1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, we have some exciting news to share. ABC 2 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: News Studios has turned Caroline Barega's story from Betrayal Season 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: four into a docu series. You'll get to meet the 4 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,879 Speaker 1: people involved, you'll hear from people who have never spoken before, 5 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: and you get to see where this story took place. 6 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: We are so proud and excited to share it with 7 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: you all. Stream Betrayal Dirty Secrets now on Hulu or 8 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,960 Speaker 1: Hulu for Disney Plus. Hey, guys, Before we get into 9 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: the episode, a quick note. We're looking for news stories 10 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: of Betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series, which returns in August. 11 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: If you've experienced betrayal and feel ready to share your story, 12 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: now is a great time to reach out. Email us 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod 14 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 2: She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just 16 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: got up and started to walk away, and then as 17 00:00:54,480 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: we were walking out of their house, she's fallen behind us, 18 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,040 Speaker 2: and then she says, your fucking lies. 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Season four, episode four, 20 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: Shock to the Conscience. In our last episode, we saw 21 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: Joel Karn's double life a side by side comparison of 22 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: two different realities, but those two realities were on a 23 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: collision course because Joel's reckoning day at the Colorado Springs 24 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: Police Department was rapidly approaching. This was the day he'd 25 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: be forced to answer for his lies, and this time 26 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be Caroline who was left in disbelief. It 27 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: would be Joel's coworkers, officers he'd worked with for over 28 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 1: two decades. Men he graduated from the police academy with 29 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: men who'd been close friends and mentors. In March twenty 30 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: twenty two, Joel was under investigation at the CSPD because 31 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: a couple came in to file a complaint against him. 32 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: The wife confessed to having sex with Joel in his 33 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: police car. She was making amends for her actions, and 34 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: part of that was alerting the department that one of 35 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,799 Speaker 1: their officers was up to no good. So the department 36 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,400 Speaker 1: launched an internal investigation and dug into the claims. Then 37 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: they called Joel in for his official interview with internal affairs. 38 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 1: He was even able to bring an attorney. His future 39 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: hinged on what happened in this meeting. We've got it 40 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: all on tape and we want you to hear it. 41 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: Goodness, see her again. 42 00:02:55,360 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 4: It's been a while, okay, Joel, you've been up here, so. 43 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 3: I'll let you read that. 44 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: They start the interview by having Joel sign a garrity advisement. 45 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: It's an acknowledgment that he's under investigation. It explains the process, 46 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 1: and most importantly, it requires him to answer truthfully after 47 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: he signs this document. A lie could mean termination. 48 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: Sir, okay, all right, we'll get started. 49 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 4: It's Lutenan ro Field, Chancellor with the Colorace Springs Police 50 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 4: Department Internal Affairs Section. Today's Monday, March twenty first, twenty 51 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 4: twenty two. I'm a interviewing Lieutenant Joel Kern in regards 52 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 4: to internal Affairs case twenty two. 53 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: That's zero two three. 54 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 4: Also present are Lieutenant James Sokolik and Lieutenant Kern's attorney, 55 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 4: Joan John Newsom. Joel, I know you were a peer, 56 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,600 Speaker 4: so before going on the record where you have provided 57 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 4: a tight garrity invistment, it was did you sign that voluntarily? 58 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 2: Yes? 59 00:03:53,160 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 3: Do you have any questions regarding the garrity advicement? 60 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 5: No? 61 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 2: Okay? 62 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 4: Will you be answering all of our questions concerning this 63 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 4: matter truth today. 64 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: Yes, you may remember. In episode two, Joel's boss, Commander Strassner, 65 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: reported a conversation he had with Joel or Joel denied 66 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: knowing the couple and was worried that someone was impersonating 67 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: him or filing a false complaint. Strawsner believed him. 68 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 4: This is now under garrity. This is your opportunity to 69 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 4: just let us know what happened. I don't want you 70 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 4: to feel tied to whatever you said to Strassner. Anything 71 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:32,720 Speaker 4: that was said there is that good? Is that bear? 72 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 2: I'll tell you exactly what I told you. 73 00:04:36,520 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 4: Okay, tell us why do you think those allegations against 74 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 4: you were brought forward? 75 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: I don't know why specifically these allegations were made, but 76 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: I have some ideas. I think maybe the the persons 77 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 2: making allegations got in over their head or something, and 78 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: I suspect that there catfished me in whatever communication they 79 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 2: were heavy. 80 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: But before they got into that, Chansen wanted to focus 81 00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 1: on the incident at Joel's house the day a stranger 82 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,599 Speaker 1: showed up accusing Joel of having sex with his wife 83 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: and his police cruiser. 84 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 6: See that's my wife out there, the one that you 85 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:23,679 Speaker 6: fucked in your cruiser? 86 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 3: What are you talking about that? 87 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 1: Joel wasn't aware that the man had secretly recorded the 88 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: entire encounter, and Joel didn't know that the man gave 89 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: the recording to the CSPD. Chanza gave Joel an opportunity 90 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: to recount what happened from his point of view. 91 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: I was just in shocked that someone was standing there 92 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 2: saying this to me. So I said, I don't know 93 00:05:47,760 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 2: who you are, but I'm not fucking your wife or 94 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: anybody else's wife. And he looked at me again and 95 00:05:57,920 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: then he said, well, I don't even really know if 96 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 2: it's you, and if it's not you, I'm really sorry. 97 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 2: And I took pause for a second because I'm like, 98 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: you're coming to my house banging on my front door, 99 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: and then you drop this bomb on my household, and 100 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 2: then you're gonna say that you don't even know if 101 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 2: it's me. So I said, you need to get the 102 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: fuck off my property. I walked onder the sidewalks so 103 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 2: I could look in the car just to see who 104 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,680 Speaker 2: this is, and when I saw the person, I didn't 105 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 2: recognize them at all. And then she gets out of 106 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 2: the car and then like she's staring at me. And 107 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: then she has these huge, huge sunglasses on, like so 108 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: huge I couldn't even see her face really, but they 109 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 2: weren't like total blackout, and I could see through the 110 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 2: sunglasses that looked like she had like two black eyes. 111 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 2: And she's crying. 112 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 1: It seemed like Joel, in an effort to deflect the 113 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,240 Speaker 1: attention off of his own actions, was slyly suggesting this 114 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: man was beating his wife. 115 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 2: And then this guy slams the back of their car 116 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 2: and says, is that him by screaming at her, and 117 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 2: she startles and she starts to cry even more, and 118 00:07:21,160 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 2: then she shakes her head yes, and then gets right 119 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 2: back into the car. And then he said, well, the 120 00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 2: least that you can do is apologize for ruining my family. 121 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: And then so I started walking away, and I said, 122 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 2: I have nothing to apologize for because I don't know you, 123 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 2: I don't know your wife. I'm not fucking your wife. 124 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 2: I'm not fucking anybody else. And then I just started 125 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: to walk back in my house, and then they drove away. Eventually. 126 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 4: Okay, so you have never seen you the one of them. 127 00:07:55,280 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 4: No going back to catfishing. You made a comment about 128 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 4: that at the beginning when we opened up. What does 129 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 4: that have to do with them coming to your front door? 130 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:18,120 Speaker 2: And like two years ago there was a essentially like 131 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: a breakup of friendships with like four different couples. 132 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 1: It seemed like Joel had come prepared with a backstory. 133 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: He says it all started at a dinner party that 134 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,600 Speaker 1: he and Caroline attended. It was with a group of couples, 135 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 1: an argument broke out. The couple hosting got into it 136 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: with Caroline and Joel. The wife in particular was enraged, so. 137 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 2: She starts screaming and yelling at us, and we just 138 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: got up and started to walk away, and then as 139 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: we were walking out of their house, she's fallen behind us, 140 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 2: and then she says, I'm going to ruin your fucking lives. 141 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: The story was over the top ridiculous. Even then it 142 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: got even Joel said, another woman got pulled into the conflict, 143 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 1: and the two women teamed up to take down the Kerns. 144 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 2: There was another couple who was friends with this lady 145 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: that said that she's gonna fucking ruin my life or 146 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 2: ruin our lives. And she, when we were all friends, 147 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: used to brag about how she would make fake social 148 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: media accounts and then converse with people using the fake account. 149 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: Her idea of fun was to impersonate a friend of 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 2: a person that they already have on Facebook, and then 151 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 2: she would start conversing with them on the instant messaging. 152 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: Chanza asked more questions about the women Joel believed targeted 153 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: his family, but eventually they got to the heart of 154 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: the matter. 155 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,080 Speaker 4: Have you ever had any kind of sexual contact insite 156 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 4: your city assigned take on vehicle? 157 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 5: No? 158 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 4: Have you ever had any sexual contact with anyone while 159 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 4: on duty? 160 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 3: No? 161 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 4: Okay, so the alleyations that are being brought against you 162 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 4: are absolutely not true. 163 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: No. 164 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,760 Speaker 1: Chanza then showed Joel a photograph of a woman. It 165 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:12,960 Speaker 1: was not the woman who filed the complaint, it was 166 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: someone else. 167 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 3: Have you ever met this lady? 168 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 2: No? 169 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:21,719 Speaker 4: No, Have you ever uploaded WhatsApp on your work cell 170 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 4: phone number? Now, obviously you're aware we took your phone 171 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 4: and as you may imagine, we dumped your laptop. What 172 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:35,440 Speaker 4: if I were to tell you that you did communicate 173 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 4: with someone directing them to go to WhatsApp? 174 00:10:39,320 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 3: With that refresher. 175 00:10:40,120 --> 00:11:03,760 Speaker 1: Memory, Lieutenant Chanza began to lay out the evidence they 176 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:10,440 Speaker 1: collected Immediately Joel's tone shifted, so did his story. These 177 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: guys worked with Joel for years. This was the last 178 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: situation they wanted to be in. 179 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 4: Obviously, you're aware we took your phone and as you 180 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 4: may imagine. 181 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: We dumped your laptop. 182 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 4: What if I were to tell you that you did 183 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,360 Speaker 4: communicate with someone directing them to go to WhatsApp with that? 184 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 3: Refresh your memory? 185 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 5: Now? 186 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 2: I don't remember in what context you said that every names? 187 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 3: What would help you? If Batolius she has a Denver number? 188 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? I met her at a brew function. I'm sorry 189 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 2: what a brewery function? Like a beer function? 190 00:11:58,640 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 3: Can you describe that? 191 00:11:59,520 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 5: For uce? 192 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 2: Just met her through there and then we started talking 193 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 2: and then share common interest and became friends. But I 194 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:12,839 Speaker 2: just know her. It's her first name. I don't know 195 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 2: her last name or anything like that. 196 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 3: Well you recognize the picture. 197 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, now I do? 198 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,559 Speaker 3: Yep, Julie, you know how that's looking? 199 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: Right? Is this the person making allegations? We'll get to that. 200 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:34,119 Speaker 4: But I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility veracity, 201 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 4: I'm showing you a picture, I'm giving you a chance 202 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 4: to take a look at it, and you're telling me 203 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 4: to my face that you don't recognize. 204 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: Them, Well, I was mistaken. I apologize for that. I 205 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:52,720 Speaker 2: recognized her because I just met her at the prow functions. 206 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: But that's it. 207 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,520 Speaker 1: The woman in the photo was the same woman we 208 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: heard from in an earlier episode. We're not using her 209 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: name here. She was the one Joel had sex with 210 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: in the parking lot of a sporting good store, the 211 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: one Joel was texting when he said there's been some 212 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 1: drama and I deleted everything. The CSPD had copies of 213 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 1: their messages. 214 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 4: You don't have any kind of other relationship with her? No? 215 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,000 Speaker 3: Have you communicated with her through WhatsApp? 216 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:27,679 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, just as friends talking through that about different things. 217 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: But that's it. 218 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,239 Speaker 6: Do you have a romantic relationship with her, Joel. 219 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 2: I do not? 220 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 6: Would she say differently? 221 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't have a romantic relationship with her. 222 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:44,240 Speaker 6: I've been intimate with her. 223 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 7: No, when I say intimate, I'll be very bront and liutal. 224 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:49,520 Speaker 7: So we don't have any Have you even the physically 225 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 7: intimate or had sex with her? 226 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:55,560 Speaker 1: Before Joel could say anything, so Coolik decided to lay 227 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: it all out there. He was done with Joel's denial. 228 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 7: Before you answer that could you're pausing I'm going to say, 229 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 7: is I want to make sure it's very clear that 230 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 7: the internal affairs detetives are in Denver right now to 231 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 7: contact or during this meeting. 232 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 6: So this should be a really easy question. 233 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 4: Joel, were now here to tricky Joe. This is we're 234 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 4: trying to get to the bottom of this. I mean, 235 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 4: do you know both of. 236 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 6: Us so perfect. 237 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 7: Let me stop things for a second here, Okay, I 238 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 7: really want to clear I know you're talking about catfishing 239 00:14:21,920 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 7: on this that is not the allegation. The allegation, be 240 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 7: very clear, is you had sex with this person, not 241 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 7: that she talked to you about having sex. That you've 242 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:32,600 Speaker 7: had sex with this person in your department vehicle. That's 243 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 7: not a cat fishing situation. So very serious allegation, and 244 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 7: it's not like a misunderstanding I'm talking to the wrong 245 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 7: person online. This person's identifying that they had sex with you, 246 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 7: Joel Kern in your department car. And I'll be honest, 247 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 7: it doesn't sound as you being a one hundred percent 248 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 7: honest to your Joel. So we're asking you again real 249 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 7: quick understanding the detectors are out there to talking to 250 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 7: her right now. 251 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:55,840 Speaker 6: Have you physically intimate with this individual? 252 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 2: Yes? 253 00:14:58,240 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 6: Did you have sex with them? 254 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: Yes? 255 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 6: Did that occur inside an apartment vehicle? 256 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:03,400 Speaker 4: No? 257 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 6: Did it occur on duty? 258 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 2: No? I mean I guess it could have. 259 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 6: Are you familiar with fat Life. 260 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 2: I've heard of it, but yeah. 261 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: Bet life is a kink in fetish social networking website. 262 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 6: Did you meet her through fat Life? 263 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: I can't remember if I did or not. 264 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 6: You have a fat Life account? 265 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 4: No? 266 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 6: Did you have a fat Life account? 267 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: No? 268 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 7: Okay, So in order to go through fat Life you 269 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 7: have to have an account in order to have those 270 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 7: conversations back and forth or do dms of that kind 271 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 7: of stuff. So how would you have met her potentially there? 272 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 7: If you do have an account of fat Life. 273 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 2: I don't remember how I met her exactly. It's been 274 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: a few years. 275 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 3: So we're not gonna let's just get on this one. 276 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 4: You just said I might have, so clearly you have 277 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 4: been on fat Life. 278 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 3: Can we establish that I looked at it? 279 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 4: Yes, But and what Jimmy just said is that you 280 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 4: cannot get on there without having an account. 281 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 3: We've tested all this out. 282 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. I deleted I had an account and then 283 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 2: I deleted it when I was trying to get my 284 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: life back on track. 285 00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 3: Okay, that's a step in right direction. So you had 286 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 3: an account, but you don't know if you met her 287 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 3: through that life. 288 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: I think I did, Yeah, but it wasn't. You're painting 289 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: it out to be when I'm passing. 290 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: Judgment, Joe, I'll stop you there. We're not. We're giving 291 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: an opportunity to talk to us. 292 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 4: All we're trying to establish is that you violate policy, 293 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 4: and if you did, obviously we have to be held accountable. 294 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 3: Period. I mean, that's it. We're not here to pass judgment. 295 00:16:53,360 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 2: So there's per in my marriage and home life that 296 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: were bad and then you know, I met her and 297 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 2: talked to her and then we just became fast friends. 298 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 2: But to the question of violating policy and. 299 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 4: All that, okay, but you said that possibly you met 300 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 4: her while you were on duty. You were coming back 301 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 4: from Denver, when you went to this trip that you're 302 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 4: thinking about where you're driving your take home vehicle. Yes, okay, 303 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 4: So how does that happen? 304 00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 3: How do you meet her? You said you went to. 305 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 2: A brewery, it was coming back from a training and 306 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 2: then she suggested that we meet and then so we 307 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: met on the way back and then coming back. We 308 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 2: just met at the I forget the name of the 309 00:17:56,720 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 2: store is outdoor store like around Lincoln and I twenty five. 310 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 4: Okay, and then where do you guys go and have 311 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 4: intimate relationships? 312 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 2: Well, she she came over into my car and then 313 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 2: we just talked and everything and then kissed. Okay, I'm 314 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,960 Speaker 2: a part of the car, front, passenger seat. 315 00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 4: Any other area of the car she might have been, 316 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,520 Speaker 4: And I'm sure you can probably guess where we're going 317 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 4: with this. We obviously took the car, we had the 318 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 4: lab search it and do what they do. 319 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 3: Would there be. 320 00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 4: Any chance for her DNA to be in the back 321 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: of that car? 322 00:18:51,240 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 2: Oh? Sure, she's in the car. 323 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 6: So Joe, did your name besides kiss? 324 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 2: Well, this is all very embarrassing and humiliating, but yeah, 325 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,280 Speaker 2: we had sex. 326 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 3: Whereabouts in the car in the bag only the one time. 327 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: Okay. 328 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: Joel admitted to certain details, but when and only when 329 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: he realized they already knew it. 330 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 4: So the picture that we're getting, Joel is that there 331 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 4: might be more than one person, And so we want 332 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 4: you to think about it. Pause, if you need to 333 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 4: take a break, if you need to use the restroom, 334 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 4: get some water and then we can talk about that 335 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 4: when we get back. 336 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: They took a break and when they returned, Chanza and 337 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:54,400 Speaker 1: Sokleiga continued their questioning, did you have conversation. 338 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 2: During that light I don't know her name or who 339 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 2: she is or anything like that, but yeah, I think 340 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: you had conversations or I did have conversations with her 341 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 2: in FID life. 342 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 7: Okay, did you arrange per to download to What's appen 343 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 7: so you guys can have conversations. 344 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:09,639 Speaker 6: Privately on your phone? 345 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 2: Yes? 346 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 6: Did you arrange to meet her at at Oyal Park? 347 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 2: Yes? 348 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,200 Speaker 6: Then basically you had sex with her at on Oyal Park. 349 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: Didn't have sex, there's no penetration, so that was oral 350 00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 2: sex only. Yes. 351 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: Joel is streading carefully here, because admitting to having sex 352 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: in public is not only admitting to a violation of 353 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 1: his duty, but a violation of the law. 354 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 7: During this conversation, said, when you arranged that, basically she 355 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 7: is submissive and you were dominant. She says, you struck 356 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 7: her several times, leaving bruises. I will say before in 357 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,360 Speaker 7: front of our two. She says, this was a consensual accounter. 358 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 7: She is not alleging a sexual assault. 359 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: And remember you're within the confines of garrety. 360 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: Remember, the garrity advisement is a warning given to police 361 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 1: officers during an internal investigation. In the individual signing this 362 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 1: advisement is declaring that they will tell the truth. 363 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 7: This is not having to do anything to do with 364 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 7: a criminal investigation. I'll just try to lock in her statement. 365 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 7: She said you left bruises and physically struck her, pulled 366 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 7: her hair, that type of thing. No, So obviously at 367 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 7: some point in time after this takes place, you break 368 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 7: contact with her she leaves. Yes, you have any further 369 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 7: contact with her. 370 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 2: Just here or there afterwards, but nothing. What is here 371 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 2: and there means just texting a little bit on the app, 372 00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:41,360 Speaker 2: but no physical meetings at West Farver. 373 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 6: So when her husband showed up, you know what he 374 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 6: was talking about? 375 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: Who I am? No, that's my wife? 376 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 6: Felt there the woman you're talking your cruiser? 377 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 3: What are you talking about? 378 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but again I didn't have sex with her 379 00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 2: as in you know, sessional intercourse or anything like that, 380 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: but yeah, I had an idea. 381 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 6: Did you recognize her in that day? 382 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 2: Vaguely yes. 383 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 4: So just to clarify the picture that I'm showing you here, 384 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 4: jus is the lady that was there that day in 385 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 4: front of your house. 386 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 2: Yes. 387 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: Then the investigators turned to an important element in this case. 388 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: They have a selfie. Joel sent to this woman a 389 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: photo where he's wearing his police uniform. You can clearly 390 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: see his badge on his chest, and the investigators needed 391 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: to know why. What was Joel's intention? 392 00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 3: You sent a picture of yourself. 393 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,439 Speaker 4: To the complainant in this case, the person that you 394 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 4: met at Memorial Park. 395 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 3: Yes, okay, four year in uniform. 396 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 2: I can't remember. 397 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 3: That. You identify yourself as a police officer to this. 398 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,920 Speaker 2: Person after some time until we were talking. Yes, why 399 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 2: did you do that? Because she said that she works 400 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 2: in law and the intent was a developing friendships and 401 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: all that and having friendships. So it's just more of 402 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 2: like a getting to know. 403 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: The information we received is that she was nervous. 404 00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 4: Is that why you sent a picture of yourself or 405 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 4: is that why you identified yourself as. 406 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 3: A police officer to now to make her feel more comfortable? 407 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 2: No, absolutely not, Yes, but you. 408 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 3: Did identify yourself as a police officer. 409 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 2: Yes, so Joe, we. 410 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 6: Start our list. Why didn't you see what happened? 411 00:23:54,920 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 2: Because it's humiliating, it's embarrassing, It's traumatic, and you know, 412 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: all the demons from my past come to rise. And 413 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 2: I was at the low point, definitely in my marriage 414 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 2: and in in my life and trying to save face, 415 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:31,720 Speaker 2: trying to not get fired. And I think maybe I 416 00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 2: cried for help. 417 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,920 Speaker 6: There's anything you want to make sure that the person 418 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 6: who means this gets here directly from you. 419 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think I'm salvageable. I acknowledged that 420 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,320 Speaker 2: that I've needed help for a long time, and I 421 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,919 Speaker 2: just throw myself at the mercy of the people reading 422 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 2: this and promise that. You know, I want to do better, 423 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 2: and I think I need help, and I think it 424 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: would be nice for the department to help me get there. 425 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: We pay a lot of lip service about our employees 426 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 2: as our family and all that, but I like to 427 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 2: maybe somehow believe in that and recognize that I've had issues, 428 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: and I've had issues for a long long time, and 429 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 2: every day is a struggle and I want help. 430 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 4: And closing this investigation is ongoing. In order to maintain 431 00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 4: the confidentiality of this case, I'm giving you a direct 432 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 4: order not to discuss this case or this interview with 433 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 4: anyone other than internal Affairs or anyone from whom the 434 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 4: discussion would be legally protected and confidential under Colorado's statute. 435 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 3: Do you understand this order? 436 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:57,480 Speaker 2: I do? 437 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 3: Okay, this will conclude the inner you. 438 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:08,359 Speaker 4: The time now is thirteen forty four hours. 439 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: Caroline and I listened to the Internal Affairs interview together. 440 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to know what she thought of Joel's performance. 441 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 1: Finally she could hear what was really going on with 442 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: Joel while she was still in the dark. Caroline remembers 443 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 1: exactly what she was doing the week of Joel's interview 444 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 1: because she was on vacation with her daughter. They decided 445 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: to take a trip to Vegas together and soak up 446 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,200 Speaker 1: the desert sun. Joel hung back, saying he was busy 447 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: with work all the while. He knew he'd been caught. 448 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: He was just waiting to find out how bad the 449 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: consequences would be. 450 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 8: And he picked us up at the airport with our 451 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 8: dogs in the car. 452 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:53,199 Speaker 3: You know. 453 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 8: God gets out of the car, kisses me, hugs her. 454 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,479 Speaker 8: Missed you, guys, Oh, we missed you. We're catching up. 455 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 8: We're talking about the food we ate and we're filling 456 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 8: him in. How was work, Oh my gosh, so busy 457 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 8: this week. I have replayed that over and over and 458 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 8: over and over again to Caroline. 459 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:14,479 Speaker 1: Her husband seemed completely normal. 460 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 8: Meanwhile, he has just revealed what is going to be 461 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 8: the detriment to our family. 462 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 7: Wow. 463 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: I mean he signs the garrity, which is basically saying 464 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: that he's promising to tell the truth, and from the 465 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: very beginning, from question one, he is lying. Do you 466 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,760 Speaker 1: feel like he thought that he could talk his way 467 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: out of it. 468 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:43,959 Speaker 8: I don't think he just thought he could talk his 469 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 8: way out of it. I think that he truly, in 470 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 8: his gut believed he would get away with it. He 471 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 8: not only thought that he could have his attorney believe him, 472 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 8: but Joel believed that he would be able to have 473 00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 8: Raphael and Jimmy believe him as well. 474 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 1: And those are the two internal affairs investigators we heard 475 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 1: questioning him, Raphael Chans and Jimmy So click. These are 476 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: two people who both knew you guys personally. 477 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 8: Yes. The part that disturbs me so much on this 478 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 8: is not just that he lied, but the level of 479 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,399 Speaker 8: personal connection and whom he lied to. They were promoted 480 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 8: on the same day together as lieutenants. We were at 481 00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 8: Jimmy Sokolick's wedding. Wow, these were people who had been 482 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 8: at personal events and our lives. He's lying to them, 483 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 8: and not only just lying to them as professionals, colleagues 484 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 8: and friends, but he is lying about the dynamic of 485 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,719 Speaker 8: our home. There was not this unhealthy, horrible life at home. 486 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 8: And yet this is what he reverts back to time 487 00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 8: and time and time again on the times where he 488 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 8: has gotten caught. 489 00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, he refers to your 490 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: marriage being in a bad place. And this isn't the 491 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: first f I a investigation where he cites this experience. 492 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 1: You don't look back at that time feeling like your 493 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,719 Speaker 1: marriage was in a bad place. I do not Do 494 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: you even recognize the person on that tape. 495 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 8: So when I hear the investigation, I see the stranger 496 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 8: who I lived with. I do not know that man. 497 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 8: That man who is on that tape is evil. I 498 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 8: don't know anything about him. He just didn't think he 499 00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 8: would get to that point. That's why he started with 500 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 8: the line denying, deflecting, and shifting any of the responsibility. 501 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 8: And then when he had to fall on his sword 502 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 8: magically it became all this was going sideways at home. 503 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 8: I have demons. I need help. Yeah, it turned into 504 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 8: a different deflection. 505 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 5: Yeah. 506 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 8: He would make comments about quote slaying his demons, and 507 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 8: then he would talk about I just need to get 508 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 8: back to the. 509 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: Man I was. 510 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 8: I could be the husband I was, I could be 511 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 8: the dad I was. But the fact of the matter is. 512 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 5: What were you? 513 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:10,520 Speaker 7: Okay? 514 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: Who were you ever? 515 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 8: That's a question that the kids and I have grappled with. 516 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 8: Those are the moments where I question things. But I 517 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 8: have to remind myself the kids and I were living 518 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 8: the truth. He was living the lie. 519 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, how long is it taking me to get 520 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: to that place to be able to say that I 521 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: do it daily? 522 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 8: I still have to do it daily. 523 00:30:58,480 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: So, just to go on the record, today's ab About 524 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: a month after Joel's internal Affairs interview, judgment day finally came. 525 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: Joel had to face his boss, Commander Strawsner, who had 526 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: believed in him, thought the best of him. You've heard 527 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: the date several times now, April eleventh, twenty twenty two, 528 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 1: and Strawsner got right to it. 529 00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 6: I want to beliebor the point here. 530 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 5: This is not did not expect to have to do 531 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 5: this with you, Joel. I really you'd never expected this 532 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 5: would have to. 533 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 2: Be the case. 534 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 5: Did you get the agenda for the meeting? 535 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 6: Yes, sir, Yes, sir. 536 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: Okay Strawsner began by laying out the facts of the case. 537 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 5: About four thirty to five pm, you informed me that 538 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 5: you knew you were under investigation. When I asked how 539 00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 5: you knew that, you proceeded to do and tell me 540 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 5: about the confrontation that occurred on February fifth, professing your 541 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 5: innocence and adamantly denying any involvement in the situation. I 542 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 5: had no reason not to believe your innocence in this case, 543 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 5: which meant that either the couple was lying and needed 544 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 5: to be criminally charged, or that another cop was impersonating 545 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 5: you and needed to be fired, and that we would 546 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 5: make sure the case was thoroughly investigated. After being advised 547 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,480 Speaker 5: and signing the garrity warning, which included in order to 548 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 5: answer questions truthfully, you knowingly lied, providing false information to 549 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 5: the investigators. From nearly forty to forty five minutes. You 550 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 5: initially attempted to blame someone you knows for causing you 551 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,960 Speaker 5: and your wife's problems and somehow causing this complaint by 552 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 5: catfishing you online. You initially denied ever having an account 553 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 5: on fet life and denied knowing either. 554 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 2: Only after being. 555 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 5: Confronted with specific facts did you begin to admit to 556 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 5: having sex with her. While admitting to having sex with her, 557 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 5: you initially denied the encounter occurred in your police car. 558 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,600 Speaker 5: You later confessed you might have met her on fet life, 559 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 5: and then did admit the sexual encounter did occur in 560 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 5: your police vehicle. After taking a break in the interview, 561 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 5: you returned. Finally, you admit that you arranged a meeting 562 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,560 Speaker 5: and memorial park. You stated you did not have sex 563 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 5: with her because there was no penetration, and quite frankly, 564 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 5: I think this is quibbling over the details. Because she 565 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 5: did perform oral sex on you in the back of 566 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,959 Speaker 5: the suv. There are discrepancies in the rest of the 567 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:34,520 Speaker 5: interview between what and you describe as having occurred in 568 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 5: the back of the suv. Quite frankly, those details are 569 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 5: irrelevant to proving the overall case. However, given the false 570 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 5: statements you've provided to internal Affairs, I have no reason 571 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 5: to discount any of her recollection of these events. That's 572 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 5: my overall case summary. Lieutenant, do you have any comments 573 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 5: that you want to make. 574 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 9: Yeah, I'm extremely remorseful. I'm extremely ashamed, humiliated, embarrassed, upset. 575 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 9: I'm begging for mercy. I literally was not in my 576 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:15,879 Speaker 9: right mind and I've been going through a hard time 577 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 9: for several years. And I can promise you that nothing 578 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 9: like that wiever ever happen again. I initially light in 579 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:34,760 Speaker 9: the eye interview because I was humiliated, embarrassed, scared. 580 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:36,799 Speaker 2: Didn't I want to. 581 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 9: How this come to fruition and lose everything. 582 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 6: That I have. 583 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 9: I am on bended knee asking for forgiveness. I promise 584 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 9: you that none of this will ever happen again. I 585 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 9: understand that I've shattered your trust. There's something that I 586 00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:07,399 Speaker 9: want to work hard to get back. I apologize for 587 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 9: any of this happening. The last three months have been hell, 588 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 9: and I just am begging for your mercy. 589 00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 5: I'm gonna move to the next section here and just 590 00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:32,040 Speaker 5: talk about my comments and insight regarding this case. This 591 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 5: case is not about the sex or how you meant 592 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 5: these women. Honestly, I don't really care what your preferences 593 00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 5: are unless the PD is somehow brought into this situation. 594 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 5: Has occurred in this case when you sent essentially these 595 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 5: strangers a photograph of yourself in police uniform and use 596 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 5: your work vehicle for your activities. That's what made this 597 00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:58,560 Speaker 5: police issue. The week the allegation was filed, you didn't 598 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 5: need to say anything to me about the case, and 599 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:03,440 Speaker 5: quite honestly, I wish you'd not said anything to me 600 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 5: at all. You literally lied to my face on that 601 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 5: Wednesday afternoon proclaiming your innocence, and unless than twenty minutes 602 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:13,319 Speaker 5: later was texting to tell her there was drama and 603 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,479 Speaker 5: that you deleted everything. Even on Friday, when I tried 604 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 5: to reassure you that I had no reason not to 605 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,440 Speaker 5: believe you and would make sure that this case was 606 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 5: thoroughly investigated, you didn't flinch, even when I threatened to 607 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 5: criminally charge this couple or maybe fire another employee, and 608 00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:37,640 Speaker 5: you later thanked me for believing in you. To me, 609 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 5: this is the most disturbing piece of the entire case. 610 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 5: Even in your interview with IA, as a former investigator yourself, 611 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 5: you lied to Jimmy and rof A, all trying to 612 00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 5: pin this on a third person named You had five 613 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 5: and a half weeks to think about your interview and 614 00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 5: decided to stick with your story and deny that any. 615 00:36:58,800 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 6: Of this occurred. 616 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 5: The fact that you lied, the fact that you're willing 617 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 5: to put this on a third person or possibly even 618 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 5: have charges filed against the complainant, is absolutely horrific and 619 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 5: constitutes a violation of your oath in office. I also 620 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 5: cannot ignore the previous history from the twenty nineteen case. 621 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: Strawsner is referring to the case when a reporter contacted 622 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: the CSPD because Joel was up with the public information 623 00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: officer job. The reporter alleged that Joel had sexually harassed 624 00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:31,560 Speaker 1: her and other reporters. 625 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 5: In twenty nineteen, Commander Mandel wrote, in regard to that incident, 626 00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 5: Lieutenant Kern is a valuable member of the departments, committed 627 00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:41,720 Speaker 5: to putting this behind him and being a better person 628 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 5: and leader for the organization. I have full confidence that 629 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 5: Lieutenant Colone has learned from his mistakes and he will 630 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 5: not place himself or the department in this position again. 631 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 5: I'm hearing some of the same things that were said last. 632 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:55,280 Speaker 6: Time in that case. 633 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 1: Strassner is right back in twenty nineteen, Joel had you 634 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,440 Speaker 1: some of the exact same language. Here's Joel in twenty nineteen, I'm. 635 00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 10: As shaped and uh, I'm embarrassed, and I'm hamiliated, and 636 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 10: again I take four responsibility for my actions and oh yes, 637 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,800 Speaker 10: for mercy. 638 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 5: Not only did you put yourself in that same position, 639 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 5: you made it worse. Someone might make that argument that 640 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 5: you were initially evasive in the IA interview, but that 641 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 5: you rectified it later by telling the truth. I want 642 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 5: to be clear that I do not believe you fully 643 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 5: redeemed your credibility or you were completely transparent. 644 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:42,560 Speaker 2: Even near the end of your interview, you. 645 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,279 Speaker 5: Were specifically asked by Lieutenant Sokolik whether you deleted the WhatsApp, 646 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 5: to which you told them yes. Later, Lieutenant Chansa asked 647 00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,800 Speaker 5: you do you still use WhatsApp currently and you replied 648 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 5: just to talk to I believe the slip up proves 649 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 5: you're still not being completely honest with investigators, that you're 650 00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 5: unable to keep track of all your lives, and quite frankly, 651 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 5: I question how many other women are out there that 652 00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 5: may bring forward allegations in the future. Now, before I 653 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 5: present my findings, I want to address something you stated 654 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:19,839 Speaker 5: during your interview with Lieutenant chans and Sokolik. I said 655 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 5: that you believe you need help and it would be 656 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 5: nice for the department to help you get there. And 657 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 5: you said, quote, we pay a lot of lip service 658 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 5: about our employees as family, and I'd like to maybe 659 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:31,240 Speaker 5: somehow believe in that and recognize I've had issues. 660 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 2: I want to point out a couple of things. In 661 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:35,240 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen. 662 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,400 Speaker 5: You receive nothing more than a written reprimand at a 663 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,080 Speaker 5: time when you might have been able to get more, 664 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,239 Speaker 5: and you said you were already seeking the help. I 665 00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 5: believe this department has treated you more than fair regarding 666 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 5: these previous indiscretions. 667 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 2: I'm not saying that they weren't. 668 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 5: I'm about to go into the findings of the policies. 669 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 5: Did you have anything you wanted to add? 670 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 9: Yeah, I know that the department has been good to me. 671 00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:10,440 Speaker 9: I am sorry that I that this kind of stuff 672 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,440 Speaker 9: happened a second time, but I swear that there is 673 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 9: nobody else I'm willing to do whatever it takes to 674 00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 9: hold on to my employment and to to show that 675 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 9: I can do better. And I apologize from the bottom 676 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:34,840 Speaker 9: of my heart. I understand that it looks bad the 677 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 9: way everything's been discussed here, and again I'm begging for your. 678 00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: Mercy Strassner was unmoved. 679 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 5: Okay, let's go through each of the policies. So as 680 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 5: I go through these, remember the standard as a preponderance 681 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 5: of the evidence. The first one is nine oh six 682 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 5: point three zero. It's the take home vehicles policy. By 683 00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:03,880 Speaker 5: a preponderance of the evidence, your take home vehicle was 684 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 5: inappropriately used. This allegation is sustained. Four hundred point three zero. 685 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: Another big one, conduct unbecoming of a police officer. 686 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:17,400 Speaker 6: That's reasonable. 687 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 5: Believe that using photographs of yourself an official police uniform 688 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,360 Speaker 5: to gain the trust of women you have met on 689 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:25,400 Speaker 5: fet life and then having sex with them in an 690 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,760 Speaker 5: official police vehicle has brought disrepute to the police department. Further, 691 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:32,960 Speaker 5: your false statements to me at the onset were unsolicited 692 00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,359 Speaker 5: and used to paint yourself in the most favorable light 693 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,320 Speaker 5: regarding this investigation. This allegation is sustained. 694 00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: Then Strawsner reached the most egregious of Joel's violations, and the. 695 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 5: Final allegation is four hundred point one to three. Employee 696 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,640 Speaker 5: conduct departing from the truth. Employees will that willfully or 697 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 5: knowingly depart from the truth and giving testimony or in 698 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 5: connection with official duties. You are given a garrity advisement 699 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 5: and signed that in knowing you were being ordered to 700 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 5: tell the truth by a preponderance of the evidence, you 701 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 5: gave a false statement for the first approximate forty minutes 702 00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:10,840 Speaker 5: of the interview. Only when confronted with evidence did you 703 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:14,479 Speaker 5: finally begin to confess some of your role in this case. Yet, 704 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 5: as I said, I still am not sure that you've 705 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 5: told the whole truth. This is sustained as well. This 706 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 5: whole thing has just been like a shock to my conscience. 707 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 6: It really has. 708 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 5: And honestly, I think we've been painted into a corner 709 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 5: where there's really only one outcome. In this case, I 710 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:45,680 Speaker 5: can recommend. I have no option but to recommend your termination. 711 00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,280 Speaker 1: Caroline. It feels like, maybe for the first time, someone 712 00:42:58,320 --> 00:43:03,040 Speaker 1: with authority sees through facade what went through your mind 713 00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:04,759 Speaker 1: when you heard Joel's boss in front of him. 714 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 8: I think it's fascinating to listen to when Strassner says 715 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,239 Speaker 8: and I believe there's more, there's more women. I question 716 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 8: how many other women will come forward, and then hearing 717 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 8: Joel say I swear these were the only two. I 718 00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 8: swear these were the only two, and next thing you know, 719 00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,439 Speaker 8: it's all kinds of different names are being revealed, and 720 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 8: all of these sexual encounters and sexually illicit behavior while 721 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 8: he's under the guise of a police officer. 722 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: Did you ever talk to Strawsner? 723 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 5: I did. 724 00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: What can you tell me about that. 725 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,520 Speaker 8: There's two people who a lot of people will be 726 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 8: shocked that I'm grateful for. The first one is the 727 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 8: male who came to my front door, the husband of 728 00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,600 Speaker 8: the wife who Joel had an affair with. And the 729 00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:55,960 Speaker 8: second one is Jeff Strassner. I'm extremely grateful for Jeff Strassner. 730 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 8: I was at a community event and he was there, 731 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 8: and as we walked out together, I said, hey, Jeff, 732 00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,120 Speaker 8: and I could tell he was nervous to see me, 733 00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 8: and he was like, oh, you know, hey, Caroline, And 734 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 8: I said I'd like to thank you, and he looked shocked, 735 00:44:13,680 --> 00:44:21,880 Speaker 8: and I said, thank you for not believing him. Thank 736 00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:27,359 Speaker 8: you for the due diligence of hearing this one out 737 00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:30,680 Speaker 8: and not giving him the benefit of the doubt. You 738 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,239 Speaker 8: may have saved mine in my kids' lives. Thank you. 739 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,799 Speaker 8: And Jeff's always been a very friendly and a little 740 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 8: bit stoic of a man. But his voice started a 741 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,879 Speaker 8: crack and you could see the emotion on him, and 742 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:50,040 Speaker 8: he said, oh my gosh, thank you for saying that. 743 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 8: I appreciate you saying that. I have thought about you 744 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 8: and the kids so much. So when I hear Jeff 745 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:06,080 Speaker 8: Strassner's commentary in this interview, I'm extremely grateful for him. 746 00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,279 Speaker 8: I know that just hours later is when Joel's going 747 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 8: to do his reveal to me and the kids. So 748 00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 8: it's an interesting thing to reflect back on it and think, yeah, 749 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 8: what that day must have been like in his world. 750 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: So we know that Strassner recommended Joel for termination, but 751 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:39,960 Speaker 1: he wasn't fired, was he No, Joel wasn't fired, and 752 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: this case only gets more interesting. We'll explore how he 753 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:49,800 Speaker 1: was able to avoid termination on the next episode of Betrayal. 754 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:57,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If you 755 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,720 Speaker 1: would like to reach out to the Betrayal team, email 756 00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:03,200 Speaker 1: us a Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal 757 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,759 Speaker 1: Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to 758 00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H. 759 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,319 Speaker 1: Gunning for all Betrayal content news and updates. One way 760 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: to support the series is by subscribing to our show 761 00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,919 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star 762 00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: reviews help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal 763 00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass 764 00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is 765 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,320 Speaker 1: executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is 766 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,720 Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced 767 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: by Kerrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate 768 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 1: producers are Caitlin Golden and Kristin Melcuri. Our iHeart team 769 00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,800 Speaker 1: is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, 770 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,200 Speaker 1: audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, editing by Tanner 771 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: Robbins and thanks to Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme 772 00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by mid 773 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:10,800 Speaker 1: Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, 774 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:14,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.