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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. Holmes present Killer Thriller with your

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Speaker 1: host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, Lisa Donovan here back with

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Speaker 1: the new episode of Killer Thriller Today. Oh boy, am

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Speaker 1: I excited about my guest today? Today we are going

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Speaker 1: to step into the real story behind a dramatization that

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Speaker 1: still leaves a mark. Escaping the Nexium cult, a mother's

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Speaker 1: fight to save her daughter. So Nexium presented itself as

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Speaker 1: a coaching and mentorship program, but authorities later described it

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Speaker 1: as a cult like organization tied to sex trafficking, exploitation,

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Speaker 1: and manipulation, and its one time leader, Keith Raniery, is

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Speaker 1: now serving one hundred and twenty years in federal prison.

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Speaker 1: Our guest today is Sarah Edmondson. Sarah is extraordinary as

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Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned. She spent more than a decade

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Speaker 1: in Nexim. She rose from student to coach. She ran

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Speaker 1: and opened and ran an Nexium center in Vancouver, and

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Speaker 1: then was later recruited into a secret sorority group quote

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Speaker 1: unquote with Nexium called Doss where women were branded and

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Speaker 1: they were being groomed to have sex with the leader.

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Speaker 1: After leaving Nexim, Sarah made the decision to go public,

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Speaker 1: and she became one of the first insiders to blow

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Speaker 1: the whistle on this group, and she helped to expose

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Speaker 1: a system that prosecutors later described as criminal, coercive, and exploitative.

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Speaker 1: She chronicled her experience in her twenty nineteen books Scarred.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to speak with Sarah about her experiences

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Speaker 1: inside Nexium and what she is doing. Now, let's bring

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Speaker 1: Sarah on. Welcome, Sarah Edmundson. I'm just really honored to

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Speaker 1: talk with you because I remember when I first read

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Speaker 1: the New York Times article and I had this like

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Speaker 1: download feeling in my whole body of like, holy cow,

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Speaker 1: this woman, like this is her life's purpose now, like

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Speaker 1: she is supposed to do this, because it's a very

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Speaker 1: unique position. In my opinion. You tell me if I'm

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Speaker 1: wrong that you hold, which is you're incredibly articulate, you're

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Speaker 1: very smart, You're very self aware, and as soon as

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Speaker 1: you realized that things were really sideways, you like made

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Speaker 1: that shift and went no, no, no, no no, and

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Speaker 1: immediately tried to not only extricate yourself but take responsibility

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Speaker 1: and accountability. I just think all of those things are

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Speaker 1: really impressive and miraculous and It's like you answered sort

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Speaker 1: of the call of your life, whether it was what

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Speaker 1: you were wanted it to be or not.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate you saying that it certainly was not what

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Speaker 2: I planned, but it was definitely, you know, kind of ironic,

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Speaker 2: especially because I joined Nexium to figure out my purpose.

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Speaker 3: So right, you know, it was you got to be

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Speaker 3: really clearer.

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Speaker 2: But when you ask for things, right, I got to

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Speaker 2: write I want to figure out my purpose.

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Speaker 3: All right, well, okay, here we go.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, I appreciate it. That's very kind words. And

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Speaker 2: I had no idea that even that article would have,

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Speaker 2: you know, the impact that it did.

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Speaker 1: Yes, So let's talk about In twenty nineteen, you published

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Speaker 1: a book about your experience. It's called Scarred, The True

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Speaker 1: Story of How I Escape Nexium, the cult that bound

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Speaker 1: in my life, And we are definitely going to get

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Speaker 1: into that. But the same year, the Naxium story was

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Speaker 1: dramatized in the eighty film Escaping the Nexium Culled a

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Speaker 1: mother's fight to save her daughter, which that film centers

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Speaker 1: on Catherine Oxenberg's fight to get her daughter India out. So, first,

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Speaker 1: have you seen the movie? Do you remember it and

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Speaker 1: do you think it's accurate.

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Speaker 3: So a couple of things.

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Speaker 2: I feel like need to be careful because I'm super

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Speaker 2: grateful to all the films that I did back when

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Speaker 2: I was acting with Lifetime, and they've always treated me

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Speaker 2: very well. However I felt and not however, and this

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Speaker 2: was a very hard film to watch. No granted, I

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Speaker 2: will say I was not in the best place. My

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Speaker 2: scard had just come out, and I was on a

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Speaker 2: book tour and I didn't know it at the time,

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Speaker 2: but I was having an adverse reaction to some sleeping.

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Speaker 3: Medication and I was spiraling.

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Speaker 2: And I think it was also in combination with the

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Speaker 2: stress of doing like rapid press, like entertainment tonight, and

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Speaker 2: all the things that I was running around and doing

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Speaker 2: and not being super grounded.

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Speaker 3: I had a six week no six months old, I

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Speaker 3: had a new baby.

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Speaker 2: I was dealing with postpartum stuff, and I was emotionally

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Speaker 2: like kind of rocked.

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Speaker 3: And I didn't know it at the time that I

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Speaker 3: was dealing with those things.

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Speaker 1: I just thought it was so just the fact of

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Speaker 1: what you're talking about in the press tour, like I

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Speaker 1: would imagine, it's like you're still healing from it and

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Speaker 1: processing in different ways and that's a lot.

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Speaker 3: It was a lot. I was dealing with a lot.

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Speaker 2: And this is two years, you know, two and a

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Speaker 2: bit years out. I thought I was healed, like and

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Speaker 2: I was doing I would done. I was quite well

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Speaker 2: when I was pregnant with Ace. Is just after the

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Speaker 2: postpartum and the book tour and all those things. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: but the series care the movie came out in that

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Speaker 2: time for me, So I want to preface it that

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Speaker 2: I'm viewing it through that filter. So I did not

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Speaker 2: enjoy watching it. I just found it like grossly inaccurate.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just the fact that keithrin Ay was played

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Speaker 2: by a handsome charism problem yeah, right with be like

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Speaker 2: Peter Peter Falconi.

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Speaker 1: I think his name was Fastionelle, Yes, but Fationelle.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that's right, fation I didn't know who he was.

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Speaker 3: He's very handsome. Keith was not handsome.

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Speaker 2: Like there's just like that's bad cast.

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Speaker 3: Like the casting was so bad.

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Speaker 2: Whoever cast, I'm sorry, you didn't do your research and

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Speaker 2: it was not would not have been hard to research properly.

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Speaker 3: And I don't know why Catherine.

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Speaker 2: Who was there and met Keith and met Nancy and

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Speaker 2: produced it if I recall, like why she wouldn't steer

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Speaker 2: them in the right direction. We've never talked about that.

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Speaker 2: But Nancy Salzman was also played very like a school marm,

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Speaker 2: like a strict kind of like Ira call, very sort

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Speaker 2: of stoic and no, you're not doing it right, Versus

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Speaker 2: Nancy is like expressive and she's away top to the

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Speaker 2: point that people are uncomfortable with her level of expression,

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Speaker 2: like Hi, I'm right, welcome to executive success.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: That's what's big freaked me out. Was very big, very

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Speaker 1: big yes.

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Speaker 2: And if you were, by the way, the little tangent, if

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Speaker 2: you were to ever express that in class, which people did,

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Speaker 2: they would say and sometimes even preempted it, that some

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Speaker 2: people who had issues with her level of expression were

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Speaker 2: probably suppressive and because or had suppression or had expression issues,

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Speaker 2: like you know, so you learned to not say that.

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Speaker 1: This is one of the things that I'm sure will

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Speaker 1: come up a million times as we're talking. But I

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Speaker 1: was so struck by it's in essence. The entire philosophy

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Speaker 1: or what it turns into certainly is really a lesson

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Speaker 1: in how to deny your instincts. And it's like this

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Speaker 1: inversion twisting of that, you know of instead of saying

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Speaker 1: it's just so manipulative. It's so manipulative.

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Speaker 3: And of course there was somebody playing playing you.

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Speaker 1: That's what I was going to ask, Yeah, do you

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Speaker 1: remember that at all?

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Speaker 2: Well, she looked completely unhinged, which was really Yeah, she

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Speaker 2: was just like like folk crazy.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I got branded, like I don't.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy, right, certainly there was a time when I

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Speaker 2: was kind of unhinged when I was figuring things out,

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Speaker 2: but I don't I when I heard that this was

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Speaker 2: being made, I offered to say, like, if any if

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Speaker 2: the actress wants to talk to me, I'm happy to

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Speaker 2: talk to her, give her my book.

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Speaker 3: None of that.

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Speaker 2: He did it.

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Speaker 3: No, they didn't, which is.

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Speaker 2: Also weird because you know, Catherine's involved and she's got

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Speaker 2: my number, and like, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Know, that is strange. I do think that's strange because

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, you know, with especially with

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Speaker 1: Lifetime a Ney, these like oftentimes these movies happen very quickly,

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Speaker 1: so maybe they don't like have the time to talk

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Speaker 1: to people or whatever. But in that circumstance, because Catherine

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Speaker 1: clearly knew you and India knew you, it does seem odd.

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Speaker 3: That they wouldn't It does seem odd.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean the whole the whole thing is strange. Also,

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Speaker 2: you know, and I thought of this when you were

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Speaker 2: talking about the Murdoch murders, which by the way, I

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Speaker 2: don't know anything about because it's not cult related and

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Speaker 2: I don't have the bandwidth.

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Speaker 3: So I have to go and watch that show.

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Speaker 2: But so good, it's on my list now, so thank

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Speaker 2: you for that. But I remember you saying like these

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Speaker 2: people are alive, like they're they're playing people or.

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Speaker 3: It's some of them.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, I know some people are not, but there are

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Speaker 2: characters that are being portrayed who are out there in

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Speaker 2: the world. And that's you know, when they make a

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Speaker 2: movie like that, do.

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Speaker 1: You have a responsibility?

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Speaker 2: Is the responsibility and you should like maybe's see what

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Speaker 2: they how they talk or how they express and they's

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Speaker 2: got a lot of things wrong, Like I think they

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Speaker 2: had the wrong sash color on Bonnie, which nobody would

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Speaker 2: notice or care, but for any of us watching would

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Speaker 2: be like, right.

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Speaker 3: Not a green sash, He's an orange sash whatever, all.

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Speaker 2: That stupid stuff. Right, But oh sorry, I tangented. I'm

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Speaker 2: highly caffeinated. Bear with me because of what you said

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Speaker 2: about Murdoch. I was thinking, you know, this is this

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Speaker 2: is the story told from India's perspective, And India's story

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Speaker 2: is very different than my story, and it's very different

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Speaker 2: than even Alison Max's.

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Speaker 3: Story, even though they overlap.

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Speaker 2: And there's so many other women that you don't even

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Speaker 2: know about and that I don't even know about, Like

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Speaker 2: there's sure huge body counts. So I'm watching it from

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Speaker 2: the perspective of like, well, that didn't happen to me.

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Speaker 2: That didn't happen to me. I know that happened to India.

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Speaker 2: Did it happen that way? No, the way that it

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Speaker 2: was written, the way that like the Keith character propositioned

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Speaker 2: the India character, that's not how it happens. It's not

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Speaker 2: that wasn't accurate, like it it wasn't like, hey, do

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Speaker 2: you want to sleep with me and then I'll get

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna give you a brand, you know, like No.

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Speaker 1: Right, that seems like a very simplified version of things,

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Speaker 1: which I think is almost you know, dangerous to sort

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Speaker 1: of just everything because especially certainly which we we will

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Speaker 1: certainly get into your you know, the work that you're

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Speaker 1: doing now to kind of help people not fall into

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Speaker 1: those sorts of traps and things. But it feels like

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Speaker 1: to kind of simplify something in that way. Then someone

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Speaker 1: would watch it and say, well, I would never do that,

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Speaker 1: you know exactly that I'd never be that foolish or

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Speaker 1: that naive, which is the opposite of the vow for

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Speaker 1: us yes, which I just I had a sort of

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Speaker 1: I learned about Nexium because, believe it or not, at

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Speaker 1: the time in twenty sixteen, I had signed with this

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Speaker 1: new manager and I looked who her clients were, and

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Speaker 1: the most prominent client was Alison Mack, and I was like, oh, wow,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. Like I thought I should know Allison

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Speaker 1: because we were sort of in the same circles, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't know her. I knew a couple of other

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Speaker 1: people on Smallville, but I didn't know her. And then

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Speaker 1: I was like and I thought, well, this is a

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Speaker 1: great parallel bo like, you know, actresses on TV in

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Speaker 1: the nineties and maybe like reinventing their careers or something.

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Speaker 1: And then I looked and I was like, wesh, she

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Speaker 1: hasn't really worked. And then I googled her and I

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Speaker 1: find this like interview that she's sitting across from this

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Speaker 1: man who looks like he is brainwashing her, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, what is this? And that's how I sort

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Speaker 1: of like it came. And then I just became obsessed,

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Speaker 1: like what is going on with this person? That's why

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Speaker 1: I just rewatched the Vow and I just like I

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Speaker 1: wonder was that a was it at all healing for

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Speaker 1: you guys while you were doing it, or did it

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Speaker 1: just feel like this is a mission we have to

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Speaker 1: you know, like tell me what that experience was like hmm.

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Speaker 2: It was probably different at different times because we shot

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Speaker 2: The Vow like start to finish over a couple of.

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Speaker 3: Years, So, oh, you did it, okay, Okay, Yeah, But I.

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Speaker 2: Would say that there was a time at the beginning

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Speaker 2: when like you know, we didn't know it was going

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Speaker 2: to be The Vowed and I was going to be

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Speaker 2: a documentary in HBO. We didn't know the millions of

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Speaker 2: people would watch it drink COVID. We were filming it

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Speaker 2: partly for protection so that if if right, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Bramfond lawyers were to come after us saying, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're warning people. We're not trying to like dismantle like

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Speaker 2: it's not you can't do torture's interference or whatever it's called.

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Speaker 2: This is us warning people about criminal activity.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: There was that element, and then there was we just

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Speaker 2: need to document, like we don't know what, we don't

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Speaker 2: know what's going to happen, to document everything. And then

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Speaker 2: we realized we had something very you know, special on

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Speaker 2: our hands. As it became like as we were further

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Speaker 2: away from it, and that's when you know, different you know,

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Speaker 2: production companies were swooping in and different offers were on

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Speaker 2: the table. That's when I actually also had a lifetime

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Speaker 2: offer somewhere before that other the lifetime movie was made,

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Speaker 2: and we were just like, but that's not the route

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Speaker 2: I wanted to go, you know, with this with this story.

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Speaker 3: And we you know, we took.

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Speaker 2: Meetings and met people, and ultimately we really trusted the

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Speaker 2: filmmakers hardly because I don't know, if you know this,

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Speaker 2: Johan had taken the director had had taken curriculum.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, I read that right, Yes, yeah, So we

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Speaker 1: knew her.

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Speaker 2: We trusted her, and she was in a training in

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Speaker 2: La with Mark Vicente as he was like waking up,

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Speaker 2: and she was the first one to be like, I

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Speaker 2: think we should just film thisst was just throw a

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Speaker 2: camera on you as you deconstruct your last twelve thirteen years.

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Speaker 3: So and that's the right question. I think, like in

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Speaker 3: most part it was.

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Speaker 2: It was healing because we were connected as a team

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Speaker 2: and we weren't alone, so that was good. There was

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Speaker 2: some strife, you know, there was a time and many

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Speaker 2: times when Nippy was like, I'm done. I don't want

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Speaker 2: to I don't want to do this, I don't.

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Speaker 1: Want to do the series, like I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, just he just don't want to be He's justn't.

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Speaker 2: His line had always been I don't want my trauma

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Speaker 2: to be other people's entertainment understandable. Yeah, and I understood that,

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Speaker 2: and then I was also like this is important, though,

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Speaker 2: but we didn't know how important.

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Speaker 3: And then ultimately, you know, we're all.

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Speaker 2: We're just also happy with how it it turned out

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Speaker 2: and the impacts.

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Speaker 1: It's extraordinary. It's incredibly well made, and it's informative and

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Speaker 1: it's Yes, it is I don't know if entertaining is

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Speaker 1: the right word. It is compelling, I would say compelling. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So let's talk about your actual specific story. So you

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Speaker 1: joined Next Him in two thousand and five, Yes, and

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Speaker 1: it was presented as a personal and professional development company.

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Speaker 1: So what were you looking for at that time in

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Speaker 1: your life or what did you feel like you were

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Speaker 1: missing that that interested you.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think there was things that I

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Speaker 2: was cognizant that I was looking for, and then there

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Speaker 2: was things that I was not aware of, And even

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Speaker 2: to this day, I kind of get new layers of,

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Speaker 2: you know, the underpinnings of subconscious things that were driving me.

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Speaker 3: But I think the main.

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Speaker 2: Thing that I was consciously aware of is that I

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Speaker 2: wasn't where I thought I should be as an actress.

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Speaker 2: Is I'm sure you know who's an actress? Caner late too.

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Speaker 2: At certain times you're like looking at Frenzy going the well,

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Speaker 2: they have this, and.

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Speaker 3: I'm not there and I should be there.

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Speaker 2: But at the same time I was, even though technically

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Speaker 2: I was a working actor at the time, I wasn't

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Speaker 2: feeling fulfilled. And and so friends booking work and being

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Speaker 2: way more successful than me, and they weren't fulfilled.

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Speaker 1: This is the funny thing I think that a lot

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Speaker 1: of people don't get about entertainment, that sometimes it's such

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Speaker 1: a fickle business and it's so difficult, and it's very

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Speaker 1: rare that we get all the things, meaning like you

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Speaker 1: get a job that pays you well, that is fulfilling

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Speaker 1: you creatively, and then you get into this weird place

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Speaker 1: of you. It's always competitive because it's so fickle. It's

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Speaker 1: a hard life that I feel like is We're always

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Speaker 1: going like is it me? What could I be doing?

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Speaker 1: Like why am I not getting.

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Speaker 3: X, Y and Z one hundred percent?

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Speaker 2: All of that strife and then inner turboil mixed with

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Speaker 2: like I was twenty sixth tring twenty seven, so that's

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Speaker 2: kind of a pivotal age looking for my purpose, wondering

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Speaker 2: if acting was the purpose, and also community, like I

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Speaker 2: felt like the acting community of Vancouver, while it has

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Speaker 2: definitely was very positive in some ways, I also was

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Speaker 2: caddy and didn't really feel like that, you know, those

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Speaker 2: were my peoples looking for you know, looking for people belonging.

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Speaker 2: And then I think emotionally, things I wasn't aware of

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Speaker 2: at the time was how much that that belonging desire

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Speaker 2: was rooted.

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Speaker 3: And like, you know, I wasn't popular growing up.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of close friends in high school,

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Speaker 2: so there was sort of like that layer and then

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Speaker 2: also layers of that I think are very common of

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Speaker 2: like I wanted to feel special and feel valuable, and

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Speaker 2: you know that was something that was very much dangled

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Speaker 2: and given to me to keep me going after I

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Speaker 2: got involved. But I think like all of those things

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Speaker 2: were perfect storm. And it's actually something that we talk

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Speaker 2: about now when we have people along a little bit

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Speaker 2: culty is figuring out what was going on for you

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Speaker 2: when you joined emotionally physically. What we call situational vulnerability

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Speaker 2: is like a lot of people join when they're I'm

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Speaker 2: at a crossroads, new new town, new career, post divorce,

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Speaker 2: and they're feeling lonely or looking for answers or looking

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Speaker 2: for structure.

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Speaker 3: Oh that was something I didn't I miss.

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Speaker 2: I was raised like culturally Jewish, atheist, celebrating Christmas, you know,

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Speaker 2: like so it was everything, Yeah, a bit of a

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Speaker 2: hodge hodgepodge, like with the with the candle for on

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Speaker 2: the manora, had a Christmas tree, had a Buddha in

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Speaker 2: my bedside table, like I had a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that I lacked like an internal

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Speaker 2: structure of you know a lot of people have when

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Speaker 2: they grew up in a religious context. I didn't have

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Speaker 2: that in it, but I kind of.

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Speaker 1: Got singular grounding, like a yeah, a real you know

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Speaker 1: so word I'm looking for like a post a real like.

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Speaker 3: You're like a guidebook on how to live, you know

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: And I really do feel like nextim offered me that

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Speaker 2: and I was like, oh, this is this is it,

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Speaker 2: this is everything, the secrets to life, and I was

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Speaker 2: I didn't I wasn't aware that I was looking for that,

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Speaker 2: but I feel like when it was given to me,

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, relieved.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that every anyone can identify with that

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Speaker 1: feeling of I was just my in talking to my

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Speaker 1: producers before we started. I thought about this moment for

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Speaker 1: myself because you know, I think everybody does need to

371
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Speaker 1: think about is it possible? Like could I how? Cause

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Speaker 1: you don't walk into this place going I can't wait

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Speaker 1: to join a cull like I'm looking for a cult?

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Speaker 1: Are you guys open? You know it's not what people

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Speaker 1: are doing. And I remember I was maybe twenty in

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Speaker 1: New York City, had been going in for this play

377
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Speaker 1: at Lincoln Center. Very big deal for me, and I

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Speaker 1: have like six or seven weeks of auditions. It's very prompt.

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Speaker 1: Theater director Robert Falls It was an Eric Bogosian play.

380
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Speaker 1: I was like ecstatic, and I thought, oh my god,

381
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Speaker 1: I'm getting this job. You know, like, I'm getting this job.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be the first really big thing I do.

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Speaker 1: I go in for the final callback and I leave

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Speaker 1: Lincoln Center and immediately they tell me I did. My

385
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Speaker 1: agent calls is like, you didn't get the job. I

386
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Speaker 1: was beside myself, right and I'm there, I am. I'm

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Speaker 1: like crying in the street. I get on the subway

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Speaker 1: to go back downtown to my apartment, and this lovely

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Speaker 1: woman walks up to me. I was I think twenty

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty, and she was probably thirty, and she was

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Speaker 1: just like, are you okay? And I said I'm not,

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Speaker 1: and I just like I was so taken it back

393
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Speaker 1: that she was so kind, and I kept crying and

394
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Speaker 1: I said, you know, I'm I'm okay. I'm just I'm

395
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Speaker 1: just really frustrated.

396
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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: And she put her hand on me and said, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'd love to help you. I'd love to have you

399
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Speaker 1: come come join us. We've got a great community. And

400
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 1: she gives me a Scientology flyer, and I thankfully knew

401
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 1: someone who had gotten wrapped in Scientology already, and I

402
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: like looked at her and I was like, sister, like,

403
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,760
Speaker 1: that's not going to help me, you know. And if

404
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Speaker 1: I hadn't known, if I hadn't actually known someone who

405
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:23,119
Speaker 1: already had sort of been, you know, tantalized by that organization,

406
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Speaker 1: I don't I think I would have just been like,

407
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 1: I'd love to have a coffee, you know, like, yeah,

408
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,400
Speaker 1: I'd love to talk with you because I'm broken right now,

409
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Speaker 1: you know.

410
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Speaker 3: Yeah.

411
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 2: That's such a great example of a situational vulnerability right place,

412
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,520
Speaker 2: right time. And for most people, they they're not.

413
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Speaker 3: They might brush up.

414
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 2: Against somebody like that, like a random recruiter, but they're

415
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Speaker 2: not in a moment of brokenness.

416
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Speaker 3: Right or the other way around.

417
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 2: They're in a moment of brokenness and they don't cross

418
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 2: paths with the recruiter. But for everybody else, it's just

419
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Speaker 2: that that magic perfect storm, perfect storm.

420
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Speaker 1: So let's talk about the main characters here again, because

421
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,480
Speaker 1: I know who this is, but maybe some people don't.

422
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:12,680
Speaker 1: The leader who's Keith R. Nieri, and he, you know,

423
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: he's portrayed as being charismatic and very persuasive and clearly manipulative.

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Speaker 1: I've heard many women describe him and I correct me.

425
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Speaker 1: I think you as well when you first met him

426
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Speaker 1: that you know, he was a little creepy or a

427
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: little weird. And you know, so what was your first

428
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,280
Speaker 1: experience with him, and if it was that, how did

429
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Speaker 1: you kind of brush that instinct aside?

430
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Speaker 2: I believe it was at volleyball, and actually there's a

431
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Speaker 2: little clip of it, I think in the vow where

432
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Speaker 2: we're talking at volleyball. I believe that was the first time.

433
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Speaker 2: So we've been in two thousandmmer of two thousand and five,

434
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Speaker 2: and I had a great respect for him because of

435
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Speaker 2: all the growth I thought I was achieving in xt CM,

436
00:22:58,240 --> 00:22:59,440
Speaker 2: so I had him on a bit of a pedestal.

437
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 2: But when I met him, I mean he's so he's

438
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,120
Speaker 2: very short, yeah right, he's like five, like maybe an

439
00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 2: inchur too taller than me and five four. He's kind

440
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,720
Speaker 2: of stocky, and he was, you know, wearing knee pads

441
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 2: and that at that time, it was before his grand makeover,

442
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: and he was very straggly who looked at a bit

443
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 2: of a like Jesus vibe.

444
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know that changed.

445
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: He looked like a little mushroom. That's what I thought, Yeah, mushroom.

446
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I like that Nippy called him him. My

447
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,960
Speaker 2: husband called him a dirty laundry bag. But that's better,

448
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,120
Speaker 2: that's way better. That's his mushroom in a dirty laundry bag.

449
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,920
Speaker 2: I don't know, but I you know, I remember thinking

450
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:40,240
Speaker 2: that he just seemed like a normal, nerdy, schlubby dude,

451
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 2: is what I thought. And in fact, later as I

452
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,400
Speaker 2: would come to watch him do money forums and speaking,

453
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 2: Nancy would always introduce him, and then she would come

454
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 2: on stage afterwards and be like, you know, who's seeing

455
00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: Vanguard for the first time, and some because there was

456
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 2: a new people right like, and they raise their hands,

457
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 2: and she would ask him to say them to say

458
00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: what they thought, and somebody would always say like, hey,

459
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,120
Speaker 2: it just seems so like normal, I guess, And then

460
00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 2: she would say, isn't that amazing that he's able to

461
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: bring himself to our level so he's approachable and like

462
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 2: get into rapport with us, Like that's you know, what

463
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: a twist.

464
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,879
Speaker 1: What a twist. But so this is my question, like,

465
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: at what point do you see, Okay, they're talking about

466
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: this man as if he is a deity, as if

467
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: he is a god in some way, and that immediately

468
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: sounds like something is out of sorts here, like when

469
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 1: when did you sort of So I've also read that

470
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: people that the five day is maybe you can't like

471
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 1: that's like sort of one of the first things people do,

472
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: or you can write it's like a seminar for five days.

473
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 1: And I heard read several people saying, you know, wait

474
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,680
Speaker 1: until the third day and then something really changes. And

475
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: to me that says, just wait until you let yourself

476
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: be a little bit brainwashed and and then you'll get it.

477
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

478
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And that was set to me in my first

479
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 2: few days. That was very resistant and had so many

480
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 2: red flags.

481
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 3: But A, I couldn't get my money back.

482
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: B I wanted part of me wanted to please Mark

483
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: and work with Mark, and you know, Mark was my point.

484
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,399
Speaker 3: He was my point personally.

485
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody else in the training of my

486
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: boyfriend at the time, and I was on the phone

487
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: with him and he's like, I know, it's weird. I

488
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 2: thought it was weird too, just you know, stick stick

489
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 2: with it.

490
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 3: Third day.

491
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 2: So A, I'm opened that the third day is going

492
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 2: to be mind blowing, mind blowing.

493
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 3: But I also didn't know.

494
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 2: That you can basically replace people's you know, fundamental belief

495
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 2: system if they're open in like two or three days.

496
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: I didn't know this at the time. I didn't know

497
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 3: anything about.

498
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: Indoctrination or experts called mind control, brainwashing, whatever you want

499
00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: to call it. I think my big first shift was

500
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: on the third day. It is set that the five

501
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 2: day was set up for that to to like have

502
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 2: foundational concepts Monday, Tuesday, first and second day, and then

503
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 2: the middle day. You know, if people were open and

504
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: they were doing the process, they would have some big

505
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: AHAs about their life. But by day five I was like,

506
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: this is amazing. I want all my friends to do it.

507
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 3: I mean I was. I was a zelot by day five.

508
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 3: I always recruited. Yeah, wow, Yeah, I had no doubts.

509
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 2: I had no doubts like at that point other than like,

510
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: you know, the sashes were a bit tacky. It didn't

511
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: like the parasuits, Nancy's eyebrows are weird.

512
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 3: Like there's things I didn't like.

513
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Well, it's really funny how we can or one can

514
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: take all these things again. Like it feels like this

515
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,159
Speaker 1: systematic breaking down of your instincts right rather, it's like

516
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 1: telling you your instincts are wrong, Like you can see

517
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 1: all these things that you find a little bit strange

518
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: or not important or even oppressive, but you sort of

519
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: will just like let it go by.

520
00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:55,560
Speaker 3: Yes, you let it go by.

521
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 2: And part of it is that there's this element of like,

522
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: you know, if you go to someone house and they say,

523
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 2: we take off our shoes here, and you're wearing like

524
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: cute boots that go with your outfit, you're like, oh,

525
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: that's annoying, but like it's their house, so you take

526
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: off their shoes.

527
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's such a good example.

528
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, yeah, So that's so much of what the

529
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: first few days were like, and they brilliantly were very

530
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 2: clear that you know, we're here to get our money's worth,

531
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 2: we're here to grow, we're here to.

532
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,960
Speaker 3: Look at our stuff. You know, let's you might as well,

533
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:26,119
Speaker 3: And it's totally normal.

534
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: Like in therapy, if you're looking at yourself, it's uncomfortable

535
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: and you're going to feel uncomfortable.

536
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 3: So when you feel.

537
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 2: Uncomfortable and we just we're just talking about things, we're

538
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: just putting.

539
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 3: This piece of fabric around your neck.

540
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,959
Speaker 2: If you can't talk about that, then like you know,

541
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 2: clearly there's something internally going on.

542
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: We're going to look at it. If you leave, we'll

543
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 3: never look at it.

544
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: And so if you're uncomfortable, we ask you to sit

545
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: and work through it and figure out what it is.

546
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: And by the way, if you're uncomfortable with the sashes,

547
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: you're probably have some suppressive, suppressive issues. You don't like

548
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: to patritute for what people have built before you. You

549
00:27:57,560 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 2: might be a bit envious, and those are things we

550
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,200
Speaker 2: need to work through so that you learned to kind

551
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: of like, well, I don't want to be that, So

552
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: sashes are fine, right, things like that, right.

553
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, like questioning all of your thoughts, which again is

554
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: this it's such a manipulation, like a bastardization of being

555
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 1: self questioning and self reflective, you know, which are great

556
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: qualities to have, and this is just such a manipulation

557
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: of it. Okay, so you're going along with all of this,

558
00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: and you became very successful in this organization in terms

559
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 1: of meaning you were you climbed up the ladder, and

560
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: you were financially successful and brought other people into this.

561
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 1: So what did you know because so much of what

562
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: everyone says is like, oh, you know, we were doing

563
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 1: all these great things for everyone, and everyone was so successful.

564
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 1: But what did that really look like because you had

565
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 1: were you did you decide I don't want to be

566
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: an actress anymore? Were you still pursuing other things in

567
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: your life? And was this what did the success quote

568
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,440
Speaker 1: unquote look like at that time, at the at the

569
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: height for you of positivity.

570
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: There was different stages my first few years, my first

571
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: four years, I actually wasn't making money. I was just

572
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: taking classes and I saw results very quickly in my acting.

573
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: I was still acting for the first while. I got

574
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: an independent film.

575
00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: That was interesting. Okay, so that was.

576
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: Really cool because I always wanted to go to Toronto Film

577
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: International Film Festival.

578
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 3: Who those who don't know who Tiff is? There is

579
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: who did?

580
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: Sorry, yeah, those who don't. It's a great festival. It's

581
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 1: a very well respected international festival.

582
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and that was super exciting. But I actually one

583
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,240
Speaker 2: of the first things I did with the tools. I

584
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 2: say that in air quotes if anyone's not watching, because

585
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: that's just what we called it, is work on my

586
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 2: audition terms because that was something that I felt very

587
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 2: limited by. I got very out of body and not

588
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 2: present when I auditioned, and I couldn't control it. And

589
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: that was the first thing I worked on and I

590
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 2: got results, and so I was booking more. But then

591
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 2: I hit a point after about four or five years

592
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 2: when I did start to make money, and it was

593
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: starting to be in conflict with my auditions and doing movies.

594
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: And I had a small recurring role and one calls

595
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 2: the Heart, and it was like in conflict with all

596
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 2: these other projects I was doing with Next Team, and

597
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 2: I kind of feel like I had to make a decision.

598
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: But at the same time, it was it was never

599
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 2: told to me.

600
00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: Like you have to quit acting.

601
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 2: It was more just like I knew that this was

602
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: important to me and that I couldn't really do both.

603
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 3: And also, you know.

604
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 2: What's more important helping people out in the world and

605
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 2: their life and you know, changing the world one person

606
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: at a time and perhaps creating a world, creating world

607
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: peace or a Hallmark movie.

608
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: You know. So I totally get that quandary, right, Yes.

609
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: So if I mean, if it was what it was

610
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 2: supposed to be, then I feel like I made the

611
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: right decision, and it was, but it was a lie,

612
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 2: so that was a bad decision. But at the time

613
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 2: I felt very clear that this was more important, and.

614
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 3: My acting started to go off to the wayside. So

615
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 3: when I went to answer your to.

616
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 2: Your question, though, I was kind of the poster child.

617
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 2: I think because I had such a big network in

618
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: Vancouver and I brought so many people in and they

619
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 2: in turn brought so many people in, and I was

620
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 2: in charge of the center.

621
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: I now was.

622
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: Making money and didn't feel like I didn't have the

623
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 2: same pull towards acting because I was my my purpose.

624
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 3: Cup was feeling fulfilled.

625
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 2: Yes, in terms of success, like I sold my Honda

626
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: Civic and bought a brand new Mini Cooper and convertible,

627
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,239
Speaker 2: and I was like, I have a new car, I

628
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 2: was able to purchase my first home, Like there was

629
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 2: material financial success that was proof.

630
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 3: And also like I was happier. I would I thought

631
00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,720
Speaker 3: I was happier. I thought I was happier.

632
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: I was. That's right, because you're actually feeling productive, like

633
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: you've created something, You've done something on your own agency

634
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: over certain things in your life. And yes, so at that,

635
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: at what point did DOS be? So for people who

636
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: don't know DOS is it's essentially it translates into dominance

637
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 1: over your slave or master over slave women. Is that right?

638
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 3: And nobody really knows?

639
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: Nobody knows, but it's described as a secret sisterhood.

640
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 2: Yes, but I just had a thought before we get

641
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: into that. When you're asking about what success looked like,

642
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 2: I also have to say that it was at the peak,

643
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 2: like peak Nexium before things got weird, which was like

644
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:43,320
Speaker 2: sort of the.

645
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: Last four years, the middle four years.

646
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: Was there for twelve you know. There was also like

647
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 2: we were you know, we were head open to a

648
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: center in la We were down in Las Veelas and

649
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 2: like Lindsay Lohem's former home, we were I was looking

650
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 2: on a private jet to Alaska.

651
00:32:58,320 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 3: It was glamorous, and.

652
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: I was helping people, like we legitimately felt like we

653
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: were helping people.

654
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: And I still do to this day believe that the

655
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 3: five day.

656
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: Training, if it was taught by people who had good

657
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: intentions like Keith and Nancy weren't in the room, could

658
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 2: be transformative for people if they were wanting to look

659
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: at their lives and have some you know, dig into

660
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: their psyche and look at things that they could take

661
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 2: more responsibility for and like you said, feel more autonomous

662
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: and have better communication. Like all those things were great.

663
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 2: It was like jam pack therapy. Mm hm.

664
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 3: That's great in and of itself.

665
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,719
Speaker 2: Is great, but in there it's also tools for future abuse.

666
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: Just have to make this caveat if people were to continue.

667
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: Right right, And there are a lot of origins. I mean,

668
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: I think of there was something called the Forum that

669
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: was you know, landmark for like all of those things

670
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: that you know there are elements that can be very

671
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: useful and very helpful, but then the like leaning on

672
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: those things and thinking you can't function without them and

673
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: then turning like it becomes a little bit of a

674
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: shady area until it completely exact spirals.

675
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 2: And the Landmark Form, which I know is huge in LA,

676
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: was always our competitor there because interesting landmark And I

677
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: was like, no, that's like the McDonald's of personal growth,

678
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 2: and we're the Garlet Food of personal growth. Yes, so

679
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,439
Speaker 2: you have private jets, Yeah, we have private jets.

680
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: We're very fancy. But it's the same thing.

681
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: And we've since done lots of deep dives on a

682
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 2: little bit culty. It's Landmark form is like nexium light

683
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 2: and it's all the same stuff. And like just as

684
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:35,960
Speaker 2: an example, so people, this is like a red flag

685
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: teaching moment, you know, teaching people for example like personal

686
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: responsibility vac same data, the form, did it. Yes, it's

687
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: great something happens in your life instead of victimizing yourself.

688
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 3: Okay, what's my part in this?

689
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 1: What did I not know that I know?

690
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 3: Now?

691
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 2: What would I do differently? That's a huge pivotal perception shift.

692
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: If somebody doesn't have that, great Now if they continue

693
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 2: and they make one of the things I always say,

694
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 2: I was.

695
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, go do that.

696
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: Take the tools, put them in your life. Don't make

697
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,319
Speaker 2: the tools your life. Don't dedicate yourself fully, which is

698
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 2: my mistake, Like if I think of it, just done

699
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:10,880
Speaker 2: a little bit of nexim and then going back to acting.

700
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: I mean, God, who knows where I'd be now, I

701
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,080
Speaker 2: have no idea. I can't think about that.

702
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 3: I'll be depressed.

703
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: In twenty seventeen, Yes, you're invited into this sisterhood by

704
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: Laurence Falsman, who is not only your bridesmaids, who is

705
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: a very dear friend, Nancy, who is the co head

706
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: with Keith. It's her daughter. So you obviously respect her

707
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 1: and love her and tell me about that how that happened?

708
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 3: And yeah, I.

709
00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: Mean that part of the story is so complicated and complex,

710
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: and one of the reasons why I wrote s guard

711
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: is so that it would be in order even to

712
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: this day, I like where there's a civil case and

713
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: they were asking me questions, I'm like, I don't even remember.

714
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: I had to go back to the book, like, oh no,

715
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 2: this happened, and then this happened, and then this happened,

716
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: and then this happened. Because there's a lot of stuff

717
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 2: regarding blackmail, they called it collateral gathering.

718
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: You know, this is what I want to talk about,

719
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: the collateral. I want to talk with collateral because I

720
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: also heard Keith out of his I just love also

721
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: that he's such an egomaniac that he wanted himself recorded

722
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: all the time, Like thank goodness, there is tape of

723
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 1: him saying that commitment has to be collateralized. That statement

724
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: in and of itself is totally insane in my opinion,

725
00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: because that means that your own word doesn't mean anything,

726
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: like it's not enough, or your commitment to yourself or

727
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: your believe yourself is not enough. So talk to us

728
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:46,760
Speaker 1: about the collateral en doss specifically, yeah.

729
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: And collateralization.

730
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 2: It's like when you just said what Keith said, like that,

731
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: I know it's insane, but it's also totally that would

732
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 2: have been totally normal because we'd been doing collateral related

733
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 2: things for at least three to four years before DOS

734
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 2: was even introduced. So when people hear about DOS and

735
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: how it's explained, they'd be like, well, why would you

736
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: do that?

737
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 3: Like that's so dumb.

738
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 2: But everything that was a part of it was kind

739
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 2: of already in the framework of what we believed and

740
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 2: also so, oh man, this is so complicated.

741
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 3: But basically.

742
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:23,720
Speaker 2: She invited me to join a secret society, but before

743
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: she even told me what it was, I had to

744
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: give her collateral to.

745
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 3: Back up my word that I would never speak about it.

746
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 3: So it was it'd be.

747
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: Secret, And you didn't think that that was extreme or weird.

748
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 2: I mean, it was extreme, but it wasn't weird. I

749
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: guess I was like, nobody had ever done anything like

750
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 2: that with me. And also I guess part of it

751
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 2: for me is that all the stuff that had everything

752
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 2: had become a bit more amped up collateral. People were

753
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: doing penance, which is a religious thing, which I wasn't

754
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 2: raised religious, so I didn't know that that's something that

755
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 2: people did like in real life, in their realige, and like,

756
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 2: I'm going to do a penance for the sin or whatever,

757
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: so very Catholic of his raised Catholic, very Catholic. Yeah,

758
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: so people were doing things like oh, I said I

759
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: wasn't going to eat chocolate, and I did, and so

760
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 2: now I'm going to plank in the snow at three

761
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 2: am for ten minutes.

762
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:20,359
Speaker 1: Like right, it's amazing that this is all Keith driven. Right,

763
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,879
Speaker 1: that he's telling people and then via via I'm sure

764
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,160
Speaker 1: that the women and then in turn told one another.

765
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 1: But I read something where he said there was a

766
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: woman that was harming herself, engaging in self harm, and

767
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:41,360
Speaker 1: she came to him and he said, you know, you what,

768
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:43,680
Speaker 1: what's what commitment do you have to stop doing this?

769
00:38:43,840 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 1: And she, you know, said that she was going to

770
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 1: stop or something, and he said, well that that commitment

771
00:38:49,920 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: isn't sufficiently important enough, so we're going to have to

772
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: do something more. And then it's like weight control, and

773
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: which is the whole. I mean, as a former anorexic,

774
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,680
Speaker 1: I this is like red flags up the yin yang

775
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: for me, especially if a man is telling you what's

776
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: your weight? How are you? You know? Sorry, I'm stepping

777
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: on you because I'm like I can't get I can't

778
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: just like I can't believe some of this.

779
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 3: It's terrible.

780
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:22,960
Speaker 2: It's terrible, and just the quick sidebar like I definitely,

781
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:27,120
Speaker 2: I think in retrospect, was like orthorexic at certain times,

782
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 2: you know, and was obsessed. But I never counted calories

783
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: and I never barfed, and I and I but every

784
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 2: time I went to Albany, everyone was so focused on

785
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,640
Speaker 2: being thin and like you know, weighing their food or

786
00:39:38,680 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: doing different diets.

787
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:41,760
Speaker 3: And I always thought that it was weird.

788
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 2: I had no idea Keith was instructing them.

789
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,799
Speaker 1: Because you obviously you're you. You can't think properly when

790
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: you are deprived of nutrition, So that's a part of it, right,

791
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: Like you can't think, and it becomes obsessive about any

792
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: particular thing, whether it's raised, weighing the food or what

793
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: you are aren't eating like all of those things. It

794
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 1: just it's a mind control and it dominates everything. And

795
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: then it's just easier for you to be impressionable, you know,

796
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 1: and to want to please him. So what was the

797
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: So you are invited to join this by Lauren and

798
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,719
Speaker 1: you had to give her collateral? What is the collateral

799
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: that you had to give her?

800
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 2: The first collateral I gave her was written confession about

801
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: like things that I wouldn't want the public to know,

802
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,720
Speaker 2: like things I'd done in my twenties. And I wrote

803
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 2: it down and then she took a picture and said

804
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,680
Speaker 2: it to someone and told me it wasn't bad enough,

805
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: wasn't like detrimental enough.

806
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 3: So I and I was like, well, I.

807
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,799
Speaker 2: Have a good girl of a pretty clean record other

808
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: than those few things. Maybe just wouldn't want my parents

809
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 2: to know, uh kind of thing, although my mom pretty

810
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:51,719
Speaker 2: much knows everything in my life.

811
00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,319
Speaker 3: Anyway, And so I had to embellish it.

812
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 2: And so I wrote something worse with lies that she

813
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:57,479
Speaker 2: doesn't even have to be true.

814
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 3: It's just something that.

815
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 2: I'm going to hold so that you'll know that you'll

816
00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: never speak of, thank god, I know.

817
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 3: So yeah, and I felt very.

818
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: Uncomfortable and I told her that, and she said that's perfect,

819
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: that's the point, right, Yeah, you want to feel uncomfortable

820
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:12,959
Speaker 2: to make sure that you would never, you know, break

821
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 2: your word, right, And and then she told me about it,

822
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: and there was all these there's all these steps and

823
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,160
Speaker 2: I can't recall the order she told me, but it

824
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: was like she definitely set it up in a way

825
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: that there was elements of it that were exciting.

826
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 3: It was a badass boot camp for women.

827
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 2: It was going to be a group of women and

828
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 2: we're going to you know, work on our goals in

829
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: a much more higher level of accountability and checking in

830
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 2: than we ever have with Nexium. It's just women, women only,

831
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: and some people are in Nextium, some are not. It's

832
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: not like tied to it at all. And it's like,

833
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:47,759
Speaker 2: you know, the men have freemasons and where we have

834
00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:51,440
Speaker 2: this and like it's international and it's super amazing and

835
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: it's exciting and it's a sorority and I'd never been

836
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 2: in a sorority, and I like.

837
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 3: There was that element was kind of fun for me.

838
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 1: Sure, And it feeds like you're you're like having an

839
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 1: even more intimate community, which is what you wanted, what

840
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: we all want in some capacity. So it's like a

841
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,200
Speaker 1: deeper belief that it's going to bring you deeper into

842
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 1: what you want to do and become more powerful and.

843
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:19,400
Speaker 3: All that stuff.

844
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: And in retrospect, I also think that Keith knew that

845
00:42:23,239 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: I was slipping away because I had, you know, I

846
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 2: had had at this point, I gotten married to Nippy,

847
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 2: who I think was a huge threat to Keith And

848
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:35,240
Speaker 2: for those who don't know, he's like my husband Pick College.

849
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 3: In football, he was the quarterback.

850
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,800
Speaker 2: He's very handsome, he's built, he's funny, he's a history major.

851
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: He's like an.

852
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: Incredible all the things that Keith is not.

853
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: Not Yes, exactly, and I was married to him and

854
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,680
Speaker 2: we had a baby and those things were more important.

855
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 3: And we're slowly pulling me away.

856
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: Okay, so we are really just starting to scratch the

857
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: surface here in this conversation. So Sarah will be back

858
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,040
Speaker 1: with us for our next episode.

859
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:11,359
Speaker 2: HM