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Speaker 1: Hey guys. Before we get into the episode, a quick note.

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Speaker 1: We're looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly

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Speaker 1: Betrayal series, which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal

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Speaker 1: and feel ready to share your story, now is a

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Speaker 1: great time to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod

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Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just

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Speaker 2: got up and started to walk away, and then as

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Speaker 2: we were walking out of their house, she's fallen behind us,

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Speaker 2: and then she says, I'm going to ruin.

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Speaker 3: Your fucking lives.

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Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode four,

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Speaker 1: Shock to the Conscience. In our last episode, we saw

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Speaker 1: Joel Kern's double life, a side by side comparison of

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Speaker 1: two different realities, but those two realities were on a

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Speaker 1: collision course because Joel's reckoning day at the Colorado Springs

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Speaker 1: Police Department was rapidly approaching. This was the day he'd

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Speaker 1: be forced to answer for his lies, and this time

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't be Caroline who was left in disbelief. It

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Speaker 1: would be Joel's coworkers, officers he'd worked closely with for

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Speaker 1: over two decades men. He graduated from the police academy

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Speaker 1: with men who'd been close friends and mentors. In March

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, Joel was under investigation at the CSPD

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Speaker 1: because a couple came in to file a complaint against him.

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Speaker 1: The wife confessed to having sex with Joel in his

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Speaker 1: police car. He was making amends for her actions, and

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Speaker 1: part of that was alerting the department that one of

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Speaker 1: their officers was up to no good. So the department

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Speaker 1: launched an internal investigation and dug into the claims. Then

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Speaker 1: they called Joel in for his official interview with internal Affairs.

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Speaker 1: He was even able to bring an attorney. His future

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Speaker 1: hinged on what happened in this meeting. We've got it

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Speaker 1: all on tape and we want you to hear it.

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Speaker 4: Good to see you again. It's been a while, okay, Joe,

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Speaker 4: being in the form you've been up be here, so

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Speaker 4: I'll let you read that.

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Speaker 1: They start the interview by having Joel sign a garrity advisement.

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Speaker 1: It's an acknowledgment that he's under investigation, it explains the process,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, it requires him to answer truthfully. After

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Speaker 1: he signs this document. A lie could mean termination.

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Speaker 4: Sir, Okay, we'll get started. It's Lieutenan ron Field Chancellor

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Speaker 4: with the Coloria Springs Police Department Internal Affairs Section. Today's Monday,

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Speaker 4: March twenty first, twenty twenty two. I'm an interviewing on

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Speaker 4: Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards to Internal Affairs case twenty two.

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Speaker 4: That's zero two three. Also present are Lieutenant James Sokolick

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Speaker 4: and Lieutenant Kern's attorney, Joan John Newson. Joel, I know

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Speaker 4: you were a peer, so before going on the record

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Speaker 4: where you provided a tight garrity advicetment, I was did

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Speaker 4: you signed up voluntarily?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 4: Do you have any questions regarding the garrity advicement?

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Speaker 3: No? Okay.

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Speaker 4: Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this

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Speaker 4: matter truthfully today?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 1: You may remember in episode two, Joel's boss, Commander Strawsner,

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Speaker 1: reported a conversation he had with Joel where Joel denied

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Speaker 1: knowing the couple and was worried that someone was impersonating

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Speaker 1: him or filing a false complaint. Strawsner believed him.

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Speaker 4: This is now under garrity. This is your opportunity to

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Speaker 4: just let us know what happened. I don't want you

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Speaker 4: to feel tied to whatever you said to Strustner. Anything

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Speaker 4: that was said there is that good? Is that? Bear?

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Speaker 3: I'll tell you exactly what I told you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, tell us why do you think those allegations against

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Speaker 4: you were brought forward?

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Speaker 2: I don't know why specifically these allegations were made, but

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Speaker 2: I have some ideas. I think maybe the the persons

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Speaker 2: making allegations got in over their head or something, and

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Speaker 2: I suspect that they're catfished me in whatever communication they

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Speaker 2: were having.

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Speaker 1: But before they got into that, Chancel wanted to focus

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Speaker 1: on the incident at Joel's house the day a stranger

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Speaker 1: showed up accusing Joel of having sex with his wife

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Speaker 1: and his police cruisers.

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Speaker 4: My wife out there, the one that you thought in

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Speaker 4: your cruiser? What are you talking about that?

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Speaker 1: Joel wasn't aware that the man had secretly recorded the

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Speaker 1: entire encounter, and Joel didn't know that the man gave

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Speaker 1: the recording to the CSPD. Chanza gave Joel an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to recount what happened from his point of view, I

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Speaker 1: was just.

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Speaker 2: In shocked that someone was standing there saying this to me.

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Speaker 2: So I said, I don't know who you are, but

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Speaker 2: I'm not fucking your wife or anybody else's wife.

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Speaker 3: And he.

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Speaker 2: Looked at me again and then he said, well, I

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Speaker 2: don't even really know if it's you, and if it's

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Speaker 2: not you, I'm really sorry. And I took pause for

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Speaker 2: a second because I'm like, you're coming to my house

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Speaker 2: banging on my front door, and then you dropped this

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Speaker 2: bomb on my household, and then you're going to say

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Speaker 2: that you don't even know if it's me. So I said,

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Speaker 2: you need to get the fuck off my property. I

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Speaker 2: walked onto the sidewalks so I could look in the

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Speaker 2: car just to see who this is. And when I

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Speaker 2: saw the person, I didn't recognize them at all. And

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Speaker 2: then she gets out of the car and then like

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Speaker 2: she's staring at me, and then she has these huge,

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Speaker 2: huge sunglasses on, like so huge I couldn't even see

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Speaker 2: her face really, but they weren't like total blackout, and

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Speaker 2: I could see through the sunglasses that looked like she

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Speaker 2: had like two black eyes, and she's crying.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like Joel, in an effort to deflect the

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Speaker 1: attention off of his own actions, was slightly suggesting this

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Speaker 1: man was beating his wife.

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Speaker 2: And then this guy slams the back of their car

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Speaker 2: and says, is that him like screaming at her? And

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Speaker 2: she startles and she starts to cry even more, and

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Speaker 2: then she shakes her head yes, and then gets right

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Speaker 2: back into the car. And then he said, well, the

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Speaker 2: least that you can do is apologize for ruining my family.

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Speaker 2: And then so I started walking away and I said,

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Speaker 2: I have nothing to apologize for because I don't know you,

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Speaker 2: I don't know your wife. I'm not fucking your wife.

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Speaker 2: I'm not fucking anybody else. And then I just started

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Speaker 2: to walk back in my house and then they drove

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Speaker 2: away eventually.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so you have never seen either one of them.

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Speaker 4: No going back to catfishing. You made a comment about

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Speaker 4: that at the beginning when we opened up. What does

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Speaker 4: that have to do with them coming to your front door?

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Speaker 2: And like two years ago there was a essentially like

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Speaker 2: a breakup of friendships with like four different couples.

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Speaker 1: It seemed like Joel had come prepared with a backstory.

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Speaker 1: He says it all started at a dinner party that

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Speaker 1: he and Caroline attended. It was with a group of

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Speaker 1: couples an argument broke out. The couple hosting got into

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Speaker 1: it with Caroline and Joel. The wife in particular was enraged,

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Speaker 1: so she.

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Speaker 2: Starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just got

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Speaker 2: up and started to walk away, and then as we

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Speaker 2: were walking out of their house, she's fallen behind us,

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Speaker 2: and then she says, I'm going to ruin your fucking lives.

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Speaker 1: The story was over the top ridiculous. Even then it

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Speaker 1: got even stranger, Joel said. Another woman got pulled into

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Speaker 1: the conflict, and the two women teamed up to take

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Speaker 1: down the Kerns.

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Speaker 2: There was another couple who was friends with this lady

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Speaker 2: that said that she's gonna fucking.

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Speaker 3: Ruin my life or ruin our lives.

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Speaker 2: And she, when we were all friends, used to brag

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Speaker 2: about how she would make fake social media accounts and

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Speaker 2: then converse with people using the fake account. Her idea

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Speaker 2: of fun was to impersonate a friend of a person

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Speaker 2: that they already have on Facebook, and then she would

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Speaker 2: start conversing with him on the instant messaging.

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Speaker 1: Chanza asked more questions about the women Joel believed targeted

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Speaker 1: his family, but eventually they got to the heart of

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Speaker 1: the matter.

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Speaker 4: Have you ever had any kind of sexual contact insite

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Speaker 4: your city, a scign take on vehicle?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: Have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone while

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Speaker 4: on duty? No? Okay, so the allegations that are being

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Speaker 4: brought against you are absolutely not true.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 1: Chanza then showed Joel a photograph of a woman. It

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Speaker 1: was not the woman who filed the complaint, it was

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Speaker 1: someone else.

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Speaker 4: Have you ever met this lady?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: No. Have you ever uploaded WhatsApp on your work cell

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Speaker 4: phone number?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 4: Obviously you're aware we took your phone, and, as you

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Speaker 4: may imagine, we dumped your laptop. What if I were

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Speaker 4: to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing

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Speaker 4: them to go to WhatsApp?

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Speaker 6: With that, refresher memory?

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Speaker 1: Lieutenant Chanza began to lay out the evidence they collected. Immediately,

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Speaker 1: Joel's tone shifted, so did his story. These guys worked

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Speaker 1: with Joel for years. This was the last situation they

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Speaker 1: wanted to be in.

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Speaker 4: Obviously, you're aware we took your phone, and, as you

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Speaker 4: may imagine, we dumped your flaptop. What if I were

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Speaker 4: to tell you that you did communicate with someone directing

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Speaker 4: them to go to WhatsApp?

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Speaker 6: With that, refresh your memory?

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Speaker 7: Now?

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Speaker 3: I don't remember in what context you said that her names?

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Speaker 4: What would to help you if batold you she has

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Speaker 4: a Denver number?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I met her at a brew function. I'm sorry

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Speaker 2: to what a brewery function like a beer function?

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Speaker 4: Can you describe that?

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Speaker 3: FORCE just met her.

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Speaker 2: Through there and then we started talking and then share

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Speaker 2: common interests and became friends. But I just know her

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Speaker 2: as her first name. I don't know her last name

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Speaker 2: or anything like that.

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Speaker 3: Well, you recognize the pictures, right, Yeah? Now I do? Yep, Julie.

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Speaker 4: You know how that's looking?

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Speaker 3: Right? Is this the person making allegations? We'll get to.

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Speaker 4: That, But I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility veracity,

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Speaker 4: I'm showing you a picture, I'm giving you a chance

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Speaker 4: to take a look at it, and you're telling me

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Speaker 4: to my face that you don't recognize them.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was mistaken. I apologize for that.

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Speaker 2: I recognized her because I just met her at the

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Speaker 2: prow functions.

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Speaker 3: But that's it.

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Speaker 1: The woman in the photo was the same woman we

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Speaker 1: heard from in an earlier episode. We're not using her

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Speaker 1: name here. She was the one Joel had sex with

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Speaker 1: in the parking lot of a sporting good store. The

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Speaker 1: one Joel was texting when he said, there's been some

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Speaker 1: drama and I deleted everything. The CSPD had copies of

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Speaker 1: their messages.

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Speaker 4: You don't have any kind of leather relationship with her? No.

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Speaker 4: Have you communicated with her through WhatsApp?

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Speaker 2: Yes, just as friends talking through that about different things,

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Speaker 2: but that's it.

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Speaker 8: Do you have a romantic relationship with her, Joel.

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Speaker 3: I do not. Would she say differently, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I don't have a romantic relationship with her.

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Speaker 8: You've been intimate with her?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 9: When I say intimate, I'll be very brontu belueal. So

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Speaker 9: we don't have any to have you even the physically

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Speaker 9: intimate or had sex with her.

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Speaker 1: Before Joel could say anything, so Glik decided to lay

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Speaker 1: it all out there. He was done with Joel's denial.

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Speaker 9: Before you answer that could of pausing I want to say,

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Speaker 9: is I want to make sure it's very clear that

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Speaker 9: the internal affairs detectives are in Denver right now to

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Speaker 9: contact or during this meeting.

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Speaker 8: So this should be a really easy question, Joel.

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Speaker 4: We're another hear to tricky Joe. This is whe're trying

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Speaker 4: to get to the bottom of this. I mean, do

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Speaker 4: you know both of us.

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Speaker 9: So I think let me stop things for a second here. Okay,

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Speaker 9: I really want to clear I know you're talking about

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Speaker 9: catfish all this. That is not the allegation. The allegation,

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Speaker 9: you very clear is you had sex with this person,

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Speaker 9: not that she talked to you about having sex. That

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Speaker 9: you have had sex with this person in your department vehicle.

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Speaker 9: That's not a catfishing situation. It's a very serious allegation.

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Speaker 9: And it's not like a misunderstanding. I'm talking to the

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Speaker 9: wrong person online. This person's identifying that they had sex

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Speaker 9: with you, Joel Kern in your department car, and I'll

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Speaker 9: be honest that it doesn't sound as you being a

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Speaker 9: one hundred percent honest to your Joel. So we're asking

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Speaker 9: again real quick understanding. The detectors are out there to

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Speaker 9: talking to her right now. Have you in physically intimate

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Speaker 9: with this individual?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 8: Did you have sex with them?

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Speaker 3: Yes?

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Speaker 8: Did that occur inside the department vehicle?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 8: Did it occur on duty?

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Speaker 3: No? I mean I guess it could have.

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Speaker 8: Are you familiar with fat Life.

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Speaker 1: I've heard of it, but yeah, bet life is a

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Speaker 1: cank and fetish social networking website.

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Speaker 8: Did you meet her through fat Life.

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Speaker 3: I can't remember if I did or not.

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Speaker 8: You have a fat life account? Did you have a

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Speaker 8: fat Life account?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 9: Okay, So in order to go through fat Life, you

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Speaker 9: have to have an account in order to have those

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Speaker 9: conversations back and forth or do dms of that kind

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Speaker 9: of stuff. So how would you have met her potentially

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Speaker 9: there if you do have an account of that life.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember how I met her exactly. It's been

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Speaker 2: a few years.

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Speaker 4: So we're not gonna let's just give them this one.

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Speaker 4: You just said I might have. So clearly you have

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Speaker 4: been on fed life. Can we establish that.

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Speaker 3: I looked at it.

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Speaker 4: Yes, But and what Jimmy just said is that you

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Speaker 4: cannot get on there without having an account. We've tested

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Speaker 4: all this out.

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Speaker 2: Hm, I deleted I had an account, and then I

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Speaker 2: deleted it when I was trying to get my life

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Speaker 2: back on track.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that's a step in our direction. So you had

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Speaker 4: an account, but you don't know if you've met her

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Speaker 4: through that life.

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Speaker 3: I think I think I did. Yeah, but it wasn't.

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Speaker 3: You're painting it out to be.

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Speaker 4: Passing judgment, Joe. I'll stop you there. We're not. We're

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Speaker 4: giving you an opportunity.

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Speaker 6: To talk to us.

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Speaker 4: All we're trying to establish is that you violate policy,

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Speaker 4: and if you did, obviously we have to be held accountable.

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Speaker 4: Period I mean, that's it. We're not here to pass judgment.

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Speaker 2: So there's periods in my marriage and home life that

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Speaker 2: were bad and then you know, I met her and

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Speaker 2: talked to her and then we just became fast friends.

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Speaker 2: But to the question of violating policy and.

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Speaker 4: All that, okay, but you said that possibly you met

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Speaker 4: her while you were on duty. You were coming back

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Speaker 4: from Denver when you went to this trip that you're

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Speaker 4: thinking about where you're driving your take home vehicle.

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Speaker 6: Yes, okay, So how does that happen?

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Speaker 4: How do you meet her?

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Speaker 6: You said you went to a brewery.

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Speaker 2: It was coming back from a training and then she

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Speaker 2: suggested that we meet, and then so we met on

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Speaker 2: the way back, and then coming back, we just.

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Speaker 3: Met at the I forget the name of the store.

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Speaker 2: Is an outdoor store like around Lincoln and by twenty

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Speaker 2: five okay.

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Speaker 4: And then where do you guys go and have intimate relationships.

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Speaker 2: Well, she came over into my car and then we

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Speaker 2: just talked and everything, and then kissed.

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Speaker 3: A part of the car front passenger.

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Speaker 4: Seat, any other area of the car she might have been.

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Speaker 4: And I'm sure you can probably guess where we're going

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Speaker 4: with this. We obviously took the car, we had the

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Speaker 4: lab search it and do what they do. Would there

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Speaker 4: be any chance for her DNA to be in the

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Speaker 4: back of that car?

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Speaker 3: Oh, sure, she's in the car.

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Speaker 4: Or so, Joel, is your name besides kiss?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is all very embarrassing and humiliating, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: we had sex.

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Speaker 3: Whereabouts in the car, in the in the back only

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Speaker 3: the one time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Joel admitted to certain details, but when and only

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Speaker 1: then he realized they already knew it.

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Speaker 4: So the picture that we're getting, Joel, is that there

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Speaker 4: might be more than one person, And so we want

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Speaker 4: you to think about it. Pause, if you need to

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Speaker 4: take a break, if you need to use the restroom,

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Speaker 4: get some water, and then we can talk about that

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Speaker 4: when we get back.

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Speaker 1: They took a break, and when they returned, Chanza and

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Speaker 1: so Click continued their questioning, did.

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Speaker 3: You have conversations during that light I don't know her name.

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Speaker 2: Or who she is or anything like that, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think you had conversations or I did have conversations

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Speaker 2: with her flight did.

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Speaker 8: You arrange per the download to what's appen so you

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Speaker 8: guys can have conversations privately on your phone.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 9: Did you arrange to meet her at a oil park? Yes,

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Speaker 9: then basically you had sex with her at a oil park.

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Speaker 3: Didn't have sex, there's no penetration.

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Speaker 8: So that was oral sexallently.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 1: Juel is treading carefully here, because admitting to having sex

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Speaker 1: in public is not only admitting to a violation of

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Speaker 1: his duty, but a violation of the law.

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Speaker 9: During this conversation, said when you arranged that, basically she

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Speaker 9: is submissive and you were dominant. She says you struck

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Speaker 9: her several times, leading bruises. I will say before in

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Speaker 9: front of our two. She says this was a consensual accounter.

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Speaker 9: She is not alleging a sexual assault.

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Speaker 4: And remember you're within the confines of garrety.

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Speaker 1: Remember the garrity advisement is a warning given to police

355
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Speaker 1: officers during an internal investigation. The individual signing this advisement

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Speaker 1: is declaring that they will tell the truth.

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Speaker 9: This is not having to do anything to do with

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Speaker 9: a criminal investigation. I'm just trying to lock in her statement.

359
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Speaker 9: She said you left bruses, physically struck her, pull her hair,

360
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Speaker 9: that type of thing. No, okay, So obviously at some

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Speaker 9: point in time after this takes place, you break.

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Speaker 8: Contact with her. Yes, yes, you have any further contact

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Speaker 8: with her.

364
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Speaker 2: Just here there afterwards, but nothing what is here and there?

365
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Speaker 2: Mean just texting a little bit on the app, but

366
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Speaker 2: no physical meetings at westoever.

367
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Speaker 8: So when her husband showed up, you know what he

368
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Speaker 8: was talking about?

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Speaker 3: You know who I am?

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Speaker 4: No, guess my wife felt there when that you're talking

371
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Speaker 4: your cruiser. What are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but again I didn't have sex with her,

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Speaker 2: as in you know, sexual intercourse or anything like that.

374
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Speaker 2: So but yeah, I had an idea.

375
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Speaker 8: Did you recognize her that day?

376
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Speaker 3: Vaguely?

377
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Speaker 4: Yes, So just to clarify the make sure that I'm

378
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 4: showing you here, Joe ass the lady that was there

379
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Speaker 4: that day in front of your house.

380
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Speaker 3: Yes.

381
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Speaker 1: Then the investigators turned to an important element in this case.

382
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,200
Speaker 1: They have a selfie. Joel sent to this woman, a

383
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Speaker 1: photo where he's wearing his police uniform. You can clearly

384
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Speaker 1: see his badge on his chest, and the investigators needed

385
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Speaker 1: to know why. What was Joel's intention?

386
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Speaker 4: You sent a picture of yourself to the complainant in

387
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 4: this case, the person that you met at Memorial Park. Yes, okay,

388
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 4: four you in uniform, can't remember? Did you identify yourself

389
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Speaker 4: as a police officer to this person?

390
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:48,760
Speaker 3: And after some time after we were talking to me, is.

391
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Speaker 4: Why did you do that?

392
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Speaker 3: Because she said that she works in law.

393
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Speaker 2: And the intent was a developing friendships and all that

394
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 2: and having friendships. So it's just more of like a

395
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: getting to know.

396
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 4: The information we received is that she was nervous. Is

397
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 4: that why you sent a picture of yourself or is

398
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 4: that why you identified yourself as a police officer to

399
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 4: now make her feel more comfortable?

400
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 3: No, absolutely not, But you.

401
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 4: Did identify yourself as a police officer.

402
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 3: Yes, So so we start our list.

403
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 8: Why didn't you see what happened?

404
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: Because it's humiliating, it's embarrassing, it's traumatic, and you know,

405
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: all the demons from my past come to rise. And

406
00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 2: I was at a low point definitely in my marriage

407
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: and in my life and.

408
00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 3: Trying to save face, trying to not get fired.

409
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: And I think maybe I priy for help.

410
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 9: There's anything you want to make sure that the person

411
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 9: who means this gets here directly from you?

412
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think I'm salvageable I acknowledge that

413
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,679
Speaker 2: that I needed help for a long time, and I

414
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 2: just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading

415
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: this and promise that you know, I want to do better,

416
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,760
Speaker 2: and I think I need help, and I think it

417
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: would be nice for the department to help me get there.

418
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 2: We pay a lot of lip service about our employees

419
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 2: as our family and all that, but I like to

420
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: maybe somehow believe in that and recognize that I've had issues,

421
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 2: and I've had issues for a long long time, and

422
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: every day is a struggle, and I want help.

423
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 4: And closing this investigation is ongoing. In order to maintain

424
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 4: the confidentiality of this case, I'm giving you a direct

425
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 4: order not to discuss this case or this interview with

426
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 4: anyone other than Internal Affairs or anyone from whom the

427
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,560
Speaker 4: discussion would be legally protected and confidential under Colorado's statute.

428
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 4: Do you understand this order?

429
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 3: I do, okay.

430
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 4: This will conclude the interview. The time now is thirteen

431
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 4: forty four hours.

432
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: Caroline and I listened to the Internal Affairs interview together.

433
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: I wanted to know what she thought of Joel's performance.

434
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,800
Speaker 1: Finally she could hear what was really going on with

435
00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: Joel while she was still in the dark. Caroline remembers

436
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing the week of Joel's interview

437
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 1: because she was on vacation with her daughter. They decided

438
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: to take a trip to Vegas together and soak up

439
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: the desert sun. Joel hung back, saying he was busy

440
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: with work all the while he knew he'd been caught.

441
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: He was just waiting to find out how bad the

442
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: consequences would be.

443
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 7: And he picked us up at the airport with our

444
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 7: dogs in the card, gets out of the car, kisses me,

445
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 7: hugs her.

446
00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 10: Missed you, guys, Oh, we missed you.

447
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 7: We're catching up. We're talking about the food, we ate

448
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 7: and we're filling him in.

449
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 10: How was work?

450
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,359
Speaker 7: Oh, my gosh, so busy this week. I have replayed

451
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 7: that over and over and over and over again to Caroline.

452
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: Her husband seemed completely normal.

453
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 7: Meanwhile, he has just revealed what is going to be

454
00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 7: the detriment to our family.

455
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 10: Wow.

456
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: I mean he signs the garrity, which is basically saying

457
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: that he's promising to tell the truth, and from the

458
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: very beginning from question one, he is lying. Do you

459
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: feel like he thought that he could talk his way

460
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:17,640
Speaker 1: out of it.

461
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 7: I don't think he just thought he could talk his

462
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 7: way out of it. I think that he truly and

463
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 7: his gut believed he would get away with it. He

464
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 7: not only thought that he could have his attorney believe him,

465
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 7: but Joel believed that he would be able to have

466
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 7: Raphael and Jimmy believe him as well.

467
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: And those are the two internal affairs investigators we heard

468
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: questioning him, Raphael Chans and Jimmy Soklick. These are two

469
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 1: people who both knew you guys personally.

470
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 7: Yes. The part that disturbs me so much on this

471
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 7: is not just that he lied, but the level of

472
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 7: personal connection and whom he lied to. They were promoted

473
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 7: on the same day together as lieutenants. We were at

474
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 7: Jimmy Sokolick's wedding. Wow, these were people who had been

475
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 7: at personal events and our lives. He's lying to them,

476
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 7: and not only just lying to them as professionals, colleagues

477
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 7: and friends, but he is lying about the dynamic of

478
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 7: our home. There was not this unhealthy, horrible life at home.

479
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 7: And yet this is what he reverts back to time

480
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 7: and time and time again on the times where he

481
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 7: has gotten caught.

482
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, he refers to your

483
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: marriage being in a bad place. And this isn't the

484
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: first IA investigation where he cites this experience. You don't

485
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: look back at that time feeling like your marriage was

486
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: in a bad place. I do not do you even

487
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: recognize the person on that tape.

488
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 7: So when I hear the investigation, I see the stranger

489
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 7: who I lived with. I do not know that man.

490
00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 7: That man who is on that tape is evil. I

491
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 7: don't know anything about him. He just didn't think he

492
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 7: would get to that point. That's why he started with

493
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 7: the line denying, deflecting, and shifting any of the responsibility.

494
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 7: And then when he had to fall on his sword,

495
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 7: magically it became all this was going sideways at home.

496
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 7: I have demons, I need help. Yeah, it turned into

497
00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 7: a different deflection.

498
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:32,239
Speaker 5: Yeah.

499
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 7: He would make comments about quote slaying his demons, and

500
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 7: then he would talk about I just need to get

501
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 7: back to the man I was.

502
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 10: I could be the husband I was, I could be

503
00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 10: the dad I was. But the fact of the matter is.

504
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: What were you? Yah? Who were you ever?

505
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 7: That's a question that the kids and I have grappled with.

506
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 7: Those are the moments where I question things but I

507
00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 7: have to remind myself the kids and I were living

508
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 7: the truth. He loving the lie.

509
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, How long is it taking you to get

510
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: to that place to be able to say that I.

511
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 10: Do it daily? I still have to do it daily,

512
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 10: all right.

513
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 5: So just to go on the record, today's ago.

514
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: About a month after Joel's Internal Affairs interview judgment day

515
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: finally came, Joel had to face his boss, Commander Strassner,

516
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: who had believed in him, thought the best of him.

517
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 1: You've heard the date several times now, April eleventh, twenty two,

518
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: and Strawsner got right to it.

519
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 3: I want believer the point here this is not.

520
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 5: Did not expect to have to do this with you, Joey,

521
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 5: Really you never expected this would have to be the case.

522
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 5: Did you get the agenda for the meeting?

523
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: Yes, sir, yes, sir. Okay.

524
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 1: Strassner began by laying up the facts of the case.

525
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 5: About four thirty to five pm, you informed me that

526
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 5: you knew you were under investigation. When I asked how

527
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 5: you knew that, you proceeded doing tell me about the

528
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 5: confrontation that occurred on February fifth, professing your innocence and

529
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 5: adamantly denying any involvement in the situation. I had no

530
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 5: reason not to believe your innocence in this case, which

531
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 5: meant that either the couple was lying and needed to

532
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 5: be criminally charged, or that another cop was impersonating you

533
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,719
Speaker 5: and needed to be fired, and that we would make

534
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 5: sure the case was thoroughly investigated. After being advised and

535
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 5: signing the garrity warning, which included in order to answer

536
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 5: questions truthfully, you knowingly lied, providing false information to the

537
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 5: investigators from nearly forty to forty five minutes. You initially

538
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 5: attempted to blame someone you know as for causing you

539
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 5: and your wife's problems and somehow causing this complaint by

540
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 5: catfishing you online. You initially denied ever having an account

541
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 5: on fet life and denied knowing either. Only after being

542
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 5: confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit to

543
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 5: having sex with While admitting to having sex with her,

544
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 5: you initially denied the encounter occurred in your police car.

545
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,960
Speaker 5: You later confessed you might have met her on fet life,

546
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 5: and then did admit the sexual encounter did occur in

547
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 5: your police vehicle. After taking a break in the interview,

548
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:51,760
Speaker 5: you returned finally you admit that you arranged a meeting

549
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 5: and memorial park with you stated you did not have

550
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 5: sex with her because there was no penetration, and quite frankly,

551
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 5: I think this is QUI over the details. Because she

552
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 5: did perform oral sex on you in the back of

553
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 5: the suv. There are discrepancies in the rest of the

554
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 5: interview between what can you describe as having occurred in

555
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 5: the back of the suv. Quite frankly, those details are

556
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 5: irrelevant to proving the overall case. However, given the false

557
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 5: statements you've provided to Internal Affairs, I have no reason

558
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 5: to discount any of her recollection of these events. That's

559
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 5: my overall case summary.

560
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 3: Lieutenant.

561
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 5: Do you have any comments that you want to make.

562
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: I'm extremely remorseful, I'm extremely ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed, upset. I'm

563
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: begging for mercy. I literally was not in my right mind,

564
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 2: and I've been going through a hard time for several

565
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 2: years and I can promise you that.

566
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 3: Nothing like that, whatever ever, happen again.

567
00:34:00,560 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 2: I initially light in the eye interview because I was humiliated, embarrassed, scared.

568
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 3: Didn't I want to.

569
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,760
Speaker 2: How this come to fruition and lose everything.

570
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 8: That I have.

571
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 2: I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness. I promise

572
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: you that none of this will ever happen again. I

573
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: understand that I've shattered your trust and it's something that

574
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,520
Speaker 2: I want to work hard to get back. I apologize

575
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 2: for any of this happening. The last three months have

576
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: been hell, and I just am begging for your mercy.

577
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 5: I'm gonna move to the next section here and just

578
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:08,480
Speaker 5: talking about my comments and insight regarding this case. This

579
00:35:08,560 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 5: case is not about the sex or how you meant

580
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 5: these women. Honestly, I don't really care what your preferences

581
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 5: are unless the PD is somehow brought into this situation.

582
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 5: Has occurred in this case when you sent essentially these

583
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 5: strangers a photograph of yourself in police uniform and used

584
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 5: your work vehicle for your activities. That's what made this

585
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 5: police issue. The week the allegation was filed, you didn't

586
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 5: need to say anything to me about the case, and

587
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 5: quite honestly, I wish you'd not said.

588
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: Anything to me at all. You literally lied.

589
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,800
Speaker 5: To my face on that Wednesday afternoon proclaiming your innocence,

590
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 5: and unless than twenty minutes later was texting with to

591
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 5: tell her there was drama, and that you deleted everything.

592
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 5: Even on Friday, when I tried to reassure you that

593
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 5: I had no reason not to believe you and would

594
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 5: make sure that this case was the investigated, you didn't

595
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 5: flinch even when I threatened to criminally charge this couple

596
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 5: or maybe fire another employee, and you later thanked me

597
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,839
Speaker 5: for believing in you. To me, this is the most

598
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 5: disturbing piece of the entire case. Even in your interview

599
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 5: with IA, as a former investigator yourself, you lied to

600
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 5: Jimmy and rolf A, all trying to pin this on

601
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,839
Speaker 5: a third person named You had five and a half

602
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 5: weeks to think about your interview and decided to stick

603
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 5: with your story and deny that any of this occurred.

604
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 5: The fact that you lied, the fact that you were

605
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 5: willing to put this on a third person or possibly

606
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 5: even have charges filed against the complainant, is absolutely horrific

607
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,359
Speaker 5: and constitutes a violation of your oath in office. I

608
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 5: also cannot ignore the previous history from the twenty nineteen case.

609
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,680
Speaker 1: Strawsner is referring to the case when a reporter contacted

610
00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 1: the CSPD because Joel was for the public information officer job.

611
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 1: The reporter alleged that Joel had sexually harassed her and

612
00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: other reporters.

613
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 5: Twenty nineteen, Commander Mandel wrote, in regard to that incident,

614
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Kern is a valuable member of the departments, committed

615
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 5: to putting this behind him and being a better person

616
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 5: and leader for the organization. I have full confidence that

617
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Kern has learned from his mistakes and he will

618
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,800
Speaker 5: not place himself or the department in this position again.

619
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,359
Speaker 5: I'm hearing some of the same things that were said

620
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:30,959
Speaker 5: last time.

621
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: In that case, Strassner is right back in twenty nineteen,

622
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,800
Speaker 1: Joel had used some of the exact same language. Here's

623
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: Joel in twenty nineteen.

624
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:50,320
Speaker 11: I'm mis shaped, and I'm embarrassed, and I'm hamiliated, and

625
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 11: again I take four responsibility for my actions and yes,

626
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 11: for mercy.

627
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 5: Not only did you put yourself in that same position,

628
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 5: you made it worse. Someone might make that argument that

629
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 5: you were initially evasive in the ie interview, but that

630
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 5: you rectified it later by telling the truth. I want

631
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 5: to be clear that I do not believe you fully

632
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 5: redeemed your credibility or you were completely transparent even near

633
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 5: the end of your interview. You were specifically asked by

634
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 5: Lieutenant Socolick whether you deleted the WhatsApp, to which you

635
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 5: told them yes. Later, Lieutenant Chansa asked you do you

636
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 5: still use WhatsApp currently, and you replied, just to talk

637
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 5: to I believe the slip up proves you're still not

638
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 5: being completely honest with investigators, that you're unable to keep

639
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 5: track of all your lives, and quite frankly, I question

640
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 5: how many other women are out there that may bring

641
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 5: forward allegations in the future. Now, before I present my findings,

642
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 5: I want to address something you stated during your interview

643
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:57,239
Speaker 5: with Lieutenant chans And Sokolick said that you believe you

644
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 5: need help and it would be nice for the department

645
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 5: to help you get there, And you said, quote, we

646
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,720
Speaker 5: pay a lot of lip service about our employees as family,

647
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 5: and I'd like to maybe somehow believe in that and

648
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 5: recognize I've had issues. I want to point out a

649
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 5: couple of things. In twenty nineteen, you receive nothing more

650
00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 5: than a written reprimand at a time when you might

651
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 5: have been able to get more, and you said you

652
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:21,839
Speaker 5: were already seeking the help. I believe this department has

653
00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 5: treated you more than fair regarding these previous indiscretions.

654
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that they weren't.

655
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 5: I'm about to go into the findings of the policies.

656
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 5: Did you have anything you wanted to add?

657
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that I know that the department has been good

658
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: to me. I am sorry that I that this kind

659
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: of stuff happened a second time, but I swear that

660
00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 2: there is nobody else. I'm willing to do whatever it

661
00:39:52,840 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 2: takes to hold on to my employment, and two to

662
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: show that I can do better. And I apologize from

663
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 2: the bottom of my heart. I understand that it looks

664
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: bad the way everything's been discussed here, and again, I'm

665
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: begging for your mercy.

666
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: Strassner was unmoved.

667
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 5: Okay, let's go through each of the policies. So as

668
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 5: I go through these, remember the standard as a preponderance

669
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 5: of the evidence. First one is nine oh six point

670
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 5: three zero. It's the take home Vehicles policy. By a

671
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 5: preponderance of the evidence, your take home vehicle was inappropriately used.

672
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 5: This allegation is sustained four hundred point three zero.

673
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: Another big one, conduct unbecoming of a police officer.

674
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 5: What's reasonable believe that using photographs of yourself an official

675
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 5: police uniform to gain the trust of women you have

676
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 5: met on fees life and then having sex with them

677
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 5: in an official police vehicle has brought disrepute to the

678
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 5: police department. Further, your false statements to me at the

679
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 5: onset were unsolicited and used to paint yourself in the

680
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 5: most favorable light regarding this investigation. This allegation is sustained.

681
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: Then Strawsner reached the most egregious of Joel's violations, and

682
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 1: the final.

683
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 5: Allegation is four hundred point one to three employee conduct

684
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 5: departing from the truth. Employees will not willfully or knowingly

685
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 5: depart from the truth and giving testimony or in connection

686
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 5: with official duties. You were given a garrity advisement and

687
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 5: sign that invisement, knowing you were being ordered to tell

688
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,279
Speaker 5: the truth by a preponderance of the evidence, you gave

689
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 5: a false statement for the first approximate forty minutes of

690
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 5: the interview. Only when confronted with evidence did you finally

691
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 5: begin to confess some of your role in this case. Yet,

692
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:52,600
Speaker 5: as I said, I still am not sure that you've

693
00:41:52,640 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 5: told the whole truth. This is sustained as well. This

694
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 5: whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience.

695
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 5: It really has, and honestly, I think we've been painted

696
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 5: into a corner where there's really only one outcome. In

697
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 5: this case, I can recommend. I have no option but

698
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 5: to recommend your termination.

699
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: Caroline. It feels like, maybe for the first time, someone

700
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 1: with authority sees through Joel's facade. What went through your

701
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 1: mind when you heard Joel's boss in front him.

702
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 7: I think it's fascinating to listen to when Strasner says,

703
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 7: and I believe there's more, there's more women. I question

704
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:51,440
Speaker 7: how many other women will come forward? And then hearing

705
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 7: Joel say I swear these were the only two. I

706
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 7: swear these were the only two. And next thing you know,

707
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 7: it's all kinds of different names are being revealed, and

708
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,040
Speaker 7: all of these sexual encounters and sexually illicit behavior while

709
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,800
Speaker 7: he's under the guise of a police officer.

710
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to Strawsner?

711
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,040
Speaker 5: I did.

712
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: What can you tell me about that?

713
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 10: There's two people who.

714
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 7: A lot of people will be shocked that I'm grateful

715
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 7: for the first one is the male who came to

716
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 7: my front door, the husband of the wife who Joel

717
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 7: had an affair with. And the second one is Jeff Strassner.

718
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 7: I'm extremely grateful for Jeff Strawssner. I was at a

719
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 7: community event and he was there, and as we walked

720
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,359
Speaker 7: out together, I said, hey, Jeff, and I could tell

721
00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:42,440
Speaker 7: he was nervous to see me, and he was like, oh,

722
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,400
Speaker 7: you know, hey, Caroline, and I said I'd like to

723
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 7: thank you, and he looks shocked, and I said, thank

724
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 7: you for not believing him.

725
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 10: Thank you for.

726
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 7: The due diligence of hearing this one out and not

727
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 7: giving him the benefit of the doubt. You may have

728
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 7: saved mine in my kids' lives.

729
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 10: Thank you.

730
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 7: And Jeff's always been a very friendly and a little

731
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 7: bit stoic of a man. But his voice started a

732
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,239
Speaker 7: crack and you could see the emotion on him, and

733
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 7: he said, oh my gosh, thank you for saying that.

734
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 7: I appreciate you saying that. I have thought about you

735
00:44:29,719 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 7: and the kids so much. So when I hear Jeff

736
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 7: Strassner's commentary in this interview, I'm extremely grateful for him.

737
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 7: I know that just hours later is when Joel's going

738
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 7: to do his reveal to me and the kids. So

739
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 7: it's an interesting thing to reflect back on it and think, yeah,

740
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 7: what that day must have been like in his world.

741
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: So we know that Strassner recommended Joel for termination, but

742
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: he wasn't fired, was he.

743
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 4: No?

744
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:19,280
Speaker 1: Joel wasn't fired, and this case only gets more interesting.

745
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 1: We'll explore how he was able to avoid termination on

746
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:32,239
Speaker 1: the next episode of Betrayal. Thank you for listening to

747
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: Betrayal season four. If you would like to reach out

748
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: to the Betrayal team, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail

749
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Also,

750
00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: please be sure to follow us on Instagram at Betrayal

751
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,840
Speaker 1: Pod and me Andrea H. Gunning for all Betrayal content,

752
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: news and updates. One way to support the series is

753
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Please rate

754
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: and review Betrayal five star reviews help us know you

755
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 1: appreciate what we do. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,

756
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

757
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,280
Speaker 1: The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason.

758
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: Betrayal is hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written

759
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: and produced by Carrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman,

760
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: our associate producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristin Melcury. Our

761
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 1: iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing

762
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,920
Speaker 1: by Monique Leboard, audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio,

763
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: editing by Tanner Robbins, and special thanks to Caroline and

764
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music

765
00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: library provided by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart,

766
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,359
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

767
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: your podcasts