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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media, Hello, and welcome to cool people did

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Speaker 1: cool stuff. I keep saying weekly reminder, but it's really

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Speaker 1: a twice weekly reminder, except sometimes I tell you it's

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Speaker 1: twice weekly, and then I always in the middle of

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Speaker 1: this sense change what it is because I never write

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Speaker 1: it down. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy, and with me

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Speaker 1: today is my guest Juel Monique.

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Speaker 2: Hi. How are you hey, Margaret? I'm good, I'd be here.

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Speaker 1: What people might have noticed, if they are as strange

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Speaker 1: about format of shows and making them always consistent as

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Speaker 1: my head is, is that last time we didn't mention

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Speaker 1: that we have a producer named Sophie who isn't on

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Speaker 1: the call, And because Sophie wasn't on the call, I

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Speaker 1: forgot to tell everyone that we have an audio engineer

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Speaker 1: named Eva hi Eva hey Eva and our theme music

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Speaker 1: was written for us by unwoman. And this is part

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Speaker 1: two of a two parter about the National Lawyer's Guild,

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Speaker 1: the topic that when I first picked it, I have

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Speaker 1: to admit I was like, oh, I'll probably have to

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Speaker 1: do like part one the National Lawyer's Guild, and then

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Speaker 1: like something else for part two, like no, they are

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Speaker 1: so cool and it's so much.

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Speaker 2: You also give us such a good lead into their

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Speaker 2: history and why they need to exist. So I feel

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Speaker 2: like we're getting a full picture of the world at

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Speaker 2: the time to be like, hey, the necessity of this group, yeah,

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Speaker 2: very vital.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really hard to imagine having been an activist

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Speaker 1: in the United States without the NLG. And that's gonna

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Speaker 1: come up more and more as we go through today's episode.

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Speaker 1: So where we last left our heroes, they had just

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Speaker 1: gotten together in New York and been like, we should

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Speaker 1: start this thing. We're going to call it the National

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Speaker 1: Lawyer's Guild. And then they got twenty five hundred of

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Speaker 1: their closest friends to start a bunch of chapters and

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Speaker 1: a bunch of cities and came out the gates strong.

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Speaker 1: And it really was that thing where it was liberals,

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Speaker 1: progressives and radicals all working together. Spoiler, one group of

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Speaker 1: those is going to sell out the rest, you can

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Speaker 1: probably guess, but we'll get to that.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 1: So, they hold their first convention in early nineteen thirty seven,

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Speaker 1: and among the things that they agree to at the

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Speaker 1: first convention is that literally is the first thing mentioned

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Speaker 1: in the history that I read of it, demanding anti

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Speaker 1: lynching laws.

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Speaker 2: Oh beautiful, great place to start. Ey, Yeah, random people

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Speaker 2: should not be able to kill other citizens. I don't

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Speaker 2: know if you know, it's kind of horrifying. It's not

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Speaker 2: great tramples all over our civil liberty. It's like real messy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one of those things where you're like, man,

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Speaker 1: why they need to do that? And I know why

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Speaker 1: they need to do it because I read history. But look,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't be able to murder people who are in custom.

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Speaker 2: It's intain that anyone was able to ever argue against it.

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Speaker 2: And essentially the argument to my understanding of Plato essentially, well,

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Speaker 2: they're so mad we enslaved them. Of course they're going

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Speaker 2: to be violently attacking us. We have to be able

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Speaker 2: to attack first, you know, a backwards ask way if

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Speaker 2: they is bananas horrifying, and there's.

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Speaker 1: A lot of it was like, well, if I had

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Speaker 1: been treated that way, I'd probably try And those people,

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Speaker 1: like people who are like.

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Speaker 2: Black people, would to slave white people. Nobody has time

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Speaker 2: for that. Man thinking about that, we do not want

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Speaker 2: to do that totally seriously.

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Speaker 1: It's like, how like Ireland didn't turn around to become

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Speaker 1: a colonial power individual Irish people in the diaspora did

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Speaker 1: but like.

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Speaker 2: Sure, sure, sure, but that as that nation. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: instead they support Palestine, like but you know, has some

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Speaker 2: sensible thought. Wow. Crazy.

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Speaker 1: So the first thing that I read demanding anti lynching loss.

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Speaker 1: They also they wanted to create laws to help support

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Speaker 1: collective bargaining, which is, you know, unions doing their thing,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to give us social security. I'm actually

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Speaker 1: gonna do a whole series of once I finished this,

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Speaker 1: like protest movement, ultra globalization, I'm probably gonna shift into

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Speaker 1: doing a series of all the stuff that Trump is

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Speaker 1: working to take away from us that had to be built.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, And so I'm going to do a history

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Speaker 1: on social security at some point. And what's funny, Well,

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Speaker 1: I find it funny because I find it really interesting

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Speaker 1: when anarchists do things that you wouldn't expect them to.

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Speaker 1: The big, fat, huge history of Social Security was written

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Speaker 1: by like an anarchist punk and it's called The People's Pension.

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Speaker 1: It's like eight hundred pages long. This is why I

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Speaker 1: haven't done the.

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Speaker 2: Episode about social security yet. I love anarchists. That's so

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Speaker 2: I want no order. But also, what if we just

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Speaker 2: made sure everybody was comfortable and okay with money. I

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Speaker 2: bet that would solve a lot of issues medical, crime wise,

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Speaker 2: you know. Totally brilliant, brilliant.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing that NALG tried to do was

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Speaker 1: try to get the US to stop being neutral in

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Speaker 1: the Spanish Civil War, and at least five guild members

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Speaker 1: just went and joined the International Brigades fighting in Spain,

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Speaker 1: and three of them died in that fight.

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Speaker 2: That is the most baller thing whenever I hear somebody's like,

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Speaker 2: I joined a war, not my nation, not my people,

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Speaker 2: but just because I had the instinctual human reaction of

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Speaker 2: this is horrifically wrong and I'm gonna go do something

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Speaker 2: about it. It just it blows in my mind that

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Speaker 2: there are folks still to this day who do that.

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Speaker 1: Totally.

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Speaker 2: That's wild. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I did recent episode about three folks who died in Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: One was a Russian who was like, well hell with Russia, wow,

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Speaker 1: One was Irish, and one was a guy from Cleveland,

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Speaker 1: fucking bother man. And so at this first convention, there's

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Speaker 1: senators and representatives, there's a state Supreme Court justice, and

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Speaker 1: right away they start writing legal opinions that influence lawmakers.

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Speaker 1: And this is Actually, one of the things that they

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Speaker 1: do right out of the gate is they start writing

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Speaker 1: legal opinions. They're like, hey, actually, what if we interpreted

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Speaker 1: the laws of the following way, doesn't that make more sense?

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Speaker 1: Isn't that more just? And start giving those out. They

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Speaker 1: basically print up pamphlets and give them to lawmakers. FDR

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Speaker 1: himself wrote a letter of support for the first convention,

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Speaker 1: and in the first few years it exploded in popularity.

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Speaker 1: By nineteen thirty nine there was more than four thousand members.

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Speaker 1: In twenty nine, chapters Chicago and Philly started opening community

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Speaker 1: law offices, and I want to know.

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Speaker 2: More about these.

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Speaker 1: I don't know a ton. I believe this is a

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Speaker 1: place where anyone could go in and get legal information.

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Speaker 2: Wow, which is like we need that now absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess we have like public defenders, but.

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Speaker 2: Like public defenders are so stretched thin, like additional time

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Speaker 2: to help folks not currently in the process of legal action,

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Speaker 2: like there's no way, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent, that

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Speaker 2: would be amazing, just even you know, for stuff like

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Speaker 2: I work in the entertainment industry and a lot of

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Speaker 2: influencers have no education on like what their rights are

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Speaker 2: as a worker and so it spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time trying to steer them towards inexpensive or fresh out

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Speaker 2: of college lawyers who can just give like basic advice

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Speaker 2: so that they can protect themselves. It's hard, it's really

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Speaker 2: hard to find reliable folks, make sure the information they're

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Speaker 2: getting is good. You know, you want to find ways

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Speaker 2: to compensate these people's times because not all lawyers are stupid,

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Speaker 2: rich and comfortable, you know, especially ones doing things like this.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, it's really a challenge.

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Speaker 1: No, totally. And like I think about, like I've always

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Speaker 1: been really lucky in that because I've come up from activism.

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Speaker 1: I know a ton of lawyers, but they're not intellectual

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Speaker 1: property lawyers. You know, they're like if I got arrested,

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Speaker 1: I know the right lawyers, which is great because that's

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Speaker 1: a bigger deal than like intellectual property stuff in terms

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Speaker 1: of impacting my life. But like it's still it's hard. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's hard to get but you.

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Speaker 2: Still might let to know some of yeah those things

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Speaker 2: at some point exactly, yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: And so things are going really well for the Energy

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Speaker 1: for a year and then they run into a snag.

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Speaker 1: And by a snag, I mean a thing that derails

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Speaker 1: the entire US for years. In nineteen thirty eight, Congress

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Speaker 1: set up the DIES Committee, which soon enough became the

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Speaker 1: House Committee on on American Activities. Yeah, the analgy wasn't

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Speaker 1: excited about this, and so they worked very hard and unsuccessfully,

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Speaker 1: although I mean, I guess they did outlive it, so

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Speaker 1: actually I guess they were successful in the end to

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Speaker 1: try and get it shut down. But when I said that,

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Speaker 1: there was radicals, progressives, and liberals, and one of them

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Speaker 1: was going to sell out the others, here we go.

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Speaker 1: It was the liberals. I think everyone saw that coming.

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Speaker 2: You know, big l for a reason, Jesus, especially at

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Speaker 2: this moment, at this moment, my god, mind blowing, the

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Speaker 2: amount of fear of just we'll call you one American. Yeah, okay, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he'll go to jail for a few years. Okay. Like

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Speaker 2: the consequences socially were really impactful, but what they were

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Speaker 2: threatening was so like it's wild. And when you learn

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Speaker 2: about the folks that stood up to that shit, you know,

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Speaker 2: like if you've seen good Night and good Luck, which

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Speaker 2: is both a movie and a stage play that I

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Speaker 2: really enjoyed watching, they talk about a soldier who they

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Speaker 2: were like Hey, you subscribe to a communist magazine. You

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Speaker 2: need to like quit the army. He was like, fuck you.

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Speaker 2: It's a magazine that I read like once and doesn't

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Speaker 2: say anything about me as a person, like back off.

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Speaker 2: And he had to fight for years and years and years,

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Speaker 2: but he won because it's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's cool. I'm glad that people fight that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Like I think about like, I have a lot of

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Speaker 1: books in my house. I like to pretend it's because

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Speaker 1: my job, but it really is because I like having

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Speaker 1: a lot of books in my house.

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Speaker 2: It makes me feel like me felt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I have it's like overflow books in the

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Speaker 1: guest room, and I labeled one of the shelves bad

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Speaker 1: because it's the books that I know are bad. And

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Speaker 1: I don't want people to come in and be like

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Speaker 1: why do you have this weird conspiracy stuff or like

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Speaker 1: you know, or like why do you have like fascist books?

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, because I research history and I care

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Speaker 1: about this stuff, but I have to have it labeled, right,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: I just want you to know that I don't rely

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Speaker 2: on this or think the same knowledgeable source of information

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Speaker 2: beyond this is a direct quote space, Okay, I just

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Speaker 2: need to have the initial, like original text, so I

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Speaker 2: can be informed when i'm speaking out against it. Yes, yeah,

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Speaker 2: hundred appreciate. I love that. I shouldn't get a shovel.

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Speaker 2: Two shelves, one shelf, label bad, I'm labeled embarrassing where

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I have this book and I like it,

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Speaker 2: you have to deal with it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, But like unicorn writer romance stuff, that's exactly.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, this is the romanticy shelf, and there it is.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry it exists.

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Speaker 1: But yes, that's fine. And it's funny because the people

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Speaker 1: who I'm when I complain about the liberals selling people out,

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Speaker 1: I'm actually not going to complain about the people who

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Speaker 1: quit in fear, which is the majority of the Nalgy.

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Speaker 2: We'll get to that.

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Speaker 1: Most people quit the nalg in fear, but some people

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Speaker 1: sold them out. You have an early prominent member of

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Speaker 1: the Nalgy, a guy named Morris Ernst. He's from the ACLU.

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Speaker 1: He'd done a ton of good shit over his career.

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Speaker 1: He had fought for free speech, he got books on

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Speaker 1: band but he's about as anti communist as it gets.

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Speaker 1: And it seems like pretty much right away before the

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Speaker 1: Red scare really even gets going, he starts colluding with

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Speaker 1: the FBI.

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Speaker 2: No, that's the worst thing you can do, agreed.

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Speaker 1: And so he starts giving the director, Herbert Hoover, information

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Speaker 1: about NLG members he suspects of communist ties.

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Speaker 2: Okay, business got it for somebody who worked for both

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Speaker 2: the ACLU and this amazing organization that was all about

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Speaker 2: freedom and like making sure people's rights were like understood

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Speaker 2: and accessible to immediately just be like, but these people

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Speaker 2: over here are dastardly evil, and so you must take

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Speaker 2: them out big government. Yeah. Is mind blowing.

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Speaker 1: And part of it is I think that he's trying

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Speaker 1: to kind of control the direction the Nalgy goes. He

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Speaker 1: wants it to be his organization.

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Speaker 2: You can't do that. You're in community, buddy, I know

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Speaker 2: how it works. Come on.

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Speaker 1: Ernst AND's followers wanted the Energy to take a strong

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Speaker 1: anti communist line like the ACO you had, and they

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Speaker 1: wanted to kick out anyone suspected of communism, and they

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Speaker 1: wanted new members to take an anti communist oath. But

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Speaker 1: throughout the entire Red Scare, the Energy is like, we

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Speaker 1: do have an oath. You have to swear an oath

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Speaker 1: to uphold the US Constitution in law. That's enough. Like,

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Speaker 1: you don't have to swear an anti communist oath.

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Speaker 2: That seems excessive.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah.

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Speaker 2: Also, if you want to have communists believes us here

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Speaker 2: right as a human being totally, you get to do that.

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Speaker 1: Yep. And people didn't go for it. This is like

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Speaker 1: the big thing that separates the Energy from other groups.

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Speaker 1: They didn't cave, and they took their lumps and they

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Speaker 1: stayed on course. Meanwhile, meanwhile, Ernst is also trying to

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Speaker 1: get the Energy to stop supporting Republican Spain, tries to

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Speaker 1: get them to stop supporting radical labor unions, and tries

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Speaker 1: to get them to stop critiquing Hoover and the FBI

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Speaker 1: and the Red Scare.

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Speaker 2: Ew gross bootlegger.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The worst and what didn't help the internal tensions is

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Speaker 1: when there's this complicated thing when you talk about the

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Speaker 1: Red Scare, where you're like, is someone a commune the

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Speaker 1: capital c in that matters at this time and place,

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Speaker 1: because if you're a part of the Communist Party during

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Speaker 1: this period, you are part of an organization that does

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Speaker 1: take orders from Stalin, Whereas if you believe in communism

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Speaker 1: and socialism, you actually might hate Stalin. Yes, when the

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Speaker 1: USSR in nineteen thirty nine sided with Nazi Germany, so

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party of the US stopped being anti fascist

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Speaker 1: for a couple of years. And so we talked about

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Speaker 1: this in some of the Hollywood episodes that we've done

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Speaker 1: about anti fascism in Hollywood, where this complicated thing where

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Speaker 1: people who are like their thing is anti fascism are like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're anti fascists. But for a little while, the Communist

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Speaker 1: Party was like, nah, the Nazis are Okay.

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Speaker 2: It got weird for a second. Yeah, there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of money on the table. Yeah, and it made

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Speaker 2: people make some poor choices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And a lot of people after that were like, ooh,

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Speaker 1: we were on the wrong side on that one, you know,

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Speaker 1: and people left over it. And so there's tension in

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Speaker 1: the ENLG, even from the left in this part because

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Speaker 1: they're like, no, wait, the whole thing is we're anti fascist, right.

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Speaker 1: The ENLG never went it just straight up wasn't a

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Speaker 1: communist organization. But we'll talk about that.

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Speaker 2: In a second.

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Speaker 1: And it comes to a head in nineteen forty because

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Speaker 1: the NLG the lawyers defended a bunch of union folks

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Speaker 1: and veterans of the Spanish Civil War, I want to say,

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Speaker 1: in Detroit, because they were accused of violating the Neutrality

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Speaker 1: Act by supporting Republican in Spain. So during the trial,

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Speaker 1: NLG lawyers talked loudly and publicly about how the FBI

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Speaker 1: was doing fucked up shit, and so Hoover they've now

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Speaker 1: picked on Hoover. So Hoover is like, I'm coming for you.

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Speaker 2: Here come the bugs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, here come the bugs. Here come the burglaries, Here

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Speaker 1: come the infiltrators.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: Within six months of that, he orders a burglary of

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Speaker 1: their office. Later during the I want to say eighties,

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Speaker 1: they're going to get four hundred thousand pages of documents

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Speaker 1: of public record of the FBI's file on the Nalgy.

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, that's so many pages.

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Speaker 2: That's a lot of face. It's multiple books worth of faith.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Jesus, that is like four hundred Lord of the Rings, Wow,

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Speaker 1: and the entire series, not the first book. So at

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Speaker 1: this point, Ernst and the liberal contingent of the ENLGY quit,

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Speaker 1: which is good, frankly, Yeah the fuck, we don't need them.

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Speaker 1: Many others resigned in fear, including most of the founders,

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Speaker 1: as best as I can tell, by nineteen forty, the

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Speaker 1: convention represented only about one thousand lawyers, that's like three quarters,

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Speaker 1: and were gone, wow, yeah. And at the nineteen forty convention,

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Speaker 1: a bunch of the people who had left, some of

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Speaker 1: the big name of liberals, were like, look, if you

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Speaker 1: kick out the following communists, we'll come back. And the

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Speaker 1: energy was like, it says right in our thing, we

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Speaker 1: don't kick people out based on their political ideology. They

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Speaker 1: also wouldn't have been kicked out for being liberals.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you could come back regardless, but you

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Speaker 2: don't get to stipulate this makes sense to it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that saved the NLG, which left them

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Speaker 1: able to lay the groundwork for like they're going to

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Speaker 1: lay the groundwork for like most of the welfare systems

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Speaker 1: that we have in the United States, as far as

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Speaker 1: I can tell, wow, okay, is the solidarity between the

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Speaker 1: progressives and the radicals. Between the lawyers who really were

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Speaker 1: various types of socialists. Whether some of them were in

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Speaker 1: the Communist Party, I think most of them weren't, maybe

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Speaker 1: a lot of them were. I'm not trying to just

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Speaker 1: paint with a Gilded Brush and the lawyers who believed

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Speaker 1: in the American system and wanted it to actually respect

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Speaker 1: the rule of law and equal protection under the law

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Speaker 1: and free speech and all that shit. Because in nineteen

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Speaker 1: forty the guy who became the president of the Guild

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Speaker 1: was a man named Robert W. Kenny, who I want

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Speaker 1: to call Bob Kenny. Actually people do call him Bob Kenny,

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Speaker 1: but Bobby Kenny, of course would be funnier. I just

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Speaker 1: want them to have cue nick names, partly because it's

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Speaker 1: like story with so many men in it, so I

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Speaker 1: just like want them to have cute nicknames. It just

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Speaker 1: makes it.

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Speaker 2: I love it too, It makes them stand out personality,

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Speaker 2: like Bobby Kenny.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, so Bobby Kenny. He was the Attorney General

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Speaker 1: of California, He was a candidate for governor, and he

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Speaker 1: was a California Supreme Court judge. He was not a Marxist,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't sound like it. He risked his entire career

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Speaker 1: by sticking to the Guild.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And he wasn't a Marxist, but he understood that a

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Speaker 1: society that denied socialists and communist rights is not a

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Speaker 1: free society. Indeed, and he also had the best, like

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Speaker 1: one liner in the whole ass script I'm ready, which

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you after the ads and we're back, Okay,

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Speaker 1: The one liner Bobby Kenny wrote about the people who left.

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Speaker 1: They founded us in nineteen thirty seven and they dumbfounded

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Speaker 1: us in nineteen thirty nine.

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Speaker 2: Bobby Kendy, Oh man, that guy sounds like he was

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Speaker 2: good to have a drink with. I know, see why

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Speaker 2: you got so many elected chairs. Amazing, Yeah, totally. And

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Speaker 2: then to bring back Marty Popper, who was the one

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Speaker 2: white guy. Yeah, oh, we remember Marty.

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Speaker 1: He is like I think he stays with the energy.

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Speaker 1: I think he died in the eighties, but I am

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Speaker 1: not one hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: Certain Marty was a real one.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a ton of the stuff that I'm even referencing.

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Speaker 1: He wrote about this time and energy history. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: quote him quote. A core remained whose sense of history

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Speaker 1: enabled them to withstand the repression, confident that the time

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Speaker 1: would come when the principles they espoused would inspire a

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Speaker 1: new generation to take up and advance their cause. And

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Speaker 1: that is what happened. In the process. We provided in

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Speaker 1: an example to the entire progressive movement. The latter point

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Speaker 1: I'm still quoting deserves further elaboration. Large segments of the

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Speaker 1: progressive movement, abandoning principle, engaged in a frenzy of self distrust,

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Speaker 1: of red baiting. Leaders of important organizations became the architects

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Speaker 1: of division and dissolution, and in the process they not

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Speaker 1: only weakened their own organizations, but undermined the vitality of

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Speaker 1: the entire movement. It is in this larger context that

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Speaker 1: the lessons of our history can be best appreciated. Since

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Speaker 1: we survived because of our adherence to principles and are

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Speaker 1: stronger now because those principles remained intact.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Marty come through.

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Speaker 1: And so he's like, look, everyone else got scared and

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Speaker 1: left and lost, and we stuck to our guns and

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Speaker 1: are still in organization, and like only a couple of

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Speaker 1: them went to jail. And yeah, he says that what

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Speaker 1: basically socialist and non socialists sticking together and having each

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Speaker 1: other's back by believing in the core principles of the

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Speaker 1: guild is what got them through the red scare.

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Speaker 2: That's really beautiful. And again, as we embrace our own

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Speaker 2: version of the red scare right now, uh huh, actively happening,

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Speaker 2: you see people being pulled off the street, people losing

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Speaker 2: their jobs for thoughts, switches nuts. Yep, it's very heartwarming

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Speaker 2: to know, like if you could just be brave and

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Speaker 2: stand your ground on your principles that you actually believe in, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's gonna get you so much further than you think.

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Speaker 2: And I think you know when you look back at

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Speaker 2: the red scar the number of people who folded and

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Speaker 2: those who didn't, even those whose careers were interrupted, which

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Speaker 2: I think, because we live in a capitalist society, it's

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Speaker 2: one of the scariest aspects of us. Like losing your

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Speaker 2: job has great impact, Like almost all of them go

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Speaker 2: on to find a way to continue to survive, and

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Speaker 2: some of them accomplish great things within their career field

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Speaker 2: despite being blacklisted. That's bananas. I just think hopefully it

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Speaker 2: inspires others to continue to be brave as they face

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Speaker 2: their own issues, Like.

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Speaker 1: I agree, and like, yeah, solidarity is like literally our strength, Like.

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Speaker 2: It's the only thing we have. Yea. It's all about

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Speaker 2: solidarity and connecting to your neighbors, which again I think

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Speaker 2: if you're the kind of person I mean, up until

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Speaker 2: three years ago, I never knew a neighbor because I

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Speaker 2: didn't have a dog, and I was since at my

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Speaker 2: house and I didn't think it mattered. I think very

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Speaker 2: differently now, and I like to encourage people when and

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Speaker 2: where I can, Like, if you don't know a neighbor,

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Speaker 2: go meet one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, say hey, know their name.

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Speaker 2: Make sure they know your name. It's gonna be necessary now,

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Speaker 2: it's necessary right now. I remember I live r eally.

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Speaker 1: I was talking to one of my neighbors once and

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Speaker 1: they didn't know that I was kind of a prepper,

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Speaker 1: and they were like, you gotta get ready. That stuff's happening,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, I agree. And then they look

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Speaker 1: at me and they're like, but you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: start eating meat and I'm like, yeah, no, totally. If

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Speaker 1: supermarkets collapse, I'm gonna shoot a deer and eat it.

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Speaker 2: I understand that, you know, or I'm prepared to survive.

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Speaker 2: But I appreciate you looking out for me. This is

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about. Yeah, exactly, in case you weren't ready,

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure you get ready. And

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Speaker 2: also some eventualities might happen. I can appreciate that totally.

436
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 2: And so then in the nineteen forties, big thing happened

437
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:21,800
Speaker 2: where the US went to war. And while the analgy

438
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,040
Speaker 2: did fight against.

439
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 1: Segregation in the military, that was a big thing that

440
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,679
Speaker 1: they were campaigning on, they earned the darkest spot on

441
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,879
Speaker 1: their record, which is that they didn't really do anything

442
00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 1: about Japanese and tournament shocking.

443
00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 2: I know, it.

444
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 1: Actually is a little bit, and it's shocking to them too,

445
00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 1: a little bit like the people who came later or

446
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 1: talk about it, more than one hundred thousand, about one

447
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty thousand ethnically Japanese people were held in

448
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 1: concentration camps during World War Two, and they did later.

449
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: They were in the fight to keep Japanese Americans from

450
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:54,080
Speaker 1: property confiscation.

451
00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 2: Okay, that's good, so that was a necessary thing.

452
00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: But like the thing I read was basically they were like,

453
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 1: this is the worst thing we did is we didn't

454
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:03,000
Speaker 1: stand up during that.

455
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,400
Speaker 2: I love an organization that can acknowledge where they fell short. Yeah,

456
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 2: I think if I was to extend any empathy to

457
00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: them on that guard, it sounds like they were just

458
00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 2: coming out of a very bleak situation where they had

459
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 2: lost most of their members. Red scares not over at

460
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,960
Speaker 2: this point, you know. There sounds like they were hanging

461
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: on by a thread. I wonder if they didn't feel

462
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 2: they had the manpower to tackle such a large issue,

463
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: because I mean.

464
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: I hope so. But honestly, my guess is that, like

465
00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: I remember, I asked my other grandfather, not my Hogo grandfather,

466
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 1: but he's very strongly in the rule of law. Before

467
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 1: he died. I asked him once. I was like, you

468
00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:46,119
Speaker 1: think he's very progressive. He was very democrat. And I

469
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 1: was like, what did you think about the Japanese tournament,

470
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,960
Speaker 1: you know? And he was like, honestly, I probably didn't

471
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 1: really think anything about it. I probably thought it was

472
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,480
Speaker 1: necessary and hadn't didn't really give it any thought. And

473
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 1: he didn't say that to be like and I right,

474
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: you know, he just answered my question. Honestly, I am

475
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: guessing cynically that is, the attitude was a little bit

476
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: of a like, oh, well, like they might be enemy soldiers,

477
00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: so we've gotta turn them, you.

478
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: Know, first terrorist attack on United States soiler.

479
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,159
Speaker 1: Right, probably by another government or.

480
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 2: Like outside yeah yeah, yah, yeah, yeah. As I can

481
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,959
Speaker 2: just remember the absolute reduction in brain cells after nine

482
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: to eleven, yeah, and the absolutely just horror and reaction

483
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,240
Speaker 2: to genuinely devastating event, and it doesn't surprise me. And

484
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: I think, what's in a struggle now is it just

485
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 2: feels like we should have a three sixty view on

486
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: these things at this point. And I feel like if

487
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: similar things were to happen tomorrows, we're looking at I

488
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,440
Speaker 2: don't know, actual concentration cans we opened up soiled people

489
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,000
Speaker 2: being like, you can't call it concentration camp, ma'am. We

490
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 2: have to call this fade of faide to look things

491
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 2: directly in the eye. So yeah, I mean we can

492
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 2: look at again, just around it, what's happening right now,

493
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 2: And see, folks have very similar reactions to be like, oh, well,

494
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 2: if they're breaking the law, what could you possibly do

495
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,360
Speaker 2: that doesn't involve me? It's not about me. Crazy Yeah,

496
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,959
Speaker 2: crazy that I thought. And we know we're all in

497
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,959
Speaker 2: this together. It's literally just us.

498
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: It's nuts, no, I know, And like the energy should

499
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: have known better, and they know absolutely better. When I'm

500
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: offering them any grace, it was like they sort of

501
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,880
Speaker 1: caught their breath and then we're like, oh, well, now

502
00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: we're going to enter and try and make sure that

503
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,880
Speaker 1: people don't lose their property, and like they came late,

504
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 1: you know, and the membership of the Energy slowly grew

505
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: during the war because the Red Scare was on a

506
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: little bit of a pause as best as I can tell.

507
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: And one of the most interesting contributions to history of

508
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 1: the Energy was that nineteen forty four they wrote down

509
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: how to prosecute the Nuremberg Trials ahead of time?

510
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 2: Oh my god, thrilling.

511
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: They sat there and were like, they wrote a report

512
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 1: that was like, all right, the war criminals, once we

513
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 1: win this shit, we're gonna win this shit. What a

514
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: defense are they going to use? What are the legal

515
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: arguments we can get ahead of time? Two years ahead

516
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: of time?

517
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 2: Yes?

518
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: And it also included advice on how to prosecute German

519
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: industrialists who profited off of like the stealing shit from

520
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 1: all of them. Yes, yes, And a ton of the

521
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,920
Speaker 1: Nuremberg lead lawyers were Energy.

522
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 2: I want to cry. That's so beautiful. I also, really

523
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: what I love about your show, Margaret, is that it

524
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: awakens a lot of folks to the ideas like, well,

525
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: what can I do? You know when you are facing

526
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,200
Speaker 2: very large problems that seem overwhelming, you know, especially if

527
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: you're not somebody who's had the privilege or opportunity to

528
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 2: be educated on like what goes down during these major moments.

529
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of people your options are signed

530
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 2: for army or protests or like run for government, which

531
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 2: are all three free options. But you could also be

532
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 2: using your legal mind to be trying to advance, or

533
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: you could just be feeding school children during this time

534
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,680
Speaker 2: where there's like a role for all of us. Yeah.

535
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,119
Speaker 2: And I just think it's so beautiful that they were like, Okay,

536
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,720
Speaker 2: it's not over yet, but I can foresee what's about

537
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,440
Speaker 2: to happen, and let's make sure we're prepared. That's awesome.

538
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, I that's such a good point that

539
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: this is, Yeah, such a good example of their like,

540
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: how do we contribute, Well, we are some of the

541
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: smartest legal minds in the West, so we should get

542
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: ready to prosecute the Nazis.

543
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: You know.

544
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: And yeah, and then the war ends and the energy

545
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: moves on to fighting the enemy. Within the United States,

546
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 1: the House Committee on American Activities. President Truman instituted a

547
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: loyalty program that demanded loyalty checks on two point five

548
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 1: million civil servants. Oooh, and the enalgy put all of

549
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: its energy into fighting it, And I like a quote

550
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,920
Speaker 1: from a MIDI report from the Energy about this time period. Quote,

551
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 1: those who resist freedom of inquiry are enemies of the people,

552
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: where they doom our land to endless cycles of economic

553
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: crisis and poverty, of war and annihilation of bigotry and

554
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: spiritual degradation.

555
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 2: Like spiritual degradation. Tell them, yeah, there is no end

556
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 2: if you decide that, you get to decide who's loyal.

557
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 2: I have the drop of a hat every day. Oh

558
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: my god, who can live under constant surveillance. It's just exhausting.

559
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the Red scare rages on the major unions

560
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: demand anti communist oaths. Energy lawyers are fired from a

561
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: bunch of unions. In nineteen forty seven, ten Hollywood folks

562
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: refuse to testify in front of the House of on

563
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: American activities. The Hollywood ten and their lawyers are Energy,

564
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: including Bobby Kenny.

565
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 2: I didn't know that. Yeah, oh my god, I love

566
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: that Hollywood ten before when I was talking about you know,

567
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: there are folks whose careers were on the line and

568
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: risk and were eventually black while it's these guys that

569
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: I was talking about, Like, I just think there's incredibly

570
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 2: brave to be like, no, fuck you, I'm not answer

571
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: your goddamn question totally. You have no right to ask

572
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 2: me in the first place. Oh so brave.

573
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: I would be so frustrated if that was me, because

574
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, famously have very negative opinions about Bolshevism, but

575
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: like I'd have to just be like, I'm not answering.

576
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,200
Speaker 1: They'd be like, are you a Bolshevik? Instead of being like, no,

577
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: I hate them too, I'd have to be like, none

578
00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: of your fucking business.

579
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 2: You don't get an answer out of me, period, no

580
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 2: matter what. Yeah. Yeah, it would be oh gosh, difficult

581
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: in every single way, but also just two years of

582
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 2: what seemed to be pretty soft time from what I've

583
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,120
Speaker 2: read about their time in prison. You know, it's not

584
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: fun you're in prison, but it's also not you know,

585
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: the backbreaking labor of like a southern prison back in

586
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 2: the thirties and forties. Gosh, yes, sorry, I've.

587
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 1: Interrupted, No, no, no, that's a Hollywood ten. I believe

588
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: that each got year in prison, and then the energy

589
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 1: represented leaders of the US Communist Party and five ENLG

590
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 1: lawyers went to prison for contempt in the course of

591
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 1: defending the communists.

592
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 2: Contempt is one of the funniest things. I would feel, like,

593
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: what a badge of honor to be there at a

594
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 2: court for You're like, yeah, you're kept in this court, Like, yes, actually,

595
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: i do have contempt for this court. Please.

596
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm fine with it being on my record. Whatever,

597
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,239
Speaker 1: y'all are a thought crime tribunal. I'm a human, of

598
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 1: course I have contempt for you. Of In nineteen forty nine,

599
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: the League started investigating the FBI, which rules.

600
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,960
Speaker 2: Okay, that's some of the most botherers shit I've ever

601
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: heard in my life. How do you investigate the FBI?

602
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: I didn't find enough details about what this is, but

603
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: I think that they're just basically building a case against

604
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: the red scare right, and they're building a case against

605
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: what the FBI is doing.

606
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: It sounds like the people that are you may have

607
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 2: to cut this. Let me know. When we're trying to

608
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 2: docs ice agents, we're like very actively in the streets,

609
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 2: like standing outside of their house, like just trying to

610
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 2: bring morale as low as possible. I'm like, yeah, y'all,

611
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: we this is incredible to me. But you ain't even attempted,

612
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 2: but be that you're having success with it. My mind

613
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: is blown. Oh. I just love little people being like

614
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 2: you think you can do with me. I can actually

615
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: do this to you too. Yeah, this Week of the

616
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: Street runs both ways, buddy, incredible.

617
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: And that's not legal advice, but I think we should

618
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: keep it in Its just not legal advice.

619
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: This is a thing I would never tell you to

620
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 2: do anything.

621
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: Any given action is up to people to make their

622
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: own decisions.

623
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

624
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: And so clearly when you do that to three letter

625
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 1: acronym organizations that are doing terrible things like the FBI,

626
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about. It means that

627
00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: the FBI went to war against the League and they

628
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: makes them the first targets of basically co intel pro

629
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: which is what they used to disrupt the Black Panthers

630
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 1: and all these things by doing like counter information and

631
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,560
Speaker 1: infiltration and stirring up conflict. It's the first one that

632
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: I've run across the House of on American Activities put

633
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: out a report called the National Lawyer's Guild Legal Bulwark

634
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: for the Communist Party. And this is funny for a

635
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. But one is just like the Energy

636
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: wasn't a communist organization. There were communists in it. We

637
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: know that when FBI stole their membership list, which they

638
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: did several times, six point six percent of the members

639
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: had ever been affiliated with the Communist Party in any way,

640
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: which is like probably a lower percentage than like the

641
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: average film.

642
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: Set, right right, right, you know, one percent.

643
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: But this war against the enalg from the FBI led

644
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: to even more resignations. By nineteen fifty five, there were

645
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: only five hundred members left. Oh my god, down from.

646
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,080
Speaker 2: Twenty five k to one thousand to five hundred. Well,

647
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 2: but actually they spiked it the rebound after Yeah.

648
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so during the war, like in nineteen fifty they

649
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: had thirty four hundred, but then they yeah, they lost

650
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,600
Speaker 1: almost three thousand and members.

651
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: Jesus, only four.

652
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: Chapters remained New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Detroit.

653
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 1: And Detroit was the most rat of them all.

654
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course they were.

655
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, lots of people who quit, though it wasn't like

656
00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: they were like, oh, we actually hate you. They stay

657
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: subscribed to like the newsletters and shit, and they like

658
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 1: we're still practicing law, and like I think a lot

659
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: of them were just trying to do good shit and

660
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: just kind of had to like keep their head down

661
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 1: and I'm like, look, I can't blame you. I can

662
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: blame people who turn on it, right.

663
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:33,640
Speaker 2: Of course, if you're a trader, fuck you.

664
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

665
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: But if you're a person who's like I have three

666
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: children to raise and so I'm just trying to keep

667
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 2: my house together, I get that's totally fine. You have

668
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 2: to maneuver how you have to maneuver, and again sometimes

669
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 2: it's even beneficial. Again never giving advice, but I've certainly

670
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,239
Speaker 2: heard of people applying for some of these fancy new

671
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: ice jobs in order to you know, see what's going on.

672
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 2: It gets them intel, it disrupts some systems, so you know,

673
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 2: they sometimes you got to quit in order to be

674
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: able to move more freely. That's what you gotta do.

675
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so the publishers at the NALG started putting

676
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: out like tools that these radical but somewhat timid lawyers

677
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: could use, Like they were still offering like legal frameworks

678
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 1: that lawyers could use, and the NALG saved itself. They

679
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: spent three years from nineteen fifty five to nineteen fifty

680
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: eight successfully fighting. Basically what happened is the FBI was like,

681
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 1: we're going to put you on the list of subversive organizations,

682
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: and if that had happened, people would have been in

683
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: real trouble. It's like the equivalent of how not wanting

684
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: things you're attached to, to be on domestic terrorist lists

685
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:38,520
Speaker 1: or whatever.

686
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,359
Speaker 2: Right, it's not good, not good. Look.

687
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,799
Speaker 1: So for three years this is the fight where I

688
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: was like, they picked a fight with lawyers and they

689
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: didn't win. They tried to listen as a subversive organization

690
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: and nalgy lawyers fought them in court. Tooth and fucking nail.

691
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,280
Speaker 1: There you go, and one.

692
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah subversive where buddy you show me? Yeah? Amazing.

693
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: And Detroit was the most active chapter because they were

694
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,400
Speaker 1: tied into labor rights and also were the place that

695
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: the civil rights part of it gets its start.

696
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

697
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: But before I talk about civil rights, I want to

698
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: talk about goods.

699
00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 2: Answer.

700
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:15,320
Speaker 1: Actually, I don't want to talk about it. I just

701
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: want to interrupt the podcast with goods and services. That's

702
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: what gets me up in the morning.

703
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:25,320
Speaker 2: A gift, Julie, enjoy and we're back.

704
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: Okay. So the Energy saved itself by preventing itself from

705
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,320
Speaker 1: being destroyed. The five hundred who remained like soldiers and

706
00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: some lord of the ring. Shit, fucking held their shit

707
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: and drove them back. But what brought new people into

708
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: it and revitalized it was the civil rights movement. Lunch

709
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: counter sit ins needed lawyers, and the nalg lawyers were like, yeah,

710
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: let's fucking do it. They didn't actually have any Southern chapters,

711
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 1: but they had plenty of people, including at large members

712
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: in the South, and they also had Northern lawyers who

713
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: were like, well, it's a country I can move, you know.

714
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: They formed the Committee to Assist Southern Lawyers in Detroit,

715
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: and they announced that every Guild member was committed to

716
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:14,439
Speaker 1: volunteering their services in case of anything fighting segregation. Oh wow,

717
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: so they were like, all hands on deck, that's beautiful.

718
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: There was one particular type of Guild member who had

719
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: a problem with this one demographic Uh oh, FBI informants.

720
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: They like to make themselves known at very pivotal points.

721
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 2: This is like what you want to help who?

722
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: Because what happened was there became this conflict where there

723
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: was a Detroit versus New York City divide. Detroit was

724
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 1: like we're dropping everything, We're helping the South, and Detroit

725
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: was actually the biggest chapter, but New York City was

726
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: like whoa whoa, whoah, we shouldn't do that. Or rather specifically,

727
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: one guy in New York City kept giving speech is

728
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 1: about that he was an FBI informant. Came out later Mmmm,

729
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 1: he was one of more than a thousand people who

730
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: had been hired since nineteen forty. Between like nineteen forty

731
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: and like nineteen eighty, there was one thousand people not

732
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: necessarily in it. A lot of were in it, but

733
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: like hired to like hang out around them and stuff.

734
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,720
Speaker 2: That is so much money for an organization. That's basically

735
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 2: we just want to make sure the laws are doing

736
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 2: the best for the people they represent.

737
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: That's all well, like as above borders like yeah, yeah, insanity.

738
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: And once again, the Guild didn't split, like it came

739
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:38,800
Speaker 1: really close to it. Okay, this is my argument. The

740
00:37:38,800 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: fact that it didn't split over an ideological difference is

741
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 1: how I know it wasn't a communist group. And so

742
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: sixty six lawyers went to trainings in Detroit and then

743
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,360
Speaker 1: headed down to the South to help the civil rights movement,

744
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: and they fought like hell every time activists got arrested,

745
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 1: and they started to grow again. Radical students became radical

746
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: lawyers and joined by the hundreds and then the thousands,

747
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 1: and at the time students could be not direct members,

748
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 1: not voting members, but they could like join kind of

749
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: in an auxiliary way. But as they become lawyers, they're

750
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,759
Speaker 1: joining in a voting block. And by nineteen sixty eight,

751
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, the Civil rights era moves into the like

752
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: new Left era where you start getting the Panthers and

753
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: you start getting the Yippies, and the thing that is

754
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: the first year of the show is basically just this.

755
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty eight, the ENLG basically agreed that they

756
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: were the legal arm of the movement. And this is

757
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,399
Speaker 1: a big distinction because before they were like lawyers who

758
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 1: support the movement, and now they're like, no, we're in

759
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: the movement. This is of us as well. And all

760
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 1: throughout the sixties shit with the New Left and Black

761
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 1: power and anti war, the ENLG was there representing thousands

762
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: and thousands of arrestees. And it's at this point that

763
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: they developed the tactic that is the whole reason I'm

764
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: talking about them today wearing hats to say legal observer. Yes,

765
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 1: they started putting legal workers, lawyers and otherwise into parades

766
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 1: and marches to observe what the police are doing take

767
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 1: notes and use to later help people in.

768
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: Court vital because the police do what lie?

769
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, totally, I like genuinely struggle with how a

770
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 1: judge can seriously take a police officer as a witness.

771
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,799
Speaker 2: I just like I can't at this point. I feel

772
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: like it's ingrained in the inherent nature of the workflow. Right.

773
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,480
Speaker 2: So if you think about how much you know your

774
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: eighties working with cops, and then cops are reporting to judges,

775
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: be simple, they seen like they are familiar faces to

776
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:51,799
Speaker 2: each other, and their uniform is such a way to

777
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: pass over these things. But it is I think to

778
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:57,400
Speaker 2: your point, markret when you're like a thinking, intelligent human

779
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,280
Speaker 2: being and we've seen the amount of life eyes, deceptions,

780
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: theft that police in the same way that I still

781
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 2: find it hard to understand how anyone could be like

782
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: this can be reformed. I'm like, what are we talking

783
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: totally about. I don't understand how you can think that

784
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,359
Speaker 2: the whole point, they don't have to know the law

785
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 2: or protect you. That's what the court said, So what

786
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:23,879
Speaker 2: are they doing here? Because oh my god, exhausting.

787
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: And so the legal observers are there to counteract the

788
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: lies that are going to be told, and they would

789
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: show up to jails and courthouses the moment there's a

790
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,200
Speaker 1: whiff of an arrest happening. And as I was saying

791
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 1: at the top of it, all ENLG actually owns registered

792
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: trademarks for the word legal observer and they have an

793
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: official certification program. So if you see someone in a

794
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,399
Speaker 1: lime green hat, this is legal observer on it. They've

795
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 1: probably been trained according to the trademark registration which I

796
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: looked up, and randomly tells me about what they're doing.

797
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: And I found that interesting. The certification marks used by

798
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 1: person authorized by the certifiers certifies that the services provided

799
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 1: have been performed by an individual has completed a certifiers

800
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 1: educational training and testing for providing observation services in the

801
00:41:09,760 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 1: nature of taking notes, photographs, video, and or audio recording

802
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,600
Speaker 1: of the conduct of law enforcement and or private security

803
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: at public events for potential use in court at police

804
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: conduct review hearings or other public hearings. That's what legal

805
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,879
Speaker 1: observers do in legal ease.

806
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 2: We love them for it. Thank you so much for

807
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: being because I think if there's anybody who can sort

808
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 2: of outdo a cop in a court case, it's a

809
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 2: legal observer like this is the great equalizer for the people,

810
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: you know, other than camera footage, and even then sometimes

811
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: that can be difficult to get admitted depending on circumstances.

812
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,720
Speaker 2: But if you have a legal observer, hopefully they're aware

813
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 2: of the laws that are doing it correctly so that

814
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: it could be used properly. So that's it's wow, lovely.

815
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: Human yes, absolutely, and risking arrest and injury themselves. And

816
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,600
Speaker 1: like m hm, the police often target anyone that's like

817
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 1: a mark medic or a legal observer or like we.

818
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: Have seen many get hit here in LA during the

819
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,399
Speaker 2: last round of protests after the No Kings protests. Yeah,

820
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 2: watched the reporter get shot right in the face.

821
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 1: Crazy And so realistically, I can't come up with a

822
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: way in which the New Left or modern protest movements

823
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 1: would have been able to do half of what they

824
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: did if there wasn't an organized group of lawyers ready

825
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: and willing to help people out. Also, during their anti

826
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 1: war stuff, they set up law offices in like several

827
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: countries where US soldiers were stationed in order to offer

828
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: you at like in Japan and stuff like that, to

829
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,080
Speaker 1: offer services to US soldiers who are opposed to the war,

830
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: and they would represent prison rebels, like after the Attic uprising,

831
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: they went in and represented all of those people.

832
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

833
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:52,160
Speaker 1: And the next split that they almost had but again survived,

834
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: this one was internal and a little bit more honest.

835
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: I don't think it was totally cointel pro or anything.

836
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: There was a generational divide between the old lawyers who'd

837
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 1: weathered the Red Scare and the younger new left lawyers,

838
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: and the generational difference was huge. Younger members wanted to

839
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: be part of the movement. Older members wanted to be

840
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: lawyers who support the movement. As for that middle generation,

841
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: they don't exist because of the Red Scare. Ah, there's

842
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: like literally this chunk where there's like all the old

843
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: heads just holding on until all of a sudden all

844
00:43:24,920 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: of these students become lawyers in join. But they weathered

845
00:43:29,320 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 1: the generational divide as well. They are so good at

846
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: weathering storms. The way that they did it in the

847
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: end could be summed up by this nineteen sixty eight

848
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 1: internal report quote. We had to de emphasize tradition, not

849
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 1: scrap it. We had to jostle the guild and try

850
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: not to break it. We had to convince people of

851
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: the necessity of change and prepare them for the slowness

852
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:53,759
Speaker 1: of it.

853
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: That is such a good model for anyone going forward.

854
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,239
Speaker 2: I think the idea of like because I think that

855
00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: the nature of youth is to book tradition, and when

856
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,239
Speaker 2: you stringently hold tight to it, they can often not

857
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:11,360
Speaker 2: see a space for them to craft their own way forward.

858
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: And so to hold on to the reason for the

859
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 2: tradition as opposed to the tradition itself, to be like, Hey,

860
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 2: this is a long battle and this is how we

861
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 2: previously weathered the storm. Do how you do, but the

862
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: storm is still going to need to be weathered, Like

863
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: it just allows the tools to be there, but the

864
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: freedom to evolve and yeah, flexibility and that rigidity, guys,

865
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 2: that's how we're going to make it. I love that.

866
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 1: The dumb lord of the Ring style sounding quote that

867
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 1: I use a lot is the brittle sword has no

868
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: use in battle.

869
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: A maybe I story chip and bray.

870
00:44:45,200 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the big conflict, a lot of it was

871
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 1: around younger lawyers wanted to fight against elitism, and part

872
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: of that was like literally fighting against the idea that

873
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: lawyers were like above other people, right, and so they

874
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: were a big proponent of like, actually, these are skills

875
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 1: that we should generalize more. People should have more of

876
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: a legal understanding, we should do more trainings to help people.

877
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: We should support jail house lawyers was a big part

878
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: of it, Like, in any given jail, there's going to

879
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 1: be jail house lawyers who are probably not actual lawyers

880
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: that gets scare quotes, but are instead people who study

881
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: the law to help other prisoners.

882
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: Right. And this is like the Church of England being like, no,

883
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 2: everybody should be able to read the Bible your own decisions.

884
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 2: I love being like, you know what if the people

885
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:34,360
Speaker 2: had the power and the knowledge before they got to us,

886
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:36,799
Speaker 2: and then we could just like really elevate them when

887
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,280
Speaker 2: they get to right, And it's like there's.

888
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 1: Still a role for a lawyer in the same way

889
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 1: that like, I think everyone should take stop the bleed

890
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: classes so that they can respond to traumatic wounds in

891
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: the car accident or a gunfire at a protest. But

892
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,319
Speaker 1: you probably don't need to learn how to perform higher

893
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 1: level of care unless you want to. Yeah, And I

894
00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: really appreciate the legal trainings that I've been to that

895
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 1: were probably put on by analgy just as a protester

896
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 1: and it's because of this split, and so in nineteen

897
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: seventy they agreed to admit students. Because what happened was

898
00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty eight all of these like students joined

899
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: as auxiliary members. But then they graduated, became lawyers and joined,

900
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,400
Speaker 1: and they remembered where they came from, and so they

901
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: were like, no, students should be full voting members. And

902
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: by the time that students are full voting members, the

903
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: old guards like fucked electorally right, And so nineteen seventy

904
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: one they added legal workers like paraleguals, paralegals and jailhouse

905
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: lawyers to be full members as well. Who can vote?

906
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 2: I love it.

907
00:46:38,120 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then there's this thing where a lot of

908
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 1: the founding members left. I was reading one person talking

909
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: about being like the thunderous applause when the vote passed,

910
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: felt like people telling us they hate us and whatever, right,

911
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: And so a lot of founding members left and then

912
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: because they were like, all the group has lost its way.

913
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: By nineteen seventy seven or so, both sides of the

914
00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:06,000
Speaker 1: debate got over themselves, and so the founding members came

915
00:47:06,040 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 1: back and the younger people were like, welcome, back, we

916
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,319
Speaker 1: love you, you did so much work for us.

917
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, community, is this a fucking heart worman? That

918
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 2: is so lovely? Because the thing is I understood like

919
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:24,120
Speaker 2: dramatic change can often feel like oh. And I think,

920
00:47:24,320 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 2: especially back then, we have a much better understanding of

921
00:47:27,320 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 2: like what it means to retire and to leave a

922
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 2: career as opposed to then. You know, I think agism

923
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 2: was such a strong factor of like your old man

924
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 2: get out, you know, particularly if we're looking at the

925
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: sixties and seventies and the rise of youth culture. I

926
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 2: could totally understand why culturally these guys might have been

927
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: like I'm not significant or needed here, yeah, or wanted

928
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,760
Speaker 2: here anymore. But hear that like their work was honored

929
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: and they were welcomed back warmly. Like that's so lovely,

930
00:47:55,239 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 2: I know.

931
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 1: And I might be reading like Rosie Tinted Glasses version

932
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: of it, but I read it and leave it and

933
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: I want it to be true. And I didn't read a.

934
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 2: Counter argument choo to believe today.

935
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 1: And a ton of people did rejoin, so clearly that happened,

936
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: you know. And then there's like a thing that if

937
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 1: you read anti energy stuff. But this is also probably true.

938
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: Is that like, lawyers make a middle class salary by

939
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,760
Speaker 1: and large. Right. It's funny because when I was like younger,

940
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,800
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, doctors and lawyers, those are rich people.

941
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: Actually rich people. Is when you make money with money,

942
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: not by work. If you make money with work, you're

943
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:27,840
Speaker 1: in the working class. If you make money by having money,

944
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: you're in the owning class.

945
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 2: That's true.

946
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 1: But lawyers it pays better than yeah, like or a

947
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:41,359
Speaker 1: community organizer or like whatever, and so a ton of

948
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: the like people like like the weather undergrounds money. Like

949
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 1: some people who went around and bomb shit in the

950
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 1: late sixties, it came from radical lawyers. They were just like,

951
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: all right, here's your money for your bombs. I don't

952
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: know whether they knew it was for bombs or not.

953
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: I am not making any.

954
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: Never can doone funding the bombing of anything.

955
00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

956
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: I just really love the idea of radical lawyers because

957
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,600
Speaker 2: they play into this idea of I'm using air quotes, civilly,

958
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 2: engaging right discord while also doing the very cool radical stuff.

959
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 2: And again, Margaret, from your show, I have learned so much.

960
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: You need both. Yeah, you eat people who can do

961
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 2: both in order to see active change.

962
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: Yep.

963
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: So we love a facilitator. Thanks lawyers.

964
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so they've just like kept doing stuff. The

965
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,800
Speaker 1: main history I worked from, like my main sources, a

966
00:49:32,800 --> 00:49:34,640
Speaker 1: bunch of sources in the show notes, but there's like

967
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: one longer one that I worked from was a history

968
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: that they put together for their fiftieth anniversary in nineteen

969
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: eighty seven. But they're nearly ninety years old now and

970
00:49:43,520 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: they have continued to just basically be everywhere helping everyone.

971
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: In the meantime. They helped during the AIDS crisis and

972
00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: had like working groups working on legal ship for that.

973
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 1: They have done all sorts of work on international issues.

974
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: They helped like when places actually become democracies, they helped

975
00:49:58,640 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 1: show up and write constitution.

976
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 2: Wow.

977
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 1: They defended the ultra globalization protesters, And when I was

978
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: arrested during that, it was energy lawyers who were putting

979
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,399
Speaker 1: pressure on the city to get us to release us

980
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: like me and my seven hundred best friends were arrested

981
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:16,040
Speaker 1: and spent the night in jail.

982
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 2: You know.

983
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 1: They fought against the Patriot Act. They supported the Occupy

984
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: movement against repression. They are there whenever people are facing repression.

985
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:28,760
Speaker 1: During the movement for Black Lives, they are constantly getting attacked. Currently,

986
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 1: the Republican Party is accusing them of being anti Semitic

987
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: because they support the Palestine people against genocide, even though

988
00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 1: this is like one of the most Jewish started organizations

989
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: I've ever read about.

990
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: Apparently that no longer matters.

991
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally, and they defend activists. They also developed legislative ideas.

992
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 1: They build legal arguments. They built the legal arguments for

993
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: things like social security, disability, unemployment, veterans' rights, just like

994
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: any of the welfare that they're currently taking away from

995
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: us was built by a lot of people, but a

996
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: lot of the legal arguments came from energy lawyers. And

997
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:07,480
Speaker 1: most of what they fought for in nineteen forty they

998
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: were fighting for Puerto Rican independence, right, Wow, Like that's

999
00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: how early on the ground they were about that shit,

1000
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: Because they had only been around for a couple of

1001
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: years at that point. Most of what they fought for

1002
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: they've lost. But this is not the mark of a

1003
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: losing organization, but instead a principled one. They stand for

1004
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,720
Speaker 1: all kinds of causes well before any of those causes

1005
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: have any popularity. And during the seventy fifth anniversary, the

1006
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:36,360
Speaker 1: executive director, Heidi Bokozian wrote, quote, the Guild's history is

1007
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: remarkable because we have taken part in every major progressive

1008
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 1: political movement of the past three quarters of a century.

1009
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: And they are the only group I've ever run across

1010
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 1: that can say that.

1011
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: It's kind of blowing my mind that I was not

1012
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: more aware of them. I've seen the Neon Hatsonia protest.

1013
00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 2: I knew before I go, I hear what legal observer was.

1014
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 2: Didn't know somebody to the copyright. I know?

1015
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: Is that funny?

1016
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 2: It's immaculate because it absolutely says it's pre building in

1017
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 2: a way to protect these people and the idea of

1018
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 2: what they're doing, and that yeah, sort of gets the

1019
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: ideal of like what it is they do as a whole.

1020
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 2: And so it's just kind of like this perfect thing

1021
00:52:18,239 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 2: to hold up and be like, they've got you and

1022
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 2: to your points we've been talking about them, they've got themselves,

1023
00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: Like this is an organization that can endure. And I think,

1024
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 2: you know, especially in America, we're a very young country,

1025
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,720
Speaker 2: even though it may not always feel like it. Knowing

1026
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 2: that there are institutions organizations like this that exist and

1027
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:42,760
Speaker 2: have continued to endoor through extremely difficult times. Especially right now.

1028
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 2: It's comforting. Yeah, it's really comforting to know that there

1029
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:51,279
Speaker 2: are folks out there fighting like this regularly in community,

1030
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 2: with law at the forefront of their decision making. Like,

1031
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 2: it's genuinely thrilling to.

1032
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: Know there's so much more freedom that an activist has

1033
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: knowing that, like the Energy isn't going to guarantee that

1034
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: you don't go to jail if you break the loan, no,

1035
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: or even that if you don't break the loan that

1036
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: you won't be you know, but knowing that there's someone

1037
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:16,400
Speaker 1: who will fight for you allows everything else to happen.

1038
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: And it's interesting because if people read through the sources,

1039
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: I added to the top of the sources a thing

1040
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: that I didn't quote at all, and it's a speech

1041
00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 1: by an energy lawyer and a friend of the pod

1042
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: named Moe Meltzer Cohen. And if you're listening, well, Mo,

1043
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: if you're listening, you're wonderful, thank you. But if you're

1044
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: a radical lawyer and you're listening, I think you might

1045
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,280
Speaker 1: like this speech. And it just didn't quite apply outside

1046
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 1: of like lawyer stuff, but it frames the work of

1047
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: the Energy basically being like, hey, we need to remember

1048
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: that we're humble. We are the support other people are

1049
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:50,319
Speaker 1: the things that make it happen. We can't get too

1050
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:52,799
Speaker 1: full of ourselves about like us being the important ones.

1051
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: And it's in the context of queer rights in the

1052
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: fiftieth anniversary of Stonewall, Ah. But the thing about that

1053
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: is I can see how within maybe the lawyer community,

1054
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: maybe they're a little like we're so great, right, But

1055
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: I actually think their work is a little bit invisibilized

1056
00:54:09,880 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: within the activist community totally.

1057
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 2: Is So I just want to.

1058
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 1: Say, like, maybe more directly than I usually doing these

1059
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: kind of things, thank you National Lawyers Guild for having

1060
00:54:18,239 --> 00:54:22,000
Speaker 1: our backs, you know, and yeah, you whoever you're listening,

1061
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 1: the ANALG has your back. There's like a Federal repression

1062
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,400
Speaker 1: hotline that they run where if the Feds show up

1063
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 1: at your door, you can call it. And that actually

1064
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: includes like right wing people who are getting If the

1065
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: atf knocks in your door about guns, that's federal repression

1066
00:54:37,520 --> 00:54:40,879
Speaker 1: and you can call that hotline. And knowing that there

1067
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,680
Speaker 1: is like a hotline you can call if the Fed's

1068
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 1: knock at your door and ask who you know, is

1069
00:54:46,239 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: just necessary infrastructure, especially going forward.

1070
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. It's an absolute gift. And I

1071
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 2: also think again, so many people feel like a lot

1072
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:01,680
Speaker 2: of despair and hopelessness, which is entire understandable. But I

1073
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: think when you can put into perspective the amount of

1074
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,960
Speaker 2: effort and fight that has already gone into building these protections,

1075
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 2: you can start to better understand, like what your position

1076
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 2: in the fight is going forward. I think like, oh,

1077
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 2: it's all rescinding. I'm like, watch the courts, for the

1078
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 2: love of God, there are actively judges and lawyers fighting

1079
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,320
Speaker 2: for you. Watch the courts, like your local courts, guys,

1080
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: like really see what's going on, so you can understand,

1081
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 2: like you can be realistic and optimistic. By doing that,

1082
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: you can understand what rights are being threatened and or

1083
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 2: have already been taken away. And you can also see

1084
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,720
Speaker 2: where the wins are, and there are really good wins

1085
00:55:38,760 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 2: happening right now.

1086
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 1: Totally. I think things would be a lot worse right

1087
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 1: now if it weren't for not even activist judges and

1088
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: lawyers literally just non fascist lawyers and judges, just.

1089
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 2: The ones showing up to do their job in good faith. Yeah,

1090
00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:55,400
Speaker 2: those guys, we love them.

1091
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:58,160
Speaker 1: Like you don't even have to be TLG level of

1092
00:55:58,360 --> 00:56:02,920
Speaker 1: progressive or whatever. Just don't be a fascist. And we

1093
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: haven't won.

1094
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:07,120
Speaker 2: Yet, not even close. So much fight.

1095
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 1: Left, but it would be so much worse if it

1096
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 1: weren't for so many people fighting, both on the streets

1097
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: and in the courts. Yeah, well, thanks for listening to

1098
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 1: talk about the NALG.

1099
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,360
Speaker 2: Thank you for teaching me. I learned so much and

1100
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 2: I feel very comforted and warm and gooey. And I'm

1101
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:28,880
Speaker 2: gonna go add the hotline to my emergency phone numbers

1102
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:30,680
Speaker 2: that are in my phone now you can't. Oh yeah,

1103
00:56:30,760 --> 00:56:32,120
Speaker 2: catastrophe happens.

1104
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: That's a good idea. You got anything you want to

1105
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: plug here at.

1106
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:36,719
Speaker 2: The end, the same as earlier in the week, check

1107
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 2: out xday Vision. Guys. I've never had more fun making

1108
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,280
Speaker 2: a show, and our listeners tell us that's really tangible.

1109
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 2: So if you need a good laugh and a little

1110
00:56:45,280 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 2: bit of escapism again with some consciousness. We don't talk

1111
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 2: about translaters, you know, it's not that kind of fandom.

1112
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 2: We we really try to make sure that people we

1113
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 2: talk to and cover are good human beings to the

1114
00:56:57,320 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 2: best of our ability. So that's what you're about. Come,

1115
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:03,479
Speaker 2: here's about this great summer of movies and dinner TV

1116
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,000
Speaker 2: shows coming out really excited for Alien Earth and foundations.

1117
00:57:07,040 --> 00:57:08,840
Speaker 2: So I come chat with us.

1118
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:11,960
Speaker 1: Hell, yeah, what do I want to plug? I work

1119
00:57:12,000 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: with a publishing collective called Strangers in a Tangled Wilderness

1120
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,520
Speaker 1: and we are putting out a book that, Oh, this

1121
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 1: is the opposite vibe of what you just said. I'm

1122
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,680
Speaker 1: so sorry. Both vibes are important. Yes, we are putting

1123
00:57:21,680 --> 00:57:24,360
Speaker 1: out a book called Orso Wartime Journals of an Anarchist

1124
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: and it is written by Lorenzo Arcetti, who is an

1125
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: Italian anarchist who died in the fight against ISIS and

1126
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:36,080
Speaker 1: Rojeva died in the process of trying to protect the

1127
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: northeastern Syrian Autonomous Communities, and his comrades smuggled out his

1128
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: journals to Italy. They were published in Italian and we

1129
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: have the great honor of being able to publish the

1130
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: English translation. There's articles, there's pieces from his father in

1131
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: there talking about what it's like to have lost a

1132
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:00,240
Speaker 1: kid in that fight, and also pieces just frame the

1133
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,240
Speaker 1: whole thing. So if you're like Margaret, I don't even

1134
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:04,919
Speaker 1: know this thing you're talking about, hopefully this book will

1135
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:07,800
Speaker 1: have been given enough context. Because we love context here

1136
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 1: that it should still be readable and it will be

1137
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 1: out very soon. Is available for pre order now, and

1138
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 1: if you just look up or so o RS Strangers

1139
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 1: in a Tangled Wilderness, you should be able to find

1140
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 1: a pre order link for that.

1141
00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 2: That's what I got. That sounds amazing.

1142
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:25,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think we'll probably try and do

1143
00:58:25,520 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: some content around that once it comes out, and I

1144
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: genuinely think it takes both things. I also think we

1145
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: need to remember that we are alive and love watching.

1146
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:38,439
Speaker 1: I'm literally gonna just go watch a bunch of TV

1147
00:58:38,480 --> 00:58:39,960
Speaker 1: because my work week is done as soon.

1148
00:58:39,800 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 2: As I yes, get it. You have to escape so

1149
00:58:43,640 --> 00:58:45,960
Speaker 2: you can return fully recharged.

1150
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: Okay, oh yeah, I eat whatever the cheesy like I

1151
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: think I probably have like vegan corn dogs in the freezer.

1152
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna geat the worst food in my house and

1153
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 1: turn off my brain until Monday, when I will go

1154
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: back to work. That's not sure, I have to go

1155
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,919
Speaker 1: back to work way before then, but for tonight I'm

1156
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 1: free anyway. Thank you so much for being the guest,

1157
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: and I will talk to you and everyone else soon.

1158
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: Thanks Mike. Hi.

1159
00:59:10,000 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1160
00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,

1161
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: visit our website

1162
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:20,439
Speaker 2: Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1163
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.