WEBVTT - Is It Time to Unfriend Facebook? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.280 Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.960 Heart Radio and Katie Kuric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie 0:00:06.000 --> 0:00:08.760 Curic and welcome to Next Question, where we try to 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.560 understand the complicated world we're living in and the crazy 0:00:12.680 --> 0:00:16.759 things that are happening by asking questions and by listening 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.160 to people who really know what they're talking about. At times, 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:24.240 it may lead to some pretty uncomfortable conversations, but stick 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:33.640 with me, everyone, let's all learn together. More than two 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.240 point one billion people use Facebook or one of its 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:42.040 services like Instagram or What's App every single day. That's 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:46.479 nearly one third of the entire world's population. But recently 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.560 the company has gone from the brilliant brainchild of a 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.880 Harvard dropout named Mark Zuckerberg to one of the most 0:00:52.920 --> 0:00:56.920 controversial companies on the planet. He was recently grilled on 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:00.360 Capitol hilld by members of Congress concerned about the plat forms, 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:05.520 increasing footprint, and almost every aspect of our lives. Sure, 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:09.560 Facebook can bring communities together, help you share photos with 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:13.240 your family, and even start movements, but it can also 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:18.600 unfairly impact elections, spread misinformation, create a safe space for 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:23.080 child pornographers, and white supremacists, invade our privacy, exploit our 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:27.160 personal information, and increase the deep divisions of our already 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.160 polarized nation. That's quite a laundry list, isn't it, And 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:35.440 with the election fast approaching, you may be wondering if 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.200 it might be deja vu all over again, and worried that, 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:42.080 to borrow a phrase from the nineteen sixty six movie 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.319 The Russians Are Coming, The Russians are Coming, not to 0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:49.720 mention China and other foreign powers, and the company's recent 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.360 decision not to fact check political ads lead to a 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:57.320 heated debate on social media between Zuckerberg and Democratic presidential 0:01:57.360 --> 0:02:00.800 candidate Elizabeth Warren, who set the platform had become a 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.760 quote disinformation for profit machine, and she even placed an 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.320 ad on Facebook sayt Zuckerberg was supporting Trump for president 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.800 to test if it would be removed. It wasn't. Meanwhile, 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:16.839 more than two hundred and fifty of its own employees 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.560 signed an open letter warning that the ad policy is 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:24.960 quote a threat to what Facebook stands for. So I 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.359 was impressed that the company CEO, Cheryl Sandberg was willing 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:31.079 to sit down with me recently at the Vanity Fair 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.919 New Establishment conference in Los Angeles. She's been with the 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:38.320 company since two thousand eleven and has played a pivotal 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.760 role in shaping both its culture and its business strategy, 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:45.480 leading it to more than twenty two billion dollars in 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:49.160 profits last year. She's also an advocate for women in 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:52.919 the workplace with her two thousand thirteen book and organization 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.920 Lean In. And I got to know Cheryl after her husband, Dave, 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:01.520 died unexpectedly in two thousand fifteen. She reached out because 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:04.840 I too had lost my husband at an early age. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.200 Cheryl wrote a book about her experience, called Option B, 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:12.040 and I interviewed her for that back in two thousand seventeen. 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:15.400 If you're interested, you can find that interview in my feed. 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.760 Our recent conversation at the Vanity Fair summit got a 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.400 lot of attention, and I thought it made sense to 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:24.680 share it with all of you on my podcast. So 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:29.000 my next question for Cheryl Sandberg is Facebook doing enough 0:03:29.040 --> 0:03:34.040 to protect it's more than two billion users and our democracy? 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:39.640 Or is it time to unfriend Facebook? Cheryl, thank you 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:42.720 for being here. We have a lot to talk about, 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.080 as you know, so let's get right to it. We're 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.920 just over a year from the election. Three hundred and 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:51.680 seventy eight days to be exactly who's counting? Yeah, But 0:03:52.080 --> 0:03:57.640 I think the way Facebook addresses and fixes the platform 0:03:57.680 --> 0:03:59.840 that was used in two thousand and sixteen is seen 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.720 is a major, critically important test. I know certain measures 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:06.560 have in fact been implemented, for example, thirty five thousand 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:11.240 moderators looking for fake accounts and suspicious patterns. Mark Zuckerberg 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:15.320 announced news safeguards like labeling media outlets that are state controlled. 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:17.920 But do you believe that's enough? I mean, do you 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.080 really seriously believe that we won't witness the kind of 0:04:21.160 --> 0:04:25.840 widespread interference we saw in two thousand sixteen. Well, we're 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:28.039 gonna do everything we can to prevent it. Um. I 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.280 do think we're in a very different place. So if 0:04:30.279 --> 0:04:34.480 you think back to we had protections against state actors, 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.440 but when you thought about state actors going against a 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:41.560 technology platform, what you thought of was hacking the Sony emails, 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.360 the DNC emails, stealing information. And that's what our defenses 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.720 were really set up to prevent, and so were everyone 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:51.800 Else's what we totally missed, and it is on us 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:56.400 from missing it, and everyone missed. This was not stealing information, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:59.719 but going in and writing fake stuff was a totally 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:02.160 diff threat and our systems weren't set up to deal 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:04.800 with it. So the question is as you're asking, what 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:06.800 are we doing going forward and how are we going 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.600 into the election? And how did we do in and 0:05:10.600 --> 0:05:13.520 we're in a totally different place. The FBI has a 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.919 task force on this. They didn't have anyone working on it. 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:19.520 Homeland Security is working on it, all the tech companies 0:05:19.560 --> 0:05:22.480 are working together, because when you try to interfere on 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:26.160 one platform, you try to interfere on another. In Sten, 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.120 we didn't know what this threat was in We did 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.800 one takedown. In the last year, we did fifty and 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.560 I read a shocking number. You took down more than 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:41.320 two point two billion fake accounts in a three month. 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.039 That's right. We take down millions every day. So thirty 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:49.520 moderators is that even enough? Given I mean two point 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.720 two billion is almost the number of people who are 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:55.440 on the platform. So the moderators are looking for content. 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.359 The fake accounts are being found with engineering. That's the 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.960 only way to find those fake account Most of those 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.960 are found before anyone ever sees them. And fake accounts 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:07.960 are a really important point here because everything that was 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:12.440 done by Russia in everything was done under a fake account. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.000 So if you can find the fake accounts, you often 0:06:15.040 --> 0:06:17.840 find the root of the problem. And so we are 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:21.560 now taking down millions every day, almost all of which 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:25.200 no one has seen. You talked about disrupting fifty individual 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.480 campaigns from multiple nation states so far. But what about 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:34.800 domestic threats. Facebook's own former security chief Alex Stamos has said, quote, 0:06:35.080 --> 0:06:37.840 what I expect is that the Russian playbook is going 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:41.280 to be executed inside of the US by domestic groups, 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.320 in which case some of it, other than hacking, is 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:48.039 not illegal. My real fear, he says, is that in 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:51.760 it's going to be the battle of the billionaires of 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:55.479 secret groups working for people aligned on both sides who 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.479 are trying to manipulate us at scale online. So what 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.520 is face spook doing to defend the platform against this 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:06.200 kind of domestic threat. It's a really good question, because 0:07:06.240 --> 0:07:10.600 things are against our policies if they're fraudulent or fake accounts, 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.400 but people can also kind of deceive. Again, if you 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.960 look at where we were and where we are, the 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:20.160 transparency is dramatically different. So you look on every page 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.119 on Facebook, you can now see the origin of where 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:25.760 the person is. So if someone is has a page 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:29.040 that's called I don't know us whatever, but they're from 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:32.080 the Ukraine, it's clearly marked that. If you look at 0:07:32.120 --> 0:07:35.040 our ad library we didn't have this last time, you 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:38.240 can see any political ad running actually anywhere in the 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:40.640 country or in most places of the world, even if 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:43.480 they're not targeted to you. So before, if they were 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.320 trying to reach you, you could see it, but you 0:07:45.320 --> 0:07:48.320 couldn't see anything else. Now you can see everything. And 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:51.080 we rolled out on Presidential ad Tracker so that you 0:07:51.080 --> 0:07:55.240 can see the presidential campaigns much more holistically. So with 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:58.840 the transparency measures we have, people should be able to 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.080 be trying to get rid of the accounts and the 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:04.360 ones that are legitimate, whether they run domestically or globally. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:07.560 Make sure people understand who the people are behind what 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:11.960 they're seeing. But then why did Facebook announced not to 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:15.800 fact check political ads last month? I know the Rand 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:19.200 Corporation actually has a term for this, which is truth decay. 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:23.760 And Mark himself has defended this decision even as he 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:28.560 expressed concern about the erosion of truth online. So what 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.160 is the rationale for that? And I know you're gonna 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.000 say we're not a news organization. We're a platform. I'm 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.280 not going to say that, but it's a really important question, 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:40.200 and I'm really glad to have a chance to take 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:42.160 a beat and really think about it and talk about it. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:45.480 So one of the most controversial things out there right 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:48.720 now is what adds do we take? What ads do 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.320 others take? And do we fact check political ads? And 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.240 it is a hard conversation and emotions are running very 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:57.720 high on this. I also sit here realizing it's however 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:00.880 many days you said before the election. So the ads 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.480 that are controversial now we have not even seen the 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:05.000 beginning of what we're going to see. There are going 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.360 to be a lot of controversial ads and controversial speech. 0:09:08.760 --> 0:09:11.360 So why are we doing this. It's not for the money. 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.680 Let's start there. This is a very small part of 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.720 our revenue five percent or something. We don't release the numbers, 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.920 but it's very small, very small, and it is very controversial. 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:23.760 We're not doing this for the money. We take political 0:09:23.800 --> 0:09:26.880 ads because we really believe they are part of political 0:09:26.960 --> 0:09:31.520 discourse and that taking political ads means that people can speak. 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:33.960 If you look at this over time, the people who 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.520 have most benefited from being able to run ads are 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:39.840 people who are not covered by the media so they 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:43.640 can't get their message out otherwise, people who are challenging 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.680 and incumbent so they are a challenger, and people who 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.720 have different points of view. That's that's been true historically. 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:52.360 And so we also have this issue that if we 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.959 let's say we took political ads off the service, we 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:57.800 would still have all the issue ads. So I'm running 0:09:57.800 --> 0:09:59.800 an AD on gender equality, I'm running an AD on 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:03.040 an other political issue. Those ads are much much much 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:06.040 bigger in terms of scope than the political ads, so 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:08.800 you would have every voice in the debate except the 0:10:08.840 --> 0:10:13.320 politicians themselves. So instead, what we're doing is as much 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.280 transparency as possible. Every ad has to be marked by 0:10:16.280 --> 0:10:19.160 who paid for it. We're doing verification to make sure 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:22.200 the people that say they're paid and that adds library 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.480 I started talking about is really important because you can't hide. 0:10:25.800 --> 0:10:28.160 You can't run one ad in one state, one add 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.600 and another, one add to one group, one add to another. 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.600 Anyone can go into that library and see any ad 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:37.560 that any politician is running anywhere. Well, this is what 0:10:37.800 --> 0:10:40.760 Nita Gupta wrote, the former head of the dj Civil 0:10:40.880 --> 0:10:44.959 Rights Division, and Politico simply put she wrote, while major 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:49.680 news organizations are strengthening fact checking and accountability, Facebook is saying, 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:53.880 if you are a politician who wishes to pedal in lies, distortion, 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:58.040 and not so subtle racial appeals, welcome to our platform. 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:02.160 You will not be fact check you are automatically newsworthy. 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:06.520 You're automatically exempt from scrutiny. So I know of Anita, 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.440 and I've had a chance to speak to her since 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.880 she since she posted that, and I think the debate 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:13.160 is really important. I've had a chance to work with 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.080 her on our civil rights work. We've taken a lot 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:18.120 of feedback from her and already continue which she was 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:20.640 writing there was not only about ads, it was really 0:11:20.679 --> 0:11:23.720 about content on the platform. So taking a step back, 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.840 here's what we do. When you write something. We have 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:30.720 a very strong free expression bent. We think it's very 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.880 important that we judge as little as possible and let 0:11:33.920 --> 0:11:37.360 people express themselves. But we don't allow anything on the platform. 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:42.160 If something is hate, terrorism, violence, bullying, you know, hate 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:44.920 against protective classes, it comes down we take it off, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:50.320 voter suppression. If something is false, misinformation, fake news, we 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:52.679 don't take it off. We send it to third party 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.120 fact checkers. If they market as false. We market as false. 0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.640 If you go to share it and it's marked as false, 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:00.199 we warn you with a pop up and we say, 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.080 do you want to share this it's been marked as false? 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.880 We dramatically decrease distribution, so we decrease it to about 0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.840 and we show related articles. How can you possibly do 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:14.880 that with two point seven billion users? How can you 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:20.079 possibly keep up with all the content that's being produced 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.720 on Facebook and distributed and shared, etcetera. We can't fact 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:26.719 check everything. We're not trying to fact check everything or 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:29.400 send everything to third party fact checkers at all. We 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.600 prioritize in terms of what's going most quickly. So when 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:34.920 something is growing really quickly, it gets referred, it goes 0:12:35.000 --> 0:12:37.160 to the top of the heap sending it to fact checkers. 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.719 And these are really news links. You know, if you're 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.800 a bad example because you're a media journalist, but you know, 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.280 if my sister writes a post about her kids and 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:48.560 her dogs, which she does all the time, that's not 0:12:48.600 --> 0:12:52.600 getting fact check. That said, the challenges of scale here 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.920 are really important, and in a lot of the areas 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.720 where we are reluctant to weigh in, it's because we 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.520 know we can't do this well at scale, so we 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.400 have to rely on other sources. I think one of 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.480 the most important things we're rolling out in the next 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.280 year is our Content Advisory Board. We understand that there 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.640 are real concerns with the amount of power and control 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.480 we have that right now we are the ultimate arbiters 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:17.959 of what stays on our service, and so we're setting 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.560 up a content review board. The final charter has just 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:24.160 been released. We've consulted with over a thousand experts around 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.239 the world and they're going to be forty people appointed 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:28.800 and by next year they're going to start hearing cases. 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:30.920 They don't report to me, they don't report to Mark. 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.880 It means that if you disagree and something was pulled 0:13:34.920 --> 0:13:36.520 down and you think it should be up, or if 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.520 you disagree and we are letting something run from someone else, 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:42.440 that you don't think, you have a place to go 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.920 and we're going to abide by their decisions. Since two 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.600 thirds of people get their news and information now from 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:51.720 social media, do you have any responsibility in your view 0:13:51.920 --> 0:13:55.680 to at least attempt to make sure that the news 0:13:55.760 --> 0:14:01.080 on your platform is factual? Because oftentimes I've heard, well, 0:14:01.080 --> 0:14:04.560 we're a platform, we're not a publisher, right, and so 0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.640 we're basically the pipes. So where do you see your 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:10.600 responsibility in terms of that? So we do think we 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:13.599 have a responsibility for fake news and misinformation? Would you 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.560 say you're not a publisher? Still, well, what would you 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.520 call it? So that is a complicated thing and it 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.720 means different things to different people. Here's what we are. 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:24.600 We are a technology company. A lot of things are 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.040 published on us. But what I think when people ask 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:30.400 that question, they're wondering if we take responsibility for what's 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.920 on our service. And my answer to you is is yes, 0:14:33.360 --> 0:14:35.520 we're not a publisher in the traditional sense because we 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.480 don't have editors who are fact checking, but we take 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:43.480 responsibility and what we've done on misinformation has decreased people's interactions. 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:46.480 Stanford just published a study there down by more than half. 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.880 Since it's not perfect, we're not able to fact check everything. 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:54.240 But we had no policies against this in the last election, 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.400 and you fast forward to today. I think we are 0:14:56.440 --> 0:15:00.440 in an imperfect but a much stronger position. Let's talk 0:15:00.440 --> 0:15:04.320 about the free speech rationale at Georgetown. Mark used Martin 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:07.480 Luther King Jr's name and his defense of free speech 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:11.280 on Facebook, but King's daughter, Bernice tweeted, I'd like to 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:15.800 help Facebook better understand the challenges that MLK faced from 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:21.880 disinformation campaigns launched by politicians. These campaigns created an atmosphere 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.760 for his assassination. And then Sherylyn Eiffel, as you know, 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.760 president of the n double a CP Legal Defense Fund, 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.440 called his speech quote a profound misreading of the civil 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:36.320 rights movement in America and a dangerous misunderstanding of the 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:41.960 political and digital landscape we now inhabit. It was a 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:45.640 controversial speech, and I think the civil rights concerns are 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.280 very real. Um. In terms of Bernice King, you know her, 0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.080 her father's legacy, I know her. I actually spoke to 0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:56.760 her after that tweet, totally scheduled separately. She's coming to 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.600 Facebook tomorrow and I'm going to be in your chair interviewing, 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:02.280 and then I'm hoasting her for dinner tomorrow night. And 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.320 what I told her is what I'll say to you, 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:06.320 which is that I was grateful she published. We would 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.360 have liked her to push on Facebook, not just tweet, 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.160 but we were grateful she spoke out because this is 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.400 the dialogue we want to have. And she actually tweeted 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.760 again this morning that she heard from Mark and is 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:19.840 looking forward to sitting down and talking with him civil rights. 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:25.080 She's smooth, isn't she. I mean, these are just facts, 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:28.320 she tweeted. You can check again to my friend Vernice. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.680 We'd like you to post on our platform too. But 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:34.600 this is the dialogue, right, there's a lot of disagreement. 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.360 Civil rights and protecting civil rights are hugely important to Mark, 0:16:38.440 --> 0:16:41.440 hugely important to me. I'm personally leading the civil rights 0:16:41.440 --> 0:16:43.880 work at Facebook and we'll continue to do that. And 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.120 while we don't agree with everything, and there was certainly 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.680 disagreement over some of Mark's speech, there were other things 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.120 that we've done because we've listened and learned to them 0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:54.720 over the last year, that I think they feel really 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:58.400 good about. We've taken much stronger steps on hate, looked 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:01.720 at white nationalism and white separatism because they informed us 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.840 of it. We've really come down on a very strong 0:17:04.880 --> 0:17:08.840 policy on voter suppression. We are taking down voter suppression 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.280 as hate. If you publish you know the polls are 0:17:11.320 --> 0:17:14.679 open on Wednesday, not Tuesday. We're taking that down because 0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.880 it's as important to us as hate. And that's all 0:17:16.920 --> 0:17:19.800 based on work, And so why is voter suppression more 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:24.720 important than voter misinformation. It's not. It's not more important. 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:27.040 It's just a question of how we handle it when 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:31.440 we have misinformation. What we believe is that unless it's hate, 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.800 are going to lead to real world violence, we need 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.199 to let the debate continue. We dial massively down the 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:39.720 distribution to As I said, we don't want things to 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.040 go viral. We mark them as false, but then we 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.399 publish related articles. Here's the other side of the story. 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.480 We think that's how people get informed that it's the 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.959 discourse about the discourse. It is market giving a speech 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:56.359 and Bernice King disagreeing with it publicly, and that dialogue 0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.359 that matters. Whereas if it's hate or if someone's really 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.400 going to show up to the polls the wrong day, 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:03.600 we just want to take it off our service. And 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:08.520 this is really hard because one person will think something 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.439 is clearly just they really disagree with it, and we 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:15.960 do too, but they think it's someone else's free expression, 0:18:16.040 --> 0:18:18.280 and so these lines are going to continue to be 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:21.080 really hard to draw. Do you really think that people 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:24.400 use Facebook as an opportunity to look at both sides 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:27.560 and to see something when it's corrected, or don't you 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:30.480 think that people are getting stuff in their feed that 0:18:30.920 --> 0:18:34.159 is really affirmation that information. And I'm so glad you 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.399 asked this because there's actually really strong data here and 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:40.240 no one understands this. So when you think about your 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:44.840 contacts in the world, psychologists, you have what's called um 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:48.040 your tight circle of contacts and then your broader circle 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.800 of contact. So you basically can keep in touch with 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:55.200 five to seven people. That's your mom, your daughter's, your husband, John, 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.159 the people who you know where they are. What Facebook 0:18:58.560 --> 0:19:00.560 enables you to do is keep in top with many 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.000 more people. Without Facebook, without social media, without Instagram, Twitter, 0:19:04.280 --> 0:19:06.400 you won't hear from your college friends or the people 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:10.160 you grew up with that often. So if you compare 0:19:10.200 --> 0:19:12.960 people who do not use social media for people who do, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.399 the people who use social media see much more broad 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:19.800 points of view because if you don't use social media, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:22.320 you go to maybe one or two news outlets. They 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:24.280 have one particular point of view. You read one or 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:27.440 two newspapers, and that's it. On Facebook, you will see, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.000 on average of the stuff you see a news will 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.320 be from another point of view, which means it's not 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.000 half and half, but it is broadening of your views. 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:38.600 And that's something that I don't think we've we've been 0:19:38.640 --> 0:19:41.359 able to explain to other people really understand. And the 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.320 reason for that is if you go to your news feed, 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.600 you don't see like half blue and half read. You 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:50.520 just see about more from the other side than you 0:19:50.680 --> 0:19:54.880 otherwise would. So it is unequivocally true that Facebook usage 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.280 and usage of social media shows you broader points of view, 0:19:58.280 --> 0:20:00.359 not narrower points of view than you would see otherwise. 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:03.119 And that's something no one understands. When we come back, 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:07.280 we take a deep dive into the rise of deep fakes, 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.439 Facebook's role in the increasing polarization of our country and 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:15.280 what the consequences should be if the company doesn't put 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:24.080 the proper safeguards in place for presidential election. Let's talk 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.440 about the free speech argument, which came under attack earlier 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.439 this year when Facebook decided not to take down that 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.280 doctored video of how speaker Nancy Pelosi. Her speech was 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.800 slowed down, it made her appear to be slurring her words, 0:20:37.960 --> 0:20:41.119 that people thought she was drunk. You defended the decision 0:20:41.200 --> 0:20:43.680 by saying, we think the only way to fight bad 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.560 information is with good information, and you said it had 0:20:46.600 --> 0:20:49.679 been marked as false but at that point, Cheryl, it 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.240 had been viewed two point five million times. So isn't 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.560 the damage already done at that point, like when you 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:59.320 do a correction in the newspaper two days later in 0:20:59.440 --> 0:21:03.800 tiny on page two. And studies have shown if you 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:08.160 see the false story enough and the correction fewer times, 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:11.160 than the false story actually stays in your head. Not 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:14.240 to mention, another study by m I t that fake 0:21:14.320 --> 0:21:18.439 news spreads seventy times faster than real news on Twitter. 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:22.359 So I guess, isn't the current standard operating procedure on 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:25.520 videos like this a case of too little, too late? 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:27.639 I think what the Plosi video it was, and we 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.359 have said that publicly our fact checkers moved way to 0:21:30.760 --> 0:21:33.119 the process and not the fact checkers. The process for 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:35.080 getting it to them and getting it back moved way 0:21:35.080 --> 0:21:37.679 too slowly, and we've made a change in how we 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:40.479 do that to prioritize things that are moving quickly and 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.440 massively cut down the review time. In that case, we 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.600 should have caught it way earlier. We think you're right, 0:21:45.640 --> 0:21:47.760 and we want our systems to work more because now 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:51.200 the technology allows people to appear that they're doing something 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:54.240 and are saying something other than what they're actually saying. 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:56.159 I mean, how do you keep up with all of 0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:58.840 those things? Well, deep fakes is what you're talking about. 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:00.560 It is a new and emerging and that's when I'm 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:02.600 met deep. Yeah. And it's a new and emerging area, 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:05.719 and it is definitely one that we don't believe we 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:07.800 know everything about because we don't even know what they're 0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:09.920