1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:02,920 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:08,160 Speaker 2: A shock ruling. 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 3: Brian Coburger charged in four murders of beautiful Idaho students 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 3: dead in their beds. His murder trial has been moved 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 3: after fear of threats. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us. 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 4: Brian Coberger's defense files for a trial venue change, citing extensive, 8 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 4: ongoing and inflammatory publicity. Will the motion be successful? 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 3: In a bombshell shock ruling, the Coburger trial will be moved. 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 2: The judge in this case, his last name is Judge. 11 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 3: Judge Judge, has decided that, based on alleged threats which 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:01,760 Speaker 3: were developed during a defense poll a potential journal, the 13 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 3: trial should be moved. The judge also cites the fact 14 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 3: that a larger courthouse may be more appropriate. Lota County 15 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 3: has the population of around forty thousand people, not so 16 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 3: in a nearby county of Aida population about five hundred thousand. 17 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: But here's the cash. 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 3: Be careful what you wish for, you may surely get it. 19 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 3: The defenses ask for a venue change, they've gotten a 20 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:31,240 Speaker 3: venue change. 21 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 2: But that's like having a tiger by the tail. You 22 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 2: can't hold on it. 23 00:01:34,200 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: You can't let go. 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,760 Speaker 3: What are you gonna do? You ask for it, you 25 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: got it. There's no reversal on that now. But they 26 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 3: don't get to pick the jurisdiction. For all we know, 27 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: they could go to an even more conservative jurisdiction. Now 28 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: what does that mean. I don't mean how they vote 29 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 3: in an election. I mean how they feel and approach 30 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 3: violent crime charges. 31 00:01:59,080 --> 00:01:59,919 Speaker 2: Also, we've got. 32 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 3: A by saying that the courthouse may be too small 33 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 3: in Latta County that could indicate one of the few jurisdictions. 34 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: Where there is a much larger courthouse. 35 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 3: Joining me in All Star panel to make sense of 36 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 3: what we know right now, But first listen to this. 37 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 5: In pushing to have his trial moved out of Letaw County, Idaho, 38 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 5: Brian Coberger's defense team says he will be lynched and 39 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 5: riots will erupt if he is acquitted of the murders 40 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 5: of four college students in the same town where the 41 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 5: murders occurred. Coburger's team argues he would be subjected to 42 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 5: mob mentality and cites alleged threats from local residents that 43 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 5: they would burn down the courthouse if he is acquitted. 44 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 2: I want to make it very clear there is no 45 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: lynch mob. 46 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 3: There's no one circling the courthouse or the jail with 47 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 3: pitchforks and torches. That's not happening. Where do these alleged 48 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 3: threats originate? 49 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 2: Listen. 50 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 6: Brian Coberger's defense team conducted a phone survey of hundreds 51 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,280 Speaker 6: of potential jurors in Leytog County, asking them multiple questions 52 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 6: about their knowledge of the case. According to the defense team, 53 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,920 Speaker 6: there is a bias against Coburger, revealed in answers to 54 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 6: questions such as what would happen if Coburger is not convicted? 55 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 6: Potential jurors in Leytak County answered that question with they'd 56 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 6: burn the courthouse down. Outrage would be a mild description. 57 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 6: They would probably find him and kill him, and there 58 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 6: would likely be a riot, and he wouldn't last long 59 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 6: outside because someone would do the good old boy justice 60 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 6: and finally riots parents would take care of him. 61 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 7: Hm. 62 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: Now that was elicited. Those comments were elicited by the 63 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: defense in a poll that they did with potential jurors. Now, 64 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: what does that mean? 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: Sometimes you got to read the tea leaves. 66 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 3: What does it all mean? The riding on the wall, 67 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 3: so to speak. The defense also mentioned another jurisdiction. 68 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 5: Listen, the Coburger defense team that claims their survey shows 69 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 5: a bias against Coburger and Laytak County suggests something different 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 5: may happen in Aida County, where prospective jurors offered up 71 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 5: very different responses to the same questions. Where prospective Leyta 72 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 5: County jurors expect riots to occur, Aida County residents seem 73 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 5: to think, quote, they would go on with life as always. 74 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 5: Another perspective juror says, quote, I think they would take 75 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 5: it well. Brian Coberger's defense team also points to the 76 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 5: recent cases of Lori Valo Dabil and Chad Daybel, who 77 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,679 Speaker 5: had their trials moved from Fremont County to Ada County 78 00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 5: due to publicity. 79 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 3: And in the cases of cultmom Laurie Valo and her 80 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 3: prophet husband Chad Dabail. He gets the DP she does not. 81 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 3: So what does that mean? What does that mean for Coburger? 82 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:50,640 Speaker 3: Again joining me in all Star pal to make sense 83 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 3: of what we know right now, but straight out to 84 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 3: Howard Bloom spelled Blum pronounced Bloom like the Flower, author 85 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 3: of a hit book When the Night Comes Falling, a 86 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 3: requiem for the Idaho student murderers, Howard, thank you. 87 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:07,360 Speaker 2: For being with us. 88 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 3: What do you make of them getting a change of venue? 89 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: The defense gets a change of venue. And I just 90 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: want to tell you one more thing. Let me set 91 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 2: you up. 92 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: Many people are claiming, oh, the defendant gets everything he wants. 93 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 2: This is wrong. Can I tell you something. 94 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 3: It's going to be extremely onerous for the state to 95 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 3: prove its case in another jurisdiction. 96 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 2: However, when there is a. 97 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: Conviction, and I predict there will be a conviction, everyone 98 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 3: who complained. 99 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 2: About the venue change will thank judge. 100 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: Judge, because that's one last thing for the defense to 101 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 3: bring up on appeal. 102 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 2: And that's a very volatile issue on. 103 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: Appeal, okay, because the appellate court has to take the 104 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: facts as given them by the lawyers. They're not a 105 00:05:57,080 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 3: fact finder, so they have to just basically read transcripts, 106 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 3: so they have to discern should there have been of 107 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 3: any change based on the transcripts everything the defense said. 108 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: At that motion's hearing. 109 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 3: So as painful as it is, I think the judge 110 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 3: was correct, Howard. 111 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:19,719 Speaker 7: Bloom, I agree, he really had no choice. This is 112 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 7: a death penalty case. It's going to come up for 113 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 7: appeal he had to make sure that there was one 114 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 7: less area for them to appeal about. What was so 115 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:32,240 Speaker 7: interesting to me, though, was that the prosecution really didn't 116 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 7: challenge the authorities, the experts that were brought forward by 117 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 7: the defense. They never did. Numbers were thrown at the judge. 118 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 7: Sixty eight percent of the people in one county thought 119 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,719 Speaker 7: he was guilty, sixty seven and another county thought he 120 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 7: was guilty. Why didn't the defense of the prosecution rather say, 121 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 7: let's look at those numbers, let's look how they did 122 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 7: the math. They never really did the hard work. And 123 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,719 Speaker 7: the key issue here is not really moving the case 124 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 7: that I think was inevitable. But the real issue is, 125 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,120 Speaker 7: as you referred to earlier, judge, judge is going to 126 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,520 Speaker 7: be leaving. That brings in a whole new ballgame, a 127 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 7: whole new judge who will look at discovery motions, who 128 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 7: will try to have to catch up on the information. 129 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 7: It means perhaps even more delays of the trial. 130 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: Well, what happened in the hearing. In the hearing did the. 131 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: Judge make any allusion to the fact he would no 132 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:31,679 Speaker 3: longer be on the case. 133 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 7: In his ruling and is written ruling, he put in 134 00:07:36,120 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 7: language that says the decision is going to be decided 135 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 7: by the administration of the Supreme Court of Idaho. That 136 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 7: tacitly implies that the decision will be made, that he 137 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 7: is leaving the case, and that a judgement that seems 138 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 7: to be a certainty. 139 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: Howard Blome, You're right. 140 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 3: In the language the judge used to grant the chance 141 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:05,560 Speaker 3: a venue, he did not include language specifically asking or 142 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: stating he would stay on the case. 143 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 2: That would be expected. That didn't happen. So we're going 144 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 2: to have a whole new judge. 145 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: Guys joining me in all star panel to figure out 146 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 3: what this means for the trial that we now know 147 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 3: is going forward we think is going forward next summer. 148 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 5: Listen the Coburger defense team that claims their survey shows 149 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 5: a bias against Coburger and Leaytak County suggests something different 150 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 5: may happen in Aida County, where prospective jurors offered up 151 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 5: very different responses to the same questions. Where prospective Leyta 152 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 5: County jurors expect riots to occur, Aida County residents seem 153 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 5: to think, quote they would go on with life as always. 154 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 5: Another perspective juror says, quote I think they would take 155 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 5: it well. Brian Coberger's defense team also points to the 156 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 5: recent cases of Lori Valodabil and Chad Daybill, who had 157 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 5: their trials moved from Fremont County to Ada County due 158 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 5: to publicists. 159 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 3: Straight out to Stephanie Pitcher, a defense attorney, former felony prosecutor, 160 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:11,719 Speaker 3: and she is with Parker and Maconcole. Stephanie, thank you 161 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 3: for being with us. We've seen a lot of venue 162 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 3: changes in high profile cases. But what in reality does 163 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 3: this mean? What can you tell us about Ada County? 164 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 2: Now? Just because the defense brings. 165 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,719 Speaker 3: Up Ada County and its motions does not mean that's 166 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 3: where the trial is going to be. The Idaho Supreme 167 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 3: Court will make that decision in its wisdom. 168 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 1: But what about Aida County. 169 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 8: The change of venue, we still don't know where this 170 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 8: is going to go. It's up to the Supreme Court 171 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 8: to make that decision. But I think the defense team 172 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,640 Speaker 8: is looking at Ada County as a possibility just due 173 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 8: to the nature of the size of that county. There 174 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 8: are many more prospective jurors that could join and weigh in. 175 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 8: These same jurors aren't going to have the same bias 176 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 8: that the defense team argues is present in law and 177 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 8: so I think Ada County is at the top of 178 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,199 Speaker 8: people's minds simply due to the size Moscow. 179 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:06,560 Speaker 1: Yes, you're right. 180 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 3: According to the last census they were at about thirty 181 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 3: nine thousand, and Aida was about half a million. Of course, 182 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 3: we also have heard discussions of boise as well as 183 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 3: Stephanie Pitcher. 184 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 2: What do you make of that? 185 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 3: And in your experience of trying cases, how difficult is it? 186 00:10:30,679 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 3: Of course, the state is the one that bears the burden, 187 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 3: so it's much harder on the state. 188 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: What do you make of that Boise? 189 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 8: You know Boise, Yes, certainly, Boise is a possibility. I 190 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,360 Speaker 8: think that the outcome ultimately is going to be the same. 191 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 8: We saw this with the Chad Dave Belt. Yeah, the 192 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,840 Speaker 8: Chad and Lauren Voo cases as well. There was a 193 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 8: change of venue. They went into Ada County, a much 194 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 8: larger population of jurors. I think that the defense team 195 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,640 Speaker 8: is crossing their tees and dotting their eyes there things 196 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 8: that they need to move on behalf of their client 197 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 8: so that they don't see any ineffective assistance of council, 198 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 8: so that they give him a strong defense. But ultimately 199 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 8: I think that the outcome is going to be the 200 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:12,959 Speaker 8: same regardless of where it's moved. 201 00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 3: Joining us doctor Bethany Marshall or now psychoanalyst joining us 202 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 3: out of LA, author of deal Breaker. You can see 203 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,400 Speaker 3: her on Peacock as well, she said doctor Bethany Marshall 204 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 3: dot com Doctor Bethany, I understand why various family members 205 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 3: are saying this is unfair that he always gets everything 206 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:34,199 Speaker 3: he wants. He has been getting everything he wants in 207 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: a legal manner of speaking, but that is to ensure 208 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 3: the trial process and to ensure that a conviction is held. 209 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: It's right this wasn't granted and then there was a conviction. 210 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 3: This would be a huge avenue of appeal. But it 211 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 3: doesn't feel that way at the time for family members. 212 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,680 Speaker 9: No, Nancy, If they were in my office, I would 213 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,880 Speaker 9: do some thing called psycho education. That's where I would 214 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:05,640 Speaker 9: educate them about the fact that going through a long, 215 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:11,760 Speaker 9: prolonged court proceeding can feel victimizing or retraumatizing. At the 216 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 9: same time, I would educate them. 217 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: About the justice system. 218 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: What did you just say about retraumatizing. 219 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 9: The legal system often retraumatizes the victims. They have to 220 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 9: hear the same stories again and again. The outcome is 221 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 9: dependent on yours and a judge. They have to think, feel, eat, sleep, 222 00:12:34,520 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 9: Brian Koberger for months and perhaps even years, and this 223 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 9: is going to make them feel re traumatized. And so 224 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,959 Speaker 9: I would try to educate them about the criminal justice 225 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 9: system and the fact that these delays are actually in 226 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 9: order to meet their needs, to meet the needs of 227 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 9: the victim, to find justice for their children, because at 228 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 9: this point it doesn't seem that anybody's educating them in 229 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 9: the same way you are, Nancy. You're explaining to all 230 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 9: of us that dragging this out, which is how they're 231 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 9: going to experience it, actually ensures a conviction. It doesn't 232 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 9: sound like they really know that. 233 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 3: The case is now going to be tried next summer. 234 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 3: Are they talking about summer twenty five or summer twenty six? 235 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: By next summer. 236 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 7: They are talking about summer twenty five. But that's just 237 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 7: what they're talking about now. Once there is a new 238 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 7: judge on the case, everything can be relooked at again. 239 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 7: We're really starting for scratch. What's also really interesting, I 240 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 7: think is a new judge can rule on discovery information 241 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 7: what the defense really wants more than a change of venue, 242 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 7: I believe is to get more discovery information. They want 243 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 7: to see how this sausage was put together, how this 244 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,679 Speaker 7: case was made. They've been complaining they really don't understand 245 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 7: how the authorities got onto Coburger. The key to that 246 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 7: is the genetic information. They want to see through the discovery, 247 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 7: how the FBI cracked the genetic investigation. Judge judge has 248 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 7: not given them sufficient information. Perhaps they believe a new 249 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 7: judge will. That's the key issue here. 250 00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 3: I think, Okay, hold on, hold on right there, Bloom, 251 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 3: hold on right there. Hold the judge has given them 252 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 3: sufficient information, but I think that they will get even 253 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:29,080 Speaker 3: more data. It's really simple how the l E in 254 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 3: the area law enforcement got on to Coburger, and it 255 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 3: really at the outset had nothing to do with DNA analysis. 256 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 3: Joining me Chris McDonough, director of the Cold Case Foundation, 257 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 3: former homicide detective around three hundred homicides under his belt, 258 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 3: and host of the Interview Room on YouTube. 259 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: Chris, thank you for being with us. 260 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: You and I have both spent a lot of time 261 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 3: in Moscow. It's a very small and very tight knit community, 262 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 3: and it's a college community which many people consider to 263 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 3: be liberal. Don't know if that's always true, but that said, 264 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: it all started when Coburger was driving his car. 265 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 2: Oh yes, good times. There we are outside the crime scene. 266 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 3: When Coburger drove his car past a little gas station 267 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 3: at about four a m. 268 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: And a clerk pulled. 269 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 3: It and saw an a Lantra. But at the very 270 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 3: outset an Lantra was mentioned. And it's my understanding Chris 271 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 3: McDonough that the campus security over where he Coburger was 272 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 3: studying to get his pH d, they pulled everybody that 273 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 3: had an Lantra and his name came up. 274 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: That's how it all started with his car. 275 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean it was great initial gum shoe. You know, 276 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 10: police work where you know, they had a vehicle, they 277 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 10: had phone paying a variety you know, within that area. 278 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 10: They hadn't identified a phone yet initially, but they had 279 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 10: a vehicle on video coming up that street from that 280 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 10: one house on the corner. I would submit and still, 281 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 10: and all of a sudden they started looking for this 282 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 10: car and long behold, a young patrol officer over at 283 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 10: you know, the Western University over there in Washington pulls 284 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 10: up this guy's car and goes, hey, wait a minute, 285 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 10: we got we got one right here, and they were 286 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 10: off to the races. 287 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 4: The judge officially sets Coburger's trial to begin in June 288 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 4: twenty twenty five, more than two and a half years 289 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 4: after the stabbing death. So, for Idaho students. 290 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:58,680 Speaker 11: Our defence team firmly and I mean firmly believes in 291 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 11: mister Coberger's in a sense, and right now he's being 292 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,560 Speaker 11: held to have a trial in a county that believes 293 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 11: that he is guilty. If you deny a change of venue, 294 00:17:09,600 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 11: mister Coberger's constitutional right to a fair trial is denied. 295 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 3: In the last hours, the judge in this case, presiding 296 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 3: over the Coburger quadruple murder. 297 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,879 Speaker 2: Case, has moved venue. Whole new courthouse, whole, new judge, 298 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 2: all new rulings. 299 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,199 Speaker 3: We'll see where that lands the defense. But let's just 300 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 3: get a reality check. What is his case all about? 301 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: Before we get mired down in legal minutia. 302 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: What's it all about? 303 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, 304 00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:46,880 Speaker 3: author of Blood. 305 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 2: Beneath My Feet and star of a hitting new. 306 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 3: Series podcast, Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, 307 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 3: you know I think this is a lot when I 308 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: was trying cases, and now I look at every body 309 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: all dressed to the nines, perfectly groomed in court, the 310 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 3: defendant flanked by his lawyers, both council tables covered in 311 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:17,440 Speaker 3: documents and legal research and exhibits, and all the media. 312 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 2: Sitting there quietly to take you notes. 313 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:24,320 Speaker 12: Everything is so pristine and so perfect. 314 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:28,960 Speaker 2: Ain't it? But that is not what this case is about. 315 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 3: This case is about these the four victims that were brutally, 316 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 3: brutally murdered, unarmed, many of them in their own beds, 317 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 3: at the witching hour between three and four o'clock in 318 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 3: the morning. 319 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: What happened to. 320 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: These four beautiful Idaho students, sharp. 321 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 13: Force injuries, multiple of them, on probably all four victims, Nancy, 322 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 13: and and we're talking about an individual that moved, whoever 323 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 13: did this attack, moved between several floors while they were 324 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 13: perpetrating this, And there would not be a pristine environment. 325 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 13: You're talking about probably a supersaturated area involving blood that 326 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 13: would have been adjacent to the bodies on the bodies. 327 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 13: And isn't that the contrast You talk about this kind 328 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 13: of pristine courtroom environment, and then they're going to introduce 329 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,920 Speaker 13: these images into the courtroom, and you're going to hear 330 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,479 Speaker 13: people like myself and certainly the forensic pathologists. They're going 331 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 13: to sit there and they're going to talk about how 332 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 13: brutal these killings were. They're going to talk about stab 333 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 13: wounds as well as in sized wounds. We know of 334 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 13: one victim that her hands was cut down allegedly to 335 00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 13: her tendons. So this is the height of brutality. And 336 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 13: I can understand while they're worried about this, the defense 337 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 13: that is, because when it's revealed, it is going to 338 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 13: shock the court, and I think, probably to a certain extent, 339 00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 13: shock all of us as well. We don't know the 340 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:07,159 Speaker 13: full extent. 341 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: Yet, you know, Joe Scott, When I think about the victim, 342 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:16,679 Speaker 3: one of them waking up and saying, somebody's here, you know, 343 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 3: they're groggy, These four Moscow students, Idaho University students, waking 344 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 3: up and groggy and confused. I could no more fight 345 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 3: off an armed killer at four o'clock in the morning 346 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: than the man in the moon. But this guy, the killer, 347 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,479 Speaker 3: was awake and alert, dressed in black, wearing a mask. 348 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 3: After surveilling them for the Lord only knows how long, 349 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 3: for just the right night, just the right moment, just 350 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 3: the right minute, and then slashed them to death in 351 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 3: that groggy, nocturnal Some ambulance state that they weren't in 352 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: scott they couldn't fight back. 353 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 13: Yeah, their pain centers would have been firing, and that 354 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:07,879 Speaker 13: would have been the first Well, they probably would have 355 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 13: felt the weight and then their pain shats firing. 356 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,160 Speaker 1: Their pain centers start firing. 357 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 13: What do you mean, Well, every time this and keep 358 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 13: in mind, the weapon that they're talking about, Nancy, is 359 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,760 Speaker 13: a kpar and the length of this blade is listen 360 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 13: to me now, seven inches in the link seven inches 361 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 13: of steel, Okay, that you're talking about. So we're talking 362 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,479 Speaker 13: about stab wounds, which people understand is where a blade 363 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 13: is inserted. And we're also talking about in sized wounds 364 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 13: allegedly where things are slid. That well, let's just think 365 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 13: about And the way I compare it when I teach 366 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 13: my students is we'll take actually a piece of fruit 367 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 13: and take a knife and draw it across the surface 368 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 13: of it, and depend upon how much pressure is applied, 369 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 13: that correlates to the depth of the injury. Now you've 370 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 13: got individuals here that are they're aware of this, and 371 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,680 Speaker 13: there's going to be a lot of twisting and turning. 372 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 13: That's why every time this knife is introduced into their body, 373 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 13: onto any shod Okay. 374 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: Slow down, I'm trying to take it in. Let me 375 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 3: drinking from the fire. Hiject twisting and turning. What does 376 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 3: that have to do with anything? Of course they're trying 377 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 3: to get away in there. 378 00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 13: Yeah, but it's also the pain. It's the response. That's 379 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 13: why I said the response to the paint center's firing, 380 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 13: because I mean, just think about it. Even if you're 381 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 13: in a groggy state, once those receptors are firing, it's 382 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 13: going to your brain. The first thing you want to do. 383 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 13: It's like a beasting. You want to try to get 384 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,199 Speaker 13: away from it. Well just imagine this happening to you 385 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 13: over and over and over again, and so that gives 386 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 13: you an idea. And I like the way you painted this. 387 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 13: How they're in this kind of groggy state. It's dark. 388 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 13: I don't know about you, like sleep in a dark bedroom, 389 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 13: can't sleep with a lot of light. And also one 390 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 13: other thing, it would have taken them maybe a bit 391 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 13: more time to respond. There's some indication that they may 392 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 13: have all been out that night. I think that we 393 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,639 Speaker 13: kind of understand that alcohol may have been in vibe, 394 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 13: so that's going to be a factor too, and their 395 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 13: ability to respond it, to defend themselves. Nanswer. 396 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 3: Just thinking about what you are saying. You said something 397 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 3: about pain receptors firing. I'm trying to understand what that means. 398 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 3: Them getting out of bed and they're totally out of it, 399 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 3: and the first thing they register. 400 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:35,439 Speaker 12: Is intense, unbelievable pain from being stabbed repeatedly where a 401 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 12: seven inch blade, as you said, seven inches of steel. 402 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 3: Yes, you say the pain receptors start firing. I guess 403 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 3: that means they're brought to screams, to tears out of 404 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:50,280 Speaker 3: the pain. 405 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 2: Is that what that means? 406 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 13: Yes, absolutely, it's a reactive event. It's very primal. And 407 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 13: here's the other thing that people might not be aware of. 408 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 13: We have we have two people in each room that 409 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 13: were attacked, So there would be an awareness perhaps obviously 410 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,200 Speaker 13: of the first person that's being attacked of their pain 411 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 13: centers firing, and then the other person if they are 412 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 13: able to, if they're coming out of the scrogginess, they're 413 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,359 Speaker 13: going to hear a sound and it will be reactive. 414 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 13: The trick is that you know, and you have to 415 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 13: understand this. They couldn't react quick enough either, even though 416 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 13: someone else was initially stuffed, you know. 417 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:35,920 Speaker 3: To doctor Bethany Marshall going off, jumping off what Professor 418 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 3: Joseph Scott Morgan has just told us. 419 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 2: Think about where's Bethany. 420 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 3: Bethany the defense gets With all of this in mind, 421 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 3: the pain I'd rather endure itt myself than think my 422 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 3: child lived through what these four lived through. 423 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 2: Now think about it. 424 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,719 Speaker 3: The parents of these poor victims have had to hear 425 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 3: about he wants the laptop, he wants more visits with 426 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 3: his priest and his lawyer, he wants a special diet, 427 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 3: he wants a lone time, he wants exercise, he wants 428 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 3: internet access. 429 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: I mean, does it never end? And they have. 430 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 3: To go to bed every night thinking about their children 431 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 3: and their pain receptors and being wrint to shreds by 432 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 3: the killer. 433 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 9: And this is the problem with trials with these psychopaths 434 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,600 Speaker 9: like Brian Koberger. Not only do they get off on 435 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 9: the crime, the infliction of pain, the stealth, the whole 436 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 9: activity that the crime is planned out to give him 437 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 9: the utmost satisfaction and sexual pleasure. But now he's in 438 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 9: court and the crime is being relived, it's being talked about, 439 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 9: he's being shown images of it. Who knows underneath that 440 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 9: flat effect what he's really feeling and thinking. It could 441 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 9: be sexual excitement, it could be a thrill, It could 442 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 9: be like we saw with Rex Huerman who called the victims' 443 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,840 Speaker 9: families sort of this satisfaction that the family members are 444 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 9: sitting there. Now they have to live through it. So 445 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 9: this is the re victimization and the retraumatization that the 446 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 9: family is going to go through, you know, Nancy, Trauma 447 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 9: doesn't just come from us being hurt. Trauma is when 448 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 9: you see that a loved one has been hurt. It's 449 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 9: really witnessing the pain and the suffering of. 450 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,119 Speaker 2: The other, not the self. 451 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 9: And I think about these victims. I think what happened 452 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 9: in that night too, besides the pain centers being activated, 453 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:39,919 Speaker 9: is that they were extremely disoriented and they were in 454 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 9: a bed. 455 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: There was no place to go. 456 00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 9: It was dark, and for any of your viewers have 457 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 9: been in a car accident or some construction accident, at first, 458 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,439 Speaker 9: you have no idea what's happening. And that's part of 459 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 9: trauma too, is that there's a sudden intrusion of something 460 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 9: that's completely unanticipated for which there's no frame of reference. 461 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 4: Prosecutors plan to seek the death penalty for the accused 462 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 4: Idaho Students murderer. 463 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 14: The question of where the Brian Coberger trial will commence 464 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 14: will be answered by the Idaho Supreme Court. Under Idaho 465 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 14: court rules, judges who grant motions to move trials can 466 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 14: indicate if they want to remain on the case. Judge 467 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 14: John Judge did not do so in his order, instead 468 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 14: granting the motion under a rule that provides for a 469 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 14: new judge to be assigned. It is not clear when 470 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 14: the Idaho Supreme Court will assign a new venue or 471 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 14: a new judge, and the question of whether these changes 472 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 14: will force a delay in the trial date is unclear. 473 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 2: And again Oscar Wilde said of the best to. 474 00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 3: Be careful what you ask, my dear for you will 475 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 3: surely get it. 476 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: So they get a new venue. 477 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:47,919 Speaker 1: Fine. 478 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 3: I would have been surprised if that had not been 479 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,200 Speaker 3: granted in the case of this magnitude and of this publicity. 480 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 2: But that also means. 481 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:56,480 Speaker 1: A new judge. 482 00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 2: And I got to tell you there were judges I 483 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 2: would actually. 484 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 3: When I would find out my case was assigned to 485 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 3: that judge, they would be extremely defense oriented. Possibly you know, 486 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 3: the judge had been a public defender their whole life 487 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 3: and then got appointed to the bench and just really 488 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:18,120 Speaker 3: hated the state. Not me, not anybody, not a witness 489 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: on my side, just had a bias. 490 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 2: Against the state, and I would hate it. 491 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,199 Speaker 3: Or you'd have a rude judge, a horrible judge, a 492 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 3: hateful judge. 493 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,640 Speaker 1: They're on the bench too. 494 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 2: So you might have. 495 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,120 Speaker 3: Let me just say I had one judge so smart, 496 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 3: I will not reveal his name, and he would sit 497 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 3: back in his chambers with his law clerk and they 498 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: would drink tea imported from Great Britain with China, you know, 499 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 3: the very delicate china. We'd all be in the courtroom 500 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 3: waiting and the judge would be drinking tea, talking about 501 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to go out there. 502 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,640 Speaker 2: It's just not fun anymore. 503 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: Fun, my rear end. 504 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: Get up on the bench and do your duty. 505 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: Yes, So it's like have you ever been at the 506 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: fair and you pay ten cents for the grab bag 507 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: and you poke your hand and you pull something out. 508 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: That's what you're getting. It's also called a pig and 509 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 2: a poke. 510 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 3: You know, you don't know what you're getting out of 511 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 3: that bag, and you might just get a pig, which 512 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 3: is something you may not want. 513 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 2: So they're getting the change of venue. But who will the. 514 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 3: Judge be straight out to? Chris mcdona. He's been in 515 00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 3: front of plenty of judges. He's now the star of 516 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 3: the interview room on YouTube and you can find him 517 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 3: at Coldcasefoundation dot org. 518 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: And he's got all these accolades for a reason. 519 00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 3: Former homicide investigator and handled around three hundred homicide scenes. 520 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,320 Speaker 3: Chris mcdona, the judge can make all the difference. I've 521 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 3: had a but chewing by so many judges, held and contempt, 522 00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 3: you name it. 523 00:29:58,040 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: You don't want that judge. 524 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 10: You definitely don't want that judge for sure, Nancy. And 525 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 10: you know the family doesn't want that judge either. And 526 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 10: in this situation, what I think one of the things 527 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 10: that we have to take a look at is the 528 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 10: frustration that the family has because the judge now has 529 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 10: recreused himself and said, hey, you know what, because of 530 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 10: these other reasons, I'm going to pull out of this 531 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 10: as well and give you somebody else. Well, that's a 532 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 10: big win for the defense. In my opinion. You know, 533 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,960 Speaker 10: I've been in that circumstance where you know, you think 534 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 10: everything's going well and next thing, you know what you 535 00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 10: are in front of this new guy. And what was 536 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 10: interesting his ruling. On page sixteen of his ruling, he 537 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 10: said a reasonable likelihood that the prejudicial news coverage will 538 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 10: compromise a fair trial. 539 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 3: The judge referred to international news coverage. Now, I don't 540 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 3: know how moving to Ada County is going to escape 541 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 3: international news coverage. 542 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 2: But fine, I'd be mad if you didn't go ahead. 543 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 10: Yeah, and then he brings into the logistics arguments, right, well, 544 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,959 Speaker 10: I have to think how long has he been thinking 545 00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 10: about this, that there aren't enough deputies, there aren't enough clerks, 546 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:15,600 Speaker 10: the jurors could be tainted. 547 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: Has it been over a year? 548 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 10: And if so, why didn't he pull the trigger earlier? 549 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 10: That's one of the things that I have to question, 550 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 10: you know, this judge about this ruling for that reason wrong. 551 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 4: If the judge grants a change of venue, will Brian 552 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 4: Cooberger face a more conservative jury? How would travel to 553 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,880 Speaker 4: a new location affect proceedings? 554 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 3: Well, there have been a lot of high profile venue changes. 555 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 2: Let me give you a few. I came up with 556 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:50,760 Speaker 2: last night. 557 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 3: Well, Simpson of course got moved, and that resulted in 558 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,320 Speaker 3: a not guilty. That Rodney King case moved. Timothy McVeigh 559 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 3: didn't make a difference. 560 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 2: Oh gosh. 561 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 3: I was just looking at colleges with the twins in DC, 562 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 3: and I was telling them about the Beltway snipers, remember them, 563 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 3: the Sharpshooters, Lee Boyd Malvo and John Alan Mohammad, And 564 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,760 Speaker 3: how I would fly to d C to do the 565 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 3: Larry King show two or three times a week and 566 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 3: people would be afraid to even leave the parking lot, 567 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 3: leave the airport to go to their cars. Everyone was 568 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: in so much fear of the snipers, the DC snipers. 569 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 3: Then of course there's Scott Peterson. Don't want to leave 570 00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,479 Speaker 3: him out of any murder discussion. His eventy was changed 571 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 3: to Redwood City. Lacy was killed, we believe in Modesto. 572 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 3: Oh there he is there, he is great shot. And 573 00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 3: it got moved to Redwood City. I know it very 574 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,640 Speaker 3: well because I lived there for about four months during 575 00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 3: the trial. Then there is Fred toe Cars. May he 576 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 3: write in hell he. 577 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 2: Murdered his wife. 578 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 3: And his two children in the backs seat, one of 579 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 3: them said, mommy's head blew up like a pumpkin. His 580 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 3: case was actually moved from Atlanta to Birmingham, a different. 581 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 2: State because it's a federal case. 582 00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 3: It's not true here, It's going to be moved somewhere 583 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: in Idaho. 584 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: Then you've got John Wayne Gacy. Now that had a 585 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:18,920 Speaker 2: different twist. 586 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: Gasey's trial was not moved, but the jury was moved. 587 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,480 Speaker 3: They brought in jurors from another jurisdiction. Then there's Justin 588 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 3: Ross Harris. Okay, he just got reversed. He left his child, 589 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 3: baby Cooper, in the car and Cooper died while he 590 00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 3: was sexting underage teens about sex. 591 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: His case was moved. 592 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 3: From Cobb County and metro Atlanta to Savannah. As I 593 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 3: recall on the coast Kristin Smart, that case was moved, 594 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 3: And of course we always bring up Lorie Vallow. Her 595 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 3: case was moved to Ada County near Boise. Long story short, 596 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 3: long story short. She didn't get the death penalty for 597 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:08,640 Speaker 3: other reasons. Her prophet husband did after his case was moved. 598 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:09,879 Speaker 2: So there is a. 599 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 3: Long and rich history of changing venues and very often 600 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 3: it has no effect on the outcome of the case. 601 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 3: But I contrary to what a lot of people are 602 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 3: saying support judge, judge, because in the end, if there 603 00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 3: is a conviction, God willing, there will be a true verdict. 604 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,560 Speaker 3: This is one last grounds of appeal. I want to 605 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 3: talk about something we observed in court. No matter what 606 00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 3: the topic is, Coburger remains with a flat affect. 607 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:46,479 Speaker 6: Listen years before he allegedly murdered for college students, Brian 608 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,720 Speaker 6: Koeberger talks of having no real feelings, that he feels 609 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,840 Speaker 6: nothing when he looks at his own family, going so 610 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 6: far as to say, quote, as I hug my family, 611 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,319 Speaker 6: I look into their faces, I see nothing. It is 612 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 6: like I am looking at a video game. But less 613 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 6: from any teenager, that would be a sad, scary comment, 614 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 6: but coming from Coburger at age sixteen, from someone suspected 615 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 6: of multiple homicides just ten years later, maybe it's a warning. 616 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 2: As I hug my family, I'll look into their faces. 617 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 2: I see nothing. It's like I'm looking at a video game. 618 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 2: But less. Of course, I'm going to go to doctor Bethny. 619 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: Marshall, but first to Howard Bloom, author. 620 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,760 Speaker 3: Of As of Right Now, The definitive book on Brian 621 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 3: Coberger is called When the Night Comes Falling a requiem 622 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 3: for the Idaho student murders. And I've got to tell you, 623 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 3: I read every word and you had so much evidence 624 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 3: and so many facts that many people, including myself, didn't know, 625 00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 3: and it was really illuminating, Howard, very illuminating. I want 626 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,399 Speaker 3: to talk to you about this flat ethic we've see. 627 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 3: No matter what's happening in court, I'm wondering if they're 628 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 3: going to try to school him as to how to 629 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 3: act in front a jury like he has feelings. What 630 00:35:57,920 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 3: do you make of it? 631 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,840 Speaker 7: Well, first of all, all the facts, all the change 632 00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 7: of venue, lead back to one thing is alibi. And 633 00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 7: the alibi is so thin, so specious that he was 634 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 7: asto stargazing at four am in the park where no 635 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 7: one could see him on a cloudy night. That's the 636 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 7: best they could come up with. So, as you say, 637 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 7: changing the. 638 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 1: Venue affect affect, hold on. 639 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 3: You know what my old co anchor, Johnny Cochrane, God 640 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 3: rest his soul. He had Simpson oj Simpson acting engaged 641 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,359 Speaker 3: in court, and when he couldn't act engaged, he had 642 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 3: him do to like he was taking legal notes. This 643 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,319 Speaker 3: is what he was writing. I'm pretty sure, but I 644 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 3: can't prove that. Since Cochrane has gone on to the 645 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 3: Great Beyond and Simpson's dead, I know where he is hell. 646 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 3: But my point is I'm trying to get to his affect, 647 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 3: Howard Bloom his ethic, it never changes. I mean, did 648 00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 3: you see the video of him when he got pulled 649 00:36:59,360 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 3: over by a cop. 650 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: Let's see it. 651 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 2: Go ahead, Howard. 652 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 7: Well, he stares straight ahead. He almost looks he's totally detached. 653 00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,440 Speaker 7: What he has done is change his wardrobe. He had 654 00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:11,399 Speaker 7: palmades his hair now for cord. For the last court 655 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 7: hearing was the first time he didn't wear a tie 656 00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,080 Speaker 7: open next shirt, but usually he wears a suit and 657 00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 7: a tie. He looks very proper and then stares straight ahead. 658 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 7: When Ann Taylor comes up to him on times, she 659 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,240 Speaker 7: puts her arm around him maternally even and he does 660 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 7: not budge. He seems as if. 661 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 1: He's already been droked. 662 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 7: Who knows his state seems very controlled, almost catatonic. 663 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 3: He's not drugged, Howard. That's his athet. Doc to Bethany Marshall. 664 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:44,720 Speaker 2: Look, I don't know if you can see this video, 665 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,720 Speaker 2: but he shows no emotion. 666 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 3: In fact, he's basically schooling this lady traffic officer on 667 00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 3: what she did wrong. 668 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: Hello, Okay, Nancy. 669 00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 9: He has what I call dead eyes, and sociopaths do. 670 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:02,439 Speaker 9: It's like there is nothing there. Flat affect is one 671 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 9: of the twenty features of psychopathy that is one of 672 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:08,439 Speaker 9: the signs when you do a full assessment. They don't 673 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 9: feel anything. They don't feel attachment, they don't feel love, 674 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 9: they don't feel joy. The only thing they can feel 675 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 9: is cruelty and the thrill of killing other people. So 676 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 9: power and sadism seem to be the only thing that 677 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:28,680 Speaker 9: they can feel. And they have something Nancy called alexithymia. 678 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 9: That means that they use the same words you and 679 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,719 Speaker 9: I would use, like oh I'm happy, Oh I was 680 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:38,520 Speaker 9: with my family, but the words don't have the depth 681 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 9: of meaning for them. And this is not like let's say, 682 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 9: someone who's traumatized, so they dissociate and they cut off 683 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 9: from their feelings. This is much more primary and biological. 684 00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:53,360 Speaker 9: This means he was born this way without affect or 685 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 9: internal experience. 686 00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 14: As a teen, Brian Koberger makes posts in a form 687 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,719 Speaker 14: website Tapa Tak talks about visual snow, a condition that 688 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,880 Speaker 14: causes one's vision to be obscured by floating dots, adding 689 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 14: he struggles with the constant thought of suicide. 690 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 15: Denette jene Elg reports to police she has a prowler. 691 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 15: Days later, her mutilated body is found on her punctured 692 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 15: water bed. Dennette suffers fifteen stab wounds, but did manage 693 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 15: to inflict injury on her attacker, Richard Albert Levitt. After 694 00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 15: killing Denette, Levitt removed her sexual organs, then goes to 695 00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,839 Speaker 15: the emergency room for his own wounds. Levitt's blood at 696 00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 15: the saint becomes part of the evidence that convicts Levitt, 697 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,480 Speaker 15: and he is sentenced to death. Levitt spends nearly thirty 698 00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:43,399 Speaker 15: years on death row before the sentence is carried out 699 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:44,440 Speaker 15: by lethal injection. 700 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 1: June twelfth, twenty twelve. 701 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 3: Change of venues don't always help killers. To Stephanie Pitcher, 702 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 3: joining u S high profile lawyer out of this jurisdiction 703 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 3: working with Parker and maconcle What do you make of it, Stephanie, 704 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:04,720 Speaker 3: I'm sure you've tried cases where the venue is changed, 705 00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 3: or in the alternative, you bust in your rs from 706 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 3: another jurisdiction. They have to stay sequestered in a hotel, 707 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:18,839 Speaker 3: but that way hundreds of personnel and witnesses don't have 708 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 3: to be busted to another jurisdiction, just the jurrrs. What 709 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:26,360 Speaker 3: is your experience on that and do you believe it 710 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 3: makes a difference. 711 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. 712 00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 8: I have tried cases where the venue has been changed, 713 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 8: and you know, by and large, I find that the 714 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 8: outcome is unchanged. The defense in this case gets the 715 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 8: benefit of having a larger pool of jurors, but the 716 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,479 Speaker 8: evidence doesn't change. The witnesses don't change. Certainly there's more 717 00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,440 Speaker 8: space at the courtroom to accommodate witnesses and media and 718 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 8: things like that. The bottom line is the evidence doesn't change. 719 00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:52,280 Speaker 2: That is the bottom line. 720 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,880 Speaker 3: I think the only way the evidence will be affected 721 00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,600 Speaker 3: that goes before the jury is because of the change 722 00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 3: of judge. 723 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,439 Speaker 2: What evidence the new judge. 724 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: Will allow in We wait for justice for the University. 725 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 2: Of Idaho victims. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend.