if people have a question for you, I 3:00:33.920 --> 3:00:38.720 have an email address. You want all these emails? I 3:00:38.720 --> 3:00:40.920 mean they can find you anyway. Well, let him go 3:00:40.959 --> 3:00:43.600 through the hass little find if now sending dawns and 3:00:43.840 --> 3:00:47.720 in the esteemed Corey Calkins will be like, I want 3:00:47.760 --> 3:00:50.879 to put a clover's point through a car door. You're 3:00:50.920 --> 3:00:54.440 telling me car door? All right, man, thanks so much 3:00:54.480 --> 3:00:57.879 for coming on. Thanks for my beautiful knife. Yeah it's 3:00:57.959 --> 3:01:01.400 lutrean laurel leaf laurel you and thank you for having me. 3:01:01.400 --> 3:01:06.640 This is an awesome. Super appreciate all the stuff you brought. Man. Yeah, 3:01:06.680 --> 3:01:10.640 it's gonna be fun going back. Baggage claim they were. 3:01:10.680 --> 3:01:12.480 I was like, what the hell is in here? Yeah, 3:01:12.520 --> 3:01:16.400 for sure. Just just my weapons, just my weapons, house Stone, 3:01:17.080 --> 3:01:18.800 all right, man, thank you very much. Hey, thank you