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Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening hunt podcast.

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Speaker 1: You can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear

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Speaker 1: for every hunt first like go farther, stay longer. Holy shit, man,

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Speaker 1: we got so much to like. People don't even appreciate

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Speaker 1: the level work that goes into this because we're right

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Speaker 1: now getting rid of all the stupid stuff we're gonna

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Speaker 1: talk about to make more room for the main thing

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about, which is like Clovis points and

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Speaker 1: Bolsom points, the hell name is meeting Menton is a

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Speaker 1: Turkish name. It's Turkish. It's Turkish. My dad is Turkish.

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Speaker 1: He was an immigrant over here. My mom was Irish.

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Speaker 1: Shaping up as an American story. Yeah, I was born

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Speaker 1: in Cleveland, and hence your hence your but and you

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Speaker 1: wound up there. Yeah, And I teach them professor at

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Speaker 1: Kent State, and um, I speak only one language, which

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Speaker 1: is American. Didn't teach no Turkish, no Irish. But your

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Speaker 1: father was born in Turkey. He was born in Turkey?

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Speaker 1: Was he so he was not interested in Coloba's points

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Speaker 1: as a child. No, he wanted me to be a doctor.

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Speaker 1: In fact, that was the first one in several generations

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Speaker 1: of my family not to go into medicine. But you

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Speaker 1: are a doctor, well medical, Yeah, I don't really contact. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's cool. I actually googled ment and before the show

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Speaker 1: because I've never met anybody with that name. Do you

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Speaker 1: know what it means? Yeah, it means to be well,

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Speaker 1: there's lots of different uh iterations, depending if it's Arabic

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Speaker 1: or Turkish. But strong in character? Wow, I dig it.

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Speaker 1: Now you probably picked the best one. Though, what what

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Speaker 1: would be not as Yeah, I don't know. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Strong character, strong character, but there's other negative meetings. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Did you find someone strong? Is the

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Speaker 1: only thing that I saw? Didn't dig too deep? Apparently

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Speaker 1: I like it though. That was good enough for me.

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Speaker 1: That and uh, tell everybody what your PhD is in.

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Speaker 1: It is in archaeology, Um, but I also have degrees

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Speaker 1: in experimental archaeology and anthropology. My specialties where I recreate

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Speaker 1: ancient weapons and tools and then we reverse engineer them

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Speaker 1: to figure out how they work. Um, So we actually

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Speaker 1: have the world's premier experimental archaeology lab at Kent State

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Speaker 1: where we have our own ballistics range and engineering equipment

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Speaker 1: and foot napping area and forge and pottery students. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's awesome. And to come down there. Yeah, we can

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Speaker 1: make any arms. Give me like an honorary degree. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: a couple of honorary degrees. I like how spear is

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Speaker 1: right in the title there too. Yeah, I'm experimental experiment.

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Speaker 1: Come back to my ballistics lab. So if you just

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Speaker 1: type that into Google, you'll you'll find our website and

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Speaker 1: we have a masters that you can apply for and

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Speaker 1: and get your Masters in experimental archaeology if you're interested,

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Speaker 1: and we can do you. Guys do like ceramics, leathers, whatever, whatever.

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Speaker 1: We've had musicians, We've had tattoo artists. Yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean we I mean, look, good grades are important, so

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Speaker 1: stay in school kids, Um, But like what we are

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Speaker 1: really interested in our skills that that are our take

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Speaker 1: years to develop, right and and outside of the box

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Speaker 1: thinking that comes with those skills. Um. We can teach

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Speaker 1: you the science and what a hypothesis is and how

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Speaker 1: to design a test, But what we can't teach you

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Speaker 1: is you know that the twenty years it took for

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Speaker 1: you to learn the viola, or the fifteen years to

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Speaker 1: become a tattoo artist or a hunter or a craftsman

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Um. So we welcome all sorts of people

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Speaker 1: with with sort of out of the box skills to

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Speaker 1: apply for our program because we can use those skills

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Speaker 1: in experimental archaeological tests, because people in the past made

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Speaker 1: stuff out of all sorts of materials, um, and so

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Speaker 1: we want to learn all of it. We do got

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Speaker 1: to talk about a couple of things. We're gonna get

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Speaker 1: into this right away, because you know, I teased this

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Speaker 1: episode the other day where I saw an article you

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Speaker 1: were probably involved in it saying basically the headline was

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Speaker 1: like Clovis ain't all that, and it said they couldn't

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Speaker 1: actually get anything because their points sucked pretty much. Do

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Speaker 1: you think that's true. Well, that's the case, let's cancel

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Speaker 1: the let's canceled this, and we're gonna put all the

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Speaker 1: other stuff back in and not gonna talk about it.

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Speaker 1: So I think the issue is not that the cloths

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Speaker 1: point suck. It's just that they're not like a stone

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Speaker 1: age a K. Forty seven. They're not a paleolithic Bazooka

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Speaker 1: where he basically you can wake up one day and

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Speaker 1: just decide, you know what, I'm gonna get me a mammoth.

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Speaker 1: I haven't had mammoth in a while. So, so were

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Speaker 1: you involved in that paper? I was the first author

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Speaker 1: of that. See, I wasn't up Speed of the Year that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know it was showing around. Um, you know that

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Speaker 1: I said that. I said, what they're trying to do

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Speaker 1: is emasculate Clovis. Do you feel that you're trying to

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Speaker 1: emasculate clothes? Oh no, not at all, because Clovis folks

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Speaker 1: that use Clovis technology are awesome. You think they're badass? Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: So it's possible to love, just to stop worrying and

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Speaker 1: love Clovis. Definitely. I just think mammoths, in some ways

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Speaker 1: we're more badass. That's a good way of looking at it. Um,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna solve. Are you prepared to do this too?

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Speaker 1: And this is something that that uh, you know, Clay

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Speaker 1: and I have Clay Newcom there's one of the guys

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Speaker 1: who work with He has a very wonderful podcast, um

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Speaker 1: called Bear Grease, and he and I are off and

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Speaker 1: on like a little parallel Paths of discovery, and he

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Speaker 1: was recently doing a piece about the fulsome type site

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Speaker 1: and invited a guest of his to knock the channel

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Speaker 1: flake out of a falsome point? Are you prepared to

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Speaker 1: knock a channel flake out of something? Definitely right here

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Speaker 1: in front of my very eyes? You know, I got

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Speaker 1: these brand new glasses on. I brought goggles as well,

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Speaker 1: so nothing will get in anyone. Learn me to the fact.

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Speaker 1: You could buy five pairs for like ten bucks, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's probably not good for your eyeballs,

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Speaker 1: but that's what I did because I'm sickly. I had

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Speaker 1: one pair and lost him, and I'm gonna have suns

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Speaker 1: bitches everywhere. I don't think they're bad for your eyes.

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Speaker 1: I think the other the other things bad for your wallet.

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Speaker 1: It's a racket you have, But two bucks man, looking

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Speaker 1: through something to cost two bucks seems like not a

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Speaker 1: good idea to me. I might even had a sticker

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Speaker 1: that said two dollars on him. Well, no, I was wrong.

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Speaker 1: I thought it wasn't. I realized I meant two as

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Speaker 1: Oh you're up to two man, Yeah, getting bad. Quick

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Speaker 1: question for Hayden, how come so many days have gone

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Speaker 1: by and you haven't fixed the artwork. I was actually

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Speaker 1: gonna get in touch with you, but you were in

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Speaker 1: Mexico and I was gonna ask if you wanted to

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Speaker 1: have that buffalo print more professionally framed before I went

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Speaker 1: and hung it up the bottom one, Okay, James j Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jamie wild Arts said, that's a custom. Yeah, that's from

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Speaker 1: It's from a dream vision of mine, of of wolves

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Speaker 1: eating a buffalo alive and and pulling it in pusens

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Speaker 1: out and eating it while it stands. Yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it captures the reality. And she sent that framed. The

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Speaker 1: gentleman that did that buffalo school, uh sent it in

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Speaker 1: a nice frame. The frame broke and so Kylie went

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Speaker 1: and got it. So it's more of an issue between

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Speaker 1: you and Kylie. I was expecting you to lower the

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Speaker 1: one and raise the other one like you had said,

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Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I didn't ask you to do it,

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Speaker 1: you just offered it. I didn't want to rank them,

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Speaker 1: just weird. It's all good to be here, but hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna compliment saying with you. It's too late, isn't it. Well,

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Speaker 1: let me go back like you look great today. Thanks,

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Speaker 1: And then the top compliment is, um, tell everybody what

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Speaker 1: you just made, because that was the best thing I rate.

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Speaker 1: Oh well, thanks man. It was a bourbon liver and

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Speaker 1: smoked trout pat a and uh that was the grease

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Speaker 1: on top. That was just bacon fat, just training bacon fat.

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Speaker 1: Keep it nice. It was good fat cap Yep, thanks,

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Speaker 1: really good first bourbon too. So six pounder. Uh, their

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Speaker 1: liver is like what or something like that, it's some

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Speaker 1: outrageous percentage of their body weight. Yeah, it was a huge. Man.

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Speaker 1: I just saw it. I was like, oh, there's no

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Speaker 1: way you could chuck that thing. It just looked good

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Speaker 1: to eat. Now, my friends in Alaska turn me on

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Speaker 1: and just taking it. They just cut it thin and

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Speaker 1: you don't want to sit there and eat it for

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Speaker 1: an hour, but it's kind of fun. Let's like drink

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Speaker 1: a beer whatever, crackers. They cut the liver thin and

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Speaker 1: don't put oil on the panks or so much oil anyways,

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Speaker 1: and just give it a little ship on a hot

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Speaker 1: on a hot, dry skillet. That's bourbon. Just you should

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Speaker 1: eat some of that and see if it's screws you up.

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Speaker 1: They're just trailing it though on your eye or something. Yeah, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: bourbon liver. See if you have a reaction to just

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Speaker 1: smears him on your eye and see if it gets

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Speaker 1: itchy or however they do it down there. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: um Chester, can you super quick give us a date

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Speaker 1: on the Walleye situation. Yeah, Seth and I are growing.

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Speaker 1: Our excitement is just like going through the roof because

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Speaker 1: we have a few very excited. We have quite a

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Speaker 1: few people reaching out to us, and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: have a further conversation of what getting us a boat

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Speaker 1: for the summer would would look like in terms of

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Speaker 1: maybe partnerships and whatnot. And uh yeah, it's some great companies.

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Speaker 1: Um you can name that boat with Steve Rino if

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Speaker 1: it comes through this the fact that I'm always trying

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Speaker 1: to promote it, that's a that's a decent name. But man,

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Speaker 1: there's just so many other boat names out there that

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Speaker 1: are the biggest thing here is there's gonna be two

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Speaker 1: boats sitting idle no for the summer if they do

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Speaker 1: get Walleye boat sponsorship, which means you guys get like

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Speaker 1: a real boat that boat. Those other two boats are

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Speaker 1: going to spend their summer as like company boats. Really.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, well yeah, that's that's fair. Anybody, if we

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Speaker 1: get this one boat, anybody is welcome to use my

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Speaker 1: boat anytime and also on the tournament season, because what

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Speaker 1: if you've got to have it ready to go. I'm well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm saying just in general, like with all of the

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Speaker 1: boats my boat. I'm sure I can speak for Seth

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Speaker 1: to my boat, Seth's boat, this company boat. Like I

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Speaker 1: want to get out fishing as much as I can,

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Speaker 1: so anybody that wants to go fishing, Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: let's go fishing. And we've got to share the wealth.

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Speaker 1: So if a if A if a prominent boat manufacturer,

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Speaker 1: and that this is a race, a prominent boat manufacturer

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Speaker 1: comes and says, I want in I want Chester and

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Speaker 1: Seth to do this Walleye tournament series for me eater

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Speaker 1: in our boat because it would give us more marketing

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Speaker 1: impressions than perhaps any other thing we've ever engaged in.

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Speaker 1: You're saying that, I mean you're When that happens, this

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Speaker 1: boat will be Other people will be allowed to fish

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Speaker 1: this boat. Of course, And what what is the ideal

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Speaker 1: walleye boat look like for in Montana? Um, well, there's

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Speaker 1: a bunch of different things. For the ideal walleye boat

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Speaker 1: in general is a bigger boat because a lot of no, no,

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Speaker 1: like I mean like an eighteen nine glass boat. Fiberglass

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Speaker 1: boat is ideal. You want something that's a little heavier.

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Speaker 1: Reason being is because a lot of great walleye fishing

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Speaker 1: in this area is on bigger reservoirs, and once the

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Speaker 1: wind picks up and starts ripping, if you're in a

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Speaker 1: little sixteen foot boat like the one I have currently,

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Speaker 1: it can actually be dangerous. So meaning like you could

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Speaker 1: be trapped out there swamp your boat, um because of

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Speaker 1: the waves. Is it fair to say that these major

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Speaker 1: boat manufacturers are toying with your life? Chester No, because

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Speaker 1: they could buy their their lack of a response, their

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Speaker 1: inactivity could actually lead to your drowning. Is that fair

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Speaker 1: to say? Well, just think of the jump. I'm a

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Speaker 1: pretty careful dude. The jumping A boat manufacturer who wants

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Speaker 1: to get into the bigs is gonna have by picking

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Speaker 1: these guys up. There's there's a design out there that's

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Speaker 1: just been waiting for its opportunity to be big. Chat

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Speaker 1: and South are gonna take it to the top. Mega impressions.

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Speaker 1: Do you have to do anything official to become a pro.

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Speaker 1: This is gonna do for walleye boats what Over the

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Speaker 1: Top did for arm wrestling. That's right. People are gonna

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Speaker 1: be switching their hats around backwards saying turn it on, Brody.

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Speaker 1: I don't I think I mean yet to become a pro.

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Speaker 1: I think you gotta one be entered into like a

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Speaker 1: pro circuit um. And it depends on the series like

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Speaker 1: bass turning and so I know, like there's to be

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Speaker 1: considered a pro, you have to have a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of winnings. There's like sponsorships involved, there's like pro tournaments

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Speaker 1: that you So you guys got to work your way

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Speaker 1: up to that. Yeah. But my goal to this whole

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Speaker 1: thing is like I don't need to be a pro.

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Speaker 1: I want to become the best angler that I can be.

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Speaker 1: And catching wile and figuring while out is a very

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Speaker 1: good way to become a good angler in multi Like

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Speaker 1: if you can figure out how catch while you can

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Speaker 1: be a pretty damn good bass angler. Um things like that.

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Speaker 1: So it's talking at my heart strings. Man, I'm so excited,

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Speaker 1: especially now that Seth doesn't have to that he can

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Speaker 1: do all the tournaments. Oh, because did we get the

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Speaker 1: wedding adjusted yeah, because do you hear what we found

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Speaker 1: out then in Montana it's one of very few states,

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Speaker 1: a couple of states where you can have a proxy.

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Speaker 1: You don't need to be at your own wedding. Um.

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Speaker 1: Problem solved. Some people see problems, we see solutions. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna get back to this stone point stuff. Hardcore. H Oh.

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Speaker 1: You know what I was. I flew today and I was,

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Speaker 1: you know a Salt Lake City has those huge I

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Speaker 1: had to fly home this morning. Salt Lake City has

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Speaker 1: those enormous escalators. Like the amount of people that don't

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Speaker 1: walk on there and just stand there. It's like, you're

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Speaker 1: you're in such good shape. You're in such good shape

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Speaker 1: that you don't even need to get this little bit

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Speaker 1: of exercise. That's how going to shape you're in. That's

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Speaker 1: what you're telling me. It sounds like you were about

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Speaker 1: to miss your flight. Huh. I was, But I was like, also,

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Speaker 1: everybody's so well exercised they can afford to just stand here. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't even think it's that. It's like very rarely

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Speaker 1: in an airport for me, am I not needing to

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Speaker 1: get to another place, and so when the escalators there,

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Speaker 1: I'm not like, oh this is doing it for me.

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Speaker 1: If I just keep walking, I'm there fast. It's meant

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Speaker 1: to like, Yeah, it's into make your efforts pay off

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Speaker 1: even better. Yeah, like the moving walkways standing on Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, it drives me nuts. Uh to go positive

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Speaker 1: for a minute, Um, brodie, Now are gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: something for the until people can't stand here about it anymore.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna start talking about it right now. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: when I had children. When I began having children in

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Speaker 1: two thousand ten, my boy was born, Um, the it

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Speaker 1: really hit me like, Um, how do you sort of

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Speaker 1: like as a person that grew up um outdoors hunting

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Speaker 1: and fishing and had like what I regard to be

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Speaker 1: like a very sort of productive educational relationship to um

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Speaker 1: nature and outdoors. And I had kids, and right away

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Speaker 1: I'm like, God, like I want to like do that

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Speaker 1: for them. And it's hard. Um. And even back then,

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Speaker 1: I thought, someday I want to like do a book

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Speaker 1: about kids in the outdoors, which is largely about it

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Speaker 1: has a lot to do with just the anxieties that

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Speaker 1: come from having kids and and wanting to engage them

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Speaker 1: around nature and just loking hard it is. Yeah, it's hard,

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Speaker 1: hard to get everyone out the door. That's the hardest

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Speaker 1: part by far. I mean, you know, the mittens and

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Speaker 1: cleaning up dirty kids and stuff along the way, and

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Speaker 1: dealing with cold kids is difficult. But get them out

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Speaker 1: there's the hard part. Uh. I remember one of the

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Speaker 1: things I remember when my kids are really little, taking

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Speaker 1: them up to our fish shack, and I was trying

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Speaker 1: to uh I was. I was imploring my wife, like,

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Speaker 1: we're not gonna bring a ton of clothes. They got

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Speaker 1: to learn to wear them dry. They got learned to

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Speaker 1: wear them dry. You get it wet, you just keep

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Speaker 1: it on. Like I were to see in close seven

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Speaker 1: days in a row, it gets wet, you wear it,

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Speaker 1: it dries, and you don't need all these clothes. So

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Speaker 1: she I finally get her convinced to go on this

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Speaker 1: dry program, and we get there and my little boy,

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Speaker 1: my littlest boy at the time, wades out to his

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Speaker 1: belly button out in the salt water and ships his pants,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm being like, she's like, yeah, my wife's like,

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Speaker 1: where are this dry? It's like, everything is so hard.

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Speaker 1: The amount of times I've seen your youngest kid get

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Speaker 1: wet is unbelievable. It's about every time. You know what

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Speaker 1: my goal is, I'm gonna go get wet, whether it's

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Speaker 1: jumping into ice hole, taking his shoes off with his

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Speaker 1: socks in the mud when we're salmon fishing. Um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've laughed a hundred times about last year ice fishing.

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Speaker 1: I can remember my birthday ice fishing last year and

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Speaker 1: my daughter skating up her her brother are in the

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Speaker 1: shanny and her riding up on ice skates. Sand I

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Speaker 1: got bad news and there isn't any good news. Matthew

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Speaker 1: felm the whole both feet, both feet into one hole,

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Speaker 1: which is like, seems impossible fish shack when your oldest

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Speaker 1: broke his arm right immediately before the trip, and so

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Speaker 1: you have a kid, he was young kid in a

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Speaker 1: cast with the very serious warning of do not get

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Speaker 1: this wet. And I mean it was like maybe six

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Speaker 1: It was less than a professional bull ride for sure,

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Speaker 1: maybe maybe six seconds. Right. It's like we're unloading stuff

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Speaker 1: at the fish shack and you turn around and he's

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Speaker 1: just like elbowed and you're like, huh that all where

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Speaker 1: that draft in the in the book I'm about to plug.

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Speaker 1: I actually talked about that because, um, my wife not

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Speaker 1: coming from outdoors background always thinks that everything UM that

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Speaker 1: I take the kids to is like dangerous or used

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Speaker 1: to like, oh, guns are dangerous, hunting is dangerous, wild

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Speaker 1: and moles. Every time my kids wind up in a

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Speaker 1: UM emergency rooms because of something she did. Got him

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Speaker 1: a swing set, broken arm, got him a lego kit,

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Speaker 1: Stitches in his head from falling a lego, got him

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Speaker 1: a scooter, Stitches in his head from the scooter. Every time,

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Speaker 1: it was like, that was your thing, all my super

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Speaker 1: dangerous shit. No one's ever had any problem just getting wet. No,

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Speaker 1: they get wet, she does something for me. They break

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Speaker 1: a bone, didn't you guys get a little visit from

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Speaker 1: like Protective Services at one point? Man, Like they're like, so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: when we got hurt and we weren't looking, and they

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Speaker 1: kept keeping us there and dragging it on, and eventually

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Speaker 1: they come in. And this guy comes in and the

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Speaker 1: first thing out of his mouth is like, um, what

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Speaker 1: are the strengths and weaknesses of your marriage? I'm like,

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Speaker 1: are you kidding me? Man? Yeah? It's like you gotta

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Speaker 1: heard his leg uh jumping off the couch. So anyways,

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Speaker 1: a but for preorder now, Brodie and I've worked on

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Speaker 1: this book, A bunch um outdoor kids in an inside world.

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Speaker 1: It was it was a it was a project. Man.

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Speaker 1: It's a veil preorder all over the place. Get it now.

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Speaker 1: It's a release date May second or something like that.

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Speaker 1: And it's it's it's an argument. It's inside. It's an

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Speaker 1: argument for and insights into getting your kids, as we

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Speaker 1: put it, radically engaged with nature. That's awesome. I have

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Speaker 1: a six year old and I've been worrying about this

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Speaker 1: quite a lot, just getting him outside because he's on

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Speaker 1: TV and video games and all the sorce. I got

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Speaker 1: him a dog, and now he's outside with the dog

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Speaker 1: all time, walking him all this sort of stuff. So

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Speaker 1: little victory, but it's you know, you gotta keep that,

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Speaker 1: keep that. It is a battle, but it's one of

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Speaker 1: the most important things I think as parents we can

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Speaker 1: do today is get kids outside. Yeah, I think so.

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Speaker 1: I think for both in terms of engagement with um,

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Speaker 1: like just in engagement with ecology and engagement with environmental

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Speaker 1: issues and also just having like a little grit and

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Speaker 1: girl man, Like I don't know, I see value. And

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Speaker 1: I'm not saying it's it's the only way. There's like

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Speaker 1: many paths too, like many paths too. You know, I

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Speaker 1: know I have great friends who raise kids in Manhattan

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Speaker 1: and their kids are brilliant, compassionate, wonderful, right, Like, they

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Speaker 1: don't do really anything outside. I'm not saying that that's

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Speaker 1: the only way to get somewhere, but especially a situation

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Speaker 1: like me is where that's the stuff that I value

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Speaker 1: and I want to like take my bag of tricks

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Speaker 1: and apply it to parenting definitely, you know, because like

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Speaker 1: I want them to see people doing things that they're

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Speaker 1: passionate about. So it's like, and I see people all

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Speaker 1: the time, like everybody names your kid Hunter. That's what

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Speaker 1: they're hoping for. But you know, we've been outside for

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Speaker 1: six million years. Mean, so might stop now exactly bail

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00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: with pre order? Now? That was a spirited pitch. Oh,

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Speaker 1: Brody and Cal both out something with a tag and

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Speaker 1: it can you guys explain? Did you know that he

385
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 1: got some of the tag? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. I caught

386
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:11,160
Speaker 1: a tagged yellow perch the other day through the ice

387
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 1: down on Late Cascade in Idaho, um which is a

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Speaker 1: marketing term, right it's it's a reservoir. But nevertheless, you

389
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,600
Speaker 1: what do you think they should have called it cascade? Reservoir.

390
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: They should call it jumbo perch. Yeah, I mean thirty

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Speaker 1: one thousand. We'll put it this way. There's one tagged

392
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Speaker 1: fish for every thirty seven acres of that lake, which

393
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Speaker 1: is just yeah, I mean I was so excited, so excited.

394
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Speaker 1: It was just I mean I love that stuff. And

395
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Speaker 1: it's uh, you know, it's like getting a tag you're

396
00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: a banded duck or banded goose or something like that.

397
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 1: Didn't have a like a phone number on it. Yeah. Yeah,

398
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 1: So it's a coated wire tag. You know. It's not

399
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: like a tracking tag or transmitter tag or anything like that.

400
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 1: But yeah, you can call in, Um did you just

401
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 1: call in? Act? I called on on the Unfortunately, it's

402
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: like automated, you know, um, and there you know, and

403
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 1: then they're doing like the normal biologist thing of like

404
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: while we got you on the line, we're gonna try

405
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: to extract even more information from you, you know, like

406
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Speaker 1: how far did you drive, did you enjoy your experience,

407
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: how would you rate your experience, did you like the fish,

408
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: how would you rate your fish? How far did you drive? Oh,

409
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,199
Speaker 1: I mean it's because they wanted to know, like what

410
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 1: your level of commitment was, right, It was a long

411
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean a long haul get into that uh Cascade reservoir.

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Speaker 1: Uh did you say the tag? Do you to keep it? Yeah?

413
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 1: I mean I had every intention of keeping the tag,

414
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Speaker 1: and I put it in the front pocket of my bibs.

415
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: And I must have you know, I had other fish

416
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Speaker 1: and stuff in there, and I must have been around

417
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: the gin around. You're keeping your fish in the front

418
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: pocket of your bibs. I was keeping just the tag

419
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Speaker 1: the front pocket of the bibbs because it was very

420
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: obvious to remember which fish it was, because it was

421
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Speaker 1: a fifteen and a half inch two plus pound perch.

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00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:11,119
Speaker 1: So you put the tagged fish in the pocket, or

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Speaker 1: you pulled the tag out and pulled the tag out

424
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: as if did at that point you had a bunch

425
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: of fish. I'm gonna keep it. Yeah, yeah, hearing out

426
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,760
Speaker 1: of it. But I have I have all the data

427
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: because you did get it. You did get it. You

428
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 1: lost it after getting everything you needed. Don't you think

429
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 1: it will turn up though? Yeah? I hope. So I

430
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: looked looked all over. Um, but yeah, that, I mean

431
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: that was super cool, like what what what are the odds?

432
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 1: And the fact that it was a huge fish. Um,

433
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: And really just you know, like looking on the map

434
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: looking for old river channels and stuff and poking holes

435
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: through the ice. There wasn't anything like super crazy about it.

436
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 1: You know. It's just of serious luck of the draw thing.

437
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: I don't win anything, so that was fun. Um. Yeah,

438
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 1: did you get any information on that fish, like as

439
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: far as like how old it was, uh, not age

440
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: because it was tagged as a grown up right right, Yeah,

441
00:25:11,920 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 1: but it was tagged a year prior, basically a year

442
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 1: prior at fourteen point six inches in length, and we

443
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: measured it at fifteen and a half inches in length.

444
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: So the odd anomaly there is that it grew really

445
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: really fast in comparison to all their other fish, like

446
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,159
Speaker 1: the rates of growth or are real slow, which I

447
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 1: pointed out to cal Um. It's actually a negative commentary

448
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: on his angling skills, right, it's like that fish because

449
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: their fish everything. Um. The one of the most amazing

450
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: things that I learned down there was that they've taken

451
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 1: a lot of pictures of the growth rings on their

452
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: gill play. They're gorgeous, um and on. So the odo

453
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: lith that earbone that you typically read about folks aging

454
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,879
Speaker 1: fish off of, well on yellow perch the um the

455
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: big gill plate with a little spike on the back.

456
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: Actually you can age as well, and you just boil

457
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,240
Speaker 1: that thing out, scrape the meat off of it, put

458
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: it underneath the um like backlight it and you should

459
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 1: be able to see some rings. If you can get

460
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: a microscope, you can see all the rings. Uh. And

461
00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: that's that's cool. We should mess around with that a

462
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: little bit. Get get set up for that. Yeah, be

463
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: real fun. You're gonna get it soft, you're gonna eat it.

464
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 1: What is h already ate it? Oh? You know that

465
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: might have been a good idea to get it stuffed

466
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: with it. So here's the funny fish stuffed is all

467
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: a lie. They don't have to fish. They don't stuff

468
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 1: to fish, which is fine because then you can release

469
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: it if you want to. You can get the measurements

470
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 1: and pictures and release it and right listen, man, I

471
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 1: see what you're getting at. It's a lie. It's a lie.

472
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: It's it's a big fish tail. But so here's the

473
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,080
Speaker 1: funny thing. Like I sent that picture to Chester and

474
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: Seth and like, well that'd be something to consider actually mounting.

475
00:27:09,880 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: And I was like I kind of would be neat

476
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,440
Speaker 1: and what would that be Like, well, Um, I'm talking

477
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: with biologistic fishing game Jordan Messner and he's like, yeah, hey,

478
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: the Idaho Fishing Game. And he's like, hey, swing in

479
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 1: to the office. We have a reproduction of the world

480
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 1: record catch and release perch. And I was like, all right, sweet.

481
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: So going to the office, I'm looking at all the

482
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: mounts on the wall. Key back up. Okay, why were

483
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,479
Speaker 1: you on the phone with him? I had to return

484
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:47,679
Speaker 1: his hockey skates. I borrowed his. Uh. And while okay,

485
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: and while arranging this hockey skate drop off, he says,

486
00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: you ought to ye, I got you. Yeah, because I

487
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: was skating. We were conversing with him about the tagged perch. No,

488
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: I actually called him. He was on the ice about

489
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: a quarter mile away from us, and he zipped over

490
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: and checked it out. It was awesome. Um and uh

491
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 1: and we got into a bunch of arguments on stuff,

492
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: and you know, it was very educational. But um in

493
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: the office looking at all the amounts and stuff, right,

494
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: And he comes in and he's like, yeah, there it is.

495
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 1: And I've been looking at this fish and it didn't

496
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: strike me as abnormally large or anything. He climbs up

497
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: on the wall, pulls them out down. I was like, yeah, here,

498
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: check it out. And you know, at the end of

499
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: the day, it's just a fifteen and a half inch fish.

500
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's not like I got one of those

501
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 1: in my pocket out of context. Out of context, it's

502
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: just like not that impressive. But when you're out there

503
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: perch fishing and pulling perch up through the ice. I

504
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,720
Speaker 1: mean I was on cloud night. I was incredibly excited, stoked.

505
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 1: Oh my god, the mouth comes up and you're like,

506
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: I can put my whole thumb in that. You know,

507
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: it's hard. It's like a little bit harder to talk

508
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: about big perch because a big perch is still a

509
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: small fish, and so people are thinking they're going to

510
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 1: see a big fish, but they see what to them

511
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: is a small fish. And then you have to go

512
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: into this whole thing about how it's actually a big perch. Right,

513
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: it's like like the keys white tail, right, Well, actually

514
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: that's not like yeah exactly, this is no. This is

515
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: a very big version of a very small thing. And

516
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 1: the thing you get all the time is uh, is

517
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: that your first ear? Yeah? But it was cool you

518
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: got a tag Kyle help. I didn't. Yeah, I didn't

519
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: notice it was tagged until I was cutting her ivory's

520
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: out because it was it was pretty small. Um. Oh yeah, oh,

521
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 1: here's the tag and put my spectacles back on. Metally

522
00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: your tag? Um, so that was that was pretty interesting.

523
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: They leave you, They leave you a phone number on

524
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: there to call. You're you're in violation of the law

525
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: right now, No, I'm not to the biologists because it

526
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: does return to MF W P on the reporter right now? Um,

527
00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: are they letting you keep this? He didn't ask for

528
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 1: it back? What what's the stats on the cow? She

529
00:30:11,640 --> 00:30:14,920
Speaker 1: was tagged on February first, two thousand and fourteen, so

530
00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: that was eight years ago. Tag three miles from where

531
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: I shot her, so not all that far for an

532
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: elk um and she was I think he said she

533
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: was two and a half years old when she was tagged,

534
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: so she's going on eleven years old. Did you feel

535
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: bad here in that? No? She was a big ass cow,

536
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that. Um her Look how look at

537
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 1: how worn down her eyes? Oh yeah, man, she's knocking

538
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: on Heaven's door there, yea, but choose in great shape.

539
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 1: She was huge. Wow, look at that she the lead cow. No,

540
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: She's like, there's about a hundred of them, and she

541
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: was like, it's a long story, but I've never seen

542
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: an ibady look like that. I know, kid, you pretty

543
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,280
Speaker 1: much pull those things out with your face down to Calahan,

544
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: has he seen that yet? Know? They were anchored in

545
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: their fine And no, she wasn't a lead cal Chester.

546
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: She was just one of a hundred. Um, there was

547
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 1: an albino in the herd, which was real, real cool

548
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 1: to see. The biologist how we didn't shoot that one

549
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: because it was surrounded by a hundred other elk. This

550
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: one was off to the side, you know. Yeah, these

551
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 1: ivories are not like ivories that much different than their

552
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 1: actual like milk teeth that you'd pull out of it.

553
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: Well yeah, those milk teeth on calves are real narrow

554
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: and pointy. Though. Um the uh that's awesome. Oh you

555
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: were asking about the albino. Yeah, no interest and shooting.

556
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: The biology knew about that elk. Oh yeah he said

557
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: he knew, he knew that. That heard that demystifies it. Yep, yep. Um.

558
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: Remember we covered dismember. There was like a famous moose

559
00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: in New Hampshire. Something was it was kind of pie

560
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: alder albino and a guy got it. Everybody got pised

561
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: because they've been seeing it around. I mean they see

562
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: all of them around. They because remember that one. If

563
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: I only seen one and it was albino, I don't

564
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: know what i'd do. But um, yeah, I learned some

565
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: interesting stuff that heard that I shot her out of

566
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: The biologist said, there, it's triple what he would like

567
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: to see, the numbers in population. Yes, I'm just telling

568
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: you what an actual scientist told me. But but but

569
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 1: but I know a few of those fellas, and um,

570
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: that's great. But as I always ask, like according to who, Okay,

571
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you an example, like because like

572
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: he said, the next herd to the south, which you

573
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: cannot hunt. It's in the same unit, but there's a

574
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 1: boundary that you can't cross. That heard, you can't hunt

575
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: because there much lower than what he'd like to see.

576
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 1: That they consider just driving something scurry and something over

577
00:32:59,920 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: the well, maybe air dropping him in there. But you know,

578
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: I thought it was an interesting example. Capacity thing or

579
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: is it a social issue. I'm sure it's a combination

580
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 1: of both. This heard, he said, spends the majority of

581
00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: its time on private Land, so that social part might

582
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: be part of it. Listen, I'm not down on the

583
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 1: social thing. I'm just saying like, well, I hear, like,

584
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 1: you know, you're this kid that would call me. I

585
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: can't figure it out. There's this kid that reached out

586
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: and uh, he's he wanted to interview me, like he

587
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 1: his state doesn't he's a high school or his state

588
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: doesn't have a black bear hunt. Maybe he's from Connecticut,

589
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: I can't remember. And he wrote a really nice letter

590
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 1: that Corey forward aloto me stay in the black bear hunt.

591
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: He's making like a class he has to do it.

592
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,719
Speaker 1: He hasn't make a documentary for his class in high school,

593
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: and he wants to make a documentary by how they

594
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: should have a black bear hunt. And he wanted to

595
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 1: interview me, and like his documentary focus is going to

596
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: be that if we don't have a black bear hunt,

597
00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: there will be too many black bears and it will

598
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: cause all these problems. And I said, call me, you're

599
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: barking up the wrong tree. And he hasn't called me.

600
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 1: Like that's not gonna like, no one's gonna be like

601
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: we're just overrun with high school. I was gonna say, no,

602
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: high schooler wants to go rewrite there, or maybe you

603
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: just I'm just saying like you're not like like that's

604
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,919
Speaker 1: not a convincing argument to people. Like people aren't gonna

605
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:25,640
Speaker 1: picture they're not. It's like there's a hundred other ways

606
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 1: to approach it, but approaching like that all the time,

607
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, if we don't, we're gonna be overrun

608
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: by bears. It's like probably not thought it was interesting

609
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: that it was a case of like heard by herd management,

610
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: like yeah, I got you. I'm just like, it's just

611
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 1: people I think jump a little bit. I used to

612
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,200
Speaker 1: just accepted at face value over like over objective, overpopulated,

613
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: and but once you get into you realize this is

614
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 1: just a million factors that going like according to who

615
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:57,480
Speaker 1: is like, automobile insurers have a perspective on deer numbers, right, uh,

616
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: Triple A has a perspective on deer numbers. Agriculture has

617
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 1: a perspective on deer numbers. Um subdivisions with a lot

618
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 1: of expensive what do you call it landscaping have a

619
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: perspective on deer hunter deer numbers, and it doesn't always

620
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,439
Speaker 1: mirror the perspective of a deer hunter dear, I'm trying.

621
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: I'm saying, dear, dear, numbers. That's all, you know, all

622
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: of this. Um, I got one hot fact I forgot

623
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 1: to throw in there. On the perch. How how old

624
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: is perch? How old is the oldest perch? Years old?

625
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,840
Speaker 1: Oh that's high. I hope people do that to me

626
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: seven anybody else? Twelve nine six, So prior to late Cascade,

627
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 1: which now has I think two world records and and

628
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 1: all the Idaho state records. Um, there's a perch age

629
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: and I think in Wyoming and nine years old now,

630
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: like Cascade is just like in this crazy zone of

631
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: like they're positive these fish are dying of old age.

632
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: I'm not sure at what rate, but their oldest recorded

633
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 1: perches fourteen just a special perch place. Are they worried

634
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 1: about that fishery crashing? You know how perch populations can.

635
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: So it's gone through several down down periods. Um, But

636
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 1: it's like what's considered a crash type of thing, and

637
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: and a perch crash is typically like that missing age

638
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 1: class and and how strong the next age classes or

639
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 1: the previous age class was to where anglers will notice it. Yeah,

640
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: so sometimes it will change like you'll have a fishery

641
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 1: with like big fish like they have there, and then

642
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: something happens and it's just a lot of little fish. Yeah,

643
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: you boys might have to take off. That's a good one.

644
00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: Speaking of records, that was a good cran. Speaking of records,

645
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: a guy wrote in about he's curious, like he was

646
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 1: disappointed to see that in Boone and Crockett you can't

647
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: enter a squirrel just like a bear. And he's like yeah,

648
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: but he's like, well, how would you measure it? Anyways?

649
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 1: And I was going to explain him that anything that

650
00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: doesn't have antlers is just skull size, So like black bears,

651
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 1: there's nothing to do turkey. Yeah, but I think I

652
00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: think that that's a I don't mean to be Debbie

653
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: Downer to day, but the way they do turkeys, I

654
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: think is a real stretch, because what do you like

655
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 1: about it? Because it has multiple beards, you get to

656
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: keep measuring all the beards. If you had multiple antlers,

657
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:43,360
Speaker 1: you'd keep measuring the antlers. All right, Okay, explain that.

658
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: Let me do this first. With the exception of turkeys,

659
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: everything I'm aware of in the mammal Okay, let me

660
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: put it this way. Everything I'm worried of in the

661
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 1: mammal kingdom, and the mammal world is not a kingdom?

662
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 1: Is it? What is it? And may amals uh? If

663
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: it doesn't have antlers you just measured, it's Lengthen with

664
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: the skull, I don't think I can argue with that.

665
00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: So to be consistent, I don't think he's the one.

666
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: Can he should they measure the tail the weight. I

667
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:14,719
Speaker 1: think it's just it would just wind up needing to

668
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: be like if you're gonna do a fox squirrel world record,

669
00:38:17,360 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 1: I think you have to keep it clean, and you

670
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,359
Speaker 1: do length of skull plus width of skull, and it's

671
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 1: just like that's how mountain lions bears have Lina's. It's

672
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 1: like all that stuff done that way. So I don't

673
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: think you could break from that. Spencer brings up the

674
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,080
Speaker 1: very good point that they came up with what he's

675
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: after for squirrels in the Turkey world, so he'd be

676
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: like he'd be like weight of squirrel plus inches of tail, YadA, YadA, YadA.

677
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: You've got a personal stake in this, right, No, I

678
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: thought you did. I thought you had some kind of

679
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: I have the South Dakota Archery real grand record. Okay

680
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 1: you do. Yeah, it's a triple bearded bird. I shot

681
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 1: in so that's a non So you've done what I'm

682
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 1: talking about where you keep measuring the beard. Yeah, I

683
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 1: like scoring them. It's just like fun man. So off

684
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: top my head. I think you figure out the spur

685
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: length on both legs and then you take that times ten.

686
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: So if you have one spurs one inch, okay, so

687
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: you got you know, two, you got twenty. I think

688
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: you take all your beard lengths times too sure, and

689
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: then you have your weight, which there's no modifier on.

690
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: Well why not why not be like in times by three. Well,

691
00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 1: I think my guests an event to scoring, it's too

692
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:43,799
Speaker 1: uh like make the numbers fairly yeah, because you have

693
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: a twenty two pound turkey who has two inch spurs.

694
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: Now you have twenty plus twenty two and then say

695
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 1: you have a nine inch beard, times to eighteen, so

696
00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 1: they're fairly like we're trying to give equal weight and

697
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:57,799
Speaker 1: all these things because some guy could shoot. I get it,

698
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: because you should have Turkey is a little eight on weight.

699
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: He's been rotten, hard, has been eaten, but he's got

700
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: like big limb hangers, big hooks and that guy is

701
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: gonna get screwed. I like this guy's idea. Um, I

702
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: think one issue would be overall weight. There's not a

703
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 1: lot of critters you shoot where they may lose weight

704
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: because of like where your twenty two bullet passed through

705
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: or something like that. Should you hear my my turkey

706
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:27,399
Speaker 1: competition story? So I was enrolled in uh some town

707
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: by Doug drn and Dug durn doesn't like people from

708
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: this town. It's ah el Roy. Yeah, this is a

709
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: whole funny story. That's what I feel like. I told

710
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: the story though there the drunkards of el Roy had

711
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 1: a turkey derby, and uh, I'm mostly joke about Dog's

712
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: distaste for el Roy. Doug talks about Elroy like it's

713
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 1: the other side of the planet, but it's like about

714
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: a five minute driveways. What's so funny about it because

715
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: he's like talks like, oh my god, over in el Roy.

716
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: I'm like talking, it's right there to Wisconsin. So anyways,

717
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: and now I was signed up for the Elroy Turkey

718
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: Derby and it just goes by way of bird. But

719
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 1: I gutted my turkey, so I bring it up. It

720
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: was a huge turkey and I bring it down and

721
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: I was like leading, and then I got beat by

722
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: some other guy, but not like a gut's worth of lead.

723
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 1: He beat me by like not a gut, like a

724
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:21,040
Speaker 1: full gut amount. Days later, we stopped in that bar

725
00:41:21,040 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: because this guy hunt with had to go find this

726
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 1: old man who is always down there, and we're going

727
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: and they're still sitting there the turkey talking about it.

728
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: Days later. What an idiot. Yeah, I go snoop to tail.

729
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: That's a big thing. Now it's a hunting public. Guy

730
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 1: started that. You lay your turkey flat, and it's the

731
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: long bird measurement. You you stretched the snoot out as

732
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:42,920
Speaker 1: far as possible and then you go from the tip

733
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: of that all the way to the furthest tail feather.

734
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: I think it should be this. It's just like it's

735
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: stretched spur length. It's spur. It should be subspecies, but

736
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: it's not actually a subspecies, but subspecies m hm spur

737
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 1: length because rios have big freaking hooks, right, and so

738
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:08,520
Speaker 1: you gotta like break it down like that, and you

739
00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 1: draw a line like like you're measuring the tying on

740
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: a deer. You draw a line down the leg as

741
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: though the spur were not there, and then take a

742
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 1: micrometer and Marry measure the spur and stop all this

743
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: multiply and everything. But why aren't there non typical? Right?

744
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: So shouldn't your beard your triple beard bird being non typical?

745
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: And then you guys would do your thing where you

746
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:43,240
Speaker 1: do with I feel like net or gross um. Alright, lastly,

747
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: when we're talking about before we get into the you

748
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: know the main thing stolen tool technology, Indian arrowheads? Um,

749
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: do you guys? You guys don't say that, do you No?

750
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: Usually we say projectile points or you know, it depends

751
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: on time period two. So when you are a little kid,

752
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 1: did you say Indian arrowheads? Yeah? You know. We just

753
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: got this book. I sent it to so Hank type spencer.

754
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: We had a we had a great guest on, a

755
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,120
Speaker 1: guy named Taylor keen Um. He's a Native American activist,

756
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:16,360
Speaker 1: and we had no I want to want to call

757
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 1: it a debate, but but we kind of debated the

758
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 1: two perspectives of the perspective of someone who sees a

759
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: Indian arrow headland on the ground and puts in his

760
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: pocket and wants to go put in his desk drawer

761
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:32,480
Speaker 1: for his own enjoyment and personal you know, aggrandizement whatever

762
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: h versus the perspective of it being like that's a

763
00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 1: thing of someone else that has value being there. Um,

764
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: it could tell a story that needs to be left

765
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:47,360
Speaker 1: in place, and so leave it put out of respect

766
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: for the people who made it and out of respect.

767
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: You know. We had this whole debate someone on Yanni recently.

768
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: Someone sent Yanni this book. I sent to Taylor Keen

769
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: just has a joke a text message about the books.

770
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: It was like, um, the idea, how do I identify

771
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: and value Indian arrowheads? It's like it was like a

772
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: trading it was like a trading book. Oh yeah about

773
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: arrow heads? Like worth about you know, artifacts around the

774
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: world are sold and all over the place. I think,

775
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 1: after guns and drugs, antiquities is the third most profitable

776
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,920
Speaker 1: trade illegal trade. Yeah, okay, sounds way cooler than the

777
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: other two. So so talk about what you're gonna talk about.

778
00:44:26,920 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: We have an Instagram message for someone, says, dear Spencer.

779
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: My name is Declan and I'm a freshman in high school.

780
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you had any ideas for a

781
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: science for your project related to meet eaters four verticals.

782
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 1: I was just looking for an idea that is out

783
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 1: of the box and not basic, like which plant gross taller?

784
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 1: So what do we got for him? That's a basic

785
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: science idea too, Declin? Yes, what dec where we dealing with?

786
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: Decline Harrington Declino Murphy says he's a minor. I don't

787
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: know that. I should say probably don't know. I just

788
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: want to get in origin just so, And you're bringing

789
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:02,320
Speaker 1: this up because of it? Well, this seems like a

790
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: room that could I d ate some good science. Well

791
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: I thought maybe you were thinking like a related to stone.

792
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: Maybe that'd be good. Knives the poop knives be great.

793
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,319
Speaker 1: I think if he wants to sing, would be really good.

794
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,320
Speaker 1: But then debates already been settled. Science needs to be replicated.

795
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,400
Speaker 1: So well, yeah, just something around poop knives. There you

796
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: go as way into this can, Well, let's come back

797
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: to it. I gotta I gotta handful of ideas. Um,

798
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: he could do it. Here's one. How about he does this?

799
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:40,120
Speaker 1: Where's he live? I don't know? Mhmm. Let's say he

800
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: lives in a squirrel area. Go out and start weighing squirrels,

801
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 1: measuring their tails, and then measure their skull and see

802
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: if it's like inverse or not. See if it's like

803
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 1: a good correlation. If he's like, hey, man, it turns

804
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 1: out big as squirrels a big long tails at big

805
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: gas skulls. So that's what you're barking up the right tree,

806
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: so to speak. Uh. If he turns out that like

807
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 1: huge squirrel, huge tail, little teeny skull, then we might

808
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: know that that's not that'd be a good project for him.

809
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 1: There you go, What were you thinking? I think there's

810
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 1: a lot of stealth around cooking for opportunities. Um. Like

811
00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: one one thing you hear all the time, especially with

812
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: your Louisiana crawfish pond friends, is that like if you

813
00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: cook a crawfish and it comes out with a straight tail,

814
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: it's a bad crawfish to win in the pot dead.

815
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:28,239
Speaker 1: But I don't think that's true. That's something you can

816
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 1: easily test and solve a mystery for a lot of folks.

817
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,359
Speaker 1: I think there's also something with like um eggs that

818
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: if you have a chicken egg and if it sinks,

819
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,480
Speaker 1: I think it's it's old, right, or if it floats

820
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 1: it's it's fresh. I don't know the exact Yeah, but

821
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 1: here's the thing, man, people already have done all that stuff,

822
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: but they haven't done the squirrel head thing. Okay, I

823
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 1: bet people have solved all the mysteries that this Science

824
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,359
Speaker 1: Fair freshman class goes after you anyway. Oh, so you're

825
00:46:57,400 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: saying they're all gonna take a cheap shot, probably a

826
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: lot of paper mache volcanoes. You got any idea scale?

827
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: You know, back in my Science Fair days, there's literally

828
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: like a book of Science Fair projects. Right, so, um,

829
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 1: science doesn't need to be repeated. I would just from

830
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:24,919
Speaker 1: the bird hunting this year, I think it would be

831
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: great to get some new definitive uh data on penetration

832
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 1: on different um makeups shotgun shells, Like he's like all

833
00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: ounce or two and three quarter inch for this kid man?

834
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 1: Why not shooting into what? Oh he can come up

835
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,719
Speaker 1: with anything, phone books? Oh, I see right, and just

836
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,959
Speaker 1: look at like penetration of bismuth versus tongue, stend versus lab.

837
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: It's on parents day, he's on the parking lot. Boom,

838
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: go ahead, step on up, take a shot. You know

839
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:10,800
Speaker 1: something that non hunters are easily fascinated by is trail cameras.

840
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: If you're ever watching a show on like Animal Planet

841
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: or like something on Discovery where they're looking for bigfoot

842
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,680
Speaker 1: and they're using a trail camera. They don't call it

843
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:23,080
Speaker 1: a trail camera. They're like, yeah, camera trap. Um, that's

844
00:48:23,120 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 1: motion activated with night vision or whatever. You could just

845
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:27,600
Speaker 1: like this, dude, want an easy way out. You can

846
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:29,600
Speaker 1: just go through some trail cameras and be like I

847
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: took a survey of the mammals on this piece of

848
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: public land in central Hio or whatever where trail cameras

849
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:44,680
Speaker 1: are now illegal. Yeah, but trail cameras aren't illegal in

850
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:49,120
Speaker 1: any states for not hunting purposes. Yeah, but if you're

851
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 1: hunting big foot, that's true. By way of introduction, by

852
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 1: way of introduction to your work, do you mind addressing

853
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: the poop knife quickly? No, definitely. Um. The reason why

854
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: I went into archaeology and anthropology was because when I

855
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: was a teenager, I heard on NPR the Diane Reem Show.

856
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: Uh the boy, Yeah, that's she's a throat. She does

857
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 1: there's a cancer. No, I don't think it is what

858
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: I'm talking about. I had a friend referred to her

859
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: always as dying ream. That's just horrible, horrible out. I

860
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:39,000
Speaker 1: was listened man imagine that being that imagine being in

861
00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: this situation that she's that she's toughed out, like she

862
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: has to be in this situation of being that you're

863
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,000
Speaker 1: like you are your voice. America recognizes your voice, that know,

864
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 1: you are your voice of authority, and then you're stricken

865
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: with the health issue that impacts your voice. It's like

866
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: almost like Shakespearean. You can imagine how cool I was

867
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:00,239
Speaker 1: as a teenager listening to Diane Um. You know, yeah,

868
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 1: did you tell all the guys on the school bus

869
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 1: about there? Definitely and definitely it was you know. Um.

870
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 1: But Way Davis who's an ethnobotanist and anthropologist, was on

871
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 1: the show promoting his new book, and the book it

872
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,879
Speaker 1: was called Shadows in the Sun. Um, really great book

873
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: about ego tourism. And uh. He told the story that

874
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 1: one of his Inuit informants told him, Um that allegedly

875
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,880
Speaker 1: his grandfather in the nineteen fifties and his family was

876
00:50:28,920 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: being moved off of their ancestral homeland in the Canadian Arctic,

877
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 1: and he didn't want to go because it was his land.

878
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: So his family was trying to convince him to come

879
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: in the igloo and they would leave the next day

880
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: for the new reservation or area to go, and he

881
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,799
Speaker 1: stood outside the igloo and protests and said I'm not

882
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: coming in. And day turned to night and got pretty

883
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 1: cold in the Arctic, and they took away all of

884
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 1: his tools and all of his utilities to convince him,

885
00:50:54,960 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: like come inside. What are you gonna do? You have

886
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 1: got nothing, You can't survive out there. So aged. So

887
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: the story goes, uh, this guy defecated into his own hands,

888
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: and as his feces froze, he honed them into the

889
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 1: shape of a knife, and he sharpened that knife with

890
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,399
Speaker 1: the spray of saliva, and he called over a dog

891
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: and murdered it with this knife, butchered it, turned the

892
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 1: dog's rib cage into a sled, used the dog's hide

893
00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: to harness another dog, and he sped off into the night.

894
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 1: So I heard this story as a teenager, and I

895
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:30,000
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, that's amazing. I want to

896
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,840
Speaker 1: study anthropology and learn about technologies of of indigenous people.

897
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 1: And well, little did I know, twenty years later I

898
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: found the Kent State Experiment Archaeology Lab and where we

899
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:43,520
Speaker 1: can make any artifact from the last three million years

900
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,080
Speaker 1: of human technology, And it was a few years ago,

901
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 1: I was thinking, well, what's gonna be our next lab project?

902
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 1: And I remember that story and I remember texting my

903
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,200
Speaker 1: co director Dr Michelle Beber, and I said, Hey, I've

904
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 1: got a great idea for our next experiment. She's like,

905
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:04,360
Speaker 1: really what? And I'm like, do you remember that story

906
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: that way Davis told about the Inuit? And I just

907
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: left it at that, no no comment back, no comment back.

908
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: Then I see the little text dots. Oh my god,

909
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:18,240
Speaker 1: is what you texted back. So we decided to test

910
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: this idea that you can make a functional knife out

911
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: of your own frozen feces, and uh, you guys have

912
00:52:25,239 --> 00:52:27,719
Speaker 1: to use your own faces. So I went on an

913
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: arctic diet for two weeks and uh, yeah, that's what

914
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:37,279
Speaker 1: I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. And uh and what

915
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: was that high end protein in fat? Yeah protein, lots

916
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:44,720
Speaker 1: of salmon, uh, lots of other fish, fatty meats. Um.

917
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 1: I do have a kid. So occasionally there was a

918
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: couple missteps. It took had to finish the apple sauce

919
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:52,760
Speaker 1: once and his macaron cheese. But we actually in the paper,

920
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: the published paper, we detailed the whole diet for thee

921
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 1: and uh, then I started to produce the raw materials

922
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 1: and you know, it's it was amazing. And it was

923
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: a process because you find that the change and diet

924
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: had a change change the b m oh yeah definitely. Um. Also,

925
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 1: just like my overall movement, Yeah, well my whole attitude

926
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: to like, I just became real depressed. And I think

927
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:18,879
Speaker 1: it was because you know, we've got this awesome lab

928
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: at Kent State where we can shoot stuff and create

929
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: any artifact out of metal or ceramic or stone whatever.

930
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,279
Speaker 1: But instead of being in my awesome lab, I'm at

931
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:31,919
Speaker 1: home pooping in a bag um, which I then would

932
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: store in my freezer because we needed statistically valid sample

933
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 1: sizes and so I produced a lot of raw materials,

934
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: saving them all up um. And so uh we then

935
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: got dry ice negative fifty degree centigrade, so really cold

936
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,040
Speaker 1: temperatures to make sure we're replicating the Arctic, and uh

937
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: started making this stuff. And um, we got some pork

938
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:02,000
Speaker 1: and try to to butcher the pork with these knives.

939
00:54:02,040 --> 00:54:04,480
Speaker 1: And we gave ourselves some advantages too, because I really

940
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: want to be able to say, like that ship cut it.

941
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: But so there was no hair on the pork, right

942
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,239
Speaker 1: because that could mess up your blade like the dog

943
00:54:15,280 --> 00:54:18,720
Speaker 1: would have. Also, the pork was refrigerated, it wasn't warm

944
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: like a freshly killed dog would be, you know, because

945
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,480
Speaker 1: I would melt your knife. Um, and I had a

946
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: file in some cases to sharpen my my ship as

947
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,879
Speaker 1: much as I could. Did other people have to mess

948
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: with it too? Well, we actually replicated our own experiment.

949
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 1: Dr Beber repeated the entire experience with the Western diet

950
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: where it was funny because she didn't know she was

951
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: going to repeat it and she had just happened to

952
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:48,120
Speaker 1: have Wendy's twice that day. So in the published paper

953
00:54:48,160 --> 00:54:51,840
Speaker 1: we had to detail, you know, the fact that in

954
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: history so frosty, yeah, get that. You know, I think

955
00:54:57,200 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: spaghetti too. But the point is when we went to

956
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: cut this stuff, um, we could not cut anything. Just streaks, right,

957
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: just a different source of streak, but this time on

958
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: the meat, and uh, just the friction from trying to

959
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: do the butchery melted the blade edge. So where do

960
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 1: you think actually happened that the Well, so there's a

961
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,400
Speaker 1: couple of hypotheses, right, Um, what I actually think happened

962
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,719
Speaker 1: is and we this has been documented time and time

963
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:29,760
Speaker 1: again when you have anthropologists and ethnographers studying indigenous people.

964
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:35,240
Speaker 1: Sometimes indigenous folks just get sick of getting studied, and uh,

965
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 1: you know, they sometimes will just make up stuff to

966
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:41,080
Speaker 1: entertain themselves or to just have a laugh. And yeah,

967
00:55:41,120 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: and and that's been documented. Um and so it's possible

968
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,640
Speaker 1: that that person told Wade Davis just a story and

969
00:55:48,920 --> 00:55:52,240
Speaker 1: sort of as went into the literature. Who knows, maybe

970
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,280
Speaker 1: it did happen, because the conditions of reality are different

971
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 1: than the conditions in the lab and we've got to

972
00:55:57,640 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: balance those two things. Um. So I get it. The

973
00:56:02,280 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: evidence laboratory wise does not support the idea that you

974
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 1: can make a knife out of your own frozen crap.

975
00:56:08,080 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: And my favorite quote from that paper was it was

976
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:16,279
Speaker 1: like a brown crayon. It was like a brown cran um. Also, too,

977
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: we we managed to slip in there that I regularly

978
00:56:19,120 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 1: produced the materials for several weeks. There's a bunch of jokes.

979
00:56:23,160 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: We want an Ignoble prize. Does that mean so the

980
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 1: ignobles ignoble? Yeah, he doesn't get it now, so the

981
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: Nobel prize and then ignobles like shame type in going

982
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:42,000
Speaker 1: to your computer, type in ignoble. But it's uh for

983
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,000
Speaker 1: science that first makes you laugh and then makes you think.

984
00:56:45,040 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: So it's the funniest science. And so in we won

985
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: the Ignoble for for that study. So it's cool because

986
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:55,880
Speaker 1: you know they're presented at Harvard and you get to

987
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: go there. Did your university get maddy about it? So

988
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 1: it's funny because we did all the ethics and stuff

989
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: before we did the study, and uh, I remember sitting

990
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 1: down with the director of research and they were like,

991
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:11,120
Speaker 1: you know, we're we're we got mixed feelings about the

992
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,879
Speaker 1: study that you want to do because you know, when

993
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,120
Speaker 1: you type into google Kent State, one of the first

994
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: things that comes up is the May fourth shootings soldiers

995
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: and Nixon. Yeah that's right, Yeah, play that ship bill,

996
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: And so they were like, this study might change that,

997
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: but it's a shame that it's going to be Kent

998
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,439
Speaker 1: State poop knife. Um. And so man, I can see like, dude,

999
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: which you know that's a real that's a real question. Yeah,

1000
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: and well we we did it. So now how I

1001
00:57:47,160 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: founded the paper. I was researching for an article on

1002
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: Peter Fruakin, who claimed to have been stuck in a

1003
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: blizzard in the Arctic and he crawled underneath his sled

1004
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: to survive, and he was there for thirty hours and

1005
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:02,479
Speaker 1: a blizzard was so bad that a wall of ice

1006
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:04,920
Speaker 1: formed around him. And he said, in a moment of genius,

1007
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: he defecated, turned that ship into a chisel, and then

1008
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: broke his way out. That was the only way he

1009
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,840
Speaker 1: could escape this little coffin that had formed around him.

1010
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 1: And the only information online available to help solve whether

1011
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: or not this could have really happened was your paper.

1012
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: Well and and so that's really interesting because in peer

1013
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 1: review and then afterward colleagues and stuff said, well, you know,

1014
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 1: Peter Freakan allegedly, you know, made his chisel, so your

1015
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:32,520
Speaker 1: your knife paper has to be wrong. And we said, well,

1016
00:58:32,600 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 1: knives and chisels are different. And also to the substrates

1017
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:40,560
Speaker 1: cut um meat versus snow that those are different variables.

1018
00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: So the Peter Freakan story could be true and the

1019
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,560
Speaker 1: Inuit story could be false. They're just this is variables

1020
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:49,520
Speaker 1: and science. Now. I think something else to considered with

1021
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,280
Speaker 1: Peter's story is that he was the only witness to it.

1022
00:58:52,760 --> 00:58:55,120
Speaker 1: He talked about, I think for the first time in

1023
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 1: his autobiography, The Vagrant and Viking Um, he had a

1024
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 1: personality that wanted to attract fame. He was like sort

1025
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 1: of a low key Hollywood socialite. He was in movies,

1026
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 1: he directed movies. He would go to Hollywood parties and

1027
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: throw actresses over his head. Um, like he really liked

1028
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: the attention. He would on the game show the sixty

1029
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 1: four thousand dollar Question. Um. So the question though, is like,

1030
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: if you've got all these options to make up how

1031
00:59:19,520 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: you broke out of an ice strip, right, why would

1032
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 1: you go with poop chisel? Because he maybe he had

1033
00:59:25,280 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: heard that story that you had heard, well, Peter Freak,

1034
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 1: and that her peppened. So this story happened in the

1035
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:38,680
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, it would be he would also in your

1036
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,760
Speaker 1: list there, Spencer have to be wearing garments that lacked

1037
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: any sort of pockets or carrying capacity whatsoever. I mean,

1038
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 1: there's just not from the second I get dressed out

1039
00:59:49,000 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 1: of the shower, there's not a situation that I'm in

1040
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: where I don't have something in my pocket that would

1041
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: be better than a poop chisel. Yeah. So, based on

1042
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: your paper and Peter's personality, I don't think he did it.

1043
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,320
Speaker 1: I'm not buying him. The high schooler needs a project.

1044
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: There you go, yeah, yeah, needs to replicate that you

1045
01:00:12,360 --> 01:00:15,920
Speaker 1: replicated the other thing. He needs to replicate that if

1046
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: we knew where this dude lived, to be real helpful,

1047
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 1: it's like Florida where it's really hot Florida. That would

1048
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 1: be the worst poop knife of all time. So if

1049
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,640
Speaker 1: you want to read the article that I had reference

1050
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: his paper, it's fact checker did explore Peter freaking save

1051
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 1: his life with a poop chisel. Can find that on

1052
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: the meteor dot com. I wrote it in one great plod. Yeah,

1053
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:39,320
Speaker 1: the the decline name. I'm still thinking he's like Irish

1054
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: bunny camp be in the sun too long, probably in

1055
01:00:41,560 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 1: northern climates. Okay, trying to think out. There's a million

1056
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: ways to get into I'm trying to think of how

1057
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 1: best to get into it. Let's get into it like this.

1058
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: We was talking about the poop knife. Explain, um, why

1059
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,120
Speaker 1: explain the question about Clovis and go as broad as

1060
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 1: you want, meaning um you can kind because there's the

1061
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 1: thing we've talked about extensively, is like the blitz Creeg hypothesis. Okay,

1062
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: so however you want to set it up, walk us

1063
01:01:18,040 --> 01:01:25,040
Speaker 1: into the paper. You recently did about did these boys

1064
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:29,640
Speaker 1: really go out and make stone projectile points and take

1065
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,360
Speaker 1: down how big or mammoths real big? You know, like

1066
01:01:33,400 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: two tons? Oh yeah, easily? Were they chiseling little stone

1067
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: points and knocking mammoths down? Alright? So why is that?

1068
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 1: Why is that a question that sort of goes beyond

1069
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 1: just simple curiosity. So mega fauna, right, thirty five genera

1070
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 1: of mega fauna when extinct at the end of the

1071
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,120
Speaker 1: Plaza scene, so about ten thou years ago, um. And

1072
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:59,200
Speaker 1: the big question is whether or not humans in North

1073
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: America had any role in those extinctions. And that speaks

1074
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 1: to two larger philosophical issues about you know, our nature

1075
01:02:06,760 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: and balanced with you know, ecosystems and all this sort

1076
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: of stuff. So people that use Clovis technology were some

1077
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 1: of the very first people on the continent and and

1078
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: we know Clovis spoke state to around thirteen thousand, six

1079
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: hundred years ago. Now, back in the fifties and the sixties,

1080
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:28,480
Speaker 1: when archaeologists were really getting into the study of Clovis,

1081
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: they noticed that, wow, just as Clovis people seem to

1082
01:02:31,960 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 1: be traveling across the continent, all these mega fauna really

1083
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: seem to be dying, and so there must be a

1084
01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: connection there. There's co variance, but not just around the continent,

1085
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 1: around the world. Man, well look at the islands that

1086
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: wound up having ma'am is still four thousand years ago.

1087
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 1: What happened four thousand years ago? Dude showed up Wrangle

1088
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:54,600
Speaker 1: Wrangle island. That's true. Now, there's there's two issues with that.

1089
01:02:55,480 --> 01:02:59,000
Speaker 1: One is that island extinctions are different than continental extinctions.

1090
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 1: They have one dude show up. The other issues that

1091
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,080
Speaker 1: paper just recently came out that showed that mammoths were

1092
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:12,120
Speaker 1: surviving um in northern regions until very recently. So we

1093
01:03:12,120 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: did not cause their extinction. Yeah and so yeah, so,

1094
01:03:17,680 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: but it's a good point. Island. We we are terrible

1095
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 1: on islands, Like the wrinkle is not that big too.

1096
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: So like there's all these other factors that I'll let

1097
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:31,520
Speaker 1: you go on. But you got a lot of inbreeding, uh, shrinking,

1098
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:38,080
Speaker 1: malformed mammoths on that island to where it could be

1099
01:03:38,120 --> 01:03:40,919
Speaker 1: possible that the people who do show up and kill them,

1100
01:03:41,760 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: maybe they weren't so great, Maybe their timing was great. Yeah,

1101
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to get into it. Steve's like I

1102
01:03:50,320 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 1: descended from these people who killed mammoths, and I'm very

1103
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: proud of that. Well, there's an issue too as to

1104
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 1: whether or not we hunted mammoths versus hunted them to extinction.

1105
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: And so I don't think anyone doubts that on occasion

1106
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:09,040
Speaker 1: people that use Clovis technology hunted mammoths. You know, there's

1107
01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 1: there's archaeological evidence that on some occasions that seem to

1108
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: have occurred. Um, the big question is whether we hunted

1109
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:20,440
Speaker 1: them so much with the Clovis fluted point, um, that

1110
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,000
Speaker 1: we wiped them out. Yeah, because a guy like me

1111
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,520
Speaker 1: grew up seeing a Clovis point and saying that was

1112
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: made for killing mammoth and clothes points are awesome. Um,

1113
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:35,400
Speaker 1: I am grabbing one. You gotta describe. Clovis points are

1114
01:04:35,760 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 1: tend to twelve centimeters five or six inches. Um, they're

1115
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:43,840
Speaker 1: beautifully flaked. It took me years to learn how to

1116
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 1: make an accurate Clovis point. We can pass them around.

1117
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: I brought huge so you wanted to kill a mammoth

1118
01:04:49,160 --> 01:04:51,320
Speaker 1: with it? Well, you can get really small ones too.

1119
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: There's some small ones over tiny maoth over here, little

1120
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 1: tiny ones. Um, that beautiful and uh, and they've got

1121
01:05:00,000 --> 01:05:02,480
Speaker 1: these channels. I want to hold one of the big ones. Yeah,

1122
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:07,919
Speaker 1: here you see another good one. This one's half let's

1123
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 1: go one. No, that's cool. So they've got these channels

1124
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:18,360
Speaker 1: that come from the base, and these channels are really

1125
01:05:18,400 --> 01:05:22,440
Speaker 1: difficult to master. Um. It took me a long time

1126
01:05:22,520 --> 01:05:25,040
Speaker 1: to learn how to flake these channels off the base

1127
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:27,479
Speaker 1: because when you you hit the point from the base,

1128
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 1: it causes all sorts of bending and the point will break.

1129
01:05:30,840 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: And we know from studies of the archaeological record that

1130
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: when you flute these things they break one out of

1131
01:05:36,840 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 1: four times, one out of five times. Can you explain?

1132
01:05:39,560 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: So fluting? Are these channels, um, that you see at

1133
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: the at the base, and so they extend from that

1134
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 1: flat or concave base up and that is that concave

1135
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:50,880
Speaker 1: or convex. I can never get those things. Concave is

1136
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:53,959
Speaker 1: the one where it goes into the Yeah, you're holding

1137
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 1: the point and running along the length of the point.

1138
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 1: They got it all done, and then they thin the

1139
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: base by knocking a a channel, knocking your concave channel

1140
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,560
Speaker 1: channel up each side of the each side, so you're

1141
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:10,400
Speaker 1: risk breaking it twice. And that's where it's anchored on

1142
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 1: a shaft, right. Yeah, And So the big question is,

1143
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 1: you know, it takes years to learn how to make

1144
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: a clothes point, and even after you've mastered it, you

1145
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: risk breaking it one out of four, one out of

1146
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: five times. Why would close people, uh take those risks

1147
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: when you've got to feed your family and protect your

1148
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: your band from predators and all this sort of stuff.

1149
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: These are really important weapons for them. And actually, what

1150
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:39,240
Speaker 1: we we discovered was that fluting technology is not for

1151
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: better hafting it or attaching it to a spear shaft.

1152
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: It's the world's first shock absorber. Do you think so? Well?

1153
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:51,160
Speaker 1: We we showed so um, there's We've been following us

1154
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: a little bit. So what what we were able to

1155
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:57,240
Speaker 1: find when we teamed up with a bunch of engineers

1156
01:06:57,240 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: and computer scientists was that when you flute both sides

1157
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:05,240
Speaker 1: of a close point, the base becomes super thin and brittle,

1158
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 1: really thin and brittle. And I start to think to myself, man,

1159
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: it's so thin and brittle, like it would just crunch.

1160
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:14,880
Speaker 1: And then I was like, oh, man, maybe that crunching

1161
01:07:15,800 --> 01:07:18,160
Speaker 1: is actually the advantage they were going for. So when

1162
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 1: a car crashes into something, the front end crumple's protecting

1163
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 1: the people inside So when you've got a Clovis point

1164
01:07:25,160 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: and I've got one attached to a for shaft, here

1165
01:07:28,120 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: is going seven year eighty miles at prey right, You're

1166
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,760
Speaker 1: gonna get a lot of compression stress between that animal

1167
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:40,680
Speaker 1: and the eight foot spear shaft behind it. Now, oftentimes

1168
01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:42,800
Speaker 1: the point will snap in half. But if you've got

1169
01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,360
Speaker 1: that little shock absorber where it crumples a little bit

1170
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 1: and absorbs some of that impact stress um it actually

1171
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 1: will crunch at the base and not break the point

1172
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: in half. So if you're Clovis people and you're traveling

1173
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:59,080
Speaker 1: across the continent and exploring new lands that you've never

1174
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: been to before, it was left and you know, you

1175
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:04,680
Speaker 1: know you don't want to faster you eat them well,

1176
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: you don't want to spend a lot of time remaking

1177
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 1: your weapons all the time. So by integrating these little

1178
01:08:09,720 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: shock absorbers, they figured out a way to basically extend

1179
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: the life of the tool that kept them alive. But

1180
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:19,000
Speaker 1: speak about the hafting question, because that was long. It

1181
01:08:19,080 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: was like long held. Well you'd read where people would say, oh,

1182
01:08:24,120 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 1: it had a spiritual perhaps the spiritual significance, which means

1183
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: we don't know what it meant marchaeologist always say that

1184
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:32,680
Speaker 1: when they don't know what's going on. And then you

1185
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 1: had people talk about the hafting. But the hafting thing

1186
01:08:35,400 --> 01:08:38,280
Speaker 1: is kind of legit because imagine that I'm trying to

1187
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 1: explain as listeners that like take your middle finger and

1188
01:08:41,360 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 1: your index finger and like put them together right, so

1189
01:08:43,400 --> 01:08:46,800
Speaker 1: they're running parallel together, um, and then you slip that

1190
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 1: point between them, and then that in that little groove

1191
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: gives your fingers somewhere to rest, and then you lash

1192
01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: that down with string. I mean, it's plausible that that

1193
01:08:56,360 --> 01:08:59,960
Speaker 1: was Like, it's plausible right that that was helpful because

1194
01:09:00,080 --> 01:09:02,519
Speaker 1: if it was a rounded surface, your fingers wouldn't have

1195
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: anywhere to really grab. So that's one really interesting thing

1196
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 1: about the way archaeology has done today is that we

1197
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,480
Speaker 1: study it in basically a way that you just described

1198
01:09:11,760 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 1: in terms of evolution. And usually when evolutionary UH features

1199
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:20,719
Speaker 1: get adopted, it's because they've got multiple benefits. So shock

1200
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 1: absorption could be one of benefit, hafting could be an

1201
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:26,599
Speaker 1: additional benefit, um and so, and there could be other

1202
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 1: benefits the fluting that we have not yet discovered yet.

1203
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a lot of work to do. I

1204
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:33,320
Speaker 1: want to I want to get back to what we're on,

1205
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:34,719
Speaker 1: but I want to talk. I want to talk about

1206
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:38,240
Speaker 1: hafting for a second. If you think of your class

1207
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,559
Speaker 1: like think of a boy scout badge and it has

1208
01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: an Indian arrowhead on it, what do you call those

1209
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:50,720
Speaker 1: little lobes at the bottom, like? Yeah? Uh? Like your

1210
01:09:50,760 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 1: classic arrowhead shape where you have a how do you

1211
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:56,919
Speaker 1: describe that shape? Um? Sort of like a dovetail almost

1212
01:09:57,720 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 1: you have a little and there's grooves knocked out out

1213
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: we call those notches. Yeah. Do you does it seem

1214
01:10:04,479 --> 01:10:07,160
Speaker 1: as though that is helpful for hafting. It gives a

1215
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:09,320
Speaker 1: place for the string to bite. It does give a

1216
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 1: straight a place for the string to bite. Um. One

1217
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,719
Speaker 1: hypothesis that we're testing now though, is that the notches

1218
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 1: are not meant to keep the arrowhead or the projectile

1219
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,519
Speaker 1: point on the shaft. What it actually does is it

1220
01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:27,480
Speaker 1: prevents the point from being pushed into the shaft upon impact,

1221
01:10:27,960 --> 01:10:30,680
Speaker 1: which would break the shaft. And to be honest, even

1222
01:10:30,680 --> 01:10:32,360
Speaker 1: though it takes years to learn how to make any

1223
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:36,840
Speaker 1: sort of stone point um the shafts would probably be

1224
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:40,200
Speaker 1: a lot more valuable to ancient people because it takes

1225
01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:43,240
Speaker 1: so much more time and effort to get it straight,

1226
01:10:43,320 --> 01:10:46,640
Speaker 1: find the right wood, carve it out, whereas once you

1227
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:48,200
Speaker 1: know how to flint napp the close point, you can

1228
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 1: do it in twenty five or forty five minutes real quick. So,

1229
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:53,920
Speaker 1: and they would make them with different stuff, right, is

1230
01:10:53,960 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 1: there something made out of like camel bone? In mammoth

1231
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,240
Speaker 1: ivory we get four shafts and shafts made out of

1232
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 1: wood and all kinds of wood and bone and yeah, everything.

1233
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:06,759
Speaker 1: So it depends on where you are in the world.

1234
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,960
Speaker 1: So bam bamboo in some cases in East Asia, Do

1235
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,000
Speaker 1: they have any kind of like ancient adhesive that they

1236
01:11:14,040 --> 01:11:16,680
Speaker 1: would use on them? Yeah, so pine pitch is a

1237
01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,679
Speaker 1: really good one. Um, hide glue, they would make glue

1238
01:11:20,680 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 1: from hide. Um. Now in our labs, is this all

1239
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:28,840
Speaker 1: natural materials right here? No, In fact, it's mostly synthetic. Now.

1240
01:11:28,880 --> 01:11:32,080
Speaker 1: One reason why we try to uh not use animal

1241
01:11:32,160 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 1: products when we do experiments is because that the ethics

1242
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,880
Speaker 1: in terms of doing experiments with animal products can just

1243
01:11:39,880 --> 01:11:42,640
Speaker 1: get a little dicey with oh yeah, but how are

1244
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,840
Speaker 1: you supposed to do the work? So what we do

1245
01:11:45,040 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 1: we sometimes use animal products. I'm not saying we cut

1246
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:49,280
Speaker 1: them out entirely. But there are some experiments where we

1247
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,519
Speaker 1: don't need to use animal products, so we'll use like

1248
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 1: a wax twine or a plant based product. If that's

1249
01:11:56,000 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 1: not if that's not the part you're looking at, If

1250
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:01,320
Speaker 1: not the yeah, exactly. And then also to um, you know,

1251
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:04,519
Speaker 1: pine pitch can be really difficult to produce, and there

1252
01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 1: can be variability from one experiment to the next. And

1253
01:12:06,960 --> 01:12:09,360
Speaker 1: if we want consistency, we've got to use like a

1254
01:12:09,400 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 1: thermoplastic that allows us to control that variable when we're

1255
01:12:13,760 --> 01:12:16,160
Speaker 1: focused on some other variable. Yeah, but if you're studying

1256
01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:20,599
Speaker 1: adhesives and exactly right, that's fair. I'll give you that one.

1257
01:12:20,640 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: That's fair. So what all kind of weapons? Were these

1258
01:12:24,160 --> 01:12:28,719
Speaker 1: points used on? Spears? Bows? At laddle? So the at laddle? Um, now,

1259
01:12:28,880 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: let me just preface that by saying, we have never

1260
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:34,920
Speaker 1: found a clovis at laddle. Um, so are you into

1261
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: a ladle or at lattle? I say, at laddle? See, man, Okay,

1262
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,160
Speaker 1: what do you say that? And then I got corrected

1263
01:12:44,200 --> 01:12:48,160
Speaker 1: so damn much. I started saying, yeah, I think at ladle. Dude.

1264
01:12:48,160 --> 01:12:49,880
Speaker 1: I had a dude tell him. He's like, listen, man,

1265
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:55,800
Speaker 1: it's wrong. And I switched. I trusted them, I think,

1266
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:58,240
Speaker 1: and then he was like, let me tell you about

1267
01:12:58,240 --> 01:13:03,760
Speaker 1: this poop night. So, yeah, you never found a we've

1268
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:06,599
Speaker 1: never found clothes at laddle. So we assume that they

1269
01:13:06,720 --> 01:13:11,439
Speaker 1: used at laddles with their projectiles. Because these projectiles, you see,

1270
01:13:11,439 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 1: they're big. Um. If you try to put that on

1271
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:16,479
Speaker 1: an arrow, Um, it might mess up a lot of

1272
01:13:16,479 --> 01:13:18,799
Speaker 1: the ballistics. And it'd be hard to have that onto

1273
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 1: an arrow shaft. And you don't see evidence of bows

1274
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:25,400
Speaker 1: and arrows in this continent until like four or five

1275
01:13:25,760 --> 01:13:29,559
Speaker 1: years ago. Yeah, even later in some cases. Um. So

1276
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:32,000
Speaker 1: the other issue too is we don't know that they

1277
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:35,760
Speaker 1: were used with an at laddle. Could be hand like

1278
01:13:35,840 --> 01:13:41,080
Speaker 1: thrown spears or thrusting spears, handheld thrusting spears. Um. So

1279
01:13:41,120 --> 01:13:43,040
Speaker 1: it's just an assumption that they use the at laddle,

1280
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:46,640
Speaker 1: but they may not be projectiles at all. Uh. I

1281
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:48,439
Speaker 1: want to get a couple of things. We're gonna get

1282
01:13:48,439 --> 01:13:50,519
Speaker 1: back to this whole mystery whether they killed man. But

1283
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 1: I wanna I want to just explain, folks when I'm

1284
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:56,640
Speaker 1: holding so we have to correct me where I go

1285
01:13:56,680 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: wrong here the very tip the tip of the spears

1286
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:03,280
Speaker 1: to speak, we have the stone clobus point and the

1287
01:14:03,320 --> 01:14:06,559
Speaker 1: specimen is made out of that is actually an English shirt. Okay,

1288
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:10,280
Speaker 1: So it's made out of churt um and it's hafted

1289
01:14:10,320 --> 01:14:16,800
Speaker 1: to with string. It's lashed to a fifteen inch Yeah,

1290
01:14:16,840 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 1: that's ash ash four shaft for shaft. So it's like

1291
01:14:21,640 --> 01:14:25,040
Speaker 1: the at the thickest parts about the thickness of sharpie

1292
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:30,839
Speaker 1: and comes to a point um reminiscent of like a drumstick. Yeah,

1293
01:14:30,880 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: that's a good description. And then you didn't just fling

1294
01:14:34,360 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 1: this at something. It's like another part. So there's a

1295
01:14:37,280 --> 01:14:39,479
Speaker 1: what's the next part? Do you have one here? I

1296
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,880
Speaker 1: couldn't fit the seven foot dart into my suitcase, so

1297
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:48,320
Speaker 1: this sockets into a handle or what do you call

1298
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:50,320
Speaker 1: that point? We call the We call it a dart,

1299
01:14:50,520 --> 01:14:52,840
Speaker 1: and so it would be like a seven foot very

1300
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 1: thin and flexible spear um and so, and in that way,

1301
01:14:58,000 --> 01:15:00,960
Speaker 1: what happens is you throw being higher sort of dart

1302
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:04,760
Speaker 1: and foreshaft at the animal. The foresheft sticks, the dart

1303
01:15:04,800 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 1: falls out, and then you can retrieve your dart and

1304
01:15:07,360 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 1: put in another force. So this would just sock it

1305
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:13,040
Speaker 1: into that like just held by friction, yes, into you

1306
01:15:13,080 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: know we're in South America. They still use socceted shooting

1307
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,920
Speaker 1: out of arrows. They still use socketed points that fall away.

1308
01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: That's amazing. And then they would tie for their bird points.

1309
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 1: They would leave a tied connection wrapped around because they

1310
01:15:31,240 --> 01:15:34,240
Speaker 1: want the arrow to fall away. And then it's the

1311
01:15:34,280 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 1: bird tries to fly away and he gets hung up

1312
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:38,200
Speaker 1: in the bushes because he's dragging the shaft around on

1313
01:15:38,240 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 1: the end of a chunk of string. Yeah, that that's

1314
01:15:40,240 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 1: almost reminiscent. I read an ethnographic account of they tie

1315
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: like skin balloons when they're doing whale hunting. Um, so

1316
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:52,759
Speaker 1: that when the projectile hits, you know, the underwater creature

1317
01:15:52,760 --> 01:15:56,080
Speaker 1: that you're going after, you can follow it with that balloon. Um.

1318
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 1: So it's not being dragged, but and it absorbs a

1319
01:15:58,200 --> 01:15:59,960
Speaker 1: little bit. It's like a little bit of chakrams orbs

1320
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 1: pulls on it. And then that would be if the

1321
01:16:03,040 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 1: add a laddle thing. Explain what that is. I'm holding

1322
01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 1: it right now, but explain what the hard we're talking about.

1323
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:11,559
Speaker 1: We saying is basically a stick with a little nub

1324
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: at the end of it, and that little nub very

1325
01:16:14,320 --> 01:16:16,040
Speaker 1: similar when you're playing fetched your dog and you got

1326
01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:19,639
Speaker 1: one of those tennis ball hookers. Yeah, like a tennis

1327
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 1: ball hooker with a little turkey spur sticking all the

1328
01:16:21,800 --> 01:16:25,679
Speaker 1: end of it. That's what it is. Sticks are the same, right. Um,

1329
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:28,680
Speaker 1: it's a basically increases the leverage of your arm. It's

1330
01:16:28,720 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 1: a lever um. And when you've got just a stick

1331
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:35,080
Speaker 1: with a little nub, you put your spear sort of

1332
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 1: right inserted into that nub, you can launch a dart,

1333
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:41,519
Speaker 1: you know, seventy miles an hour. Are you pretty good

1334
01:16:41,520 --> 01:16:45,640
Speaker 1: with one? No? I suck? What's the best person? Okay,

1335
01:16:46,080 --> 01:16:48,200
Speaker 1: the best person you've seen with one? How good are

1336
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:50,719
Speaker 1: they at? Just give me like some distance and group size.

1337
01:16:50,920 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 1: So well, there's a couple of ways to use in

1338
01:16:53,560 --> 01:16:57,240
Speaker 1: that attle, so you can do it for accuracy. And

1339
01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,680
Speaker 1: you know, I've seen and heard cases where people can

1340
01:16:59,720 --> 01:17:02,759
Speaker 1: hit a antelope from you know, thirty or forty yards,

1341
01:17:03,200 --> 01:17:05,640
Speaker 1: So that's pretty good. Um. The other thing though, that

1342
01:17:05,720 --> 01:17:07,920
Speaker 1: you can do with a dart in that laddle is

1343
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: if there's a large herd a hundred fifty two d away,

1344
01:17:12,040 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 1: you can just launch your dart into the herd and

1345
01:17:15,040 --> 01:17:18,160
Speaker 1: it will go that two hundred meters. Um, you can

1346
01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:23,760
Speaker 1: hawk on that far? Really, yeah, have done how far

1347
01:17:23,800 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 1: can you hawk one? Probably hundred or so. But people

1348
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:29,719
Speaker 1: that are but just hail married it out there into

1349
01:17:29,720 --> 01:17:31,680
Speaker 1: a group of stuff just to see what happened. Yeah,

1350
01:17:31,760 --> 01:17:34,840
Speaker 1: definitely like that never cry Wolf movie. There's probably ever

1351
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:37,800
Speaker 1: he takes his he takes a jackknife, ties into the

1352
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:39,439
Speaker 1: end of a stick, hawks it into a herd carab

1353
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:41,720
Speaker 1: he walks owners one laying there dead. Never not never

1354
01:17:41,720 --> 01:17:48,680
Speaker 1: cry Wolf great movie. Is there different size um like

1355
01:17:48,880 --> 01:17:51,360
Speaker 1: projectiles and stuff that you throw out of at little

1356
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:54,600
Speaker 1: because obviously one you could throw farther than another, or

1357
01:17:54,640 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: are they all pretty similar? So you can throw any

1358
01:17:57,600 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: size stone projectile within that laddle, So it can be

1359
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,880
Speaker 1: a really teeny tiny arrowhead or a really large Clovis point,

1360
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:07,400
Speaker 1: because what happens is that the dart is so much

1361
01:18:07,400 --> 01:18:09,559
Speaker 1: more massive than the point that it sort of balances

1362
01:18:09,560 --> 01:18:12,760
Speaker 1: out where you can't sort of go is take a

1363
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:14,880
Speaker 1: really large point and put it on a very thin

1364
01:18:15,080 --> 01:18:17,920
Speaker 1: arrow shaft, So there you need to have small arrow

1365
01:18:17,920 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 1: points um midas stone yep um. So go back to

1366
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:28,320
Speaker 1: the different styles of like the different possible styles of

1367
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:32,640
Speaker 1: hunting with one of these things. So there's like accuracy.

1368
01:18:32,920 --> 01:18:36,360
Speaker 1: You can go for you know, thirty forty yards try

1369
01:18:36,439 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 1: to get a lung shot or hard shot and people

1370
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:41,400
Speaker 1: can do it. Um. Actually, if you type in at

1371
01:18:41,439 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 1: laddle hunting on the YouTube, there's lots of videos of

1372
01:18:44,040 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 1: people doing it. Um. But you can let me, let

1373
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:48,599
Speaker 1: me throw one at you. That's kind of what I mean.

1374
01:18:49,040 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 1: Let's say it's big gass man with standing there no, no,

1375
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:56,000
Speaker 1: no bear with me. Yeah, okay, like they're not accustomed

1376
01:18:56,000 --> 01:18:58,920
Speaker 1: to people. Let's just let's just go down the fantasy

1377
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:02,080
Speaker 1: thing here. You're early people on a new continent. You're

1378
01:19:02,120 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 1: dealing with animals, have no idea what the hell you are. Uh.

1379
01:19:06,040 --> 01:19:07,599
Speaker 1: They're just like, I don't know, what's this little annoying

1380
01:19:07,640 --> 01:19:10,160
Speaker 1: thing walking up to me? And you get up five

1381
01:19:10,200 --> 01:19:14,200
Speaker 1: yards away and you're like, right, you're not really relying

1382
01:19:14,240 --> 01:19:16,960
Speaker 1: on accuracy. It's not a hail mary. You're just like,

1383
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:21,080
Speaker 1: can I bury this thing in there enough to kill it? Yeah?

1384
01:19:21,120 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you guys have messed around with that,

1385
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:25,599
Speaker 1: like can you drive the point? Like nothing to do

1386
01:19:25,640 --> 01:19:27,639
Speaker 1: with it being far away, nothing to do with being

1387
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:29,599
Speaker 1: really good at it, but just can you take it

1388
01:19:29,680 --> 01:19:33,599
Speaker 1: and flap? Like? Could I take it? Right through Phil

1389
01:19:34,439 --> 01:19:37,599
Speaker 1: Oh through Phil Oh Yeah, definitely, Yeah, that's no problem.

1390
01:19:37,600 --> 01:19:40,640
Speaker 1: I pin him right to his chair. Yeah. Um. But

1391
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:43,320
Speaker 1: when it comes to a mammoth uh the answers no,

1392
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:47,880
Speaker 1: just flat out yea, just Helmett know that I'm going

1393
01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:49,599
Speaker 1: to pin him to his chair, or know that I'm

1394
01:19:49,600 --> 01:19:50,960
Speaker 1: going to get it in there enough to do something

1395
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:53,879
Speaker 1: to him, You wouldn't be able to do anything to him, probably, Yeah,

1396
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,679
Speaker 1: And I can explain why, all right. I don't buy

1397
01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:03,720
Speaker 1: it for one second. Have heard the explanation even, all right,

1398
01:20:03,800 --> 01:20:08,120
Speaker 1: tell me why? All right? So ah, we did ballistics

1399
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 1: experiments in our lab at Kent State where instead of

1400
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,320
Speaker 1: hucking it in a mammoth because we couldn't because well,

1401
01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:20,439
Speaker 1: yeah it's hard to find mammoths, right, you got to

1402
01:20:20,479 --> 01:20:25,320
Speaker 1: grow them. Yeah, they're trying, they're trying. It will be

1403
01:20:25,360 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 1: helpful with you guys. Yeah, you should order the first couple. Well,

1404
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:32,960
Speaker 1: I do have a proposal for you when we're done

1405
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:37,360
Speaker 1: talking about mammoth um. But so, what we've been doing

1406
01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:39,639
Speaker 1: in our ballistics lab is we end up shooting into

1407
01:20:39,640 --> 01:20:42,960
Speaker 1: blocks of clay, and we've done lots of engineering experiments

1408
01:20:43,000 --> 01:20:47,520
Speaker 1: looking at the how clay compares to to meet and flesh.

1409
01:20:47,600 --> 01:20:49,880
Speaker 1: And it's not just us. There's been knife makers and

1410
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: all sorts of other people who have looked to see

1411
01:20:52,080 --> 01:20:54,760
Speaker 1: how does clay compare? What's that other ship? They used

1412
01:20:54,760 --> 01:20:58,400
Speaker 1: the ballistic gel, ballistics gel. We've also done experiments of that.

1413
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:02,960
Speaker 1: It's terrible ballistics. Gail. What about what they always do

1414
01:21:03,000 --> 01:21:05,719
Speaker 1: on like TV shows, like when they're testing out swords

1415
01:21:05,760 --> 01:21:11,640
Speaker 1: and ship like using using pigs. Um, Yeah, so, I

1416
01:21:11,680 --> 01:21:15,400
Speaker 1: mean you can use carcasses. Uh. The issue though then

1417
01:21:15,680 --> 01:21:19,800
Speaker 1: is how does that sort of compare? Yeah? Um, so

1418
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:23,519
Speaker 1: we were shooting into blocks of clay. Now, these blocks

1419
01:21:23,520 --> 01:21:27,960
Speaker 1: of clay, while they compare to MEET, when they are

1420
01:21:28,040 --> 01:21:32,400
Speaker 1: different than meet, they're less resistant, so less resistant. They

1421
01:21:32,439 --> 01:21:34,680
Speaker 1: also don't understand what that means. So that means if

1422
01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:40,120
Speaker 1: you were to fire into meat into clay, the projectile

1423
01:21:40,120 --> 01:21:43,240
Speaker 1: going into clay usually would be similar to meet in

1424
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,439
Speaker 1: terms of penetration depth, but on occasion it would be

1425
01:21:46,520 --> 01:21:50,040
Speaker 1: less so or no, no, it would be more I'm sorry,

1426
01:21:50,479 --> 01:21:53,040
Speaker 1: on occasion will penetrate clay better than it will penetrate

1427
01:21:53,040 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 1: clay better than meat. All right, so we're firing into

1428
01:21:56,240 --> 01:22:00,880
Speaker 1: a less resistant substrate, but are giving it the benefits

1429
01:22:01,000 --> 01:22:03,000
Speaker 1: we're giving it the benefit of the doubt. And also

1430
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:05,920
Speaker 1: our clay, even though it compares to meat, doesn't have

1431
01:22:05,960 --> 01:22:08,960
Speaker 1: hair and it doesn't have hide. And so when you

1432
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:12,599
Speaker 1: look at mammoths, mammoths can have ten to twelve centimeters

1433
01:22:12,640 --> 01:22:16,160
Speaker 1: of hair that would slow down your projectile, and their

1434
01:22:16,240 --> 01:22:21,559
Speaker 1: hides can be you know, two or three centimeters thick um.

1435
01:22:21,640 --> 01:22:24,840
Speaker 1: So that's on top of any meat that you'd have

1436
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:28,639
Speaker 1: to get through, right, and we're firing with our spot

1437
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:31,719
Speaker 1: hog hooter shooter from a meter away into these blocks

1438
01:22:31,720 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 1: of clay, so kind of like what you described, just

1439
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 1: going up and hawking it into the animal. There's no wind,

1440
01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:40,040
Speaker 1: there's no rain um that could sort of cause the

1441
01:22:40,040 --> 01:22:42,559
Speaker 1: projectile to skew and hit it at an angle, which

1442
01:22:42,560 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 1: would reduce penetration. More so, we're given these Clovis points

1443
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 1: that we're firing into the clay the best possible chance

1444
01:22:49,720 --> 01:22:54,400
Speaker 1: to penetrate as deep as they can. On average, Clovis

1445
01:22:54,479 --> 01:23:00,280
Speaker 1: points penetrate the clay blocks eighteen centimeters, so that much

1446
01:23:01,080 --> 01:23:04,200
Speaker 1: that is that is not deep at all. And when

1447
01:23:04,200 --> 01:23:09,559
Speaker 1: we compare what eighteen centimeters is not only to mammoths

1448
01:23:09,600 --> 01:23:13,720
Speaker 1: but to modern elephants, you are not reaching lungs, you're

1449
01:23:13,760 --> 01:23:16,120
Speaker 1: not reaching the heart, you're not reaching the liver. And

1450
01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:20,040
Speaker 1: this also assumes that you're making it between that cage

1451
01:23:20,240 --> 01:23:25,600
Speaker 1: of ribs, which for mammoths is just like a fortress. Um.

1452
01:23:25,640 --> 01:23:29,160
Speaker 1: So are you familiar with the claim that at the

1453
01:23:29,200 --> 01:23:32,559
Speaker 1: Black Water draw site they found a mammoth skull with

1454
01:23:32,600 --> 01:23:36,000
Speaker 1: a Clovis point in its eye socket? I am not

1455
01:23:36,040 --> 01:23:38,519
Speaker 1: aware of that. Time. People think it's like someone put

1456
01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:40,840
Speaker 1: it there because I thought would be funny. What some

1457
01:23:40,880 --> 01:23:46,400
Speaker 1: people think it's legit? Is it funny? Well, not funny.

1458
01:23:46,439 --> 01:23:49,200
Speaker 1: I mean that that that that there was like, okay,

1459
01:23:49,280 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: let me put it a different way. Some people think

1460
01:23:51,400 --> 01:23:54,559
Speaker 1: that I guess there's some people that were made that claim,

1461
01:23:55,080 --> 01:23:57,719
Speaker 1: and other people pointed out that there's probably some human,

1462
01:23:57,840 --> 01:24:02,839
Speaker 1: some modern human manipulation of the stuff where some huckster.

1463
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,960
Speaker 1: Right there are hucksters and it was like coming to

1464
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:09,760
Speaker 1: my special my you know what I mean, And you like,

1465
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:12,280
Speaker 1: wouldn't be cool if you know I stuck it in

1466
01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:16,200
Speaker 1: there and showed tourists or it was like legitimately in there,

1467
01:24:16,800 --> 01:24:19,600
Speaker 1: and I think I think it was. It was described

1468
01:24:19,640 --> 01:24:23,639
Speaker 1: as being like evidence of and then later was widely

1469
01:24:23,680 --> 01:24:26,040
Speaker 1: discredited as being no one knows how that thing got

1470
01:24:26,120 --> 01:24:29,680
Speaker 1: net head, but there's no like, no one was ever

1471
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:31,559
Speaker 1: able to analyze it. It might just be like a

1472
01:24:31,600 --> 01:24:34,679
Speaker 1: guy was screwing around. I'm not familiar with that claim,

1473
01:24:35,000 --> 01:24:36,960
Speaker 1: but which makes me think it's probably not true. Yeah,

1474
01:24:37,000 --> 01:24:41,160
Speaker 1: it's probably not true. That's all right. But uh so,

1475
01:24:41,320 --> 01:24:43,240
Speaker 1: you know, when it comes to the fact that we

1476
01:24:43,360 --> 01:24:47,800
Speaker 1: also know that Clovis points from analysis called microware, which

1477
01:24:47,840 --> 01:24:50,240
Speaker 1: is where you can take a scanning electron microscope and

1478
01:24:50,240 --> 01:24:52,679
Speaker 1: we look at the polishes and striations that are left

1479
01:24:52,720 --> 01:24:55,639
Speaker 1: on the artifacts themselves to see how they were used.

1480
01:24:55,680 --> 01:24:58,599
Speaker 1: We know Clovis points were used as knives, so they

1481
01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 1: weren't just projectile weapons. They were multi use tools for

1482
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:05,920
Speaker 1: processing animals as well. So when we find closed points

1483
01:25:05,920 --> 01:25:09,200
Speaker 1: in association with mammoth skeletons, and that's very rare, it's

1484
01:25:09,200 --> 01:25:12,479
Speaker 1: only been done, you know, fourteen times in the history

1485
01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 1: of archaeology. Can you walk me through a couple of

1486
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:19,240
Speaker 1: the notable ones, Yeah, like, what like what was the relationship? Right? Yeah,

1487
01:25:19,320 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 1: so we'll find, Um, there's eight Clovis points found in

1488
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: the Naco mammoth um down in the southwest. Um, there's

1489
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:30,280
Speaker 1: only three Clovis points kind of around the area of

1490
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:34,640
Speaker 1: the Colby mammoth in Wyoming. Um, let's see some of

1491
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:38,320
Speaker 1: the other ones and neither not like the fulsome point

1492
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:40,920
Speaker 1: laying in the ribs like thes like just in association,

1493
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 1: in association with but not like wedged into something. And

1494
01:25:44,040 --> 01:25:47,400
Speaker 1: we've never found a Clovis point tip in the bone

1495
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:52,400
Speaker 1: of a mammoth, whereas we found fulsome uh points embedded

1496
01:25:52,400 --> 01:25:55,759
Speaker 1: in bison bone before and all other types of stuff.

1497
01:25:55,760 --> 01:25:58,679
Speaker 1: So no, just to just to make sure everybody's clear,

1498
01:25:59,600 --> 01:26:02,920
Speaker 1: no one has ever recovered a mammoth bone they had

1499
01:26:02,960 --> 01:26:06,439
Speaker 1: like healed around or had like when it was fresh

1500
01:26:06,479 --> 01:26:12,040
Speaker 1: bone been impaled by struck by embedded in That is correct,

1501
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:15,760
Speaker 1: never never. So these Clovis points that we find in

1502
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:21,679
Speaker 1: association with mammoths, ah, could very plausibly be just people

1503
01:26:21,760 --> 01:26:26,400
Speaker 1: scavenging already dead ones. Have you found humans with Clovis

1504
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:30,559
Speaker 1: points in the bones? No, because, um, we only have

1505
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: one Clovis burial that's ever been found and it's right

1506
01:26:35,200 --> 01:26:39,400
Speaker 1: near here. Yeah, and zick One, that's right. I mean,

1507
01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:43,600
Speaker 1: like I forgot I was in Montana. You could you

1508
01:26:43,600 --> 01:26:45,920
Speaker 1: could be at the anzick One site and uh it's

1509
01:26:45,920 --> 01:26:47,400
Speaker 1: a great name for a boy. I think it sounds

1510
01:26:47,400 --> 01:26:51,120
Speaker 1: like a Steven Spielberg movie and Zick one. But he

1511
01:26:51,160 --> 01:26:55,240
Speaker 1: was a little boy buried uh over by Wilson with

1512
01:26:55,320 --> 01:26:59,280
Speaker 1: a bunch of Clovis points. Yeah, you just picture our

1513
01:26:59,360 --> 01:27:03,680
Speaker 1: CUTEI looked all wrapped up in those mammothides that his

1514
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:11,719
Speaker 1: daddy killed. Right. Can we talk about the blitz Creek

1515
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:15,640
Speaker 1: hypothesis real quick? Yeah? Right? And like so where that

1516
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:22,040
Speaker 1: name comes from? Right, It's like attacking very very fast, uh,

1517
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:26,760
Speaker 1: overwhelming larger odds by moving really fast, faster than your

1518
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 1: opponents are gonna roll the whole place up in a

1519
01:27:28,600 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 1: thousand years? Um, how did people get to a new continent, Stephen?

1520
01:27:36,200 --> 01:27:40,120
Speaker 1: Did they get there really really fast? Did they get

1521
01:27:40,160 --> 01:27:44,240
Speaker 1: to new places really fast? In the book Sapiens, he

1522
01:27:44,360 --> 01:27:50,120
Speaker 1: talks about if I also want to say, I'm gonna

1523
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 1: over here real quick? Well, no, okay, go ahead, and

1524
01:27:53,040 --> 01:27:56,639
Speaker 1: I'm gonna jump example from Sapiens, I think he says

1525
01:27:56,640 --> 01:28:01,240
Speaker 1: in Sapiens, the Oregon company spot Hog makes you know, like, uh,

1526
01:28:01,600 --> 01:28:05,679
Speaker 1: fancy tough archery sites is there is there big deal?

1527
01:28:06,040 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 1: But they came out with that hooter shooter forever ago

1528
01:28:09,439 --> 01:28:12,679
Speaker 1: and it's it's a highly technical piece of equipment designed

1529
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:20,360
Speaker 1: around um doing what every archery hunter, probably for thousands

1530
01:28:20,400 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 1: of years has always wanted to do, which is know

1531
01:28:23,000 --> 01:28:27,520
Speaker 1: that the bow is screwing up and it's not you, right, um.

1532
01:28:27,680 --> 01:28:30,800
Speaker 1: And I've known those folks at spot Hog for a

1533
01:28:30,800 --> 01:28:36,200
Speaker 1: really long time. Everybody's super nice, great people. But had

1534
01:28:36,240 --> 01:28:38,280
Speaker 1: they lead with the fact they had a hooter shooter

1535
01:28:38,320 --> 01:28:42,200
Speaker 1: at can't State and projectile ab, it would have been, Yeah,

1536
01:28:43,320 --> 01:28:46,160
Speaker 1: I'd be lead with that. For this selling stuff is cool,

1537
01:28:46,200 --> 01:28:51,280
Speaker 1: but that's way cool. I want to first hardly recommend

1538
01:28:52,000 --> 01:28:54,960
Speaker 1: the book Sapiens. It's got some sloppy mistakes in it,

1539
01:28:55,360 --> 01:29:01,040
Speaker 1: like what, um, they misspelled sapiens like a no, no,

1540
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:04,200
Speaker 1: Just like he'll like make some examples like, for instance,

1541
01:29:04,240 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: if a if a blank animal were to like do

1542
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:09,840
Speaker 1: this to a blank animal and be like animals that

1543
01:29:09,880 --> 01:29:11,760
Speaker 1: don't coexist on the same continent, just like kind of

1544
01:29:11,920 --> 01:29:15,760
Speaker 1: like a little lazy comparisons that they're annoying if you

1545
01:29:15,880 --> 01:29:17,960
Speaker 1: catch them. But I mean it's you know, it's a

1546
01:29:18,080 --> 01:29:22,640
Speaker 1: highly regarded book. He gets into like the human diaspora

1547
01:29:23,200 --> 01:29:26,760
Speaker 1: out of Africa seventy years ago and for a long

1548
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:28,439
Speaker 1: time he talks about, which is kind of cool, Like

1549
01:29:28,479 --> 01:29:30,680
Speaker 1: if you go to an area and you'd be like, oh,

1550
01:29:30,720 --> 01:29:33,360
Speaker 1: there's some mule deer. Oh there's some white tailed deer

1551
01:29:33,880 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 1: that UM at various times around the world, you have

1552
01:29:37,080 --> 01:29:40,960
Speaker 1: different humans coexisting to be like, oh there's one kind

1553
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:42,599
Speaker 1: of them. Oh, there's not a kind of them. They

1554
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 1: seem really similar with they're kind of a little bit different, right, UM.

1555
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:50,120
Speaker 1: But he focuses in on Homo sapiens and he says,

1556
01:29:50,200 --> 01:29:56,160
Speaker 1: if a forager band split once every forty years. Uh.

1557
01:29:56,200 --> 01:29:59,719
Speaker 1: Prior to this, he gets into like what probably hunter

1558
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:02,640
Speaker 1: other bands? How big as a hunter gatherer band, Like,

1559
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:05,880
Speaker 1: just based on various pieces of evidence, is like like

1560
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:08,240
Speaker 1: roughly how many people lived in these hunter gatherer bands

1561
01:30:08,240 --> 01:30:11,800
Speaker 1: that roamed around and then how did they like, what

1562
01:30:11,800 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 1: were their group interactions and group dynamics and it's all

1563
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:16,719
Speaker 1: a huge question mark. But he just kind of offers

1564
01:30:16,720 --> 01:30:20,040
Speaker 1: some like perspectives on how to understand this. UM there's

1565
01:30:20,080 --> 01:30:22,160
Speaker 1: kind of this funny thing that happens to uh, and

1566
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:26,320
Speaker 1: he looks at all these examples from from UM human societies.

1567
01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:29,960
Speaker 1: A hundred people becomes a very different if you imagine

1568
01:30:29,960 --> 01:30:33,160
Speaker 1: a group of people as like an organism, say, uh,

1569
01:30:33,200 --> 01:30:35,840
Speaker 1: the organism changes dramatically at a hundred people, and he

1570
01:30:35,880 --> 01:30:38,000
Speaker 1: gets into a lot of stuff even at like organizations,

1571
01:30:38,520 --> 01:30:42,040
Speaker 1: professional organizations, um military units, all these kinds of examples,

1572
01:30:42,080 --> 01:30:46,400
Speaker 1: Like like sub one d people, every individual is able

1573
01:30:46,439 --> 01:30:50,600
Speaker 1: to know. Like at sub one d people, every individual

1574
01:30:50,680 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 1: is able to know pretty much the history of everyone else.

1575
01:30:53,479 --> 01:30:55,240
Speaker 1: You can know their name, You'll be able to put

1576
01:30:55,280 --> 01:30:58,719
Speaker 1: together their family tree, you like remember grievances and gripes.

1577
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:00,600
Speaker 1: You get over a hundred peop when you start to

1578
01:31:00,680 --> 01:31:03,280
Speaker 1: enter into sort of like a different territory, And it

1579
01:31:03,360 --> 01:31:05,439
Speaker 1: seems that a lot of these early groups he like,

1580
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:09,120
Speaker 1: he has this spirited argument that probably around a hundred

1581
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:12,280
Speaker 1: people or less, probably not more would survive as these

1582
01:31:12,680 --> 01:31:16,040
Speaker 1: roaming bands of hunter gatherers that just stayed on the

1583
01:31:16,040 --> 01:31:19,599
Speaker 1: move all the time, Which leads to this quote which

1584
01:31:19,600 --> 01:31:24,120
Speaker 1: I highlighted. If a forager band split once every forty years,

1585
01:31:24,920 --> 01:31:29,400
Speaker 1: and it's splinter group migrated to a new territory sixty

1586
01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:34,160
Speaker 1: miles to the east, the distance from East Africa to

1587
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:38,040
Speaker 1: China would have been covered in about ten thousand years.

1588
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:44,360
Speaker 1: So that's slow, but it's like it depends on your perspective.

1589
01:31:46,600 --> 01:31:50,360
Speaker 1: It's it's like it's slow but fast, I mean East

1590
01:31:50,400 --> 01:31:53,640
Speaker 1: Africa to China, just as like people filling up the

1591
01:31:53,720 --> 01:31:57,439
Speaker 1: landscape without a thought, without being propelled by the idea

1592
01:31:57,439 --> 01:32:01,960
Speaker 1: that you're supposed to fill up the landscape. Uh. I mean,

1593
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:04,240
Speaker 1: obviously you're familiar with this, which is why I asked

1594
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:06,640
Speaker 1: the question. Right. It's like, in order for there to

1595
01:32:06,680 --> 01:32:11,800
Speaker 1: be new there, there brings to mind like this this

1596
01:32:12,360 --> 01:32:15,680
Speaker 1: picture of like I fell out of a balloon and

1597
01:32:15,800 --> 01:32:18,599
Speaker 1: landed in this landscape where nothing had seen me before,

1598
01:32:18,960 --> 01:32:25,760
Speaker 1: my kind before. Whereas that sixty miles um certainly around here,

1599
01:32:27,120 --> 01:32:28,920
Speaker 1: you know, we have a bunch of snow on the

1600
01:32:28,960 --> 01:32:35,040
Speaker 1: ground right here. You move sixty miles in three different directions,

1601
01:32:35,040 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 1: you're gonna be there's some stuff that looks green around

1602
01:32:38,240 --> 01:32:40,920
Speaker 1: here already. Uh. And it's snow free, right. You can

1603
01:32:41,280 --> 01:32:45,840
Speaker 1: really change your landscape and and what's around and abundant there.

1604
01:32:45,920 --> 01:32:48,759
Speaker 1: But we know that all these animals have these big,

1605
01:32:48,880 --> 01:32:52,840
Speaker 1: overlapping territories that migration roots. They do a lot of

1606
01:32:52,880 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 1: moving to. So this idea of there being like a

1607
01:32:56,400 --> 01:33:00,479
Speaker 1: new encounter constantly unannounced, this sort of a constantly announced

1608
01:33:00,560 --> 01:33:05,400
Speaker 1: present surprise. We're humans, right, is very hard for me,

1609
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:08,400
Speaker 1: Like the knowledge of humans may well have just travels

1610
01:33:08,400 --> 01:33:12,360
Speaker 1: sort of at the outer edge of humans, right right,

1611
01:33:12,479 --> 01:33:14,800
Speaker 1: And then I think, like the hunted animals are like

1612
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:18,800
Speaker 1: a man, those slow bipedal things, or they we move

1613
01:33:18,840 --> 01:33:22,160
Speaker 1: a little bit. A few days later they that's a

1614
01:33:22,160 --> 01:33:23,920
Speaker 1: great point, man, that it wasn't like some dude. It

1615
01:33:24,000 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 1: is like I'm gonna sneak over a thousand miles past

1616
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:33,479
Speaker 1: where anybody's ever been and get past any awareness of

1617
01:33:33,520 --> 01:33:37,559
Speaker 1: who I am. It's just it's hard. But you read

1618
01:33:37,600 --> 01:33:40,800
Speaker 1: it and you're like and then you're like, wait, do

1619
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:42,960
Speaker 1: you think you can publish that in the paper called

1620
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:47,240
Speaker 1: the Callahan principle? Yeah, well it's I think what you're

1621
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:49,719
Speaker 1: getting at right with litz Creek is it assumes animals

1622
01:33:49,720 --> 01:33:53,639
Speaker 1: are also real dumb, and that animals don't learn. And

1623
01:33:53,760 --> 01:33:55,640
Speaker 1: you know, you might get away with walking up to

1624
01:33:55,880 --> 01:34:00,240
Speaker 1: a species that's never seen you before once, but his

1625
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:03,439
Speaker 1: buddies are watching and they're gonna see what you did, um,

1626
01:34:03,479 --> 01:34:06,439
Speaker 1: and they're gonna learn. And so this idea that just

1627
01:34:06,479 --> 01:34:08,840
Speaker 1: because we were new, we could just walk up and

1628
01:34:08,920 --> 01:34:11,360
Speaker 1: sort of club animals on the head and take them out.

1629
01:34:11,400 --> 01:34:13,840
Speaker 1: Blitz Creek style doesn't make any sense or even the

1630
01:34:13,960 --> 01:34:16,599
Speaker 1: at laddle when you you compare it to like close

1631
01:34:16,680 --> 01:34:21,479
Speaker 1: range hunting tactics that we have now, right, um, especially

1632
01:34:21,479 --> 01:34:26,240
Speaker 1: to huck something two. That's a big body movement, right,

1633
01:34:26,280 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 1: I imagine there's a couple of big steps in there.

1634
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:33,080
Speaker 1: You're really arc in your arm. You're a happy Gilmore style,

1635
01:34:33,280 --> 01:34:38,479
Speaker 1: yeah Gilmore a stylary right, versus like you're not, um,

1636
01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:44,320
Speaker 1: crouched down semi sneak, drawing your bow back, locking it in.

1637
01:34:45,320 --> 01:34:47,760
Speaker 1: You know, there's just like some some big movements, it's

1638
01:34:47,760 --> 01:34:52,840
Speaker 1: a it's a more probably less uh a little more

1639
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:58,760
Speaker 1: brutal versus uh. You know. Another thing I read, it's

1640
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 1: like another ant ye Blitz Creek hypothesis. Thing I've read

1641
01:35:03,320 --> 01:35:07,040
Speaker 1: is that, um, there's no remains of I don't think

1642
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:10,759
Speaker 1: there's even a butcher site of like a giant ground slot.

1643
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:13,600
Speaker 1: Every time you're reading about the place has seen extinctions,

1644
01:35:13,600 --> 01:35:15,400
Speaker 1: they always love to talk about the giant ground slot

1645
01:35:15,400 --> 01:35:18,200
Speaker 1: because what a crazy aest animal, right, how are they

1646
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:21,640
Speaker 1: like oh four ft taller? You know, people love to

1647
01:35:21,680 --> 01:35:24,320
Speaker 1: bring up like mammoths and right, It's like when a

1648
01:35:24,360 --> 01:35:26,880
Speaker 1: when a writer, when some journalists is going to do

1649
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:29,439
Speaker 1: a list of animals, and they know they're gonna start

1650
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:32,200
Speaker 1: with mammoth. The second one is probably the giant ground

1651
01:35:32,200 --> 01:35:37,360
Speaker 1: slot nine ft long, five pounds. Yeah, like, man, I'm

1652
01:35:37,360 --> 01:35:42,280
Speaker 1: a stand uh giant ground sloss. Every journalist does it.

1653
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:47,439
Speaker 1: I was reading that there's no butcher site, not only

1654
01:35:47,520 --> 01:35:51,840
Speaker 1: no like, not only no bone stone tools stuck in

1655
01:35:51,880 --> 01:35:54,880
Speaker 1: his bone, not even a butcher site from a giant

1656
01:35:54,920 --> 01:35:57,599
Speaker 1: ground SLOs. So the only animals that we've got clovis

1657
01:35:57,680 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 1: artifacts in association with our mammos masodon one camel, one camel,

1658
01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:12,960
Speaker 1: one camel, one horse, and I believe that's it. But

1659
01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:17,880
Speaker 1: we have human bones associated with with more animals. But

1660
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:20,519
Speaker 1: it could be like overlaps for like burial sites, right,

1661
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:23,439
Speaker 1: because I know that we have like some cave bears

1662
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:28,960
Speaker 1: and some human skulls in close proximity. Not in North America,

1663
01:36:29,040 --> 01:36:33,000
Speaker 1: South America. I've never heard of that. I think it

1664
01:36:33,080 --> 01:36:35,040
Speaker 1: was two years ago there or something that came out

1665
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:40,559
Speaker 1: that was pretty underwater cave. Oh so in Mexico. Yeah,

1666
01:36:40,600 --> 01:36:43,360
Speaker 1: there is a human skull, yes, and so maybe there

1667
01:36:43,439 --> 01:36:48,320
Speaker 1: was over the head yeah, um so yeah when that

1668
01:36:48,400 --> 01:36:50,559
Speaker 1: was yeah, I believe that was in Mexico, but it

1669
01:36:50,680 --> 01:36:55,680
Speaker 1: was a very confused stratigraphy, like that thing had been

1670
01:36:55,680 --> 01:36:59,400
Speaker 1: collected shipped for a long time. Yeah, imagine slimming down

1671
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:01,760
Speaker 1: there and there's a lay school there. But that's an

1672
01:37:01,800 --> 01:37:05,920
Speaker 1: insane I mean, we're basing a lot off of very

1673
01:37:06,000 --> 01:37:10,160
Speaker 1: few sites that we know for sure humans actually carved

1674
01:37:10,280 --> 01:37:14,160
Speaker 1: on just a handful of creators. If we were regularly

1675
01:37:14,240 --> 01:37:18,280
Speaker 1: hunting these mega mammals, you know, hundreds hundreds of millions

1676
01:37:18,280 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 1: of these specimens, right, we'd be finding Clovis points in

1677
01:37:21,080 --> 01:37:24,080
Speaker 1: association with these things all over the place. But they're

1678
01:37:24,160 --> 01:37:27,519
Speaker 1: only but you're not finding clothes like Okay, look at this.

1679
01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:30,200
Speaker 1: If you're going by that piece of evidence, then we'd

1680
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:31,960
Speaker 1: have to say there weren't any Clovis hunters because we've

1681
01:37:31,960 --> 01:37:36,000
Speaker 1: only found one. Well, you have the Anzick one boy,

1682
01:37:36,240 --> 01:37:38,040
Speaker 1: So if you're gonna go by what you found, then

1683
01:37:38,040 --> 01:37:39,559
Speaker 1: we have to say that there weren't any people think

1684
01:37:39,720 --> 01:37:43,120
Speaker 1: we haven't found them, Well, but we've got their artifacts. Yeah,

1685
01:37:43,160 --> 01:37:47,840
Speaker 1: but we've got stone. Last stone lasts a long time.

1686
01:37:49,080 --> 01:37:53,800
Speaker 1: No mega mammal bones, do I see what you're saying,

1687
01:37:53,840 --> 01:37:57,559
Speaker 1: But you see what I'm saying. And zigone and zig one,

1688
01:37:57,640 --> 01:38:00,599
Speaker 1: you could easily make the jump and say, oh, these

1689
01:38:00,600 --> 01:38:03,400
Speaker 1: are ceremonial points that weren't actually used for anything. The

1690
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:06,120
Speaker 1: other issue too with Clovis burials is it is a

1691
01:38:06,200 --> 01:38:09,960
Speaker 1: mystery as to why we only have one. Like, we

1692
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:13,120
Speaker 1: don't like, where are these Clovis bones, But maybe they

1693
01:38:13,160 --> 01:38:14,840
Speaker 1: buried them on cin They didn't bury, but they did,

1694
01:38:14,880 --> 01:38:17,439
Speaker 1: like the planes tribes and put them on scaffold. That's possible.

1695
01:38:17,600 --> 01:38:20,120
Speaker 1: So there's something behavioral with Clovis that we just don't

1696
01:38:20,160 --> 01:38:22,840
Speaker 1: know what's going on. Why Because we have hundreds of

1697
01:38:22,840 --> 01:38:27,639
Speaker 1: Neanderthal skeletons from three hundred thousand to fifty thousand years ago,

1698
01:38:27,840 --> 01:38:30,720
Speaker 1: Clovis is only thirteen thousand years ago, and we only

1699
01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:33,519
Speaker 1: have one and it's an infant. So what Clovised people

1700
01:38:33,560 --> 01:38:36,320
Speaker 1: are doing with their burials or with their you know,

1701
01:38:36,360 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 1: deceased relatives, we have no idea. That's interesting man, Like

1702
01:38:39,080 --> 01:38:41,960
Speaker 1: they weren't intering them in caves. No, And what's really

1703
01:38:42,000 --> 01:38:45,479
Speaker 1: strange about Clovis too is that they do not seem

1704
01:38:45,520 --> 01:38:48,920
Speaker 1: to utilize rock shelters or caves at all. Every other

1705
01:38:49,000 --> 01:38:52,519
Speaker 1: hunter gatherer group around the world passed and present, going

1706
01:38:52,560 --> 01:38:56,679
Speaker 1: back two million years to you know, modern hunter gatherers

1707
01:38:57,040 --> 01:39:01,559
Speaker 1: use caves and rock shelters. There are no Clovis rock

1708
01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:05,320
Speaker 1: shelter sites or cave sites. What's the speculation like hide shelters,

1709
01:39:05,400 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 1: big spiders. I don't know. Maybe it could be some

1710
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:12,280
Speaker 1: sort of taboo, some cultural thing again ritual maybe rituals

1711
01:39:12,320 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 1: because like the people, uh, the Europeans that used the

1712
01:39:18,080 --> 01:39:22,000
Speaker 1: similar tech tool technology and associated with a similar suite

1713
01:39:22,000 --> 01:39:25,280
Speaker 1: of animals, they even call them like caveman. Oh yeah,

1714
01:39:25,360 --> 01:39:27,280
Speaker 1: I'm always correcting my kids because they want to call

1715
01:39:27,840 --> 01:39:30,120
Speaker 1: like they know about me being really interested in ice

1716
01:39:30,240 --> 01:39:32,439
Speaker 1: h hunters, and they're always calling them caveman. And I'm like,

1717
01:39:32,479 --> 01:39:35,639
Speaker 1: on the contrary, anthropologists think that they weren't real big

1718
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 1: into caves. They didn't hang out in caves. No, they

1719
01:39:38,439 --> 01:39:40,639
Speaker 1: did in Europe, and after what I'm saying here here,

1720
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:43,880
Speaker 1: they didn't exact I've only just read that that they

1721
01:39:43,880 --> 01:39:45,519
Speaker 1: didn't like going and not that they didn't like We

1722
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:47,519
Speaker 1: don't know what they thought of them, but that you

1723
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:50,479
Speaker 1: don't find their bones and tools and stuff in rock

1724
01:39:50,720 --> 01:39:53,360
Speaker 1: rock led shelters. Not place the scene now, once we

1725
01:39:53,360 --> 01:39:54,880
Speaker 1: get into the hole of the the scene after ten tho

1726
01:39:55,160 --> 01:39:58,479
Speaker 1: years ago, we see people in North America using caves

1727
01:39:58,520 --> 01:40:01,240
Speaker 1: and rock shelters all the time. So it's just for

1728
01:40:01,280 --> 01:40:04,760
Speaker 1: whatever reason that blip of Clovis for about five to

1729
01:40:04,840 --> 01:40:08,240
Speaker 1: six hundred to seven hundred years, caves are just sort

1730
01:40:08,280 --> 01:40:11,840
Speaker 1: of off the real estate market. I don't know why.

1731
01:40:12,400 --> 01:40:16,280
Speaker 1: Uh you said that someone could make one of them. Well,

1732
01:40:16,360 --> 01:40:18,120
Speaker 1: let me ask that question first. So you think of

1733
01:40:18,160 --> 01:40:19,519
Speaker 1: what I'm at, what I should be holding right now

1734
01:40:19,560 --> 01:40:26,760
Speaker 1: as a knife, Yes, that's just it. So they could

1735
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:30,920
Speaker 1: be used for hunting weaponry and projectile technology as well,

1736
01:40:30,960 --> 01:40:35,040
Speaker 1: But for smaller things like deer elk um, they just

1737
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:38,439
Speaker 1: don't They wouldn't penetrate deep enough to do anything to mammoth.

1738
01:40:38,640 --> 01:40:41,240
Speaker 1: So I think they could be used as hunting weapons.

1739
01:40:41,360 --> 01:40:44,479
Speaker 1: And look, it's possible that Clovis folks did occasionally take

1740
01:40:44,479 --> 01:40:46,960
Speaker 1: down to mammoth. I'm not saying they never hunted mammoth ever,

1741
01:40:47,840 --> 01:40:52,120
Speaker 1: But the question is did they hunt these things to extinction?

1742
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:55,559
Speaker 1: And is the Clovis point some sort of stone age

1743
01:40:55,560 --> 01:40:58,120
Speaker 1: bazooka that allowed them to do that with ease? And

1744
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,600
Speaker 1: and the answer is no. The of this point just

1745
01:41:00,720 --> 01:41:03,479
Speaker 1: isn't this a K forty seven where you could just

1746
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:06,120
Speaker 1: mote on mammoths. And but that's the impression that archaeologist

1747
01:41:06,120 --> 01:41:09,040
Speaker 1: has published for for decades. If they couldn't kill them

1748
01:41:09,040 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 1: with Clovis points, do they have any other creative solutions

1749
01:41:11,360 --> 01:41:13,599
Speaker 1: to kill the mammoth? Well, so this is it. This

1750
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:17,160
Speaker 1: is where the faults of the archaeological record really come

1751
01:41:17,200 --> 01:41:20,320
Speaker 1: into play. Like maybe they use some sort of poison

1752
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:23,920
Speaker 1: that has not preserved on Clovis points you know today,

1753
01:41:23,960 --> 01:41:25,799
Speaker 1: So maybe they use some sort of poison to takedown

1754
01:41:25,800 --> 01:41:32,519
Speaker 1: mammoths drive from what I don't know any well. And

1755
01:41:32,560 --> 01:41:35,160
Speaker 1: the issue too with poison is because Clovised people were

1756
01:41:35,360 --> 01:41:38,360
Speaker 1: relatively new to the landscape, they would have needed to

1757
01:41:38,439 --> 01:41:41,879
Speaker 1: learn which plants to to utilize to make those poisons

1758
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:45,000
Speaker 1: and what quantities. So I find the idea that they

1759
01:41:45,040 --> 01:41:50,320
Speaker 1: use poison um not very convincing. But that's that's possible,

1760
01:41:50,360 --> 01:41:52,559
Speaker 1: and that's something we can't falsify at this point. What

1761
01:41:52,680 --> 01:41:55,599
Speaker 1: about just like driving them off cliffs and then going

1762
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:58,160
Speaker 1: to the bottom of that cliff and then dispatching them

1763
01:41:58,200 --> 01:42:01,080
Speaker 1: with like the Clovis points. So we do have bison

1764
01:42:01,200 --> 01:42:04,760
Speaker 1: jumps in later time periods um where people would drive

1765
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,519
Speaker 1: bison off the cliffs and then you know, they butcher

1766
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:10,040
Speaker 1: the top layer and then there's like two or three

1767
01:42:10,040 --> 01:42:14,240
Speaker 1: bison deep where they just couldn't get to them. Because yeah, um,

1768
01:42:14,280 --> 01:42:18,120
Speaker 1: we've never found a mammoth jump um, and I feel

1769
01:42:18,160 --> 01:42:21,640
Speaker 1: like we'd find that if that existed at this point. Um.

1770
01:42:21,680 --> 01:42:25,560
Speaker 1: So there's all those great dioramas, aren't there, dioramas of

1771
01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:30,160
Speaker 1: people with like sticks pushing and we were kids a

1772
01:42:30,200 --> 01:42:32,040
Speaker 1: book we used to there's a great picture in one

1773
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:33,720
Speaker 1: of our books, and they had gotten one in a

1774
01:42:33,800 --> 01:42:38,000
Speaker 1: pit trap and we're hurling giant rocks down on it.

1775
01:42:38,200 --> 01:42:43,160
Speaker 1: Well the first skirts. So that's a possibility, right, you

1776
01:42:43,240 --> 01:42:46,200
Speaker 1: drive a mammoth into an arroyo and and it gets

1777
01:42:46,200 --> 01:42:49,519
Speaker 1: stuck like or maybe it's already sick or dying so

1778
01:42:49,600 --> 01:42:54,000
Speaker 1: close people or whatever you had. But like this idea

1779
01:42:54,040 --> 01:42:56,960
Speaker 1: that Clovis folks, that is what they did and that's

1780
01:42:56,960 --> 01:43:00,960
Speaker 1: who they were, they were mammoth hunters, just isn't supported. Um,

1781
01:43:01,000 --> 01:43:04,599
Speaker 1: So that would just be like saying, you know, well,

1782
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:06,120
Speaker 1: actually I can't come up with an analogy, so you

1783
01:43:06,120 --> 01:43:08,479
Speaker 1: can cut this part. Let me let me tell you

1784
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:09,760
Speaker 1: about have you have you ever heard of the book

1785
01:43:09,800 --> 01:43:13,719
Speaker 1: The Oregon Trail. I played the dos game in the nineties.

1786
01:43:14,560 --> 01:43:17,120
Speaker 1: There's a historian. There's a guy that wrote at the

1787
01:43:17,160 --> 01:43:20,479
Speaker 1: time the definitive History of the French and Indian War.

1788
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:24,200
Speaker 1: And his name was Francis Parkman, and he had a

1789
01:43:24,280 --> 01:43:25,960
Speaker 1: long problem. I can't hemera what it was. And his

1790
01:43:26,040 --> 01:43:27,640
Speaker 1: doctor said, you needed you know what they used to

1791
01:43:27,640 --> 01:43:29,200
Speaker 1: send everybody. What the hell do you have when they

1792
01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:36,120
Speaker 1: send you? Right? Was consumption? Was TV? Right? Yeah, They're like,

1793
01:43:36,160 --> 01:43:38,320
Speaker 1: you gotta go out to the dry climates, you know,

1794
01:43:38,400 --> 01:43:41,840
Speaker 1: to survive. It was like a big thing. Uh. A

1795
01:43:41,880 --> 01:43:44,320
Speaker 1: woman would cop blood into a handkerchief. Yeah. The doctor

1796
01:43:44,560 --> 01:43:50,240
Speaker 1: like town exactly right, exactly. Uh. So this fellow Francis Parkman,

1797
01:43:50,560 --> 01:43:55,599
Speaker 1: he went out in eighteen forty six and wound up

1798
01:43:56,560 --> 01:44:03,519
Speaker 1: traveling with the Iguala Sioux and likely was in Crazy

1799
01:44:03,560 --> 01:44:06,519
Speaker 1: Horses camp when Crazy Horse would have been about thirteen

1800
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:10,080
Speaker 1: years old. They go into the Black Hills to collect

1801
01:44:10,280 --> 01:44:13,280
Speaker 1: He goes with the Iguala Sou into the Black Hills

1802
01:44:13,320 --> 01:44:18,360
Speaker 1: to collect tep poles and describes there how one day

1803
01:44:18,520 --> 01:44:21,760
Speaker 1: they get on a ledge up above a herd of

1804
01:44:21,840 --> 01:44:27,559
Speaker 1: big horns and start rolling trundling rocks down through the

1805
01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:31,760
Speaker 1: herd and kill something that's amazing, and he explains it

1806
01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 1: very explicitly, and it's like, um, that doesn't get that's

1807
01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:39,519
Speaker 1: preserved because he saw it. And this is the thing

1808
01:44:39,520 --> 01:44:41,120
Speaker 1: we've talked about when we talk about these things like

1809
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:45,040
Speaker 1: archaeological stings, and were they like were they ten years later?

1810
01:44:45,360 --> 01:44:48,760
Speaker 1: Do you remember that weird ass time when we got

1811
01:44:48,800 --> 01:44:52,160
Speaker 1: on that hill and freakishly there's a hundred big horns

1812
01:44:52,240 --> 01:44:55,040
Speaker 1: and frequently there's like these big, huge rocks and they

1813
01:44:55,080 --> 01:45:01,400
Speaker 1: were like and how weird that was? Right? Right, despite

1814
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:05,800
Speaker 1: having all these other technologies, right, instead of using the

1815
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,360
Speaker 1: guns that we had, instead of using the spears, instead

1816
01:45:08,360 --> 01:45:11,560
Speaker 1: of using the bows. Yeah, or was it like you

1817
01:45:11,600 --> 01:45:14,519
Speaker 1: know what we like to do, come May, we get

1818
01:45:14,560 --> 01:45:19,200
Speaker 1: on a big cliff every year and trundull big horns,

1819
01:45:19,320 --> 01:45:22,040
Speaker 1: death of big rocks, right, because there's just there's like

1820
01:45:22,080 --> 01:45:25,120
Speaker 1: a certain amount of just like freaking ship happen. Yeah, definitely,

1821
01:45:25,120 --> 01:45:27,800
Speaker 1: you know. And so the fact that like you come

1822
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:29,439
Speaker 1: across the man was stuck in the mud and some

1823
01:45:29,479 --> 01:45:32,800
Speaker 1: guy manages the you know, taken an hour or so

1824
01:45:32,880 --> 01:45:36,240
Speaker 1: of his time, Jeff, some holes into over and over

1825
01:45:37,960 --> 01:45:39,800
Speaker 1: like jab it's eye out till it dies with a

1826
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:42,960
Speaker 1: Clovis points. I don't know sure, yeah, no cloths, people

1827
01:45:43,000 --> 01:45:46,880
Speaker 1: could have occasionally taken one out. Um, but you bring

1828
01:45:47,000 --> 01:45:50,240
Speaker 1: up like these historic accounts and we can get into

1829
01:45:50,240 --> 01:45:54,360
Speaker 1: the ethnographic record of elephant hunting, and that's where we

1830
01:45:54,400 --> 01:45:56,639
Speaker 1: can start to look at well, okay, let's look at

1831
01:45:56,680 --> 01:46:01,320
Speaker 1: folks who have metal spears. Right, there are documented cases

1832
01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:05,680
Speaker 1: of the mabooty in Africa of spear hunting elephants are

1833
01:46:05,680 --> 01:46:09,559
Speaker 1: trying to spear hunt elephants and they're metal spears bend

1834
01:46:09,840 --> 01:46:14,640
Speaker 1: and bounce off Bisa. Hunters with muzzle loaders only have

1835
01:46:14,680 --> 01:46:20,360
Speaker 1: a twenty percent success rate of of taking out mammoths. Yeah, elephants, elephants,

1836
01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:23,439
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, And so like this idea that with modern

1837
01:46:23,479 --> 01:46:26,679
Speaker 1: metals and and even firearms, it's hard to to take

1838
01:46:26,680 --> 01:46:29,720
Speaker 1: out an elephant, which is smaller than a mammoth, the idea,

1839
01:46:29,880 --> 01:46:31,680
Speaker 1: and you don't have that hair and you don't have

1840
01:46:32,080 --> 01:46:35,960
Speaker 1: yeah exactly, and hair can really slow down projectiles dirty

1841
01:46:36,160 --> 01:46:41,720
Speaker 1: oh yeah, sam, mud filled hair. Never tried to skin

1842
01:46:41,840 --> 01:46:45,120
Speaker 1: of critter with a knife, tried to jab a man

1843
01:46:45,200 --> 01:46:49,559
Speaker 1: with under those conditions, So it's uh, it would have

1844
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:52,360
Speaker 1: been a challenge. And so this idea that they just

1845
01:46:52,400 --> 01:46:55,120
Speaker 1: did it all the time, I just isn't supported. So

1846
01:46:55,200 --> 01:46:57,240
Speaker 1: you don't know where I caught you in a contradiction.

1847
01:46:57,720 --> 01:47:00,720
Speaker 1: It could correct your career, you know, it's I made

1848
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:02,960
Speaker 1: knives out of my own frozen poop. So I don't

1849
01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:04,640
Speaker 1: know if i'd call it a career. Earlier, you we

1850
01:47:04,760 --> 01:47:06,840
Speaker 1: we're talking about fluting. Yeah, and you pointed out that

1851
01:47:06,880 --> 01:47:11,519
Speaker 1: it could act as a shock absorber. But but there

1852
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,879
Speaker 1: was a knife. No, No, it was a multi functional

1853
01:47:13,920 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 1: tool that could also be used to say, it could

1854
01:47:18,280 --> 01:47:21,719
Speaker 1: be you know, used for deer, moose or or elker

1855
01:47:21,920 --> 01:47:26,640
Speaker 1: or whatever. So yeah, um, a colleague, try to do

1856
01:47:26,680 --> 01:47:28,160
Speaker 1: that to me too, You try to ruin your career,

1857
01:47:28,880 --> 01:47:32,240
Speaker 1: same thing, you know, the exact Yeah, but now that

1858
01:47:32,240 --> 01:47:34,080
Speaker 1: I think about it, you already said that it probably

1859
01:47:34,160 --> 01:47:36,439
Speaker 1: was and they might used it for fighting each other

1860
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:40,320
Speaker 1: or self defense. Um. This is the other thing about

1861
01:47:40,320 --> 01:47:44,840
Speaker 1: Clovis points. They're so big, um that I am starting

1862
01:47:44,840 --> 01:47:49,920
Speaker 1: to suspect that they were probably used primarily on handheld spears. Um,

1863
01:47:49,960 --> 01:47:52,280
Speaker 1: because think about it, right, you are new to this continent.

1864
01:47:52,680 --> 01:47:54,800
Speaker 1: There's all sorts of critters that want to eat you,

1865
01:47:54,920 --> 01:48:00,360
Speaker 1: short faced bear, sabertooth tigers, Your and your population densities

1866
01:48:00,400 --> 01:48:03,559
Speaker 1: are really low because you're peopling this new continent. You

1867
01:48:03,600 --> 01:48:05,280
Speaker 1: want to do everything you can to survive. When you're

1868
01:48:05,280 --> 01:48:08,000
Speaker 1: out in the wild, you need some form of self defense.

1869
01:48:08,520 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 1: Um and so more and more I'm starting to think

1870
01:48:10,360 --> 01:48:12,639
Speaker 1: to my mind that maybe Clovis points would have served

1871
01:48:12,680 --> 01:48:15,160
Speaker 1: that purpose as well, and it had a stick and

1872
01:48:15,160 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 1: it was just like a d all. Yeah, again, I

1873
01:48:18,120 --> 01:48:20,400
Speaker 1: want to say new to this continent by like, what's

1874
01:48:20,400 --> 01:48:28,040
Speaker 1: your context? Right? Are you fifth generation new to this continent? Right? Like? What? Well,

1875
01:48:28,120 --> 01:48:31,439
Speaker 1: So this gets into the whole issue of when North

1876
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:36,839
Speaker 1: America's was peopled. Right, So, there are pre Clovis people's

1877
01:48:36,960 --> 01:48:40,919
Speaker 1: in North America. Now there they seem to be limited

1878
01:48:40,920 --> 01:48:44,960
Speaker 1: to the West coast, Pacific, Northwest, and the southwest. There

1879
01:48:45,000 --> 01:48:47,479
Speaker 1: are areas of North America where it looks like people

1880
01:48:47,479 --> 01:48:50,519
Speaker 1: who use Clovis technology were first, So that would be

1881
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:54,720
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes, New England, probably the southeast parts. Um.

1882
01:48:55,040 --> 01:48:58,320
Speaker 1: So Clovis was first in some regions, but they had

1883
01:48:58,320 --> 01:49:03,320
Speaker 1: predecessors in other regions because the fluted point was invented here.

1884
01:49:03,640 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 1: We don't find the Clovis fluted point anywhere else in

1885
01:49:06,240 --> 01:49:08,839
Speaker 1: Asia or anything like that. So if it was invented

1886
01:49:08,840 --> 01:49:11,799
Speaker 1: in North America. There had to have been pre Clovised

1887
01:49:11,800 --> 01:49:14,559
Speaker 1: people here to invent it. Yeah. I've heard people in

1888
01:49:14,600 --> 01:49:17,639
Speaker 1: trying to describe the Clovis culturalist sort of like it

1889
01:49:17,760 --> 01:49:24,120
Speaker 1: was the first widespread American born. Yeah, that's a good description.

1890
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:28,479
Speaker 1: How long did the Clovis culture last? Only about anywhere

1891
01:49:28,479 --> 01:49:31,720
Speaker 1: from five hundred to probably eight hundred years. Yeah, it

1892
01:49:31,760 --> 01:49:35,000
Speaker 1: did not last long. Now the reason why? Well, yeah,

1893
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:37,439
Speaker 1: but how I mean it a long? Like think about

1894
01:49:37,479 --> 01:49:40,360
Speaker 1: how long has America been here? Well, that's true, but

1895
01:49:40,439 --> 01:49:44,559
Speaker 1: when you mean they're like five Americas, that's true, but

1896
01:49:44,800 --> 01:49:47,160
Speaker 1: I mean America the country. Yeah, you're like, oh, that's

1897
01:49:47,160 --> 01:49:49,439
Speaker 1: not very long, and they're like, well that is pretty long. Well,

1898
01:49:49,720 --> 01:49:56,519
Speaker 1: but my math stone technology good, I'm saying it's a

1899
01:49:56,560 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 1: long time. Yeah, but Clovis points compared to something like this,

1900
01:50:01,600 --> 01:50:04,160
Speaker 1: which is so this is the ashlet in hand ax

1901
01:50:04,240 --> 01:50:08,519
Speaker 1: made by Homorectus. So it is a large tear drop

1902
01:50:08,560 --> 01:50:12,880
Speaker 1: shaped object that is much larger than my face. I

1903
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:15,800
Speaker 1: don't know what else to say. Gorgeous, man, But this

1904
01:50:15,920 --> 01:50:20,040
Speaker 1: lasted for one point five million years, this particular, so

1905
01:50:20,320 --> 01:50:23,200
Speaker 1: you'll find them in the human record for that long. Yeah. Really,

1906
01:50:23,280 --> 01:50:26,479
Speaker 1: long time. So it's an idea that stuck. Yeah, so

1907
01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:28,760
Speaker 1: you like the idea of Clovis points last for eight

1908
01:50:28,800 --> 01:50:32,280
Speaker 1: hundred years is not long at all? One point five

1909
01:50:32,439 --> 01:50:35,920
Speaker 1: million years. This thing, Homorectus was just using this over

1910
01:50:35,920 --> 01:50:40,680
Speaker 1: and over again to chop up tubers and disarticulate skeletons.

1911
01:50:41,080 --> 01:50:43,920
Speaker 1: So see when you came in, this is a good

1912
01:50:43,920 --> 01:50:50,120
Speaker 1: transition into like how stuff was produced. Um, I a

1913
01:50:50,240 --> 01:50:51,880
Speaker 1: real quick to you. Just as we pass this around,

1914
01:50:52,000 --> 01:50:55,720
Speaker 1: obsidian does get sharp to the molecule, So just when

1915
01:50:55,760 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 1: you're passing it around, don't like touch the edge. Yeah,

1916
01:50:59,760 --> 01:51:03,760
Speaker 1: woke me through based on what we found. What we found, Like,

1917
01:51:03,880 --> 01:51:09,479
Speaker 1: let's say on this continent, A your hunter gatherer and

1918
01:51:09,600 --> 01:51:12,120
Speaker 1: you use stone tools. So you use stone, spear points,

1919
01:51:12,120 --> 01:51:15,080
Speaker 1: stone arrow points, stone knives, right, all your hardships made

1920
01:51:15,080 --> 01:51:20,680
Speaker 1: out of stone. Um, leave out trade networks and just

1921
01:51:20,760 --> 01:51:23,720
Speaker 1: walk me through sort of like the process of one

1922
01:51:23,720 --> 01:51:27,559
Speaker 1: minute you have nothing and then you have these like

1923
01:51:27,640 --> 01:51:38,160
Speaker 1: finally wrought pieces. So alright, so this is a I'm

1924
01:51:38,200 --> 01:51:41,679
Speaker 1: holding a raw piece of shirt that I just almost

1925
01:51:41,680 --> 01:51:45,599
Speaker 1: destroyed your microphone with. Um. Now this is called George

1926
01:51:45,600 --> 01:51:47,880
Speaker 1: Town shirt from Texas, and iously that I think you're

1927
01:51:47,880 --> 01:51:50,600
Speaker 1: holding the hunkle bone. Yeah, we're like the outside of it.

1928
01:51:50,680 --> 01:51:55,479
Speaker 1: This is rock and it's got this chalky substance cortex almost.

1929
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:58,120
Speaker 1: So that's like you find that laying on the ground.

1930
01:51:58,120 --> 01:51:59,759
Speaker 1: You find that laying on the ground, you can quarry

1931
01:51:59,760 --> 01:52:01,839
Speaker 1: it a well, dig it out at like a churt outcrop.

1932
01:52:02,360 --> 01:52:06,120
Speaker 1: Now something like that. I would start chipping with the

1933
01:52:06,240 --> 01:52:08,080
Speaker 1: hammerstones and stuff which I brought. I can do some

1934
01:52:08,120 --> 01:52:09,760
Speaker 1: tipping for you guys. No, no, no, no, aren't we

1935
01:52:09,760 --> 01:52:11,479
Speaker 1: through it? Man? But do you want to bust that

1936
01:52:11,520 --> 01:52:12,960
Speaker 1: one up? Or you like that one too? No? No,

1937
01:52:13,080 --> 01:52:15,479
Speaker 1: I brought that to break for you, guys. That's a

1938
01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:19,080
Speaker 1: beauty piece. Oh no, I mean which is like trying

1939
01:52:19,080 --> 01:52:23,240
Speaker 1: to break it. And it's like called the conchoidal fracture

1940
01:52:23,520 --> 01:52:27,600
Speaker 1: conchoidal fracture, and so what it means is chirt, basalt, obsidian.

1941
01:52:27,960 --> 01:52:32,120
Speaker 1: These are all rocks that break like glass um and

1942
01:52:32,720 --> 01:52:36,639
Speaker 1: concoidal means shell like the fracture. Yeah, I've heard that word.

1943
01:52:36,680 --> 01:52:38,599
Speaker 1: I never put together what it means. Yeah, it means

1944
01:52:38,600 --> 01:52:41,599
Speaker 1: like a little scallop shell. Exactly when you flake it,

1945
01:52:41,600 --> 01:52:44,120
Speaker 1: it leaves like a little scalp shell shape. That's exactly right.

1946
01:52:44,160 --> 01:52:47,240
Speaker 1: And because that shape is predictable, and if you understand

1947
01:52:47,240 --> 01:52:50,519
Speaker 1: the angles and where to hit it, the fracture becomes

1948
01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:54,160
Speaker 1: really predictable and you can basically make whatever you want. UM.

1949
01:52:54,200 --> 01:52:56,639
Speaker 1: So a piece like that you would sort of thin

1950
01:52:56,800 --> 01:53:01,439
Speaker 1: down into a larger naps. So this is the same stone.

1951
01:53:01,880 --> 01:53:03,920
Speaker 1: Is that called a byface or this is called a

1952
01:53:03,960 --> 01:53:06,400
Speaker 1: byface because I've I've take flakes off of both sides,

1953
01:53:07,200 --> 01:53:09,360
Speaker 1: um and it's got a nice sharp edge. I could

1954
01:53:09,439 --> 01:53:14,479
Speaker 1: use this as a processing tool. So now the hunk

1955
01:53:14,520 --> 01:53:18,360
Speaker 1: of what's that? What's that again? That's Georgetown shirt? So

1956
01:53:18,560 --> 01:53:20,680
Speaker 1: we got a huge as hunk at Georgetown chirt and

1957
01:53:20,840 --> 01:53:24,120
Speaker 1: what's the way six pounds? Yeah, I mean it basically

1958
01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:27,840
Speaker 1: looks like a big rock um with what's down the

1959
01:53:27,880 --> 01:53:32,000
Speaker 1: outside the cortex white CORTI like a dough colored cortex

1960
01:53:32,040 --> 01:53:34,879
Speaker 1: on the outside, but the inside is like classic smooth,

1961
01:53:35,040 --> 01:53:38,960
Speaker 1: kind of flint looking, flinty looking rock. And this, like

1962
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:41,000
Speaker 1: I said, you picked this up off the ground like

1963
01:53:41,720 --> 01:53:44,920
Speaker 1: right where God laid it, Like there it is okay.

1964
01:53:45,160 --> 01:53:50,240
Speaker 1: And then someone's not gonna like walk away with fifty

1965
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:53,479
Speaker 1: pounds of this ship in his bag. They might, oh

1966
01:53:53,560 --> 01:53:56,880
Speaker 1: you think so, yeah, you would see these. You'd see

1967
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:59,880
Speaker 1: these move from sources. We see people transport rock all

1968
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:02,800
Speaker 1: sorts of distances. Yeah, like in this form, yeah oh yeah,

1969
01:54:02,800 --> 01:54:05,120
Speaker 1: in raw form, also in processed form, because I was

1970
01:54:05,160 --> 01:54:07,479
Speaker 1: picturing them getting it, like down to what I'm holding

1971
01:54:07,560 --> 01:54:12,240
Speaker 1: my other hand, which is this, Uh how how thick

1972
01:54:12,320 --> 01:54:14,640
Speaker 1: is that? It's like thick is a slice of bread. Yeah,

1973
01:54:14,840 --> 01:54:17,360
Speaker 1: all cleaned up on all sides. It's almost kind of

1974
01:54:17,400 --> 01:54:19,960
Speaker 1: like an a workable knife shape, right now, that's right,

1975
01:54:20,240 --> 01:54:24,120
Speaker 1: And then of this you could further And what's the

1976
01:54:24,120 --> 01:54:26,920
Speaker 1: advantage of that by face that you're holding is that

1977
01:54:27,280 --> 01:54:30,120
Speaker 1: it's not sort of the knife itself or the by

1978
01:54:30,160 --> 01:54:32,360
Speaker 1: face itself. It's all the fact that all the flakes

1979
01:54:32,400 --> 01:54:36,800
Speaker 1: that come off are really useful and razor sharp. Um.

1980
01:54:36,840 --> 01:54:39,480
Speaker 1: So this this by face is like a little container

1981
01:54:39,600 --> 01:54:42,360
Speaker 1: of stone flakes from every time I take one off,

1982
01:54:42,400 --> 01:54:44,880
Speaker 1: I'm like removing a flake from this container to make

1983
01:54:44,920 --> 01:54:47,720
Speaker 1: all sorts of other tools or arrow heads or scrapers

1984
01:54:47,800 --> 01:54:52,000
Speaker 1: or whatever. What's the furthest you ever seen like like

1985
01:54:52,120 --> 01:54:55,960
Speaker 1: origin toolstone travel from like where you expected to find

1986
01:54:56,000 --> 01:54:59,680
Speaker 1: it to where like you recovered like an artifact. Yeah,

1987
01:54:59,720 --> 01:55:02,760
Speaker 1: so they there's a site in northeastern Ohio called Paleo

1988
01:55:02,840 --> 01:55:06,880
Speaker 1: Crossing that I've been working on since I was a teenager. Um.

1989
01:55:07,080 --> 01:55:10,680
Speaker 1: And uh, the the rock was transported by Clovis people

1990
01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:14,720
Speaker 1: over six hundred kilometers UM. And so they picked up

1991
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:19,000
Speaker 1: what's called Wyan dot Churt from southern Indiana and western Kentucky.

1992
01:55:19,120 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 1: And probably because they didn't know if there was going

1993
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:24,360
Speaker 1: to be resupply rock in northern Ohio where they were

1994
01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:26,520
Speaker 1: going to because they were sort of moving into that

1995
01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:29,280
Speaker 1: region for the first time, they geared up and they

1996
01:55:29,320 --> 01:55:32,480
Speaker 1: prepared and they took a ton of this wine dot

1997
01:55:32,560 --> 01:55:36,600
Speaker 1: Churt and transported it northward to northeastern Ohio. Like how

1998
01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:38,120
Speaker 1: much is a ton? I mean, like I know how

1999
01:55:38,200 --> 01:55:43,280
Speaker 1: much of ton? So we're talking about forty Clovis points. Uh,

2000
01:55:43,320 --> 01:55:47,320
Speaker 1: something like eight hundred scrapers. You got a site that

2001
01:55:47,360 --> 01:55:52,680
Speaker 1: put off forty Clovis points. Oh yeah, oh yeah, if

2002
01:55:52,720 --> 01:55:54,080
Speaker 1: you want to see them too, you guys are all

2003
01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:56,960
Speaker 1: welcome to come to the lab and and over how

2004
01:55:57,000 --> 01:56:01,520
Speaker 1: big of an area? Ah, probably, I'm just trying to

2005
01:56:01,560 --> 01:56:06,839
Speaker 1: think in terms of fifty square meters. No ship really, Yeah,

2006
01:56:06,880 --> 01:56:09,560
Speaker 1: it's pretty sweet, was it was? It a good decision

2007
01:56:09,560 --> 01:56:11,080
Speaker 1: for them to move all that shirt or do they

2008
01:56:11,160 --> 01:56:13,560
Speaker 1: have like some good source material to where they took it?

2009
01:56:13,680 --> 01:56:17,400
Speaker 1: So why not shurt is awesome? Um so they were

2010
01:56:17,440 --> 01:56:18,920
Speaker 1: they knew what they were doing when they picked up

2011
01:56:18,920 --> 01:56:21,040
Speaker 1: a bunch of it, and so of geared good rock.

2012
01:56:21,240 --> 01:56:25,240
Speaker 1: Oh it's good rock. It's really good. I'm real dumb

2013
01:56:26,080 --> 01:56:30,600
Speaker 1: and so. But but again, there is rock in Ohio.

2014
01:56:30,800 --> 01:56:33,880
Speaker 1: But since they had never been there before, they didn't know,

2015
01:56:33,960 --> 01:56:37,680
Speaker 1: so they prepared. They took a bunch up with them. Yeah,

2016
01:56:37,840 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 1: so you go smart from vacation, you bring a bunch

2017
01:56:39,640 --> 01:56:41,520
Speaker 1: of sunscreen and you realize was a bunch of sunscreen

2018
01:56:41,560 --> 01:56:45,160
Speaker 1: and the airbnb. That's right, that's right. We were in

2019
01:56:45,640 --> 01:56:50,360
Speaker 1: Nebraska on a deer hunt and on this this place

2020
01:56:50,400 --> 01:56:54,920
Speaker 1: where it went, there was barely any rock and most

2021
01:56:55,280 --> 01:56:59,800
Speaker 1: it was just and if you found a rock, it

2022
01:56:59,880 --> 01:57:03,800
Speaker 1: was most likely brought there. Yeah. Yeah, the rancher we're talking,

2023
01:57:03,800 --> 01:57:05,400
Speaker 1: he was saying that he goes well in this area,

2024
01:57:05,760 --> 01:57:07,880
Speaker 1: just the fact that it is rock. It's probably you

2025
01:57:07,880 --> 01:57:10,160
Speaker 1: should worth looking at because because there's nothing, there's no

2026
01:57:10,280 --> 01:57:12,960
Speaker 1: rock here, man, rock here's something It came in someone

2027
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:16,600
Speaker 1: carried it. No, definitely, and I think god we used

2028
01:57:16,720 --> 01:57:20,560
Speaker 1: flint and basalt and conquitally fractured rocks for three million years.

2029
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:24,160
Speaker 1: I mean, this stuff is the most valuable stuff I

2030
01:57:24,160 --> 01:57:27,080
Speaker 1: think our species ever used. I mean, it got us

2031
01:57:27,120 --> 01:57:29,960
Speaker 1: to where we are today. I mean, and then it's

2032
01:57:30,000 --> 01:57:32,280
Speaker 1: the origin of the firearms industry in a lot of ways,

2033
01:57:32,720 --> 01:57:36,040
Speaker 1: gun flints, right, and then there are hunter gatherer groups

2034
01:57:36,080 --> 01:57:40,480
Speaker 1: today that's still use concutely fractured rock for various tools

2035
01:57:40,480 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 1: and stuff. Okay, bust one upright, putting the safety glasses on.

2036
01:57:54,920 --> 01:57:56,600
Speaker 1: I have to and hopefully I won't lose a finger,

2037
01:57:56,600 --> 01:58:01,360
Speaker 1: which I almost did once. I see a tap and

2038
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:03,640
Speaker 1: what do you tap? And just listen to the harmonics. Yeah,

2039
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:06,400
Speaker 1: so um, for a couple of reasons. One, if there's

2040
01:58:06,440 --> 01:58:08,320
Speaker 1: a dull thud, that'd mean there'd be some sort of

2041
01:58:08,320 --> 01:58:10,520
Speaker 1: crack in it. So if I mess up here, then

2042
01:58:10,640 --> 01:58:14,320
Speaker 1: it's my fault. It's you're you're testing the sound, testing

2043
01:58:14,320 --> 01:58:16,720
Speaker 1: the sound. You want that nice sort of like how

2044
01:58:16,760 --> 01:58:20,640
Speaker 1: do you choose your pounding stone? There? So this is

2045
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:23,440
Speaker 1: a sandstone and depending there's a lot that goes into

2046
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:25,480
Speaker 1: it in terms of the type of rock that you're

2047
01:58:25,480 --> 01:58:28,280
Speaker 1: flint napping. Also the size of your rock. You want

2048
01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:31,040
Speaker 1: to adjust your hammerstone to match it such that you

2049
01:58:31,080 --> 01:58:34,000
Speaker 1: can initiate a fracture but not actually push the rock

2050
01:58:34,080 --> 01:58:36,320
Speaker 1: out of your hand or out of your lap. Yeah,

2051
01:58:36,440 --> 01:58:39,400
Speaker 1: view that way. Your hammerstone probably ways a third or

2052
01:58:39,400 --> 01:58:42,280
Speaker 1: a quarter or what your piece of Yeah, probably something

2053
01:58:42,320 --> 01:58:47,320
Speaker 1: like that. So I am just one little hit, one

2054
01:58:47,320 --> 01:58:51,720
Speaker 1: little hit, beautiful, this nice flake and you can see those.

2055
01:58:51,760 --> 01:58:54,200
Speaker 1: So he did one hit and knocked off like a

2056
01:58:54,280 --> 01:58:57,839
Speaker 1: chocolate chip cookie off there. So now the first flakes

2057
01:58:57,880 --> 01:59:01,040
Speaker 1: that come off any nodule generally aren't that great because

2058
01:59:01,040 --> 01:59:04,000
Speaker 1: they've got that cortex, so they're not that sharp. Yeah,

2059
01:59:04,040 --> 01:59:06,680
Speaker 1: what's the other word for that stuff? It's called like,

2060
01:59:06,680 --> 01:59:11,680
Speaker 1: like in general, how they describe it, um patent a patina? Yeah,

2061
01:59:11,800 --> 01:59:14,280
Speaker 1: like is that not the right word? Well, patinas when

2062
01:59:14,320 --> 01:59:19,160
Speaker 1: it changes color, Well, we'll get even sharper patentations, Yeah,

2063
01:59:19,160 --> 01:59:21,920
Speaker 1: that's the coloration. Yeah, so no, we'll get some sharper one.

2064
01:59:21,960 --> 01:59:25,200
Speaker 1: I mean that comes off sharp though. All right now,

2065
01:59:25,240 --> 01:59:27,360
Speaker 1: these first ones, like I said, aren't so sharp because

2066
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:29,200
Speaker 1: of that cortex. But we're gonna get some real sharp

2067
01:59:29,240 --> 01:59:31,000
Speaker 1: ones here. And and what are you calling these pieces

2068
01:59:32,120 --> 01:59:36,720
Speaker 1: primary flakes? Yeah, and let me ask another question. You

2069
01:59:36,840 --> 01:59:39,880
Speaker 1: boys can look at this, and you can look at

2070
01:59:39,920 --> 01:59:43,600
Speaker 1: this and say that was broke off. That was broke

2071
01:59:43,680 --> 01:59:48,680
Speaker 1: off by a blow. Yes, that wasn't broke off by erosion. Correct, Yes, Yes,

2072
01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:52,880
Speaker 1: So conchoidal fracturing stone tools, especially when you start making

2073
01:59:53,200 --> 01:59:56,280
Speaker 1: more complex things, there's no mistaking them with with nature.

2074
01:59:56,680 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: It's not like a frost like like water got in

2075
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:06,880
Speaker 1: there and expand and no different. That's correct. So we're

2076
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:09,360
Speaker 1: getting that's a nice sharp An interesting thing about this

2077
02:00:09,480 --> 02:00:11,880
Speaker 1: if you're trying to visualize this at home, is when

2078
02:00:11,880 --> 02:00:15,040
Speaker 1: he lays the rock down and hits it. Uh, the

2079
02:00:15,080 --> 02:00:19,080
Speaker 1: piece he's blowing off isn't on top. He's blowing off

2080
02:00:19,120 --> 02:00:21,520
Speaker 1: a piece that is then left. He's doing this on

2081
02:00:21,560 --> 02:00:23,520
Speaker 1: his knee with a bunch of leather on his knee

2082
02:00:23,560 --> 02:00:26,320
Speaker 1: for padding, and he hits the top of the rock

2083
02:00:26,480 --> 02:00:29,000
Speaker 1: and it doesn't knock off the top. He hits the

2084
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:30,800
Speaker 1: top of the rock and it blows a hunk off

2085
02:00:30,920 --> 02:00:33,680
Speaker 1: the bottom, and that's where he's then left like laying

2086
02:00:33,680 --> 02:00:36,160
Speaker 1: on his lap. Right. And that's why flint napping can

2087
02:00:36,200 --> 02:00:38,360
Speaker 1: be so difficult is because you don't actually see the

2088
02:00:38,400 --> 02:00:40,800
Speaker 1: product that you're making, and it just takes years of

2089
02:00:40,800 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 1: experience to know that this product that you're not seeing

2090
02:00:44,600 --> 02:00:49,760
Speaker 1: is only created with certain variables that you do see. Um,

2091
02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:54,240
Speaker 1: So all right, that's pretty cool man. Now this is

2092
02:00:54,240 --> 02:00:58,760
Speaker 1: a really sharply Um, let's use this one though. Actually,

2093
02:00:58,840 --> 02:01:05,240
Speaker 1: let's cut some leather. Brought some extra pieces, so fresh

2094
02:01:05,280 --> 02:01:07,160
Speaker 1: off the rock, fresh off the rock, so this edge

2095
02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:10,600
Speaker 1: right here, go ahead and grab that, and yeah, this

2096
02:01:10,720 --> 02:01:14,280
Speaker 1: is some decent leather ship man, So just ahead and

2097
02:01:14,280 --> 02:01:23,320
Speaker 1: slice that. Well, yeah, there go slices, leader, man. So

2098
02:01:23,520 --> 02:01:27,080
Speaker 1: you can easily disarticulate an entire I mean, it's like

2099
02:01:27,720 --> 02:01:31,640
Speaker 1: when you run your thumb across it. It's uh, I

2100
02:01:31,640 --> 02:01:33,320
Speaker 1: mean it's like if you just did it to blind

2101
02:01:33,360 --> 02:01:35,080
Speaker 1: to someone he said, what's that, they'd be like, it's

2102
02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:37,320
Speaker 1: like a kitchen knife. Yeah, well, let's should we knock

2103
02:01:37,360 --> 02:01:41,880
Speaker 1: one off the obsidian? Let's see, man, that's I don't

2104
02:01:41,880 --> 02:01:43,840
Speaker 1: think you should mess that thing up. Man, do you

2105
02:01:43,880 --> 02:01:45,440
Speaker 1: got more of those? I've got more? You can knock

2106
02:01:45,480 --> 02:01:48,000
Speaker 1: off a couple here. That was too kind of nice.

2107
02:01:48,200 --> 02:01:50,080
Speaker 1: It's always funny when I travel with a bunch of

2108
02:01:50,160 --> 02:01:52,840
Speaker 1: rock um, because they always go through my two case

2109
02:01:52,880 --> 02:01:56,080
Speaker 1: and they're just like, what the hell is this? Weapons? Yeah?

2110
02:01:56,560 --> 02:02:02,240
Speaker 1: A stone? Weapons like Um, so what I'll do is

2111
02:02:02,280 --> 02:02:05,520
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna prepare a small striking platform on this.

2112
02:02:06,240 --> 02:02:09,839
Speaker 1: What's that mean? So the striking platform in flint napping

2113
02:02:09,920 --> 02:02:12,640
Speaker 1: is the spot that you're going to hit. Um, so

2114
02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:15,520
Speaker 1: you're knocking the sharp he's like dulling it. I'm dulling it.

2115
02:02:15,560 --> 02:02:18,000
Speaker 1: So basically I get a bigger bite when I strike

2116
02:02:18,720 --> 02:02:21,280
Speaker 1: huh the flake, and I'm grinding it as well, which

2117
02:02:21,280 --> 02:02:25,400
Speaker 1: adjusts the angle slightly. Um, there's all sorts of variables

2118
02:02:25,440 --> 02:02:27,280
Speaker 1: that go into flint napping. Now what am gonna do

2119
02:02:27,280 --> 02:02:28,760
Speaker 1: is I'm gonna do. I gotta tell you real quick

2120
02:02:28,800 --> 02:02:31,400
Speaker 1: that there's two things I've avoided in life is chest

2121
02:02:31,480 --> 02:02:35,480
Speaker 1: and flint napping because I got a glimpse into each

2122
02:02:35,520 --> 02:02:37,000
Speaker 1: of them and realized that I was never going to

2123
02:02:37,080 --> 02:02:38,800
Speaker 1: really figure it out, and so why I mess around?

2124
02:02:39,200 --> 02:02:41,960
Speaker 1: You know what, if you were able to and this

2125
02:02:42,040 --> 02:02:43,440
Speaker 1: goes for all you guys, if you want to come

2126
02:02:43,480 --> 02:02:45,640
Speaker 1: to the lab, I'll get you guys flint napping and

2127
02:02:46,080 --> 02:02:49,000
Speaker 1: day a day. Yeah, it just seemed like a deep

2128
02:02:49,080 --> 02:02:51,880
Speaker 1: dark hole you can go into. Man, Yeah, I mean

2129
02:02:51,920 --> 02:02:55,560
Speaker 1: it it becomes like so from my experience, right, so

2130
02:02:56,040 --> 02:02:59,720
Speaker 1: kind of like I've been flint napping for over twenty

2131
02:02:59,840 --> 02:03:04,040
Speaker 1: years years. Um. Two of those years I apprenticed one

2132
02:03:04,080 --> 02:03:06,280
Speaker 1: of the best flint nappers in the world. Um, a

2133
02:03:06,320 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 1: guy named Bruce Bradley. And during that two years I

2134
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:13,720
Speaker 1: flint napped ten hours a day every day. Yeah. Um.

2135
02:03:13,800 --> 02:03:16,600
Speaker 1: And then I apprentice another flint napper named Bob Patton,

2136
02:03:16,640 --> 02:03:19,440
Speaker 1: who's also one of the best in the world. And um,

2137
02:03:19,480 --> 02:03:22,440
Speaker 1: for again, just it's it's an apprenticeship. It's like anything.

2138
02:03:22,440 --> 02:03:24,560
Speaker 1: It just takes a long time. Will you explain your

2139
02:03:24,560 --> 02:03:28,280
Speaker 1: tool change? Yeah, so this is just antler, and antler

2140
02:03:28,320 --> 02:03:32,320
Speaker 1: allows you to strike different angles. Yeah, definitely. I got

2141
02:03:32,320 --> 02:03:35,800
Speaker 1: some bigger ones too. Here's a moose for larger flakes.

2142
02:03:35,960 --> 02:03:39,240
Speaker 1: Look at that, man, Yeah, so like imagine, um, I'll

2143
02:03:39,280 --> 02:03:43,680
Speaker 1: describe that call, yeah, an ice cream calling. It almost

2144
02:03:43,720 --> 02:03:48,400
Speaker 1: looks like the pedicle end of a moose. Antler. That's pretty.

2145
02:03:48,440 --> 02:03:52,400
Speaker 1: That's that's cool. Just like that. So, well, let me

2146
02:03:52,440 --> 02:03:54,640
Speaker 1: get slightly bigger one here, just because if you're gonna

2147
02:03:54,640 --> 02:03:56,800
Speaker 1: be holding it, I don't want you to lose a

2148
02:03:56,840 --> 02:04:00,560
Speaker 1: finger like I almost did. Now there's great quote here

2149
02:04:00,560 --> 02:04:02,640
Speaker 1: already where he's like, be careful with that gets sharp

2150
02:04:02,680 --> 02:04:05,720
Speaker 1: to the microbial level. Well, you know, it's funny. There's

2151
02:04:05,920 --> 02:04:09,400
Speaker 1: uh it does. It gets sharp to the molecule, molecule

2152
02:04:09,560 --> 02:04:12,400
Speaker 1: molecular and I'm gonna explain my knives to like two

2153
02:04:12,400 --> 02:04:16,120
Speaker 1: people after like that from now on. Yeah, we would

2154
02:04:16,120 --> 02:04:20,480
Speaker 1: see a molecule on the end. Now, Um, they're so sharp,

2155
02:04:21,120 --> 02:04:22,800
Speaker 1: you might be like, well, why how come surgeons don't

2156
02:04:22,840 --> 02:04:27,080
Speaker 1: use them? Surgeons don't like obsidian because it's so sharp

2157
02:04:27,160 --> 02:04:29,760
Speaker 1: that they can't feel the different layers of skin. It's

2158
02:04:29,760 --> 02:04:33,680
Speaker 1: because it just goes right through. There's no resistance, whereas

2159
02:04:33,680 --> 02:04:36,200
Speaker 1: with steel they have just that slight little bit of resistance.

2160
02:04:36,760 --> 02:04:38,960
Speaker 1: Um that allows them to sort of feel where they are.

2161
02:04:39,600 --> 02:04:43,360
Speaker 1: Now here, Now is that a true story? Someone in

2162
02:04:43,400 --> 02:04:47,640
Speaker 1: the flint napping community. Actually, I can see Brody through it.

2163
02:04:48,160 --> 02:04:53,800
Speaker 1: Have a surgeon performance surgery with obsidian tools on on themselves.

2164
02:04:53,880 --> 02:04:57,040
Speaker 1: So Don Crabtree was a flint napper in the nineteen

2165
02:04:57,080 --> 02:05:00,760
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, it seems like driver. Yeah, and he

2166
02:05:00,880 --> 02:05:06,080
Speaker 1: made his own Uh. Okay, we're taking the piece of

2167
02:05:06,080 --> 02:05:07,520
Speaker 1: the city in which I said, like you can look

2168
02:05:07,560 --> 02:05:13,560
Speaker 1: through it, cut at your buddy, not your body. Oh yeah,

2169
02:05:13,560 --> 02:05:19,840
Speaker 1: I look at that man right through. Oh so this

2170
02:05:19,880 --> 02:05:22,960
Speaker 1: stuff works. Um, oh ship that sharp. Check that out.

2171
02:05:27,000 --> 02:05:28,560
Speaker 1: But like that won't go through a man with I

2172
02:05:28,600 --> 02:05:31,120
Speaker 1: don't know what will. Well, it went through my pinky

2173
02:05:31,200 --> 02:05:34,200
Speaker 1: finger and they had to restitch everything back together. I

2174
02:05:34,240 --> 02:05:36,120
Speaker 1: saw my own bone. You never if you can get

2175
02:05:36,120 --> 02:05:39,160
Speaker 1: through life and not see your own bone, that's a win.

2176
02:05:39,760 --> 02:05:42,680
Speaker 1: So I've lost that one certainly. Just don't want to

2177
02:05:43,000 --> 02:05:48,640
Speaker 1: yourself and trusted there. Yeah, he jumped back to don crabtree.

2178
02:05:49,560 --> 02:05:52,880
Speaker 1: He made a citian blades for his own surgery that

2179
02:05:52,960 --> 02:05:57,600
Speaker 1: the doctor used. Um, so that's that's pretty cool just

2180
02:05:57,640 --> 02:05:59,680
Speaker 1: as an experiment. Well, no, well he had to have

2181
02:05:59,680 --> 02:06:01,680
Speaker 1: a curtain. He didn't. It wasn't like an optional surgery,

2182
02:06:01,720 --> 02:06:03,240
Speaker 1: but I mean like he wanted to do that to

2183
02:06:03,240 --> 02:06:05,960
Speaker 1: see how it would work. Yes, yeah, and it worked

2184
02:06:06,800 --> 02:06:10,200
Speaker 1: is amazing. So when you can get edges this sharp

2185
02:06:10,600 --> 02:06:13,000
Speaker 1: just from nature, like you can see why this is

2186
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:16,400
Speaker 1: such a useful thing for for ancient people. But how

2187
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:20,600
Speaker 1: can you take that like that rock is it looks

2188
02:06:20,640 --> 02:06:27,400
Speaker 1: like black glass? Yes, it's beautiful and obviously real sharp. Um,

2189
02:06:27,480 --> 02:06:31,480
Speaker 1: there has been huge chunks of the continent where you're

2190
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:33,920
Speaker 1: not gonna have anything like that. I mean you could

2191
02:06:33,960 --> 02:06:36,720
Speaker 1: walk around for months and not seeing anything laying around

2192
02:06:36,760 --> 02:06:40,040
Speaker 1: like that. What's amazing is there's church and flint outcrops

2193
02:06:40,080 --> 02:06:43,560
Speaker 1: across North America. So now you'll only get certain types

2194
02:06:44,040 --> 02:06:46,480
Speaker 1: of rock in certain areas. So like you'll get upsidian

2195
02:06:46,520 --> 02:06:49,840
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest, but you know, we'll get church

2196
02:06:49,920 --> 02:06:53,720
Speaker 1: in Ohio and in Kentucky and New England and the southeast.

2197
02:06:53,760 --> 02:06:56,120
Speaker 1: And when you can't use church or obsidian, you can

2198
02:06:56,200 --> 02:07:00,600
Speaker 1: use court sites. Um, there's there's nappable rock all across

2199
02:07:00,640 --> 02:07:03,760
Speaker 1: the continent. So you don't find areas where they had

2200
02:07:03,760 --> 02:07:06,280
Speaker 1: to use something totally different because they just had nothing

2201
02:07:06,280 --> 02:07:09,800
Speaker 1: that would work on this continent. They all had some version. Yeah,

2202
02:07:09,840 --> 02:07:14,720
Speaker 1: and we get nappable rock around the world. I mean

2203
02:07:14,840 --> 02:07:18,320
Speaker 1: every paleotic culture for the last three million years was

2204
02:07:18,360 --> 02:07:21,960
Speaker 1: able to make stuff, find some kind of something. Yeah. Um,

2205
02:07:22,000 --> 02:07:23,800
Speaker 1: all right, so you got your knock off what do

2206
02:07:23,800 --> 02:07:25,640
Speaker 1: you call that piece? Though? Any of those pieces you

2207
02:07:25,680 --> 02:07:27,080
Speaker 1: got in front of you that you took off of

2208
02:07:27,080 --> 02:07:31,000
Speaker 1: the big one just flakes. I mean I can turn

2209
02:07:31,040 --> 02:07:34,720
Speaker 1: these into Loyero heads. Show me a flake that you'd

2210
02:07:34,720 --> 02:07:36,560
Speaker 1: be like kay now and make me a Clovis point

2211
02:07:36,560 --> 02:07:39,480
Speaker 1: from it. So I probably get a slightly larger one

2212
02:07:39,600 --> 02:07:42,160
Speaker 1: let me do that real quick. So I'm gonna I'm

2213
02:07:42,160 --> 02:07:45,040
Speaker 1: gonna get a platform here and I'm gonna strike off

2214
02:07:45,080 --> 02:07:53,160
Speaker 1: a really large flake. You're gonna doule the face. So okay,

2215
02:07:55,240 --> 02:07:58,280
Speaker 1: when you get your giant busting rock ready, actually probably

2216
02:07:58,280 --> 02:08:00,880
Speaker 1: you're actually braiding it now to dull it up. Yes, yeah,

2217
02:08:01,000 --> 02:08:03,920
Speaker 1: and so you're smoothing it out. It's also slightly adjusting

2218
02:08:03,960 --> 02:08:08,960
Speaker 1: the angle of the platform I'm about to hit. And

2219
02:08:08,960 --> 02:08:11,200
Speaker 1: then I'm also gonna probably strike this with the moose antler.

2220
02:08:13,360 --> 02:08:15,480
Speaker 1: So you feel like, right right now, you kind of

2221
02:08:15,520 --> 02:08:18,080
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen. I know exactly what's gonna happen.

2222
02:08:18,600 --> 02:08:21,720
Speaker 1: Tell me what's gonna happen. Let's prove it. So I

2223
02:08:21,760 --> 02:08:26,400
Speaker 1: am going to turn this rock over. I'm gonna support it.

2224
02:08:26,560 --> 02:08:30,080
Speaker 1: So you just you you took the edge off, sit

2225
02:08:30,160 --> 02:08:32,400
Speaker 1: kind of sanded it down at the angle you want,

2226
02:08:32,840 --> 02:08:34,400
Speaker 1: and now you're going to hit it with a giant

2227
02:08:34,480 --> 02:08:37,160
Speaker 1: hunkle moose antler. What is going to happen? There should

2228
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:39,680
Speaker 1: be a flake that comes off that will be a

2229
02:08:39,800 --> 02:08:43,840
Speaker 1: nice decent sized flight. So you're going to put money

2230
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:48,120
Speaker 1: on it. Chester Okay, just says five bucks. You can't

2231
02:08:48,160 --> 02:08:54,880
Speaker 1: do it so not as big. Hold on one second,

2232
02:08:55,040 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 1: let me just how many chances you No, no, that

2233
02:09:00,240 --> 02:09:08,040
Speaker 1: one was my fault. There's nothing wrong with this rock. No, no,

2234
02:09:08,160 --> 02:09:11,080
Speaker 1: sometimes the platform crumbles. That happens. That that was the

2235
02:09:11,080 --> 02:09:13,560
Speaker 1: platform crumbling. That was a platform crumbling because I did

2236
02:09:13,600 --> 02:09:16,960
Speaker 1: not strengthen it enough. So here you go. So how

2237
02:09:17,000 --> 02:09:19,960
Speaker 1: much of this is like prescriptive versus like interpretive, Like

2238
02:09:20,040 --> 02:09:22,360
Speaker 1: does somebody take a piece of rock and go, I'm

2239
02:09:22,400 --> 02:09:24,680
Speaker 1: going to make this now or do they go, oh,

2240
02:09:24,920 --> 02:09:27,200
Speaker 1: this happened. I could make this, or I could make this,

2241
02:09:27,320 --> 02:09:30,240
Speaker 1: or I might make this. No, like I could sit

2242
02:09:30,240 --> 02:09:32,600
Speaker 1: here and make a Clovis point from this rock, Like

2243
02:09:32,760 --> 02:09:35,400
Speaker 1: so I yeah, that's what I would. Yeah, but I'm saying,

2244
02:09:35,400 --> 02:09:38,720
Speaker 1: like when when somebody knocks off little like char makes

2245
02:09:38,760 --> 02:09:43,240
Speaker 1: maraheads too. Oh no, no, um, everything is intentional. So

2246
02:09:43,280 --> 02:09:45,120
Speaker 1: it's not just you busted all the pieces and see

2247
02:09:45,120 --> 02:09:47,120
Speaker 1: what you got. No, no, no, you have to do

2248
02:09:47,200 --> 02:09:56,240
Speaker 1: something specific to get something exactly exactly. Sorry, there we go.

2249
02:09:57,280 --> 02:10:00,960
Speaker 1: Oh so that was what he said was gonna happen. Yeah,

2250
02:10:00,960 --> 02:10:05,360
Speaker 1: that's what you would happened the first time. But that's okay. Yeah,

2251
02:10:05,360 --> 02:10:09,280
Speaker 1: we still got enough. If you don't like it. Hit

2252
02:10:09,320 --> 02:10:10,960
Speaker 1: another one, I believe you now? Oh yeah, no, no no

2253
02:10:11,040 --> 02:10:12,760
Speaker 1: that sorry, I can keep going like this one. I

2254
02:10:12,800 --> 02:10:16,240
Speaker 1: brought ones that I could sort of finish like this

2255
02:10:16,240 --> 02:10:18,200
Speaker 1: one that was pretty good, but like a fella could

2256
02:10:18,240 --> 02:10:20,680
Speaker 1: make a close point. Yes, yeah, definitely, because Clovis points

2257
02:10:20,680 --> 02:10:25,840
Speaker 1: can get small too. Um, that's for baby man. Do

2258
02:10:25,880 --> 02:10:29,920
Speaker 1: you think they did Do you think they did any

2259
02:10:30,000 --> 02:10:32,320
Speaker 1: kind of maintenance on a point, Like would they apply

2260
02:10:32,440 --> 02:10:35,560
Speaker 1: some mineral oil to it, or wash them or put

2261
02:10:35,600 --> 02:10:42,320
Speaker 1: some dust on them? Um? Why just because they were big?

2262
02:10:42,640 --> 02:10:46,080
Speaker 1: Because they were big into ochre so okre. When we

2263
02:10:46,120 --> 02:10:50,840
Speaker 1: get ochre found on Clovis artifacts, what I suspect is

2264
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:53,320
Speaker 1: happening is that they're not like doing a ritual or

2265
02:10:53,400 --> 02:10:56,800
Speaker 1: they sprinkled the ochre on the artifact. I actually think

2266
02:10:56,800 --> 02:11:00,080
Speaker 1: what they've done is they've waterproofed the leather bag that

2267
02:11:00,120 --> 02:11:04,320
Speaker 1: the Clovis point was in in ochre. That wasn't those

2268
02:11:04,560 --> 02:11:07,600
Speaker 1: wasn't there like some ocre involved with that anzik one site? Yeah?

2269
02:11:07,640 --> 02:11:09,800
Speaker 1: And we have a um what looks like to be

2270
02:11:09,840 --> 02:11:12,000
Speaker 1: a Clovis cash and ohio that we just published, and

2271
02:11:12,000 --> 02:11:13,920
Speaker 1: there was ochre on those pieces too. You think of

2272
02:11:14,000 --> 02:11:16,160
Speaker 1: their sack I think there was a sack that they

2273
02:11:16,160 --> 02:11:18,480
Speaker 1: were all put in when they were buried. Now that

2274
02:11:18,560 --> 02:11:21,680
Speaker 1: disintegrated over the last thirteen thousand years and the ochres

2275
02:11:21,800 --> 02:11:24,080
Speaker 1: left on the stone tools that were in the bag.

2276
02:11:25,400 --> 02:11:30,520
Speaker 1: So that's why I think was happening. But I could

2277
02:11:30,560 --> 02:11:33,440
Speaker 1: be wrong. I've been wrong before. Now what are you doing?

2278
02:11:33,680 --> 02:11:35,920
Speaker 1: So right now, I'm isolating this platform to get a

2279
02:11:35,960 --> 02:11:38,280
Speaker 1: much bigger bite on this flake that I'm about to

2280
02:11:38,280 --> 02:11:41,200
Speaker 1: take off. And what I'm gonna do too is just

2281
02:11:41,360 --> 02:11:45,560
Speaker 1: adjust the angle slightly. Dude, what would you given to

2282
02:11:45,560 --> 02:11:48,000
Speaker 1: sit around naps some flint with the Clovis Dudes? Man,

2283
02:11:48,240 --> 02:11:49,840
Speaker 1: do you think you'd be able to? Like? Do you

2284
02:11:49,840 --> 02:11:51,760
Speaker 1: think you'd be better they were? Do you think they'd

2285
02:11:51,760 --> 02:11:54,680
Speaker 1: smoke you? There is no modern flint napper that would

2286
02:11:54,720 --> 02:11:57,440
Speaker 1: ever approach what a prehistoric napper could have done with

2287
02:11:57,480 --> 02:11:59,120
Speaker 1: their skill because they weren't brought up with it, not

2288
02:11:59,200 --> 02:12:01,000
Speaker 1: brought up with it. And also to like, when you

2289
02:12:01,240 --> 02:12:04,400
Speaker 1: when your life depends on on a tool or a weapon,

2290
02:12:04,840 --> 02:12:09,040
Speaker 1: like you just understand it inherent intimate level that someone

2291
02:12:09,080 --> 02:12:12,040
Speaker 1: who isn't dependent on it just can't. So there's lots

2292
02:12:12,040 --> 02:12:14,960
Speaker 1: of foot nappers. The compound interest of it every like

2293
02:12:15,040 --> 02:12:20,160
Speaker 1: literally every ancestor you've ever had had always done it,

2294
02:12:20,760 --> 02:12:22,560
Speaker 1: and from the time you were a day old, it

2295
02:12:22,640 --> 02:12:25,160
Speaker 1: was happening around you. And and so there's modern flint

2296
02:12:25,240 --> 02:12:27,600
Speaker 1: nappers today, because there's quite a few hobby flint nappers.

2297
02:12:27,640 --> 02:12:29,840
Speaker 1: I think there's probably, I don't know, anywhere from eight

2298
02:12:29,840 --> 02:12:34,280
Speaker 1: to ten in North America. They say they think sometimes

2299
02:12:34,280 --> 02:12:39,080
Speaker 1: that they're better than ancient folks. Yeah, they're not right.

2300
02:12:39,120 --> 02:12:42,360
Speaker 1: They're not because because what they'll make a really pretty

2301
02:12:42,400 --> 02:12:44,400
Speaker 1: point and they'll compare it to Clovis ones and they'll

2302
02:12:44,400 --> 02:12:46,160
Speaker 1: be like, oh, look, my flaking is better than this

2303
02:12:46,200 --> 02:12:48,960
Speaker 1: Clovis point. Well, look, the Clovis person did not give

2304
02:12:49,000 --> 02:12:51,320
Speaker 1: a crap about how their point look. They wanted it

2305
02:12:51,360 --> 02:12:54,120
Speaker 1: to function. If they had wanted to make a pretty point,

2306
02:12:54,160 --> 02:12:59,360
Speaker 1: they would smoke any modern napper. Um so alright, so

2307
02:12:59,400 --> 02:13:06,560
Speaker 1: let's strike another really large flake. Cuff here, got his

2308
02:13:06,600 --> 02:13:16,880
Speaker 1: moose antler moose, Sorry, the tables, he's cocking back, microphone,

2309
02:13:18,000 --> 02:13:21,320
Speaker 1: by the go ahead. There's speed napping competitions, like like

2310
02:13:21,360 --> 02:13:24,520
Speaker 1: sitting down and make clothes point as fast as you can. Yeah,

2311
02:13:24,560 --> 02:13:30,560
Speaker 1: there are speed competitions. There are these things called nappins no, no, yeah, no,

2312
02:13:30,680 --> 02:13:34,240
Speaker 1: nappers get together across the continent and getting they sell

2313
02:13:34,400 --> 02:13:37,840
Speaker 1: and make stuff and yeah they're like little craft certain things.

2314
02:13:37,880 --> 02:13:40,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, napins are fun. Yeah, take away the k

2315
02:13:40,920 --> 02:13:44,720
Speaker 1: and I'd be down for that one. A. Are there

2316
02:13:44,720 --> 02:13:49,960
Speaker 1: examples of like ornamental points being found ornamental? Yeah? How

2317
02:13:50,000 --> 02:13:52,400
Speaker 1: do you know? So there are, because they'd be like

2318
02:13:52,440 --> 02:13:56,720
Speaker 1: a quality that wouldn't be utilitarian. Oh, I got you. Um,

2319
02:13:56,800 --> 02:13:59,120
Speaker 1: so we get Clovis points, may have quartz, crystal got

2320
02:13:59,160 --> 02:14:01,160
Speaker 1: this one. All these ones are flake, they're big, but

2321
02:14:01,200 --> 02:14:05,960
Speaker 1: they're snapping. Um, we get courtch crystal, Clovis points, um,

2322
02:14:06,000 --> 02:14:08,520
Speaker 1: which as far as I know, don't seem to have

2323
02:14:08,560 --> 02:14:11,839
Speaker 1: been used. So that could be some sort of ornamental

2324
02:14:11,920 --> 02:14:15,960
Speaker 1: or symbolic thing. Um. Some people think that the flute

2325
02:14:15,960 --> 02:14:19,440
Speaker 1: themselves are symbolic because it's so hard to do without

2326
02:14:19,480 --> 02:14:22,520
Speaker 1: breaking the point that it was some good omen for

2327
02:14:22,560 --> 02:14:25,720
Speaker 1: the hunt to come that if you successfully point. Yeah,

2328
02:14:25,760 --> 02:14:27,880
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just saying, this is the ideas out

2329
02:14:27,920 --> 02:14:31,760
Speaker 1: there after Yeah, that's that's what happens, you know, So

2330
02:14:32,000 --> 02:14:35,040
Speaker 1: who knows, but we'll never know, that's right. Yeah. Yeah,

2331
02:14:35,200 --> 02:14:37,680
Speaker 1: And it's it's fun to have ideas. So you could

2332
02:14:37,720 --> 02:14:40,720
Speaker 1: take these flakes, right, so we've got a nice size one.

2333
02:14:41,120 --> 02:14:46,800
Speaker 1: Compare it to you know, something that's midway. So you

2334
02:14:46,840 --> 02:14:50,000
Speaker 1: think this could potentially be living in here? Yes, yeah,

2335
02:14:50,120 --> 02:14:52,360
Speaker 1: I got a question for you. So you're using a

2336
02:14:52,520 --> 02:14:55,280
Speaker 1: rock to knock off a piece of that rock, You're

2337
02:14:55,320 --> 02:15:00,640
Speaker 1: using an antler to knock it off. Why why wouldn't

2338
02:15:00,640 --> 02:15:04,800
Speaker 1: you use like a modern metal hammer or some tool

2339
02:15:04,880 --> 02:15:06,720
Speaker 1: like that. Well, because he's trying to figure out how

2340
02:15:06,800 --> 02:15:08,640
Speaker 1: dudes used to do it. No, I'm saying, like, I'm

2341
02:15:08,680 --> 02:15:12,120
Speaker 1: asking what would happen? Basically, what are the reasons for

2342
02:15:12,240 --> 02:15:15,920
Speaker 1: not doing that? You could use like a copper bopper,

2343
02:15:16,240 --> 02:15:18,840
Speaker 1: which is what they're called copper boppers. That's what we

2344
02:15:18,920 --> 02:15:21,960
Speaker 1: call them. Nappins. Yeah, Nappins and Boppers. That's a good

2345
02:15:21,960 --> 02:15:25,720
Speaker 1: title for the show, Nappins and Boppers, remember that. It's Yeah,

2346
02:15:25,800 --> 02:15:32,120
Speaker 1: that's gonna be my podcast. I have my lawyer send over.

2347
02:15:34,520 --> 02:15:38,200
Speaker 1: But sometimes you do want to use modern tools if

2348
02:15:38,840 --> 02:15:42,320
Speaker 1: the question that you're testing isn't involved in the production

2349
02:15:42,360 --> 02:15:44,960
Speaker 1: of those tools. But if we're interested in sort of

2350
02:15:45,000 --> 02:15:47,920
Speaker 1: how quickly or how economic you can make a close point,

2351
02:15:48,560 --> 02:15:51,080
Speaker 1: you wouldn't want to use modern tools to answer that question.

2352
02:15:51,200 --> 02:15:54,880
Speaker 1: So you could use modern tools to flake, and people do.

2353
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:57,160
Speaker 1: But let me with this one dated to Brody's question.

2354
02:15:57,200 --> 02:16:01,760
Speaker 1: If I said, you make me a the Clovis point

2355
02:16:01,760 --> 02:16:03,440
Speaker 1: as fast as you could possibly do it, and you

2356
02:16:03,440 --> 02:16:08,440
Speaker 1: can use whatever you want, um, would you be like,

2357
02:16:08,440 --> 02:16:12,560
Speaker 1: oh sweet, I'm gonna use my No, I would still

2358
02:16:12,640 --> 02:16:15,880
Speaker 1: use handler because as I rarely ever use modern tools,

2359
02:16:16,080 --> 02:16:19,440
Speaker 1: so I would probably suck with modern But you're never

2360
02:16:19,440 --> 02:16:20,880
Speaker 1: sitting around and being like, you know what would be

2361
02:16:20,880 --> 02:16:25,960
Speaker 1: great for this is aluminum. We got some aluminum points

2362
02:16:26,040 --> 02:16:30,800
Speaker 1: right there, so because aluminum weirdly has the same density

2363
02:16:30,840 --> 02:16:32,959
Speaker 1: as churt. That's just I wouldn't even know that that

2364
02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:36,400
Speaker 1: is aluminum. Its aluminum. I mean I would, I would.

2365
02:16:36,560 --> 02:16:39,480
Speaker 1: I thought you had painted. I thought you had painted

2366
02:16:39,520 --> 02:16:42,760
Speaker 1: some No, so this is a Clovis point I did

2367
02:16:42,760 --> 02:16:47,400
Speaker 1: out of chirt. This is that same Clovis point made

2368
02:16:47,400 --> 02:16:50,760
Speaker 1: out of aluminium or cast in aluminium, and it breaks

2369
02:16:50,760 --> 02:16:53,400
Speaker 1: the same way. No, I mean it'll bust like on

2370
02:16:53,480 --> 02:16:58,560
Speaker 1: an impact. Better on impact, oh much better on impact? Yeah,

2371
02:16:58,640 --> 02:17:02,160
Speaker 1: much better. But the advantage of aluminum for certain experimental

2372
02:17:02,200 --> 02:17:05,160
Speaker 1: tests as it doesn't break so even because it has

2373
02:17:05,160 --> 02:17:08,000
Speaker 1: the same density, like it has the same ballistics once

2374
02:17:08,000 --> 02:17:10,920
Speaker 1: it's in the air, um, and so so you can

2375
02:17:10,920 --> 02:17:14,520
Speaker 1: test other stuff break. Yeah, it's a pan the butt

2376
02:17:14,520 --> 02:17:16,960
Speaker 1: to keep making. Is that cast off that you took

2377
02:17:16,959 --> 02:17:19,600
Speaker 1: the stone and made a cast and cast? Yeah, I

2378
02:17:19,720 --> 02:17:22,160
Speaker 1: met My wife does a lot of thrift ng. Yeah.

2379
02:17:23,600 --> 02:17:25,840
Speaker 1: She'll go to like an estate sale and then come

2380
02:17:25,840 --> 02:17:29,560
Speaker 1: home with stuff that I don't want. And it feels

2381
02:17:29,560 --> 02:17:35,440
Speaker 1: like every single estate sale has arrowheads for sale. Is

2382
02:17:35,440 --> 02:17:37,800
Speaker 1: there any way like for the layman to look at

2383
02:17:37,840 --> 02:17:39,760
Speaker 1: something like that and identify if it was created by

2384
02:17:39,800 --> 02:17:45,879
Speaker 1: someone like you or someone five thousand years ago? Yes, yeah, definitely.

2385
02:17:45,959 --> 02:17:50,800
Speaker 1: So if there are little chips sort of you can

2386
02:17:50,800 --> 02:17:53,080
Speaker 1: see that there's this chip is still on there, it's

2387
02:17:53,080 --> 02:17:55,600
Speaker 1: just a flake that didn't come off all the way.

2388
02:17:55,760 --> 02:17:59,440
Speaker 1: That's from modern napping. Those little chips, while they occurred

2389
02:17:59,440 --> 02:18:04,720
Speaker 1: in the past, come off after ten thousand years or something. Um.

2390
02:18:04,800 --> 02:18:06,520
Speaker 1: So if you see those little chips, you know that's

2391
02:18:06,560 --> 02:18:10,320
Speaker 1: modern around the edge, around the edge. Um. Now, there

2392
02:18:10,320 --> 02:18:13,240
Speaker 1: are ways to get rid of those chips. And because

2393
02:18:13,240 --> 02:18:16,840
Speaker 1: there's been some cases of people, you know, being less

2394
02:18:16,840 --> 02:18:20,920
Speaker 1: than honest with the famous there's a guy that duped

2395
02:18:20,920 --> 02:18:23,120
Speaker 1: everybody at a bunch of Clovis points. His name was

2396
02:18:23,160 --> 02:18:27,520
Speaker 1: Woody something would he Blackwell duped a bunch of dupe

2397
02:18:27,560 --> 02:18:30,480
Speaker 1: some museums and shipped on Clovis points. Right. Well, he

2398
02:18:31,360 --> 02:18:36,920
Speaker 1: sold a group of of Clovis tools that he said

2399
02:18:36,959 --> 02:18:40,039
Speaker 1: was a Clovis cash. Um and this is all published

2400
02:18:40,040 --> 02:18:44,520
Speaker 1: in the New Yorker magazine. Um to uh collector nimforest

2401
02:18:44,600 --> 02:18:47,440
Speaker 1: fan and oh, I don't know the fan was involved

2402
02:18:47,480 --> 02:18:50,600
Speaker 1: in this cover him extent. That's like, that's like Spencer's

2403
02:18:50,600 --> 02:18:54,920
Speaker 1: best friend treasure. Did you find the treasure? But it

2404
02:18:55,000 --> 02:18:58,160
Speaker 1: was like sixty miles from here there you go? So

2405
02:18:58,440 --> 02:19:02,440
Speaker 1: what do he try to sell artifacts that he made

2406
02:19:02,640 --> 02:19:05,200
Speaker 1: as genuine Clovis artifacts of force? Fan? I think it

2407
02:19:05,280 --> 02:19:11,560
Speaker 1: was like dollars and um, the transaction went through and

2408
02:19:11,840 --> 02:19:16,720
Speaker 1: uh it was then discovered that these were modern replicas.

2409
02:19:17,000 --> 02:19:18,600
Speaker 1: How they figured out, Well, you know how he got

2410
02:19:18,640 --> 02:19:21,520
Speaker 1: around the you know how he got around the loose

2411
02:19:21,520 --> 02:19:26,440
Speaker 1: flake thing a rock tumbler really and you know how

2412
02:19:26,440 --> 02:19:29,800
Speaker 1: he got duped? Check how do you know the story

2413
02:19:29,840 --> 02:19:34,320
Speaker 1: better than me? Well he used Brazilian stone um as

2414
02:19:34,600 --> 02:19:38,520
Speaker 1: I'm sorry now how he got how he got uncovered? Yeah,

2415
02:19:38,560 --> 02:19:40,480
Speaker 1: so one of the Clovis points or maybe two of

2416
02:19:40,520 --> 02:19:45,199
Speaker 1: them were made from stone from Brazil, and uh, that stone,

2417
02:19:45,240 --> 02:19:47,360
Speaker 1: I guess only shines a certain way when you have

2418
02:19:47,400 --> 02:19:50,039
Speaker 1: a UV light over it, and so that like Clovis,

2419
02:19:50,120 --> 02:19:53,440
Speaker 1: folks in North America weren't using stone from Brazil. But

2420
02:19:53,520 --> 02:19:55,480
Speaker 1: I heard another part of yeah, there could be other

2421
02:19:56,600 --> 02:19:58,520
Speaker 1: One of the parts of the story is someone had

2422
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:01,760
Speaker 1: a chemical analysis done on the point and they found

2423
02:20:01,879 --> 02:20:05,680
Speaker 1: some crazy coding material on it. Yeah, So then they

2424
02:20:05,680 --> 02:20:07,760
Speaker 1: were able to find out what the coding material was,

2425
02:20:07,959 --> 02:20:10,400
Speaker 1: went to the manufacture. Who does he sell the coding

2426
02:20:10,440 --> 02:20:13,640
Speaker 1: material to? One of his clients are the people to

2427
02:20:13,720 --> 02:20:17,119
Speaker 1: make rock tumblers? Yeah, And then it led to saying

2428
02:20:17,120 --> 02:20:19,600
Speaker 1: that he was because he's trying to create this like

2429
02:20:19,959 --> 02:20:23,760
Speaker 1: ten thousand years of laying around. Look, and do you

2430
02:20:23,800 --> 02:20:27,920
Speaker 1: know the collector Tony Baker? You ever hear him? I Tony,

2431
02:20:28,040 --> 02:20:32,000
Speaker 1: I stayed at his house. He's well, we probably did

2432
02:20:32,480 --> 02:20:37,120
Speaker 1: my owning. Yeah, no ship. Yeah, Tony, it was a

2433
02:20:37,200 --> 02:20:40,280
Speaker 1: huge loss when he passed. I guarantee he slept in

2434
02:20:40,280 --> 02:20:44,280
Speaker 1: the same gustro many times. He told me a story

2435
02:20:44,280 --> 02:20:47,080
Speaker 1: where he was at in the state sale and saw

2436
02:20:47,200 --> 02:20:50,600
Speaker 1: a fulsome point Bolo tie. Did you hear the story? No,

2437
02:20:50,680 --> 02:20:52,720
Speaker 1: I have not heard this thing. He said, that's real.

2438
02:20:53,879 --> 02:20:56,520
Speaker 1: Bought the bolo tie for a couple of bucks, took

2439
02:20:56,520 --> 02:20:58,640
Speaker 1: the stone off, and on the back of the stone

2440
02:20:58,879 --> 02:21:00,360
Speaker 1: was you know how they put like why it out

2441
02:21:00,720 --> 02:21:03,160
Speaker 1: and in a label. Yeah, it was a museum like

2442
02:21:03,360 --> 02:21:05,959
Speaker 1: it was missing from your museum and he found the museum. Yeah,

2443
02:21:06,080 --> 02:21:09,280
Speaker 1: that's awesome. It was a museum collection piece that gone

2444
02:21:09,320 --> 02:21:11,560
Speaker 1: missing and someone put it on a Bolo tipe, you know,

2445
02:21:13,560 --> 02:21:18,120
Speaker 1: and hiding in plain sight. He said, one look and

2446
02:21:18,160 --> 02:21:19,959
Speaker 1: he just knew. He's like, just something about it. He's like,

2447
02:21:20,240 --> 02:21:22,879
Speaker 1: because that's the real point. Yeah, no, that's it. And

2448
02:21:23,360 --> 02:21:25,360
Speaker 1: one other way to get those little chips off, not

2449
02:21:25,480 --> 02:21:29,200
Speaker 1: that I'm condoning fraud in any way, is you can

2450
02:21:29,240 --> 02:21:33,080
Speaker 1: put the napped point in water and then put it

2451
02:21:33,080 --> 02:21:36,040
Speaker 1: in the freezer and then when the ice gets under

2452
02:21:36,040 --> 02:21:39,160
Speaker 1: that little chip, it pops it off and then you know,

2453
02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:42,039
Speaker 1: so those chips are going to be around the outer edge.

2454
02:21:42,200 --> 02:21:45,920
Speaker 1: You're saying, um, well, if the flake gets driven across

2455
02:21:45,959 --> 02:21:47,520
Speaker 1: the face of your tool, you might get him in

2456
02:21:47,560 --> 02:21:49,640
Speaker 1: the middle too. But either way you can get him

2457
02:21:49,680 --> 02:21:51,160
Speaker 1: off if you know what you're doing it. But it

2458
02:21:51,200 --> 02:21:54,280
Speaker 1: has it'll look fresh it'll look fresh. And I have

2459
02:21:54,360 --> 02:21:56,879
Speaker 1: never found anything of significance in the field. I would

2460
02:21:56,879 --> 02:21:59,720
Speaker 1: just like to say that. So because that's a danger

2461
02:21:59,760 --> 02:22:02,440
Speaker 1: for me, because well, because I can make this stuff right,

2462
02:22:03,000 --> 02:22:06,240
Speaker 1: and so I always have to be careful that, you know,

2463
02:22:06,280 --> 02:22:09,800
Speaker 1: anything I make doesn't end up in the archaeological record.

2464
02:22:10,920 --> 02:22:14,720
Speaker 1: And so UM, when I make pieces, I always signed

2465
02:22:14,760 --> 02:22:19,080
Speaker 1: them with a diamondscribe. UM. So if anyone ever does

2466
02:22:19,160 --> 02:22:22,320
Speaker 1: microscopic analysis on it, um, you'll see my initials in

2467
02:22:22,360 --> 02:22:26,120
Speaker 1: the year on the piece. Um, so they never get

2468
02:22:26,120 --> 02:22:32,120
Speaker 1: mixed up. So okay, speaking of which, Um, you know,

2469
02:22:32,200 --> 02:22:34,080
Speaker 1: before I came, I did a little research. I saw

2470
02:22:34,120 --> 02:22:36,360
Speaker 1: you have a birthday coming up, so I thought I

2471
02:22:36,360 --> 02:22:39,600
Speaker 1: would make that little birthday gift. Um. So you can

2472
02:22:41,600 --> 02:22:50,160
Speaker 1: just unroll it a little careful, oh man, explain what

2473
02:22:50,160 --> 02:22:52,360
Speaker 1: we're looking at here. So this is a type of

2474
02:22:52,440 --> 02:22:55,640
Speaker 1: knife called a salutary and laurel leaf. And and this

2475
02:22:55,760 --> 02:22:58,800
Speaker 1: is probably one of the most difficult things to do

2476
02:22:58,959 --> 02:23:02,360
Speaker 1: in three million years of napping. Um. They're super thin.

2477
02:23:03,120 --> 02:23:06,680
Speaker 1: The flaking is really described as is very bold. You

2478
02:23:06,720 --> 02:23:09,879
Speaker 1: see all the flakes are really large. And uh, this

2479
02:23:09,920 --> 02:23:12,200
Speaker 1: was a style of of knife for point that was

2480
02:23:12,240 --> 02:23:15,760
Speaker 1: made about eighteen to twenty one thousand years ago in

2481
02:23:15,800 --> 02:23:19,200
Speaker 1: Europe yep. And it's thought to be the pinnacle of

2482
02:23:19,360 --> 02:23:23,879
Speaker 1: stone tool working and so even cooler than it depends.

2483
02:23:23,959 --> 02:23:26,400
Speaker 1: It's just who you ask. But they're pretty cool, so

2484
02:23:26,440 --> 02:23:30,879
Speaker 1: I thought happy, But yeah, not at all. It's gorgeous.

2485
02:23:31,280 --> 02:23:34,280
Speaker 1: So are you gonna call the salutary and laurel leaf?

2486
02:23:35,840 --> 02:23:37,760
Speaker 1: And it's signed. So if I see on saw the bees,

2487
02:23:40,720 --> 02:23:45,280
Speaker 1: that's right. Where's where is it signed? So it's signed.

2488
02:23:45,560 --> 02:23:49,240
Speaker 1: You have to look at it just right. But um

2489
02:23:49,320 --> 02:23:53,560
Speaker 1: on this flake scar, there's m i e in around this.

2490
02:23:53,600 --> 02:23:58,200
Speaker 1: One could steve like a Christmas hamd with that thing.

2491
02:23:58,680 --> 02:24:02,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's gonna be her yeah, or mammoth. It's

2492
02:24:02,720 --> 02:24:04,400
Speaker 1: gonna be here with it. Yeah. No, I don't want

2493
02:24:04,400 --> 02:24:08,480
Speaker 1: to mess it up and drop it. I still don't

2494
02:24:08,520 --> 02:24:11,560
Speaker 1: see it. We may need direct life. But so you

2495
02:24:11,600 --> 02:24:13,480
Speaker 1: do it really fine? Yes, I do it fine, so

2496
02:24:13,520 --> 02:24:16,000
Speaker 1: it doesn't sort of detract from but it's in there.

2497
02:24:16,080 --> 02:24:19,680
Speaker 1: It's in there. Okay, thank you. Man's gorgeous. Tell me

2498
02:24:19,720 --> 02:24:22,760
Speaker 1: against slutree and what leaf laureally because it's the shape

2499
02:24:22,760 --> 02:24:28,240
Speaker 1: of laurel. Yeah, now I just stab that the brody.

2500
02:24:29,600 --> 02:24:32,880
Speaker 1: It did work. Well, so that's the thing I was

2501
02:24:32,920 --> 02:24:35,120
Speaker 1: so nervous bringing because I made one for Current too,

2502
02:24:35,120 --> 02:24:37,640
Speaker 1: because she's done so much work like getting everything set

2503
02:24:37,720 --> 02:24:41,360
Speaker 1: and um, she has a Clovis one. Um. And so

2504
02:24:41,480 --> 02:24:47,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask this for Steve is KREM's nicer. Well,

2505
02:24:47,120 --> 02:24:53,400
Speaker 1: they're different cultures. This is this is hafted onto Antler

2506
02:24:54,080 --> 02:24:58,199
Speaker 1: like a split fork. Um. You can imagine like stab

2507
02:24:58,200 --> 02:25:00,960
Speaker 1: Broughty between the ribs, turn around and give Larry Cohen Merlein,

2508
02:25:02,080 --> 02:25:06,600
Speaker 1: Larry Moan curly with those ant guy in front of

2509
02:25:06,640 --> 02:25:11,040
Speaker 1: you with the he'd be like he'd bleed to death blind. Yeah,

2510
02:25:11,720 --> 02:25:18,680
Speaker 1: just just him. I mean, already pinned filler. All right,

2511
02:25:18,760 --> 02:25:22,240
Speaker 1: let's let's progress along. Let's get to the magic part.

2512
02:25:22,400 --> 02:25:25,920
Speaker 1: Yeah alright, Well I want to see you do the

2513
02:25:25,959 --> 02:25:31,320
Speaker 1: thing that has baffled anthropologists about why did they knock

2514
02:25:31,760 --> 02:25:34,480
Speaker 1: the thing when there's a twenty five chance just going

2515
02:25:34,520 --> 02:25:36,440
Speaker 1: to ruin the whole different thing. So you've already done

2516
02:25:36,480 --> 02:25:38,920
Speaker 1: all the work. Yes, I brought several because the other

2517
02:25:38,959 --> 02:25:40,720
Speaker 1: thing too about flint napping is you want to bring

2518
02:25:40,760 --> 02:25:42,800
Speaker 1: backups because if you break it, you can quick just

2519
02:25:42,840 --> 02:25:45,440
Speaker 1: like pull out another one. You'll get to go. So

2520
02:25:45,720 --> 02:25:48,000
Speaker 1: we've got, you know, different stages, and I've got one

2521
02:25:48,040 --> 02:25:50,360
Speaker 1: that's basically ready to flute. So I do need to

2522
02:25:50,360 --> 02:25:52,200
Speaker 1: do a little bit of preparation on this thing to

2523
02:25:52,520 --> 02:25:56,959
Speaker 1: get what's called the fluting nipple. Yeah, that's a good

2524
02:25:56,959 --> 02:25:59,120
Speaker 1: title for the show, the Fluting Nipple. That's gonna be

2525
02:25:59,160 --> 02:26:03,400
Speaker 1: my second podcast. Um. But so they'll just take a

2526
02:26:03,440 --> 02:26:05,680
Speaker 1: second to get this going. But what's this thing they

2527
02:26:05,720 --> 02:26:11,280
Speaker 1: talk about. Clay had some guy talking about that they

2528
02:26:11,280 --> 02:26:18,920
Speaker 1: may be used lever no evidence for that, but it's

2529
02:26:18,920 --> 02:26:21,200
Speaker 1: just reverse engineered or whatever you call it. They're like

2530
02:26:21,320 --> 02:26:24,680
Speaker 1: it would work. So there's a Flinton napper, Bob Patton

2531
02:26:24,680 --> 02:26:27,640
Speaker 1: who I mentioned earlier, who you can he could make

2532
02:26:28,040 --> 02:26:30,200
Speaker 1: Clovis points and Fulsom points and sort of do them

2533
02:26:30,240 --> 02:26:33,320
Speaker 1: the way I do and just hit him directly. You

2534
02:26:33,360 --> 02:26:37,080
Speaker 1: don't need a lever um. So you're not buying it. No,

2535
02:26:37,120 --> 02:26:39,960
Speaker 1: I'm not buying it. Okay, So you got your clos

2536
02:26:40,000 --> 02:26:42,600
Speaker 1: point and it's pretty well like a clous point, except

2537
02:26:42,600 --> 02:26:47,920
Speaker 1: for it's missing the diagnostic fluke channel. Flukes that run

2538
02:26:48,040 --> 02:26:53,080
Speaker 1: the length the con the concave channels that will run

2539
02:26:53,120 --> 02:26:55,320
Speaker 1: the length of the point and give it its signature.

2540
02:26:55,480 --> 02:26:59,800
Speaker 1: Look it's significance and then not only that, but diagnostic

2541
02:27:00,200 --> 02:27:03,240
Speaker 1: like no one else made them like that. Um, that's

2542
02:27:03,280 --> 02:27:09,120
Speaker 1: also untrue. So who else is making them so amazingly

2543
02:27:09,280 --> 02:27:13,960
Speaker 1: in the Saudi Arabian Neolithic? Okay, local folks, oh, no,

2544
02:27:15,360 --> 02:27:19,560
Speaker 1: go on, But the Saudi Arabian Neolithic they are making

2545
02:27:19,600 --> 02:27:22,880
Speaker 1: and fluting points. So just in the same way that

2546
02:27:23,040 --> 02:27:26,200
Speaker 1: like birds and bats and insects all can fly. But

2547
02:27:26,240 --> 02:27:28,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean they're all causes. They're not because this

2548
02:27:28,320 --> 02:27:31,800
Speaker 1: convergent evolution. Same thing in stone tool technology. Uh, you

2549
02:27:31,840 --> 02:27:34,520
Speaker 1: can get convergent evolution really like they arrive at the

2550
02:27:34,560 --> 02:27:38,400
Speaker 1: same the same solution. Um. Alright, So what I'm gonna

2551
02:27:38,400 --> 02:27:40,039
Speaker 1: do now is I'm actually gonna start to pressure flake

2552
02:27:40,080 --> 02:27:41,800
Speaker 1: this a little bit now. Before you do, I want

2553
02:27:41,800 --> 02:27:44,320
Speaker 1: to ask you a couple of things. Yeah, how long

2554
02:27:44,480 --> 02:27:49,680
Speaker 1: were you at this before you tried this? Probably seven

2555
02:27:49,760 --> 02:27:53,480
Speaker 1: or eight years before you tried knocking out, before you

2556
02:27:53,520 --> 02:27:56,360
Speaker 1: tried fluting a point? Yes? Yeah? And is it easier

2557
02:27:57,440 --> 02:28:00,200
Speaker 1: to flute a Clovis point than a Folesome point or

2558
02:28:00,200 --> 02:28:03,080
Speaker 1: is it the same? Hard there is different because the

2559
02:28:03,120 --> 02:28:05,879
Speaker 1: falsome point runs all the way to the end. It

2560
02:28:05,920 --> 02:28:07,879
Speaker 1: does run a presumably got to do some more work

2561
02:28:07,920 --> 02:28:10,040
Speaker 1: on it afterwards. Right, Well, so there's a there's two

2562
02:28:10,120 --> 02:28:14,200
Speaker 1: issues there. Um. With fulsome, you in some ways have

2563
02:28:14,200 --> 02:28:16,480
Speaker 1: a better chance of success because you're doing a lot

2564
02:28:16,480 --> 02:28:21,400
Speaker 1: more preparation ahead of time to get that long flute. Um.

2565
02:28:21,440 --> 02:28:24,320
Speaker 1: The other issue is because falsome points are shorter, you

2566
02:28:24,320 --> 02:28:27,400
Speaker 1: don't have as much bending um in the point, which

2567
02:28:27,440 --> 02:28:30,800
Speaker 1: could break it. Now. Fulsome points are really hard to flute.

2568
02:28:30,800 --> 02:28:32,920
Speaker 1: So just like clos, you make one of those, Um,

2569
02:28:33,000 --> 02:28:37,360
Speaker 1: I've got one here we can see, and you knock

2570
02:28:37,440 --> 02:28:39,760
Speaker 1: those out. I knocked those out. That's beautiful, man. The

2571
02:28:39,760 --> 02:28:42,120
Speaker 1: problem with falsom those it takes more time, like a

2572
02:28:42,200 --> 02:28:47,520
Speaker 1: lot more time. That's a beautiful point. Way more time, yeah,

2573
02:28:47,520 --> 02:28:52,400
Speaker 1: because it's you're doing so much preparation to basically create

2574
02:28:52,480 --> 02:28:55,240
Speaker 1: a morphology on the point so you can get those

2575
02:28:55,280 --> 02:28:57,640
Speaker 1: long channels. It just takes a much longer. And you

2576
02:28:57,640 --> 02:28:59,480
Speaker 1: know how you should talk close about how they weren't

2577
02:28:59,520 --> 02:29:02,240
Speaker 1: mammoth on. Yeah, these guys are bison hunters. They are

2578
02:29:02,280 --> 02:29:05,880
Speaker 1: definitely bison hunters. And Clovis were bison hunters too. Yeah,

2579
02:29:06,160 --> 02:29:09,360
Speaker 1: So and that's the thing. We just going back to

2580
02:29:09,400 --> 02:29:14,800
Speaker 1: the Clovis hunting. We get statistically more impact scars with

2581
02:29:14,879 --> 02:29:19,039
Speaker 1: Clovis points associated with bison than we do with mammoth.

2582
02:29:19,800 --> 02:29:21,960
Speaker 1: And the reason for that is because they are hunting

2583
02:29:21,959 --> 02:29:26,960
Speaker 1: bison and not hunting mammoth. So all right, let me

2584
02:29:27,040 --> 02:29:31,000
Speaker 1: just that's a beautiful point. Man. Okay, you're back at

2585
02:29:31,040 --> 02:29:35,440
Speaker 1: the now. There you got you got like not an

2586
02:29:35,440 --> 02:29:39,800
Speaker 1: early man tool. So while it depends so not Clovis

2587
02:29:39,879 --> 02:29:43,520
Speaker 1: is man off copper, we actually get the earliest metal

2588
02:29:43,560 --> 02:29:46,400
Speaker 1: tools anywhere in the world in North America from the

2589
02:29:46,400 --> 02:29:49,680
Speaker 1: Great Lakes. Yeah, exactly. It's called the Old Copper culture

2590
02:29:49,720 --> 02:29:53,080
Speaker 1: and earlier. Um. Now, I could use an antler time

2591
02:29:53,160 --> 02:29:55,960
Speaker 1: to do this, but you have to constantly re sharpen

2592
02:29:56,000 --> 02:29:59,640
Speaker 1: antler times pressure blakings. It's just easier. So where's the time?

2593
02:29:59,720 --> 02:30:03,160
Speaker 1: Do it'll wear the antler time down? Yes? Yeah, And

2594
02:30:03,160 --> 02:30:05,320
Speaker 1: so you just gotta keep getting it the right shape,

2595
02:30:05,360 --> 02:30:08,400
Speaker 1: so you're shaping the stone and the tool. Yeah, the butt,

2596
02:30:08,879 --> 02:30:11,200
Speaker 1: I'm with you. You have to get this fluting nipple,

2597
02:30:11,320 --> 02:30:15,560
Speaker 1: just the right shape fluting nipples, because when it's all prepared,

2598
02:30:15,600 --> 02:30:16,880
Speaker 1: you'll look at it. I don't know if it looks

2599
02:30:16,879 --> 02:30:22,520
Speaker 1: like a nipple, but that's what they call it just

2600
02:30:22,600 --> 02:30:25,240
Speaker 1: that motion alone is just really interesting. I mean you're

2601
02:30:25,280 --> 02:30:27,560
Speaker 1: just kind of like pressing down on the edges. Well.

2602
02:30:27,560 --> 02:30:31,119
Speaker 1: Pressure flaking, unlike percussion, which is what I was doing earlier,

2603
02:30:31,240 --> 02:30:33,879
Speaker 1: does take a little bit of strength, especially if you're

2604
02:30:33,959 --> 02:30:38,400
Speaker 1: driving flakes um across the face of whatever piece you're

2605
02:30:39,360 --> 02:30:41,800
Speaker 1: flint napping. So I'm gonna drive a few pieces off

2606
02:30:41,920 --> 02:30:48,640
Speaker 1: right now. You're gonna not do pressure, but you're gonna

2607
02:30:48,680 --> 02:30:50,600
Speaker 1: do some striking. No, no, I'm going to do pressure

2608
02:30:50,920 --> 02:30:53,080
Speaker 1: um where I'm gonna really just push these things far

2609
02:30:53,160 --> 02:30:58,560
Speaker 1: across the face. So really it's all on the legs now. Oh,

2610
02:30:58,879 --> 02:31:01,920
Speaker 1: Like you're getting your hand hour by Like basically you're

2611
02:31:01,959 --> 02:31:07,080
Speaker 1: like Suzanne Summer's net thigh mass right now. I don't

2612
02:31:07,080 --> 02:31:11,400
Speaker 1: know if I should be as old a references comes

2613
02:31:11,440 --> 02:31:15,320
Speaker 1: in the eighties or earlier. So you're like pressing on

2614
02:31:15,360 --> 02:31:21,520
Speaker 1: the top side of that it's breaking off, its breaking

2615
02:31:21,560 --> 02:31:24,640
Speaker 1: off the bottom side that more time. Sorry, I'm too

2616
02:31:24,640 --> 02:31:29,280
Speaker 1: busy thinking Susanne the Summer's thighs, I don't know. So

2617
02:31:29,280 --> 02:31:33,040
Speaker 1: so you're just basically pressing on like the top side

2618
02:31:33,080 --> 02:31:35,640
Speaker 1: and it's busting off the bottoms. Yeah, So what I'm doing, Yeah,

2619
02:31:35,640 --> 02:31:39,680
Speaker 1: I'm pushing on the edge and basically I'm pulling the

2620
02:31:39,720 --> 02:31:43,520
Speaker 1: flake and then but your strength coming like you're like

2621
02:31:43,840 --> 02:31:46,280
Speaker 1: pitching it between your legs just to drive your hands together.

2622
02:31:46,360 --> 02:31:49,480
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So so a lot of pressure, a

2623
02:31:49,480 --> 02:31:53,560
Speaker 1: lot of pressure. So let's see here we do any

2624
02:31:53,560 --> 02:31:58,360
Speaker 1: of those nappins and in bloodshed always they get the

2625
02:31:58,440 --> 02:32:01,879
Speaker 1: drinking at those. Yeah, I mean like there are some

2626
02:32:01,959 --> 02:32:06,200
Speaker 1: tear We actually just uh finished the survey where we

2627
02:32:06,280 --> 02:32:11,720
Speaker 1: surveyed flint napper injuries from around the world, and they're

2628
02:32:11,840 --> 02:32:15,640
Speaker 1: real bad. I mean, people are getting cuts on every

2629
02:32:15,640 --> 02:32:18,280
Speaker 1: parther body. People are using hitting moose bullets in and

2630
02:32:18,320 --> 02:32:22,840
Speaker 1: their nuts like it's get any for moral artery. Uh,

2631
02:32:23,040 --> 02:32:25,560
Speaker 1: I can see messing around some between your legs and

2632
02:32:25,640 --> 02:32:30,119
Speaker 1: sharp things. People getting flakes in their eyes. Yeah, so

2633
02:32:30,200 --> 02:32:33,680
Speaker 1: we're gonna we're doing the statistical analysis now to look

2634
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:36,720
Speaker 1: at patterns and and where people are hurting themselves the most,

2635
02:32:36,760 --> 02:32:40,080
Speaker 1: and so all right, hold on, Yeah, you might be

2636
02:32:40,080 --> 02:32:44,080
Speaker 1: able to come up with something that relates back to

2637
02:32:44,240 --> 02:32:46,360
Speaker 1: early man would be like, you know the reason that

2638
02:32:46,400 --> 02:32:49,600
Speaker 1: they were like this was I read this thing. I

2639
02:32:49,600 --> 02:32:54,520
Speaker 1: can't remember what book it was. The guy was talking about, Um,

2640
02:32:54,600 --> 02:32:59,480
Speaker 1: the injury sweets that they would see on neander Thal bones,

2641
02:33:00,640 --> 02:33:03,279
Speaker 1: and this guy became curious about the suites of injuries

2642
02:33:03,280 --> 02:33:08,240
Speaker 1: they would see on them, all the fractures and oh that.

2643
02:33:08,400 --> 02:33:12,000
Speaker 1: And he got to talking to a physician who works

2644
02:33:12,000 --> 02:33:18,120
Speaker 1: on bull riders and they found this, like, uh, like

2645
02:33:18,160 --> 02:33:21,720
Speaker 1: a direct correlation between the the types of bone fractures

2646
02:33:21,720 --> 02:33:24,680
Speaker 1: on the hander dolls and the types of bron fractures

2647
02:33:24,720 --> 02:33:27,760
Speaker 1: on bull riders. And he came up with this idea

2648
02:33:27,800 --> 02:33:30,080
Speaker 1: that they had what he had described as a confrontational

2649
02:33:30,120 --> 02:33:33,320
Speaker 1: style of hunting, like that they're in there mixing it up.

2650
02:33:33,360 --> 02:33:36,680
Speaker 1: You know, maybe they took one shot with something and

2651
02:33:36,680 --> 02:33:39,320
Speaker 1: then jumped and then jumped right in. Okay, I'm gonna

2652
02:33:39,360 --> 02:33:41,360
Speaker 1: jab a little bit with this stone point and everybody's

2653
02:33:41,400 --> 02:33:47,640
Speaker 1: gonna pilot. I'm gonna get him pissed with this stone

2654
02:33:47,680 --> 02:33:52,400
Speaker 1: point his game. Remember, we don't want him to move

2655
02:33:52,440 --> 02:33:55,560
Speaker 1: too much. So lots of hemorrhoids too, because the bull

2656
02:33:55,640 --> 02:33:59,880
Speaker 1: riders got those. Yeah yeah, all that hem roidal tries

2657
02:34:00,000 --> 02:34:04,320
Speaker 1: tissue in decays over the years. Man. Alright, so we're

2658
02:34:04,360 --> 02:34:06,520
Speaker 1: almost there to flute this thing. And what's that nipple

2659
02:34:06,560 --> 02:34:09,240
Speaker 1: called again? The fluting nipple. I should be able to

2660
02:34:09,240 --> 02:34:12,280
Speaker 1: remember that. All right, So now this flute probably will

2661
02:34:12,320 --> 02:34:15,119
Speaker 1: go to about there because you have to knock out

2662
02:34:15,160 --> 02:34:18,920
Speaker 1: two flutes, so that you're just prepared the first flute,

2663
02:34:19,000 --> 02:34:21,560
Speaker 1: or you've you've prepared both flutes. No, no no, this is

2664
02:34:21,560 --> 02:34:23,119
Speaker 1: the first one. Okay, So then you're gonna go back

2665
02:34:23,160 --> 02:34:26,040
Speaker 1: to the drawboard and prepared and do another nipple exactly.

2666
02:34:26,080 --> 02:34:29,240
Speaker 1: And is your nipples specific to the face you're working on? Yes, okay,

2667
02:34:29,600 --> 02:34:34,200
Speaker 1: so you've nippled it for the what right now? Is

2668
02:34:34,240 --> 02:34:36,960
Speaker 1: the top or bottom when it's laying on your legs?

2669
02:34:37,320 --> 02:34:40,080
Speaker 1: It will be for like the flute is gonna be

2670
02:34:40,160 --> 02:34:42,039
Speaker 1: left laying on your leg is gonna blast off into

2671
02:34:42,040 --> 02:34:43,680
Speaker 1: the air. The flute will come off my leg or

2672
02:34:43,840 --> 02:34:47,760
Speaker 1: be against left one. Okay, you all right tell me

2673
02:34:47,760 --> 02:34:49,440
Speaker 1: before you do it. Yes, I will. And just because

2674
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:51,840
Speaker 1: it's a bit always risky, I just want to make

2675
02:34:51,879 --> 02:34:57,840
Speaker 1: sure it's right now. What, Um, there's a high likelihood

2676
02:34:57,840 --> 02:35:02,960
Speaker 1: this will fail. Um could be it's like but I mean,

2677
02:35:03,160 --> 02:35:05,280
Speaker 1: my I haven't messed up in a while, so I

2678
02:35:05,280 --> 02:35:08,440
Speaker 1: probably just screwed myself by saying that. Um. But which

2679
02:35:08,440 --> 02:35:15,160
Speaker 1: is why I always bring extras. Failure success failure. So

2680
02:35:16,240 --> 02:35:19,000
Speaker 1: the failure you mean that whole thing just breaks. Yes,

2681
02:35:19,040 --> 02:35:23,400
Speaker 1: the whole thing will just shatter. If it doesn't break,

2682
02:35:23,400 --> 02:35:28,600
Speaker 1: you can happen either way. Are you doing it right now? No? No, no,

2683
02:35:28,680 --> 02:35:32,039
Speaker 1: I mean that you always strike off the flute here.

2684
02:35:32,040 --> 02:35:33,960
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to get the angle a little bit.

2685
02:35:34,959 --> 02:35:37,400
Speaker 1: There we go. That's much better. I could definitely see

2686
02:35:37,400 --> 02:35:39,760
Speaker 1: how you'd cut yourself pretty good. Mess around with the stuff.

2687
02:35:39,800 --> 02:35:42,320
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, it can be real bad. So could

2688
02:35:42,360 --> 02:35:45,840
Speaker 1: you I'm sure you've thought about this many many times.

2689
02:35:45,840 --> 02:35:49,039
Speaker 1: Could you describe, like, what do you think the situation

2690
02:35:50,000 --> 02:35:57,080
Speaker 1: this is happening in back in like Clovis times and

2691
02:35:57,120 --> 02:36:02,039
Speaker 1: I found a juncture he's getting out. Are you in

2692
02:36:02,040 --> 02:36:07,880
Speaker 1: a relaxed situation like sitting on a knob looking over her? Well,

2693
02:36:07,920 --> 02:36:09,720
Speaker 1: you wouldn't be. I don't think you'd be making these

2694
02:36:10,120 --> 02:36:13,320
Speaker 1: like in the moment. Well, the Maze site, the MASA

2695
02:36:13,440 --> 02:36:16,320
Speaker 1: site that we we had some people on top of

2696
02:36:16,360 --> 02:36:18,120
Speaker 1: the Mace site and the ma site they think is

2697
02:36:18,120 --> 02:36:22,280
Speaker 1: a flint nap and hang out hundreds like a little

2698
02:36:22,320 --> 02:36:26,600
Speaker 1: maze top. No sign of campgrounds, like, no signs of

2699
02:36:26,640 --> 02:36:30,920
Speaker 1: tent rings. It was a little lookout perch, hundreds and

2700
02:36:31,000 --> 02:36:34,360
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of points, thousands of flakes? Were you

2701
02:36:34,400 --> 02:36:37,320
Speaker 1: there with? I was at that site with okay now

2702
02:36:37,320 --> 02:36:41,320
Speaker 1: with my okay um because Boss Meltzer I think was

2703
02:36:41,400 --> 02:36:44,480
Speaker 1: up there too. But their theory there is it was

2704
02:36:44,520 --> 02:36:46,800
Speaker 1: you could sit up there and double dip because it's

2705
02:36:46,800 --> 02:36:49,360
Speaker 1: a lookout. But they're like, it just seems like people

2706
02:36:49,400 --> 02:36:51,320
Speaker 1: sat up there in nap flint. It was like too

2707
02:36:51,320 --> 02:36:53,800
Speaker 1: far from water or something. Again, you had to walk

2708
02:36:53,920 --> 02:36:56,360
Speaker 1: up on this high little lookout, and they think it

2709
02:36:56,440 --> 02:37:00,520
Speaker 1: was like the boys up there shooting the ship, napping

2710
02:37:01,040 --> 02:37:03,080
Speaker 1: waiting to see if something comes through. It was a

2711
02:37:03,160 --> 02:37:07,440
Speaker 1: nap in. Yeah, that's right, the first one, well, early

2712
02:37:07,840 --> 02:37:11,600
Speaker 1: early napping. Yeah, right, you're ready to go. I'm going

2713
02:37:11,640 --> 02:37:12,959
Speaker 1: to get ready to go for it. I've never done

2714
02:37:13,000 --> 02:37:15,120
Speaker 1: it with wires and stuff. Can you do a drum roll?

2715
02:37:16,280 --> 02:37:21,039
Speaker 1: You can? Oh yeah, take that thing off. You're really

2716
02:37:21,040 --> 02:37:23,520
Speaker 1: getting hung up in there. Man. It looks so unclosed,

2717
02:37:23,560 --> 02:37:26,200
Speaker 1: like they have that headphone on the headset on. Alright,

2718
02:37:26,320 --> 02:37:29,400
Speaker 1: So oh tell me what you can do before you

2719
02:37:29,440 --> 02:37:31,760
Speaker 1: do it. So what I'm gonna do is you have

2720
02:37:31,800 --> 02:37:33,200
Speaker 1: to when you flute it, you have to hold it

2721
02:37:33,240 --> 02:37:37,119
Speaker 1: a different way because you want to basically drive the

2722
02:37:37,120 --> 02:37:41,240
Speaker 1: flute off but cause as little bending as possible. So

2723
02:37:41,280 --> 02:37:43,040
Speaker 1: if I was to hit the flute off just straight

2724
02:37:43,040 --> 02:37:47,160
Speaker 1: down with the point flat, that would basically cause this

2725
02:37:47,240 --> 02:37:50,680
Speaker 1: thing to snap. Now, by holding the point vertically, I'm

2726
02:37:50,720 --> 02:37:54,720
Speaker 1: hitting straight down along the length of the point, which

2727
02:37:54,720 --> 02:37:58,200
Speaker 1: doesn't cause as much sort of bending. You gotta wrapped

2728
02:37:58,240 --> 02:38:00,320
Speaker 1: in there obviously, so you don't just get ask your

2729
02:38:00,360 --> 02:38:03,360
Speaker 1: hand to bits. Yeah, because it's just a it's like

2730
02:38:03,480 --> 02:38:05,840
Speaker 1: grip and protection. If that happens. Though, it's a shame

2731
02:38:05,879 --> 02:38:07,960
Speaker 1: that this is a podcast, like because my demos for

2732
02:38:08,040 --> 02:38:10,000
Speaker 1: my classes and stuff, that's all they're waiting for me

2733
02:38:10,160 --> 02:38:13,560
Speaker 1: to hurt myself. Um and so see, I'm just I'm

2734
02:38:13,640 --> 02:38:15,480
Speaker 1: cheering for you right now. Man, I want this will

2735
02:38:15,480 --> 02:38:18,360
Speaker 1: be the first time I've ever seen a flute as

2736
02:38:18,440 --> 02:38:20,360
Speaker 1: much as I've talked about. Oh god, no, I feel

2737
02:38:20,520 --> 02:38:26,720
Speaker 1: like there's pressure. I don't want a positive vibes. Okay,

2738
02:38:26,720 --> 02:38:28,480
Speaker 1: he's getting ready to hit his fluting nipple with a

2739
02:38:28,520 --> 02:38:30,480
Speaker 1: moose and elk candlery moose. You know, I don't know

2740
02:38:30,480 --> 02:38:35,879
Speaker 1: what the hell this is. It's that's how you're gonna

2741
02:38:35,879 --> 02:38:38,000
Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, So and I do a few practice

2742
02:38:38,400 --> 02:38:47,360
Speaker 1: swinging that like he's got a black jack and no

2743
02:38:47,640 --> 02:38:55,440
Speaker 1: ship really perfect, Look at that. That was badass, man.

2744
02:38:57,400 --> 02:38:59,600
Speaker 1: So you do all those practice runs basically a line

2745
02:38:59,640 --> 02:39:02,959
Speaker 1: everything hang up, um, and then you just you just

2746
02:39:03,760 --> 02:39:06,280
Speaker 1: sort of just tap it so I can do the

2747
02:39:06,320 --> 02:39:08,920
Speaker 1: other one now the other side and wrist breaking it again.

2748
02:39:09,640 --> 02:39:14,360
Speaker 1: You can just picture up on the maze site like, yeah, well,

2749
02:39:14,400 --> 02:39:18,040
Speaker 1: you know it's funny. Dave Meltzer, right, who's been on

2750
02:39:18,080 --> 02:39:21,640
Speaker 1: this August show. He worked at a site as a

2751
02:39:21,680 --> 02:39:27,000
Speaker 1: teenager called Thunderbird in Virginia. And at Thunderbird it was

2752
02:39:27,600 --> 02:39:30,840
Speaker 1: next to a river and they were making close points.

2753
02:39:30,879 --> 02:39:36,480
Speaker 1: Now the river gently flooded and basically covered and buried

2754
02:39:36,520 --> 02:39:39,480
Speaker 1: everything perfectly at this Thunderbird site, so much so that

2755
02:39:39,520 --> 02:39:41,400
Speaker 1: you can like kind of see where people were sitting

2756
02:39:41,400 --> 02:39:44,480
Speaker 1: with the rocks around them. Yeah. Now, at one of

2757
02:39:44,520 --> 02:39:48,240
Speaker 1: the spots where someone was sitting, you find the base

2758
02:39:48,320 --> 02:39:54,160
Speaker 1: of a Clovis point and the tip it's thirty away. Basically,

2759
02:39:54,200 --> 02:40:00,800
Speaker 1: someone got piste. They broke their clothes point and shucked it. Um. Yeah,

2760
02:40:01,400 --> 02:40:03,960
Speaker 1: weren't they able to somewhere like at Lindenmeyer something they

2761
02:40:03,959 --> 02:40:08,160
Speaker 1: were able to match some of the channel flakes. Oh yeah, man,

2762
02:40:08,280 --> 02:40:10,120
Speaker 1: all right, so I guess I'll I'll do the other

2763
02:40:10,160 --> 02:40:13,280
Speaker 1: one now, Okay, the second one is gonna be harder

2764
02:40:13,320 --> 02:40:16,160
Speaker 1: because it's thinner. No it is, yeah, so more pressure.

2765
02:40:16,920 --> 02:40:18,160
Speaker 1: It needs to be a different kind of like a

2766
02:40:18,160 --> 02:40:20,640
Speaker 1: better drum roll. Do they ever do a double drum roll?

2767
02:40:20,680 --> 02:40:25,520
Speaker 1: Two people doing it? One thing too, is I'm gonna

2768
02:40:25,520 --> 02:40:27,480
Speaker 1: have to do a little bit more work builds right

2769
02:40:27,520 --> 02:40:30,959
Speaker 1: like one guy starts, another drummer comes in. I'll have

2770
02:40:31,000 --> 02:40:32,520
Speaker 1: to do just a little bit more work because this

2771
02:40:32,560 --> 02:40:35,560
Speaker 1: is a little flat and when it's when it's flat,

2772
02:40:35,640 --> 02:40:37,440
Speaker 1: the flakes don't go as far. So what I'm gonna

2773
02:40:37,440 --> 02:40:39,600
Speaker 1: do is I'm gonna drive flakes off and basically try

2774
02:40:39,640 --> 02:40:45,320
Speaker 1: to create a little convexity, little a little hump. Oh

2775
02:40:45,400 --> 02:40:48,840
Speaker 1: this is a deep, dark, well flinting nat man. Well,

2776
02:40:48,879 --> 02:40:51,640
Speaker 1: I think this is the thing, right, is all this

2777
02:40:51,840 --> 02:40:54,480
Speaker 1: making the technology is really great? But what where the

2778
02:40:54,480 --> 02:40:56,640
Speaker 1: big breakthroughs have come since we founded the labb At

2779
02:40:56,720 --> 02:40:59,960
Speaker 1: Kent State is figuring out how this stuff was used

2780
02:41:00,720 --> 02:41:03,279
Speaker 1: and more and more we need to start like getting

2781
02:41:03,320 --> 02:41:07,520
Speaker 1: this stuff out into situations where hunters are using it

2782
02:41:07,640 --> 02:41:11,280
Speaker 1: and so we can understand the science behind That's how

2783
02:41:11,320 --> 02:41:17,480
Speaker 1: this works because it's different like have people use stuff

2784
02:41:17,680 --> 02:41:22,879
Speaker 1: you've made to kill deer for example. No, So everything

2785
02:41:22,879 --> 02:41:25,240
Speaker 1: we've done has been in the lab. So what we

2786
02:41:25,320 --> 02:41:28,440
Speaker 1: really need now is to balance those very controlled lab

2787
02:41:28,480 --> 02:41:33,520
Speaker 1: experiments with the reality of actual hunting. So, and this

2788
02:41:33,560 --> 02:41:37,120
Speaker 1: goes back to the mammoth as as well. So what

2789
02:41:37,200 --> 02:41:38,840
Speaker 1: we would love to do, and if you guys are

2790
02:41:38,920 --> 02:41:42,160
Speaker 1: game and we can somehow get access to it, is

2791
02:41:42,520 --> 02:41:45,160
Speaker 1: when an elephant dies, either at a zoo or if

2792
02:41:45,160 --> 02:41:49,360
Speaker 1: there's some cul somewhere, um, I will make all of

2793
02:41:49,360 --> 02:41:52,360
Speaker 1: the Clovis weapons and tools and we could hurl them

2794
02:41:52,440 --> 02:41:55,680
Speaker 1: into that dead elephant to see how well they penetrate.

2795
02:41:55,879 --> 02:41:59,960
Speaker 1: And you'll get someone to volunteer that up on the career.

2796
02:42:00,600 --> 02:42:03,160
Speaker 1: And so but if we could, if we could, potendially,

2797
02:42:03,160 --> 02:42:07,040
Speaker 1: we would learn scientifically so much because we don't even

2798
02:42:07,080 --> 02:42:11,360
Speaker 1: really understand the intercostal distance between the ribs of things

2799
02:42:11,440 --> 02:42:14,160
Speaker 1: like elephant, how much space is there on average between

2800
02:42:14,320 --> 02:42:16,800
Speaker 1: prints and stuff like how deep is it to the heart.

2801
02:42:16,879 --> 02:42:21,359
Speaker 1: We could find no evidence or data on the distance

2802
02:42:21,440 --> 02:42:23,959
Speaker 1: from the outside of an elephant to its lungs or

2803
02:42:23,959 --> 02:42:26,680
Speaker 1: its heart or deliver all that stuff needs to be measured.

2804
02:42:27,280 --> 02:42:29,920
Speaker 1: So if you guys were game at some point, we

2805
02:42:29,959 --> 02:42:32,280
Speaker 1: would love to do that. We would create all the

2806
02:42:32,320 --> 02:42:34,879
Speaker 1: tools and you guys could spend all day hurling at

2807
02:42:34,920 --> 02:42:37,039
Speaker 1: an elephant. Well, I just gotta find a zookeeper with

2808
02:42:37,080 --> 02:42:43,160
Speaker 1: a dead elephant freezer tag here in North America or uh,

2809
02:42:43,560 --> 02:42:44,840
Speaker 1: you know what you want to listen to. We did

2810
02:42:44,920 --> 02:42:47,400
Speaker 1: a podcast episode with a guy named Dr ed Asby.

2811
02:42:47,520 --> 02:42:49,920
Speaker 1: Here's not a doctor, like he's like a medical doctor,

2812
02:42:50,640 --> 02:42:55,640
Speaker 1: but anyways, he he um to test a lot of

2813
02:42:55,640 --> 02:42:58,000
Speaker 1: his stuff and he was looking for that same thing,

2814
02:42:58,000 --> 02:42:59,480
Speaker 1: like how can you get a bunch of stuff? He

2815
02:42:59,480 --> 02:43:03,200
Speaker 1: would go to where they're doing game farm cling. Yeah, yeah,

2816
02:43:03,360 --> 02:43:05,680
Speaker 1: and at game farm cling sites he was able to

2817
02:43:05,720 --> 02:43:08,359
Speaker 1: like launch projectiles into stuff that was going to die anyways,

2818
02:43:08,360 --> 02:43:10,000
Speaker 1: whether he was there or not. Kind of thing. Well,

2819
02:43:10,040 --> 02:43:12,640
Speaker 1: there was a situation George Frizzen, who was a wylming

2820
02:43:12,720 --> 02:43:16,879
Speaker 1: rancher also a scientist, I don't know. Yeah, he published,

2821
02:43:17,120 --> 02:43:18,840
Speaker 1: but he was an archaeolgis in the National Academy of

2822
02:43:18,879 --> 02:43:21,400
Speaker 1: Sciences as well, and he he went over to Africa

2823
02:43:21,400 --> 02:43:24,720
Speaker 1: and through Clovis points at mammoths, but for whatever reason

2824
02:43:25,200 --> 02:43:28,720
Speaker 1: did not record elephant. Yeah, mamoths are dead, You're right. Yeah.

2825
02:43:28,959 --> 02:43:31,480
Speaker 1: He did not record how deep they penetrated or anything

2826
02:43:31,520 --> 02:43:34,840
Speaker 1: like that. He basically just said, like they can puncture

2827
02:43:34,840 --> 02:43:37,560
Speaker 1: the hide a little bit. Um that the papers kind

2828
02:43:37,560 --> 02:43:42,439
Speaker 1: of strange, but like you're like, he but what about Yeah,

2829
02:43:42,600 --> 02:43:45,120
Speaker 1: but it was nine and so maybe it just it

2830
02:43:45,160 --> 02:43:48,039
Speaker 1: wasn't as rigorous. But so anyway, the point is we

2831
02:43:48,120 --> 02:43:53,000
Speaker 1: need to hurle Clovis points at dead elephants to better understandings,

2832
02:43:53,040 --> 02:43:57,760
Speaker 1: like a very solvable problem. Yeah, and it does. Um, alright,

2833
02:43:57,760 --> 02:43:59,440
Speaker 1: so I'm just gonna do some pressure flak in here.

2834
02:44:00,080 --> 02:44:04,840
Speaker 1: We had a great uh uh professor at the University

2835
02:44:04,840 --> 02:44:08,240
Speaker 1: of Montana. We're taking early people's in Montana, their native

2836
02:44:08,240 --> 02:44:10,360
Speaker 1: people's in Montana. That sounds like a good one. It

2837
02:44:10,440 --> 02:44:13,000
Speaker 1: was a good one. But one of the first examples

2838
02:44:13,120 --> 02:44:16,840
Speaker 1: just kind of get people's heads thinking about the past

2839
02:44:16,920 --> 02:44:19,960
Speaker 1: and how they relate to present day. It was um

2840
02:44:20,120 --> 02:44:22,400
Speaker 1: he'd had a site up on the back of the

2841
02:44:22,440 --> 02:44:25,359
Speaker 1: overhead projector desk, had a site up on the overhead

2842
02:44:25,360 --> 02:44:31,320
Speaker 1: projector and it was a little triangle of um flakes

2843
02:44:32,640 --> 02:44:35,280
Speaker 1: and he's like, Okay, what is this and you're looking

2844
02:44:35,360 --> 02:44:38,600
Speaker 1: at it and there's like a circle of flakes, but

2845
02:44:38,640 --> 02:44:43,400
Speaker 1: there's um like a center point with no flakes. There's

2846
02:44:43,959 --> 02:44:47,080
Speaker 1: um two points running off from the center point with

2847
02:44:47,160 --> 02:44:49,480
Speaker 1: no flakes on it. And he's like, what is this?

2848
02:44:49,560 --> 02:44:51,840
Speaker 1: What is this? What is this? And what it is

2849
02:44:53,080 --> 02:44:57,440
Speaker 1: is the shadow of a man sitting there napping. Right,

2850
02:44:57,560 --> 02:45:00,600
Speaker 1: It's like, right, you're like brushing a little off your legs.

2851
02:45:00,680 --> 02:45:02,720
Speaker 1: You're brushing, you know. And so there's like this core

2852
02:45:02,840 --> 02:45:05,000
Speaker 1: area with a bunch of flakes, and it was ship

2853
02:45:05,120 --> 02:45:07,400
Speaker 1: really it was such a good thing. Like you could

2854
02:45:07,400 --> 02:45:11,160
Speaker 1: hear the whole class be like, ah, I gotta say,

2855
02:45:11,160 --> 02:45:13,959
Speaker 1: this is refreshing to my normal sort of like popular

2856
02:45:14,040 --> 02:45:17,000
Speaker 1: napping because I've napped on History Channel and Discover channels.

2857
02:45:17,240 --> 02:45:19,120
Speaker 1: They always have me like sitting in the middle of

2858
02:45:19,200 --> 02:45:23,880
Speaker 1: the woods by myself on a log in the studio. Yeah,

2859
02:45:24,000 --> 02:45:26,040
Speaker 1: but also too, it's so weird because like anyone who

2860
02:45:26,040 --> 02:45:28,200
Speaker 1: thinks of me napping and they seem they just think

2861
02:45:28,240 --> 02:45:30,000
Speaker 1: that that's what I do. I just go by myself

2862
02:45:30,000 --> 02:45:33,320
Speaker 1: into the woods and like Makestone Hippy as it goes

2863
02:45:33,320 --> 02:45:38,920
Speaker 1: to those nappings just behind himself and um, so this

2864
02:45:39,000 --> 02:45:43,800
Speaker 1: is this is refreshing. So you're getting your other I'm

2865
02:45:43,800 --> 02:45:48,800
Speaker 1: working the other nipples. I'm preparing the other footing. I

2866
02:45:48,800 --> 02:45:52,040
Speaker 1: shouldn't say working the other nipple. That doesn't sound right.

2867
02:45:52,280 --> 02:45:54,480
Speaker 1: I like it. That would be a good name for

2868
02:45:54,480 --> 02:45:57,120
Speaker 1: the show, working the other nipple. We'll probably call it.

2869
02:45:57,120 --> 02:45:59,880
Speaker 1: I don't know what's the other one. We hand boppers

2870
02:45:59,879 --> 02:46:06,080
Speaker 1: and nappers and nappens. Drum roll, phil Man, No way,

2871
02:46:06,120 --> 02:46:07,720
Speaker 1: I don't. Don't do the drum roll until he starts

2872
02:46:07,720 --> 02:46:11,520
Speaker 1: doing the practice swings. All right, one of the chances

2873
02:46:11,560 --> 02:46:14,560
Speaker 1: now failure right on the first flake. It's got to

2874
02:46:14,640 --> 02:46:16,360
Speaker 1: go up for the second flake. I would think so

2875
02:46:16,440 --> 02:46:18,960
Speaker 1: because it's thinner. But I mean to be honest, I

2876
02:46:19,480 --> 02:46:21,520
Speaker 1: don't think we've ever tried to estimate that. Are you

2877
02:46:21,560 --> 02:46:24,640
Speaker 1: feeling good about it? Um? I never feel good about it,

2878
02:46:24,680 --> 02:46:27,640
Speaker 1: just because a lot of pressure when also too, like

2879
02:46:27,840 --> 02:46:29,920
Speaker 1: you wanna sort of have your eye on on the

2880
02:46:29,959 --> 02:46:33,920
Speaker 1: ball and no time for feeling right when you're doing

2881
02:46:33,959 --> 02:46:38,400
Speaker 1: those practice swings. Are you imagining yourself inching ever? Like

2882
02:46:38,560 --> 02:46:42,760
Speaker 1: not inching millimeter ing ever closer to the strike is

2883
02:46:42,760 --> 02:46:44,040
Speaker 1: that you're doing. That's what you want to do? You

2884
02:46:44,080 --> 02:46:46,840
Speaker 1: want to basically the first couple of ones, I'm lining up,

2885
02:46:46,879 --> 02:46:49,280
Speaker 1: and then I'm getting closer and closer and you just

2886
02:46:49,320 --> 02:46:55,199
Speaker 1: want to catch, so you're like like, okay, get warmed up, closer, closer, closer, closer, closer, close, closer,

2887
02:46:55,240 --> 02:46:58,879
Speaker 1: and it's gonna hit and it's gonna barely hit. Yes, yeah,

2888
02:46:59,040 --> 02:47:03,400
Speaker 1: all right, got the antler, got it. It's practice swinging

2889
02:47:03,959 --> 02:47:09,920
Speaker 1: a little more. Dressing practice, swing practice, swing practice. I'll stop.

2890
02:47:11,959 --> 02:47:15,760
Speaker 1: I like the challenge, so I don't need to do that.

2891
02:47:16,160 --> 02:47:19,320
Speaker 1: I don't think it's adding any of the show looking nervous.

2892
02:47:25,360 --> 02:47:40,880
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, second one broke and so what do you

2893
02:47:40,920 --> 02:47:45,400
Speaker 1: think went wrong on that twing? Steve went wrong on dude,

2894
02:47:45,640 --> 02:47:49,600
Speaker 1: it's a chance, per face. I think it's a one

2895
02:47:49,600 --> 02:47:51,720
Speaker 1: in two. Ozzy, He's gonna bust the thing. It's like

2896
02:47:51,760 --> 02:47:57,520
Speaker 1: when Steve's like, shoot shooting. I mean, to be honest,

2897
02:47:57,520 --> 02:48:00,240
Speaker 1: exactly is the problem what I've just created? Here we

2898
02:48:00,280 --> 02:48:05,480
Speaker 1: find in the archaeological record, So you know, one this

2899
02:48:05,680 --> 02:48:08,000
Speaker 1: was this was my fault. I think what I did

2900
02:48:08,160 --> 02:48:13,279
Speaker 1: was because I basically I hit um sort of two

2901
02:48:13,360 --> 02:48:15,720
Speaker 1: at the wrong angle. I should have hit directly down

2902
02:48:15,959 --> 02:48:20,400
Speaker 1: rather than now your Monday morning quarterback. And yeah, now

2903
02:48:20,680 --> 02:48:23,840
Speaker 1: when like if someone was doing that and you've got

2904
02:48:23,879 --> 02:48:27,000
Speaker 1: that front piece. There is that still usable for anything?

2905
02:48:27,080 --> 02:48:30,680
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, we could easily turn that into close point whatever.

2906
02:48:30,760 --> 02:48:33,440
Speaker 1: So and I've done that, not a total No, it'd

2907
02:48:33,480 --> 02:48:34,880
Speaker 1: be like, well screw it now, he got out of

2908
02:48:34,879 --> 02:48:39,200
Speaker 1: the mud. Anyway, you're napping as fast as you can.

2909
02:48:39,400 --> 02:48:42,560
Speaker 1: Like so, but yeah, so what you just saw was

2910
02:48:43,160 --> 02:48:50,000
Speaker 1: an actual archaeological up, actual occurrence. Yeah. So besides you

2911
02:48:50,240 --> 02:48:55,760
Speaker 1: um needing dead elephants, they've already died, already died anyways.

2912
02:48:56,480 --> 02:49:00,480
Speaker 1: And people want to contribute to research. Yeah, and like

2913
02:49:00,600 --> 02:49:05,400
Speaker 1: not just really like a pertinent question about contribute to

2914
02:49:05,400 --> 02:49:11,000
Speaker 1: research all the things. That's like a pertinent question about history, humanity.

2915
02:49:11,200 --> 02:49:13,240
Speaker 1: What are capabilities of kind of like one of the

2916
02:49:13,360 --> 02:49:16,840
Speaker 1: great historical mysteries, like what happened to all those big

2917
02:49:16,879 --> 02:49:22,600
Speaker 1: gas animals? Climate change? But the climate changed all the time, dude,

2918
02:49:23,000 --> 02:49:25,960
Speaker 1: So that is an assumption though, no, no no, no, no,

2919
02:49:27,760 --> 02:49:30,360
Speaker 1: it's an assumption that the end of the plisuscene climate

2920
02:49:30,440 --> 02:49:33,840
Speaker 1: change is similar to climate changes of the past. And

2921
02:49:33,840 --> 02:49:36,280
Speaker 1: and there there seems to have been and again I'm

2922
02:49:36,280 --> 02:49:40,120
Speaker 1: not an expert on climate change, um, but uh, the

2923
02:49:40,480 --> 02:49:43,920
Speaker 1: change that occurred at the end of the last ten

2924
02:49:44,000 --> 02:49:47,520
Speaker 1: thousand years may have been much more draft dramatic than

2925
02:49:47,560 --> 02:49:51,959
Speaker 1: what occurred in other interglacials. Um there were interglacial periods

2926
02:49:52,400 --> 02:49:58,240
Speaker 1: that got so warm that the pedestal of the Statue

2927
02:49:58,240 --> 02:50:02,560
Speaker 1: of Liberty today would have been underwater. It was that

2928
02:50:02,640 --> 02:50:05,600
Speaker 1: warm during some of the intergratitional and the ship lived

2929
02:50:05,600 --> 02:50:09,600
Speaker 1: through that. But whether or not that caused some sort

2930
02:50:09,600 --> 02:50:13,680
Speaker 1: of detriment to population sizes or that would have then

2931
02:50:13,720 --> 02:50:15,680
Speaker 1: when they get to the next one. So it becomes

2932
02:50:15,680 --> 02:50:18,640
Speaker 1: almost like a degradation over long time, because we know

2933
02:50:18,720 --> 02:50:22,120
Speaker 1: from you know, other time periods that extinctions occur all

2934
02:50:22,160 --> 02:50:25,879
Speaker 1: the time. Everything goes extinct eventually, so it could just

2935
02:50:25,959 --> 02:50:28,880
Speaker 1: be whittling away over tens of thousands, if not hundreds

2936
02:50:28,879 --> 02:50:31,120
Speaker 1: of thousands of years long. Me to hit me another zinger,

2937
02:50:31,400 --> 02:50:36,039
Speaker 1: bringing up Okay, I got a zinger crawling from mercy.

2938
02:50:36,680 --> 02:50:44,080
Speaker 1: Mercy humans okay had been in Africa millions of years.

2939
02:50:45,240 --> 02:50:48,520
Speaker 1: Their ship didn't go extinct, that's true. Why is that

2940
02:50:49,400 --> 02:50:53,360
Speaker 1: because they co evolved with human hunters. Their elephants didn't

2941
02:50:53,360 --> 02:50:55,800
Speaker 1: go extinct, or big o rhinods didn't go extinct, or

2942
02:50:55,840 --> 02:50:58,800
Speaker 1: they didn't hunt elephants. But you're saying they didn't hunt

2943
02:50:58,840 --> 02:51:07,600
Speaker 1: them here. Yeah, I hope this is real. I don't

2944
02:51:07,640 --> 02:51:11,000
Speaker 1: I don't understand my own point. But it's a thing

2945
02:51:11,040 --> 02:51:13,440
Speaker 1: that blitz Creek people like to bring up. That's like

2946
02:51:13,480 --> 02:51:15,240
Speaker 1: the whole basis of the blitz Creek. It was like

2947
02:51:16,280 --> 02:51:18,320
Speaker 1: they're like, look what hapens all over the world? Right,

2948
02:51:18,480 --> 02:51:22,439
Speaker 1: humans show up and then there's a contemporaneous die off. Okay,

2949
02:51:22,560 --> 02:51:25,280
Speaker 1: and you're like the mora, what's that big gass bird

2950
02:51:25,280 --> 02:51:30,000
Speaker 1: in New Zealand? The moa moa and the Maori people

2951
02:51:30,480 --> 02:51:34,320
Speaker 1: right once ship in Australia, Okay, big birds go away.

2952
02:51:35,000 --> 02:51:37,879
Speaker 1: Islands get hit hard, and then you go and be like,

2953
02:51:38,280 --> 02:51:44,119
Speaker 1: but in Africa they kept their camel, they're hippo, they're rhinos,

2954
02:51:44,440 --> 02:51:50,640
Speaker 1: their elephants. How else do you explain that, Well, they

2955
02:51:50,640 --> 02:51:53,720
Speaker 1: didn't hunt them. There's as far as I know, there

2956
02:51:53,720 --> 02:51:56,520
Speaker 1: are no hunting sites. Yeah, there's no hunting sites in

2957
02:51:57,840 --> 02:52:04,280
Speaker 1: Why did the global climate change not kill those elephants? Well, because,

2958
02:52:04,480 --> 02:52:07,879
Speaker 1: I mean, climate change in North America is a different

2959
02:52:07,920 --> 02:52:09,840
Speaker 1: thing in like a northern hemisphere than it would be

2960
02:52:09,920 --> 02:52:12,879
Speaker 1: in the equator. Like climate change hits different parts of

2961
02:52:12,959 --> 02:52:17,359
Speaker 1: the globe differently, and so if climate change in Africa

2962
02:52:17,600 --> 02:52:22,039
Speaker 1: was not as dramatic. Um animals can survive there in

2963
02:52:22,080 --> 02:52:26,240
Speaker 1: a way that they wouldn't in North America. But the

2964
02:52:26,400 --> 02:52:30,119
Speaker 1: but the mega fauna in the equatorial west western hemisphere

2965
02:52:30,120 --> 02:52:39,160
Speaker 1: went away the equatorial western hemisphere. That's yeah, that's true.

2966
02:52:39,760 --> 02:52:42,560
Speaker 1: So it's not an equator issue. I should read a

2967
02:52:42,560 --> 02:52:44,880
Speaker 1: paper well, but the issue. But it's also not an

2968
02:52:44,879 --> 02:52:47,720
Speaker 1: Africa issue either. I mean, nor South America is different

2969
02:52:47,720 --> 02:52:50,119
Speaker 1: than Africa. So the point was just that there's different

2970
02:52:50,400 --> 02:52:54,080
Speaker 1: areas that could be affected differently. But you do admit

2971
02:52:54,120 --> 02:52:57,800
Speaker 1: that it's an interesting wrinkle. And I'm not saying too

2972
02:52:57,879 --> 02:53:01,080
Speaker 1: that we have answers to any of this of um

2973
02:53:01,400 --> 02:53:03,280
Speaker 1: and And to be honest, I think this Clovis point

2974
02:53:03,360 --> 02:53:06,560
Speaker 1: issue penetration thing, how deep they penetrate Like at the

2975
02:53:06,640 --> 02:53:09,320
Speaker 1: end of the day, it is an engineering and physics question.

2976
02:53:10,200 --> 02:53:13,560
Speaker 1: Is it possible in some way to get a point

2977
02:53:13,680 --> 02:53:19,080
Speaker 1: this size going at thirty one per second? Is there

2978
02:53:19,160 --> 02:53:22,240
Speaker 1: some trick that clovised people had to maybe have these

2979
02:53:22,240 --> 02:53:24,640
Speaker 1: things penetrate deeper than what we can do today and

2980
02:53:24,680 --> 02:53:28,520
Speaker 1: to kill thousands and thousands of mammoth is that possible?

2981
02:53:28,600 --> 02:53:30,680
Speaker 1: There are any more or less to kill? And so

2982
02:53:31,080 --> 02:53:34,199
Speaker 1: like this issue is not closed, and no one should

2983
02:53:34,240 --> 02:53:37,720
Speaker 1: think it is closed. Um, it's an interesting question that

2984
02:53:37,840 --> 02:53:40,200
Speaker 1: we need like lots of different scientists, and we need

2985
02:53:40,240 --> 02:53:42,199
Speaker 1: lots of dead elephants. We need lots of dead elephants.

2986
02:53:42,200 --> 02:53:46,000
Speaker 1: But I think the cool thing about experimental archaeology is that, look,

2987
02:53:46,000 --> 02:53:48,840
Speaker 1: there's lots of flint nappers out there. People can learn

2988
02:53:48,840 --> 02:53:51,160
Speaker 1: to flint nap. These are experiments you could potentially do

2989
02:53:51,200 --> 02:53:54,720
Speaker 1: in your backyard. Right, So if you doubt my results

2990
02:53:54,800 --> 02:53:57,000
Speaker 1: or anyone else's, like, there's no reason why you can't

2991
02:53:57,040 --> 02:53:59,480
Speaker 1: buy some Clovis points and half them and see how

2992
02:53:59,760 --> 02:54:03,120
Speaker 1: deep they penetrate, you know, various media that you've got

2993
02:54:03,120 --> 02:54:05,720
Speaker 1: in your back carcasses, whatever. That's a good point. Someone

2994
02:54:05,760 --> 02:54:07,879
Speaker 1: could be like, you've always got it all wrong, and

2995
02:54:07,920 --> 02:54:09,440
Speaker 1: they have the thing up, and then he can write

2996
02:54:09,480 --> 02:54:10,800
Speaker 1: you let them be like, hey man, here's what I

2997
02:54:10,840 --> 02:54:12,560
Speaker 1: think what's going on. Well, And the thing too is

2998
02:54:12,600 --> 02:54:14,440
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I don't give a

2999
02:54:14,480 --> 02:54:17,560
Speaker 1: flying rats ass if I'm right or wrong. I want

3000
02:54:17,600 --> 02:54:20,360
Speaker 1: to know what happened. And I think that's the difference

3001
02:54:20,360 --> 02:54:24,640
Speaker 1: between a scientist that is committed to evidence and one

3002
02:54:24,720 --> 02:54:27,359
Speaker 1: that's not. Like, because even if you're wrong. Your hypothesis

3003
02:54:27,360 --> 02:54:32,480
Speaker 1: is incorrect. Being incorrect is a contribution because you've shown

3004
02:54:32,600 --> 02:54:35,439
Speaker 1: that other scientists shouldn't go down that avenue of inquiry.

3005
02:54:36,080 --> 02:54:39,240
Speaker 1: So um no, I I encourage others to to test

3006
02:54:39,480 --> 02:54:42,080
Speaker 1: what we found and what others have found. And this

3007
02:54:42,120 --> 02:54:44,560
Speaker 1: issue definitely is not settled. It could even be your

3008
02:54:44,600 --> 02:54:51,680
Speaker 1: freshman high school science project. Kidna. Just say, I got

3009
02:54:51,680 --> 02:54:53,760
Speaker 1: one last question. Before you tell people how to find

3010
02:54:53,760 --> 02:54:55,160
Speaker 1: you and how to apply for your do you take

3011
02:54:55,200 --> 02:54:58,200
Speaker 1: on students? Yeah, definitely, we've got You've got too many

3012
02:54:58,280 --> 02:55:00,640
Speaker 1: applicants already. We have quite a few. You you're not

3013
02:55:00,640 --> 02:55:05,640
Speaker 1: looking for more applicants? Well, we always welcome out. Um uh,

3014
02:55:05,640 --> 02:55:08,320
Speaker 1: here's my question for you. And this gets into your

3015
02:55:08,520 --> 02:55:13,640
Speaker 1: heart and soul and integrity as a as a scientist. Uh.

3016
02:55:13,800 --> 02:55:15,920
Speaker 1: I remember saying to a researcher one time. They're talking

3017
02:55:15,959 --> 02:55:17,360
Speaker 1: about a project, and I said, well, what do you

3018
02:55:17,400 --> 02:55:21,320
Speaker 1: hope happens? And he told me the reasons why that

3019
02:55:21,320 --> 02:55:23,280
Speaker 1: that's not really a thing that you're supposed to do.

3020
02:55:23,879 --> 02:55:26,240
Speaker 1: You know, Oh my god, that makes sense because it

3021
02:55:26,440 --> 02:55:29,640
Speaker 1: cause a bias. Right, But when you were doing it

3022
02:55:29,640 --> 02:55:31,879
Speaker 1: with the uh, when you're doing the work with the

3023
02:55:31,879 --> 02:55:33,880
Speaker 1: stone points there has been some little part of you

3024
02:55:34,680 --> 02:55:37,840
Speaker 1: and maybe you can do successfully put it aside. There

3025
02:55:37,840 --> 02:55:40,680
Speaker 1: has been some party it's like rooting for the point. Look,

3026
02:55:40,760 --> 02:55:42,320
Speaker 1: I want to know. I mean, like you gotta be

3027
02:55:42,400 --> 02:55:46,440
Speaker 1: kind of like. I went on a PBS national documentary

3028
02:55:46,520 --> 02:55:49,840
Speaker 1: on the People in America's and I said on national television,

3029
02:55:49,920 --> 02:55:53,119
Speaker 1: the Clovis point could take down any ice age beast.

3030
02:55:53,440 --> 02:55:56,360
Speaker 1: Like I thought for a really long time that that's

3031
02:55:56,360 --> 02:55:58,160
Speaker 1: what Clovis points could do. And I said it on

3032
02:55:58,240 --> 02:56:01,720
Speaker 1: National TV. Um, the evidence at the moment does not

3033
02:56:01,760 --> 02:56:04,680
Speaker 1: support that hypothesis. So I changed my mind based on

3034
02:56:04,720 --> 02:56:08,280
Speaker 1: the evidence. Um. But some little party was kind of

3035
02:56:08,480 --> 02:56:10,880
Speaker 1: the kid and he was rooting for the point. Yeah,

3036
02:56:11,000 --> 02:56:13,000
Speaker 1: and and there may be again. Like I said, at

3037
02:56:13,040 --> 02:56:14,760
Speaker 1: the end of the day, this is a physics question

3038
02:56:14,800 --> 02:56:18,360
Speaker 1: and an engineering question. Maybe there's some physics or engineering

3039
02:56:18,360 --> 02:56:22,160
Speaker 1: trick that Clovis folks understood about their weaponry that we

3040
02:56:22,240 --> 02:56:25,440
Speaker 1: have not unlocked yet that will make their their points

3041
02:56:25,440 --> 02:56:28,840
Speaker 1: more deadly and lethal than they currently are. In the lab,

3042
02:56:29,959 --> 02:56:34,320
Speaker 1: got it all right? Tell people what how to kind

3043
02:56:34,320 --> 02:56:37,720
Speaker 1: of find you remind everybody where you're at and what

3044
02:56:37,840 --> 02:56:39,560
Speaker 1: sorts of things you're working on that that might be

3045
02:56:39,600 --> 02:56:42,200
Speaker 1: of interest to our audience. Yeah, So we're at the

3046
02:56:42,280 --> 02:56:46,360
Speaker 1: Kent State Experiments Archaeology Laboratory, and uh, we're working on

3047
02:56:46,720 --> 02:56:53,279
Speaker 1: understanding ancient technologies made out of any material ceramics, stone, metals, leather, whatever, um.

3048
02:56:53,320 --> 02:56:55,240
Speaker 1: And we just want to understand how this stuff was

3049
02:56:55,320 --> 02:56:58,360
Speaker 1: made and how it worked. And once we can understand

3050
02:56:58,400 --> 02:57:00,879
Speaker 1: how this stuff was made and how it worked, we

3051
02:57:00,920 --> 02:57:03,680
Speaker 1: can understand why it appears the way it does in

3052
02:57:03,720 --> 02:57:06,440
Speaker 1: the archaeological record, and we can understand the evolution of

3053
02:57:06,480 --> 02:57:09,720
Speaker 1: technology over the last three million years. Tell me about

3054
02:57:09,720 --> 02:57:13,960
Speaker 1: the primal Points project you're involved in. So as any

3055
02:57:14,000 --> 02:57:18,480
Speaker 1: scientific field matures, it starts to contribute to society. So

3056
02:57:18,720 --> 02:57:21,480
Speaker 1: physics is a very old field and now we have

3057
02:57:21,520 --> 02:57:23,840
Speaker 1: all sorts of societal benefits from physics, and same with

3058
02:57:23,879 --> 02:57:28,000
Speaker 1: biology and medicine. Well, experiments archaeology is relatively young, but

3059
02:57:28,120 --> 02:57:30,959
Speaker 1: we feel that it should be starting to contribute to

3060
02:57:31,000 --> 02:57:33,280
Speaker 1: society and in different ways, and so we start to

3061
02:57:33,280 --> 02:57:36,400
Speaker 1: think how could that be, And so what we decided

3062
02:57:36,440 --> 02:57:39,680
Speaker 1: to do was design a new type of broadhead that

3063
02:57:40,000 --> 02:57:45,320
Speaker 1: performs similarly to modern broadheads but looks like ancient chip

3064
02:57:45,440 --> 02:57:48,880
Speaker 1: stone ones. So this way you can go hunting bow

3065
02:57:48,920 --> 02:57:52,000
Speaker 1: hunting now and and hunt a barker or whatever with

3066
02:57:52,080 --> 02:57:55,480
Speaker 1: a Clovis point or a notched archaic point. And so

3067
02:57:55,560 --> 02:57:58,959
Speaker 1: we've actually got examples of the technology where essentially what

3068
02:57:59,000 --> 02:58:03,760
Speaker 1: we do is we've got aluminum casts of actual stone

3069
02:58:03,840 --> 02:58:08,080
Speaker 1: chipped artifacts or arrowheads. And then what we do is,

3070
02:58:08,240 --> 02:58:11,880
Speaker 1: through a special pouring technique, we can put a steel

3071
02:58:12,000 --> 02:58:15,520
Speaker 1: blade on the inside of it. UM. So it's got

3072
02:58:15,560 --> 02:58:18,360
Speaker 1: the same razor sharp edge and the durability of a

3073
02:58:18,440 --> 02:58:22,480
Speaker 1: modern broadhead. UM. So you know, you can and it

3074
02:58:22,600 --> 02:58:26,160
Speaker 1: screws into modern arrow shafts. Uh, you know, just the

3075
02:58:26,200 --> 02:58:29,280
Speaker 1: way any other broadhead would UM and so, but it

3076
02:58:29,280 --> 02:58:32,120
Speaker 1: would look like a chip stone one can you make?

3077
02:58:32,360 --> 02:58:34,920
Speaker 1: You make a foolesome one. We can make any time period,

3078
02:58:34,920 --> 02:58:37,480
Speaker 1: so you can actually tailor your bow hunt UM to

3079
02:58:37,640 --> 02:58:39,880
Speaker 1: the area you're going to. So if you're going to Europe,

3080
02:58:40,280 --> 02:58:44,520
Speaker 1: you can take a European style um of of ancient arrowhead,

3081
02:58:44,560 --> 02:58:46,440
Speaker 1: or if you're going to Australia or Africa, take an

3082
02:58:46,440 --> 02:58:49,800
Speaker 1: African style or anywhere, right, so you can tailor you

3083
02:58:49,800 --> 02:58:54,880
Speaker 1: can just got the weight, it's got the way aerodynamics

3084
02:58:54,920 --> 02:58:57,680
Speaker 1: of stone, but it's got the sharp en durability of

3085
02:58:57,760 --> 02:59:01,039
Speaker 1: steel and modern broadheads. So when are you gonna make

3086
02:59:01,040 --> 02:59:03,720
Speaker 1: a folsome one? We can make those right now. Well

3087
02:59:03,840 --> 02:59:05,760
Speaker 1: not here in the studio, but we could make we

3088
02:59:05,760 --> 02:59:09,440
Speaker 1: could make one. Yeah, yeah, definitely flinging it. So that's

3089
02:59:09,480 --> 02:59:16,600
Speaker 1: no problem. Are you on social media? I hate social media? Yeah,

3090
02:59:16,840 --> 02:59:21,320
Speaker 1: so I'm just it's one of my roommates was involving

3091
02:59:21,520 --> 02:59:24,800
Speaker 1: You're not like at napping or no, no, no, Um,

3092
02:59:24,879 --> 02:59:28,240
Speaker 1: that'd be a good social network. Listen, man, this is

3093
02:59:28,240 --> 02:59:30,160
Speaker 1: all kinds of bad ship can say about social media.

3094
02:59:30,240 --> 02:59:31,640
Speaker 1: But if you had a social media site and it

3095
02:59:31,720 --> 02:59:33,200
Speaker 1: was like, hey, check this point out, here's what we

3096
02:59:33,240 --> 02:59:34,920
Speaker 1: think is going on with this and blah blah blah,

3097
02:59:34,879 --> 02:59:36,760
Speaker 1: I'd subscribe to that that. And I'm kind of a liar

3098
02:59:36,800 --> 02:59:39,360
Speaker 1: like our Lab does have a Twitter account, Um, but

3099
02:59:39,440 --> 02:59:41,520
Speaker 1: I don't. I personally, I try to avoid social media

3100
02:59:41,520 --> 02:59:45,040
Speaker 1: when I can. Um do. Wild Turkey Doc man, there's

3101
02:59:45,080 --> 02:59:47,840
Speaker 1: a guy wild Turk like Mike Chamberlain. Wild Turkey Doc.

3102
02:59:48,440 --> 02:59:50,760
Speaker 1: He has a social media channel. He shares his research.

3103
02:59:50,760 --> 02:59:53,000
Speaker 1: It's fascinating. I think that they shouldn't be allowed to

3104
02:59:53,040 --> 02:59:55,640
Speaker 1: have any social media accounts besides his social media that's

3105
02:59:55,640 --> 02:59:59,440
Speaker 1: pretty good. Yeah, he shares his research academic Twitter is

3106
02:59:59,480 --> 03:00:02,039
Speaker 1: pretty cool. And then he's got like they'll put a

3107
03:00:02,240 --> 03:00:04,280
Speaker 1: tracking device on a turkey and he'll public and just

3108
03:00:04,320 --> 03:00:05,959
Speaker 1: on social media he'll have like, what all the turkey

3109
03:00:06,000 --> 03:00:07,960
Speaker 1: was up to that? Yeah, it doesn't need to be

3110
03:00:08,000 --> 03:00:09,440
Speaker 1: like it's not like, it doesn't need to be you

3111
03:00:09,520 --> 03:00:12,800
Speaker 1: talking about I don't know, remile in your kitchen. It

3112
03:00:12,879 --> 03:00:16,840
Speaker 1: could be like, uh about stone stuff. Yeah, no, that's true,

3113
03:00:16,959 --> 03:00:20,560
Speaker 1: that's true. Um, but yeah, I don't know why just

3114
03:00:20,800 --> 03:00:24,000
Speaker 1: social media makes me nervous. Well for good reason, but

3115
03:00:24,280 --> 03:00:27,600
Speaker 1: there's there's power in it as well. For now, people

3116
03:00:27,600 --> 03:00:31,840
Speaker 1: can email us questions that we forward to. Yeah. For

3117
03:00:31,920 --> 03:00:33,920
Speaker 1: now though, if people have a question for you, I

3118
03:00:33,920 --> 03:00:38,720
Speaker 1: have an email address. You want all these emails? I

3119
03:00:38,720 --> 03:00:40,920
Speaker 1: mean they can find you anyway. Well, let him go

3120
03:00:40,959 --> 03:00:43,600
Speaker 1: through the hass little find if now sending dawns and

3121
03:00:43,840 --> 03:00:47,720
Speaker 1: in the esteemed Corey Calkins will be like, I want

3122
03:00:47,760 --> 03:00:50,879
Speaker 1: to put a clover's point through a car door. You're

3123
03:00:50,920 --> 03:00:54,440
Speaker 1: telling me car door? All right, man, thanks so much

3124
03:00:54,480 --> 03:00:57,879
Speaker 1: for coming on. Thanks for my beautiful knife. Yeah it's

3125
03:00:57,959 --> 03:01:01,400
Speaker 1: lutrean laurel leaf laurel you and thank you for having me.

3126
03:01:01,400 --> 03:01:06,640
Speaker 1: This is an awesome. Super appreciate all the stuff you brought. Man. Yeah,

3127
03:01:06,680 --> 03:01:10,640
Speaker 1: it's gonna be fun going back. Baggage claim they were.

3128
03:01:10,680 --> 03:01:12,480
Speaker 1: I was like, what the hell is in here? Yeah,

3129
03:01:12,520 --> 03:01:16,400
Speaker 1: for sure. Just just my weapons, just my weapons, house Stone,

3130
03:01:17,080 --> 03:01:18,800
Speaker 1: all right, man, thank you very much. Hey, thank you