Speaker 1: I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. When
Speaker 1: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 1: And when I find my ball in a bright egg
Speaker 1: Frida egg, the dreaded Frida egg, Friday bride egg, Lie,
Speaker 1: I'm about ready to run off the golf course. All right. Back,
Speaker 1: by popular demand, we have a couple of our most
Speaker 1: popular guests, PGA tour player Zach Blair and lawyer by day,
Speaker 1: phenomenal golf photographer by hobby John Cavalier, you may know
Speaker 1: him as links Gems. Gentlemen, Welcome back.
Speaker 2: Hey guys doing thanks, thanks so much. And I feel
Speaker 2: like I should be getting strokes just just by talking
Speaker 2: to you guys here.
Speaker 1: I need some some strokes. If we ever played from
Speaker 1: Zach for sure, you know, especially coming out of winter.
Speaker 3: Well, we got to get out somewhere this year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you know, there's so many options. We'll get
Speaker 1: into all the options here and shortly, I'm sure. So
Speaker 1: tonight we're gonna do things a little different. You know,
Speaker 1: We're just gonna ask questions and let these two guys talk.
Speaker 1: Considering they've you know, they're playing all over the place
Speaker 1: and uh, you know they've they've played everywhere. I'm just
Speaker 1: a novice in this threesome here. So both of you, Well,
Speaker 1: Zach you're right out there in the Monterey Peninsula right now,
Speaker 1: and John you went out there recently. So you know,
Speaker 1: let's just cut to the chase and talk about Cyprus.
Speaker 1: You know, Zach, you played there on Monday. Why don't
Speaker 1: you give us a lowdown about how it was.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you know it is. You hear it
Speaker 3: all the time about how great it is, and you
Speaker 3: know how spectacular that place is, and you know, it
Speaker 3: kind of lives up to its reputation every time you
Speaker 3: get out there. It's, you know, pretty breathtaking. It's a
Speaker 3: really fun golf course. That's the best way I can
Speaker 3: describe it. It's extremely fun, and it's sporty and you got,
Speaker 3: you know, got a bunch of wedges in there, and
Speaker 3: you can get to a couple of the par five
Speaker 3: and a bunch of really good part of threes, and
Speaker 3: you know, it's just really enjoyable. It gets more fun
Speaker 3: each time you go out there. I've been lucky enough
Speaker 3: to play it a few times, so it's a it's
Speaker 3: always a treat.
Speaker 1: John, you were out there last month, it looked like,
Speaker 1: you know from from the photos, you had an awesome
Speaker 1: day out there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if I played the same course or
Speaker 2: not that Zach played, because I don't remember reaching any
Speaker 2: of the par fives in two or having a bunch
Speaker 2: of wedges in. But I did play a course called
Speaker 2: Cypress Point while I was out there, and I will
Speaker 2: echo what Zach said. It's an amazing golf course. It's
Speaker 2: an amazing place, and it's one of those courses that
Speaker 2: it's just packed full of amazing moments. You know, like golf,
Speaker 2: we chase these courses and there are certain courses in
Speaker 2: certain places where you have these these moments like seeing
Speaker 2: the alps hole at National Golf Links for the first time,
Speaker 2: or seeing the clubhouse and then the ninth and eighteenth
Speaker 2: greens at Shinnecock or the ninth at Yale, where you
Speaker 2: just you get this indelible memory. And it's Cyprus. The
Speaker 2: thing that struck me the most was that it's just
Speaker 2: end to end, wall to wall amazing moments. It's just
Speaker 2: an incredible place to have a golf course. It lived
Speaker 2: up to every bit of hype and expectation that I had.
Speaker 2: And then from just an amazing place.
Speaker 1: So you know, everybody's seeing the pictures. I've looked at
Speaker 1: them for countless hours. I'm curious, since both of you've
Speaker 1: been out of there multiple times, what's the best part
Speaker 1: of the Cypress experience that nobody knows about.
Speaker 3: I mean, I just you know, you always hear about fifteen, sixteen,
Speaker 3: seventeen and how amazing those holes are. And you know,
Speaker 3: those holes are amazing, they're unbelievable, but every other hole
Speaker 3: on that golf course is pretty unbelievable as well. So
Speaker 3: it kind of you know, those holes one through fourteen
Speaker 3: and they get overshadowed a little bit by by those
Speaker 3: ocean holes. But I mean, every hole on that course
Speaker 3: is so fun and entertaining, and you know, you got
Speaker 3: so many different shots and they you have to play
Speaker 3: and different looks, kind of going through the dunes and
Speaker 3: into the trees and then out of the trees into
Speaker 3: the dunes, and then you finally do get to those
Speaker 3: ocean holls. It's just like it's amazing, but no one
Speaker 3: ever talks about any of those other holes, and they're
Speaker 3: pretty awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I could not agree with you more. I was
Speaker 2: absolutely blown away with how good the quote other holes
Speaker 2: on the golf course are I Just like Zach said,
Speaker 2: you hear about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. Occasionally you hear some
Speaker 2: negative comments about eighteen, but you don't hear much about
Speaker 2: anything else. And somebody told me, who I talked to
Speaker 2: before I went out there, that when they had played it,
Speaker 2: the rest of the course is so good that they
Speaker 2: actually sort of forgot about the other holes. And when
Speaker 2: I was there, I found myself in the exact same boat.
Speaker 2: It's just so overwhelmingly stunning, and the quality of golf
Speaker 2: is just so good from the very first shot of
Speaker 2: the day that it's really hard to look ahead to
Speaker 2: anything beyond what's right in front of you. I mean,
Speaker 2: bottom line, you get holes like eight nine to two
Speaker 2: short par fours, the thirteenth hole with the green backstop
Speaker 2: by the bunkers, right next to the ocean. These are
Speaker 2: holes that are top fifty in the world, and no
Speaker 2: one ever talks about them. And it's understandable, because fifteen
Speaker 2: through seventeen really are other worldly. I mean, they are
Speaker 2: as good as it can possibly get in the world
Speaker 2: of golf. But I was just stunned by how good
Speaker 2: the rest of the course was it's incredible.
Speaker 1: It's interesting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, oh no, go ahead.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious with you guys both being McDonald and
Speaker 1: Rainer fans, And obviously the Rainer head routed the course
Speaker 1: and then he passed away and mackenzie kind of took
Speaker 1: over the project. How do you guys think the course
Speaker 1: would be? Head Ray been there and used template hole
Speaker 1: golf into the course.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've actually been. You know, I've talked
Speaker 3: about that before and it's hard to say that it
Speaker 3: would have been better than it is, but I you know,
Speaker 3: I argue that I don't think it would have been
Speaker 3: any worse because I mean, that piece of property, with
Speaker 3: how spectacular it is, you see what you know Rainer
Speaker 3: was able to do over at Fisher's Island. I mean,
Speaker 3: I think it would have been really good. But obviously,
Speaker 3: you know McKenzie with how magical he was with doing
Speaker 3: his bunkers and everything like that, it fit awesome out there.
Speaker 3: But I mean, I think it would have been really
Speaker 3: special if Rainer was able to do it. But you know,
Speaker 3: there's no knocking the way it is now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you'll never get me to admit that that Rainer
Speaker 2: would not have been able to do as good of
Speaker 2: a job as any other architect who had given a
Speaker 2: piece of property. As you guys both know, I.
Speaker 4: Think I'm just a Rainer fan to the extreme, so
Speaker 4: to speak.
Speaker 2: It's very interesting to think about the piece of property
Speaker 2: that Cyprus sits on and where certain templates would go.
Speaker 2: When I was standing on the eighth t at Cyprus,
Speaker 2: I found myself thinking that this would be a neat
Speaker 2: spot to build, sort of an outs punch bowl type
Speaker 2: of a whole if you extended it.
Speaker 4: There are a lot of neat possibilities in that regard.
Speaker 2: I've also played a lot more mc Rainer courses than
Speaker 2: mackenzie courses, and from sort of just now getting into
Speaker 2: the bigger parts of Mackenzie's body of work, but I
Speaker 2: will say that Mackenzie's style suits that location about as
Speaker 2: good as any style could suit the location. I mean
Speaker 2: the way he does his bunkering, the way he routed
Speaker 2: the golf or I guess Rayner routed most of the
Speaker 2: golf course, but the way he took advantage of that routing,
Speaker 2: the way he sort of ignored the usual way of
Speaker 2: spacing the the part three's and the part five's out
Speaker 2: I thought he did an incredible job. I do think though,
Speaker 2: that Rayner would have done a as incredible of a
Speaker 2: job as as mckimsee did. I'll never admit that Rayner
Speaker 2: would be outdone by somebody else. I'm just too big
Speaker 2: a fan.
Speaker 1: Interesting. So, you guys have both played a ton in
Speaker 1: the northern California area, and I'm curious to hear you
Speaker 1: know there's a dearth of great golf out there. How
Speaker 1: you'd rank the courses, say, if you had to go
Speaker 1: one through five on the Peninsula and including San Francisco.
Speaker 3: Well, I've never played San Francisco Golf Club, unfortunately, but
Speaker 3: you know I've I've heard it's great. But of the
Speaker 3: you know, of the courses, and so are we talking
Speaker 3: like Cyprus, Pebble, Monterey Peninsula, Spyglass and San Francisco Golf Club.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you could go San Francisco Golf Club, Cal Club,
Speaker 1: Olympic Club, Pasa Tiempo. All those are in play. Man.
Speaker 3: I haven't played enough in San Francisco to really dive
Speaker 3: into that, you know, and I haven't even been out
Speaker 3: to Pasa Tampo. But I mean, as far you know,
Speaker 3: I've played, I've played a lot out as far as
Speaker 3: the ones on the Peninsula go. I mean, I give Cyprus,
Speaker 3: you know, the head over heels favorite for me, and
Speaker 3: then two would probably be Pebble Beach. I wish it
Speaker 3: had a little bit more of a rugged look to
Speaker 3: it like Cypress has. I think it's a little too
Speaker 3: cleaned up and everything like that. But then the next
Speaker 3: for me would be the Shor's Course at Monterey Peninsula.
Speaker 3: I think that's one of the most unbelievable golf courses
Speaker 3: that no one ever talks about. You never hear anybody
Speaker 3: mention that place, and it's like one of the most
Speaker 3: visually most amazing places that I've ever played. You get
Speaker 3: so many of those holes right on the water that
Speaker 3: would be right up there with Pebble for me, and
Speaker 3: then Spyglasses.
Speaker 2: So we're in large agreements, Zacha. For me, Cyprus is
Speaker 2: by far and away the clear number one, and Pebble
Speaker 2: is by far and away the clear number two, despite
Speaker 2: a few flaws that I think you and I would
Speaker 2: both agree could be cleaned up, although acknowledging that Pebble
Speaker 2: as a public resort course has some limitations that it
Speaker 2: has to sort of adhere to given its business model.
Speaker 2: Three for me would be San Francisco Golf Club, which
Speaker 2: is an incredible pilling half the golf course, which you
Speaker 2: really have to see to believe, Zach, You've got to
Speaker 2: get out there. You will absolutely adore it. For this
Speaker 2: is where it gets a little tough for me. For
Speaker 2: if I can sort of group them together, he'd be
Speaker 2: talking Monterey Peninsula. For me, I believe I would have
Speaker 2: a hard time deciding between Dunes and Sure. I love Strands.
Speaker 2: The short course is unbelievable. The Dunes course really pleasantly
Speaker 2: surprised me, and we can talk about that in detail
Speaker 2: if you want to, Andy, But for the five spot,
Speaker 2: for me, it would be a really difficult call to
Speaker 2: make between Cal Club and Postimpo. I really like both
Speaker 2: of them. If you put a gun to my head,
Speaker 2: I'd go with Cal Club, but it's really close. I
Speaker 2: really liked both of those golf closes that happily play
Speaker 2: at any time. There's just a lot of good golf
Speaker 2: between San Francisco and Monterey. And Metal Club is another
Speaker 2: one that I'd consider to be just as just as
Speaker 2: worthy as those two. So I guess I gave you
Speaker 2: seven instead.
Speaker 4: Of five, But that would be my Listy Metal Club Sawston.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more
Speaker 1: about MPCC, which Alan ship Nutt called this week the
Speaker 1: best thirty six holes of golf in America, best thirty
Speaker 1: six hole golf club in America. So love to hear
Speaker 1: what you guys think and of that statement and kind
Speaker 1: of how it would stack up with wing Foot, Baltus Rawl,
Speaker 1: you know another ones that you've played.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll go ahead, go ahead. I'm sorry, Zach. I
Speaker 2: don't mean to step on your toes there. I will
Speaker 2: say this, I liked it better than Wingfoot and Baltus Raw.
Speaker 2: The scenery probably has a lot to do with that,
Speaker 2: and again, given that I am the the rank hack
Speaker 2: of the group we have tonight, it also probably has
Speaker 2: a little bit to do with difficulty. I mean, I
Speaker 2: found dunes in Shore to be much more playable to
Speaker 2: some extent in Wingfoot, but to a far extent Baltus Raw,
Speaker 2: which just crushes me. And I do know that it
Speaker 2: is sort of the goal of the club to be
Speaker 2: recognized in that group being of the best thirty six
Speaker 2: hole courses in the world, and I certainly think they're
Speaker 2: on the right path. I mean, the Dunes Course, and
Speaker 2: after Zach gives us the impression, I'll tell you what
Speaker 2: I thought of the Dunes.
Speaker 3: But.
Speaker 2: The two courses just they're incredibly beautiful. They mesh so
Speaker 2: well together. It doesn't feel crowded or cramped at all.
Speaker 2: The property is spectacular and just the ambiance of playing
Speaker 2: so many holes with the Pacific Ocean in view is
Speaker 2: an experience that you're just not going to be able
Speaker 2: to duplicate that other clubs around the country. It's just
Speaker 2: it's really a one of a kind experience for a
Speaker 2: thirty six hole club.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, I
Speaker 3: haven't been able to play the Dunes course yet, but
Speaker 3: I've played with the Jackson con guys that you know,
Speaker 3: we're a major part in doing that out there. I
Speaker 3: was able to to play with them at Scottsdale National
Speaker 3: last week and talked to them a lot about it,
Speaker 3: you know, went and walked around, uh yesterday and today
Speaker 3: saw the place, and I mean visually, it's unbelievable, and
Speaker 3: I mean just just from the views. I mean, I
Speaker 3: don't know how you could beat that with any other
Speaker 3: thirty six hole course that that that I know about.
Speaker 3: In America. But uh, I mean, like I'm a huge
Speaker 3: fan of the Shores course. So if it's anything like
Speaker 3: the Shores course as far as playability and fun, I mean,
Speaker 3: that kind of takes the cake for me, because you know,
Speaker 3: Wingfoot is great and Balta Straw they're great, but they're
Speaker 3: you know, they're championship major type tracks and venues. You know,
Speaker 3: they're ballbusters. They're gonna you're gonna go out there and
Speaker 3: they're gonna be tough from from the first hole to
Speaker 3: the last. And uh, you know each course, bal To
Speaker 3: Straw and wings you know, they got their course that
Speaker 3: doesn't host the majors, which I've heard both of them
Speaker 3: are really good. But I mean i'd probably give it
Speaker 3: to I probably give the nod to Monterey just because
Speaker 3: of how fun they are and how playable they are
Speaker 3: for probably the everyday person.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean, I think that's the shift
Speaker 1: in really architecture and people are starting to realize that
Speaker 1: that'sa championship golf and difficulty aren't the you know, really
Speaker 1: true definition of a great golf course. I think they
Speaker 1: have a part in you know, determining certain courses greatness,
Speaker 1: but definitely not the shouldn't be the defining factor. So
Speaker 1: you know, Zach, You're kind of parlayed perfectly into talking
Speaker 1: about you know, Scott Steel National and Jackson and Conn.
Speaker 1: I'm curious what you thought about the bad little nine
Speaker 1: the little part three course that Bob Parsons built out
Speaker 1: there to be, you know, the hardest part three course
Speaker 1: in America.
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't know if I can say enough
Speaker 3: good things about, you know, my experience out Snow National
Speaker 3: just I mean, from the moment we got there till
Speaker 3: the moment we left, I mean, I don't I seriously
Speaker 3: don't know if I've ever been to a club in
Speaker 3: my entire life that was as enjoyable and fun and inviting.
Speaker 3: And I mean they just did everything that I could
Speaker 3: ever want at a club. From the moment that I
Speaker 3: got out of my car till the moment I left,
Speaker 3: it was unbelievable. And then you know, the golf was
Speaker 3: just kind of it was awesome. I mean, that place
Speaker 3: is so cool that that little nine hole part three
Speaker 3: course is unbelievable. I mean, it's definitely accomplished its goal
Speaker 3: of being the hardest part three course in the world.
Speaker 4: I bet.
Speaker 3: You can make that place as hard as you would
Speaker 3: ever want it to be. I guess on Fridays they
Speaker 3: kind of set it up, you know, as hard as
Speaker 3: they can and give you a chance. If you break
Speaker 3: par or shoot even they give you like a thousand
Speaker 3: dollars bar tab or something like that. So it's a
Speaker 3: pretty cool little, uh little game they get on Fridays.
Speaker 3: And I don't think anybody's even touched that, you know,
Speaker 3: going out there for the first time that day. But
Speaker 3: I mean it's so cool and at the same time,
Speaker 3: they can set it up as easy as they want
Speaker 3: it too. There's a lot that the greens are massive
Speaker 3: for the most part, and there's a lot of undulation
Speaker 3: and slope and they can put pins in really easy
Speaker 3: spots and they get really fun for anybody of any
Speaker 3: skill level, I guess. But I mean it's so cool. Visually,
Speaker 3: it's awesome. They did a really good job out there,
Speaker 3: and I was able to see, you know, some of
Speaker 3: the other work they did out on the other course,
Speaker 3: which is you know, looks like it's pretty tough and
Speaker 3: pretty good as well. So I really enjoyed it, you know.
Speaker 1: I got a lot of craft. I wrote my newsletter
Speaker 1: that Phoenix and Scottsdale was an over like a below
Speaker 1: average golf town, and I just I got by people,
Speaker 1: and I'd love to hear your guys's two takes on
Speaker 1: on the subject matter.
Speaker 3: Yeah, take it away, John.
Speaker 2: Well, look, I haven't played a lot of golf in
Speaker 2: the Phoenix and Scottsdale area, and so my response to
Speaker 2: you would be, I think it's reasonable to assume that
Speaker 2: there is a reason that I haven't played a whole
Speaker 2: lot of golf in the Phoenix and Scottsdale area. I
Speaker 2: am not normally a big fan of desert golf usually
Speaker 2: as far as playability goes, it just isn't a style
Speaker 2: of golf that appeals to me. By definition, desert golf
Speaker 2: isn't really can't really be minimalists, which I tend to
Speaker 2: gravitate towards that that kind of a style. Everything is manufactured,
Speaker 2: and it's very difficult, I've found for architects, and especially
Speaker 2: since a lot of those courses were built during the
Speaker 2: same time period when a lot of architects weren't.
Speaker 4: Even paying attention to that kind of thing.
Speaker 2: What you end up with is a lot of courses
Speaker 2: that don't really fit into my typical preferred style. Of play,
Speaker 2: so to speak. But I've been that once. I played
Speaker 2: half a dozen seven eight courses out that way. I
Speaker 2: liked a couple of them, didn't like a couple others. Again,
Speaker 2: I don't like to criticize an area or a specific
Speaker 2: golf course too harshly, but it's just not an area
Speaker 2: that is my cup of teaths, so to speak. You know,
Speaker 2: there are in the list of places in the United
Speaker 2: States that I would rather take a golf trip to.
Speaker 2: There are probably thirty or forty locales that would be
Speaker 2: on that list ahead of the Scott's the area. They
Speaker 2: got great weather in the winter, though, so they shouldn't
Speaker 2: be too upset.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think the easiest way to put
Speaker 3: that is, like John just said, I think there's so
Speaker 3: many areas that are head over heels better, that have
Speaker 3: such a bigger group of great golf courses that it's
Speaker 3: hard to head to Phoenix just for the weather or
Speaker 3: just for you know, the handful of good golf courses
Speaker 3: when you could, you know, pick thirty other places in
Speaker 3: America that have way more courses that are really really
Speaker 3: good and the weather's probably just as good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's my whole point was quantity does an
Speaker 1: equal quality. So so you know, speaking of we were
Speaker 1: just talking about nine whole courses, I'd love to hear
Speaker 1: some of your guys' favorite nine whole courses that you've played.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that that bad little nine was as
Speaker 3: cool as you get from a little part three perspective.
Speaker 3: But one of my favorite courses I think in the
Speaker 3: entire world is Cohukuo Golf Club or golf course whatever
Speaker 3: out on the north Shore in Hawaii. It's it's not
Speaker 3: always in the best shape, but i mean, man, it's
Speaker 3: on the coolest piece of property, and it's got some
Speaker 3: really cool holes with some great little green complexes, And
Speaker 3: you know, I think if that if that place ever
Speaker 3: got any money put into it, I think it would
Speaker 3: be the best nine hole course in the world.
Speaker 2: Probably I gotta get out to Hawaii. In my book,
Speaker 2: it would be Dunes Club number one by a pretty
Speaker 2: wide margin. Mike Kaiser's Playground in southwestern Michigan is uh
Speaker 2: just a terrific place. Again. It's it's got the architecture,
Speaker 2: it's got the vibe. It's got so many holes that
Speaker 2: can be played but from different angles, from different keys
Speaker 2: that really changes the composition. Of the golf course, which
Speaker 2: I think is terrific. A close second would be Whitonsville
Speaker 2: south of Boston, which is an old Donald Ross nine
Speaker 2: hole course that is both beautiful and just terrific to play,
Speaker 2: absolute blast.
Speaker 4: Anybody who lives in the Northeast needs to see that place.
Speaker 2: And then beyond that it gets a little bit tough.
Speaker 2: There are a couple that I know I will love
Speaker 2: that I need to see, like Culver and Sweden's Cove,
Speaker 2: but I think Dunes Club in Whitonsville would be the
Speaker 2: clear top of the list for me for nine hole courses.
Speaker 4: YEA.
Speaker 3: Another another cool little nine hole course in Saint George's,
Speaker 3: Utah is the San Hollow Links nine at Yeah San Holla.
Speaker 3: That's I think that's probably the best course in Utah.
Speaker 3: So that's another cool one to check out if you
Speaker 3: ever in the area.
Speaker 1: That place looks about as visually stunning as any course
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. At Sanjallo.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty unbelievable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I played a I played a cool little nine
Speaker 1: hole down in Orlando, Uh Winter Park. It's like a
Speaker 1: It was twenty four hundred yards. And then they brought
Speaker 1: in Keith Rebb and Riley John's and then also Blake Conant,
Speaker 1: the two of the guys you know that have done
Speaker 1: a ton of work for Coren Crenshaw and they turned
Speaker 1: this little place like it's you know, nine holes twenty
Speaker 1: four hundred yards and it's like really it's kind of
Speaker 1: like strategic tough. The greens are amazing, the complexes, the
Speaker 1: bunkering is phenomenal, Like if you short sided yourself out there,
Speaker 1: you are just toast. I think I made four birdies
Speaker 1: and four bogies and nine I think nine hole golf
Speaker 1: has got to get more popular. I think it's awesome.
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's you know, eighteen is a long
Speaker 1: time stuff for you know, some people. I think nine
Speaker 1: you know, these nine whole courses I think are so cool.
Speaker 3: So speaking I agree, speaking of I love non traditional courses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that plays right into the next question I had,
Speaker 1: what what kind of unique golf designs would you like
Speaker 1: to see more of in the future, Whether it's like
Speaker 1: that cheap ranch model where it's t the ball anywhere,
Speaker 1: play to any hole. More so, like you know, they
Speaker 1: have like nine greens and you can play it any
Speaker 1: way you want, like five whole courses or short courses
Speaker 1: putting courses. What do you guys kind of would you
Speaker 1: like to see more of in the future.
Speaker 3: I think like nine whole courses and part three, like
Speaker 3: little nine hole Part three courses. The other ones are
Speaker 3: really cool concepts, I think to me, you know, like
Speaker 3: the whole courses or the you know, the sheep Branch
Speaker 3: type deal where you can play to any green you want.
Speaker 3: They're really cool on paper, but if you ever get
Speaker 3: any demand then people actually want to go play that
Speaker 3: type of place. It gets really hard, you know, when
Speaker 3: there's multiple groups out there and they're like, you know,
Speaker 3: a couple of people are trying to go to the
Speaker 3: same green and people are hitting over people's heads. Like
Speaker 3: they sound really cool, but I just don't think they work. So,
Speaker 3: I mean what we were just saying, I think nine
Speaker 3: whole courses are very undervalued and very you know, no
Speaker 3: one seems to want to build them for whatever reason,
Speaker 3: but you know, I think they're really fun. Like that
Speaker 3: Cuhuckoo course is as cool as it gets, and you
Speaker 3: know it takes you know, an hour and a half
Speaker 3: or two hours and you're out of there at max.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, Zach is right about the Sheep
Speaker 2: ranch course, and we talked about this recently, but there's
Speaker 2: another model where we were speaking about where you could
Speaker 2: play as a nine whole part three course, a three
Speaker 2: whole full length course and what have you, but it's
Speaker 2: just not workable if there's more than a group or
Speaker 2: two out there, because otherwise it's just a crossfire. So
Speaker 2: it's I do agree though it for me, Friar's Head
Speaker 2: does this perfectly if you're talking about little extras for
Speaker 2: the members that make the course a really fun place
Speaker 2: or the club a really fun place to be. Friar's
Speaker 2: Head has its big eighteen hull core crunch all course,
Speaker 2: which is fantastic, but beyond that, they also have a
Speaker 2: nine to hole par three course that you can go
Speaker 2: play around on if you just want to get a
Speaker 2: a quick loop in. They have an incredible practice facility
Speaker 2: with two short game greens and a full driving range,
Speaker 2: and then they have a Himalayas style full putting course
Speaker 2: that you can play on for as long as you
Speaker 2: want to. And I just think that those are incredible
Speaker 2: amenities for either a membership with for a resort to
Speaker 2: have as an alternative to going out on the big
Speaker 2: course and maybe losing four hours that you might not
Speaker 2: otherwise have. If it were up to me, every club
Speaker 2: that could afford one would have a putty course. I
Speaker 2: just think they're incredibly fun. I think it's a relatively
Speaker 2: inexpensive way to add a very desirable feature and alternative
Speaker 2: future to a course, and I think you'll see a
Speaker 2: lot of that in the near future at at high
Speaker 2: end clubs we have the room to put one down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's I heard Bally Neil in Colorado
Speaker 1: is putting in like a Himalaya style course. They've got
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. That's a cool place I want
Speaker 1: to check out this year. So since we've got you know,
Speaker 1: three of the biggest McDonald's and Rainer fans on the
Speaker 1: planet on this podcast, I think we have to talk
Speaker 1: a little bit about, you know, template golf and curious
Speaker 1: what you got your guys's favorite template holes are and
Speaker 1: you know why they're your favorite.
Speaker 3: I really like the punch bowl Alps combo like at
Speaker 3: Fisher's Island. I think it's really cool just kind of
Speaker 3: hitt into that flag pole and then kind of getting
Speaker 3: up to the top of the hill and seeing where
Speaker 3: you're you know, you're ball ended up. I think it's,
Speaker 3: you know, a hole that they don't build as much
Speaker 3: as I think they should anymore. It's just a fun
Speaker 3: way to spice things up. But I would say that
Speaker 3: or a beer at screen probably.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean the third at National in the fourth
Speaker 2: of Fisher's Islands are probably two of my ten.
Speaker 4: Favorite holes that I've ever played, so I certainly agree.
Speaker 5: I don't know why you don't see as many of
Speaker 5: them as you used to, but it's certainly one that
Speaker 5: I love. I also love the leaven template that you
Speaker 5: don't see too often, but whenever I play a Raider
Speaker 5: course that still has it's leaving hole intact, it always
Speaker 5: ends up being one of my favorites on the golf course.
Speaker 4: And of course the rare Dan is always a.
Speaker 2: Wonderful hole play.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. I was I met a member of
Speaker 1: a club. I'll keep it nameless, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: want to bother anybody. But they brought in an architect
Speaker 1: who looked at their Alps punch bowl template and they
Speaker 1: you know, they were having drainage problems, which is one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that modern architecture went away from the
Speaker 1: punch bowl. Even though they had technology that could help
Speaker 1: those drainage problems. And you know this, this unnamed architect
Speaker 1: who has a track record for you know, dismantling rainer courses.
Speaker 1: He said, you know, you need to just raise this
Speaker 1: punch bowl green up, and he turned the green into
Speaker 1: a plateau green. So, I mean, that's just what happened
Speaker 1: in the you know, seventies, eighties, and nineties, I think,
Speaker 1: And hopefully it seems like we're getting back to punch bowls.
Speaker 1: I know Gil hands as a new one at stream
Speaker 1: Song Black that I saw that looks pretty cool, I'd
Speaker 1: say in terms of my favorite template hall, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm a sucker for the short. I think that I've
Speaker 1: made so many bogies on short holes because like the
Speaker 1: green is just so tough. If you don't hit it
Speaker 1: in the exact right spot, you know you're gonna walk
Speaker 1: away with the bogie.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think, I mean, the way we talk
Speaker 3: about these holes, it's pretty unbelievable to hear that. You know,
Speaker 3: how much we love the punch bowl and how much
Speaker 3: we love the ri Dan, and how much we love
Speaker 3: the short and the leaven and the road hall and
Speaker 3: stuff like that, and to see it not them not
Speaker 3: built more It's just it like mind boggling every day
Speaker 3: when I think about it, I'm just like, where did
Speaker 3: people fall off the wagon and think that it was
Speaker 3: you know, okay to stop building these courses. I mean
Speaker 3: they were used at every one of you know, Rayner
Speaker 3: and McDonald courses, and people loved all their courses, all
Speaker 3: of those all their courses are so unbelievably fun to
Speaker 3: play that it was like they understood if the you know,
Speaker 3: if it wasn't broke, why try and fix it. They
Speaker 3: kept using it and kept using it, and they kept working. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Then then someone came along and was like, you know,
Speaker 3: we shouldn't do those anymore. We should build, you know,
Speaker 3: a course that is so hard and people, you know,
Speaker 3: are going to lose all these golf balls and they
Speaker 3: can't remember any of the holes. Like I mean, we
Speaker 3: remember all these template holes so well because they're so
Speaker 3: enjoyable and fun. It's just like all of them are
Speaker 3: so good. At the end of the day, they're all awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it couldn't agree with you more. These are holes
Speaker 2: with the with the defined and demonstrated and very long
Speaker 2: track record of success, and like you said, people adore
Speaker 2: these holes. It makes no sense to me. And when
Speaker 2: you see some of these rainer courses up and around
Speaker 2: New York and some of the courses that Charlie Banks
Speaker 2: built using these templates, a lot of these courses are
Speaker 2: on really dull pieces of land. But the fact that
Speaker 2: they put these templates in and adapted them to that land,
Speaker 2: they were able to turn an otherwise very mediocre piece
Speaker 2: of ground into a course. Like ZECH said that you
Speaker 2: remember every hole on the golf course. If it was
Speaker 2: just a normal, typical modern day design, you'd walk off
Speaker 2: the course and you wouldn't be able to remember a thing.
Speaker 2: It just mind boggling is the perfect phrase for it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like when I go to a course built by
Speaker 3: I mean, it's really sad to say, and I harp
Speaker 3: on it every time I get on a podcast or
Speaker 3: talk about it. But any course that's been built in
Speaker 3: the last like forty years, I could you know, I
Speaker 3: remember Hall is really good, But I mean I can't
Speaker 3: differentiate half the part three's that any of these these
Speaker 3: architects build because they wanted to every part three at
Speaker 3: two you know, two o five to two twenty five
Speaker 3: and have a small green that that's hard to hit
Speaker 3: and you got to carry a bunker, and so you
Speaker 3: can't even get a shot close to a front pin,
Speaker 3: especially if it's downwind. And then half the time they're downhill,
Speaker 3: and it's just like I can't even remember any of
Speaker 3: the par threes. And then you go to a you know,
Speaker 3: a McDonald or a Rainer course and you got these
Speaker 3: template holes and you literally remember them to a key,
Speaker 3: exactly the way they played, exactly how the green was
Speaker 3: and you know why you like it so much was
Speaker 3: so defined because they kept doing the same stuff over
Speaker 3: and over. So it's just it's so weird to me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think everybody got in their own way, you know,
Speaker 1: and wanting to create their own genius, when really the
Speaker 1: greatest architects just took the principles from you know, the
Speaker 1: British Isles and what old Tom Morris was doing and
Speaker 1: James Braid and uh, you know really just you know,
Speaker 1: kind of learned from them, as opposed to you know,
Speaker 1: I think in the fifties sixties they got their technology
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, they could use CAD and create
Speaker 1: you know, I always laugh when I look at bunkers,
Speaker 1: it's like you can tell when they had the computer
Speaker 1: software because all of a sudden, these bunkers are perfect
Speaker 1: little circles and they look completely awful. It's so, you know,
Speaker 1: I think John touchdown Levin being an underappreciated template holes. Zach,
Speaker 1: do you have an underappreciated template hole? Man?
Speaker 3: I really like kind of the you know, you've talked
Speaker 3: about it a lot, that kind of like the volcano
Speaker 3: type green that kind of falls off on all the sides.
Speaker 3: I don't think that's used as much as it should
Speaker 3: be on some of those shorter kind of risk reward
Speaker 3: drivable type part four US. I think that's that's something
Speaker 3: that is missing out on a lot of places.
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, volcano greens are really cool. Like have
Speaker 1: you played out of Bedford Springs, John, Yes, they've got
Speaker 1: a good one.
Speaker 2: Right, they do.
Speaker 3: They do.
Speaker 2: Bedford Springs is a really underrated ross course, a lot
Speaker 2: of fun to play. Neat elevation change of course, kind
Speaker 2: of sits in a valley between two mountains, so that
Speaker 2: the whole play up the sides, which is how you
Speaker 2: end up with a volcano hole that sits the surroundings
Speaker 2: very well. But it's a neat place. And yes, that
Speaker 2: is a really nice example of the Volcano Temple.
Speaker 1: Yeah, another great one is a short little part four.
Speaker 1: Holston Hills has a great one. Lulu Country Club has
Speaker 1: a great one. I gotta do a post on volcano holes.
Speaker 1: It will be one of these in the future. So outside,
Speaker 1: you know, I think we've talked enough.
Speaker 3: We have.
Speaker 1: We'll still talk probably more Rainer McDonald Banks. So if
Speaker 1: you were going to go play a golf course in
Speaker 1: a city and somebody had to say, you know, we've
Speaker 1: got every architect that's designed a course here and you
Speaker 1: can't choose McDonald, Rayner or Banks, who are you going with?
Speaker 1: And why.
Speaker 4: I'd go with McKimson.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I probably would too. You know, I don't know
Speaker 3: if I've ever played a Mackenzie course that I don't
Speaker 3: really really like, so I would probably say him, or
Speaker 3: I've played a lot of tilling House courses that I
Speaker 3: really have enjoyed. You know, Somerset Hills is one of
Speaker 3: my favorite courses in the world, and that's kind of
Speaker 3: one of the places that I've said that if there
Speaker 3: was if I could choose one course to play for
Speaker 3: the rest of my life, that that might be the one. So,
Speaker 3: you know, I think I might have to throw his
Speaker 3: name in the mix too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think.
Speaker 2: He's one of my all time favorites as well. In
Speaker 2: Somerset Hill's first course I ever did a photo tour of.
Speaker 2: It is an amazing place. It's my favorite Tilly Aance
Speaker 2: course by a pretty good margin, and certainly one of
Speaker 2: my favorite courses in the area, so I can certainly respect.
Speaker 1: That pure Yeah, that's it, Tilly. I think William Flynn's
Speaker 1: really criminally underrated. I haven't played a bad Flynn course,
Speaker 1: but probably I'd probably go with Mackenzie or or Tilly too.
Speaker 1: So if you guys could restore or renovate one golf
Speaker 1: course in America, what would it be and why?
Speaker 3: I think I would do Augusta and take it back
Speaker 3: to kind of how it was originally. I see some
Speaker 3: pictures of some of those green complexes back in the day,
Speaker 3: the really wild looking ones that are, and some of
Speaker 3: those the bunkers, how they were like a little more
Speaker 3: Cyprus pointy with the kind of jagged lines and they
Speaker 3: weren't all so perfect. I think that would be a
Speaker 3: really cool place. Not that Augusta isn't amazing, but I
Speaker 3: think that would kind of be a cool little thing
Speaker 3: to get it back to the way it was when
Speaker 3: they first built that place.
Speaker 1: Oh man, that's amazing. I think, Yeah, you look at
Speaker 1: it now and obviously it you know, gets a lot
Speaker 1: of coverage and there's all of courts sorts of synonymous
Speaker 1: love for it. But what it was originally to what
Speaker 1: it is now is a shell of itself. And you know,
Speaker 1: a certain family got their hands on it for a while,
Speaker 1: which will keep nameless. What about you, John, So, I would.
Speaker 2: Love to do a very faithful and caring restoration at Yale.
Speaker 2: It's one of my favorite courses as it is, it's
Speaker 2: an iconic McDonald rainer course, but I would love to
Speaker 2: put the third Green back where it's.
Speaker 4: Supposed to be.
Speaker 2: And I would love to just touch up the course,
Speaker 2: widen the greens out to their original to their original sizes,
Speaker 2: sharpen up the edges again, get the conditioning under control
Speaker 2: so that the course played firmer and faster and bouncier
Speaker 2: and the ball started moving on the ground like it's
Speaker 2: supposed to do there. And I think if you got
Speaker 2: the right person to do that and spend a little
Speaker 2: bit of money to get it where it could be,
Speaker 2: it would be one of the ten or twenty best
Speaker 2: courses in the world.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I remember playing Yale. I went out there last
Speaker 3: year after the PGA, right before the Hartford event, and
Speaker 3: you know, obviously i'm a big cebe McDonald's at trainer fan,
Speaker 3: so I really enjoyed it. But I thought, I mean,
Speaker 3: I thought the same thing. I just couldn't believe the uh,
Speaker 3: you know, the condition the place was in, you know,
Speaker 3: especially with I mean, that place has got to just
Speaker 3: be They've got to have some deep pockets around that
Speaker 3: area obviously that I think they could do so much
Speaker 3: with that place. And I mean it's a shame that
Speaker 3: it's not in like mint condition, to be honest.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, I don't I'm not. I'm not a
Speaker 2: conditioning freak.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: I don't mind playing courses that are a little scruffy.
Speaker 2: I don't you know. I'm not one of these guys
Speaker 2: that needs wall to wall green everywhere. And I know
Speaker 2: you're not either, Zach. The problem I have with it
Speaker 2: is the conditions that Yale impact the way the golf
Speaker 2: course plays, and it keeps the course from playing like
Speaker 2: McDonald and Rainer wanted and expected it to play. It's
Speaker 2: so soft it doesn't the ball doesn't move on the
Speaker 2: ground like it has to to take advantage of those
Speaker 2: wonderful architectural features that they have there.
Speaker 3: It's just it's really.
Speaker 2: In my view of tragedy just knowing what it could
Speaker 2: be if and I don't even think it would take
Speaker 2: that much work. I don't know why. I mean, grant
Speaker 2: it's a very difficult piece of property, and I'm sure
Speaker 2: if there are drainage issues that I haven't even thought up.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not an architect, but it's just given
Speaker 2: what they have there and the amazing architectural bones of
Speaker 2: that place, it's something that I would desperately like to
Speaker 2: see at some point.
Speaker 1: Not to mention the alumni base, you know, It's like
Speaker 1: I imagine you could get a right a fundraiser together
Speaker 1: and a couple of million bucks pretty easily, and you could,
Speaker 1: you know, get a guy like Silva who's done you know,
Speaker 1: great jobs with Reiner restorations and get him out there,
Speaker 1: and it would it would be you know, I'd imagine
Speaker 1: that the course, given what I've seen from photos and
Speaker 1: you know how bold the design is. I mean, it
Speaker 1: would be a top fifty golf course in the in
Speaker 1: the country, no problem.
Speaker 4: Hi Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm dead serious when I tell you
Speaker 2: that if you gave Silva a couple million bucks and
Speaker 2: a year to do his work, you're ending up with
Speaker 2: a top twenty golf course and as far as the
Speaker 2: money goes, Look, I mean, I don't throw a couple
Speaker 2: million dollars around easily, but I will tell you this.
Speaker 2: The you know you're talking about a fundraiser. Yale has
Speaker 2: an endowment of twenty five billion. That's a billion with
Speaker 2: a B dollars. You think that just for the good
Speaker 2: of the game, they could carve off a little slice
Speaker 2: of that and throw it at the golf course, if
Speaker 2: you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I don't even think that's a slice when you're talking billions.
Speaker 3: That's like a little crumb. That's a little crumb, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be good for it'd be good for
Speaker 1: the students, you know, be good for their well being.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm playing with a Yale alumn this week at
Speaker 3: the Pebble Beach. Maybe I'll have a little talk with
Speaker 3: her about it, see if she can get things working
Speaker 3: over there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, get on there, you know, get on there as an.
Speaker 2: The three of us will do it for half feet.
Speaker 3: I like that that'll be my that'll be my first
Speaker 3: big gig.
Speaker 1: All right. So what's one architect that you haven't seen
Speaker 1: a lot of that you're looking forward to seeing more of? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, I always think that when you see a
Speaker 1: handful of golf courses by an architect, every time you
Speaker 1: play a new one, you get a greater appreciation for him.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious who you guys want to see more of.
Speaker 3: I'd probably say, you know, you mentioned it earlier, but
Speaker 3: you know William Flynn. You know you hear of some
Speaker 3: of the courses that he's done that that are so amazing.
Speaker 3: And I have a couple of friends that are huge
Speaker 3: fans of his, and they, you know, tell me that
Speaker 3: he's their favorite. And I've only seen a couple and
Speaker 3: they've both been really, really good.
Speaker 2: So buy him. Yeah, come on out here, because we
Speaker 2: are spoiled with William Flynn courses in the Philadelphia area.
Speaker 2: We have great ones everywhere out this way. For me,
Speaker 2: it would either be Mackenzie. I'm kind of on a
Speaker 2: little bit of the Mackenzie hunt lately, given that I
Speaker 2: just played my first couple of them over the last
Speaker 2: eighteen months or so, and obviously love his work. So far,
Speaker 2: I think I played six of his courses in total,
Speaker 2: and I'd like to get that number up. Like Zach
Speaker 2: said earlier, I'd have to see one of his courses
Speaker 2: that I didn't really like, but beyond that, I'd love
Speaker 2: to see some more Langford courses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's uh, you gotta come to the Midwest, John,
Speaker 1: We can do. I've been talking to this to Blake Conant,
Speaker 1: who's a construction guy for you know, golf courses, and
Speaker 1: he wants to do a Langford Moreau tour where we
Speaker 1: play like five courses in three days.
Speaker 3: You guys are pretty lucky. You know. You're sitting here
Speaker 3: saying I want to you know, I want to see
Speaker 3: more of this, and you say come here, and you
Speaker 3: say I want to see more of this and you say,
Speaker 3: well you come to fill Ing and I'm stuck out
Speaker 3: there in Utah and there's absolutely no good ones.
Speaker 1: So you know, Zach, I think you got the world's
Speaker 1: smallest violin given your occupation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good point, good point.
Speaker 1: You know another I will agree there.
Speaker 2: Nobody has hated me to play golf.
Speaker 3: Yet. You guys are right, that was that time your fiction.
Speaker 2: The Utah problem anyway, right, Zack, So you know that's
Speaker 2: the that's the plan there.
Speaker 1: There's another guy I've been wanted to see is Ab McCann,
Speaker 1: who does I had a ton of courses up in
Speaker 1: the Northwest, and you know, these guys that follow Frida
Speaker 1: Egg have been telling me all about him. But you know,
Speaker 1: one of the places he originally laid out was cal
Speaker 1: Club and then he's just got you know, a flood
Speaker 1: of designs up in Oregon and you and Washington, lots
Speaker 1: of great country clubs.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: Obviously one of the big problems up there is that
Speaker 1: they are very, very overgrown, so probably all need big
Speaker 1: tree removal projects done.
Speaker 2: Amy McKenna just point out Lawyer by Day.
Speaker 1: See, that's that's why you need to get there.
Speaker 3: Any golf course architects like around you know that are
Speaker 3: building courses right now that you guys would want to
Speaker 3: go see more of their stuff, good question.
Speaker 2: I mean I'll play any Core Crench Shaw course based
Speaker 2: on name alone. I think their work is are the
Speaker 2: best of the modern architects along with Tom Doak. I mean,
Speaker 2: anywhere I go, if there's a course by one of
Speaker 2: those guys that I will check it out, just assuming
Speaker 2: that it's going to be very good, given what I've
Speaker 2: seen of their work already. Gil Hants is another guy
Speaker 2: I really like. I'm talking to Andy about this the
Speaker 2: other day. David David Eshler is a guy who's moving
Speaker 2: up on that list for me, given what I've a
Speaker 2: little that I've seen in his work, and what I'm
Speaker 2: hearing about is the work that he's currently doing. But
Speaker 2: those are those are really my guys. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: not many modern architects whose name alone will draw me
Speaker 2: to the course beyond the ones I just gave you.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm really excited to I want to go
Speaker 1: up to the Pacific Northwest. There's this guy, Dan Hickson
Speaker 1: who I met at the PGA show and he's designed
Speaker 1: a he's been working for nine years on this reversible course. Obviously,
Speaker 1: Doak's opened last year, but this guy's been working on
Speaker 1: this reversible course for almost a decade and he's got
Speaker 1: it's like the most incredible story. So he has no
Speaker 1: social media handles, he has no website, you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, how how do people get a hold of you?
Speaker 1: He goes, I figure, they'll, you know, find a way
Speaker 1: to get a hold of me if they really want
Speaker 1: to and and it turned you know, he played professionally.
Speaker 1: He's you know, his father was a golf pro in
Speaker 1: the area and he was a head pro. And then
Speaker 1: one day he just decided he wanted to be a
Speaker 1: golf course architect, quit his job and didn't go work
Speaker 1: for anybody, worked for himself, started doing like te's and
Speaker 1: bunker like singular teas and bunkers for courses around the
Speaker 1: Pacific Northwest. And now I think this will be his
Speaker 1: third solo design. But you know, kind of a crazy story.
Speaker 1: I'm actually writing about it now, so that guy I
Speaker 1: really want to see. And then Dave Essler, I'm really
Speaker 1: He's got this project called Pacific Gales, which is on
Speaker 1: the the Oregon coast, and from what I've heard, it
Speaker 1: might be a better piece of property than any of
Speaker 1: the bandoned courses, which is crazy.
Speaker 3: That Dan Hickson guy does a lot of good stuff
Speaker 3: up there too. A lot of people, you know, always
Speaker 3: are in my ear about that guy, you know, trying
Speaker 3: to get him to help out and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: So I think there's a lot of good guys. You know,
Speaker 3: a lot of people that do it now I think
Speaker 3: are pretty good. I think my biggest knock on anybody
Speaker 3: who builds golf courses right now, every single one of
Speaker 3: them makes the greens way too challenging and way too crazy.
Speaker 3: I just think you see so many of those old
Speaker 3: golf courses that are so fun and enjoyable. The greens
Speaker 3: are so tame, and you know, there's a handful of
Speaker 3: greens on a lot of those old courses that are wild,
Speaker 3: you know, but there they are appropriate places, whether it's
Speaker 3: you know, a part five or a short part four.
Speaker 3: You know, occasionally on a little part three. But you know,
Speaker 3: for the for the most part, the greens on those
Speaker 3: really good golf courses from the Golden Age, they're just
Speaker 3: they're so fun to put you know, they're not crazy
Speaker 3: and not too wild, at least from my perspective.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would agree with you. I played, I've played
Speaker 1: a good I'm now getting to be playing a good
Speaker 1: amount of dope courses. And that's just like my common
Speaker 1: complaint with them. I thought Stream Song Blue he did
Speaker 1: the best job I've seen where like he you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, like you want to challenge a
Speaker 1: great player, but with these greens, but you know, you
Speaker 1: got to give somebody a place to land the ball.
Speaker 1: Like I hate when you hit a shot ten feet
Speaker 1: from the flag and it spins down to like eighty
Speaker 1: feet away, or you know, if you land at one
Speaker 1: yard further tick off the back of the green like that,
Speaker 1: that to me is not you know, that's not challenging.
Speaker 1: That's just kind of stupid, you know, And I think
Speaker 1: I would agree with you in a certain extent with
Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of new architects do
Speaker 1: a great job with it.
Speaker 2: Though.
Speaker 1: I think I think Bill Kohorr and Crenshaw do an
Speaker 1: awesome job rewarding really good golf shots, while you know,
Speaker 1: like if you hit an average one, you don't have
Speaker 1: a good look. I think like making it relatively flat
Speaker 1: around the pin is still you know, people try, and
Speaker 1: it's like anything, they try and reinvent the wheel. But
Speaker 1: like you, if I hit it to eight feet on
Speaker 1: a four hundred and forty part four, I should be
Speaker 1: given a pretty good look at Bertie.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: And not only that, but you'll also end up with
Speaker 2: with ancillary benefits like better pace of play you give
Speaker 2: the golf, or the feeling like you can make some
Speaker 2: punts as opposed to just trying to lag everything through
Speaker 2: the crazy humps and swales, and you don't have as
Speaker 2: many three putts, which you know, no he likes the
Speaker 2: three putts, so you end up with a half eer
Speaker 2: golfer at the end of the round two. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's what Zack you said, you'll need to classic courses.
Speaker 1: What you see.
Speaker 2: You see huge greens that aren't necessarily flat and boring,
Speaker 2: but that have spots where you can make putts. And yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's certainly my preference. You can talk about the
Speaker 2: ALP's punch bowl green. Just think about that green at
Speaker 2: Fishers at Island. It's this gigantic green that has a
Speaker 2: dividing pump running through the middle of it. But if
Speaker 2: you're on the correct side of the green, you're gonna
Speaker 2: have a really nice look at a birdie, whether it's
Speaker 2: from five feet or twenty feet. Because the greens other
Speaker 2: than that one feature are relatively tame. To me, that's
Speaker 2: all you really need, you know, you don't need fifty
Speaker 2: different swales and mounds and bumps and bounces in every
Speaker 2: single green on the course. There's a place for it.
Speaker 2: I think Mayre Vinsula Dunes Club is a great example
Speaker 2: of the fifth green there. It's a drivable part four
Speaker 2: and the green is just insane. If you made eighteen
Speaker 2: of those, you'd have a problem. But in isolation and moderation,
Speaker 2: that kind of extreme green I think does have a place.
Speaker 2: It's just when they go over the top with it
Speaker 2: and you end up with stressful putting situations time and
Speaker 2: time again. Like Andy said, no matter how good your
Speaker 2: approach shots are, I just don't find that to be
Speaker 2: a whole lot of fun. Yeah, I hate.
Speaker 3: I just my biggest thing that I hate is when
Speaker 3: I get onto a green, you know, of one of
Speaker 3: those newer courses, and I've you know, hit a couple
Speaker 3: of decent shots, I guess, and maybe I haven't played
Speaker 3: that course enough to know where all the right places
Speaker 3: to miss are and I'm stuck all of a sudden
Speaker 3: with a with a putt where I literally have no
Speaker 3: chance to get this ball close. You know, the best
Speaker 3: you're gonna do is is twelve feet. If you hit
Speaker 3: like the miracle, best putt of your life, you're gonna
Speaker 3: have like a twelve footer. And I've just I don't
Speaker 3: see that all that often on on some of those
Speaker 3: older courses. You know, I don't think you're in spots
Speaker 3: where you can't get it close as much on those
Speaker 3: older courses as you are on the newer courses that
Speaker 3: are you know, being built today.
Speaker 1: Hey, did you watch the end of that golf last week?
Speaker 1: The playoffs?
Speaker 2: I didn't, Which what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: The waste manage? The one with Simpsons?
Speaker 2: I did?
Speaker 3: I saw.
Speaker 2: I saw the playoffs.
Speaker 1: He ended up so on sevent Team Zach. He ended
Speaker 1: up with that back pin. He ended up, Yeah, on
Speaker 1: the back right corner. I kind of nobody said anything.
Speaker 1: I almost said something, but I was like, that's kind
Speaker 1: of a stupid pin, you know, I did.
Speaker 3: It's like, that's an interesting hole. I don't know where
Speaker 3: he was, but you can on that hole, like if
Speaker 3: you're on the green, if you're on the back right
Speaker 3: of that green and the pins all the way in
Speaker 3: that low back little finger, you can like boomerang it around.
Speaker 3: There is a way. But if you don't hit it
Speaker 3: really good.
Speaker 2: You know, you could like hit it in the bunker
Speaker 2: or in the water.
Speaker 3: So I mean, that's a that's a really interesting hole.
Speaker 3: But again, that's that's one of those areas where it
Speaker 3: is on like a three hundred and twenty yard drivable hole,
Speaker 3: you know, that makes you think, do I want to
Speaker 3: hit a driver up there? And if I don't hit
Speaker 3: it good, I'm totally botched over on the right where
Speaker 3: I don't have any sort of angle. Like That's why
Speaker 3: Hideki was hitting his three wood on that hole to
Speaker 3: the front of the green, because even if he blocked it,
Speaker 3: he knew that he would have a shot. So that's
Speaker 3: one that I don't mind as much, you know, because
Speaker 3: it makes you think off the tee. You know, if
Speaker 3: Web was going to hit one out there to the
Speaker 3: right with the driver or whatever he hit and got
Speaker 3: it too far up, then he was really kind of
Speaker 3: jimmied there and wouldn't have a good angle. So that's
Speaker 3: kind of like more of a strategic thing there, because
Speaker 3: that green's not too out of control by any means.
Speaker 3: It's just if you've missed that shot in the wrong spot,
Speaker 3: like with a drive going for the green, you can
Speaker 3: be in a really really bad spot. Wise, coff Is
Speaker 3: actually I played the so he redid that course, you know,
Speaker 3: I don't know if he built that course and redid it.
Speaker 3: They redid that a couple of years ago and he
Speaker 3: redid the the new he did the redo at the
Speaker 3: North course at Tory Pines and I thought he did
Speaker 3: a really good job. I've actually really enjoyed both of those,
Speaker 3: both of those redos. I thought he did a really
Speaker 3: good job with them. You know.
Speaker 1: He did TPC Deer Run too.
Speaker 3: That's another course that I think is really really fun.
Speaker 3: They got a little driveable hole there too that I
Speaker 3: think it's like the fifteenth hole or something like that
Speaker 3: or fourteen, and it's kind of the same thing. They
Speaker 3: can get a back pin that if you do decide
Speaker 3: to go for it with a with a driver and
Speaker 3: you hit it right of the green, you can literally
Speaker 3: have no angle and you can be in a really
Speaker 3: bad spot where you just have to like ship it
Speaker 3: out and take like a twenty footer. But again, that's
Speaker 3: that's on a rare circumstance where it is a drivable hole.
Speaker 3: And that's the same thing with seventeen. It's kind of
Speaker 3: like that at TPC Sawgrass. I mean a TPC that
Speaker 3: one last week, TPC Phoenix, Scottsdale. Whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's that the I liked your run. I think
Speaker 1: it's uh. I think it's pretty solid little track. It's
Speaker 1: it's cool. There's a couple of little quirks and goofy
Speaker 1: things about it, but I feel like, you know, that's
Speaker 1: where me and you met. Yeah, yeah, that's that was
Speaker 1: That was first interview. So the yeah I played, I've
Speaker 1: probably played tournament golf out there like fifteen twenty times.
Speaker 1: It's a cool little course, great great value too. I
Speaker 1: think you can play two rounds out there with the
Speaker 1: replay rate for like one hundred and thirty bucks peak season,
Speaker 1: which you.
Speaker 3: Know the last two years it is poured. I haven't
Speaker 3: got to play that place firm and fast like you
Speaker 3: see it, you know, I mean, dang. When Stricker and
Speaker 3: Zach Johnson were winning out there like eight out of
Speaker 3: nine years, that place was so firm. It had like
Speaker 3: the longest drives on tour. You know, people were hitting
Speaker 3: at like three seventy and like three sixty on some
Speaker 3: of those holes. It was just rolling forever. And I
Speaker 3: was just like keeping my fingers crossed that this year
Speaker 3: that I can actually get a drive over three hundred
Speaker 3: yards maybe once.
Speaker 1: S So, what what's it like playing with like a
Speaker 1: guy like Gary Woodland, where like, I mean, like, what
Speaker 1: are you thinking about when when when you're out there
Speaker 1: and he was hitting at like wedge and you're hitting
Speaker 1: you know, a mid iron in.
Speaker 3: I think the crazy theist example maybe ever was I
Speaker 3: played with Bubba at the Players one year last year
Speaker 3: in a practice round and I remember getting up on
Speaker 3: what hole. It's like maybe whole six and it's a
Speaker 3: short hole. But I liked to hit driver up there
Speaker 3: because if I hit a good drive, I got a wedge.
Speaker 3: And you know, some of the guys were maybe laying
Speaker 3: back with irons or whatever, and I thought it was
Speaker 3: a good hole for me to you know, if I
Speaker 3: hit it good, it was kind of an advantage for
Speaker 3: me to get it up there. And so I was
Speaker 3: hitting driver one day in this practice round and I
Speaker 3: just like smoked a couple of them, and Bubba's like
Speaker 3: hand me the two iron, and he was hitting this
Speaker 3: like thirty yard like low fade, like getting the foot
Speaker 3: off the ground. You know, this thing is like going
Speaker 3: twenty yards past my driver. And I got out there
Speaker 3: and was like, are you kidding me? I was like,
Speaker 3: this guy's hitting iron past my driver. I was like,
Speaker 3: this is the most crazy thing ever. And I mean
Speaker 3: but I I mean, I see it all the time.
Speaker 3: Guy is just bombing at way past me. It's uh,
Speaker 3: but you know, I figure if I can make some
Speaker 3: putts and hit some good that long irons kind of
Speaker 3: makes up for it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a I mean lots of ways to
Speaker 1: skin a cat, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the three hundred yard drive helps skin it faster though,
Speaker 3: so I would think.
Speaker 1: So it is Bubba. Do you think he's the uh
Speaker 1: most like who's like the guy that you are most
Speaker 1: in kind of of like the way they play is he?
Speaker 1: Is he the number one guy that's like just kind
Speaker 1: of like from a just watching play like kind of shocking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think he plays it. You know, he
Speaker 3: just plays solely off feel.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: He hits all these wild shots and can do so
Speaker 3: much with the golf ball. It's pretty amazing to see.
Speaker 3: I mean, golly, hits it so far and he can
Speaker 3: hit it so high, and it's it's just pretty wild.
Speaker 3: It's it's pretty cool to see.
Speaker 1: All right. So let's get back on subjects here with
Speaker 1: golf courses. John and Zach love to hear both of
Speaker 1: you know some trips you got lined up that you're
Speaker 1: excited about for the summer.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm going back to Northern California.
Speaker 4: In at the end of April.
Speaker 2: I'm awfully excited to get back out there see what
Speaker 2: we can find to play in that area.
Speaker 4: I'm sure there's there's a few courses left.
Speaker 2: I'm finally going to to hit Ohio for a long
Speaker 2: overdue golf trip. We talked a little about this last time,
Speaker 2: but there are just so many courses out there that
Speaker 2: I'm dying to see you, So that'll be a good one.
Speaker 2: And then I have my my wife's big trip to
Speaker 2: Idaho this summer for her big race that I'm going
Speaker 2: to tag along for and play the curdling courses, play
Speaker 2: Rock Creek Cattle Company, which I really am looking for
Speaker 2: to see, and uh maybe go open to Canada and
Speaker 2: play vamp uh and then maybe do a little bit
Speaker 2: of a Western trip from there to play uh gods
Speaker 2: a Ranch and gamble stands in h in Washington. So
Speaker 2: that's one I'm really looking forward to this summer.
Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited. Uh. Next week I'm hopefully gonna go
Speaker 3: play the Valley Club, which is McKenzie jim down on
Speaker 3: the way to Los Angeles, and then I usually try
Speaker 3: and get over to l A CEC during the during
Speaker 3: the week sometimes, so those are anticipated. I love l A.
Speaker 3: I've played there a bunch, but it's always one that
Speaker 3: I like to go back to. And then, uh, I'm
Speaker 3: gonna go play at Everglades Club during the week of
Speaker 3: the Honda, So I'm excited to play that little seth
Speaker 3: Rainer track. I've heard it's a cool, little quirky little place,
Speaker 3: so I'm excited to see that. Uh. But some of
Speaker 3: the ones, you know, I've had a couple of people
Speaker 3: help out and try and get me out at Yaman's Hall,
Speaker 3: which I've wanted to see for a while. And then
Speaker 3: you know, I always talk about Essex and Myopia Hunt,
Speaker 3: so those are kind of the ones that I really
Speaker 3: want to see, I guess. And then jeez, well, I
Speaker 3: mean I haven't played obviously enough golf in San Francisco,
Speaker 3: so you know Cal Club and SF Club or two
Speaker 3: that I really want to go check out.
Speaker 4: Awesome, have you played Valley Club yet?
Speaker 3: I know I haven't. Now every year after, you know,
Speaker 3: I always drive the whole West coast, so we drive
Speaker 3: from Pebble down to LA and I mean we drive
Speaker 3: right past it, and I'm always like, next year we'll play,
Speaker 3: and then the next year passes and I'm like, we'll
Speaker 3: go next year.
Speaker 2: But that never happened so good. You're gonna love it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a lot of fictions to play.
Speaker 2: It's just beautiful, you'll love it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: That So where do you guys stand, uh, L a
Speaker 1: CEC versus riv.
Speaker 3: I'm I'm a huge LA fan, so I mean, it's
Speaker 3: not even an argument for me. But that's that's just
Speaker 3: how I fail.
Speaker 2: I guess. I think Riviera is a terrisfic golf course
Speaker 2: that would happily play anytime at the mill in l A.
Speaker 2: I think it's one of the I think it's rightfully
Speaker 2: considered one of the top top fifty golf courses in
Speaker 2: the United States. I think it's easily worthy of that designation.
Speaker 2: But to me, L a c C is another is
Speaker 2: in another universe. H L a c C is one
Speaker 2: of the ten best courses that I've ever played. I
Speaker 2: think it is phenomenal in every respect. I am desperate
Speaker 2: to get back out there and see the newly renovated
Speaker 2: South course, but the North course at L a cc
Speaker 2: is is top ten in the country for me as
Speaker 2: far as I'm concerned, I just think it's amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly how I feel. I mean, riv is awesome.
Speaker 3: It's really really good. But like like John said, La
Speaker 3: is just it's on a It's in a different league.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: And I actually got to go out and check out
Speaker 3: the renovated South Course when they were building it last
Speaker 3: year with Jeff Shappelford, and he took me around the
Speaker 3: place and showed me all the plans and stuff like that,
Speaker 3: and we went kind of hole by hole. And that
Speaker 3: place is going to be really really cool. I think
Speaker 3: that will be, you know, on that list of best
Speaker 3: thirty six whole clubs because I think it'll be such
Speaker 3: a perfect secondary course. It'll be it's a shorter track
Speaker 3: and it's going to be really fun and a lot
Speaker 3: of you know, different looks. So I'm really excited to
Speaker 3: check that out.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. So let's get to some Twitter question here
Speaker 1: before I let you guys go. So Chester wants to
Speaker 1: know what's the best golf course under sixty eight hundred
Speaker 1: yards from the tips.
Speaker 2: Easy Cipher's point, yeahs, I don't know how.
Speaker 3: I don't know how long Fisher's Island is, but Fishers
Speaker 3: has got to be kind of yeah, Fishers has got
Speaker 3: to be in that in that argument as well.
Speaker 1: Akers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Fisher really good and there's no way Fishers is
Speaker 2: over sixty eight hundred yards.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Shore Akers is under sixty eight. That's another great course.
Speaker 1: Lots of great golf courses under sixty eight hundred yards.
Speaker 1: I think got out in Philly.
Speaker 2: To be honest with you, I bet your most of
Speaker 2: the Mcreiner courses that we know and love are under
Speaker 2: sixty eight hundred yards. I mean, I bet you mid
Speaker 2: eighty percent of them are under sixty eight. And by
Speaker 2: the way, as I'm looking at my little iPad right now,
Speaker 2: Somerset Hills, which we all love, is sixty seven fifty
Speaker 2: six from the tips, so that should be on that
Speaker 2: list as well.
Speaker 3: Yep, for sure.
Speaker 1: I think you know, I think yardage is so overrated
Speaker 1: when it comes to difficulty, and I think we're seeing
Speaker 1: it more and more, like to a certain extent, like
Speaker 1: it's all based off of conditioning. If it's firm and fast,
Speaker 1: and you probably can attest to this more as Zach,
Speaker 1: But that's the ultimate defense I imagine for a golf course.
Speaker 1: When it's soft, these guys will tear it up, you know,
Speaker 1: and you'll tear it up for godsss.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like a perfect example of that is like the Utah Championship.
Speaker 3: You know, they had it at Thanksgiving Point, which is
Speaker 3: like this really long golf course, like around eight thousand yards,
Speaker 3: but it was like it was so firm and it's
Speaker 3: in the summer, and I kept trying to tell the
Speaker 3: guys like that set up the tournament, and that run
Speaker 3: the thing that I said, listen, guys, it does matter
Speaker 3: how firm this place is. I mean how long this
Speaker 3: place is. If it's this firm, guys are going to
Speaker 3: be hitting it four hundred yards and you got it.
Speaker 3: You know, the ball's rolling forever. So yardage I think,
Speaker 3: honestly you can kind of throw it out the window
Speaker 3: because Buck you said, if you get it on a
Speaker 3: firm day, you can get the ball rolling so far
Speaker 3: that you know, yardages don't really mean all that much.
Speaker 3: And then the second point he said, if it gets soft,
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter how long the golf course is. Guys
Speaker 3: are going to play good when you can aim at
Speaker 3: the stick and hit it on a number and it's
Speaker 3: going to stop on that number. These guys out here
Speaker 3: are so good that it doesn't matter. You could have
Speaker 3: six hundred yard par fours and guys are going to
Speaker 3: make pars because they can hit their third shot to
Speaker 3: ten feet and make the piot, So its yardage I
Speaker 3: don't think really matters at the end of the day.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it's interesting you say that, Zach,
Speaker 2: because from my perspective as somebody who is not nearly
Speaker 2: the caliber of golfer that that's who you are. When
Speaker 2: it's firm and fast, it actually allows me, no matter
Speaker 2: how long the course has been playing, and I'm not
Speaker 2: a long hitter by any means, it sort of neutralizes
Speaker 2: that that advantage that raw length gives and allows me
Speaker 2: to play with guys who hit it much much further
Speaker 2: than I do, because it brings all the other elements
Speaker 2: of my game into play and I can get some
Speaker 2: back with you know, creativity, a good player on the
Speaker 2: greens or making putts, whereas if it's just a long,
Speaker 2: stretched out soft course, I'm at a natural disadvantage if
Speaker 2: I'm just hitting hybrids into every green where my opponent's
Speaker 2: hitting seven irons or eight irons or wedges, and you know,
Speaker 2: the software of the course, the easier it's going to
Speaker 2: be to dial in those yardages, like.
Speaker 4: You were saying.
Speaker 2: So I just for a player of my caliber or
Speaker 2: lack of caliber. I guess it's it's always nice when
Speaker 2: that distance issue is sort of negated by a really
Speaker 2: well conditioned, firm and fast course.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Furman Fast is the way to go.
Speaker 2: And by the way, on our list of under sixty
Speaker 2: eight hundred yard courses too that I feel compelled to
Speaker 2: mention Eastward Hoe on the Cape up in Massachusetts, which
Speaker 2: is one of my all time favorites. Max is out
Speaker 2: at something like sixty three hundred yards and it is
Speaker 2: as good course as you'll ever want to play, So
Speaker 2: that's a great one. And then Crystal Downs is another
Speaker 2: one that I was thinking of, but I think it's
Speaker 2: about sixty five hundred yards from the back, which is
Speaker 2: easually one of the best courses in the Country's amazing
Speaker 2: when you look at how many of these truly classic
Speaker 2: courses are under sixty eight hundred yards that I think
Speaker 2: are universally loved and appreciated by all caliber players. So
Speaker 2: it really does say something I think about distance and
Speaker 2: how its impact is so overrated by so many people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, sometimes you get some of those courses
Speaker 3: that are show like that, but they got cross bunkers
Speaker 3: and they got hazards in the right places. That force
Speaker 3: you to make decisions like do I take this hazard
Speaker 3: on with a driver or a three wood and bring
Speaker 3: you know, big numbers into play, or do I just
Speaker 3: lay back and have a mid iron in, which you
Speaker 3: know that that does the whole thing of negating what
Speaker 3: a total yardage of a golf course is, because if
Speaker 3: you're going to lay back with a three iron or
Speaker 3: a hybrid off the t and take a six iron in,
Speaker 3: that's making those three hundred and eighty five to four
Speaker 3: hundred and forty yard holds into long car floors, you
Speaker 3: know what I mean, Because if you're if you're hitting
Speaker 3: mid iron in, it doesn't matter what you hit off
Speaker 3: the key, you're still hitting a mid iron in into
Speaker 3: the green. So I think that's where those guys were
Speaker 3: so good back then at you know, strategically placing the
Speaker 3: hazards in a right spot. That makes you think because now,
Speaker 3: I'll you know a lot of the times you just
Speaker 3: see a couple of hazards on. You know, you see
Speaker 3: a bunker on the left and bunker on the right,
Speaker 3: and you can hit it as far as you want.
Speaker 3: That's straight, and that shortened the golf hole, you know,
Speaker 3: and the guys you know, you know, the driver is
Speaker 3: one of the easiest clubs in the bag to hit
Speaker 3: now because of how forgiving it is, and you know
Speaker 3: how good the balls are and everything like that. Guys
Speaker 3: can hit it long and straight. You know, they get
Speaker 3: you know, when you throw something in the middle of
Speaker 3: the fairway or something that you kind of have to
Speaker 3: think about. That's when golf gets a little harder and
Speaker 3: gets a little you know, tougher to think about shots.
Speaker 4: Yeah, great point.
Speaker 1: I agree. I had Michael Clayton on the podcast a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, and you know, he was spectacular
Speaker 1: and he you know, he's got this old school golf
Speaker 1: you know, kind of vibe to him. And the thing
Speaker 1: he thought that was just so criminal about the professional
Speaker 1: game is that, you know, he thinks everybody should have
Speaker 1: to carry a two iron, whether they use it or not,
Speaker 1: they should have to know how to hit a two
Speaker 1: iron because what technology's done has decreased the skill out
Speaker 1: of the game.
Speaker 3: I was talking to Jeff Ogilvie the other day, and
Speaker 3: you know, he was talking to my court a little bit.
Speaker 3: They were talking about about tennis and how in some
Speaker 3: of the Grand Slams and you know, the big tennis
Speaker 3: tournaments they actually dial back to golf the tennis ball
Speaker 3: and make the court a little softer and stuff like that.
Speaker 3: And he said they do basically the same thing in
Speaker 3: in the professional game in golf. You know, the courts
Speaker 3: is they're so wet most of the time, and they
Speaker 3: don't like to see the ball running and rolling and
Speaker 3: bouncing and you know, getting those big hops on the greens.
Speaker 3: They like to see you know, it stin back and
Speaker 3: they like to see it be able to you know,
Speaker 3: stop it next to the hole that they've kind of
Speaker 3: you know, made the PGA tooler golf and you know
Speaker 3: golf in general kind of like slow court tennis to
Speaker 3: where it doesn't it kind of affects the game and
Speaker 3: doesn't make it as fun or as skillful. You know,
Speaker 3: you just kind of that's hit it at a target
Speaker 3: and it stops next to the hole, and that's all
Speaker 3: you have to do. You know, sometimes when you go
Speaker 3: over to Scotland and stuff like that and you play
Speaker 3: the ground game and you have to really know how
Speaker 3: you know, how a ball is going to react and
Speaker 3: how far you want this thing to run out. You've
Speaker 3: got to use different contours and different slopes, that's when
Speaker 3: golf is really fun and more challenging, I think, than
Speaker 3: just having to hit it one hundred and forty yards
Speaker 3: and it's going to stop it at one hundred and
Speaker 3: forty if you hit at that distance. So I think
Speaker 3: I agree with him. You know, I think skill has
Speaker 3: been taken a little bit out of the game. Not
Speaker 3: to say the people out here aren't extremely talented and
Speaker 3: extremely good, but it's just a different game.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: You just kind of hit it as far straight as
Speaker 3: you can and then hit it straight at the flag,
Speaker 3: you know, ninety percent of the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just to give you the other perspective again,
Speaker 2: like Zach said, you know, when you're talking about a
Speaker 2: higher handicap or like like I am. I mean, certainly
Speaker 2: I can't master my yardages.
Speaker 4: Like like you or Zach can.
Speaker 2: But so the more the golf course rewards that style
Speaker 2: of golf, the bigger the differential gets between you know,
Speaker 2: me playing to a six and the guy playing to
Speaker 2: a three, and me and you two, and guys at
Speaker 2: your level where you can't really play a functional match
Speaker 2: on that kind of course. When when the skill level
Speaker 2: diverges to a certain point, but the more you bring
Speaker 2: in that ground game, the more you bring in the
Speaker 2: ability to be creative and be strategic and do things
Speaker 2: that aren't necessarily entirely physical, the more fun the game become.
Speaker 2: In my view again, and that's just the perspective of
Speaker 2: a of a of a mediocre hack, but that's how
Speaker 2: I feel.
Speaker 1: You know, John, You've put me in Zach's skill level
Speaker 1: way too much for me not to say from.
Speaker 2: My perspective, From my perspective looking up at you guys,
Speaker 2: you mean either one of you is gonna kick my
Speaker 2: ass the exact say, so you are.
Speaker 1: Level, there's a whole there's a whole other level that
Speaker 1: he's on that is so much different than what I'm on.
Speaker 1: So's you know where they're.
Speaker 3: All remind you know where all this kind of takes
Speaker 3: me back to.
Speaker 2: To like a perfect place.
Speaker 3: For us to go play with the National You know,
Speaker 3: we could all go out there and figure out a
Speaker 3: nice game to play, and we're all going to go
Speaker 3: out and make a couple of birdies. You know, some
Speaker 3: of them might be made in different ways. You know,
Speaker 3: maybe I drive number two. But you know, then we
Speaker 3: get to a short part three where you know, you
Speaker 3: don't have to hit it two hundred and twenty yards
Speaker 3: on a rope. You know, you just got to be
Speaker 3: creative and get it in the right spot and kind
Speaker 3: of funnel a shot in certain places like that. That's
Speaker 3: why National and some of the steth rain nur SEV
Speaker 3: McDonald's courses are so good in my opinion, because you
Speaker 3: can take a guy that's a seven handicap, and you
Speaker 3: can take a guy that's a scratch player, and you
Speaker 3: can take a professional golfer and you could all go
Speaker 3: out there and have fun and enjoy it to where
Speaker 3: you could go out to a you know, a championship track,
Speaker 3: you know, a place like Baltusrol, and I'm probably gonna
Speaker 3: be the only one making a lot of birdies out
Speaker 3: there if I play good. You know, it's just it's
Speaker 3: just it's just a hard golf course. Somebody that's a
Speaker 3: six handicap that doesn't hit it three hundred dollars, it's
Speaker 3: going to have a really hard time out there.
Speaker 2: I can verify that firsthand. Babus Roll crushed me and
Speaker 2: a player like you, Zach would beat me by fifty
Speaker 2: at Ballus Roll and I would have a miserable time.
Speaker 2: Uh And we couldn't have any kind of functional match,
Speaker 2: and to me, that's tragedy, especially given the match how
Speaker 2: the roots the game. But you're right. At a place
Speaker 2: like National, even even carrying my six and even hitting
Speaker 2: the ball much shorter than you guys do, I can
Speaker 2: get around that and I can score it National because
Speaker 2: I can use the parts of my game that are
Speaker 2: strong to get the ball in the hole. At a
Speaker 2: place like baldis role. If I can't hit it as
Speaker 2: far as I need to, I have no option. It's
Speaker 2: either make the carry or don't. It's either hit the
Speaker 2: fairway or don't. It's either hit the green or don't.
Speaker 2: And if I and if any of those don't happen,
Speaker 2: I'm making bogie worse. Where a National, I don't need
Speaker 2: to hit it two hundred and fifty yards to make
Speaker 2: a par, you know, I don't. I don't need to
Speaker 2: hit every green in regulation and two putt just to
Speaker 2: get around the course. I can. I can do other
Speaker 2: things that don't require physical skills that I don't have,
Speaker 2: And to me, that is really what makes those courses
Speaker 2: a treasure to all kinds of players.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I agree, that's that's the.
Speaker 1: Best thing I played. I played with a guy who
Speaker 1: plays on a web tour, and we've got a foursome
Speaker 1: that we play a couple of times in the summer
Speaker 1: and it's you know, three really good mid end players
Speaker 1: and him and we played Olympia Fields North, so US
Speaker 1: open course and he shot sixty eight and then we
Speaker 1: had like seventy five, seventy seven, eighty two, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's like a perfect example. Then we go out
Speaker 1: to Sand Valley and it's super playable, you know, where
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of options in play. He ended up
Speaker 1: beating us, but it was a lot closer than the
Speaker 1: drubbing he gave us an Olympia Fields North.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean I went in when I wanted, When my
Speaker 3: first you know, inklings and ideas of the Buck Club
Speaker 3: came around, I wanted to build like a championship style
Speaker 3: track that was like meant for a scratch golfer, and
Speaker 3: you know, it was really hard and he was going
Speaker 3: to beat you up and you had to play really good.
Speaker 3: And then my kind of whole world flipped around when
Speaker 3: I saw some places like National and I saw, you know,
Speaker 3: some of these unbelievable just classic little gems that are
Speaker 3: quirky and fun and sporty, and you know they're they're
Speaker 3: not long yardages. It's just so much more fun to
Speaker 3: play a golf course that anybody in your forsom can play,
Speaker 3: no matter if they're, like you know, a long handicap
Speaker 3: or a scratch player. It's just more fun for everybody
Speaker 3: when you build a course like that that everyone can
Speaker 3: get it around and make birdies and have fun right.
Speaker 2: Right, all right right to me, that's the biggest difference, Zach.
Speaker 2: It's just it tends to be less fun for me. Look,
Speaker 2: every golf course is going to have holes where if
Speaker 2: I'm playing the same keys you guys are, that a
Speaker 2: golfer like me won't be able to reach in regulation.
Speaker 2: So to a certain extent, physical abilities are going to
Speaker 2: limit what a golfer like me can do on those courses.
Speaker 2: What I don't like is when a golf course demands
Speaker 2: it consistently a whole after whole after whole physical skill
Speaker 2: that me and twenty of other golfers don't have. Give
Speaker 2: me a way to get the ball in the hole,
Speaker 2: even if it's a goofy way, even if it's a
Speaker 2: way that might not be obvious that I have to
Speaker 2: puzzle out and really think it over, but give me
Speaker 2: an out. And that's why I think all three of
Speaker 2: us love Stephen McDonalds so much, because he was sure
Speaker 2: of the grandfather of that idea, you know, give everybody
Speaker 2: away to get the ball in the hole and have fun.
Speaker 2: And I just again, I think the classic courses do
Speaker 2: have so much better than many of the modern ones.
Speaker 1: All right, So we're we're running up on a lot
Speaker 1: of time here, so you know, and the so everybody
Speaker 1: gets through to the end. I mean, we're gonna, we're
Speaker 1: gonna call it. We're gonna have one last question here.
Speaker 1: So Andrew had a question for Zach and it was,
Speaker 1: you know, regarding your favorite course in the Northeast amateur circuit.
Speaker 1: And I'll just open it up with John. You know,
Speaker 1: favorite kind of prestigious Northeast club side of McDonald We're
Speaker 1: gonna put a kibosh on McDonald and.
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know, like any club in the Northeast.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna adapt. His His question was
Speaker 1: for you your favorite course on the amateur circuit.
Speaker 3: Oh, oh, man, you know, wanta moist it up in
Speaker 3: up in Rhode Island. It's the Old Donald Ross Course,
Speaker 3: but I mean, the thing's on like one hundred acres.
Speaker 3: It's teeney, but it's so fun and it's really really cool.
Speaker 3: I would say that. Or Sonny Hannah that's another chilly
Speaker 3: that's pretty good. Those are both really really cool.
Speaker 2: And then I've never I've never played the Northeast amateur circuits.
Speaker 2: But uh, I'll give you a couple of my favorites
Speaker 2: real quick. It would be going south to north. It
Speaker 2: would be Somerset Hills Sweepy Hollow, which I love over
Speaker 2: that to McDonald so cross that one off. And then
Speaker 2: up in Boston. Zach mentioned these two places earlier, and
Speaker 2: it's kind of interesting that you haven't played in me
Speaker 2: because he's in for a treat. My Opion Club is
Speaker 2: one of my favorite clubs anywhere, and its neighbor, Essex
Speaker 2: County Club is also one of my favorites. Just too
Speaker 2: incredible places.
Speaker 1: All right, well we're we'll wrap it up there and uh, Zach,
Speaker 1: good luck this week.
Speaker 3: Man.
Speaker 2: Uh, you know, thank you guys for having me.
Speaker 3: It's fun to fun to talk about this. We should
Speaker 3: do it more often.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll have to do some sort of like a
Speaker 1: quarterly check in or something. See what everybody like. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well and then we'll have to get the games that
Speaker 1: we talk about set up one of these days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we we should do it at National.
Speaker 3: I think that's a good spot.
Speaker 2: You know, I would happily, I would happily get beat
Speaker 2: by you guys as National or anywhere else for that matter,
Speaker 2: but National or Summerset, I think I think those are
Speaker 2: the two where we gotta we gotta do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I've never been to New York, so I need to,
Speaker 1: you know, get to New York City for more than
Speaker 1: just I've never been to New York City for anything,
Speaker 1: and it's kind of crazy.
Speaker 3: Actually well yeah, well that's a that'd be a good
Speaker 3: way to enter in there, so figure.
Speaker 1: All right, Well thanks a lot, guys. Uh it was
Speaker 1: fun and uh we'll uh, we'll talk to you guys soon.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're in a strate.
Speaker 4: This was Jack.
Speaker 2: Thanks