WEBVTT - Selects: How Forgiveness Works 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.160 Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and I thought for my 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:06.080 picks this year, I would kick off twenty twenty six 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:10.400 with a very sweet, moving, and also eye opening episode 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.520 on forgiveness. It turns out all of us have the 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.200 capacity to forgive, but that's not always the best course 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.360 of action for any given circumstance. This episode also has 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.560 a lot of really great stories of amazing acts of 0:00:24.600 --> 0:00:28.880 forgiveness by people who forgave others against all odds. It's 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.080 a good episode and I hope you enjoy it, and 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:33.440 I hope your year is going wonderfully so far. 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:44.760 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:49.280 Hey, you, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 0:00:49.400 --> 0:00:51.800 Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:57.800 should know. Some philosophical waxing is going to happen in 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:02.160 this one. I think it's inevitable. Pull Chuck, that's right, 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.920 and Don Henley songs Oh yeah, that's a good one too, 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.280 Heart of the Matter. Mm hmm. You like it sure, 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.600 all right? That part where he's like, I'm learning to 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:20.080 live with that, dude. No, it stirs my soul every time. Forgiveness. Yeah, 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:22.080 you'd have to be dead inside to not be stirred 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.800 by that part. I agree, it's good, good song, but 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:28.360 he really kind of nails it in that because he's 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:32.399 talking about forgiveness and the heart of the matter. Sure, 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:38.280 and he's he wants forgiveness, he needs forgiveness, even if 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:39.960 like it's the end of the relationship. 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:41.800 Yeah, even if she doesn't love him anymore. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.440 Sure. So, on the one hand, that is a certain 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:50.320 kind of forgiveness that an individual or person can that's 0:01:50.360 --> 0:01:53.800 a path someone can set down. But there's been a 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.400 lot of research starting starting in the very beginning stages 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.200 at the middle of the twentieth but really picking up 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:06.160 in the nineties, research into forgiveness, like legitimate scientific research, 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:08.560 and it's a multidisciplinary thing because there's a lot of 0:02:08.560 --> 0:02:14.960 different fields disciplines, sure, that have said, hey, this actually, 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.920 this is something we can study and measure and produce 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:22.760 articles and work on. And they have, They've produced some 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.600 really good, legitimate work. But what most of them have 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.880 been focused on is not the Don Henley position of 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.600 somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.840 feel better, who needs forgiveness, yeah, but rather the person 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:40.880 doing the forgiving the person who has originally transgressed against, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:44.239 not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:48.000 the research has been done on forgiveness. Right. 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.840 Don Henley is a rock star, so he's writing a 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.680 song about wanting to be forgiven for a foursome he 0:02:55.720 --> 0:03:01.560 had in Saint Paul backstage. Sure, even if you don't 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:02.960 love me anymore, can you forgive me that? 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:10.560 You know? Can you blame a guy? Is what he's saying. So, yeah, 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.560 I think that's probably exactly what that song is about. 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:16.399 Now that you mentioned that's the subtext. So I think 0:03:16.400 --> 0:03:20.680 we should start by pointing out something about forgiveness. Is 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:24.640 that a lot of people there's a lot of stories 0:03:24.680 --> 0:03:29.000 about people not forgiving. We call it revenge, and people 0:03:29.080 --> 0:03:33.359 love revenge, you know, Like think about the revenge movie 0:03:33.440 --> 0:03:37.040 genre and how many entries there are pretty great? Like 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.640 have you ever seen I Saw the Devil? Yeah? Have 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:45.280 you ever seen Old Boy? Yeah? Have you ever seen 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:51.800 Death Becomes Her? Yeah? Have you ever seen She Devil? Nope? 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.160 Oh you haven't. With Roseanne Barr and Ed Bigley and 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:01.880 Mary Movie, yes, all of them great revenge movies. Can 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.000 I shout out one of my favorites? Yeah, please do. 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.800 Like legitimately, it's kind of a smaller indie movie called 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:08.440 Blue Ruin. 0:04:09.200 --> 0:04:10.520 Oh yeah, I saw that one. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.960 Great great revenge movie. If you're into revenge movies and 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.680 I am, I enjoy it. There's a cap arsis involved 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:18.760 because I'm a big forgiver, So I think I like 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:21.279 seeing movies where revenge happens. 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:24.320 Yeah, and we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge, 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:28.040 because they're virtually two sides of the same coin, and 0:04:28.160 --> 0:04:31.520 they really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.159 when you see it laid out, but you might not 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.919 necessarily be walking around thinking about. But on the other side, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:41.000 if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:45.080 them were produced by a megachurch somewhere in the South. 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:51.120 Or you've got Magnolia and then the Fisher King are 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:55.120 like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness. 0:04:55.839 --> 0:04:59.440 Well, I don't know, because I think there's a fine 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.920 line sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories. 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:04.719 Okay, they can kind of go hand in hand. There 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:10.080 are plenty of redemption stories. Okay, like what what redemption stories? Yeah, 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.000 let's hear it. Oh, I mean. 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:17.880 Hoosiers one of the great sports redemption movies. 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:23.000 Okay, I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption. 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:28.000 Now, former alcoholic coach who who was not working because 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:31.200 of some bad deeds gets redeemed by looking a team 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.120 to a championship. Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father. 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:40.400 Wait a minute, was was Gene Hackman on the road 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.040 to redemption? I thought he came in and basically got 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.920 Dennis Hopper redeemed a double redemption. He was getting redeemed 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.640 as well. All right, Okay, okay, okay, So plenty. 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:52.359 Of redemption stories, and I think there's a lot of 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.760 movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness and really weighty, 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:02.480 heavy ways, like these true stories that you hear about 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:06.240 these awful things that happen, whether a family member is 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.680 accidentally killed by someone or murdered by someone, like, there's 0:06:10.720 --> 0:06:12.120 a lot of that stuff in movies. 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.799 Okay. So my thesis is this, and this is strictly 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.159 me editorializing here, I think there's some validity to it, 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.280 and that is that the reason why it's much easier 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:26.280 to name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:31.719 baser instincts. It makes sense, it's universally understood. And like 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.480 you said, you even consider yourself a big time forgiver, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.880 and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you. 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.560 There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie. Yep, 0:06:40.839 --> 0:06:45.839 a movie about forgiveness, it's just more complicated, it's harder. 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:52.880 We're not as good and we're not as automatically adept 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.840 at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. That's why 0:06:56.880 --> 0:07:00.680 I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's not to 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:02.400 say that we're not moved by it, because I think 0:07:02.440 --> 0:07:07.080 if you hear whenever you hear real life stories of forgiveness, 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.320 they just bowl you over. Oh yeah, even when you 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.200 step back and think about like what the person's actually doing, 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:17.080 you're like, yes, legitimately, anybody could do what they just did. 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:23.320 It's it's akin to hearing somebody's solo climbing Mount Everest 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:26.360 or something like that. It's it makes the news literally 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:31.000 when somebody forgives in like a really deep way that 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:32.480 the average person might. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.920 Not, yeah, like a big time transgression. A lot of 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.360 times you'll hear of a courtroom scene where someone has 0:07:39.520 --> 0:07:43.440 forgiven the person who like murdered their relative or loved 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:46.800 one or something, and that man, that stuff is powerful. 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:50.360 You're right every time you see these stories. You dug 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:56.520 up this one story from Berkeley the Greater Good magazine 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.640 Science Based Insights for a Meaningful Life out of UC 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:06.960 Berkeley of this woman who was a nurse's aide who 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.480 hit a guy. She had been drinking hit a guy 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:13.480 in her car. He went through the windshield and was 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.040 stuck there, and she was so impaired she didn't realize 0:08:17.040 --> 0:08:21.560 it for a while. Eventually realized that got out of 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:24.320 the car, could not get the guy out, who was 0:08:24.360 --> 0:08:28.480 still alive, mind you, and so drove home and parked 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:30.720 her car in the garage to let this guy slowly 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.600 die yeah, in her garage. 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:35.400 Over the course of a couple of days, and like 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:37.960 she sobered up, would go out and chuck on him 0:08:38.000 --> 0:08:39.880 once in a while, but refused to call for help 0:08:39.920 --> 0:08:42.800 because she was too concerned about getting in trouble, so 0:08:42.880 --> 0:08:45.959 instead she let him die, had a couple friends come 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:49.000 help her hide the body, move the body, and then 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:52.520 actually got found out later on because four months later 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:54.960 she was at a party and she joked about it 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.480 to an acquaintance who went and told the cops, and 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.000 this woman ended up getting fifty years in pre that's 0:09:01.040 --> 0:09:03.800 a horrible story, Like that's one of the worst things 0:09:03.840 --> 0:09:06.240 that a human being could possibly do. There were so 0:09:06.400 --> 0:09:09.440 many opportunities for this woman to save this man's life. 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.880 And by the way, everyone involved in that court case 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.240 who had a medical degree said that had she called 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.440 the cops, the fire department taken the guy to the hospital, 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.760 he almost certainly would have survived those injuries. But given 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:26.480 that she didn't for days get him medical aid, he 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:29.200 finally did succumb to them, but he probably would have survived, 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.920 almost certainly would have survived. Like what she did was 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:35.439 about as horrific as what a person could do and 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:39.559 just so irresponsible with human life. And she rightfully got 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:44.480 a fifty year prison sentence for that crime. And yet 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:48.480 despite how horrific that was, what made news just as 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.600 much as that is that a short time later that 0:09:51.720 --> 0:09:55.760 man's son, the man who was hit and killed publicly 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.720 forgave that woman for killing his father. 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:05.079 Yes, at the sentencing said quote, there's no winners in 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.080 a case like this. Just as we all lost Greg, 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:11.559 you all will be losing your daughter to her family. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:15.439 I still want to extend my forgiveness to Chante Mallard 0:10:15.720 --> 0:10:17.559 was her name, and let her know that the Mallard 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.319 family is in my prayers. And this is the kind 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:22.400 of stuff, like you said, that makes the news where 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:27.160 I think it hits everybody because it makes everybody stop 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:28.520 for a second and. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.520 Say, could I do that? Yes? 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:36.000 Could I reach that point of forgiveness? And that's a 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:42.080 big weighty question because there's all kinds of forgiveness. There's 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:46.840 a couple partners together who get in a fight and 0:10:46.920 --> 0:10:49.240 someone says they're sorry for doing a certain thing, and 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.959 they're forgiven or not. There are situations at work where 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:56.920 people are forgiven. There are friends who maybe betray you 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:03.520 by like cheating on on somebody with someone. I had 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.360 a situation like that where I had a former friend 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:10.839 I felt like cheated with my barely ex girlfriend and 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.400 I spent quite a few years being upset about that 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.800 and then forgave him. And it's a powerful thing. So 0:11:17.840 --> 0:11:20.880 there's like levels. But when you get to this kind 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.600 of thing where someone caused the death of a loved 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:27.000 one and then even laughed about it, like to be 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.199 able to forgive like that is just that's next level. 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:33.160 It is. It is so much so, Chuck, that a 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.000 group of convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.679 heard about this, and I guess got in touch with 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:44.679 one another and raised funds and got a ten thousand 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:50.920 dollars scholarship together, Wow, for Brandon Biggs to go to college. 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:53.839 The convicted murderer sent the kid to college because this 0:11:54.679 --> 0:11:58.520 very generous act of public forgiveness of his own father's murderer. 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.280 So yeah, it is. It's an astounding thing. And yet 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:07.040 everything that like the research that really, like I said, 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:10.880 started to take off in earnest in the nineties has 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.160 shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of doing that. 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:17.760 The answer is, yes, yes, you can do that, You 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:21.240 totally could do that, but that we don't necessarily fully 0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:25.840 understand how to. And yet there's a lot of evidence 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:30.280 also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to do that. Yeah. 0:12:30.280 --> 0:12:33.240 And you know, we'll get into religiosity of it a 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:37.160 bit more in detail later, but all religions talk a 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.920 lot about forgiveness. There's you know, a pretty famous story 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.280 in the Bible where Peter said to Jesus, lord how 0:12:44.280 --> 0:12:46.680 many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:47.800 sends against me up. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:48.600 To seven times? 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.240 And Jesus said, I tell you not seven times, but 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.559 seventy times seven. And Peter said so four hundred and 0:12:55.640 --> 0:13:01.040 ninety times, and Jesus said, oh, Peter, are always so literal. Yeah, 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:02.960 that one's pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu, 0:13:03.520 --> 0:13:06.360 you can read the Buddhists talk about it. Like everyone, 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:11.320 every religion talks about. Forgiveness is kind of a maybe 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.880 a cornerstone of the religion in some cases, so. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.800 Much so that when science started looking into forgiveness and 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:25.560 just trying to figure it out, generally people is just 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.760 presumed forgiveness was under the realm and the domain of religion. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.720 That's where that's where you went for answers about forgiveness. 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.920 And science said, oh, we we can top that. Well, 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.760 surely we can beat that four hundred and ninety number. 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.840 And that's what they've said about doing Yeah. 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:46.000 I mean, Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's like one of 0:13:46.000 --> 0:13:48.320 the few things Jesus said on the cross. According to 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:52.360 the Bible, they know not what they do, like forgive 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:53.520 them for they know not what they do. 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.200 Right. And like you said, it's not just Christianity. Although 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:03.319 Christianity gets all the all the accolades for forgiveness, Jainism 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:05.760 is a big one. There's a there's a kind of 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.840 a mantra from Jainism that says, I grant forgiveness to 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:12.319 all living beings. They all living beings, grant me forgiveness. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:15.840 My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is 0:14:15.920 --> 0:14:20.360 totally non existent. And that's I mean, when you look 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.920 at that, especially if you're not a Janist, you're you're like, wow, 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:27.960 how would you ever? How would you ever reach that level? 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:29.840 And I think the point is it's like you never 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:31.960 reach that level. It's an ideal, a goal that you 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.880 try to achieve, probably on a daily basis if you're 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.680 a Janis, but it's certainly over a lifetime, you know. Yeah. 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.320 And I'd like to read this again, not to pile 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.880 on the religious stuff, but the Hindu one really spoke 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:44.120 to me. 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:45.080 Uh. 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:47.960 This one part in the middle says what can a 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:51.400 wicked person do? And to him or into one who 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:54.840 carries the saber of forgiveness in his hand? And that 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:58.360 one really speaks to me in that it's the it's 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:02.800 a powerful tool to forgive, and it's for you as 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.680 the forgiver. I think a lot of times people think 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:08.440 it can clear the conscious of someone who's done something wrong. 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.800 I guess that certainly happens, But to me, it's really 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:16.400 about it's a powerful weapon you have to regain your 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:18.400 own strength as a human. 0:15:19.160 --> 0:15:22.480 Yes, that seems to be the bulk of what psychology 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.640 is coming up with as far as studying forgiveness goes 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.720 that it's really the person who is who has been wronged. 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:35.000 That's what forgiveness is more about. That's the psychological aspect 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:39.240 of it. Like we said, it's a multidisciplinary investigation, and 0:15:39.280 --> 0:15:42.640 so you've got evolutionary biologists who like, that's really great psychology, 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.200 but we found a different reason for forgiveness and it 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:50.280 doesn't quite fit that mold. And then like the medical 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:53.880 field says, no, it's even better than that. You can 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:58.720 actually like improve your health by genuinely forgiving somebody. So 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:01.080 there's all these different inputs that are coming together to 0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.960 create this really like complex, contextualized picture of what forgiveness 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:07.760 is and what it does for us and why we 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.200 have it. That's right. I think it's a great setup. 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.120 I agree, you want to take a break, I might 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.200 just not come back and feel so good about that. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.320 No, we have to finish. We got to complete, all right. 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.440 We'll be back in a minute to talk about what 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.200 I think is probably the most interesting part of this 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:25.880 is the evolutionary aspect. 0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:26.520 Right after this. 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:44.120 Learn and stuff with Joshua job stuff you shine up. 0:16:58.360 --> 0:17:03.600 So this was this, this is the correct forgiveness? Was 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:04.680 the Dave Ruse joint. 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:07.720 Oh okay, I thought this was Livia. So yeah, thanks 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.199 to Dave for this. He did a great job with 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:13.359 this research. But the evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.960 interesting to me because I think that a lot of 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:20.440 people assume that it's what Dave calls a higher virtue, 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.280 like you know is took took in the gang. We're 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:29.199 so base as you know, kind of primitive thinkers, is 0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:32.159 that they didn't have the capacity forgive. They would they 0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:34.679 would smite somebody if if someone punched, took took in 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.520 the face, took, took punch back, or someone attacked took took, took, 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.520 took attack back, maybe even harder. And there is quite 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:46.280 a bit of evidence that they're not mutually exclusive and 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.280 that that fighting back and forgiving both have a big 0:17:50.359 --> 0:17:52.320 evolutionary advantage. 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:56.240 Yeah, So the big evolutionary advantage of revenge is if 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.800 you live in a social group and somebody takes advantage 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:01.879 of you, or they hit you, or they steal your 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:05.120 food or whatever, if you don't do something to right 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:08.200 that wrong, you're broadcasting to the rest of the group 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.360 that you are open for exploitation. And that's not good 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.000 for you. It's also not good for the chances that 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:18.600 you're going to pass along your genes, and so under 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.959 the auspices of natural selection, it makes sense for you 0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:24.280 to hit that person that steals your food or who 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.320 hits you, And that's revenge, and revenge forms that function 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:30.760 in a social group. It says to everybody. It signals 0:18:30.760 --> 0:18:33.159 to the rest of the group you are not to 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.239 be messed with. This guy tried it, and look what 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.640 happened to him. Nobody else should try that. Go pick 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.359 on somebody else. And there's actually been studies that have 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:45.520 showed that not just among apes and primates, but among 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:50.639 human cultures, revenge is found pretty much universally. And I 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:53.800 saw a study Chuck that said that the mere presence 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.080 of a person a third party who's witnessing an argument 0:18:57.480 --> 0:18:59.840 increases the chances that the argument is going to come 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.879 to blows because you're signaling to the rest of the 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.560 group and in this case, just that third person you 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.200 are not to be messed with. That That's the purpose 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.960 of revenge is to broadcast that signal. 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:15.760 Yeah, I mean, I would say that any kind of dumb, 0:19:16.680 --> 0:19:19.840 drunk bar fight, half of it is the fact that 0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:22.720 someone didn't want to back down in front of other people. 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:26.400 Sure, you know more than have totally. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.639 And that if those two guys were just in an 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:30.840 alley somewhere, they may just hug it out. 0:19:31.560 --> 0:19:34.840 Yeah, probably not, but you never know. It's possible, or 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.080 they might talk it out at least. 0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.879 Yeah, or disagree that it's domb and leave. Yes, but 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.199 you talked about studies in the animal world. There's a 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:50.399 primatologist name Franz Deval who looked at wild chimps recorded 0:19:51.160 --> 0:19:55.200 three hundred and fifty encounters aggressive encounters between these gymps 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:58.879 and then what happened afterward, And in fifty one percent 0:19:58.880 --> 0:20:02.960 of these encounters, the chimps would literally kind of kiss 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:06.239 and make up and touch each other and embrace each 0:20:06.280 --> 0:20:08.840 other after a fight. We've seen the same thing in 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:13.960 bonabos and great apes. There's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats. 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.879 Even hyenas have shown traits of forgiveness. So it's not ubiquitous, 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.959 but it is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting 0:20:22.000 --> 0:20:23.719 and then animals making up with one another. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.320 Right, So, I mean, the revenge one's pretty easy to understand, 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:29.399 but then you're like, okay, well, why would there be 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.159 the making up part? But that also ties into the 0:20:32.160 --> 0:20:36.440 fact that these same animals are also living in social 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.879 tight knit social groups, and so you have a limited 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.680 amount of people that you can possibly have a dispute 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:46.199 or a feud with, and if you're not working together 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:52.280 cooperatively in that sense, also your chances of survival are decreased. 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:58.120 So what makes sense is what's called the valuable relationship hypothesis, 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.960 which says, if somebody hits you, you should hit them back, 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:04.520 but then after that you should make up with them. 0:21:04.520 --> 0:21:06.640 So you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with. 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.399 But then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that 0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.840 you depend on to help your survival in the social group. 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:18.640 You're repairing it, and then you guys can move forward. 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:24.840 And that that is how revenge and forgiveness are basically 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:26.760 two sides of the same coin, or at least work 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:31.400 in conjunction with one another to keep the group functioning 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:32.920 at its best right. 0:21:33.600 --> 0:21:36.760 And that kind of dovetails with a second part of 0:21:36.760 --> 0:21:40.720 that thing, which is called negative reciprocity, which is if 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:47.359 someone hits Tiktook and Tiktook goes c razy and just 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.119 starts wailing on the other person who just slapped him 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:53.240 in the face. Yeah, that's not good either, because everyone's 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:57.320 going to go, whoa Tiktook. I'm not sure I trust 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:00.840 him now. He's definitely burned that bridge for between him 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.080 and the other guy. And none of this is very good. 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:08.120 So what they found is negative reciprocity. If you if 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:12.040 someone smites you, you smite them back the same amount 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.159 and then forgive them. Like if someone takes off their 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:19.800 glove and slaps you across the face, you don't kick 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:22.240 them between the legs and then wail on their face. 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:24.960 You slap them back with your glove, and then you 0:22:25.000 --> 0:22:28.199 talk about forgiving one another. And everyone sees that you 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.479 can work with people, You can you can stand your ground, 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.160 but you can also forgive and work with people, which 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.560 means you're valuable to the group and you're valuable to 0:22:36.560 --> 0:22:37.080 have around. 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:39.760 Yeah, and so kind of tie it into what you 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:43.159 were saying earlier about you know how, there's this idea 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:46.960 that you know, revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:49.760 is a higher instinct, rather than realizing that they're both 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:55.200 pretty basic instincts for among the animal kingdom. Is there's 0:22:55.200 --> 0:23:00.359 this idea that in human society, we have created like 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:05.480 these social institutions in these contexts so that the individual 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:09.560 doesn't have to carry out revenge and then forgiveness, that 0:23:09.600 --> 0:23:12.760 they can just focus on forgiveness as long as those 0:23:12.800 --> 0:23:15.680 social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as 0:23:15.760 --> 0:23:19.040 long as there is like a pursuit of justice, and 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:22.160 you can rely on the idea that the person who 0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:24.879 transgressed against you by killing your father is going to 0:23:24.880 --> 0:23:27.720 be caught and punished and sentenced to jail. You don't 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:31.040 have to worry about revenge. It's being conducted for you, 0:23:31.240 --> 0:23:34.520 and then you, the individual in this well functioning society, 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:37.080 can just focus on whether you want to forgive or not, 0:23:37.320 --> 0:23:40.200 and that that's that kind of higher and lower echelon. 0:23:40.640 --> 0:23:44.800 Because in the opposite situation where there isn't like a 0:23:44.840 --> 0:23:47.200 good sense of justice, where it does seem like if 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:49.480 you want justice you have to go seek it out yourself, 0:23:49.680 --> 0:23:53.560 revenge is going to be much more exercised, much more 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:56.040 frequently than forgiveness. 0:23:55.440 --> 0:23:59.000 Will Yeah, which says a lot about the United States 0:23:59.119 --> 0:24:02.359 these days, you know. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:04.000 to be cynical even, I mean, that's just sort of 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:06.280