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Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in history class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy D. Wilson, and we

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Speaker 1: are entering into part two of our two part episode

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Speaker 1: on Yosemite and James Hutchings. And in part one of

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Speaker 1: this we talked about the park a little bit, at

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Speaker 1: the Park of Yosemite as we know it today. We

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Speaker 1: also talked about its history in terms of when white

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Speaker 1: men first saw it and how James Hutchings started to

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Speaker 1: really build an identity in a life completely around promoting

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Speaker 1: this piece of land. And we're going to jump right

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Speaker 1: in on this second part uh in in the continuity

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Speaker 1: of the story, So we highly recommend that you listen

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Speaker 1: to part one first or you might be a little

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Speaker 1: bit confused. You will not have context for what we

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Speaker 1: were talking about. So, and in addition to the periodical

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Speaker 1: that we talked about last time, Hutchings also wrote the

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Speaker 1: books Scenes of Wonder and Curiosity in California Tourists Guide

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Speaker 1: to the Yosemite Valley, which published in eighteen sixty two,

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Speaker 1: and then later In the Heart of the Sierras, which

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Speaker 1: was published in As with his magazine. These books features

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Speaker 1: some really fantastic illustrations, and one of the things that's

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Speaker 1: uh quite fun about Hutching's writing is that he really

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Speaker 1: was not shy about writing about how affecting this landscape

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Speaker 1: could be. So in scenes of wondering curiosity, he wrote

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Speaker 1: the following about the feeling that one would get at

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Speaker 1: the end of the day, At the end of a

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Speaker 1: day spent in Yosemite, and he says, quote, as we

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Speaker 1: sit in the stillness and twilight of evening, thinking over

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Speaker 1: and conversing about the wondrous scenes our eyes have looked

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Speaker 1: upon this day, or listen in silence to the deep

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Speaker 1: music of the distant waterfalls, our hearts seemed to be

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Speaker 1: full too, overflowing with a sense of the grandeur, wildness, beauty,

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Speaker 1: and profoundness to be felt and enjoy when communing with

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Speaker 1: the glorious works of nature. In the opening of In

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Speaker 1: the Heart of the Sierra's, Hutchings bars quotes from a

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Speaker 1: wide range of people about Yosemite to establish the case

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Speaker 1: that it's truly a marvel. Everyone from geologists to Ralph

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Speaker 1: Waldo Emerson weighs in on these introductory pages. They all

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Speaker 1: praise the astonishing nature of the beauty that can be

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Speaker 1: found there. The book then goes on to relate the

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Speaker 1: history of Yosemite and how it was quote discovered by

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Speaker 1: white men, how the gold rush planted the seed of

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Speaker 1: resentment with the native population, and how the Mariposta War began,

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Speaker 1: and Uh, you'll remember James Savage, who was the man

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Speaker 1: that led the Mariposa Battalion. Uh, and Hutchings writing about

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Speaker 1: him is really interesting indeed, because according to the Hutchings account,

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Speaker 1: Savage took wives yes that was plural, with an s

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Speaker 1: at the end, from the Native Americans in the hopes

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Speaker 1: that doing so would prevent attacks on his home and business.

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Speaker 1: And also, in the Hutching version, one of Savage's squaws

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Speaker 1: as they are called in this in this book, told

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Speaker 1: him ahead of time that an attack on the mining

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Speaker 1: town was being planned by a group of Native American men.

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Speaker 1: A few years into their marriage, in eighteen sixty four,

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Speaker 1: James and Alvira purchased the Upper Hotel for four hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: Hutchings had been hoping to do this for a long

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Speaker 1: time beforehand because of issues that the hotel had had

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Speaker 1: from the beginning, but it took him a little while

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Speaker 1: to get the finances together to actually buy it. The

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Speaker 1: existing hotel was still pretty utilitarian at best, and when

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Speaker 1: we talked last time about how it's basically a frame

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Speaker 1: with some sheets, but permanent. But James and Elvirus bruced

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Speaker 1: it up a bit and opened it as the Hutchings House,

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Speaker 1: and James would later write of the hotel's issues and

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Speaker 1: his eventual acquisition of it, also in the Heart of

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Speaker 1: the Sierras, and in that he wrote quote owing to

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Speaker 1: a heavy indebtedness incurred in building the hotel and the

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Speaker 1: lack of success attending the first Fourth of July party

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Speaker 1: given for which extensive preparations had been made and from

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Speaker 1: which much had been expected, Its projectors and builders, unable

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Speaker 1: to meet their obligations, assigned it to creditors for their protection.

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Speaker 1: The following two years, it was least to Mr Charles Peck,

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Speaker 1: then to Mr p. Longhurst, after which it was either

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Speaker 1: let temporarily or remained closed until purchased by the writer

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Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty four. The couple eventually added on to

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Speaker 1: the existing structure, including a large common room known as

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Speaker 1: the Big Tree Room, so named because it had been

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Speaker 1: constructed around a cedar tree that was a hundred and

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Speaker 1: seventy five ft or fifty three meters tall. This had

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Speaker 1: started with as a sitting room with a dirt floor,

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Speaker 1: but it was later improved and floored and became this

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Speaker 1: dining room for people before it was eventually made into

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Speaker 1: a parlor. Yeah, there are some fantastic pictures of James

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Speaker 1: and Elvira sitting in this room and there on either

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Speaker 1: side of the tree trunk, and it's massive, so they

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Speaker 1: may as well sort of be very far apart in

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Speaker 1: different places. Um, But you can find pictures of those

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Speaker 1: online and we'll try to link some of the show notes.

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Speaker 1: The same year that the Hutchings purchased that hotel, they

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Speaker 1: also had their first child, Florence Hutchings. She would later

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Speaker 1: go by Flow, sometimes Floyd and even Flora, and Florence

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Speaker 1: was the first white child born in Yosemite on August

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four, and Flow love the outdoors. She was

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Speaker 1: quite a tomboy, and she often complained that she had

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Speaker 1: not been born a boy. While initially the whole family

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Speaker 1: was involved in running the hotel, eventually it was Elvira's mother,

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Speaker 1: flor Antha T. Sprote, who really kept things running as

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Speaker 1: James was really busy working to be basically the ambassador

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Speaker 1: of Yosemite, and Alvira immersed herself and her interests in

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Speaker 1: music and botany. Since Florentha had experience running a boarding house,

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Speaker 1: running a lodge came pretty naturally to her. It was

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Speaker 1: basically an extension of what she was already used to doing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you'll recall from the first episode, it was it

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Speaker 1: was at her boarding house that James actually met Elvira,

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Speaker 1: so she had been doing that in San Francisco for

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Speaker 1: quite a time before they were at Yosemite, and from

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Speaker 1: the beginning of the hotel's life as Hutchings House there

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Speaker 1: were once again serious financial and legal problems. On June

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty four, President Abraham Lincoln signed an Act of

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Speaker 1: Congress that transferred ownership of Yosemite Valley and the Mariposa

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Speaker 1: Grove of Giant Sequoias to the state of California. That

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Speaker 1: transfer was a land grant to the state that was

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Speaker 1: not to be settled, which meant that the property that

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Speaker 1: the Hutchings had purchased just two months before this was

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Speaker 1: not considered a legal claim. That had all come about

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Speaker 1: because California Senator John Conniss had introduced the land grant

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Speaker 1: to Congress with the goal of conserving the land. He

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Speaker 1: and like minded thinkers of the day didn't want Yosemite

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Speaker 1: to become like Niagara Falls, which had been overrun with

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Speaker 1: tourist development. Congress, quite busy at the time with the

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Speaker 1: Civil War, was rather quick to go forward at the

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Speaker 1: Yosemit Grant, probably so they could move on to the

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Speaker 1: more pressing business that they had at hand. The fact

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Speaker 1: that there were property owners in Yosemite already had not

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Speaker 1: really been disclosed by Conness when he was questioned about

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Speaker 1: this whole land grant, and that lack of disclosure is

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Speaker 1: going to play a big part in things coming up.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to all of that, let's pause

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Speaker 1: really quickly for a brief word from one of our

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Speaker 1: fantastic sponsors, so to get back into our story. Hutchings

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Speaker 1: initially was really pretty excited about the land grant. He

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Speaker 1: thought like, Yeah, we're going to preserve this land that

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Speaker 1: I love so much. But that was before it was

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Speaker 1: made plain to him that his hotel did not fit

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Speaker 1: into the state legislature's plans. It was seen instead by

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Speaker 1: some as a case of the Hutchings wanting to turn

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Speaker 1: a profit off of the natural beauty of the valley

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Speaker 1: rather than as the home base of Yosemite's ambassadors, which

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Speaker 1: is how Hutchings saw it. And in addition to the hotel,

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Speaker 1: James Hutchings had all so filed a preemption claim on

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Speaker 1: a large land parcel that up to that point was

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Speaker 1: just awaiting a survey team, and the state said that

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Speaker 1: that was invalid as well. For the next decade, a

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Speaker 1: bitter battle played out between Hutchings and the state government.

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Speaker 1: Initially after the land transfer, the state told James and

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Speaker 1: Elvira that they need to sign a lease for the

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Speaker 1: hotel since the state owned the land, but Hutchings fought

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Speaker 1: the state. And Hutchings was not the only person who

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Speaker 1: had a land claim in Yosemite. Another man, James C. Lemon,

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Speaker 1: had built a cabin there as well, and he was

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Speaker 1: in the same boat as Hutchings, and he also fought

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Speaker 1: the state. Lamon had actually helped build the Upper Hotel

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Speaker 1: when it was initially constructed, and the year after it

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Speaker 1: was completed, he made a claim on the upper end

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Speaker 1: of the valley and established a garden in an orchard.

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Speaker 1: In addition to constructing a little log cabin there. Both

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Speaker 1: Hutchings and Lemon were notified by the Board of Yosemite

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Speaker 1: Commissioners appointed by the state that they would need to

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Speaker 1: lease their property from the state by a given dead

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Speaker 1: one or that have to leave, and both men turned

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Speaker 1: down those options. And according to Hutchings, when he spoke

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Speaker 1: with a Senator Pomeroy of Kansas, who served on the

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Speaker 1: United States Committee of Public Lands, that is, when it

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Speaker 1: came to light that commis had claimed that the land

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Speaker 1: had no settlers, Hutchings felt that this really proved that

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Speaker 1: he should have had protected rights as a land claimant. Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: why would that information have been withheld Throughout all of

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Speaker 1: this legal wrangling There were, of course, huge gaps in

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Speaker 1: terms of anything happening. Committees would recess or other delays

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Speaker 1: would come up in the government schedule. And throughout it all,

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Speaker 1: Hutchings occupied his time by promoting Yosemite, both in writing

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Speaker 1: and in giving lectures. They claimed to give quote eight

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Speaker 1: seven illustrated lectures on Yosemite, sometimes to audiences of over

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Speaker 1: three thousand. He did so, he claimed for three reasons,

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Speaker 1: to keep himself busy, to make a little money, and

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Speaker 1: to bring more attention to quote the marvelous grandeur of scenery.

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Speaker 1: In July eight seventy one, the California Supreme Court issued

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Speaker 1: the following ruling in another land claim case. Quote. If

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Speaker 1: a qualified preemption or enter upon a portion of the

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Speaker 1: public domain with the intention to preempt the same, and

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Speaker 1: performs all the acts necessary to perfect his preemptive right,

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Speaker 1: except the payment of the purchase price, the government may, nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: at any time before the price is actually paid or tendered,

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Speaker 1: devote the land to another purpose, and thereby wholly defeat

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Speaker 1: the right of preemption. So basically, they're saying, even if

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Speaker 1: someone is trying to buy a piece of land. For example,

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Speaker 1: James Hutchings claimed uh big land parcel that had not

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Speaker 1: yet been surveyed, and so that deal was not yet done.

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Speaker 1: If they were making that claim but they hadn't paid

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Speaker 1: for it, and the state came in and wanted to

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Speaker 1: do something else, as long as the money hadn't changed hands,

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Speaker 1: there was nothing to be done for it. That judgment

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Speaker 1: was appealed to the United States Supreme Court, but ruling

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Speaker 1: was upheld. Hutchings suggests in his writing about all of

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Speaker 1: this that he that if he had made a land

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Speaker 1: claim in a less beautiful place, the government never would

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Speaker 1: have gone to all this trouble. Yeah, he really felt

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Speaker 1: like at the at the end of the day, because

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Speaker 1: Yosemite was so spectacular, it was of more interest to

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Speaker 1: the state than if it had been like a park

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Speaker 1: that was not so filled with wonders. Uh. And in

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Speaker 1: eighteen seventy four, the state of California finally paid out

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Speaker 1: a twenty four thousand dollars settlement to the Hutchings for

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Speaker 1: their land and hotel. Lamon received twelve thousand dollars. And

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Speaker 1: as this tale develops in Hutchings writing, he makes it

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Speaker 1: quite clear that he actually thinks that the state treated

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Speaker 1: him relatively well, but that the blame should sit squarely

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Speaker 1: with Senator John Connis and his deception that started all

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Speaker 1: of this trouble. The Hutchings family finally left their hotel

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Speaker 1: behind and moved to San Francisco. Not long after they

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Speaker 1: settled in San Francisco, James and Alvira divorced. James, however,

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Speaker 1: continue to live with Alvira's mother, as did the couple's children,

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Speaker 1: and four years later James remarried his new wife. Augustus

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Speaker 1: Sweetland had been their next our neighbor. Yeah, Elvira kind

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Speaker 1: of took off to do her own thing. Uh. That's

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Speaker 1: why James stayed with the family and her and Elvira's mother. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And during that decade of turmoil that they had been undergoing,

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Speaker 1: the Hutchings also became entwined with the life of a

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Speaker 1: man who also had a long term relationship with Yosemite Valley,

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Speaker 1: and in many ways he is more famous in that

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Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty nine, the pair hired a Scotsman named

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Speaker 1: John Weir to build and run a sawmill on their property,

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Speaker 1: and there was tension from the start between the two men.

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Speaker 1: Each of them felt as though he was the expert

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Speaker 1: and the spokesperson for Yosemite. And while Hutchings had at

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Speaker 1: that point two decades of writing on the matter as

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Speaker 1: his credentials, whereas Weir had only been in the United States,

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Speaker 1: I think like a year and a half at that point.

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Speaker 1: People really responded Tom Weir, and that's why he kind

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Speaker 1: of garnered a great deal of attention. He is in

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Speaker 1: most of the historical pictures of Yosemite that have people

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Speaker 1: that I found, like I was hoping to find a

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Speaker 1: picture of Hutchings or picture of Hutchings in Yosemite for

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Speaker 1: our podcasts on our website and all that. Nope, he's

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Speaker 1: never the one in the picture. There are some, but

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Speaker 1: they're not like the ones that are in always public domain.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we're is is really like the one that

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Speaker 1: history has eventually made the Yosemite guy. Yeah, and he

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Speaker 1: could easily be a podcast subject on his own, probably

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Speaker 1: will at some point. But one of the things to

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Speaker 1: consider about this clash between the two men because their

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Speaker 1: fundamental differences and how they approached the subject of Yosemite.

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Speaker 1: Hutchings saw the beauty of the valley is a thing

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Speaker 1: that could be shared, like a shared experience that would

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Speaker 1: bring people together. We're sometimes touted as something of a

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Speaker 1: wilderness apostle, was a lot more about more personal, passionate

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Speaker 1: individual connection to the land rather than something to be

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Speaker 1: shared with a group. Yeah, and that that standpoint was

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Speaker 1: a little bit more in line with the modern thinking

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Speaker 1: of the time. So that's why he kind of had

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Speaker 1: a great appeal to a lot of people. Uh. Yosemite though,

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Speaker 1: would once again call Hutchings back. But before we talk

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Speaker 1: about that, we're gonna pause one more time and have

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Speaker 1: a word from one of our fantastic sponsors. In eighteen eighty,

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Speaker 1: James Hutchings returned once again to Yosemite. The administrators of

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Speaker 1: the Yosemite and Mariposa Grove Land Grant had been removed

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Speaker 1: from their position by the States eighteen seventy eighteen seventy

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Speaker 1: nine Constitutional Convention, as had the Guardian of Yosemite, and

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Speaker 1: James Hutchings was appointed to fill that empty guardian position.

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Speaker 1: But his time and the job didn't go very well.

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Speaker 1: He didn't get along with people and he could be

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Speaker 1: really tactless, so he was let go after four years. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he was very direct, he did not hold anything back. Uh,

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Speaker 1: not the easiest person to get along with, even though

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Speaker 1: he felt he was very clear headed and just telling

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Speaker 1: things like they were. But early on in James Hutchings

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Speaker 1: time as administrator as Guardian of Yosemite, his daughter Flow

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Speaker 1: died there and the young woman was leading a group

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Speaker 1: of hikers in the area. But what happened to cause

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Speaker 1: her death has been accounted in pretty wildly different ways,

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Speaker 1: and John Ware's writing about the incident because she was

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Speaker 1: friends with him. She had climbed a rock to pick

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Speaker 1: firms for the group that she was leading. When she

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Speaker 1: slipped and fell into an adjacent stream and then caught

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Speaker 1: a chill and became ill and died soon after. But

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Speaker 1: other accounts say that she was struck by a boulder

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Speaker 1: on the ledge trail, but in either case she died

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Speaker 1: very young. She was only seventeen when she passed, and

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Speaker 1: she was buried in the Yosemite Cemetery, where people still

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Speaker 1: go and visit her grave site. James Hutchings died in

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Speaker 1: two He was in Yosemite at the time on vacation

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Speaker 1: with his third wife, Emily, when they were involved in

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Speaker 1: a wagon accident, and like Flow, Ames was buried in

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Speaker 1: Yosemite Cemetery. In a digitized scan of a copy of

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Speaker 1: In the Heart of the Sierras that I was looking at,

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Speaker 1: I stumbled across this tiny obituary clipping that some owner

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Speaker 1: of the book appears to have pasted onto one of

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Speaker 1: the early pages, And since it's a clipping, it doesn't

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Speaker 1: include the original sourcing. But it's interesting in that it

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Speaker 1: characterizes Hutchings is really a sort of father to Yosemite tourism.

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Speaker 1: It reads, discoverer of Yosemite Dead J M's Hutchings, who

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Speaker 1: found the famous valley, killed there by accident San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: November two in the year is handwritten in J. M. Hutchings,

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Speaker 1: who discovered the Yosemite Valley and opened it for tourists,

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Speaker 1: was killed on Friday night by his team going over

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Speaker 1: the grade on his way into the famous valley. Mr

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Speaker 1: Hutchings was nearly ninety years old and until recently spent

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Speaker 1: every winter in the Yosemite. He had kept this season

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Speaker 1: the Calabaris Big Trees Hotel. So this is interesting one

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Speaker 1: and that it it doesn't get all the facts right.

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Speaker 1: He didn't discover Yosemity. But while Hutchings today doesn't really

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Speaker 1: get recognition as Yosemite's ambassador on the level that John

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Speaker 1: Weir does, during his lifetime, he was clearly seen that

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Speaker 1: way by at least some people, certainly enough to make

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Speaker 1: his obituary seem like he was the guy everyone associated

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Speaker 1: with that area. That's for the sake of including a

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Speaker 1: lovely fine that came up in research below. That pasted

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Speaker 1: obituary is handwritten. I remember meeting and talking with Mr

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Speaker 1: Hutchings in the Yosemite Valley at the time of my

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Speaker 1: visit in Eine we had just arrived. My conversation with

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Speaker 1: him was in the Big Tree Room pictured opposite page

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Speaker 1: three forty nine. Holly couldn't quite make out the signature,

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Speaker 1: but it is dated November five, nine two, so it

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Speaker 1: seems like it's probably the person who cut out and

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Speaker 1: pasted that clipping into the book. Yeah, it was just

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Speaker 1: one of those wonderful things that you kind of stumble

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Speaker 1: across in research, and it it gives an interesting piece

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Speaker 1: of color to who James Hutchings wash. And as for

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Speaker 1: hutchings first wife, Elvira, her paintings of Yosemite actually gained

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Speaker 1: her a certain degree of fame and praise, and she

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Speaker 1: continued to paint images of the parks incredible landscapes even

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Speaker 1: after she and James split, although unfortunately most of her

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Speaker 1: work was lost in a fire in nineteen o six.

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Speaker 1: She eventually moved to Vermont to be with her daughter Gertrude,

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Speaker 1: and she died there in nineteen seventeen. So the Yosemite

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Speaker 1: Land grant to set aside the land and protected from

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Speaker 1: development was really the first of its kind in the

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Speaker 1: United States. Yosemite was not the first national park. Remember,

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Speaker 1: we got into this topic because it seemed like literally

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Speaker 1: everyone was asking us to talk about the founding of

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Speaker 1: the National parks. That honor actually goes to Yellowstone, which

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Speaker 1: was made a National Park in eighteen seventy two. Yosemite

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Speaker 1: wasn't made a National park until eighteen ninety. The Act

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Speaker 1: creating the National Park Service was signed by President Woodrow

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Speaker 1: Wilson on August nineteen sixteen, so much later than there

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Speaker 1: were actual parks established. Yep uh and Yosemite was made

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Speaker 1: a UNESCO World Heritage Site in four Today, the Hutchings

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Speaker 1: house is gone, as is the little village that kind

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Speaker 1: of grew up in the area. The allowed development actually

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Speaker 1: moved to another site. The base of the tree from

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Speaker 1: the Big Tree Room remains, though, and you can drive

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Speaker 1: right by it. There are also some markers on the

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Speaker 1: ground where the corners of the Big Tree Room used

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Speaker 1: to be, and visitors now have their choice of lodging

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Speaker 1: in the park. So not that that one kind of

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Speaker 1: jankie hotel that needed lots of help, but now there

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Speaker 1: are some really amazing places to stay there. Uh. The

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Speaker 1: park has eight hotels and four campgrounds, so a far

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Speaker 1: cry from that two story window lists sheets instead of

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Speaker 1: walls hotel that the Hutchings bought in eighteen sixty four.

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Speaker 1: So that is our our little response to the many

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Speaker 1: listener requests for a National Park Service episode. So happy

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Speaker 1: hundred b day National Park Service in We're so glad

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Speaker 1: you're here. Yeah, it's very very cool. There are actually

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Speaker 1: lots of National parks that that are related to various

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Speaker 1: podcasts that we talk about, uh, that we've done in

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Speaker 1: the past, Like we we don't always mention them because

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Speaker 1: there are a lot and if we try to mention

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Speaker 1: every single site that that goes along with something, it

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Speaker 1: will be this neverest never ending list of places to visit.

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Speaker 1: But the National Park Service website has information on so

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Speaker 1: many places you can visit. Yeah, and for listener mail,

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Speaker 1: I have a tie in postcard that is from uh

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Speaker 1: Fort Marion National Monument at St. Augustine, Florida, and it's

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Speaker 1: uh the United States Department of the Interior National Park

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Speaker 1: Service is a cute, cute thing, and it is from

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Speaker 1: our listener, Alice. She says, Hi, only and Tracy, I'm

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Speaker 1: a big fan of the show. I've been listening for

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Speaker 1: just a few months, but I love learning more every

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Speaker 1: day because of you. I'm chaperoning a group of teenage

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Speaker 1: girl scouts on a travel camp to St. Augustine. Oh, Alice,

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Speaker 1: bless you because that takes patients. I would not have Uh.

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Speaker 1: The city is deeped in history and celebrated its four

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Speaker 1: and fiftieth anniversary last year. When we visited the Castillo

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Speaker 1: de San Marcos, I saw this postcard and I thought

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Speaker 1: of you definitely worth a visit next time you're in

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Speaker 1: the Sunshine State. Thanks for the podcast. Thank you so much, Alice.

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Speaker 1: You accidentally timed such an absolutely perfect postcard for when

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Speaker 1: I was prepping this episode, so I appreciate it. And again,

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Speaker 1: I always say it, but I always want to say it.

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Speaker 1: I'm so grateful every time someone stops in the middle

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Speaker 1: of their vacation and mails us something that's amazing and

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Speaker 1: kind and it's so thoughtful. If you would like to

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Speaker 1: reach us, you can do so at History Podcast at

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Speaker 1: house to Works dot com. We're also at Facebook dot com,

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00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,560
Speaker 1: slash missed in History on Twitter at misston History, on Instagram,

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Speaker 1: at misst in history, on tumbler as missed in History.

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Speaker 1: We're basically missed in history everywhere on social media. If

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Speaker 1: you would like to visit our parents site and maybe

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00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 1: do a little more research into the National Park Service,

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00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,520
Speaker 1: you can go there House of Works dot com. Type

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00:22:00,560 --> 00:22:02,720
Speaker 1: in National Park Service in the search bar, you will

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00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 1: get all kinds of information about the National Park Service.

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Speaker 1: If you would like to visit Tracy and Me online,

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Speaker 1: you can do that at Misston history dot com, where

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Speaker 1: we have every episode of the show that has ever existed,

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Speaker 1: show notes for every show that Tracy and I have

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Speaker 1: worked on, and occasionally other little goodies and tidbits. So

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Speaker 1: we encourage you kind of visit us at Miston history

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Speaker 1: dot com and House top Works dot com for more

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Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Because it has

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Speaker 1: to works dot co