1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: I started Facebook, I run it, and I'm responsible for 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: what happens here. Whistle blower Francis Halgan insisting Congress must 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: act against a company she says is misleading the public 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: promoting hateful and harmful content. She laid ultimate responsibility on 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:23,440 Speaker 1: Facebook founder and CEO Marcus Zuckerberg. Since we wrapped our 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: first episode on Facebook, it's been revealed that hell bent 7 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:32,239 Speaker 1: on growth, Facebook leadership actually knew of the harm that 8 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,559 Speaker 1: they were causing users and they didn't care. So in 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: this episode, we continue our exploration of events and learn 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: how this information affects Facebook's b S score. And if 11 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: you haven't listened to part one, it's in your feed now. 12 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: We'll be right here when you come back. Welcome to 13 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 1: Calling bull Shit, the podcast about purpose washing, the gap 14 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: between what companies say they stand for and what they 15 00:01:07,200 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: actually do and what they would need to change to 16 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,320 Speaker 1: practice what they preach. I'm your host, time Ontogue, and 17 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 1: I've spent over a decade helping companies define what they 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: stand for, their purpose and then help them to use 19 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:26,039 Speaker 1: that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: a lot of organizations today, they're still a pretty wide 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: gap between word. Indeed, that gap has a name. We 22 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: call it bullshit. But, and this is important, we believe 23 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: that bullshit is a treatable disease. So when the BS 24 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 1: detector lights up, we're going to explore things that a 25 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: company should do to fix it. Facebook says its mission 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: is to give people the power to build community and 27 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: bring the world closer together, and we've called bullshit on that. 28 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: In fact, in our previous Facebook episode, we gave them 29 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: a sky HIGHBS score of seventy two. But some pretty 30 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: important news has dropped since that episode wrapped, So let's 31 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: do a quick catch up. Since we left off, there's 32 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: been both good news and some seriously bad news from Facebook. First, 33 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: former Facebook data scientist Sophie Young came forward. Sophie says 34 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: that while working there, she noticed political parties across twenty 35 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: five countries had been manipulating Facebook to mislaid and in 36 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:45,800 Speaker 1: some cases harass it's our in citizens in fairness. Facebook 37 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: then took a step in the right direction by creating 38 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: an independent advisory board, similar to what Cameron Ashgar, founder 39 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: of Cross Media, suggested in our first Facebook episode. When 40 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: I heard of its formation, I thought this might actually 41 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: be a turning point, but then the hammer fell. This 42 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: is the Facebook Files, a series from the Journal. We're 43 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: looking deep inside Facebook through its own internal documents. Francis Hogan, 44 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 1: a product manager in Facebook's civic Integrity unit, left the 45 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: company in May, taking internal documents with her. She delivered 46 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: those documents to the Wall Street Journal and law enforcement, 47 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:32,760 Speaker 1: giving us an unprecedented look inside Facebook. The thing I 48 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: saw Facebook over and over again was there were conflicts 49 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: of interest between what was good for the public and 50 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: what was good for Facebook, and Facebook over and over 51 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: again chose to optimize for its own interests, like making 52 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: more money. In October, how Can testified to Congress that 53 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:53,160 Speaker 1: Facebook had extensive research on all of the problems and 54 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:58,040 Speaker 1: negative effects of their platforms, from misinformation on Facebook to 55 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: toxic Instagram content target young female users. Not only did 56 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: they know, they chose to do nothing about it. The 57 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: only way we can move forward and heal Facebook as 58 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:13,760 Speaker 1: we first left him in the truth. Either way we'll 59 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: have reconciliation and we can move forward is by first 60 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: being honest and declaring world bankruptcy. And the way Mark 61 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg chose to move forward in the midst of their 62 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,279 Speaker 1: very public trial for moral bankruptcy was to change the 63 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 1: company's name to reflect who we are and what we 64 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: hope to build. I am proud to announce that's starting today. 65 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: Our company is now meta. It was a head scratcher. 66 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: It's a move right out of the big tobacco playbook. 67 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,279 Speaker 1: Remember when Philip Morris became Altria, and even if it 68 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:52,120 Speaker 1: was genuine, it was pretty much guaranteed to raise suspicion 69 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: about the company, not lower it. Zuckerberg isn't going anywhere, 70 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: and he surrounded himsel off with a tight group of 71 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:04,279 Speaker 1: people at the top who literally don't care about harming 72 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: the welfare of users, which is why we're seeing Facebook 73 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: employees like Jong and Howgan go public, joining former co 74 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 1: founder Chris Hughes, former investor Roger McNamee, and others in 75 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: calling for Congress to step in. But as we've seen lately, 76 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 1: Congress finds it hard to agree on some pretty basic 77 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: stuff like that an attack on our capitol is bad 78 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: and that voting is good, for instance. So I'm not 79 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: holding my breath. So here's the question, what the funk 80 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: do we do to try to get to the bottom 81 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,080 Speaker 1: of this. I reached out to an expert who has 82 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: some unusual and I think sorely needed attributes. He's a 83 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: trained software engineer with a decidedly humanist point of view. 84 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 1: My guest today is the first century renaissance man, Ramash 85 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: Screeny Vazon, a Silicon Valley native U c L, A professor, 86 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: AI engineer, anthropologist, and author of several books, including Beyond 87 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,720 Speaker 1: the Valley, How innovators around the World are overcoming inequality 88 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: and creating the technologies of tomorrow, and whose Global Village 89 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: rethinking how technology shapes our world. First, I want to 90 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 1: thank you for being here, Remage, and welcome to calling bullshit. 91 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me Tie. I'm really excited to 92 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 1: be part of this. So before we get into the 93 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: topic of the day, which is Facebook, I'd love for 94 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: you to just introduce yourself. So I'm a very strange 95 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: cat in the sense that I'm a mix of a humanist, 96 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: a social scientists. Right. I'm I'm pretty trained in like anthropology, 97 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,359 Speaker 1: cultural studies, all these issues as well as engineering, and 98 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: I think we need all three of these spheres to 99 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: be in conversation with one another to get us out 100 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: of the mess, uh the many messes we find ourselves 101 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: in right now. My work is really rooted in the 102 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: larger question of how we humanize technology, how do we 103 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: transform technology so it serves the best purposes of humanism. 104 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: And so when I mean humanism, I mean that idea 105 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: that we all feel and sometimes we forget that we're 106 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: all in it together. You know that your well being 107 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: might be connected to my own. So that's sort of 108 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: respect of people's and their lives across our planet, particularly 109 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: in the continents of Asia, Africa, South America and so on. 110 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 1: You know, these people represent together the vast majority of 111 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: technology users, yet they're conspicuously absent really from almost anything 112 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: involving major decisions around big technology platforms. So this kind 113 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: of idea of dignity and respect for all people's that 114 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: has such promise in relation to the Internet, My work 115 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: is really trying to drive us back to where that 116 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 1: as our north star. Yeah, and I saw that you 117 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: somewhere that you described it as your work is the 118 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 1: intersection of technology, innovation, politics, business and society. What was 119 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: it that drew you to that topic? I mean, so, 120 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: I am a late nineties Stanford graduate in engineering. I 121 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: worked for two years right after my undergrad in Amsterdam 122 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: in the Netherlands, developing kind of machine learning technologies, and 123 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: all the while, both in my classes as an undergraduate, 124 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: in my own personal life because of you know, my 125 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: family being from India and are my family traveling to 126 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: different parts of the world, but just sort of also 127 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,839 Speaker 1: just generally in my own life, I saw an incredible 128 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 1: disconnect between the priorities, the lives, the values, the belief 129 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: systems of people around our beautiful planet and where we 130 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: were driving technology. And even in my context as an 131 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: AI developer, and you know, the late nineties, with the 132 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: realities that I was witnessing and and the insights that 133 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: came from other fields in many other parts of the world. 134 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,840 Speaker 1: So you can't really understand technology and what it means 135 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: without really thinking about things that are not about technology, 136 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: if you know what I mean. But you know, all 137 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:17,480 Speaker 1: the while, what we tend to do as we elevate, 138 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: if not fetishized technology, and that becomes the object of 139 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 1: our gaze and our attention, rather than what it actually 140 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: means for our people, for our planet, for diverse cultures, 141 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 1: for democracy, for economic justice, for racial justice, all these 142 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: issues those are not questions fundamentally about technology. And I 143 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: think I've always been sort of a humanist at heart, 144 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: someone who cares about these values more than anything. Yeah, well, 145 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: we need more people like you with that incredibly diverse background, right, 146 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,760 Speaker 1: It's very rare, it seems to me, is particularly in 147 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: the Valley. That's true. Yeah, and I'm in the Silicon 148 00:09:54,760 --> 00:09:57,320 Speaker 1: Valley right now. I'm from Silicon Valley. I went to 149 00:09:57,360 --> 00:10:00,040 Speaker 1: the same high school as Steve jobs stand for a 150 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: late nineties, So this world is very close to my 151 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: own personal world. Yet I've also seen how incredibly opaque 152 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,360 Speaker 1: and limited and actually nearest sighted this world is. It's 153 00:10:10,440 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: very disconnected. That's why I called my last book Beyond 154 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: the Valley, both in a literal and metaphorical sense. Yeah. 155 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: So let's pivot to Facebook, and this is our second 156 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: episode on Facebook. In the first one, the inciting incident 157 00:10:24,120 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 1: really was the Capital, right, and we talked a lot 158 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: about that in Facebook's role in it. The big change 159 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: since we wrapped episode one is that we've learned via 160 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: whistleblower Francis Hogan, that Facebook knows right, Facebook knows that 161 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 1: they are endangering mental health and in some cases physical 162 00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: well being, and they choose to ignore it. And so 163 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: for us at calling BS, that really raises the stakes, 164 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:53,320 Speaker 1: and so first I just love to hear you know, 165 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: kind of what you think about all of that. I mean, 166 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: what Francis Haagan sort of leaked out that she was 167 00:10:59,480 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 1: privy to as as a whistleblower was what a number 168 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: of scholars, not just me, but like, you know, dozens 169 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: of us and journalists by the way we're pointing out, 170 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: you know, we all saw these things, but we saw 171 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 1: the effects in various parts of the world. We saw 172 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: the effects with January six. We saw the effects with 173 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 1: the incredible divisiveness associated with Brexit and the and the 174 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: Trump election. So we saw, wait a second, what's going 175 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: on here? These algorithms are manipulating us psychometrically to be 176 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: more divided than ever. So we were seeing this. It 177 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: was extremely helpful for our cause as scholars to get 178 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: that corroboration from internal studies that Facebook was doing, showing 179 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: that Instagram, for example, and any of us who've used 180 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: Instagram can see this, and you can imagine being a 181 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: younger person in their early twenties or teens, just how 182 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: it's correlated with the feeling that I'm never good enough. 183 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: You know, I'm never good enough, I'm never beautiful enough. 184 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:00,320 Speaker 1: I'm never hot enough, I'm never smart enough, skinny enough, 185 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: because so much of Instagram is artificially filtered, right So, 186 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 1: so basically these revelations were extremely important because they showed 187 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: how what Facebook is attempting to do, which other big 188 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: tech companies are also trying to do in their own realms, 189 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: is basically dominate our lives in relation to all things 190 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,360 Speaker 1: socially oriented. Right. They want to basically be the place 191 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: we go to to communicate with no and socialize with 192 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: one another. But in the process, what's occurring is not 193 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: tie you and I talking with one another. It's some 194 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: weird stuff that's going on in the middle that's manipulating 195 00:12:37,000 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: what you see and when you see it, and what 196 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:40,840 Speaker 1: I see and when I see it. And there's this 197 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: massive acquisition of data that is being used to target 198 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: us as psycho graphic subjects, not demographic, but psychographic. What 199 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: will drive you crazy, what will get you aroused, what 200 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: will get you to be more extroverted? As I was 201 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: preparing for this, I ran across a quote by Sean Parker, 202 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: Facebook's first president, in Axios, and in this interview, he 203 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,720 Speaker 1: said that Facebook and Instagram constantly ask themselves one question 204 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: how do we consume as much of the user's time 205 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: and attention as possible? And then he went on to 206 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: say we were exploiting a vulnerability in human psychology. The investors, creators, 207 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg, Kevin's Systrom, all of these people understood it consciously, 208 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:27,680 Speaker 1: and we did it anyway. And I guess my question 209 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: is how why is this even legal? Like it's odd 210 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 1: to me that we allow this to go on? Well, 211 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: partly because we're only wrapping our heads around what's going 212 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: on recently, and our lawmakers are even more slowly wrapping 213 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,480 Speaker 1: their heads around what is happening here. I mean, I'm 214 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: trying to work with as many of them as I can. 215 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: One piece of good news is that lawmakers across the 216 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: political spectrum for various reasons. The thing is that what 217 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: is occurring here is, you know, leveraging the kind of 218 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 1: principles of free speech. And I'm all for free speech. 219 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: These technology companies have actually they used that as their 220 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: sort of crutch and then they do whatever they want 221 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: with us. I don't mind that the Internet supports the 222 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: capacity for all types of speech, but what I do 223 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: mind deeply is that the most heinous forms of speech 224 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: are what are being most prioritized. So you know, Tye, 225 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: it's one thing for me to say, Tie, you know, 226 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: you should be able to speak how you wish, and 227 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: you should be able to read what you want. It's 228 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: another thing to say that, Tie, I'm just going to 229 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 1: keep feeding you insane, crazy and at times conspiratorial and 230 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: outrageous content. So you so you go crazy with a 231 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: dopamine firing in your head, and it's like staring at 232 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 1: a burning car the entire time. It's so Actually, these 233 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: companies are not prioritizing actual free speech in the sense 234 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 1: that all forms of speech are, you know, maybe even 235 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: equally accessible. But no, I'm sorry, I'm I'm interrupting. Here 236 00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: you go, I'm excited now. Just the last thing I 237 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: would say is in democratic societies, there's always been voices 238 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: that are a little extreme on various margins those that's 239 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 1: part of democracy. Here, what's happening is, you know, we're 240 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: all being presented with completely different worlds in front of 241 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: our fingertips, and we're all glued to our phones and 242 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: on these apps and on these websites all the time, 243 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: so our entire experience is completely different. Tights, say, you 244 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: and I were like the same demographically, the same, politically, 245 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: the same in terms of economic class. We could be 246 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 1: presented with completely different dissenting worlds on these platforms, right, 247 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: We live in completely different reality bubbles on the platform. Yeah. Well, 248 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 1: and that's the thing. They claim that they shouldn't be 249 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 1: responsible because they exercise no editorial control on the platform. 250 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:51,080 Speaker 1: They are not a media platform. But the algorithms exercise 251 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: editorial control. That's the point. It's just not it's non human. 252 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 1: But that shouldn't absolve them. They created the algorithms. That's 253 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 1: the point. Opt In is a default on every level, 254 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 1: and it's not just opt in. You know, people like 255 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: Edward Snowden have made the point that even if our 256 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: phones were on airplane mode, we're being recorded all the time. 257 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: Say I'm hanging out with Utah, but I left my 258 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: phone at home. Data about me is still being gathered 259 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: through your phone, through your device, which is creepy because 260 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: you can stitch together data points triangulate. Yeah. Okay, so 261 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: let me shift gears for a sec here and just 262 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 1: get into another aspect of this. My sense, given that 263 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: Facebook scale, that we're all affected by Facebook in some 264 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: way today. But I'm wondering what you would stay to 265 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: somebody who says, well, if you don't like what they do, 266 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,720 Speaker 1: just delete the platform, don't use the product. Easy, Easier 267 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: said than done. If you're in a country in the 268 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: world where Facebook is the media network, they say, we don't. 269 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 1: We are not a media network. They're the biggest media 270 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: network in the history of the world period period, you know. 271 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: I mean they're only vuying with like a YouTube, which 272 00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: is of course part of Google, right. I mean, if 273 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: you want to look at Instagram, Facebook, I mean the 274 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: technologies and WhatsApp. If you look at the union of 275 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 1: those three groups, we're talking about three point five billion 276 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,439 Speaker 1: people out of eight billion or so people in the world. 277 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: That's that they're all media platforms, and they are together, 278 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: if you put it all together, the biggest media network 279 00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: in the history of the world. So it's like saying 280 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 1: to someone like, oh, well, too bad, you can just 281 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: choose to get off of our platform and use something else. 282 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: It's just not It's really unrealistic on so many levels, right, 283 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: I mean, because of what we call network effects. I'm 284 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 1: on Facebook, not because I care about Facebook. I'm on 285 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: Facebook to connect with my relatives in India, with people 286 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: I worked with in South America. That's why I'm there. 287 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,200 Speaker 1: So it's like too late. They are essentially a utility, 288 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: if not something approaching a monopoly. So they are the 289 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: de facto place for socializing. And I don't mean Facebook 290 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: the technology. I mean Facebook the company which owns again 291 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: Oculus right, which is their gateway to meta by the way, 292 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: um Instagram, what'sapp in Facebook? Ye? And in terms of 293 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: Facebook's attitude about all this, I read another thing that 294 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: I found sort of outrageous. This long time Facebook executive 295 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: and now new Chief Technology officer ct O Andrew Bosworth 296 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: came right out and said that he blames users for 297 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: the choices that they make on the platform. He said 298 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: a bunch of that's insane. Yeah, he said a bunch 299 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: of crazy things. He said, rather than social media people 300 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: are to blame for the proliferation of misinformation online, He 301 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: said the owners should be on the individual and any 302 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: meaningful democracy. He called Facebook a fundamentally democratic technology, despite 303 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: the recent revelation that the platform allowed high profile users 304 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: to break its policies. Asked whether vaccine hesitancy would be 305 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: the same with or without social media, he said that 306 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: individuals choose what sources to trust. That's their choice. They're 307 00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,359 Speaker 1: allowed to do that. If you have an issue with 308 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: those people, you don't have an issue with Facebook. You 309 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: can't put that on me. I just that attitude seems 310 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: I don't know, anti human in a way like it 311 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: just seems wrong. It's uninformed also right, in addition to 312 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: being just being untrue, it's uninformed. And sometimes these are 313 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: these are perspectives you hear from people like who are 314 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: just so ensnared within the kind of tech bubble they 315 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: somehow think that what they're creating is an open portal 316 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 1: to the world. How is that possible? If what I 317 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: see on Facebook is determined computationally and algorithmically by Facebook, 318 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: can they tell me how I can experience my Facebook 319 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: feed in a in a way that is more open 320 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 1: or is more self directed by my own choices, my 321 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,719 Speaker 1: own values. Of course not. Yes, indeed, so just spending 322 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,879 Speaker 1: another minute outside the US. As you pointed out, the 323 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: vast majority of users are outside the US, and one 324 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 1: aspect is that the US is where most of their 325 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: modern ration happens. In other words, they pay much more 326 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: attention to the US platform than they do outside the US, 327 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:10,720 Speaker 1: which means that most of their users are looking at 328 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: a completely unmoderated platform in terms of hateful content, and 329 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: so I just wondered if you could talk about the 330 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: impact in places like the global South, India for example, 331 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: and you know what the effects are on democracy worldwide? Yeah, 332 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: I mean Facebook. You know, the company understands that the 333 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: most you know, kind of crop that they're going to 334 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: get or will have to kind of deal with is 335 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: in the US, right, So in other countries, you know, 336 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 1: this approach to where just getting people content that rolls 337 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,160 Speaker 1: them up, that outreaches them, that drives them a little 338 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 1: crazy is the norm. Right. So we've seen how that 339 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,760 Speaker 1: manifests in genocides in myyan Mar with the Rohinga community. 340 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: We've seen how it's actually manifested in the more recent 341 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,920 Speaker 1: attack on Burmese people by the state government. We're seeing 342 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: it right now in the Two Grayan region of Ethiopia. 343 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: We've seen this in Sri Lanka. We've seen it right 344 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:06,520 Speaker 1: here at home in January six. We see it all 345 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: around the world. And we can also see how despots 346 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 1: and authoritarians, people like Rodrico de Terite in the Philippines, 347 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: Jayur Bolsonaro in Brazil have been able to use social 348 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: media to divide and conquer to polarized people. And our 349 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: former president was a master at being a central node 350 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: of digital activity on many different platforms. He put out 351 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: content messaging that worked perfectly well for these dystopic forms 352 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,680 Speaker 1: of virality and visibility that I'm speaking about. Ramatous take 353 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: on Mark zuckerberg obstacles to regulation and Facebook's revised BS 354 00:21:46,600 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: score right after this, back with Roma Srinivasan, author of 355 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: Beyond the Valley, how innovators around the world are overcoming 356 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: inequality and creating the technologies of tomorrow. So just different topics, 357 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: but but relevant, I think is and and some of 358 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: our listeners may not understand this. I didn't for a 359 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 1: long time that Mark Zuckerberg is an unusual CEO and 360 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 1: that he holds absolute power at Facebook because he owns 361 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: the majority of the voting shares and so unlike most 362 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: normal companies, he doesn't report to the board as most 363 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: CEOs do, so the board doesn't decide Mark does on everything. 364 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: And so when you look at his actions personally, well, 365 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: I guess professionally, they're hard to peel apart, Like, what 366 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: do you think it tells us about his goals for 367 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 1: the future. So the way Zuckerberg is able to get 368 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 1: away with this is through what's called dual class share 369 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 1: of structures. That basically means that Zuckerberg actually owns, you know, 370 00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,399 Speaker 1: a different class, a different what's called class of equity. 371 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,720 Speaker 1: This is an equity that can't be overcome by other 372 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: people on the board's decisions. Facebook basically has a strategy 373 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: from this example to other ones, including their you know, 374 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:29,080 Speaker 1: so called independent you know, advisory board. They basically say like, hey, 375 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,639 Speaker 1: we're down with regulation, We're down with your opinions, your voices. 376 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, these are just 377 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 1: little advisory groups or the board that actually doesn't have 378 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 1: any power. You know, why would the board actually even 379 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: care to change the status quo unless they have more 380 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: humanist or humanitarian sensibilities given that they're making more money 381 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: than ever. So what you actually see is again abate 382 00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: and switch. They say they're innovative, but actually they're really 383 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: anti innovation in the sense that they're not resourceful at all. 384 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: They say they're you know, supporting democracy. Really what they're 385 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: doing is figuring out a masterful model of a triumph 386 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 1: of a kind of oligarchic capitalism over democracy. So this 387 00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: is kind of like when we talk about the governance 388 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: of these technology companies, you know, you can't expect them 389 00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: to do any sort of self regulation at all, because 390 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: it's it's actually just you know, like little fake sort 391 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: of agreements to the public like hey, okay, next time 392 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: we'll have better AI. Okay, next time we're you know, 393 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: we're part of this consortium with the a c l U. 394 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,399 Speaker 1: None of those things ultimately change the decisions that are 395 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: made on a business or technological level by the company itself. Right, Yeah, 396 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: I think that you don't agree with this, but but 397 00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: obviously you'll correct me. So let me take a run 398 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: at this. Mark has absolute power, and he doesn't seem 399 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: to care whether Facebook is good for people or good 400 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: for the world at all. In fact, we know that 401 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: he is now knowingly pursuing revenue growth at the expense 402 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: of people's mental health, young people, childre don. In some cases, 403 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: he knowingly lies in public occasionally to Congress about his 404 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: intentions to change. And so I look at that behavior 405 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,719 Speaker 1: and it begs the question is Mark a sociopath? Like 406 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 1: does he have some kind of clinical condition? Yeah? I 407 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 1: mean you were right to say that. My I would 408 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: answer no to that. Yeah, I heard that you disagreed 409 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: with this, and I just I just wanted to hear 410 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: you talk more about why I think the system is sociopathic, right, 411 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,600 Speaker 1: I think the system is just deeply inhumane. Actually, And 412 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: as far as Mark Zuckerbrook's concerned himself, I've actually met 413 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 1: him a little over a decade ago. I mean, I 414 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,679 Speaker 1: wouldn't call him shiny happy people, but you know, I 415 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: I thought he was just kind of in that way 416 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 1: that a lot of engineers can be. I mean, this 417 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: is a long time ago, just kind of just sort 418 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 1: of wants data and evidence and analysis, and it is 419 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, interested in the growth of 420 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: his platform. Right. So it's so it's sort of like 421 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: we have created such a system where growth, no matter 422 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: what is what is valued. And you know, some of 423 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: these people are so kind of just almost you know, 424 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 1: this is a very humane guess that they're just so 425 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: overwhelmed with not just them growing the platform, but all 426 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: the like hysteria and criticism at all. It just feels 427 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: like they're they're not They're not the people we should 428 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: rely on to do much of anything. They have to 429 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:31,160 Speaker 1: be forced to be accountable to a public that they monetize. 430 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 1: And also remember all of these companies live on in 431 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: Internet that was paid for you know, I know it 432 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: was a long time ago in nineteen sixty nine by 433 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 1: US taxpayers. They're exploiting the public on on multiple levels, 434 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:47,479 Speaker 1: both in terms of investments that they've monetized for their 435 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,919 Speaker 1: own private benefit, just like you know, Visor, which seems 436 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: to be like the state corporation right now, and and 437 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: and Maderna. I'm all for vaccination, but but I don't 438 00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,320 Speaker 1: like this. I don't like that we are having a 439 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 1: privatized aation of public life on every single level. Right, Yeah, 440 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,880 Speaker 1: I agree that the system is sociopathic. I guess given 441 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 1: the amount of power and wealth that he has accumulated, 442 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: how do we begin to think about protecting ourselves from 443 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: Mark and other people like him. It's time for actual 444 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: decision making power to rest in the hands of third 445 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 1: parties that represent people, and there needs to be more 446 00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: of a relationship between private technology companies that have created 447 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: certain types of spaces and technologies that they should certainly 448 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: benefit from on an economic level and the rest of us. 449 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: You know, And you can't expect this to occur within 450 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,479 Speaker 1: the bubble of a tech company within the bubble of 451 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 1: this sort of hyper growth oriented, just valuation oriented, toxic 452 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: business model. So you know, I think I think we're 453 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: just going to have to try our best. I mean, 454 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: I tend to be someone who really deeply admires uh 455 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: Cornell West. Actually he's like my hero. He just calls 456 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: everyone my brother. So let's let's try to say, hey, Mark, 457 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: you're my brother. But you know, we're gonna call We're 458 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: gonna call stuff out, We're gonna keep it real, and 459 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna have to ensure that you that this kind 460 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: of you know, egregious offense I think upon people around 461 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: the world, especially the people who are most vulnerable, working 462 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,400 Speaker 1: class people. So one of the other levers that I've 463 00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: been thinking about, just as I've been circling this problem 464 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,119 Speaker 1: and trying to figure out how do we how do 465 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: we begin to get out of this One of the 466 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: other lovers is the employees. I mean, Francis Hogan is 467 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: one of a handful of employees which now include also 468 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: a co founder, Chris Hughes, who have spoken out, which 469 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: is incredibly courageous, particularly for her. I assume that Facebook, 470 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,040 Speaker 1: like most companies, is full of good people. How do 471 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: we encourage more of them to either you know, whistleblow 472 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: if they can, or just vote with their feet and 473 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: go do something else. I think that some of the 474 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: greatest activism in terms of actually raising our awareness as 475 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: a public around these issues are from employees within these companies. 476 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: So I have so much appreciation for people who work 477 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 1: in these companies. You know, a lot of engineers are 478 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: very good people, where they just aren't just like I 479 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 1: wasn't necessarily trained in all these other issues, but that 480 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 1: may not necessarily be their job. The problem is someone 481 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: needs to have that awareness, that kind of more holistic, interdisciplinary, 482 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,280 Speaker 1: you know, humanist kind of sensibility, and they need to 483 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: have you know, FIAT decision making power. And you know, 484 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: it's that that's the issue here. But I think when 485 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: I look towards the future, believe it or not, I 486 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 1: have a lot of I don't know if it's optimism 487 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 1: as much as determination that we can move things on 488 00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: a much better direction, in a much more human direction. 489 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to spend a little bit more time talking 490 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: about regulation sation. One of the things that you've said 491 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: is that we need legislation that to quote you, set 492 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: the right balance between free speech and algorithms that make 493 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: hate speech and blatantly false information from unreputable sources go viral, 494 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: And obviously I totally agree with that. What do you 495 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: see as the major challenges to regulation? What? What a 496 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,280 Speaker 1: great question, you know. I think in this particular case, 497 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: in a sort of strange way, I do have a 498 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: lot of hope because progressives, people in the center, and 499 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: Republicans kind of all are pretty miffed by the status 500 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: quo when it comes to where big tech companies are 501 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: a lot of Republicans like to claim that the tech 502 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: companies are biased against conservatives and conservative interests and that 503 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: they actually don't support free speech. A lot of people 504 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: on the more progressive side of the of the political 505 00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: spectrum are pretty outspoken about how sort of these oligopolic 506 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: tendencies have not kind of monopolistic tendencies can hijack an 507 00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: economy and hijack equality. So you know, whether it's equality 508 00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: or whether it's like you guys are biased against us 509 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: kind of thing, everyone's got a problem. So I think 510 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 1: that there are certain things we can do, and I've 511 00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,880 Speaker 1: been calling for what I call a digital Bill of Rights. 512 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: Senator Cloba Charge just introduced a Privacy Bill. It has 513 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: some aspects of what I've been calling for, which I 514 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,080 Speaker 1: would think I think is more progressive, you know, representative 515 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: real Kanda and who I think is really intelligent um 516 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 1: and or really brilliant on these issues, just released a 517 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: book on these issues. Has been an interesting figure in 518 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: these discussions. Here's a fertile ground for us to do 519 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,720 Speaker 1: something about the status quo. M that's good news. So 520 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: another thing I wanted to talk about is just the 521 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: frame of reference I guess that we bring to regulation 522 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: because for some reason, when we view tech companies, it's 523 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: viewed as a big deal to regulate them. But we 524 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: regulate for the common good all the time. Certain drugs 525 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: are illegal, or their age limits to things like drinking 526 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 1: or driving a car, flying an airplane. Why do you 527 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: think we don't automatically view Facebook or other big technology 528 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: companies through that same lens. I think it's because a 529 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: couple of things. I mean, first of all, it seems 530 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: different than a car. We use the car in very specific, 531 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: defined kinds of actions and activities, and so in those 532 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: activities were like, yeah, there should be seatbelts in the 533 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,760 Speaker 1: in the car, right, But our digital lives are our 534 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 1: lives increasing for better or worse. It's sort of saying like, 535 00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 1: our lives should be regulated, and I don't think people 536 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,120 Speaker 1: have an easy time wrapping their head around that. That's 537 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:44,760 Speaker 1: why we need actual regulators. And remember regulation is not 538 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 1: the enemy of business. Regulation actually allows businesses to maintain 539 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: their competitive edge. If you look at, for example, the 540 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 1: last time a major company was broken up in the 541 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: United States, that was a T and T. Last time 542 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: I checked, a T and T is doing pretty well 543 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,960 Speaker 1: right now, right, So it forced the company to actually compete. 544 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: And that is what regulation, at least in that particular case, 545 00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: antitrust action is about. In a way, it's about asking 546 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 1: the company to maintain integrity and actually innovative innovation in 547 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: this case isn't just creating a new iPhone that's going 548 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: to die in three years so we all have to 549 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 1: buy another one. So I want to spend the last 550 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: few minutes that we have trying to light a few 551 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: candles here, because obviously this is a tough problem, and 552 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 1: we really believe in the power of action to create change, 553 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 1: both inside companies and outside them. In the book, you 554 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 1: talk about a future where technology becomes stakeholder centered instead 555 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: of shareholder centered to get there, though you point out 556 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: that people should have a hand in designing their own technology, 557 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: how do we get there from here? It's such a 558 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: good question. So I think what we can do is 559 00:33:56,280 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 1: actually I think not like we we like we started 560 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,320 Speaker 1: with our conversation tie and not sort of have this 561 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: be about technology, but about what kind of world we 562 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: wish to live in. And I think that that question 563 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: is the most important question that should drive all our 564 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: discussions about many things, not only technology or Facebook. So 565 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: when I think about that world, it would be a 566 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 1: world where there is dignity and respect for all people's 567 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: right It would be where our individual rights would be 568 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: respects as sovereign human beings. You know, we wouldn't be 569 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: sources of manipulation and engines that fuel our depression and 570 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 1: anxiety and trauma and divisiveness. So I think that's one 571 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,400 Speaker 1: second is when we talk about stakeholders, we need to 572 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 1: understand what are the populations within the country, around the 573 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: world that are affected by decisions made about a large 574 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:58,160 Speaker 1: scale technology platform or platforms that are owned by Facebook 575 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 1: right in that three point five or so billion users. 576 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:05,239 Speaker 1: So in that case, we have a huge opportunity to 577 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: resolve some of the problems with the digital economy. Instead 578 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: of hiring a few exploited, traumatized content moderators in in 579 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,800 Speaker 1: in the Philippines, what if Facebook partnered with independent journalists 580 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: in every single country where it operated, so that those 581 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:27,320 Speaker 1: journalists could actually have power over mediating, you know, auditing, tweaking, 582 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 1: working with Facebook technologies so that they could reach people 583 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,319 Speaker 1: in those countries in ways that are more fair I 584 00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: mean by part is it hearing. So that's a huge idea, right, 585 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: this could be a huge way in which Facebook, which 586 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: is a trillion plus dollar valuated company. Right, we haven't 587 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 1: even talked about meta. Next time, I guess, I guess 588 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: next time, I'll be back. So when we say stakeholders, 589 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:51,480 Speaker 1: we need to think about those. We have to identify 590 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: groups of populations. We have to identify the groups whose 591 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: voices should be empowered. That can be done with this 592 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: great advice is a reboard in relation to Facebook, and 593 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,120 Speaker 1: then real steps need to be taken to arm those 594 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: different groups with greater power. That means that we moved 595 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: from disorientation to real collaboration. That's what I'm proposing. And 596 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 1: in the meantime, in our schools and our universities. We 597 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: need our STEM curriculate to not just be stem, but 598 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: to also be steam, including the arts and the humanities. 599 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 1: I think more than ever, people need to really study 600 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: the humanities and the social sciences so they can understand 601 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: the question what kind of human being do I want 602 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: to be? What kind of world do I want to 603 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: live in? Those are not questions, quite honestly, that are 604 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 1: usually asked in engineering classes. Yep, No, that's such a 605 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: great point. Okay, roomation. Last question on this show. We 606 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 1: have something called the BS scale, So it goes from 607 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: zero to one hundred, zero being the best zero BS 608 00:36:54,600 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 1: and being the worst BS. So Facebook says that their 609 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: purpose is to empower all of us to build community 610 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: and bring the world closer together. Where do we think 611 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,080 Speaker 1: Facebook falls on that scale in terms of actually living 612 00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: that purpose? Right now? I'll give them an a D 613 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 1: and be nice that way, because I do have hope, 614 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: because there are good people who work at Facebook. You 615 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: know them, I know them. I am willing to always 616 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 1: sort of hope for and and not in this moment 617 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: where people are so quickly calling one another out. I 618 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: try to follow a practice of compassion. I think that 619 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: there's a huge opportunity here where it could be at 620 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: an inflection point for real transformative change that is great 621 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,520 Speaker 1: for businesses but great for everyone else to write. And 622 00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 1: that is what I want us to get to. And 623 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,719 Speaker 1: I'm I'm determined. That's that's why I'm here with you. 624 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 1: I'm determined to do everything I can to take us 625 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: there because I'm a veteran of this world. We can 626 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:00,200 Speaker 1: do a lot about this. We can do a lot 627 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: about this, but we need to start with real dialogue 628 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:06,879 Speaker 1: and giving up some power and trusting one another, real collaboration. 629 00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: I love that vision. Based on that, what's the one 630 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: thing that you would tell Mark to do two to 631 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:16,640 Speaker 1: actually enact that, which would of course lower that score. 632 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: Sit down with the right kinds of scholars and journalists. 633 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: Let's all get together. Let's agree to some real actions 634 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,239 Speaker 1: that you can take based on what our conversation are. 635 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,319 Speaker 1: Agree and actually enact those actions. And here's another thing. 636 00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,360 Speaker 1: Let's do some A B testing. If you are to 637 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,720 Speaker 1: implement some of these changes, Let's see how much that actually, 638 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: if at all, detracts from your you know what they 639 00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 1: call engagement, so you know, attention is their currency. As 640 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: you alluded to earlier, so like, is that really the case? 641 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: You know, if I were exposed to interesting content that's 642 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: not just crazy trauma hype machine content, and it was 643 00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:59,280 Speaker 1: just sort of like maybe interesting in other ways. Uh, 644 00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: I don't because human beings we only like to look 645 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: at burning cars. I really don't. I think human beings 646 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 1: are more complex than that, and I think human beings 647 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,600 Speaker 1: are also activated by things that activate their interests and 648 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:16,359 Speaker 1: expand their imagination. And call me a hopeful optimist about humanity, 649 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: but you know what, we gotta fight for what we 650 00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 1: mean by humanity here moving forward. That's right, Dent. It 651 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: just reminds me of one of the ideas that someone 652 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: put forward in the first episode was instead of a 653 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,600 Speaker 1: like button, let's try different kinds of buttons like maybe 654 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 1: made me think button right. Things that encourage you to 655 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: think critically about what it is that you're looking at. 656 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 1: Things that encourage you to engage in healthier behaviors and 657 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:50,080 Speaker 1: with healthier content. This was so great. I so appreciate 658 00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: your being here with us today and thank you. Oh 659 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:56,879 Speaker 1: it's my pleasure. This was a great conversation, and thank 660 00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 1: you for having this podcast. I had no idea when 661 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,440 Speaker 1: I started looking at Facebook that they would turn out 662 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 1: to be such a complicated story, or that their score 663 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: would be so high. But the b S score just 664 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: goes way up when you know about the BS and 665 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,920 Speaker 1: decide to look the other way, and it goes up 666 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,919 Speaker 1: even further if you decide to try to hide it 667 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,000 Speaker 1: to me. The tragedy here is that Facebook has so 668 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: much potential to do good, the ability to support and 669 00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 1: promote great causes at scale, a way to share important 670 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 1: information about a pandemic, for instance, at scale connectivity in 671 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: all parts of the world. That's what I want from 672 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,200 Speaker 1: my social media. The really big line is that they 673 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: have to pursue this antiquated and dying form of capitalism 674 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:56,640 Speaker 1: that puts short term profitability over humanity. I am convinced 675 00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,879 Speaker 1: that it's ultimately bad for business, and that the mark 676 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: will prove this out over the long term. So I'm 677 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: going to raise Facebook's BS score. Remember the scale is 678 00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:13,400 Speaker 1: from zero to one, zero being the best zero BS, 679 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: a hundred being the worst total BS. In episode one, 680 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:21,600 Speaker 1: we gave them a seventy two. We're raising it twenty 681 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,959 Speaker 1: points to two. Some might say even that is too low, 682 00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 1: but we're going to spare them those eight points because, 683 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,799 Speaker 1: like Cromace, I believe the company has a bunch of 684 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,239 Speaker 1: good people working inside to try to change it, so 685 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: there's always hope. And if you're running a purpose led 686 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: business or thinking of beginning the journey of transformation to 687 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,080 Speaker 1: become one, here are three things you should take away 688 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: from today's episode. Today, I'm going to switch it up 689 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,759 Speaker 1: and do these in the form of predictions. One, with 690 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: a b S score of ninety two, I predict that 691 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,520 Speaker 1: Facebook is going to lose the war for talent. Young 692 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: people today want to work in organizations that align with 693 00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: their values. The very best people won't be interested in 694 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:13,000 Speaker 1: joining Facebook, and those already there will leave. If you're 695 00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,560 Speaker 1: running a purpose led business, keeping your BS score as 696 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 1: low as you can is a competitive advantage too. Being 697 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:27,120 Speaker 1: an ultra high BS company attracts regulators. I predict that 698 00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: at the very least, the days of Facebook's anti competitive 699 00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: behavior of just acquiring or copying competitors is over. If 700 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: you're lucky enough to be running a purpose led business 701 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,359 Speaker 1: that gets big, a low BS score keeps congress away. 702 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:49,280 Speaker 1: And three, being an ultra high BS company destroys shareholder value. 703 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: I predict that Facebook investors who in the short term 704 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,000 Speaker 1: have benefited from all this bad behavior will start to suffer. 705 00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,080 Speaker 1: There is a massive shift taking place in capital is 706 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,040 Speaker 1: um right now. We're seeing the largest intergenerational transfer of 707 00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: wealth in history, as boomers age out and transfer their 708 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: money to the next generations. Those generations want to invest 709 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: that money in ways that align with their values. So 710 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,919 Speaker 1: if you're starting or leading a purpose led business, low 711 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,879 Speaker 1: bs will improve your ability to access capital to grow 712 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:28,080 Speaker 1: that business privately or in the public markets. Usually at 713 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,400 Speaker 1: this point in the show, I would extend an invitation 714 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: to Mark Zuckerberg if he ever wants to join us 715 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,279 Speaker 1: to chat. That door will always be open, Mark, But 716 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: I'd also like to extend an invitation to Facebook employees 717 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,759 Speaker 1: who continue to fight the good fight. If any of 718 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: you ever want to come on our show, you have 719 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: an open invitation. Thanks to our guest today, Ramas Srinivasa. 720 00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: You can find out more about him on our website 721 00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 1: Calling Ship podcast dot com. If you have ideas for 722 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: companies or organizations we should consider for future episodes, you 723 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,760 Speaker 1: can submit them on the site too, And I highly 724 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:16,200 Speaker 1: recommend you check out Romation's book Beyond the Valley. Subscribe 725 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 1: to the Calling Bullshit podcast on the I Heart Radio app, 726 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:24,280 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, and thanks 727 00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: to our production team Hannah Beal, Jess Fenton, Amanda Ginsburgh, 728 00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: Andy Kim, D s Moss, Mikaela Reid, Basil Soaper and 729 00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:39,320 Speaker 1: me John Zulu. Calling Bullshit was created by co Collective 730 00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: and is hosted by me Time Montague. Thanks for listening, 731 00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:50,400 Speaker 1: Ye