1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: My Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and my co 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: host Joe McCormick is away from the virtual workspace today, 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,480 Speaker 1: so it's just me, but I'm going to be joined 6 00:00:23,600 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: by vertebrate zoologist and author Bill shut So. Bill is 7 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: the author of two previous nonfiction books, There's Dark Banquet 8 00:00:32,159 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: Blood and the Curious Lives of Blood Feeding Creatures. I 9 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: know for a fact that I've I've mentioned that book 10 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: on the show before. He also wrote Cannibalism, A Perfectly 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: Natural History. His latest book is Pump, A Natural History 12 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,880 Speaker 1: of the Heart, which is out right now and hard back, 13 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: as an e book and also as an audio book. 14 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: Now we're mostly going to be talking about the weird 15 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: and wonderful evolution of the heart, as well as humanity's 16 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 1: attempt to understand it through history. But as always I 17 00:01:01,080 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 1: have to stress that the book itself, Pump, in this case, 18 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: goes into far greater detail and includes so many more 19 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: wonderful examples. Uh uh. Case in point, we don't get 20 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: into the horseshoe crab at all or blood transfusions, but 21 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: there are great chapters in the book on these topics. 22 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: He's a great read and I highly recommend it. So 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: let's go ahead and jump into the interview. And Hey, 24 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: towards the end, we're actually going to chat a little 25 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: bit about horror movies. I'm not gonna spoil which one, 26 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: but it just happens to be a film that I 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: watched for the first time in recent weeks, so this 28 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: was this is quite enjoyable. Welcome to the show, Bill, 29 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: would you mind introducing yourself to our audience. Hi, Yeah, 30 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:41,280 Speaker 1: I'm nice to be here. My name is Bill shut 31 00:01:41,319 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: and I am a vertebrate zoologist and recently took an 32 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: early retirement from Long Island University, where I talked for 33 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: over twenty years. I taught anatomy and physiology to what 34 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:56,400 Speaker 1: courses and evolution and dinosaurs, and my research interests for 35 00:01:56,440 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: the past thirty years or so have centered around bats 36 00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: and and within the four plus species of bats, I 37 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:08,239 Speaker 1: specialized on the three vampire bats, and so that sort 38 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: of led to my first book after writing a bunch 39 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: of scientific papers, and and that was Dark Banquet, Blood 40 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: and the Curious Lives of Blood Feeding Creatures. And I 41 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:19,959 Speaker 1: followed that up with a book on cannibalism called Cannibalism 42 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: of Perfectly Natural History. And so here I am now 43 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: having written a book on the heart, and that is 44 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:29,400 Speaker 1: pumped a natural History of the Heart. When did you 45 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: know this is going to be your next book? Did 46 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: you just seem like the next logical step or was 47 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: there something in particular? Yeah, it really didn't seem like 48 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:40,639 Speaker 1: the first the next logical step because of the topics 49 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: that I had covered initially, We're we're more macabre, and 50 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,079 Speaker 1: and you know, you go from vampiresm to cannibalism into 51 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: the heart, and that's sort of there's sort of a 52 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: jump there. And and really what I was lucky enough 53 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: with the first two books to sort of find a 54 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: niche between the sensationalized, sort of garbage e stuff on 55 00:02:58,200 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: the on one side, and on the other side of 56 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 1: sort of academic material that nobody would read unless you 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: were studying those topics. And so I so I I 58 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 1: sort of fit myself into the into the middle of that. 59 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: And I've always been interested in taking complex or misunderstood 60 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: concepts and demystifying them, putting a zoological slant on them, 61 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: making it humorous, entertaining, and not using a whole lot 62 00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 1: of jargon and and then going off on sort of 63 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,519 Speaker 1: side trips where I got to discuss what I thought 64 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: and what I believe are important topics, whether it's history 65 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: or or or or or biology. So when I was 66 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: starting to think about what I wanted to write from 67 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 1: from my third nonfiction book, UM, my editors at Algonquin 68 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: and my agent all suggested that I possibly look for 69 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 1: something a bit more mainstream, and they gave me a 70 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: short list and and one of the things that I 71 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: did some preliminary research on was the Heart. And I 72 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 1: got to say, initially, I thought this has got to 73 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: have been done before, because there's a hundreds of books. 74 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: This topic is, you know, so widespread and popular, and 75 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: I was really surprised to find that that that there 76 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: was this space for the type of book that I 77 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: wanted to write, where you move through the animal kingdom, 78 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: you tell these interesting stories based on animals, and then 79 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: you move into humans, go into myths and the history 80 00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: of of a particular topic, UM, and then UM sort 81 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: of grab interesting stories about medicine, past, present and future. 82 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,919 Speaker 1: And so I was really surprised, tell you the truth, 83 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: that there was so much there and a lot of 84 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 1: it was really strange enough to satisfy that part of me. 85 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: And I've always been into um horror movies and and 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: and books, and so I always had this kind of 87 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: like weird bent as far as that stuff went. So UM. 88 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: Once I figured out that that that there was enough 89 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,200 Speaker 1: interesting material they had to satisfy myself and and I 90 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: think my readers that then it was a done deal 91 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: that I was going to work on the heart. So 92 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: the heart, especially from the human perspective, takes on all 93 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 1: of this additional symbolic like weight and you do you 94 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,240 Speaker 1: discuss this in the book, but that stripping away all 95 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 1: of that. What what is a heart and why did 96 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: it become necessary from an evolutionary perspective? Good question. Let 97 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: me lead off by saying that there are all sorts 98 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: of different things that you might call a heart, where 99 00:05:16,440 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: some people might not consider it to be a heart 100 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: because it doesn't have a specific lining that sort of thing. Um, 101 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: but a heart is really a pump, a muscular pump, 102 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,919 Speaker 1: so we're talking about uh, involuntary muscle, so it's not 103 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: under your conscious control. And when it contracts, it sends 104 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:41,160 Speaker 1: a fluid, either blood or if you're an insect hemolymph 105 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: around the body and there and what it's doing, and 106 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: there's there's variation here as well. Is it's carrying oxygen 107 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,440 Speaker 1: um to the body, and it's carrying carbon dioxide to 108 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: a place where you can be eliminated by the same token, 109 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,920 Speaker 1: it's carrying nutrients that are either absorbed through the digestive 110 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,799 Speaker 1: track wool to the body and getting rid of waste 111 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: products that are produced by the body. So it's a 112 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: way to move that fluid around and to move around 113 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: those substances. Now that is not a problem. If you're 114 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: really really tiny, you don't need to have a special 115 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: circulatory system because those those materials that I just mentioned 116 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: that they just diffuse in and out of your cell. 117 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 1: If you're a single celled organism, or if you're really 118 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: flat like a tape worm, then then that material just 119 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: moves from a high concentration to a low concentration. So 120 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,679 Speaker 1: just for as an example, um, if if a single 121 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: celled organism is surrounded by water and that water has 122 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: got more oxygen in it then is inside that cell, 123 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: then the oxygen is going to go from high concentration 124 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: outside the cell right through the cell membrane into the 125 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: cell itself, and and that's how that material moves. It 126 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: just goes high concentration to low. That works great if 127 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: you're tiny or or or flat, And it doesn't work 128 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:03,559 Speaker 1: at all if you have any kind of size, because 129 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: it's very difficult and and and diffusion doesn't work efficiently. 130 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: If you're talking about an organism with made of millions 131 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: of cells and thousands of cell layers thick, the fusion 132 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: just doesn't work, or it works, but it works really slowly. 133 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: So millions and millions of years ago, probably half a 134 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 1: billion years ago, in order four creatures to get larger, 135 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: they had to evolve systems that allowed those materials to 136 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: move in and out and within the body. That had 137 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: to take place. And so what evolved with these systems 138 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: of tubes and pumps to to help distribute that liquid, 139 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: which became the carrier for oxygen and nutrients and waste 140 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: and and carbon dioxide. Um. So, so it was in 141 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: a sense, organisms couldn't evolve to be as complex as 142 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: they are now. Um if they didn't have this transportation 143 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: system evolving inside them. I have to say, I really 144 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: love the evolutionary journey you take us on in the book. UM. 145 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: I think back to your your your book on vampires 146 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: and blood drinking and the evolution of bats. And in 147 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: a way, it's like we kind of think, we already 148 00:08:14,040 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: feel like the destination there is weird enough, so we 149 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: expect the journey to be weird. Um And with the heart, 150 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: it's easy to take it for granted, but it's such 151 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: a weird and wonderful evolutionary journey you describe. Oh, thank 152 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: you very much. Now I love how you explain that 153 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: we have to get away from the human centric view 154 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: that the human heart is is like the pinnacle of 155 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: design or anything of that nature, you know, the the 156 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:40,640 Speaker 1: ultimate and um in an evolution you describe a number 157 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 1: of of wonderful um and if I guess from the 158 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: human perspective, strange hearts in the book. If you were 159 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: to play favorites, which non human heart in the book 160 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: impressed you the most, um, probably the blue whale heart, 161 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: for for reasons that that might not be readily apparent. 162 00:08:57,679 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: And and so in the prologue in the first chat 163 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: through I detail the um the adventure that my friends 164 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 1: up at the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto took when 165 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: when unfortunately nine blue whales died on the ice up 166 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: in Canada. And and usually these whales sink and uh, 167 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: and three of them didn't. They washed the shore on 168 00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: in these remote spots and and and these guys went 169 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,200 Speaker 1: in there and and and recovered one of the hearts. 170 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 1: And the reason they did this is because you know, 171 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: they were mammalogists, and they kept hearing this question from 172 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:28,719 Speaker 1: folks about what's the largest heart in the world. Well, 173 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: blue whale heart, how big is it? They really didn't know. Well, 174 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: it's probably as big as an suv. But so so 175 00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: when they got the chance to go get one, they 176 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:41,319 Speaker 1: did it. And it took five years. We're tooking heavy 177 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: construction equipment to get to move these things around. There 178 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: were four of them inside the whale, pushing the heart 179 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: out through the ribs. And when the thing was when 180 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: when they finally got it on the ground, it when 181 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 1: I looked at the pictures of it reminds me of 182 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: like a four hundred pounds soup dumpling. It did not 183 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: look like a heart that you I get it. Uh, 184 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,480 Speaker 1: you know what a butcher's for example. Um. And so 185 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: there was so many strange things about the heart, and 186 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: one of them was was this shape that it took 187 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: because it we we think that it's able to collapse 188 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: under high pressure when they dive. They don't know, but 189 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,679 Speaker 1: this is what they hypothesize. The other thing is that 190 00:10:19,720 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: it was a lot smaller than they thought it was 191 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: gonna be. Now, this is the largest heart in the world, 192 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 1: Yes it is, but maybe it's the size of a 193 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: golf cart rather than an suv. And and that question 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: became really interesting to them and to myself. And and 195 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: what it boils down to is if you were to 196 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 1: look at the heart of a humming bird, for example, 197 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 1: and this is an animal that can can can beat 198 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: its wings eight hundred times a minute. To do that, 199 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: it takes muscle, and you know, it takes nutrients, it 200 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,280 Speaker 1: takes oxygen, produces carbon dioxides, so there's got to be 201 00:10:51,320 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: this massive amount of blood flowing into those flight muscles 202 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: in order to do that. Um one thing you can 203 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: do is have your heart beat as fast, and hummingbird 204 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: heart can beat twelve hundred beats per minute, and that 205 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: is probably about the physical limit that a heart can beat. 206 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: So we're talking about phil empty relax and then this 207 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,400 Speaker 1: whole thing taking place again, twelve hundred times a minute 208 00:11:14,440 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: is ridiculous. So so as a as a mechanical device, 209 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: it's probably about topped out right there. I don't know 210 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: if you can go any and beat any quicker than that. 211 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: The only other way to get more blood to these muscles, 212 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: these wing muscles, is to have a larger heart. So 213 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: because of that, um, hummingbirds have a heart that's four 214 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: or five times larger relative to their body size than 215 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 1: a blue whale heart, whose heart maybe beats ten fifteen 216 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 1: times a minute, and it doesn't have that high metabolic 217 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: demand that the little guys like hummingbirds and shrews might have. 218 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 1: That that to me was you know, that was probably 219 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: the most interesting. But you know, there was this long 220 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: list that I had to sort of picture before I 221 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 1: figured out how to answer that one. But but blue 222 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: whale hearts and they are on display. This heart has 223 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: gone through the plastination process. If you've ever seen the 224 00:12:02,360 --> 00:12:05,559 Speaker 1: body's exhibit, it's like these guys with their cadavers who 225 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: are posed and strange position drug dribbling the basketball with 226 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: no skin, which is trying to avoid that. Um. So 227 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: so this this this plastinated blue whale hard is now 228 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: back on display at the wrong and that's got a 229 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:22,319 Speaker 1: they have an interesting exhibit on the whales and they 230 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: so they pulled this thing back out of storage and 231 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: it's just fantastic, awesome. I I would love to see 232 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: that someday. And there's of course an illustration in the 233 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: book of you setting beside it. I like that. Than now, 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 1: on a similar note, you know, thinking back to you know, 235 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: getting away from the human centric view of the heart, 236 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: you stress that we also have to realize that the 237 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: organ systems in the body don't function like separate chapters 238 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: in a textbook. And uh. I found this really eye opening. Um, 239 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,719 Speaker 1: you know, because I think to my own self and 240 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, well, that's exactly how I think about it. 241 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: I think of those clear overlays and anatomy books, and 242 00:13:03,360 --> 00:13:06,080 Speaker 1: I think, Okay, this system, this system, um, and I 243 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: fall into that trap of thinking about my own body 244 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 1: that way. Can you can you get into this a 245 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: little bit because I found this a rather insightful part 246 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: of the book. Sure, as I might have mentioned, I 247 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: taught anatomy and physiology for for about two decades and 248 00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 1: and and one of the things that I stressed in 249 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 1: my students this is an extremely complex Uh. Of course 250 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: too semester course that I taught with a lot of 251 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: difficult concepts, and I think that that that the people 252 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: fall into this trap, especially students, are thinking that, Okay, 253 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: I'm taking an exam, I'm studying circulatory system, and now 254 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to take an exam and then I can 255 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:43,839 Speaker 1: forget that stuff before I get out to my car 256 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,800 Speaker 1: after the exam is over. And and that's just not 257 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: the case with when you talk about anatomy. So, for example, 258 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: in my mind, there's no way to separate the circulatory 259 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: system from the respiratory system because if you're going to begin, 260 00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about the fact that one of 261 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: the things that the hearts and circulatory systems do is 262 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 1: this circulate blood that carries oxygen. Well, how do you 263 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,120 Speaker 1: get that oxygen. That's the role of the respiratory system. 264 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,839 Speaker 1: And then at a microscopic level, the circulatory system and 265 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,719 Speaker 1: the respiratory system come into contact and there's this transfer 266 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: of either carbon dioxide from the circulatory system to the 267 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: respiratory system or oxygen from the respiratory system to the 268 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: circulatory system, and then we breathe out and the whole 269 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: thing starts again. So so I always stress the fact 270 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: that you can't that you really can't understand one without 271 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: putting it into into the context of the other. And 272 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: then you go into things like, well, how do how 273 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: do these muscles contract? Well, that's tied into the nervous 274 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 1: system as well. My students would laugh at me because 275 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 1: this is something that I've just stressed over and over again, 276 00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: that they have to think of this as something other 277 00:14:56,440 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: than chapters in a book. I love that, Like I say, 278 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: I feel like, even though I don't have, you know, 279 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 1: this kind of anatomy background, I still flash back to 280 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: those anatomy books from like high school and whatnot, and 281 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: and think of myself as devided that way. Now in 282 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: the book, you also get into the history of humanity's 283 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: understanding of the heart, and h I you stressed this 284 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: in the book, and I realize our our understanding of 285 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: this is imperfect. But can you talk about what the 286 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians seem to understand about the actual functionality of 287 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 1: the heart and heart related pathologies. Yeah, well, well the 288 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians and so we're talking, say, from from what 289 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: I have researched, something like fifteen hundred and fifty BC 290 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 1: E So that would be the Egyptian Book of the Heart, 291 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: which is written on compyrus and hieroglyphs, and and it 292 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: appears to some translators that the Egyptians knew quite a 293 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: bit about heart attacks and aneurysms. And you've got to 294 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: be careful there because these translations from Papyrus Um to 295 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: English or to whatever language you might be using, you've 296 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: got to be careful because that it's it's not precise. 297 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 1: They had a different way of thinking back then and 298 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: there and and our translations of ancient works, you always 299 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 1: have to sort of be careful about what you're about, 300 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: what about what you're stating as a as a fact, 301 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 1: what we do, we we are more sure that the 302 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: Egyptian physicians believe that the heart was was the center 303 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: of of things like emotion or what we would call 304 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: the soul. And then on a on a physiological level, 305 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: and this is this got picked up by the Greeks, 306 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 1: that that that there were really two circulatory systems, that 307 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: venus blood was completely different than our tier real blood, 308 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: which was actually air and so um. So it was 309 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:07,639 Speaker 1: initially thought by these guys that and and then passed 310 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: onto the to the to the Greeks, and then and 311 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: then the Romans who disproved the air part um, that 312 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: that the venus blood derived from the liver uh and 313 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 1: and some of it seeped across into the into the 314 00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: left side uh and that mixed with air, and there 315 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: was this magical material called numa in the air. And 316 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 1: and and so they got a lot wrong. Um. Not 317 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: that's not to sort of mock them, because they were 318 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: working with you know, zero instrumentation and things that we 319 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 1: take for granted nowadays. Um. But unfortunately that got picked 320 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: up by the that that the idea of cardiocentrism and 321 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 1: and and also their their ideas about um about the 322 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,720 Speaker 1: circulatory system were picked up by the by the Greeks 323 00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: because Egyptian medicine, that that type of information was held 324 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,760 Speaker 1: in high esteem by by the Greeks. Up from their 325 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: Hypocrates and arrow Stottle wrote about about the heart and 326 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: the circulatory system, they stayed with this sort of cardiocentric view, 327 00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: that that that that that the heart was the center 328 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: of things like that like the mind and intellect. And 329 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: they really thought of it the way we now think 330 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 1: of the nervous system. Um. So at the same time, 331 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 1: now artists are jumping into play and their writing, and uh, 332 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: it's poetry and and and there are there's all sorts 333 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: of plays and and and this idea that the heart 334 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 1: is the seat of emotion became entrenched with artists and 335 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: it's still there, um and and then passed on to 336 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: the Romans, you know, And that's when things take a 337 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 1: downturn because of because of somebody who must have been 338 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: brilliant at the time, Galen. But U but that that 339 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:50,880 Speaker 1: was problematic as as we might talk about event Yeah, 340 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: my next question concerns that because because Galen, of course 341 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: is always this important figure that that we have to 342 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,719 Speaker 1: bring up and we discuss uh in anatomical history and 343 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: the dancement of anatomical knowledge. But as you discussed in 344 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: the in the book, in many ways that you put 345 00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: Western medicine back um years tell us about this. Yeah. So, 346 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: so Galen was a Roman surgeon and uh, and he 347 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: got to travel to to to to Egypt and picked 348 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:23,040 Speaker 1: up methodology UM. And then um worked in the gladiatorial 349 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: school as a physician and and began to study anatomy. 350 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: But there was a it was it was outlawed to 351 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: to actually work on human cadaver. So a lot of 352 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 1: what he interpreted about the human body, came through dissections 353 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: of things like apes or dogs or pigs, and and 354 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: he wrote a lot and and and some of the material, 355 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: the three million words that were eventually recovered, may have 356 00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: been written by his followers years later, maybe even after 357 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:54,600 Speaker 1: Galen died. But the thing is that he um he 358 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: got a lot wrong. So this was all taking place 359 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: in the second century CE, and um after Rome fell 360 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: hundreds of years later. Galen's work was not was not 361 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:12,320 Speaker 1: initially translated into Latin, which was the language of sciences 362 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 1: back back then, and so it it sat around untranslated 363 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: and and was not translated until the early Middle Ages, 364 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: and it was translated by Christians. They were Syrians, and 365 00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: so when they translated Galen's work, they did it into Arabic, 366 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: and they put their Christian slant on that translation. Now, 367 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: that work that had been translated into Arabic was eventually 368 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:44,480 Speaker 1: translated into Latin, and it reflected that Christian slant that 369 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: the Syrian translators had put on it. And and the 370 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 1: problem was is that that looked great to the leaders 371 00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,000 Speaker 1: of the church, and and that you know that we're 372 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: talking about so of the European Church and the Western Church, 373 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 1: and so they looked at it and said, well, this 374 00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: material is divinely inspired. And so it became in a 375 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 1: sense the rule of law that that you had to 376 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 1: follow in a lockstep fashion Galen's teachings. And so if 377 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 1: a fifteen hundred years it was pretty much verboting to 378 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 1: do research and and and so. Um, So medicine stagnated 379 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: and that became really and that was really problematic because 380 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: so much of what of what was practice was wronging. 381 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 1: This whole idea of the four humors, you have to 382 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: bleed people to balance these four substances of one of 383 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: them didn't exist. Um, So that was a real that 384 00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,560 Speaker 1: that was really troublesome and you and that continued in 385 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: some ways right up until the early twentieth century. They're 386 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: still bleeding people. So so that was that was a 387 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: bit problematic. Yeah, And like you put it in the book, 388 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:55,400 Speaker 1: speaking of the humors that you know, we still talk 389 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,960 Speaker 1: about people being melancholy, So we still have the linguistic 390 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: legacy of system or sanguine. Yes. Thank Now, skipping ahead 391 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: more into the present and looking ahead to the future, 392 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: you describe some amazing advances and medical science in the book. 393 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: You get into what you get into the history of 394 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: blood transfusion to where we are now. You you discuss 395 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: some hard transplants, how far are we away from what 396 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 1: we I guess sometimes roughly referred to as as lab 397 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,000 Speaker 1: grown hearts. Um. Yeah, this is to me, this was 398 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 1: one of the most amazing things because I got to 399 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: go to Harvard and and meet with a researcher by 400 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 1: the name of Harold Ott. And he is he is 401 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: aware of the fact that that there's a real problem 402 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 1: with with with people on waiting lists for organs and 403 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: and and and thousands of people die every year, not 404 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: necessarily waiting for hearts, but waiting for livers, waiting for kidneys, um, 405 00:22:56,840 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: and and and so um. What he's trying to do 406 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,080 Speaker 1: is take a very different approach. The reasons why the 407 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: people wind up dying on a waiting list is because 408 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: you have to have the right type tissue type, blood type. 409 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: You've got to be able to move this thing maybe 410 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: across the country, um, keep it refrigerated, and and so 411 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: that's often times a crapshoot whether that's going to work 412 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: out for somebody. So what he's done is and and 413 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: this is preliminary, He's taken cadaver hearts and put them 414 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 1: through in a sense of the turgent rints, and that 415 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: the turgent doesn't wash away the dirt, it washes away 416 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: the cells in the heart that your body would reject 417 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: were you to take up that heart and transplanted. So 418 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: we're talking about the muscle fibers and and other associated cells. 419 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: And so what's left is this ghost white framework of 420 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 1: the heart. So now you've got something that that looks 421 00:23:57,560 --> 00:23:59,959 Speaker 1: like a heart but really has no other cells besides 422 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 1: the connective tissue cells, which your body is not going 423 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: to reject. Okay, So now what he's done is, and 424 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 1: this science does exist, he will take a sample a 425 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 1: biopsy or a sample of skin cells from the person 426 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 1: who's going to receive the heart, the recipient and and 427 00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: and so so we're not talking about something deep in 428 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: the body. This is This just comes right from your skin. 429 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: And these are quick. These cells are called fiber blasts. 430 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: The science now exists convert those fiber blasts into stem cells, 431 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: and stem cells, depending on how the body stimulates them, 432 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,959 Speaker 1: can be converted into any type of cell. Now, so 433 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: what they are able to do now still is to 434 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: take these stem cells and stimulate them to become muscle cells. 435 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: And so his idea now is to take these muscle 436 00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: cells and embed them, seed them, as it were, onto 437 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: this heart, to this framework, and grow a heart that 438 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: is a match for this recipient. And and and and it 439 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 1: won't reject the recipient won't reject that that heart, The 440 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 1: immune system won't won't find it to be foreign cells 441 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: or foreign tissue because it actually is derived from the 442 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,480 Speaker 1: cells of that recipient. So when I asked them, how 443 00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: long do you think this is going to take until 444 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: it becomes commonplace? He said ten years. That's his hope. 445 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: So I said, well, so, so how does that work? 446 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: He said, Well, somebody comes in with a heart problem, 447 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: they need a heart transplant. You take a sample from them, 448 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,640 Speaker 1: you do what I just described about how you change 449 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 1: them into stem cells. You take a cadab or heart, 450 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 1: you embed it, and then you do this transplant and 451 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,320 Speaker 1: the person is you know, is up and walking in 452 00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: a day or two. Well, it's really exciting to imagine 453 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: getting to that point. And uh, and like I said 454 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: in the book, you know, there's this this wonderful evolutionary 455 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: journey you take us on. I love the journey through 456 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,359 Speaker 1: our our attempts to scientifically and I guess culturally understand 457 00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: what the heart is. Uh. Now I have to ask, 458 00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: we're getting since we're getting into October here, You're previous 459 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: books have dealt with vampires and cannibals. Um, now we 460 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: do dealing with the heart and blood. And I'm to 461 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: understand you're working on a book about teeth. So I 462 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,920 Speaker 1: have to ask, what what what is your favorite movie Monster? 463 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,360 Speaker 1: Without a doubt, it is the original, So the nineteen 464 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: fifty one version of the thing, Yeah with um James 465 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,400 Speaker 1: Arness that who's in gun Smoke in the nineteen sixties 466 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 1: and I guess early seventies playing this uh walking carrot 467 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 1: who lands crash lands in the Arctic, and how it's 468 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,680 Speaker 1: recovered by this research group and what happens when when 469 00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 1: it gets thought out by mistake. I just think it 470 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: has The movie has everything to me. Um, it is, 471 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 1: It's got a great mood, it has wonderful that has 472 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: a wonderful soundtrack. It's one of the first films ever 473 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: that has overlapping dialogue. So when you hear these these 474 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,199 Speaker 1: soldiers and these scientists and conversation, they're not waiting for 475 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: someone else to stop talking. Before they before they talk. 476 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 1: So this old has to do with the director, Howard 477 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: Hawks and it's just to me, is is a perfect 478 00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: film and stands up. Um even today, a lot of 479 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: people are in love with the John Carpenter two movie, 480 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: which is a gore fest good movie, you know. Um 481 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: but um, but I don't think that it that it Uh, 482 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: I don't think it's it's it's it's quite as as 483 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: much of a classic as as as the original. I 484 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: have to agree with you about the the the original 485 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,480 Speaker 1: holding up so well. I happen to have just watched 486 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: it for the first time a week or two ago, 487 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: and um, yeah, the I totally agree on the dialogue. 488 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: It's it's it's snappy and and real and so many 489 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: of the secret I feel like there there were those 490 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: promo images of James R. Ness as the monster, and 491 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: especially for people who came up, uh you know, post Carpenter, 492 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: we kind of looked at that and we're like, I 493 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: don't I don't want to maybe don't want to see 494 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: a movie with this old fashioned looking monster. But the 495 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,359 Speaker 1: way it shot in the film is so impressive, and 496 00:27:57,359 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: you have that that really frightening sequence with the fire. 497 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: I think it totally holds up. Well when that door 498 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: opens and it's standing on the other side of the 499 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:11,080 Speaker 1: door and it's just like slams the doorframe. Um. The well, 500 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,360 Speaker 1: I think it's very it's really funny. Um and and 501 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: it affected me so much that when I started to 502 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,359 Speaker 1: write fiction, and I've written three novels, I've based the 503 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,880 Speaker 1: characters in those novels on the characters in The Thing 504 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: and especially the original, but but certainly some of the 505 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: characters in the Uh. You know, when I was looking 506 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: for for a name of the character, I'd go looking 507 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: in in those movies, especially McCready. Who's Who's the hero in? 508 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: In these three technic no thrillers that that I wrote 509 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: with my co author Finch, I have to ask how 510 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: old were you when you first saw The Thing from 511 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: Another World? Young? Um? My parents, you know, back back 512 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: when I was a little kid, we went to the 513 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: drive in every week. Now that that movie is older 514 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: than I am, it's it's it's actually seventy years old 515 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: this year, and so I probably was five six years old, 516 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: and uh, you know that type of of of film. 517 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: And I've always been a huge film buff. And when 518 00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: I'm writing my my novels, I'm thinking about these big 519 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 1: cinematic scenes and and and I think that when when 520 00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:27,280 Speaker 1: I write nonfiction, I'm able to go back. So I 521 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: opened up the you know, cannibalism with with the story 522 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 1: of a vent gain who was who was It was 523 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 1: really the cannibal murderer. That that the that the that 524 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: the Bates character and Psycho was based on. You know, 525 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 1: Alfred Hitchcock just took this real event and and got 526 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: rid of the cannibalism aspect and and kept the mother 527 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 1: obsession aspect of it. And so that to me is 528 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: that's another perfect film that there there are there's about 529 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: five of them, Psycho being one, and and and the 530 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: original Thing being another. In the original the Thing, it 531 00:30:05,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: also is more of a blood drinker, It is more 532 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: of a vampire. Do you think that had any any 533 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: impact on your eventual study of vampire bats? Uh? You know, 534 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: I wish I could say, because that sounds so cool, 535 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: that connection, but you know, I do always. But I've 536 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: been into into vampire movies as well. You know, I've 537 00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: been into the original Dracula and and then the Hammer 538 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: versions that came out in the in the sixties and seventies. 539 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: So so I guess I'd always been intrigued by by 540 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: blood feeding. But when when I started the study bats, 541 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: that was my first semester as a PhD student at 542 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: Cornell Um. I've always been into strange animals and and 543 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: and I've always kept a lot of animals as pets. 544 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I had a monkey. That's 545 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: how different things we're back then. Every snake, every type 546 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 1: of lizard, whatever, whatever you could could find in a 547 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: pet shop or collect under a rock or drag out 548 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: of a log um. So so I'd always been into 549 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: sort of offbeat type creatures and and so when I 550 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: started to work on bats, it probably took me about 551 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 1: five minutes to decide that within these fourteen hundred species 552 00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: that I wanted to work on, the three vampires. And 553 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: I just lucked out because in the early nineties of 554 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: what it was known in the literature about vampire bats 555 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: was known about the common vampire bat, and the other 556 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: two were open books. So that allowed me to go 557 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: in and do research on these because I was really 558 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: lucky because a lot of not we say a lot 559 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 1: a number of really important um influential bat biologists took 560 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: me aside and said, you know, Bill a vampire, about 561 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: as a vampire, about as a vampire. But you're not 562 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: gonna see differences. And I was fresh out of classes 563 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: thinking it doesn't that doesn't make sense, because if you 564 00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: have two animals that do the same thing and they 565 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: live in the same place, then then then either one 566 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: of them is going to adapt different behavior, or it's 567 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: going to migrate, or it's going to go extinct. And 568 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: so when so this this this little biologist Arthur greenhallf 569 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 1: Museum and Natural History, which I've been lucky enough to 570 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: be there since the early nineteen nineties as well, took 571 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: me aside and said, Candy got something, so shut up 572 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: now and go do it um. And from there I 573 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: was able to look at all these differences that were 574 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: clearly apparent once we started looking at them, and just 575 00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: to sort of put a shout out there. It's not 576 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: that people didn't know about it, because when I went 577 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: down to places like Trinidad, they knew from the start 578 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: that there were these huge differences. One of them fed 579 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: on birds, the other one is on the ground and 580 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: feeding on cows and pigs, um. And they knew about it. 581 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: They just weren't publishing. And so I've made it a 582 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: point to bring these guys on as co authors and 583 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: bring them up and make sure that they came to 584 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: conferences and and got to do that. I thought they 585 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: deserved bringing back to pump for a second. I also 586 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: loved the bit where you get into the the bats 587 00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: that hibrinate uh in the in the snow. Yeah. Um, 588 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: not a whole lot is known about them, except that 589 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: there's a species of bat that lives in Japan that 590 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: that that evidently hibernates in in in snow. And and 591 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 1: so the researchers originally thought, well, this this, these guys 592 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:18,479 Speaker 1: in polar bears are the only the only mammals that 593 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: do that, uh and so what since then, since this 594 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: work was started, they figured out that polar bears might 595 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: not really be card carrying hibernators because they wake up 596 00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: off and during in the in the winter. Um. And 597 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: so it's not known if these bats are if these 598 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: bats wake up in the middle of the winter or not. 599 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: But they make this little with their body heat. They 600 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 1: carve this little cone in the snow, and then the 601 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 1: snow covers them and you don't find them until until 602 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: the spring, when it's either either somebody that digs them 603 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: up by mistake or or thaws out, and you know 604 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: that they're cold. They're laying there for a while and 605 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,959 Speaker 1: then start to crank some some blood moving through them, 606 00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: and then they fly off. But yeah, that was just 607 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: one of I don't know, dozens of really interesting stories 608 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: that I've learned about because the learning curve was steep, 609 00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: which made it that much more interesting. You know. I 610 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: don't go into these things as sort of experts on 611 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,799 Speaker 1: on the heart, for example, or cannibalism, thankfully. Of course, 612 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,240 Speaker 1: the bats also remind me of the thing from another world, 613 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, the organism is suspended in the ice, which 614 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: I guess drives home no matter how weird. An idea 615 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,239 Speaker 1: is that we dream up about an alien creature, like 616 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,120 Speaker 1: there's something in the natural world that is already as 617 00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: weird or weirder. Right, oh, yeah, no doubt. And and 618 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 1: that's you know, I try to bring that out in 619 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: the book as well. And and then the fun thing 620 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: is to try to tie that into modern medicine. So 621 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 1: you have uh, you know, you know, you have an 622 00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:53,800 Speaker 1: aquarium fish, the zebra fish, which everybody's seeing this little stripes, 623 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: the horizontal stripes. Turns out that if you snippal its heart. 624 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,960 Speaker 1: The heart not only grows back, but it's completely functioned. 625 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:05,319 Speaker 1: Now if you were to do that, you know, we 626 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 1: don't really do that similar gladiatorial combat. You know a 627 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 1: lot of people are upset about that. But to be serious, 628 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 1: if if you have a part of your heart is 629 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 1: damaged because the blood flow has been cut off to it, 630 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,720 Speaker 1: and and and it and in a sense that tissue 631 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,280 Speaker 1: dies when it grows back. It's scar tissue. It's not contractile, 632 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,880 Speaker 1: good function named muscle tissue. That's not the case with 633 00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: the zebrafish. So how do we take that? What does 634 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: the zebrafish have going for it that enables it to 635 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 1: completely repair? It's hard after being traumatically uh injured? That 636 00:35:39,160 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: and and how do you translate that into um into 637 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,760 Speaker 1: curing a sick heart that is undergoing a heart attack 638 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: or multiple heart attacks? And there was a list of 639 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: those that that I ran into. So that was kind 640 00:35:54,600 --> 00:35:56,799 Speaker 1: of fun as well. Well. Bill, thanks for taking time 641 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 1: out off your date to chat with us about the book. Well, 642 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: it was really good to be here, especially to talk 643 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: about the thing that's a that's a new one for me, 644 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: that one I haven't spoken to have been interviewed about 645 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: So it was a real pleasure to meet you and 646 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: talk with your Robert all right, thanks again to Bill 647 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: Shut for chatting with me. You can check him out 648 00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: online at Bill Shut dot com. That's b I L 649 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,399 Speaker 1: L S C H U T T dot com. Uh. 650 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,680 Speaker 1: That website contains links to his social media accounts as well. 651 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: The website features information about his three nonfiction books That's 652 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:35,200 Speaker 1: Dark Banquet, Cannibalism, and Now Pump, as well as his 653 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: three fiction books co written with J. R. Finch That's 654 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: Hell's Gate, The Himalayan Codex, and The Darwin Strain. I 655 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: have not read these but yet, but now I'm super 656 00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: interested to check them out after after chatting with Bill. 657 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: In the meantime, as you would like to check out 658 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind where you 659 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: can find them in the Stuff to Blow Your Mind 660 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: podcast feed. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, we give you our 661 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: core science episodes. On Monday's we do listener Mail. On 662 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:08,320 Speaker 1: Wednesday's we do an artifact short form episode. On Friday's 663 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: we do a little Weird how Cinema You know what 664 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 1: that is. That's our chance to kick back and discuss 665 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,759 Speaker 1: a weird film, and yes, as luck would have it, 666 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 1: we very recently discussed the Thing from Another World on 667 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,799 Speaker 1: the show, so hey, especially after this chat with Bill, 668 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: go back and listen to that episode if you haven't, again, 669 00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: wonderful film. Oh and then on the on the weekends 670 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 1: we do a little rerun that's a vault episode. Thanks 671 00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: as always to Seth Nicholas Johnson for producing the show 672 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,520 Speaker 1: and recording us here and if you would like to 673 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: email us, as always, you can do so at contact 674 00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to 675 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 676 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 677 00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows. 678 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:11,560 Speaker 1: I think it doesn't four star