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Speaker 1: They're happy Thursday, and welcome to another episode of the

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Speaker 1: Chuck Podcast. Yes, I am still on the road. I'm

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Speaker 1: coming to you from Dell Boca Vista. Sorry that was

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Speaker 1: just a little shout out to my Seinfeld friends there

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Speaker 1: I'm coming from. Actually, technically I'm staying in Deerfield Beach,

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Speaker 1: but I just spoke on campus at Florida Atlantic University.

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Speaker 1: I'll be speaking to their Jupiter campus tomorrow. It's been

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Speaker 1: a couple of days at FAU, and I have to

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Speaker 1: just say, it's just it just makes me so happy

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Speaker 1: watching all of these Florida universities grow as successfully as

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Speaker 1: they've grown, you know, being a Floridian and being in

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Speaker 1: the press over the last twenty years. You know, look,

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Speaker 1: we all have our own state pride. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I know people like to rag on Florida man and

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Speaker 1: this or that, and but you know, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in all of you know, I grew

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Speaker 1: up in Miami, and you know, Miami has taken its

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Speaker 1: share of lumps. You know, gets people take pot shots

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Speaker 1: at it. People take pot shots in Florida, but you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're from here, you know, you take pride in it.

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Speaker 1: You know, people like to take pot shots at New York.

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Speaker 1: New Yorkers take pride in New York. Right, people take

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Speaker 1: pot shots at Mississippi. Those that live in Mississippi take

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Speaker 1: a lot of pride and being from Mississippi. And of

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Speaker 1: course what we will say is you don't get to

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Speaker 1: trash our state or city. Only we do on this.

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Speaker 1: But I just I've just marveled at how much how

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Speaker 1: many of these universities have grown. You know, what it

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Speaker 1: was basically, you know, a four university, you know, three universities,

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Speaker 1: you know, dominated everything Miami, Florida, Florida State, and you

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Speaker 1: certainly had you know, the small you know, USF and

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Speaker 1: UCF have been around a while, FAU FIU UWF, but

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Speaker 1: over the last thirty years they've gone from commuter universities,

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Speaker 1: small universities to full fledged just great campuses, beautiful campuses.

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Speaker 1: FAUS got multiple campuses now in the in Palm Beach County.

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Speaker 1: So it's and I'm not just saying nice things because

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Speaker 1: they invited me, but yeah, I'm gonna say nice things

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Speaker 1: because they invited me, but I mean it, uh, and

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Speaker 1: it's you know, what's and what's great about South Florida

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Speaker 1: is that I get political questions about all sorts of

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Speaker 1: regions in the country because the beauty of Florida is

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Speaker 1: everybody's from somewhere else, right, which is always what I

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Speaker 1: always took pride in the fact that I was born

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Speaker 1: and raised uh in Miami, and how unusual that's you know,

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Speaker 1: more and more usual as as as our cities in

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Speaker 1: the area matures and gets older, but certainly a point

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Speaker 1: of pride there. And I'm gonna you know, well, I'll

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Speaker 1: share with you a little bit of the talk I

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Speaker 1: gave to them. But before we get there that we

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Speaker 1: do have, I do want to deal with some of

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Speaker 1: the news. We give you a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: rundown of this episode. I have a great conversation with

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Speaker 1: a journalist and author, Jason Zengerly. He works for The

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Speaker 1: New Yorker. I used to work for the New York

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Speaker 1: Times magazine. Probably you know, if you have read an

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Speaker 1: incredible interesting profile of either a media influencer, political pundit,

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Speaker 1: or politician, if it wasn't written by Mark Leibovich, it

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Speaker 1: was written by Jason's Engerly. I mean, he just really knows.

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Speaker 1: He's does terrific research, terrific questioning, and he's just a

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Speaker 1: really good writer. And he's got a new book that

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Speaker 1: I just adore. The title. I just think it's one

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Speaker 1: of those you're just like, what a great title, because

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Speaker 1: it just grabs you at least you're it makes you

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Speaker 1: curious to at least want to figure. Let me see

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Speaker 1: what this book's about. It's called Hated by all the

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Speaker 1: right people, and it's about Tucker Carlson, But it's more

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Speaker 1: than about Tucker Carlson, right, it's not. It basically is

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Speaker 1: a book that tries to explain how the conservative movement

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Speaker 1: became trumpy and uses the vehicle of Tucker Carlson to

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Speaker 1: do that. Right, Tucker Carlson goes from a you know,

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Speaker 1: at our neo conservative reporter of the Weekly Standard in

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Speaker 1: the nineties to now, you know, he's out there on

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Speaker 1: the edges of ideology of you know, whether he's flirting

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Speaker 1: with white nationalism, flirting with anti Semitism, flirting with isolationism.

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Speaker 1: He is certainly giving voice and seems to enjoy to

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Speaker 1: give voice to anybody or any entity that is perceived

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Speaker 1: to have been ostracized or is being ostracized. That in

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Speaker 1: itself is a choice. He certainly has his following, and look,

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Speaker 1: I've I'm one of those who knew him friendly. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's still in my cell phone. I don't ever delete

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Speaker 1: people out of my cell phone. I remember being surprised

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Speaker 1: one day when I got a call from him, going, oh,

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize we had we had each other's cell

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Speaker 1: phone numbers, which we have had for years. The thing

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Speaker 1: he is is whip smart. He's savvy and is a

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Speaker 1: fascinating figure. I think the question we all have is

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Speaker 1: does he believe anything he says? Is he become a

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Speaker 1: full fledged grifter or does he feel as if he

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Speaker 1: was misled? Which is part of the story, but it's

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Speaker 1: a I think it's an important Yet there's different vehicles,

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Speaker 1: you know. I think, you know, you could. I think

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Speaker 1: this is a good one to do in sort of

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Speaker 1: the conservative influencer media space. Tucker's a pretty good vehicle

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Speaker 1: for that because of the journey he took. I think

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Speaker 1: if you did this with a politician, you do it.

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Speaker 1: I think you might do it with Lindsay Graham or

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Speaker 1: Mark or Rubio. You know, they went from fanatically critical

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Speaker 1: of Trump to you know, Lindsay is the biggest cheerleader

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Speaker 1: in the Senate right. He always wants to be seen

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Speaker 1: as that into this day, Trump still doesn't fully trust him,

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Speaker 1: and nobody's quite sure if Lindsay believes all of that.

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Speaker 1: Then there's Mark Rubio who has made you know, went

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Speaker 1: from making fun of them Donald Trump's Genitalia to be

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Speaker 1: in his chief architect and defender of foreign policy in

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Speaker 1: the second term. I think you could do interesting explorations

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Speaker 1: in a similar vein that Jason did with Tucker. But

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Speaker 1: I think Tucker's are worthy subject and it's certainly a

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Speaker 1: very readable book. Anyway, I think you'll enjoy the conversation,

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Speaker 1: and it's obviously quite relevant in the current situation. We're

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Speaker 1: in a few things I want to get to though,

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Speaker 1: that are little politics of the day. You know, I

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Speaker 1: had hinted in my last podcast that I think that

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Speaker 1: Christy Nome's tenure might be measured in hours, little or days,

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Speaker 1: certainly not weeks or months. She still has a job today.

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Speaker 1: But you know, Donald Trump is a reactive to public opinion.

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Speaker 1: He's reactive to and it is it is interest. Now. Look,

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Speaker 1: there's a fine line with Trump. Right. The more you

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Speaker 1: demand he does something, sometimes the more likely he won't

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Speaker 1: do it right, almost out of defiance. Right, I always

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Speaker 1: say he's he's always thirteen, and you have to sort

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Speaker 1: of in some ways. He's got the emotional IQ of

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Speaker 1: a thirteen year old, and many a thirteen year old

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Speaker 1: or thirteen going on thirty or thirteen going on eight, right,

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Speaker 1: And that can be Donald Trump at all times. Right,

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Speaker 1: You're never sure how serious is he, and you know

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Speaker 1: he'll be kajed and fascinating for a moment in time.

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Speaker 1: You know, my god, he may say something that you

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Speaker 1: agree with, and then he acts like the eight year

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Speaker 1: old right and throws his temper tantrums and all of

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Speaker 1: that stuff. So that said, I still think Christy nomes

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Speaker 1: Day's her number, and there's because she she fits a

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Speaker 1: profile of a person that Trump will dump. Right, he

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Speaker 1: was not devoted that devoted to her in the first place.

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Speaker 1: Check she's got presidential ambitions and it's he's and she's

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Speaker 1: not somebody that Trump uses their parent and if he

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Speaker 1: thinks this helps get her out of the way for

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Speaker 1: whoever comes next in the MAGA movement, check right, here's

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Speaker 1: a box. She's unpopular with pretty much everybody at the moment,

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Speaker 1: Democrats and Republicans, and you know she's she's uh, and

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Speaker 1: it may explain, you know, the easiest way to try

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Speaker 1: to save your job in the Trump airs to say

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Speaker 1: you were just following orders, which is what she let out.

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Speaker 1: The interesting Axios report said, you know, I didn't do

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Speaker 1: her say anything that was essentially directed to me by

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Speaker 1: Stephen referring to Steven Miller or the White House. But

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Speaker 1: she also fits a few other categories of why if

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Speaker 1: someone's going to get fired, it's going to be her,

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Speaker 1: Because number. It ain't ever going to be Steven Miller.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Miller is not blood to Trump, but he might

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Speaker 1: be the closest thing to blood that there is in

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Speaker 1: his political orbit. I think he views Miller as the

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Speaker 1: you know, I've always thought Stephen Miller. You know, on

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Speaker 1: one hand, he's the type of person Trump would make

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Speaker 1: fun of and would mock if Miller wasn't so capable.

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Speaker 1: And that's his secret sauce he's capable. You know. If

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Speaker 1: Miller's as as smart as anybody in that room understands

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Speaker 1: the the byzantine structure of the federal government, he's sort

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Speaker 1: of bizarro. Dick Cheney, right, Dick Cheney was that and

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Speaker 1: you know, which is why. You know, Cheney understood how

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Speaker 1: to use, how to move government, how to work government,

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Speaker 1: what agencies work, how to you know, manipulates, strong work.

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Speaker 1: But the point is is how to make government, how

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Speaker 1: to bend the will of government in a direction that

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Speaker 1: he wanted to bend it. But there was a principle

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Speaker 1: of what Cheney wanted. He certainly had a point of view,

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Speaker 1: he had a vision for the country. You know, Miller's

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Speaker 1: got all of the same skill set that Dick Cheney has,

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Speaker 1: except his motivation seems to be, you know, he seems

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Speaker 1: to be more excited when other people are upset rather

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Speaker 1: than following some sort of larger principle. And that's always

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Speaker 1: something I've never been quite sure of, which is is

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Speaker 1: he at all got a conservative vision or is he

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Speaker 1: just a reactionary? Is he really just driven by owning

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Speaker 1: the Libs? I think he is. I think he genuinely

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Speaker 1: believes that we immigrate to many people into this country.

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Speaker 1: So I think he does genuinely believe in that, and

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Speaker 1: I think he wants to believe that this would somehow

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Speaker 1: improve you know, that it and we'll see on this.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of protectionists and isolationists and

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Speaker 1: nationalists who believe that immigrant labor is what pushes wages

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Speaker 1: down and what would and essentially makes turns working class

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Speaker 1: jobs into low class jobs, and that there would be

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Speaker 1: that fewer immigrants would actually raise the standard of living

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Speaker 1: for working class people. And there's a genuine belief. So

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Speaker 1: I do think he comes at this, comes to this

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Speaker 1: issue specifically with a set of beliefs that he that

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Speaker 1: he and he's trying to implement a policy. But on

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Speaker 1: everything else, you know, I don't quite you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know that. He doesn't strike me as a small

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Speaker 1: government guy. He doesn't strike me as a business guy

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Speaker 1: Republican either, But I'll say this, I mean he's he's

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Speaker 1: he doesn't mislead reporters. You know, he says what he means,

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Speaker 1: and he means what he says. But he hasn't the

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Speaker 1: trust of the president, so he ain't going anywhere. And

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Speaker 1: so the only way Christy Nomes sticks around is if

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Speaker 1: Trump wants her to absorb the negative press, if he

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Speaker 1: if he views her as almost like a shield, a

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Speaker 1: heat shield of some sort. But I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: a heat shield. And I think, like I said, I

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Speaker 1: think the reason the one way she's trying to save

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Speaker 1: her job is by saying, you know, I'm following orders,

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Speaker 1: and the implication being, you know that perhaps she could

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Speaker 1: she could tell a lot of interesting stories about how,

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Speaker 1: you know, what the grand planned is with Miller and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff. But I'm not sure she's credible, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't think, I'm sorry. I think if she gets

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Speaker 1: fired and then she comes out and tries to sort

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Speaker 1: of rehabilitate herself by being, you know, a so called

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Speaker 1: truth teller, I don't know if she'll have credibility. She

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Speaker 1: went out of her way for this performative theatrics, and

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Speaker 1: this is what is on her was the theatrics, and

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Speaker 1: this is and it is. I do think Trump's been

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Speaker 1: convinced that what's unpopular are the tactics, not the policy.

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Speaker 1: Miller's in charge of the policy, gnomes in charge of

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Speaker 1: the tactics. So I'm still thinking's she's more likely to

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Speaker 1: be gone than stay. And the thing that could get her,

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Speaker 1: the thing that could get her are bad poll numbers.

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Speaker 1: And guess what, there is one thing you know, we

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Speaker 1: know that Donald Trump consumes a lot of Fox and

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Speaker 1: one thing that I have always been a fan of

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Speaker 1: is the Fox News poll. It is modeled off of

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Speaker 1: the the NBC poll that I ran for years, that

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Speaker 1: I helped run and run on the NBC side for

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Speaker 1: years in conjunction with my pals Bill mcinturfett Public Opinion

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Speaker 1: Strategies and Jeff Horwitz and uh At and before that

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Speaker 1: Fred Yang and Peter Hart at Garon Hart Yang Research,

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Speaker 1: we believed in always having a bipartisan polling polling team

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Speaker 1: to help put together the questionnaire, examine the samples, and

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Speaker 1: all this stuff, and they would rotate whose call center

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Speaker 1: would use because it was we felt like we were

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Speaker 1: going to get them and have polsters who have been

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Speaker 1: polsters for the presidents or posters for presidential candidates. And

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Speaker 1: one thing Fox has done with their polling unit, which

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Speaker 1: is why Trump lets to trash it all the time,

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Speaker 1: is they've got a very good pair of posters. Not

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Speaker 1: as good as my friends in NBC. I teach you guys,

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Speaker 1: because hey, I'm going to be loyal to my boys.

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Speaker 1: But the Fox News poll is a pulvit I think

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Speaker 1: is a very good poll. And it's like I said,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't you know the poll is bad for Team

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Speaker 1: read if Fox News covers it fox News. If it's

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Speaker 1: if you only find it on foxnews dot com, you

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Speaker 1: know it's a bad poll for Republicans. If you see

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Speaker 1: it plastered all over the cable channel, it's likely a

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Speaker 1: good poll for Republicans. And there will be numbers that

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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you now that my guess is

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Speaker 1: you're not going to hear about on the cable channel,

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Speaker 1: but you might have to read about it on the

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Speaker 1: digital channel. So the point is is that the bottom

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Speaker 1: line is it not surprisingly right Basically, the big headline

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Speaker 1: of this is that Donald Trump starts twenty twenty six

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Speaker 1: with essentially and as bad of a place and about

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Speaker 1: the same spot as Barack Obama started started his second

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Speaker 1: year in his second term and George W. Bush started

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Speaker 1: his second year of his second term. What does that mean? Well,

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Speaker 1: guess what. Twenty oh six, which was the second term

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Speaker 1: midterm for George W. Bush, was a disaster. Twenty fourteen,

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Speaker 1: the second midterm of the second Obama term, was a disaster.

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Speaker 1: And here we are getting ready for a midterm election.

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Speaker 1: percent off. So the foreshadow not to go. He starts

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Speaker 1: with forty four percent. And by the way, Fox News,

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Speaker 1: like the NBC, poll uses registered voters, so you're going

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Speaker 1: to see you know, sometimes you may see why I've

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Speaker 1: seen his job approval rating in the thirties and some

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Speaker 1: other poles, any poles of all Americans, which includes all adults,

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Speaker 1: you know, measured against the senses, not necessarily the voter file.

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Speaker 1: Trump just does worse when all in any samples that

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Speaker 1: include all adults versus when it's just registered voters. As

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Speaker 1: numbers improved slightly. So that's why he's sitting at forty four.

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Speaker 1: Where you've seen some that have him thirty eight, thirty nine.

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Speaker 1: A lot of those are of all adults, not registered voters,

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Speaker 1: So keep that in mind. But let me just share

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Speaker 1: with a few of these numbers, because I think there's

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Speaker 1: a pair of numbers that I do think could doom

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Speaker 1: Christie Nome especially, Let's put it this way, especially if

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Speaker 1: Fox decides to air these numbers quite a bit, right,

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Speaker 1: if they want to make this the you know, the

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Speaker 1: TV team has a choice to make, right, the president's

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Speaker 1: favorite shows have a choice to make, and they could

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Speaker 1: make Christy nomes life miserable. So let me go through

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Speaker 1: the top lines. None of them. There's really only one

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Speaker 1: thing that Trump pulls okay on, and we'll get to it.

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Speaker 1: This is not a good poll and again Fox News

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Speaker 1: poll that could get amplified in the cable channel will see.

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Speaker 1: This is why I want to share so many details

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Speaker 1: here because I'm not convinced you're going to hear a

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Speaker 1: lot about it. Fifty four percent think the country is

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Speaker 1: worse off today than it was a year ago, bet

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Speaker 1: to just thirty one percent says they're better off. It's

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Speaker 1: a twenty three point deficit. Mostly comes from Democrats eighty

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Speaker 1: four percent. In independence, seventy one percent say the country

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Speaker 1: is worse off today than they were a year ago.

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Speaker 1: Among Republicans, only sixty one percent say it's better off.

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Speaker 1: Look the way our polarized environment. Right, if you're a

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Speaker 1: republic if you're a Republican president, and your Republican numbers,

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Speaker 1: no matter what the score is is in the eighties

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Speaker 1: and nineties, you're fine with your base. When it starts

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Speaker 1: to get in the sixties or seventies on questions, it

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Speaker 1: means you've got problems even among members of your own party.

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Speaker 1: So only sixty one percent, right, you have these huge

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Speaker 1: majorities you say we're worse off Democrats, it's not surprising,

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Speaker 1: but the independent number is a big deal at seven.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that only sixty one percent of Republicans

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Speaker 1: are saying we're better off, not a great sign. Here's

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Speaker 1: more on how this economy, and that's the theme of

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Speaker 1: this poll is that nobody likes this economy, and majorities,

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Speaker 1: including Republicans, think the president's not focused enough on the economy.

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Speaker 1: Only twenty five percent of voters say they're better off

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Speaker 1: financially than they were a year ago when Trump first

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Speaker 1: of offense. More than four intents say the administration's economic

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Speaker 1: policies have hurt them. Okay, only about two intens say

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Speaker 1: the president's policies have helped them. Also of notes is

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Speaker 1: how pessimistic voters are right now about the economy. Forty

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Speaker 1: five percent expect the economy to get worse over the

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Speaker 1: next year. Thirty two percent expected to get better. A

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Speaker 1: year ago. There was a lot more optimism about the

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Speaker 1: economy right a year ago, when they're more people would

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Speaker 1: thought the economy was going to get better by two

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Speaker 1: points than worse offt So this is a pretty dramatic

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Speaker 1: shift that you now have nearly half of folks think

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Speaker 1: the economy is going to be worse over the next year,

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Speaker 1: and only thirty two percent say it's going to get better.

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Speaker 1: So the pessimism at the start of this year about

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Speaker 1: the economy not great. Now the good news for the

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Speaker 1: president is if somehow the economy performs better, people will

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Speaker 1: notice and they'll give them a bunch of credit. But

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Speaker 1: the fact that they've already decided this is going to

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Speaker 1: be a bad economy, it could make this an even

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Speaker 1: stickier issue. Every negative economic headline only reinforces this point

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Speaker 1: of view that this economy is getting worse. A few

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Speaker 1: other things on his job rating, so overall, forty four

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Speaker 1: percent approve of the job that has not moved since

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Speaker 1: December eighty five percent of Republicans approved. Ninety seven percent

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Speaker 1: of those that identify with the MAGA movement approve of

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Speaker 1: his job. But his disapproval rating, according to Fox, is

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Speaker 1: near all time highs among white voters fifty four percent,

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Speaker 1: among self described moderates seventy percent, and among independents seventy

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Speaker 1: eight percent. Independence. All right, look, they're not MAGA, right,

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Speaker 1: but they're not liberal. That's a bad that's a tough number.

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Speaker 1: Party that wins independence usually wins the mid terms anyway.

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Speaker 1: And of course, like I said, is right now he's

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Speaker 1: got the same approval rating essentially as both in the

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Speaker 1: Fox Bowl, as both Obama second term Obama did and

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Speaker 1: second term Bush forty three did at this same point

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Speaker 1: in time. But the biggest issue that comes from this

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Speaker 1: poll is that they think Trump is spending too much

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Speaker 1: time on foreign policy and not enough time in the economy, immigration,

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Speaker 1: and border security. Forty seven percent say he's spending too

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Speaker 1: much time on it, thirty five percent say it's about rife,

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Speaker 1: seventeen percent say not enough. On foreign policy, thirty seven

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Speaker 1: percent say he's spending two much time, twenty seven percent

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Speaker 1: say not enough, but thirty five percent say it's about right.

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Speaker 1: And on the economy, only eight percent say he's spending

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Speaker 1: too much time on it, sixty eight percent say he's

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Speaker 1: not spending enough time on the economy. All right, when

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Speaker 1: you're at sixty eight percent, it means that's independence, that's Democrats,

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Speaker 1: and then and that's Republicans. They also did a word cloud.

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Speaker 1: I'm glad they do some word clouds the NBC poll.

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Speaker 1: We started doing word clouds before I left and Trump's

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Speaker 1: top priority of president, They asked what should his top

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Speaker 1: priority be? Well, voters are more likely to say economy

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Speaker 1: or prices, although resigning came near to the top as

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Speaker 1: that was the among the number one things that self

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Speaker 1: described Democrats and many independences say should be Trump's number

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Speaker 1: one task. But after that focus on the economy, everybody

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Speaker 1: said that over both immigration and foreign policy, and overall

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Speaker 1: this contributes to him having a negative job rating pretty

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Speaker 1: much across the board on issues. Right, So he's sitting

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Speaker 1: at forty four percent. And I'm going to get to

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Speaker 1: this point in a minute, which is why I think

427
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: Christy nomes days could be numbered if if Fox chooses

428
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,280
Speaker 1: to make a big deal of this on TV and

429
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 1: he starts to see it. Right, So his overall job

430
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: rating forty four fifty six percent disapprove, okay, on Greenland,

431
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: his approval is just thirty one sixty seven. On inflation,

432
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: it's thirty five sixty five. On tariffs, it's thirty seven

433
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: sixty three disapproved. On Russia sixty two percent disapproving, just

434
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,119
Speaker 1: thirty seven percent. Approved on healthcare thirty eight sixty one.

435
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: You see, these are just terrible numbers, right, His job

436
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: rating is better than all the individual's that gets to

437
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: there are some that are you know, if you make

438
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: people think about specific issues, well, even those that like

439
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 1: him don't like them on this, or don't like them

440
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: on this, or don't like Well, that's what you see here.

441
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: You know, he's only got two issues where his approval

442
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: rating is higher than is overall job rating. His approval

443
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:05,199
Speaker 1: rating is lower on Venezuela, lower on Iran, lower on

444
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,680
Speaker 1: the economy, lower on Ukraine, lower on foreign policy, lower

445
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: on healthcare, Russia, tariffs, inflation, Greenland. Okay, so there's two

446
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: issues which he has a higher job rating than is

447
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: overall rating. It's border security and immigration. But what I

448
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: like what Fox did, and I really advise all polsters

449
00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: to do this is don't put border security and immigration

450
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,239
Speaker 1: in the same bucket. Separate them out. They separate them

451
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: out because on border security, when you say the word border,

452
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: Trump's approval rating on that is fifty two percent. You

453
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: know who's not at the border, Christy No and Ice.

454
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: On immigration, his approval rating is only at forty five

455
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: percent and his disapprovals at fifty five That is all

456
00:28:57,880 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 1: due to Ice. And oh, by the way, they'd ask

457
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 1: some specific Ice questions. Fifty nine percent overall think Ice

458
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 1: has been too aggressive. Ice does not perform well even

459
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: amongst some Trump voters in this In this poll, one

460
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: final question that I think sort of sums up this poll,

461
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: and sort of my guess is is that for some

462
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: of you, it's like, Okay, I'm not alone here, right.

463
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: Fifty five percent of voters say the US position in

464
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 1: the world is worse today than it was a year

465
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 1: ago when Trump took office. Thirty percent think it's better now,

466
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 1: and fifteen percent it's stayed the same. Okay now, Republicans

467
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: fifty nine percent say it's better, and Trump voters fifty

468
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: eight percent say it's better. But that's it, right. And again,

469
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: when Trump's in the fifties or sixties among his supporters

470
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: being that positive on something, and he's not sitting in

471
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: the eighties or nineties or even ice seventies, that's when

472
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: you know this thing is cutting across larger, larger lines.

473
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: So I just want to get one more part of

474
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: this survey because the specific questions on ICE, which I

475
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 1: do think we're going to see quite a bit of

476
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: on this, let me get you some of these details

477
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: on ICE. So majority say ICE's efforts have been too aggressive.

478
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 1: Among all voters, fifty nine percent say it's been too aggressive,

479
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: twenty four percent say it's been about right. Seventeen percent

480
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 1: not aggressive enough. Among Democrats, it's eighty eight percent too aggressive.

481
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: Among independents, it's seventy one percent too aggressive. Among Republicans

482
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: it's twenty seven percent too aggressive. Okay, so this is

483
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: another one of those where he's not in the eighties

484
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: or nineties on something, and that's when you know it's

485
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: a problem. Here's the thing. In July of twenty twenty five,

486
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 1: when they ask these questions about Ice Republicans, you had

487
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: only seventeen percent of Republicans thought it was too aggressive.

488
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: So that's jumped ten points in six months. Obviously, you

489
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 1: might say, well they just asked it after Ice killed

490
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: to American citizens. Yeah, you're going to have some impact there,

491
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 1: even among supposedly core Republican supporters. What's interesting on this

492
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: is they broke it down even further. There are parts

493
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:26,400
Speaker 1: of the president's base who now think, by bigger numbers

494
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,360
Speaker 1: that Ice has been too aggressive. So among Republican women

495
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: it was sixteen percent in July, it's now thirty percent.

496
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 1: Onto the two aggressive numbers. Among Trump voters, seventeen percent

497
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty five was too aggressive. Twenty six percent

498
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,120
Speaker 1: say now it's too aggressive. Among independence and went from

499
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: forty nine to seventy one moderates fifty one to seventy

500
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 1: Whites without a college degree. This is one of the

501
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: key demographic groups in the Trump coalition. Forty one percent

502
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: called it too aggressive. In July twenty twenty five, a

503
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: majority fifty five percent say it's now too aggressive. This

504
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: is why if I were Christino and I turn on

505
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 1: Fox News and I see them constantly showing these bad

506
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 1: poll numbers for ICE. In fact, support for abolishing ICE

507
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: has doubled since twenty eighteen and twenty eighteen, eighteen percent

508
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: favored polishing ICE. Now it's up to thirty six percent.

509
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: It's mostly driven by Democrats, but that number has doubled.

510
00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: ICE's reputation has gotten worse. And whose fault is that? Ultimately,

511
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: I think it's it's the president's policy. It's designed by

512
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: Stephen Miller. But I'm telling you you got to think

513
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 1: about this the way Trump is going to process that.

514
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: He's going to look at this and say, huh, who's

515
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: in charge of ICE? Not me?

516
00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: She is.

517
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: And as anybody has known, you talk to anybody that

518
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: worked with Donald Trump, going all the way back to

519
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: the Trump Organization in nineteen seventy two, and in conjunction

520
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: with a journalistic friend of mine a few years back,

521
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,000
Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time for a big project

522
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: talking to people who were in Trump's inner circle over

523
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 1: the years. You know, you had New York inner circle

524
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 1: in the seventies, you had the New Jersey inner circle,

525
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 1: in the eighties, the TV inter circle, folks in the

526
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: ots and in the nineties. Anyway, here's the pattern. He

527
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: basically got a new inner circle about every six to

528
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 1: eight years, and he always it always ended badly, right,

529
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: there was never there was. In fact, Roger Stone might

530
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: be the only person that was sort of in his

531
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 1: inner circle in the eighties. That's still kind of welcome. Now.

532
00:33:54,880 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 1: Nobody else is right, nobody ever sticks around because Trump's

533
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: never going to take the blame. He will always find

534
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: someone else to blame. And he's done that over the

535
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,399
Speaker 1: years that he ends up alienating his inner circle at

536
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: some point one or the other, or blaming his inner circle.

537
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: And so the pattern is what the pattern is. A

538
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 1: lot of this will be dependent on the tone and

539
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 1: tenor of how Fox reports this poll. I think if

540
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: they report this poll a certain way, Christy nom will

541
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 1: not be DHS Secretary by Monday morning. But if they

542
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 1: bury it, right, if you know, if it doesn't get

543
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: the attention on the cable channel, maybe she survives. But

544
00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:46,240
Speaker 1: I I think here's the other thing. Nom's other problem.

545
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: She is nobody in the nobody in the Republican Senate

546
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: that gives two shits about her, right you know. J

547
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: Powell has supporters in there. There's certain people that maybe

548
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: Trump would like the fire and hasn't because they have

549
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: a constituency, a Republican constituency, either in the House or

550
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 1: the Senate. Christy Nobe has no constituency. That's what makes

551
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: her so vulnerable at this moment. May not happen because

552
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: Trump doesn't like to quote, you know, he doesn't in

553
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: some case don't want to feed the beast. But I

554
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: don't know. I wouldn't uh, I wouldn't answer any calls

555
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: or take any you know. But then again, my guess

556
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: is if it happens, it happens in a truth social post.

557
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: When it does, all right, very quickly, I just want

558
00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: to give you guys a little rundown of what I did.

559
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: I just sort of walk you through my introduction of

560
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: what this speech is. And and hey, if you like

561
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: what you heard, we can we can do more of this.

562
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,879
Speaker 1: But I sort of previewed it this way. I said, look,

563
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't there to give a lecture. This wasn't about

564
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 1: telling you what should be. I wasn't there for a

565
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: therapy session. I wasn't there to do a political rally.

566
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 1: I was there to try to tackle three basic questions,

567
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: where are we right now? How did we get here?

568
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:11,839
Speaker 1: And how do we make sure we don't stay here?

569
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: And I said, I wasn't going to sit here and

570
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: just try to blame all of our problems on one person.

571
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 1: And then I was going to say things weren't simple.

572
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: So I laid it out much of it. You devoted listeners,

573
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: you've heard me on some of these things that you know.

574
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,080
Speaker 1: One of the things that I like to make clear

575
00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: when I have an opportunity with a large audience is

576
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: just sort of, you know, try to give people a

577
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: little bit of a history lesson. And you know, one

578
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,680
Speaker 1: of the big points I like to make is that

579
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: that the era that most of us, especially the people

580
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: that were in that audience and you know they're you know,

581
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 1: my age or older, essentially, is we may have grown

582
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: up in an outlier era of American history and I

583
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: and the point being that our natural state as Americans

584
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,320
Speaker 1: is polarization, that this might be more of a natural

585
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: state rather than an unusual state. Now it feels unusual

586
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: to us because we grew up in this during the

587
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: Cold War. Well, it turns out the Cold War really

588
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: sort of kept us sort of. The Cold War served

589
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: a set of moderating guardrails. You know. One of the

590
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 1: points I make is that, like you know, the two

591
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:36,319
Speaker 1: times during the Cold War that each party went and

592
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: let its base make the presidential nominating decision just massive landslides,

593
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: very Goldwater sixty four, George McGovern seventy two. But those

594
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: two landslides, right by the way, they were landslides against

595
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: people that two presidents that were not beloved at the time,

596
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: neither LBJ or Nixon. But it was more out of

597
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: fear that whoa whoa, whoa gold both Goldwater and McGovern.

598
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: There were enough people who convince, you know, they're going

599
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: to manage the Cold War differently. We're doing okay so far,

600
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, we got it. We can't we can't risk

601
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,480
Speaker 1: we can't risk capitulating to the to the Russians or

602
00:38:20,520 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: picking a fight with either way. You know, Goldwater made

603
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: people think we were more likely to get into a

604
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: war with the Soviets, and government looked like he was

605
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 1: going to capitulate too much of that either way. We

606
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 1: didn't want either one of that. But those two elections

607
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 1: were stuffed in between three of the closest elections of

608
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, sixty sixty eight and seventy six. The

609
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 1: point being is when the parties basically stayed in their

610
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,520
Speaker 1: mainstream and the quote unquote politics stopped at the water's

611
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 1: edge type of mindset that everybody was kind of in

612
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: the same boat. It it kept either party from nominating

613
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 1: anybody from sort of the the minority wing of their party,

614
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: right the nationalist wing with the with the with the Republicans,

615
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,960
Speaker 1: and the progressive or socialist wing of the Democrats. Then

616
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 1: the Cold War ends, and literally within it's it's less

617
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 1: than an election cycle that we get the nationalist wing

618
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: of the of the Republican Party popping back up with

619
00:39:21,640 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 1: the Pat Buchannan election. So it's it. So that's always

620
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: like step one of what I do in these talks

621
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 1: is try to sort of because it's it a line

622
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: share of the audience. You know, grew up very simple,

623
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 1: you know, in the Cold War, and it just our

624
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 1: Cold War. And I think, you know, I've had to

625
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,880
Speaker 1: do this over the last ten years. Is unlearned so

626
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 1: many political so much of the political analysis that I

627
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:53,879
Speaker 1: knew to be true through the prism of the Cold

628
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:58,880
Speaker 1: War mindset or the Cold War influenced electorate. And how

629
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 1: much that's that's change. I mean, six of our first

630
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: seven presidential elections in this century have been decided by

631
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: five points or less. We only had five in the

632
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 1: entire twentieth century, right, which essentially two thirds of that

633
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: century was either a global war, hot war or a

634
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: cold war. But our politics today looks a lot more

635
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: like the nineteenth century, both either pre Civil War or

636
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:38,720
Speaker 1: post Civil war. But it feels very similar. The divides

637
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,440
Speaker 1: are similar, the arguments are similar. Who's an American? Who

638
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 1: gets to be an American? And so it's it's sort

639
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: of I do that because I think, I think it's

640
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 1: I know what it does for me. It helps to

641
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:03,359
Speaker 1: ground me. And like, you know, look, man, we've been

642
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: we've we've been in far worse places. You know, the

643
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 1: voters eventually figure it out. Trust the voters to figure

644
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: this out. And then the other big point I want

645
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,840
Speaker 1: to make is is, you know, we sit here and

646
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: we're so preoccupied with the presidency, and you know, either

647
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,160
Speaker 1: we put too much on the presidency in different ways,

648
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: and it's simply because of the failure of Congress, right,

649
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: I mean, and you know, so the more I the

650
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: more I talk about how broken that essentially Congress is

651
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:42,080
Speaker 1: the is patient zero here, although patient makes it feel

652
00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: like they're victim. Like you know, Congress is at the

653
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: root of all of our biggest complaints about the democracy. Right,

654
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: Why does the democracy feel more distant from voters than

655
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: ever before because the House stopped expanding, Right, it is

656
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,879
Speaker 1: couldn't be further away. Why do we have so much

657
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: gerrymandering and transactionalism because Congress is so factionalized. Every congressional

658
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: district is gerrymandered. You know, everybody is trying to sort

659
00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: of lock in power rather than letting the people's house

660
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: be the people's house. Right. And and then of course,

661
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: in order to keep power, they have tried to punt

662
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: controversial decisions. So Congress doesn't you know, doesn't get involved

663
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: in women's reproductive rights when arguably it should be that

664
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: we should have legislation. It should be codified into law,

665
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,399
Speaker 1: but Congress won't touch it right, so instead it goes

666
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: to the courts. Congress wouldn't desegregate the schools. The courts

667
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 1: had to do it right, and so it Congress's dereliction

668
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 1: of duty has empowered presidents and made the executive branch

669
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,439
Speaker 1: much too powerful than it should be. It is then

670
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 1: forced activists since they can't get any relief from Congress.

671
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 1: They've got They spent a generation going to the courts.

672
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: So what did Congress do to the courts? They politicize

673
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: the courts? Right, Our courts are more politicized today because

674
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: of decisions Congress may to lower the threshold to partisanize

675
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 1: all of our judges. So, you know, I usually have

676
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, I always I'm hopeful, and then I do

677
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 1: my riff on local media, which you've heard me say,

678
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: and how we've sort of forgotten service journalism, and then

679
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, I put my ideas out there of what

680
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,680
Speaker 1: i'd like to see the chain, getting rid of partisan primaries,

681
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: things like that. But the biggest thing is we're not

682
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,200
Speaker 1: going to get out of this, and this was my largerment.

683
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 1: We're not going to get out of this until Congress

684
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: figures realizes it it is. It is Article one in

685
00:43:55,719 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: the Constitution for a reason, and Congress, without having to

686
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 1: add constitutional amendments, if they could do their job, could

687
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: bring some accountability back, whether it's to politicians, to government agencies,

688
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:19,400
Speaker 1: or to corporate boardrooms. You know, if we look, do

689
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 1: we where we need a constitutional amendment is on money

690
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: in politics? Right? If the courts are going to rule

691
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: equate money in speech, then the only way you're going

692
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:33,400
Speaker 1: to be able to put limits is create a constitutional amendment.

693
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:35,919
Speaker 1: So there're gonna be some things we need constitucial movement.

694
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: It may be that we need a constitutional amendment to

695
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 1: force the House of Representatives to be the people's house.

696
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 1: So I think we may need to say no congressional

697
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 1: district can be any bigger than point three percent of

698
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 1: the population, which if you put it right now, that

699
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 1: would put us somewhere about one to four hundred thousand.

700
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 1: So it would double the size of the House. And

701
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: I promise you've double the size of the house. You

702
00:44:56,880 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: no longer have a a electoral college problem. You've minimized

703
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: the gerrymander Problemly know, by the way you may have

704
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: brought the government a bit closer to the people, which

705
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 1: was the intent of the founders. And if you're on

706
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,360
Speaker 1: the conservative side of the island, consider yourself a textualists

707
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:22,359
Speaker 1: or constitutionalists. That should be music to your ears. So

708
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: that's the uh, that's the spirit with which I like

709
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,080
Speaker 1: to do some of these talks when I am invited

710
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: to do it. Do a little bit of news of

711
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: the day and some other things like that, but the

712
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: bigger stuff and ultimately we can't. You know, the other

713
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: message I have is we citizens have our work to do.

714
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,120
Speaker 1: You know, I'm working in the media space to try

715
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: to build a better information ecosystem. Now there's some things

716
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: that we can't fix as journalists, right the tech algorithms,

717
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: things like that. That's what our members of Congress have

718
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 1: to do. But people, it goes back to it. It's like,

719
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: you know, don't hope that some senator is going to

720
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 1: vote to impede convict an impeachment inquiry. Don' want hope

721
00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:07,400
Speaker 1: that impeachment is going to be a magical solution, or

722
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: that the twenty fifth Amendment is going to be the

723
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 1: only way we get out of this. Is you, the voters,

724
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,759
Speaker 1: have to decide to take us out of this look.

725
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 1: The other thing we all have to realize is is

726
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: and you know, one of the things I sometimes we

727
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 1: forget the following and I'm gonna I'm going to leave

728
00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: it here and then get to my interview with Jason

729
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: Zengerly on Tucker Carlson, which I know many of you

730
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: are going to be intrigued about. The voters have been

731
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: sending a primal scream that they want they want better government,

732
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:47,439
Speaker 1: and they want a more responsive government, and they don't

733
00:46:47,480 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: like what they had for a long time. And how

734
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: do we know this Because in back to back presidencies,

735
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: the American electorate did something it had never done before,

736
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 1: and they did it to presidencies in a row. One

737
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 1: was elected a minority to the American presidency. We'd never

738
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:11,840
Speaker 1: done that before. And then the very next new president

739
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: we elect is the single least experienced in government president

740
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: we've ever put into office, no military experience, no public

741
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: service experience whatsoever. Some of the same voters voted for

742
00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: both of them. It was a primal screen we want

743
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:40,959
Speaker 1: a different direction, we want real change. And folks don't

744
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: know They didn't necessarily know what change they wanted. They

745
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 1: just knew their lives sucked and it should be better,

746
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 1: and government needs to do more, and it became and

747
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 1: Trump almost was a primal screen. But I don't think

748
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: we fully appreciate that we did what. You know, you

749
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: may not like what the voters did on one election,

750
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: and you may really like what they did in the other.

751
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 1: It all depends on where you said. But the same

752
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: voters did it on both and the good politicians, the

753
00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: good public servants, and the good members of the press. No,

754
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: voters are always trying to tell us something. Listen to

755
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:31,680
Speaker 1: what they're saying. So we'll see, all right with that.

756
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: I'll sneak in a break when we come back. Jason's

757
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 1: engerly on the book, hated by all the right people.

758
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 1: Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I know from

759
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 1: personal experience. I was sixteen when my father passed away.

760
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: We didn't have any money. He didn't leave us in

761
00:48:54,239 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: the best shape. My mother, single mother, now widow, myself

762
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 1: sixteen trying to figure out how am I going to

763
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 1: pay for college and lo and behold, my dad had

764
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

765
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 1: but it was important at the time, and it's why

766
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,359
Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

767
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 1: know how important that would be in that moment. Well,

768
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you

769
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: about Etho's life. They can provide you with peace of

770
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Speaker 1: mind knowing your family is protected even if the worst

771
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Speaker 1: comes to pass. Ethos is an online platform that makes

772
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Speaker 1: getting life insurance fast and easy, all designed to protect

773
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774
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776
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Speaker 1: can get a quote in as little as ten minutes,

777
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Speaker 1: and you can get same day coverage without ever leaving

778
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Speaker 1: your home. You can get up to three million dollars

779
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780
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Speaker 1: dollars a day that would be billed monthly. As of

781
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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty five, Business Insider named Ethos the number

782
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783
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784
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785
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786
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787
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about it, especially

788
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: if you've got a growing family. So one of the

789
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:31,759
Speaker 1: questions I constantly get here. I think I've shared that

790
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: with you with the audience many a time. And there's

791
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: a lot of ways we can answer the how did

792
00:50:37,040 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 1: we get here? How did we get here as far

793
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: as the Democratic parties concerned, how did we get here

794
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: in the state of media. Then there's the how did

795
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:44,839
Speaker 1: the conservative movement get to a point where it became

796
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: Donald Trump? And what is the conservative and what's even

797
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: the definition of conservative today, which is one of my

798
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: favorite conversations with my friends Jonah Goldberg and Steve Hayes.

799
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: And so in that spirit, my guest today, Jason's Engerly,

800
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,480
Speaker 1: has a new book, look Out that at first Blush

801
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: is going to seem like it's a biography of Tucker Carlson,

802
00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: which it is not, but it is an attempt to

803
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: answer this question. First of all, Jason's with me now,

804
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: and Jason, I have to say I love the title

805
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,240
Speaker 1: of your book. I think the title of your book.

806
00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: You know, it's like titles matter a lot, hated by

807
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: all the right people. Right, which is it does It's

808
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative mind. But

809
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 1: your book is an attempt more at trying to understand it.

810
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,839
Speaker 1: How did conservatism find its way to Trump? Or vice

811
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: versa lesson about Tucker Carlson. But Carlson, your vehicle for

812
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: this conversation is that that I described the book correctly?

813
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think Tucker serves

814
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: as kind of this hopefully you know, compelling vehicle to

815
00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 2: tell the history the last sort of thirty years of

816
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 2: conservative media and conservative politics, because he started in such

817
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 2: a different place from where he's wound up, and I

818
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: think his journey in the various stops along the way,

819
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,440
Speaker 2: you know, kind of reveals a lot about the incentive

820
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 2: structure that exists in both conservative media and conservative politics

821
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 2: that has created the situation we're now in.

822
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,240
Speaker 1: Before I get to the larger issue here, but Tucker Carlson,

823
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:18,479
Speaker 1: the individual, those of us that have had relationships with

824
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: him at different points in time in his professional life,

825
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: you all have the same question what happened to Tucker?

826
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: And I imagine you heard various explanations. How much of

827
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 1: it do you think As you were pursuing this, I

828
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: was having this conversation with my wife. You know, when

829
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: I wrote a biography of Barack Obama, I always one

830
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: of my through line observations, and it just was early

831
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 1: on in my research, was, you know, how the relationship

832
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: his white grandmother had with him and the sort of

833
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,760
Speaker 1: the political lessons he took from her. They weren't necessarily

834
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 1: political lessons, but what he to book and sort of

835
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:03,479
Speaker 1: made him a bit more risk averse and just sort

836
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 1: of navigating two worlds. Richie wrote his own book about it.

837
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 1: But also, you know, but you can't on when you're

838
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: writing about Obama. That's a part of the story Tucker

839
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: Carlson's origin story, I can tell you. Ever since I

840
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:20,319
Speaker 1: read about the abandonment of Tucker by his mother at

841
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: at a young age, it has been I can't unhear that,

842
00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: And it's at the core of everything I get when

843
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,600
Speaker 1: I think about, well, why does Tucker do this that

844
00:53:29,760 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: or the other thing? How much does did that? I

845
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,799
Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is like, how much did the

846
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: personal journeys of Tucker Carlson and the professional journeys. How

847
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: did you sort of both disaggregate that and and messhit

848
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: if you will.

849
00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,640
Speaker 2: And I think I was more interested in the professional

850
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:51,000
Speaker 2: journey than the personal journey.

851
00:53:51,000 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, you.

852
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,160
Speaker 2: Know, if you're doing kind if you were psychoanalyzed Tucker,

853
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,799
Speaker 2: I think his mom leaving at the age of five

854
00:53:58,880 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 2: or six, and.

855
00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: It's the single most important thing to understanding particularly and

856
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to speak for you know, it's an important

857
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 1: explanation for my wife and understanding why he says and

858
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:15,439
Speaker 1: thinks the things he does about women. Yeah, I can.

859
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: I can definitely see that.

860
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,960
Speaker 2: I think there's certainly some truth to that and just

861
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 2: the journey to send him on, and I agree with that.

862
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: I definitely write about it in the book, but it's

863
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 2: not I don't I don't dwell on it too much

864
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 2: because Will Tucker, I think is a really interesting character

865
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: and an interesting person. He's not to me, at least,

866
00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 2: he's not that interesting, you know, Barack Obama world historical

867
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 2: you know, figure Tucker Carlston maybe not so much. So

868
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: I think I wanted to write about him more because

869
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 2: of just the role he's played the institutions. He's been

870
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 2: a part of kind of the larger story he tells,

871
00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: you know, when look if he runs for president in

872
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 2: twenty thirty two, the person writing the book then can

873
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 2: get a little bit more into the details of his mom,

874
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 2: ad and all that. But I do, and it is

875
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,800
Speaker 2: interesting and he is an interesting guy for that reason,

876
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 2: and I do. Then you're right what your wife says. Actually,

877
00:55:07,520 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 2: maybe I should have considered a little bit more. It

878
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 2: probably does have a fair amount to do with his

879
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 2: you know, thoughts about women and gender roles and the like.

880
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:17,759
Speaker 2: But I think that it's it's a more interested kind

881
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 2: of in his relationship with Bill Crystal than I am

882
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 2: in his relationship with his mom, because I think that

883
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 2: in a weird way. I mean, someone once told me

884
00:55:24,160 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 2: that the two most despised figures and most important figures

885
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 2: in Tucker's life are his mom and Bill Crystal. And

886
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: I think sort of his relationship with Bill Crystal, Yeah,

887
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:36,560
Speaker 2: accounts for a lot of what he's doing today as well.

888
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: So his anger at Bill Crystal is it?

889
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 2: Is?

890
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:45,239
Speaker 1: It? Is? It? Is it a personal vendetta? Is it? What?

891
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:45,920
Speaker 1: Do you think?

892
00:55:46,000 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 2: You like?

893
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: You understand it?

894
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 2: Yeah? I do, I think so. I mean, I think

895
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 2: that Tucker has told other people and I think himself

896
00:55:53,719 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 2: this story about his his journey and about his changes,

897
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,479
Speaker 2: and you know, it starts with him as a young,

898
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:03,280
Speaker 2: you know, very good magazine reporter at the Weekly Standard

899
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 2: Bill Crystal, the magazine that Bill Crystal founded, and that

900
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: maybe he was Tucker's first boss. And Tucker was a

901
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 2: fairly you know, run of the mill conventional conservative, maybe

902
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 2: a little libertarian, definitely a contrarian, but was very much

903
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 2: with kind of where the Weekly Standard was in terms

904
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 2: of the things that advocated for, including a very you know,

905
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:29,359
Speaker 2: aggressive foreign policy, and Tucker supported the Iraq war, and

906
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,319
Speaker 2: you know, and to his credit, he was one of

907
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 2: the first conservatives to kind of renounce his support and

908
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 2: recognize it for the catastrophe that it was. But over

909
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 2: the years he's kind of retconned his relationship to The

910
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 2: Standard until Bill Crystal, and he now kind of tells

911
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: this story that he was this young, naive writer who

912
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 2: was used by the neo cons to support the war

913
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,759
Speaker 2: in Iraq, to support free trade deals, to support open borders,

914
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,719
Speaker 2: and that he's now kind of making amends for that.

915
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 2: His his answers today in some way our penance for

916
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 2: what he did earlier, now that he knows better, now

917
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 2: that you know, the scales have fallen away from his eyes,

918
00:57:06,640 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 2: and Crystal just looms so large in that story, and

919
00:57:10,800 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 2: you know, in recording the book and talking to plenty

920
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: of people who Tucker worked with and all that, Like,

921
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 2: I don't think that. I don't think Crystal brainwashed him

922
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 2: into supporting the Iraq war. I don't think Crystal was

923
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:24,439
Speaker 2: this you know, puppet master who was controlling Tucker. I think,

924
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 2: you know, Tucker was capable of reaching his own opinions.

925
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: But I think to come to the critique that he

926
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,920
Speaker 2: has of kind of you know, the political and media lead,

927
00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 2: he kind of needs a stand in, and I think

928
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 2: Crystal has become that for him and just and he

929
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: really he looms very large just in Tucker's psyche and

930
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 2: and in Tucker's own explanations for why he's going to

931
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 2: reach this point.

932
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,920
Speaker 1: Well, look, I think why your book works in trying

933
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: to use Tucker as a vehicle to explaining sort of

934
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: how did how did what people call the Conservative party

935
00:57:58,280 --> 00:58:01,439
Speaker 1: today end up here? And I say that because we're

936
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: so far away from sort of the definition of we're

937
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 1: so far away from the George Will Conservatism, which maybe

938
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:10,560
Speaker 1: I'm being too overly simplistic, but I think that's what

939
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:15,840
Speaker 1: most people, you know, in the eighties and nineties certainly

940
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: viewed that, you know, he was George Will was the

941
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 1: intellectual avatar of conservative right.

942
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 2: He was still like a perky and conservative I mean

943
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 2: sort of you know, trying to.

944
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: Prove and Tucker Carlson with his bow tie and his

945
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,440
Speaker 1: is you know, attempting the nineties to virtue signal who

946
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 1: he was. Was clearly trying to say, Hey, I'm I'm

947
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: a younger version and maybe a cooler version of George Will.

948
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm going to make conservatism cool. But at the same time,

949
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:47,480
Speaker 1: I'm gonna but this is my path. It's funny that

950
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: he like saves his venheoment venom for Crystal when in

951
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: public life it was clear to me he was trying

952
00:58:54,280 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: so hard to be George Will.

953
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean literally the bow tie,

954
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:01,240
Speaker 2: you know, right right out the boat understanding, like yeah,

955
00:59:01,280 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 2: I mean you know, and he got that from watching

956
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 2: Will on the David Prework Show. Yeah, yeah, yeah, No,

957
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 2: he definitely modeled himself and it maybe I mean, you know,

958
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: he's a waspy prep school kid. It might have been

959
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: hard for him to pass as a Jewish Neocon, but yeah,

960
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 2: he used to say he was an Episcopalian Neocon. I

961
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,440
Speaker 2: think he was trying to sort of find this, uh

962
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 2: you know, blend the two together. But yeah, he was

963
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 2: very much, you know, a part of the not just

964
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 2: the conservative establishment, but like the political and media establishment.

965
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:34,840
Speaker 2: I mean he was, he was really he's very much

966
00:59:34,840 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: a creature of Washington, and he knows.

967
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:39,000
Speaker 1: But you know, I will look, I'm going to defend

968
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 1: his outsider credential here a minute. And it goes to

969
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 1: something that I've observed of Gavin Newsom, and I think

970
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 1: Tucker falls into this category. So Tucker was raised a

971
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 1: blue blood. Would you agree with that?

972
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, but in kind of a weird way.

973
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: But yeah, correct. I mean, Gavin news the same thing

974
00:59:57,920 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: you are. You have you don't personally have money. You

975
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: actually your childhood was you know, you didn't have certain

976
01:00:05,920 --> 01:00:08,760
Speaker 1: things that all the other rich kids have, but you

977
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: got the same education as the rich kids. You end

978
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: up at the same camps, you got the same job access,

979
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: college access. So it's like it's such a strange thing.

980
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:20,840
Speaker 1: Like I think Gavin's gonna have a hard time with

981
01:00:20,880 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 1: this when he starts running for president in that he

982
01:00:23,720 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 1: is he is going to you know, he got all

983
01:00:26,080 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 1: the benefits of being wealthy, but except for the money part, right,

984
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: And that was so Tucker was always an outsider, even

985
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: when he was invited on the inside. And I do

986
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:39,760
Speaker 1: think he wore that on his sleeve as a badge

987
01:00:39,800 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: of honor. That was always my sense of him.

988
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, the question of Tucker and money is

989
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:47,960
Speaker 2: an interesting one because look, obviously his mother was an

990
01:00:48,000 --> 01:00:51,920
Speaker 2: heiress the Miller family fortune from California, and then his

991
01:00:51,960 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 2: stepmother is was an heiress, you know, the Swanson family

992
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 2: food frozen food fortune. But it's not clear how much

993
01:00:59,200 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 2: money was left by the time. By the time Tucker

994
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:03,960
Speaker 2: came along. I mean, one his mother I think left

995
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:07,240
Speaker 2: him one dollar in her will, and then his stepmother

996
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:09,280
Speaker 2: I think maybe the family portion had been depleted a

997
01:01:09,320 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 2: little bit.

998
01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: I mean he was not poor though, that's what I mean. No,

999
01:01:12,640 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 1: but he was also not he was not a rich kid,

1000
01:01:16,000 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 1: even though he was raised like a rich kid. Yeah.

1001
01:01:18,440 --> 01:01:21,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think once I mean, putting aside his childhood,

1002
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 2: I think once he got to Washington and once he

1003
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 2: started his professional life there, like he was very much

1004
01:01:26,560 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 2: a member of the club.

1005
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: But he was in a hurry. He was definitely in

1006
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:33,280
Speaker 1: a hurry. He took whatever TV show wanted to put

1007
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: him on right, which is how he ended. Definitely he was, yeah,

1008
01:01:37,080 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: he was.

1009
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 2: He was ambitious, but you know, he would get invited

1010
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 2: to the dinner parties and the cocktail I mean the

1011
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 2: Georgetown cocktail party that everybody sort of you know, makes

1012
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:46,720
Speaker 2: fun of, like I don't know how much does exist,

1013
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 2: but Tucker was. I mean, you look at the people

1014
01:01:50,080 --> 01:01:51,600
Speaker 2: he was friends with. You look at the people whose

1015
01:01:51,640 --> 01:01:53,680
Speaker 2: weddings he went to. I mean you look at like

1016
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 2: the attendance at the launch party for The Daily Caller,

1017
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 2: and it's a it's a it's a list of basically

1018
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:01,480
Speaker 2: all of his enemies today, all the people he you know,

1019
01:02:01,640 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: attacks for being members of legacy media and the political elite.

1020
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,200
Speaker 2: I mean, that was that was the world that he

1021
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 2: lived in. And he actually lived in d C. I mean,

1022
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 2: he wasn't one of these like Colon Powell Republicans out

1023
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:15,120
Speaker 2: in McLean. He was actually in the city he loved.

1024
01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 2: He loved d C. You know he would I mean

1025
01:02:17,800 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 2: I remember him, you know, encouraging people to live there,

1026
01:02:21,240 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 2: which was not something you typically got from you know,

1027
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:27,200
Speaker 2: Conservatives or Republicans in Washington. So I mean he had

1028
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: a very designated role within that world like he was

1029
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 2: I think I think in the book, I say he

1030
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 2: was like he was the invited skunk at the garden party.

1031
01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 2: I mean, people liked him because he was going to

1032
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 2: say something that was outree or you know, you know,

1033
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,840
Speaker 2: not sort of hue to the kind of standard Upper

1034
01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 2: Northwest d C. Liberal line. But they liked him for that.

1035
01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:46,120
Speaker 2: It's like, oh, that's just Tucker, you know, and they're

1036
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:46,520
Speaker 2: kind of like.

1037
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: By the way, you know, who else is described that

1038
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: way in New York City who before he started running

1039
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: for president? Donald Trump? Yes, why did you invite Donald

1040
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:57,240
Speaker 1: Trump to parties? Right? You knew who he was, but

1041
01:02:57,280 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: you kind of wanted that. Well, you know, he'll liven

1042
01:03:00,480 --> 01:03:03,439
Speaker 1: things up and we need a lively dinner party. You're

1043
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: not wrong about that. That's where Tucker and Trump I

1044
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: think have a lot in common. Oh yeah, no, I

1045
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: think so.

1046
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,760
Speaker 2: And I think just the they're populism kind of playing

1047
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 2: this role of you know, class trader like they don't.

1048
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:16,240
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, Donald Trump always appears in a suit.

1049
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 2: Tucker still wears his repties and his roleless like they're

1050
01:03:19,480 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 2: not trying. They're not trying, you know, it's not John

1051
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,560
Speaker 2: Kerrey and the Hunting Jacket or anything. They you know,

1052
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:26,640
Speaker 2: they they sort of they have credibility in a way

1053
01:03:26,720 --> 01:03:29,240
Speaker 2: because they're not pretending they're something they're not, and they're

1054
01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 2: able to say I was in the rooms with these people,

1055
01:03:32,120 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 2: I saw what they said about you when you weren't listening,

1056
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: and I'm here to tell you this is what's happening.

1057
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 2: And I think it's a pretty effective stick.

1058
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 1: And yet here's a guy who was texting all these

1059
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 1: terrible things about Donald Trump during January sixth and Election

1060
01:03:44,880 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: Night twenty twenty.

1061
01:03:45,840 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's funny because a lot of people obviously

1062
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:51,960
Speaker 2: come back to those texts, and I think if you

1063
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 2: you know, there's obviously a great difference in what he

1064
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:56,960
Speaker 2: said on air about Donald Trump and what he was

1065
01:03:57,000 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 2: saying in those texts. At the same time, I do

1066
01:03:59,360 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 2: think Tucker was a very His approach to Trump during

1067
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 2: Trump's first presidency was very different from everyone else at Fox.

1068
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 2: I mean, he did not he was not sort of

1069
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:13,040
Speaker 2: the throne sniffer that you know Hannity was or Laura Ingram.

1070
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:18,600
Speaker 2: He clearly supported Trump's political project, but he he he

1071
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:21,880
Speaker 2: kind of kept a certain distance from him personally. He

1072
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:24,920
Speaker 2: didn't engage in as much cull to personality stuff, but

1073
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:27,000
Speaker 2: the end of his presidency, like even on air, he

1074
01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 2: was he was pretty critical of Trump. I mean during COVID, during.

1075
01:04:30,280 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: The no that. That was always what made Tucker a

1076
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:39,560
Speaker 1: compelling It was a TV show, Yeah, Hannity, Hannity was predictable.

1077
01:04:40,800 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 1: Tucker was more like O'Reilly. Like O'Reilly. What made O'Reilly

1078
01:04:44,120 --> 01:04:46,480
Speaker 1: more interesting than Hannity. You don't always know where he

1079
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: was going to come down. Yeah, you know, yeah, you

1080
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 1: know what he's going to do or see.

1081
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 2: And I think Tucker that was sort of the way

1082
01:04:55,640 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 2: I think he dealt with Trump off air too. You know,

1083
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 2: Hannity was the you know, the shat you're.

1084
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 1: Doing great, mister president.

1085
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and really wanted to be involved and everything.

1086
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,160
Speaker 2: Loved going to the Oval office, would call Trump all

1087
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 2: the time. You know, Tucker was like famous at Fox

1088
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:13,200
Speaker 2: for letting some of Trump's calls go to voicemail. He

1089
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 2: really he didn't want to be He didn't want to

1090
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 2: be identified too closely with Trump. Hen want to be

1091
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: seen with Trump sometimes he just he was he was

1092
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 2: careful about That's very different than the way he's handling

1093
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: it now, So you know, they're the other aspect to

1094
01:05:27,600 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 2: Tucker that I think for me, the more I think

1095
01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:31,560
Speaker 2: about it and the more I read your book, the

1096
01:05:31,560 --> 01:05:33,520
Speaker 2: more I understand why he has this.

1097
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:39,680
Speaker 1: Some affinity for Trump is that he's even at Fox.

1098
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,600
Speaker 1: When he first you know, he had to do weekend

1099
01:05:41,640 --> 01:05:45,440
Speaker 1: Fox and Friends, right, he was not considered good enough

1100
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:49,080
Speaker 1: for the top slot. I believe he was a third tier. Yeah,

1101
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:52,280
Speaker 1: I believe he did weekend Fox and Friends. As like

1102
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 1: they didn't pay him. They're like he was willing to

1103
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:57,480
Speaker 1: do it for almost nothing because he just wanted to

1104
01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: promote the Daily Caller. Is that is that what.

1105
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,360
Speaker 2: My understanding is when he first got to Fox, it

1106
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:06,040
Speaker 2: was just a standard sort of low paying contributor contract.

1107
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 2: By the time he got the Fox and Friends, you know,

1108
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:10,520
Speaker 2: for full time weekend gig, I think I think it

1109
01:06:10,600 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 2: stepped up in pay, but it was definitely he he

1110
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 2: would have worked at Fox for free, I mean he was.

1111
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 2: He really wanted to both promote the Daily Caller and

1112
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 2: kind of maintain a told in cable news because after

1113
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 2: you know, Fire, after getting washed out at CNN and MSNBC,

1114
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 2: Fox is the only place left.

1115
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:27,120
Speaker 1: And I think he was.

1116
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 2: He was really happy when they took him on, and

1117
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 2: the little morsels they would throw.

1118
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 1: To him, he was happy to have. Well, he to

1119
01:06:34,680 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 1: me is the reminder that Fox is bigger than the

1120
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 1: than the individuals. Does he know that still, because you know,

1121
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: essentially Fox was like, we can put anybody on in

1122
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 1: primetime watch and they were kind of right.

1123
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:52,000
Speaker 2: They were well, they were right about that, like Jesse

1124
01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 2: Waters obviously has you know, fantastic ratings seemingly.

1125
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 1: And who is other than like a mid level producer

1126
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:02,720
Speaker 1: for a Ryley at one point decided on air now that.

1127
01:07:02,720 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 2: And that was always Roger Ayles's theory of the case.

1128
01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 2: I remember that famous line, I could put a dead

1129
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 2: raccoon on the air and I'd get better ratings than

1130
01:07:08,320 --> 01:07:09,080
Speaker 2: I did last year.

1131
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 1: So that was that was definitely the way Fox operated.

1132
01:07:11,760 --> 01:07:14,800
Speaker 2: But I do think the Tucker, in part because his

1133
01:07:15,280 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 2: rise at Fox occurred after Ales left, in a way

1134
01:07:18,920 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 2: he did become bigger than the network. He was allowed

1135
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 2: to get away with things there that I think other

1136
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 2: other stars had not been able to get away with,

1137
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 2: and that was partly because the als was no longer there.

1138
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:32,440
Speaker 2: I think the other big difference is that when he

1139
01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 2: did leave Fox. I think a lot of people assumed

1140
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:39,640
Speaker 2: that he would disappear the same way Bill O'Reilly has disappeared,

1141
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 2: the same way, you know, Glenn Beck kind of has

1142
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:44,240
Speaker 2: Megan Kelly. Based's a little bit back now, but you know,

1143
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:47,200
Speaker 2: they would face kind of a diminishment of their standing,

1144
01:07:47,560 --> 01:07:48,920
Speaker 2: and that really hasn't happened.

1145
01:07:49,680 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 1: He is, you know, I mean, I would.

1146
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 2: Argue he's actually more influential today than he was a

1147
01:07:55,720 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: kind of I think within trying to figure that out

1148
01:07:59,200 --> 01:08:02,959
Speaker 2: within the Trump and administration and I think within kind

1149
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:07,000
Speaker 2: of the MAGA universe. Yeah, I think he's become I

1150
01:08:07,000 --> 01:08:10,400
Speaker 2: think he's become maybe more influential and just as just

1151
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:14,000
Speaker 2: as significant, if not more so, than he was than

1152
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 2: he was when he was at Fox, because I mean,

1153
01:08:17,320 --> 01:08:19,760
Speaker 2: and you can, I mean, look like you probably much

1154
01:08:19,760 --> 01:08:22,000
Speaker 2: better than I do, just the way media is changing.

1155
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 2: I don't think he wanted to get fired from Fox, obviously,

1156
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: and I'm sure he was very upset when it happened.

1157
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,720
Speaker 2: At the same time, it it was almost a mix.

1158
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:31,800
Speaker 2: It was kind of a blessing in disguise because he's

1159
01:08:31,840 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 2: been able to sort of enter into this new world

1160
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:38,240
Speaker 2: that is becoming so important. He's gotten a head start

1161
01:08:38,320 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 2: all the people at Fox Cable News is, you know,

1162
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 2: a dying medium, and he doesn't have to operate with

1163
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:46,719
Speaker 2: any I mean, he had very few guardrails at Fox

1164
01:08:46,760 --> 01:08:48,680
Speaker 2: by the end, but now they're none, and that is

1165
01:08:48,720 --> 01:08:51,200
Speaker 2: actually like a fairly big advantage.

1166
01:08:50,680 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: In this, in this, in this certain moment. No, there's

1167
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:53,400
Speaker 1: no doubt.

1168
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's he couldn't. I mean, he could

1169
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,719
Speaker 2: not have had Nick Fuentez on his show at Fox,

1170
01:08:58,800 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 2: and now he can. I'm not saying that's a good thing,

1171
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:06,840
Speaker 2: but I think it. He has had to learn how

1172
01:09:06,880 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 2: to master the attention economy a lot sooner than I

1173
01:09:10,800 --> 01:09:13,439
Speaker 2: think other people in his you were, in his position,

1174
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:15,439
Speaker 2: have had to figure out. And he's done it in

1175
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 2: such a way that I think he's kind of setting

1176
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:19,240
Speaker 2: himself up for a longer run.

1177
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: com slash Chuck. So do you think he's the natural

1209
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 1: air to Rush now? You know, as we've been all

1210
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:14,600
Speaker 1: trying to figure out that even though play Travis and

1211
01:11:14,640 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 1: Buck Sexon might have the Rush time slot.

1212
01:11:17,400 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, radio is not I mean yeah, yeah, And you know,

1213
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 2: I mean the way Rush kind of had his relationship

1214
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 2: with Reagan and HW Bush and then Bush. I think

1215
01:11:29,960 --> 01:11:33,760
Speaker 2: I think Tucker's relationship with Trump, when I say he's influential,

1216
01:11:34,880 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 2: maybe more influential, I think it's because he has the way,

1217
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:40,599
Speaker 2: the way he has just attached himself to Trump now

1218
01:11:40,680 --> 01:11:43,679
Speaker 2: and his relationship with Vance, which is I think even

1219
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:44,960
Speaker 2: closer than it is.

1220
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:47,639
Speaker 1: With Well he was at that that to me seems

1221
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:50,000
Speaker 1: to be fascinating that that's a real Do you buy

1222
01:11:50,040 --> 01:11:53,240
Speaker 1: that that's real, that that's a real relationship.

1223
01:11:53,280 --> 01:11:55,720
Speaker 2: I think I think it's a genuine relationship, and I

1224
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:59,679
Speaker 2: think that I don't think JD. Vans is vice president

1225
01:11:59,680 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 2: without Tucker. I don't think Jade Vance is Center from

1226
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:06,840
Speaker 2: Ohio without Tucker. I mean the amount of airtime that

1227
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:09,880
Speaker 2: Tucker gave him when he was running for Ohio Senate

1228
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 2: on his show, I think, among Ohio primary voters, probably

1229
01:12:14,160 --> 01:12:16,800
Speaker 2: the most important show on television. There's certainly more than

1230
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:20,519
Speaker 2: any local news show. And then, in addition to that,

1231
01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:23,519
Speaker 2: and perhaps even more importantly, the degree to which he

1232
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:27,599
Speaker 2: lobbied Trump during that Senate campaign to endorse JD. Vance,

1233
01:12:27,640 --> 01:12:29,599
Speaker 2: which was something Trump did not want to do because

1234
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 2: jd Vance had said so many bad things about him.

1235
01:12:32,080 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 2: You know, Tucker and Don Junior really put on a

1236
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:37,320
Speaker 2: full court press and got JD. Vans the endorsement at

1237
01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:38,880
Speaker 2: the end of that primary, which and I don't think

1238
01:12:38,920 --> 01:12:42,719
Speaker 2: Jadvance wins that primary without Trump's endorsement. So the degree

1239
01:12:42,760 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 2: to which Tucker played a role in getting Trump's endorsement,

1240
01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 2: which I've been told was a fairly substantial role, that's important.

1241
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 2: And then obviously during the twenty twenty four campaign, when

1242
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 2: there were the deepstakes going on, you know, Tucker was

1243
01:12:53,960 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 2: one of the biggest voices cheerleading for Vance and look

1244
01:12:56,920 --> 01:13:00,320
Speaker 2: like they are so ideologically aligned right now.

1245
01:13:00,360 --> 01:13:01,800
Speaker 1: I think I think you.

1246
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:04,720
Speaker 2: Just look at sort of the issues that Vance focuses on,

1247
01:13:04,800 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: the positions he stakes out, and even just the stories

1248
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 2: he tells like they're they're kind of ripped from the

1249
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 2: Tucker Carlson Show. There's there's a lot of there's I

1250
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 2: think he kind of has molded himself in some ways

1251
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 2: in Tucker's image.

1252
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,360
Speaker 1: Well, it goes to this, you know, there's sort of right,

1253
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:26,439
Speaker 1: there's economic conservatism, religious conservatism, and cultural conservatism, and I

1254
01:13:26,479 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 1: think where Tucker has his biggest influences on sort of

1255
01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 1: shaping what the cultural conservative movement cares about, right, And

1256
01:13:34,040 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 1: it's the whole greet vincent. Yeah, this is why. It's

1257
01:13:37,400 --> 01:13:40,879
Speaker 1: what Rush Limbaugh did best. Rush was not a policy

1258
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:42,519
Speaker 1: want He was not going to tell you how to

1259
01:13:42,560 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 1: come up with an alternative on healthcare to to go

1260
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:50,639
Speaker 1: up against Obama. Right, that that's just not He doesn't

1261
01:13:50,680 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 1: He didn't care about policy. He cared more about his status, right,

1262
01:13:57,200 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 1: and his you know, and and ultimately right, Tucker's personal

1263
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:08,840
Speaker 1: status and the white male grievance sort of right, inter

1264
01:14:09,600 --> 01:14:13,680
Speaker 1: he sort of interlocked and he became this avatar for

1265
01:14:13,760 --> 01:14:17,360
Speaker 1: grievance for white men. Yeah, oh definitely.

1266
01:14:17,400 --> 01:14:20,200
Speaker 2: I mean that, I mean, so much of his persona,

1267
01:14:20,320 --> 01:14:22,759
Speaker 2: so much misappeal is about you know, white grievance, similar

1268
01:14:22,840 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 2: to Trump, similar to Vance.

1269
01:14:24,680 --> 01:14:27,160
Speaker 1: It really is white male grievance. It's not even just

1270
01:14:27,200 --> 01:14:29,680
Speaker 1: white green yeah whatever. Yeah, I think that's right.

1271
01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, and there look like Tucker. I

1272
01:14:31,960 --> 01:14:35,120
Speaker 2: mean in a way that I don't think Rush Limball was.

1273
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,280
Speaker 2: I think Tucker is. I think Tucker is smarter than

1274
01:14:38,320 --> 01:14:40,280
Speaker 2: Rush Limball. I think he I think he has like.

1275
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:45,599
Speaker 1: He's probably reads intellectually a bit more curious that negatively, Like, yeah,

1276
01:14:45,680 --> 01:14:47,760
Speaker 1: I think Rush cared about golfing after he was done

1277
01:14:47,760 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 1: with the show. Where if Tucker is going to read,

1278
01:14:51,040 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 1: you know, it's going to keep reading, like, you.

1279
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:55,040
Speaker 2: Know, got his joke about golfing is. I think when

1280
01:14:55,080 --> 01:14:56,640
Speaker 2: people ask him you do you golf, he says no,

1281
01:14:56,680 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 2: I still like to have sex. So he's not a

1282
01:14:58,360 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 2: big golf fan.

1283
01:14:59,000 --> 01:14:59,639
Speaker 1: We know that much.

1284
01:15:00,360 --> 01:15:02,880
Speaker 2: But Tucker does read. He's got I mean, he does

1285
01:15:02,960 --> 01:15:05,600
Speaker 2: have like a pretty sort of compelling critique of you know,

1286
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:09,680
Speaker 2: consumer capitalism. I mean it's not it's not all that

1287
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 2: dovetails with the grievance, but there there is, you know,

1288
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:13,880
Speaker 2: and I think that's one of the reasons I think

1289
01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 2: why he advanced are you know, so simpatico And they

1290
01:15:16,439 --> 01:15:20,240
Speaker 2: both are smart guys who read a lot, who have

1291
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:24,720
Speaker 2: sort of a more textured understanding of these things than say,

1292
01:15:24,720 --> 01:15:26,200
Speaker 2: like Donald Trump is just going to be at this

1293
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:31,160
Speaker 2: lizard brain populism that Tucker advance or a slightly more theory.

1294
01:15:31,160 --> 01:15:33,519
Speaker 1: Because Tucker want to solve the problem. I get this

1295
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: sense you didn't think he does.

1296
01:15:36,160 --> 01:15:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you know, the problem in some ways

1297
01:15:38,040 --> 01:15:41,360
Speaker 2: is what feeds his success, right I mean so yeah,

1298
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:44,040
Speaker 2: I mean I I think if you could at the

1299
01:15:44,120 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 2: end of the day, if you could sort of just say,

1300
01:15:45,479 --> 01:15:47,280
Speaker 2: all right, we the United States can go back to

1301
01:15:47,320 --> 01:15:50,559
Speaker 2: the nineteen fifties and you know what everything that that means,

1302
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:53,080
Speaker 2: and maybe you won't be on your you know, your

1303
01:15:53,080 --> 01:15:55,640
Speaker 2: podcast anymore. I guess as he would take that, you

1304
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 2: would take that sort of trade. I mean, I do

1305
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:00,840
Speaker 2: think that he has like a very at this point

1306
01:16:00,920 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 2: sincere vision of what he wants the country to be.

1307
01:16:03,720 --> 01:16:06,440
Speaker 1: I don't think he's just saying the things he's saying.

1308
01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:08,920
Speaker 2: Purely for ratings, I think and I don't think he

1309
01:16:09,000 --> 01:16:11,639
Speaker 2: just wants to be a podcaster. I think that he

1310
01:16:11,720 --> 01:16:15,639
Speaker 2: has a larger a larger project, and larger ambitions than.

1311
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:17,960
Speaker 1: What is that? What is I mean? You know, he

1312
01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:21,040
Speaker 1: also started a tobacco company. I mean, you know, does

1313
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:22,280
Speaker 1: he oh yeah.

1314
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:27,120
Speaker 2: Everything else too, right, Yeah, he wants the he wants

1315
01:16:27,120 --> 01:16:29,400
Speaker 2: the manosphere to run things. No, but he I think,

1316
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:31,720
Speaker 2: you know, he he has you know a real sort

1317
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 2: of preference for traditional gender roles and restricted rights for

1318
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 2: you know, gay people, and and a country that's a

1319
01:16:38,000 --> 01:16:41,040
Speaker 2: lot wider than it is today, you know, filled with

1320
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:46,320
Speaker 2: legacy Americans or heritage Americans. I I think that he,

1321
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:49,120
Speaker 2: you know, that that's something that he wants, and I

1322
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:53,440
Speaker 2: think he hopes that the elected officials that he supports,

1323
01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:55,639
Speaker 2: you know, make that happen. And I think that uh,

1324
01:16:55,920 --> 01:16:58,600
Speaker 2: you know, in in in Trump and especially advanced at

1325
01:16:58,640 --> 01:16:59,599
Speaker 2: least advance right now.

1326
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:02,840
Speaker 1: I think those those are pretty good vehicles for that. Actually,

1327
01:17:02,880 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 1: the more I cycled through my brain, Pat he's more

1328
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 1: Pat Buchanan than Rush Limbo.

1329
01:17:07,280 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think Buchanan's a really important figure.

1330
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:13,920
Speaker 1: And yet he was probably very critical of Buchanan in

1331
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 1: the nineties I'm sure he didn't. Music.

1332
01:17:15,920 --> 01:17:17,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, look, it's like the Weekly Standards

1333
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 2: mission in the nineteen nineties was to like read Pat

1334
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 2: Buchanan out of the conservative movement. But and I think

1335
01:17:23,720 --> 01:17:26,280
Speaker 2: this is actually quite sincere on Tucker's part. When he

1336
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:29,960
Speaker 2: saw what happened in Iraq and when he got off

1337
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 2: the bandwagon very early, I think he reassessed all of

1338
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 2: the people who he had been sort of told we

1339
01:17:37,360 --> 01:17:40,840
Speaker 2: were wrong, and Pat Buchanan was first among them, and

1340
01:17:41,000 --> 01:17:42,880
Speaker 2: he started and he basically started to wonder, like what

1341
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:45,080
Speaker 2: else were they? What were they right of? Buchanan was

1342
01:17:45,160 --> 01:17:47,040
Speaker 2: right about Iraq? What else was he right about? And

1343
01:17:47,080 --> 01:17:50,040
Speaker 2: you see, even going back to his MSNBC days, he

1344
01:17:50,160 --> 01:17:52,920
Speaker 2: was pretty he really shifted on immigration early, Like he

1345
01:17:53,000 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 2: was talking about building a border wall, you know, back

1346
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:57,960
Speaker 2: when he was on MSNBC, like he in Buchanan and

1347
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:00,519
Speaker 2: Rachel Maddow would debate about it, and he and Buchanan

1348
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:02,200
Speaker 2: would be talking about building the wall, and that of

1349
01:18:02,200 --> 01:18:05,040
Speaker 2: course would be against it. I think that I think

1350
01:18:05,160 --> 01:18:08,280
Speaker 2: that the Iraq experience for him really was, you know,

1351
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 2: a pretty pretty important inflection point and kind of changing

1352
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:15,680
Speaker 2: his his ideological uh, you know, just trajectory did he.

1353
01:18:16,080 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 1: Is that You know, it's funny that he blames Bill

1354
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: Crystal for this, but it was the Bush administration that

1355
01:18:20,720 --> 01:18:26,360
Speaker 1: really used and abused reporters who were more than the

1356
01:18:26,400 --> 01:18:27,160
Speaker 1: Bush administration.

1357
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:30,040
Speaker 2: I mean, his best friend, the guy who now runs

1358
01:18:30,120 --> 01:18:33,799
Speaker 2: his media company with him, Neil Tatel, was Scooter Libby's

1359
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:37,840
Speaker 2: chief of staff. He was in Dick Cheney's office. And yeah,

1360
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:39,800
Speaker 2: the degree to which he blames Bill Crystal and not

1361
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:42,040
Speaker 2: Neil t Tell makes me think that there's a little

1362
01:18:42,080 --> 01:18:42,960
Speaker 2: bit more going on there.

1363
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:46,559
Speaker 1: Well, is that the root of his anti Semitism that

1364
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 1: he seems to be flirting with right now is that

1365
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:52,360
Speaker 1: is it all he's angry at Bill and Bill Jewish?

1366
01:18:52,520 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 2: This is a theory that people who know him well

1367
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 2: have you know, offered to me that that it was

1368
01:19:00,040 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 2: Crystal and then just you know, beyond that that basically

1369
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 2: all the people he really disagreed with and who were

1370
01:19:04,920 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 2: attacking him were Jewish neocons, and therefore a way that

1371
01:19:08,280 --> 01:19:11,639
Speaker 2: he could needle them was to criticize Israel, and that

1372
01:19:11,720 --> 01:19:15,759
Speaker 2: was sort of where it started. I don't think people

1373
01:19:15,960 --> 01:19:18,880
Speaker 2: necessarily think that's what's driving it. Now that it is

1374
01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:21,559
Speaker 2: blossomed into something else.

1375
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:23,320
Speaker 1: I'm old enough to remember when you had guys like

1376
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:27,800
Speaker 1: Bob Novak and Pat Buchanan who were were openly critical

1377
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:33,720
Speaker 1: of of unilateral of sort of blind support for Israel militarily.

1378
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:37,760
Speaker 1: They were, you know, and they were definitely in the

1379
01:19:37,760 --> 01:19:42,000
Speaker 1: minority in their party, but it wasn't like, you know,

1380
01:19:42,040 --> 01:19:44,840
Speaker 1: it's funny how we've allowed, you know, support for Israel

1381
01:19:44,880 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 1: to become this litmus test on anti Semitism when there

1382
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:50,240
Speaker 1: used to be a bit more diversity in both parties

1383
01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:52,480
Speaker 1: on this issue. Yeah.

1384
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, although I think I think Buchanan got sort of

1385
01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:57,920
Speaker 2: hit with the anti semitism charged more than Novak did,

1386
01:19:58,400 --> 01:20:03,160
Speaker 2: although guess Novak got it a little bit too. Tucker. Yeah,

1387
01:20:03,200 --> 01:20:08,040
Speaker 2: the way Tucker talks about Israel now, it's I think

1388
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:10,519
Speaker 2: he goes even further sometimes than where And this is.

1389
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:12,400
Speaker 1: Where I don't think he believes half of what he says,

1390
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:15,599
Speaker 1: but he's looking for the reaction. And I guess this

1391
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 1: is that to me, this is the thing that you

1392
01:20:17,840 --> 01:20:19,880
Speaker 1: leave unresolved, and I am I would have done the

1393
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:22,719
Speaker 1: same thing, which is what does he believe?

1394
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:27,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I look, it's impossible to know. I think what

1395
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,280
Speaker 2: he believes, and I think you see this, and this

1396
01:20:29,320 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 2: is a real through line through conservative media is he

1397
01:20:31,840 --> 01:20:34,240
Speaker 2: does not want to be out of step with the audience.

1398
01:20:34,320 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 2: And you saw this, you know clearly in the texts

1399
01:20:36,360 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 2: the Fox News texts during the dominion that came out

1400
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:41,320
Speaker 2: during the dominion lawsuit. You know, the way they're dealing

1401
01:20:41,360 --> 01:20:43,839
Speaker 2: with January sixth, and they're all terrified of their audience.

1402
01:20:44,280 --> 01:20:47,800
Speaker 2: And I think today Tucker is making the calculus that

1403
01:20:48,320 --> 01:20:51,599
Speaker 2: the conservative audience and the energy and especially among younger

1404
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 2: people is with critics of Israel with you know, borderline

1405
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,599
Speaker 2: anti Semitic critics of Israel, with neo Nazis like Nick

1406
01:20:59,640 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 2: fuente Is. He thinks that's where things are headed, and

1407
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 2: he wants to make sure he's ahead of that. You know,

1408
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:07,360
Speaker 2: he's skating to where he thinks the fuck is man.

1409
01:21:07,400 --> 01:21:09,959
Speaker 1: I'll just be honest, I guess I'm personally so resentful

1410
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:12,920
Speaker 1: of that kind of process. I mean, especially those of

1411
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:16,120
Speaker 1: us that are trying to build an information first you

1412
01:21:16,160 --> 01:21:19,759
Speaker 1: know ecosystem, right, which is when you let the audience

1413
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,120
Speaker 1: be your managing editor. This is how we go down

1414
01:21:22,160 --> 01:21:24,360
Speaker 1: this Nobody believes anything that they read or see.

1415
01:21:24,840 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think he tried that for a little

1416
01:21:26,560 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 2: bit of a little while to Daily Caller and realized

1417
01:21:28,880 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 2: pretty quickly that that was that was not going to

1418
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:31,560
Speaker 2: be successful.

1419
01:21:31,600 --> 01:21:35,240
Speaker 1: Now, early Daily Caller really wanted to be Yes, it

1420
01:21:35,280 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: was certainly you know, it was going to jab at

1421
01:21:38,840 --> 01:21:41,720
Speaker 1: legacy media whenever it could and play that card. But

1422
01:21:41,760 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 1: they seemed genuinely interested in reporting stories.

1423
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:46,320
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And that was the whole theory of it. It

1424
01:21:46,360 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 2: was going to you know, he gave that speech at

1425
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 2: Sea Pack in two thousand and nine where you know,

1426
01:21:49,840 --> 01:21:52,000
Speaker 2: he said nice things about the New York Times and

1427
01:21:52,040 --> 01:21:54,439
Speaker 2: he had that famous quoting of accuracy. Isn't your goal

1428
01:21:54,479 --> 01:21:57,280
Speaker 2: as a media company, like you have no future, you

1429
01:21:57,320 --> 01:22:00,559
Speaker 2: won't succeed. But I think he realized for early on,

1430
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:03,840
Speaker 2: just by looking at the traffic numbers, that there wasn't

1431
01:22:03,880 --> 01:22:07,400
Speaker 2: an audience for that among conservative media, you know, consertive

1432
01:22:07,439 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 2: media consumers, and he shifted and and he's I think

1433
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 2: that in a lot of ways is the story of

1434
01:22:12,800 --> 01:22:14,880
Speaker 2: you know, the past fifteen years, both for him and

1435
01:22:14,960 --> 01:22:19,320
Speaker 2: for lots of other figures, just wanting to be in

1436
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,919
Speaker 2: sync with what you know, viewers and readers are expecting.

1437
01:22:23,439 --> 01:22:26,760
Speaker 1: Well, So this gets into an unanswerable question but I'm

1438
01:22:26,760 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: gonna ask it anyway, which is what is the definition

1439
01:22:30,479 --> 01:22:33,880
Speaker 1: of conservatism in real America? I e. Those that don't

1440
01:22:34,320 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 1: you know, versus how you and I are defining it

1441
01:22:37,080 --> 01:22:42,320
Speaker 1: maybe by what? But the programs that are geared towards conservatives, right, Like,

1442
01:22:42,400 --> 01:22:46,360
Speaker 1: the programs seem a lot more radical than the conservatives

1443
01:22:46,400 --> 01:22:48,280
Speaker 1: I interact with on a daily basis.

1444
01:22:49,320 --> 01:22:53,439
Speaker 2: I guess it depends on what concern is you're interacting with, right,

1445
01:22:54,000 --> 01:22:57,160
Speaker 2: I mean, he I mean conservatism, you know, it's it's

1446
01:22:57,160 --> 01:23:01,479
Speaker 2: not recognizable what it was pre Trump. And you know,

1447
01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:04,960
Speaker 2: I think there are people who are opposed to Trump

1448
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:08,680
Speaker 2: who are trying to maintain kind of they believe that

1449
01:23:08,720 --> 01:23:11,000
Speaker 2: there's a future or there is a conservative movement that's

1450
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:12,840
Speaker 2: independent of Trump. And you know, you see that at

1451
01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:15,240
Speaker 2: like you know, like you mentioned I think by Jonah

1452
01:23:15,320 --> 01:23:16,599
Speaker 2: Goldberg and Steve Payce earlier.

1453
01:23:16,720 --> 01:23:18,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Dispatch, what they were trying, what they're trying

1454
01:23:18,800 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 1: to build back, you know, And.

1455
01:23:19,560 --> 01:23:21,320
Speaker 2: That's what I think Crystal was trying to do for

1456
01:23:21,360 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 2: a little while. Though he's not really trying to do

1457
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:25,240
Speaker 2: that anymore. He's he might as well be a liberal

1458
01:23:25,280 --> 01:23:29,680
Speaker 2: at this point. But I think that that's that's a

1459
01:23:29,760 --> 01:23:33,960
Speaker 2: vanishingly small number of people. And you know, conservatism has

1460
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:36,519
Speaker 2: been subsumed by Trump. And I think I think for

1461
01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:39,080
Speaker 2: people like Tucker and people like jd. Vance, I think

1462
01:23:39,120 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 2: the question is can that exist independent of Trump or

1463
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:46,960
Speaker 2: after Trump? I think they have a real ideological vision

1464
01:23:47,280 --> 01:23:53,160
Speaker 2: of a conservatism that is obviously very populist. Is you know,

1465
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:55,720
Speaker 2: nativist is a sort of a blood and soil conservatism

1466
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:58,840
Speaker 2: most a returned to you like a Taftian kind of conservatism.

1467
01:23:59,160 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you brought up taff because it actually

1468
01:24:02,439 --> 01:24:04,559
Speaker 1: is part of my next foot and so I just happened.

1469
01:24:06,320 --> 01:24:09,200
Speaker 1: You know, these interviews are going to air at different times,

1470
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:12,200
Speaker 1: but I had an interview earlier that I think is

1471
01:24:12,200 --> 01:24:14,640
Speaker 1: actually going to air after this one airs. So my

1472
01:24:14,680 --> 01:24:18,040
Speaker 1: apologies to my audience about It's a book about Teddy Roosevelt.

1473
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:22,519
Speaker 1: And what's interesting about Teddy, right is the fact that

1474
01:24:22,720 --> 01:24:25,800
Speaker 1: he was sort of an outlier in the concern in

1475
01:24:25,880 --> 01:24:29,400
Speaker 1: the Republican Party when he was named vice president. He

1476
01:24:29,560 --> 01:24:32,880
Speaker 1: was popular as president, so the party accepted him, and

1477
01:24:32,920 --> 01:24:35,680
Speaker 1: the second he left the party, they went back to

1478
01:24:35,720 --> 01:24:40,080
Speaker 1: who they were. And I've been thinking about this with

1479
01:24:40,160 --> 01:24:45,839
Speaker 1: Donald Trump, right, which is Trump is arguably the larger,

1480
01:24:46,400 --> 01:24:49,360
Speaker 1: a larger in life figure that the party hasn't really had. Yeah,

1481
01:24:49,400 --> 01:24:53,200
Speaker 1: you might argue Eisenhower considering the role he played in

1482
01:24:53,200 --> 01:24:56,920
Speaker 1: saving the free world. But really since Teddy, and there's

1483
01:24:56,920 --> 01:24:59,840
Speaker 1: always been this question, has Trump changed the conservative movement forever?

1484
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:05,639
Speaker 1: Will conservatism go back? Well after Teddy it actually went

1485
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:12,520
Speaker 1: back to the pre Teddy conservatism. We're all assuming this won't.

1486
01:25:12,840 --> 01:25:15,840
Speaker 1: Why are we all so sure? I think that's the

1487
01:25:16,680 --> 01:25:19,960
Speaker 1: you know, the key question. And I'm and when you

1488
01:25:20,000 --> 01:25:22,400
Speaker 1: say all of those I don't know, I actually don't know.

1489
01:25:22,439 --> 01:25:24,080
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know either when I say

1490
01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:26,120
Speaker 1: those of us that do this for a living right,

1491
01:25:26,160 --> 01:25:28,880
Speaker 1: we're trying to, you know, in our own ways, trying

1492
01:25:28,880 --> 01:25:31,599
Speaker 1: to figure out where are we, how do we get here,

1493
01:25:31,640 --> 01:25:34,600
Speaker 1: and where are we going next? Right in general, and

1494
01:25:34,680 --> 01:25:38,080
Speaker 1: with the conservative movement, you know, I mean, first I

1495
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:40,519
Speaker 1: want to define what the hell is conservatism right now?

1496
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:42,280
Speaker 1: And what is it going to be in five years?

1497
01:25:42,400 --> 01:25:42,519
Speaker 2: Right?

1498
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1499
01:25:43,640 --> 01:25:45,360
Speaker 2: No, I think it's a real question. Is is it

1500
01:25:45,400 --> 01:25:47,840
Speaker 2: just a cult of personality around Trump? Or are there

1501
01:25:48,000 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 2: are there people out there who they believe in Trump

1502
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:55,639
Speaker 2: but they also believe in you know this this harsh

1503
01:25:55,680 --> 01:25:59,080
Speaker 2: immigration policy and the tariffs and all these other things

1504
01:25:59,080 --> 01:26:01,400
Speaker 2: that have come along with Trump, so that if someone

1505
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:04,519
Speaker 2: who isn't Donald Trump is you know, supporting those things,

1506
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:07,519
Speaker 2: they would support them. And I think that people like Tucker,

1507
01:26:07,640 --> 01:26:10,400
Speaker 2: you know, people like Steve Bannon to a degree, people

1508
01:26:10,439 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 2: like JD. Vance like they're they're thinking the latter. They

1509
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,920
Speaker 2: think it's about it's about the policy issues and the

1510
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:20,680
Speaker 2: political positions, and they're they they think that there's like

1511
01:26:20,760 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 2: a coherence to to trump Ism and to magism that

1512
01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:27,960
Speaker 2: extends beyond the person. I mean, obviously, Donald Trump is

1513
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:30,639
Speaker 2: you know, a singular figure and a very magnetic figure

1514
01:26:30,680 --> 01:26:32,640
Speaker 2: for a lot of people. But but I think that

1515
01:26:33,000 --> 01:26:35,840
Speaker 2: there are people like Tucker who think that it's also

1516
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,439
Speaker 2: what Trump is, you know, what he's saying about the issues,

1517
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:40,720
Speaker 2: and therefore, you know, there's there's going to.

1518
01:26:40,720 --> 01:26:41,639
Speaker 1: Be some staying power.

1519
01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:44,599
Speaker 2: I think, you know, they also recognize, people like Tucker

1520
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 2: that they do understand Trump's magnetism, they understand his charisma,

1521
01:26:49,000 --> 01:26:51,560
Speaker 2: they understand his you his ability to entertain. And I

1522
01:26:51,600 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 2: think that's always been that's been a real question about

1523
01:26:54,320 --> 01:26:57,640
Speaker 2: whoever comes after Trump. So much of Trump's success is

1524
01:26:57,800 --> 01:27:01,560
Speaker 2: you know, predicated on that that capacity he has. I

1525
01:27:01,560 --> 01:27:03,760
Speaker 2: don't think jd Vance can do that. I actually do

1526
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:07,599
Speaker 2: think Tucker can. I mean, he is an entertainer if

1527
01:27:07,640 --> 01:27:11,080
Speaker 2: nothing else, And I think that, you know, when you

1528
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:14,400
Speaker 2: think about who could kind of try to who could

1529
01:27:14,400 --> 01:27:18,240
Speaker 2: succeed someone like Trump and keep those those kind of

1530
01:27:18,240 --> 01:27:21,200
Speaker 2: policies alive, in those arguments alive, and also just be

1531
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:24,720
Speaker 2: a compelling figure for people. I think Tucker, to me

1532
01:27:24,760 --> 01:27:26,960
Speaker 2: at least strikes he seems like someone who could do that.

1533
01:27:28,439 --> 01:27:30,720
Speaker 1: Do you think you know, one of the things one

1534
01:27:30,760 --> 01:27:33,200
Speaker 1: of the things I've observed about Trump over the years

1535
01:27:33,240 --> 01:27:36,439
Speaker 1: is how many people claw their way into his orbit,

1536
01:27:36,560 --> 01:27:41,200
Speaker 1: thinking they can manipulate him. And they do it for

1537
01:27:41,200 --> 01:27:44,639
Speaker 1: a little bit. Yeah, and eventually the t Rex bites

1538
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:46,479
Speaker 1: their head off, right, and they figure out, you know,

1539
01:27:46,760 --> 01:27:49,760
Speaker 1: people try to griff Trump and Trump, you know, you

1540
01:27:49,880 --> 01:27:53,120
Speaker 1: might be smarter than him in the moment, but he'll

1541
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:56,800
Speaker 1: eventually be smarter than you in the long run. Is

1542
01:27:56,800 --> 01:27:59,679
Speaker 1: Trump using Carlson or is Carlson using Trump?

1543
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:01,680
Speaker 2: I think they're using each other. I think that's why

1544
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:03,040
Speaker 2: it's actually been kind of as successful.

1545
01:28:03,040 --> 01:28:06,360
Speaker 1: Rely they know, I think that's why they know what

1546
01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:09,840
Speaker 1: they each know what the others doing, and yes, it's

1547
01:28:09,880 --> 01:28:10,519
Speaker 1: why it works.

1548
01:28:10,800 --> 01:28:12,640
Speaker 2: And yeah, and I think there's a fair amount of

1549
01:28:12,640 --> 01:28:16,160
Speaker 2: like kind of transparency and honesty there. I do think

1550
01:28:16,200 --> 01:28:18,679
Speaker 2: they enjoy each other personally as far as I can

1551
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:20,439
Speaker 2: you know tell from my reporting like that.

1552
01:28:20,560 --> 01:28:23,400
Speaker 1: By the way, they're both very good dinner party people. Yeah, exactly.

1553
01:28:23,600 --> 01:28:28,639
Speaker 1: You you can't be this successful in a public medium

1554
01:28:28,640 --> 01:28:29,320
Speaker 1: without being that.

1555
01:28:29,920 --> 01:28:31,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I think there's like a genuine

1556
01:28:31,960 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 2: kind of that they both get a kick out of

1557
01:28:33,479 --> 01:28:38,400
Speaker 2: each other. And I think that, you know, Trump kind

1558
01:28:38,400 --> 01:28:42,360
Speaker 2: of recognizes what Tucker gives him in terms of sort

1559
01:28:42,360 --> 01:28:46,360
Speaker 2: of you know, support in certain corners of the conservative movement,

1560
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:50,120
Speaker 2: and I think Tucker clearly recognizes what Trump gives him

1561
01:28:50,160 --> 01:28:53,200
Speaker 2: in terms of just relevance. You know, once he was

1562
01:28:53,240 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 2: fired from Fox, he really had to and lost that

1563
01:28:56,240 --> 01:28:58,160
Speaker 2: built in audience. He had to start thinking about what

1564
01:28:58,160 --> 01:29:00,880
Speaker 2: can I do to stay in people's you know, in

1565
01:29:00,920 --> 01:29:03,000
Speaker 2: their heads, I mean, keep their attention to be angry

1566
01:29:03,040 --> 01:29:04,000
Speaker 2: at the Murdocks.

1567
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:06,519
Speaker 1: They feel real yes, yeah.

1568
01:29:06,439 --> 01:29:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he says he's not and he talks

1569
01:29:08,200 --> 01:29:10,280
Speaker 2: about how, you know, Rupert Murdock was like the best

1570
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:12,519
Speaker 2: boss he ever had, but oh, I yes, I think so.

1571
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:14,240
Speaker 2: I think in the same way that Trump is angry

1572
01:29:14,280 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 2: at the Murdocks, I think that I think that was

1573
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 2: actually the basis in a lot of ways for this.

1574
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:21,960
Speaker 2: This second sort of you know, phase of their relationship

1575
01:29:22,040 --> 01:29:25,400
Speaker 2: is when Tucker was fired from Fox and when Trump

1576
01:29:25,560 --> 01:29:28,479
Speaker 2: was trying to restart his political career after January sixth.

1577
01:29:28,520 --> 01:29:31,360
Speaker 2: I mean, Trump was curious at the Murdocks for the

1578
01:29:31,400 --> 01:29:33,599
Speaker 2: way that they tried to disappear him, the way they

1579
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,760
Speaker 2: were supporting DeSantis. Their interests totally aligned. And I mean,

1580
01:29:36,760 --> 01:29:38,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember, but you know the

1581
01:29:38,280 --> 01:29:41,840
Speaker 2: first GOP debate, Fox was carrying, and Fox put on

1582
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:43,920
Speaker 2: a full court press to make sure Trump would show

1583
01:29:43,960 --> 01:29:45,400
Speaker 2: up for it, because the knew the ratings weren't going

1584
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:47,840
Speaker 2: to be good, and Trump kind of strung them along.

1585
01:29:47,840 --> 01:29:49,880
Speaker 2: And all the while he's talking to Tucker and they're

1586
01:29:50,120 --> 01:29:52,439
Speaker 2: plotting to have this you know, sit down interview that

1587
01:29:52,439 --> 01:29:54,160
Speaker 2: they're going to put on X that's going to air

1588
01:29:54,200 --> 01:29:56,440
Speaker 2: at the same time as the debate and be counter programming.

1589
01:29:56,479 --> 01:29:58,639
Speaker 2: I mean they I think they both wanted to stick

1590
01:29:58,680 --> 01:29:59,280
Speaker 2: it to Murdoch.

1591
01:29:59,360 --> 01:30:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you know what Trump, what do you feel like,

1592
01:30:04,040 --> 01:30:06,439
Speaker 1: let me ask this, did you interview Tucker for this book?

1593
01:30:06,920 --> 01:30:09,200
Speaker 2: Not for this book? No, I've interviewed Tucker many times

1594
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:12,280
Speaker 2: over the years. I mean, why didn't you interview him

1595
01:30:12,280 --> 01:30:17,120
Speaker 2: for this book? Because I tried extremely Yeah. No, I

1596
01:30:17,360 --> 01:30:18,800
Speaker 2: mean I'm surprised.

1597
01:30:19,600 --> 01:30:24,800
Speaker 1: Why why do you because he weirdly, you know, I'm

1598
01:30:24,840 --> 01:30:27,280
Speaker 1: surprised he didn't even give you the yeah, I'll sit

1599
01:30:27,320 --> 01:30:28,760
Speaker 1: down with you, even though I don't trust you at

1600
01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:30,280
Speaker 1: all type of mindset.

1601
01:30:30,439 --> 01:30:32,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, Tucker, someone like I first met

1602
01:30:32,640 --> 01:30:34,519
Speaker 2: Tucker when I was an intern at the New Republic

1603
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:36,680
Speaker 2: and he was the Weekly Standard, and I.

1604
01:30:37,360 --> 01:30:40,480
Speaker 1: Felt like brothers sibling. Those always felt like sibling publications

1605
01:30:40,479 --> 01:30:41,480
Speaker 1: in the nineties.

1606
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:42,439
Speaker 2: Right and we all knew the simile.

1607
01:30:43,439 --> 01:30:45,760
Speaker 1: They were both invented this magazines one from the left

1608
01:30:45,760 --> 01:30:46,320
Speaker 1: time for Right.

1609
01:30:48,760 --> 01:30:50,479
Speaker 2: I was not friends with him, but he was definitely

1610
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:52,120
Speaker 2: someone that I knew, and.

1611
01:30:52,120 --> 01:30:54,360
Speaker 1: You were probably friendly, you had no reason enough to

1612
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:56,240
Speaker 1: be friend LYE and I.

1613
01:30:56,160 --> 01:30:58,320
Speaker 2: Had the same relationship with him as I think so

1614
01:30:58,439 --> 01:30:59,560
Speaker 2: many political.

1615
01:30:59,120 --> 01:31:00,920
Speaker 1: Reporters who probably talk to.

1616
01:31:00,840 --> 01:31:03,120
Speaker 2: Talker and he's he would you know, you would text him,

1617
01:31:03,160 --> 01:31:06,040
Speaker 2: he would call you back in five minutes, and and

1618
01:31:06,040 --> 01:31:08,200
Speaker 2: and actually you know, I really enjoyed talking to him,

1619
01:31:08,200 --> 01:31:10,080
Speaker 2: in part because even though he was no longer a

1620
01:31:10,080 --> 01:31:14,599
Speaker 2: magazine writer, he definitely like kind of retained magazine writer

1621
01:31:14,960 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 2: muscle memory, and he was about stories like you would

1622
01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 2: mean almost all you're talking to a colleague, like he

1623
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:23,880
Speaker 2: would just sort he would be interested in what you're doing.

1624
01:31:24,200 --> 01:31:26,080
Speaker 1: By the way we kept talking about him in the past,

1625
01:31:26,080 --> 01:31:29,479
Speaker 1: tense is if is if this because the Tucker I mean,

1626
01:31:29,520 --> 01:31:32,240
Speaker 1: and and maybe that's it is the Tucker Carlson we

1627
01:31:32,320 --> 01:31:33,160
Speaker 1: knew dead or alive.

1628
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 2: I think he's still alive to some people. I think

1629
01:31:36,000 --> 01:31:38,240
Speaker 2: I think the thing would have changed with me and

1630
01:31:38,400 --> 01:31:41,639
Speaker 2: you know him was as soon as he went from

1631
01:31:41,840 --> 01:31:43,920
Speaker 2: I mean, there's that there's that Novak expression. You know,

1632
01:31:43,920 --> 01:31:46,160
Speaker 2: you're either a source or a target. I think when

1633
01:31:46,200 --> 01:31:49,800
Speaker 2: he went from source to target, that's when he no

1634
01:31:49,840 --> 01:31:51,920
Speaker 2: longer wanted to talk and you and he said when

1635
01:31:51,960 --> 01:31:53,400
Speaker 2: when I first approached him out the book, he was,

1636
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:54,679
Speaker 2: you know, I'd love to talk to you.

1637
01:31:54,680 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 1: You know, this is great.

1638
01:31:55,840 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 2: And then you know, and then but I'm not sure

1639
01:31:57,160 --> 01:31:59,360
Speaker 2: if Fox will let me and sort of we had a.

1640
01:31:59,240 --> 01:32:01,320
Speaker 1: Long you know, but so you've been doing this since

1641
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:04,559
Speaker 1: he was at Fox. Oh yeah, I start yeah, oh wow,

1642
01:32:04,640 --> 01:32:06,680
Speaker 1: this is always important. Yeah wow. So when did you

1643
01:32:06,720 --> 01:32:10,040
Speaker 1: first start this book and how much does it change? Yeah?

1644
01:32:10,080 --> 01:32:13,680
Speaker 2: So I started it in twenty twenty one. Okay, I'm

1645
01:32:13,720 --> 01:32:16,840
Speaker 2: not proud of that. It it took me.

1646
01:32:17,320 --> 01:32:18,840
Speaker 1: I did it too, I did it took me six

1647
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 1: years to fulfill it to your book contract.

1648
01:32:20,439 --> 01:32:22,439
Speaker 2: So okay, yeah, so I think we're on the same timeline.

1649
01:32:23,320 --> 01:32:23,559
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1650
01:32:23,640 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 2: So I started it in twenty one, and you know,

1651
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:29,000
Speaker 2: and his and ultimately he said he couldn't talk to

1652
01:32:29,000 --> 01:32:30,640
Speaker 2: me because Fox wouldn't let him, even though I really

1653
01:32:30,680 --> 01:32:34,040
Speaker 2: wanted to. And then after he was fired, I went

1654
01:32:34,160 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 2: to him and was like, hey, you know, you can

1655
01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:37,759
Speaker 2: talk now. And then he didn't even you know, respond

1656
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:40,720
Speaker 2: to that. So I think he just made the calculus

1657
01:32:40,760 --> 01:32:43,519
Speaker 2: that you know, it would probably be easier to attack

1658
01:32:43,600 --> 01:32:45,880
Speaker 2: it or dismiss it if he didn't cooperate at all.

1659
01:32:46,600 --> 01:32:50,200
Speaker 2: But he I think he still talks to plenty of reporters.

1660
01:32:50,960 --> 01:32:54,440
Speaker 2: I know, I hear about this all the time. Yeah.

1661
01:32:54,880 --> 01:32:57,080
Speaker 2: Ben Smith wrote a piece back and that you know,

1662
01:32:57,080 --> 01:32:58,479
Speaker 2: I don't know, four or five years ago in the

1663
01:32:58,520 --> 01:33:01,599
Speaker 2: Times about you know, sort of Tucker bashes the medium.

1664
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:11,000
Speaker 1: But he's also like their favorite source. You know, I

1665
01:33:11,560 --> 01:33:14,599
Speaker 1: sort of personally character assassinated me on one of his segments.

1666
01:33:14,680 --> 01:33:16,960
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, I'm out. You know, I was

1667
01:33:17,000 --> 01:33:19,960
Speaker 1: done with him, and you know, he was just attacking

1668
01:33:20,000 --> 01:33:22,439
Speaker 1: my employer. But he decided to use me as the vehicle,

1669
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:26,880
Speaker 1: which is just like you know, was typical of that era, right,

1670
01:33:27,360 --> 01:33:31,240
Speaker 1: what cable news was. And I just found it to

1671
01:33:31,320 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 1: be unseemly by him, and I made that clear to him,

1672
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:37,599
Speaker 1: and he just used it all. I got the sense

1673
01:33:37,640 --> 01:33:41,080
Speaker 1: he just thought I was being too sensitive, like, hey,

1674
01:33:42,080 --> 01:33:44,479
Speaker 1: you're lucky. I'm mentioning you. This is good for you.

1675
01:33:44,560 --> 01:33:46,840
Speaker 1: Like it was always the attitude Trump had, which is

1676
01:33:47,080 --> 01:33:49,479
Speaker 1: we're just in this attention economy together. And that's why

1677
01:33:49,960 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 1: there's a sense of Tucker when it's like, boy, he

1678
01:33:54,479 --> 01:33:57,519
Speaker 1: seems to live in reality, but I don't know what

1679
01:33:57,600 --> 01:33:58,760
Speaker 1: he believes.

1680
01:33:59,360 --> 01:34:01,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think his reality has changed a lot, though.

1681
01:34:01,840 --> 01:34:04,320
Speaker 2: I mean I think that you know, when he left

1682
01:34:04,400 --> 01:34:08,080
Speaker 2: Washington back I think in twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen,

1683
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:11,759
Speaker 2: after protesters went to his house and you know, scared,

1684
01:34:12,760 --> 01:34:14,400
Speaker 2: he was not home, but his wife was home and

1685
01:34:14,439 --> 01:34:17,040
Speaker 2: there are people outside the house channing we know where

1686
01:34:17,080 --> 01:34:17,439
Speaker 2: you live.

1687
01:34:18,160 --> 01:34:18,559
Speaker 1: I think that.

1688
01:34:18,760 --> 01:34:21,520
Speaker 2: I think I think Washington had already become fairly inhospitable

1689
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:21,840
Speaker 2: to him.

1690
01:34:21,880 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 1: You know, he was, yeah, it was look, I was yeah, yeah,

1691
01:34:26,200 --> 01:34:28,280
Speaker 1: it was funny. But running we worked in the same

1692
01:34:28,280 --> 01:34:31,240
Speaker 1: building and he couldn't make eye contact with me if

1693
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:33,160
Speaker 1: we passed each other in the hall. And it was

1694
01:34:33,200 --> 01:34:34,640
Speaker 1: the strange thing. And it wasn't just me, it was

1695
01:34:34,680 --> 01:34:36,760
Speaker 1: that he was so because he had to tape in

1696
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:40,240
Speaker 1: that building, and he'd like it was like he was

1697
01:34:40,280 --> 01:34:42,800
Speaker 1: afraid of engaging in any conversation, so he was like

1698
01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:44,439
Speaker 1: averting eye contact with everybody.

1699
01:34:44,520 --> 01:34:47,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, he I mean, he's really shrunk his circle. And

1700
01:34:47,120 --> 01:34:49,559
Speaker 2: now you know, he lives in he lives on two islands.

1701
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:51,160
Speaker 2: He lives on an island in Maine and an island

1702
01:34:51,240 --> 01:34:54,080
Speaker 2: in Florida. And you know where once he used to

1703
01:34:54,840 --> 01:34:57,080
Speaker 2: hang out and have lunch with, you know, David Brooks

1704
01:34:57,080 --> 01:34:59,280
Speaker 2: and Bill Crystal and all those guys. Now it's you know,

1705
01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:02,519
Speaker 2: Don Junior and Theo Vaughn. I mean, he's just completely

1706
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:04,720
Speaker 2: sort of traded one set for another set. And I

1707
01:35:04,720 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 2: think I think his world has you know, he would,

1708
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:09,960
Speaker 2: I mean, he would say it's not constricted because he

1709
01:35:10,000 --> 01:35:11,760
Speaker 2: would say, you know, you'd be constricted when he was

1710
01:35:11,800 --> 01:35:14,720
Speaker 2: hanging out with both Crystal David Brooks. But but it's

1711
01:35:14,840 --> 01:35:16,839
Speaker 2: he's he's a he's in a bit of an information

1712
01:35:16,880 --> 01:35:17,759
Speaker 2: bubble himself.

1713
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:20,479
Speaker 1: So come twenty twenty eight, there's going to be a

1714
01:35:20,520 --> 01:35:24,679
Speaker 1: fight for control or for influence in the conservative movement. Tucker,

1715
01:35:24,720 --> 01:35:26,800
Speaker 1: Carlson and JD. Vans are in one camp. Who are

1716
01:35:26,800 --> 01:35:30,240
Speaker 1: the camps? Who are the entities that you expect to

1717
01:35:30,400 --> 01:35:35,439
Speaker 1: engage in this essentially a competition of some sort. Whether

1718
01:35:35,479 --> 01:35:39,240
Speaker 1: it's a competition of ideas or or influence is an

1719
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:39,920
Speaker 1: open question.

1720
01:35:40,439 --> 01:35:41,760
Speaker 2: I feel like the Tucker.

1721
01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:43,240
Speaker 1: JD.

1722
01:35:43,400 --> 01:35:47,320
Speaker 2: Vance camp is I mean, they're going to be sort

1723
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,400
Speaker 2: of gradations of that. I feel like the only person

1724
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:54,280
Speaker 2: who's staking out a position that's you know, completely separate

1725
01:35:54,320 --> 01:35:56,759
Speaker 2: from that and actually in opposition to that is Ted Cruz.

1726
01:35:57,160 --> 01:36:00,559
Speaker 1: Well Cruz and he's personally gone after Carlson, right, And yeah,

1727
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:03,960
Speaker 1: they called it cutar Carlson, like that's the new thing

1728
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:04,880
Speaker 1: that some of them have.

1729
01:36:05,280 --> 01:36:10,120
Speaker 2: He's using Tucker as this avatar to basically he's he's

1730
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:12,439
Speaker 2: really going after Vance for that, right, I mean, but

1731
01:36:12,479 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 2: he's using it's easier to go after Tucker exactly, So

1732
01:36:15,160 --> 01:36:17,559
Speaker 2: he's using Tucker as a stand in. But I really

1733
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 2: think I actually i'd be curious what you think. I mean,

1734
01:36:19,960 --> 01:36:21,720
Speaker 2: I feel like Ted Cruz is sort of like the

1735
01:36:21,840 --> 01:36:24,160
Speaker 2: last at least for this very moment. He's like the

1736
01:36:24,200 --> 01:36:29,080
Speaker 2: only sort of non lood and soil nationalist Republican out there,

1737
01:36:29,120 --> 01:36:31,240
Speaker 2: and the only prominent one. He's sort of actually kind

1738
01:36:31,240 --> 01:36:37,400
Speaker 2: of planting his flag there. Yes, and Rand Paul, Yes,

1739
01:36:37,400 --> 01:36:39,640
Speaker 2: it is a pure liberty Yes exactly. That is going

1740
01:36:39,680 --> 01:36:43,559
Speaker 2: to plan a slightly different flag that is that. You know,

1741
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:46,280
Speaker 2: it'll be interesting, it's it's you know, he.

1742
01:36:48,000 --> 01:36:52,720
Speaker 1: Paul, You know Paul. No presidential candidacy suffered more from

1743
01:36:52,720 --> 01:36:55,960
Speaker 1: the rise of Trump right away than Rand Paul. Rand

1744
01:36:56,000 --> 01:36:58,840
Speaker 1: Paul had the outsider lane to himself until Donald Trump

1745
01:36:58,880 --> 01:37:01,160
Speaker 1: showed up. And the first guy who lost all of

1746
01:37:01,200 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 1: his he had this He started out like with a

1747
01:37:05,280 --> 01:37:08,360
Speaker 1: solid fifteen percent, which is pretty good. And when you're

1748
01:37:08,439 --> 01:37:11,040
Speaker 1: kicking off, and it was something to build on. It

1749
01:37:11,080 --> 01:37:14,720
Speaker 1: was he inherited much of his father's and it was

1750
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:18,000
Speaker 1: sort of a bit different, right, It was that and

1751
01:37:18,000 --> 01:37:21,080
Speaker 1: and Trump just scooped it all up. And it is

1752
01:37:21,120 --> 01:37:24,160
Speaker 1: a portion of the mega movement. Right, So yes, Paul,

1753
01:37:24,240 --> 01:37:30,240
Speaker 1: we'll have to say in this socially a libertarian.

1754
01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:32,839
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and it's you know, and it's and it's, uh,

1755
01:37:33,880 --> 01:37:37,240
Speaker 2: you know, Trump's kind of America first he is. So

1756
01:37:37,520 --> 01:37:39,840
Speaker 2: it's so malleable at this point, right, Like you can

1757
01:37:39,880 --> 01:37:41,960
Speaker 2: be against sort of these wars, but you can also

1758
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:42,439
Speaker 2: support them.

1759
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the joke at the White House

1760
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:47,439
Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump's the least Maga of everybody in

1761
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 1: the room.

1762
01:37:48,320 --> 01:37:50,519
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think that's I think Tucker's found that out.

1763
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:52,759
Speaker 2: I think Tucker really believed a lot of that stuff

1764
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 2: and he was really I think, you know, he and

1765
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:58,320
Speaker 2: when I say he's influential, like I think, you gotta,

1766
01:37:58,479 --> 01:38:00,200
Speaker 2: I gotta put the caveat like, you know, he not

1767
01:38:00,280 --> 01:38:02,559
Speaker 2: that influential. I mean he if he'd had his brothers,

1768
01:38:02,560 --> 01:38:06,720
Speaker 2: we would not have attacked Iran, probably not Venezuela. Though

1769
01:38:06,720 --> 01:38:08,760
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting the way he hasn't criticized the

1770
01:38:08,840 --> 01:38:11,280
Speaker 2: Venezuela operation the way he criticized the Iran one.

1771
01:38:11,560 --> 01:38:14,240
Speaker 1: But he was then critical of the idea before it happened.

1772
01:38:14,720 --> 01:38:16,280
Speaker 1: He was critical really before it happened.

1773
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:18,920
Speaker 2: Then once it happened, he totally cooled his jets, which

1774
01:38:18,920 --> 01:38:21,760
Speaker 2: I thought, you know, was kind of a a good

1775
01:38:22,200 --> 01:38:25,240
Speaker 2: sign that he's he's not you know, he's he's he

1776
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:26,719
Speaker 2: doesn't want to be seen as too out of step

1777
01:38:26,720 --> 01:38:29,000
Speaker 2: with Trump. He you know, I think he knows where

1778
01:38:29,000 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 2: his bread is butter just in terms of keeping his

1779
01:38:32,040 --> 01:38:34,240
Speaker 2: relevance and he that's a that's a relationship that I

1780
01:38:34,240 --> 01:38:37,679
Speaker 2: think he's more interested maybe in preserving than he was before.

1781
01:38:38,040 --> 01:38:39,840
Speaker 2: But but I think like you're right about Paul, like

1782
01:38:39,920 --> 01:38:44,160
Speaker 2: he he definitely you know, will have he's staking out

1783
01:38:44,200 --> 01:38:46,439
Speaker 2: a position that's different from others. But I feel like,

1784
01:38:46,520 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's cruise Paul and then and then

1785
01:38:48,920 --> 01:38:51,280
Speaker 2: that kind of Tucker, JD and then who There will

1786
01:38:51,320 --> 01:38:53,120
Speaker 2: be other candidates, but I think they're going to be

1787
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:59,200
Speaker 2: wary of straying too far from where JD vance is there.

1788
01:38:59,320 --> 01:39:02,080
Speaker 2: They're certainly certainly no one's going to criticize Trump. I mean,

1789
01:39:02,120 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 2: that's you know.

1790
01:39:03,000 --> 01:39:07,080
Speaker 1: Whoever irony is that that if there are a whole

1791
01:39:07,080 --> 01:39:11,519
Speaker 1: bunch of people trying to have ties to Trump, being

1792
01:39:11,560 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 1: the one person that runs away from it could in

1793
01:39:16,040 --> 01:39:19,680
Speaker 1: theory do better than you think. But I don't know

1794
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:22,240
Speaker 1: we'll see that many. I mean, I guess they'll get

1795
01:39:22,240 --> 01:39:25,439
Speaker 1: I don't know who that is vote. Yeah, it's sort

1796
01:39:25,439 --> 01:39:28,400
Speaker 1: of like Bredick Proberry. It's the John Kasich voter from

1797
01:39:28,479 --> 01:39:31,639
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. What happened to them? Right? Like? Are there

1798
01:39:31,760 --> 01:39:35,200
Speaker 1: enough of them? Like they're Democrats? Now I think they

1799
01:39:35,200 --> 01:39:37,240
Speaker 1: are too, But there was you know, there also was

1800
01:39:37,280 --> 01:39:40,680
Speaker 1: twenty two percent for NICKI Haley. There's probably you know,

1801
01:39:41,240 --> 01:39:44,000
Speaker 1: Maga Trump. You know, when you look at the overall,

1802
01:39:44,040 --> 01:39:47,800
Speaker 1: it's thirty five percent is always the bare bottom right

1803
01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 1: for any mega policy. So you know, that's about seventy

1804
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:54,439
Speaker 1: percent of the party, right when it's thirty five percent

1805
01:39:54,439 --> 01:39:56,920
Speaker 1: of the country, probably somewhere between sixty and seventy percent

1806
01:39:56,920 --> 01:39:59,960
Speaker 1: of the party, which only leaves thirty or forty right,

1807
01:40:00,400 --> 01:40:04,080
Speaker 1: the quote unquote sort of chamber, And that's the one

1808
01:40:04,360 --> 01:40:06,320
Speaker 1: I you know, the one wing of the party not

1809
01:40:06,720 --> 01:40:08,560
Speaker 1: mentioned here is kind of the business wing, right, the

1810
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce wing, and I guess that would be

1811
01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Marco Rubio. But Rubio has made it clear he's not

1812
01:40:14,000 --> 01:40:14,920
Speaker 1: going to challenge Vans.

1813
01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:21,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I feel like that that Chamber of Commerce wing,

1814
01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 2: I mean, the way the way all of business has

1815
01:40:24,080 --> 01:40:28,160
Speaker 2: behaved this this second the second Trump presidency is. I mean,

1816
01:40:28,200 --> 01:40:32,120
Speaker 2: they're they're a lot more willing to bend the knee

1817
01:40:32,240 --> 01:40:34,960
Speaker 2: and a lot less willing to criticize Trump than they

1818
01:40:34,960 --> 01:40:37,680
Speaker 2: were the first time around, and I can't see that

1819
01:40:37,760 --> 01:40:39,759
Speaker 2: changing in the next the next few years.

1820
01:40:40,200 --> 01:40:42,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder what subpoena is from a Democratic Congress

1821
01:40:42,720 --> 01:40:45,920
Speaker 1: will make them think after two years of that. I mean,

1822
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:48,920
Speaker 1: I take your point on that, but I think they've

1823
01:40:49,080 --> 01:40:54,679
Speaker 1: underestimated the iyre that they're going to draw when when

1824
01:40:54,840 --> 01:40:57,080
Speaker 1: Democrats get power back and they we're not going to

1825
01:40:57,080 --> 01:40:59,680
Speaker 1: be able to get to Trump, so they'll subpoena business.

1826
01:41:00,120 --> 01:41:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, oversight committee versus getting investigated by DOJ or having

1827
01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:05,679
Speaker 2: your merger plow.

1828
01:41:05,760 --> 01:41:08,559
Speaker 1: Yeah. None of them want that. Yeah, I hear you,

1829
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:10,439
Speaker 1: But none of them want to be you know, Frog

1830
01:41:10,479 --> 01:41:13,880
Speaker 1: marched up on Capitol Hill either, you know, yeah, sure

1831
01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:18,840
Speaker 1: saying you talk to Trump for this book. No, No,

1832
01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:20,519
Speaker 1: he did not. I was rich.

1833
01:41:20,560 --> 01:41:23,479
Speaker 2: I was surprised by he did not. He turned down

1834
01:41:23,520 --> 01:41:24,360
Speaker 2: my interview request.

1835
01:41:25,720 --> 01:41:29,880
Speaker 1: Who in the conservative media world sort of was was

1836
01:41:29,920 --> 01:41:32,840
Speaker 1: sort of the most comfortable talking about this in a

1837
01:41:32,880 --> 01:41:37,360
Speaker 1: detached way, you know.

1838
01:41:37,400 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 2: I like, I mean, some people didn't want to talk

1839
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:41,639
Speaker 2: on the record. So I have to probably be careful

1840
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:42,920
Speaker 2: about that. I'm just trying to think of who talk

1841
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:44,200
Speaker 2: on the record. I think, you know, I think the

1842
01:41:44,240 --> 01:41:47,080
Speaker 2: people who were at the Standard back when Tucker was there,

1843
01:41:47,120 --> 01:41:51,840
Speaker 2: you know, that original crew, Crystal, David Brooks, those, Andy Ferguson, I.

1844
01:41:51,760 --> 01:41:52,400
Speaker 1: Think they're.

1845
01:41:53,880 --> 01:41:55,760
Speaker 2: You know, I think there's still probably some sort of

1846
01:41:55,800 --> 01:41:59,080
Speaker 2: personal sadness there, but they kind of moved past that

1847
01:41:59,160 --> 01:42:01,240
Speaker 2: and they just sort of looking at it, you know,

1848
01:42:01,320 --> 01:42:04,639
Speaker 2: a less sort of more just analytically at this point,

1849
01:42:04,840 --> 01:42:09,479
Speaker 2: and you know, anthropologically, and they were they they had

1850
01:42:09,520 --> 01:42:14,240
Speaker 2: some interesting insights and thoughts, but a lot a lot

1851
01:42:14,240 --> 01:42:17,080
Speaker 2: of the people I talked to for the book from

1852
01:42:17,120 --> 01:42:20,240
Speaker 2: conservative media world were you know, didn't didn't want their

1853
01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:21,240
Speaker 2: their names used.

1854
01:42:21,600 --> 01:42:24,640
Speaker 1: Does he interact with people that disagree with them that

1855
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:26,439
Speaker 1: much anymore? I don't think so.

1856
01:42:26,520 --> 01:42:28,479
Speaker 2: I think that's I think that's the big change really

1857
01:42:28,600 --> 01:42:30,840
Speaker 2: since you know, he left Washington. Is he used to

1858
01:42:30,840 --> 01:42:33,040
Speaker 2: be kind of I think in the book, I say

1859
01:42:33,040 --> 01:42:35,200
Speaker 2: he was like the invited skunk to the garden party,

1860
01:42:35,320 --> 01:42:35,559
Speaker 2: you know.

1861
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:37,400
Speaker 1: He was, Oh, I think that's genuinely who he is.

1862
01:42:37,439 --> 01:42:40,160
Speaker 1: He wants to debate people. Yeah, Like, I actually don't

1863
01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:43,000
Speaker 1: think I mean, his interviews were always better than the

1864
01:42:43,080 --> 01:42:46,720
Speaker 1: other conservative interviews because he would challenge a guest every

1865
01:42:46,760 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: once in a while, right Sean Annity and Laura Ingram

1866
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:52,320
Speaker 1: every once a while Laura will challenge, but like Sean

1867
01:42:52,400 --> 01:42:55,479
Speaker 1: never challenges, right, Yeah, ever challenges a guest, you know.

1868
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:57,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, you know, and you it's funny

1869
01:42:58,080 --> 01:42:59,840
Speaker 2: Tucker now and most of the people he has on

1870
01:42:59,880 --> 01:43:02,080
Speaker 2: it show now or you know these you know, these

1871
01:43:02,080 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 2: are these softball interviews because he agrees with them all.

1872
01:43:04,280 --> 01:43:05,800
Speaker 2: But then if he has someone who don't think when

1873
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:08,000
Speaker 2: he had Ted Cruz on before the Iran attack, I

1874
01:43:08,000 --> 01:43:10,080
Speaker 2: mean you kind of like you remember, like, man, he's

1875
01:43:10,080 --> 01:43:11,440
Speaker 2: actually a pretty good interviewer.

1876
01:43:11,479 --> 01:43:14,160
Speaker 1: He can really need a smart guy and yeah, all those.

1877
01:43:14,000 --> 01:43:16,160
Speaker 2: Things, fast on his feet, Yeah, I know, he but

1878
01:43:16,200 --> 01:43:19,160
Speaker 2: I don't think he spends a lot of time talking

1879
01:43:19,200 --> 01:43:21,799
Speaker 2: to people he disagrees with. Now, he's very much within

1880
01:43:22,080 --> 01:43:24,760
Speaker 2: kind of the Maga bubble. And that's you know, and

1881
01:43:24,800 --> 01:43:28,760
Speaker 2: there look they're probably you know, security reasons. I mean,

1882
01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:31,559
Speaker 2: it's you know, I think that just the political climate

1883
01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:33,920
Speaker 2: being what it is, I think it's it's harder probably

1884
01:43:33,920 --> 01:43:36,920
Speaker 2: for him to you know, exist outside that bubble.

1885
01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:39,840
Speaker 1: How do you get a sense he is super ambitious?

1886
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:44,200
Speaker 1: Does he care about you know, it's interesting if you're

1887
01:43:44,240 --> 01:43:47,040
Speaker 1: Rush Lumbar or Father Coughlan, you know, you're just going

1888
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:49,920
Speaker 1: to be interesting to historians fifty years later. Beyond that,

1889
01:43:50,000 --> 01:43:52,559
Speaker 1: nobody's going to remember who you are. If you're president,

1890
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, you get it paid. I mean, is he

1891
01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:57,320
Speaker 1: does he care so much about who he is that

1892
01:43:57,920 --> 01:43:59,960
Speaker 1: he needs to run for office so that he's remembered.

1893
01:44:00,280 --> 01:44:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't get that sense. I think I don't

1894
01:44:03,040 --> 01:44:04,800
Speaker 2: think he's Bill Clinton. I don't think he's someone who

1895
01:44:04,800 --> 01:44:07,000
Speaker 2: has to be president. That said, I think if he

1896
01:44:07,160 --> 01:44:10,559
Speaker 2: concludes that the only way he can, you know, achieve

1897
01:44:10,720 --> 01:44:13,439
Speaker 2: his goals is by becoming president, I don't know what's

1898
01:44:13,439 --> 01:44:16,360
Speaker 2: the goal. I think the goal is changing the country.

1899
01:44:16,400 --> 01:44:18,880
Speaker 2: I think the goal is making it a place that

1900
01:44:19,040 --> 01:44:21,080
Speaker 2: you know, doesn't look very much like it does today.

1901
01:44:21,280 --> 01:44:24,920
Speaker 1: And I think that that that's ultimately it really is.

1902
01:44:25,080 --> 01:44:29,280
Speaker 1: He just wants to go back to a male dominated society.

1903
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:35,400
Speaker 2: Male dominated, white dominated. You know, in some parts of

1904
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:36,760
Speaker 2: what he wants to go back to I think are

1905
01:44:36,800 --> 01:44:38,880
Speaker 2: not necessarily all the negative. I mean, you know, a

1906
01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:42,840
Speaker 2: society that's you know, more about making things and having

1907
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:44,880
Speaker 2: financial instruments. I mean, they're you know, these are not

1908
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:47,479
Speaker 2: all bad things or wrong things. I think that's that's

1909
01:44:47,560 --> 01:44:48,280
Speaker 2: kind of his vision.

1910
01:44:49,400 --> 01:45:00,000
Speaker 1: Well, the unraveling of the conservative mind is do you

1911
01:45:01,439 --> 01:45:04,960
Speaker 1: do you think you know what the definition of conservatism is? Now?

1912
01:45:06,320 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 1: Do you have an idea of what I.

1913
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:09,360
Speaker 2: Think it's after doing this? I think it's in I

1914
01:45:09,360 --> 01:45:11,120
Speaker 2: think it's in flux. And I think the point you

1915
01:45:11,200 --> 01:45:15,400
Speaker 2: made about Teddy Roosevelt's a really smart one that you know,

1916
01:45:15,479 --> 01:45:18,479
Speaker 2: there there is a scenario where maybe it doesn't go

1917
01:45:18,560 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 2: back to exactly what it was before. And I think,

1918
01:45:21,160 --> 01:45:24,479
Speaker 2: you know, I think the never Trump crowd is you know,

1919
01:45:24,720 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 2: kidding themselves if they think it will.

1920
01:45:26,280 --> 01:45:27,799
Speaker 1: But it's not gonna be never Trumpers.

1921
01:45:27,840 --> 01:45:30,439
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean we're not bringing back yeah, yeah, yeah,

1922
01:45:30,479 --> 01:45:32,360
Speaker 2: you're not gonna have that Republican Party. It's gonna be

1923
01:45:32,400 --> 01:45:34,760
Speaker 2: something else. Will it be as trumpy and as it

1924
01:45:34,840 --> 01:45:36,760
Speaker 2: is while he's still in charge? I think that's the

1925
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:39,320
Speaker 2: real question. I think there are I think the people

1926
01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:44,240
Speaker 2: who believe that there is kind of a ideological coherence

1927
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:45,480
Speaker 2: to trump Ism.

1928
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:47,880
Speaker 1: You know, I think it remains to be seen. If

1929
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:49,800
Speaker 1: I let me ask you, this would you rather be

1930
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:52,320
Speaker 1: John fun or Josh Holly for the next decade in

1931
01:45:52,360 --> 01:45:56,120
Speaker 1: Republican politics. Josh Holly, without a doubt. I think that.

1932
01:45:56,160 --> 01:45:57,760
Speaker 2: I think that's where the energy is. I think that's

1933
01:45:57,800 --> 01:45:59,760
Speaker 2: where and that's where young people are. I think I

1934
01:45:59,760 --> 01:46:02,120
Speaker 2: think John Thune is a dinosaur. I think I think

1935
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:05,760
Speaker 2: Josh Holly and his his type are where where the

1936
01:46:05,760 --> 01:46:06,360
Speaker 2: future is.

1937
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:11,360
Speaker 1: So you've been transitioning, Uh do you Are you going

1938
01:46:11,400 --> 01:46:13,640
Speaker 1: to go back to daily writing? Uh?

1939
01:46:14,240 --> 01:46:18,240
Speaker 2: Not daily, but you know I will. I'm just write

1940
01:46:18,280 --> 01:46:21,160
Speaker 2: long magazine articles, so it won't be daily. But you know,

1941
01:46:22,120 --> 01:46:25,040
Speaker 2: these days I'm at the New Yorker, at the New Yorker,

1942
01:46:25,160 --> 01:46:28,040
Speaker 2: which is actually where I am right now, little phone booth.

1943
01:46:28,800 --> 01:46:33,559
Speaker 2: I'm yeah, yeah, and so not daily, but you know,

1944
01:46:33,760 --> 01:46:36,840
Speaker 2: definitely more than one thing in six years or five.

1945
01:46:36,920 --> 01:46:39,799
Speaker 1: So you've done Times, Post and New Yorker, Is that right?

1946
01:46:40,040 --> 01:46:41,720
Speaker 2: Just the just the New Ya. I was at the

1947
01:46:41,720 --> 01:46:43,920
Speaker 2: New York Times magazine and I just I just left there,

1948
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:45,720
Speaker 2: uh at the end of the year. So I just

1949
01:46:45,720 --> 01:46:46,639
Speaker 2: started at the New Yorker.

1950
01:46:47,360 --> 01:46:49,200
Speaker 1: And have you written a piece yet for The New Yorker?

1951
01:46:49,240 --> 01:46:49,599
Speaker 1: Not yet.

1952
01:46:50,120 --> 01:46:52,960
Speaker 2: I have a piece on Tucker Carlson in this in

1953
01:46:53,040 --> 01:46:55,040
Speaker 2: this week's issue. It's a it's an excerpt from the

1954
01:46:55,120 --> 01:46:57,960
Speaker 2: book with some new reporting about FTEs.

1955
01:46:59,200 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 1: Tough for fact checks. New York Times magazine or New

1956
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 1: Yorker both.

1957
01:47:03,400 --> 01:47:07,519
Speaker 2: Both very tough, both and you know, uh, I can't

1958
01:47:07,560 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 2: imagine doing this stuff without without that safety net.

1959
01:47:12,040 --> 01:47:13,680
Speaker 1: I've never written for the New York I wrote for

1960
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:17,040
Speaker 1: The Atlantic. Single hardest fact checking situation I ever went through,

1961
01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:19,519
Speaker 1: which is awesome and it made me better, but it

1962
01:47:19,640 --> 01:47:23,400
Speaker 1: was like, God, no, I nothing like a magazine to

1963
01:47:23,920 --> 01:47:24,680
Speaker 1: do a fact check.

1964
01:47:25,160 --> 01:47:27,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're just they're well, I think they're three

1965
01:47:27,400 --> 01:47:29,240
Speaker 2: places left that do it basically. I think we just

1966
01:47:29,320 --> 01:47:33,800
Speaker 2: named all three and uh, they're it's really plauchery. Yeah,

1967
01:47:33,880 --> 01:47:35,479
Speaker 2: but it's so it's so great. I mean there's a

1968
01:47:35,560 --> 01:47:37,439
Speaker 2: reason that those places are what they are, and I

1969
01:47:37,479 --> 01:47:39,880
Speaker 2: think that's it's it's the editing as well. I mean,

1970
01:47:40,000 --> 01:47:42,320
Speaker 2: you know, spending the amount of time that they do

1971
01:47:42,479 --> 01:47:44,960
Speaker 2: kind of making sure stuff is right, and the arguments were.

1972
01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:48,599
Speaker 1: I am all for all of our friends that are

1973
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:51,240
Speaker 1: doing well on sub stack and all of that, but

1974
01:47:51,360 --> 01:47:54,120
Speaker 1: there's nothing like collaboration to make a better product.

1975
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, having having colleagues, having bosses, having people you can

1976
01:47:58,640 --> 01:48:01,920
Speaker 2: kind of, you know, just work with and talk about stuff.

1977
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:05,320
Speaker 1: I think it does make a difference. So what do

1978
01:48:05,400 --> 01:48:06,719
Speaker 1: you help people get out of the book?

1979
01:48:09,320 --> 01:48:12,160
Speaker 2: I you know, I hope, I hope it helps people

1980
01:48:12,320 --> 01:48:17,360
Speaker 2: understand kind of how we got to this moment. I'm

1981
01:48:17,360 --> 01:48:19,120
Speaker 2: not you know, it's not all encompassing. There are all

1982
01:48:19,200 --> 01:48:21,200
Speaker 2: sorts of factors. But I do think Tucker is like

1983
01:48:21,280 --> 01:48:26,759
Speaker 2: a nice a nice kind of character and vehicle to explain.

1984
01:48:26,760 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 2: It's a sort of yeah, where where how we got

1985
01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:30,880
Speaker 2: to hear? I mean that's I mean, you know, I

1986
01:48:30,920 --> 01:48:32,720
Speaker 2: think people always sort of say, you know, what the

1987
01:48:32,760 --> 01:48:34,519
Speaker 2: hell are people in our world at least always say

1988
01:48:34,560 --> 01:48:36,599
Speaker 2: like what the hell happened to Tucker? And I think

1989
01:48:36,680 --> 01:48:38,680
Speaker 2: like there is kind of this larger question, you know,

1990
01:48:38,680 --> 01:48:40,240
Speaker 2: which is like, what the hell happened to all of us?

1991
01:48:40,320 --> 01:48:42,639
Speaker 2: It's not it's not just him, and and I hope

1992
01:48:42,720 --> 01:48:45,240
Speaker 2: that in reading about him, because you're not just reading

1993
01:48:45,240 --> 01:48:47,040
Speaker 2: about him, You're reading about the people who are around him,

1994
01:48:47,040 --> 01:48:50,120
Speaker 2: You're reading about the institutions he worked in. It's you know,

1995
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:52,760
Speaker 2: and people wind up in very different places, you know.

1996
01:48:52,840 --> 01:48:54,400
Speaker 2: I mean, you like him in Crystal sort of like

1997
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:56,639
Speaker 2: you know, their their their paths, the way they cross.

1998
01:48:56,720 --> 01:49:00,200
Speaker 2: Like there's something I think you know sort of interacting

1999
01:49:00,240 --> 01:49:02,639
Speaker 2: about that and something that you speaks to, something bigger than.

2000
01:49:02,640 --> 01:49:06,840
Speaker 1: Just the elected who's the elected Republican? If you were

2001
01:49:06,880 --> 01:49:09,559
Speaker 1: told you had to use a elected Republican as your

2002
01:49:09,640 --> 01:49:13,840
Speaker 1: vehicle to to do this, who would be the best

2003
01:49:13,880 --> 01:49:16,240
Speaker 1: candidate for that? I have a couple of nominees, but

2004
01:49:16,479 --> 01:49:18,040
Speaker 1: I'm sure is where your head would.

2005
01:49:17,880 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 2: Go with this? Okay, well yeah, so many of them have,

2006
01:49:21,560 --> 01:49:23,960
Speaker 2: but I would have said Ted Cruz until recently actually,

2007
01:49:25,160 --> 01:49:29,479
Speaker 2: just because you know his his sort of transformation. That's

2008
01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:32,920
Speaker 2: a great question. Uh huh, can you tell me yours?

2009
01:49:33,479 --> 01:49:33,800
Speaker 2: My two?

2010
01:49:34,080 --> 01:49:36,400
Speaker 1: My two quick ones would be Lindsay Graham and Marco Rubio,

2011
01:49:36,520 --> 01:49:38,040
Speaker 1: right they started his credit gosh of.

2012
01:49:38,000 --> 01:49:40,439
Speaker 2: Course yeah, Ruby, Yeah, Rubyo even more than Graham.

2013
01:49:40,520 --> 01:49:43,320
Speaker 1: Rubyo probably more than even Lindsay. Like Lindsay is so

2014
01:49:43,439 --> 01:49:47,080
Speaker 1: transactional kind of under Yeah, there's not a book, that's

2015
01:49:47,120 --> 01:49:51,240
Speaker 1: a pamphlet. Yeah, Ruby, Rubio is interesting. Yeah, Rubyo is

2016
01:49:51,360 --> 01:49:52,320
Speaker 1: much more interesting.

2017
01:49:52,680 --> 01:49:55,599
Speaker 2: Yeah, your question earlier about people who you think they

2018
01:49:55,640 --> 01:49:59,759
Speaker 2: can use Trump, there's that's I mean because obviously Ruby.

2019
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:02,000
Speaker 1: Was learned done with that story. Marco that's what I

2020
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:05,639
Speaker 1: keep warning my Marco friends. Yeah, you know, he's he's

2021
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:09,400
Speaker 1: he's unlocked the combination with Trump for Venezuela. Maybe he'll

2022
01:50:09,400 --> 01:50:12,519
Speaker 1: get there with Cuba. Yeah, that doesn't mean he's got

2023
01:50:12,720 --> 01:50:15,200
Speaker 1: you know, he's still the guy that made made fun

2024
01:50:15,240 --> 01:50:18,000
Speaker 1: of his you know what, and that will never be

2025
01:50:18,120 --> 01:50:21,839
Speaker 1: forgotten by the president. At some point he will humiliate

2026
01:50:21,920 --> 01:50:22,880
Speaker 1: Marco one more time.

2027
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:25,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's sort of what you sign up for, I

2028
01:50:25,479 --> 01:50:29,080
Speaker 2: think when when you go work there. But yeah, actually,

2029
01:50:29,080 --> 01:50:31,000
Speaker 2: you know, on JD. Vance would be a very good

2030
01:50:31,439 --> 01:50:32,960
Speaker 2: uh figure as well.

2031
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:36,560
Speaker 1: I assigned his coll I assign his book to my

2032
01:50:36,640 --> 01:50:39,360
Speaker 1: students to read and to try to understand what do

2033
01:50:39,400 --> 01:50:40,680
Speaker 1: you want to want them to get out of it?

2034
01:50:41,320 --> 01:50:44,800
Speaker 1: To try to, uh, you know, who's that guy and

2035
01:50:44,800 --> 01:50:48,120
Speaker 1: who's the vice president? Tell me who exactly, you know,

2036
01:50:48,160 --> 01:50:51,120
Speaker 1: help explain the two, you know, where do you see similarities?

2037
01:50:51,160 --> 01:50:53,360
Speaker 1: And what what? What are hard to just to you know,

2038
01:50:53,439 --> 01:50:57,040
Speaker 1: it's more of of just most of them these days

2039
01:50:57,360 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 1: don't know much about his biliology and they and to

2040
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 1: these students, they can't believe what they read. They're like, yeah, wow,

2041
01:51:03,439 --> 01:51:06,360
Speaker 1: yeah I like that guy. They all like them. Yeah,

2042
01:51:06,560 --> 01:51:08,519
Speaker 1: they love the author K d Vance.

2043
01:51:09,040 --> 01:51:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, it's like is you know law classmates, they

2044
01:51:11,240 --> 01:51:14,280
Speaker 2: all like that guy too, Maybe not so much anymore.

2045
01:51:14,479 --> 01:51:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey Jason, congrats. Like I said, I think you

2046
01:51:17,280 --> 01:51:19,960
Speaker 1: hit a home run with the title. Was it your idea?

2047
01:51:20,800 --> 01:51:22,840
Speaker 1: It's a great title. Hated by all the right people.

2048
01:51:22,920 --> 01:51:24,920
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, well it's you know, it's something that

2049
01:51:25,000 --> 01:51:25,559
Speaker 2: Tucker said.

2050
01:51:25,600 --> 01:51:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean Tucker, it was.

2051
01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:28,519
Speaker 2: It was what Tucker said to Victor Orband that was

2052
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:32,560
Speaker 2: he was he was getting ripest and Tucker said, you know,

2053
01:51:32,640 --> 01:51:34,280
Speaker 2: you were truly hated by all the right people.

2054
01:51:34,360 --> 01:51:37,040
Speaker 1: It was of the ultimate compliment. So it was, it was.

2055
01:51:38,280 --> 01:51:41,240
Speaker 1: It is shockingly compared. It's one of these books. Man,

2056
01:51:41,240 --> 01:51:43,000
Speaker 1: when you see it in the airport or you see

2057
01:51:43,040 --> 01:51:45,280
Speaker 1: it like you're going to look at it a second time.

2058
01:51:45,439 --> 01:51:49,080
Speaker 1: So I hope you're right, yes, exactly. Now you're going

2059
01:51:49,160 --> 01:51:50,840
Speaker 1: to do well. You're going to do well with this

2060
01:51:50,960 --> 01:51:55,960
Speaker 1: because people are constantly trying to figure out, explain this

2061
01:51:56,120 --> 01:51:58,760
Speaker 1: to me, what the hell happened? I thought I knew

2062
01:51:58,800 --> 01:52:02,120
Speaker 1: this guy. I thought I knew this movement. What are

2063
01:52:02,160 --> 01:52:06,040
Speaker 1: we doing here? Right? And look, you you don't have

2064
01:52:06,120 --> 01:52:08,400
Speaker 1: a definitive answer because there are no definitive answers. But

2065
01:52:08,560 --> 01:52:10,360
Speaker 1: but you give us, you take us on the critical

2066
01:52:10,439 --> 01:52:13,120
Speaker 1: thinking tour that we all need to be on. Thanks,

2067
01:52:13,160 --> 01:52:22,400
Speaker 1: that was definitely a goal effect a lot. Well, there

2068
01:52:22,439 --> 01:52:25,519
Speaker 1: you go, hated buy all the right people? Is that

2069
01:52:25,720 --> 01:52:29,360
Speaker 1: something any of you want on your tombstone? You know?

2070
01:52:29,680 --> 01:52:32,920
Speaker 1: I go back to Kramer and the pet cemetery man's

2071
01:52:32,960 --> 01:52:35,479
Speaker 1: best friend, and that's what he wanted on his tomb

2072
01:52:35,479 --> 01:52:39,360
Speaker 1: So I think that's it. I'm with Kramer and rather that.

2073
01:52:39,400 --> 01:52:40,680
Speaker 1: I don't know if I want hated by all the

2074
01:52:40,760 --> 01:52:42,439
Speaker 1: right people, but if probably not the worst thing to

2075
01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:48,479
Speaker 1: happen your tombstone anyway. But I digress. Let's do some

2076
01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:51,639
Speaker 1: questions a little ask Chuck. It's Thursday, right, Let's let's

2077
01:52:52,000 --> 01:52:58,240
Speaker 1: let's get through something. Ask Chuck. First, one comes from

2078
01:52:58,320 --> 01:53:00,439
Speaker 1: JP says, hey, check, I have too solid questions for you.

2079
01:53:00,640 --> 01:53:03,920
Speaker 1: All right, you've already graded your own questions, JP, I

2080
01:53:03,960 --> 01:53:07,720
Speaker 1: appreciate it. One I love veep. Okay, who do you

2081
01:53:07,800 --> 01:53:11,559
Speaker 1: think in real life? Mike McClintock is based on interesting

2082
01:53:11,640 --> 01:53:15,559
Speaker 1: that's the press secretary of Matt Walsh's character there, all right?

2083
01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:18,240
Speaker 1: And then two is the Native American population across all

2084
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:21,679
Speaker 1: states a viable voting block. Both parties are under investing

2085
01:53:21,840 --> 01:53:28,280
Speaker 1: in could they shift election results best JP Okay, first question, Well,

2086
01:53:28,280 --> 01:53:29,960
Speaker 1: you got to remember when it was written, when it

2087
01:53:30,080 --> 01:53:33,879
Speaker 1: was conceived, and so who were seen as press secretaries

2088
01:53:33,920 --> 01:53:37,160
Speaker 1: at that time. So, right, this is an early Oughts

2089
01:53:39,240 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 1: and so you had, you know, the different models of

2090
01:53:42,920 --> 01:53:49,560
Speaker 1: press secretaries. You had Mike McCurry, Uh, you know, he

2091
01:53:49,800 --> 01:53:52,160
Speaker 1: was he was sort of the star of the of

2092
01:53:52,439 --> 01:53:56,080
Speaker 1: the Clinton press world when he was the one having

2093
01:53:56,120 --> 01:53:58,240
Speaker 1: to do the daily briefings when they first started getting

2094
01:53:58,280 --> 01:54:03,040
Speaker 1: televised every day during the Lewinsky's handle, and how McCurry

2095
01:54:03,160 --> 01:54:08,479
Speaker 1: somehow was always praised for how he could avoid answering

2096
01:54:08,720 --> 01:54:15,320
Speaker 1: certain questions. Ari Fleischer was Bush's guy at the podium

2097
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:18,439
Speaker 1: right in the first term, certainly during nine to eleven.

2098
01:54:21,240 --> 01:54:25,080
Speaker 1: So you know, my guess is they are sort of

2099
01:54:26,600 --> 01:54:31,240
Speaker 1: that the writers although I never asked specifically, but you know,

2100
01:54:31,360 --> 01:54:33,360
Speaker 1: you're gonna model off of what you've seen and what

2101
01:54:33,480 --> 01:54:36,120
Speaker 1: you know the public has seen. So my guess is

2102
01:54:36,320 --> 01:54:38,800
Speaker 1: based on when it was when that when the when

2103
01:54:38,840 --> 01:54:42,000
Speaker 1: this show was first conceived. So I'm gonna go with

2104
01:54:42,160 --> 01:54:45,520
Speaker 1: with Mike McCurry, Ari Fleischer, and then maybe a little

2105
01:54:45,600 --> 01:54:48,280
Speaker 1: Robert Gibbs, who could be snarky from the podium, like

2106
01:54:48,360 --> 01:54:53,880
Speaker 1: mcclint talk to Gibbs one time, and Robert's a good friend.

2107
01:54:54,080 --> 01:54:59,480
Speaker 1: I've known him thirty years. You know, poor poor guy

2108
01:54:59,560 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 1: is an Aubum and football fan. So I kind of

2109
01:55:01,440 --> 01:55:04,080
Speaker 1: feel sorry for my Auburn football football fans. It sucks

2110
01:55:04,120 --> 01:55:06,400
Speaker 1: being the you know, always in the shadow of Bama.

2111
01:55:06,480 --> 01:55:08,680
Speaker 1: So it's a one sec school. I have a little

2112
01:55:08,720 --> 01:55:11,080
Speaker 1: soft spot for. Plus, I have too many members of

2113
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:15,440
Speaker 1: my extended family were Auburn, Auburn folks, so yeah, I

2114
01:55:15,600 --> 01:55:19,240
Speaker 1: I so. One time Robert and I got into it

2115
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:25,560
Speaker 1: and he decided to broadcast my email at one of

2116
01:55:25,640 --> 01:55:28,680
Speaker 1: the press briefings. So it was the first time that

2117
01:55:28,800 --> 01:55:31,160
Speaker 1: my email went everywhere on the internet. You know, I

2118
01:55:31,280 --> 01:55:34,160
Speaker 1: didn't care. I'm like, I'm a journalist. Hey, I'm supposed

2119
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:35,560
Speaker 1: to be an extension of the public. You want to

2120
01:55:35,600 --> 01:55:39,880
Speaker 1: find me, never hit my email address. But he could.

2121
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:44,080
Speaker 1: He enjoyed his time at the podium every now and then.

2122
01:55:44,080 --> 01:55:45,760
Speaker 1: He didn't mind being the star of that TV show

2123
01:55:46,400 --> 01:55:48,520
Speaker 1: a little bit. Neither did Mike Recurry. Neither did Ari

2124
01:55:48,600 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 1: Fleischer most anyway, but that's where my guests, is there

2125
01:55:51,960 --> 01:55:56,000
Speaker 1: as for the Native American population, it depends on the

2126
01:55:56,080 --> 01:55:59,240
Speaker 1: state right there is it is. It can be a

2127
01:55:59,320 --> 01:56:03,920
Speaker 1: significant vote block in the Dakotas in close elections. It

2128
01:56:04,440 --> 01:56:10,800
Speaker 1: can be a significant source of money. In Oklahoma. The

2129
01:56:10,960 --> 01:56:15,160
Speaker 1: tribes there have the casino businesses there and they are

2130
01:56:15,400 --> 01:56:19,440
Speaker 1: quite well and they've been a huge some Basically it's

2131
01:56:19,680 --> 01:56:24,520
Speaker 1: they're the check on the Republican Party in Oklahoma. You know,

2132
01:56:24,640 --> 01:56:28,560
Speaker 1: they'll recruit candidates and fund candidates and stuff. So certainly

2133
01:56:28,560 --> 01:56:33,040
Speaker 1: their money there. Arizona, there's the first congressional district has

2134
01:56:33,080 --> 01:56:39,000
Speaker 1: a significant Native American population that that can can swing

2135
01:56:39,080 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 1: that seat. But you know, the thing is, it's not

2136
01:56:43,080 --> 01:56:46,440
Speaker 1: there isn't It is hard to and obviously New Mexico

2137
01:56:46,800 --> 01:56:51,560
Speaker 1: as a big A lot of times there are very

2138
01:56:51,560 --> 01:56:56,040
Speaker 1: parochial issues that motivates some of the Native American voters.

2139
01:56:56,920 --> 01:56:59,240
Speaker 1: Some of it could be very local. It could be

2140
01:57:00,280 --> 01:57:02,600
Speaker 1: specific issues with the federal government, with the Bureau of

2141
01:57:02,640 --> 01:57:06,160
Speaker 1: Land Management, which is you know who they the reservations

2142
01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:08,840
Speaker 1: have to deal with the most in some of these

2143
01:57:08,880 --> 01:57:16,400
Speaker 1: sovereign territories. So I do think that when Democrats were

2144
01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:21,160
Speaker 1: more competitive in the Dakotas, you saw more money. You know,

2145
01:57:21,360 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 1: one could argue Tim Johnson won. You know, you talked

2146
01:57:24,720 --> 01:57:27,560
Speaker 1: to veterans of the Tim Johnson campaign in two thousand

2147
01:57:27,560 --> 01:57:30,320
Speaker 1: and two, which was the Johnson Thune race, and then

2148
01:57:30,360 --> 01:57:32,840
Speaker 1: thun ran again two years later against Dashel. It beats

2149
01:57:32,880 --> 01:57:36,040
Speaker 1: Dashel No. Four. But in that Johnson Thune race, if

2150
01:57:36,080 --> 01:57:40,640
Speaker 1: memory served, the Democrats believe they their margin of victory

2151
01:57:40,760 --> 01:57:46,840
Speaker 1: was essentially their investment in the Native American vote in

2152
01:57:46,920 --> 01:57:50,640
Speaker 1: South Dakota. So there are certainly instances where it's been

2153
01:57:50,800 --> 01:57:54,920
Speaker 1: a significant vote, but it's it's when it's already in

2154
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:59,800
Speaker 1: a close election Montana, in the very close elections they've mattered.

2155
01:58:01,160 --> 01:58:04,880
Speaker 1: And in general in some of these places they lean Democratic,

2156
01:58:04,960 --> 01:58:09,640
Speaker 1: but it's not always the case. You know, sometimes they

2157
01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:13,040
Speaker 1: there's just a very specific issue that some leaders. And

2158
01:58:14,480 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 1: the other thing is a lot of times they'll be

2159
01:58:17,440 --> 01:58:20,200
Speaker 1: voting blocks that you know, the leaders of the tribe

2160
01:58:20,280 --> 01:58:23,040
Speaker 1: might say, look, this this party is going to do,

2161
01:58:23,680 --> 01:58:26,440
Speaker 1: is going to manage this better for us. So you

2162
01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:28,480
Speaker 1: may not like this person, but this is what we

2163
01:58:28,600 --> 01:58:33,680
Speaker 1: need here. So I so I don't know if I

2164
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:38,360
Speaker 1: would call it under investing either party, but I do

2165
01:58:38,600 --> 01:58:44,880
Speaker 1: know that in a financial sense, they're quite powerful, quite

2166
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:47,160
Speaker 1: powerful in Oklahom, actually quite powerful here in the state

2167
01:58:47,200 --> 01:58:52,920
Speaker 1: of Florida. You know, it's why the you know, they

2168
01:58:53,440 --> 01:58:55,880
Speaker 1: they won the mobile gaming fight in the state of Florida,

2169
01:58:57,600 --> 01:59:03,360
Speaker 1: and so it's a it's a pretty powerful political group,

2170
01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:08,080
Speaker 1: but it not necessarily high in numbers. All right, Next

2171
01:59:08,160 --> 01:59:10,160
Speaker 1: question comes from Brad. He says, love the pod. What

2172
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:12,800
Speaker 1: sign should we look for that Republicans believe they'll lose

2173
01:59:12,840 --> 01:59:14,680
Speaker 1: control of the Senate. For me, the obvious one would

2174
01:59:14,680 --> 01:59:16,720
Speaker 1: be if the public pressure ramps up on Alito and

2175
01:59:16,960 --> 01:59:18,600
Speaker 1: or Thomas to retire. Thanks for all the great work

2176
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:20,960
Speaker 1: you do, best, Brad, Brad, I think that's a terrific

2177
01:59:23,600 --> 01:59:26,440
Speaker 1: way to look at it. I think that's coming. I

2178
01:59:26,560 --> 01:59:31,040
Speaker 1: think you're gonna see that. If I were John Thune,

2179
01:59:32,080 --> 01:59:35,480
Speaker 1: if I were the head of the nrsc Tim Scott,

2180
01:59:36,320 --> 01:59:39,520
Speaker 1: I absolutely would like to have the summer dominated by

2181
01:59:42,160 --> 01:59:44,960
Speaker 1: a Supreme Court. And one could argue that the twenty

2182
01:59:45,000 --> 01:59:48,720
Speaker 1: eighteen midterms would have been worse for Trump because he'd

2183
01:59:48,760 --> 01:59:52,000
Speaker 1: have might have not picked up any ground in the

2184
01:59:52,000 --> 01:59:55,640
Speaker 1: Senate if it wasn't for the Kavanaugh nomination that summer.

2185
01:59:55,920 --> 01:59:58,720
Speaker 1: I mean, Claire mccaskell will tell you she believes the

2186
01:59:59,560 --> 02:00:04,720
Speaker 1: Kavanaugh nomination cost her her race, that you know, she

2187
02:00:04,880 --> 02:00:08,160
Speaker 1: was making progress, that she had a winnable race, and

2188
02:00:08,360 --> 02:00:11,360
Speaker 1: then when Kavanaugh became the cause celeb for the right,

2189
02:00:12,320 --> 02:00:18,360
Speaker 1: that was it. She was toasted. So yeah, I think

2190
02:00:19,080 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 1: I think it's about the I think this is more

2191
02:00:22,800 --> 02:00:25,840
Speaker 1: effect effective at trying to get the base riled up

2192
02:00:27,480 --> 02:00:33,360
Speaker 1: than than sending checks, which is Trump's other instinct here

2193
02:00:33,400 --> 02:00:35,280
Speaker 1: to try to fix his mid term problems. Well, let

2194
02:00:35,320 --> 02:00:40,520
Speaker 1: me just write people checks that'll make them happy. But

2195
02:00:40,720 --> 02:00:42,880
Speaker 1: it you know, this may not come from Trump, but

2196
02:00:43,280 --> 02:00:45,880
Speaker 1: you know the stories are I you know, you hear

2197
02:00:46,360 --> 02:00:51,080
Speaker 1: there's been whispers already that the Alito's tired of of

2198
02:00:51,200 --> 02:00:54,880
Speaker 1: sort of the didn't like being a political target during

2199
02:00:54,920 --> 02:01:02,360
Speaker 1: that whole flag business. And you know Thomas Thomas is

2200
02:01:02,440 --> 02:01:06,520
Speaker 1: ready to drive that RV around the country. So I

2201
02:01:07,600 --> 02:01:12,640
Speaker 1: you know, wouldn't I'm not going to be shocked if

2202
02:01:12,680 --> 02:01:19,640
Speaker 1: both of them come open this summer. But I think,

2203
02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:22,200
Speaker 1: you know, that's if they really put it this way,

2204
02:01:22,240 --> 02:01:24,040
Speaker 1: You want to talk about a measurement, if they really

2205
02:01:24,120 --> 02:01:27,280
Speaker 1: think they could lose it all is if they both

2206
02:01:27,400 --> 02:01:31,520
Speaker 1: decide to retire and give Trump too. We should just

2207
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:35,440
Speaker 1: be shocking, right, five Supreme Court justices in two terms.

2208
02:01:35,960 --> 02:01:39,160
Speaker 1: If you pull that up. I'm trying to think of

2209
02:01:39,240 --> 02:01:47,000
Speaker 1: what other signs. You know, look Susan Collins still has

2210
02:01:47,160 --> 02:01:54,960
Speaker 1: not filed for reelection. She's head of appropriations. If she

2211
02:01:55,200 --> 02:02:01,200
Speaker 1: doesn't file for reelection, nobody walks away from appropriations. They

2212
02:02:01,280 --> 02:02:04,880
Speaker 1: think they're going to have the gapol again. So that's

2213
02:02:05,240 --> 02:02:07,640
Speaker 1: that's among the ewers. That's you know, we're a few

2214
02:02:07,680 --> 02:02:10,840
Speaker 1: weeks away yet, but that filing deadline's coming up. So

2215
02:02:11,160 --> 02:02:16,360
Speaker 1: there's another little deadline. All right, it's my man Austin

2216
02:02:16,400 --> 02:02:18,760
Speaker 1: from Austin. Anyway, I say send say the viral photo

2217
02:02:18,840 --> 02:02:21,120
Speaker 1: of the dress blue and black to some white and

2218
02:02:21,160 --> 02:02:23,640
Speaker 1: gold others feels like the perfect metaphor from politics today.

2219
02:02:23,680 --> 02:02:25,960
Speaker 1: You know what it really does. That's a great one,

2220
02:02:26,080 --> 02:02:29,360
Speaker 1: nice Paul Austin. We've always seen different risks and priorities,

2221
02:02:29,360 --> 02:02:31,320
Speaker 1: but now feels like we can't even agree. We're looking

2222
02:02:31,360 --> 02:02:33,760
Speaker 1: at the same thing. Disagreement is fine, but democracy depends

2223
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:36,320
Speaker 1: on a shared reality. So I still see a white

2224
02:02:36,320 --> 02:02:37,920
Speaker 1: and gold dress. Do you see a dress at all?

2225
02:02:40,880 --> 02:02:41,040
Speaker 2: Now?

2226
02:02:41,080 --> 02:02:44,720
Speaker 1: It's whatever the Lord algorithm has shoved in front of me, right,

2227
02:02:46,560 --> 02:02:50,920
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I guess you know, let me

2228
02:02:51,000 --> 02:02:56,520
Speaker 1: go back to where I started this podcast today. You know,

2229
02:02:56,600 --> 02:03:00,400
Speaker 1: we talk about our fragmented society, but I feel like

2230
02:03:00,440 --> 02:03:03,280
Speaker 1: everybody feels like they saw the same thing in Minneapolis.

2231
02:03:05,000 --> 02:03:07,080
Speaker 1: Maybe not everybody saw the same thing with the Renee

2232
02:03:07,200 --> 02:03:13,960
Speaker 1: Good killing at the beginning, but now they do. So,

2233
02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:17,040
Speaker 1: you know, for for all of them, for all of

2234
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:21,160
Speaker 1: the all of our concerns about do we have a

2235
02:03:21,240 --> 02:03:26,960
Speaker 1: shared reality those poll numbers. I don't know about you,

2236
02:03:28,320 --> 02:03:32,120
Speaker 1: but you know, it's when I'm not with the majority

2237
02:03:32,160 --> 02:03:34,520
Speaker 1: on something that I start wondering what am I missing?

2238
02:03:34,600 --> 02:03:42,360
Speaker 1: What am I not seeing? You know, I don't think

2239
02:03:42,360 --> 02:03:44,440
Speaker 1: we're alone here. I think we all see the instability.

2240
02:03:45,000 --> 02:03:48,120
Speaker 1: We all see the lack of focus. You know, they're

2241
02:03:48,160 --> 02:03:50,480
Speaker 1: supporters of his who are saying he needs to focus

2242
02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:53,720
Speaker 1: more on the economy. You know, they won't say it

2243
02:03:53,760 --> 02:03:57,280
Speaker 1: out loud that he's making us less secure by this

2244
02:03:57,560 --> 02:04:02,560
Speaker 1: unstable mess that he's created around the world, but they're

2245
02:04:02,640 --> 02:04:05,640
Speaker 1: kind of implying it by saying he needs focus more

2246
02:04:05,680 --> 02:04:09,480
Speaker 1: on the economy. So I take your point. I think

2247
02:04:09,560 --> 02:04:14,920
Speaker 1: you're right as far as how debates go on social

2248
02:04:14,960 --> 02:04:18,040
Speaker 1: media and how the conversation can sound sometimes on the

2249
02:04:18,320 --> 02:04:20,760
Speaker 1: floor of the House of the Florida Senate. But the

2250
02:04:20,920 --> 02:04:26,120
Speaker 1: public's reaction to this presidency right now and the poll numbers,

2251
02:04:26,840 --> 02:04:31,800
Speaker 1: if we all weren't seeing the same thing, then he'd

2252
02:04:31,840 --> 02:04:38,080
Speaker 1: be doing better in the polling. I think, I think

2253
02:04:38,120 --> 02:04:40,600
Speaker 1: our reality we're seeing more of the same things than

2254
02:04:40,680 --> 02:04:43,480
Speaker 1: we maybe give ourselves credit for. All right, next question

2255
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:46,080
Speaker 1: comes from Drew A writes, do you see connection between

2256
02:04:46,160 --> 02:04:49,080
Speaker 1: rising economic inequality and affordability pressures at home and the

2257
02:04:49,160 --> 02:04:52,920
Speaker 1: growing isolation is sentiment among Americans? Short term economic down

2258
02:04:53,000 --> 02:04:55,440
Speaker 1: terms tend to affect the party in power the political weather,

2259
02:04:56,080 --> 02:04:58,360
Speaker 1: But is what we're seeing more of a longer term

2260
02:04:58,440 --> 02:05:01,960
Speaker 1: climate shift as those pressures at millennials and gen Z harder,

2261
02:05:01,960 --> 02:05:04,200
Speaker 1: Do you expect that inward turn to intensify and what

2262
02:05:04,200 --> 02:05:05,840
Speaker 1: would that mean for you as form politicive for the

2263
02:05:05,880 --> 02:05:09,360
Speaker 1: next decade. Thanks for all that you do well. I

2264
02:05:09,440 --> 02:05:13,040
Speaker 1: got asked a similar question on Wednesday night my talk

2265
02:05:13,080 --> 02:05:16,600
Speaker 1: at FAU about but it was was and I say similar,

2266
02:05:16,600 --> 02:05:20,160
Speaker 1: It wasn't quite the same thing, but it was. It

2267
02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:22,640
Speaker 1: was about gen Z and millennials, and it was about

2268
02:05:22,720 --> 02:05:26,120
Speaker 1: their sort of you know, what are they bringing to

2269
02:05:26,200 --> 02:05:29,160
Speaker 1: the table that the other generations have. And my answer

2270
02:05:29,160 --> 02:05:33,080
Speaker 1: to that was skepticism about capitalism. And so in some

2271
02:05:33,240 --> 02:05:38,320
Speaker 1: ways I think you're you're getting at a similar sentiment here.

2272
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:46,240
Speaker 1: But this is not a new you know, when I

2273
02:05:46,320 --> 02:05:49,680
Speaker 1: think about when I keep talking about how much the

2274
02:05:49,800 --> 02:05:53,080
Speaker 1: current era echoes with the first sort of about twenty

2275
02:05:53,600 --> 02:05:57,440
Speaker 1: twenty five years of the twentieth century, you know, as

2276
02:05:57,520 --> 02:06:03,240
Speaker 1: we were, you know, both growing quickly with the industrial

2277
02:06:03,280 --> 02:06:07,400
Speaker 1: Revolution and at the same time panicking about the loss

2278
02:06:07,440 --> 02:06:09,440
Speaker 1: of our way of life. Right we were moving from

2279
02:06:09,800 --> 02:06:12,760
Speaker 1: a grarian economy to industrial economy. There were losers, people

2280
02:06:12,760 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 1: were being left behind all those things, and this concern

2281
02:06:18,600 --> 02:06:21,240
Speaker 1: about inequality was at its height. It's why we ended

2282
02:06:21,320 --> 02:06:24,520
Speaker 1: up with a constitutional amendment about the income tax. We

2283
02:06:24,600 --> 02:06:27,640
Speaker 1: weren't trying to tax most Americans. We wanted to tax

2284
02:06:27,880 --> 02:06:30,240
Speaker 1: the rich Americans. We were pissed off. We were angry

2285
02:06:31,000 --> 02:06:33,640
Speaker 1: at the super wealthy, at the Robert barons, at the

2286
02:06:33,680 --> 02:06:37,920
Speaker 1: Gilded Age, and you know, that was a way to

2287
02:06:38,040 --> 02:06:40,560
Speaker 1: try to offer a check and we didn't trust them

2288
02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:48,600
Speaker 1: with senators. We wanted direct election at senators. So and

2289
02:06:48,720 --> 02:06:51,600
Speaker 1: that's where I see some similarities and I think, I

2290
02:06:51,640 --> 02:06:53,360
Speaker 1: guess I look at it this way. I think millennials

2291
02:06:53,400 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 1: and gen Z are going to drive this because it's

2292
02:06:57,720 --> 02:07:04,320
Speaker 1: ideologically diverse, the coalition they're you know, they may be

2293
02:07:04,440 --> 02:07:06,440
Speaker 1: on different sides of that, but they're all skeptical of

2294
02:07:06,520 --> 02:07:13,040
Speaker 1: corporate power. So I kind of I so I I

2295
02:07:20,000 --> 02:07:22,200
Speaker 1: look at it this way. I think gen Z and

2296
02:07:22,360 --> 02:07:27,960
Speaker 1: the millennials are going to do I mean, look, Upton

2297
02:07:28,040 --> 02:07:34,520
Speaker 1: Sinclair right wrote, wrote about the awful conditions for labor

2298
02:07:34,560 --> 02:07:36,120
Speaker 1: and child libor and all those things, and that was

2299
02:07:36,160 --> 02:07:40,200
Speaker 1: all happening in the teens and twenties, right before government

2300
02:07:40,320 --> 02:07:43,640
Speaker 1: finally intervened and decided that it needed to put some

2301
02:07:43,760 --> 02:07:48,440
Speaker 1: structure and rules into place, and and that generation, you know,

2302
02:07:48,960 --> 02:07:52,880
Speaker 1: embraced labor unions, and you know, we're basically embracing more

2303
02:07:53,000 --> 02:07:57,400
Speaker 1: checks on corporate power. Right. So I do think that

2304
02:07:57,840 --> 02:08:00,320
Speaker 1: while that gen Z and gen Alpha are going to

2305
02:08:00,400 --> 02:08:02,960
Speaker 1: lead that charge, I think millennials are kind of victims

2306
02:08:03,000 --> 02:08:05,880
Speaker 1: of this and they will go along, right, But but

2307
02:08:06,000 --> 02:08:08,040
Speaker 1: I think by the time something is done about it,

2308
02:08:09,240 --> 02:08:11,240
Speaker 1: I think the pressure is already there with millennials, right,

2309
02:08:11,280 --> 02:08:14,000
Speaker 1: they're now raising kids and dealing with their student debt,

2310
02:08:14,160 --> 02:08:17,720
Speaker 1: and struggling to buy a home, right, all of that.

2311
02:08:18,600 --> 02:08:26,880
Speaker 1: So so I do expect this movement to intensify, but

2312
02:08:27,000 --> 02:08:31,120
Speaker 1: I think it's it is more of trying to well.

2313
02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:33,960
Speaker 1: I mean, this is why I had on the author

2314
02:08:34,080 --> 02:08:37,120
Speaker 1: of that book the Middle middle Class, essentially a new

2315
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:39,400
Speaker 1: Deal for the middle class, because I do think this

2316
02:08:39,640 --> 02:08:44,000
Speaker 1: is there's an appetite for this, and I think what

2317
02:08:44,240 --> 02:08:46,160
Speaker 1: was the beauty of that book is a reminder that,

2318
02:08:46,880 --> 02:08:50,240
Speaker 1: you know, the free market didn't create the middle class government, right,

2319
02:08:50,560 --> 02:08:54,520
Speaker 1: you know, government had to intervene in order to protect

2320
02:08:54,720 --> 02:09:01,520
Speaker 1: and help create the conditions for a middle class. I

2321
02:09:01,640 --> 02:09:03,600
Speaker 1: think that's I think this is all going to be

2322
02:09:03,800 --> 02:09:07,720
Speaker 1: driven by gen Z and I throw Jen Alfhubb in there.

2323
02:09:08,240 --> 02:09:15,200
Speaker 1: But you know, as far as foreign policy, I don't.

2324
02:09:17,720 --> 02:09:20,040
Speaker 1: I do think that there's a lot of we've got

2325
02:09:20,120 --> 02:09:22,120
Speaker 1: to we got to put our own house in order

2326
02:09:22,200 --> 02:09:25,640
Speaker 1: before we worry about everybody else. But I wouldn't automatically

2327
02:09:25,720 --> 02:09:31,760
Speaker 1: assume that that sentiment means that person's also an isolationist, right.

2328
02:09:31,880 --> 02:09:36,120
Speaker 1: I also think that gen Z and millennials are more

2329
02:09:36,240 --> 02:09:39,560
Speaker 1: likely to call themselves global citizens than any other generation. Right,

2330
02:09:39,760 --> 02:09:41,920
Speaker 1: So that's why I don't know if they're going to

2331
02:09:41,960 --> 02:09:46,440
Speaker 1: be that. This feeling that that they you know, we

2332
02:09:46,520 --> 02:09:51,400
Speaker 1: need to focus at home doesn't automatically mean also in

2333
02:09:51,440 --> 02:09:54,040
Speaker 1: favor of an isolationist for a policy. At least that's

2334
02:09:54,080 --> 02:09:56,800
Speaker 1: where I choose to follow that one. All right. Last

2335
02:09:56,880 --> 02:10:00,560
Speaker 1: question comes from Blaze Markovic Blaze Rights, sorry about your

2336
02:10:00,640 --> 02:10:03,520
Speaker 1: Nets trading, Mackenzie Gore, Yeah, me too, man. Moves like

2337
02:10:03,600 --> 02:10:05,840
Speaker 1: that are tough to understand, especially as a Tiger's fan

2338
02:10:06,040 --> 02:10:09,760
Speaker 1: watching the schoobl drama unfold. Yeah, there's a lot of

2339
02:10:09,880 --> 02:10:12,400
Speaker 1: rumors that Schooble gets traded before the start of the season.

2340
02:10:12,840 --> 02:10:16,480
Speaker 1: Basically the best picture in baseball right now. That sucks,

2341
02:10:16,560 --> 02:10:19,920
Speaker 1: sorry Tigers fans, And with the Wizard's mismanagement, I really

2342
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:23,120
Speaker 1: hope Monumental doesn't end up owning the Nets too. They

2343
02:10:23,200 --> 02:10:26,000
Speaker 1: do do okay with the Caps, or maybe they just

2344
02:10:26,000 --> 02:10:28,080
Speaker 1: stumbled into a Vechkin and didn't screw it up right.

2345
02:10:29,040 --> 02:10:31,080
Speaker 1: What I really want to ask is why is Nathan's

2346
02:10:31,120 --> 02:10:33,680
Speaker 1: Famous allowed to be bought by a Chinese company without

2347
02:10:33,760 --> 02:10:37,080
Speaker 1: much public discussion. It feels like a much more iconic

2348
02:10:37,120 --> 02:10:40,680
Speaker 1: American brand than others that sparked outrage like Tim Horton's

2349
02:10:41,200 --> 02:10:44,240
Speaker 1: well you're right, you know, the all American hot dog

2350
02:10:44,480 --> 02:10:48,880
Speaker 1: is now a Chinese own property. You know, what are

2351
02:10:48,920 --> 02:10:53,840
Speaker 1: you going to do next? You know, take over competitive eating.

2352
02:10:54,520 --> 02:10:57,760
Speaker 1: That's the American sport, competitive eating. We don't want no

2353
02:10:57,880 --> 02:11:05,280
Speaker 1: foreigners taking that, right. It's an excellent point. I can,

2354
02:11:05,360 --> 02:11:09,680
Speaker 1: I can, I actually pat our collective cells on the

2355
02:11:09,720 --> 02:11:12,600
Speaker 1: back that we didn't make that an outrage. I think

2356
02:11:12,720 --> 02:11:17,920
Speaker 1: in a slower news cycle, during the you know, the

2357
02:11:18,000 --> 02:11:21,200
Speaker 1: golden era of being outraged when Barack Obama wore a

2358
02:11:21,280 --> 02:11:24,680
Speaker 1: tan suit, this would have been the classic sort of

2359
02:11:25,360 --> 02:11:29,520
Speaker 1: manufactured outrage story that would have started on Fox and Friends,

2360
02:11:29,680 --> 02:11:34,720
Speaker 1: gravitated to Bill O'Reilly, and ended up, you know as

2361
02:11:35,400 --> 02:11:38,600
Speaker 1: as sort of the you know, firing everybody up over

2362
02:11:38,800 --> 02:11:41,800
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, then again, we all went crazy

2363
02:11:41,840 --> 02:11:43,680
Speaker 1: over cracker barrel. And look what that did, right, It

2364
02:11:43,760 --> 02:11:49,080
Speaker 1: made them change their logo. I can only say it's

2365
02:11:49,320 --> 02:11:52,600
Speaker 1: the timing of it just didn't catch our viral stupidity

2366
02:11:52,680 --> 02:11:55,360
Speaker 1: moment the way something like this could easily have been done.

2367
02:11:55,400 --> 02:12:00,440
Speaker 1: But I do think had this happened under Obama, I

2368
02:12:00,600 --> 02:12:04,440
Speaker 1: think we know, this would have been a good Fox

2369
02:12:04,520 --> 02:12:07,000
Speaker 1: story for at least a day or two, you know,

2370
02:12:07,160 --> 02:12:11,120
Speaker 1: We're losing America, We're losing the hot dog. What's next?

2371
02:12:11,200 --> 02:12:13,879
Speaker 1: Apple Mom and Apple Pie are going to become Chinese

2372
02:12:13,920 --> 02:12:19,360
Speaker 1: own entities too. Anyway, place appreciate the question and for

2373
02:12:19,480 --> 02:12:32,520
Speaker 1: the levity there, all right. I enjoyed. One of the

2374
02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:36,280
Speaker 1: other enjoyable things about doing doing a couple of public

2375
02:12:36,320 --> 02:12:39,360
Speaker 1: events is, you know, I get some get some podcast feedback.

2376
02:12:42,920 --> 02:12:46,200
Speaker 1: Some people love the college football, some people hate the

2377
02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:49,920
Speaker 1: college football. Everybody had an opinion about it.

2378
02:12:50,520 --> 02:12:50,600
Speaker 2: So.

2379
02:12:52,920 --> 02:12:54,720
Speaker 1: And I reassured them all that all of my sports

2380
02:12:54,760 --> 02:12:57,520
Speaker 1: reports will always be at the end of the podcast. Look,

2381
02:12:57,560 --> 02:12:59,000
Speaker 1: I just want to weigh in on something that I

2382
02:12:59,120 --> 02:13:01,480
Speaker 1: kind of wait in a couple of weeks ago that

2383
02:13:01,600 --> 02:13:05,240
Speaker 1: really got no little attention, and I didn't I'm not

2384
02:13:06,000 --> 02:13:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't looking for extra viral attention. And

2385
02:13:08,960 --> 02:13:10,800
Speaker 1: that was my rant about the Baseball Hall of Fame

2386
02:13:10,880 --> 02:13:15,800
Speaker 1: and sort of like, you know, I don't know Carlos Beltran,

2387
02:13:16,000 --> 02:13:17,800
Speaker 1: I guess and you know, we can have the conversation.

2388
02:13:17,920 --> 02:13:19,760
Speaker 1: And then it led to me sort of whining about

2389
02:13:19,800 --> 02:13:21,520
Speaker 1: how like I think all of the Halls of Fame

2390
02:13:21,600 --> 02:13:23,960
Speaker 1: have lost their way. And then I got a reaction

2391
02:13:24,120 --> 02:13:26,120
Speaker 1: from my son. He goes you know who loves when

2392
02:13:26,160 --> 02:13:28,960
Speaker 1: I do these sports reports, and he says, you know,

2393
02:13:29,040 --> 02:13:30,960
Speaker 1: I just I don't get that worked up about the

2394
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:33,920
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. I don't really care, you know, he is.

2395
02:13:34,200 --> 02:13:36,440
Speaker 1: I mean, we made a pledge that we're going to

2396
02:13:37,160 --> 02:13:39,440
Speaker 1: I've never been to Cooperstown, and neither is he. We're

2397
02:13:39,480 --> 02:13:44,800
Speaker 1: going to go to Cooperstown when Max Sureser is inducted. Literally,

2398
02:13:44,920 --> 02:13:49,440
Speaker 1: I was, you know, I was waiting to see him.

2399
02:13:50,080 --> 02:13:52,320
Speaker 1: I really believe had the Blue Jays won Game seven

2400
02:13:52,360 --> 02:13:53,960
Speaker 1: and he'd been the Game seven winner, that he was

2401
02:13:54,000 --> 02:13:57,960
Speaker 1: going to retire, and I was going to book that

2402
02:13:58,440 --> 02:14:02,400
Speaker 1: hotel room immediately for five years later, right to make

2403
02:14:02,480 --> 02:14:07,400
Speaker 1: them stout. But he's apparently he's gonna pull the the

2404
02:14:07,520 --> 02:14:13,280
Speaker 1: Roger clements and essentially stay in shape and be the

2405
02:14:13,840 --> 02:14:18,080
Speaker 1: a stop gap signing for some contender in May or

2406
02:14:18,200 --> 02:14:21,440
Speaker 1: June or July. And I get it, man. The guy loves,

2407
02:14:22,400 --> 02:14:26,240
Speaker 1: you know, and he you know, he wasn't the Max

2408
02:14:26,320 --> 02:14:29,920
Speaker 1: of the Nationals years, but he wasn't bad. And I

2409
02:14:30,080 --> 02:14:33,320
Speaker 1: love the guy. I enjoy watching him throw baseball and

2410
02:14:33,560 --> 02:14:37,560
Speaker 1: just hope he stalks the mound, those two different colored

2411
02:14:37,600 --> 02:14:41,840
Speaker 1: eyes staring at you and all that stuff. So to

2412
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:44,440
Speaker 1: say we're Max fans is an understatement. So we'll be there.

2413
02:14:44,480 --> 02:14:47,360
Speaker 1: Plus he's a big dog lover. You know, I always will.

2414
02:14:47,440 --> 02:14:49,840
Speaker 1: You know, if you're not a dog lover, I'm going

2415
02:14:49,920 --> 02:14:58,680
Speaker 1: to question your character. So so there's that. But I

2416
02:14:58,840 --> 02:15:02,800
Speaker 1: was it. It struck me that he said I just

2417
02:15:02,840 --> 02:15:04,600
Speaker 1: didn't really care. I used to care a ton about

2418
02:15:04,600 --> 02:15:06,920
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame when I was his age, you know,

2419
02:15:07,000 --> 02:15:09,560
Speaker 1: And there was something about the Baseball Hall of Fame

2420
02:15:09,680 --> 02:15:11,360
Speaker 1: and even the football Hall of Fame that felt like

2421
02:15:11,840 --> 02:15:13,800
Speaker 1: they always put the right people in in the right

2422
02:15:13,880 --> 02:15:15,760
Speaker 1: years and all that stuff, right, and you know there'd

2423
02:15:15,800 --> 02:15:19,160
Speaker 1: be and you know, baseball had the one penalty with

2424
02:15:19,240 --> 02:15:20,920
Speaker 1: Pete Rose, and it was like, all right, it was

2425
02:15:21,160 --> 02:15:24,200
Speaker 1: grounded in shoeless Joe Jackson, et cetera, et cetera. And

2426
02:15:24,280 --> 02:15:26,520
Speaker 1: I think the NFL had its own little gambling issue

2427
02:15:26,600 --> 02:15:28,520
Speaker 1: right when they banned Paul Hornig for a year and

2428
02:15:28,560 --> 02:15:33,520
Speaker 1: all that stuff. But you know, I was reading about

2429
02:15:33,520 --> 02:15:35,440
Speaker 1: how like the Hall of Fame just seemed they just

2430
02:15:35,520 --> 02:15:38,280
Speaker 1: feel out of touch. They don't they haven't figured out

2431
02:15:38,400 --> 02:15:44,200
Speaker 1: and you and then this Bill Belichick thing happened, and

2432
02:15:44,360 --> 02:15:47,280
Speaker 1: you know that sparked this huge outrage. You're like, if

2433
02:15:47,320 --> 02:15:49,840
Speaker 1: Bill Belichick's not a first ballot Hall of Famer, then

2434
02:15:49,920 --> 02:15:53,720
Speaker 1: who then who is right? If he can't pick? And

2435
02:15:53,800 --> 02:15:55,879
Speaker 1: then there were whispers that, oh, this was a penalty

2436
02:15:56,120 --> 02:15:58,800
Speaker 1: for spygate or to flake Gate, although I don't think

2437
02:15:58,840 --> 02:16:01,040
Speaker 1: he had any role into flake Gate, right, it would

2438
02:16:01,040 --> 02:16:07,600
Speaker 1: be Brady's Spygate would be him. I guess, well he

2439
02:16:07,720 --> 02:16:11,040
Speaker 1: was penalized, right, But is this steroids? Is this right? So?

2440
02:16:12,160 --> 02:16:15,200
Speaker 1: But what struck me and what continues to strike me,

2441
02:16:15,600 --> 02:16:21,960
Speaker 1: is the is the I just think who's in charge

2442
02:16:22,000 --> 02:16:24,040
Speaker 1: of the Hall of Fame and who gets to say

2443
02:16:24,840 --> 02:16:29,240
Speaker 1: is so bass Awkwards? If it wasn't for the fans,

2444
02:16:29,560 --> 02:16:32,640
Speaker 1: there wouldn't be any interest in having a Hall of Fame,

2445
02:16:33,520 --> 02:16:37,840
Speaker 1: And yet you have people that guard the criteria of

2446
02:16:37,879 --> 02:16:42,920
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame that is in contradiction to the fan.

2447
02:16:44,200 --> 02:16:48,920
Speaker 1: And ultimately, who drives anything in this sport, Who pays

2448
02:16:49,000 --> 02:16:52,800
Speaker 1: the who makes the salaries matter? Fan interest? It wouldn't

2449
02:16:52,840 --> 02:16:54,960
Speaker 1: for fan interest, there wouldn't be big media deals and

2450
02:16:54,959 --> 02:16:58,200
Speaker 1: they wouldn't have the money to pay these guys. The

2451
02:16:58,400 --> 02:17:03,160
Speaker 1: fans have no role at all in who even is

2452
02:17:03,240 --> 02:17:06,320
Speaker 1: even considered for the Hall of Fame or nominated for

2453
02:17:06,400 --> 02:17:09,480
Speaker 1: the Hall of Fame or any vote on it. And

2454
02:17:09,600 --> 02:17:12,080
Speaker 1: the Bellichick this is you know, and I know I

2455
02:17:12,160 --> 02:17:13,600
Speaker 1: ran it about this before and I got I'm going

2456
02:17:13,640 --> 02:17:18,080
Speaker 1: to ran about this again. You know, all of these

2457
02:17:18,160 --> 02:17:20,320
Speaker 1: hall the three big halls of fame, I don't. I

2458
02:17:20,400 --> 02:17:22,640
Speaker 1: don't know enough about the Hockey Hall of Fame in

2459
02:17:22,720 --> 02:17:27,120
Speaker 1: Toronto to weigh in and how they handle things. You know,

2460
02:17:27,240 --> 02:17:31,119
Speaker 1: I'll care if if somehow Ovechkin's not a first ballot.

2461
02:17:31,280 --> 02:17:34,200
Speaker 1: I can't imagine it won't be so however they work it.

2462
02:17:34,800 --> 02:17:36,760
Speaker 1: But I'm familiar with three of the Halls of Fame,

2463
02:17:38,400 --> 02:17:40,360
Speaker 1: the Pro Football of Fame, and again it's not run

2464
02:17:40,440 --> 02:17:42,720
Speaker 1: by the NFL Pro Football of Fame, although I would

2465
02:17:42,760 --> 02:17:47,400
Speaker 1: argue the NFL get its hands on it. The Baseball

2466
02:17:47,400 --> 02:17:52,640
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and the Basketball Hall of Fame. There's

2467
02:17:52,680 --> 02:17:54,800
Speaker 1: something about the Basketball Hall of Fame that I like,

2468
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:59,600
Speaker 1: the idea that they they're the Basketball Hall of Fame,

2469
02:17:59,800 --> 02:18:04,120
Speaker 1: and they sometimes induct pro basketball players or college basketball players,

2470
02:18:04,600 --> 02:18:08,160
Speaker 1: college coaches, and you know, they're honoring all of basketball.

2471
02:18:10,640 --> 02:18:13,440
Speaker 1: I wouldn't mind to see football try that or baseball

2472
02:18:13,520 --> 02:18:15,800
Speaker 1: try that. Meaning you're you're the Hall of Fame for

2473
02:18:15,879 --> 02:18:21,360
Speaker 1: the sport, not a league. Right, of course, basketball had

2474
02:18:21,560 --> 02:18:26,440
Speaker 1: literally two competitive leagues for a while, ABA NBA. So,

2475
02:18:27,720 --> 02:18:31,240
Speaker 1: but we've got to do something about this, because it

2476
02:18:33,000 --> 02:18:35,879
Speaker 1: if the fans stop believe in the Hall of Fame

2477
02:18:36,040 --> 02:18:40,959
Speaker 1: has any relevance, nobody's going to go nobody's going to care,

2478
02:18:41,120 --> 02:18:42,640
Speaker 1: and these things are just going to go away, and

2479
02:18:42,680 --> 02:18:45,440
Speaker 1: they're just you know, it's no different than putting up

2480
02:18:45,480 --> 02:18:49,600
Speaker 1: a podcast saying well, here's my fifty greatest NFL players,

2481
02:18:49,640 --> 02:18:54,480
Speaker 1: here's my you know, Hall of Fame or his. But

2482
02:18:54,640 --> 02:18:57,800
Speaker 1: all of these halls of fame need to figure out

2483
02:18:57,840 --> 02:19:02,000
Speaker 1: how to how to give fans a role, you know,

2484
02:19:02,080 --> 02:19:05,160
Speaker 1: whether it's in the nominating process, who should be on

2485
02:19:05,320 --> 02:19:09,640
Speaker 1: the ballot in a given year, who shouldn't be, you know,

2486
02:19:09,840 --> 02:19:14,800
Speaker 1: some percentage of the vote. I don't know what the

2487
02:19:14,920 --> 02:19:19,080
Speaker 1: Pro Football Hall of Fame voting process is so weird

2488
02:19:19,200 --> 02:19:23,440
Speaker 1: and byzantine. My friend Peter King, I think I might

2489
02:19:24,000 --> 02:19:25,640
Speaker 1: see if I can get him on the podcast. He's

2490
02:19:25,640 --> 02:19:29,760
Speaker 1: been on a previous version, previous iterations of it, and

2491
02:19:29,840 --> 02:19:33,160
Speaker 1: I've done his, we've done he was one time on it.

2492
02:19:33,360 --> 02:19:36,840
Speaker 1: I'd love to understand how it works, but that's the point.

2493
02:19:37,800 --> 02:19:41,760
Speaker 1: But they've again they keep the fans out of it completely.

2494
02:19:42,080 --> 02:19:44,640
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying the fans should have but there

2495
02:19:44,680 --> 02:19:51,280
Speaker 1: should be and I go back, fans, right, journalists, players

2496
02:19:54,760 --> 02:19:58,240
Speaker 1: and coaches, Executives and coaches right, all four of those

2497
02:19:58,440 --> 02:20:03,280
Speaker 1: entities would have a say. One entity shouldn't have more

2498
02:20:03,360 --> 02:20:07,160
Speaker 1: say over the other, but all of them should have

2499
02:20:07,280 --> 02:20:12,160
Speaker 1: some say because they all. You know, it is again

2500
02:20:12,600 --> 02:20:16,600
Speaker 1: the word fame is f is for famous, not best.

2501
02:20:16,720 --> 02:20:22,920
Speaker 1: We don't say, you know, if it was the greatest players,

2502
02:20:22,959 --> 02:20:25,880
Speaker 1: wou'd say home of the greatest players. It's all of fame.

2503
02:20:25,959 --> 02:20:30,440
Speaker 1: Now it's become synonymous with the best, but it is fame,

2504
02:20:31,200 --> 02:20:37,560
Speaker 1: and part of that is part of qualifying is public interest.

2505
02:20:39,879 --> 02:20:43,000
Speaker 1: And this is one of those where you know, they

2506
02:20:43,080 --> 02:20:45,600
Speaker 1: created some new you know, it turns out it's it's

2507
02:20:45,600 --> 02:20:48,280
Speaker 1: not necessary. It might be less about Belichick personally and

2508
02:20:48,360 --> 02:20:52,000
Speaker 1: more about the convoluted way that they want to consider

2509
02:20:52,080 --> 02:20:56,000
Speaker 1: because they play internal politics. You know, if players don't

2510
02:20:56,000 --> 02:20:58,800
Speaker 1: make it through one process, then they get a second chance,

2511
02:20:58,920 --> 02:21:02,560
Speaker 1: and then there's a third chance and all this stuff.

2512
02:21:03,600 --> 02:21:05,920
Speaker 1: But it's because the system was flowed in the first place,

2513
02:21:06,200 --> 02:21:08,280
Speaker 1: and how they did thea if they always had the

2514
02:21:08,400 --> 02:21:11,360
Speaker 1: electorate broke it up with all the different stakeholders, having

2515
02:21:11,560 --> 02:21:14,280
Speaker 1: some say, I don't think they have as many of

2516
02:21:14,360 --> 02:21:19,880
Speaker 1: these screw ups. And look with baseball, they just not

2517
02:21:20,600 --> 02:21:24,800
Speaker 1: handled the steroids thing correctly. They just haven't because they've

2518
02:21:24,800 --> 02:21:26,640
Speaker 1: put too many people in that we all know did

2519
02:21:26,720 --> 02:21:28,600
Speaker 1: but just were never proven to do it. And they've

2520
02:21:28,680 --> 02:21:30,120
Speaker 1: kept a couple of people out that we all know

2521
02:21:30,160 --> 02:21:31,840
Speaker 1: would have been Hall of famers before they took it.

2522
02:21:31,879 --> 02:21:35,040
Speaker 1: If they did it. Bairy bonds right, and you're just like,

2523
02:21:35,280 --> 02:21:38,240
Speaker 1: you know, and then there's just well this person was

2524
02:21:38,360 --> 02:21:40,160
Speaker 1: mentioned in the Mitchell Report, this person once. And then

2525
02:21:40,200 --> 02:21:45,000
Speaker 1: there's like Belichick. Really, you know, every coach is trying

2526
02:21:45,040 --> 02:21:47,600
Speaker 1: to get an edge. You know. The thing about Belichick

2527
02:21:49,440 --> 02:21:53,520
Speaker 1: is he was the guy that didn't read the rule.

2528
02:21:53,680 --> 02:21:55,760
Speaker 1: He read the rule book to find out what didn't

2529
02:21:55,800 --> 02:22:01,000
Speaker 1: they think of and he and he always found loopholes

2530
02:22:01,400 --> 02:22:04,560
Speaker 1: or gaps in the rules and he'd take advantage of it.

2531
02:22:09,200 --> 02:22:10,840
Speaker 1: There's a point, and then he got caught and he

2532
02:22:10,879 --> 02:22:20,040
Speaker 1: got punished. But I don't think they fully appreciate sort

2533
02:22:20,080 --> 02:22:25,960
Speaker 1: of like how they diminish everything when somebody who's you know,

2534
02:22:26,080 --> 02:22:29,360
Speaker 1: got to burn up their ass about it and has

2535
02:22:29,440 --> 02:22:32,520
Speaker 1: the power to do something about it. You know, it's

2536
02:22:32,560 --> 02:22:36,800
Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, it's like they finally can

2537
02:22:36,879 --> 02:22:43,560
Speaker 1: get their revenge. It's like to what end. So I,

2538
02:22:43,840 --> 02:22:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, the whole thing's a mess. And I and again,

2539
02:22:46,640 --> 02:22:50,040
Speaker 1: I don't think an individual did this. I do the more,

2540
02:22:50,160 --> 02:22:52,560
Speaker 1: you know, everybody wanted to jump on one person, I

2541
02:22:52,720 --> 02:22:55,960
Speaker 1: think that was that was BS. I think the issue

2542
02:22:56,120 --> 02:22:58,720
Speaker 1: was how this system worked. If go read up Mike

2543
02:22:58,800 --> 02:23:01,880
Speaker 1: Sando of the Athletic but talked about how there was

2544
02:23:01,920 --> 02:23:04,520
Speaker 1: only like three spots and then you have to get

2545
02:23:04,600 --> 02:23:08,880
Speaker 1: forty percent. I mean, there's just like it's it's like

2546
02:23:08,959 --> 02:23:11,560
Speaker 1: algebra to try to figure out how the hell somebody

2547
02:23:11,640 --> 02:23:13,720
Speaker 1: gets qualifies to get into the Hall of Fame if

2548
02:23:13,720 --> 02:23:15,800
Speaker 1: they're not a player, but on this other sub ballot

2549
02:23:16,360 --> 02:23:23,000
Speaker 1: veteran players, coaches and just oh my god, they've done

2550
02:23:23,040 --> 02:23:27,360
Speaker 1: all this. And again, the single most important entity that

2551
02:23:27,480 --> 02:23:30,520
Speaker 1: has made the Hall of Fame vote even relevant to

2552
02:23:30,640 --> 02:23:34,960
Speaker 1: anybody is fan interest. And they're the ones that have

2553
02:23:35,320 --> 02:23:40,080
Speaker 1: zero say in any of this. So I beg these

2554
02:23:40,160 --> 02:23:44,240
Speaker 1: Halls of Fame figure out how to engage the public

2555
02:23:44,360 --> 02:23:46,920
Speaker 1: and the actual fan base, not to just show up

2556
02:23:47,720 --> 02:23:50,680
Speaker 1: but to be an actual participant in some form or another,

2557
02:23:51,800 --> 02:23:55,280
Speaker 1: because I think you could bring more credibility to the

2558
02:23:55,360 --> 02:24:00,120
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame with all fans, and not just at

2559
02:24:00,160 --> 02:24:04,760
Speaker 1: a hall of fame that makes a handful of people happy.

2560
02:24:05,720 --> 02:24:13,920
Speaker 1: All right, what about college football? Enjoy your weekend. I

2561
02:24:14,000 --> 02:24:19,800
Speaker 1: will see you next month, right, because technically the calendar

2562
02:24:19,879 --> 02:24:26,480
Speaker 1: flips and the long winter gets shortened with our shortest month.

2563
02:24:26,920 --> 02:24:28,520
Speaker 1: So with that, I'll see you. I mad