Speaker 1: Hey guys. Before we get into the episode, a quick note.
Speaker 1: We're looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly
Speaker 1: Betrayal series, which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal
Speaker 1: and feel ready to share your story, now is a
Speaker 1: great time to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just
Speaker 2: got up and started to walk away, and then as
Speaker 2: we were walking out of their house, she's fallen behind us,
Speaker 2: and then she says, I'm going to ruin.
Speaker 3: Your fucking lives.
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode four,
Speaker 1: Shock to the Conscience. In our last episode, we saw
Speaker 1: Joel Kern's double life, a side by side comparison of
Speaker 1: two different realities, but those two realities were on a
Speaker 1: collision course because Joel's reckoning day at the Colorado Springs
Speaker 1: Police Department was rapidly approaching. This was the day he'd
Speaker 1: be forced to answer for his lies, and this time
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be Caroline who was left in disbelief. It
Speaker 1: would be Joel's coworkers, officers he'd worked closely with for
Speaker 1: over two decades men. He graduated from the police academy
Speaker 1: with men who'd been close friends and mentors. In March
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Joel was under investigation at the CSPD
Speaker 1: because a couple came in to file a complaint against him.
Speaker 1: The wife confessed to having sex with Joel in his
Speaker 1: police car. He was making amends for her actions, and
Speaker 1: part of that was alerting the department that one of
Speaker 1: their officers was up to no good. So the department
Speaker 1: launched an internal investigation and dug into the claims. Then
Speaker 1: they called Joel in for his official interview with internal Affairs.
Speaker 1: He was even able to bring an attorney. His future
Speaker 1: hinged on what happened in this meeting. We've got it
Speaker 1: all on tape and we want you to hear it.
Speaker 4: Good to see you again. It's been a while, okay, Joe,
Speaker 4: being in the form you've been up be here, so
Speaker 4: I'll let you read that.
Speaker 1: They start the interview by having Joel sign a garrity advisement.
Speaker 1: It's an acknowledgment that he's under investigation, it explains the process,
Speaker 1: and most importantly, it requires him to answer truthfully. After
Speaker 1: he signs this document. A lie could mean termination.
Speaker 4: Sir, Okay, we'll get started. It's Lieutenan ron Field Chancellor
Speaker 4: with the Coloria Springs Police Department Internal Affairs Section. Today's Monday,
Speaker 4: March twenty first, twenty twenty two. I'm an interviewing on
Speaker 4: Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to Internal Affairs case twenty two.
Speaker 4: That's zero two three. Also present are Lieutenant James Sokolick
Speaker 4: and Lieutenant Kern's attorney, Joan John Newson. Joel, I know
Speaker 4: you were a peer, so before going on the record
Speaker 4: where you provided a tight garrity advicetment, I was did
Speaker 4: you signed up voluntarily?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: Do you have any questions regarding the garrity advicement?
Speaker 3: No? Okay.
Speaker 4: Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this
Speaker 4: matter truthfully today?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 1: You may remember in episode two, Joel's boss, Commander Strawsner,
Speaker 1: reported a conversation he had with Joel where Joel denied
Speaker 1: knowing the couple and was worried that someone was impersonating
Speaker 1: him or filing a false complaint. Strawsner believed him.
Speaker 4: This is now under garrity. This is your opportunity to
Speaker 4: just let us know what happened. I don't want you
Speaker 4: to feel tied to whatever you said to Strustner. Anything
Speaker 4: that was said there is that good? Is that? Bear?
Speaker 3: I'll tell you exactly what I told you.
Speaker 4: Okay, tell us why do you think those allegations against
Speaker 4: you were brought forward?
Speaker 2: I don't know why specifically these allegations were made, but
Speaker 2: I have some ideas. I think maybe the the persons
Speaker 2: making allegations got in over their head or something, and
Speaker 2: I suspect that they're catfished me in whatever communication they
Speaker 2: were having.
Speaker 1: But before they got into that, Chancel wanted to focus
Speaker 1: on the incident at Joel's house the day a stranger
Speaker 1: showed up accusing Joel of having sex with his wife
Speaker 1: and his police cruisers.
Speaker 4: My wife out there, the one that you thought in
Speaker 4: your cruiser? What are you talking about that?
Speaker 1: Joel wasn't aware that the man had secretly recorded the
Speaker 1: entire encounter, and Joel didn't know that the man gave
Speaker 1: the recording to the CSPD. Chanza gave Joel an opportunity
Speaker 1: to recount what happened from his point of view, I
Speaker 1: was just.
Speaker 2: In shocked that someone was standing there saying this to me.
Speaker 2: So I said, I don't know who you are, but
Speaker 2: I'm not fucking your wife or anybody else's wife.
Speaker 3: And he.
Speaker 2: Looked at me again and then he said, well, I
Speaker 2: don't even really know if it's you, and if it's
Speaker 2: not you, I'm really sorry. And I took pause for
Speaker 2: a second because I'm like, you're coming to my house
Speaker 2: banging on my front door, and then you dropped this
Speaker 2: bomb on my household, and then you're going to say
Speaker 2: that you don't even know if it's me. So I said,
Speaker 2: you need to get the fuck off my property. I
Speaker 2: walked onto the sidewalks so I could look in the
Speaker 2: car just to see who this is. And when I
Speaker 2: saw the person, I didn't recognize them at all. And
Speaker 2: then she gets out of the car and then like
Speaker 2: she's staring at me, and then she has these huge,
Speaker 2: huge sunglasses on, like so huge I couldn't even see
Speaker 2: her face really, but they weren't like total blackout, and
Speaker 2: I could see through the sunglasses that looked like she
Speaker 2: had like two black eyes, and she's crying.
Speaker 1: It seemed like Joel, in an effort to deflect the
Speaker 1: attention off of his own actions, was slightly suggesting this
Speaker 1: man was beating his wife.
Speaker 2: And then this guy slams the back of their car
Speaker 2: and says, is that him like screaming at her? And
Speaker 2: she startles and she starts to cry even more, and
Speaker 2: then she shakes her head yes, and then gets right
Speaker 2: back into the car. And then he said, well, the
Speaker 2: least that you can do is apologize for ruining my family.
Speaker 2: And then so I started walking away and I said,
Speaker 2: I have nothing to apologize for because I don't know you,
Speaker 2: I don't know your wife. I'm not fucking your wife.
Speaker 2: I'm not fucking anybody else. And then I just started
Speaker 2: to walk back in my house and then they drove
Speaker 2: away eventually.
Speaker 4: Okay, so you have never seen either one of them.
Speaker 4: No going back to catfishing. You made a comment about
Speaker 4: that at the beginning when we opened up. What does
Speaker 4: that have to do with them coming to your front door?
Speaker 2: And like two years ago there was a essentially like
Speaker 2: a breakup of friendships with like four different couples.
Speaker 1: It seemed like Joel had come prepared with a backstory.
Speaker 1: He says it all started at a dinner party that
Speaker 1: he and Caroline attended. It was with a group of
Speaker 1: couples an argument broke out. The couple hosting got into
Speaker 1: it with Caroline and Joel. The wife in particular was enraged,
Speaker 1: so she.
Speaker 2: Starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just got
Speaker 2: up and started to walk away, and then as we
Speaker 2: were walking out of their house, she's fallen behind us,
Speaker 2: and then she says, I'm going to ruin your fucking lives.
Speaker 1: The story was over the top ridiculous. Even then it
Speaker 1: got even stranger, Joel said. Another woman got pulled into
Speaker 1: the conflict, and the two women teamed up to take
Speaker 1: down the Kerns.
Speaker 2: There was another couple who was friends with this lady
Speaker 2: that said that she's gonna fucking.
Speaker 3: Ruin my life or ruin our lives.
Speaker 2: And she, when we were all friends, used to brag
Speaker 2: about how she would make fake social media accounts and
Speaker 2: then converse with people using the fake account. Her idea
Speaker 2: of fun was to impersonate a friend of a person
Speaker 2: that they already have on Facebook, and then she would
Speaker 2: start conversing with him on the instant messaging.
Speaker 1: Chanza asked more questions about the women Joel believed targeted
Speaker 1: his family, but eventually they got to the heart of
Speaker 1: the matter.
Speaker 4: Have you ever had any kind of sexual contact insite
Speaker 4: your city, a scign take on vehicle?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: Have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone while
Speaker 4: on duty? No? Okay, so the allegations that are being
Speaker 4: brought against you are absolutely not true.
Speaker 5: No.
Speaker 1: Chanza then showed Joel a photograph of a woman. It
Speaker 1: was not the woman who filed the complaint, it was
Speaker 1: someone else.
Speaker 4: Have you ever met this lady?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 4: No. Have you ever uploaded WhatsApp on your work cell
Speaker 4: phone number?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 4: Obviously you're aware we took your phone, and, as you
Speaker 4: may imagine, we dumped your laptop. What if I were
Speaker 4: to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing
Speaker 4: them to go to WhatsApp?
Speaker 6: With that, refresher memory?
Speaker 1: Lieutenant Chanza began to lay out the evidence they collected. Immediately,
Speaker 1: Joel's tone shifted, so did his story. These guys worked
Speaker 1: with Joel for years. This was the last situation they
Speaker 1: wanted to be in.
Speaker 4: Obviously, you're aware we took your phone, and, as you
Speaker 4: may imagine, we dumped your flaptop. What if I were
Speaker 4: to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing
Speaker 4: them to go to WhatsApp?
Speaker 6: With that, refresh your memory?
Speaker 7: Now?
Speaker 3: I don't remember in what context you said that her names?
Speaker 4: What would to help you if batold you she has
Speaker 4: a Denver number?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I met her at a brew function. I'm sorry
Speaker 2: to what a brewery function like a beer function?
Speaker 4: Can you describe that?
Speaker 3: FORCE just met her.
Speaker 2: Through there and then we started talking and then share
Speaker 2: common interests and became friends. But I just know her
Speaker 2: as her first name. I don't know her last name
Speaker 2: or anything like that.
Speaker 3: Well, you recognize the pictures, right, Yeah? Now I do? Yep, Julie.
Speaker 4: You know how that's looking?
Speaker 3: Right? Is this the person making allegations? We'll get to.
Speaker 4: That, But I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility veracity,
Speaker 4: I'm showing you a picture, I'm giving you a chance
Speaker 4: to take a look at it, and you're telling me
Speaker 4: to my face that you don't recognize them.
Speaker 3: Well, I was mistaken. I apologize for that.
Speaker 2: I recognized her because I just met her at the
Speaker 2: prow functions.
Speaker 3: But that's it.
Speaker 1: The woman in the photo was the same woman we
Speaker 1: heard from in an earlier episode. We're not using her
Speaker 1: name here. She was the one Joel had sex with
Speaker 1: in the parking lot of a sporting good store. The
Speaker 1: one Joel was texting when he said, there's been some
Speaker 1: drama and I deleted everything. The CSPD had copies of
Speaker 1: their messages.
Speaker 4: You don't have any kind of leather relationship with her? No.
Speaker 4: Have you communicated with her through WhatsApp?
Speaker 2: Yes, just as friends talking through that about different things,
Speaker 2: but that's it.
Speaker 8: Do you have a romantic relationship with her, Joel.
Speaker 3: I do not. Would she say differently, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I don't have a romantic relationship with her.
Speaker 8: You've been intimate with her?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 9: When I say intimate, I'll be very brontu belueal. So
Speaker 9: we don't have any to have you even the physically
Speaker 9: intimate or had sex with her.
Speaker 1: Before Joel could say anything, so Glik decided to lay
Speaker 1: it all out there. He was done with Joel's denial.
Speaker 9: Before you answer that could of pausing I want to say,
Speaker 9: is I want to make sure it's very clear that
Speaker 9: the internal affairs detectives are in Denver right now to
Speaker 9: contact or during this meeting.
Speaker 8: So this should be a really easy question, Joel.
Speaker 4: We're another hear to tricky Joe. This is whe're trying
Speaker 4: to get to the bottom of this. I mean, do
Speaker 4: you know both of us.
Speaker 9: So I think let me stop things for a second here. Okay,
Speaker 9: I really want to clear I know you're talking about
Speaker 9: catfish all this. That is not the allegation. The allegation,
Speaker 9: you very clear is you had sex with this person,
Speaker 9: not that she talked to you about having sex. That
Speaker 9: you have had sex with this person in your department vehicle.
Speaker 9: That's not a catfishing situation. It's a very serious allegation.
Speaker 9: And it's not like a misunderstanding. I'm talking to the
Speaker 9: wrong person online. This person's identifying that they had sex
Speaker 9: with you, Joel Kern in your department car, and I'll
Speaker 9: be honest that it doesn't sound as you being a
Speaker 9: one hundred percent honest to your Joel. So we're asking
Speaker 9: again real quick understanding. The detectors are out there to
Speaker 9: talking to her right now. Have you in physically intimate
Speaker 9: with this individual?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 8: Did you have sex with them?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 8: Did that occur inside the department vehicle?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 8: Did it occur on duty?
Speaker 3: No? I mean I guess it could have.
Speaker 8: Are you familiar with fat Life.
Speaker 1: I've heard of it, but yeah, bet life is a
Speaker 1: cank and fetish social networking website.
Speaker 8: Did you meet her through fat Life.
Speaker 3: I can't remember if I did or not.
Speaker 8: You have a fat life account? Did you have a
Speaker 8: fat Life account?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 9: Okay, So in order to go through fat Life, you
Speaker 9: have to have an account in order to have those
Speaker 9: conversations back and forth or do dms of that kind
Speaker 9: of stuff. So how would you have met her potentially
Speaker 9: there if you do have an account of that life.
Speaker 2: I don't remember how I met her exactly. It's been
Speaker 2: a few years.
Speaker 4: So we're not gonna let's just give them this one.
Speaker 4: You just said I might have. So clearly you have
Speaker 4: been on fed life. Can we establish that.
Speaker 3: I looked at it.
Speaker 4: Yes, But and what Jimmy just said is that you
Speaker 4: cannot get on there without having an account. We've tested
Speaker 4: all this out.
Speaker 2: Hm, I deleted I had an account, and then I
Speaker 2: deleted it when I was trying to get my life
Speaker 2: back on track.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's a step in our direction. So you had
Speaker 4: an account, but you don't know if you've met her
Speaker 4: through that life.
Speaker 3: I think I think I did. Yeah, but it wasn't.
Speaker 3: You're painting it out to be.
Speaker 4: Passing judgment, Joe. I'll stop you there. We're not. We're
Speaker 4: giving you an opportunity.
Speaker 6: To talk to us.
Speaker 4: All we're trying to establish is that you violate policy,
Speaker 4: and if you did, obviously we have to be held accountable.
Speaker 4: Period I mean, that's it. We're not here to pass judgment.
Speaker 2: So there's periods in my marriage and home life that
Speaker 2: were bad and then you know, I met her and
Speaker 2: talked to her and then we just became fast friends.
Speaker 2: But to the question of violating policy and.
Speaker 4: All that, okay, but you said that possibly you met
Speaker 4: her while you were on duty. You were coming back
Speaker 4: from Denver when you went to this trip that you're
Speaker 4: thinking about where you're driving your take home vehicle.
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, So how does that happen?
Speaker 4: How do you meet her?
Speaker 6: You said you went to a brewery.
Speaker 2: It was coming back from a training and then she
Speaker 2: suggested that we meet, and then so we met on
Speaker 2: the way back, and then coming back, we just.
Speaker 3: Met at the I forget the name of the store.
Speaker 2: Is an outdoor store like around Lincoln and by twenty
Speaker 2: five okay.
Speaker 4: And then where do you guys go and have intimate relationships.
Speaker 2: Well, she came over into my car and then we
Speaker 2: just talked and everything, and then kissed.
Speaker 3: A part of the car front passenger.
Speaker 4: Seat, any other area of the car she might have been.
Speaker 4: And I'm sure you can probably guess where we're going
Speaker 4: with this. We obviously took the car, we had the
Speaker 4: lab search it and do what they do. Would there
Speaker 4: be any chance for her DNA to be in the
Speaker 4: back of that car?
Speaker 3: Oh, sure, she's in the car.
Speaker 4: Or so, Joel, is your name besides kiss?
Speaker 2: Well, this is all very embarrassing and humiliating, but yeah,
Speaker 2: we had sex.
Speaker 3: Whereabouts in the car, in the in the back only
Speaker 3: the one time.
Speaker 1: Okay, Joel admitted to certain details, but when and only
Speaker 1: then he realized they already knew it.
Speaker 4: So the picture that we're getting, Joel, is that there
Speaker 4: might be more than one person, And so we want
Speaker 4: you to think about it. Pause, if you need to
Speaker 4: take a break, if you need to use the restroom,
Speaker 4: get some water, and then we can talk about that
Speaker 4: when we get back.
Speaker 1: They took a break, and when they returned, Chanza and
Speaker 1: so Click continued their questioning, did.
Speaker 3: You have conversations during that light I don't know her name.
Speaker 2: Or who she is or anything like that, but yeah,
Speaker 2: I think you had conversations or I did have conversations
Speaker 2: with her flight did.
Speaker 8: You arrange per the download to what's appen so you
Speaker 8: guys can have conversations privately on your phone.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 9: Did you arrange to meet her at a oil park? Yes,
Speaker 9: then basically you had sex with her at a oil park.
Speaker 3: Didn't have sex, there's no penetration.
Speaker 8: So that was oral sexallently.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Juel is treading carefully here, because admitting to having sex
Speaker 1: in public is not only admitting to a violation of
Speaker 1: his duty, but a violation of the law.
Speaker 9: During this conversation, said when you arranged that, basically she
Speaker 9: is submissive and you were dominant. She says you struck
Speaker 9: her several times, leading bruises. I will say before in
Speaker 9: front of our two. She says this was a consensual accounter.
Speaker 9: She is not alleging a sexual assault.
Speaker 4: And remember you're within the confines of garrety.
Speaker 1: Remember the garrity advisement is a warning given to police
Speaker 1: officers during an internal investigation. The individual signing this advisement
Speaker 1: is declaring that they will tell the truth.
Speaker 9: This is not having to do anything to do with
Speaker 9: a criminal investigation. I'm just trying to lock in her statement.
Speaker 9: She said you left bruses, physically struck her, pull her hair,
Speaker 9: that type of thing. No, okay, So obviously at some
Speaker 9: point in time after this takes place, you break.
Speaker 8: Contact with her. Yes, yes, you have any further contact
Speaker 8: with her.
Speaker 2: Just here there afterwards, but nothing what is here and there?
Speaker 2: Mean just texting a little bit on the app, but
Speaker 2: no physical meetings at westoever.
Speaker 8: So when her husband showed up, you know what he
Speaker 8: was talking about?
Speaker 3: You know who I am?
Speaker 4: No, guess my wife felt there when that you're talking
Speaker 4: your cruiser. What are you talking about?
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but again I didn't have sex with her,
Speaker 2: as in you know, sexual intercourse or anything like that.
Speaker 2: So but yeah, I had an idea.
Speaker 8: Did you recognize her that day?
Speaker 3: Vaguely?
Speaker 4: Yes, So just to clarify the make sure that I'm
Speaker 4: showing you here, Joe ass the lady that was there
Speaker 4: that day in front of your house.
Speaker 3: Yes.
Speaker 1: Then the investigators turned to an important element in this case.
Speaker 1: They have a selfie. Joel sent to this woman, a
Speaker 1: photo where he's wearing his police uniform. You can clearly
Speaker 1: see his badge on his chest, and the investigators needed
Speaker 1: to know why. What was Joel's intention?
Speaker 4: You sent a picture of yourself to the complainant in
Speaker 4: this case, the person that you met at Memorial Park. Yes, okay,
Speaker 4: four you in uniform, can't remember? Did you identify yourself
Speaker 4: as a police officer to this person?
Speaker 3: And after some time after we were talking to me, is.
Speaker 4: Why did you do that?
Speaker 3: Because she said that she works in law.
Speaker 2: And the intent was a developing friendships and all that
Speaker 2: and having friendships. So it's just more of like a
Speaker 2: getting to know.
Speaker 4: The information we received is that she was nervous. Is
Speaker 4: that why you sent a picture of yourself or is
Speaker 4: that why you identified yourself as a police officer to
Speaker 4: now make her feel more comfortable?
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not, But you.
Speaker 4: Did identify yourself as a police officer.
Speaker 3: Yes, So so we start our list.
Speaker 8: Why didn't you see what happened?
Speaker 2: Because it's humiliating, it's embarrassing, it's traumatic, and you know,
Speaker 2: all the demons from my past come to rise. And
Speaker 2: I was at a low point definitely in my marriage
Speaker 2: and in my life and.
Speaker 3: Trying to save face, trying to not get fired.
Speaker 2: And I think maybe I priy for help.
Speaker 9: There's anything you want to make sure that the person
Speaker 9: who means this gets here directly from you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think I'm salvageable I acknowledge that
Speaker 2: that I needed help for a long time, and I
Speaker 2: just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading
Speaker 2: this and promise that you know, I want to do better,
Speaker 2: and I think I need help, and I think it
Speaker 2: would be nice for the department to help me get there.
Speaker 2: We pay a lot of lip service about our employees
Speaker 2: as our family and all that, but I like to
Speaker 2: maybe somehow believe in that and recognize that I've had issues,
Speaker 2: and I've had issues for a long long time, and
Speaker 2: every day is a struggle, and I want help.
Speaker 4: And closing this investigation is ongoing. In order to maintain
Speaker 4: the confidentiality of this case, I'm giving you a direct
Speaker 4: order not to discuss this case or this interview with
Speaker 4: anyone other than Internal Affairs or anyone from whom the
Speaker 4: discussion would be legally protected and confidential under Colorado's statute.
Speaker 4: Do you understand this order?
Speaker 3: I do, okay.
Speaker 4: This will conclude the interview. The time now is thirteen
Speaker 4: forty four hours.
Speaker 1: Caroline and I listened to the Internal Affairs interview together.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what she thought of Joel's performance.
Speaker 1: Finally she could hear what was really going on with
Speaker 1: Joel while she was still in the dark. Caroline remembers
Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing the week of Joel's interview
Speaker 1: because she was on vacation with her daughter. They decided
Speaker 1: to take a trip to Vegas together and soak up
Speaker 1: the desert sun. Joel hung back, saying he was busy
Speaker 1: with work all the while he knew he'd been caught.
Speaker 1: He was just waiting to find out how bad the
Speaker 1: consequences would be.
Speaker 7: And he picked us up at the airport with our
Speaker 7: dogs in the card, gets out of the car, kisses me,
Speaker 7: hugs her.
Speaker 10: Missed you, guys, Oh, we missed you.
Speaker 7: We're catching up. We're talking about the food, we ate
Speaker 7: and we're filling him in.
Speaker 10: How was work?
Speaker 7: Oh, my gosh, so busy this week. I have replayed
Speaker 7: that over and over and over and over again to Caroline.
Speaker 1: Her husband seemed completely normal.
Speaker 7: Meanwhile, he has just revealed what is going to be
Speaker 7: the detriment to our family.
Speaker 10: Wow.
Speaker 1: I mean he signs the garrity, which is basically saying
Speaker 1: that he's promising to tell the truth, and from the
Speaker 1: very beginning from question one, he is lying. Do you
Speaker 1: feel like he thought that he could talk his way
Speaker 1: out of it.
Speaker 7: I don't think he just thought he could talk his
Speaker 7: way out of it. I think that he truly and
Speaker 7: his gut believed he would get away with it. He
Speaker 7: not only thought that he could have his attorney believe him,
Speaker 7: but Joel believed that he would be able to have
Speaker 7: Raphael and Jimmy believe him as well.
Speaker 1: And those are the two internal affairs investigators we heard
Speaker 1: questioning him, Raphael Chans and Jimmy Soklick. These are two
Speaker 1: people who both knew you guys personally.
Speaker 7: Yes. The part that disturbs me so much on this
Speaker 7: is not just that he lied, but the level of
Speaker 7: personal connection and whom he lied to. They were promoted
Speaker 7: on the same day together as lieutenants. We were at
Speaker 7: Jimmy Sokolick's wedding. Wow, these were people who had been
Speaker 7: at personal events and our lives. He's lying to them,
Speaker 7: and not only just lying to them as professionals, colleagues
Speaker 7: and friends, but he is lying about the dynamic of
Speaker 7: our home. There was not this unhealthy, horrible life at home.
Speaker 7: And yet this is what he reverts back to time
Speaker 7: and time and time again on the times where he
Speaker 7: has gotten caught.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, he refers to your
Speaker 1: marriage being in a bad place. And this isn't the
Speaker 1: first IA investigation where he cites this experience. You don't
Speaker 1: look back at that time feeling like your marriage was
Speaker 1: in a bad place. I do not do you even
Speaker 1: recognize the person on that tape.
Speaker 7: So when I hear the investigation, I see the stranger
Speaker 7: who I lived with. I do not know that man.
Speaker 7: That man who is on that tape is evil. I
Speaker 7: don't know anything about him. He just didn't think he
Speaker 7: would get to that point. That's why he started with
Speaker 7: the line denying, deflecting, and shifting any of the responsibility.
Speaker 7: And then when he had to fall on his sword,
Speaker 7: magically it became all this was going sideways at home.
Speaker 7: I have demons, I need help. Yeah, it turned into
Speaker 7: a different deflection.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: He would make comments about quote slaying his demons, and
Speaker 7: then he would talk about I just need to get
Speaker 7: back to the man I was.
Speaker 10: I could be the husband I was, I could be
Speaker 10: the dad I was. But the fact of the matter is.
Speaker 1: What were you? Yah? Who were you ever?
Speaker 7: That's a question that the kids and I have grappled with.
Speaker 7: Those are the moments where I question things but I
Speaker 7: have to remind myself the kids and I were living
Speaker 7: the truth. He loving the lie.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, How long is it taking you to get
Speaker 1: to that place to be able to say that I.
Speaker 10: Do it daily? I still have to do it daily,
Speaker 10: all right.
Speaker 5: So just to go on the record, today's ago.
Speaker 1: About a month after Joel's Internal Affairs interview judgment day
Speaker 1: finally came, Joel had to face his boss, Commander Strassner,
Speaker 1: who had believed in him, thought the best of him.
Speaker 1: You've heard the date several times now, April eleventh, twenty two,
Speaker 1: and Strawsner got right to it.
Speaker 3: I want believer the point here this is not.
Speaker 5: Did not expect to have to do this with you, Joey,
Speaker 5: Really you never expected this would have to be the case.
Speaker 5: Did you get the agenda for the meeting?
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, yes, sir. Okay.
Speaker 1: Strassner began by laying up the facts of the case.
Speaker 5: About four thirty to five pm, you informed me that
Speaker 5: you knew you were under investigation. When I asked how
Speaker 5: you knew that, you proceeded doing tell me about the
Speaker 5: confrontation that occurred on February fifth, professing your innocence and
Speaker 5: adamantly denying any involvement in the situation. I had no
Speaker 5: reason not to believe your innocence in this case, which
Speaker 5: meant that either the couple was lying and needed to
Speaker 5: be criminally charged, or that another cop was impersonating you
Speaker 5: and needed to be fired, and that we would make
Speaker 5: sure the case was thoroughly investigated. After being advised and
Speaker 5: signing the garrity warning, which included in order to answer
Speaker 5: questions truthfully, you knowingly lied, providing false information to the
Speaker 5: investigators from nearly forty to forty five minutes. You initially
Speaker 5: attempted to blame someone you know as for causing you
Speaker 5: and your wife's problems and somehow causing this complaint by
Speaker 5: catfishing you online. You initially denied ever having an account
Speaker 5: on fet life and denied knowing either. Only after being
Speaker 5: confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit to
Speaker 5: having sex with While admitting to having sex with her,
Speaker 5: you initially denied the encounter occurred in your police car.
Speaker 5: You later confessed you might have met her on fet life,
Speaker 5: and then did admit the sexual encounter did occur in
Speaker 5: your police vehicle. After taking a break in the interview,
Speaker 5: you returned finally you admit that you arranged a meeting
Speaker 5: and memorial park with you stated you did not have
Speaker 5: sex with her because there was no penetration, and quite frankly,
Speaker 5: I think this is QUI over the details. Because she
Speaker 5: did perform oral sex on you in the back of
Speaker 5: the suv. There are discrepancies in the rest of the
Speaker 5: interview between what can you describe as having occurred in
Speaker 5: the back of the suv. Quite frankly, those details are
Speaker 5: irrelevant to proving the overall case. However, given the false
Speaker 5: statements you've provided to Internal Affairs, I have no reason
Speaker 5: to discount any of her recollection of these events. That's
Speaker 5: my overall case summary.
Speaker 3: Lieutenant.
Speaker 5: Do you have any comments that you want to make.
Speaker 2: I'm extremely remorseful, I'm extremely ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed, upset. I'm
Speaker 2: begging for mercy. I literally was not in my right mind,
Speaker 2: and I've been going through a hard time for several
Speaker 2: years and I can promise you that.
Speaker 3: Nothing like that, whatever ever, happen again.
Speaker 2: I initially light in the eye interview because I was humiliated, embarrassed, scared.
Speaker 3: Didn't I want to.
Speaker 2: How this come to fruition and lose everything.
Speaker 8: That I have.
Speaker 2: I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness. I promise
Speaker 2: you that none of this will ever happen again. I
Speaker 2: understand that I've shattered your trust and it's something that
Speaker 2: I want to work hard to get back. I apologize
Speaker 2: for any of this happening. The last three months have
Speaker 2: been hell, and I just am begging for your mercy.
Speaker 5: I'm gonna move to the next section here and just
Speaker 5: talking about my comments and insight regarding this case. This
Speaker 5: case is not about the sex or how you meant
Speaker 5: these women. Honestly, I don't really care what your preferences
Speaker 5: are unless the PD is somehow brought into this situation.
Speaker 5: Has occurred in this case when you sent essentially these
Speaker 5: strangers a photograph of yourself in police uniform and used
Speaker 5: your work vehicle for your activities. That's what made this
Speaker 5: police issue. The week the allegation was filed, you didn't
Speaker 5: need to say anything to me about the case, and
Speaker 5: quite honestly, I wish you'd not said.
Speaker 3: Anything to me at all. You literally lied.
Speaker 5: To my face on that Wednesday afternoon proclaiming your innocence,
Speaker 5: and unless than twenty minutes later was texting with to
Speaker 5: tell her there was drama, and that you deleted everything.
Speaker 5: Even on Friday, when I tried to reassure you that
Speaker 5: I had no reason not to believe you and would
Speaker 5: make sure that this case was the investigated, you didn't
Speaker 5: flinch even when I threatened to criminally charge this couple
Speaker 5: or maybe fire another employee, and you later thanked me
Speaker 5: for believing in you. To me, this is the most
Speaker 5: disturbing piece of the entire case. Even in your interview
Speaker 5: with IA, as a former investigator yourself, you lied to
Speaker 5: Jimmy and rolf A, all trying to pin this on
Speaker 5: a third person named You had five and a half
Speaker 5: weeks to think about your interview and decided to stick
Speaker 5: with your story and deny that any of this occurred.
Speaker 5: The fact that you lied, the fact that you were
Speaker 5: willing to put this on a third person or possibly
Speaker 5: even have charges filed against the complainant, is absolutely horrific
Speaker 5: and constitutes a violation of your oath in office. I
Speaker 5: also cannot ignore the previous history from the twenty nineteen case.
Speaker 1: Strawsner is referring to the case when a reporter contacted
Speaker 1: the CSPD because Joel was for the public information officer job.
Speaker 1: The reporter alleged that Joel had sexually harassed her and
Speaker 1: other reporters.
Speaker 5: Twenty nineteen, Commander Mandel wrote, in regard to that incident,
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Kern is a valuable member of the departments, committed
Speaker 5: to putting this behind him and being a better person
Speaker 5: and leader for the organization. I have full confidence that
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Kern has learned from his mistakes and he will
Speaker 5: not place himself or the department in this position again.
Speaker 5: I'm hearing some of the same things that were said
Speaker 5: last time.
Speaker 1: In that case, Strassner is right back in twenty nineteen,
Speaker 1: Joel had used some of the exact same language. Here's
Speaker 1: Joel in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 11: I'm mis shaped, and I'm embarrassed, and I'm hamiliated, and
Speaker 11: again I take four responsibility for my actions and yes,
Speaker 11: for mercy.
Speaker 5: Not only did you put yourself in that same position,
Speaker 5: you made it worse. Someone might make that argument that
Speaker 5: you were initially evasive in the ie interview, but that
Speaker 5: you rectified it later by telling the truth. I want
Speaker 5: to be clear that I do not believe you fully
Speaker 5: redeemed your credibility or you were completely transparent even near
Speaker 5: the end of your interview. You were specifically asked by
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Socolick whether you deleted the WhatsApp, to which you
Speaker 5: told them yes. Later, Lieutenant Chansa asked you do you
Speaker 5: still use WhatsApp currently, and you replied, just to talk
Speaker 5: to I believe the slip up proves you're still not
Speaker 5: being completely honest with investigators, that you're unable to keep
Speaker 5: track of all your lives, and quite frankly, I question
Speaker 5: how many other women are out there that may bring
Speaker 5: forward allegations in the future. Now, before I present my findings,
Speaker 5: I want to address something you stated during your interview
Speaker 5: with Lieutenant chans And Sokolick said that you believe you
Speaker 5: need help and it would be nice for the department
Speaker 5: to help you get there, And you said, quote, we
Speaker 5: pay a lot of lip service about our employees as family,
Speaker 5: and I'd like to maybe somehow believe in that and
Speaker 5: recognize I've had issues. I want to point out a
Speaker 5: couple of things. In twenty nineteen, you receive nothing more
Speaker 5: than a written reprimand at a time when you might
Speaker 5: have been able to get more, and you said you
Speaker 5: were already seeking the help. I believe this department has
Speaker 5: treated you more than fair regarding these previous indiscretions.
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that they weren't.
Speaker 5: I'm about to go into the findings of the policies.
Speaker 5: Did you have anything you wanted to add?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I know that the department has been good
Speaker 2: to me. I am sorry that I that this kind
Speaker 2: of stuff happened a second time, but I swear that
Speaker 2: there is nobody else. I'm willing to do whatever it
Speaker 2: takes to hold on to my employment, and two to
Speaker 2: show that I can do better. And I apologize from
Speaker 2: the bottom of my heart. I understand that it looks
Speaker 2: bad the way everything's been discussed here, and again, I'm
Speaker 2: begging for your mercy.
Speaker 1: Strassner was unmoved.
Speaker 5: Okay, let's go through each of the policies. So as
Speaker 5: I go through these, remember the standard as a preponderance
Speaker 5: of the evidence. First one is nine oh six point
Speaker 5: three zero. It's the take home Vehicles policy. By a
Speaker 5: preponderance of the evidence, your take home vehicle was inappropriately used.
Speaker 5: This allegation is sustained four hundred point three zero.
Speaker 1: Another big one, conduct unbecoming of a police officer.
Speaker 5: What's reasonable believe that using photographs of yourself an official
Speaker 5: police uniform to gain the trust of women you have
Speaker 5: met on fees life and then having sex with them
Speaker 5: in an official police vehicle has brought disrepute to the
Speaker 5: police department. Further, your false statements to me at the
Speaker 5: onset were unsolicited and used to paint yourself in the
Speaker 5: most favorable light regarding this investigation. This allegation is sustained.
Speaker 1: Then Strawsner reached the most egregious of Joel's violations, and
Speaker 1: the final.
Speaker 5: Allegation is four hundred point one to three employee conduct
Speaker 5: departing from the truth. Employees will not willfully or knowingly
Speaker 5: depart from the truth and giving testimony or in connection
Speaker 5: with official duties. You were given a garrity advisement and
Speaker 5: sign that invisement, knowing you were being ordered to tell
Speaker 5: the truth by a preponderance of the evidence, you gave
Speaker 5: a false statement for the first approximate forty minutes of
Speaker 5: the interview. Only when confronted with evidence did you finally
Speaker 5: begin to confess some of your role in this case. Yet,
Speaker 5: as I said, I still am not sure that you've
Speaker 5: told the whole truth. This is sustained as well. This
Speaker 5: whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience.
Speaker 5: It really has, and honestly, I think we've been painted
Speaker 5: into a corner where there's really only one outcome. In
Speaker 5: this case, I can recommend. I have no option but
Speaker 5: to recommend your termination.
Speaker 1: Caroline. It feels like, maybe for the first time, someone
Speaker 1: with authority sees through Joel's facade. What went through your
Speaker 1: mind when you heard Joel's boss in front him.
Speaker 7: I think it's fascinating to listen to when Strasner says,
Speaker 7: and I believe there's more, there's more women. I question
Speaker 7: how many other women will come forward? And then hearing
Speaker 7: Joel say I swear these were the only two. I
Speaker 7: swear these were the only two. And next thing you know,
Speaker 7: it's all kinds of different names are being revealed, and
Speaker 7: all of these sexual encounters and sexually illicit behavior while
Speaker 7: he's under the guise of a police officer.
Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to Strawsner?
Speaker 5: I did.
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about that?
Speaker 10: There's two people who.
Speaker 7: A lot of people will be shocked that I'm grateful
Speaker 7: for the first one is the male who came to
Speaker 7: my front door, the husband of the wife who Joel
Speaker 7: had an affair with. And the second one is Jeff Strassner.
Speaker 7: I'm extremely grateful for Jeff Strawssner. I was at a
Speaker 7: community event and he was there, and as we walked
Speaker 7: out together, I said, hey, Jeff, and I could tell
Speaker 7: he was nervous to see me, and he was like, oh,
Speaker 7: you know, hey, Caroline, and I said I'd like to
Speaker 7: thank you, and he looks shocked, and I said, thank
Speaker 7: you for not believing him.
Speaker 10: Thank you for.
Speaker 7: The due diligence of hearing this one out and not
Speaker 7: giving him the benefit of the doubt. You may have
Speaker 7: saved mine in my kids' lives.
Speaker 10: Thank you.
Speaker 7: And Jeff's always been a very friendly and a little
Speaker 7: bit stoic of a man. But his voice started a
Speaker 7: crack and you could see the emotion on him, and
Speaker 7: he said, oh my gosh, thank you for saying that.
Speaker 7: I appreciate you saying that. I have thought about you
Speaker 7: and the kids so much. So when I hear Jeff
Speaker 7: Strassner's commentary in this interview, I'm extremely grateful for him.
Speaker 7: I know that just hours later is when Joel's going
Speaker 7: to do his reveal to me and the kids. So
Speaker 7: it's an interesting thing to reflect back on it and think, yeah,
Speaker 7: what that day must have been like in his world.
Speaker 1: So we know that Strassner recommended Joel for termination, but
Speaker 1: he wasn't fired, was he.
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 1: Joel wasn't fired, and this case only gets more interesting.
Speaker 1: We'll explore how he was able to avoid termination on
Speaker 1: the next episode of Betrayal. Thank you for listening to
Speaker 1: Betrayal season four. If you would like to reach out
Speaker 1: to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Also,
Speaker 1: please be sure to follow us on Instagram at Betrayal
Speaker 1: Pod and me Andrea H. Gunning for all Betrayal content,
Speaker 1: news and updates. One way to support the series is
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Speaker 1: appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason.
Speaker 1: Betrayal is hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written
Speaker 1: and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman,
Speaker 1: our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristin Melcury. Our
Speaker 1: iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing
Speaker 1: by Monique Leboard, audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio,
Speaker 1: editing by Tanner Robbins, and special thanks to Caroline and
Speaker 1: her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music
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