WEBVTT - Abandoned at Age 13 by His Mother: The Sam + Reed Harkness Story 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:03.600 Sam Harkness was thirteen years old when his mother left 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:08.440 one day, leaving no note, no forwarding address, no information 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.680 on where she was going. Sam and his brothers were 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.120 then left with the question of not only why, but 0:00:15.160 --> 0:00:19.799 also where and how. The telling of Sam's story is 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:24.360 all the more remarkable because Sam's half brother, Read Harkness, 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.920 made a series of films about Sam's antics while he 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:33.200 was a child and an adolescent. The film Sam Now 0:00:33.520 --> 0:00:37.800 beautifully intercuts this footage of Sam the child with Sam 0:00:37.840 --> 0:00:41.720 the adult on a journey to find his mother and 0:00:41.800 --> 0:00:45.760 the far more complex journey of what to do when 0:00:45.760 --> 0:00:50.120 he finally finds her. It's the story of complex and 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.680 difficult personalities in a family, how they affect everyone, the 0:00:54.800 --> 0:01:00.600 challenges in balancing empathy, compassion, boundaries, and reality at how 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:06.039 healing is a process of evolution. This podcast should not 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.840 be used as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:15.319 Individuals are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.839 or therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:25.080 medical condition, mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:29.600 discussed on this podcast. The views and opinions expressed are 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.959 solely those of the podcast author or individuals participating in 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:37.400 the podcast, and do not represent the opinions of Red 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:45.200 Table Talk Productions, iHeartMedia, or their employees. So Sam and Reid, 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:49.480 welcome to Navigating Narcissism. Your film is one of those 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:51.520 films I call sort of a film that sticks to 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:55.560 the hippocampus. You can't quite shake it. It's so visually beautiful. 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:59.480 It's a richly told story. It is such a unique 0:01:59.520 --> 0:02:01.960 use of foot I can't wait till everyone in the 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:04.480 world can see this film because it is actually one 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.680 of the more beautiful, evocative films I've seen. Your dream 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:10.880 is a psychologist dream. So thank you for bringing your 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:14.280 art into the world. It's wonderful to our listeners. Sam 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:18.160 and Read our brothers. Sam is a subject of this film. 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.200 Read is a filmmaker, and what's stunning about the film 0:02:21.600 --> 0:02:25.160 is it stitches together twenty five years of home videos. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.160 Read shot of Sam and their film. Sam Now is 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.160 really a movie about love. It's about longing, it's about loss, 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:38.480 it's about family, and it's also about intergenerational issues within 0:02:38.480 --> 0:02:42.120 a family and understanding how the trauma and loss of 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:45.799 one generation pays forward into another and how it impacts them. 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:49.160 So that's my take on it, my shrinky take. I 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:51.440 would love to hear from both of you. Tell us 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:52.880 please a little bit about the film. 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:55.440 Thank you so much for then intro. This is a 0:02:55.600 --> 0:03:00.040 film I started when I was a teenager, and I 0:03:00.080 --> 0:03:04.200 persisted for twenty five years. And the reason why is 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:08.400 because I was really interested in some characteristics about my 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:12.960 little brother. He's my half brother, and this sort of 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.640 resilient attitude he had. He would always take falls but 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:19.920 then bounce right back up, which is not something I 0:03:20.000 --> 0:03:24.760 naturally do. So I kept filming him over the years 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.120 and started to learn more about him and see this 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.919 kid kind of grow up. At this point that we 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:36.440 bring up making a film about Sam's missing mother, my stepmother. 0:03:36.720 --> 0:03:40.280 She disappeared one day from our family without telling anyone. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:44.280 This is a shock to the family. Nobody expects it, 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:50.760 and eventually the police are contacted and weeks later, a 0:03:50.800 --> 0:03:54.680 missing person's detective gets back to our family and says, 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:58.680 we found her. She's not being held against her will 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:01.920 and she doesn't want to any of you. So we're 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:08.080 left with that for the next three years, and it's 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.040 a really awkward thing in the family. The adults don't 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:13.960 seem to know what to do, and our brother Jared 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:18.040 is very depressed and is dropping out of school, and 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.839 there's not much support for Sam either, So it becomes 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.719 a strange thing where I find, as the older brother 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:25.560 that I should get involved. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.919 Can I ask you, Sam? And I think listeners almost 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.080 need a moment to take this in. 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:30.360 You. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.600 Basically, one day your mother disappeared, and then not only 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:35.800 do you find out that it wasn't an accident or 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.479 something like that, but that she's very much alive and 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.840 doesn't want to talk to you. This is so many 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:47.000 layered losses that for many people it's incomprehensible. Interestingly, the 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.719 story of the father leaving is one that I don't 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:52.760 want to say quite normalized, but it's definitely sort of 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.600 steeped in the culture. The idea of a mother leaving 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.640 is a very rare and anomalous experience. And so so Sam, 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:02.760 how old were you at the time your mother left? 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.200 It was right when I was entering high school, so 0:05:05.640 --> 0:05:07.400 right before my freshman year May it was thirteen. 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:08.599 Yeah, okay, so thirteen. 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.000 The reason I want to know the age is that 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.880 that's actually a pretty significant juncture, right, This is sort 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:17.839 of now a boy, girl, anyone. It's in puberty and 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.800 coming out of puberty into adolescence, and so's there's a lot. 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:24.320 There's a lot happening even on a good day for 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:26.080 the average thirteen year old boy. 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:28.480 Let alone. Now you're a thirteen year. 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:30.760 Old boy about to go to high school and your 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.000 mother has disappeared. Is Jared younger than you or older 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:34.479 than you? 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:36.360 Older by two and a half years. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:42.120 So Jared's an adolescent. You're coming into adolescence, and now 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.680 your mom is gone. So before we get to that, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.000 what was your relationship like with your mom when she 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:50.479 was still there and you were living with her. 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.919 Yes, So, firstly, my parents were divorced, and so it 0:05:53.960 --> 0:05:57.279 was a very i think typical split time. A custody 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:00.640 between the two parents was every other weekend in a 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.919 couple of week days at my mom's house, and I 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:06.159 think we had a close relationship. I think I was 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.880 closer with my dad solely because I was very into 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:14.159 athletics and sports and he really nourished that part of me. 0:06:14.520 --> 0:06:17.360 And also a lot of my friends were in my 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.599 dad's neighborhood. So sometimes when we're at my mom's house, 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:23.520 it was kind of a little more isolation. But my 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:28.360 mom was really responsible for a lot of like academics 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:30.680 and keeping up with a lot of our social lives. Again, 0:06:30.680 --> 0:06:34.080 even though it wasn't necessarily in her neighborhood, she kept 0:06:34.160 --> 0:06:36.240 up on like birthday parties and making sure we made 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:39.599 those in planning play dates and all these things. I 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:43.000 think she understood my social life better and knew a 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.440 lot of my friends and my friend's parents as well. 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:48.000 She was more on top of, like meals every night, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:49.680 more on top of routine. 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:52.400 I would say, I'm so glad you shared that, Sam, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.919 because you know, I think that one would say a 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:58.960 mom would abandon a child or move away or just disappear, 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.800 that maybe they weren't being a mom before they left. 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:04.760 But what you're describing is very mom stuff. 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:09.760 Routines and meals and setting up playdates and social life 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:10.400 and homework. 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:11.680 I mean, that's momming. 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.160 And so you know you very much had that relationship 0:07:15.200 --> 0:07:19.480 with her. Frankly, sand which magnifies the magnitude of the loss, 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.160 because it wasn't like this was a checked out mom. 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:24.440 What I'm hearing from you is that she actually, at 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.920 least on these measures, was very present and was doing 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:30.760 the things we would expect that a mother would do 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:31.840 for both you and your brother. 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.640 Yeah, And I would even say that I had the 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.240 not to like rate the relationships for my mom and 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.840 my brothers. But I think I had the lowest kind 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:45.040 of attachment to her between my brothers, and so my 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:47.480 brother Jared had an even stronger attachment. I think the 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.680 way me and my dad kind of vibed in sports 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.880 and whatnot, my brother Jared and my mom vibed a 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:55.400 lot more with everything else. Like he was much more 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.720 of an academic and she was very much into that. 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:00.600 And it's not like I had a batterlyhip with her. 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.200 Is this more that I could see there was more 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:03.320 of a closeness with them. 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:06.640 And read I know that she was your stepmother. How 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:08.520 did that affect you? You were quite a bit older. 0:08:08.800 --> 0:08:10.680 How did it affect you when she left? 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:14.160 She left right around a time when I was also 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:18.840 like moving out and I was actually living in Portland 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:21.320 at the time. I thought it was just like the 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:23.560 strangest thing, and thought that she was just going to 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:24.880 come back like any day. 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:25.280 You know. 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:27.240 It's like seemed like the kind of thing where it's like, Okay, 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:31.120 something's happened and she's she's going to be back any day, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:35.000 and then time passes. I keep checking in with our 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:40.400 dad and there's no news, and it gets weirder and 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:41.560 weirder as time goes on. 0:08:41.920 --> 0:08:44.040 So, Sam, can you share what it was like in 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:47.040 those early days your mom's disappeared and it took a 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.480 minute to figure out what had happened. What was that 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:51.960 early period of time like for you, not just when 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:54.520 she had first left, but then when there's recognition that 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:57.280 she was okay, but that she did not want to 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.320 talk to you. How did all of that feel and 0:08:59.360 --> 0:08:59.959 play out. 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.200 For you initially? I think like one of the big 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:06.280 memories that sticks out to me was continuing to go 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.760 to my stepdad's house even when my mom was very 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.559 clearly gone and not well maybe we didn't know she 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:14.920 was coming back yet, but there was like a good 0:09:15.040 --> 0:09:17.640 couple of months where we continued the routine of going 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:21.160 over to my stepdad's house and we would literally Jared 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:24.320 and I would show up asking my stepdad, Hey, is 0:09:24.360 --> 0:09:27.320 mom home, and then he would say no, and then 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:29.240 he would ask questions back to us, have you heard 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:33.000 from her? And it was a very bizarre exchange. And 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:34.679 that's kind of what it's referencing with a little bit 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.640 of the role reversal, where sometimes I felt like we 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:41.560 also had to have some responsibility for where she was 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:44.840 or having tabs on what's going on and when we 0:09:44.920 --> 0:09:49.200 had no idea. But that was kind of when I 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:50.880 think it was starting to hit that I was like, 0:09:51.040 --> 0:09:53.120 this is not normal that we just keep going to 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:55.520 this house expecting her to be there and she's not. 0:09:56.400 --> 0:09:58.560 And then when we found out that she wasn't coming 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.559 back we kind of heard about the investigator and that 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:06.600 she wasn't gonna be returning, that was hard. But I 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:09.640 think that's when I made a pretty quick switch, and 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:12.079 I probably didn't emotionally process it very easily. I think 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.360 I switched to like, oh, I'm independent, I'm a young man, 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:17.400 I can do this, I've been able to do this, 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:20.600 and really just put off processing it all together and 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.000 didn't really think about it too much. 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:24.800 So in a way, Sam, I'm hearing, it's almost like 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.200 you managed it a little bit like one might a death, 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:30.160 Like she's gone, that's it, keep going. 0:10:30.080 --> 0:10:31.600 Yeah, I'd say. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:31.800 So. 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:34.959 We'd get gifts sent to us like Christmas and our birthdays, 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:37.160 and she had made sure that you couldn't track where 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.839 they were coming from. And so gift giving is kind 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:44.160 of a triggering thing for me sometimes. So especially like packages, 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:47.240 that was a thing that like, I don't know, held 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:49.560 some sort of hope for me. Sometimes was like these 0:10:49.720 --> 0:10:53.320 these packages that would show up and almost like a 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:57.720 replacement for her presence, but I you know, I don't know, 0:10:57.800 --> 0:10:59.120 held on to it in some kind of way. That 0:10:59.200 --> 0:11:01.160 was like, oh, she is coming back, and. 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:09.000 Yeah, hope can be a miraculous thing and a treacherous thing. 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.520 The gifts that would come from a person who disappeared 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.000 who is your mother, and who didn't want to be 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:19.520 found but was still making her presence known clearly brought 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.760 up a mix of emotions. In an ambiguous situation like this, 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:28.280 Hope is really tricky. It begs the question of whether 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:30.840 it would have been easier if she didn't send the 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.040 gifts at all, so Sam and his brothers could just 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:39.360 move on. Hope can create connective tissue in a relationship 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:43.560 even when the person is physically gone. So it fostered 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:45.679 a hope and in a way then that gift actually 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:49.520 had quite a different impact. And I mean, at some 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.320 level one would say we would never know We'll never 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:55.360 know what her agenda was in sending those gifts, because 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.600 there was you know, to send a gift from a 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:00.440 mother that you'd have once had, who has no intention 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:04.600 of maintaining a relationship with you is an incredibly confusing experience. 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:06.880 The question I have for you, Sam, it's interesting you're 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:10.000 going back to your stepfather's. Your mother's clearly not there, 0:12:10.640 --> 0:12:14.120 your stepfather's asking you have you heard from her? I 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:16.360 want to understand where the grown ups were in all 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:20.280 of this, Like were your feelings being processed? Were there 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:24.040 people so solicitous of you and holding you close and 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:28.160 protecting you and soothing you. I'm confused as to why 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.080 they'd send you there, Like why they wouldn't just keep 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:33.520 you in one place until that all got figured out? 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.719 So can you break that down a little, because I 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:37.120 don't actually even fully understand that. 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:41.079 Yeah, I would say that the Harkness family is very 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:43.760 good at physically showing up and kind of like you 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:48.160 mentioned that protective. They'll form that protective bubble around you 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.560 and make sure your needs are met and be there. 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:55.960 But the hard conversations aren't had, and the asking for 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:59.800 you know how I'm feeling, or the emotional processing support 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.920 isn't there really either. But you know, my grandma was 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:06.960 there so much for me, just when my dad needed 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:08.760 help with childcare. I think I was over at her 0:13:08.760 --> 0:13:11.599 house probably, and she lives two blocks away from my 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:13.760 dad's house, which was really convenient, and she's kind of 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.600 got this open door policy that you know, me and 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.520 my brother were probably there eating dinner five or six 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.720 nights of the week. And again she was there. She 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.160 was great, But I don't remember anybody really coming to 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:30.400 like ask us about what was happening. 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:33.040 And for you read because obviously you were in the 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.199 family system though you were moving away. First of all, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.720 what was your relationship like with her? And then how 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.600 did that you know, how did you manage those early 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.720 days of her being gone, and then when it got 0:13:44.760 --> 0:13:46.079 confirmed she's not coming back. 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.960 Before she left, I felt like our relationship had gotten 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:53.800 kind of closer and closer, even though you know, she's 0:13:54.320 --> 0:13:57.560 got this whole separate house that's a little bit more 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.360 removed from the Harkness family. I would go over there. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.280 My stepbrother's close in age to me, so like we 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.080 would do sleepovers over there, hang out with my brothers, 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:09.880 And I felt like, as I got older, I got 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:14.040 closer with Joyce because we really shared this sort of 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:18.400 like artistic drive, and she was really encouraging of like 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.960 me taking Sam out and doing the filmmaking them we 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.440 were doing. She was like, that's so great, you know, 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:27.280 Like she would just be so excited and she's like 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:28.760 I'd be like, okay, I'm here to pick up Sam, 0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:31.160 and she's like great, you know. She just she was 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.800 so encouraging. So I think that my memory of her 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:38.160 before leaving was that same kind of energy, And so 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:41.280 I had a kind of blind optimism when it comes 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.440 to this sort of road trip idea, that it's like, 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.800 if we can find her, like she'll at least be 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:48.960 able to connect with us in some way, you know. 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:51.200 And I want to come into that road trip because 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.400 this is the significant piece of the film before I 0:14:54.440 --> 0:14:57.400 get to that for either of you. Because I think 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.600 a lot of viewers, myself included when I saw the film, 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:06.200 are going to wonder did anyone, even children in the family, 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:09.840 see any red flags that would have led you not 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:11.640 to say, well, of course she's going to leave, because 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.640 obviously you were all startled by it. But when you 0:15:14.680 --> 0:15:19.000 told the story backwards, you felt like Okay, this doesn't 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.040 this isn't completely in a vacuum or out of nowhere. 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:22.480 Yeah. 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:25.520 I think a couple months before she left, she was 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.720 taking a few trips. I remember her going to Texas 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.080 a couple times and maybe California once, and that was 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.080 a little bit out of the ordinary for her. I 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.800 don't remember her traveling much at all besides maybe to 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.560 go visit her parents in Oregon. And we didn't go 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:42.640 on trips very often either. When I traveled, it was 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:44.840 usually with my dad. Yeah, not a lot with my 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.880 mom and her doing solo trips. That was like a 0:15:46.880 --> 0:15:49.520 little bit of like, oh, that's interesting that she's traveling 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:52.400 by herself, not with my stepdad. But we were very 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.200 well informed about it. We knew when she was leaving, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:57.000 when she was coming back, and all that. So again 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:58.680 wasn't a red flag at the time, but now that 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.120 I'm thinking about it, that was like, it's interesting to 0:16:01.160 --> 0:16:01.640 think about. 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:04.280 Okay, So there was things that while they were happening, 0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:08.000 you never nobody, Sam whatever connected dots of she went 0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:10.280 to Texas and California, She's going to leave. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:12.280 I mean, that's not how you connect that. 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.960 But then you go backwards and you say, there was 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:16.800 that slight change in behavior. 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:18.920 What about you read you were a little older. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:22.160 Was there anything you were observing that now in retrospect 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:23.720 you thought no. 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:27.680 But when we started making a film about this, I 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:30.080 did a really deep investigation where I was talking to 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:32.440 all of our family members and all of her friends 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:36.120 at the time, and stuff came out through that. So, like, 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:41.040 I learned that she started kind of retreating from friendships, 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:44.520 long term friendships, and she was demoted at a job, 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.960 and a few things were happening that kind of might 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.160 have sent her to a place of feeling like she 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.280 just her old life had kind of come to a 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:56.760 place where she just wasn't happy. 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.200 Okay, So again things that be told backwards, but in 0:17:01.240 --> 0:17:03.240 real time, hey, you didn't know some of those things 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.920 until afterwards or be when they were happening. It would 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.120 have been a bit of a leap of conceptual leap 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:09.919 to say, oh, she's gone to Texas, so she's going 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:10.360 to leave. 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:11.960 So I understand that. 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.080 But what I want to do now is really get 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.800 into this idea of the road trip, because this is 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:19.480 why this is such a wonderful film, because not only 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.400 is there this beautiful footage of a boy growing up, 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.320 told through the lens of his brother. Then all of 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.080 a sudden, it becomes a road trip film, which, of 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:29.920 who doesn't love a road trip film and. 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.359 A very very unique road trip. 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.520 It wasn't even until after I talked to Read and 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:39.960 Sam that it jumped out to me that healing is 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:42.800 a road trip and it's fashion, even if it's not 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:46.920 literally in a car. Survivors of any kind of difficult, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:51.880 confusing relationship, especially if it is something as formative as 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:55.960 a relationship with a parent, feel compelled to sort of 0:17:56.000 --> 0:17:58.080 go on a bit of a journey to figure it out. 0:17:58.440 --> 0:18:01.560 Read and Sam got into a are to literally look 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:06.480 for their mother and stepmother. Most survivors do this psychologically. 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.560 They explore and ask questions and go backwards and forwards 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.040 in their mind to figure it out. 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.160 Where did this go? What just happened? 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.840 So would lud love to do, is have you share 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:21.679 with us what the goal of the road trip was 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.200 going to be, what you hoped would happen from both 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.280 of your perspectives. So here you are setting off on 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.359 a road trip, honestly like no other. What was the 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:32.800 goal of this road trip? 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.320 Sam was so gung how about this He's like, this 0:18:35.359 --> 0:18:38.760 is happening during my midwinter break. This is the only 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.320 window I have my schedule. Is really important that this 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.480 is the timeframe that I have. So I was like, Okay, okay, 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.480 I guess, I guess. I guess we're going then. And 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:51.359 I was not prepared. First of all, I'm the only 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:55.440 one that's got a driver's license. And then and then 0:18:55.520 --> 0:18:59.360 like we're borrowing our dad's minivan, and like we don't 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:03.960 have any money, and so we're like borrowing money from 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.680 family members. Our grandma sends us with like a batch 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:10.800 of cookies, and you know, we didn't really have a 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:15.720 solid lead, but we had one location, and we have 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.720 this location in Long Beach, California. There's supposed to be 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.120 like a history professor that might have been in contact 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:25.679 with her. So we're like, hey, we're gonna just like 0:19:25.760 --> 0:19:28.120 go down there and meet this guy in his office hour. 0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:29.640 So that's gonna be your best shot. 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:32.240 So how did you come to the determination about the 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.760 professor in Long Beach? Did you look at old correspondence? 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:37.320 Was it a recollection you had? 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:40.359 Yeah, so it came up through these interviews. I was 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.359 doing this like in a research investigative process. That I 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:45.520 was doing. We're doing it through the film, and you 0:19:45.520 --> 0:19:48.639 can see how that comes about our step brother Peter, 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:53.240 through Joyce's first marriage. He's about my age. We were 0:19:53.240 --> 0:20:02.000 having a conversation and he mentioned a name, and through 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:06.040 research we figured out that he was down at this university. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.120 And we thought that if we just cold called him 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.760 that he might just like hang up on us, you know, 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:15.879 too easy for him to just like, you know, go cold, 0:20:16.440 --> 0:20:18.720 and so we thought our best shot was to, like, 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:24.240 you know, okay, here's the actual relatives. Showing up at 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:27.399 his office after driving a thousand miles, that's probably like, 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.520 you know, he's probably like entertained us, you know. 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:33.399 Okay, So you get in the minivan, you point it south, 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.280 you drive one thousand miles, You show up at the 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:41.439 university in Long Beach, and smartly, so you show up 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:43.520 at office hours when all of us professors had to 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:44.600 have our doors open. 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:47.080 What happened when you got to Long Beach and showed 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:49.000 up at the university, he wasn't there. 0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:52.800 As we often are professors often missed their office hour. 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:58.080