1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:09,480 Speaker 1: You know, some people go their whole life trying to 2 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: have children. They'll pay thousands and thousands of dollars for 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: fertility treatments to give birth. They will fly around the 4 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: earth to try to adopt a baby. So it's really 5 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,479 Speaker 1: hard for most people to get their heads wrapped around 6 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: a killer mom. I'm talking about none other than Julie Shinneker. Listen. 7 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: Police say about seven o'clock Thursday night, Schenneker armed herself 8 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 1: with a thirty eight caliber pistol she had just purchased 9 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: over the weekend. They say she shot her son twice 10 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: in the head in the family's garage, then and upstairs 11 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 1: and shot her daughter in the back of the head 12 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: while she was doing her homework. She did tell us 13 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: that they talked back, that they were mouthy, and that 14 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: she was tired of it. Detectives say Schenneker's mother contacted 15 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,679 Speaker 1: them from Texas Friday morning after receiving a disturbing email 16 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: from her daughter and being unable to reach her. When 17 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: they arrived at the house, they found her on a 18 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: back patio covered in blood. They also found a note 19 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: describing how she planned to kill her children and then herself, 20 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: but somehow she miraculously lived while her two children Bow 21 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: and Killis died at her hands. Before we go any further, 22 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: I want you to hear Julie Shinneker speaking in her 23 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: own words. Jaculates played the cut in its entirety. Cut fourteen. 24 00:01:52,280 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: Listen to Julie Shinneker speaking anyway he hated shooting him. 25 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: I hate it better better than what he said. But 26 00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: it's better, yeah, instead of them what it was? How 27 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:27,560 Speaker 1: are you going to do that? So how would you 28 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: make them sit there? Though? Oh? So you leave the 29 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,640 Speaker 1: carboner while they're in the house. So her original plan 30 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:43,000 Speaker 1: was to murder both of her children by carbon monoxide. 31 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: But her problem was when she would bring them home 32 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: from school, they jump out of the car and go in. 33 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 1: So she couldn't figure out, Wow, how can I kill 34 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: them with carbon monoxide? I'll just shoot them instead. We 35 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: were talking about a killer mom. Julie Schinnaker. She is 36 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 1: no idiot. She was with the military as a linguist 37 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: and advanced way up high in the military ranks. Married 38 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:15,239 Speaker 1: to a military guy who also had climbed the ranks, 39 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: and he was away from home a lot, and reports 40 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: are she resented that deeply that she had given up 41 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 1: so much to raise these two children and perceived that 42 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: he had not. Well. Now they're both dead, and when 43 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: you hear the way they were shot dead, it's a 44 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: story you'll never forget. With me an all star panel 45 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: to make sense of it all. First of all, judge, 46 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: trial Lawyer, anchor Court TV, Ashley Wilcot at Ashley Wilcot 47 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 1: dot com. Doctor Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst to the Stars, joining 48 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: us from LA. She's also the star of a new 49 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: Netflix series Bleeding Empire, and you can find her at 50 00:03:56,280 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Renowned death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, 51 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My 52 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon, and star a Poisonous Liaison's program on 53 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: The True Crime Network. But first to special guests joining us, 54 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: Serena Fazzon. Serena Fazzon is a four time Amy Award 55 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: winning TV anchor and reporter, and one of those Emmys 56 00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: was for getting the interview with Julie Schinneker Murder Mom, 57 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: and Serena tells me that interview changed her life. You 58 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: can find her at Serena Fazzon dot Media and she's 59 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: got a podcast on the record with Serena Fazzon. Wow 60 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: do you ever sleep? Woman? Let's just start with you, Nancy, 61 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: Oh my god, let's just start with what happened here. 62 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: I just have one question. I'm very curious about Serena 63 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: Fazon when you spent all that time with kill her mom, 64 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: Julie Shinker, what was her demeanor because she apparently has 65 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 1: no regrets over what she did. Well, you know, when 66 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: I first met her, Nancy, in that prison, she seemed 67 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: to be she seemed to have regrets. It was when 68 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: the cameras were turned off that she changed her demeanor. 69 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: But as you started the show talking about how we 70 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: would do anything, so many people would do anything to 71 00:05:29,240 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: have children, I was obsessed with the case, for lack 72 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: of a better term, for many, many reasons. But one 73 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: of those reasons is because I had my daughter's thirteen now, 74 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: but she was three at the time, and I really 75 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,479 Speaker 1: wanted another child. So I just couldn't imagine how someone 76 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: could kill their two children, or how anybody could do 77 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 1: anything like that. So I wrote to her in prison 78 00:05:55,839 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: every month for four years, just wanting, you know, to 79 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: hear what she had to say the prosecutors. Initially she 80 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 1: pled not guilty, you know, and then trying to go 81 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: by reason of insanity. It was very, very it was 82 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: I will never forget those hours that I sent her. 83 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: What was her demeanor? Was she lucid? She she was lucid? 84 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: She was she was lucid. She seemed to be she 85 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: would Her eyes were all over the place, though, you know, 86 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: seem not to really connect answering these questions. Well, wait 87 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: a minute, wait a minute. Hauled on right there, uh 88 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 1: Serena Fazan joining me, Emmy Award winning anchor and reporter. 89 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: I put I've seen plenty of defendants on the stand. 90 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: I didn't put them up. They went up on their own, 91 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: and they looked everywhere but at me asking them questions too, 92 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:57,239 Speaker 1: which of course I loved because the jury was watching 93 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: at the same time. I mean, when you don't want 94 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 1: to ask her question, you look down up around. It's 95 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: hard for me to look somebody in the eye an 96 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: outright life. And that's a real tell. That's a nonverbal 97 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: communication right there, when the person looks away when you 98 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: ask them a question. Boy, When I asked the twins 99 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: the question if they look away. I'm on it right then. 100 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: But sadly they know my game, so they know how 101 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: they know how to trick me. Guys, we are talking 102 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: about this woman, a murder mom. There's no doubt about it. 103 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: She shot both of her children. And these children, oh 104 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: my stars, let me look up. All their accomplished was 105 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: for Pete's sake. Let's see the teen girl Killick Schinneker 106 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: was an honor student. She had record time at high 107 00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: school track. She was outstanding as far as grades go, 108 00:07:55,320 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: same thing. A highly popular sophomore. She never missed school. 109 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: The only day that she missed school was the day 110 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: her mother shot her dead dead. Her little brother Bo 111 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: was a goalie playing middle school soccer. That's the spot 112 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: in my son plays. That's not easy. I don't get it, 113 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: but you know what, let's hear it from the horse's mouth. 114 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: Take a listen. This is kill her mom, Julie Schinneker. 115 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: What made you decide to do it this way? First? Bow? 116 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: But I mean, were you bringing him back from pycer 117 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 1: practice and he kissed you off? Do? Is that what happened? Yeah? 118 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: Snip right, d just something you know? I don't happy 119 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:52,400 Speaker 1: you turn round came back. You know when did you 120 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: when exactly did you shoot vote? Were you in the garage? 121 00:08:54,800 --> 00:09:01,839 Speaker 1: A reading right? Who were you in your garage? Were 122 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 1: you driving? Or so? Then you shot him? Where did 123 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 1: you shoot him? First? Do you remember what we're sciting? 124 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:28,559 Speaker 1: I'm sorry? And then and then one I didn't do anything. 125 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: Climb stories with Nancy Grace, guys who are talking about 126 00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 1: a murder mom and hearing her describe what she did 127 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: to her son Bow, a little boy in middle schooler, 128 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: It's so upsetting to me because all throughout what she 129 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: was saying, how many times have I picked the twin 130 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: up from school? How many times have I picked up 131 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: John David from soccer? He'd sit beside me and the 132 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: car said, I mean, it was the highlight of my day. 133 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: Before I go to doctor Bethany Marshall psychoanas joining us 134 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan and Ashley Walcott. I wanted to take 135 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: a listen to more murder mom Julie Scheneker and then 136 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: what happened after that? Okay? And then you went upstairs 137 00:10:31,640 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: and that's when you confronted and less sad she didn't 138 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: know you were there. Then in the head and I 139 00:10:45,760 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: shot her in the back of the head in the mouth. 140 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: Listen to this. When you shot her in the head, 141 00:10:55,160 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 1: did she fall forward or anything? It's fall sideway. And 142 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: then how did you shoot her in the mouth or before? 143 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: Was she laying she was I'm still in a chair. 144 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 1: I did to reach round? Did you shake it right 145 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: inside her mouth? You know? I didn't do the inside? 146 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: Did no to from the outside? And shot? Yeah? Jack, 147 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: I want to hear the rest of what she said 148 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: about her daughter, Kele. It's place, he said, when I don't. 149 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 1: When I get out of here, I'm never gonna come back. 150 00:11:29,920 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: And see. I came out behind her. What was she doing? 151 00:11:34,920 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: From um? She was a homework on the computer. Yeah, 152 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: he came up behind her his way, okay, And what happened? 153 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: I shot her in the bath of the head because 154 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: she was running her mouth at you. Yeah, and then 155 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: I shot her, I think, in the mouth. Why did 156 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,559 Speaker 1: you Why did you want to shoot her in the mouth? 157 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: Because anguously, you know, Doctor Bethany Marshall, I'm having the 158 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: same reaction right now as I would have so often 159 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: in court when I would have to present evidence that 160 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: was just unspeakable, and it leaves me almost numb with 161 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: waves of nausea listening to her talking about shooting her 162 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: girl in the mouth. And I remember moments like that 163 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: like that in court when then I'd have to continue 164 00:12:36,559 --> 00:12:38,440 Speaker 1: questioning and I'd look out with the jury and they 165 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 1: were would be just really just numb with what they 166 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: had just heard and Chinnaker. But our job is to 167 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:51,240 Speaker 1: analyze the facts and evidence and try to make sense 168 00:12:51,280 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: of it. Did you hear her say she shot her 169 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: daughter in the mouth. She was already because she first 170 00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: shot her in the back of the head, but then 171 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: she went up and shot klux again in the mouth. 172 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: I heard it, Nancy. Nancy. I remember covering this case 173 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: ten years ago with you. Do you remember the images 174 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:25,319 Speaker 1: were so profound. Her husband was away on tour. She 175 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: was so angry at her husband for not being home 176 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 1: to take care of the kids. She sounded the way 177 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: she was sitting on the back porch covering blood, and 178 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: during the interviews she sounded like she was trying to 179 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: act crazy or drugged. But she's not crazy at all. 180 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: She's quite sane, Nancy. Her profile reminds me of a 181 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:53,959 Speaker 1: particular type of patient who comes into my office who 182 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: is very shifty, eyes all over the place, like our 183 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: Emmy Award winning producer was talking about who is only 184 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 1: attached to one person on the face of the planet, 185 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: and that is themselves. They present in a peculiar kind 186 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: of way as if the only thing that excites or 187 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: interests them is their own internal world, their own imagination, 188 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: their own thoughts about things. It's as if they're solipsistic, 189 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: meaning that the outside world is completely cut off and 190 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: their own internal imagination and fantasies are enlivened. It's like there, 191 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: it's like Horton, Here's who if the Doctor Seuss book, 192 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: but the Who is their own internal world. They go 193 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 1: further and further inside of their own thoughts and they 194 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: impreciate all that about Horton, here's the Who in his 195 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: own private world and her own private world. But what 196 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: matters to me, maybe I'm a little bit more of 197 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: a pragmatist, is what she insane at the time the act. 198 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: And clearly the answer to that is no. I interviewed 199 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: no the guy who sold her a gun. Let's pull 200 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 1: that up, Jackie, the guy who sold her the gun, 201 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: and he told me that she was in no way unsteady, 202 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: that she was completely lucid, that she was sane. And 203 00:15:13,560 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: while I've got you, Serena Fazan, isn't it true that 204 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 1: she bought the gun just shortly before the two murders? Yes, 205 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: and Nancy, she told me when I asked her that 206 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: question in prison, she I asked her if she had 207 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,760 Speaker 1: any regrets for killing her children, and she said no. 208 00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: She says that she was trying to save them. Those 209 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: were her words, she said to me. I just told 210 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: up some of my interviews, and the full interviews you 211 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: can still watch online. But she said, I know you 212 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 1: hate me. Everyone here hates me. Okay, because Klee Simbo 213 00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: loved me. I told them that I loved them every day. Okay. 214 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 1: Take a listen to cut our cut twenty. This is 215 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 1: Gerald Tanzo, owner of Load Gun storey Shinneker bought the 216 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: murder weapon. He's talking about the day she bought the gun. 217 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 1: This is when he tells me, listen, So, when you 218 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 1: sold Julie Shinneker the murder weapon, did you have any 219 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: reason to believe she had a mental illness, that she 220 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: was insane, that she was drunk or high, any reason 221 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: you felt you should not sell her a gun? Not 222 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: at all, not at all. In fact, did you find 223 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: it unusual for a woman to be buying a gun? 224 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: We sold guns to women every day. And again kind 225 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: of a gun. What kind of gun did you say 226 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: she bought? Was a Smith and Wesson bodyguard? And did 227 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: she buy ammunition? She bought ammunition to correct when she left? 228 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: What was her demeanor? She was very nice, very very good, 229 00:16:55,280 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: very personable, smiling, happy. In fact, didn't she shake your 230 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: hand when she left? That was on the day of 231 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: the pickup. Yeah, that was on the twenty seventh, shook 232 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,920 Speaker 1: my hands and goodbye, and everything was fine. Straight back 233 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: out to Serena Bazan joining us. Serena, how close in 234 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,199 Speaker 1: time does she get the gun actually physically get the 235 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: gun to when she shot her children? Did? I believe 236 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: it was just like three days before, perhaps something like that. 237 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to remember you about three days or less 238 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: than a week before. And she claimed that the intention 239 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: was for her just to use the gun on herself. 240 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: That's what she first told the investiators, that that was 241 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: her intention, but then she changed her mind. And you know, 242 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 1: when you were talking about the kids being shot, one 243 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 1: of the stories that continued. I mean, I just cannot 244 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: picture this as all of us as most of his 245 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: a parents. Little Bow was actually in the car tying 246 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 1: his shoe right. He looked up at his mom and said, Mom, 247 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: what's wrong, and that's when she shot him. That came 248 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: to me from the investigators on the case Crime Stories 249 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, there's no good way to put this. 250 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: Murder Moms, women that turn their frustration in their rage 251 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:42,920 Speaker 1: under those that they are entrusted with to protect their 252 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: own children. We're learning more about Julie Scheneker's rage at 253 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: her husband's career surpassing her own, her anger that he 254 00:18:55,119 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: had to fly out of town for work. She lived 255 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: in a man as I recall, with a pool out back. 256 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: I mean, she had it all as this big, huge 257 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: thing that most people only ever dream of. I mean, 258 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: when you talking about the one percenters, that would be them. 259 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 1: But she was still angry. Take a listen to our 260 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: cut twenty seven. This yellow thing around her came up 261 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,199 Speaker 1: and went through the ceiling and then I picked her 262 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: up and put her in bad and covered up, and 263 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: I said her up, and I hugged her, and she 264 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: didn't hug me back, and I laid her down and 265 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 1: I kissed her goodnight, and I covered her up. And 266 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: then I realized I forgot to cover up bow and 267 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,360 Speaker 1: it was January. So I went and got a blanket 268 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,239 Speaker 1: and I covered him up and kissed him be night. 269 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: And I didn't see any blood at all at all. 270 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: But why didn't Half years later I saw blood in 271 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 1: the pictures. But that day, you know, no blood. Save it, lady, 272 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: he murders your children. All this covering them with a 273 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: blanket and kissing them and hugging them. I don't care. 274 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 1: She murdered them. She planned to murder them. She detailed 275 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: it in writing out of anger. Her husband left her 276 00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:37,640 Speaker 1: to race him when he had to go away on trips. 277 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: And then she starts this with quote, this yellow thing 278 00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: around her came out of her head and went through 279 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 1: the ceiling. To you, Serena fast, she's trying to say 280 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: that was her daughter's soul. Yeah, she told me that 281 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 1: that was her daughter's soul, her son's soul, and that 282 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: they were going up to heaven. And that's why she 283 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: wanted of the death penalty. She wanted the death penalty 284 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 1: initially because she wanted to join really children, and there 285 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: was a trial, there was, but that's what she wanted it, 286 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,639 Speaker 1: so she claimed at the very very beginning, she said 287 00:21:13,720 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: that she wanted, she wished, she wished she got the 288 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: death penalty. Why didn't she just petty guilty? That's the question, Nancy. 289 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: That's why you're so great at what you can tell 290 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: you Why? Right, Because she didn't want the death penalty 291 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: and she didn't want to go to jail. That's why 292 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: you have a trial, because you don't want to go 293 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 1: to trial, and the prosecutor does want you to go 294 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: to jail. Guys, I mean this is so best accords. 295 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: Everything this woman says is a calculated lie. Well, you 296 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:43,919 Speaker 1: know what, don't take my word for it. Listen to 297 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: our cut seventeen Julie Schinneker murder. Mom. When you shot 298 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: her in the head, did she fall forward or anything, 299 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,680 Speaker 1: fall sideways? And then how did you shoot her in 300 00:21:55,720 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: the mouth? Where was she laying? I'm still going to 301 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: share them. Did you take it right inside her mouth? Yeah? 302 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,360 Speaker 1: I didn't do it inside Yeah, because from the outside 303 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: of shy. Yeah, she can't referring to her daughter's mouth 304 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: as quote her sassy mouth. Okay to you as she 305 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: Wilcot judge and trial lawyer and great courtiv Way in 306 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, Nancy, you know I've been here biting 307 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,960 Speaker 1: my tongue. I have so much to say. First of all, 308 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 1: here she's trying in this interview to act like um 309 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 1: oh it was she was saving them and she saw 310 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: their souls go up. Let's talk about premeditation. She had 311 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: written a note about thinking about killing them by guests 312 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: from a car exhaust. Then she chose to go buy 313 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,720 Speaker 1: a gun, calmly, sanely, rationally, according to the person that 314 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:54,920 Speaker 1: sold it to her. She then claims when they had Mauth, 315 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: they were mouthie right. Okay. So he's sitting in the 316 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: back of the cart tying a shoe, doing nothing, innocently 317 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: sitting there, and she executes him. Then she goes inside 318 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: and executes her daughter, who was doing homework on a computer. 319 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,639 Speaker 1: So none of this makes sense. All of this is 320 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: contrived by her to try to cover up the fact 321 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: that she murdered her children in cold But there's no excuse, 322 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 1: there's no justification. It doesn't matter if she's angry at 323 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 1: her husband, it doesn't matter. There's no explaining this other 324 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: than she evily murdered her children. You were hearing earlier 325 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: on Julie Schineker as she was speaking to police. Later, 326 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: you were hearing her speaking to our friend Serena Fazon Serena. 327 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 1: When she would say these things to you, what was 328 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: her demeanor she was, you know, she was giving off 329 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 1: that demeanor as feel sorry for me. You know, she 330 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: actually told me, she told me that Bo was the 331 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 1: victim of sexual abuse and he was molested at the 332 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 1: age of six, and but she wouldn't reveal by who. 333 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: Then she said that she was raped as sexually assault 334 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: and I'm sorry, I hate that other word at seventeen, 335 00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,560 Speaker 1: and she was trying to protect her children from a 336 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: similar fake. So I kept on pushing her to say 337 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: who are you protecting them from? Who? Yeah, I mean, 338 00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: quite frankly, I thought they need to be protected from her, 339 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: and that clearly ended up being the case. But that's 340 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: what she told me in that interview, said, yes, she 341 00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:49,879 Speaker 1: changed her story because the suggestion they were ever molested 342 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: has never been brought up until a behind jail house 343 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 1: walls interview that you managed to obtain. And so if 344 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,159 Speaker 1: you hear her word that we played earlier when she 345 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: was speaking to police, she says Bo, her little boy, 346 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: was quote sitting there with his face blown out, So 347 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: that was her idea protecting him. Guys, please take a 348 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,960 Speaker 1: listen to our friend from hlnjen Kassar speaking to me. 349 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: Police are alleging and prosecutors that when she was driving 350 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: her little thirteen year old so too soccer practice, she 351 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: shot him in the head twice. He was dead. She 352 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,200 Speaker 1: went back to the home, drove the car in the garage. 353 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: He stayed dead in the car in the garage. Then 354 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: she went to the second floor of their home where 355 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: her sixteen year old daughter was on the computer doing homework, 356 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: shot her twice in the head. Dead. She was found 357 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: the next morning in her bathrobe and slippers, out and 358 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:51,959 Speaker 1: back with blood all over her. To Joseph Scott Morgan, 359 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, do you see the comparison 360 00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: that she shot both off her children in the head 361 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 1: as she shot both of them twice? Yeah? I do. 362 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: And there's another piece here to Nancy that I've seen before. 363 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: And when we think about this beautiful girl just doing 364 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: her homework, I find it it's the fact that she 365 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: went back and shot her in the mouth says a lot. 366 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 1: I've worked many cases involving individuals who serial perpetrators in 367 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: particular that will mutilate individuals, sadist in fact, who will 368 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: carve up the mouth, that will do horrible things to 369 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: the mouth of individuals. And I'm not going to go 370 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: into all of the details, but it speaks a lot. 371 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 1: When you're doing a profile on an individual like this, 372 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: you can learn about where they're inflicting these injuries. The 373 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: daughter in particular, is from just a straight up clinical standpoint, 374 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: is kind of interesting because of what she did. You know, 375 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: she's talking about this child, this child being mouthy, and 376 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: you're there's like this attempt to blow the mouth out. 377 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: It's almost symbolic and it's ultimately horrific. You guys, if 378 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: folks will just go and visit crime online and search 379 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: her name, you guys have a fantastic article about this case, 380 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: and you can actually see the crime scene images and 381 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: it really puts you in that place where this little 382 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: girl is at her desk, Nancy. You can see the 383 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: computer there, you can see the bloodstains that are on 384 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: the floor, and just know that this girl didn't rise 385 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 1: to her feet. There was no there was no engagement 386 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: as far as an argument or a fight. She shot 387 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: this poor child where she sat Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 388 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 1: For those of you just joining as Julie Shinneker, the 389 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,959 Speaker 1: Ultimate murder Mom. First of all, take a list to 390 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: Ed Lawrence at ABC Action News Our Cut thirteen. The 391 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: diary talks in specifics about the two kids, thirteen year 392 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: old Bow and sixteen year old Kylix. She called me 393 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:22,400 Speaker 1: an evil soul and prin sees the evil starts Thursday. 394 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 1: The technician went on to read another page labeled Thursday, 395 00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: the day of the murders. The passage started talking about 396 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: how she shot Bow first in the car on the 397 00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: way to practice, and she was surprised he had fight. 398 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: He was yelling at me. First shot hit the windshield, 399 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: second shot was the side of the head, next shot 400 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,440 Speaker 1: was to the mouth, his mouth email. The diary talks 401 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: about how both kids would talk back to Schenneker and 402 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: not treat her with respect, then describes the murder of 403 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: her daughter. Came home, dash Klix was on the upstairs computer. 404 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: She said in quotations, what are you doing? Quotations? Just 405 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: see what you're doing, walked up without her reacting, and 406 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: shot her in the right temple, then shot her in 407 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:10,560 Speaker 1: the mouth and prinses her sassy little mouth, and then 408 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 1: we hear from her own her own mouth. Listen to 409 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: Carson Chambers at ABC Action News This is our cut eleven. 410 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: We were told by a medical examiner today that Bow 411 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: and Kalys were shot at such close range that they 412 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: actually had burn marks on their skin. Her defense attorney's 413 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: claim that she was insane at the time the slangs, 414 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: she was diagnosed by polar with psychotic features, and that 415 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: her chronic mental illness stole everything from her, including her 416 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: two children. The state says Schineker actually planned that Saturday 417 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: massacre with a thirty eight revolver and hollow point bullets, 418 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: and then wrote about the slangs in a diary. I 419 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: offed Bow on the way to practice. He saw the 420 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 1: gun and told me to put it back in the purse. 421 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: He had a healthy fright I accident, and we shot 422 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: the window to shot him, one extra through, one extra 423 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: shot through the side of the head. Then then when 424 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,320 Speaker 1: we got home, a shot to his mouth because he 425 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: became so mouthy, just like Kaylix. And the state says 426 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 1: that she also wrote in that diary that she would 427 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: have killed her husband, Colonel Parkersheneker, had he been in 428 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: the house at the time. Of course, he was on 429 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:29,320 Speaker 1: assignment in Afghanistan. Did you hear that, Serena fason? How 430 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: could she defend shooting them both in the head and 431 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,960 Speaker 1: then both of them and their mouth. In her diary, 432 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 1: which is what I'm focusing on right now, she refers 433 00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: to them and their mouthy mouth. In other words, they 434 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: talked back to her. It was crazy. And you know, 435 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: she told me though, when she was sitting with me, 436 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 1: that she wishes that her husband, Colonel Parker Sheneker, would 437 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 1: have institutionalized her when she asked him to do so 438 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: in the past. Now the question, of course, is we 439 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:01,840 Speaker 1: don't believe she asked him to do that. She claimed 440 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: that her pride or their pride because they lived they 441 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: did live Nancy me gorgeous home, that it kept them 442 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: from addressing her mental illness or her mental health and 443 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,360 Speaker 1: they didn't want anybody to know. Okay, wait, a mean, 444 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: let me understand this. So she's claiming she had a 445 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: mental illness, and she was saying enough to know she 446 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: had a mental illness and to ask to go to 447 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: the doctor, but they didn't. She did not take herself 448 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 1: to a therapist, a shrink, a psychologist, a psychoanalyst, a psychiatrist, 449 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: because what she didn't want anybody to find out, So 450 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: she had a secret mental illness. Is that what you're 451 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: telling me? Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. 452 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: That she thanked me. She said to me it was 453 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 1: her pride that prevented her. And also she blamed her husband. 454 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: Of course she did, because he's in Afghanistan, right, But 455 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: Chas Harker both did not want to address her mental 456 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: illness because they were embarrassed by what their neighbors would think. 457 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: Guys on mental illness take a list of our cut twelve. 458 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 1: Edward Lawrence ABC Action. The crime scene technician read her 459 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: own words out loud for the jury. I was planning 460 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: on a Saturday massacre, but had to wait on the 461 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,200 Speaker 1: background and investigate for three days. This comes from a 462 00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: spiral notebook written by Schennaker's hand. It offers direction to 463 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: her husband. Prosecutors say it shows a calculating murderer waiting 464 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:38,200 Speaker 1: and plotting her attack. Okay, Dodtor, Bethany Marshall, we need 465 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,880 Speaker 1: a shrink pronto. Well, she reminds me of so many 466 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: murderers who are actually very The clinical term is histrionic, 467 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: but I call it trauma queen. You know, the shooting 468 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,800 Speaker 1: them in the mouth and the mouthy mouth and all 469 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: of that. She's been very dramatic, this idea that she 470 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:59,400 Speaker 1: is saving them because they were molested or from future 471 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: mole estate. And that's what Andrea Yates did. Remember that 472 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: she felt that she had this delusion that if she 473 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,480 Speaker 1: didn't drown the kids that they would go to hell. 474 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: So she was saving them from hell by killing or 475 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: drowning them. That was Andrea the Yates and Julie Shinnecour 476 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,920 Speaker 1: is saving them because they've been molested, and from what 477 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: she's saving them from. It's it's hard to say. I 478 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:28,240 Speaker 1: think this idea of mental illness. It's what we call 479 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 1: in the forensic community malingering after the fact. Malingering is 480 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: a fancy term for making up some kind of an illness. 481 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: So now she's going to make up that she had 482 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: a psychiatric illness. The motivation for killing the kids is 483 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: probably quite shallow. She just didn't want them around. But 484 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, most parents who kill their kids do it 485 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: to get back at the other parents, at the other parent, right, 486 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: So she's angry at her husband that he's on a 487 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,719 Speaker 1: tour of duty. She's tired of taking care the kids. 488 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: She's probably harboring very angry thoughts at him. She strikes 489 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 1: out at the kids. What is the worst thing you 490 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,839 Speaker 1: can do to a parent, harm their kids. So this 491 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,799 Speaker 1: is really not only an act towards the kids, This 492 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,360 Speaker 1: is an act of violence and rage towards her husband 493 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,280 Speaker 1: as well. And I was saying about her being preoccupied 494 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: with her own internal world. She's only tethered to one person, 495 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: and that's herself. She's not tethered to external reality, the 496 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: fact that she's going to go to prison, or what 497 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: the rest of her life is going to be like. 498 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: She's just caught up in that immediate moment of rage. 499 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: To Serena Fazon, tell me about her Julie Shanniker and 500 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:46,000 Speaker 1: her husband's background and how educated, oh, extremely educated. I 501 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 1: believe they met in Germany and they were looked as 502 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: the power couple, you know, both of them, very put together, 503 00:34:55,320 --> 00:35:01,760 Speaker 1: very well respected, just again like a our couple. And 504 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: she was a linguist, as we talked about at the 505 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: beginning of the show, extremely intelligent, extremely intelligent. After my 506 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: interview with her, I also am convinced she is a 507 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: master manipulator as well. Definitely a master manipulator. I mean 508 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 1: she told the lead prosecutor in the case was a 509 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: guy by the name of J. Pruner. He's still with 510 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 1: the State Attorney's office. She actually told me at the 511 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: time that she commended him for convincing the jury that 512 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 1: she was not insane and referenced previous moments in her 513 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: life when she snapped, you know, saying so she was 514 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: very you know, she's say she's not insane, and then 515 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 1: she's saying that she was saying her story was all 516 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 1: over the place. There was an incident, and I know, 517 00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if people had talked about it, but 518 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:56,360 Speaker 1: I don't know when it happened. It happened maybe a 519 00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: year or maybe it's several months prior to this, But 520 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:08,240 Speaker 1: she actually headbutted an army commander's wife at a function. Bad. Yeah, 521 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: she had butted. It was during a Christmas party. And 522 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: you know, Parker Shenneker had said that those were the 523 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:22,879 Speaker 1: moments that he knew that his wife were going out 524 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 1: of control, out of control. And they're saying two different things. 525 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: Headbutting another woman a Christmas party, Okay, I'd say that's 526 00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: not good. In saying, no, you know, it's interesting. This 527 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: is just evil to you. Actually wild caught on that 528 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: evening January twenty seven, Shinnaker sends an email to her 529 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:48,000 Speaker 1: then husband Parker. It says, quote, get home soon. We're 530 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 1: waiting for you. But as a matter of fact, she 531 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,279 Speaker 1: had just murdered the children. They were dead lying there. 532 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,880 Speaker 1: She says, hurry home. I can't even begin to fathom 533 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: the depth of her evilness. I'm not going to say 534 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 1: I believe that it's anything other than that. I don't 535 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: believe it's mental health. I believe that whether she snapped, 536 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 1: so to speak, or she'd been planning it, which she 537 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: had been a man as she will call, you're a 538 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: judge and a child while you're right, yeah, and did 539 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,920 Speaker 1: you actually just use a defense snapped, because that's the 540 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,880 Speaker 1: name of a program that's not real that I just 541 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:31,040 Speaker 1: got mad snapped Bam. That's not a defense. That's called revenge. Right, 542 00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 1: It's definitely not a defense. But you know, she's trying 543 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: to paint it as, oh, I have to give up 544 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: my career, I'm angry with my my husband. Crimea river 545 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,560 Speaker 1: to then go the extra step, and we've already heard 546 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:50,120 Speaker 1: she's very very smart, So she's very revengeful manipulative to 547 00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: know they're dead and send him that type of message. 548 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: I wonder what he thought when he read it. I 549 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,439 Speaker 1: wonder if he read it and thought, what does this mean? 550 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: What is hell? I find really interesting Ashley as her 551 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: whole story was I'm gonna kill the children and kill myself. 552 00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: But the reality is shelled murdered the children, and then 553 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: she just went on her verandah and fell asleep. Okay. 554 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: So also I'd like to point out that in court 555 00:38:20,400 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: she acted like she was drugged up, but then she 556 00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: spotted somebody out in the gallery in the courtroom and 557 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: smiled and winked. She winked at somebody on trial for 558 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: the murder of her two children. She was all smiling 559 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: and happy, and then the husband walks in and she 560 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: immediately turns to a scowl angry. You know what, she 561 00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,960 Speaker 1: is no more crazy than my cat sentiment. She is 562 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: not crazy. She's evil. That's what she is, and that's 563 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: why she's a murder mom. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off, 564 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:55,680 Speaker 1: Goodbye friend,