1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:24,640 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. M Hello, 4 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, my 5 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: name is known the Iron Maiden Brown. They called me Ben. 6 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: We are joining with our returning super producer Paul decant Uh. 7 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 1: And most importantly, you are here. You are you that 8 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: makes this stuff they don't want you to know. By 9 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 1: the self described moniker, one of our co hosts just 10 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: added you you may sense a bit of foreshadowing in 11 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: today's episode. Today's episode is a little dark, but let's 12 00:00:57,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: get into it with an anecdote. I get adequate, in 13 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: adequate clothing and medical care when I required. Voice you 14 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: just heard was Admiral Jeremiah Denton of the United States Navy. 15 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: On July eighteenth, nineteen sixty five, his U S Navy 16 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: jet was shot down while leading an air attack over 17 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: North Vietnam. He was captured, and he remained in the 18 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: country as a prisoner of war until nineteen seventy three. 19 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:37,920 Speaker 1: It's quite a long time now after like during that 20 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: first full year that he was a prisoner of war, 21 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: he was interviewed for this propaganda peace essentially from the 22 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: North vietnam Namese. He was filmed being interviewed by a 23 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: member of the Japanese press, and during this interview he 24 00:01:52,560 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: states several things that you heard. Um, he's getting adequate 25 00:01:56,520 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: food and clothing and medical care. Um. And also they 26 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: he supports the United States government and all of its actions. 27 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 1: And that's probably not something that his captors wanted him 28 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: to say, if it truly was a propaganda piece, which 29 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: it appears to be. Um. But here's the thing. What 30 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,480 Speaker 1: you can't see because you're not watching the film, is 31 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,640 Speaker 1: that he is blinking all the while that he's talking, 32 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: and what he is spelling out is actually Morse code, 33 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: and he's spelling out the word torture. And we actually 34 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,839 Speaker 1: have a quick clip here of what that would sound like. 35 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 1: And this stuck out to the analyst on Uncle Sam's 36 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: side because they knew that didn't did not have some 37 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: sort of medical condition that would cause him to blink 38 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 1: radically absolutely, And when the U. S. Naval Intelligence got 39 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: ahold of this, this was the first time they had 40 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: had any kind of communication from one of these prison 41 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: camps that was existing in North Vietnam that actually stated 42 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: in anyway that they were being tortured, that the American 43 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 1: POWs were being tortured. And he's doing this repeatedly in 44 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 1: different interviews or is this all in one sit down? 45 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: This is one sit down, but he is just continually 46 00:03:11,200 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 1: spelling the word. And these propaganda videos were relatively common 47 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: in this age from different governments, where you would have 48 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 1: someone say, yes, we are being treated well, we are 49 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 1: being taken care of, when multiple outside sources suspected that 50 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: this was not the case. Today's episode is diving into 51 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: dark and grizzly territory, and we would like all of 52 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: you friends, neighbors, conspiracy realists, and skeptics alike to know 53 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: up front that this show is going to contain graphic 54 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: descriptions of horrific physical and mental abuse you see today. 55 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,080 Speaker 1: We are exploring the past, the present, and the future 56 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: of torture, given the ubiquitous nature of torture throughout human history, 57 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 1: even before or recorded human history, because we were as 58 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: a species torturing each other before we were writing things down. 59 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: We won't be delving into too many specific cases, but 60 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: we will inevitably run into several strange examples of this practice. 61 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: So here are the facts. First things first, what what's 62 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: the operative definition of torture? Yeah, torture is um the 63 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: deliberate infliction of physical and or I mean, I guess 64 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:33,280 Speaker 1: it could be one of the other psychological pain with 65 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: the purpose of obtaining information or extorting a confession from 66 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: the victim and thus enabling a conviction. It can also 67 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: be the penalty itself, um and I get that. That's 68 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: like a good, cut and dry definition of it. Don't 69 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: some people torture just for the sheer thrill of doing 70 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: it with no end game in mind. Well, a lot 71 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 1: of this comes from the u N outlining exactly what 72 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: torture is in I believe right right the the acronym uncat, 73 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:07,840 Speaker 1: which might be the only funny thing about this episode, 74 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: which we will dive into. And that's a great point 75 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 1: because this sounds on the surface like a pretty solid definition, 76 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: but of course not everyone agrees with it, because there 77 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: is torture simply for statistic purposes, typically not from a 78 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: state level actor. It would be someone who wants to 79 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: torture someone and maybe they're doing it while employed by 80 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:33,359 Speaker 1: the state, but they're getting their own dark giggles in 81 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 1: the process. And then what about the difference between state 82 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: sponsored torture and enhanced interrogation? Right? Right? Is this a 83 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 1: brand name difference is there? Is it a matter of 84 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,919 Speaker 1: degree or the fundamentally different things. Experts like gr Scott, 85 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 1: who in the late nineteenth century wrote a book about torture, 86 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 1: says that it's devilishly easy to make a definition of 87 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: torture that's either too narrow only a specific kind of 88 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: thing can be considered torture, or it's too wide in scope. 89 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 1: You know, like, uh, I was I was tortured because 90 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: I had to listen to someone tell me yet again 91 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: the plot of Looper, that's not quite torture. I mean, 92 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: maybe it is, if it they just do it forever 93 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: for a year. But for today's purposes, we're going to 94 00:06:22,160 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 1: go with the definition that Noel just mentioned earlier. The 95 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: systematic use of torture in criminal procedures or criminal proceedings 96 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: dates back to some of our earliest civilizations, and it's 97 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: creepy when you think about it. Scenes depicting torture can 98 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 1: be found on different monuments, right, oh yeah, in everywhere 99 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: in these ancient areas from Mesopotamia, Egypt all over. Yeah, 100 00:06:50,440 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: and the first records of a legal application of torture 101 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: to prove something, to prove guilt or innocence were found 102 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: in the Sumarian Code of Urnmua. It's around the twenty 103 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: first century b C. And then the Babylonian Code of 104 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: Hammurabi in the century b C. Again, and the procedure 105 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: describe the the divine judgment of the water ordeal, which 106 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: is what it's torture. And as this practice became increasingly 107 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: codified because it was already common right in different raiding 108 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: parties from tribes and so on, as it became part 109 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 1: of the rule of law, the administration of torture took 110 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: different directions depending on the civilization. So ancient Greeks and 111 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,679 Speaker 1: Romans used it for interrogation. And this is really interesting 112 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: because this is something that haunts us. I would argue 113 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: in the current age. Until the second century a d 114 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: torture was only supposed to be used on slaves, with 115 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: some notable exceptions, and in fact, a slave's testimony in 116 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: any sort of legal proceeding was only admissible if they 117 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: had been tortured first. That's insane, Yeah, that's the assumption 118 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: is that you couldn't trust slaves to reveal the truth 119 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: of their own accord. That is messed up on so 120 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 1: many levels. It is because can you imagine being a 121 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,280 Speaker 1: slave and saying, yes, I know I saw you, know, 122 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,200 Speaker 1: Sabbat or whatever, take the water jug and they're like, look, 123 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: we believe you, but unfortunately I am going to have 124 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: to break like one of your hands. Well, and then 125 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: are you sure you saw him take it? Are you sure? 126 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,160 Speaker 1: And continue breaking until the person says no, Well, and 127 00:08:39,200 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 1: I'm sure. We're gonna get into this later. But it's like, 128 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: now we know that torture typically renders accounts unreliable, right 129 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: because you're gonna say whatever it takes to make them stop. 130 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 1: We're going to get into that on exactly how reliable 131 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: or not torture techniques are. Yeah, the I mean this idea, though, 132 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: the fundamental assumption about the efficacy of torture is like 133 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:10,440 Speaker 1: a concept that haunts humanity like a ghost, and it it. 134 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 1: The consequences of this philosophy remain with us today and 135 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: have been here for millennia. In some areas of the world, 136 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 1: acts of torture were grouped into different categories. You would 137 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: have something like first, second, or third degree, and they 138 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: were they were rated in terms of pain, and unlike 139 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: the modern way that degrees are interpreted in the legal 140 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 1: system the US today, like first degree murder is worse 141 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: than second degree murder. Just flip, just flip it, flip it. 142 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: So first degree torture in this kind of system would 143 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:50,520 Speaker 1: be something that causes pain but does not permanently mutilate 144 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: the body, such as whipping or the many variations thereof, 145 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,559 Speaker 1: or just you know, beating the ever loving snot out 146 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: of someone. One very whipping would be something called bastinado 147 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: or filic. It's foot whipping. So it sounds silly at 148 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: first when when you're thinking out and you're just slapping 149 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 1: someone's feet. No, there if you rip the shreds and 150 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: they needed these to walk. So that's the first degree, 151 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: and the second degree ups the anti quite a bit, 152 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: I would say. And this is where you'll find things 153 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: like vices or racks, things that um either crush or 154 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, like stretched to the point of not killing 155 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 1: but pretty much mutilating someone. Of these are like screw presses, 156 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, where you where your thumbs would be crushed, 157 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: your toes or really any knees, feet, teeth, any kind 158 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: of way Basically that's where you get to second degree, 159 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: where that you're not going to look and function the 160 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,680 Speaker 1: same after you've been tortured, and you you may well die, 161 00:10:55,760 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: but they're not purposely they're deciding to. And that's like 162 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: when where they would like put you on the rack 163 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: and like stretch you to the point where your bones 164 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: would break and things like that. Right, that's that second 165 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: or what yeah, or what would be called maybe uh 166 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: a restraint position like the so called Palestinian hanging there. 167 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: But these both well horrific pale in comparison to the 168 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: third degree. Yeah. The third degree is where it really 169 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: starts to make your skin crawl. This is the kind 170 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 1: of torture that was the most insidious and dangerous of 171 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: all um utterly nightmare fuel, the kind of stuff that 172 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: you hear in fiction that you're you would almost question 173 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: who would come up with this idea. It's all very 174 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,840 Speaker 1: creative stuff too, So we're talking spikes and blades and 175 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: boiling oil and fire and things with names of it 176 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: alone will just send shivers up your spine, like the 177 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: serrated iron tongue shredder not an ironic name, the hot 178 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: opper basin for a bascination. The that's the word of 179 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: the day, destroying someone's eyesight, that's right. Uh. And oh 180 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: and the stocks that forcibly held the victim's feet over 181 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: red hot coals um and then yeah, until the skin 182 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: and the foot muscles were burnt black and the bones 183 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: completely uh turned to powder. The feet were the skin 184 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: of the few were also coated and lard beforehand, which 185 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 1: is an extra gruesome detail. And what what we just 186 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: described on that third degree, it's very clear that, especially 187 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: before the advent of modern medicine, someone's chances of surviving 188 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: any of those was remarkably slim. Just the infection. Can 189 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: you imagine the infection, the bleeding out from these various wounds. 190 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: And it's one of those things too where unless they 191 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: needed to keep you alive because they really wanted to 192 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: continue to extra act information from you, it's not like 193 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: they were going to give you any kind of medical 194 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: attention right away unless it was, you know, worth their 195 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: while to do so. Right, they might have someone pray 196 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,680 Speaker 1: for you, but that person might be praying while they're 197 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: doing that thing on and the worst thing is that 198 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 1: is not for me. The worst thing is that it's 199 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: not just for interrogation purposes. Sometimes the whole reason that 200 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: a human being would have to go through this is 201 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: so that whatever group is doing the torturing can set 202 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: an example for what happens if you either defy the 203 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: group in power or or even just some kind of 204 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: dissenter from the group in power. Um that that bothers 205 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: me to the end. The people are starving and there's 206 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: a widespread theft of grain, and someone says, well, we 207 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:52,920 Speaker 1: need the bulk of these serfs or peasants whatever to 208 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: survive and to farm land. So let's just publicly eviscerate 209 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: one of them, just so they know, literally not just 210 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: give them a good talking to right there, flesh, leave 211 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 1: the heads somewhere visible, a pike perhaps, And you know, 212 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: you can get into arguments about controlling a population through 213 00:14:12,840 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: fear or through you know, the various ways that you 214 00:14:15,160 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 1: can do that from a high level, but man, it 215 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: just seems too brutal to make much sense. And the 216 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 1: type of abuse administered here would typically depend on the 217 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:28,800 Speaker 1: setting the transgression, the social status of the victims. So, 218 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: for example, in Europe, Elizabeth Bathory orbet bath Thy, because 219 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 1: of her high station, was not murdered or burned at 220 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 1: a steak or impaled, she was walled into a room 221 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: where she didn't start to death, she was fed until 222 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: she died. She was put on, not to be too 223 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: glib about it, permanent time out or solitary confinement. And 224 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: people argue that that sort of injustice or inequality of 225 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: consequence occurs today. I think the that the four of 226 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: us would largely agree that is the case, at least 227 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: here in the States, and for centuries and centuries various 228 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: civilizations across the globe, we all just sort of took 229 00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: it for granted that horrific physical degradations, mutilations, and abuses 230 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: were par for the course when it came to dissent 231 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: a crime, or even rubbing the wrong important person the 232 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: wrong way. And if we fast forward to the modern day, 233 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: humanity started to realize this as a problem. Yeah, where 234 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: where did you get clicked for humanity? Man? In the 235 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,920 Speaker 1: world wars? Yeah, in the World Wars. That's I believe 236 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 1: when the public around the world said, what Charnel houses? 237 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: What abatois are we building? You know? And that was 238 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 1: library impetus for the United Nations to codify protections against torture. 239 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,800 Speaker 1: And as you had said Matt. This didn't happen, actually 240 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: happen or get adopted into law until the nineteen eighties. Okay, 241 00:16:14,080 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: so it took a long time for it to click 242 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: for humanity, right as well, it took a long time 243 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 1: for the make it official. Uh there, you know, and 244 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,160 Speaker 1: there are things before their Rules of Engagement for war 245 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: treatment of POWs. But the Convention against Torture and Other 246 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: Cruel and Human or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, commonly known 247 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: as UNCAT or the United Nations Convention against Torture, wasn't 248 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: adopted until nineteen four. It was ratified in nineteen seven. 249 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: And so they used a definition that's a little bit 250 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: different from the one we used at the top. Yeah, 251 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: this comes from Article one of the Convention. Quote for 252 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:53,040 Speaker 1: the purpose of this Convention, the term torture means any 253 00:16:53,080 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, 254 00:16:56,560 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as 255 00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 1: obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, 256 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: punishing him for an act he or a third person 257 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,360 Speaker 1: has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating 258 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: or coercing him or a third person, or for any 259 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: reason based on discrimination of any kind. When such pain 260 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 1: or suffering is inflicted by, or at the instigation of, 261 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: or with the consent or acquiescence of, a public official, 262 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,160 Speaker 1: for other person acting in an official capacity, it does 263 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: not include pain or suffering arising only from inherent, in 264 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,800 Speaker 1: or incidental to lawful sanctions. Tut, Tut, tut. Can you 265 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: unpack that first, Ben? I read it, but I don't 266 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 1: think I took it in. Well, one of the big 267 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: things there is that right at the end, putting in 268 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: lawful sanctions. So if it's if it's part of the 269 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: law in the country where this is occurring, as this 270 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,359 Speaker 1: is the type of punishment, it feels like there's a 271 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: lot of wiggle room there. Right, we can see the 272 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,439 Speaker 1: problems with this. So three of the big things that happened. 273 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: Noll you you point. You made the excellent point about 274 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 1: a third person that shows up, because there are people 275 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: who will gladly die for a cause, but they don't 276 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: want their children or their spouse to. And then the 277 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 1: second huge point about this is the involvement of a 278 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 1: public official or someone acting in an official capacity. So 279 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: this is banning state sponsored acts of this sort of violence. 280 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 1: This is not banning. Uh there's not specifically meant. It's 281 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 1: harget you know, the day Matt snaps and abduct someone, Okay, 282 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: getting the getting the crazy eyes, Sorry Matt. Moving on? 283 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: What would it take? What would it take for a 284 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:49,719 Speaker 1: Matt snap? A Matt snap? Mm hmm. You don't know. 285 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: Maybe that's it you did, you don't know, probably my family, 286 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: but I don't. I don't know that I would abduct anybody. 287 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,199 Speaker 1: I think you've feel like you, I feel like you 288 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 1: know exactly what the lion on Matt step is in 289 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: God hope we never cross it. We wouldn't be absolutely clear, 290 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: of course. No. I think you can agree with me 291 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: here that of the three of us, Matt is probably 292 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:20,280 Speaker 1: the nicest, like legitimately and not not prone to unducting people. 293 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: Of course he's not prone, but when the snap happens, man, 294 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: stand back. I guess you never know when when a 295 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: snap occurs. That's the nature of it. It's very much 296 00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 1: the nature of it. But it could happen any of us, 297 00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: and we all have our limits. And that's why I 298 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,560 Speaker 1: think it's interesting you brought up the third party situation 299 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: because that is uh a, it's it's dirty pool my man, 300 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: you know, taking someone's loved ones and you know, using 301 00:19:47,280 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: them as a as a tool to extract information out 302 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 1: of someone. That is just like the most horrific thing 303 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 1: that you could possibly do, I think, you know, or 304 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: even just like a co pilot or a partner, someone 305 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: who's in the same squad as you are, because now 306 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 1: you're responsible for the life of another. So ethically, it 307 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: puts someone in the position where they have to ask, 308 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: am I committing murder by an action? But the third 309 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 1: the third point. So the first point is the thing 310 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: about a third party. The second point is the state action. 311 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: And to follow up the third point here, and one 312 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: of the most dangerous ones is the idea of lawful sanctions. 313 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: What they're saying then is that if there is a 314 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: sanctioned action, anything from depriving the civilians of a country 315 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: of food due to an economic sanction or a military 316 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: incursion that results in the death or mutilation of civilians, 317 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: that does not count as torture. And this debate continues 318 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:58,880 Speaker 1: in the international sphere today. Regrettably, we can we can 319 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,720 Speaker 1: probably already a good spider sense of which countries have 320 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: what positions. Yeah, well, especially if we go back to 321 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: the top with that example of the Navy airman who is, 322 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:14,560 Speaker 1: you know, telling people that he's been tortured and this 323 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: is part of the Vietnam conflict. And then you imagine 324 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: historically what we know the U. S. Military was doing 325 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:26,919 Speaker 1: two civilians in places all over North Vietnam. And you know, 326 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: since it's States sanctioned, you know, we're talking about the 327 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:35,239 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies then during the Vietnam conflict. But so 328 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,920 Speaker 1: it's well before a decade before the U. N says 329 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: this is what torture is. But at the same time, 330 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: both sides are doing one form of torture or another. 331 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 1: That's a great point. And we should also note that 332 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 1: in many cases it's not as if the president or 333 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: the ruling party or the monarch of the country said 334 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: you soldiers, go out torture people. Often this fog of 335 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: war mission creep would set in and there would be 336 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: factions of people or officials acting relatively of their own accord, 337 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 1: thinking that the ends justify the means. And so we 338 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: can already see the problems with this definition, as lengthy 339 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: as it is and as specific as it attempts to be. 340 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 1: But regardless of the imperfections, the concept itself seems noble, right, 341 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: stop torturing people, especially when there's not a lot of 342 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: evidence that it works as intended. So case closed, right, 343 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 1: and we'll get into y after a quick sponsor break. 344 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. The idea that everybody can 345 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: agree to stop torturing people is uh, the idea that 346 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 1: this work is wrong, and fortunately it is so so 347 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: so cartoonishly incorrect. According to the scholar irv and Abramaan, 348 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: although there were several decades of prohibition against torture generally 349 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: agreed that spread from Europe to most parts of the world, 350 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: by the nineteen eighties that that ban was functionally off. 351 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:25,439 Speaker 1: The taboo against torture had been broken. Yes, he argued 352 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:29,120 Speaker 1: that torture quote returned with a vengeance, and a lot 353 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,679 Speaker 1: of this had to do with the advent of television 354 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: or the way television was kind of changing, and it 355 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:40,360 Speaker 1: presented an opportunity to break political prisoners and then broadcast 356 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: the results. Um, the public recantation is kind of like 357 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: we're mentioning at the top of the show. They wanted 358 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:51,120 Speaker 1: that airmen to say, I don't believe in the ideologies 359 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: of the United States government. They are wrong that's what 360 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 1: they want to be able to broadcast to everyone. Um. 361 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: And the idea, the idea is that if you torture 362 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: someone enough, you can change, you know, you can make 363 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 1: them say what you want for your ideological means and 364 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: and just recanting, Yeah, political beliefs. Idea using this ideological 365 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: warfare and political mobilization and the need to win the 366 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,479 Speaker 1: hearts and minds of people who exist in a country 367 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: where war is being waged. Very it's it's Orwellian when 368 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: you think about it, you know. And if anything, then, 369 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: according to this expert, in the wake of the World wars, 370 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: torture as a widespread practice momentarily maybe sort of kind 371 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: of a little bit paused for a second. But now 372 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: if we fast forward a little closer to the modern age, 373 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 1: we find that that is not the case. According to 374 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: Human Rights Watch, between two thousand four and two thousand five, 375 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: over sixteen countries were documented using torture, state sponsored torture. Yeah, 376 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: and then you go to the war on terror, the 377 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,720 Speaker 1: global War on terror, right where we know black sites. 378 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: We've covered this before on an episode. Black sites have 379 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: been used where torture occurs. And it's not just the 380 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: United States, right, is not just the This is not 381 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,280 Speaker 1: just an episode picking on the United States. And often 382 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: these things are occurring through a second or third hand thing. 383 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: There's a proxy. Uh So, despite being banned, torture continues 384 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,720 Speaker 1: in countries around the globe, and this ancient practice shows 385 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: no signs of abating. In fact, our species has effectively 386 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: leveraged technology to arrive at new forms of physical and 387 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,919 Speaker 1: psychological abuse. One thing we learned about in the course 388 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: of our research, which initially didn't sound that bad, was 389 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: the so called cold cell treatment. And this comes this 390 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:49,880 Speaker 1: is an Uncle Sam. Original prisoners are placed in front 391 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 1: of a large air conditioner unit running on full blast. 392 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 1: That doesn't sound bad right at first, Probably it's kind 393 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: of nice, depending on where you are, I mean for 394 00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:03,120 Speaker 1: the first day, or for maybe even for the first week. 395 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: But what about a month, what about a year? Yeah, 396 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: that is the so called cold cell treatment. And we 397 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: should make we should make a point that it's allegedly 398 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: happened for years, but we're required technically to say allegedly. Yeah, 399 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: I wonder what that does to the human body. And 400 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of information about exactly how 401 00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: cold the air conditioner unit gets too, But we're I'm 402 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 1: assuming if it's an air conditioner rather than some kind 403 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: of like refrigeration device, it's probably in the lower to 404 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: mid sixties. So it's probably it's not fatal. It's probably 405 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: more psychological. That's exactly what it is. So so what 406 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,720 Speaker 1: else have we found? What other technology have we turned to? 407 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: Tortuous ends electricity That's one of the major things that's 408 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,640 Speaker 1: been used in modern times of everything from cattle prods 409 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,480 Speaker 1: to stun guns two lasers being used by mostly mostly 410 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: security forces like police forces, UM and militaries. And it's 411 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:18,400 Speaker 1: strange to imagine, especially in the United States. They the 412 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 1: modern stun gun did not originate as a less than 413 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: lethal weapon for police officers the way we you know 414 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 1: nowadays see it a lot of the times a taser. 415 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 1: You know, um, it was it was a cattle prod, 416 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 1: and then it became a way to control prisoners specifically UM, 417 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,360 Speaker 1: and then it kind of evolved. Wow. And then also 418 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: this would be going to the earlier point made knowl 419 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: about torture and fiction. This would be where a car 420 00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: battery is hooked up to something and then they they 421 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,960 Speaker 1: shocked the person with the car battery, which is a 422 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: very real thing though. Absolutely, here's a weird one, the 423 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: so called white torture. What is this? I don't know 424 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: this this sounds this is psychological, but it sounds very strange. 425 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: A prisoner is in solitary confinement and everything in there world, 426 00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: everything they encounter, including the food they eat and the 427 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: plates eat from white blank white. Dude. You know that's 428 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: in j Lo's rider that, like everything in her dressing 429 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: room has to be white. What do you think she originated? 430 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,879 Speaker 1: Maybe this make should call it the j LO torture? 431 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: This this is real. That's that's real. That's a thing 432 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: that's not some interior designer being like playful. I can 433 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: imagine that being another psychological torture device that just I 434 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: don't know somehow, Yeah, especially like can you imagine combining 435 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: the cold cell, the white cold cell is what they 436 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: would call it, with lights on all the time, also 437 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: no human contact, playing the same song over and over 438 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: and you know that's that might sound like that's a 439 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: lot for us to put on Jennifer Lopez, but it 440 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 1: is in her rider that everything has to be white, 441 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: and she has been responsible for some atrocities though that's true. Ah, 442 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: I have not. I haven't either, heard it was really 443 00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: bad atrocity. Maybe that's a little overst overstate. In the case, 444 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: I did like to sell though. I did like the 445 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: cell as well. I enjoyed it. I felt from from 446 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: the perspective cinematography, it was just stunning. The guy that 447 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: directed that, Tarsim Singh, did those early R E M videos, 448 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:41,560 Speaker 1: very nineties kind of tableaus with like the rotating the platform, 449 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: and he's on with them. Anyway, I didn't that guy 450 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: basically invented the look of like the Pearl Jam video 451 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: from the nineties. And anyway, he's got some amazing other 452 00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: movies with a fall. The Fall is a good one. 453 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: Oh and speaking of music, this brings us to another 454 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: form of technologically advanced torture that long time listeners are 455 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: familiar with. Yeah, it's just music torture, right like, and 456 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,600 Speaker 1: I think a part of it doesn't necessarily have to 457 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 1: be incredibly loud. But whenever you see it done and 458 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: you dramatized in film, is usually some absurd stack of 459 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 1: you know, bas in the trunk kind of car stereo speakers. 460 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: They're just blasting the stuff at really high decibel levels. 461 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: We're talking about, you know, the idea. I think is repetition. 462 00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: It would be the same song over and over and 463 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: over and over again, whether it's Metallica or Britney Spears 464 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 1: or even a very popular one Bend I think you 465 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: mentioned before on another episode is the Barney song. Yeah, 466 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: did you know that guy's a tantric sex guru? Now, 467 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,239 Speaker 1: the guy that played Barney, does he still wear the costume? Now? 468 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: I think he's, Oh, I need to get that out 469 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 1: of my head already. He mainly just wears scented oils 470 00:30:52,240 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: and lotions and nothing else. A fine musk. The The 471 00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 1: other practice that we found was forced feeding, including using 472 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:14,640 Speaker 1: some medical advances to feed people rectally, similar to uh 473 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: gross real life version of that South Park trope. Yeah, 474 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: and a lot of this you'll see in the news. Um. 475 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: And it's not necessarily used as a torture, but as 476 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: a way to keep people who are prisoners alive if 477 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: they're having some kind of protest where they're they're doing 478 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: self starvation in process of their captivity. And so again, 479 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: it's it's crazy to think that the method to preserve 480 00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: someone's life can also be used to torture them. Yes, yeah, 481 00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:50,239 Speaker 1: and that goes into an ethical question as well. You 482 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: know this is something that we didn't discuss off air, 483 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: but it just occurred to me. Now, if somebody wants 484 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: to die, right, if want to commit medically assisted suicide 485 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: with their own accord and they are legally required to 486 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: stay alive, is that this in a state of pain, 487 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: perhaps from a chronic condition. Is that the state aiding 488 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:18,440 Speaker 1: in torture? Or is you know what's the line there? 489 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: That's a tough ethical question we should Um, is there 490 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,160 Speaker 1: an ethicist in the house? Paul, are you an ethicist? Okay, 491 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 1: but you know that's in that's something we I wonder 492 00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:35,480 Speaker 1: if the u N has pondered that. I haven't seen 493 00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,640 Speaker 1: anything anything recently at least well, and let's just I 494 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,240 Speaker 1: don't know, I'm gonna talk about the elephant in the room, 495 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: or at least my elephant. You know. The u N 496 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: kind of gets a lot of flak as being a 497 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: somewhat toothless organization, like you can make these resolutions, um, 498 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, it's just kind 499 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: of you know, words on paper, and there's very little 500 00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 1: enforcement ability that the u N has. Correct me if 501 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 1: I'm wrong, you are correct. The The primary power structure 502 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: of the United Nations is the U n Security Council, 503 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: and they can each member the UN Security Council can 504 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: veto an entire concept. So it has to things have 505 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: to pass unanimously. So it is very very very very difficult. 506 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: It's not as bad and ineffectual as the predecessor, the 507 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: League of Nations. But yeah, you're you're spot on. When 508 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: do words on paper translate to substantive change? Yeah, no, 509 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: that that that that kind of is the question, and 510 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 1: that's sort of you know, we're talking about the shift 511 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: of consciousness um as a country when we decide as 512 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: a people that torture is not okay. But yet if 513 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: if it's still is thought by some as being an 514 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 1: effective tool, whether or not there are resolutions on the 515 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: books or not. At the end of the day, if 516 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: you think it's going to get the job done, you're 517 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: probably gonna figure out a way to get around it 518 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: and do it, you know, especially when we have things 519 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: like black sites and you know, stuff where there's very 520 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:11,480 Speaker 1: little oversights and you have heads of these divisions that 521 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 1: essentially act as gods of their little fiefdoms, you know, 522 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,920 Speaker 1: So it's tough. Yeah, like secret police, for instance, throughout 523 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: a lot of throughout a lot of recent history. And 524 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,239 Speaker 1: that's the point that is the stuff they don't want 525 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: you to know here in this in this episode, it's 526 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: the fact that there are numerous active conspiracies as we speak, 527 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:41,359 Speaker 1: we're not talking about we're not talking about nineteen seventy four, 528 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: we're not talking about two thousand and seven. We're talking 529 00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: about twenty eighteen. As we are recording this, there are 530 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:53,040 Speaker 1: numerous active cover ups and conspiracies allowing various governments around 531 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: the world, including the United States, but not limited to 532 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: Uncle Sam to commit torture, either through proxy or euphemisms 533 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:06,759 Speaker 1: like enhanced interrogation or good old fashioned secret police. As 534 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: as you guys pointed out, black sites off the line 535 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: item budgets written out of your history books, and we 536 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: might never know what happens with it. And this forces 537 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: us to ask about the future of torture. And we'll 538 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: get into that right after a quick word from our sponsor. 539 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,440 Speaker 1: So we're back and no, only you brought up this 540 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: excellent point, especially in the case of US intelligence services, 541 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: military arms. The primary argument for these techniques is that 542 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,480 Speaker 1: is something along the lines of, well, they might be deplorable, 543 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: but they do result invaluable or what they would call 544 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:53,400 Speaker 1: actionable intelligence that can ultimately save lives. And the scenario 545 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: you'll often hear uh described by people supporting these programs 546 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: is the following. It's something called the time bomb scenario. Yeah, 547 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,400 Speaker 1: imagine that you're an authority figure, right, whether this is 548 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement, military, maybe an intelligence officer working for the CIA, 549 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: whatever it is. You have absolute certainty that there will 550 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,400 Speaker 1: be some form of attack, a terrorist attack probably, and 551 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: it's going to happen in the near to immediate future. 552 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: But you don't know exactly where, you don't know exactly when. 553 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: How do you find out? This is your the big quandary. 554 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,360 Speaker 1: How do you gain that information without, you know, stumbling 555 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,680 Speaker 1: upon a piece of paper that has it written out. 556 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: So let's take it a step further and say that 557 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,439 Speaker 1: maybe maybe we are those investigators, and we have one 558 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: or more suspects and custody, and with the same amount 559 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: of certitude, we know that they know where the attack 560 00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,760 Speaker 1: will be. Maybe we have it narrowed down to three cities, 561 00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: but they know which city and which day, and you 562 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:01,120 Speaker 1: we know that you know torture is banned, um, it 563 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: may still be one of the only ways to extract 564 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:07,040 Speaker 1: information this kind of information before hundreds of thousands of 565 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: innocent people die, or at least that's the justification, right. Yeah, 566 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,760 Speaker 1: And and this this is often depicted as the ultimate dilemma, 567 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 1: at least for modern times, regarding torture, and experts continue 568 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: to debate it today whether or not it's a good 569 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 1: idea to save all of these lives by torturing this person. 570 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: Can you even get information that would be reliable enough 571 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 1: to save people if you did indeed torture one of 572 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,080 Speaker 1: these suspects. There's there's a lot to unpack there, right, 573 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,560 Speaker 1: Like do you or do we in this scenario want 574 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: to be responsible for thousands of innocent people dying because 575 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,960 Speaker 1: we refuse to bend or break the law. Yeah, and 576 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: international law that's set forth by you know, the United Nations. 577 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: And look, it's just one of those things, like it's 578 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: a big moral quandary that seems to have probably the 579 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: most weight behind it in our modern times. So now 580 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: our question becomes if we want to be Machavelli and 581 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: if we want to cast morals aside. Now our question 582 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: shifts a little, and it's the the ultimate question here. 583 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: Does it work? As we alluded to earlier in the show, 584 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: does physically or psychologically torturing someone compel them to provide truthful, 585 00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:32,400 Speaker 1: useful information. The answer is no, Torture does not work, 586 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: at least in the way that the tormentors might publicly intend. Again, 587 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 1: that's publicly. So there's an article from Scientific American by 588 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: a guy named Michael Schermer, and it's called We've known 589 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: for four hundred years that torture doesn't work. In this article, 590 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:58,520 Speaker 1: there is a fascinating anecdote about the Duke of Brunswick 591 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,720 Speaker 1: in Germany during the time of the Inquisition. He goes 592 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: to visit the inquisitors and he wants to oversee their 593 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: use of torture to extract information from people accused of witchcraft, 594 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: right the majority of whom were women. So the Jesuits 595 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: told the Duke that the inquisitors are doing their duty. 596 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,440 Speaker 1: They're only arresting people who have been implicated in the 597 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: confessions of other witches when they were put to the 598 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,840 Speaker 1: question which was the term for torture. And so the 599 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: Duke's a little bit skeptical and he thinks, well, maybe 600 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,719 Speaker 1: people just say anything to get this to stop. So 601 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: he invited the Jesuits to come visit him. Uh and 602 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 1: go with him to a dungeon to witness a woman 603 00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: being stretched on the rack. Second degree of torture, like 604 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:48,319 Speaker 1: like we have mentioned earlier. And the Duke said to 605 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: this lady, while she's mid torture, by the way, he says, now, woman, 606 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: you are confessed, which I suspect these two men of 607 00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: being warlocks? What do you say? And he looks at 608 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: the ext cutioners and he says another turn of the 609 00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 1: rack executioners And the woman immediately said, no, no, no, 610 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: you are quite right. I have often seen them at 611 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 1: the sabbath. They can turn themselves into goats, wolves and 612 00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: other animals. Several witches have had children by them. One 613 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 1: woman even had eight children whom these men fathered. The 614 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: children had heads like toads and legs like spiders. And 615 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 1: the Duke turned to the Jesuits and said, should I 616 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: torture you until you confess? Jeez, you get real creative 617 00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,279 Speaker 1: when you're put to the question. And that's that's that's 618 00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,920 Speaker 1: how we know. Like the problem with tortures. If the 619 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,759 Speaker 1: primary goal is to receive truthful information again morals aside, 620 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: then we have to think of the primary goal of 621 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:49,480 Speaker 1: the victim, which is just to stop this immense, unending pain. Well, 622 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,759 Speaker 1: and also mentioned in that article is something that has 623 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: really shaped the way I've viewed torture over the years. 624 00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: Christopher Hitchens, a writer that I very much admired to 625 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: a certain extent um. Several years ago, while he was 626 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,640 Speaker 1: still living, he was worked, he was writing for Vanity 627 00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:10,279 Speaker 1: Fair still and he went and he was himself waterboarded. 628 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: And you know, he was famously hawkish about war, believing 629 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:18,880 Speaker 1: that there were there were good reasons to go to 630 00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: war and to eliminate terrorism and all. You know, you 631 00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:25,439 Speaker 1: can look at his views, but he didn't believe that 632 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,919 Speaker 1: waterboarding was that big of a deal. But he went. 633 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 1: It occurred to him, and his quote from the article was, 634 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,759 Speaker 1: if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no 635 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: such thing as torture. Because he had a terrible experience. 636 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: He almost immediately after being subjected to the water pouring 637 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,480 Speaker 1: on his head, he he said, no, that felt like 638 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: I was drowning. That is the worst thing that's ever 639 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:52,880 Speaker 1: happened to me. And I'm sure most listeners know what 640 00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:54,919 Speaker 1: waterboarding is, but I mean, just to set the scene, 641 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,399 Speaker 1: it's like you've got a rag over your face, there 642 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: is an you know, a torrent of water being poured 643 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:04,520 Speaker 1: over your mouth and nose to the point where it's 644 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:07,320 Speaker 1: it's it's constant enough that you just can't catch your breath, 645 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,680 Speaker 1: and I'm imagining that the rag is creating almost a 646 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,360 Speaker 1: suction against your face where you just like are totally 647 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,880 Speaker 1: incapable of drawing breath. And so I would argue that 648 00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: this is not only a physical torture, because we know 649 00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,439 Speaker 1: it's very unpleasant physically when you can't breathe, it's also 650 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: a psychological torture because it's the sensation that it's creating 651 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: of not being able to catch your breath and of dying, 652 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: of drowning, which sounds terrifying. Well, yeah, And the whole 653 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 1: point of this whole thing, though, is that Christopher Hitchins 654 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: was alluding to the fact that he would have said 655 00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: anything to make that stop, and he can't imagine, he 656 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: couldn't imagine experiencing that as someone like being told you 657 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: know where X is, you know what time it's going 658 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,240 Speaker 1: to happen, tell me where it is, and then proceeded 659 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 1: with the torture over and over over. It just seems 660 00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: so counterintuitive to me that that that people would think 661 00:42:58,960 --> 00:43:01,440 Speaker 1: that this is a part way to get people to 662 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,560 Speaker 1: tell them the truth. It just seems to me that 663 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: it's obvious that it would be the opposite. Yeah, it's 664 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:08,959 Speaker 1: a it's a smart way to get people to tell 665 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 1: you whatever you want them to say. But whether or 666 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: not it's true is is very, very different. And this 667 00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: ticking time bomb thought experiment, Let's be honest, it's way 668 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: too cut and dry in reality. If there's someone in captivity, 669 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,520 Speaker 1: they may or may not be responsible for this thing, right, 670 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: They may or may not have accurate information. Even if 671 00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,440 Speaker 1: they are responsible, maybe they're not on the inner circle 672 00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 1: for some specific operation. Then they might not know anything useful. 673 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 1: They might just make stuff up out of whole cloth, 674 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:45,120 Speaker 1: like the like the toad heads. As I'm saying, like 675 00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: that's like creative writing type stuff, like you know, you 676 00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: are going to dig deep into your imagination for you know, 677 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,279 Speaker 1: to make that rack tightening cease. Absolutely, and despite the 678 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: continued practices of what we could call gray area interrogation 679 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: and or torture, the U. S. Government itself publicly agrees 680 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: that torture is not really effective. There was a two 681 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 1: thousand fourteen report by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. 682 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: They analyzed millions of internal CIA documents related to the 683 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: torture of people's suspected of terrorism, and the Senate concluded 684 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: the CIA's use of its enhanced interrogation techniques was not 685 00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:31,840 Speaker 1: an effective means of acquiring intelligence or gaining cooperation from detainees. 686 00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:37,400 Speaker 1: It also adds that multiple CIA detainees fabricated information, resulting 687 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: in faulty intelligence, and that leads us to ask, if 688 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: torture doesn't work, what does Is there something better than torture? Well, yeah, 689 00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,520 Speaker 1: pretty much the opposite of torture. There there are multiple 690 00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: studies that show that this might be the thing, the 691 00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:58,800 Speaker 1: way to get information from people building rapport. It works wonders, 692 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: and it has a significant only higher chance of creating 693 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:08,040 Speaker 1: a successful relationship between interrogator and interrogator. Um by actually 694 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,879 Speaker 1: be like showing empathy and I understand your situation. I mean, 695 00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:15,200 Speaker 1: there's a whole host of lines you can go down, 696 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,520 Speaker 1: for sure. I guess the problem there is, though, if 697 00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 1: you have people that are trained, they're hardened to the 698 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,840 Speaker 1: point where they they're just not They're not going to 699 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: play nice with you at all, you know. I Mean, 700 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: it's one thing if you're like a scared kid or 701 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 1: like someone who's been accused of a crime, and you're 702 00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 1: just all, you know, you don't know which way is up. 703 00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: You could probably coerce someone into telling you some stuff 704 00:45:38,520 --> 00:45:40,840 Speaker 1: and getting them to cry and talk about their mommy 705 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:42,920 Speaker 1: or something like. I'm I'm being a jerk, but you 706 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,360 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying. But if someone is like a 707 00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,279 Speaker 1: trained a terrorist or an operative of some kind, I 708 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,400 Speaker 1: don't I don't think that's gonna work. I don't know. 709 00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:54,759 Speaker 1: You might find that there's I'm just saying there. You 710 00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,640 Speaker 1: might find that there is a vulnerable human inside each 711 00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,640 Speaker 1: and every one of us. It also depends on the 712 00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:05,240 Speaker 1: X axis of time. That's that's fair. So if someone 713 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: is detained for life with no human contact, isn't that torture? 714 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,319 Speaker 1: And except for you, it is. It is. But it's uh, 715 00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:18,000 Speaker 1: it's a chess level torture. And the the thing is 716 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: that it appears to it appears to work. There are 717 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: different studies that confirmed. There's one called the Who, What, 718 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,280 Speaker 1: and Why Human Intelligence Gathering from this journal Applied Cognitive Psychology. 719 00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:33,359 Speaker 1: They surveyed a hundred and fifty two interrogators and they 720 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: found that rapport and relationship building techniques were employed most 721 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,560 Speaker 1: often and perceived to be the most effective regardless of 722 00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: context and intended outcome. Particularly, they found in comparison to 723 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,960 Speaker 1: confrontational techniques, and that's from the interrogators themselves. Yeah, there's 724 00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:54,520 Speaker 1: another study called Interviewing High Value Detainees. It sampled the 725 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:57,720 Speaker 1: sixty four practitioners and detainees, and it found that quote 726 00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:02,279 Speaker 1: detainees were more likely to disclose meaningful information and earlier 727 00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:06,080 Speaker 1: in the interview when report building techniques were used. So 728 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,800 Speaker 1: those are two examples of studies that find this approach 729 00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:17,279 Speaker 1: superior to confrontational or abusive behavior. Although I do appreciate 730 00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:23,160 Speaker 1: the point of rapport building and solitary confinement being just 731 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: another form of torture, are arguably with these stories we 732 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,720 Speaker 1: hear from various global conflicts in the study of torture. 733 00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:35,320 Speaker 1: They indicate the same conclusions, not just from academics and historians, 734 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,839 Speaker 1: but from the firsthand accounts of other interrogators. And so 735 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,040 Speaker 1: we have to ask ourselves if torture does not work 736 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,279 Speaker 1: at least in terms of providing truthful information or eliciting it, 737 00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,520 Speaker 1: if it only blinds someone to the point that they 738 00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,200 Speaker 1: will say something anything to prevent further abuse. Then why 739 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,440 Speaker 1: do we as a species persist. There are several reasons, 740 00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,839 Speaker 1: and absolutely none of them are appealing. First, in some 741 00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:05,880 Speaker 1: belief systems, certain methods of punishment may be prescribed for 742 00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:08,920 Speaker 1: certain types of transgressions. This is where you hear about 743 00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,920 Speaker 1: traditional methods of punishment, right, or execution for the violation 744 00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,160 Speaker 1: of socio spiritual morays. That's just that's a word. I 745 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:25,000 Speaker 1: made up word socio spiritual. Uh. And then there's the 746 00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:29,279 Speaker 1: other one. Second, torture is also used successfully to some 747 00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 1: degree to send a message. And this goes to an anecdote. 748 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:40,400 Speaker 1: And I know there's a touchy geopolitical situation with Russia 749 00:48:40,560 --> 00:48:43,840 Speaker 1: right now, but there's a short there's a short story 750 00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,439 Speaker 1: or an account of what happened in the Soviet Union 751 00:48:46,480 --> 00:48:51,640 Speaker 1: at the time. Had four Soviet diplomats kidnapped in did 752 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 1: you all hear about this? So in these four Soviet 753 00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,440 Speaker 1: diplomats were kidnapped by a fundamentalist group called the Islamic 754 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,959 Speaker 1: Liberation Organization. They dispatched Russia dispatched something called it's Alpha group. 755 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,880 Speaker 1: They were tasked with counter terrorism, hostage rescue situations. They 756 00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:19,520 Speaker 1: learned that one of the hostages had been killed, a 757 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:24,000 Speaker 1: guy named Arkady Katkov. And so what they did is 758 00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:28,200 Speaker 1: they tracked down and located one of the leaders of 759 00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,560 Speaker 1: the kidnappers are possibly a relative, and they wanted to 760 00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:39,880 Speaker 1: send a message to the terrorists. They tortured this person 761 00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,080 Speaker 1: that they captured with absolutely no intention of gaining information, 762 00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: absolutely no intention of letting them survive. Alpha group castrated 763 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:52,480 Speaker 1: the hostage, cut him into pieces, and sent pieces of 764 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,359 Speaker 1: him to the hostage takers. And they also said, we 765 00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,279 Speaker 1: know who your other relatives are, and we know where 766 00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: they live, and we know the routines. The three hostages 767 00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,960 Speaker 1: were released and dropped off near the Soviet embassy and 768 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: there were no other There haven't been Russian officials taken 769 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:15,360 Speaker 1: captive since then. Uh. And then people argue back and forth, 770 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,320 Speaker 1: this this scary story, but what it what it shows 771 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 1: is that their goal in torture then was not to 772 00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:26,400 Speaker 1: learn anything new. Their goal was to send a signal, 773 00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,880 Speaker 1: just like in the early days of civilization where someone said, 774 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:36,759 Speaker 1: let us make an example discussing repugnant example. Yeah, rather 775 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:41,520 Speaker 1: than fleeing some prisoners and putting them on spikes throughout 776 00:50:41,600 --> 00:50:45,080 Speaker 1: your whole kingdom, you just cut one person up to 777 00:50:45,360 --> 00:50:50,080 Speaker 1: take this one group out, and you could argue again 778 00:50:50,120 --> 00:50:53,120 Speaker 1: morals aside that that was a short term solution, that 779 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,200 Speaker 1: the signaling did result in the release of those other hostages. 780 00:50:56,719 --> 00:51:01,759 Speaker 1: But over the long term is that a solution, I 781 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,520 Speaker 1: don't know. But for now, the practice of torture continues. 782 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: We had talked before about several like we mentioned several 783 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,400 Speaker 1: forms of torture that seemed arcane but are still around, right, 784 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:19,640 Speaker 1: Like um nol you mentioned when we were talking about 785 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:23,239 Speaker 1: UH foot whipping. You have told me before that that's 786 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:26,000 Speaker 1: not an ancient practice, right right, Well, I mean, and 787 00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,480 Speaker 1: maybe the origins of it are, But I know there 788 00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,000 Speaker 1: was an incident with UM. I believe it was kus 789 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 1: Hussein who participated in whipping the feet of UM. I 790 00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:40,839 Speaker 1: believe it was an Iraqi soccer team. You know about this, 791 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,160 Speaker 1: the whole team, I think so. Yeah. Apparently Ude Hussein 792 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,400 Speaker 1: was a pretty sore loser when the group of Iraqi 793 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: soccer stars UM did not win the Asian Cup UM 794 00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,239 Speaker 1: and he had them tortured by having the soles of 795 00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: their feet whipped after losing in the World Cup qualifying match. UM. 796 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's definitely something that's still around and that's 797 00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:09,920 Speaker 1: technically that's going to be state sponsored then, because he 798 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:15,480 Speaker 1: was a husaying yeah, wow, well boys, I feel awful. 799 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,880 Speaker 1: Well there's a silver lining, right what I don't know. 800 00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:23,319 Speaker 1: We were just talking off air about you know, the 801 00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: future of torture. Maybe there's a kind of torture that 802 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,520 Speaker 1: doesn't really hurt you physically. Oh okay, some sort of 803 00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:33,960 Speaker 1: virtual torture. Yeah. Yeah, you guys seeing Altered Carbon the 804 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,960 Speaker 1: Netflix show, I think it's a lot of fun. Uh, 805 00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:42,120 Speaker 1: it's got problems. But there's a particular scenario where there's 806 00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:45,040 Speaker 1: this like shop or it's like a medical facility where 807 00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:49,640 Speaker 1: a somebody who wants to extract information can pay these 808 00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 1: texts to put somebody under You kind of have to 809 00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:56,000 Speaker 1: abduct them first, that shoot him up in the neck 810 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,160 Speaker 1: with some kind of you know, sleepy meds, and then um, 811 00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,000 Speaker 1: you put them on this table and put all these 812 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:03,319 Speaker 1: electrodes attached to their brain and they end up in 813 00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:06,719 Speaker 1: a virtual room where somebody can go in there and 814 00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: read all kinds of virtual havoc on them and apparently 815 00:53:10,680 --> 00:53:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's like a a readout of the way 816 00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:16,640 Speaker 1: their body is reacting. Um, and while it's all psychological, 817 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:22,480 Speaker 1: they apparently feel it in the virtual world, right, Yeah, 818 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:27,720 Speaker 1: it's it's a terrifying extrapolation of both virtual reality and torture, certainly, 819 00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:32,919 Speaker 1: And I can imagine a world, this world where there 820 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: is some type of interface that makes it it blurs 821 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:41,960 Speaker 1: the line between real and virtual, like the the a 822 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: are stuff that we are seeing right now, um augmented 823 00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:48,880 Speaker 1: reality and virtual reality. I can totally imagine that occurring. 824 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:53,239 Speaker 1: I wonder how effective it would be the same thing, Man, 825 00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:55,520 Speaker 1: do you do you not still think the ethical quandaries 826 00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:59,239 Speaker 1: still apply and also the efficacy. Yeah, absolutely they would 827 00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: still apply, at least in the psychological sense, because the 828 00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:07,040 Speaker 1: unless the person's mind was also a race, they were 829 00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 1: their experience was also erased. They would still remember this 830 00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:15,960 Speaker 1: and bear the psychological burden of what occurred, sort of 831 00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 1: like you can wake up from a nightmare, but you 832 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,880 Speaker 1: still remember it and you're still going to affect your behavior. 833 00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: So perhaps it's still better than the alternative of shredding 834 00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:36,480 Speaker 1: people's tongues or flame them. But it's a difference of degree. 835 00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:39,480 Speaker 1: What might say, Man, I watched the video on the 836 00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 1: Brazen Bull to get ready for this, and I I 837 00:54:43,640 --> 00:54:45,839 Speaker 1: almost didn't even want to bring it up. But the 838 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,040 Speaker 1: thing when they put him inside of a thing, it's 839 00:54:48,040 --> 00:54:52,319 Speaker 1: a statue made out of bronze, or at least theoretically 840 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,000 Speaker 1: there is. There has not one been found when they 841 00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,240 Speaker 1: are actually seen a full brazen bull. Just read accounts 842 00:54:58,239 --> 00:55:00,560 Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, but it was a statue of a 843 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,279 Speaker 1: bowl that it was large enough for a human to 844 00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:05,360 Speaker 1: fit inside, and they would put a fire on the 845 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:07,759 Speaker 1: bottom of it, and the entire thing would heat up 846 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:10,040 Speaker 1: because of the substances made of all of the metal 847 00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,960 Speaker 1: quickly heats up to the same temperature the person inside 848 00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,960 Speaker 1: is pretty much cooked. And it was. Oh, there was 849 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,239 Speaker 1: also this whole thing where their stories or at least 850 00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:26,120 Speaker 1: accounts of the bull makes an actual bull sound when 851 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: the person is being cooked, and it's based on the 852 00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,800 Speaker 1: idea of a The single air hole that goes into 853 00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:37,160 Speaker 1: the bowl is actually from the mouth of this brazen 854 00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:40,520 Speaker 1: bull statue. And the only way to get oxygen as 855 00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:43,360 Speaker 1: as smoke is filling up the bull and you're in 856 00:55:43,400 --> 00:55:47,440 Speaker 1: there being cooked and dying is to breathe through that hole, 857 00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,200 Speaker 1: and it makes like a cow sound when you're breathing 858 00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:54,600 Speaker 1: through it. It was the most horrifying thing. I mean, 859 00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:57,359 Speaker 1: there are gross terrible things of cutting up in all this, 860 00:55:57,760 --> 00:56:03,160 Speaker 1: but the concept of being walked into an oven in 861 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,120 Speaker 1: that way while you can hear whoever is in charge 862 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,480 Speaker 1: like laughing, because its supposedly done as like a form 863 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,600 Speaker 1: of entertainment, not only punishment, but entertainment. When that goes 864 00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,600 Speaker 1: into and we're talking about some of these older civilizations 865 00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:25,799 Speaker 1: where the torture was kind of entertainment, like even you know, 866 00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,360 Speaker 1: being a gladiator for example, that was a punishment, that 867 00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,120 Speaker 1: was a form of torture. I mean, you had a 868 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,359 Speaker 1: fighting chance, I guess, But it was also done for 869 00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:36,319 Speaker 1: you know, the amusement of the government, and then they 870 00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,120 Speaker 1: keep the people happy with the bread and circuses and 871 00:56:39,160 --> 00:56:43,240 Speaker 1: all that stuff. And religion was also functioning as government 872 00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:45,759 Speaker 1: to for much of the time. So if it was 873 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,600 Speaker 1: a religious practice, if we must, you know, rip the 874 00:56:49,719 --> 00:56:53,239 Speaker 1: hearts out of the living so that the sun continues 875 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,080 Speaker 1: to rise or that the eclipse ends, then it's still 876 00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,440 Speaker 1: still a state spot start action. And this brings us 877 00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:06,840 Speaker 1: to questions for you, folks. Do you believe that torture 878 00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:14,360 Speaker 1: does produce results? Do you believe that the ends justify 879 00:57:14,680 --> 00:57:22,000 Speaker 1: the maccab means? And if so or if not, why 880 00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:26,280 Speaker 1: we would like to hear from you. We also this 881 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,760 Speaker 1: is the part of the show where Matt, Noel and 882 00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 1: I let you know that we are on the internet. 883 00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 1: That's all true. We're on Instagram, where on Facebook, join 884 00:57:36,360 --> 00:57:39,320 Speaker 1: our discussion page. Here's where it gets crazy, where you 885 00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:42,800 Speaker 1: can find us interacting from time to time. You can 886 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:45,000 Speaker 1: also find us on Twitter. But we're not just on 887 00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,680 Speaker 1: the internet anymore, folks. The rumors are true. We've branched 888 00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:53,120 Speaker 1: out to another platform, the good old telephone. Yes, we 889 00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:56,240 Speaker 1: now have a toll free number that you can call 890 00:57:56,480 --> 00:58:01,080 Speaker 1: and leave us a voice message and boiler alert. We 891 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,800 Speaker 1: might make a couple episodes where we feature you on 892 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,439 Speaker 1: the show. Okay, it's gonna happen, but we just need 893 00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:11,840 Speaker 1: you to leave the messages. So here it is. Write 894 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:13,480 Speaker 1: this down, put it in your phone, do what you 895 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 1: gotta do. Eight three three st d w y t K. 896 00:58:19,240 --> 00:58:23,000 Speaker 1: Let's do that again with numbers eight three three seven, 897 00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:27,040 Speaker 1: eight three nine eight five. If you call that number 898 00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: right now, you will hear Ben's voice and then leave 899 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,920 Speaker 1: a message. That's all. It's super simple. Hey, and if 900 00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:36,200 Speaker 1: you you know, have some sort of phone aversion you 901 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,120 Speaker 1: don't like touching plastic buttons. Um, I guess I could 902 00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:42,000 Speaker 1: apply to a keyboard, dude, it doesn't matter if it's 903 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:44,240 Speaker 1: a specific phone a version. You can reach us on 904 00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: the Internet, like Ben said, we are there at conspiracy 905 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:52,800 Speaker 1: Stuff show on Instagram and just conspiracy stuff on Twitter 906 00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:55,640 Speaker 1: and Facebook. Uh. And if you don't want to do 907 00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:00,520 Speaker 1: any of that stuff, phone Internet facts our facts. But 908 00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,760 Speaker 1: we should, we should, that should be our next antiquated 909 00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,280 Speaker 1: communication means that we come up with that would actually 910 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: be amazing. We had a fact machine that just sat next. 911 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, okid, yeah, it makes a cool sound, that's 912 00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:14,520 Speaker 1: for sure. Alright, that's next. Yeah, that's next. So before 913 00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,920 Speaker 1: you know, in the meantime, you could send us a 914 00:59:16,920 --> 00:59:20,520 Speaker 1: good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at how stuff 915 00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:41,160 Speaker 1: works dot com.