1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan, Rexburg, Idaho. It's one 2 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: of those places I've never actually been to Idaho. I 3 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: have been on the western bank of the Snake River 4 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 1: in Oregon and have looked over into Idaho, and it's beautiful, beautiful, 5 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,839 Speaker 1: very appealing to the eye. And the environment is incredibly 6 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: varied there. You know, you got the rockies that run 7 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: through there, you got these you know, kind of high 8 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: desert plains and all these sorts of things. But never 9 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: in my imagination did the first off, did I think 10 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,480 Speaker 1: that I would talk about the state of Idaho as 11 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: much as I have, I guess over the past four years, 12 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: five years, however, long to spend. I want to focus 13 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:05,720 Speaker 1: on Rexpert today and one of the citizens of Expert, 14 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: a female citizen. She has been documented in the news 15 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: now for load of these many years, perhaps one of 16 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:22,240 Speaker 1: the biggest mysteries surrounding this bizarre, murderous environment that was 17 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 1: inhabited by Chad Daybell and Lorie Valodabell. Today we're going 18 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: to discuss finally the findings of the autopsy of Tammy Dabell. 19 00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body Bags Dave 20 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: mac been waiting for info. You know that there's that 21 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: part of me that wants to know, But there's that 22 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: old investigator within me that knows why I should not know. 23 00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying, Because it's not about how 24 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: much stuff can be flooded out into the media, how 25 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:08,079 Speaker 1: much data, how much information. It's about a trial that 26 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:12,080 Speaker 1: is going to determine whether or not you're going to 27 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: have individuals held responsible for murder. 28 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:19,519 Speaker 2: There are shocking parts of this case every day, meaning 29 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 2: because we've dealt with so many other aspects of the 30 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: relationship between Lori Valo and Chad day Bell. And when 31 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: you look at those two, if you put them at 32 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: the top of the pyramid change, you know you're going 33 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: to find a lot of death and destruction of people 34 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: and families, all because of Chad day Bell and his 35 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: first real big follower, Lori Valo. We could deal with 36 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: that later on. Today we're talking about Tammy Dave Bell. 37 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 2: Tammy was forty nine years old. She and Chad day 38 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 2: Bell married in March of nineteen ninety. They had twenty 39 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 2: eight years together, five children together, just wonderful little family. 40 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 2: I don't know if you're aware of this but Tammy 41 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:08,079 Speaker 2: day Bell was somebody that she was very respected. Co 42 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: workers said she was a computer whiz. Meanwhile, Chad day 43 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,639 Speaker 2: Bell was really he didn't have much of a professional career. Really. 44 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: The only thing Chad had with the books that he 45 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 2: wrote that took Mormonism and really went down the wrong 46 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: rabbit hole and twisted and turned and whatever. But it 47 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: was Tammy day Bell that actually was the one person 48 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 2: that that family could count on. 49 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: The rock in that family. And I'm glad you mentioned 50 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: this because she was a rock in the community as well. 51 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: You remember when you were in well elementary school, middle school, 52 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 1: junior high I think when we were kids that still 53 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: call it junior high and high school. There was some 54 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: media specialists, the librarian and everyone. It didn't matter what 55 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: grades you were in, you're going to pass through the 56 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: library at some point. Tom, that's that person. That's what 57 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: Tammy did for a living. So any group of people 58 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 1: that passed through the schools there in Rexburg got hod. 59 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 1: They knew Tammy. They knew her from church and whatnot 60 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: and everything else that she was engaged with. And these 61 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: these children that her and Chad had produced together, these 62 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: were adult children now and they were in her life 63 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 1: and children for a family, they're like little ships that 64 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: are set of saale left. You bring them to bring 65 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:19,720 Speaker 1: them to adulthood. You know, they go forth and you 66 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: know they're carrying your name with them. Good behavior or 67 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,960 Speaker 1: bad behavior, they're known, and certainly she was known as. 68 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 2: Well, and it was a good known, you know, regardless 69 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 2: of what people thought of Chad, Tammy day Bell was 70 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 2: looked upon with a respect and a dignity that really 71 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: and truly did not fit her demise. To really make 72 00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 2: this short, because I know we've covered so many things 73 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 2: associated with this story. Kind of catching up a little bit. 74 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 2: Tammy and Chad have been married for twenty eight years, 75 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: they had the five children. When it came down to 76 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 2: October of twenty nineteen, there was a lot happening with 77 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,080 Speaker 2: Chad day Bell kind of being the puppet master. And 78 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: that's why we're dealing with at forty nine years old, 79 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 2: a seemingly healthy woman died in her sleep. Suppose that's 80 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,799 Speaker 2: what we're told. This is the nuts and bolts. Okay, 81 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 2: we have Lori Vallo on Lori Valo day Bell on 82 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 2: trial right now for the murder of her own children, 83 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: and then an accessory with Tammy Day Bell's passing. Most 84 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: of us were totally shocked to find out two weeks 85 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: after Tammy Day Bell passes away, Chad day Bell marries 86 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 2: Lori Vallo on the beach in Hawaii. Two weeks. That's it, 87 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: twenty eight years. 88 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:35,160 Speaker 1: How do you do that? 89 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 2: You couldn't wait twenty eight days, no matter of fact, Joe, 90 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: you know what. It came out in court that he 91 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:47,159 Speaker 2: Chad introduced Lori Vallo as his future wife a week 92 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,840 Speaker 2: after Tammy Day Bell was dead. Okay, at first there 93 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: was no autopsy. How does a forty nine year old 94 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 2: woman just die in her sleep? Chad let it be 95 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: known that she had been suffering through a number of 96 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 2: medical issues. Friends said that she wasn't she was trending 97 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 2: for a marathon. So we have these two differences of opinion. 98 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 2: Chad and Tammy's children claim they were the reason there 99 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 2: was no autopsy done on their mother. I find that 100 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: hard to believe, but that's what they said on CBS News. 101 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,440 Speaker 2: They said, no, it was not our dad. We were 102 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: the ones that didn't want an autopsy. I kind of 103 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 2: have a feeling that Chad told them we don't want 104 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: an autopsy. 105 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,240 Speaker 1: For those that aren't familiar in the medical legal environment. 106 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: The children do not make that decision. That decision is 107 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: actually made by the living spouse. That's how this works. 108 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: He is the one that would have made that final 109 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: determination as to whether or not her remains would have 110 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: been examined by a medical examiner a forensic pathologist, and 111 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: of course they weren't. That decision alone is one thing. 112 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:58,160 Speaker 1: But the other piece to this is that we've got 113 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: essentially a corner that was not in attendance physically at 114 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,799 Speaker 1: the scene of the death. There's any number of ways 115 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,280 Speaker 1: we could look at that. You begin to think about, well, 116 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: what leads you to the conclusion that this is okay 117 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: to release this body from the scene directly to a 118 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: funeral home without seeing the body in its context? And 119 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: I've talked about this in a previous episode about the 120 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: Dabel family and specifically about Tammy. You get one shot 121 00:07:24,520 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: at seeing her in the context of that environment in 122 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: which she in dwelt and which she passed away. Because 123 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: the body is going to give you certain information, but 124 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: the environment always gives you certain information as well. And 125 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: when you take it, take the body and the scene 126 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: out of context, you can go down any number of 127 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: and any number of routes with this, and you're never 128 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: going to come to a sufficient conclusion. It's certainly not 129 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: as satisfying as you would if you went physically to 130 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: the scene an observed Tammy's body in place, maybe even 131 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,520 Speaker 1: have drawn toxicology. If you're in you do this. We 132 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: do this externally, where we draw blood externally, we draw 133 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: urine externally and at least have that. But that that 134 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: wasn't done, David. And of course that's water in the bridge. 135 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: I got to ask you this, though, a forty nine 136 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 2: year old woman dies and she's not under it. She's 137 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:17,920 Speaker 2: not being treated by a doctor for any kind of condition. 138 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 2: You know, it's not like she had a weekly appointment 139 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: with a doctor that was managing her care. So it 140 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 2: just strains other than somebody saying it's either a religious 141 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 2: issue or something along those lanes. We can't. We don't 142 00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: need to do an autopsy. She just died, she was 143 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,959 Speaker 2: already sick. We knew it. Who do you believe that now? Granted, 144 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 2: when Tammy Dave Bell died, they didn't know. Police did 145 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: not know that Chad day Bell was involved with Lorii 146 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 2: Valo in any way, shape or form, They didn't know 147 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: at the time that Louri Valo had two children that 148 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 2: were missing. They didn't know that Lori Valo's husband died 149 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: under weird circumstances the previous summer in July. So all 150 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 2: of these things that we know now they did not 151 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 2: know in re in, Idaho at that time. But I'm 152 00:09:01,280 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: really curious, and you mentioned the coroner not being there. 153 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: We've got a forty nine year old woman dies in Rexburg, Idaho. 154 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:12,920 Speaker 2: They bury her across state lines in her home in Utah. Right. 155 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: I guess my confusion here is how is it not 156 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 2: deemed a suspicious death? We got to find out more 157 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: when a forty nine year old, seeming a healthy woman dies, 158 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 2: and who actually makes that call? 159 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: Joe, By law, it's a corner. Corner is going to 160 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: trump anything any wishes that the family have. Okay, just 161 00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: let that be known. If the corner says that there 162 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 1: shall be an examination, there shall be an examination by law. 163 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: Now they'll take the family's thoughts into consideration. But this 164 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: is precisely why corners are supposed to go to scenes. 165 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: This is precisely why bodies are supposed to be examined 166 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: at the scene. Hopefully more thoroughly, because once that moment 167 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: has gone you know the old legal adage about you 168 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,679 Speaker 1: can't unring the bell. Once that tone has gone forward, 169 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: you cannot recapture it. And it really handicapped this case 170 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 1: because you're searching for answers, you're trying to explain, as 171 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: you stated, this young woman, and she is a young woman, 172 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 1: she's forty nine years old, the picture of health. Apparently 173 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: you do not rely specifically on what the husband actually relates. 174 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,440 Speaker 1: Because here, here's the thing. If she doesn't have an 175 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: attending physician, Okay, she doesn't have an attending physician, she 176 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: doesn't have a pre existing condition, she doesn't have some 177 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: kind of underlying disease, who's going to sign the death certificate? Well, 178 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: the corner has to sign the death certificate. And if 179 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: the corner's going to sign the death certificate, what are 180 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: you going to list as a cause of death if 181 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: you don't know, or are you just gonna make it up 182 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: or are you just gonna make a guess? Because in 183 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: Tammy Davelle's case, what was concluded at the scene that 184 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: turned out not to be true, that her death was 185 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: actually related to already I commend there's a term that 186 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 1: you hear a lot in the military. That's part of 187 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: our vernacular now, I think because of all the military 188 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: movies that are out there, particularly in recent history, and 189 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: its eyes on. I wonder what that means for most 190 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: of us. Eyes on is that you have a presence 191 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 1: in a location where you can visualize something. Some people 192 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 1: refer to this as visualization. I've actually heard this term 193 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: called actualization, which I've never really understood, but I do 194 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: know this. When it comes to the death of Tammy Davell, 195 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: and you've got this relatively young woman who by most 196 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: estimates the picture of health, it's important to have eyes on, 197 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: and I think that you need a corner that's there 198 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:12,240 Speaker 1: that can observe the environment, observe the people in her environment, 199 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: and most importantly, can observe her. 200 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: We think about that, dave following along with criminal cases 201 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: dealing with death. I have learned so much listening to you, 202 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: as have many of us. Okay, because there are certain 203 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: things we just don't know. And I'm going to ask 204 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: you this because and I hope it's not a stupid question, 205 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 2: but you have in this particular case, everybody thought she 206 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 2: was in good health, seemed to be in good health 207 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 2: and she dies in her sleep. Her husband describes her coughing, 208 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: and he describes her as being a little sick prior 209 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: to death. But she was under no treatment of any 210 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 2: doctor and she dies. Now you have the paramedics. They 211 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 2: call nine one. When paramedics come out and they declare 212 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,440 Speaker 2: her debt. I guess, and I know it's different in 213 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 2: every state. Who actually makes that declaration. If you have 214 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 2: somebody who dies at home, is the corner called to 215 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 2: the scene right away to come and see the entire 216 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: situation as it's laid out, even if it doesn't look 217 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: like anything criminal has taken place. 218 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: First off, In a case like this, everything is up 219 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: for questioning. I encourage anybody when you're dealing with something 220 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:24,720 Speaker 1: that's discomplicated, you have to have answers. They have to 221 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 1: be scientifically sound. The responses that you receive, and with 222 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 1: any kind of scientific pursuit, inquiry into these events, particularly 223 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: as it applies to death, is key. An inquiry means 224 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: you're going to have to be present in that moment 225 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: and to observe you have to have demonstrative evidence. The 226 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: one baseline where in most cases, not every, but in 227 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: most cases, where a death is not necessarily reportable to 228 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: the corner. That's where you have an individual that is 229 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: in a terminal phase where they've been diagnosed, and most 230 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 1: of the time that's going to throw them into the 231 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: category of hospice care. I think many of our listeners 232 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: are familiar with hospice, and unfortunately, some are incredibly familiar 233 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,640 Speaker 1: with it because they've had to endure a death of 234 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: a loved one. Many times those deaths are not reportable. 235 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: The only person that's actually contacted in a case like 236 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: that is going to be a hospice nurse. Well, I 237 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 1: think that you and I Dave, can agree that Tammy 238 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: day Belt didn't fit into this status. 239 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 2: I compare her to at forty nine, and compare that 240 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 2: to my father in law who died at seventy three. 241 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: He was under hospice care for the weeks leading up 242 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 2: to his passing, and we all gathered around as he 243 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 2: got worse and said our goodbyes, and when he passed, 244 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 2: everybody was on hand. We knew it was coming. Tammy 245 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 2: Dabell went to bed the night before. She's forty nine 246 00:14:54,160 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: years old and she dies, And that's why I'm saying 247 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: this is not normal. I would expect somebody's going to 248 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 2: be called. But here's the quack. And this is what 249 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: I wanted to pitch Joe is at the time Tammy 250 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: day Bell died, nobody in the law enforcement community was 251 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: aware that there was something going on between the valor 252 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 2: children being missing because at that time they weren't even 253 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 2: listed as missing. Nobody was looking for them. At that time. 254 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: When Tammy died, they didn't tie together that Chad Dabell 255 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 2: might be in a relationship with somebody other than his wife. 256 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: Nobody knew that. They looked at this as a forty 257 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:34,120 Speaker 2: nine year old woman died in her bed, her husband 258 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: by her side, kind of thing. So in that moment, 259 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 2: even though it seems innocent, I have to challenge somebody 260 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 2: being able to walk away from a forty nine year old, 261 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: seemingly healthy woman and just say, oh, it's natural causes. 262 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 2: That's not natural at forty nine these days. Maybe back 263 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 2: when people died at fifty it would be, but not now. 264 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: Not now. We're talking about life expectancy now has kind 265 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: of gone past the marker of eighty. I think in 266 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: many circumstances, and I love what you said just a 267 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: second ago, O Dave, about this. You don't know what's 268 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 1: going on. I'm from Many people know I'm from New Orleans, 269 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 1: and so I've written out multiple hurricanes. One of the 270 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 1: things about being in the middle of the hurricane, one 271 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,000 Speaker 1: of the eeriest things is being in the eye when 272 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: the eye passes directly over and anybody that's never been 273 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 1: in that environment, if you were to be plopped down 274 00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: in the eye of a hurricane on the ground, you 275 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: wouldn't know that you were in the middle of a storm, 276 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: a massive storm. It's all out on the periphery and 277 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: it's swirling, but you can't really see it, and that's 278 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: kind of that's maybe a poor illustration, but that's kind 279 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: of what we were faced with. I think that many 280 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: people that are associated with this case, they didn't know 281 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: that JJ and Tyley were gone. 282 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 2: Actually, I think that's a perfect illustration because think about it. 283 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: Imagine back in the day when you couldn't see like this. So, yeah, 284 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 2: there was a hurricane going all around that nobody knew about. 285 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: Nobody knew. It's very easy, chief amongst them here speaking, 286 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:05,360 Speaker 1: to sit in judgment of somebody, you know, looking back retrospectively. 287 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: But there's just certain things that you're going to look for. 288 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: You got a forty nine year old dead. I've got questions, 289 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: and by God, I want answers. So that's why it's 290 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: important that the corner did in fact show up. Got 291 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: nine to one one, We've got a deputy responding, We've 292 00:17:20,960 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: got ems responding. You would think that you would want 293 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: ems for a forty nine year old. This is not 294 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: a terminally old person. You're thinking there's a chance that 295 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: they're going to try to do everything. But when they arrived, 296 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,120 Speaker 1: they noted that there were no signs of life. And 297 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,080 Speaker 1: it's at that point, you know you talked about the 298 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: corner coming out. That's when that switch is flipped. When 299 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 1: they're looking there and they're trained, you know, to examine 300 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: a body. Their patients obviously are alive, they're going to 301 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: try to transport them in. They knew that all hope 302 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: was gone at this point in time. God called corner. 303 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:56,119 Speaker 1: So the corner shows up, and it came out in 304 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: trial and testimony not only the corner showed up, but 305 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: also the deputy corner. Deputy corner preceded the actual arrival 306 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: of the corner, So you had two medical legal authorities 307 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 1: that showed up at the scene. They observed this frothy, pink, 308 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: ademitous cone that there was a lot of vague information 309 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,439 Speaker 1: about it. First. You know, one of the kids, i 310 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: think in one of the television interviews, had said, yeah, yeah, 311 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: we saw that this was present on our mother's face. 312 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: The children, i think had stated that they're the ones 313 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: that insisted in an autopsy not be performed. Look, the 314 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: person that makes that decision, first off, is the corner. 315 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:35,120 Speaker 1: It's not the family. The family can protest, they can 316 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,640 Speaker 1: say no, we don't want an autopsy, and they can 317 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,479 Speaker 1: scream from the rooftops. But if the corner deems it 318 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: necessary that it serves a greater good for us to 319 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: have the answers. Yeah, I mean, the corner might listen 320 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: to the family and say, yeah, we'll go along, We'll 321 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,400 Speaker 1: abide by your wishes. When you're a medical legal authority 322 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 1: and you're standing over the body of a woman that 323 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: has suddenly died, there's no indication that she's got a 324 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 1: heart history or some kind of cardiac event. Now it 325 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 1: appears that she's probably in congested failure because she's got 326 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: this pink, frothy cone coming out of her mouth, which 327 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: is something that we associated with a congested failure. You'll 328 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:15,240 Speaker 1: see it with od's as well. You see it in drownings. 329 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, you also see it with a 330 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: six year old death. Dave. That's the problem here because 331 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: you know, as we come to find out later, when 332 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: her body was eventually removed from the grave down in Utah, 333 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: they found things that would indicate that this was something 334 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: other than a natural death. So it's at that moment 335 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: time that the corner makes a critical determination. They decide 336 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: to rest solely on the information that's being provided to 337 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: them by a one Chad day Bell. He's telling the 338 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 1: corner that, yeh, she's had I think he termed it 339 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,679 Speaker 1: as convulsions. I don't know what you mean by convulsions 340 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: when you say convulsions, because if you tell me that 341 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: as a that's investigator, I'm going to say, well, I 342 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: need you, I need you to put a finer point 343 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,399 Speaker 1: on that for me. You're saying, she has had convulsions. Okay, 344 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:08,960 Speaker 1: give me the dates and times. Where were you when 345 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: this was going on? Had she just ingested anything when 346 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: this happened? Is there a history of family having quote 347 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: unquote convulsions? To any of the kids have convulsions? Is 348 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: this something that you've witnessed And were there any other 349 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: witnesses to these convulsions? Hey, when she had these convulsions, 350 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: did she ever fall to the floor and bite her tongue? 351 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: Did she thrash all about and you know, get hurt 352 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: as a result of bumping into things. I want to 353 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: know more about these so called convulsions because if you 354 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: got convulsions, that means that there's some kind of root 355 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: there from a medical perspective, a disease perspective, that's causing that. 356 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: And I would think that if she's having convulsions and 357 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,679 Speaker 1: I'm sitting there and I'm telling the corner this, and 358 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 1: I'm looking at my kids, well, how do I know 359 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 1: that there's not some kind of genetic predisposition. You've got 360 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: a forty nine year old wife. I'm staring at my 361 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: kids that are there in the room, and I'm thinking, well, 362 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,199 Speaker 1: if this is a problem, these quote unquote convulsions, how 363 00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: do I know that my kids aren't gonna have this? 364 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 2: But you know, Joe, on top of that, the convulsions, Okay, 365 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:16,000 Speaker 2: if my wife was suffering from something, as he indicates convulsions, 366 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 2: something more than an extended cough, that was recognizable that 367 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: I would put a tag to it like that. We 368 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 2: would have doctors records because I would have taken her 369 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: to the doctor. This is not normal. This is beyond. 370 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,439 Speaker 2: I've got a nagging cough. I've got something here that 371 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 2: I'm labeling convulsions. 372 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: Doc. 373 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 2: We got to figure this out. But the other part 374 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 2: of all this, Joe, is that the children are not 375 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 2: children at home. These are adult children now who they 376 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: basically get their information about their mother's health from their father, 377 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 2: Chad day Bell. So Chad day Bell is the person 378 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: telling the kids, telling the authorities on the scene. Everybody 379 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,120 Speaker 2: gets their information, and whether it's said by a child 380 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: or not, all of the information is coming from Chad 381 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 2: day Bell about the health of his wife, who now 382 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 2: I suddenly has been having convulsions. 383 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,399 Speaker 1: He's the proverbial rudder on the ship, is it a 384 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: He's a wellspring, the font if you will, from what 385 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,640 Speaker 1: the knowledge that comes forth relative to her. And here's 386 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 1: the thing, I'm curious as to how thorough the examination 387 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: of her body was at the scene. There's going to 388 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,679 Speaker 1: be evidence here on her body that's going to be 389 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: revealed as a result of this exhumation. What did you 390 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: see in real time. If you're the corner and look, 391 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: I'm all fine and good. If you maybe you decided, okay, 392 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to lean not onto my own understanding here 393 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: and just go with what the husband says. I guess 394 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, relative to Tammy at 395 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: the scene, I'd want to know how thorough was your 396 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: examination of her remains at the scene? Did you see anything? 397 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 1: Did you notice anything? What is it that made you 398 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: feel so comfortable that you felt like her body could 399 00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:20,880 Speaker 1: be released, transported to another state and buried. Never, and 400 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: I mean never, underestimate what a true professional in the 401 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: medical legal field can accomplish when given the tools, the time, 402 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: the facility, and their expertise to assess a human remain. 403 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 1: And boy was an assessment done by doctor Eric Christensen. 404 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: He's a medical examiner for the state of Utah. Dave, 405 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: we really had a big reveal, didn't we in court? Yes? 406 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 2: And I have one question before we go forward with this. 407 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 2: My question relates to she dies in her home in 408 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:57,720 Speaker 2: Idaho on October nineteenth, and she has moved across state 409 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: lines and they exhume her on December eleventh. Who does 410 00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: the autopsy? Would it be the coroner from Rexburg, Idaho 411 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 2: going to Utah to do the autopsy or Idaho is 412 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 2: that now out of the picture and it's all being 413 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 2: dealt with in Utah. 414 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got a body that is now buried in Utah. 415 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: You have to have a burial certificate. You know that 416 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: they're going to crack up in the ground create a 417 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: new grave and that person is going to be deposited 418 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: there in the state of Utah. So that has to 419 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,080 Speaker 1: be worked through now the corner up in Idaho. They 420 00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,719 Speaker 1: can request or you know, certainly law enforcement could as 421 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: well request a exhumation. That can request it. That doesn't 422 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: mean that they can order it. And it's going to 423 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: come down to the state officials in Utah as to 424 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,280 Speaker 1: whether or not they're going to grant that request. But somebody, 425 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,400 Speaker 1: probably probably the state Attorney general up in Idaho, got 426 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: on the phone and had a conversation with people said, look, 427 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: this is what we're staring at, and maybe the FEDS 428 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: as well, because Dave, as you well know, we've been 429 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: following this that loath these many years. We've got dead 430 00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: bodies everywhere several different states, in several different states, and 431 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: not to mention You've got a federal park that's involved 432 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:08,719 Speaker 1: in all this, where you got two children or one 433 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: of the children where they were actually last seeing alive. 434 00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: So there's a lot of players involved in this. 435 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 2: Well, thankfully, at least in this particular case. Doctor Eric 436 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 2: Christiansen is Utah's chief medical examiner. And according to everything 437 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,880 Speaker 2: I'm seeing, Joe, they got oh boy, this, I don't 438 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,479 Speaker 2: want to be cold. And I pray people that if 439 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: you're a family member, you will forgive me. They got 440 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,040 Speaker 2: Tammy Davell's body out of the grave around six point 441 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,440 Speaker 2: thirty in the morning, and they had her body back 442 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: in the ground by two point thirty that afternoon. Is 443 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 2: it common to do it that fast? Joe? 444 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: I was actually shocked. I'm glad you picked up on that. 445 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: But you know what that tells me, Dave. The fact 446 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:49,680 Speaker 1: that they were able to get her reinterred in such 447 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: a short period of time. You know what that tells me, Dave. 448 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: It tells me that there was prep that took place. 449 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: They knew what they had to do, they went in 450 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: and they accomplished the task in short order. And that 451 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 1: means that you're standing by you have every technician known 452 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: demand that is saying, okay, guys, this is when we're starting. 453 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 1: The physician, doctor Christensen, he actually was there overseeing the exhamation, 454 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 1: so he physically was standing there as her remains were 455 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 1: brought up out of the ground, traveled with them back 456 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: to the State EMI's office. And it's at that point 457 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: that this examination took place. And it's almost like, I'm 458 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: not trying to be morbid here, but it's almost like 459 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: they would have pregamed this. They would have sat down 460 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: and there would have been a game plan. You know, 461 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: with everybody involved. You're going to have representatives from all 462 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,800 Speaker 1: of the interested parties, from law enforcement, perhaps they're going 463 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:47,560 Speaker 1: to be there. You're going to have, like I said, 464 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: your technicians there. I would imagine that probably Idaho had 465 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: sent down their crime scene people to document everything photographically. 466 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,199 Speaker 1: Not to mention, doctor Christensen is going to have his 467 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: own photography that is there. That's a bit different than 468 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: crime scene photography, where you're gonna be looking at specific trauma. 469 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,120 Speaker 1: And this actually comes into play in court because photographs. 470 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 1: One of the ways it's played out is that there 471 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: were certain photographs that the judge in Tammy Dabell's case 472 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: would not allow. They were not allowing these big broad photographs. 473 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: There were only a couple of those what we refer 474 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 1: to as macro photographs of the body. They were showing 475 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,399 Speaker 1: micro photographs, and even one observer said they couldn't actually 476 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 1: appreciate the anatomical orientation of the visual because you don't 477 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,880 Speaker 1: have a point of reference. Say, for instance, if you're 478 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: if you've got some kind of injury, and they've only 479 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: got like a close up image of that injury, you 480 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: can't appreciate where the apex of the shoulder is, or 481 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 1: the elbow or anything with the scale. It's that yeah, exactly, 482 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: Well there might have been a scale, but there's no 483 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 1: it's so tight that all you see is is skin. 484 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 2: So that's why they actually drew the pictures showing where 485 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 2: these were. 486 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the doctor would. And look when a doctor 487 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: doctor draws that diagram, and people have seen these diagrams 488 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,399 Speaker 1: that we generate at autopsy, they're not inflammatory. Would you 489 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: agree with that, Dave? I mean, they're not like a 490 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 1: dissected body. But you can yet, you can identify trauma 491 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: on the body to say I found it, I found 492 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 1: an abiration here, I found a contusion here, there's a 493 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: gunshot on here. You have this in a very non 494 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: inflammatory presentation. That's actually what happened, you know. And boy 495 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: did Christensen have a big reveal. I don't know, you know, 496 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: because we've waited for this for so long. He came 497 00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,760 Speaker 1: to some very interesting conclusions, didn't he. He did. 498 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 2: And the thing that we had been told all along, 499 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 2: course is that she died in her sleep. Forty nine 500 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 2: year old woman dies in her sleep. No need to 501 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 2: look into it any further, Wash your hands off, Hubby 502 00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 2: gets married again. But now we come to this trial. 503 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 2: We've got doctor Eric Christiansen on the stand, Utah's chief 504 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 2: medical examiner. We've got pictures, we've got drawings, but we 505 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 2: still don't know how she died. We know they said 506 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,640 Speaker 2: us fix you. But what in the world do we 507 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 2: find out? Joseph Scott Morgan. 508 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,440 Speaker 1: What the doctor's conclusion was was that Tammy Day Bell's 509 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: death actually arose first off, and this is quite horrible. 510 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,520 Speaker 1: There's evidence that she had been restrained, Dave. She's got contusions. 511 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: If people will put their hand just superior to their 512 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 1: left breast, Okay, there's a big focal area of hemorrhage there. 513 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: You've got a focal area of hemorrhage on the left bicep, 514 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: so that area that I was just referring to superior 515 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: to the left breast, So you've got a contusion there. 516 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: You've got a contusion the left bicep on the upper side, 517 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,600 Speaker 1: the upside, so if you're laying face down, then there's 518 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: a series of four contusions running down the right arm, Dave. 519 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: I mean they run down the length of the right 520 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 1: bicep almost up to the highest one is going to 521 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: be where the upper arm joins the shoulder, just almost 522 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: at the point of the armpit, and they run down 523 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: all the way to the crook of the right arm 524 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: or what we refer to as the anti cupital fossa, 525 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: which is where you bend your arm right there. Then 526 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: you flip Tammy's body over. Another line of contusions Dave, 527 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: that run down the posterior or the backside of her 528 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: right arm. There's actually four there, So you've got these 529 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: multiple contusions all over her body. And what he had 530 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: opined was that she was restrained, and these restraints appeared 531 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: to have occurred in the hours just prior to her 532 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: death or in the midst you know, those perimortem events 533 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,360 Speaker 1: that we talked about like in the throes of death, 534 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: and he was able to verify. You know, we talked 535 00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: about the frothy ademitus cone that had arisen out of 536 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: her mouth that was witnessed that morning. Actually I've seen, 537 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 1: I think by one of her kids. He was able 538 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: to demonstrate that there was a edema in her lungs 539 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: as well, So that gives you an idea for him, 540 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: at least he said, this is consistent with an asphixial death. Now, 541 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 1: how did this actually happen? Because you don't have anything 542 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: of significance on the neck that would give you an 543 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: idea of like a choking for perhaps, or a ligature strangulation. 544 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: But if she is restrained, if she is being held down, 545 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: if she is being tied up, I can't really see 546 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,720 Speaker 1: that happening. Given the nature of these bruises, because you've 547 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: got them on both aspects, You've got them on the 548 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: front and the back of the arm. It would seem 549 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: to me that perhaps just perhaps Tammy knew something was wrong, 550 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: something was happening, and maybe the perpetrator was on top 551 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: of her day and she was fighting, she was fighting 552 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: for her life in the middle of the night. Can 553 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: you imagine why up and you've got this big weight 554 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: upon you, and you know something is happening. You begin 555 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,200 Speaker 1: to fight back, but the person perhaps has more muscle 556 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: than you, they're stronger than you, they're weigh more than you. 557 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: And then while you initially have that feeling, suddenly something 558 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: maybe a hand or maybe even a pillow, compromises your 559 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 1: airway and begins to press down on you. And you're fighting. 560 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,880 Speaker 1: You're in a dead sleep while this happens, and you 561 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: wake up to this. You're fighting, you're struggling, and then 562 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they can't breathe anymore, and now 563 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: you've passed away in the marital bed, which, by virtue 564 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: of what doctor Christensen said, Dave, this is an indication 565 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: that this is he ruled his case not as a 566 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 1: natural you know, which we were told in the beginning, 567 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: this is some kind of seizure, it's some kind of 568 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 1: heart event or something. No, no, no, He said that 569 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,400 Speaker 1: her death is classified as a homicide and that this 570 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: is actually an asphyxial death. 571 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 2: You see bruising that has occurred prior to death, or 572 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 2: is it possible for a body to be bruised after death? 573 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 2: And I mean I know this is like asking a 574 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,719 Speaker 2: lot of questions at one time, but I'm really curious 575 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: because I know we've seen a discussion, or rather a 576 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: dialogue about the bruising on her body and where it happened. 577 00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 2: How can they tell when, where, and how it took 578 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: place when you got a dead body. 579 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: Dead bodies don't bruise. That's just something that doesn't happen. Now, 580 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: it can be traumatized. You know, have cuts and scrapes 581 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: and all those sorts of things, but they look different 582 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: than they do in life. But here's the thing. This 583 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 1: is what this forensic pathologist in Utah did, and this 584 00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: is absolutely brilliant. I've never talked about this on bodybacks before, 585 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: but it's a great opportunity to discuss it. This forensic 586 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: pathologist actually did a layer what's called a layer dissection 587 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: day where he didn't just merely cut into the tissue, Okay, 588 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: he painstaking leeon each one of these little contused areas 589 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 1: that they're seeing on Tammy Dave Bell's body. He did 590 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: a layer dissection where he went first down through the dermis, 591 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 1: which is that top layer of skin, got the epidermis. 592 00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: In the dermis, he kind of lifts that back and 593 00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 1: looks for the underside of the skin to see where 594 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: the bruising is there the contusion. Then he goes into 595 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:25,680 Speaker 1: what's referred to as the SubQ fat subcutaneous fat, goes 596 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: in there to see did the bruising extend down through there? 597 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: And then he trims back even further. He did this 598 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: probably on each one of these insults. Then he goes 599 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: into the muscle, Dave. He goes into the muscle and 600 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:43,319 Speaker 1: actually trims through it to see how deep this contusion went. 601 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 1: And you know what you can tell by that how 602 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 1: much direct pressure was applied, Because the deeper you go, 603 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: the more pressure is going to be applied, and it 604 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: gives you perhaps a sense of violence visv how much 605 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: pressure was applied and perhaps, yes, perhaps did Tammy fight back? 606 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,719 Speaker 1: And that's what everybody really wants to know. 607 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: You said she was restrained. Does that indicate there might 608 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,919 Speaker 2: have been more than one person restraining her? 609 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, great question, Dave, great question. How are you 610 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: going to pull that off? I wonder how exactly can 611 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: that be proven? I don't know necessarily that it could be. 612 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: I think that what we begin to think here is 613 00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 1: that you begin to look at those that are most 614 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: intimately involved, And if you're married, who are you most 615 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: intimate with? Well, that individual that you share a bed with. 616 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: That's quite something to consider for that moment time, particularly 617 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: given you remember what you said about Chad and marrying 618 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: Lori Valo. Give me the time framing in how. 619 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 2: Long Tammy died? October nineteenth, Chad day Bell married Lori 620 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 2: Valo on the beach in Hawaii November fifth. 621 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: Holy smokes. And then we've got Tammy's body being exhumed 622 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: in early December. My, how fast things happen? Huh? 623 00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,360 Speaker 2: With what we're seeing in court and the big reveal 624 00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,000 Speaker 2: of the bruises of restraining I'm still trying to wrap 625 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: my head around how did she? How was she asphixiated? 626 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: Will they ever be able to determine? 627 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know that they necessarily would have been 628 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: able to specifically identify the mechanism, But in his final conclusion, 629 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: Christensen actually opined that her death could have come about 630 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 1: as a result of smothering or what's referred to as 631 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: neck or chest compression, which means that you have a 632 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of weight pressing down upon the neck. You know, 633 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: chest can't rise and fall and your airways compromised because 634 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,759 Speaker 1: you've got pressing down on the neck you know where 635 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 1: the airway is, or externally you're compromising the airway by 636 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 1: blockage of the nasal passage in the mouth. Either way, 637 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:03,279 Speaker 1: this examiner concluded that her death was brought about as 638 00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: a result of her oxygen uptake being compromised, and it 639 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 1: was of course at the hand of another. I'm Joseph 640 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and this is bodybacks