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Speaker 1: If success is this lagging indicator of commitment, Now, how

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Speaker 1: can you be sure that you are paying your dues?

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Speaker 1: Best selling author on the Post the number one health

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Speaker 1: and well iness.

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Speaker 2: Podcast On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one

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Speaker 3: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every

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Speaker 3: one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier,

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Speaker 3: and more healed. Today, I'm talking to a guest who

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Speaker 3: I've had the pleasure of interviewing. I think I think

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Speaker 3: this is the fourth or fifth time that I'm getting

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Speaker 3: to sit down with him, probably the person I've interviewed

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Speaker 3: the most in my entire interviewing career, and it's because

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Speaker 3: he keeps putting out incredible work and incredible books that

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Speaker 3: I hope you're going to read. I'm talking about Ryan Holiday,

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Speaker 3: who's one of the world's best selling living philosophers. Ryan's books,

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Speaker 3: like his new One Discipline Is Destiny, which is available

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Speaker 3: right now number one New York Times best sellers multiple

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Speaker 3: some of my favorite ones, The Obstacle is the Way,

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Speaker 3: Ego is the Enemy, the Daily Stoic, and they've been

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Speaker 3: translated into over forty languages and sold multi millions of copies.

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to talk to Ryan today about this

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Speaker 3: new book, The Power of Self Control. I know it's

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Speaker 3: been out for a bit, but this is a topic

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Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by. If you don't already have this book,

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Speaker 3: go and grab it. If you have on, go and

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Speaker 3: grab one for a friend. Ryan, thank you for being

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Speaker 3: back on the show. Yeah, it's always great, man, it's great.

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Speaker 3: I remember when I first met you. It was such

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Speaker 3: an inspiration for me because seeing you uncover stoicism for

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Speaker 3: the modern world definitely was parallel to how I felt

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Speaker 3: about what I wanted to do for Vedic knowledge and

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Speaker 3: Vadic wisdom. And it's been exceptional to watch end and

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Speaker 3: I love that. I hope there's more.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. This is the end of the series, right.

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Speaker 1: This is two and a four book.

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Speaker 3: Okay, good, good, okay, okay, yeah, you keep finding a

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Speaker 3: way of doing that. I need to figure that out.

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Speaker 3: But no, it's great we're talking about this, and I

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Speaker 3: love that you chose what I think today is considered

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Speaker 3: as such an unsexy topic and I don't if you

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Speaker 3: see it that way.

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Speaker 1: Discipline, I mean, I do, I mean, especially because the ancience,

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Speaker 1: the word they used for discipline was temperance, which sounds

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Speaker 1: even less like discipline, at least like that there's like

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Speaker 1: a kind of a coolness to it. But temperance feels

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Speaker 1: like the opposite of fun. Right. It feels like you're

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Speaker 1: telling me what I can't do, all the things I

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Speaker 1: have to avoid or all the things I have to

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Speaker 1: stop short one. And people don't like that, even though

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Speaker 1: when you actually think about the people who do whatever

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Speaker 1: they want all the time. Yes, actually some of the

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Speaker 1: most unhappy, miserable people in the entire world.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's funny you say that now because I

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Speaker 3: started thinking back to Vde acknowledging the word is tapa tapa,

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Speaker 3: and and it means austerity. That's the closest translation. And

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Speaker 3: the idea that discipline is often compared to austerity, right.

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Speaker 2: And austerity.

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Speaker 1: The purpose of that is not deprivation of austerity, is

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Speaker 1: to be not corrupted, to be sustainable, right, to avoid

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Speaker 1: what is superfluous or unnecessary. And it's not even about

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Speaker 1: a thing, it's not even about avoiding pleasure altogether. Like

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Speaker 1: in the agent world, the big in the Western asient world,

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Speaker 1: the big dispute is between the Epicureans and the Stoicism

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Speaker 1: and the Stoics. And you think Epicureans are the lovers

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Speaker 1: of pleasures and the Stoics are the haters of pleasure,

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Speaker 1: But even the Epicureans believed that any pleasure taken too

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Speaker 1: far becomes a source of pain or suffering. So it's

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Speaker 1: what we're really talking about. Then it comes down to

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Speaker 1: this idea of temperance or balance. What is the right amount?

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Speaker 1: Some things, the right amount is zero, but for most things,

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Speaker 1: the right amount is some sort of moderate or midpoint.

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Speaker 1: And you have to have wisdom and self control toude

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Speaker 1: not only figure out what that is, but then to

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Speaker 1: stop at that line.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's the hard part because I feel like

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Speaker 3: society has gone in the direction of becoming addicted to pleasure, yes, well,

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Speaker 3: pleasure seeking. Where from the Stoics perspective, why did we

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Speaker 3: even ever go down that road? Like why did we

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Speaker 3: leave wisdom and self control or did we never have

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Speaker 3: it at toll and we've always been trying to balance it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the big question, is

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Speaker 1: like why do we take something that we like too far? Right?

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Speaker 1: So the Epicureans would say like, look, drinking is great,

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Speaker 1: but if you have a hangover the next day, was

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Speaker 1: it actually so great? And so you know, if you

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Speaker 1: push or the pleasure too far, it becomes not pleasurable.

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Speaker 1: But in the moment that feels very far away, right,

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Speaker 1: like in the moment you want the thing now. Obviously

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Speaker 1: sex is this thing for people. It's like the thing

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Speaker 1: you're attracted to in this moment. You're not thinking about

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Speaker 1: the shame or the regret or the consequences or the

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Speaker 1: pain or the loss or the greed. You're not thinking

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Speaker 1: of all those things. You're just thinking of right now.

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Speaker 1: So I think a big part of this this where

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Speaker 1: the wisdom comes into the ability to step back. So

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Speaker 1: what am I going to think about this after I

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Speaker 1: get it? What am I going to think about this later?

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Speaker 1: And realizing that your mind is very good at tricking here.

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Speaker 1: Just as your mind often tells you like stop, you're

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Speaker 1: too tired, you can't go any further. You actually have

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Speaker 1: a lot less left in the tank, your mind also

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Speaker 1: tells you you need this thing, you won't regret it.

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Speaker 1: It's a you know whatever, And it's really good at

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Speaker 1: putting those blinders on. And so part of I think

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Speaker 1: any meditative practice, any philosophical practice, any journaling practice, is

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Speaker 1: being able to argue with yourself a little bit, to

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Speaker 1: step back and have that conversation about, well, is what

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Speaker 1: I think about this true? Is the story I'm telling

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Speaker 1: myself about this true? I think nowhere is this more

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Speaker 1: important than for like ambitious people who have told themselves,

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Speaker 1: I will be happy when I accomplish X. Right. Like

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Speaker 1: all the things we need to be most disciplined about,

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Speaker 1: ambition is one of them because it tells you this live.

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Speaker 1: After I become in your time as a seller, after

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Speaker 1: I make a million dollars, after I get a gold medal,

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Speaker 1: then I'll be good. My parents will be proud of me,

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Speaker 1: I'll be happy. Then I can relax. And you have

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Speaker 1: to have the perspective the wisdom to go has that

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Speaker 1: ever been true ever in my life before? Has that

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Speaker 1: ever been true in history? And then go, oh, okay, no,

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Speaker 1: I can't tell myself that lie. That doesn't mean you

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Speaker 1: don't work really hard to do stuff, but you're not

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Speaker 1: doing it under the false pretenses that it's going to

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Speaker 1: be conditional to your happiness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's a part of us that and I

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Speaker 3: love what you're saying, but there's a part of us

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Speaker 3: that always believes that we are the exception, that we

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Speaker 3: will know how to spend money better, that will know

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Speaker 3: how to have love in our life better, like we

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Speaker 3: won't be the one who fumbles off the ende of

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Speaker 3: a cliff, Like we're smart, don't all our friends, even

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Speaker 3: if we don't say that we're wiser than the people

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Speaker 3: who came before us.

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Speaker 2: And that's and that's ego is the enemy.

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Speaker 3: But of course, like that, that idea, I think is

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Speaker 3: what misleads us so much.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it's it's like, Okay, you're on the metal standing,

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Speaker 1: just won the gold medal, and you're not feeling happy

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Speaker 1: for yourself. You're thinking, well, I could have done a faster.

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Speaker 1: You're thinking, oh, I gotta do it again. Right even

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Speaker 1: in that moment, you're not able to think I'm doing

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Speaker 1: it to myself right now, what I will be doing

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Speaker 1: to myself in the future. And that's this sort of

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Speaker 1: insidious thing. And you can understand why from an evolutionary perspective,

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Speaker 1: it drives the species forward. You can also see the

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Speaker 1: immense personal cost that it inflicts on us because it

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Speaker 1: never allows us to be present or content or happy

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Speaker 1: with what we have in that moment, and so I

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Speaker 1: think again, people think discipline is the I always push

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Speaker 1: myself to do better, do more, discipline can also be

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Speaker 1: curbing that very impulse, right, Like ordinary people, when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about discipline, what we're talking about is getting off

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Speaker 1: your butt, working out, resisting eating candy and eating nutritious food.

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Speaker 1: Instead it's you know, managing your screen time. But I

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Speaker 1: think for a lot of more disciplined people, or for

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Speaker 1: people who have tasted the rewards of discipline, you have

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Speaker 1: to learn how to be disciplined about discipline, which is

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Speaker 1: maybe the highest level of the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: Now we're I guess now we've started talking about discipline

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Speaker 3: as a tool to achieve daily or weekly, monthly, yearly tasks,

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Speaker 3: But you're actually saying that we need to go back

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Speaker 3: a bit, like how would you unpack that for how

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Speaker 3: you're defining discipline there?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's like what's the number one cause of injury

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Speaker 1: for athletes? It's overtraining, right, So like, yeah, you're ordinary person,

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Speaker 1: it's like you're not training enough, you're not working hard enough. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: But then at an more elite level, at a more

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Speaker 1: accomplished level. Actually, the trouble is, hey, the racism for

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Speaker 1: six weeks, Like you do you want to peak now,

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Speaker 1: or do you want to peak at the right moment

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Speaker 1: right or this is just a practice session you don't

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Speaker 1: have to go out, or you know it's a long season,

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Speaker 1: or you prepared for that, and so you know, discipline

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Speaker 1: has to be balanced with sustainability, with rest, relaxation, recuperation, recovery,

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Speaker 1: all these other things. And that requires kind of a

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Speaker 1: spiritual discipline, not just hey, I can run an hour

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Speaker 1: without getting tired, but like, can I stop myself from

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Speaker 1: doing that? That's not what I should be doing in

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Speaker 1: this moment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And what I like about that is that I

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Speaker 3: feel there's different phases and stages, Like in the first

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Speaker 3: two years of my career, where we would have met

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Speaker 3: in New York and we went on a walk once

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Speaker 3: as well, I think, and we were walking around the

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Speaker 3: city and I remember talking about a few of these themes.

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Speaker 3: But it was at that time in my life I

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Speaker 3: was working probably eighteen hour days, sure, because I had

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Speaker 3: to in order to kind of break through that first level.

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Speaker 3: I was still disciplined in the sense that I would

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Speaker 3: make time to eat to some degree, and meditate, and

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Speaker 3: I would make some time to do a few things

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Speaker 3: of rest. But generally I was working seven days a week,

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Speaker 3: eighteen hours a day, and I'm very grateful.

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Speaker 2: I did that. I don't look back and go, oh,

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Speaker 2: I wasted two years. It was brilliant.

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Speaker 3: But then in the last couple of years, I've taken

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Speaker 3: my evenings back and so I don't work after six pm.

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Speaker 2: It's just a rule.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to work. I don't want to be

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Speaker 3: on the phone. And I was talking to a friend

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Speaker 3: and it's exactly what you said. He was saying to me.

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Speaker 3: He was just like, well, don't you get less done?

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Speaker 3: And I was like, no, I get more done. Sure,

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Speaker 3: because I know how much I have to get done.

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Speaker 3: I'm far more attentive and focused. And then I'm not

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Speaker 3: working at nine pm when I can rest and recuperate,

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Speaker 3: and now the next day I'm better for it. And

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Speaker 3: so I hear that idea that that is also a discipline,

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Speaker 3: or they could be seen as you're being lazy in

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Speaker 3: the evening.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's the question is it easy for

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Speaker 1: you to do that? Yes? Or no? Right, it's hard.

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Speaker 1: It's actually harder for you. I imagine to say I'm

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Speaker 1: stopping at six than it is to say I'm going

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Speaker 1: to work all night till I fall asleep at my desk, right, Like.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I could do that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if my wife's not around, I can work every

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Speaker 3: weekend and evening.

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Speaker 1: And also it's realizing that you have multiple things that

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Speaker 1: you're trying to do simultaneously. So yeah, sure, working, continuing

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Speaker 1: to work eighteen hour days may help you continue to

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Speaker 1: advance in your career. But if one of the also

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Speaker 1: the other things you're trying to work on, is to

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Speaker 1: stay married or to have a happy marriage, or you

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Speaker 1: have children, or you have your health or whatever you

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Speaker 1: were telling me before we recorded it. You like you

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Speaker 1: got in at three am last night. Let's say you're

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Speaker 1: a person who always wakes up very early, Like I'm

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Speaker 1: a person who wakes up early. Yes, But then I

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Speaker 1: also have to understand that sleep is a discipline. And

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Speaker 1: so if some changes outside my control mean that I

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Speaker 1: didn't go to bed to a certain time, the fact

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Speaker 1: that I wake up at five, that's bad idea, and

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Speaker 1: it actually requires it. You wouldn't think that sleep discipline

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Speaker 1: would be a thing, but in the military they talk

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Speaker 1: about that sleep discipline. You got to get your hours

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Speaker 1: because you make bad decisions when you are not rested,

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Speaker 1: and other people bear the consequences of those decisions. And

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Speaker 1: so deciding hey, I'm going to skip this thing that

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Speaker 1: feels comfortable to me to do that feels natural for

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Speaker 1: me to do that, I feel like I'm letting some

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Speaker 1: part of myself down by not doing I actually have

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Speaker 1: to be the bigger, more self controlled person and say

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Speaker 1: in this moment, I'm not going to do that right.

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Speaker 1: And I think at the end of the day, self

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Speaker 1: discipline is the ability to have an emotion and instinct

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Speaker 1: of feeling to do a thing and then to catch

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Speaker 1: yourself and go, is that actually the right thing to do?

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Speaker 2: Yes? Or no?

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Speaker 1: And sometimes it is. Sometimes it's hey, it's cold outside

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Speaker 1: and it's five am and it's still dark, and I

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Speaker 1: don't want to get up, but I have to get

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Speaker 1: up because I've made these commitments I'm behind blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: And other times it is to stay in bed right

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Speaker 1: just like you know, sometimes you feel that surge of

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Speaker 1: temper coming on and you have to go, no, that's

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Speaker 1: not a good like it's always the ability to step back,

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Speaker 1: put the emotion, the instinct the opinion to the test.

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Speaker 1: And I think you learn this in meditation. I think

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Speaker 1: you learn this for soicism in the journaling of going like,

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Speaker 1: here's the thing, and I can choose it or not.

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Speaker 1: I can choose to identified or not. It is not me.

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Speaker 1: The Stokes have this word assent right, not like ascent

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Speaker 1: up a mountain, but as s e nt.

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Speaker 2: Do you assent to the.

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Speaker 1: Feeling or not? Do you agree to it, rubber stamp it,

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Speaker 1: approve it, go along with it or not?

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Speaker 2: Do you subscribe?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what discipline is is about what do you

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Speaker 1: assent to and what you not assent to?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder I want to go with a tangent.

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Speaker 3: I want to come back to that because I actually

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Speaker 3: really like that point. But a few words ago, there

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Speaker 3: was something that you sparked for me. Sometimes I feel

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Speaker 3: like with work it's doable. Sometimes with even our partner,

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Speaker 3: with friends, it's possible to say no.

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Speaker 2: To be disciplined.

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Speaker 3: I find like, and I want to ask you this

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Speaker 3: from your perspective, what about a sense of dad guilt?

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Speaker 3: Like we talk a lot about mum guilt, and you know,

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Speaker 3: if it was speaking to mom, i'd ask about mum

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Speaker 3: guilt in this scenario, but from a dad guilt point

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Speaker 3: of view, like you're a dad, I you know, and

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Speaker 3: I see you wanting to be a good dad and

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Speaker 3: you're very involved to do kids. But at the same time,

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Speaker 3: you're a writer and you're in a bookstore and you're

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Speaker 3: doing activists like this.

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Speaker 2: There so many things that you do.

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Speaker 3: Do you ever feel like that's like the hardest place

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Speaker 3: where discipline because it's like even if a dad comes

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Speaker 3: home at three am and the kid once in at

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Speaker 3: four am, Like does the dad stay out there?

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Speaker 2: What does the dad do? How does he work?

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Speaker 1: Well? It's so insidious. What we do is we go like,

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Speaker 1: I'm doing this for my family, right, and it's like

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Speaker 1: are you or are you doing it for you? Are

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Speaker 1: you doing it for the money? How can you be

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Speaker 1: doing it for your family if you don't see those

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Speaker 1: people as a result of what you're doing. Someone told

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Speaker 1: me many years ago, they said love is spelled time,

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Speaker 1: and I think about that all the time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: obviously I always have things that take me away more

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Speaker 1: than I would like them to be. I suppose I

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Speaker 1: could do nothing, but that would also leave me unfulfilled.

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Speaker 1: That would not be me setting the example. I want

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Speaker 1: to set for my kids. But at the end of

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Speaker 1: the day, realizing that everything I say yes to also

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Speaker 1: means saying no to someone or something else, And in

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Speaker 1: some ways I try to use that dad go a

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Speaker 1: little constructively. I try to go, Okay, this person's asking

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Speaker 1: me to do this thing, and this person's offering me

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Speaker 1: money to do this thing, or this is some cool

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Speaker 1: opportunity they want me to go Hella skiing and British

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Speaker 1: Columbia or something, and I go, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say no to this cool opportunity. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: miss this memory. I don't want to hurt this person's feelings.

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Speaker 1: And I go, But I am hurting a person's feelings.

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Speaker 1: I am saying no to a memory, like I am

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Speaker 1: taking something away from someone, and that person is a

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Speaker 1: five year old and they're going to feel it far

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Speaker 1: more deeply. Someone else will take my spot on that

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Speaker 1: plane to British Columbia. No one will spend that time

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Speaker 1: with my kids. And so I try to use that

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Speaker 1: guilt constructively in the sense that I'm reminding myself always

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Speaker 1: that's saying yes to one thing means saying no to

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Speaker 1: something else, and that conversely, saying no means saying yes, right,

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Speaker 1: and then I always as much as I can. I

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Speaker 1: want to be saying yes to the things that actually

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Speaker 1: matter to me, and I want to be putting my

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Speaker 1: money my mouth is. It's like if someone looked at

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Speaker 1: your calendar, you say you put your family first, You

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Speaker 1: say family is important, blah blah blah. But then if

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Speaker 1: I looked at your calendar, what would it show, right,

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Speaker 1: if there was a custody hearing, or you know, if

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Speaker 1: you were being investigated, if you're being audited, what would

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Speaker 1: the receipts show? Do you actually value them? Do you

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Speaker 1: put them first? And like it should be pretty pretty

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Speaker 1: obvious whether that's true or not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I have an exercise in Think like a

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Speaker 3: monk where asks people to do their time audit for

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Speaker 3: the week, and it's literally that where it's like, and

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Speaker 3: it's against your values because someone's values may be different.

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Speaker 3: But the idea that your bank statement and your schedule

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Speaker 3: show your values more than what you say yes, right,

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Speaker 3: The words that come out of our mouth are not

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Speaker 3: actually our values. There are aspirations. Those are the values

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Speaker 3: you wish you had, but the values that actually go

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Speaker 3: what do you spend your money on? And what do

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Speaker 3: you spend your time on? Like that's far more what

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Speaker 3: your real values are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think about that.

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Speaker 1: I saw this interview with Jimmy Carter many years ago,

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Speaker 1: and he has this sort of crisis of faith and

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Speaker 1: he goes like, if I was put on trial for

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Speaker 1: being a Christian, would I be convicted? Right? So it's

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Speaker 1: not what you say, not what you think, not what

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Speaker 1: you wish, but like what are the action show? And

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Speaker 1: I think about that with Mark Srelis, who I write

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Speaker 1: a lot about the Stoic Emperor, like he never identifies

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Speaker 1: explicitly as a Stoic, and one of his translators says,

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Speaker 1: you know, he never even says the word stoicism like

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Speaker 1: in his writings, but he's considered this philosopher emperor. And

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Speaker 1: he probably still would have been even if his writings

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Speaker 1: had never survived.

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Speaker 2: Because the deeds are there.

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Speaker 1: There's a Latin expression acta non verbal like deeds not words.

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Speaker 1: And so you have to always think, not what do

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Speaker 1: I write about, what do I think about? What do

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Speaker 1: I want to be true? But what are the action show?

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Speaker 1: And no one is perfect, and I think anyone auditing

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Speaker 1: themselves is going to be there's going to be some disappointments,

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Speaker 1: but you want, like the big statements of priority to

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Speaker 1: be there and to go back to the idea of

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Speaker 1: guilt when you're looking at it, you shouldn't like whip

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Speaker 1: yourself and feel but you should be like, Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is not the painting the picture that I want to paint,

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Speaker 1: and that you're lucky enough in that moment to catch

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Speaker 1: it now, not when you're eighty, you know, not on

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Speaker 1: your deathbed. You're you're you've caught it now. And so

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Speaker 1: what changes are you going to make? Yeah, to get

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Speaker 1: closer between the ideal and the reality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And something that's interesting that's coming out from me here

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Speaker 3: is that pretty much everything we do every day can

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Speaker 3: be defined by thinking, feeling, and doing. But I think

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Speaker 3: we're living at a time where we're stuck in the

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Speaker 3: feeling generation. So we do things because we want to

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Speaker 3: feel a certain way, but then when we feel things,

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Speaker 3: we don't know what to do with it. So I'll

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Speaker 3: give an example of what I mean by that. If

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Speaker 3: you if we feel guilt, most of us don't know

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Speaker 3: how to shift from that feeling into thinking and doing

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Speaker 3: something different in order to not feel that guilt again. Yes,

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Speaker 3: and if we want to feel happy, we just try

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Speaker 3: and feel happy, not realizing that you have to change

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Speaker 3: your thoughts and what you do in order to feel

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Speaker 3: happiness or whatever it may be. What I'm trying to

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Speaker 3: get at there is like that to me sounds like

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Speaker 3: a discipline too. But we've gone so into feeling because

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Speaker 3: I think for so long thinking and doing what the

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Speaker 3: only things talked about, and we didn't feel enough.

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Speaker 1: I think realizing that almost all the things you want

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Speaker 1: in life are accidental byproducts of habits, processes, systems, routines. Right,

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Speaker 1: So Victor Frankel famously said that happiness can't be pursued,

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Speaker 1: it must ensue. It's the result of getting those big

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Speaker 1: things right, and then you just feel this kind of

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Speaker 1: feeling of happiness as a byproduct. You don't as you said,

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Speaker 1: you don't go today, I must feel happy, right, It's

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Speaker 1: the result of having meaning and purpose and taking the

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Speaker 1: right actions. And so people sometimes look at the books

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Speaker 1: that I've written and then like what, like, how did

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Speaker 1: you publish so many books? And it's like publishing is

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Speaker 1: not what I think about. I think about writing. I

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Speaker 1: wake up every day and write, and the accidental by

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Speaker 1: product of that is the publishing right, and so good habits,

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Speaker 1: good routines, Like you want a happier home life, It's like,

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Speaker 1: are you spending more time there?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: How are you setting up systems or processes that the

423
00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 1: result is that outcome? Right? You control what you put

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Speaker 1: in that the outcome happens or it doesn't happen. And

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Speaker 1: I think so often we just you're right, We just

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Speaker 1: want the feeling, and so we try to cheat it

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Speaker 1: or steal it, or we feel guilty that we don't

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Speaker 1: have it, when really you could start small right now

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Speaker 1: and just get yourself closer to it.

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Speaker 3: What do you think is the best discipline you've built

431
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Speaker 3: like over time? Like is it writing? Obviously that would

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Speaker 3: be the obvious one. But is there another one that

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Speaker 3: you think underpins that success. Is there a discipline you've

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00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 3: worked on the longest.

435
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:56,160
Speaker 2: Well.

436
00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 1: I think writing is such a sedentary sort of intellectual

437
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 1: cerebral thing that I try to balance it out with

438
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 1: like a physical practice. So I try to do something

439
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,399
Speaker 1: hard every single day, running, swimming, biking, I do a

440
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 1: walk once a day, Like I do something hard every day,

441
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 1: and part of what that is is transferable back to

442
00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:21,080
Speaker 1: the practice, right, because again, it comes down to the

443
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: you don't want to do it. It's hard, it's not going

444
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,600
Speaker 1: the way you want it, but you've cultivated the muscle

445
00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,200
Speaker 1: of being able to push through that. Like, there's lots

446
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,320
Speaker 1: of claims about the health benefits of cold plunges, and

447
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: they may or may not exist. That's not why I

448
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,720
Speaker 1: do it, right. The muscle for me is the cranking

449
00:21:37,760 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 1: of the knob of the looking at the cold punge

450
00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:41,919
Speaker 1: at my house and going it is going to be

451
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: unpleasant to get in there, but I have the ability

452
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 1: to force myself to do that. That's the muscle that

453
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: you want to cultivate. And I think, you know people

454
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:55,240
Speaker 1: want to be the person on the other side of that,

455
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: but they don't realize that the way you do it

456
00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,240
Speaker 1: is by just starting it. Just starting it.

457
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so true. I can relate to so much

458
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,160
Speaker 3: of that in my own life. And when you're saying that,

459
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,119
Speaker 3: it's I feel like today most of what I do,

460
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 3: I'd say I spend a lot. I'd spend like seventy

461
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 3: five percent of my life outside of my comfort zone.

462
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 3: I am constantly doing things that demand more from me

463
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,240
Speaker 3: than I believe I'm skilled and able to accomplish, yeah,

464
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 3: and in a healthy way, in a good sense, because

465
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,280
Speaker 3: I feel challenged, and I feel that challenge forces me

466
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: to grow my skills, which then meet a new challenge,

467
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 3: and then that keeps growing. But then I find myself

468
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: in my personal life often resorting to comfort because I

469
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 3: need to kind of cushion the amount of like su

470
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 3: pressure and stress. And so it's like this for me,

471
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: I'm at that place in my life where I'm like, Okay,

472
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,879
Speaker 3: I'm pushing so much and in my personal life to

473
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 3: be super like you know, cushion.

474
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 1: To some degree, it is interesting, right, we will take

475
00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 1: and Seneca points us out on one of his letters,

476
00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:59,120
Speaker 1: like we'll push ourselves. It will take risks to succeed financially,

477
00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: to succeed in business, to succeed in our careers, to

478
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: butchers our reputations, But then we don't want to do

479
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: it in the other places where most of us would

480
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: admit it actually matters. Right, my favorite passages and meditations

481
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,960
Speaker 1: Mark Sutis is like a better wrestler, but not a

482
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: better forgiver of faults, a better friend and type places

483
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: he's pointing out how we'll go like, yeah, I'm trying

484
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: to like You'll talk to someone that have this well

485
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 1: laid out plan for how they're trying to increase their

486
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 1: back squad or their mild time, or how they're trying

487
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: to to they've got they've they've got these aggressive goals

488
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:38,479
Speaker 1: for their stock pricer or you know how many copies

489
00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 1: they want to sell this thing, or they have. We

490
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 1: have really clear financial and professional goals, and then in

491
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 1: our personal life we just wing it. And I'm not

492
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 1: saying that I.

493
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 2: Didn't Yeah, I didn't mean that, but I know you mean, yeah, yeah,

494
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: I love that point.

495
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: And I think the point is like you have to

496
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,919
Speaker 1: be challenging yourself in your personal life, also getting vulnerable,

497
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, getting outside your comfort zone, having the conversations

498
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 1: that you like. I think it's because our professional stuff

499
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: is so much more quantifiable, and then there's other people

500
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: are looking at it, whereas the other stuff is private,

501
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: and so we we just we hold ourselves to different standards.

502
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: And you think about what that costs us in terms

503
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: of a place you get to in your marriage in

504
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: ten years that had you thought more consciously about or

505
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 1: put one tenth of the focus on, maybe you could

506
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 1: have got there in one year and then had nine

507
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: years of enjoying it.

508
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that I fully agree with.

509
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: Then maybe I didn't clarify when I said comfort, I

510
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 3: mean more apart from my sleep sked, I have so

511
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,480
Speaker 3: many routines that already set up that I try and

512
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 3: make my personal life more comfortable because in my individual

513
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 3: life of my own self care because I find I'm

514
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 3: pushing myself in so many areas. But I love where

515
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 3: you took it to because I think that's the critical one, right.

516
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 3: It's like what you're kind of leaning towards is most

517
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 3: people will become people they don't want to be in

518
00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 3: order to achieve something, and that external pursuit often does that.

519
00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,880
Speaker 3: By the end of building a billion dollar company or

520
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: whatever it may be, you end up going, well, I

521
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 3: don't even like the person I am anymore, or I've

522
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: lost the person who I thought I was. Whereas the

523
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: pursuit of doing it inwardly with your family, with your friendships,

524
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 3: the openness that's required, chances are you'll become the person

525
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 3: you want to be. Like chances are you'll become someone

526
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: that you're proud of being. And I think that's such

527
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: I want to dive into that. That is such a

528
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 3: powerful way of looking at it, and you're saying it's

529
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 3: because it's the quantifiability, which I think there's truth in.

530
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 3: I also think it's the it's harder. It's harder because,

531
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,439
Speaker 3: like you're saying, there's no external reward, there's no number

532
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: that proves you did it, and it's fluctuating way more

533
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 3: because people's emotions, like anyone in your family and friendship,

534
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 3: you can't control it. Could you can control or master

535
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 3: an algorithm or the stock market is some degree, but

536
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 3: with a person, you can't do any of that because

537
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: you can't set something up and then be like you're

538
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 3: going to stay this way.

539
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,160
Speaker 1: Well, it's like you get so used to the control

540
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: and the power that you have from the mastery of

541
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: your professional domain. Right like, when I sit down to write,

542
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,240
Speaker 1: I'm in control. I'm comfortable. This is a place that

543
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: I have carved out for myself. When I am arguing

544
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: with my wife or I am dealing with three year

545
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 1: old who's having a meltdown, I'm not in control and

546
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 1: I'm humbled by it and I'm struggling with it, and

547
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I've got it because I have

548
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: so much less. I've literally never done that before. I'll

549
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: and I'll have such a short window where I'll ever

550
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,719
Speaker 1: have to do it right. It's not it's not like, oh,

551
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,120
Speaker 1: I've been in this place in a book twelve times, right,

552
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: Like I've only had one five year old ye, and

553
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: so you know, it's just so much more challenging.

554
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 2: It's just a.

555
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 1: Much more multi dimensional, you know, and of one like

556
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: difficult thing, and so it's going to demand more of you.

557
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: And I think I think it's like, look, optimizing your

558
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: professional life or maximizing your professional life very unlikely to

559
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: improve your personal life. But if you have optimized and

560
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,919
Speaker 1: maximized and improved your personal life, got in your house

561
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,119
Speaker 1: and order, you're going to be better at what you do.

562
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:30,400
Speaker 1: What are you going to care less in some degrees

563
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: about things that used to bother you so much? And

564
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 1: so which one are you going to focus on? Right?

565
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: Because you can get you can be a titan in

566
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 1: your industry and then be a total amateur at home, right,

567
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: And I think go where it's easy.

568
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 3: And that's and that's the thing I think discipline often

569
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 3: gets applied to the titan in the industry, not the

570
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 3: amateur at home. Yeah, And that's how we think about discipline.

571
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: We think about discipline is what can I achieve through this?

572
00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 2: Yeah?

573
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 3: In an external sense. Yeah, and at least today that's

574
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 3: the language, and you.

575
00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: Can get away with so much more if you're really talented.

576
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,160
Speaker 1: You know, you can be a jerk. Right, you can

577
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: demand a lot of people because you're paying these people, right, Like,

578
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm not saying you should, I'm just saying that there's

579
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 1: accommodations that are made for you and sort of insidiously,

580
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 1: the more successful you are, the more needed you are,

581
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,840
Speaker 1: the more accommodations you are. But there's none of that

582
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: in the other area, and so you have to there's

583
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: some humility required, Right, You're meeting equals on an equal

584
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: playing field, and the discipline to say like, yeah, I'm

585
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to wrestle with that, I'm going to try

586
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: to get better. I'm not going to allow myself to

587
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: do these following bad habits. That takes a certain amount

588
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: of self control and focus and discipline.

589
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess.

590
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 3: I guess one of the biggest challenges with discipline is

591
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 3: that we're trying to destroy a habit that we hate.

592
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 3: Like there's this idea that it just has to break

593
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 3: and go. Right, if you have a habit that you

594
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 3: don't like about yourself, whatever that may be, it's like

595
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: you just or released. I've found when I'm coaching clients

596
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 3: and working with people is that they have this like

597
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: bitter feeling towards this thing that they have and they

598
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 3: want it to go at all costs. But that almost

599
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 3: makes you hold on to it harder, like that makes

600
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 3: you grip onto it sure and wrestle with it more.

601
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 3: And I remember when when I lived in India, a

602
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 3: lot of the time, the analogy that was given or

603
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 3: the metaphor that was given to meditate on because we'd

604
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 3: see all the time was like snake skin. And the

605
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,560
Speaker 3: idea was that when snakes shed their skin, they just

606
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 3: slither out. They don't it doesn't like they don't want

607
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 3: day just go well and they don't even have Yeah, yeah,

608
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 3: they're not like the whole where it's like like snakes

609
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: just slither out and then their skin gets left behind

610
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,760
Speaker 3: and then it you know, they'll grow more. And so

611
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 3: the idea that it's it's such a natural, organic process

612
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 3: of if you just slither, if you just move forward,

613
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: you naturally shed.

614
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the beauty of process, right, You don't sit

615
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: down anymore. I have to do this right now? What

616
00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 1: do I have to do today? What are the small steps?

617
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: And you get great by minor improvements compounded on top

618
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: of each other day and day out, showing up day

619
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: and day out. And that's the same. Hey, we were

620
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: fighting like crazy six months ago and now things are awesome.

621
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: Why is that they made a change and you made

622
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: a change, and you made a response in a change

623
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: in response to their change, and it compounded and now

624
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: you're here. That work can fall away at any moment.

625
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: You have to rebuild it. But I think you know,

626
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: the Buddhists talk about willful will like almost the more

627
00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: intentional you are about it. That's the irony too, is

628
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: we're talking about how you know, being intentional in your

629
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: professional life often pays off. Being intentional having clear expectations, wants,

630
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: desires in your personal life is harder because it depends

631
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: on other people, people who are not like you, people

632
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: who did not sign up for that. And I think

633
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: one of the things you learn having kids and then

634
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: also being married is like a scent in that same

635
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 1: sense of like acquiescing to things, adjusting to things like

636
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 1: I'm a routine person. Kids don't care about your routine.

637
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: They fall asleep when they fell asleep, and you have

638
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: to adjust like you're no longer the center of the universe. Yeah,

639
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: and that is such an important thing that you have

640
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: to figure out and adjust and accommodate towards you're the

641
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: master of the universe here, but that you leave that

642
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: behind when you walk through the front door.

643
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

644
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely. I was talking to a Maah from Yes Theory.

645
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know the guys that Yes Theory. Yeah,

646
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 3: they're awesome and we've had them on the show before.

647
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 3: But I was talking to Ama the other day and

648
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: they just released their project Iceman, I think their documentary

649
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: first time, like the Future documentary. But he was talking

650
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 3: about this and he was saying that when they built

651
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 3: Yes Theory, the goal was like, how can we say

652
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 3: yes to things we would usually say no to? RTE

653
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: Like that was the obvious point and now he's learned

654
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 3: that it's equally important to say no. But the part

655
00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 3: that really hit me when he was explaining in it,

656
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: I think we both vibe with the idea. He was

657
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: saying that, and it's something you said earlier. He said,

658
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 3: have to start saying yes to the things I find hardest.

659
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: And so he was saying that today, no matter how

660
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 3: many marathons he's done, no matter how many crazy expeditions

661
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: they've gone on, no matter how many countries they survive

662
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: with no money, he said, the hardest thing for him

663
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 3: to do is sit with his thoughts for fifteen minutes. Yeah,

664
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 3: he was like, that's the hardest thing. He goes, I

665
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 3: don't look forward to doing that.

666
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 2: He said.

667
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 3: If someone told me to train for something, he goes,

668
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 3: I look forward to that. But if someone told me

669
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 3: to sit down with my thoughts for fifteen minutes, because

670
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 3: I don't look forward to it. So that's what I'm doing.

671
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: And he was saying, that's why he's trying to build that.

672
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 3: And he was like, that's his new definition of seeking discomfort,

673
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: because he said when people come to h and say, do

674
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 3: you want to build like a million dollar company? A

675
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 3: billion dollar He's like, I can get excited about that,

676
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 3: But he goes, I don't get excited about it. Is

677
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 3: that a good sense of people finding what discipline is

678
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: for them?

679
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: Or how do you see that?

680
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: And I think restraint is the hardest thing, right, Please,

681
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: Pascal the fifteen hundreds said all of humanity's problems stem

682
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: from our inability to sit quietly in a room alone.

683
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 1: It was hard five hundred years ago, it's harder now

684
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: when you have a cell phone in your pocket, when

685
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 1: you could get on a flight and travel anywhere you

686
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: want in the world, and there's a limited distractions, opportunities,

687
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 1: things to get excited about. Like it's hard to hold

688
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: the mind still, to be physically still, or maybe not

689
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: to be physically still, but had the mind still while

690
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: the body is in motion. This requires like so much discipline,

691
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 1: so much self control, so much self awareness. Right even

692
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: to understand that it's hard for you, that it's something

693
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 1: that you are naturally averse to or avoid is a

694
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: step in that journey to getting better at it.

695
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:46,760
Speaker 2: Because a lot of.

696
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 1: People are just doing, doing, and doing, and they're not

697
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: even aware they're running away from something. They're not even

698
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: aware that it makes them uncomfortable to be still. So

699
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: I think we have to understand it's this journey, and

700
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: hopefully as you go you get more more and more comfortable,

701
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: because at the end of the day, that's the one

702
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: constant in life. Wherever you go, there you are, there

703
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: you are. As expression goes like you're there, and if

704
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,720
Speaker 1: you can't get comfortable with that, can't get in touch

705
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: with that, you can't see what's there. I think you're

706
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: gonna wake up one day and realize I did all

707
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: of this stuff to get away from something that's been

708
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:27,959
Speaker 1: inside me the whole time. And that's very, very sad.

709
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 3: That is That's yeah, that's well, that's that's the inconvenient

710
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 3: truth of it, right, Like that's the hard part that

711
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:39,880
Speaker 3: you chased pleasure for so long that you completely missed

712
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,959
Speaker 3: what was it, what was already there? But I think,

713
00:34:44,080 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: is it that we don't what is your take from

714
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: studying it?

715
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: Like?

716
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:48,840
Speaker 3: Is it that we don't know the benefits enough? Is

717
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 3: it that we don't like processes enough? It is is

718
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: it that we're just addicted and there isn't a because

719
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 3: I look at and I do think looking at very

720
00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 3: daily habit changes is the easiest way to build the

721
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: muscle to go.

722
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 2: I can do this.

723
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 3: So I always give the example of when I met

724
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,840
Speaker 3: my wife, I was addicted to sugar like I genuinely was,

725
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 3: and I didn't even know it. I had a sprite

726
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 3: and a chocolate bar every day without thinking about it.

727
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 3: It's how I got through college. It was life. When

728
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,320
Speaker 3: I was a monk, I didn't have either of those things,

729
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,920
Speaker 3: but that was more of a suppression and there was

730
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 3: lots of other interesting things to do or I didn't

731
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 3: need that kind of energy.

732
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: When I came back, I.

733
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,439
Speaker 1: Liked the convict was sober in prison. Yeah, you don't

734
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: have access exactly. I didn't have access to it, and

735
00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: I didn't. I definitely built a discipline where I didn't

736
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 1: feel like I needed it. But then when I came

737
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: back to the real world, all I wanted was chocolate

738
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,799
Speaker 1: and sugar. And so when I met my wife, it's like,

739
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: you know, we've been married for six years now together

740
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: for ten, and she like, at first she would just

741
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: educate me, like she would just tell me because she's

742
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,359
Speaker 1: a dietician in nutrition is this is her job. She's

743
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 1: laying out all the dangers of sugar. Then she's like

744
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: taking it out of the like home, like it's not

745
00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: around anymore, it's not accessible. And then almost like it's

746
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 1: taken six years, and I would say, now I'm at

747
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: a place where the habit has really transformed. It's like

748
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 1: a six year journey, and obviously it probably happened like

749
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: halfway through. I'd say like probably it happened three years

750
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: ago where I really started cutting out sugar.

751
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: But he needed a coach. My wife was the coach.

752
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 3: It needed a obedient or submissive student. I trust my

753
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 3: wife on this area. It wasn't like I was. I

754
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 3: didn't have an ego about it. She knows more than

755
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 3: me about the body. And then on top of that,

756
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 3: it needed a focus in the sense that in my health,

757
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 3: we kind of did it one at a time without

758
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 3: even trying, where it's like we took out sugar first,

759
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 3: we started working out next, like she kind of did

760
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: that even unconsciously. It just took so much, and I

761
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 3: go and I know, obviously with the stoics we talk

762
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: about mentoring and coaching and there's always this cross learning.

763
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 3: But I feel like now we're all trying to do

764
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:48,479
Speaker 3: it on our own.

765
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: We are, and we're also expecting that it just happened.

766
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: That it's just like epiphany. If knowing what to do

767
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: was enough, everyone would be in great shape. No one

768
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: would have any of these illnesses or problems that we have.

769
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: It's so much more complicated than that, and I think

770
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,240
Speaker 1: I do try to remind people that it's a journey

771
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: that you're on your whole life. There's passages and meditations

772
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,480
Speaker 1: where MARKSURREALI is is going. You're an old man and

773
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: you're still losing your temper. You're still worried about what

774
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: other people think. He's like, you're still afraid of death

775
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: and it's almost here. And realizing that if the wisest

776
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: people in the world struggled their whole life with this thing,

777
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,359
Speaker 1: the idea that you, who were lucky enough to hear

778
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: about it in your twenties or thirties or forties, that

779
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: you're just gonna get it. It's naive and it's also

780
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 1: unfair to yourself. The question is are you getting better

781
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,319
Speaker 1: at it as you go? Right? Seneca says, how do

782
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: I know I'm making progress? And my philosophy says I've

783
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 1: begun to become a better friend to myself. So discipline

784
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: is not just squeezing blood from the stone. It's not

785
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: just whipping yourself. It's hiring a coach. It's you know,

786
00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:08,239
Speaker 1: setting reachable goals as you go. It's it's stepping back

787
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: and giving yourself credit and saying how far we've come? Man, Like,

788
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 1: we're doing great?

789
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 2: Right.

790
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 1: It's not it's not just this sort of like in

791
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 1: your face, like how are you not there yetness? Right,

792
00:38:21,920 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: It's it's a journey and you're not supposed to really

793
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:28,720
Speaker 1: ever get there. That it's like the horizon, it's always

794
00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: a little bit further away. And so you know, I

795
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: think when we hear discipline, I think we think of

796
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: like the marine drill sergeant, Yeah, this is kind of transformative.

797
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: You didn't have discipline and now you do. We should

798
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 1: also think about like having a discipline it is a

799
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 1: thing you do your whole life, and realizing that that's

800
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: how we should measure this progress.

801
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 3: I think though, that that's what we're banging a head against,

802
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 3: is that the mind has been so far removed from

803
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:03,880
Speaker 3: the idea that things take time, that patience is required,

804
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 3: that one step at a time, Like we hear those

805
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 3: things all the time, but there's literally nothing we do

806
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,440
Speaker 3: in our lives that requires us to move one step

807
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,440
Speaker 3: at a time anymore. Like it just doesn't work. And

808
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 3: we know these examples, like whether you're ordering food to

809
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 3: your house, or whether you're getting this delivered, or whether

810
00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 3: you jump.

811
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: Into an uber or lift.

812
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: We know that, but I found it really interesting recently,

813
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 3: Like I just went through a double hernia surgery, and

814
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 3: it's not life threatening, and it's meant to be routine,

815
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 3: but it's far worse than the docors make it out

816
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 3: to be. And the journey back to feeling like I

817
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 3: can operate normally. It's been two months now and I'd

818
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 3: say I'm seventy five percent there. I would say that

819
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 3: the first four weeks were like learning how to walk again.

820
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: And I have never ever moved that slow in life

821
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 3: in a good way, as in that every movement of

822
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: the body or the mind had to be slow because

823
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: if I moved far, I could potentially relapse. So I couldn't.

824
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:03,439
Speaker 2: I can't.

825
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 3: I still can't think anything above like fifteen pounds of

826
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 3: not allowed. I couldn't for that first month, like walk

827
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 3: for the first week, and then I had to shimmy

828
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 3: for the rest of it, and I had to, like

829
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 3: when I sat down on a chair, I had to

830
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 3: be so mindful. I was like, wow, I thought I

831
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: was mindful, And having this surgery has made me the

832
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 3: most mindful person ever. I've never eaten that slow, because

833
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,240
Speaker 3: the digestion was harder and there was pain in this area,

834
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 3: and so it was the first time in a long

835
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 3: time I felt that present, and I consider myself to

836
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: be a present person.

837
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,560
Speaker 1: I think that the root of it is this illusion

838
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: we had that we're in control, right, that we're deciding

839
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 1: how things go, and then we have an injury or

840
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 1: a problem or something that disrupts it, and we are

841
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: rudely but also kindly reminded how little control we have.

842
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: I remember I was I moved across the country. I

843
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: was writing my first book. The two days before I

844
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:57,680
Speaker 1: was supposed to start riding my bike New Orleans, I

845
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,880
Speaker 1: get stuck in the street car tracks, like over the handlebars.

846
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 1: I break my left elbow and I'm left handed, and

847
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: so like all of the way that I was thinking

848
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: about writing this book goes out the window. For like

849
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: six weeks, I couldn't get like the adrenaline or the

850
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 1: endorphins that I needed just to function as a person.

851
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: I had to go on these like long walks. So

852
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,720
Speaker 1: you know, I get the news and it's like, okay,

853
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be able to work or think

854
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:24,320
Speaker 1: for like six weeks. This is a total dead loss

855
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 1: for me. But then I started taking these walks, like hour,

856
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,239
Speaker 1: two hour, three hour walks just around and what do

857
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,760
Speaker 1: you know, I start writing the book in my head

858
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: on these walks. If I had gotten things the way

859
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: I wanted them to go, it would have been far

860
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: less advantageous to me than me having to respond to

861
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 1: the way they did end up going. So at the

862
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,360
Speaker 1: core of stoicism is this idea that we don't control

863
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: what happens, we control how we respond to what happens.

864
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: It seems like it's this curse, this human frail to

865
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 1: your weakness, that like, we're not in can but our

866
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 1: superpower is our ability to respond to that, to find

867
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: good in it, to be made better for it. And

868
00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: you go through this thing and you realize, oh, this

869
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,600
Speaker 1: is an opportunity to practice all of the things that

870
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:20,279
Speaker 1: I ordinarily take for granted I assume I have. There's

871
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: this one Japanese zen master, actually the zen master from

872
00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: Zen in the art of Archery, and he's at the

873
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: end of his life. He's dying and he goes to

874
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:32,760
Speaker 1: urinate in the snow and it's red. He's like bleeding.

875
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 1: He's dying, and the students are alarmed. He goes this too,

876
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,400
Speaker 1: is practice all of these things that we experienced that

877
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 1: we didn't want or we thought they should go a

878
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: different way they're actually the opportunity to practice the way

879
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: where the logo says the Stokes would call it in

880
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 1: the way it's actually meant to do, if we choose

881
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: to be present, recognize it, and take that opportunity instead

882
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: of fighting it or resenting it or wishing over otherwise.

883
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 3: Even I love that point that you made, that that

884
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 3: even that was practice. Yeah, that is beautiful like that,

885
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 3: that's magical, like that idea that even in that worst scenario,

886
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,480
Speaker 3: at the end of all of it, it was still practice.

887
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 3: And if we could only wrap our hand around that,

888
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: because I think we still think of practice and performing

889
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,799
Speaker 3: practice and arrival practice in the end, we still see

890
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 3: it as separate and there is nothing that separate. Like

891
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 3: that tree outside that's huge is still growing and being nourished.

892
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,720
Speaker 3: It's just you don't see it anymore. And I almost

893
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 3: sometimes what I do with clients is I'll give everyone

894
00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 3: a seed and I'll ask them to plant it and

895
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 3: take care of it.

896
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: And that's like an.

897
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 3: Old way of just learning growth, because it's so painful

898
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 3: to be watering something every day and not seeing it grow,

899
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,560
Speaker 3: only to realize it is growing. Or I remember something

900
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,000
Speaker 3: they gave us in the monastery was like they.

901
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:52,719
Speaker 2: Gave us this rope.

902
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 3: There was like this really old rope and it was

903
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 3: already tied and we were asked to untie it. And

904
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:01,279
Speaker 3: it's like most of us spent the whole of the

905
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 3: first day we got it trying to untie it and failing. Yeah,

906
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 3: only by like day twenty one to realize all we

907
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 3: have to do is pull it a little bit every

908
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 3: day and hopefully it would unravel because it was so tight,

909
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 3: and so even if you sat there all day, you

910
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 3: would just you'd go mental and you wouldn't achieve anything else.

911
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,960
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it's the wilful will.

912
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 3: Right.

913
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: It's like wanting it a certain way, needing it a

914
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,960
Speaker 1: certain way, trying to force it as opposed to stepping

915
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: back and letting it be what it is. It's like

916
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 1: the way our mind works. Whatever is happening now you

917
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: will look back on sometime in the future as formative

918
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 1: to who you become.

919
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:40,959
Speaker 2: Right, and yet in.

920
00:44:40,880 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 1: This moment, all we're doing is trying to make it

921
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 1: something other than it is. Right, Like, we will look

922
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:48,759
Speaker 1: back on COVID and see the good in it, the

923
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 1: lessons that came from it, the reminders that gave us

924
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: the weird experiences we had, the connections, all of that.

925
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: We'll look at that, but in that moment, all we're

926
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: thinking about is when this will be over. Whose fault

927
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 1: it is? You know what it's cost us, right, Freud says,

928
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:08,880
Speaker 1: in retrospect, the struggle will strike you as most beautiful,

929
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: but it seems it's such a it's such a shame,

930
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:17,520
Speaker 1: so unnecessary to deprive yourself of understanding the beauty of it. Now.

931
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: Certainly perspective adds to it, allows you to see it differently.

932
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: But what if you could just not feel guilty, worried, anxious, resentful,

933
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: like you know in the future this will be a story, right,

934
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: you'll have learned, But you could give yourself the gift

935
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: of at least some of that now by accepting it

936
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: and just seeing it as what it is in front

937
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: of you, that it's practiced.

938
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

939
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 3: And the challenge, I guess is that because we've not

940
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 3: had an experience, maybe an early childhood or our teens,

941
00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 3: where we saw that where it was like we went

942
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 3: through a difficulty, we built discipline and we got over it,

943
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 3: or we learned from as you're saying, I find that

944
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 3: a lot of people have experienced difficulty, but then they

945
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,760
Speaker 3: were given comfort or shelter, or the difficulty was somehow

946
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 3: removed or left, so you never got the opportunity to

947
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 3: build the discipline muscle, if that makes sense. My wife

948
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 3: will love to talk about like for her, she went

949
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 3: through a difficulty, like her parents would come and save

950
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 3: the day. Yeah, right, someone would swoop in and solve

951
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 3: the issue. Her sister would do her homework for her.

952
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 3: And so as that happened more and more and more,

953
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: it created this behavior of someone will save the day

954
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 3: that I don't need to build a discipline around this.

955
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: Obviously saving is coming from good place. The other thing

956
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: we do is we tell it's so bad that that

957
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: happened to you. I'm so sorry you're this victim. Right,

958
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 1: Like the first year of COVID, they would describe for

959
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: kids that this was like a lost year. And I

960
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 1: just remember.

961
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 2: Thinking, like how that language.

962
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: Patronizing but also self fulfilling. That was for kids. Like

963
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:58,879
Speaker 1: when I would talk to my grandparents or all people

964
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: that lived through the Depression or the Second World War,

965
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,880
Speaker 1: which were by the way, a lot longer than COVID,

966
00:47:03,960 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: they weren't like, oh it was a lost time. It

967
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: was a transformative, formative experience that in retrospect made them

968
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,920
Speaker 1: who they were. That maybe even if you'd ask them

969
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: if they would have wanted things to be different, they

970
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: would have said no. And we have the power to

971
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 1: transform whatever we're going through into that thing. So yeah,

972
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 1: by rescuing someone, you're depriving them of that thing. But

973
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,359
Speaker 1: also by telling them that there's no there's nothing in

974
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 1: this thing that it's indisputably inarguably bad, is to deprive

975
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:40,479
Speaker 1: them of the agency, the perspective, the gift that they

976
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: have in front of them, if they choose to see

977
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: it that way. And we should emerge from this period

978
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: the very least, as you said, like if you haven't

979
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 1: been through stuff like this before, you just lived through

980
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,799
Speaker 1: an event of historic proportions, Like you just lived through

981
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: event that your kids and your grandchildren future generations will

982
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: marvel at, and you emerge unscathed, maybe even improved in

983
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: some ways, Like you, you should emerge from this with

984
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 1: a real sense of what you're capable of enduring and

985
00:48:08,920 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 1: surviving and adjusting towards. And that should give you a

986
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:15,640
Speaker 1: lot of confidence as you wake up and you experience

987
00:48:15,719 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: things that are so microscopic compared to that thing, right,

988
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: and you should feel armed with a certain set of

989
00:48:25,400 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: weapons or tools that maybe you didn't have before, Like

990
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 1: you've been knocked around and you didn't get knocked down.

991
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: That's that's powerful.

992
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And in my own little way, it's

993
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 3: like while I was going through my surgery, it was

994
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:41,840
Speaker 3: exactly that. It's like I can either sit here and

995
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 3: think this is the worst, because it did feel like

996
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 3: the worst for someone who's active, always on planes and

997
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 3: always traveling, always working, to be completely off and it

998
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 3: wasn't even RESTful because it was painful, Like it wasn't

999
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 3: RESTful time. Everyone's like, we didn't work for a month,

1000
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 3: it must have been amazing. I was like, well, no,

1001
00:48:57,920 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 3: I was in pain.

1002
00:48:58,680 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1003
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 3: But the idea that my mind at the time was like,

1004
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 3: this is the worst. I hate this, and when's it

1005
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: going to be over right, which is the same as COVID,

1006
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,239
Speaker 3: which is the same as anything like those are the

1007
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,720
Speaker 3: three thoughts that go through I had pretty much, whether

1008
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 3: it's surgery covered or anything else that's going on. And

1009
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 3: having to reframe those thoughts in the moment made it

1010
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 3: become a really beautiful process at the time, and now

1011
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 3: a sense of gratitude for it having moved on. But

1012
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 3: that's what I'm hearing from you, is like you will reflect, well,

1013
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 3: hopefully you'll reflect afterwards, but there is a bit of

1014
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 3: reconfiguration that has to happen at the time.

1015
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a story about Phil Jackson when he's the

1016
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,560
Speaker 1: coach of the Lakers. He gets this back surgery. He's

1017
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: super bad back surgery, and he can't stand on the sideline.

1018
00:49:44,960 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: He has to sit in a chair, and the way

1019
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 1: they had him sit it's like a row back. And

1020
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,960
Speaker 1: so suddenly all the things that he's comfortable with as

1021
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 1: a coach are not possible. He's not able to pace

1022
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,560
Speaker 1: the sidelines, get up in people's faces, intervene, direct people,

1023
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 1: just to sit back is to watch. It's like the

1024
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: antithesis of his coaching style. And yet he's a sort

1025
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: of a Zen buddhiska stage guy. He realizes that this

1026
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: is practice that he realizes that now the team's having

1027
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:16,720
Speaker 1: to come to him. Now the team's having to solve

1028
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: some of the problems. He's having to explore a different

1029
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: way of communicating. He's having to communicate verbally better than physically.

1030
00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: It's a way to change adjust he's forced to do

1031
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: it differently and thus learns some things he wants to

1032
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: continue doing differently. Now realizes he was taking for granted

1033
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,600
Speaker 1: certain things that are actually super important. Right, and so

1034
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 1: you can always take from this like it's this forced

1035
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 1: lifestyle experiment. Just see it as that, right, Like COVID

1036
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,520
Speaker 1: the biggest forced lifestyle experiment in human history. Things that

1037
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,800
Speaker 1: people said were impossible had to become possible, remote work,

1038
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: you know, e commerce, all these things, And then you

1039
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 1: want to throw that away by saying I can't wait

1040
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: for things to go back to normal. Right, It's like

1041
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: normal is what caused this, Right, Normal was you before

1042
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: you learned the things that you learned in that intervening time.

1043
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: And for COVID, for Phil Jackson's back surgery, insert whatever

1044
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: disruptive event you're undergoing in your life. Yeah, you don't

1045
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: want things to go back to how they were. You

1046
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 1: want them to go to a new place where you

1047
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,080
Speaker 1: have the old perspective and the new perspective fused into

1048
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: something new. When Marx realis is the impediment to action

1049
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 1: advance is actually stands in the way becomes a way.

1050
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 1: The Zen expression is the obstacles the path same East

1051
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: West coming to the same idea. It's like, this thing

1052
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 1: has opportunities inside it to make you better, should you

1053
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 1: choose to accept them?

1054
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what I like. It's not the simplistic

1055
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,439
Speaker 3: idea of and I'm aways trying to address this. It's

1056
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 3: not the simplistic idea of look for the positive in

1057
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 3: the negative, right, Like, that's not what we're saying here.

1058
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 3: This isn't the idea of like, oh, there's a beautiful

1059
00:51:56,920 --> 00:51:59,439
Speaker 3: side to this. That's not the point. Let's get into

1060
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 3: that a bit, because I feel like people kind of

1061
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:02,960
Speaker 3: simplify and go, oh no, that just yeah, we'll just

1062
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 3: look for the silver lining, which is not what we're saying.

1063
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 1: Would you know? The Stockdale paradox. So James Stockdale, he

1064
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: studies Stoic philosophy and then he shot down over Vietnam

1065
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,000
Speaker 1: and he's taken prisoner. It's been seven years horribly tortured

1066
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,359
Speaker 1: in this Vietnamese prison camp. Afterwards, he's speaking to Jim

1067
00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 1: Collins wrote who writes good to Great, and he formulates

1068
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 1: what becomes known as the Stockdale paradox. Jim con says,

1069
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:30,319
Speaker 1: who has the worst trouble in the prison camp and

1070
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 1: Stockdale says, Oh, that's easy. The optimists, right, the people

1071
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 1: who thought I'm going to be out by Christmas, I'm

1072
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: going to be out by the spring. This isn't going

1073
00:52:37,640 --> 00:52:40,479
Speaker 1: to be hard. When Stockdale's parachuting into this camp, he says,

1074
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: I am leaving the world of technology and entering the

1075
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,800
Speaker 1: world of Epictetus. He says, it's going to be seven

1076
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 1: years at least, But he said, he said, the first

1077
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: step is I had to unflinchingly accept the reality of

1078
00:52:52,520 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: my situation, which is that I might not get out,

1079
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,359
Speaker 1: which is that I'm probably going to be tortured, which

1080
00:52:57,400 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: is that I'm not in control, which is that there

1081
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: is so much unknown pain and suffering ahead. I have

1082
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:06,520
Speaker 1: to accept that this is not gonna be fun. This

1083
00:53:06,560 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: is not gonna be easy, he says. But simultaneously, I

1084
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 1: said to myself, if I get out, I want to

1085
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 1: have transformed this into something that in retrospect I would

1086
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 1: not have traded away. That's the paradox of what we're

1087
00:53:22,640 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 1: talking about. Stuff happens. Life gets in the way. You

1088
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 1: lose someone, your company goes bankrupt, the market shifts, you know,

1089
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: a natural disaster. Your life can get flipped upside down

1090
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: at a moment's notice. You have to unflinchingly accept the

1091
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 1: reality of that situation, the unfairness, the unexpectedness of it,

1092
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: your blamelessness or your blame worthiness for it, and then

1093
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: simultaneously go, Okay, I'm not saying this is wonderful, that

1094
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad it happened, but I can make choices now

1095
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: that derive positive benefits from this that make me better

1096
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 1: for having gone through this. And I was at the

1097
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 1: beginning of the pandemic, in the middle of opening this bookstore.

1098
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: I'd sunk my life savings into opening this bookstore that

1099
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: by the time it was ready, it was impossible to open.

1100
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: It was looking like this enormous failure mistake, you know,

1101
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 1: like albatross around my neck. And I wrote this note

1102
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,800
Speaker 1: card to myself, and I have a picture because I

1103
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: I wrote it to myself. I was thinking about every

1104
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: day and I took the picture in front of the bookstore,

1105
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: and I just wrote to myself, I said, twenty twenty

1106
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: is a test will make you a better person or

1107
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 1: a worse one. Right, I have no idea whether the

1108
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 1: bookstore will work. I have no idea where things are going,

1109
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: I have no idea what life is going to look

1110
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: like what I control inside that is to I emerge

1111
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:48,239
Speaker 1: from it a better person, right, more community minded, a

1112
00:54:48,280 --> 00:54:51,760
Speaker 1: better spouse, a better thinker, a better writer, more patient,

1113
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: more self aware. Those are the things I control within it.

1114
00:54:55,239 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: And so when we say the obstacle is the way,

1115
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,280
Speaker 1: we're not like, oh it's great, this terrible thing happened

1116
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: to me, but you're saying what I took from this

1117
00:55:03,239 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: terrible thing, or maybe you're trying to strip the labels altogether,

1118
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: but you're saying what I took from this was positive

1119
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 1: I made from it. That's the paradox.

1120
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's a great breakdown.

1121
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:15,560
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you went into that, because, yeah, I've

1122
00:55:15,600 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 3: heard the example in the same way of when there

1123
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 3: were soldiers who said we'll be home by Christmas, their

1124
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,720
Speaker 3: hope were shattered because they weren't home by Christmas. And

1125
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,759
Speaker 3: whereas the people who said, we'll figure out a way

1126
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: to get home, and if we get home, we'll see

1127
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 3: our family, and that person was more likely to be

1128
00:55:33,080 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 3: able to deal with the fact that it didn't happen

1129
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 3: by this time. And I think I think that's become

1130
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 3: Our obsession with controlling time is partly where that comes

1131
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,640
Speaker 3: from where it's like, we want this done by this time,

1132
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 3: and then whether it's positive or difficult, when it doesn't happen,

1133
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 3: we're completely demoralized, right Like, it's almost like it's all

1134
00:55:53,640 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 3: over just because it didn't have happened by an arbitrary date.

1135
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:02,320
Speaker 1: We're setting yourself up for disappointing or frustration or resentment

1136
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: or despair by attaching to an outcome that's not yours.

1137
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:10,040
Speaker 1: If you get lucky, sure you'll feel wonderful. But if

1138
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 1: you work for years on a book and success or

1139
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 1: failure of it was did it win awards? Did it

1140
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 1: sell lots of copies? Did your parents read it? You know,

1141
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,759
Speaker 1: those are things that are not in your control. But

1142
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,720
Speaker 1: if it was, I understand that's better than when I started.

1143
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,920
Speaker 1: I am more confident than I was when I started.

1144
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:35,120
Speaker 1: You know, Like I said something I got on the

1145
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:39,920
Speaker 1: page what I thought only in my head at the beginning,

1146
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,320
Speaker 1: right Like, when you move the outcome or the goal

1147
00:56:44,719 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: to something that's up to you, you'll always win. And

1148
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 1: I think that's what wise people do. It's not that

1149
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:55,799
Speaker 1: they're not ambitious. They are ambitious, but their ambition is

1150
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: things that are up to them and So when Marcus

1151
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: is saying better wrestler as a part to better philosopher,

1152
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: better friend, whatever, he's shifting from like this external, societal

1153
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:11,360
Speaker 1: driven thing to this internal thing that he controls that.

1154
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 2: He gets to judge the success.

1155
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 1: Or failure on. And it's not so quantifiable either, It's

1156
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 1: something deeper, more human, more connected. And so as you

1157
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: shift that, not only do I actually think you do

1158
00:57:26,040 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 1: better work, but you are increasing your chances of feeling

1159
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: good about yourself at the end of that.

1160
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1161
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,760
Speaker 3: And I think the challenge Ryan, though, is that today

1162
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:38,960
Speaker 3: we want both right. We want the feeling of I

1163
00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 3: did something that was true to me and it resonated

1164
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 3: with a lot of people or whatever that means, right,

1165
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 3: And I feel like that's where everyone kind of gets stuck,

1166
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,439
Speaker 3: because it's like, you know, especially when people watch people

1167
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 3: do what they love and it gets received, well, it's like, oh,

1168
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 3: well I want to do that too. Where do you

1169
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 3: think people go wrong in that journey? Because like what

1170
00:58:00,120 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 3: the mistakes we make on that path? Because I feel

1171
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 3: like that's pretty much where people are headed.

1172
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean I think we're sometimes not honest

1173
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,600
Speaker 1: with You're like, I'm just I want this album to

1174
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 1: be true to who I want to be my artistic expression.

1175
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. That's why you made all these sort

1176
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: of individualistic decisions. But deep down you have this sort

1177
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:24,200
Speaker 1: of secret lie, which is that you're actually judging yourself

1178
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,160
Speaker 1: on where it lands on the billboard.

1179
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:26,479
Speaker 2: Yes.

1180
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:29,120
Speaker 1: Right, so that's the worst of both, right, because you're

1181
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: not going, well, what do I need to do to

1182
00:58:30,560 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 1: be commercially successful, and I'm consistently judging myself on whether

1183
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: it was commercially successful or not, you set yourself up

1184
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:41,880
Speaker 1: for maximum disappointment. But if you can say, look here,

1185
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 1: my goal is to do my absolute best. My goal

1186
00:58:45,720 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: here is to get to the truth of what I'm saying,

1187
00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: to express what's true inside here. And that's what I'm

1188
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: going to focus on. And I'm not going to waste

1189
00:58:52,720 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: any time on these other things. I actually do think

1190
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm sure you found this that that does make better work,

1191
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,480
Speaker 1: It makes truer work, makes more authentic work, more relatable work.

1192
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 1: It actually does make a better product, but only if

1193
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: you are fully and honestly and deeply committed to doing it.

1194
00:59:11,240 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: It can't be like I'm making the charitable donation. I'm

1195
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: doing it anonymously. But I still hope everyone sees how

1196
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:22,920
Speaker 1: wonderful I am. You know what I mean. It's you

1197
00:59:22,960 --> 00:59:25,360
Speaker 1: can't have your cake and eat it too.

1198
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. And I think it goes back to what

1199
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:29,160
Speaker 3: you were saying a few moments ago, where it's like

1200
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 3: you have to accept the reality, which includes your own intention.

1201
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 3: Like I know that I like creating things that are

1202
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 3: true to me but are commercially successful. That is important

1203
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 3: to me, is a value of mine. And I'm okay

1204
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:44,360
Speaker 3: with that, yeah, because I don't want to lie about

1205
00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 3: those things to myself at all.

1206
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 2: Because I enjoy.

1207
00:59:48,200 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 3: The idea of creating thoughts and ideas that can affect

1208
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 3: lots of people like that. That is something that gives

1209
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,400
Speaker 3: me a sense of feeling that I've understood an idea

1210
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 3: and been able to communicate it well enough. I guess

1211
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 3: what I'm saying is that it comes back to what

1212
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 3: you were saying at the beginning, that I don't set

1213
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 3: out to write a commercially successful book or launch something

1214
01:00:08,920 --> 01:00:11,320
Speaker 3: commercially like that isn't what you set out to do.

1215
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 3: Set out to understand, articulate, communicate with myself and write

1216
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 3: an incredible book. And then that leads to that but

1217
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 3: at some part of that process you have to think

1218
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 3: about the sharing of it.

1219
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course. And I've learned a lot from you

1220
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:27,960
Speaker 1: in this regard, like you're not helping yourself or your

1221
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: ideas by rejecting what makes them accessible or shareable or

1222
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:37,560
Speaker 1: turning your nose up at this tool or that tool.

1223
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: Like look like, when I want to learn about an idea,

1224
01:00:41,000 --> 01:00:42,960
Speaker 1: I want to read long form books about it. That's

1225
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,960
Speaker 1: the medium that I'm comfortable in. I don't think TikTok,

1226
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:51,439
Speaker 1: but millions of people do think TikTok or Instagram. And

1227
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 1: to turn your nose up or close your heart off

1228
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: to those people because they're not like you. It's not

1229
01:00:57,160 --> 01:01:00,000
Speaker 1: just snobbish, but if you actually care about the ideas,

1230
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:01,200
Speaker 1: it's selfish.

1231
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:03,440
Speaker 2: And so I don't think.

1232
01:01:03,280 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: They're mutually exclusive. But I also think if you're on

1233
01:01:07,360 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 1: those platforms and you're letting the algorithm decide what you

1234
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 1: do and don't do, you are sacrificing the whole reason

1235
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: you became a creator in the first place.

1236
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:19,560
Speaker 3: Correct, Absolutely, And I think that's the balance, right. It's

1237
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 3: like there's people who just completely sell out for the algorithm,

1238
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 3: and then there's the selfish creator or the snobbish creator

1239
01:01:26,800 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 3: on the other end, who thinks they're too cool. Like

1240
01:01:30,280 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 3: it's kind of like this badge of honor where it's like, oh,

1241
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 3: I don't need to do that, like I don't care

1242
01:01:34,040 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 3: about and I'm like, that defeats the whole point, because

1243
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:42,280
Speaker 3: I'm hoping this book was a compassionate expression of service, hopefully,

1244
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,520
Speaker 3: and maybe it wasn't. Maybe it just was a selfish,

1245
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,800
Speaker 3: arrogant move of professing your ideas. And that's like the

1246
01:01:47,800 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 3: best thing about it. And so you have sellouts on

1247
01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 3: one and you have selfish on the other end. And

1248
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,040
Speaker 3: to me, like service is kind of in the middle

1249
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:56,960
Speaker 3: where it's like service means I understand people's needs and

1250
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 3: interests and concerns and where they are, but I always

1251
01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 3: have to than what's most beneficial?

1252
01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:05,160
Speaker 1: What's if you meet people where they are and like

1253
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 1: there's almost agreed to it. It's like, well, I wrote

1254
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:09,600
Speaker 1: in a book, if you want to hear it, you

1255
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: can buy it, right. Well, what if they're not ready

1256
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: for that, What if they're too busy for that? What

1257
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 1: if they already did buy it, but they just need

1258
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: a reminder of it, right, And so there's different just

1259
01:02:19,680 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 1: in the way that like, look, I also read in English,

1260
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: that's the only language that I speak. But I don't

1261
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 1: turn up my nose that all these different translations. I go, oh, yeah,

1262
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 1: there's a process. These ideas get translated in those languages

1263
01:02:31,120 --> 01:02:33,920
Speaker 1: and they reach people who otherwise wouldn't have consumed it.

1264
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:37,720
Speaker 1: And understanding that different people have different native languages. Some

1265
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:40,600
Speaker 1: people like audiobooks, some people like podcasts, some people like

1266
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 1: this social network or that social network, and that by

1267
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,439
Speaker 1: thinking that you know one is superior to the other,

1268
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:50,680
Speaker 1: in fact, you should be translating or working all these

1269
01:02:50,720 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: different areas long form, short form, audio, video, text, what

1270
01:02:56,000 --> 01:03:00,280
Speaker 1: you should be everywhere that's possible. And understanding that the

1271
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:04,880
Speaker 1: win is that the ideas are reaching people and helping

1272
01:03:04,920 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 1: them in their life. If some of those things translate

1273
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:12,040
Speaker 1: to sales or followers, great, But like I always think about,

1274
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:13,919
Speaker 1: like again, what is success at the end of the day,

1275
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,320
Speaker 1: Like if you think sold zero copies, but it changed

1276
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: the world, you'd be like that was that that was

1277
01:03:19,880 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: a win? So why don't you just do the stuff

1278
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:27,000
Speaker 1: that changes the world and trust again, trust the process

1279
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,720
Speaker 1: that you'll probably be able to make a living.

1280
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and most things that do change the world or

1281
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 3: have an impact started non commercially right, like in that

1282
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:40,240
Speaker 3: sense of especially creational ideas. I mean, maybe not businesses,

1283
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,200
Speaker 3: but the ideas. Like when I started creating content, even

1284
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:44,960
Speaker 3: the first few interviews I did with you, like, I

1285
01:03:45,000 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 3: didn't I mean that Na's that that whole NASA. I

1286
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 3: never got paid for that whole series. I was interviewing

1287
01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 3: authors every week because I was fascinated by the idea

1288
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 3: that I get to sit down with people that I

1289
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 3: find interesting.

1290
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 1: You're also putting in your hours, y'are getting good at

1291
01:03:57,960 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: this again?

1292
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:00,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and you getting good at it, You're

1293
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 3: enjoying it. You get to meet awesome people. And even

1294
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 3: even when we did the show a HFF post, it

1295
01:04:05,560 --> 01:04:08,120
Speaker 3: was like I was leading the show of what kind

1296
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 3: of show we wanted it to be. It wasn't like

1297
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 3: it was already set up. And so yeah, I look

1298
01:04:12,880 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 3: back and I think like all stuff that had an

1299
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:18,440
Speaker 3: impact and grew was always from that deep intention, pure

1300
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 3: intention of I want to create something that will hopefully

1301
01:04:21,080 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 3: help people have these conversations. And that was what it

1302
01:04:24,640 --> 01:04:27,120
Speaker 3: was for me. I felt when I started creating content,

1303
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 3: there weren't there were so many people who had deep

1304
01:04:30,240 --> 01:04:35,200
Speaker 3: thoughtful conversations offline, but there was no spaces online really

1305
01:04:35,240 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 3: to have those, or there wasn't a piece of content

1306
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:38,640
Speaker 3: you'd send to your friend and be like did you

1307
01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 3: see this? Like have we talked about this? And I

1308
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:44,280
Speaker 3: wanted to create an excuse for people to have more meaningful,

1309
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 3: thoughtful conversations based on ideas.

1310
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I think at the end of the day,

1311
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: it's like, you create a lot of value and if

1312
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,920
Speaker 1: you can capture a small percentage of it, you're good, right,

1313
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:55,480
Speaker 1: Like I think about Craigslist, Like the vast majority of

1314
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,840
Speaker 1: stuff on Craigslist has been free since the very beginning it.

1315
01:04:58,920 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: Craigslist still makes up million dollars a year in revenue.

1316
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: Like when you create a lot of value, I create

1317
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: so much content, and like the only part that is

1318
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:12,280
Speaker 1: not free are the books, right, And the books fund

1319
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: that work, and then that work also funds the books.

1320
01:05:14,600 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 1: It's you're creating kind of a flywheel of stuff. I

1321
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 1: was thinking about one of my books that hasn't sold

1322
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:21,600
Speaker 1: as well as the.

1323
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 2: Other books, which one is it.

1324
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: Lives of the Stoics is different than my other books.

1325
01:05:26,720 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 1: But I personally used and then also have reused stuff

1326
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 1: that I learned while writing that book almost every single day.

1327
01:05:35,440 --> 01:05:38,520
Speaker 1: So like the monetization, you know, to use that word,

1328
01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 1: the value creation, there was a personal one. And the

1329
01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:45,520
Speaker 1: book is done extremely well by like any standard, but

1330
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: like the primary beneficiary was me. Yes, And again, if

1331
01:05:50,920 --> 01:05:54,000
Speaker 1: whatever you're doing, you can say, look, the primary beneficiary

1332
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 1: of this is me having gone through it, changing, developing, learning,

1333
01:05:59,360 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: And then the byproduct is that I paid my rent

1334
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 1: or that like you know, this happened that then you've

1335
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 1: won and all the stuff that's out of your control

1336
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: is the extra. Yes, that's where you want to be.

1337
01:06:12,280 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I can agree more. And that requires just

1338
01:06:15,200 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 3: so much. I think that requires refining of the intention.

1339
01:06:19,400 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 3: It requires having a sense of belief and confidence. I

1340
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 3: think for me it was the other and for you too,

1341
01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 3: from your journey that we've talked about before, Like I

1342
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 3: spent ten years doing this without any followers or without

1343
01:06:32,520 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 3: any commercial edit to it anyway, because it was all

1344
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 3: offline and it was speaking to rooms of five to

1345
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 3: ten people if they showed up, and so it was

1346
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 3: like for so long I was doing it without any

1347
01:06:42,920 --> 01:06:44,760
Speaker 3: care of how far it went because.

1348
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,720
Speaker 2: It was just so powerful, It was so beautiful to live.

1349
01:06:47,560 --> 01:06:49,880
Speaker 3: In that world of even if I had one meaningful

1350
01:06:49,880 --> 01:06:52,880
Speaker 3: conversation with someone after an event that would make my day,

1351
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 3: like I'd talk about it for weeks.

1352
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:57,120
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. I've been thinking about it lately. Yeah,

1353
01:06:57,160 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 1: the work that you're doing now or that I'm doing now,

1354
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: is the result of work you did a long time ago.

1355
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 1: It's a lagging indicator of sacrifice and commitment and study

1356
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: and practice from however long ago. Sometimes what keeps me

1357
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 1: up at night and as I go, but ten years

1358
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,600
Speaker 1: from now, fifteen years from now, am I putting in

1359
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 1: the work doing this stuff now that will pay off then?

1360
01:07:20,360 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 1: And how do you know? How do you know if

1361
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: success is this lagging indicator, or growth is this lagging

1362
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:30,920
Speaker 1: indicator of commitment? Now? How can you be sure that

1363
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 1: you are paying your dues?

1364
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 3: Yes, I'm so glad you said that, because I literally

1365
01:07:35,480 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 3: just I've been talking to my team about a few

1366
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,439
Speaker 3: things that we're doing. I've literally asked us to find

1367
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 3: three new coaches, Like I've literally gone. I've always learned

1368
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 3: through one to one coaching on mentorship, like that's my

1369
01:07:45,280 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 3: favorite apart from books, that is my favorite way of learning,

1370
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 3: and especially when it comes to self transformation. So I

1371
01:07:51,360 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 3: love ideas through books, but when it comes to me

1372
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 3: actually changing, I'm better when I'm working with one person

1373
01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 3: and getting mentorship of coaching.

1374
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:00,640
Speaker 1: So you're thinking about who are you who are your

1375
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:03,320
Speaker 1: teachers to get you to the next level level you

1376
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:05,280
Speaker 1: might not even know exists.

1377
01:08:04,960 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 3: Yet, correct, And so I'm trying to identify those people

1378
01:08:08,040 --> 01:08:10,120
Speaker 3: right now. So when I was a teen, I was

1379
01:08:10,160 --> 01:08:12,640
Speaker 3: reading Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, Steve Jobs right like,

1380
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 3: well Steve was a bit later actually, but Matin, Luther King,

1381
01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 3: Malcolm X, like, That's who I was reading at sixteen

1382
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:21,880
Speaker 3: years old. They were hugely formative in my ideology in

1383
01:08:21,960 --> 01:08:24,560
Speaker 3: so many ways. And then in my twenties, obviously I

1384
01:08:24,600 --> 01:08:27,439
Speaker 3: lived with the monks, so that was hugely that and

1385
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:29,679
Speaker 3: then when a public speaking school when I was eleven

1386
01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,800
Speaker 3: years old. So that has that has lasted far too long.

1387
01:08:32,800 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 3: It needs to be refined again. And so yeah, I

1388
01:08:35,720 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 3: completely agree with you. I look at all the skills

1389
01:08:37,680 --> 01:08:39,160
Speaker 3: I have today and I go where do they need

1390
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,000
Speaker 3: to be refined? And then I look at, well, what

1391
01:08:41,040 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 3: are the things I'm missing out on? Because I'm not

1392
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,599
Speaker 3: exposing myself now, I do think that I do find

1393
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 3: having the podcast very fortunate because I do get to

1394
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 3: sit down with a lot of people that I seek

1395
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,400
Speaker 3: mentorship from in an informal sense, and then I could

1396
01:08:55,400 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 3: be like, oh, I'm really going to do a deep

1397
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,640
Speaker 3: down on that person's book, or like Gable Matte was

1398
01:08:59,680 --> 01:09:02,600
Speaker 3: just yeah, he's amazing, like you know, and people have

1399
01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:04,120
Speaker 3: known about him for a long long time. This was

1400
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 3: the first time I interviewed him. But I'm like now

1401
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,479
Speaker 3: doing a backwards reading of all of his books.

1402
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:10,120
Speaker 2: Sure, and so I love that, you know.

1403
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:12,599
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like what rabbit holes are you falling down?

1404
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,720
Speaker 1: What sort of new It's like a great athlete. It's

1405
01:09:15,760 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: like on am My addings my game this off season totally,

1406
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 1: and like how do you not get complacent and coast

1407
01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:26,639
Speaker 1: because you could be coasting for a long time. Yeah,

1408
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: not real if your lost skills, your skills or your

1409
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:33,120
Speaker 1: speed is slowly decreasing before it and then it's it's

1410
01:09:33,160 --> 01:09:33,599
Speaker 1: too late.

1411
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:35,640
Speaker 3: Yeah that's such a good point. And I think the

1412
01:09:35,680 --> 01:09:36,960
Speaker 3: thing that hit me there with what you just said

1413
01:09:37,040 --> 01:09:39,240
Speaker 3: is just it's also, what skills do I need that

1414
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:41,640
Speaker 3: I'm not trying to see the results now? Yes, Like

1415
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 3: what is something I'm happy to let kind of simmer

1416
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:48,360
Speaker 3: and build and just organically grow, rather than like I'm

1417
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:50,160
Speaker 3: going to learn this skill because next week we're going

1418
01:09:50,200 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 3: to launch this thing. Like that's not what I'm talking about.

1419
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:54,040
Speaker 1: Well, all the things you were talking about that made

1420
01:09:54,040 --> 01:09:55,960
Speaker 1: you who you were, those were never means tune in

1421
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:58,880
Speaker 1: because the end was inconceivable, right, none of it didn't

1422
01:09:58,880 --> 01:10:03,000
Speaker 1: even exist. But somehow it was the perfect like training

1423
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:05,800
Speaker 1: montage for who you became. And how do you make

1424
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:11,639
Speaker 1: sure the montage is continuing as opposed to this once

1425
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:13,800
Speaker 1: in a formative thing. And then you know, every once

1426
01:10:13,800 --> 01:10:15,800
Speaker 1: in a while, do a talk and like it's the

1427
01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:17,599
Speaker 1: person before me. You're like, oh, you've been doing this

1428
01:10:17,640 --> 01:10:21,080
Speaker 1: a long time the exact same way, and you stopped.

1429
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:23,800
Speaker 1: You stopped, and you don't you don't want that.

1430
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly. And I think partly that's also me allowing myself,

1431
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:29,679
Speaker 3: at least for me, and I'm only talking about myself,

1432
01:10:29,720 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 3: but I think this is helpful for people. I think

1433
01:10:32,920 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 3: you have to allow yourself to become different things and

1434
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:41,000
Speaker 3: giving yourself permission to follow that bliss, as Joseph Tumble

1435
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:44,240
Speaker 3: would say, because right, for example, when I wrote think

1436
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 3: like a Monk, that was the kind of end and

1437
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 3: beginning of a new journey in my life, Like I

1438
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 3: was kind of encapsulating what I've learned of the last

1439
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 3: fifteen years, and then it was like, well, now I'm

1440
01:10:57,760 --> 01:10:59,400
Speaker 3: in a new space, like I'm a married man, now

1441
01:10:59,439 --> 01:11:02,519
Speaker 3: I'm I'm a business person, I'm so many more things.

1442
01:11:02,800 --> 01:11:04,320
Speaker 3: And so it was almost like me saying, Okay, well,

1443
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 3: I'm going to put this rapper on this right now.

1444
01:11:07,160 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 3: And now my next book's all about love. And there's

1445
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:10,920
Speaker 3: loads of people going Jay, like, why are you writing

1446
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:11,400
Speaker 3: about love?

1447
01:11:11,640 --> 01:11:11,800
Speaker 1: Why?

1448
01:11:11,880 --> 01:11:14,439
Speaker 3: And I was like, because I'm fascinated by love, and

1449
01:11:14,479 --> 01:11:18,240
Speaker 3: I'm okay with answering that question of why love. I

1450
01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:21,360
Speaker 3: don't want to continue to write books. I mean, by

1451
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:22,840
Speaker 3: the way, the Love Book is full of wisdom I

1452
01:11:22,880 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 3: learned during my time as a monk, of course it is.

1453
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:26,840
Speaker 3: But the point is that I don't want to be

1454
01:11:26,960 --> 01:11:29,280
Speaker 3: defined by that, and I don't want to limit myself

1455
01:11:29,320 --> 01:11:32,280
Speaker 3: to any human experience because then now I'm basically saying

1456
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,519
Speaker 3: I have to be this, and that's what performers do.

1457
01:11:34,840 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 3: I have to play this character for the rest of

1458
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:39,680
Speaker 3: my life, and then you get type cast in your

1459
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 3: own life and you don't let yourself, and I'm like,

1460
01:11:42,360 --> 01:11:44,160
Speaker 3: maybe my next book will definitely not be about love.

1461
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:45,600
Speaker 3: I know that for a fact. My next book's not

1462
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:47,760
Speaker 3: about love. But I'm okay with that. Like I like

1463
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:51,919
Speaker 3: the idea of I'm letting myself go in the direction

1464
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 3: of whatever I want to become, because why would I

1465
01:11:55,240 --> 01:11:55,640
Speaker 3: limit it?

1466
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:55,960
Speaker 2: Now?

1467
01:11:56,120 --> 01:11:59,000
Speaker 1: Well, we talked about like you know, cranking the shower handle.

1468
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:01,960
Speaker 1: That that's a muscle. My first book was about marketing. Yeah,

1469
01:12:02,040 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 1: I could have sold my next book about marketing, my

1470
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:05,840
Speaker 1: next book about market I could be still doing that.

1471
01:12:05,880 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 1: I could still be speaking about that first book. And

1472
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:09,439
Speaker 1: when I went to my publisher and I was like,

1473
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: you know, I want to write about this obscure school

1474
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,559
Speaker 1: of ancient philosophy, they were like what you know? They

1475
01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 1: were like, how's half sound? You know, they give me

1476
01:12:17,160 --> 01:12:19,200
Speaker 1: half what I got for my first book. But that's

1477
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:21,160
Speaker 1: that muscle. I was like, I don't care. This is

1478
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:23,920
Speaker 1: what I want to do. And so when you cultivate

1479
01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:27,519
Speaker 1: the ability to do that hard thing, the challenging thing,

1480
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 1: the different thing, the investing in, like being bad at

1481
01:12:32,200 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 1: something to get good at something, to think about tiger woods,

1482
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:37,040
Speaker 1: He's changed his swing three or four times, from the

1483
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:40,400
Speaker 1: ground up. That's the real muscle that prevents you from

1484
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:45,200
Speaker 1: sort of ossifying or declining. It's the ability to go like,

1485
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 1: just because I'm here doesn't mean I'm going to stay here.

1486
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:52,240
Speaker 1: I want to try and do something radically new or

1487
01:12:52,320 --> 01:12:56,720
Speaker 1: different that I hope will work commercially, but I know

1488
01:12:57,080 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 1: personally I will emerge bet right, Like, let's say that

1489
01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:03,479
Speaker 1: the book doesn't work. Sure it will. Let's say it

1490
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,439
Speaker 1: doesn't work, but you're like, hey, my marriage is better

1491
01:13:06,600 --> 01:13:10,360
Speaker 1: as having done it. It's a win from top to bottom, right,

1492
01:13:10,439 --> 01:13:12,840
Speaker 1: And then you know, you take that with you as

1493
01:13:12,880 --> 01:13:13,120
Speaker 1: you go.

1494
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 3: For me writing it, I wrote a completely different book

1495
01:13:16,439 --> 01:13:17,880
Speaker 3: than the one I thought I was going to write.

1496
01:13:17,880 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 3: And I wrote it three times. And the first time

1497
01:13:20,320 --> 01:13:24,439
Speaker 3: it was too raw and probably too like, it was

1498
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:27,479
Speaker 3: probably too tough to read. And the second time it

1499
01:13:27,520 --> 01:13:29,880
Speaker 3: was too shallow, like it was totally like not what

1500
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 3: I would want to do. And then the third time

1501
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:33,080
Speaker 3: we got the balance right. Yeah, it's funny what you

1502
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:35,680
Speaker 3: said about earlier, like the discipline of trying to get

1503
01:13:35,680 --> 01:13:37,919
Speaker 3: out of doing things wrong, but the discipline of ambition.

1504
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 3: Once you've had one success in anything, most people grip

1505
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 3: onto it because now you've had a taste of it,

1506
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:49,560
Speaker 3: and now you're scared that if you don't be that person.

1507
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:50,760
Speaker 2: You will lose it.

1508
01:13:51,520 --> 01:13:54,599
Speaker 3: And I just wouldn't want to live that way because

1509
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:58,000
Speaker 3: then you are just acting and not being.

1510
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 1: It's like what you think that having the success proving

1511
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: yourself should make you more courageous, less risk averse, because

1512
01:14:07,520 --> 01:14:11,200
Speaker 1: now you've done it, But in fact the opposite is true. Right,

1513
01:14:11,240 --> 01:14:15,360
Speaker 1: This is where courage and discipline are related. It's the opposite.

1514
01:14:15,439 --> 01:14:17,439
Speaker 1: Now you have something to lose. Now you don't want

1515
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 1: to change go in a different direction because the expectation

1516
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:24,320
Speaker 1: is set with the first one. So you imagine how

1517
01:14:24,360 --> 01:14:26,240
Speaker 1: scary it is Tiger Woods. You're like, you're the best

1518
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:27,760
Speaker 1: swing in golf, and you're like, but I think it

1519
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:29,599
Speaker 1: could be better, but I'm going to have to go

1520
01:14:29,680 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: have a bad swing for months to get to the

1521
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:36,759
Speaker 1: other side of that. And so the ability to say

1522
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,919
Speaker 1: I decide whether I'm successful or not not the external results.

1523
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,920
Speaker 1: And that's why I'm willing to go down this detour

1524
01:14:44,000 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 1: or try things differently, do this. That is that sort

1525
01:14:47,080 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: of key. Skill and courage and discipline have to be related.

1526
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,920
Speaker 1: They compliment each other. And yeah, like it was come

1527
01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: from my first book came out, it debuted on the

1528
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:58,679
Speaker 1: bestseller list. It was controvert. But if who I would

1529
01:14:58,680 --> 01:15:00,880
Speaker 1: be today, if I continue down that road, would be

1530
01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: a caricature of that first person, because I would have

1531
01:15:03,120 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 1: been been a copy of a copy of a copy

1532
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,280
Speaker 1: of a copy. Instead, I went towards something that was

1533
01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:09,280
Speaker 1: interesting to me, which opened up another thing that was

1534
01:15:09,280 --> 01:15:12,559
Speaker 1: interested in and that, like, I wouldn't be who I

1535
01:15:12,600 --> 01:15:15,320
Speaker 1: am had I done this safe thing. And so all

1536
01:15:15,360 --> 01:15:18,000
Speaker 1: they say, all growth is a leap in the dark, right,

1537
01:15:18,040 --> 01:15:21,760
Speaker 1: you have to continually take that leap. And one of

1538
01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:24,760
Speaker 1: the things I hope you learn when you do that is,

1539
01:15:25,120 --> 01:15:27,640
Speaker 1: first off, it's not as scary as you thought. But

1540
01:15:27,680 --> 01:15:31,559
Speaker 1: then sometimes like it doesn't work and you go, oh,

1541
01:15:31,600 --> 01:15:34,360
Speaker 1: but I feel great about it. And then it decouples

1542
01:15:34,760 --> 01:15:39,320
Speaker 1: external recognition from the internal process and then you go, yeah,

1543
01:15:39,360 --> 01:15:41,559
Speaker 1: I just do what I want. I do where it

1544
01:15:41,600 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 1: takes me, and a lot of times it works out.

1545
01:15:44,080 --> 01:15:48,200
Speaker 1: Sometimes it doesn't. But it's called being a creator for

1546
01:15:48,240 --> 01:15:52,000
Speaker 1: a reason. You're making something. You're the leader, you're not

1547
01:15:52,200 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 1: a follower.

1548
01:15:53,200 --> 01:15:55,080
Speaker 2: Well, I said, Ryn, this has been so much fun.

1549
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:56,000
Speaker 1: The best thing.

1550
01:15:56,160 --> 01:15:57,400
Speaker 2: I mean, we were talking for ages.

1551
01:15:57,439 --> 01:15:59,360
Speaker 3: I had no idea where the time went, but it's

1552
01:15:59,400 --> 01:16:02,639
Speaker 3: been such a joy, just always like just getting into

1553
01:16:02,720 --> 01:16:04,400
Speaker 3: with you. And I hope that everyone who's been listening,

1554
01:16:04,600 --> 01:16:06,720
Speaker 3: I hope you go and grab a copy of Discipline

1555
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:10,480
Speaker 3: is Destiny, The Power of Self Control by Ryan Holiday,

1556
01:16:10,840 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 3: and of course any of the other books that we've

1557
01:16:13,320 --> 01:16:15,599
Speaker 3: recommended before on the show. If you love this episode,

1558
01:16:15,600 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 3: you can go back and listen to a ton of

1559
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 3: other episodes with Ryan. And again, I hope today's episode

1560
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:24,840
Speaker 3: I tried not to do for everyone who's listening, and

1561
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:26,960
Speaker 3: you know I've been trying this more recently. I tried

1562
01:16:27,000 --> 01:16:30,880
Speaker 3: not to do a systematic conversation of breaking down how

1563
01:16:30,920 --> 01:16:34,479
Speaker 3: to build discipline and which you know, I've been avoiding

1564
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 3: that kind of hack kind of conversation recently, which I

1565
01:16:38,160 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 3: think you've been really resonating with because I think sometimes

1566
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:45,439
Speaker 3: the penny that needs to drop isn't the how too.

1567
01:16:45,760 --> 01:16:48,600
Speaker 3: It's kind of like the churning of the idea in

1568
01:16:48,640 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 3: your own self of coming closer to what it truly

1569
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:54,439
Speaker 3: means for you and making sense of it. So that's

1570
01:16:54,439 --> 01:16:57,120
Speaker 3: been my attempt at least, and I hope that's coming through.

1571
01:16:57,160 --> 01:16:59,000
Speaker 3: I hope you enjoyed this, please do give me feedback

1572
01:16:59,040 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 3: on Twitter, Instagram, tag Ryan and I both with your

1573
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,559
Speaker 3: greatest insights the nuggets of wisdom, and we'll see you

1574
01:17:05,560 --> 01:17:06,920
Speaker 3: on another episode of On Purpose.

1575
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:07,879
Speaker 2: Thank you everyone.

1576
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 3: If you love this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with

1577
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:14,200
Speaker 3: doctor Daniel Ahman on how to change your life by

1578
01:17:14,280 --> 01:17:15,160
Speaker 3: changing your brain.

1579
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:20,000
Speaker 1: Everything in moderation, which is the gateway thought to hell.

1580
01:17:20,560 --> 01:17:22,120
Speaker 1: It's the gateway.

1581
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:22,719
Speaker 2: Thought to cheating.

1582
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:26,040
Speaker 1: As soon as you hear someone say everything in moderation,

1583
01:17:26,360 --> 01:17:28,120
Speaker 1: they're going to do something bad for their brain.