1 00:00:00,720 --> 00:00:03,160 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, it's me Josh, and I thought for my 2 00:00:03,320 --> 00:00:06,080 Speaker 1: picks this year, I would kick off twenty twenty six 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:10,400 Speaker 1: with a very sweet, moving, and also eye opening episode 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: on forgiveness. It turns out all of us have the 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: capacity to forgive, but that's not always the best course 6 00:00:17,239 --> 00:00:21,360 Speaker 1: of action for any given circumstance. This episode also has 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: a lot of really great stories of amazing acts of 8 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: forgiveness by people who forgave others against all odds. It's 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,080 Speaker 1: a good episode and I hope you enjoy it, and 10 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: I hope your year is going wonderfully so far. 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 12 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: Hey, you, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's 13 00:00:49,400 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is stuff you 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: should know. Some philosophical waxing is going to happen in 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:02,160 Speaker 1: this one. I think it's inevitable. Pull Chuck, that's right, 16 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: and Don Henley songs Oh yeah, that's a good one too, 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: Heart of the Matter. Mm hmm. You like it sure, 18 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 1: all right? That part where he's like, I'm learning to 19 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:20,080 Speaker 1: live with that, dude. No, it stirs my soul every time. Forgiveness. Yeah, 20 00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: you'd have to be dead inside to not be stirred 21 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: by that part. I agree, it's good, good song, but 22 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: he really kind of nails it in that because he's 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: talking about forgiveness and the heart of the matter. Sure, 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: and he's he wants forgiveness, he needs forgiveness, even if 25 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:39,960 Speaker 1: like it's the end of the relationship. 26 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, even if she doesn't love him anymore. 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: Sure. So, on the one hand, that is a certain 28 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of forgiveness that an individual or person can that's 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: a path someone can set down. But there's been a 30 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: lot of research starting starting in the very beginning stages 31 00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: at the middle of the twentieth but really picking up 32 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: in the nineties, research into forgiveness, like legitimate scientific research, 33 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: and it's a multidisciplinary thing because there's a lot of 34 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:14,960 Speaker 1: different fields disciplines, sure, that have said, hey, this actually, 35 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: this is something we can study and measure and produce 36 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: articles and work on. And they have, They've produced some 37 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: really good, legitimate work. But what most of them have 38 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 1: been focused on is not the Don Henley position of 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: somebody who needs to be redeemed, who needs redemption to 40 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: feel better, who needs forgiveness, yeah, but rather the person 41 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: doing the forgiving the person who has originally transgressed against, 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: not the offender, but the offendee. That's where most of 43 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: the research has been done on forgiveness. Right. 44 00:02:48,680 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 2: Don Henley is a rock star, so he's writing a 45 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: song about wanting to be forgiven for a foursome he 46 00:02:55,720 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 2: had in Saint Paul backstage. Sure, even if you don't 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: love me anymore, can you forgive me that? 48 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: You know? Can you blame a guy? Is what he's saying. So, yeah, 49 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: I think that's probably exactly what that song is about. 50 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:16,399 Speaker 1: Now that you mentioned that's the subtext. So I think 51 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: we should start by pointing out something about forgiveness. Is 52 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: that a lot of people there's a lot of stories 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:29,000 Speaker 1: about people not forgiving. We call it revenge, and people 54 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,359 Speaker 1: love revenge, you know, Like think about the revenge movie 55 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: genre and how many entries there are pretty great? Like 56 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: have you ever seen I Saw the Devil? Yeah? Have 57 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 1: you ever seen Old Boy? Yeah? Have you ever seen 58 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: Death Becomes Her? Yeah? Have you ever seen She Devil? Nope? 59 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: Oh you haven't. With Roseanne Barr and Ed Bigley and 60 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: Mary Movie, yes, all of them great revenge movies. Can 61 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: I shout out one of my favorites? Yeah, please do. 62 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 2: Like legitimately, it's kind of a smaller indie movie called 63 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:08,440 Speaker 2: Blue Ruin. 64 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I saw that one. 65 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,960 Speaker 2: Great great revenge movie. If you're into revenge movies and 66 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: I am, I enjoy it. There's a cap arsis involved 67 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: because I'm a big forgiver, So I think I like 68 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: seeing movies where revenge happens. 69 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we'll talk a lot about, you know, revenge, 70 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: because they're virtually two sides of the same coin, and 71 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: they really interact in some surprising ways that are sensible 72 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:33,159 Speaker 1: when you see it laid out, but you might not 73 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: necessarily be walking around thinking about. But on the other side, 74 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: if you look up movies about forgiveness, almost all of 75 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: them were produced by a megachurch somewhere in the South. 76 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:51,120 Speaker 1: Or you've got Magnolia and then the Fisher King are 77 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 1: like the two like legitimate contenders for movies about forgiveness. 78 00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, because I think there's a fine 79 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 2: line sometimes between redemption stories and forgiveness stories. 80 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: Okay, they can kind of go hand in hand. There 81 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: are plenty of redemption stories. Okay, like what what redemption stories? Yeah, 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: let's hear it. Oh, I mean. 83 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 2: Hoosiers one of the great sports redemption movies. 84 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: Okay, I think that's a pretty loose definition of redemption. 85 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: Now, former alcoholic coach who who was not working because 86 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: of some bad deeds gets redeemed by looking a team 87 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,120 Speaker 2: to a championship. Dennis Hopper gets redeemed as the alcoholic father. 88 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: Wait a minute, was was Gene Hackman on the road 89 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,040 Speaker 1: to redemption? I thought he came in and basically got 90 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: Dennis Hopper redeemed a double redemption. He was getting redeemed 91 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 1: as well. All right, Okay, okay, okay, So plenty. 92 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 2: Of redemption stories, and I think there's a lot of 93 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: movies that wrestle with the idea of forgiveness and really weighty, 94 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,480 Speaker 2: heavy ways, like these true stories that you hear about 95 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: these awful things that happen, whether a family member is 96 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: accidentally killed by someone or murdered by someone, like, there's 97 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: a lot of that stuff in movies. 98 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 1: Okay. So my thesis is this, and this is strictly 99 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: me editorializing here, I think there's some validity to it, 100 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:22,280 Speaker 1: and that is that the reason why it's much easier 101 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 1: to name revenge movies is because revenge appeals to our 102 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 1: baser instincts. It makes sense, it's universally understood. And like 103 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,480 Speaker 1: you said, you even consider yourself a big time forgiver, 104 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: and yet you enjoy revenge movies. It's cathartic for you. 105 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: There's something to be delivered by a revenge movie. Yep, 106 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: a movie about forgiveness, it's just more complicated, it's harder. 107 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: We're not as good and we're not as automatically adept 108 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:56,840 Speaker 1: at forgiveness as we may be with revenge. That's why 109 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: I think there's fewer forgiveness movies. But that's not to 110 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:02,400 Speaker 1: say that we're not moved by it, because I think 111 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: if you hear whenever you hear real life stories of forgiveness, 112 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: they just bowl you over. Oh yeah, even when you 113 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: step back and think about like what the person's actually doing, 114 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: you're like, yes, legitimately, anybody could do what they just did. 115 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: It's it's akin to hearing somebody's solo climbing Mount Everest 116 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: or something like that. It's it makes the news literally 117 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 1: when somebody forgives in like a really deep way that 118 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: the average person might. 119 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: Not, yeah, like a big time transgression. A lot of 120 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: times you'll hear of a courtroom scene where someone has 121 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 2: forgiven the person who like murdered their relative or loved 122 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 2: one or something, and that man, that stuff is powerful. 123 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: You're right every time you see these stories. You dug 124 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: up this one story from Berkeley the Greater Good magazine 125 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: Science Based Insights for a Meaningful Life out of UC 126 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 2: Berkeley of this woman who was a nurse's aide who 127 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: hit a guy. She had been drinking hit a guy 128 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: in her car. He went through the windshield and was 129 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 2: stuck there, and she was so impaired she didn't realize 130 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: it for a while. Eventually realized that got out of 131 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: the car, could not get the guy out, who was 132 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: still alive, mind you, and so drove home and parked 133 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,720 Speaker 2: her car in the garage to let this guy slowly 134 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 2: die yeah, in her garage. 135 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: Over the course of a couple of days, and like 136 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: she sobered up, would go out and chuck on him 137 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: once in a while, but refused to call for help 138 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: because she was too concerned about getting in trouble, so 139 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: instead she let him die, had a couple friends come 140 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: help her hide the body, move the body, and then 141 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: actually got found out later on because four months later 142 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: she was at a party and she joked about it 143 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: to an acquaintance who went and told the cops, and 144 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: this woman ended up getting fifty years in pre that's 145 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: a horrible story, Like that's one of the worst things 146 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: that a human being could possibly do. There were so 147 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: many opportunities for this woman to save this man's life. 148 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: And by the way, everyone involved in that court case 149 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: who had a medical degree said that had she called 150 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: the cops, the fire department taken the guy to the hospital, 151 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 1: he almost certainly would have survived those injuries. But given 152 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 1: that she didn't for days get him medical aid, he 153 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: finally did succumb to them, but he probably would have survived, 154 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: almost certainly would have survived. Like what she did was 155 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:35,439 Speaker 1: about as horrific as what a person could do and 156 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: just so irresponsible with human life. And she rightfully got 157 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:44,480 Speaker 1: a fifty year prison sentence for that crime. And yet 158 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: despite how horrific that was, what made news just as 159 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: much as that is that a short time later that 160 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 1: man's son, the man who was hit and killed publicly 161 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: forgave that woman for killing his father. 162 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: Yes, at the sentencing said quote, there's no winners in 163 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 2: a case like this. Just as we all lost Greg, 164 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,559 Speaker 2: you all will be losing your daughter to her family. 165 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 2: I still want to extend my forgiveness to Chante Mallard 166 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 2: was her name, and let her know that the Mallard 167 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,319 Speaker 2: family is in my prayers. And this is the kind 168 00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 2: of stuff, like you said, that makes the news where 169 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 2: I think it hits everybody because it makes everybody stop 170 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 2: for a second and. 171 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: Say, could I do that? Yes? 172 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 2: Could I reach that point of forgiveness? And that's a 173 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 2: big weighty question because there's all kinds of forgiveness. There's 174 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 2: a couple partners together who get in a fight and 175 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: someone says they're sorry for doing a certain thing, and 176 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 2: they're forgiven or not. There are situations at work where 177 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 2: people are forgiven. There are friends who maybe betray you 178 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 2: by like cheating on on somebody with someone. I had 179 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,360 Speaker 2: a situation like that where I had a former friend 180 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 2: I felt like cheated with my barely ex girlfriend and 181 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: I spent quite a few years being upset about that 182 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 2: and then forgave him. And it's a powerful thing. So 183 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: there's like levels. But when you get to this kind 184 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: of thing where someone caused the death of a loved 185 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 2: one and then even laughed about it, like to be 186 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,199 Speaker 2: able to forgive like that is just that's next level. 187 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: It is. It is so much so, Chuck, that a 188 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:37,000 Speaker 1: group of convicted murderers who were serving sentences in prison 189 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: heard about this, and I guess got in touch with 190 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: one another and raised funds and got a ten thousand 191 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 1: dollars scholarship together, Wow, for Brandon Biggs to go to college. 192 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 1: The convicted murderer sent the kid to college because this 193 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: very generous act of public forgiveness of his own father's murderer. 194 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: So yeah, it is. It's an astounding thing. And yet 195 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: everything that like the research that really, like I said, 196 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: started to take off in earnest in the nineties has 197 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 1: shown us is that we're all perfectly capable of doing that. 198 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: The answer is, yes, yes, you can do that, You 199 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 1: totally could do that, but that we don't necessarily fully 200 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: understand how to. And yet there's a lot of evidence 201 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 1: also that it's evolutionarily wired into us to do that. Yeah. 202 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:33,240 Speaker 2: And you know, we'll get into religiosity of it a 203 00:12:33,240 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 2: bit more in detail later, but all religions talk a 204 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 2: lot about forgiveness. There's you know, a pretty famous story 205 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 2: in the Bible where Peter said to Jesus, lord how 206 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 2: many times shall I forgive my brother or sister who 207 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 2: sends against me up. 208 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: To seven times? 209 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: And Jesus said, I tell you not seven times, but 210 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 2: seventy times seven. And Peter said so four hundred and 211 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 2: ninety times, and Jesus said, oh, Peter, are always so literal. Yeah, 212 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: that one's pretty good. But you know, you can read Hindu, 213 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 2: you can read the Buddhists talk about it. Like everyone, 214 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 2: every religion talks about. Forgiveness is kind of a maybe 215 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 2: a cornerstone of the religion in some cases, so. 216 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 1: Much so that when science started looking into forgiveness and 217 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 1: just trying to figure it out, generally people is just 218 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: presumed forgiveness was under the realm and the domain of religion. 219 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: That's where that's where you went for answers about forgiveness. 220 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: And science said, oh, we we can top that. Well, 221 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:39,760 Speaker 1: surely we can beat that four hundred and ninety number. 222 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: And that's what they've said about doing Yeah. 223 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: I mean, Jesus forgave his crucifiers. It's like one of 224 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 2: the few things Jesus said on the cross. According to 225 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 2: the Bible, they know not what they do, like forgive 226 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 2: them for they know not what they do. 227 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,200 Speaker 1: Right. And like you said, it's not just Christianity. Although 228 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:03,319 Speaker 1: Christianity gets all the all the accolades for forgiveness, Jainism 229 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: is a big one. There's a there's a kind of 230 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: a mantra from Jainism that says, I grant forgiveness to 231 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: all living beings. They all living beings, grant me forgiveness. 232 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: My friendship is with all living beings. My enmity is 233 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: totally non existent. And that's I mean, when you look 234 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: at that, especially if you're not a Janist, you're you're like, wow, 235 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 1: how would you ever? How would you ever reach that level? 236 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: And I think the point is it's like you never 237 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: reach that level. It's an ideal, a goal that you 238 00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: try to achieve, probably on a daily basis if you're 239 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: a Janis, but it's certainly over a lifetime, you know. Yeah. 240 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: And I'd like to read this again, not to pile 241 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: on the religious stuff, but the Hindu one really spoke 242 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: to me. 243 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: Uh. 244 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:47,960 Speaker 2: This one part in the middle says what can a 245 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:51,400 Speaker 2: wicked person do? And to him or into one who 246 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: carries the saber of forgiveness in his hand? And that 247 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: one really speaks to me in that it's the it's 248 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 2: a powerful tool to forgive, and it's for you as 249 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 2: the forgiver. I think a lot of times people think 250 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 2: it can clear the conscious of someone who's done something wrong. 251 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: I guess that certainly happens, But to me, it's really 252 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 2: about it's a powerful weapon you have to regain your 253 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 2: own strength as a human. 254 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 1: Yes, that seems to be the bulk of what psychology 255 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: is coming up with as far as studying forgiveness goes 256 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: that it's really the person who is who has been wronged. 257 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: That's what forgiveness is more about. That's the psychological aspect 258 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: of it. Like we said, it's a multidisciplinary investigation, and 259 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: so you've got evolutionary biologists who like, that's really great psychology, 260 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: but we found a different reason for forgiveness and it 261 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 1: doesn't quite fit that mold. And then like the medical 262 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: field says, no, it's even better than that. You can 263 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: actually like improve your health by genuinely forgiving somebody. So 264 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 1: there's all these different inputs that are coming together to 265 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: create this really like complex, contextualized picture of what forgiveness 266 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: is and what it does for us and why we 267 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: have it. That's right. I think it's a great setup. 268 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 2: I agree, you want to take a break, I might 269 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: just not come back and feel so good about that. 270 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: No, we have to finish. We got to complete, all right. 271 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a minute to talk about what 272 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: I think is probably the most interesting part of this 273 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 2: is the evolutionary aspect. 274 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: Right after this. 275 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 3: Learn and stuff with Joshua job stuff you shine up. 276 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:03,600 Speaker 1: So this was this, this is the correct forgiveness? Was 277 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: the Dave Ruse joint. 278 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 2: Oh okay, I thought this was Livia. So yeah, thanks 279 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 2: to Dave for this. He did a great job with 280 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 2: this research. But the evolutionary aspect of forgiveness is super 281 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 2: interesting to me because I think that a lot of 282 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: people assume that it's what Dave calls a higher virtue, 283 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: like you know is took took in the gang. We're 284 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 2: so base as you know, kind of primitive thinkers, is 285 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,159 Speaker 2: that they didn't have the capacity forgive. They would they 286 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:34,679 Speaker 2: would smite somebody if if someone punched, took took in 287 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 2: the face, took, took punch back, or someone attacked took took, took, 288 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 2: took attack back, maybe even harder. And there is quite 289 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 2: a bit of evidence that they're not mutually exclusive and 290 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 2: that that fighting back and forgiving both have a big 291 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 2: evolutionary advantage. 292 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the big evolutionary advantage of revenge is if 293 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: you live in a social group and somebody takes advantage 294 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: of you, or they hit you, or they steal your 295 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: food or whatever, if you don't do something to right 296 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: that wrong, you're broadcasting to the rest of the group 297 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: that you are open for exploitation. And that's not good 298 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: for you. It's also not good for the chances that 299 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 1: you're going to pass along your genes, and so under 300 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,959 Speaker 1: the auspices of natural selection, it makes sense for you 301 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: to hit that person that steals your food or who 302 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: hits you, And that's revenge, and revenge forms that function 303 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 1: in a social group. It says to everybody. It signals 304 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: to the rest of the group you are not to 305 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,239 Speaker 1: be messed with. This guy tried it, and look what 306 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: happened to him. Nobody else should try that. Go pick 307 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: on somebody else. And there's actually been studies that have 308 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: showed that not just among apes and primates, but among 309 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: human cultures, revenge is found pretty much universally. And I 310 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: saw a study Chuck that said that the mere presence 311 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: of a person a third party who's witnessing an argument 312 00:18:57,480 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: increases the chances that the argument is going to come 313 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,879 Speaker 1: to blows because you're signaling to the rest of the 314 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: group and in this case, just that third person you 315 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: are not to be messed with. That That's the purpose 316 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: of revenge is to broadcast that signal. 317 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I would say that any kind of dumb, 318 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 2: drunk bar fight, half of it is the fact that 319 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: someone didn't want to back down in front of other people. 320 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,400 Speaker 1: Sure, you know more than have totally. 321 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 2: And that if those two guys were just in an 322 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 2: alley somewhere, they may just hug it out. 323 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not, but you never know. It's possible, or 324 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: they might talk it out at least. 325 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, or disagree that it's domb and leave. Yes, but 326 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:44,199 Speaker 2: you talked about studies in the animal world. There's a 327 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 2: primatologist name Franz Deval who looked at wild chimps recorded 328 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,200 Speaker 2: three hundred and fifty encounters aggressive encounters between these gymps 329 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 2: and then what happened afterward, And in fifty one percent 330 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: of these encounters, the chimps would literally kind of kiss 331 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,239 Speaker 2: and make up and touch each other and embrace each 332 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 2: other after a fight. We've seen the same thing in 333 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 2: bonabos and great apes. There's sheep, there's dolphins, there's goats. 334 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: Even hyenas have shown traits of forgiveness. So it's not ubiquitous, 335 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 2: but it is all over the animal kingdom. Animals fighting 336 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 2: and then animals making up with one another. 337 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: Right, So, I mean, the revenge one's pretty easy to understand, 338 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: but then you're like, okay, well, why would there be 339 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: the making up part? But that also ties into the 340 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: fact that these same animals are also living in social 341 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: tight knit social groups, and so you have a limited 342 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:42,680 Speaker 1: amount of people that you can possibly have a dispute 343 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,199 Speaker 1: or a feud with, and if you're not working together 344 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: cooperatively in that sense, also your chances of survival are decreased. 345 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: So what makes sense is what's called the valuable relationship hypothesis, 346 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,960 Speaker 1: which says, if somebody hits you, you should hit them back, 347 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: but then after that you should make up with them. 348 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: So you're sending that signal you're not to be messed with. 349 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 1: But then you're repairing that relationship, that valuable relationship that 350 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: you depend on to help your survival in the social group. 351 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: You're repairing it, and then you guys can move forward. 352 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: And that that is how revenge and forgiveness are basically 353 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: two sides of the same coin, or at least work 354 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,400 Speaker 1: in conjunction with one another to keep the group functioning 355 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: at its best right. 356 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 2: And that kind of dovetails with a second part of 357 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: that thing, which is called negative reciprocity, which is if 358 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:47,359 Speaker 2: someone hits Tiktook and Tiktook goes c razy and just 359 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 2: starts wailing on the other person who just slapped him 360 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 2: in the face. Yeah, that's not good either, because everyone's 361 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 2: going to go, whoa Tiktook. I'm not sure I trust 362 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: him now. He's definitely burned that bridge for between him 363 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: and the other guy. And none of this is very good. 364 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 2: So what they found is negative reciprocity. If you if 365 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 2: someone smites you, you smite them back the same amount 366 00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 2: and then forgive them. Like if someone takes off their 367 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: glove and slaps you across the face, you don't kick 368 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 2: them between the legs and then wail on their face. 369 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 2: You slap them back with your glove, and then you 370 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,199 Speaker 2: talk about forgiving one another. And everyone sees that you 371 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,479 Speaker 2: can work with people, You can you can stand your ground, 372 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,160 Speaker 2: but you can also forgive and work with people, which 373 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: means you're valuable to the group and you're valuable to 374 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:37,080 Speaker 2: have around. 375 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so kind of tie it into what you 376 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:43,159 Speaker 1: were saying earlier about you know how, there's this idea 377 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: that you know, revenge is a base instinct and forgiveness 378 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,760 Speaker 1: is a higher instinct, rather than realizing that they're both 379 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 1: pretty basic instincts for among the animal kingdom. Is there's 380 00:22:55,200 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: this idea that in human society, we have created like 381 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: these social institutions in these contexts so that the individual 382 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: doesn't have to carry out revenge and then forgiveness, that 383 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 1: they can just focus on forgiveness as long as those 384 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: social institutions are doing what they're supposed to do, as 385 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: long as there is like a pursuit of justice, and 386 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: you can rely on the idea that the person who 387 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,879 Speaker 1: transgressed against you by killing your father is going to 388 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: be caught and punished and sentenced to jail. You don't 389 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: have to worry about revenge. It's being conducted for you, 390 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: and then you, the individual in this well functioning society, 391 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: can just focus on whether you want to forgive or not, 392 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,200 Speaker 1: and that that's that kind of higher and lower echelon. 393 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: Because in the opposite situation where there isn't like a 394 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:47,200 Speaker 1: good sense of justice, where it does seem like if 395 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: you want justice you have to go seek it out yourself, 396 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:53,560 Speaker 1: revenge is going to be much more exercised, much more 397 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: frequently than forgiveness. 398 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 2: Will Yeah, which says a lot about the United States 399 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 2: these days, you know. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying 400 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 2: to be cynical even, I mean, that's just sort of 401 00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 2: what we see around us. I think a lot of 402 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 2: people feel like the sense of justice in this country 403 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 2: is pretty skewed, and that's why you might see the 404 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:18,880 Speaker 2: increases in things like vigilanteism or revenge. And I don't 405 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 2: know what societies you look to to do a study 406 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,679 Speaker 2: like that. I'm kind of curious on the ones that 407 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 2: are very well policed and the justice is sort of 408 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 2: fair and equal. But I think that's one of the 409 00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 2: problems in the in the States these days, for sure. Yeah, 410 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: without getting two far down that rabbit. 411 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: Hole, but also even you know, it's it's kind of 412 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 1: eye opening to me because I've never really thought about 413 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 1: the courts and the justice system is set up to 414 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: help individuals move along. Yeah, it should do. You just 415 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: think of it as punishment. It's a system for punishment, 416 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: not for redemption necessarily, but it's also to help the victims. 417 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: I just never saw it that before. 418 00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting when you talk about that guy in court, 419 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: and a lot of times you'll hear the courtroom forgiveness. 420 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll also hear the opposite, and you hear the 421 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 2: courtroom like, I will never forgive you for what you 422 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 2: did to me, And I think not always, but it 423 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 2: seems to be a lot of time tied to whether 424 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 2: the transgressor has really acknowledged what they've done and sought 425 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 2: forgiveness and said that's the worst thing I've ever done 426 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 2: in my life, and I don't think you should ever 427 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: forgive me. Like it's an interesting sort of dance that 428 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 2: happens there because it's not a one to one thing. 429 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 2: It's not like every time a bad criminal that does 430 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 2: something really asks for forgiveness and says it was a 431 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: terrible thing, the other person forgives. So sometimes the person 432 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,479 Speaker 2: could laugh it off like this lady did and not 433 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 2: ask for forgiveness. Any other person could forgive, which I 434 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: think goes back to the notion that forgiveness comes from 435 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: the forgiver. 436 00:25:55,960 --> 00:26:00,479 Speaker 1: Right, that it's really about the person who's been wrong too. 437 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: It's about and so yeah, now we've reached the kind 438 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: of psychologies domain over the concept of forgiveness, which is 439 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: that it's about you, the individual who suffered a wrong, 440 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: releasing the pain and the anger and the resentment and 441 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: all the negative feelings that you're experiencing so that you 442 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: can feel better. And that it doesn't matter whether the 443 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 1: other person is asking for forgiveness, and that it doesn't 444 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 1: even matter if the other person deserves forgiveness or not. 445 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 1: That genuine forgiveness psychologically speaking, according to some psychologists, will 446 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: hear that some disagree, but that genuine, true forgiveness is unconditional, 447 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: that you forgive the person whether they deserve it or not. 448 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, And this is to where the language to me 449 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: is a little I could see people debating this because 450 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,440 Speaker 2: it is forgiveness in a way, but to me, it's 451 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: almost more of just a letting go. Yeah, I agree 452 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 2: with you, of an anger, it's not. It's so tricky 453 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,520 Speaker 2: with the definition because when you think of forgiveness, you 454 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,280 Speaker 2: think I'm saying and it's really not what it is. 455 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,639 Speaker 2: What you're not saying is it's okay what you did. Okay, 456 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,239 Speaker 2: so yes, you know what I mean. That's not what 457 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 2: That's not a key component of forgiveness. 458 00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: No, No, it's not. You're that's and that's a very 459 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,360 Speaker 1: confusing thing for a lot of people too. Is that 460 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: the idea that if you forgive somebody, you're you're you're 461 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: condoning their behavior. You're saying it's okay what they do. 462 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: That's not the point of forgiveness. From from what psychologists 463 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,879 Speaker 1: who research this are coming up with. They're saying, No, 464 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 1: what you're doing when you forgive somebody is to say, 465 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: I know what you did, you wronged me, and I 466 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: can live with that. It doesn't make it any better. Yeah, 467 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:49,919 Speaker 1: it doesn't make it any better. It doesn't excuse what 468 00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: you did, right, and it does it certainly doesn't excuse 469 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: future repeated instances of what you just did. But it's saying, like, 470 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,360 Speaker 1: I'm willing to let go of the I have associated 471 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: with this act you did against me, that you this wrong, 472 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: and I'm going to move forward with my life, and 473 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: in doing that, I'm willing to let you move forward 474 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 1: as well. Well. 475 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 2: Or I think sometimes in a case like this, that 476 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 2: kind of forgiveness can make the transgressor suffer worse sometimes yeah, 477 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 2: just a guilt, Yeah, and they want to be admonished 478 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 2: and hated as part of a punishment. But you know, 479 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,200 Speaker 2: ts you know, because again, forgiveness is not for you, 480 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 2: it's for the person. Dave even makes a great point 481 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,640 Speaker 2: the person being forgiven is secondary or even unnecessary to 482 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 2: the process, and that's sort of the key. You don't 483 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: even have to tell that person necessarily. We'll get to 484 00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 2: later some kind of like how to forgive. Some people 485 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 2: say that you should tell someone out loud, like literally 486 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 2: tell someone, But you don't necessarily have to tell that 487 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: person if it's a situation like this, or even if 488 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: it's like a close personal friend like I think usually 489 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: you do when it's someone you know, because that's a 490 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: part of communicating with one another in a healthy way. 491 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 2: But if it's the person who who killed your family, 492 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 2: you don't have to tell them to forgive them, and 493 00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: you can still forgive them. 494 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: Yes, So some psychologists define forgiveness, like a full forgiveness 495 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: as including you actually seeking out contact with that person, right, 496 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 1: and that if you forgive them but don't tell them, 497 00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,600 Speaker 1: or you still avoid them afterward, where it's like, hey, 498 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: I forgive you, but good luck with the rest of 499 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: your life. You're not in my life anymore. That to 500 00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: some psychologists, not all. Some psychologists say that's not genuine forgiveness. 501 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 1: That's akin to what you were saying, which is letting 502 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: go of anger and moving on, but not really actually forgiving. 503 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: I still say it's forgiving. I'm not one of the psychologists, sure, 504 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: and it's very much debated, for sure. But then that 505 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: also leads to another point too, that if you forgive somebody, 506 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: it doesn't necessarily mean you forget, and that's not part 507 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: and parcel to it. Forgiving doesn't mean forgetting. You can forget. 508 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: I'm actually really good at that kind of thing, where 509 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,479 Speaker 1: like I forgive because it just unless it was a 510 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: really huge wrong, it just kind of phased from my 511 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: memory fairly easily, and I don't dwell on it, so 512 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: it can it can go hand in hand. But if 513 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: you've been deeply wrong by somebody where you're actually going 514 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,280 Speaker 1: through the process of forgiving, which we'll talk about, and 515 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: it is a it's a deliberate step that you're taking 516 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: toward finding peace with yourself and your life again, then 517 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 1: you know very well, what that wrong was, and you're 518 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: not going to forget it, but eventually the aim is 519 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: that you will have divorced the emotional attachment from that 520 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: memory of that wrong to where it becomes akin to 521 00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: like a movie you saw once or a trip you 522 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,080 Speaker 1: took once, Like it's not it's just a thing that 523 00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: happened in your life, rather than this, this this crisis 524 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: that is sucking up your attention and emotions. 525 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, I really like this definition from Fred Luskin, who 526 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 2: is a psychologist and forgiveness expert for what It's worth, 527 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 2: director of the Stanford University Forgiveness Projects. And Fred's definition 528 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,760 Speaker 2: is to forgive is to give up all hope for 529 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 2: a better past, And that really lays it out there 530 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 2: in this in a very practical sense, that what has 531 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,400 Speaker 2: happened has happened. You may not be there yet in 532 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 2: your journey to forgiveness or the letting go, but you 533 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: cannot change what happened, no matter how angry you are, 534 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 2: or how much you want someone to pay for it 535 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 2: or suffer, or how much revenge you want. So there 536 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,720 Speaker 2: is no better past that's impossible. So giving up hope 537 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 2: for a better pass, it's sort of a blaque definition, 538 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 2: but one that I think is pretty instructive. 539 00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's also a realistic definition too if you 540 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,239 Speaker 1: think about it. Because you can't change the past one 541 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: way or another. You can only alter how you let 542 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: the past continue to affect you or not. And the 543 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: other thing I really want to say here right now, 544 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: because it can be confusing for me too when I 545 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: think about forgiveness and anger and stuff like that, is like, 546 00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 1: this is not No one is talking about a something 547 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: like throwing a switch or like, rather than feeling anger, 548 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: you feel forgiveness. That's actually counterproductive, as we'll see. Like 549 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: you like, you can't replace anger with forgiveness. Forgiveness is 550 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: meant to come after anger because you use anger or 551 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: hurt or resentment or whatever your version of that is 552 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: to to to protect and guard your own boundaries. So 553 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: it's unnatural for you to not have some sort of 554 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: negative emotion or negative response to being wronged. But you 555 00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: don't want to replace that or try to replace it 556 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: with forgiveness because you may accidentally trip up the process 557 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: and you're not really legitimately feeling forgiveness. You're basically just 558 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: setting yourself up to be wronged again. 559 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, my deal personally is Emily always talks about what 560 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 2: a forgiving person I am because I really crave. 561 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: To forgive. 562 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 2: I don't know, I was about to say crave forgiveness. 563 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 2: I crave forgiving. I guess it sounds funny, but I 564 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 2: just all I need is for someone to say they're 565 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 2: sorry for something, and then it's done. Nine times out 566 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: of ten, that's done for me. And as far as forgetting, like, 567 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 2: I'm a pretty good forgetter too. I don't know about 568 00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 2: like literally forgetting something, but I definitely look back on 569 00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 2: a lot of relationships, especially with like ex girlfriends that 570 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 2: were terrible, and go, oh that was so bad in there. 571 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: In that relationship, we. 572 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 2: Were pretty good, right, Sure, No, we weren't pretty good 573 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: at all. Right, I just have rose colored glasses. And 574 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: I think you and I are both like as podcasting 575 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: partners and family and team good about when we have 576 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 2: little dust ups for giving one another. If the other 577 00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:13,520 Speaker 2: person likes says they're sorry, like you and I both 578 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 2: get over that stuf pretty quickly. Yeah, which is yeah, 579 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:20,800 Speaker 2: it's very key though, you know, like, oh, yeah, you can't. 580 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 2: Forgiveness is like from the heart if you really if 581 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: you're hanging on to something, then you're not done with 582 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 2: it yet. 583 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: No, but so and that is so important, Chuck. That's 584 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 1: important for the individual to remember that if you if 585 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: you are unable to forgive, that means that you're you're 586 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: still hanging on to it. That doesn't mean you'll never forgive, 587 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:42,359 Speaker 1: And that also doesn't mean you have to hurry up 588 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 1: and forgive. It means you're still in the process and 589 00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 1: that's reaching the point where you can forgive. It's a 590 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 1: deliberate choice. From everything I've seen in the research, you 591 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 1: are making a deliberate choice to forgive somebody. But it's 592 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:55,719 Speaker 1: not throwing a switch. It's part of a process. And 593 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:58,720 Speaker 1: during that process, while you're on the road to forgiving 594 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 1: the person, you're still going to be kind of angry 595 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: at them. Maybe not the whole time, but every once 596 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,320 Speaker 1: in a while it might hit you before you've fully 597 00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 1: forgiven them, and then you're going to be mad about 598 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: it all over again. That's okay, that's normal, that's natural. 599 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: You can't really rush it. You can, but it's going 600 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: to be detrimental. What you want to do is just 601 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:16,920 Speaker 1: kind of let it play out and have faith that 602 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: if you're on the path of forgiveness, you'll ultimately will 603 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: forgive the person and things will be good again. 604 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and depending on your life and your childhood, like 605 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: you probably have an inclination or an instinct to forgive 606 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 2: or not based on what you saw, what was modeled. 607 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,840 Speaker 2: There's both nature and nurture involved. But I think people 608 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 2: generally have an instinct of revenge or forgiveness, and to 609 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,640 Speaker 2: do one of the other that is against that instinct 610 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 2: requires great effort, especially in the case of forgiveness, because 611 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 2: you may not be inclined to be a forgiver at all. 612 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: That doesn't mean something's wrong with you. That just means 613 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 2: that's probably what you saw growing up, or maybe something 614 00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: happened to you when you were young that makes it 615 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 2: harder for you. But it's still possible to get there. 616 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 2: It just might be tougher. 617 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: Well, what's neat is another thing that the feel of 618 00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,160 Speaker 1: psychology is telling us about forgiveness is that it can 619 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: be taught. You can learn to forgive. Even if you 620 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: were raised in an unforgiving environment where you never learned 621 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,440 Speaker 1: how to do that, you can learn how to do it. 622 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: And I say we kind of jump to those to 623 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,799 Speaker 1: how to forgive before we go into physical health because 624 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: I feel like we're kind of there right now. Yeah, well, 625 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:28,760 Speaker 1: let's take a break. 626 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 2: Okay, let's take our final break, and we'll talk about 627 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 2: that when we get back, as well as this one 628 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,239 Speaker 2: sort of interesting study i'd like to hit real quick too. 629 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 3: Okay, learn and start with Joshua job stuff. 630 00:36:53,600 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: You shine up, all right. 631 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:13,279 Speaker 2: So there's this study that Dave dug up that I 632 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 2: thought was interesting. 633 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:19,359 Speaker 1: I think it's flawed. But Inreme Social psychology, they took 634 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 1: forty six people. They divided them into two groups. 635 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 2: One wrote about a time when they had something some 636 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,439 Speaker 2: wrong committed against them, but they forgave. The other wrote 637 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 2: about a time when they had something wrong committed against them, 638 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 2: but they did not forgive. And then they told those 639 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:36,880 Speaker 2: people to stand at the bottom of a hill to 640 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 2: estimate how steep it was, and also, in a separate 641 00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 2: part of the study, to jump as high as they could. 642 00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: The unforgiving group guessed that the incline was five degrees 643 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: steeper on average than the forgiving, and the forgivers jumped 644 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:57,399 Speaker 2: seven centimeters higher. So the takeaway here is is you 645 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 2: literally it's more difficult for you. You see the world 646 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 2: as being more difficult and steeper, and you can't jump 647 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,480 Speaker 2: as high and you can't accomplish as much if you're 648 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 2: holding on to that all kinds of red flags study, 649 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 2: especially when it comes to the jumping part. Yeah, but 650 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,840 Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting the guessing the incline of 651 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:19,200 Speaker 2: the hill. 652 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: There may be something to that. Well, yeah, and I 653 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: mean it is backed up, Chuck, by the physical the 654 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:31,160 Speaker 1: physiological studies of how stress and anger affect you and 655 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: how releasing those can actually help you. There's a lot 656 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,760 Speaker 1: of research that shows that you can suffer from chronic 657 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: stress when you're angry all the time, and that that's 658 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 1: tied to everything from high blood pressure to diabetes to 659 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:50,360 Speaker 1: poor cardiovascular outcomes. Just a whole host of chronic conditions 660 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: can be traced back to chronic stress, and chronic stress 661 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: can be traced back to chronic anger. And what they're 662 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 1: discovering is that forgiveness can actually undo that can actually 663 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: reverse that. There was a study that rated people based 664 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 1: on the life stresses they'd had, and they apparently recruited 665 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: participants for the study who'd been through a lot of 666 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,920 Speaker 1: stress so much so that they were basically always chronically 667 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 1: stressed because they have had so many terrible events in 668 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: their life, and there was one group that actually did 669 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 1: not have poor health compared to the rest of the group. 670 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: And they found that when they gave them a test 671 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: of forgiveness of how forgiving they were generally, they found 672 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,880 Speaker 1: that this subset was actually overall a very forgiving group 673 00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 1: and that that somehow was battling back the chronic stress 674 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: or the effects of chronic stress on their health in life. 675 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that makes complete sense. If 676 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,480 Speaker 2: you were someone who really has a problem with forgiving 677 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,360 Speaker 2: and just holds on to these deep, deep resentments against people, 678 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 2: usually against people very close to you in your family, 679 00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 2: even that just that can't be good for you physically. 680 00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,640 Speaker 2: I've seen it happen. I don't want to get too personal, 681 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,480 Speaker 2: but there are people in my family who haven't spoken 682 00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: for twenty plus years over dumb stuff that it's like, 683 00:40:20,960 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: you see that kind of like stubbornness coupled with resentment, 684 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,919 Speaker 2: and it's just, man, that is just no way to live. Yeah, 685 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:30,799 Speaker 2: no way to live. 686 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:35,759 Speaker 1: Yeah. So there was another one that another study that 687 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: Dave turned up that shows that even like in a 688 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:45,240 Speaker 1: very short term, thinking about holding a grudge can actually 689 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: affect you physiologically by activating your sympathetic nervous system, as 690 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: Dave put to the battle or skidaddle impulse. And they 691 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: found that this these they cut these two groups into 692 00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,400 Speaker 1: or they cut the participants into two groups. All of 693 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,600 Speaker 1: the people had to think about some time when they 694 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:07,280 Speaker 1: were deeply wronged in the past, and then one group 695 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 1: was taken through an exercise where they learned to forgive 696 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: the person. The other group, this is so mean, was 697 00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 1: encouraged to hold a grudge. They were basically taught, they 698 00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:18,840 Speaker 1: went through an exercise to hold a grudge and be 699 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:23,120 Speaker 1: angry and resentment was resentful about that. And they found 700 00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,320 Speaker 1: that the people who were taught to hold the grudge 701 00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:29,520 Speaker 1: had elevated skin conductance, which meant their nervous system was aroused, 702 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 1: higher arterial blood pressure, not good. They also had muscle 703 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: tension in the brow area you know when your brows 704 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,280 Speaker 1: furrowed when you're stressed out or madge, and that they 705 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: the symptoms. Even after they went through an exercise to 706 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,560 Speaker 1: basically de escalate everything, the symptoms persisted. And this was 707 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: just an exercise where you were just thinking about being 708 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: wronged and then holding a grudge about it. Just like 709 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: probably this was like an hour out of their lives 710 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,399 Speaker 1: and that was the effects. That was the findings of that. 711 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that yes, anger can affect you physically, 712 00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: and what they haven't we don't have the reams of 713 00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,480 Speaker 1: data that we have supporting it like we do that 714 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: anger hurts you physically, But there seems to be the 715 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: opposite of that holds true, which is releasing that anger, 716 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: which is forgiveness in whatever form it takes, can actually 717 00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 1: improve your health as well. 718 00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:28,240 Speaker 2: Right earlier in the episode, we were talking about religion. 719 00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,040 Speaker 2: All religions talk extensively about forgiveness and when they do 720 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:37,440 Speaker 2: studies these days, usually like questionnaires and stuff. Depending on 721 00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 2: the studies you look at, you would think religiosity does 722 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:46,840 Speaker 2: play a role in that people who describe themselves as religious, 723 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 2: supposedly in some studies are two and a half times 724 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,040 Speaker 2: more likely to say that others should be forgiven unconditionally. 725 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,880 Speaker 2: But I know you found some studies that found that 726 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: religiosity does not play as big a role as a 727 00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:04,760 Speaker 2: lot of people think it does, and that sometimes religious 728 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 2: people may be more inclined to say that they are 729 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:11,680 Speaker 2: forgiving when they aren't because it's the right thing to do. 730 00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, the study found that when when you ask basically, 731 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: when you survey them, people who are religious tend to 732 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: come off as more forgiving. They self report is forgiving, 733 00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: but then if you ask them other certain questions, I 734 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:30,040 Speaker 1: guess the in real world situations, they're no more forgiving 735 00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,279 Speaker 1: than other people. But so that would be an interpretation 736 00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: that they think they're more forgiving or tell people they're 737 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: more forgiving than they actually are. But there was another 738 00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: way to look at it too, and they went back 739 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,279 Speaker 1: and followed up on that study and they found that 740 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,919 Speaker 1: over a longer term, people who are religious actually do 741 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: tend to be more forgiving in their lives. It wasn't 742 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: like the most set in stone study, but I found 743 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,719 Speaker 1: it interesting that they were. They had it harder. The 744 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: religious people in this study had more difficulty in relating 745 00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,759 Speaker 1: grudges that they're carrying around compared to the control group 746 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: of people who weren't religious. Yeah, makes sense. Sure there 747 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: was some redemption there. Yeah. 748 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,640 Speaker 2: As far as how to forgive, like we said, hopefully 749 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 2: we've gotten it through that is something you can learn. 750 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 2: If you are not an inherent forgiver, you can learn 751 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 2: how to through practice. There's a psychologist named Worthington, Everett Worthington, 752 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,440 Speaker 2: Edward Everett, Everett Worthington, there should be a third after that, 753 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:37,120 Speaker 2: if he asked, I. 754 00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:38,120 Speaker 1: Mean, totally should be. 755 00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 2: And Worthington has developed a reach model which we'll go through. 756 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,239 Speaker 2: It's an acronym. 757 00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: Of course. 758 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,400 Speaker 2: Recall is the first step, and that's to really recall 759 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 2: the event in detail, but in the sort of an 760 00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:57,840 Speaker 2: objective way, and not necessarily something that was done to you, 761 00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,479 Speaker 2: but just to look at the detail of it, try 762 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,920 Speaker 2: not to judge yourself or the other person, just simply 763 00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:05,560 Speaker 2: bring that back to your mind. 764 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:07,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, And the point of that is to feel the 765 00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: feelings like we have. We humans have such a tendency 766 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,960 Speaker 1: to try to get away from negative feelings and run 767 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: toward positive feelings. And I think Worthington's position is that 768 00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: we have to feel whatever feelings are associated with it, 769 00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: and that's a huge part of it. That's we have 770 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: to go through that experience. It's part of the recall. 771 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,359 Speaker 2: Right to the E stands for empathy. This is one 772 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,200 Speaker 2: that is I don't know about controversial, but it's not 773 00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,920 Speaker 2: everyone agrees at all on whether or not you need 774 00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 2: to actually have empathy to forgive. But empathy can certainly 775 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 2: help you forgive. If someone has broken into your home 776 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,399 Speaker 2: and stolen from you, it might help to forgive them. 777 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 2: To empathize and think about where they may be in 778 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 2: their life to feel like they needed to do something 779 00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,520 Speaker 2: like that is one example. 780 00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, And he points out also like you're not using 781 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,799 Speaker 1: their behavior right, you're just thinking about them beyond just 782 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,799 Speaker 1: a villain or criminal or a person who wronged you, 783 00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: for sure. And actually we should say Everett Worthington had 784 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: to put his money where his mouth was because his 785 00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: mother was actually murdered by a burglar. Yeah, I think 786 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,720 Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety seven, yep. And he put himself 787 00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:22,560 Speaker 1: through this the Reach method, and he said he came 788 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: out on the other side better off than he had been. 789 00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,239 Speaker 2: And I think he was already doing this right. That 790 00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:29,600 Speaker 2: didn't inspire his career, did it? 791 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,920 Speaker 1: No? No, I think he was already doing it. Coincidentally, Wow, 792 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:37,200 Speaker 1: the ironies. So the A stands for altruistic gift. And 793 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,480 Speaker 1: the point of this is that you realize that you 794 00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:47,279 Speaker 1: were actually giving a gift by forgiving somebody, even I 795 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,239 Speaker 1: guess if you don't tell them, even if you don't 796 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,960 Speaker 1: necessarily empathize with them. But the way you do this, 797 00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,560 Speaker 1: the way you recognize that your forgiveness is an altruistic gift, 798 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,000 Speaker 1: is to think about times where you've wronged somebody and 799 00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:03,520 Speaker 1: that they've been forgiven or forgiving, and even if you 800 00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,840 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily deserve it, and what a gift that that was, 801 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,279 Speaker 1: you're kind of bringing it to mind, which I think 802 00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,759 Speaker 1: is really suspiciously kind of tied in with empathizing. 803 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 2: If you ask me, yeah, I mean he was trying 804 00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,840 Speaker 2: to make the word reach sure, commit to. This is 805 00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:21,920 Speaker 2: what I mentioned earlier about telling someone else that necessarily 806 00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,239 Speaker 2: have to be the person you're forgiving, although that could 807 00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 2: help if you want to go that route, but telling 808 00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:31,000 Speaker 2: someone else, at least in Worthington's mind, makes it, gives 809 00:47:31,040 --> 00:47:34,400 Speaker 2: it a degree of permanence. Man it basically makes it 810 00:47:34,440 --> 00:47:39,320 Speaker 2: part of your story, like you're changing the story essentially exactly. 811 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: And then hold, and this is very important too that 812 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: we said earlier you can forgive and it doesn't necessarily 813 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,480 Speaker 1: mean you're going to forget. So when you do remember 814 00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: that kind of thing, you're still going through the process 815 00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,839 Speaker 1: and you're still angered by it. You're still hurt by it, 816 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: but you're on the path of forgiveness. You have to 817 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:59,799 Speaker 1: hold on to the idea that you're working on for 818 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,759 Speaker 1: giving them. That is not an instantaneous thing, So you 819 00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: have to hold the fact that you're forgiving them even 820 00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: in the face of, you know, being triggered by or 821 00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,200 Speaker 1: flooded by this again when you think about the memory 822 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:10,480 Speaker 1: of it. 823 00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:14,720 Speaker 2: Right, Luskin has a nine step process, which we weren't 824 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,960 Speaker 2: We're not going to really get into, but step eight 825 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:20,400 Speaker 2: is interesting. Just like rim says, living well is the 826 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,160 Speaker 2: best revenge is the sort of the nuts and bolts 827 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:26,680 Speaker 2: of number eight, and there's something to be said for that, 828 00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 2: but I think it also makes it much harder to 829 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:32,880 Speaker 2: forgive and move on if you're not able to live well. 830 00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,200 Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean you know, money and riches and 831 00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:38,920 Speaker 2: stuff like that, right, that means just living a full life. 832 00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 2: But if you were not able to forgive and get 833 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,360 Speaker 2: past that, I mean, there are plenty of movies of 834 00:48:43,400 --> 00:48:46,480 Speaker 2: people that have been have some awful thing from their 835 00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,319 Speaker 2: past that they're just wallowing in all these years later, 836 00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,360 Speaker 2: and that's the central plot of the film. 837 00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:58,239 Speaker 1: You know, she devil Hoosiers, that's right, but that's I mean, 838 00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:01,600 Speaker 1: that's the that's the point of forgiveness is too, is 839 00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,919 Speaker 1: to free yourself, to find peace within yourself. And yes, 840 00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,360 Speaker 1: it's great for the person who wronged you if you 841 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,879 Speaker 1: overtly forgive them and let them know, but you don't 842 00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,800 Speaker 1: have to. And then also, Chuck, there's a whole school 843 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: thought in psychology that says, not only do you not 844 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,440 Speaker 1: have to tell the person that you're forgiving them, you 845 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,000 Speaker 1: don't have to forgive them right at all, and that 846 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: there's this this whole almost kind of not culty but 847 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:34,400 Speaker 1: really kind of dogmatic idea that if you don't follow 848 00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:38,080 Speaker 1: these steps and you don't like, genuinely fully forgive somebody, 849 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: you really haven't worked out of the process. There's something 850 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,160 Speaker 1: wrong with you. Maybe you're an unforgiving person and that 851 00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:48,680 Speaker 1: makes you tacky. That's what psychologists call it. And there's 852 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,000 Speaker 1: a whole group of psychologists say no, no, no, there's 853 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: there's way more to this process than just you know, 854 00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,799 Speaker 1: nine steps or the reach method like there, there's it's 855 00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,560 Speaker 1: more nuanced than that, and that you can be a 856 00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,200 Speaker 1: fully functioning, emotionally developed person who says, you know what, 857 00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: I don't forgive you, I may never forgive you. But 858 00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,279 Speaker 1: I'm still going on with my life, right, And if 859 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,800 Speaker 1: the point of forgiveness is to achieve peace in yourself, 860 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: If you can achieve peace in yourself and you do 861 00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,360 Speaker 1: it without forgiving somebody because you don't want to forgive 862 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,839 Speaker 1: them or you don't feel like you should forgive them, 863 00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,680 Speaker 1: then that's okay too. As long as you're getting inner peace, 864 00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:29,440 Speaker 1: that's the point. 865 00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there is a school of thoughts saying that 866 00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,280 Speaker 2: in cases where like it's a harm has been committed 867 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:41,000 Speaker 2: to you that could happen again, you may be more 868 00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 2: likely to have that harm committed to you again if 869 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,880 Speaker 2: you do forgive too much. Yeah, there is research about 870 00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,359 Speaker 2: spousal abuse that when you are too or when you're 871 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,799 Speaker 2: quick to forgive the abuser, then you are victimized more 872 00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:59,160 Speaker 2: regularly than spouse's who aren't as forgiving, And that's based 873 00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:02,719 Speaker 2: on operant learning. Basically, you're less likely to engage in 874 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,480 Speaker 2: a behavior that has a negative consequence. So they've done 875 00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 2: plenty of research on that, and a lot of psychologists say, like, yeah, 876 00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 2: forgiveness is great, but while you shouldn't be bitter, there 877 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,560 Speaker 2: are a lot of times when you should not forgive 878 00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,080 Speaker 2: somebody and that's okay, Yeah. 879 00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:22,600 Speaker 1: There's a whole There's an article from nineteen ninety nine 880 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:26,319 Speaker 1: on Psychology Today called Must We Forgive? And it is 881 00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:30,600 Speaker 1: really interesting. It's fascinating that this psychologist writes about probably 882 00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:33,400 Speaker 1: half a dozen or more people and they're different individual 883 00:51:33,440 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: circumstances and the reasons they chose not to forgive, and 884 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,480 Speaker 1: she kind of pigeonholes them into like three general categories, 885 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,200 Speaker 1: but because psychologists love doing that. But it's a really 886 00:51:45,239 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: compelling article and it's definitely worth reading, and it provides 887 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,120 Speaker 1: this kind of alternative idea that like, no, there's definitely 888 00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,920 Speaker 1: situations where some people don't deserve your forgiveness. One of 889 00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:58,920 Speaker 1: the chief among them is if you say, like a 890 00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:02,080 Speaker 1: sibling or a family member of some sort you have 891 00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:05,200 Speaker 1: a like some sort of falling out with or they've 892 00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,160 Speaker 1: wronged you, and you choose not to forgive them. You 893 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,080 Speaker 1: might feel tremendous pressure from the rest of your family 894 00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:13,680 Speaker 1: to just go ahead and forgive them. That's a terrible 895 00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,040 Speaker 1: reason to forgive somebody. And if you do forgive them 896 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,799 Speaker 1: under those circumstances, or say because your religion decrees it, 897 00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:24,160 Speaker 1: you're like, that's not full forgiveness, and it may actually 898 00:52:24,239 --> 00:52:29,279 Speaker 1: harm you because you may suffer from a distorted self 899 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:33,719 Speaker 1: image or lowered self respect because you basically went back 900 00:52:33,719 --> 00:52:36,240 Speaker 1: to this person who not only wronged you in the past, 901 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: is unrepentant about it, but it's just going to continue 902 00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 1: the behavior again in the future. So there's definitely instances 903 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: that where you probably shouldn't forgive, But that doesn't mean 904 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,279 Speaker 1: that you should be stuck in resentment and anger and 905 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:53,200 Speaker 1: letting that person have power over your life. You might 906 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,479 Speaker 1: just need to move on without them and without forgiving them, 907 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,680 Speaker 1: and you can make that work as well. 908 00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there was one terrible story that you 909 00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,759 Speaker 2: said about the woman who as a child had this 910 00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:08,040 Speaker 2: terribly bullying and abusive older brother. 911 00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:09,880 Speaker 1: And we won't even. 912 00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,040 Speaker 2: Talk about the awful things this guy did, but the 913 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,880 Speaker 2: parents were really always pushing like, oh, he just doesn't 914 00:53:16,160 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 2: he doesn't know how to say he loves you, he 915 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:19,000 Speaker 2: doesn't know how to talk to you, so he does 916 00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,120 Speaker 2: these things and you really need to forgive him. And 917 00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 2: that's just that's bonkers. You know, that is a situation 918 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 2: where you were doing such great harm as a parent 919 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,680 Speaker 2: to teach your daughter to accept this kind of behavior. 920 00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,239 Speaker 2: And not only accept it but forgive it. It's like 921 00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 2: just setting her up for unless she really therapies through 922 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 2: that stuff later in life of just a series of 923 00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:47,719 Speaker 2: terrible relationships. So exactly, yes, yes he can't. Forgiveness isn't 924 00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,759 Speaker 2: always the thing. I have a friend who had a 925 00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,600 Speaker 2: terrible thing happened to him when he was younger, and 926 00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,000 Speaker 2: we talked a lot about this, and he has forgiven 927 00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,000 Speaker 2: that person in his heart and I was like, well, 928 00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,759 Speaker 2: I haven't, and it's like I'm still angry about it. 929 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:10,480 Speaker 2: And he was like thanks, Like that helps, Like I'm 930 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,440 Speaker 2: angry and have not forgiven on his behalf. And I 931 00:54:13,480 --> 00:54:15,040 Speaker 2: thought he was going to say like, no, man, you 932 00:54:15,080 --> 00:54:16,799 Speaker 2: need to do the same, and he was like brother, 933 00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,279 Speaker 2: he was like thank you man, Yeah, I appreciate that. 934 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. And I think that's another thing worth pointing out too, 935 00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:27,320 Speaker 1: is we have this concept of people who forgive others 936 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:31,560 Speaker 1: being saintly. Yeah, And it's not necessarily that kind of 937 00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,760 Speaker 1: a thing. It's not necessarily that kind of a process. 938 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes it is just straight up self preservation. Like you are, 939 00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:40,640 Speaker 1: that's the way that you're going to get to a 940 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:42,760 Speaker 1: point where you can feel peace again in your life 941 00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:44,759 Speaker 1: and That doesn't mean you're a saint, or you're even 942 00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:47,560 Speaker 1: feeling saintly or you're conducting yourself in a saintly manner, 943 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:49,960 Speaker 1: And that doesn't matter as long as you're feeling inner 944 00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:52,440 Speaker 1: peace in your life is no longer turmoil and this 945 00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:55,160 Speaker 1: person who wronged you doesn't have power over you any longer. 946 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:56,879 Speaker 1: That's the point of forgiveness. 947 00:54:57,040 --> 00:54:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that was totally the deal in his case, 948 00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,600 Speaker 2: is that was his only way forward to healing himself. 949 00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,040 Speaker 2: But since this wasn't something that happened to me, I 950 00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:10,120 Speaker 2: was able to not forgive and remain upset about it, 951 00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:12,319 Speaker 2: and he was okay with that. 952 00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:15,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, And still to this day, you won't buy that 953 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:20,600 Speaker 1: guy of beers Man. So there's one other thing that 954 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:23,000 Speaker 1: has started to kind of come out of the shadows 955 00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:25,600 Speaker 1: that's just getting picked up by psychology as far as 956 00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,480 Speaker 1: forgiveness goes in it's self forgiveness, And we don't really 957 00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:30,239 Speaker 1: have room to talk about that here, but it's worth 958 00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:33,719 Speaker 1: exploring sometime maybe in short stuff. Yeah, that's a big deal. 959 00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:36,920 Speaker 2: Just a lot of times when I'm beating up on myself, 960 00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,320 Speaker 2: Emily says, you need to be nicer to my friend. 961 00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,200 Speaker 1: Oh, I know, you've told that before. I was just 962 00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,520 Speaker 1: in one of the sweetest things I've ever heard. What 963 00:55:44,600 --> 00:55:48,520 Speaker 1: a kind thing to say. It works. You know who 964 00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:54,359 Speaker 1: needs to hear that? Don Henley, You got anything else 965 00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,239 Speaker 1: on forgiveness? Yeah, nothing else. This is a good way 966 00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:00,279 Speaker 1: to eat philosophical discussion. I like these, agreed. Thanks a 967 00:56:00,320 --> 00:56:02,560 Speaker 1: lot to Dave Bruce for helping us out with this one. 968 00:56:03,120 --> 00:56:06,880 Speaker 1: And if you want to know more about forgiveness, you 969 00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,600 Speaker 1: should seriously go out and do some reading, especially if 970 00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,520 Speaker 1: you have something to forgive. It's not something you necessarily 971 00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:16,799 Speaker 1: can understand just instinctively. It helps to see what the 972 00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:19,960 Speaker 1: experts say. So maybe go explore that and free yourself. 973 00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:22,520 Speaker 1: Since I said free yourself, that of course means it's 974 00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:23,439 Speaker 1: time for listener maw. 975 00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:28,040 Speaker 2: I'm gonna call this dental art. Hey, guys, been a 976 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 2: listener for a while. I've nearly finished with the sandwiching method. 977 00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 2: Before I knew it was even cool, we were talking 978 00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,439 Speaker 2: a few shows. You were talking a few shows back 979 00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:42,480 Speaker 2: before the holidays about putting a kidney stone and Chuck's 980 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,160 Speaker 2: replacement tooth. This would be unusual, but people actually get 981 00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,040 Speaker 2: custom in lays and artwork made for their crowns inlayser 982 00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,120 Speaker 2: generally gold or gymstone with a custom artwork, and it's 983 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 2: referred to as a tooth tattoo, which is hand painted 984 00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,400 Speaker 2: onto the crown before it gets a final clot of glaze. 985 00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:00,720 Speaker 2: The most common request here in the Chicago Land area 986 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:02,320 Speaker 2: are sports logos. 987 00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,400 Speaker 1: Oh no, like a little Chicago Cubs logo. 988 00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:09,640 Speaker 2: Too, But I've seen names, company logos, even a tiny 989 00:57:09,719 --> 00:57:12,799 Speaker 2: version of Starry Night on a tooth. While a lot 990 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,960 Speaker 2: of modern crown in Bridge manufacturing has gone digital, highly 991 00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,600 Speaker 2: leveraging cam, A, CAD and three D printing for most restorations, 992 00:57:19,960 --> 00:57:23,640 Speaker 2: tooth tattoos are unique manifestation of the relatively unknown artistry 993 00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,360 Speaker 2: of a subset of dental technicians. 994 00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:26,160 Speaker 1: Wow. 995 00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:28,320 Speaker 2: While I recognize the dentistry as a whole as widely 996 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 2: disliked and a pain to endure, I appreciate you guys 997 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:36,240 Speaker 2: probably unknowingly helped to destigmatize restorative dental work by openly 998 00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,160 Speaker 2: talking about your dealings with it. Toothware and decay is 999 00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,280 Speaker 2: part of the human condition. No need for shame. After all, 1000 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,760 Speaker 2: we will keep me and my CADRA employed and happily 1001 00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,880 Speaker 2: listening to stuff you should know. Many regards that is 1002 00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,960 Speaker 2: from Eric Crowley or Crowley probably Crowley. 1003 00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,760 Speaker 1: I'm going with Crowley in park Ridge, Illinois. Very nice. 1004 00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,520 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, Eric, that's awesome. Can you imagine seeing 1005 00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,400 Speaker 1: Starry Night on a tooth? I gotta look that up. Wonderful. 1006 00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,560 Speaker 1: I'd have this scream that's a good one, and then 1007 00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: you could scream whenever you reveal it too. Yeah, just 1008 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:12,000 Speaker 1: freak people out. And speaking of sports teams, Chuck, I 1009 00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,840 Speaker 1: feel like we should congratulate our Georgia Bulldogs for winning 1010 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:16,280 Speaker 1: the national championship. 1011 00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:20,360 Speaker 2: Yes, never thought I would see the day. What a great, 1012 00:58:20,480 --> 00:58:26,480 Speaker 2: great game, Just unbelievable feeling. Two championships in three months 1013 00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:28,880 Speaker 2: for this long suffering Atlanta slash Georgia van. 1014 00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:30,280 Speaker 1: I know, it's amazing. 1015 00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,920 Speaker 2: I don't even know how to reconcile these feelings that 1016 00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:33,920 Speaker 2: I'm having lately. 1017 00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,200 Speaker 1: And they'll be robbed from you next year. Don't worry. 1018 00:58:37,240 --> 00:58:39,400 Speaker 1: I'll show her back to normal. But that is pretty 1019 00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,960 Speaker 1: great to go out on a highlight. Probably that was great. 1020 00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,080 Speaker 1: Go dogs, Go dogs, indeed. And if you want to 1021 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,880 Speaker 1: get in touch with Chuck and I and Jerry or 1022 00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,320 Speaker 1: Frank the Chair or Harry dogg even we can probably 1023 00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:54,520 Speaker 1: pass along emails you send. You can wrap your emails up, 1024 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,200 Speaker 1: spank them on the bottom, and send them off to 1025 00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:02,640 Speaker 1: stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. Stuff you Should Know 1026 00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,280 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts myheart Radio, 1027 00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:09,920 Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen 1028 00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:10,960 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.