Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and I thought for my
Speaker 1: picks this year, I would kick off twenty twenty six
Speaker 1: with a very sweet, moving, and also eye opening episode
Speaker 1: on forgiveness. It turns out all of us have the
Speaker 1: capacity to forgive, but that's not always the best course
Speaker 1: of action for any given circumstance. This episode also has
Speaker 1: a lot of really great stories of amazing acts of
Speaker 1: forgiveness by people who forgave others against all odds. It's
Speaker 1: a good episode and I hope you enjoy it, and
Speaker 1: I hope your year is going wonderfully so far.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: Hey, you, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you
Speaker 1: should know. Some philosophical waxing is going to happen in
Speaker 1: this one. I think it's inevitable. Pull Chuck, that's right,
Speaker 1: and Don Henley songs Oh yeah, that's a good one too,
Speaker 1: Heart of the Matter. Mm hmm. You like it sure,
Speaker 1: all right? That part where he's like, I'm learning to
Speaker 1: live with that, dude. No, it stirs my soul every time. Forgiveness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you'd have to be dead inside to not be stirred
Speaker 1: by that part. I agree, it's good, good song, but
Speaker 1: he really kind of nails it in that because he's
Speaker 1: talking about forgiveness and the heart of the matter. Sure,
Speaker 1: and he's he wants forgiveness, he needs forgiveness, even if
Speaker 1: like it's the end of the relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even if she doesn't love him anymore.
Speaker 1: Sure. So, on the one hand, that is a certain
Speaker 1: kind of forgiveness that an individual or person can that's
Speaker 1: a path someone can set down. But there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of research starting starting in the very beginning stages
Speaker 1: at the middle of the twentieth but really picking up
Speaker 1: in the nineties, research into forgiveness, like legitimate scientific research,
Speaker 1: and it's a multidisciplinary thing because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different fields disciplines, sure, that have said, hey, this actually,
Speaker 1: this is something we can study and measure and produce
Speaker 1: articles and work on. And they have, They've produced some
Speaker 1: really good, legitimate work. But what most of them have
Speaker 1: been focused on is not the Don Henley position of
Speaker 1: somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to
Speaker 1: feel better, who needs forgiveness, yeah, but rather the person
Speaker 1: doing the forgiving the person who has originally transgressed against,
Speaker 1: not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of
Speaker 1: the research has been done on forgiveness. Right.
Speaker 2: Don Henley is a rock star, so he's writing a
Speaker 2: song about wanting to be forgiven for a foursome he
Speaker 2: had in Saint Paul backstage. Sure, even if you don't
Speaker 2: love me anymore, can you forgive me that?
Speaker 1: You know? Can you blame a guy? Is what he's saying. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's probably exactly what that song is about.
Speaker 1: Now that you mentioned that's the subtext. So I think
Speaker 1: we should start by pointing out something about forgiveness. Is
Speaker 1: that a lot of people there's a lot of stories
Speaker 1: about people not forgiving. We call it revenge, and people
Speaker 1: love revenge, you know, Like think about the revenge movie
Speaker 1: genre and how many entries there are pretty great? Like
Speaker 1: have you ever seen I Saw the Devil? Yeah? Have
Speaker 1: you ever seen Old Boy? Yeah? Have you ever seen
Speaker 1: Death Becomes Her? Yeah? Have you ever seen She Devil? Nope?
Speaker 1: Oh you haven't. With Roseanne Barr and Ed Bigley and
Speaker 1: Mary Movie, yes, all of them great revenge movies. Can
Speaker 1: I shout out one of my favorites? Yeah, please do.
Speaker 2: Like legitimately, it's kind of a smaller indie movie called
Speaker 2: Blue Ruin.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I saw that one.
Speaker 2: Great great revenge movie. If you're into revenge movies and
Speaker 2: I am, I enjoy it. There's a cap arsis involved
Speaker 2: because I'm a big forgiver, So I think I like
Speaker 2: seeing movies where revenge happens.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge,
Speaker 1: because they're virtually two sides of the same coin, and
Speaker 1: they really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible
Speaker 1: when you see it laid out, but you might not
Speaker 1: necessarily be walking around thinking about. But on the other side,
Speaker 1: if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of
Speaker 1: them were produced by a megachurch somewhere in the South.
Speaker 1: Or you've got Magnolia and then the Fisher King are
Speaker 1: like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness.
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, because I think there's a fine
Speaker 2: line sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories.
Speaker 1: Okay, they can kind of go hand in hand. There
Speaker 1: are plenty of redemption stories. Okay, like what what redemption stories? Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's hear it. Oh, I mean.
Speaker 2: Hoosiers one of the great sports redemption movies.
Speaker 1: Okay, I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption.
Speaker 2: Now, former alcoholic coach who who was not working because
Speaker 2: of some bad deeds gets redeemed by looking a team
Speaker 2: to a championship. Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father.
Speaker 1: Wait a minute, was was Gene Hackman on the road
Speaker 1: to redemption? I thought he came in and basically got
Speaker 1: Dennis Hopper redeemed a double redemption. He was getting redeemed
Speaker 1: as well. All right, Okay, okay, okay, So plenty.
Speaker 2: Of redemption stories, and I think there's a lot of
Speaker 2: movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness and really weighty,
Speaker 2: heavy ways, like these true stories that you hear about
Speaker 2: these awful things that happen, whether a family member is
Speaker 2: accidentally killed by someone or murdered by someone, like, there's
Speaker 2: a lot of that stuff in movies.
Speaker 1: Okay. So my thesis is this, and this is strictly
Speaker 1: me editorializing here, I think there's some validity to it,
Speaker 1: and that is that the reason why it's much easier
Speaker 1: to name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our
Speaker 1: baser instincts. It makes sense, it's universally understood. And like
Speaker 1: you said, you even consider yourself a big time forgiver,
Speaker 1: and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you.
Speaker 1: There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie. Yep,
Speaker 1: a movie about forgiveness, it's just more complicated, it's harder.
Speaker 1: We're not as good and we're not as automatically adept
Speaker 1: at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. That's why
Speaker 1: I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's not to
Speaker 1: say that we're not moved by it, because I think
Speaker 1: if you hear whenever you hear real life stories of forgiveness,
Speaker 1: they just bowl you over. Oh yeah, even when you
Speaker 1: step back and think about like what the person's actually doing,
Speaker 1: you're like, yes, legitimately, anybody could do what they just did.
Speaker 1: It's it's akin to hearing somebody's solo climbing Mount Everest
Speaker 1: or something like that. It's it makes the news literally
Speaker 1: when somebody forgives in like a really deep way that
Speaker 1: the average person might.
Speaker 2: Not, yeah, like a big time transgression. A lot of
Speaker 2: times you'll hear of a courtroom scene where someone has
Speaker 2: forgiven the person who like murdered their relative or loved
Speaker 2: one or something, and that man, that stuff is powerful.
Speaker 2: You're right every time you see these stories. You dug
Speaker 2: up this one story from Berkeley the Greater Good magazine
Speaker 2: Science Based Insights for a Meaningful Life out of UC
Speaker 2: Berkeley of this woman who was a nurse's aide who
Speaker 2: hit a guy. She had been drinking hit a guy
Speaker 2: in her car. He went through the windshield and was
Speaker 2: stuck there, and she was so impaired she didn't realize
Speaker 2: it for a while. Eventually realized that got out of
Speaker 2: the car, could not get the guy out, who was
Speaker 2: still alive, mind you, and so drove home and parked
Speaker 2: her car in the garage to let this guy slowly
Speaker 2: die yeah, in her garage.
Speaker 1: Over the course of a couple of days, and like
Speaker 1: she sobered up, would go out and chuck on him
Speaker 1: once in a while, but refused to call for help
Speaker 1: because she was too concerned about getting in trouble, so
Speaker 1: instead she let him die, had a couple friends come
Speaker 1: help her hide the body, move the body, and then
Speaker 1: actually got found out later on because four months later
Speaker 1: she was at a party and she joked about it
Speaker 1: to an acquaintance who went and told the cops, and
Speaker 1: this woman ended up getting fifty years in pre that's
Speaker 1: a horrible story, Like that's one of the worst things
Speaker 1: that a human being could possibly do. There were so
Speaker 1: many opportunities for this woman to save this man's life.
Speaker 1: And by the way, everyone involved in that court case
Speaker 1: who had a medical degree said that had she called
Speaker 1: the cops, the fire department taken the guy to the hospital,
Speaker 1: he almost certainly would have survived those injuries. But given
Speaker 1: that she didn't for days get him medical aid, he
Speaker 1: finally did succumb to them, but he probably would have survived,
Speaker 1: almost certainly would have survived. Like what she did was
Speaker 1: about as horrific as what a person could do and
Speaker 1: just so irresponsible with human life. And she rightfully got
Speaker 1: a fifty year prison sentence for that crime. And yet
Speaker 1: despite how horrific that was, what made news just as
Speaker 1: much as that is that a short time later that
Speaker 1: man's son, the man who was hit and killed publicly
Speaker 1: forgave that woman for killing his father.
Speaker 2: Yes, at the sentencing said quote, there's no winners in
Speaker 2: a case like this. Just as we all lost Greg,
Speaker 2: you all will be losing your daughter to her family.
Speaker 2: I still want to extend my forgiveness to Chante Mallard
Speaker 2: was her name, and let her know that the Mallard
Speaker 2: family is in my prayers. And this is the kind
Speaker 2: of stuff, like you said, that makes the news where
Speaker 2: I think it hits everybody because it makes everybody stop
Speaker 2: for a second and.
Speaker 1: Say, could I do that? Yes?
Speaker 2: Could I reach that point of forgiveness? And that's a
Speaker 2: big weighty question because there's all kinds of forgiveness. There's
Speaker 2: a couple partners together who get in a fight and
Speaker 2: someone says they're sorry for doing a certain thing, and
Speaker 2: they're forgiven or not. There are situations at work where
Speaker 2: people are forgiven. There are friends who maybe betray you
Speaker 2: by like cheating on on somebody with someone. I had
Speaker 2: a situation like that where I had a former friend
Speaker 2: I felt like cheated with my barely ex girlfriend and
Speaker 2: I spent quite a few years being upset about that
Speaker 2: and then forgave him. And it's a powerful thing. So
Speaker 2: there's like levels. But when you get to this kind
Speaker 2: of thing where someone caused the death of a loved
Speaker 2: one and then even laughed about it, like to be
Speaker 2: able to forgive like that is just that's next level.
Speaker 1: It is. It is so much so, Chuck, that a
Speaker 1: group of convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison
Speaker 1: heard about this, and I guess got in touch with
Speaker 1: one another and raised funds and got a ten thousand
Speaker 1: dollars scholarship together, Wow, for Brandon Biggs to go to college.
Speaker 1: The convicted murderer sent the kid to college because this
Speaker 1: very generous act of public forgiveness of his own father's murderer.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it is. It's an astounding thing. And yet
Speaker 1: everything that like the research that really, like I said,
Speaker 1: started to take off in earnest in the nineties has
Speaker 1: shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of doing that.
Speaker 1: The answer is, yes, yes, you can do that, You
Speaker 1: totally could do that, but that we don't necessarily fully
Speaker 1: understand how to. And yet there's a lot of evidence
Speaker 1: also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to do that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And you know, we'll get into religiosity of it a
Speaker 2: bit more in detail later, but all religions talk a
Speaker 2: lot about forgiveness. There's you know, a pretty famous story
Speaker 2: in the Bible where Peter said to Jesus, lord how
Speaker 2: many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who
Speaker 2: sends against me up.
Speaker 1: To seven times?
Speaker 2: And Jesus said, I tell you not seven times, but
Speaker 2: seventy times seven. And Peter said so four hundred and
Speaker 2: ninety times, and Jesus said, oh, Peter, are always so literal. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that one's pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu,
Speaker 2: you can read the Buddhists talk about it. Like everyone,
Speaker 2: every religion talks about. Forgiveness is kind of a maybe
Speaker 2: a cornerstone of the religion in some cases, so.
Speaker 1: Much so that when science started looking into forgiveness and
Speaker 1: just trying to figure it out, generally people is just
Speaker 1: presumed forgiveness was under the realm and the domain of religion.
Speaker 1: That's where that's where you went for answers about forgiveness.
Speaker 1: And science said, oh, we we can top that. Well,
Speaker 1: surely we can beat that four hundred and ninety number.
Speaker 1: And that's what they've said about doing Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean, Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's like one of
Speaker 2: the few things Jesus said on the cross. According to
Speaker 2: the Bible, they know not what they do, like forgive
Speaker 2: them for they know not what they do.
Speaker 1: Right. And like you said, it's not just Christianity. Although
Speaker 1: Christianity gets all the all the accolades for forgiveness, Jainism
Speaker 1: is a big one. There's a there's a kind of
Speaker 1: a mantra from Jainism that says, I grant forgiveness to
Speaker 1: all living beings. They all living beings, grant me forgiveness.
Speaker 1: My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is
Speaker 1: totally non existent. And that's I mean, when you look
Speaker 1: at that, especially if you're not a Janist, you're you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: how would you ever? How would you ever reach that level?
Speaker 1: And I think the point is it's like you never
Speaker 1: reach that level. It's an ideal, a goal that you
Speaker 1: try to achieve, probably on a daily basis if you're
Speaker 1: a Janis, but it's certainly over a lifetime, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I'd like to read this again, not to pile
Speaker 2: on the religious stuff, but the Hindu one really spoke
Speaker 2: to me.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: This one part in the middle says what can a
Speaker 2: wicked person do? And to him or into one who
Speaker 2: carries the saber of forgiveness in his hand? And that
Speaker 2: one really speaks to me in that it's the it's
Speaker 2: a powerful tool to forgive, and it's for you as
Speaker 2: the forgiver. I think a lot of times people think
Speaker 2: it can clear the conscious of someone who's done something wrong.
Speaker 2: I guess that certainly happens, But to me, it's really
Speaker 2: about it's a powerful weapon you have to regain your
Speaker 2: own strength as a human.
Speaker 1: Yes, that seems to be the bulk of what psychology
Speaker 1: is coming up with as far as studying forgiveness goes
Speaker 1: that it's really the person who is who has been wronged.
Speaker 1: That's what forgiveness is more about. That's the psychological aspect
Speaker 1: of it. Like we said, it's a multidisciplinary investigation, and
Speaker 1: so you've got evolutionary biologists who like, that's really great psychology,
Speaker 1: but we found a different reason for forgiveness and it
Speaker 1: doesn't quite fit that mold. And then like the medical
Speaker 1: field says, no, it's even better than that. You can
Speaker 1: actually like improve your health by genuinely forgiving somebody. So
Speaker 1: there's all these different inputs that are coming together to
Speaker 1: create this really like complex, contextualized picture of what forgiveness
Speaker 1: is and what it does for us and why we
Speaker 1: have it. That's right. I think it's a great setup.
Speaker 2: I agree, you want to take a break, I might
Speaker 2: just not come back and feel so good about that.
Speaker 1: No, we have to finish. We got to complete, all right.
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute to talk about what
Speaker 2: I think is probably the most interesting part of this
Speaker 2: is the evolutionary aspect.
Speaker 1: Right after this.
Speaker 3: Learn and stuff with Joshua job stuff you shine up.
Speaker 1: So this was this, this is the correct forgiveness? Was
Speaker 1: the Dave Ruse joint.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, I thought this was Livia. So yeah, thanks
Speaker 2: to Dave for this. He did a great job with
Speaker 2: this research. But the evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super
Speaker 2: interesting to me because I think that a lot of
Speaker 2: people assume that it's what Dave calls a higher virtue,
Speaker 2: like you know is took took in the gang. We're
Speaker 2: so base as you know, kind of primitive thinkers, is
Speaker 2: that they didn't have the capacity forgive. They would they
Speaker 2: would smite somebody if if someone punched, took took in
Speaker 2: the face, took, took punch back, or someone attacked took took, took,
Speaker 2: took attack back, maybe even harder. And there is quite
Speaker 2: a bit of evidence that they're not mutually exclusive and
Speaker 2: that that fighting back and forgiving both have a big
Speaker 2: evolutionary advantage.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the big evolutionary advantage of revenge is if
Speaker 1: you live in a social group and somebody takes advantage
Speaker 1: of you, or they hit you, or they steal your
Speaker 1: food or whatever, if you don't do something to right
Speaker 1: that wrong, you're broadcasting to the rest of the group
Speaker 1: that you are open for exploitation. And that's not good
Speaker 1: for you. It's also not good for the chances that
Speaker 1: you're going to pass along your genes, and so under
Speaker 1: the auspices of natural selection, it makes sense for you
Speaker 1: to hit that person that steals your food or who
Speaker 1: hits you, And that's revenge, and revenge forms that function
Speaker 1: in a social group. It says to everybody. It signals
Speaker 1: to the rest of the group you are not to
Speaker 1: be messed with. This guy tried it, and look what
Speaker 1: happened to him. Nobody else should try that. Go pick
Speaker 1: on somebody else. And there's actually been studies that have
Speaker 1: showed that not just among apes and primates, but among
Speaker 1: human cultures, revenge is found pretty much universally. And I
Speaker 1: saw a study Chuck that said that the mere presence
Speaker 1: of a person a third party who's witnessing an argument
Speaker 1: increases the chances that the argument is going to come
Speaker 1: to blows because you're signaling to the rest of the
Speaker 1: group and in this case, just that third person you
Speaker 1: are not to be messed with. That That's the purpose
Speaker 1: of revenge is to broadcast that signal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I would say that any kind of dumb,
Speaker 2: drunk bar fight, half of it is the fact that
Speaker 2: someone didn't want to back down in front of other people.
Speaker 1: Sure, you know more than have totally.
Speaker 2: And that if those two guys were just in an
Speaker 2: alley somewhere, they may just hug it out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not, but you never know. It's possible, or
Speaker 1: they might talk it out at least.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or disagree that it's domb and leave. Yes, but
Speaker 2: you talked about studies in the animal world. There's a
Speaker 2: primatologist name Franz Deval who looked at wild chimps recorded
Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty encounters aggressive encounters between these gymps
Speaker 2: and then what happened afterward, And in fifty one percent
Speaker 2: of these encounters, the chimps would literally kind of kiss
Speaker 2: and make up and touch each other and embrace each
Speaker 2: other after a fight. We've seen the same thing in
Speaker 2: bonabos and great apes. There's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats.
Speaker 2: Even hyenas have shown traits of forgiveness. So it's not ubiquitous,
Speaker 2: but it is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting
Speaker 2: and then animals making up with one another.
Speaker 1: Right, So, I mean, the revenge one's pretty easy to understand,
Speaker 1: but then you're like, okay, well, why would there be
Speaker 1: the making up part? But that also ties into the
Speaker 1: fact that these same animals are also living in social
Speaker 1: tight knit social groups, and so you have a limited
Speaker 1: amount of people that you can possibly have a dispute
Speaker 1: or a feud with, and if you're not working together
Speaker 1: cooperatively in that sense, also your chances of survival are decreased.
Speaker 1: So what makes sense is what's called the valuable relationship hypothesis,
Speaker 1: which says, if somebody hits you, you should hit them back,
Speaker 1: but then after that you should make up with them.
Speaker 1: So you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with.
Speaker 1: But then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that
Speaker 1: you depend on to help your survival in the social group.
Speaker 1: You're repairing it, and then you guys can move forward.
Speaker 1: And that that is how revenge and forgiveness are basically
Speaker 1: two sides of the same coin, or at least work
Speaker 1: in conjunction with one another to keep the group functioning
Speaker 1: at its best right.
Speaker 2: And that kind of dovetails with a second part of
Speaker 2: that thing, which is called negative reciprocity, which is if
Speaker 2: someone hits Tiktook and Tiktook goes c razy and just
Speaker 2: starts wailing on the other person who just slapped him
Speaker 2: in the face. Yeah, that's not good either, because everyone's
Speaker 2: going to go, whoa Tiktook. I'm not sure I trust
Speaker 2: him now. He's definitely burned that bridge for between him
Speaker 2: and the other guy. And none of this is very good.
Speaker 2: So what they found is negative reciprocity. If you if
Speaker 2: someone smites you, you smite them back the same amount
Speaker 2: and then forgive them. Like if someone takes off their
Speaker 2: glove and slaps you across the face, you don't kick
Speaker 2: them between the legs and then wail on their face.
Speaker 2: You slap them back with your glove, and then you
Speaker 2: talk about forgiving one another. And everyone sees that you
Speaker 2: can work with people, You can you can stand your ground,
Speaker 2: but you can also forgive and work with people, which
Speaker 2: means you're valuable to the group and you're valuable to
Speaker 2: have around.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so kind of tie it into what you
Speaker 1: were saying earlier about you know how, there's this idea
Speaker 1: that you know, revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness
Speaker 1: is a higher instinct, rather than realizing that they're both
Speaker 1: pretty basic instincts for among the animal kingdom. Is there's
Speaker 1: this idea that in human society, we have created like
Speaker 1: these social institutions in these contexts so that the individual
Speaker 1: doesn't have to carry out revenge and then forgiveness, that
Speaker 1: they can just focus on forgiveness as long as those
Speaker 1: social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as
Speaker 1: long as there is like a pursuit of justice, and
Speaker 1: you can rely on the idea that the person who
Speaker 1: transgressed against you by killing your father is going to
Speaker 1: be caught and punished and sentenced to jail. You don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about revenge. It's being conducted for you,
Speaker 1: and then you, the individual in this well functioning society,
Speaker 1: can just focus on whether you want to forgive or not,
Speaker 1: and that that's that kind of higher and lower echelon.
Speaker 1: Because in the opposite situation where there isn't like a
Speaker 1: good sense of justice, where it does seem like if
Speaker 1: you want justice you have to go seek it out yourself,
Speaker 1: revenge is going to be much more exercised, much more
Speaker 1: frequently than forgiveness.
Speaker 2: Will Yeah, which says a lot about the United States
Speaker 2: these days, you know. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying
Speaker 2: to be cynical even, I mean, that's just sort of
Speaker 2: what we see around us. I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people feel like the sense of justice in this country
Speaker 2: is pretty skewed, and that's why you might see the
Speaker 2: increases in things like vigilanteism or revenge. And I don't
Speaker 2: know what societies you look to to do a study
Speaker 2: like that. I'm kind of curious on the ones that
Speaker 2: are very well policed and the justice is sort of
Speaker 2: fair and equal. But I think that's one of the
Speaker 2: problems in the in the States these days, for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 2: without getting two far down that rabbit.
Speaker 1: Hole, but also even you know, it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: eye opening to me because I've never really thought about
Speaker 1: the courts and the justice system is set up to
Speaker 1: help individuals move along. Yeah, it should do. You just
Speaker 1: think of it as punishment. It's a system for punishment,
Speaker 1: not for redemption necessarily, but it's also to help the victims.
Speaker 1: I just never saw it that before.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about that guy in court,
Speaker 2: and a lot of times you'll hear the courtroom forgiveness.
Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll also hear the opposite, and you hear the
Speaker 2: courtroom like, I will never forgive you for what you
Speaker 2: did to me, And I think not always, but it
Speaker 2: seems to be a lot of time tied to whether
Speaker 2: the transgressor has really acknowledged what they've done and sought
Speaker 2: forgiveness and said that's the worst thing I've ever done
Speaker 2: in my life, and I don't think you should ever
Speaker 2: forgive me. Like it's an interesting sort of dance that
Speaker 2: happens there because it's not a one to one thing.
Speaker 2: It's not like every time a bad criminal that does
Speaker 2: something really asks for forgiveness and says it was a
Speaker 2: terrible thing, the other person forgives. So sometimes the person
Speaker 2: could laugh it off like this lady did and not
Speaker 2: ask for forgiveness. Any other person could forgive, which I
Speaker 2: think goes back to the notion that forgiveness comes from
Speaker 2: the forgiver.
Speaker 1: Right, that it's really about the person who's been wrong too.
Speaker 1: It's about and so yeah, now we've reached the kind
Speaker 1: of psychologies domain over the concept of forgiveness, which is
Speaker 1: that it's about you, the individual who suffered a wrong,
Speaker 1: releasing the pain and the anger and the resentment and
Speaker 1: all the negative feelings that you're experiencing so that you
Speaker 1: can feel better. And that it doesn't matter whether the
Speaker 1: other person is asking for forgiveness, and that it doesn't
Speaker 1: even matter if the other person deserves forgiveness or not.
Speaker 1: That genuine forgiveness psychologically speaking, according to some psychologists, will
Speaker 1: hear that some disagree, but that genuine, true forgiveness is unconditional,
Speaker 1: that you forgive the person whether they deserve it or not.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is to where the language to me
Speaker 2: is a little I could see people debating this because
Speaker 2: it is forgiveness in a way, but to me, it's
Speaker 2: almost more of just a letting go. Yeah, I agree
Speaker 2: with you, of an anger, it's not. It's so tricky
Speaker 2: with the definition because when you think of forgiveness, you
Speaker 2: think I'm saying and it's really not what it is.
Speaker 2: What you're not saying is it's okay what you did. Okay,
Speaker 2: so yes, you know what I mean. That's not what
Speaker 2: That's not a key component of forgiveness.
Speaker 1: No, No, it's not. You're that's and that's a very
Speaker 1: confusing thing for a lot of people too. Is that
Speaker 1: the idea that if you forgive somebody, you're you're you're
Speaker 1: condoning their behavior. You're saying it's okay what they do.
Speaker 1: That's not the point of forgiveness. From from what psychologists
Speaker 1: who research this are coming up with. They're saying, No,
Speaker 1: what you're doing when you forgive somebody is to say,
Speaker 1: I know what you did, you wronged me, and I
Speaker 1: can live with that. It doesn't make it any better. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make it any better. It doesn't excuse what
Speaker 1: you did, right, and it does it certainly doesn't excuse
Speaker 1: future repeated instances of what you just did. But it's saying, like,
Speaker 1: I'm willing to let go of the I have associated
Speaker 1: with this act you did against me, that you this wrong,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to move forward with my life, and
Speaker 1: in doing that, I'm willing to let you move forward
Speaker 1: as well. Well.
Speaker 2: Or I think sometimes in a case like this, that
Speaker 2: kind of forgiveness can make the transgressor suffer worse sometimes yeah,
Speaker 2: just a guilt, Yeah, and they want to be admonished
Speaker 2: and hated as part of a punishment. But you know,
Speaker 2: ts you know, because again, forgiveness is not for you,
Speaker 2: it's for the person. Dave even makes a great point
Speaker 2: the person being forgiven is secondary or even unnecessary to
Speaker 2: the process, and that's sort of the key. You don't
Speaker 2: even have to tell that person necessarily. We'll get to
Speaker 2: later some kind of like how to forgive. Some people
Speaker 2: say that you should tell someone out loud, like literally
Speaker 2: tell someone, But you don't necessarily have to tell that
Speaker 2: person if it's a situation like this, or even if
Speaker 2: it's like a close personal friend like I think usually
Speaker 2: you do when it's someone you know, because that's a
Speaker 2: part of communicating with one another in a healthy way.
Speaker 2: But if it's the person who who killed your family,
Speaker 2: you don't have to tell them to forgive them, and
Speaker 2: you can still forgive them.
Speaker 1: Yes, So some psychologists define forgiveness, like a full forgiveness
Speaker 1: as including you actually seeking out contact with that person, right,
Speaker 1: and that if you forgive them but don't tell them,
Speaker 1: or you still avoid them afterward, where it's like, hey,
Speaker 1: I forgive you, but good luck with the rest of
Speaker 1: your life. You're not in my life anymore. That to
Speaker 1: some psychologists, not all. Some psychologists say that's not genuine forgiveness.
Speaker 1: That's akin to what you were saying, which is letting
Speaker 1: go of anger and moving on, but not really actually forgiving.
Speaker 1: I still say it's forgiving. I'm not one of the psychologists, sure,
Speaker 1: and it's very much debated, for sure. But then that
Speaker 1: also leads to another point too, that if you forgive somebody,
Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean you forget, and that's not part
Speaker 1: and parcel to it. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. You can forget.
Speaker 1: I'm actually really good at that kind of thing, where
Speaker 1: like I forgive because it just unless it was a
Speaker 1: really huge wrong, it just kind of phased from my
Speaker 1: memory fairly easily, and I don't dwell on it, so
Speaker 1: it can it can go hand in hand. But if
Speaker 1: you've been deeply wrong by somebody where you're actually going
Speaker 1: through the process of forgiving, which we'll talk about, and
Speaker 1: it is a it's a deliberate step that you're taking
Speaker 1: toward finding peace with yourself and your life again, then
Speaker 1: you know very well, what that wrong was, and you're
Speaker 1: not going to forget it, but eventually the aim is
Speaker 1: that you will have divorced the emotional attachment from that
Speaker 1: memory of that wrong to where it becomes akin to
Speaker 1: like a movie you saw once or a trip you
Speaker 1: took once, Like it's not it's just a thing that
Speaker 1: happened in your life, rather than this, this this crisis
Speaker 1: that is sucking up your attention and emotions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like this definition from Fred Luskin, who
Speaker 2: is a psychologist and forgiveness expert for what It's worth,
Speaker 2: director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. And Fred's definition
Speaker 2: is to forgive is to give up all hope for
Speaker 2: a better past, And that really lays it out there
Speaker 2: in this in a very practical sense, that what has
Speaker 2: happened has happened. You may not be there yet in
Speaker 2: your journey to forgiveness or the letting go, but you
Speaker 2: cannot change what happened, no matter how angry you are,
Speaker 2: or how much you want someone to pay for it
Speaker 2: or suffer, or how much revenge you want. So there
Speaker 2: is no better past that's impossible. So giving up hope
Speaker 2: for a better pass, it's sort of a blaque definition,
Speaker 2: but one that I think is pretty instructive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also a realistic definition too if you
Speaker 1: think about it. Because you can't change the past one
Speaker 1: way or another. You can only alter how you let
Speaker 1: the past continue to affect you or not. And the
Speaker 1: other thing I really want to say here right now,
Speaker 1: because it can be confusing for me too when I
Speaker 1: think about forgiveness and anger and stuff like that, is like,
Speaker 1: this is not No one is talking about a something
Speaker 1: like throwing a switch or like, rather than feeling anger,
Speaker 1: you feel forgiveness. That's actually counterproductive, as we'll see. Like
Speaker 1: you like, you can't replace anger with forgiveness. Forgiveness is
Speaker 1: meant to come after anger because you use anger or
Speaker 1: hurt or resentment or whatever your version of that is
Speaker 1: to to to protect and guard your own boundaries. So
Speaker 1: it's unnatural for you to not have some sort of
Speaker 1: negative emotion or negative response to being wronged. But you
Speaker 1: don't want to replace that or try to replace it
Speaker 1: with forgiveness because you may accidentally trip up the process
Speaker 1: and you're not really legitimately feeling forgiveness. You're basically just
Speaker 1: setting yourself up to be wronged again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my deal personally is Emily always talks about what
Speaker 2: a forgiving person I am because I really crave.
Speaker 1: To forgive.
Speaker 2: I don't know, I was about to say crave forgiveness.
Speaker 2: I crave forgiving. I guess it sounds funny, but I
Speaker 2: just all I need is for someone to say they're
Speaker 2: sorry for something, and then it's done. Nine times out
Speaker 2: of ten, that's done for me. And as far as forgetting, like,
Speaker 2: I'm a pretty good forgetter too. I don't know about
Speaker 2: like literally forgetting something, but I definitely look back on
Speaker 2: a lot of relationships, especially with like ex girlfriends that
Speaker 2: were terrible, and go, oh that was so bad in there.
Speaker 1: In that relationship, we.
Speaker 2: Were pretty good, right, Sure, No, we weren't pretty good
Speaker 2: at all. Right, I just have rose colored glasses. And
Speaker 2: I think you and I are both like as podcasting
Speaker 2: partners and family and team good about when we have
Speaker 2: little dust ups for giving one another. If the other
Speaker 2: person likes says they're sorry, like you and I both
Speaker 2: get over that stuf pretty quickly. Yeah, which is yeah,
Speaker 2: it's very key though, you know, like, oh, yeah, you can't.
Speaker 2: Forgiveness is like from the heart if you really if
Speaker 2: you're hanging on to something, then you're not done with
Speaker 2: it yet.
Speaker 1: No, but so and that is so important, Chuck. That's
Speaker 1: important for the individual to remember that if you if
Speaker 1: you are unable to forgive, that means that you're you're
Speaker 1: still hanging on to it. That doesn't mean you'll never forgive,
Speaker 1: And that also doesn't mean you have to hurry up
Speaker 1: and forgive. It means you're still in the process and
Speaker 1: that's reaching the point where you can forgive. It's a
Speaker 1: deliberate choice. From everything I've seen in the research, you
Speaker 1: are making a deliberate choice to forgive somebody. But it's
Speaker 1: not throwing a switch. It's part of a process. And
Speaker 1: during that process, while you're on the road to forgiving
Speaker 1: the person, you're still going to be kind of angry
Speaker 1: at them. Maybe not the whole time, but every once
Speaker 1: in a while it might hit you before you've fully
Speaker 1: forgiven them, and then you're going to be mad about
Speaker 1: it all over again. That's okay, that's normal, that's natural.
Speaker 1: You can't really rush it. You can, but it's going
Speaker 1: to be detrimental. What you want to do is just
Speaker 1: kind of let it play out and have faith that
Speaker 1: if you're on the path of forgiveness, you'll ultimately will
Speaker 1: forgive the person and things will be good again.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and depending on your life and your childhood, like
Speaker 2: you probably have an inclination or an instinct to forgive
Speaker 2: or not based on what you saw, what was modeled.
Speaker 2: There's both nature and nurture involved. But I think people
Speaker 2: generally have an instinct of revenge or forgiveness, and to
Speaker 2: do one of the other that is against that instinct
Speaker 2: requires great effort, especially in the case of forgiveness, because
Speaker 2: you may not be inclined to be a forgiver at all.
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean something's wrong with you. That just means
Speaker 2: that's probably what you saw growing up, or maybe something
Speaker 2: happened to you when you were young that makes it
Speaker 2: harder for you. But it's still possible to get there.
Speaker 2: It just might be tougher.
Speaker 1: Well, what's neat is another thing that the feel of
Speaker 1: psychology is telling us about forgiveness is that it can
Speaker 1: be taught. You can learn to forgive. Even if you
Speaker 1: were raised in an unforgiving environment where you never learned
Speaker 1: how to do that, you can learn how to do it.
Speaker 1: And I say we kind of jump to those to
Speaker 1: how to forgive before we go into physical health because
Speaker 1: I feel like we're kind of there right now. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: let's take a break.
Speaker 2: Okay, let's take our final break, and we'll talk about
Speaker 2: that when we get back, as well as this one
Speaker 2: sort of interesting study i'd like to hit real quick too.
Speaker 3: Okay, learn and start with Joshua job stuff.
Speaker 1: You shine up, all right.
Speaker 2: So there's this study that Dave dug up that I
Speaker 2: thought was interesting.
Speaker 1: I think it's flawed. But Inreme Social psychology, they took
Speaker 1: forty six people. They divided them into two groups.
Speaker 2: One wrote about a time when they had something some
Speaker 2: wrong committed against them, but they forgave. The other wrote
Speaker 2: about a time when they had something wrong committed against them,
Speaker 2: but they did not forgive. And then they told those
Speaker 2: people to stand at the bottom of a hill to
Speaker 2: estimate how steep it was, and also, in a separate
Speaker 2: part of the study, to jump as high as they could.
Speaker 2: The unforgiving group guessed that the incline was five degrees
Speaker 2: steeper on average than the forgiving, and the forgivers jumped
Speaker 2: seven centimeters higher. So the takeaway here is is you
Speaker 2: literally it's more difficult for you. You see the world
Speaker 2: as being more difficult and steeper, and you can't jump
Speaker 2: as high and you can't accomplish as much if you're
Speaker 2: holding on to that all kinds of red flags study,
Speaker 2: especially when it comes to the jumping part. Yeah, but
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting the guessing the incline of
Speaker 2: the hill.
Speaker 1: There may be something to that. Well, yeah, and I
Speaker 1: mean it is backed up, Chuck, by the physical the
Speaker 1: physiological studies of how stress and anger affect you and
Speaker 1: how releasing those can actually help you. There's a lot
Speaker 1: of research that shows that you can suffer from chronic
Speaker 1: stress when you're angry all the time, and that that's
Speaker 1: tied to everything from high blood pressure to diabetes to
Speaker 1: poor cardiovascular outcomes. Just a whole host of chronic conditions
Speaker 1: can be traced back to chronic stress, and chronic stress
Speaker 1: can be traced back to chronic anger. And what they're
Speaker 1: discovering is that forgiveness can actually undo that can actually
Speaker 1: reverse that. There was a study that rated people based
Speaker 1: on the life stresses they'd had, and they apparently recruited
Speaker 1: participants for the study who'd been through a lot of
Speaker 1: stress so much so that they were basically always chronically
Speaker 1: stressed because they have had so many terrible events in
Speaker 1: their life, and there was one group that actually did
Speaker 1: not have poor health compared to the rest of the group.
Speaker 1: And they found that when they gave them a test
Speaker 1: of forgiveness of how forgiving they were generally, they found
Speaker 1: that this subset was actually overall a very forgiving group
Speaker 1: and that that somehow was battling back the chronic stress
Speaker 1: or the effects of chronic stress on their health in life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that makes complete sense. If
Speaker 2: you were someone who really has a problem with forgiving
Speaker 2: and just holds on to these deep, deep resentments against people,
Speaker 2: usually against people very close to you in your family,
Speaker 2: even that just that can't be good for you physically.
Speaker 2: I've seen it happen. I don't want to get too personal,
Speaker 2: but there are people in my family who haven't spoken
Speaker 2: for twenty plus years over dumb stuff that it's like,
Speaker 2: you see that kind of like stubbornness coupled with resentment,
Speaker 2: and it's just, man, that is just no way to live. Yeah,
Speaker 2: no way to live.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was another one that another study that
Speaker 1: Dave turned up that shows that even like in a
Speaker 1: very short term, thinking about holding a grudge can actually
Speaker 1: affect you physiologically by activating your sympathetic nervous system, as
Speaker 1: Dave put to the battle or skidaddle impulse. And they
Speaker 1: found that this these they cut these two groups into
Speaker 1: or they cut the participants into two groups. All of
Speaker 1: the people had to think about some time when they
Speaker 1: were deeply wronged in the past, and then one group
Speaker 1: was taken through an exercise where they learned to forgive
Speaker 1: the person. The other group, this is so mean, was
Speaker 1: encouraged to hold a grudge. They were basically taught, they
Speaker 1: went through an exercise to hold a grudge and be
Speaker 1: angry and resentment was resentful about that. And they found
Speaker 1: that the people who were taught to hold the grudge
Speaker 1: had elevated skin conductance, which meant their nervous system was aroused,
Speaker 1: higher arterial blood pressure, not good. They also had muscle
Speaker 1: tension in the brow area you know when your brows
Speaker 1: furrowed when you're stressed out or madge, and that they
Speaker 1: the symptoms. Even after they went through an exercise to
Speaker 1: basically de escalate everything, the symptoms persisted. And this was
Speaker 1: just an exercise where you were just thinking about being
Speaker 1: wronged and then holding a grudge about it. Just like
Speaker 1: probably this was like an hour out of their lives
Speaker 1: and that was the effects. That was the findings of that.
Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that yes, anger can affect you physically,
Speaker 1: and what they haven't we don't have the reams of
Speaker 1: data that we have supporting it like we do that
Speaker 1: anger hurts you physically, But there seems to be the
Speaker 1: opposite of that holds true, which is releasing that anger,
Speaker 1: which is forgiveness in whatever form it takes, can actually
Speaker 1: improve your health as well.
Speaker 2: Right earlier in the episode, we were talking about religion.
Speaker 2: All religions talk extensively about forgiveness and when they do
Speaker 2: studies these days, usually like questionnaires and stuff. Depending on
Speaker 2: the studies you look at, you would think religiosity does
Speaker 2: play a role in that people who describe themselves as religious,
Speaker 2: supposedly in some studies are two and a half times
Speaker 2: more likely to say that others should be forgiven unconditionally.
Speaker 2: But I know you found some studies that found that
Speaker 2: religiosity does not play as big a role as a
Speaker 2: lot of people think it does, and that sometimes religious
Speaker 2: people may be more inclined to say that they are
Speaker 2: forgiving when they aren't because it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the study found that when when you ask basically,
Speaker 1: when you survey them, people who are religious tend to
Speaker 1: come off as more forgiving. They self report is forgiving,
Speaker 1: but then if you ask them other certain questions, I
Speaker 1: guess the in real world situations, they're no more forgiving
Speaker 1: than other people. But so that would be an interpretation
Speaker 1: that they think they're more forgiving or tell people they're
Speaker 1: more forgiving than they actually are. But there was another
Speaker 1: way to look at it too, and they went back
Speaker 1: and followed up on that study and they found that
Speaker 1: over a longer term, people who are religious actually do
Speaker 1: tend to be more forgiving in their lives. It wasn't
Speaker 1: like the most set in stone study, but I found
Speaker 1: it interesting that they were. They had it harder. The
Speaker 1: religious people in this study had more difficulty in relating
Speaker 1: grudges that they're carrying around compared to the control group
Speaker 1: of people who weren't religious. Yeah, makes sense. Sure there
Speaker 1: was some redemption there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: As far as how to forgive, like we said, hopefully
Speaker 2: we've gotten it through that is something you can learn.
Speaker 2: If you are not an inherent forgiver, you can learn
Speaker 2: how to through practice. There's a psychologist named Worthington, Everett Worthington,
Speaker 2: Edward Everett, Everett Worthington, there should be a third after that,
Speaker 2: if he asked, I.
Speaker 1: Mean, totally should be.
Speaker 2: And Worthington has developed a reach model which we'll go through.
Speaker 2: It's an acronym.
Speaker 1: Of course.
Speaker 2: Recall is the first step, and that's to really recall
Speaker 2: the event in detail, but in the sort of an
Speaker 2: objective way, and not necessarily something that was done to you,
Speaker 2: but just to look at the detail of it, try
Speaker 2: not to judge yourself or the other person, just simply
Speaker 2: bring that back to your mind.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the point of that is to feel the
Speaker 1: feelings like we have. We humans have such a tendency
Speaker 1: to try to get away from negative feelings and run
Speaker 1: toward positive feelings. And I think Worthington's position is that
Speaker 1: we have to feel whatever feelings are associated with it,
Speaker 1: and that's a huge part of it. That's we have
Speaker 1: to go through that experience. It's part of the recall.
Speaker 2: Right to the E stands for empathy. This is one
Speaker 2: that is I don't know about controversial, but it's not
Speaker 2: everyone agrees at all on whether or not you need
Speaker 2: to actually have empathy to forgive. But empathy can certainly
Speaker 2: help you forgive. If someone has broken into your home
Speaker 2: and stolen from you, it might help to forgive them.
Speaker 2: To empathize and think about where they may be in
Speaker 2: their life to feel like they needed to do something
Speaker 2: like that is one example.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And he points out also like you're not using
Speaker 1: their behavior right, you're just thinking about them beyond just
Speaker 1: a villain or criminal or a person who wronged you,
Speaker 1: for sure. And actually we should say Everett Worthington had
Speaker 1: to put his money where his mouth was because his
Speaker 1: mother was actually murdered by a burglar. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety seven, yep. And he put himself
Speaker 1: through this the Reach method, and he said he came
Speaker 1: out on the other side better off than he had been.
Speaker 2: And I think he was already doing this right. That
Speaker 2: didn't inspire his career, did it?
Speaker 1: No? No, I think he was already doing it. Coincidentally, Wow,
Speaker 1: the ironies. So the A stands for altruistic gift. And
Speaker 1: the point of this is that you realize that you
Speaker 1: were actually giving a gift by forgiving somebody, even I
Speaker 1: guess if you don't tell them, even if you don't
Speaker 1: necessarily empathize with them. But the way you do this,
Speaker 1: the way you recognize that your forgiveness is an altruistic gift,
Speaker 1: is to think about times where you've wronged somebody and
Speaker 1: that they've been forgiven or forgiving, and even if you
Speaker 1: didn't necessarily deserve it, and what a gift that that was,
Speaker 1: you're kind of bringing it to mind, which I think
Speaker 1: is really suspiciously kind of tied in with empathizing.
Speaker 2: If you ask me, yeah, I mean he was trying
Speaker 2: to make the word reach sure, commit to. This is
Speaker 2: what I mentioned earlier about telling someone else that necessarily
Speaker 2: have to be the person you're forgiving, although that could
Speaker 2: help if you want to go that route, but telling
Speaker 2: someone else, at least in Worthington's mind, makes it, gives
Speaker 2: it a degree of permanence. Man it basically makes it
Speaker 2: part of your story, like you're changing the story essentially exactly.
Speaker 1: And then hold, and this is very important too that
Speaker 1: we said earlier you can forgive and it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: mean you're going to forget. So when you do remember
Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you're still going through the process
Speaker 1: and you're still angered by it. You're still hurt by it,
Speaker 1: but you're on the path of forgiveness. You have to
Speaker 1: hold on to the idea that you're working on for
Speaker 1: giving them. That is not an instantaneous thing, So you
Speaker 1: have to hold the fact that you're forgiving them even
Speaker 1: in the face of, you know, being triggered by or
Speaker 1: flooded by this again when you think about the memory
Speaker 1: of it.
Speaker 2: Right, Luskin has a nine step process, which we weren't
Speaker 2: We're not going to really get into, but step eight
Speaker 2: is interesting. Just like rim says, living well is the
Speaker 2: best revenge is the sort of the nuts and bolts
Speaker 2: of number eight, and there's something to be said for that,
Speaker 2: but I think it also makes it much harder to
Speaker 2: forgive and move on if you're not able to live well.
Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean you know, money and riches and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, right, that means just living a full life.
Speaker 2: But if you were not able to forgive and get
Speaker 2: past that, I mean, there are plenty of movies of
Speaker 2: people that have been have some awful thing from their
Speaker 2: past that they're just wallowing in all these years later,
Speaker 2: and that's the central plot of the film.
Speaker 1: You know, she devil Hoosiers, that's right, but that's I mean,
Speaker 1: that's the that's the point of forgiveness is too, is
Speaker 1: to free yourself, to find peace within yourself. And yes,
Speaker 1: it's great for the person who wronged you if you
Speaker 1: overtly forgive them and let them know, but you don't
Speaker 1: have to. And then also, Chuck, there's a whole school
Speaker 1: thought in psychology that says, not only do you not
Speaker 1: have to tell the person that you're forgiving them, you
Speaker 1: don't have to forgive them right at all, and that
Speaker 1: there's this this whole almost kind of not culty but
Speaker 1: really kind of dogmatic idea that if you don't follow
Speaker 1: these steps and you don't like, genuinely fully forgive somebody,
Speaker 1: you really haven't worked out of the process. There's something
Speaker 1: wrong with you. Maybe you're an unforgiving person and that
Speaker 1: makes you tacky. That's what psychologists call it. And there's
Speaker 1: a whole group of psychologists say no, no, no, there's
Speaker 1: there's way more to this process than just you know,
Speaker 1: nine steps or the reach method like there, there's it's
Speaker 1: more nuanced than that, and that you can be a
Speaker 1: fully functioning, emotionally developed person who says, you know what,
Speaker 1: I don't forgive you, I may never forgive you. But
Speaker 1: I'm still going on with my life, right, And if
Speaker 1: the point of forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself,
Speaker 1: If you can achieve peace in yourself and you do
Speaker 1: it without forgiving somebody because you don't want to forgive
Speaker 1: them or you don't feel like you should forgive them,
Speaker 1: then that's okay too. As long as you're getting inner peace,
Speaker 1: that's the point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And there is a school of thoughts saying that
Speaker 2: in cases where like it's a harm has been committed
Speaker 2: to you that could happen again, you may be more
Speaker 2: likely to have that harm committed to you again if
Speaker 2: you do forgive too much. Yeah, there is research about
Speaker 2: spousal abuse that when you are too or when you're
Speaker 2: quick to forgive the abuser, then you are victimized more
Speaker 2: regularly than spouse's who aren't as forgiving, And that's based
Speaker 2: on operant learning. Basically, you're less likely to engage in
Speaker 2: a behavior that has a negative consequence. So they've done
Speaker 2: plenty of research on that, and a lot of psychologists say, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: forgiveness is great, but while you shouldn't be bitter, there
Speaker 2: are a lot of times when you should not forgive
Speaker 2: somebody and that's okay, Yeah.
Speaker 1: There's a whole There's an article from nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 1: on Psychology Today called Must We Forgive? And it is
Speaker 1: really interesting. It's fascinating that this psychologist writes about probably
Speaker 1: half a dozen or more people and they're different individual
Speaker 1: circumstances and the reasons they chose not to forgive, and
Speaker 1: she kind of pigeonholes them into like three general categories,
Speaker 1: but because psychologists love doing that. But it's a really
Speaker 1: compelling article and it's definitely worth reading, and it provides
Speaker 1: this kind of alternative idea that like, no, there's definitely
Speaker 1: situations where some people don't deserve your forgiveness. One of
Speaker 1: the chief among them is if you say, like a
Speaker 1: sibling or a family member of some sort you have
Speaker 1: a like some sort of falling out with or they've
Speaker 1: wronged you, and you choose not to forgive them. You
Speaker 1: might feel tremendous pressure from the rest of your family
Speaker 1: to just go ahead and forgive them. That's a terrible
Speaker 1: reason to forgive somebody. And if you do forgive them
Speaker 1: under those circumstances, or say because your religion decrees it,
Speaker 1: you're like, that's not full forgiveness, and it may actually
Speaker 1: harm you because you may suffer from a distorted self
Speaker 1: image or lowered self respect because you basically went back
Speaker 1: to this person who not only wronged you in the past,
Speaker 1: is unrepentant about it, but it's just going to continue
Speaker 1: the behavior again in the future. So there's definitely instances
Speaker 1: that where you probably shouldn't forgive, But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you should be stuck in resentment and anger and
Speaker 1: letting that person have power over your life. You might
Speaker 1: just need to move on without them and without forgiving them,
Speaker 1: and you can make that work as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there was one terrible story that you
Speaker 2: said about the woman who as a child had this
Speaker 2: terribly bullying and abusive older brother.
Speaker 1: And we won't even.
Speaker 2: Talk about the awful things this guy did, but the
Speaker 2: parents were really always pushing like, oh, he just doesn't
Speaker 2: he doesn't know how to say he loves you, he
Speaker 2: doesn't know how to talk to you, so he does
Speaker 2: these things and you really need to forgive him. And
Speaker 2: that's just that's bonkers. You know, that is a situation
Speaker 2: where you were doing such great harm as a parent
Speaker 2: to teach your daughter to accept this kind of behavior.
Speaker 2: And not only accept it but forgive it. It's like
Speaker 2: just setting her up for unless she really therapies through
Speaker 2: that stuff later in life of just a series of
Speaker 2: terrible relationships. So exactly, yes, yes he can't. Forgiveness isn't
Speaker 2: always the thing. I have a friend who had a
Speaker 2: terrible thing happened to him when he was younger, and
Speaker 2: we talked a lot about this, and he has forgiven
Speaker 2: that person in his heart and I was like, well,
Speaker 2: I haven't, and it's like I'm still angry about it.
Speaker 2: And he was like thanks, Like that helps, Like I'm
Speaker 2: angry and have not forgiven on his behalf. And I
Speaker 2: thought he was going to say like, no, man, you
Speaker 2: need to do the same, and he was like brother,
Speaker 2: he was like thank you man, Yeah, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's another thing worth pointing out too,
Speaker 1: is we have this concept of people who forgive others
Speaker 1: being saintly. Yeah, And it's not necessarily that kind of
Speaker 1: a thing. It's not necessarily that kind of a process.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it is just straight up self preservation. Like you are,
Speaker 1: that's the way that you're going to get to a
Speaker 1: point where you can feel peace again in your life
Speaker 1: and That doesn't mean you're a saint, or you're even
Speaker 1: feeling saintly or you're conducting yourself in a saintly manner,
Speaker 1: And that doesn't matter as long as you're feeling inner
Speaker 1: peace in your life is no longer turmoil and this
Speaker 1: person who wronged you doesn't have power over you any longer.
Speaker 1: That's the point of forgiveness.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was totally the deal in his case,
Speaker 2: is that was his only way forward to healing himself.
Speaker 2: But since this wasn't something that happened to me, I
Speaker 2: was able to not forgive and remain upset about it,
Speaker 2: and he was okay with that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And still to this day, you won't buy that
Speaker 1: guy of beers Man. So there's one other thing that
Speaker 1: has started to kind of come out of the shadows
Speaker 1: that's just getting picked up by psychology as far as
Speaker 1: forgiveness goes in it's self forgiveness, And we don't really
Speaker 1: have room to talk about that here, but it's worth
Speaker 1: exploring sometime maybe in short stuff. Yeah, that's a big deal.
Speaker 2: Just a lot of times when I'm beating up on myself,
Speaker 2: Emily says, you need to be nicer to my friend.
Speaker 1: Oh, I know, you've told that before. I was just
Speaker 1: in one of the sweetest things I've ever heard. What
Speaker 1: a kind thing to say. It works. You know who
Speaker 1: needs to hear that? Don Henley, You got anything else
Speaker 1: on forgiveness? Yeah, nothing else. This is a good way
Speaker 1: to eat philosophical discussion. I like these, agreed. Thanks a
Speaker 1: lot to Dave Bruce for helping us out with this one.
Speaker 1: And if you want to know more about forgiveness, you
Speaker 1: should seriously go out and do some reading, especially if
Speaker 1: you have something to forgive. It's not something you necessarily
Speaker 1: can understand just instinctively. It helps to see what the
Speaker 1: experts say. So maybe go explore that and free yourself.
Speaker 1: Since I said free yourself, that of course means it's
Speaker 1: time for listener maw.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna call this dental art. Hey, guys, been a
Speaker 2: listener for a while. I've nearly finished with the sandwiching method.
Speaker 2: Before I knew it was even cool, we were talking
Speaker 2: a few shows. You were talking a few shows back
Speaker 2: before the holidays about putting a kidney stone and Chuck's
Speaker 2: replacement tooth. This would be unusual, but people actually get
Speaker 2: custom in lays and artwork made for their crowns inlayser
Speaker 2: generally gold or gymstone with a custom artwork, and it's
Speaker 2: referred to as a tooth tattoo, which is hand painted
Speaker 2: onto the crown before it gets a final clot of glaze.
Speaker 2: The most common request here in the Chicago Land area
Speaker 2: are sports logos.
Speaker 1: Oh no, like a little Chicago Cubs logo.
Speaker 2: Too, But I've seen names, company logos, even a tiny
Speaker 2: version of Starry Night on a tooth. While a lot
Speaker 2: of modern crown in Bridge manufacturing has gone digital, highly
Speaker 2: leveraging cam, A, CAD and three D printing for most restorations,
Speaker 2: tooth tattoos are unique manifestation of the relatively unknown artistry
Speaker 2: of a subset of dental technicians.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 2: While I recognize the dentistry as a whole as widely
Speaker 2: disliked and a pain to endure, I appreciate you guys
Speaker 2: probably unknowingly helped to destigmatize restorative dental work by openly
Speaker 2: talking about your dealings with it. Toothware and decay is
Speaker 2: part of the human condition. No need for shame. After all,
Speaker 2: we will keep me and my CADRA employed and happily
Speaker 2: listening to stuff you should know. Many regards that is
Speaker 2: from Eric Crowley or Crowley probably Crowley.
Speaker 1: I'm going with Crowley in park Ridge, Illinois. Very nice.
Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Eric, that's awesome. Can you imagine seeing
Speaker 1: Starry Night on a tooth? I gotta look that up. Wonderful.
Speaker 1: I'd have this scream that's a good one, and then
Speaker 1: you could scream whenever you reveal it too. Yeah, just
Speaker 1: freak people out. And speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I
Speaker 1: feel like we should congratulate our Georgia Bulldogs for winning
Speaker 1: the national championship.
Speaker 2: Yes, never thought I would see the day. What a great,
Speaker 2: great game, Just unbelievable feeling. Two championships in three months
Speaker 2: for this long suffering Atlanta slash Georgia van.
Speaker 1: I know, it's amazing.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how to reconcile these feelings that
Speaker 2: I'm having lately.
Speaker 1: And they'll be robbed from you next year. Don't worry.
Speaker 1: I'll show her back to normal. But that is pretty
Speaker 1: great to go out on a highlight. Probably that was great.
Speaker 1: Go dogs, Go dogs, indeed. And if you want to
Speaker 1: get in touch with Chuck and I and Jerry or
Speaker 1: Frank the Chair or Harry dogg even we can probably
Speaker 1: pass along emails you send. You can wrap your emails up,
Speaker 1: spank them on the bottom, and send them off to
Speaker 1: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts myheart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.