Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, where we give you insights into the mind, brain, behavior,
Speaker 1: and creativity. Each episode will feature a new guest who
Speaker 1: will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding
Speaker 1: of yourself, others, and the world we live in. Hopefully
Speaker 1: we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility. Thanks for
Speaker 1: listening and enjoy the podcast. So today I'm really excited
Speaker 1: to have Ryan Holiday on the podcast. Ryan is an author,
Speaker 1: media strategist, and entrepreneur. His books include Growth Packer Marketing,
Speaker 1: The Obstacles The Way, and Ego Is the Enemy, which
Speaker 1: is his latest book, which just came out yesterday. Thanks
Speaker 1: Ryan for chatting with me. Yeah, it's good to talk
Speaker 1: to you again. Wow. Yeah, it's always good to talk
Speaker 1: to you. Wow. Remember how we met? Yes, Oh, I
Speaker 1: was just thinking about that the other day. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: don't know from my perspective. So we were both there
Speaker 1: to have dinner with Neil Strauss, which right, why we're
Speaker 1: both there, and you were actually you were just like
Speaker 1: so nice, like you were so like we made me
Speaker 1: feel so comfortable. I don't know if you knew that
Speaker 1: I did. I didn't even know it was you. I
Speaker 1: don't know it was right holiday, but you were like
Speaker 1: you made some joke as well. You're like, yeah, I know, man,
Speaker 1: Like I said something stupid, You're like, I know, man.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I really like this guy.
Speaker 1: And and then then it turned out like I was
Speaker 1: just like, right holiday that we had, we're having dinner together.
Speaker 1: So it was pretty cool. That was forever ago. Oh
Speaker 1: I feel like I've changed. I feel like I've cheated.
Speaker 1: Maybe that's the narrative I've created. Now not read your book,
Speaker 1: I think about everything differently, But uh, yeah, do you
Speaker 1: how do you feel like you've grown since that was
Speaker 1: three years ago? Four years ago? No, it's more than that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's twenty eleven. Probably. So I'd written my book but
Speaker 1: it was still being edited. It hadn't published, so I
Speaker 1: was very much not in any way public person at
Speaker 1: that point, right, Like I'd only worked for very public people,
Speaker 1: but I was just a behind the scenes person. So
Speaker 1: I was sort of right on the cusp of, you know,
Speaker 1: releasing my first book and then sort of coming out
Speaker 1: in that sense. So I think I was much more
Speaker 1: introverted then. I was much less confident then. In some
Speaker 1: ways life was easier then, obviously because there was less,
Speaker 1: you know, responsibilities and stuff. But I see that as
Speaker 1: sort of being right before a lot of big things happened.
Speaker 1: So I think about it very fondly. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: So that was the exact moment of my life. Was
Speaker 1: like I was working my first book, Gifted, and I
Speaker 1: was like, like, so nervous, like this first book's going
Speaker 1: to come out? What's And I think I was a
Speaker 1: lot more quiet then, I was a lot less confident.
Speaker 1: So literally everything you just said and then it's kind
Speaker 1: of like this arc of what happens. And then I
Speaker 1: read this that you know, between this book you kind
Speaker 1: of get to a point where then and then you're
Speaker 1: in the public and you're like, oh my gosh, like
Speaker 1: like all of a sudden, I don't know. I found
Speaker 1: myself becoming more self critical, and then through becoming more
Speaker 1: self critical and that then becoming more confident, like kind
Speaker 1: of me to fall back in order to loot into
Speaker 1: and sort of that have more stability. Is just kind
Speaker 1: of this interesting back and forth process. What's been like
Speaker 1: for you? No, I agree with that and matches with
Speaker 1: my experience. I think you mentioned the narrative thing earlier
Speaker 1: maybe you've experienced this, But one of the weird parts
Speaker 1: is that, you know, you do these podcasts and you
Speaker 1: do radio and media and speaking events, and you end
Speaker 1: up hearing like, like what we just described was, you know,
Speaker 1: twenty eleven to twenty sixteen. That's a you know, four
Speaker 1: plus years, a lot of work, a lot of ups
Speaker 1: and downs, a lot of really good times, some terrible
Speaker 1: scary times. You know, lots of stuff is in there.
Speaker 1: But as you do press, all of that immense amount
Speaker 1: of life, a half decade is compressed down to like
Speaker 1: two sentences, and they're all positive sentences, right, They're all
Speaker 1: about like all the great things that you've done. And
Speaker 1: so I think one of the ways, one of this
Speaker 1: one of the hard parts, or one of the things
Speaker 1: you have to remind yourself of is little moments like
Speaker 1: what we were just talking about. So you don't you
Speaker 1: don't tell yourself you're on this like you know, rocket
Speaker 1: shift to success or that you know it was all faded.
Speaker 1: You know, you've got to enjoy and be very aware
Speaker 1: of the complexity and nuance of that time and not
Speaker 1: to sort of brush over it absolutely. And so at
Speaker 1: that point have you already worked with Tucker Max It
Speaker 1: very working I had. Yeah, So this was like my
Speaker 1: sort of coming out from a lot of those things.
Speaker 1: But you know, and I had a bit of a
Speaker 1: story even then in the sense that is like, you know,
Speaker 1: I dropped out of college, and you know, you could
Speaker 1: tell yourself like I'm this dropout and I'm sleeping on
Speaker 1: a floor and I'm hustling and I'm going places, and
Speaker 1: that can be great, but it can also go to
Speaker 1: your head and sort of detach you from the reality
Speaker 1: of the present moment. So I have a question about
Speaker 1: these individuals that you worked with that I just mentioned,
Speaker 1: like Tucker and do they undoubtedly had at least one
Speaker 1: point huge egos. Yes, you can't say they didn't. Like
Speaker 1: you can't. It's not like I'm like saying and I wouldn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: It's not like I'm saying something that like I'm talking
Speaker 1: about the bad behind their backs. I might like to say,
Speaker 1: like Tucker backs had an ego is not to talk
Speaker 1: about him bad behind his back. It's so he's a
Speaker 1: self proclaimed you know, he always he was at one point,
Speaker 1: And so I wonder how much have these individuals learn
Speaker 1: and grown in their lives as well. Have you seen it?
Speaker 1: Have you seen a growth trajectory there? Well, Tucker obviously
Speaker 1: is very different than when I met him. I mean
Speaker 1: he's he has a family, and he runs a company,
Speaker 1: and I would say there's very few people in his
Speaker 1: life that would not say that he is radically different. Dove,
Speaker 1: I'm not close with anymore. Sort of went our separate
Speaker 1: ways after American Apparel, and he's sort of doing his
Speaker 1: own thing. I think what I saw working for those
Speaker 1: egotistical people, and again, like you, I don't mean that insulting.
Speaker 1: I saw just how what a burden it actually was.
Speaker 1: Right in some ways, it motivated them to take huge
Speaker 1: risks that paid off in big ways. But I mostly
Speaker 1: saw that ego as a negative force in their life,
Speaker 1: Like because my role was often to have to battle
Speaker 1: that ego, not for my own personal gain. I wasn't
Speaker 1: like fighting against does ego so you would promote me.
Speaker 1: It was like I was fighting against Tucker's ego so
Speaker 1: he wouldn't do some dumb thing that would be not
Speaker 1: in his interests, or that I would be fighting his
Speaker 1: presupposition or strong opinion about a person that he never met.
Speaker 1: That I actually thought that if he could connect with
Speaker 1: would be good for his career, right, So, as a
Speaker 1: sort of an advisor and a marketer and employee and
Speaker 1: partner in a lot of cases, I was just so
Speaker 1: exhausted with and then not just with these two people,
Speaker 1: but battling other people's egos is just so tiring because
Speaker 1: it's almost like a superhuman force. It's not rational at all,
Speaker 1: and so you have to just chip away at it
Speaker 1: just to get them to again to do something not
Speaker 1: stupid totally. And the main point of your book is
Speaker 1: that battling your own ego is exhausting too. Yes, of course,
Speaker 1: And I think you know, it's very easy to say, oh,
Speaker 1: this person has a huge ego and it causes problems
Speaker 1: for them. I think what I spent a lot of
Speaker 1: time trying to do in the last couple of years
Speaker 1: is looking at the ways in which being around these
Speaker 1: egotistical people at such a formative time in my life,
Speaker 1: when I held them up, and it's such a place
Speaker 1: in my mind, how did how have I picked up
Speaker 1: some of their bad habits? You know, it's like if
Speaker 1: you grew up a child of an alcoholic, you're going
Speaker 1: to pick up certain habits both you know biologically and culturally,
Speaker 1: and I certainly got some of that just being in
Speaker 1: that ego twenty four to seven. It's just what a
Speaker 1: learning experience. It's almost like, you know, you read some
Speaker 1: of those books like I hope basically Beer in Hell,
Speaker 1: and it's like textbook, textbook, like the point of your book, Like, sure,
Speaker 1: it's weird how life works out like it is. And
Speaker 1: obviously I saw none of that at the time. Interesting
Speaker 1: did you just think it was cool? I thought it
Speaker 1: was funny, right, And that's what's so interesting. Like, for instance,
Speaker 1: I don't know a Kanye West, but I would imagine
Speaker 1: I have seen this, Like I've spoken to his people that,
Speaker 1: for instance, know Donald Trump, and their opinion of him
Speaker 1: is radically different than my opinion as an outsider. And
Speaker 1: part of that is because it's very hard to be
Speaker 1: sort of destructive and difficult like these people are and
Speaker 1: be successful unless it's combined with an immense kind of
Speaker 1: charisma and sort of adeptness at personal relationships, and so
Speaker 1: like they experience a different Donald Trump than you and
Speaker 1: I do watching him as a raving lunatic on television,
Speaker 1: and I think with Tucker and the people that I
Speaker 1: work for, what you're experiencing is not the obnoxious side
Speaker 1: of their ego. It's being tempered by the personal connection
Speaker 1: you have with them. So I didn't meet character the
Speaker 1: character version of them. I met a different one that
Speaker 1: makes complete sense. I can see reading your book, I
Speaker 1: can see how you're You're obviously more than to some
Speaker 1: of the parts, but I can see, like I read
Speaker 1: certain sentences, I'm like, oh, that was so Robert Greens influence.
Speaker 1: Like every time you say that, I like literally like
Speaker 1: broke it down in my house, Like every time you
Speaker 1: say the word reality, I'm like, there's other greens of it. Yeah, sure,
Speaker 1: every time. And then I can see I sense the
Speaker 1: stoicism influenced this great Stoics, And I can read a
Speaker 1: sentence where you know, you're like, do not be slaves
Speaker 1: your passions, Like, oh, that's just so, this is so,
Speaker 1: it's so cool, like you've had you've had these experiences
Speaker 1: and you bring you know, you are the more of
Speaker 1: some of the parts, of course, but we are all.
Speaker 1: There's like a long chain of things that like if
Speaker 1: you were God, you could explain explain yes, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, No, totally, I mean I love Austin
Speaker 1: Kleon's stuff where he's talking about that basically, you people like,
Speaker 1: how do I develop a style? And he's like, you
Speaker 1: basically just imitate other people's style until you put enough
Speaker 1: of your own touch on it that becomes your own style.
Speaker 1: And so I totally agree. I mean, I feel very
Speaker 1: indebted to Robert. I feel very I love the sort
Speaker 1: of second person style that the Stokes use a lot
Speaker 1: like that they call the reader out in a in
Speaker 1: a way that doesn't feel like it's lecturing. It feels like, hey,
Speaker 1: like you and me, we both have the same problem.
Speaker 1: So I try to I try to write that way.
Speaker 1: And I think I didn't say this at the back
Speaker 1: of the book, Like I feel like, if there are
Speaker 1: any really good sentences in the book, it probably and
Speaker 1: I'm not just saying this, they probably are something I
Speaker 1: unconsciously picked up from someone else. And actually I worry.
Speaker 1: I worry that I might have memorized some sentence from
Speaker 1: someone and and put in there. One of the things
Speaker 1: I did with the book is I hired a fact
Speaker 1: checker to go through and make sure that I didn't
Speaker 1: do that. No, that's really smart, that's where smart. So
Speaker 1: I actually there there are a lot of things you
Speaker 1: wrote in this book that are very beautifully worded. And
Speaker 1: I'm actually just going through my notes right now because
Speaker 1: I want to read something that I did. Okay, responsibility
Speaker 1: requires or readjust and that increase clarity and purpose. First
Speaker 1: setting the top level goals and priorities of the organization
Speaker 1: and your life, then forcing observing them to produce results
Speaker 1: and only results. That was something I remember I trying
Speaker 1: to think what book I would have picked it up on.
Speaker 1: I don't remember what book I picked it up in,
Speaker 1: but I remember seeing an American apparel because I was
Speaker 1: sort of involved in all these different facets as the
Speaker 1: company that normally someone in my position wasn't. And what
Speaker 1: you see is that like, look if that basically, as
Speaker 1: I understand, the way that a corporate hierarchy needs to
Speaker 1: work is that the board of directors thinks the most
Speaker 1: long term, the CEO thinks the second most long term,
Speaker 1: and then down the line until you get to you know,
Speaker 1: the janitor who thinks, like, there's a spill right there,
Speaker 1: and I need to clean it up right, and so,
Speaker 1: you know, running my own company in my own life,
Speaker 1: you realize, like, if you're not thinking long term and
Speaker 1: there's not somebody above you thinking more long term. Then
Speaker 1: you're just wighing it and you're going to get screwed,
Speaker 1: you know. And so that's sort of I was thinking
Speaker 1: about the way in which somebody has to determine what
Speaker 1: the goals or the strategy is is in your life
Speaker 1: or you don't have one for sure. And this idea
Speaker 1: of like having a north star purpose and being consistent
Speaker 1: in your values and your actions is so important for
Speaker 1: well being, you know, like that's what creates an integrated
Speaker 1: human being and that's well And if you don't have that,
Speaker 1: how do you? Especially And I've found, you know, being
Speaker 1: somewhat fortunate that I get a lot of incoming stuff
Speaker 1: like hey do you want to do this? Like hey,
Speaker 1: I'd like you to write that or whatever. How do
Speaker 1: you know what to say no to if you don't
Speaker 1: know what you're trying to do? And like, obviously, I
Speaker 1: think it's harder to talk about that because it feels
Speaker 1: like such a first world problem and most of the
Speaker 1: people in like the sort of self help space or
Speaker 1: the readership, they're trying to get anything going. But I
Speaker 1: think the reality is you must get it. You must
Speaker 1: be inundated with like request like you can choose what
Speaker 1: you're going to research right or what you're going to
Speaker 1: write about. And so if you say yes to everything,
Speaker 1: then how like, how do you know what the right
Speaker 1: thing to say yes to? How do you know you
Speaker 1: know when you've made the wrong choice, Like if you
Speaker 1: don't know, you end up just sort of going wherever
Speaker 1: the random deal flow takes you. Yeah, and you also yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: and you don't create the sense of a coherence or
Speaker 1: meaning totally find out why you're after what you're after.
Speaker 1: Ignore those who mess with your pace, let them come
Speaker 1: it what you have, not the other way around, because
Speaker 1: that's independence. You know, the humanistic great humanistic psychologists the
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties, Roald May you know, like these people
Speaker 1: I'm obsessed with, like Abraham Nasa. Inward it being inwardly
Speaker 1: free is how they describe is kind of the ultimate
Speaker 1: of life, and you're kind of striking at the core
Speaker 1: of that there. Have you ever heard of the band Lucius.
Speaker 1: They're one of my favorite bands. They have this song.
Speaker 1: I forget what the song is called, but there's this
Speaker 1: line in it and she said, I think it's a girl.
Speaker 1: She says, there is no race, there's only a runner
Speaker 1: or there's only the runner, And I think you got
Speaker 1: to think about it that way. It's like, if you
Speaker 1: think that you're in a race with all these other people,
Speaker 1: then you have to like you have to measure yourself
Speaker 1: about whether you're beating them or not, or you know,
Speaker 1: you have to keep their pace. But it's like, you
Speaker 1: don't know. I actually realized this. I was in college.
Speaker 1: I was the first thing I ever wrote is actually
Speaker 1: about this. It's on my website. I don't know when
Speaker 1: it was, but this would have been like ten years ago.
Speaker 1: But I was running. I would run around this like
Speaker 1: sort of dirt track at my college, and I was
Speaker 1: running and then this other guy he started running, and
Speaker 1: I could tell that he was racing me, and I,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm competitive and I wanted to race against him.
Speaker 1: And then I realized, like, but I've already been running
Speaker 1: for like three miles, Like if I keep pace with
Speaker 1: this person, I don't know when he's gonna quit. I
Speaker 1: don't know how long he's been running before. Like, so
Speaker 1: if you just randomly compete with people because they're like
Speaker 1: in the same proximity to you, that's like a recipe
Speaker 1: for totally burning yourself. Out or making a big mistake
Speaker 1: because you you're lacking all the context you need to
Speaker 1: make that decision. Absolutely, So you know when Manuel Miranda, Yes, Hamilton,
Speaker 1: and do you know that Coldes from twenty is interview
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty about like he's like, I wasn't the
Speaker 1: smartest kid in school. I'm just like paraphrasings, but you know,
Speaker 1: I wasn't as necessarily the smartest in school. But what
Speaker 1: I did is I picked a lean that I knew
Speaker 1: I could run fast in and I just ran. You know,
Speaker 1: He's that's great. Yeah, that's a great quote, totally put
Speaker 1: in the show. So okay, So again, some of these
Speaker 1: quotes that from your book that I've highlighted or beautiful
Speaker 1: and different ways. This next one is beautiful just in
Speaker 1: terms of aesthetic appeal to the sentence ego is a
Speaker 1: wicked sister of success. My premise is that ego manifests
Speaker 1: itself differently depending on what you do, right, like egotistic.
Speaker 1: The egotism of a loser is going to be very
Speaker 1: different than the egotism of a billionaire, right, And so
Speaker 1: I think I think one of the crazy things is
Speaker 1: that as you become successful, not only are you if
Speaker 1: you're someone who's saying that you're great all the time.
Speaker 1: But if you do something, then other people are going
Speaker 1: to be telling you that same thing. And so in
Speaker 1: that way, success can breed egotism or reed. It can
Speaker 1: compound those illusions that you already have about yourself. That's great, Okay.
Speaker 1: Next one, a person's job is to create work, and
Speaker 1: idea is not enough. The hard thing isn't dreaming big.
Speaker 1: Imagination is essential, but if it stops with imagination, then
Speaker 1: what good was it? Yeah, and that's the next one.
Speaker 1: Our imagination, in many senses an asset. Is it weird
Speaker 1: that I'm like recolding you in front of you? It
Speaker 1: is strength, It is dangerous when it runs wild. So
Speaker 1: our imagination in many senses an asset is dangerous when
Speaker 1: it runs wild. So you're saying imagination is still only good.
Speaker 1: So I should have a job as a scientist who
Speaker 1: studies imagination. However, you know, not coupled with reality at all, right,
Speaker 1: not not constantly being tested can problem. I think that's
Speaker 1: a huge part. But also because like you know, people
Speaker 1: can live in this sort of fantasy world. But also
Speaker 1: if you're not picking the best of your imagination and
Speaker 1: then you know, making it real, like putting work behind it.
Speaker 1: That's the other problem. So it's like, how many people
Speaker 1: have ideas for books? Like for instance, like I think
Speaker 1: there was like half a million books published last year
Speaker 1: because of self publishing. Now is like gradically expanded it.
Speaker 1: That's awesome, But how many millions of people had this
Speaker 1: exact thought, Oh, you know, it would be a great
Speaker 1: book idea like blank, you know, insert, But how few
Speaker 1: of those people only half a million of them actually
Speaker 1: did it? I yeah, that's a good point. I mean
Speaker 1: there is, like, you know, it's coupled with your whole
Speaker 1: idea in a chapter about talk less you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: do more? So you actually isn't that like a quote
Speaker 1: from Hamilton as well? When he's giving Hamilton advice, He's like,
Speaker 1: I'm got me give you some advice talk less. I
Speaker 1: don't know anyway, you say be lesser, do more is
Speaker 1: a direct quote from your book. Yeah, so this is interesting.
Speaker 1: I've been trying to think understand this. So when you
Speaker 1: say be lesser, you actually do, contrasting to be or
Speaker 1: to do. My conceptulation of being is a little bit
Speaker 1: different than what you put into the book. Are you
Speaker 1: what you describe as being, and so I don't think
Speaker 1: it's incompatible because I think like learning to be is
Speaker 1: really important in this sense to being your full self, yes,
Speaker 1: and having authenticity. So I think it's interesting that you
Speaker 1: can you tell our listeners a little bit what you
Speaker 1: mean by being and how that differs from this sort
Speaker 1: of doing. So that chapter is based on a speech
Speaker 1: that John Boyd has become famous for called it to
Speaker 1: do or to be speech. And if you don't read
Speaker 1: the book, just google the speech because it's like amazing
Speaker 1: and it's in a bunch of articles. But he is
Speaker 1: not saying like, don't be yourself. He's saying there's a
Speaker 1: difference between sort of like and look, he was coming
Speaker 1: from a military background, particularly like the bureaucracy and the Pentagon.
Speaker 1: He's like, don't be the general who has like, you know,
Speaker 1: three stars on their sleeve. Do the work of a
Speaker 1: general who has that right, So he's saying there's a
Speaker 1: distinction between like all the trappings of success and like
Speaker 1: the real work or influence that a successful person can have.
Speaker 1: So like what I say in the book is like
Speaker 1: there's no aircraft carrier named after John Boyd. You know,
Speaker 1: most people have no idea who he was. But he
Speaker 1: transformed the armed forces, like he shepherded the F fifteen
Speaker 1: and the F sixteen through. He was the genius behind
Speaker 1: the Grand Strategy the First Golf War. He was a
Speaker 1: brilliant mind who influenced a lot of people directly and
Speaker 1: also sort of set up this network of proteges that
Speaker 1: had an immense amount of influence. But he wasn't concerned
Speaker 1: with like rank or kissing asses or you know, getting attention.
Speaker 1: He was just so he was focused on the doing
Speaker 1: rather than like the getting credit or getting the rewards
Speaker 1: of doing well. I hear you. You know there's in school,
Speaker 1: a lot of kids are labeled as gifted, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of like a it's a being thing, right,
Speaker 1: Like you're gifted, Like it doesn't say anything about what
Speaker 1: you've actually done in the world. And you know a
Speaker 1: lot of adults as well, it's still they grow up
Speaker 1: and it's still part of their identity. It's a strong
Speaker 1: part of their days. Yeah, basically I'm a gifted adult.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's tricky because in life, you know,
Speaker 1: people tend to appreciate more that you actually do than
Speaker 1: you know, the sure these transitions in life. It's important,
Speaker 1: So it's really interesting. Okay, here's another quote. Ego tells
Speaker 1: us that meaning comes from activity, that being the center
Speaker 1: of attention is the only way to matter. So is
Speaker 1: this something that you discovered when you when you started
Speaker 1: learning more about what the functioning digo is that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: can you impact it a little more? This came more
Speaker 1: from I think my own struggle in the sense that
Speaker 1: it's really hard for me to do nothing, like to
Speaker 1: just sit there and feel like good about myself. But
Speaker 1: if I'm working on something, all of that emptiness or
Speaker 1: doubt or insecurity goes away because, like especially if you're
Speaker 1: good at whatever it is that you do right. So
Speaker 1: it's like I could go to a party and it
Speaker 1: could be awkward or I could feel, you know, insecure
Speaker 1: or whatever. But if I was at home sitting on
Speaker 1: my computer writing would be going well, right, because I'm
Speaker 1: pretty good at it. So I think there's a certain
Speaker 1: ego in sort of gravitating towards what comes naturally to you,
Speaker 1: to your strengths, and this I think work addiction is
Speaker 1: rooted in both insecurity and ego at the same time. Right,
Speaker 1: if I stopped doing I will be nothing and everyone
Speaker 1: will forget about me and I will be worthless. Right,
Speaker 1: So I'm not remembering exactly where that quote comes from.
Speaker 1: That's I think that's what I'm referencing. Yes, and use
Speaker 1: this forgod. No, that's an excellent point. And then you say,
Speaker 1: and I think related to this, you say, ego blocks
Speaker 1: us from the beauty and history in the world. It
Speaker 1: stands in the way you know, I mean that's a
Speaker 1: direct linkage to your firebook, right, the obstacle. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: way Well, I mean if you were to go to, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, some civil war battlefield near you, or
Speaker 1: some beautiful, you know, national park, what would you see.
Speaker 1: You'd see a bunch of people on their cell phones,
Speaker 1: not paying attention, right, Like, we become so detached from
Speaker 1: the world around us because we're focused exclusively on you know,
Speaker 1: our work, email or you know, the bickering with someone
Speaker 1: or whatever is going on. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the ways that we sort of deny how
Speaker 1: ephemeral life is and how vulnerable we are to the
Speaker 1: world is by focusing exclusively on sort of modern shit,
Speaker 1: you know, Like we don't like to be humbled by nature,
Speaker 1: I would say, generally, and so we avoid it. You know,
Speaker 1: you you walk through the redwood forest in you know,
Speaker 1: northern California, and you see a bunch of trees that
Speaker 1: are like five times older than you will ever be right,
Speaker 1: It sort of reminds you just how sort of inconsequential
Speaker 1: you are to all inspiring experience. No, no, no, that's
Speaker 1: exactly what I'm saying. But most people don't seek that
Speaker 1: experience out enough. Like our modern lives are essentially a
Speaker 1: denial of that feeling, right, Like we predict the weather,
Speaker 1: you know, we live in safe housing, we can turn
Speaker 1: on the air conditioner when it gets hot, you know,
Speaker 1: like we have, through our genius as species, insulated ourselves
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways from the the nature. But
Speaker 1: the idea that the world is relatively indifferent to your
Speaker 1: existence is I think an inherently humbling idea that not
Speaker 1: a lot of people contemplate. Glad you made that point, Ryan,
Speaker 1: there's my friend David Niden came out. I don't know
Speaker 1: if you read the paper recently he did where he
Speaker 1: had people simulate like being from space, and he also'd
Speaker 1: be called the overview effect. I love the overview effect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've heard of it. So in a lot of astronauts
Speaker 1: described just and that's kind of the ultimate helpfulness, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: more than just the trees, but actually just looking your
Speaker 1: whole planet as like a little like pin drop, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: a little dog. And yeah, this research suggested does cause
Speaker 1: this entire shift in your whole perspective of yourself and ego.
Speaker 1: I'm just really glad that you made that point. No,
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by the over view effect. There's two things.
Speaker 1: One the guy who has that famous quote the astronoum
Speaker 1: forgetting his name. He just died, but he has that
Speaker 1: one where he's like, you know, you look at the
Speaker 1: world and you just want to He's like, you just
Speaker 1: want to grab the politicians by the by the collar
Speaker 1: and shake them and say like you son of a
Speaker 1: bitch or something like that, which I love. And then
Speaker 1: there's another one where it's like some astronaut who is
Speaker 1: like alone in the space station, like he took this
Speaker 1: photo of Earth, and the writer I think observe this
Speaker 1: someone was like, what's crazy about this photo? Is literally
Speaker 1: everyone who's alive on Earth is in this photo except
Speaker 1: the guy taking it, and like so how you know,
Speaker 1: like how how humbling and crazy? That vantage point is,
Speaker 1: and then couldn't that go both ways? Just to be
Speaker 1: cheeky for a second. I've loved that and give you
Speaker 1: a huge ego to be like, you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: the Oh, I'm special, I'm the only one in the
Speaker 1: entire plotter, Like it's not in this photo fount Like,
Speaker 1: for instance, Donald Trump was like up there, right, that's
Speaker 1: how we would take Why didn't interpret that in a
Speaker 1: different way? I think you're right, Yeah, I mean this.
Speaker 1: So the stoics about taking Plato's view all the time.
Speaker 1: And there's this famous dialogue I think it's from is
Speaker 1: it from Lucian? But anyways, there's this famous Greek poem
Speaker 1: about a guy who gets wings and he's able to
Speaker 1: float above the earth and he sees like the Roman
Speaker 1: army fighting another army, and he says it looks like ants,
Speaker 1: and you know, all that he's able to look at
Speaker 1: the world. It's interesting, like our viewpoint, like what we
Speaker 1: get flying in an airplane. It's interesting to think that
Speaker 1: it was only within the last one hundred years that
Speaker 1: it was even humanly possible for us to look down
Speaker 1: upon humanity and really grasp how infinitesimal we actually are.
Speaker 1: So I love that I think it's inherently ego killing
Speaker 1: to think that way. I've been thinking about this a
Speaker 1: lot lately, and you know, there are a lot of
Speaker 1: people that are like they're obsessed with living forever. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean, because I'm just curious
Speaker 1: if there's an individual differences, Like a lot of people
Speaker 1: aren't obsessed with living forever. Yes, And there are a
Speaker 1: few people they're like they're like, I'm the authority on
Speaker 1: the world and everything, and I think that when I'm
Speaker 1: so optimistic that will live forever. It's like everyone So
Speaker 1: you know, you read one of those articles about like
Speaker 1: a woman who's like one hundred and eighteen years old,
Speaker 1: and you know, they're like, what's life like? You know,
Speaker 1: they're asking all these questions. She's never like there just
Speaker 1: hasn't been enough time, like you know, like she's never
Speaker 1: like I gotta live for five more years. She's they're
Speaker 1: always like super chill and they're just like, when I die,
Speaker 1: I die. It's totally cool. There's something really comforting about
Speaker 1: that for people who you know, I mean, I have
Speaker 1: existential question that's part that's normal. You know, Yes, that's
Speaker 1: not ego necessary. I mean, that's like, you know, I
Speaker 1: what excentual crisis indicate is that you want to make
Speaker 1: sure that you have as much meaning in your life
Speaker 1: as possible. And that's kind of a signal to you
Speaker 1: that maybe you're not maximize meaning. But it's very comforting
Speaker 1: to know for all people, you know, young people out
Speaker 1: there listening to this. You know, like if you have
Speaker 1: these kinds of fears, like chill, like when you get there,
Speaker 1: someday you won't be as obsessed with this. You know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you live a meaningful life if you kind of live
Speaker 1: your life in a way where you you know, follow
Speaker 1: these principles that you talk about in the book, that
Speaker 1: you have a purpose and you do it. It's comforting,
Speaker 1: you know that, Like someday when you're on that deathbed,
Speaker 1: hopefully you'll be very old. You'll actually be okay, You'll
Speaker 1: be like, I'm cool, Yeah, is it? Daniel Gilbert who says,
Speaker 1: like one of the beauties of cognitive dissonance is that
Speaker 1: like whatever you're anxious about, if it actually happens, you won't,
Speaker 1: like your mind will find some rationalization for so like
Speaker 1: maybe maybe you actually will be feeling maybe there actually
Speaker 1: will be things to regret, but your mind won't actually
Speaker 1: let you feel the regret that you're dreading. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the lyrics is called effective forecasting. Yeah, you're right. And
Speaker 1: actually Laura King has done really cool research showing that
Speaker 1: the difference between people who regret things the whole life
Speaker 1: and people who don't. They both have had the same
Speaker 1: amount of regretful experiences, but the difference is they've actually
Speaker 1: like quantify it. It's really cooled. It's sending the review
Speaker 1: paper if you want to read it. Yeah, find that
Speaker 1: those who live at the very end of their lives,
Speaker 1: they're like, you know what, I don't have any regrets.
Speaker 1: They have done deeper work pros coggally processing and making
Speaker 1: meaning out of all the trials and tribulations and alternate
Speaker 1: identities that they didn't accomplish in a way that makes
Speaker 1: them kind of like okay with it. You know, they're like,
Speaker 1: you know what, that's cool. That had meaning. My life
Speaker 1: had meaning because I didn't take that that right. So yeah,
Speaker 1: related that you say there was no grand narrative, you
Speaker 1: should remember you were there when it happened. I love
Speaker 1: that quote. I love that quote. Can you well impact
Speaker 1: that we were talking about this a little bit earlier,
Speaker 1: is that you know, you in retrospect, you can create
Speaker 1: some clarity out of events. Right, It's like I did this,
Speaker 1: which led to that, which led to this, which led
Speaker 1: to that, and now I'm you know, the best in
Speaker 1: the world or whatever you know story you tell yourself,
Speaker 1: but you should remember, like you didn't feel that way
Speaker 1: at the time because it didn't really exist, right it was,
Speaker 1: And coaches talked about this like Vince Lombardi is is like,
Speaker 1: at the end of it, let's say a super Bowl
Speaker 1: winning season, all of the super Bowl didn't really exists.
Speaker 1: Then you know, the end of the season, you can
Speaker 1: look at the fact that you won and say, like,
Speaker 1: we won for these reasons. What you never seem to
Speaker 1: do is go like, hey, remember when that ref blew
Speaker 1: that call in the third quarter? It to our benefit.
Speaker 1: We wouldn't be here if that hadn't happened. So all
Speaker 1: of this is like, you know, not our doing. And
Speaker 1: so I think it's interesting when you look at the
Speaker 1: narratives that we have, how self serving they are. They
Speaker 1: either make us much better than we actually are, or
Speaker 1: they make us the victim in a way that we
Speaker 1: probably fully warned. That reminds me of a golf. You
Speaker 1: just triggered a golf quote in me. The great failing
Speaker 1: is to see yourself as more than you are and
Speaker 1: to value yourself at less than your true work. That's
Speaker 1: the great failing. Both both those directions. Yeah, right, and
Speaker 1: I talk about the golden mean a little bit. I
Speaker 1: don't think that. I'm not saying that humility is the
Speaker 1: opposite of ego. I'm saying that humility is the midpoint between, say,
Speaker 1: ego and like self loathing. So I think humility is
Speaker 1: like the perfect balance, or I would say confidence and
Speaker 1: humility in some ways are synonyms. Awesome, right, I'm sending
Speaker 1: you right now a link to this whole research literature
Speaker 1: that I've been doing some research on called the Quiet Ego.
Speaker 1: Oh awesome, And it's just so much in line with
Speaker 1: that and also related to the death thing. They found
Speaker 1: that when they instill they kind of experimentally manipulate humility,
Speaker 1: like experiment manipulate it, people fear death less. So that's
Speaker 1: actually a drift test of this idea that narcissism is
Speaker 1: associated with your fear of death. Interesting. Yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: see this right. I'm gonna send you this right now
Speaker 1: before Okay, Okay, so you talk about the difference between
Speaker 1: a live time and dead time when that's that's something
Speaker 1: that one of your mentors taught you, right, Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: from Robert Green. It was when I was thinking about
Speaker 1: leaving American Apparel. I had a better year left that
Speaker 1: I needed to sort of do, not contractually, but I
Speaker 1: just I wasn't. I only had the position for you know,
Speaker 1: a relatively short amount of time. I needed to put
Speaker 1: more time in. And Robert was just like, look, you know,
Speaker 1: this year can be a live time for you or deadtime.
Speaker 1: What are you what are you talking about? I mean
Speaker 1: basically meant He's like, you know, you can you can
Speaker 1: get every second out of this and you can use
Speaker 1: the benefits of your position to meet people, to do research,
Speaker 1: to develop relationships, you know, to to learn and to
Speaker 1: take things sort of slow. Or you can just sort
Speaker 1: of ride this year out and then start for you know,
Speaker 1: Like basically, he was like, you want to write a
Speaker 1: book at the you know, you want to be a
Speaker 1: writer after you leave. You can start writing the day
Speaker 1: after you leave, or you can do all the work
Speaker 1: that you need to do before that time and get
Speaker 1: a head start. And that's what I ultimately ended up
Speaker 1: dotting doing and I think that's I credit that very
Speaker 1: much with being able to sort of get this career
Speaker 1: off the ground maybe quicker than other people might be
Speaker 1: able to good. So so his advice worked. Yeah, I know,
Speaker 1: it was great. It was great, and I try to
Speaker 1: think about it all the time. I think you don't
Speaker 1: just apply it to Hey, you know, I signed a
Speaker 1: four year contract with the Marines and I've got you know,
Speaker 1: a year left. It's also like I'm stuck in traffic,
Speaker 1: or you know, my friend was supposed to meet me
Speaker 1: at four o'clock and they just texted me to say
Speaker 1: they're not going to be here to four forty five.
Speaker 1: What are you going to do with those forty five minutes?
Speaker 1: Are you going to play you know, angry birds on
Speaker 1: your phone? Or are you going to read a book
Speaker 1: or make a phone call or go for a walk
Speaker 1: or you know, what are you going to do? Ran?
Speaker 1: I want to ask you a question about this because
Speaker 1: I feel like, I, you know, I'm very aware that
Speaker 1: life is short and that we want, we need to
Speaker 1: maximize our time. But I find that I can get
Speaker 1: too obsessed with like, oh, well, I have a full
Speaker 1: day free, Well that means I can write four blog
Speaker 1: some five journal articles as opposed to actually like getting
Speaker 1: like pleasure, like you know, there are things I miss,
Speaker 1: like you know, like watching movies that are just stupid,
Speaker 1: you know, like comedies, you know they and because I
Speaker 1: think I can get too addicted to meaning, do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? I agree with that. The idea
Speaker 1: that you have to squeeze every productive second out of
Speaker 1: every minute, I think is you've got to understand that,
Speaker 1: you know, the body is not a even Actually no,
Speaker 1: and maybe you do see the body as a machine.
Speaker 1: Machines can overheat and break and wear down if you
Speaker 1: don't treat them well. Good. I like that resolution. That's
Speaker 1: good justification for binge watching on Netflix. Yeah, look, you
Speaker 1: got to know what's going on in the culture, man,
Speaker 1: that's what you tell yourself. Good good, Okay, thanks for
Speaker 1: that reconciliation. Okay, So what's the difference between ambition insanity?
Speaker 1: So that's from a quote from Marcus Aurelias. He's saying
Speaker 1: ambition is tying yourself to other people, right, because like
Speaker 1: if you want to do something or be recognized that
Speaker 1: you know, you want to become a Roman position. So
Speaker 1: if you want to be console or a general or
Speaker 1: a senator. That requires other people doing what you want. Right,
Speaker 1: someone has to grant you that position. You have to
Speaker 1: be elected. So he's saying ambition is tying yourself to
Speaker 1: something you don't control. He's saying sanity is tying it
Speaker 1: to your own actions. So like, for instance, my book
Speaker 1: is out this week. If I tie my if I
Speaker 1: tie my happiness to writing a good book that I'm
Speaker 1: proud of, to working hard on it, et cetera, that
Speaker 1: is sanity. Tying it to whether it hits the New
Speaker 1: York Times best Seller list or sells an arbitrary number
Speaker 1: of copies is insanity because I don't control those things.
Speaker 1: So that kind of and this is will end of
Speaker 1: this note. I mean that really strikes the heart of
Speaker 1: what this book is all about. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: an interesting thought experiment. What happens when our ego In
Speaker 1: a way, the thought experiment is kind of like this,
Speaker 1: Like what happens if, like we die and our work
Speaker 1: still goes on? Like what do we really care about
Speaker 1: in life? Do we care about us living forever, our
Speaker 1: ego living forever, or our work to help the world
Speaker 1: as long as possible. It's kind of an It kind
Speaker 1: of lies at the heart of a lot of what
Speaker 1: your book is about, right I think that's true, although
Speaker 1: there's a certain amount of ego in those people, and
Speaker 1: the Stokes talk about this a lot who lust for
Speaker 1: this posthumous fame, right like, oh, I need generations to
Speaker 1: hear my name forever, you know. The Stokes are like,
Speaker 1: what do you care you're dead? You know, like, like
Speaker 1: I have that's so stoicism, like a lot of the Stoics.
Speaker 1: I have a line. I don't think it's in this book.
Speaker 1: I think it's something I'm working on now. But but
Speaker 1: it's basically it's like, you know, Alexandria is named after
Speaker 1: Alexander the Great, but he's dead, so he has no
Speaker 1: idea that it still exists, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: and so you what does matter is what he did
Speaker 1: in his own life, often, you know, terrible, awful things
Speaker 1: that couldn't have made him feel good either. Right now,
Speaker 1: that's a really good clarification. And when you take the
Speaker 1: ego out of the equation, though, I mean, you do
Speaker 1: see and as your book shows you that you have
Speaker 1: a greater likelihood of making an impact on the world hopefully.
Speaker 1: So I want to leave on that note because I
Speaker 1: think your message gets across in really loud and clear,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a really terrific book. So thanks
Speaker 1: Ryan for being thank you one for writing this book. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm so glad we bumped into each other at a
Speaker 1: random Mexican restaurant in Malabou five years ago. Me too.
Speaker 1: I look forward to the next podcast chat when the
Speaker 1: next book comes out. Thank you all the best, Ryan,
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Psychology Podcast with Doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman. I hope you found this episode just as
Speaker 1: thought for booking and interesting as I did. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to read the show notes for this episode or
Speaker 1: hear past episodes, you can visit the Psychology Podcast dot
Speaker 1: com bu