WEBVTT - COP29 talks are at an impasse. Brazil is already looking to COP30 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:01.240 Welcome to Zero. 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:05.120 I am akshatrati this week good Cop, bad Cop. 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:06.600 I had to use it sometimes. 0:00:20.160 --> 0:00:22.120 I'm in Baku, Yes, still in Baku. 0:00:22.200 --> 0:00:23.120 For COP twenty nine. 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:26.480 It's week two, which means the biggest heads of state 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:30.640 have gone home, as have many climate celebrities like al 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.960 Gore and Theresa May. Now negotiators are getting down to business. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.200 We are still days away from knowing what agreement, if any, 0:00:39.280 --> 0:00:42.400 might be reached, and Zero will come to you with 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.159 how it all went down next week. In the meantime, 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:49.479 there are already questions about what the next COP might 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.839 look like, and for good reasons. As we explode in 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.720 a previous episode, the small state of Azerbaijan has had 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:01.240 its hands full in hosting fifty thousand delegates and advocates 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.960 who arrived in Baku from around the world. Next year, 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:10.200 Brazil will play host, but not in Rio or Sa Paolo. Instead, 0:01:10.840 --> 0:01:13.280 the conference is said to be in the city of Belem, 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:18.080 the gateway to the Amazon, a beautiful coastal city that 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:22.240 might not have the infrastructure to host fifty thousand people. 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:25.600 But Brazil has been trying to position itself as a 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.640 leader on climate, and it warns people who come to 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:33.720 COP thirty to realize what's on the line. But Brazil 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.000 is also growing. It's all in gas production and quickly 0:01:37.400 --> 0:01:41.720 reaching levels that match the United Arab Emirates. So I 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.240 was eager to catch up with Andre Corea the Lago, 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.720 Brazil's Secretary for Climate, Energy and the Environment. He's rumored 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.200 to be the next COP president, something he wouldn't confirm 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:55.320 on the record, but he wasn't shy in answering just 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.200 how much Brazil has to do to make COP thirty 0:01:58.200 --> 0:02:02.400 a success, from challenging the sticks to fracture in geopolitics 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.560 and what COP twenty nine must get right to give 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:25.280 Brazil a better footing. Andre, welcome to the show. 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:27.600 Hello, it's lovely to be here. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:31.160 Now tell us what Brazil is hoping to get out 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:33.320 of COP twenty nine specifically. 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:37.400 Yeah, Look, you know that one of the basic principles 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:42.959 of brazil foreign policy is to strengthen multilateralism. So we want, 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:45.160 obviously COP twenty nine. 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:46.440 To be very successful. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.000 We believe in UNFCCC, we believe in the Paris Accord, 0:02:50.639 --> 0:02:53.480 and we have to show the world that this is 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.120 the right way of doing things. 0:02:56.800 --> 0:02:58.560 And at coptery nine there are going to be two 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:01.320 things that need to be worked on. One it seems 0:03:01.360 --> 0:03:03.600 has already been worked on, which is Article six. Are 0:03:03.680 --> 0:03:05.440 you happy with the Article six outcome? 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:08.360 I think that to have an outcome is already a 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.959 very good news. I like quite a lot the solution, 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.000 but now we have to transform it into something practical 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:20.440 because the problem is that we've been thinking about that 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:26.240 for nine years and we saw that in general, carbon 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.760 markets and everything else have been very complicated in recent years, 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.600 and I think that this decision will be extremely important 0:03:33.639 --> 0:03:36.400 to put some order into that. We think that this 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:38.120 is a very important step. 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:40.840 So you know that among the things that we approved 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:46.680 our possibility of old credits being grandfathered into the Article 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:51.200 six program, and they could be on sale as soon 0:03:51.240 --> 0:03:55.040 as January one, twenty twenty five. And many of those 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:59.800 old credits, vast majority of them are renewable energy credits, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.320 which many experts have said are junk and really should 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:07.720 not have been allowed to grandfather into a new market 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:10.360 that is hoping to be quite credible so that it 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.000 can sustain and it can grow. Are you not worried 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.320 about the credibility of the old offsets? 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:21.320 Look, we need to have environmental integrity in that operation, 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:26.520 or we're going to destroy the already battered carbon market. 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:32.440 Carbon markets I think can be amazing, but it's true 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.599 that these years have been very confusing, so we have 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:40.000 to analyze that and somehow. You know, in a negotiation, 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:44.480 for good things to pass, sometimes you need other things 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:45.560 also to pass. 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:47.080 So let's see. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.800 How we can manage that. We are very concerned with 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.440 forestry credits because we believe that they are the most 0:04:55.440 --> 0:05:00.120 important credits possible, because as we know, restoration of for 0:05:00.279 --> 0:05:06.440 us are probably today the most science supported form of 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:11.039 sink that you can create, and these credits, for instance, 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:15.680 have been very much discredited. I'm sorry for using the 0:05:15.720 --> 0:05:20.000 word and this is absurd because if you believe in 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:25.560 urgency to fight climate change, you need to do the 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.800 best possible things as soon as possible. It's useless also 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.960 to try to do the perfect system if we know 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:35.480 that we have very few years ahead of us. So 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:38.880 let's try to be ambitious and at the same time 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.880 to be practical and not to be unhappy in three 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:46.000 years when we discovered that we could have done many things. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:48.440 Some of them may fail, some of them may not 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:53.680 have environmental integrity. But let's concentrate on the majority. They 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.520 try to have the overwhelming majority of what do we 0:05:56.640 --> 0:05:58.720 do with environmental integrity. 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.839 The second thing on the agenda is the new Quantified 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:07.719 Goal on Climate finance, and that is crucial for developing 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.480 countries like Brazil, like India, but so many other developing 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:17.760 countries to step up their climate actions. And without a 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:22.960 good outcome on a larger amount of money supporting the 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:27.719 action of developing countries, you're not likely to get very 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:33.040 ambitious targets set under the nationally determined contributions, and that 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:36.279 will have so many downstream impacts. It will affect COP thirty, 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.520 which is going to come to Brazil. So on NCQG, 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.400 where do you think things stand right now and how 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:47.400 much of an ambitious deal could we get? 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:50.040 We're not in the right direction. 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.720 That I think is quite clear, and I think that 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:59.640 we have to understand the Convention. Although we are all 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:04.120 de developing countries under a certain category in the Convention, 0:07:04.240 --> 0:07:08.560 but the truth is that you have some very low 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:13.000 income countries that really need full support. That it's even 0:07:13.040 --> 0:07:16.600 absurd to think that they have to mitigate when they 0:07:16.640 --> 0:07:20.560 are absolutely not responsible for emissions and they have to 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:22.840 take care of schools, they have to take care of 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:27.000 health and other things, and their action is not going 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.840 to have such a big impact because they emit very little. 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.120 It's very unfair somehow. And then you have the middle 0:07:34.160 --> 0:07:39.040 income developing countries like Brazil, like Indonesia, like India, and 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:42.840 we can do a lot to mitigate climate change, and 0:07:42.920 --> 0:07:46.360 we are doing a lot to mitigate climate change, and 0:07:46.560 --> 0:07:50.680 the sums that we're talking about under the NCQG is 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.440 very far from what we know is reality. Most of 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:56.800 the studies have been showing that we're going to need 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:01.600 trillians and we're talking about some one hundred billions that 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:04.160 are very necessary. I'm not going to say they are 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:09.440 not necessary, but they are not the full solution. And 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:14.360 then you have to organize the finance in a way 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:18.480 that it can fulfill the needs of the lower income countries, 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:22.160 which I think the NCQG can deal with that. But 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.600 we need much more money for these middle income countries 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:29.040 to do what they need to do, and this is 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.480 not going to come in the NCQG. I don't see 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:36.080 the developed countries having the same sense of urgency that 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:41.640 they proclaim as climate change. Oh, the PROCLAIMATY is very 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:44.880 close it's very close, but the this urgency is not 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:49.200 in the finances. You don't see the same sense of urgency. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.079 So what do countries like in the Indonesia and Brazil, 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.360 for instance, do Brazil worked on that very hard on 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.800 the G twenty in our presidency of the G twenty, 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:06.559 and how much we have to mainstream climates into investments 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:12.679 in general and not in specific funds. We are huge economies, 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.000 the developing countries that are in the G twenty, and 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.240 we perfectly understand that it's not going to be grants. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:21.040 It's not going to be that that is going to 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:22.080 solve our issue. 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:26.240 The problem is that we pay too much for foreign capital. 0:09:27.040 --> 0:09:30.520 We cannot afford to pay. It's completely absurd that we 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.319 have to pay such a high price to have this capital. 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:36.599 So we have to work on many fields. So the 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:40.120 NCQG is one of them. Is extremely important, but we 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.920 also have to be practical and think that we have 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:45.319 very few years ahead of it. 0:09:45.480 --> 0:09:49.120 Yes, So if I am hearing you right, you're saying NCQG, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.240 the needs are clearly in the trillions, but there is 0:09:53.280 --> 0:09:58.280 very little possibility or political feasibility of the trillions being approved. 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.640 But the hundreds of billions may get approved, and that 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:03.959 means the gap has to be filled in other ways, 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:06.520 and those other ways are what. 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.480 The other ways are the mainstream of the economy. Countries 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:15.080 like Brazil, Indonesia or India, we are very investible countries. 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:17.120 I mean, there are many things to be done in 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:20.520 our countries, and our economies are huge and our population 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:25.280 is huge, and so we have to lower the cost 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:29.839 of capital I think will have an amazing impact. Then 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:35.320 you have also to recognize that countries like ours, including China, 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:39.280 we've been doing so many things inside our country without 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:45.160 foreign support, and this is never taken into consideration. For instance, 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:49.920 fighting deforestation in Brazil, ninety percent of what we spend 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:54.000 is from our budget, is not international support. So this 0:10:54.200 --> 0:10:58.120 recognition of what we're doing and the importance that we 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:02.000 invest in our own effort to combat climate change is 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.679 not taken into consideration. So there is this very strange 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:10.560 idea of increasing the donor base, which is completely getting 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.160 out of the main subject. The main subject is what 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.600 are the developed countries going to provide for the developing 0:11:17.640 --> 0:11:19.920 countries under the rules of the Paris Accord. 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.280 But are there steps that can be taken or are 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:27.520 being taken to lower the cost of capital coming into Brazil, 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:28.800 India and Indonesia. 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:31.200 We are trying in the G twenty. I think that 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:35.360 there was quite a good progress because we put together 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:38.120 for the first time in the G twenty the ministers 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:42.640 of finance and the central bankers talking together with their 0:11:42.920 --> 0:11:46.560 ministers of foreign affairs and ministers of climate. And it 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.839 was quite surprising because even in the developed countries they 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.920 hardly knew each other. So I think this is a progress. 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:58.640 But what really drives us is the sense of urgency, 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:02.760 and the sense of urgency cannot only be in ambition. Yeah, 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:05.360 it has to be finance, it has to be action. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.640 Where is the next G twenty happening. 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:09.000 In South Africa? 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:12.880 So that's great, But I hear that the South African 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.560 economy ministry and the finance ministry do not get on 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:18.760 with each other, so they might not do what you 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.560 did so successfully under the Brazil G twenty. Is that right? 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:24.840 I think that. 0:12:26.679 --> 0:12:30.600 I have to tell you that the biggest differences between 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:34.480 finance ministries and climate ministries that I saw in the 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.960 G twenty was in some European countries. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:43.880 So do you think given the tense negotiations which is 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.080 the case every comp but especially when it comes to money, 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.079 and there's sorts of money. We are talking at COP 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.320 twenty nine. Do you think there will be a deal 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:51.880 at the end? 0:12:53.080 --> 0:12:57.000 I do hope that because I hope that for two reasons, 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.200 First as a citizen of the planet and second because 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.360 Brazil is going to preside the next COP, so we 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.480 need a successful COP twenty nine. 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.439 So between now and the next COP, Donald Trump is 0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:14.520 going to come to power, and he has said that 0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:16.520 he will pull the US out of the Paris Agreement, 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.240 which is something he did in his first term in 0:13:19.280 --> 0:13:23.679 twenty seventeen. Last time around, the impact wasn't very much 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.920 because of rules. He only left in November twenty twenty 0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:30.240 and jan twenty twenty one, Joe Biden joined the US 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:33.600 into the Paris Agreement again. This time he can have 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.560 much greater impact because he will leave within a year, 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:38.920 and he could pull the US out of the UN 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:43.280 Climate Treaty altogether. So when you meet your US counterparts 0:13:43.320 --> 0:13:46.200 right now who are from the Biden administration, do you 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:47.160 take them seriously? 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:54.000 I take them very seriously because they are really serious negotiators. 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:59.040 But we have to try to find a new way 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:02.480 of dealing with the US. But we cannot think that 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.640 the US is just the government of the US. The 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:11.480 US is universities, scientists, states, cities, and many of them, 0:14:11.640 --> 0:14:15.040 most of them believe in climate change and believe that 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.200 things have to be done. So if you just take California, 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.720 it's one of the biggest economies in the world. So 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:25.240 if you concentrate your efforts on the sectors of the 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.120 US that can contribute to this debate, it's already a lot. 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.680 It's obvious that it would be much better to have 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:36.320 the whole government together. Now, what I also believe is 0:14:36.360 --> 0:14:42.400 that even the most anti climate personality in America or 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:47.960 whatever will rethink about it if he sees that he 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:53.840 can have profits working with climate change. So see for instance, Texas. 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.880 Texas has become one of the states of the United 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.760 States that uses most renewables, with the wind energy, with 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:06.120 solar energy. Why it's not an ideological decision like people 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:10.840 say that California is. This was exclusively because of the cost, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.760 because it was a good business. So for those who 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:19.640 don't believe in those discussions, let's talk with the language 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:25.120 of business with others. Let's talk with the appropriate language of. 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.240 Chun see there is a deal a chapter twenty nine 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.520 on the NCQG, and then the US pulls out of 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.800 the Paris Agreement. The US is the world's largest economy, 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.800 it would, I believe, have to promise the largest sum 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.040 to be given under the NCQG. If the US gets out, 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:42.640 what happens to the NCQG. 0:15:43.320 --> 0:15:48.240 I think that it would be quite logical not to 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.600 expect the US to be one of the main funders 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:52.840 of the NCQG. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.160 Even now, So going into the deal, you don't think that'll. 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:59.520 Happen, because even if you're negotiating with the bide and administration, 0:15:59.680 --> 0:16:03.480 the truth is that the signs that President Trump has 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.440 already shown are very clear. 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:11.280 And so if what happens at the NSQG and the 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:17.960 US is backtracking from its commitments shows up at COP thirty, 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.760 how are you going to make sure COP thirty is 0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.080 a success. Because the NCQG will be a challenge. Not 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.480 enough countries will have submitted ambitious NDCs. They will look 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.120 at the US, the world's largest historical emitter, and say 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.280 they're out, why should we contribute? And you get into 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.000 a new, bigger fight when you come to COP thirty. 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:40.800 So what are you doing now to avoid that. 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:44.520 Well, I think we cannot avoid that. We have to 0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:47.720 deal with that, and so we'll have to find some 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:54.760 intelligence answers to those intelligent questions. But that is reality. 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:57.880 We have to face reality, like climate change if you 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:00.880 believe in it. So it's a big challenge, there is 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:01.760 no doubt about it. 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:10.680 After the break, more from my conversation with Brazilian Secretary 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.679 for Climate, Energy and the Environment Andre Corea the logo. 0:17:14.760 --> 0:17:15.640 By the way, if you've. 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.840 Been enjoying this episode, please take a moment to rate 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.679 and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:22.320 helps other listeners find the show. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:30.040 Now. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:35.320 Cop thirty is currently scheduled to happen in Bellm. We 0:17:35.520 --> 0:17:39.880 just got attendance figures today and there are expecting fifty 0:17:40.040 --> 0:17:42.760 two thousand people coming to this cup. Now, this is 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.520 the capital of a country. It's a small country, but 0:17:45.560 --> 0:17:47.400 it's the capital of a country, and you are able 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:50.760 to manage that crowd. My understanding is Bellm is a 0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.760 really good place to go to just understand what the 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:58.240 amazon is, but it's not got the capacity to host 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.640 fifty thousand people, let alone eighty thousand people which showed 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.879 up in Dubai. So what is the plan currently for 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:07.960 COP thirty in Brazil? 0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:13.159 In Belem, the plan is to have a COP that 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:19.639 is proportional to what the city can offer, but also 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.359 a COP that will leave a very positive legacy to 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:28.960 the city. So we cannot build pharonic things just for 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.919 a COP. If we are going to improve the city 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.200 for the COP, it's to improve the city itself and 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.720 there will be a legacy for the population. Now, we're 0:18:38.760 --> 0:18:41.760 going to have to do it differently, obviously very differently 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:47.119 than Dubai was or what Baku is operating, but you 0:18:47.200 --> 0:18:51.399 can be sure that we will be very transparent about 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:52.960 what is possible. 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:54.679 To have in Berlin. 0:18:55.440 --> 0:18:58.880 We have a full team of the people that are 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:03.399 organizing the billain here seeing all the challenges that we 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:08.320 will have to face. But the symbolism of having it 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:13.000 in the Amazon, and the fact that Brazil is developing 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:18.800 countries with many success stories but also with huge challenges, 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:22.119 and the fact that Brazil assumes to do it in 0:19:22.200 --> 0:19:27.719 a complex place, I think it has a fantastic political power. 0:19:28.280 --> 0:19:30.960 We are not trying to hide the problems we have 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.600 and as you know, deforestation is our main source of emissions. 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:39.320 We have a very strange profile of emissions. So we 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.360 are taking the world to the place where we have 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:46.080 our biggest source of emission, and we're going to show 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:49.560 to the world how complex the Amazon region is. With 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.080 the best food in Brazil on one side, the most 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:57.679 beautiful natural place you can imagine, but a city that 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.720 still has lots of very strong social challenges. So I 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:05.720 think that it is quite refreshing to have a country. 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.960 Obviously I'm suspicious because I'm Brazilian, but I'm quite proud 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.320 of being a country that doesn't hide its problem. It's 0:20:12.359 --> 0:20:15.159 a country that is showing the world it's problems and 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.440 let's try to work on that. Everybody has its problem 0:20:18.680 --> 0:20:22.679 and we are showing ours very clearly to everybody. 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:24.720 So how many people do you think, well them will 0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:25.920 be able to fit. 0:20:27.080 --> 0:20:31.320 I think that the organizers are working on fifty thousand people. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:35.600 They are working on fifty thousands, but President Lula wants 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:42.239 very strong participation of civil society, so we'll have to 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:46.160 measure how many people. I mean, because the negotiators, as 0:20:46.160 --> 0:20:48.760 you know, is something that doesn't move very much, is 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:52.760 around twenty thousand people. Then you have the UNFCCC staff 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.919 is one hundred, there's like eight hundred two thousand people, 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:01.080 So we're dealing with the realistic numbers. But President Lula 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.359 doesn't want, you know, to let's have less people from 0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:08.480 civil society. No, we need lots of presence and citizens. 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:09.200 Yeah. 0:21:09.280 --> 0:21:14.439 Now Brazil produces more oil than the UAE does, and 0:21:14.520 --> 0:21:19.399 President Lula has asked Petro Brass to produce even more oil. 0:21:19.960 --> 0:21:21.760 How is that going to play in your NBC? 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:28.240 We have to deal with this very, very challenging reality 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:33.359 is that last year Brazil's main expert was oil. So 0:21:33.960 --> 0:21:37.680 from an economic point of view, this is obviously interpreted 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:42.680 by most of the Brazilians as something that we didn't expect. 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:48.320 And this only happened because of the incredible technological progress 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.399 of Petro Brass that is looking for oil in places 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:59.840 that are extremely complex and technologically difficult places to exploit oil. 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:03.280 So there is a part of Brazil that is extremely 0:22:03.400 --> 0:22:07.800 proud of Petrobrias to have found oil in such deep areas. 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.400 And then on the other side, we all are conscious 0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:14.240 that we have to transition away from fossil fuels. So 0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:16.919 this is the big debate we're going to have in 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:20.280 Brazil next year because we have to arrive at COP 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:25.160 thirty lead by example as our Minister of the environment, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:27.720 but in a silver always says so. 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:32.320 Over here, you're hoping there will be a big financing 0:22:32.400 --> 0:22:36.280 push that will hopefully make it possible for countries to 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:42.320 come with new ambitions in bellum at COP thirty. What 0:22:42.440 --> 0:22:45.760 other metrics are you setting for success? First is that 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:49.240 countries need to come up with new ambition with goals 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.959 set out to twenty thirty five and ideally start to 0:22:52.359 --> 0:22:54.679 finally reduce emissions that paces needed. 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:56.600 What are the other priorities? 0:22:57.240 --> 0:22:59.920 I think that to try to make it as simple 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:05.840 as possible, we feel that urgency has to be everywhere 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.840 when we talk about climate change. So this is a 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:14.200 progress in these debates that will make a huge difference. 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:16.720 So it's not only the an f c C. It's 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:21.400 not only the Paris Accord. It's the economy in general. 0:23:21.520 --> 0:23:24.080 It's the behavior of people that have to take into 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:31.040 consideration the urgency, economic theory, ministries of finance, ministries of transportation. 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:34.040 I mean it's not that's the sense of the n 0:23:34.119 --> 0:23:37.960 dissies is that the ndsies create a number that is 0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.680 an objective, and each country is going to find its 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.320 way to reach it, and we have to do it 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:47.639 together because, as you are saying, if the richest country 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:51.240 in the world is going to backtrack maybe on some 0:23:51.320 --> 0:23:54.800 of its commitments, why the others are going to follow. 0:23:54.840 --> 0:23:58.120 So we have to build something really strong in which 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:02.399 the world is con vinced of the urgency. How are 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.760 we going to do that this? I cannot give you 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:06.800 the answer now. 0:24:07.200 --> 0:24:11.359 So in a way, now COP thirty becomes how to 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:15.960 defend the climate consensus even as the US leaves the 0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:16.720 paras of card. 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:19.720 Yeah, but remember that when we say the US is 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:23.160 leaving US, scientists are not living US. 0:24:23.320 --> 0:24:24.639 Business is not living. 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:29.720 And we have to think that the symbolic billionaire that 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:33.960 supports President Trump is eln Musk. Elon Musk is the 0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:37.600 guy that made America fall in love with electric cars. 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:43.400 So there are many dimensions in America. We cannot oversimplify 0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:47.080 what it is. And I mean, if the oil companies 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:53.120 find a way of contributing to the transition away from 0:24:53.240 --> 0:24:57.400 fossil fuels, that would be super welcome. I mean everybody 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:01.879 has to come with solution in their own way, in 0:25:02.000 --> 0:25:07.199 a reasonable with reasonable costs, and with reasonable social costs. 0:25:07.200 --> 0:25:09.480 Because we have seen in some countries that the fight 0:25:09.520 --> 0:25:12.800 against climate change has made some of the basic services 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:15.679 more expensive. This is not the solution. You lose the 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:18.080 support of the population for this fight. 0:25:18.359 --> 0:25:20.880 So I'm looking forward to the new Brazil climate plan. 0:25:21.640 --> 0:25:27.159 But given Petrobrass's state backed are we also going to 0:25:27.200 --> 0:25:30.920