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Speaker 1: Pushing.

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Speaker 2: I'm Khalidea Brad Muhammad.

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Speaker 1: I'm Ben Austen. We're two best friends, one black, one white.

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Speaker 2: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is

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Speaker 2: some of my best friends are.

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Speaker 1: Some of my best friends are dot dot dot. In

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Speaker 1: this show, we wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities

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Speaker 1: of a deeply divided and unequal country. And today we

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Speaker 1: are back. After taking a little break in production, we

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Speaker 1: have been recording some great episodes for you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, we are coming to you live from

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Speaker 2: the Chicago Humanity's Festival, live live live with former congressmen

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Speaker 2: and current Minnesota Attorney General Keith Ellison.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, we talked to Ellison about prosecuting the police

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Speaker 1: officers who killed George Floyd Man. He was murdered almost

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Speaker 1: exactly three years ago. We also talked to Ellison about

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Speaker 1: his new book, Break the Wheel, Ending the Cycle of

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Speaker 1: police violence. We are so excited to share this conversation

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Speaker 1: with you today and also to have a live show.

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Speaker 2: Yes, let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Your pin, Daddy's coming.

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Speaker 1: Our theme song that you just heard is Little Lily

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Speaker 1: by Avery R. Young and he was just named the

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Speaker 1: poet laureate, the first poet laureate of Chicago.

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Speaker 3: So just gotta shout that out.

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Speaker 2: So we are really excited today to have our guests

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Speaker 2: with us on stage here in Chicago. Our hometown brother

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Speaker 2: Keith Ellison.

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Speaker 3: Thank you. Glad to be with you, guys.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, great to be with you.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to get started, and I just want

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Speaker 2: to say that we often bring our best friends on

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Speaker 2: and while I can't claim that we're best friends, we

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Speaker 2: have met each other a.

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Speaker 3: Couple of times. Not yet. We're working on it. We

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Speaker 3: get there, we get there.

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Speaker 2: So I wanted to remind you that a few years

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Speaker 2: ago in New Jersey, in an organization called Building One America

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Speaker 2: brought together a bunch of progressives around the country. We

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Speaker 2: were in South Jersey pretty not just a good place.

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Speaker 2: But it's great to be back with you. A lot

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Speaker 2: has changed for you, and in many ways, that's what

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Speaker 2: we're here to talk about.

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Speaker 3: Well, a lot has changed and a lot of stayed

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Speaker 3: the same. I mean that some of the fights are

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Speaker 3: still going on. We're trying to equalize power. We're trying

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Speaker 3: to get people who don't have any power a little

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Speaker 3: bit more say so in their own lives. And I

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Speaker 3: can tell you this, moving from Congress to the Attorney

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Speaker 3: General's office is lack a dream because what it would

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Speaker 3: take a year or two to do, we can do

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Speaker 3: in a week at the AG's office. So it's great

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Speaker 3: to see you again.

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Speaker 1: Man, Yeah, I like that. Khalil said that South Jersey

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Speaker 1: was a nondescript player. So Khalil and I both grew

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Speaker 1: up here in Chicago on the South Side in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighties the Bears, and you grew up in Detroit

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Speaker 1: mostly in the seventies. How did that shape your thinking? Like,

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Speaker 1: how how has that formed who you are?

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Speaker 3: So look, Chicago and Detroit have a lot in common.

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Speaker 3: They both are destinations in the Great Migration. If you

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Speaker 3: talk to any black person and a whole lot of

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Speaker 3: white people, their grandparents are from Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Georgia,

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Speaker 3: and folks came up to Chicago to work in meatpacking whatever,

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Speaker 3: and they came to Detroit to work on the auto plants.

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Speaker 3: Both my parents have Southern roots. My mother's from Louisiana,

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Speaker 3: my father's family's from Georgia. He was born in Detroit,

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Speaker 3: but his father was born in rural Georgia, so that

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Speaker 3: up south kind of is here. I mean with the

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Speaker 3: best blues and barbecue you can get in the world,

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Speaker 3: it's probably in Chicago, right. And so you know, I

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Speaker 3: was born in nineteen sixty three. That's the year of

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Speaker 3: the March on Washington. Earlier that June MegaR Evers was

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Speaker 3: shot down and killed. Earlier in that year, John F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy said that the civil rights movement was based on

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Speaker 3: a moral issue, and he gave this I don't know

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Speaker 3: if any of you all remember or know this speech

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Speaker 3: where he gave this speech and said, if any one

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Speaker 3: of us had to live the life of I think

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Speaker 3: he used the term negro, you know who would want

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Speaker 3: to do it. You know, we say we're a country

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Speaker 3: where there's no second class citizens except the Negro. We

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Speaker 3: say we're a country that where everybody can stand on

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Speaker 3: their own two feet and rise to the full measure

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Speaker 3: of their talent, except the Negro. He has this refrain.

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Speaker 3: Later on in that year, John F. Kennedy shot down murdered.

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Speaker 3: So that is what I was born into. And I

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Speaker 3: wasn't aware of it at the time, but maybe my

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Speaker 3: body felt it. I can tell you this. On the

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Speaker 3: issues of policing, I absolutely remember living on Eileen near

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Speaker 3: Outer Drive and looking out of the window and remembering

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Speaker 3: that my dad was out in the out in Detroit

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Speaker 3: trying to help people. Use my dad as a physician, right,

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Speaker 3: and he was attending to people who were in the riots, the.

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Speaker 2: Detroita Detroit riot nineteen sixty seven, Right.

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Speaker 3: I remember it. My brother remembers it, and I said,

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Speaker 3: and we remember military vehicles going by. And I asked

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Speaker 3: my brother why would military vehicles be going by? He said, well,

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Speaker 3: the eight Mile Armory was only less than a mile away.

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Speaker 3: And so I remember that. And I remember growing up

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Speaker 3: in Detroit as the auto plants were just abandoning the city.

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Speaker 3: And a lot of people wanted to say it's because

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Speaker 3: African Americans were not good at leadership. But the real

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Speaker 3: truth is for GM and Chrysler figured they could make

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Speaker 3: it cheaper elsewhere. So I mean, does I get to

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Speaker 3: the question, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious, did this Did you lose any white friends

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Speaker 2: and that migration out of Detroit?

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Speaker 3: You know, not really, you know not. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: a funny thing. You know, Detroit is an interesting city

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Speaker 3: along that lines, Remember Eminem comes from Detroit. Yep. Eight

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Speaker 3: Mile is a real street. In Detroit. And it also

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Speaker 3: you know, kid Rocks also from Detroit. So in Detroit

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Speaker 3: you have a lot of interracial cooperation, and then you

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Speaker 3: got and then it is a city of racing, class

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Speaker 3: violence too. You got this complicated weird mixture stew gumbo

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Speaker 3: in Detroit. Whereas some of your best friends are white,

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Speaker 3: some of your and some and some guys who chased

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Speaker 3: you across eight Mile Road and you were running for

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Speaker 3: the fear of your life were also white. There's some

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Speaker 3: black folks I ran into who made me a little

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Speaker 3: worried about my safety too. So you know, so, uh,

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Speaker 3: that's Detroit for you.

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Speaker 2: There are two things you did not mention about Detroit

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Speaker 2: and Chicago that they have in common. The first thing

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Speaker 2: is that brothers were for coats in both cities, don't

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Speaker 2: they everywhere, which which I have not seen everybody in

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Speaker 2: any other city. I lived in Philadelphia, New York, Boston,

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Speaker 2: you name it.

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Speaker 3: They have no style. Man.

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Speaker 2: So, aside from the fir Coats, is also the nation

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Speaker 2: of Islam. So the nation of Islam is born in Detroit,

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Speaker 2: grows out of the great migration. My great grandfather moves

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Speaker 2: there in the nineteen twenties, raises his family eventually moved

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Speaker 2: to Chicago. Talking about Elijah Mohammack. So talk about your

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Speaker 2: own Muslim roots, how you become a Muslim and break

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Speaker 2: through these barriers and politics in Minnesota in particular.

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Speaker 3: Well, the people who introduced Islam to me were from

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Speaker 3: the NI. A good friend of mine who's just just

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Speaker 3: went to his reward. His name was Abdullah bel Amme

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Speaker 3: and he was about six foot five, but I bet

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Speaker 3: you he weighed one hundred and forty pounds and he

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Speaker 3: was the Emam. And I first, you know, heard about Islam,

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Speaker 3: reading about people like Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali. I

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Speaker 3: first met. The first person who was told me about

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Speaker 3: Islam was a guy who was a Libyan student foreign

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Speaker 3: exchange student. One day, I was at Wayne State University

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Speaker 3: and we were studying calculus and he on a Friday afternoon,

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Speaker 3: he's like, hey, man, I gotta go. What do you

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Speaker 3: mean you gotta go? Well, I got to go. I

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Speaker 3: mean it's time for me to do something. I said, Well,

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Speaker 3: he said, why don't you come with me? I said, fine,

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Speaker 3: I got nothing else to do. I walk up and

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Speaker 3: there's all these shoes everywhere. Well, you got to take

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Speaker 3: off your shoes and we walk into the room and

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Speaker 3: there's sheets across the carpet. We got to sit on

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Speaker 3: the floor, so I do. And I heard a message

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Speaker 3: that stuck with me until this very moment.

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Speaker 1: What was the message that stuck with you?

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Speaker 3: The message of Mohammad that you know. His message was

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Speaker 3: for the poor, the black, the racially sidelined. It was

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Speaker 3: a message of human oneness, of the unity of all humanity.

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Speaker 3: And hearing stories about Bilal, who was a black man

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Speaker 3: in servitude, who was freed by his belief in that message.

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Speaker 3: And look, I grew up Catholic, right, everybody in my

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Speaker 3: family's Catholic. We're from Louere, Louisiana Catholics, right, even though

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Speaker 3: I had all that Catholic training, I this is the message.

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Speaker 3: They clicked in my head and it made sense to me,

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Speaker 3: and it makes sense to me until this very second.

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Speaker 3: In fact, we just ended Ramadan. And the interesting thing

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Speaker 3: about me being a Muslim, when I ran for the

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Speaker 3: State Legislature, I would fast for Ramadan and I'd go

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Speaker 3: to pray and nobody cared, like nobody cared at all.

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Speaker 3: But when I ran for Congress, it was this big, giant,

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Speaker 3: humongous international incident and I just I always ponder why,

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Speaker 3: you know, and it's kind of like, well, you know,

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Speaker 3: it's five years after nine to eleven, and people didn't

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Speaker 3: know what it meant to have a Muslim in the

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Speaker 3: US Congress, and they wanted to know. And some people

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Speaker 3: entertained their worst fears, and some of them, all of them,

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Speaker 3: nearly were many of them were irrational fears.

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Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah, thank you for telling us that. And

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Speaker 1: certainly my buddy here Khalil Muhammad, after nine to eleven

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Speaker 1: has been stopped at many airport, Thank you for telling

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Speaker 1: us that. And I want to ask you another question.

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Speaker 1: Why the law? So I think I think your grandfather

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Speaker 1: is a leader in the NAACP, And so why do

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Speaker 1: you go into the law and why civil rights law?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, I I majored in economics because my

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Speaker 3: dad ninety four years young, still grouchy and opinionated. He

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Speaker 3: always was like, well follow the money. You know, if

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Speaker 3: you figure out the economics, you can figure out a

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Speaker 3: lot of things. Right, So I studied that, and uh,

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Speaker 3: but then when I was at Wayne State, I started

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Speaker 3: asking myself, what is what do you do with an

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Speaker 3: economics degree? I had no idea, Now what I've found

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Speaker 3: out since is there's a lot you could do. But

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Speaker 3: I didn't know anything except for being a college teacher.

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Speaker 3: So I took the lside, you know. And so I

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Speaker 3: thought it would be the right thing for me because

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Speaker 3: my mother always told me, you know, you are so argumentative,

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Speaker 3: you should maybe be a lawyer. And so those two things,

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Speaker 3: that family background and just you know what God made

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Speaker 3: me good at, which is uss and with folks, sent

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Speaker 3: me in a particular direction to why civil rights? You know,

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Speaker 3: you know it's funny, man. I always feel like I

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Speaker 3: was destined to it because when I got out of

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Speaker 3: law school, I had a wife's two children and some

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Speaker 3: student loan debt and I needed to make a little

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Speaker 3: bit of money. I was twenty five years old and

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Speaker 3: I was trying to figure out and I got to

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Speaker 3: offer to go work with this huge white law firm

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Speaker 3: downtown Minneapolis.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking about mid nineteen seventies or early ladies.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about nineteen ninety and so it was so

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Speaker 3: that somebody basically said, would you go to this silk

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Speaker 3: stocking law firm? And I was like, what are they paying?

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Speaker 3: You know? So I ended up there and I started

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Speaker 3: doing all the pro bono that I could wed a

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Speaker 3: We did a death row case in Union Paris, Louisiana,

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Speaker 3: got a man named Albert Barrell not only out of

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Speaker 3: off death row, but actually exonerated. So that was a

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Speaker 3: wonderful thing. And I started doing all this stuff with

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Speaker 3: landlord tenant stuff and then you know, look, my heart

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Speaker 3: wasn't there. So within three years I applied for a

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Speaker 3: job to be the director of the Legal Rights Center,

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Speaker 3: which is essentially a nonprofit engine law office. Got the

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Speaker 3: job and have a look back.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's great. Well, listen, we are excited to have

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Speaker 2: a conversation that takes us from your origin story to

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Speaker 2: the moment that has redefined the history of prosecutustion of

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Speaker 2: police officers. We're going to take a quick break and

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Speaker 2: we'll pick that up after the break.

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Speaker 3: We'll be right back, y'all.

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Speaker 1: So I think people might know that Keith as the

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Speaker 1: State's Attorney of Minnesota, tried and convicted Derek Chalvin, who

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Speaker 1: is the police officer who knelt on George Floyd's neck

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Speaker 1: and killed him and won a conviction. And we want

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Speaker 1: you to take us back to that moment and maybe

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Speaker 1: can you describe what Minneapolis was like in the aftermath

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Speaker 1: of George Floyd's death.

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Speaker 3: Well, let me just say slightly before that tragic occurred,

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Speaker 3: you should know that, you know, I love Minneapolis, and

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Speaker 3: Minneapolis has a certain sense of itself every he does, right.

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Speaker 3: We cling to Hubert H. Humphrey and how he was

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Speaker 3: he in nineteen forty seventy at the Philadelphia Democratic Convention,

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Speaker 3: he said, we have to walk out of the dark

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Speaker 3: night of states rights into the bright sunshine of human rights.

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Speaker 3: And we were so proud that we passed one of

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Speaker 3: the first we say, the first I don't know if

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Speaker 3: it's true. I never researched it. Human rights municipal ordinance

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Speaker 3: in the country. And how there were all these and

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Speaker 3: how we're this city that you know, really embraces the

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Speaker 3: diverse gifts of the population.

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Speaker 2: It's like one of the largest Somalai populations.

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Speaker 3: Right right, and we pride ourselves on how, you know,

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Speaker 3: new Americans come there, you know, like the Somali community,

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Speaker 3: the among community, the kur In community were from Burma,

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Speaker 3: and we think of ourselves this way. And there's this

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Speaker 3: I don't know if y'all ever heard this, but Minnesotans

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Speaker 3: will say Minnesota nice because we're so nice. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if they're that nice think of themselves as being

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Speaker 3: very nice right now. That is and I don't say

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Speaker 3: this in a derogatory way at all. That is a myth, right,

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Speaker 3: And it's not that it's not true. It's just that

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Speaker 3: it's not the only truth. Right. It's not that it's

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Speaker 3: not true, because people really are good and decent. But

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Speaker 3: there is another side. We did have restrictive covenants in

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Speaker 3: like literally thousands of homes, you know, two hours away

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Speaker 3: the Duluth lynching. You did have three black men lynched

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Speaker 3: at a light pole in Duluth. We do have in

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Speaker 3: man Cato. There was the largest mass hanging of Dakota

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Speaker 3: people in the history of the country, the largest mass

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Speaker 3: hanging in man Cato of the indigenous community. So these

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Speaker 3: things occurred. So we're not hypocrites. It's just like people

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Speaker 3: all over the world, we emphasize the positive. George Floyd

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Speaker 3: caused Minnesotans to really reflect on how we might not

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Speaker 3: be somehow different along racial lines than the rest of

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Speaker 3: the country. And I think people are still trying to

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Speaker 3: figure out what does this all mean and how it's

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Speaker 3: not an anomaly. And there were a lot of things

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Speaker 3: that happened that would have told us that this easily

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Speaker 3: could happen here. And so that that's something that I

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Speaker 3: think is important, because if you think you're an American

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Speaker 3: community that's somehow immune from race class violence in America,

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Speaker 3: you're not. It's closer than you think it is, and

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Speaker 3: you better do something about it before you have a

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Speaker 3: George Floyd incident.

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Speaker 2: So well, I'm gonna say so. I mean, one of

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Speaker 2: the things that you're talking about is that Minnesota has

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Speaker 2: a reputation for being a progressive city and having family there.

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Speaker 2: I've been to Minnesota many times. There's a lot of like,

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Speaker 2: you know, there are these pockets of America where people

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Speaker 2: are like, there's lots of interracial families. You know, diversity

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Speaker 2: is celebrated, correct, right, And so part of what you're

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Speaker 2: saying is that this tension exploded onto the streets in

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Speaker 2: a way that the progressive community was was part of

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Speaker 2: the ferment already and then in the wake of like

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Speaker 2: and I really resist the idea of calling what happened

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Speaker 2: to Floyda tragedy because I think part of the way

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Speaker 2: in which we both isolated as an incident and also

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Speaker 2: imagine it as exceptional reduces our capacity to see the

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Speaker 2: systems as they function or, as many progressives would say,

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Speaker 2: were designed to do what they do.

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Speaker 3: I'll buy that, you know, I only mean in the

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Speaker 3: sense that it was a horrible thing that happened to him, yeh.

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Speaker 3: But but to the degree that that word kind of

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Speaker 3: like pulls it out of the general fabric, I agree

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Speaker 3: with you.

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Speaker 2: So let's let's let's stay with this point for a

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Speaker 2: little bit longer. Because one of the things you do

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Speaker 2: in the book, and Keith's book is called break the Will.

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Speaker 2: Ending the cycle of police violence comes out in May,

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Speaker 2: so you all are learning about and hearing about it

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Speaker 2: well before the book is actually released. But one of

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Speaker 2: the things you say in the book is that there's

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Speaker 2: a roll call of victims in the Minneapolis Saint Paul regions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Filando Castillo may be perhaps most recognizable by name to

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Speaker 2: a lot of people because he was killed when an

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Speaker 2: officer asked him for identification, and as he reached for

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Speaker 2: that identification, and as his girlfriend recorded it on Facebook live,

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Speaker 2: he was shot dead in the passenger seat. But there's

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Speaker 2: Jamar Clark, there are many other names.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's something about Minneapolis Saint Paul. That

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Speaker 1: is just typical of every American city. Or do you

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Speaker 1: think there's something you know, exceptional about it that there

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Speaker 1: are a high number of cases, or maybe there aren't

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Speaker 1: a high number of cases. Maybe that's this is what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing across the country.

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Speaker 3: I have to say, what is unique about Minneapolis Saint

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Speaker 3: Paul is that in our mind we are well intentioned

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Speaker 3: open up opportunity, but our reality is like the rest

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Speaker 3: of the country. You see what I'm saying. We're not worse,

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Speaker 3: We're just right. I mean, you know, I mean what

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Speaker 3: we saw in Memphis the other day. How many incidents

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Speaker 3: like that? You talk about the killing of Tyree Nickels.

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Speaker 3: How many things like that have happened since then? Right?

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Speaker 3: So that's the tragedy, is that I think that we

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Speaker 3: need to come to grips with the fact that this

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Speaker 3: problem must be addressed, and if we ever did, we'd

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Speaker 3: save one hundred million dollars in Section nineteen eighty three payouts.

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Speaker 2: These are settlements that police settlements have for local deaths.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're in Chicago, so it's more like seven hundred

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Speaker 1: million right over the last twenty five years.

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Speaker 3: So how many more playgrounds, how many more lighting, how

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Speaker 3: many more potholes? How many more community centers, how many more?

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Speaker 3: How many how many more raised? How much more? And

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Speaker 3: raises for city employees. I mean, police settlements alone have

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Speaker 3: a devastating impact on the city. If we just solved

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Speaker 3: the problem, if we broke the cycle, if we could

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Speaker 3: do a lot and let alone the fact that about

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Speaker 3: every twenty years or some period of time, there is

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Speaker 3: a civil unrest. And I know words matter, so some folks,

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Speaker 3: I'm spuck. I'm speaking about what some people might call

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Speaker 3: a riot, but others might call something else, and uprising

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Speaker 3: what those are exceedingly expensive to the city, not to

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Speaker 3: mention the loss of trust. I believe that police brutality

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Speaker 3: actually has a causal relationship to crime, because if you

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Speaker 3: won't call, and you think you're snitching and all that,

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Speaker 3: you're not going to get their responsiveness and the cooperation

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Speaker 3: needed in order to promote public safety, and you greenlight

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Speaker 3: to people who do commit crime. And I'm a prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: I assure you that some people really do make crimes,

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Speaker 3: and so police brutality needs to be solved financial reasons,

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Speaker 3: but also for safety reasons.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you or have you talked more

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Speaker 1: about a decision you made, your strategy in prosecuting the

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Speaker 1: police officer in this case that it struck me in

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Speaker 1: reading about it, that you went and spoke to your brother, right,

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Speaker 1: and you tell him about about all the people who

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Speaker 1: witnessed this in the community. And your brother says, well,

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Speaker 1: did they know George Floyd? And you're like, none of

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Speaker 1: them knew George Floyd. They didn't know him personally, and like, so,

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Speaker 1: why did they step up and take phone and try

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Speaker 1: to stop the police. And he said to you, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's the parable of the Good Samaritan.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And he said, look, you know, people went right

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Speaker 3: on by that man who was bleeding on Jericho Road.

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Speaker 3: And those people were learned in religion, they were supposed

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Speaker 3: to be, they were the responsible people, and they abandoned

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Speaker 3: him and walked by, were wre more concerned about their

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Speaker 3: own welfare and benefit. And the good Samaritan not only

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Speaker 3: loaded the man up on the donkey and took him

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Speaker 3: to an end and said, I will pay any charges

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Speaker 3: he has on my way back. And he said, these

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Speaker 3: people who didn't know George Floyd demonstrated true love of

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Speaker 3: humanity by literally sacrificing themselves. And who were these people?

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Speaker 3: There was no college professors on the scene. There were

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Speaker 3: no priests on the scene, there were no reverends on

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Speaker 3: the scene. There were three seventeen year old girls, a

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Speaker 3: nine year old girl, a sixty two year old hustler,

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Speaker 3: a thirty three year old mixed martial artist. And that's

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Speaker 3: who was there in a firefighter and there was a

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Speaker 3: fire And guess what they were a mixed race group.

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Speaker 3: And here's another thing. So were the people who killed

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Speaker 3: George Floyd. Yeah, we talk about Derek Chauvin, Well Jay

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Speaker 3: Alexander King's black two tiles, Mom.

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Speaker 1: They're the police officers who were standing by watching.

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Speaker 3: Two of them.

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Speaker 2: One was holding his legs, one.

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Speaker 3: Had physically on his body.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 3: But but there was something spiritual that happened, because a

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Speaker 3: spirit moved among those people on that street, and they demanded,

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Speaker 3: they yelled, and even as they were calling on Chauvin

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Speaker 3: the police to stop, they still had faith in the police.

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Speaker 3: They said, we're going to call the police on the police,

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Speaker 3: and they did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Can we lean into the trial a little bit? Because sure,

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Speaker 2: in many ways, the structure of this book is chapter

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Speaker 2: by chapter sort of how the system worked in this

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Speaker 2: particular prosecution.

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Speaker 3: It was made to how it was made to correct, right.

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Speaker 2: I'm won't give you a chance, okay, to share it

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Speaker 2: because part of what is possible in your telling of

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Speaker 2: this story, the blow by blow sort of legal machinery

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Speaker 2: and action in the way that, as you say your metaphor,

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Speaker 2: tried to break the wheel, tried to disrupt the way

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Speaker 2: this normally goes. Our series of interventions. Now, we won't

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Speaker 2: have the time in this conversation to unpack all of

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Speaker 2: those interventions.

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Speaker 3: We still want the people to buy the book, to right.

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Speaker 2: Good point, But there are a couple of things that

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Speaker 2: I think that I want to throw out there and

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Speaker 2: want to frame them sort of as if you were

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Speaker 2: speaking to prosecutors around the country. So one we get

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Speaker 2: the usual lie in the original press story and not

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Speaker 2: the press police account.

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Speaker 3: No, it was a press it was a press release,

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Speaker 3: press release, right.

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Speaker 2: And then the complaint itself, which i'dn't like you to

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Speaker 2: share with them, sets up essentially from the prosecutor standpoint,

435
00:25:16,356 --> 00:25:17,956
Speaker 2: a defense of Chauvin.

436
00:25:18,076 --> 00:25:22,396
Speaker 3: Yeah, so this tragedy happens around the eight to nine

437
00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:25,436
Speaker 3: o'clock hour, and I mean tragedy in that a man

438
00:25:25,516 --> 00:25:31,316
Speaker 3: lost his life. The MPD Public Information issues a press

439
00:25:31,316 --> 00:25:34,396
Speaker 3: statement saying that George Floyd died of a medical emergency,

440
00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:40,996
Speaker 3: no mention of force at all. Then what happens is

441
00:25:41,076 --> 00:25:43,876
Speaker 3: within a few days the medical examiner gets it, and

442
00:25:43,916 --> 00:25:47,476
Speaker 3: the medical examiner makes a statement that if George Floyd

443
00:25:47,556 --> 00:25:49,676
Speaker 3: was found in this medical condition in his home, I

444
00:25:49,676 --> 00:25:53,996
Speaker 3: would think it was an od no mention of a knee,

445
00:25:54,316 --> 00:25:55,876
Speaker 3: no mention in the fact that there's all kinds of

446
00:25:55,956 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 3: video of it, kind of ignoring all that, and then says,

447
00:26:00,276 --> 00:26:02,836
Speaker 3: you know, and then it won't ever We got medical

448
00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:07,116
Speaker 3: examiners who ultimately said, this is clearly mechanical asphyxia. If

449
00:26:07,116 --> 00:26:09,676
Speaker 3: you lay somebody prone on their chest, lay and get

450
00:26:09,676 --> 00:26:12,796
Speaker 3: on their back for nine minutes, there's not anyone in

451
00:26:12,796 --> 00:26:14,116
Speaker 3: this audience who wouldn't be dead.

452
00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:16,556
Speaker 2: At the rest the language for kind of suffocating someone

453
00:26:16,596 --> 00:26:17,076
Speaker 2: to yeah.

454
00:26:17,196 --> 00:26:22,036
Speaker 3: Right. But the medical examitor said, look, we didn't see Okay,

455
00:26:22,036 --> 00:26:23,956
Speaker 3: now we're going to get technical a little bit. We

456
00:26:23,956 --> 00:26:27,036
Speaker 3: didn't see any of the petiki, which are these really

457
00:26:27,076 --> 00:26:29,316
Speaker 3: small little hemorrhages that you will get in your eye

458
00:26:29,316 --> 00:26:32,676
Speaker 3: when you're choked to death, or any disruptions or injuries

459
00:26:32,716 --> 00:26:35,876
Speaker 3: to the next structure because we didn't see those. I

460
00:26:35,916 --> 00:26:39,156
Speaker 3: can't say it's as fix you. Well, the video and

461
00:26:39,516 --> 00:26:41,756
Speaker 3: everything you're seeing shows you that that's what it was.

462
00:26:42,076 --> 00:26:44,116
Speaker 3: But he said, I can't say that. I will say

463
00:26:44,556 --> 00:26:48,756
Speaker 3: that it was subdual. It was law enforcement involved subdual

464
00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:51,876
Speaker 3: restraint and neck compression, which was good enough for me.

465
00:26:52,436 --> 00:26:54,876
Speaker 3: He did call it a homicide, but some of the

466
00:26:54,996 --> 00:26:59,836
Speaker 3: early language really did create a lot of confusion. And

467
00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:03,836
Speaker 3: so you know, and then the complaint got drafted. The

468
00:27:03,836 --> 00:27:07,436
Speaker 3: original complaint didn't have second degree murderer had third and

469
00:27:07,476 --> 00:27:10,476
Speaker 3: in Minnesota, the third degree order. The Supreme Court found

470
00:27:10,476 --> 00:27:13,236
Speaker 3: that it was inappropriate charge. So if we didn't charge

471
00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:16,676
Speaker 3: this case, we'd have been left with nothing but manslaughter too,

472
00:27:17,396 --> 00:27:20,156
Speaker 3: which is culpable negligence. So y'all follow what I just said. Yes,

473
00:27:20,836 --> 00:27:24,516
Speaker 3: So we so that the complaint they drafted would have

474
00:27:24,676 --> 00:27:27,716
Speaker 3: ultimately ended up in a manslaughter too. The complaint that

475
00:27:27,796 --> 00:27:31,476
Speaker 3: we came back and redrafted resulted in second degree murder.

476
00:27:32,396 --> 00:27:36,116
Speaker 3: I mean to me, if without our intervention, I'm not

477
00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:38,756
Speaker 3: even sure the case there's a there's an argument to

478
00:27:38,756 --> 00:27:42,396
Speaker 3: be made that this thing could have gone extremely different.

479
00:27:46,676 --> 00:27:49,116
Speaker 1: H We're going to take one more quick break and

480
00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:51,356
Speaker 1: we're going to come back and talk about breaking the wheel.

481
00:28:02,956 --> 00:28:03,196
Speaker 3: Keith.

482
00:28:03,276 --> 00:28:05,916
Speaker 1: I mean, so you win a conviction, Yeah, and you're

483
00:28:05,916 --> 00:28:08,516
Speaker 1: you're talking about breaking the wheel of police violence?

484
00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:09,116
Speaker 3: Yeah.

485
00:28:09,796 --> 00:28:12,476
Speaker 1: Is a conviction of a police officer breaking the wheel?

486
00:28:13,476 --> 00:28:16,436
Speaker 1: Does that actually do the work of changing the cycle

487
00:28:16,436 --> 00:28:17,036
Speaker 1: of violence.

488
00:28:17,476 --> 00:28:22,516
Speaker 3: It's a necessary but insufficient thing. Because let me tell

489
00:28:22,516 --> 00:28:24,876
Speaker 3: you why I say this, because I think there's really

490
00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:28,116
Speaker 3: only two things that are going to straighten this problem out,

491
00:28:28,316 --> 00:28:33,076
Speaker 3: and that is criminal prosecution of criminal activity by law

492
00:28:33,156 --> 00:28:41,116
Speaker 3: enforcement and administrative firings of people who are just not

493
00:28:41,236 --> 00:28:43,596
Speaker 3: good police officer or a bad police officers and break

494
00:28:43,596 --> 00:28:48,036
Speaker 3: the rules. As I say this, the real people I

495
00:28:48,076 --> 00:28:50,236
Speaker 3: believe are going to benefit are the of the remaining

496
00:28:50,276 --> 00:28:54,916
Speaker 3: police And I'm telling you, within a week after within

497
00:28:54,956 --> 00:28:59,436
Speaker 3: a week, fourteen Minneapolis police officers wrote an open letter saying,

498
00:28:59,436 --> 00:29:03,996
Speaker 3: we absolutely condemn what happened and we're committed to a

499
00:29:04,036 --> 00:29:08,876
Speaker 3: better future. The longest serving police officer in the Minneapols

500
00:29:08,876 --> 00:29:13,036
Speaker 3: Police Department took the stand and denounce what happened, and

501
00:29:13,116 --> 00:29:15,556
Speaker 3: so did the police chief. So there is a thing

502
00:29:15,636 --> 00:29:20,596
Speaker 3: going on within policing where police were like, look, I

503
00:29:20,836 --> 00:29:23,316
Speaker 3: joined to help people. I didn't joined to do what

504
00:29:23,356 --> 00:29:23,836
Speaker 3: you're doing.

505
00:29:24,796 --> 00:29:29,316
Speaker 2: You know, you've already started to talk about the lessons

506
00:29:29,516 --> 00:29:34,316
Speaker 2: from the Chauvin trial and the implications for how criminal

507
00:29:34,356 --> 00:29:38,116
Speaker 2: prosecution has to be a huge part of the overall

508
00:29:38,196 --> 00:29:42,596
Speaker 2: strategy of police reform wherever it's taking place. And that's

509
00:29:42,716 --> 00:29:45,836
Speaker 2: the conversation that we've been having since the summer of

510
00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:50,756
Speaker 2: twenty twenty, this national conversation about police reform. And I

511
00:29:50,916 --> 00:29:55,676
Speaker 2: just want you to sort of give us two things

512
00:29:55,716 --> 00:29:58,916
Speaker 2: you think just out the gate nationally we should be

513
00:29:58,996 --> 00:30:01,316
Speaker 2: doing that we are not already doing in this country,

514
00:30:01,476 --> 00:30:04,276
Speaker 2: and maybe even consider the George Floyd Policing Act in

515
00:30:04,276 --> 00:30:06,876
Speaker 2: its own limitations or not.

516
00:30:07,836 --> 00:30:11,036
Speaker 3: Right, Well, let me just say before I get to those,

517
00:30:12,116 --> 00:30:15,636
Speaker 3: you've got to prosecute criminal behavior, and you've got to

518
00:30:15,956 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 3: fire and administratively respond to rule violations. If you don't

519
00:30:22,756 --> 00:30:26,356
Speaker 3: do these things, nothing else you do is going to work.

520
00:30:27,436 --> 00:30:31,076
Speaker 3: But here's the good news. This is a fixable problem.

521
00:30:32,076 --> 00:30:33,116
Speaker 3: It really really is.

522
00:30:33,756 --> 00:30:37,196
Speaker 2: And I know that we're listening, right, we're not sure.

523
00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:39,356
Speaker 3: Well, well, let me just tell you this. I know

524
00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:43,996
Speaker 3: that there's some folks will say this system depends structurally

525
00:30:44,116 --> 00:30:48,356
Speaker 3: on some people being on the bottom end of it,

526
00:30:48,716 --> 00:30:53,596
Speaker 3: and people being the system requires victims, and the way

527
00:30:53,636 --> 00:30:57,756
Speaker 3: that the system maintains itself is through police violence and

528
00:30:57,836 --> 00:31:00,076
Speaker 3: other things. I know that that I'm aware of that

529
00:31:00,116 --> 00:31:02,396
Speaker 3: point of view. What I would say is, I think

530
00:31:02,476 --> 00:31:04,676
Speaker 3: that point of view is a little bit too cynical.

531
00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:07,716
Speaker 3: And the reason why I say that is because we've

532
00:31:07,756 --> 00:31:10,796
Speaker 3: seen cities where these cities are not in nirvana, and

533
00:31:10,796 --> 00:31:13,276
Speaker 3: I'm not offering them as perfect, but things have gotten

534
00:31:13,396 --> 00:31:16,916
Speaker 3: dramatically better in Newark, New Jersey. They have gotten better

535
00:31:16,996 --> 00:31:23,316
Speaker 3: in Camden, New Jersey. Right. Well, it takes leadership. It

536
00:31:23,356 --> 00:31:27,196
Speaker 3: takes people like Rasbaraka to say this is the way

537
00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:30,636
Speaker 3: we're gonna do things differently, and it does take that

538
00:31:30,716 --> 00:31:35,716
Speaker 3: kind of leadership. But having said that, what I would

539
00:31:35,756 --> 00:31:40,036
Speaker 3: say is that we've got to have a national registry

540
00:31:40,556 --> 00:31:43,836
Speaker 3: so that if you are fired for bad policing, you

541
00:31:43,876 --> 00:31:46,436
Speaker 3: cannot just go to some other state and start policing.

542
00:31:49,516 --> 00:31:51,716
Speaker 3: An example of what I mean is there's a guy

543
00:31:51,796 --> 00:31:58,956
Speaker 3: named Loewen who was found by one Cleveland area police

544
00:31:58,956 --> 00:32:03,476
Speaker 3: department to be so unqualified that they said, get out

545
00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:06,676
Speaker 3: of here, you can't police here. He shows up in Cleveland,

546
00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:10,156
Speaker 3: gets a job and then kill twelve year old to

547
00:32:10,756 --> 00:32:13,996
Speaker 3: mere rights. It's shocking to me that this guy was

548
00:32:13,996 --> 00:32:16,996
Speaker 3: found to be unfit for a police department, but could

549
00:32:17,036 --> 00:32:19,596
Speaker 3: just go get a police job somewhere else. So that's

550
00:32:19,636 --> 00:32:24,716
Speaker 3: one thing that we've absolutely got to do. And then

551
00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:27,476
Speaker 3: the other thing that we've got to do is Okay,

552
00:32:27,516 --> 00:32:30,476
Speaker 3: so we've gotten all this body warn camera video now

553
00:32:31,196 --> 00:32:34,956
Speaker 3: nearly every it's a common thing we use it to

554
00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:39,076
Speaker 3: We use it in litigation to prove or disprove what happened.

555
00:32:39,636 --> 00:32:43,756
Speaker 3: But do we use it as a training exercise. We

556
00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:48,036
Speaker 3: need to use it like on a every six months

557
00:32:48,116 --> 00:32:50,356
Speaker 3: or every four months. Come on in here, see what

558
00:32:50,396 --> 00:32:52,436
Speaker 3: you did, See what you didn't do. You can do

559
00:32:52,476 --> 00:32:54,636
Speaker 3: this better. Why'd you talk to this person this way?

560
00:32:55,036 --> 00:32:56,916
Speaker 3: One thing I'll tell you, And this sounds petty, but

561
00:32:56,996 --> 00:33:00,036
Speaker 3: I believe it's very true. Think about the people who

562
00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:02,916
Speaker 3: don't die as a result of a negative police community interaction,

563
00:33:03,036 --> 00:33:07,396
Speaker 3: the people who survive. How many people I know who've

564
00:33:07,396 --> 00:33:11,516
Speaker 3: been called foul names, racist names, kicked in the butt,

565
00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:14,876
Speaker 3: slapped in the head. The idea that you're going to

566
00:33:14,916 --> 00:33:21,236
Speaker 3: scare the population into submission is false. People will rebel.

567
00:33:21,276 --> 00:33:23,436
Speaker 3: They don't like it. They're not gonna just take it.

568
00:33:23,996 --> 00:33:26,836
Speaker 3: So we we've got to change the whole culture of

569
00:33:26,876 --> 00:33:30,316
Speaker 3: the police policing to be one of guardianship and support

570
00:33:30,716 --> 00:33:33,956
Speaker 3: as opposed to you better do what I'm gonna say,

571
00:33:34,036 --> 00:33:36,676
Speaker 3: or I'm gonna go upside your head. This got we've

572
00:33:36,716 --> 00:33:38,676
Speaker 3: got to do it differently than we've been doing it.

573
00:33:39,276 --> 00:33:44,316
Speaker 2: On the body cameras, uh, and this Tyree Nichols's executioners

574
00:33:44,396 --> 00:33:47,196
Speaker 2: were clearly aware that their body cameras were running who

575
00:33:47,236 --> 00:33:52,996
Speaker 2: look staging, We're staging a resisting arrest charge because that

576
00:33:53,156 --> 00:33:56,236
Speaker 2: was the mechanism they used to say. This guy was resisting.

577
00:33:56,276 --> 00:33:59,516
Speaker 2: This is why we kept delivering blows to him. So

578
00:34:00,556 --> 00:34:02,956
Speaker 2: that's not to say body cameras can't help, but their

579
00:34:03,436 --> 00:34:06,116
Speaker 2: police officers are training themselves also how to get around.

580
00:34:06,876 --> 00:34:09,036
Speaker 3: Yeah. But well but here's what I'll say, though, Khalil.

581
00:34:09,196 --> 00:34:12,196
Speaker 3: While while they clearly were trying to lie and say,

582
00:34:12,236 --> 00:34:14,796
Speaker 3: oh he was so strong, Oh, they were making up

583
00:34:14,796 --> 00:34:17,236
Speaker 3: a story, and anybody who watched the team could see

584
00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:19,316
Speaker 3: them making up a story.

585
00:34:19,396 --> 00:34:21,156
Speaker 2: Except we live in Trump America.

586
00:34:21,196 --> 00:34:24,436
Speaker 3: Well yeah, the people say, look, with those who don't

587
00:34:24,436 --> 00:34:27,316
Speaker 3: want to see, ain't going to see. But for anybody

588
00:34:27,356 --> 00:34:30,316
Speaker 3: who's remotely honest about what they were looking at could

589
00:34:30,356 --> 00:34:33,716
Speaker 3: tell we're watching you concocta story.

590
00:34:34,116 --> 00:34:36,556
Speaker 1: So I want to you talked about that laundry list

591
00:34:36,596 --> 00:34:40,836
Speaker 1: of incredibly valuable reforms to policing, and you know, I

592
00:34:40,876 --> 00:34:44,596
Speaker 1: want to talk about another lesson of the George Floyd experience.

593
00:34:44,636 --> 00:34:47,996
Speaker 1: I mean in our recent history, because we all just

594
00:34:48,076 --> 00:34:52,516
Speaker 1: lived through this where those suddenly all felt like possibilities.

595
00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:54,956
Speaker 1: And I was reporting a book where I was going

596
00:34:55,036 --> 00:34:57,716
Speaker 1: to parole hearings and I could hear month to month

597
00:34:58,076 --> 00:35:01,396
Speaker 1: the country, the people around me be becoming more lenient,

598
00:35:01,556 --> 00:35:04,996
Speaker 1: being becoming more open to changing the criminal justice system,

599
00:35:05,396 --> 00:35:08,836
Speaker 1: and then it being supercharged after the death of George

600
00:35:08,836 --> 00:35:12,036
Speaker 1: Floyd and all those policies that you just listed, there

601
00:35:12,076 --> 00:35:14,956
Speaker 1: were municipalities across the country who are like, damn, we

602
00:35:14,996 --> 00:35:18,356
Speaker 1: are going to do this right. And then the history

603
00:35:18,356 --> 00:35:21,316
Speaker 1: that we lived through is that they didn't happen. That

604
00:35:21,436 --> 00:35:24,316
Speaker 1: this extreme backlash that we just went through, where we

605
00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:27,116
Speaker 1: didn't even pass in the US Congress of George Floyd

606
00:35:27,196 --> 00:35:29,996
Speaker 1: Act that died in the Senate. And so if that's

607
00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:33,356
Speaker 1: the lesson of all this, that we can't even sustain

608
00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:36,836
Speaker 1: it after the most you know, for most of our lifetimes,

609
00:35:36,876 --> 00:35:40,916
Speaker 1: the biggest mass protest, and it is the biggest math

610
00:35:40,956 --> 00:35:43,316
Speaker 1: protests in the history of the United States. And so

611
00:35:44,396 --> 00:35:45,836
Speaker 1: you know it didn't happen.

612
00:35:46,116 --> 00:35:47,276
Speaker 3: Well, by the.

613
00:35:47,276 --> 00:35:49,956
Speaker 2: Way, just for the record, I knew that Biden went

614
00:35:49,996 --> 00:35:53,276
Speaker 2: on the record saying fun fund fund the police. Minneapolis

615
00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:57,036
Speaker 2: repealed its own attempt to rename and redefined policing as

616
00:35:57,076 --> 00:36:00,396
Speaker 2: the Department of Public Safety. And we've had mayors like

617
00:36:00,516 --> 00:36:04,396
Speaker 2: Eric Adams run basically on tough on crime messages, reinstituting

618
00:36:04,396 --> 00:36:07,236
Speaker 2: street crime units like the kinds that were disbanded in

619
00:36:07,276 --> 00:36:09,036
Speaker 2: the wake of the stop in first revelations.

620
00:36:10,396 --> 00:36:14,036
Speaker 3: So, yeah, what is all those things you said are true?

621
00:36:14,196 --> 00:36:16,996
Speaker 3: But so is it? So is this true? The state

622
00:36:17,036 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 3: of Minnesota did ban choke holes, We did pass the

623
00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:24,956
Speaker 3: Police Officer Status and Training Board to bake to be

624
00:36:25,036 --> 00:36:29,036
Speaker 3: more to be tough for on police violence and misconduct.

625
00:36:28,796 --> 00:36:32,356
Speaker 3: We did. We had a number of reforms. So while

626
00:36:32,356 --> 00:36:35,516
Speaker 3: I'm not saying that you guys are wrong, you're clearly right.

627
00:36:35,716 --> 00:36:37,476
Speaker 3: But what I'm saying is that there's more to the

628
00:36:37,516 --> 00:36:39,676
Speaker 3: story than that. The real question is what are we

629
00:36:39,716 --> 00:36:42,596
Speaker 3: going to do? Because because one of the things that

630
00:36:42,636 --> 00:36:45,676
Speaker 3: I think is a product of the pandemic, is that

631
00:36:45,716 --> 00:36:52,476
Speaker 3: there was a measurable increase in crime. There just was, folks.

632
00:36:53,156 --> 00:36:55,876
Speaker 3: And so the question is have we learned anything? Are

633
00:36:55,876 --> 00:36:58,356
Speaker 3: we going to go back to nineteen ninety four? Are

634
00:36:58,356 --> 00:37:00,596
Speaker 3: we going to go back to nineteen seventy two? And

635
00:37:00,756 --> 00:37:01,756
Speaker 3: what are we going to do? Are we what are

636
00:37:01,756 --> 00:37:07,236
Speaker 3: we gonna Why don't we learn something from those eras

637
00:37:07,596 --> 00:37:10,396
Speaker 3: that led to massive cars array and the kind of

638
00:37:10,396 --> 00:37:14,316
Speaker 3: green lighted excessive force. Every moment is still a moment

639
00:37:14,596 --> 00:37:16,756
Speaker 3: where we can make the changes that we need to.

640
00:37:17,076 --> 00:37:20,036
Speaker 3: The question is are we committed? Will we do it?

641
00:37:20,436 --> 00:37:24,476
Speaker 3: And I think the answer is yes, because ultimately the

642
00:37:24,556 --> 00:37:29,076
Speaker 3: tough on crime message doesn't make you safer, right, And

643
00:37:29,156 --> 00:37:33,316
Speaker 3: so we've got to keep fighting back, keep pushing back,

644
00:37:33,676 --> 00:37:36,476
Speaker 3: and I believe that we will have the George Ford

645
00:37:36,556 --> 00:37:40,596
Speaker 3: Justice of Policing pass and because I'm not quitting, Okay, right,

646
00:37:40,676 --> 00:37:42,276
Speaker 3: all right, and thank you all very much.

647
00:37:43,196 --> 00:37:48,996
Speaker 2: So we're almost done. We are coming in for landing.

648
00:37:49,196 --> 00:37:51,396
Speaker 2: But Ben's going to take us home to Chicago to

649
00:37:51,436 --> 00:37:52,556
Speaker 2: close out this conversation.

650
00:37:52,796 --> 00:37:55,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we you know, Kim Fox, who is our

651
00:37:55,236 --> 00:37:57,956
Speaker 1: district attorney, is stepping down. So We're going to very

652
00:37:57,996 --> 00:38:01,076
Speaker 1: soon have a new district attorney, we have a new mayor,

653
00:38:01,196 --> 00:38:03,956
Speaker 1: We're going to have a new police chief. So you know,

654
00:38:03,996 --> 00:38:06,676
Speaker 1: this is a city that has been trying to break

655
00:38:06,716 --> 00:38:13,716
Speaker 1: the wheel of police violence and police reform since Lakwan MacDonald,

656
00:38:13,796 --> 00:38:17,276
Speaker 1: but for decades before that. Also, what do you feel like,

657
00:38:17,436 --> 00:38:20,036
Speaker 1: you know, for a place like Chicago, for a place

658
00:38:20,116 --> 00:38:24,676
Speaker 1: like Minnesota, Minneapolis, for cities across the country, what is

659
00:38:24,716 --> 00:38:28,076
Speaker 1: the chief impediment for these changes that we're talking about.

660
00:38:29,396 --> 00:38:32,116
Speaker 3: Well, I wish I could narrow it to just one,

661
00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:37,276
Speaker 3: but I'm going to start with I'll just say this,

662
00:38:38,596 --> 00:38:42,356
Speaker 3: the cheap impediment is that it's not always easy to

663
00:38:42,516 --> 00:38:46,556
Speaker 3: maintain dual thoughts in one mind. Here's what I mean.

664
00:38:47,476 --> 00:38:52,316
Speaker 3: Can we have a system that is addresses and holds

665
00:38:52,356 --> 00:38:57,716
Speaker 3: accountable people who commit heinous murder and has compassion within

666
00:38:57,796 --> 00:39:01,676
Speaker 3: it at the same time. That's what we get. That

667
00:39:01,796 --> 00:39:05,636
Speaker 3: is the balancing act, because you know, when something heinous

668
00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:08,876
Speaker 3: like this happens to Zire and mckeeper, the impulse is

669
00:39:08,956 --> 00:39:13,636
Speaker 3: to to retaliate with retribution against a person who did it.

670
00:39:14,436 --> 00:39:18,716
Speaker 3: I would say that that's often not the best way

671
00:39:18,756 --> 00:39:21,756
Speaker 3: to keep the community safe, but let's not go to

672
00:39:21,796 --> 00:39:23,996
Speaker 3: the other end of the spectrum where we're just gonna

673
00:39:24,036 --> 00:39:26,436
Speaker 3: let that person go, because that might not even be

674
00:39:26,516 --> 00:39:28,556
Speaker 3: good for that person, and it certainly is bad for

675
00:39:28,676 --> 00:39:32,836
Speaker 3: victims and community. We've got to have some balance, do

676
00:39:32,836 --> 00:39:33,756
Speaker 3: you think politically?

677
00:39:33,796 --> 00:39:36,396
Speaker 1: I mean, you said that the choices are, you know,

678
00:39:36,596 --> 00:39:39,156
Speaker 1: throwing the book, you know, sending someone away for life,

679
00:39:39,236 --> 00:39:43,076
Speaker 1: or like no punishment. That seems like a false kind of.

680
00:39:43,396 --> 00:39:46,236
Speaker 3: I absolutely agree, and that's actually, well, that's what I'm

681
00:39:46,236 --> 00:39:48,476
Speaker 3: trying to say, Ben, it's a false choice. We can

682
00:39:48,516 --> 00:39:50,796
Speaker 3: do better than that. Our imaginations can take us in

683
00:39:50,836 --> 00:39:53,916
Speaker 3: a better place than that. We've got to start imagining

684
00:39:54,476 --> 00:40:01,796
Speaker 3: that doing a horrible thing is is horrible, and we're

685
00:40:01,836 --> 00:40:04,396
Speaker 3: gonna treat it like it's horrible. But it doesn't mean

686
00:40:04,796 --> 00:40:10,676
Speaker 3: you've been banished from humanity forever. The problem is we're

687
00:40:10,756 --> 00:40:13,316
Speaker 3: always this or that. Just like you pointed out, Ben,

688
00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:18,236
Speaker 3: we don't have the tools, and because we won't allow ourselves,

689
00:40:18,276 --> 00:40:22,556
Speaker 3: we're so we're animated by anger or we're animated by

690
00:40:22,556 --> 00:40:26,316
Speaker 3: a feeling. The system is completely racist and unjustin and humane.

691
00:40:26,556 --> 00:40:28,956
Speaker 3: So now we're not going to do anything. We've got

692
00:40:28,956 --> 00:40:33,676
Speaker 3: to understand that, you know, that look, murders, rapes, robberies,

693
00:40:34,356 --> 00:40:38,156
Speaker 3: they happen, and I don't care how progressive you are,

694
00:40:38,196 --> 00:40:41,596
Speaker 3: you can't wish them away. They're there. We've got to

695
00:40:41,636 --> 00:40:45,956
Speaker 3: have a response that gives people a realistic sense of

696
00:40:46,276 --> 00:40:51,436
Speaker 3: safety and accountability. And yet at the same time, let's

697
00:40:51,476 --> 00:40:53,916
Speaker 3: never forget that second chances and mercy are part of

698
00:40:53,916 --> 00:40:56,236
Speaker 3: what we've got to be doing too. One of the

699
00:40:56,236 --> 00:40:58,676
Speaker 3: things I'm real proud of is in Minnesota, we used

700
00:40:58,676 --> 00:41:00,756
Speaker 3: to say that after you've got out of prison, you

701
00:41:00,836 --> 00:41:03,236
Speaker 3: can't vote until you're on probation or parole, and that

702
00:41:03,396 --> 00:41:05,876
Speaker 3: might be a decade later after you get out. We've

703
00:41:05,876 --> 00:41:07,556
Speaker 3: gotten rid of that. Now you can vote as soon

704
00:41:07,556 --> 00:41:10,876
Speaker 3: as you get out. We're proud of that. That's saying

705
00:41:10,916 --> 00:41:13,596
Speaker 3: that now now people who are in the criminal justice

706
00:41:13,636 --> 00:41:18,036
Speaker 3: system become a voting block suddenly. And believe it or not,

707
00:41:18,476 --> 00:41:22,676
Speaker 3: they're not uh, they're not particularly lenient, you know. They

708
00:41:22,436 --> 00:41:25,476
Speaker 3: they they got firm opinions on what works and what doesn't.

709
00:41:25,996 --> 00:41:27,636
Speaker 3: But you know what, you know, I tell you, this

710
00:41:27,716 --> 00:41:31,196
Speaker 3: is an ongoing conversation that we just cannot quit on.

711
00:41:31,596 --> 00:41:33,716
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're sort of ending where we could just like

712
00:41:33,796 --> 00:41:34,836
Speaker 1: talk all day about this.

713
00:41:34,876 --> 00:41:37,316
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, so we want to we want to just

714
00:41:37,356 --> 00:41:40,596
Speaker 2: say thank you so much, thank you for joining us

715
00:41:40,596 --> 00:41:44,996
Speaker 2: this afternoon here in Chicago for this conversation we are.

716
00:41:45,196 --> 00:41:46,796
Speaker 1: We are going to be watching.

717
00:41:46,436 --> 00:41:50,676
Speaker 2: You closely, holding you accountable at least states representative and

718
00:41:50,756 --> 00:41:53,716
Speaker 2: also exuding the values that you're articulated. Today's thank you

719
00:41:53,756 --> 00:41:55,676
Speaker 2: so much for coming on. Some of my best friends are.

720
00:41:55,876 --> 00:42:00,516
Speaker 3: Thanks been, and thank you Khalil and uh hey, listen

721
00:42:00,556 --> 00:42:03,516
Speaker 3: to the podcast and check out Break the Wheel too.

722
00:42:04,196 --> 00:42:11,876
Speaker 2: All right, Some of my best Friends Are is a

723
00:42:11,876 --> 00:42:15,636
Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted

724
00:42:15,636 --> 00:42:19,116
Speaker 2: by me, Khalil Dubron Muhammad and my best friend Ben Austin.

725
00:42:19,356 --> 00:42:23,276
Speaker 1: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.

726
00:42:23,796 --> 00:42:27,076
Speaker 1: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keishel Williams.

727
00:42:27,436 --> 00:42:31,236
Speaker 1: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our managing producer

728
00:42:31,396 --> 00:42:34,356
Speaker 1: is Constanza Guyardo at Pushkin.

729
00:42:34,516 --> 00:42:39,476
Speaker 2: Thanks to Leital Mollat, Julia Barton, Heather Fain, Carly Migliori,

730
00:42:39,876 --> 00:42:43,436
Speaker 2: John Schnarz, Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.

731
00:42:43,756 --> 00:42:47,516
Speaker 1: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the

732
00:42:47,556 --> 00:42:51,516
Speaker 1: brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely

733
00:42:51,516 --> 00:42:54,516
Speaker 1: want to check out his music at his website, Averyaryong

734
00:42:54,636 --> 00:42:55,236
Speaker 1: dot com.

735
00:42:55,356 --> 00:42:58,516
Speaker 2: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin

736
00:42:58,596 --> 00:43:01,436
Speaker 2: Pods and you can sign up for our newsletter at

737
00:43:01,436 --> 00:43:05,636
Speaker 2: pushkin dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on

738
00:43:05,676 --> 00:43:09,516
Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

739
00:43:09,316 --> 00:43:09,836
Speaker 3: Like to listen.

740
00:43:09,996 --> 00:43:12,396
Speaker 1: And if you like our show, please give us a

741
00:43:12,436 --> 00:43:15,036
Speaker 1: five star rating and a review and listen even if

742
00:43:15,036 --> 00:43:16,676
Speaker 1: you don't like it, give it a five star rating

743
00:43:16,716 --> 00:43:19,596
Speaker 1: and a review, and please tell all of your best

744
00:43:19,596 --> 00:43:20,356
Speaker 1: friends about it.

745
00:43:20,756 --> 00:43:26,996
Speaker 2: Thank you,