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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridge Tad and this

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Speaker 1: is there Are No Girls on the Internet. Mike. It

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Speaker 1: is nice to have you back. How have you been.

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Speaker 2: I've been good. It's been nice to be back. You know,

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Speaker 2: I really enjoyed Joey's episode last week, but it's nice

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Speaker 2: to be back.

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Speaker 1: I agree. So let's get into some of these news stories.

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Speaker 1: We have some updates and some new news around attempts

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Speaker 1: to legislate the Internet to make it safer for kids

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Speaker 1: in scare quotes both here and around the world, because

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Speaker 1: rather than actually keeping kids safe, lawmakers seem to be

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Speaker 1: going all in on just bubble wrapping the Internet instead,

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Speaker 1: in some cases with less than optimal results. So yesterday,

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Speaker 1: a coalition of LGBTQ plus and sex worker led organizations

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Speaker 1: filed a complaint urging the Federal Trade Commission to open

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Speaker 1: an investigation into MasterCards adult content policy, alleging that it

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Speaker 1: constitutes an unfair business practice. So basically, what's going on

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Speaker 1: is that back in twenty twenty one, MasterCard put a

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Speaker 1: new policy in place for websites that host adult content,

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Speaker 1: like OnlyFans that use master Card payment options. The policy

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Speaker 1: requires these websites to jump through kind of a lot

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Speaker 1: of hoops, like getting pre approval for all content before publication,

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Speaker 1: forbidding certain search terms, and keeping record of age and

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Speaker 1: identity verification of all performers. Now, the ACLU says that

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Speaker 1: this policy restricts free speech and harms the livelihood of

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Speaker 1: sex workers, especially black, immigrant and trans sex workers, while

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Speaker 1: also just failing to make those content platforms any safer.

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Speaker 1: When the policy was first put in place back in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, researcher Valerie Weber surveyed one hundred and

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Speaker 1: seventeen sex workers about how MasterCards Adult Content policy was

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Speaker 1: impacting their work now. According to the Queer News outlet, them,

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Speaker 1: ninety percent of the respondents in that survey said that

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Speaker 1: their work suffered when that policy was implemented. They reported

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Speaker 1: payment interruptions and account flaggings and closures, and mostly it

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Speaker 1: sounds like all of them felt like all of these

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Speaker 1: hoops they had to jump through did not actually make

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Speaker 1: the adult industry any safer. The ACLUSED Trans Justice campaign

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Speaker 1: manager La La b Holsten Zanell wrote in a blog

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Speaker 1: that by restricting sex workers' ability to do business, online

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Speaker 1: payment processors were actually increasing the likelihood that they might

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Speaker 1: have to turn into more dangerous methods of making money,

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Speaker 1: such as street based sex work. They also point out

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Speaker 1: that many adult content websites require biometric identification technology that

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Speaker 1: we know is racist and routinely used by law enforcement

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Speaker 1: to surveil and target and track black and brown people.

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Speaker 1: So requiring the use of that technology to verify your

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Speaker 1: age or identity is like doubly problematic, which led to

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Speaker 1: this coalition of LGBTQ plus and sex worker let organizations

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Speaker 1: filing this complaint with the FTC. And I really see

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Speaker 1: this as yet another example of how hostile online platforms

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Speaker 1: can be to people who engage in sex work. You know,

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Speaker 1: we've talked on the show a bit about Sesta Fasta,

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Speaker 1: and that is another good example of how these kinds

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Speaker 1: of legislation that are ostensibly kind of on their face

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Speaker 1: meant to make the Internet safer, what they actually do

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Speaker 1: is they make it worse and less safe for everyone.

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Speaker 2: Yes, sadly we hear so many examples like that on

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Speaker 2: this show of policies supposed to make the Internet safer

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Speaker 2: or you know, save the children that don't do that, right,

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Speaker 2: The best case scenario, they have no impact. But worst

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Speaker 2: case scenario, like this MasterCard policy, it actually puts people

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Speaker 2: at risk by taking away their livelihoods to be able

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Speaker 2: to make content, make a living off their content online

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Speaker 2: and according to that poole, pushing people into street based

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Speaker 2: sex work.

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Speaker 1: So when it comes to things like fasta SESTA, that

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Speaker 1: legislation on its face was supposed to be fighting online

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Speaker 1: sex trafficking and and you know, the acronym is Stop

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Speaker 1: Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and allow States and victims to

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Speaker 1: Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act. However, sex workers reported routinely

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Speaker 1: that you know, by making by having that legislation really

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Speaker 1: target and further criminalize people who are engaged in sex work,

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Speaker 1: what it actually did was it meant that people who

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Speaker 1: are routinely online in spaces where sex is being exchanged

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Speaker 1: for money could not raise the alarm when something untoward

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Speaker 1: was happening, when something unconsensual was happening. And so when

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Speaker 1: you criminalize the people who are showing up to those spaces,

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Speaker 1: the ones who are really you know, sounding the alarm

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Speaker 1: when somebody is being trafficked or something non consensual is happening,

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Speaker 1: when those people don't feel safe speaking up, you actually

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Speaker 1: make you actually are getting further away from the thing

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Speaker 1: that you say is you know the reasoning for passing

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Speaker 1: this legislation in the first place. Okay, So, speaking of

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Speaker 1: legislating the Internet, Mike, you know that we've been tracking

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Speaker 1: this flurry of a verification laws moving across the country that,

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Speaker 1: if passed, would require us to verify that we're over

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Speaker 1: eighteen to access social media. Here's a couple of quick

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Speaker 1: updates so far. Utah, California, and Texas have all passed

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Speaker 1: laws that will require verification that new users are eighteen

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Speaker 1: or older, and Louisiana's law actually requires miners to be

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Speaker 1: sixteen to create social media accounts. Now, all of those

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Speaker 1: laws are meant to go into effect after Arkansas's law,

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Speaker 1: and in Arkansas, the age verification law almost did go

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Speaker 1: into effect tonight, but late tonight Thursday, a federal judge

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Speaker 1: temporary block the state's social media age verification law, just

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Speaker 1: hours before it was meant to go into effect. The

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Speaker 1: judge said the laws a burden on the free speech

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Speaker 1: of miners and adults, and it is not targeted to

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Speaker 1: address the harms it is identified. So actually sounds like

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Speaker 1: quite a bit like what we were just talking about,

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Speaker 1: where the law will lay out something that it is

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Speaker 1: meant to be combating, but then the actual implementation does

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Speaker 1: not actually do that, and in some cases takes you

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Speaker 1: further away from that stated intention.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and the judge basically said what we've said every

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Speaker 2: time we've talked about these laws. You know, it's not

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Speaker 2: targeted to address the harms that has identified. And it

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Speaker 2: really does make you wonder, like, if it's so obvious

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Speaker 2: to us, to people making a podcast, and it's obvious

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Speaker 2: to this judge and a whole bunch of other people

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Speaker 2: that these laws are not accomplishing the things that they

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Speaker 2: say they're trying to accomplish. Why do so many people

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Speaker 2: keep pushing for them? Why do we have a whole

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Speaker 2: list of states that have passed them and are trying

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Speaker 2: to put them into law.

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Speaker 1: What a good question. I think it's a couple of things. One,

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Speaker 1: I think it's the need to appear to be doing something.

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Speaker 1: I think that it's clear something needs to be done,

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Speaker 1: and so I think this like rushed law that's just like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this will do something. I think that's part of it. Two,

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Speaker 1: I think that the conversation has been completely hijacked by people,

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Speaker 1: not completely, but in some ways has been hijacked by

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Speaker 1: peace people who really don't have the best interests of

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Speaker 1: kids in mind, and that they know that when you

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Speaker 1: bring up protecting kids, people will really scramble to do anything.

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Speaker 1: And so I think that like they might have an agenda,

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Speaker 1: you know, the Heritage Foundation, I think it was like

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Speaker 1: explicitly said that these laws about kids on the Internet,

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Speaker 1: they intend to use that to further suppress content about

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Speaker 1: like LGBTQ folks and identity and things like that. So

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Speaker 1: I think it's just becomes something where you have people

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Speaker 1: who legitimately have bad intentions and then like, if you're

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Speaker 1: saying this is going to make a difference, we have

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Speaker 1: to do something. So maybe that's this. And I also

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Speaker 1: think that the converse again, the conversation around how we

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Speaker 1: protect people online has become so muddled, and I think

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Speaker 1: that it's it's like the age verification thing is such

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Speaker 1: a quick fix because you can say, like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: this law prevents kids from being online in the first place,

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Speaker 1: it prevents kids from being on social media in the

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Speaker 1: first place. As to really addressing the root cause of

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Speaker 1: the harm that social media presents, not just for young people,

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Speaker 1: but for all of us. So I think it's like

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Speaker 1: a quick fix that really allows for lawmakers and policy

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Speaker 1: folks and people in charge to not have to address

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Speaker 1: some of the more systemic root causes of what's going on.

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Speaker 1: If you can make a law that's just like, well,

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Speaker 1: the law says they shouldn't be on it any way,

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Speaker 1: then you don't have to do any of that. It's

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Speaker 1: like a quick fix. And meanwhile, in Australia, the federal

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Speaker 1: government in Australia was actually looking into age verification to

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Speaker 1: access porn online, as we've seen in a flory of

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Speaker 1: states here in the United States like Virginia and I

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Speaker 1: think Arkansas as well. But this week Australia's e Safety

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Speaker 1: Commissioner released a long awaited roadmap to rolling out age verification,

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Speaker 1: which they say after looking into it, they are not

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Speaker 1: moving ahead with age verification to access pornography online. So

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Speaker 1: the report actually does say that while it's not great

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Speaker 1: that young people are accessing porn online at pretty young

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Speaker 1: ages like thirteen fourteen, it's not all bad. That does

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Speaker 1: not paint a full enough picture because the report also

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Speaker 1: cites a gap in sex education for LGBTQ youth that

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Speaker 1: online porn might actually be filling, the E Safety Commissioner

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Speaker 1: said quote. In our research, participants who identified as lesbian, gay,

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Speaker 1: or bisexual were also significantly more likely to say that

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Speaker 1: there were some positive effects of online pornography on young

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Speaker 1: people learning about sex and exploring sexuality than straight participants.

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Speaker 1: Some stakeholders reflected this may be due to the lack

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Speaker 1: of other representations or learning sources for young lgbtqiplus people,

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Speaker 1: including a lack of inclusive sex education in schools, which

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Speaker 1: honestly really tracks with my own experiences online as well.

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Speaker 1: So instead of requiring age verification to access porn online,

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Speaker 1: the E Safety Commission in Australia is actually going to

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Speaker 1: develop a new code to educate parents on how to

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Speaker 1: access filtering software and limit children's access to such material

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Speaker 1: or sites that are not appropriate for young people.

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Speaker 2: Such a more thoughtful and like measured, targeted response than

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Speaker 2: anything we've talked about happening in the States for a while.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Australia is like, we spent like, I think this

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Speaker 1: report has been like years in the making. Australia has

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Speaker 1: spent a long time digging into this this policy change,

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Speaker 1: and instead was like, oh, there's a better way to

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Speaker 1: do this, Like there's a better way to actually help

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Speaker 1: parents mitigate the harm that this poses to kids. And

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Speaker 1: so yeah, it's definitely like a more thoughtful approach and

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Speaker 1: actually speaking of youth and social media. In ann Armundol

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Speaker 1: County in Maryland, the school district issuing Facebook, Snapchat, TikTok,

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Speaker 1: Google and other social media platforms, saying that social media

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Speaker 1: has rewired how students think and feel. Phil Frederico, an

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Speaker 1: attorney for the school system, said, as a result of

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Speaker 1: the addictive nature of these algorithms and platforms, children are

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Speaker 1: spending too much time on the cell phones. Certainly the

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Speaker 1: content is problematic as well, but it's really these platforms

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Speaker 1: and really these algorithms that are getting them to stay

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Speaker 1: on their phones repeatedly interrupting their time at school. We

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Speaker 1: want to get the companies to respect children and treat

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Speaker 1: them the way that they should be treated and not

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Speaker 1: as a profit center. So we want them to change

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Speaker 1: their algorithms, change their platforms so that we don't have

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Speaker 1: this problem in the future. And I think that that

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Speaker 1: comment from the attorney for the school system really speaks

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Speaker 1: to what I'm talking about, right, Like it's much harder

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Speaker 1: and much more complex to be to say we need

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Speaker 1: to change the way that social media is showing up

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Speaker 1: generally as opposed to as slapping a law that keeps

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Speaker 1: young people away from it. And so I agree with

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Speaker 1: what this what this attorney for the school system is saying.

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Speaker 1: Anna Arundel is actually the eighth Maryland school system to

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Speaker 1: go after social media platforms on behalf of students. Something

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Speaker 1: that the lawsuit really makes clear is that even though

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Speaker 1: they're suing the social media platforms, they say that the

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Speaker 1: issues really start at home. And I thought that was

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Speaker 1: such an interesting point. That you know, we are all

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Speaker 1: probably on our phones too much. You might even say

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Speaker 1: that some of us are a little bit addicted to

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Speaker 1: our phones. And if a kid's grown up right, their

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Speaker 1: parents or their guardian is on their phones day and night.

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Speaker 1: If when they come home from school they see their

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Speaker 1: parent on their phones or on their iPad or on

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Speaker 1: their screen day and night, how would they be able

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Speaker 1: to set any kind of a different standard, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: how would they know that there's something different? And so

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Speaker 1: this lawsuit I find it really interesting, and that they're

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Speaker 1: going after the platforms will also make it clear that

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Speaker 1: some of the dynamics that they're seeing in classrooms that

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Speaker 1: are not super healthy around phone use really do start

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Speaker 1: at home.

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Speaker 2: That is very interesting. I mean, you know, on the

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Speaker 2: one hand, I totally agree with those quotes. On the

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Speaker 2: other it does feel a little weird that county school

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Speaker 2: district is like leading the charge here. It feels like

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Speaker 2: there are so many other or entities within our government,

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Speaker 2: you know, like the FTC, Congress, I don't know, probably

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of others, you know, state level entities

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Speaker 2: that should be doing something. I guess a lot of

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Speaker 2: them are busy passing like age verification laws, but you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe they could take a look at what some of

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Speaker 2: these counties are doing and take some inspiration there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I actually don't find it surprising at all. I'm

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Speaker 1: a former educator. I stopped teaching like quite a while ago,

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Speaker 1: but even when I was teaching, phone use was a

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Speaker 1: problem in classes. I can only imagine what it is

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Speaker 1: like now. I bet that it is disruptive to schools

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Speaker 1: to the point where they feel like just having there

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Speaker 1: be policies at the school level that's like no phones,

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Speaker 1: you get in trouble if you ever phone is not

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Speaker 1: enough that these educators probably feel like addiction to social

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Speaker 1: media is disruptive enough that like they need to take

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Speaker 1: it to the next level, and not even just like

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Speaker 1: the distraction of having phones in schools. Like I again,

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Speaker 1: I have not taught in a long time, so I

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Speaker 1: don't I can't speak for sure, but I can only

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Speaker 1: imagine that the social disruption that social media platforms introduces

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Speaker 1: into an education system is also a problem, and that

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Speaker 1: they probably are just completely fed up with that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. You know, there's both things

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Speaker 2: are huge problems, right Like, people are addicted to their phones,

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Speaker 2: have no attention span anymore for anything. And it's not

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Speaker 2: just kids, right Like, we can't just blame children, you know,

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Speaker 2: I unfortunately spend half my days on zoom calls talking

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Speaker 2: with you know, accomplished, smart adults. And even still, you

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Speaker 2: can tell that half the people are not paying attention

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Speaker 2: to the conversation, are like, you know, checking Slack or

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Speaker 2: responding to an email or looking at Facebook or who

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Speaker 2: even knows what they're doing. Social media has really, I think,

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Speaker 2: like done something to all of our brains, all of

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Speaker 2: our attention spans. And then also, like you mentioned the

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Speaker 2: other harmful dynamics that social media has probably introduced into

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Speaker 2: schools of kids getting into fights and posting inappropriate photos

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Speaker 2: of each other or others. Yeah, I bet schools are mad.

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Speaker 1: And I do think that we should really be setting

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Speaker 1: a different standard for our young people. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: one thing for me to be an adult and to

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Speaker 1: have my brain chemistry be so altered by the dazzle

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Speaker 1: of social media platforms that I can no longer sit

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Speaker 1: through an hour long zoom meeting that I didn't really

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Speaker 1: care about in the first place. It's another to be

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Speaker 1: passing that on to somebody whose brain is not even

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Speaker 1: fully formed, which it sounds like what we are doing

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Speaker 1: to our young people, and we are allowing platforms to

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Speaker 1: profit from it. And so we'll keep an eye on

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Speaker 1: this lawsuit and see where it goes.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: Speaking of platforms profiting off of all of us, it

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Speaker 1: is no secret that Facebook really cannot be trusted to

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Speaker 1: put anything ahead of profit. Not the wellbeing of our kids,

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Speaker 1: not our democracy, not our privacy, none of it, and

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Speaker 1: certainly not the wellbeing of their users. They're actually pretty

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Speaker 1: open about it, and maybe that's why we see so

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Speaker 1: many of those super fake chain letters that you see

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Speaker 1: on Facebook. Maybe you've seen like your weird aunt or

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Speaker 1: your uncle post it where it's like, I do not

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Speaker 1: give Facebook permission to take any of my pictures. Post

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Speaker 1: this in your status and tell Facebook that you don't

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Speaker 1: give them permission. If your Facebook is anything like mine,

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Speaker 1: you maybe have seen someone make a post like that,

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Speaker 1: and those things are not true. They're just like fake

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Speaker 1: chain letters. And that's one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 1: wanted to talk a bit about this zd net article

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Speaker 1: that came out today with instructions on how to opt

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Speaker 1: out from Facebook using some of your data to train AI,

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Speaker 1: because it sounds exactly like one of those Facebook chain

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Speaker 1: statuses that goes around, only it's real, So we'll link

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Speaker 1: to it in the show notes. But basically, there's a

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Speaker 1: set of tools that you can use with your Facebook

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Speaker 1: account to control what they call quote off Facebook activity.

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Speaker 1: The article provides instructions on how to break the link

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Speaker 1: between your Facebook activity and all other data they collect

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Speaker 1: about you from their advertising networks around the rest of

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Speaker 1: the Internet. So do we think that Facebook is going

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Speaker 1: to actually honor those requests? Honestly, I don't know, Probably not, maybe,

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Speaker 1: but I think it's maybe worth a shot, even if

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Speaker 1: it only keeps some of your data from being used

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Speaker 1: in their latest AI model. I did it, Mike. I

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Speaker 1: know that you did it, and I think folks should

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Speaker 1: consider it too well. Put the article in the show notes.

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Speaker 1: But if you see that floating around Facebook, it is

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Speaker 1: not just your weird aunt not understanding how social media works.

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Speaker 1: It is a real thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting that they made those tools available since

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Speaker 2: obviously they don't want people to do that. I hope

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Speaker 2: people do it. I don't know. It's such a weird

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Speaker 2: time with AI and like these models being trained, and

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Speaker 2: I just keep thinking about that group of authors that

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Speaker 2: we've talked about, like Sarah Silverman who's suing open AI

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Speaker 2: because chat GBT was just repeating large sections of her

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Speaker 2: book unaltered, right, because the AI had been trained on

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Speaker 2: her book and it was just repeating it verbatim, like

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Speaker 2: long passages. And so if it's can do that with

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Speaker 2: a book, it can do that with our conversations that

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Speaker 2: we're being you know, we're having on social media. And

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Speaker 2: I just it's just very uncomfortable, and you know, you

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Speaker 2: give up all rights to it, and what do you

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Speaker 2: get from it? You get nothing from it, right, Like

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Speaker 2: it's just harvesting your data. So op the hell out,

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Speaker 2: op to the hell out. I know I've talked about this.

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Speaker 2: People are like, we've heard you, We've heard your soapbox

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Speaker 2: spiel about this. But I fundamentally believe that we have

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Speaker 2: got to push back on the dynamic that just because

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Speaker 2: we use these platforms, anything and everything that we do

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Speaker 2: on these platforms is for the taking, for the mining,

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Speaker 2: for no benefit to us.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, I think folks should opt out. I

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Speaker 1: would love to opt out, Like I would like very

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Speaker 1: much to be excluded from this narrative. I think that

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Speaker 1: folks should be opting out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And to be clear, it's not like there's a

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Speaker 2: setting you could, like a single setting on Facebook that

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Speaker 2: you can just globally opt out from all of it,

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Speaker 2: like they're still going after our data, but it's something

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Speaker 2: that can be done in the ongoing process of trying

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Speaker 2: to protect our privacy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And to be clear, I'm not even sure, like

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Speaker 1: we really can't trust Facebook, and so I'm not even

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Speaker 1: sure that if people take the steps that I've taken

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Speaker 1: and that are described in this piece, that Facebook would

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Speaker 1: honor that. But mostly I just want people to know

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Speaker 1: that it is a real thing from Facebook. The fact

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Speaker 1: that it kind of mimics or mirrors fake chain letters

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Speaker 1: that we see on Facebook a lot as unfortunate. But

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Speaker 1: I just want people to know that if you see

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Speaker 1: this on Facebook, it is legit. It is real. Look

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Speaker 1: into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if nothing else, maybe doing this is going to

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Speaker 2: be our ticket into the next big class action lawsuit

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Speaker 2: against Facebook when they fail to honor these requests.

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Speaker 1: Oh I did my I know. I've told people that

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Speaker 1: the data is coming gone, So if you did not

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Speaker 1: fill out your form to be part of that class action.

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Speaker 1: When I get my twelve dollars, best believe I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: suspect I'll happily take twelve dollars from a zuck. I

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Speaker 1: don't care if he threatened to beat up Elon Musk. Take.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting my money, I get your money. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: this next story is really wild. It is such a

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Speaker 1: weird story. I try to usually give a heads up

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Speaker 1: if a story involves something that's gonna be like heavy,

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Speaker 1: I honestly don't even know how to give a heads

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Speaker 1: up because it's so Clowns are involved, face painting is involved,

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Speaker 1: creepy behavior from an authority figure is involved. So if

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Speaker 1: those are things that you have a problem with, just

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Speaker 1: know that that's what we're gonna get into right now.

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Speaker 1: So USA Today is in a deep dive investigation into

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Speaker 1: this geography professor named Joseph Takosh, who has a self

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Speaker 1: described clown fetish and has been using his position as

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Speaker 1: a tenured track professor at Nickels State University in Louisiana

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Speaker 1: to get female students to let him paint their faces

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Speaker 1: in clown makeup and take photos and video of them.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's let's it's a doozy. Let's just keep going.

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Speaker 1: So his time at the university is raising questions about

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Speaker 1: background checks for educators at the university and whether the

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Speaker 1: university puts students at risk by not taking this behavior seriously.

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Speaker 1: USA Today reports that Takosh's interactions with students and open

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Speaker 1: discussion of his fetish happened in both mainstream and tailored

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Speaker 1: digital spaces. He popped into Facebook groups geared toward new

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Speaker 1: students and niche forums on websites like Reddit, he posted

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Speaker 1: videos on YouTube. In one Reddit post, on a forum

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Speaker 1: meant to highlight hard to believe stories, he posted pictures

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Speaker 1: of several women in white face paint. So it sounds

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Speaker 1: like a couple of different students initially agreed to let

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Speaker 1: him paint their faces for money. One student says that

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Speaker 1: he insisted on picking her up at her place of

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Speaker 1: residence and taking her back to the geography building, and

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Speaker 1: it sounds like when they were like discussing this via text,

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Speaker 1: she found the whole thing weird and eventually stopped replying

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Speaker 1: to his text before the meetup, ever, happened. When she

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Speaker 1: stopped replying, he sent her a message with no text,

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Speaker 1: only a picture of himself in full cloud makeup that

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Speaker 1: he sent after midnight USA today. Had a picture of

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Speaker 1: this image. It is like going to haunt my nightmares.

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Speaker 1: It is terrifying, the student said, quote there was some

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Speaker 1: negative intention with sending me that photo. It's definitely burned

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Speaker 1: in my mind. Me too, it's burned in my mind too.

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Speaker 2: I haven't even seen it, and it's burned into my mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a pretty disturbing image. There's no text message,

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Speaker 1: there's no text in the message, it's just a picture.

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Speaker 1: But he is wearing a shirt that says I'm not

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Speaker 1: a failure. So weird, just weird. I don't even know

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Speaker 1: I don't even know what to make of it. It's

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Speaker 1: so strange. So another student basically said the same thing

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Speaker 1: happened to her that he went online and said like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'll give you money if you let me paint your face.

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Speaker 1: He insisted on coming to pick her up at our

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Speaker 1: place of residence and take her back to the geography building.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like that was the line that was like, no,

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Speaker 1: that's so weird, which would make these women stop replying.

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Speaker 1: So over the years, two students complained to the university

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Speaker 1: and some even complained online, but the university, it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: just never followed up. So before coming to teach at

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Speaker 1: Nichols State, Takosh was teaching at Kent State, and students

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Speaker 1: want to know what exactly happened when he was at

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Speaker 1: Kent State to make him leave and start teaching at

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Speaker 1: Nichols because when he was teaching there, he was also

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Speaker 1: a student. He was finishing his doctorate, which is like

435
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,359
Speaker 1: fairly common for in academia, and so the university said

436
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: that they cannot share any information about anything that went

437
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: down at his time at Kent State, but because he

438
00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 1: was technically a student, citing FURPA, the federal privacy laws

439
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: for students. Now, it does seem like that maybe the

440
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: university is kind of just using that as an excuse.

441
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: Like the USA Today article spoke to some experts who

442
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 1: said that they are really taking a specific kind of

443
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,159
Speaker 1: interpretation of FURPA in a way that kind of sounds

444
00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: like they might be trying to just avoid accountability and

445
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: like avoid having to say what they knew and why

446
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,560
Speaker 1: they didn't tell other universities about what happened at this

447
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: guy's tenure at the university. But in any event, Kent

448
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: State never gave any information to Nickel State that prevented

449
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: him from taking up a job there. So according to

450
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 1: the USA Today piece, it honestly does kind of sound

451
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: like Kent State just didn't do a ton after students

452
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: complained the peace reads. Kent State would not say whether

453
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: any actions were taken after the student's reports, but Eric Mansfield,

454
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: a spokesperson for the university, said the police department confirmed

455
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: that the students who filed police reports were provided with

456
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: university resources, which would include other non criminal avenues to

457
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: pursue as a general police practice. However, the student who

458
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: made the complaint at Kent State says that she does

459
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: not recall police offering her any services. She said that

460
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: she did not want counseling. What she wanted was this

461
00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: professor investigated, which, yeah, I can imagine why. The Kent

462
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 1: State University spokesperson said that the university monitors social media,

463
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: but that colleges quote can't always see or track every

464
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: mention on social media, which again, it just to me,

465
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: does I'm sorry kind of sound like a cop out.

466
00:26:05,359 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: So students are now asking why the university did not

467
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: do a background check of this guy's social media because

468
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: his behavior, the self described clown fetish and bragging about

469
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 1: painting students' faces and sharing images and videos of the

470
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: students whose faces that he painted were all pretty widely

471
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 1: available on this guy's social media. His LinkedIn used a

472
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:31,160
Speaker 1: pretty obvious reference to his name and profession, Joeography, which

473
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 1: was also his Reddit name. So if you looked at

474
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: the name that he used on his LinkedIn and this

475
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: googled it, his Reddit account would come up where he

476
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,720
Speaker 1: wrote quote I convince pretty girls to let me paint

477
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: their faces, along with a photo of multiple women in

478
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: white face paint that he had wrote on Reddit. On YouTube,

479
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: a YouTube account under the name Joe Takosh included at

480
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: least two videos in twenty twenty of a man throwing

481
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: pies at women. One of the videos features a young

482
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: woman also seen in the screenshots from Takosh's Reddit account.

483
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: There's also a comment quote, you can have a video

484
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: of her tied up getting pied via cash app. So

485
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,639
Speaker 1: it sounds to me like not only was he taking

486
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: these pictures and videos sharing them on the internet pretty

487
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 1: openly saying like yeah, I convinced them to let me

488
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: do this, and it sounds like maybe engaging in some

489
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 1: sort of scheme where he would share additional photos for money.

490
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: Question mark.

491
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 2: Maybe these were his students. That is the problem here.

492
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 2: There is like a special trust of university professors with students,

493
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 2: and it's a very one directional power relationship and exploiting

494
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: that is not only ethically inappropriate, but it is it

495
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: like directly harms the students who have been trust entrusted

496
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: in the care of the instructor. So I just want

497
00:27:56,960 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 2: to be super clear that like that is what is

498
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: so inappropriate here. Thrown pies fine, but living out your

499
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 2: sexual fantasies with your students never okay.

500
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, and like describing it to students people who you

501
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,880
Speaker 1: have a should be having a trust relationship with and

502
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: a relationship where you just implicitly have power over them.

503
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: Describing your fetishes to them is inappropriate. Bringing these conversations

504
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,879
Speaker 1: into the classroom is inappropriate. Having these conversations online is like,

505
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: it's all inappropriate because he's their professor. You know, if

506
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: he was throwing pies at a of age woman consensually,

507
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: you know who was not his student. Okay, fine, but

508
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: it's it's the it's bringing it into a relationship where

509
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: you have power over somebody and you are abusing their trust.

510
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 1: Like even in the way that he talks about it

511
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: himself on Reddit where I convince pretty girls, it's pretty

512
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 1: clear to me what he what's going on, Like it

513
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:02,479
Speaker 1: is He's not like he's trying to hide it. This

514
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: is some like letters taunting the police kind of style

515
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: stuff where he basically is admitting what he's doing. Now,

516
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: the reason that we know any of this is actually

517
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 1: because of a student journalist. Nicol State. Student journalist Sally

518
00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 1: and Torres started hearing these weird rumors about a professor

519
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: who was giving out extra credit to students who would

520
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: allow him to paint their faces, which at first, she

521
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 1: just dismissed as like a weird rumor, but then Takosh

522
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,000
Speaker 1: emailed students to tell them that the university was not

523
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: renewing his contract. He said the reason why they were

524
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: not renewing his contract was because he gave out too

525
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 1: many a's to students, which like likely story that is

526
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,360
Speaker 1: such a that sounds to me like a cover story

527
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:44,000
Speaker 1: where you're like, oh, I want to go out as

528
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: a hero. I want people to be like, well, mister

529
00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: Takosh really was like sticking up for us. It's so unfair.

530
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: The university is like getting rid of them. So you

531
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: know who else found this a little bit suspicious? Sally

532
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: and Torres, so she started looking into this. At one point,

533
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: he said that there was a committee at the university

534
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 1: to look into great inflation, and she was like, I

535
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 1: don't think we actually have that committee. She didn't do it,

536
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 1: No such committee exists. So she ends up breaking the

537
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 1: story for her campus paper and getting him on video

538
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,680
Speaker 1: defending himself, saying that he basically just had an assignment

539
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: because he's a geography professor, where students were required to

540
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: paint their faces to learn about other cultures. Even that

541
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: to me is like I'm the geography professor, but I

542
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 1: don't understand how painting your face like a clown whatever.

543
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: Either way, that was his explanation for it. But the

544
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 1: day that that piece went live, he resigned. And so

545
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: that just goes to show you that student journalists are

546
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: always going to get that dirt. They're gonna sniff it out,

547
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 1: they're gonna find the truth. So shout out to Sally

548
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: an Torres for really, you know, getting the truth and

549
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: not letting the university sweep that's under the rug, because

550
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: it does sound like if left to their own devices,

551
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: the university would have taken no action because they didn't

552
00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: want it to be clear just how much they had

553
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: to put students at risk by not taking this kind

554
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: of behavior seriously.

555
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 2: It should not be tolerated. And I could see how

556
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: it would be really easy for the university to ignore

557
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: these complaints almost because they're so like unusual, you know,

558
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: and just kind of like shrug them off as like

559
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: something weird that's not harmful or not like some kind

560
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: of sexually motivated breach of trust. So good for that

561
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 2: student journalist, Sally and Torres. Yeah, I wonder what's next

562
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 2: for her.

563
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want her to go on to be like

564
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 1: the next Ronan Pharaoh, just like taken down Creeps left

565
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: and right.

566
00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe she'll come on the pod.

567
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: So, speaking of creeps, we've got a little bit of

568
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: good news in the Taking Down Creeps universe. We've told

569
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: you about Ruby Freeman and Shaymaas, the mother and daughter

570
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 1: dubo of election workers in Georgia who Trump and Rude

571
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: Giuliani waged a racist, sexist campaign of lies against baselessly

572
00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 1: claiming that they tampered with votes in the twenty twenty election. Well,

573
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,480
Speaker 1: this week, a federal judge ruled that Rudy Giuliani is

574
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: liable for defaming them. He will have to pay their

575
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: legal fees. He's already paid about ninety thousand dollars in

576
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: their legal fees. There's going to be another trial to

577
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: determine how much he has to pay in additional damages,

578
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: and it could be in the millions. So Giuliani's mouth

579
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: has been writing checks and his butt cannot cash, and

580
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: it is finally catching up with him. New York mag

581
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: reports that Giuliani told the court in Georgia that he

582
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 1: could no longer afford to contest that he made defamatory

583
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: statements against Ruby and Shay because he could no longer

584
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 1: pay to access his own electronic records, which were seized

585
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 1: by the FBI when they took his phones in twenty

586
00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: twenty one. Since then, he's been paying twenty thousand dollars

587
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 1: per month in hosting fees to access his records. His

588
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,120
Speaker 1: lawyers say that this is not an admission of guilt

589
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: on his part, because you know, that would require taking

590
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 1: accountability for your own actions, which this is somebody who's

591
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 1: just not gonna do, but that this means that he

592
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: can no longer afford to contest the claims anymore. And

593
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: this is really funny. The judge overseeing the case ordered

594
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: Giuliani to forfeit because he had only handed over a

595
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: sliver of relevant documents in discovery, though Juliani did provide

596
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: quote blobs of indecipherable data, so the judge was basically

597
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: just like enough already, dude, Like this is it's enough, already,

598
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 1: Like let's end this. The judge declared him liable for defamation,

599
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: and the intentional afflection of emotional distress could not happen

600
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: to a more deserving guy. I hope that Ruby and

601
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: Shay take this joker for every penny that he's worth.

602
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: You know. It sounds like he's been begging Trump to

603
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 1: pay for his legal fees, which like Trump don't even

604
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: pay his own bills. Talk about Charae, she don't pay,

605
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: Like he doesn't even pay his own bills. He's not

606
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: paying for Rudy Giuliani. And even if he did pay

607
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: for him, he probably wouldn't end up paying anyway. I

608
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: did read that Trump is holding a fundraiser, specif for Guliani,

609
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 1: but he's but like, that's it. He's not paying for

610
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 1: his legal bills. And yeah, this is why you shouldn't

611
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: have your mouth right checks that your butt can't cash.

612
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great to see, you know. And it also

613
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 2: we haven't brought it up in a little while, but

614
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 2: the theme of this season is present future right where

615
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 2: we're trying to look ahead to see which parts of

616
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 2: the present are gonna become more dominant in the future.

617
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 2: And once again here we have a defamation case where

618
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 2: the targets of a coordinated disinformation campaign successfully fought back

619
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 2: with a defamation lawsuit. We've seen that several times over

620
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 2: this season, and good for them, Like you said, it

621
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: couldn't happen to a more deserving dude.

622
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: More.

623
00:34:54,360 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 3: After a quick break, let's get right back into it.

624
00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 1: So, speaking of playing stupid games and winning stupid prizes

625
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,279
Speaker 1: when it comes to defamation. So, if you followed the

626
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: Johnny Depp Amber Heard defamation trial, we'd probably recall that

627
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: Amber Heard's lawyer described how she carried makeup in her

628
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 1: purse to cover bruises that Johnny Depp had given her

629
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: throughout their entire relationship. Her lawyer pulled up a specific

630
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: color correcting makeup palette from the makeup brand Malani. Mlani

631
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 1: then took to TikTok using footage from the trial where

632
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:39,879
Speaker 1: one of their staffers looks up the date that that

633
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: color correction palette was released, which is twenty seventeen. That

634
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 1: would have been after Heard and Depth's relationship ended, So

635
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: how could Amber have carried it their entire relationship? The

636
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: video pretty clearly implies that Milani has caught Amber herd

637
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: in a lie, you know, a cosmetics based lie at

638
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: that allah legally blonde, But her attorney never actually said

639
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: that Amber used that specific brand of makeup or that

640
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:08,400
Speaker 1: specific palette. She was using it as a prop to

641
00:36:08,440 --> 00:36:11,399
Speaker 1: demonstrate like, oh, a color correction kit like this one

642
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: that I'm holding. So this was back when brands were

643
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: really jumping into talking about that trial in a way

644
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: that I found so distasteful. After facing backlash for that TikTok,

645
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 1: Malani released a statement saying that they quote weren't taking

646
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: a formal stance on the trial, evidence or future outcome

647
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: of the case. But I truly do not know how

648
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 1: they can say that when they made a TikTok where

649
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,240
Speaker 1: they commented on the evidence, tried to comment on the trial,

650
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,319
Speaker 1: and so you can't really say like, oh, well, we

651
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 1: aren't weighing the evidence and commenting on the trial after

652
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: you have commented on the trial, specifically commenting on what

653
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: you thought was evident. So it is was pretty clear

654
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: to me at that time why brands would want to

655
00:36:55,880 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 1: get in on this. According to BuzzFeed, that particular piece

656
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 1: of content that Mlani put out was their most watched

657
00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,799
Speaker 1: TikTok of all times. It got five million views, and

658
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: prior to this, none of their tiktoks had broken half

659
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: a million views. So this week Milani posted on social

660
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: media in honor of Women's Equality Day. They wrote shout

661
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 1: out to all the inspirational, powerful women in our lives.

662
00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: Happy Women's Equality Day today and every day, and they

663
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:24,440
Speaker 1: got rightfully cooked. Because if there's one thing I know

664
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: about the Internet, it never forgets. Twitter user Female Tragedy

665
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 1: Quote tweeted their Equality Day tweet saying, do you remember

666
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: when Amber Heard used a color correcting Malani palette as

667
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: a court prop and y'all took her out of context

668
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 1: to frame her as a liar and created a space

669
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 1: for others to laugh at her. Now it's Happy Women's

670
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: Day lol. And honestly, I think that that Twitter user

671
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 1: is exactly right. And I wanted to talk about this

672
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: because I really hope that this is what's happening to

673
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: this brand on social media shows other brands that there

674
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: are certain things that you really should not weigh in

675
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:03,280
Speaker 1: on in a joke e cute see TikTok. If Malani

676
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 1: the brand felt it was important to release a statement

677
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:11,239
Speaker 1: about their makeup palette being used in the trial, they

678
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: could have released a statement making a cute sea TikTok

679
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: with like a cute sea song, is not an appropriate

680
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 1: way to weigh in publicly on a trial that at

681
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: its heart has domestic violence, right like it's not cute.

682
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: That is not that should not be funny fodder for

683
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,800
Speaker 1: like social media engagement. And if you engage in that way,

684
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:35,160
Speaker 1: you can't then be surprised when people don't forget it.

685
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: You can't then be surprised when when you try to

686
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 1: come back and say, oh, happy women's a quality day,

687
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: we support women. That people remember because nobody forced you

688
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: to do that. That was your choice. And so if

689
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: you make the choice to wade into that conversation in

690
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:52,319
Speaker 1: a way that's that distasteful, it's really nobody's fault but

691
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,360
Speaker 1: your own when people remember that that's what you chose

692
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: to do.

693
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 2: Boy, I hope you're right that we're coming to the

694
00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:03,160
Speaker 2: end of those times. But like it's not like we're

695
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,480
Speaker 2: talking about two thousand and two, like the you know,

696
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 2: the dawn of the modern Internet or something. It's this

697
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 2: was what was it, like twenty twenty two? It was

698
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: like a year ago, right, and like, yeah, this was

699
00:39:17,960 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 2: like last year. Yeah, it's like, no kidding, a makeup

700
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 2: brand whose target audience is primarily women, maybe you shouldn't

701
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 2: weigh in on a domestic violence case and like have

702
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: a QT video making fun of the woman like it

703
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 2: would seem like that would be pretty obvious, but I

704
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 2: guess it wasn't, And so I guess I hope you

705
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 2: I don't know. Yeah, what do you think it seems

706
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: like it should have been obvious to me.

707
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: Well, I would actually argue that the Amber Heard situation

708
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,319
Speaker 1: was probably one of the more high profile cases of

709
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 1: this happening. But I have seen a flurry this kind

710
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: of thing happening, not on the same level, like not

711
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: not where it's brands talking about a high profile incident

712
00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,040
Speaker 1: involving domestic violence, but like, brands have really been waiting

713
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 1: into misogyny lately in a way that I think is

714
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 1: really stark and really upsetting. A couple of months ago,

715
00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 1: there was this I don't even know the right word

716
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 1: for it, because I want to I want to use

717
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: the word feud, but even that I think fuels that

718
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,919
Speaker 1: kind of misconception that I'm talking about. There was some

719
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,479
Speaker 1: sort of situation between two famous women, Selena Gomez and

720
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 1: Haley Bieber. And these are two women who are both

721
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: in the public eye. The story around them was framed

722
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 1: as if these two public, famous women were having some

723
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: kind of a public spat or feud. I don't really

724
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: follow either of them that closely to really be able

725
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: to say, like, you know, what was going on specifically,

726
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 1: But the Internet seemed to be suggesting that Selena Gomez

727
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: was the victim of like bullying by Hailey Bieber, and

728
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: so it would seem to me that like Selena Gomez

729
00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 1: was the was painted as the more sympathetic of these two.

730
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 1: And so then it's one thing to be like, Oh,

731
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: I'm somebody who cares about celebrity gossip or what's happening

732
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 1: with celebrities, and I'm picking a side on these two

733
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 1: famous women who seem to be having some sort of

734
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: a something between each other. But then here come the

735
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 1: brands wading in, and then you have you have like

736
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 1: big brands tweeting about it like oh, We're team Selena,

737
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 1: And to me, that just that just seems like misogyny.

738
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: It just seems like another way that brands have realized

739
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:35,800
Speaker 1: that they it is profitable and popular to publicly crap

740
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:39,360
Speaker 1: on women who are perceived in a negative light in

741
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,640
Speaker 1: some way that you can jump on the bandwagon. So like,

742
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: I don't love it when individuals do it. I don't

743
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 1: think that's great, but like that's one thing. It's quite

744
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: another for a brand who has like a social media

745
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 1: team and a social media editor, professionals decide, you know

746
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: what we should really wade into, is piling on this

747
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 1: young woman in the public eye. There's another celebrity, Rachel Zgi,

748
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,400
Speaker 1: who is the star of the new remake of the

749
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 1: Snow White movie, who I feel like we are watching

750
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: that happen in real time. The women's brand girl Boss,

751
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: actually had to apologize for an Instagram post that they

752
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: put up kind of like making fun of a Rachel

753
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 1: Zegler because she's been taking a lot of heat for

754
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 1: coming off as like quote smug in interviews around this

755
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 1: new Snow White movie, and so they I saw this

756
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: Instagram post where they were like, We're sorry that we

757
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 1: piled on. We didn't realize how misogynistic that looked. Blah

758
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,359
Speaker 1: blah blah. I actually applaud them for actually taking down

759
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,319
Speaker 1: this post and apologizing. Then I saw people in the

760
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: comments that are like, I guess Rachel Zegler, even though

761
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: she's in Snow White, does not care for Snow White

762
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: the fairy tale, and it's made that clear. And people

763
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: are in the comments of that girl Boss apology were like, well,

764
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:53,640
Speaker 1: when is Rachel Zegler gonna apologize for what she said

765
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 1: about snow White, and it's like, well, snow White is fictional.

766
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: She does not really exist, so that would be difficult

767
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,280
Speaker 1: for her to do. But yeah, so I would actually

768
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: argue that it is a trend when brands feel like

769
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: they need to hop on the bandwagon of hating young

770
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,279
Speaker 1: starlets in the public eye who are taking a lot

771
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: of heat. And I hope that the way that people

772
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: responded to Malani's Women's Equality Day posts sends a message

773
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 1: two other brands who are interested in getting on the

774
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: misogynistic women hate bandwagon that it's not worth it. Your

775
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: cheap engagement is not worth that people don't want to

776
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,839
Speaker 1: see brands trafficking in this kind of misogyny and if

777
00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: you do, we will remember. So when you make your

778
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: little Quality Day post or when you make your little

779
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: Women's History Month post, people are going to remember. Because

780
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: the Internet, if it's one thing we're going to do

781
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: is have a long memory.

782
00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's absolutely true. You know, social media can feel

783
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 2: pretty crummy a lot of the time, and you know,

784
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 2: brands want to be there because they want to be

785
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: reaching people. And I guess I can see how that

786
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 2: would be challenging for them to navigate, like wanting to

787
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 2: get an engagement without stepping on or stepping into things

788
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: that they don't want to be into. But like maybe

789
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 2: they should just be a little bit more conscientious and

790
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: less misogynistic. But I don't know. It's a weird time

791
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: in social media, right.

792
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:25,880
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great segue to this article that I

793
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about. I wouldn't really call this news,

794
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: but I did want to mention it. This interesting piece

795
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,960
Speaker 1: and Business Insider called social media is Dead. Basically, the

796
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 1: piece uses Instagram as a lens to chart where we've

797
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: been and where we're going with social media. So, if

798
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 1: the start of Instagram was the start of something that

799
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:45,439
Speaker 1: felt new and exciting on social media, now, the fact

800
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: that most people, regular people do not even really post

801
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 1: on the Instagram public feeds anymore kind of signals this shift,

802
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,000
Speaker 1: and maybe that shift is suggesting that social media is

803
00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: kind of over. So the piece points out that regular people,

804
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: by the I mean people who are like not influencers

805
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: or you know, not brands, or don't have any kind

806
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: of professional or monetary reason to be on Instagram. Those

807
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,240
Speaker 1: people we're not really spending a lot of time posting

808
00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:16,920
Speaker 1: to our public feeds anymore. Those folks they are posting

809
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: in the close friends Instagram story and in dms. This

810
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 1: is especially true for younger people, Like younger people are

811
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: just not posting on their public grid. And one of

812
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: the reasons why they say this is is that the

813
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:32,680
Speaker 1: Instagram feed just no longer feels like a good place

814
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 1: to post content from regular folks who like, don't have

815
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: a professional camera, are not trying to snag brand deals

816
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 1: or something like that. And so you know, if Instagram,

817
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: when you scroll the feed, it just feels like a

818
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 1: place for more and more curated, polished pictures from people

819
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: who are trying to make money and using it as

820
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,719
Speaker 1: a revenue generating stream. Where does that lead people who

821
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:58,759
Speaker 1: just want to post pictures for their friends, certainly not

822
00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: their feed. And the article talks about how people are

823
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,719
Speaker 1: spending time and these like more intimate closed places your

824
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:10,920
Speaker 1: close friends feed on Instagram, DMS, discord places like that,

825
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: but brands can't really show up there, right, And so

826
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: if brands are not invited to like your discord server

827
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: or whatever, how like the fact that social media has

828
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: really built up this entire infrastructure around this like capitalistic

829
00:46:27,360 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: thing of like brands reaching out to you and like

830
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 1: serving you ads. What does that mean for this This

831
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: like the scaffolding of this infrastructure that has been built

832
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: up around that. And so, you know, the article is

833
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: really interesting. I definitely think folks should read it. Something

834
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: that they don't talk about in the piece that I

835
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: think is maybe part of why social media feels so

836
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,400
Speaker 1: weird right now, is that I think people are just

837
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: really tired. Like I think that social media used to

838
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: feel fun, Like when Instagram first came out, it felt exciting,

839
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:02,839
Speaker 1: it felt like a new thing, and that when Instagram

840
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: made this shift toward being more creator focused, like influencer

841
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: focused and brand focused, they started rolling out all of

842
00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 1: these hoops that people had to jump through just to

843
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: get any kind of traction on the platform, just so

844
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: your friends would see your pictures. And who's got time

845
00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: for that? Who's got the energy for that? If that's not,

846
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, part of your job, why would.

847
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:23,759
Speaker 2: You do that?

848
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 1: And so the piece is really interesting. I think it

849
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,399
Speaker 1: really speaks to a vibe that I have felt more

850
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: and more that I don't know, something has shifted with

851
00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 1: social media, and I feel it. I'm curious if folks

852
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: listening feel it. Mike, you barely do social media, so

853
00:47:39,200 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what your gauge would even be.

854
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's an interesting thing to think about, you know.

855
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 2: I can't help but suspect that it's related to the

856
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: enormous shift that the Internet has undergone over the past

857
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 2: twenty five years from a radical distributed thing to a

858
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 2: highly centralized handful of apps owned by an even smaller

859
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 2: handful of companies, all of whom make their living on

860
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: sales of ads. Right, Like, we've allowed the Internet to

861
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 2: become a place where brands pay to market themselves to people.

862
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:31,840
Speaker 2: And I, you know, I guess we've always been supported

863
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 2: by advertising, everything always has and there's nothing inherently wrong

864
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 2: in it. But allowing the Internet to become completely dependent

865
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 2: on it, and not just that, but like oriented around

866
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:51,560
Speaker 2: making spaces safe for brands and also connecting people in

867
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 2: a way that really facilitates selling brands ads to reach

868
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 2: all of those people. It just leaves out the connection

869
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,799
Speaker 2: that makes people want to participate. Uh so, yeah, I

870
00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 2: think you're You're right. You know, I personally haven't had

871
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 2: any like meaningful social media presence in a long time.

872
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: It's most of what I do on the Internet is

873
00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 2: you know, group chats or like discord servers with people

874
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:24,120
Speaker 2: that I know. I am really curious about our listeners

875
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: and what they where they spend their time online? Is

876
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 2: it is it discord? Is it Facebook groups? Is it? Uh?

877
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 2: Maybe it is Instagram? I don't know, but uh, I

878
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 2: would love to hear from folks at hello at tangoty

879
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 2: dot com.

880
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 1: So a couple of things about that. One is that

881
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: One is that according to Adam Oseri, one of my

882
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 1: personal nemesiss tech tech nemesis, he admits that people are

883
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 1: still consuming content on Instagram that's not down, but sharing

884
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: content is way down. People are just He's flat out

885
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: admitted it that people of this are not sharing content

886
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: on Instagram. So that definitely mirrors what you're saying. But

887
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: about the ads, I think that we have really this

888
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: is not a fully fleshed out thought to like, bear

889
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: with me. I don't I think that we have reached

890
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: peak ad. I think that the fact that when you

891
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:19,799
Speaker 1: used to open Uber, you would just type in where

892
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,319
Speaker 1: you were gonna go and you would see the thing

893
00:50:21,360 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: that's like, oh five minutes away. Now when you open

894
00:50:23,560 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: up Uber, you see a bunch of ads that are random,

895
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:28,400
Speaker 1: that make no sense. It's like, why are you offering

896
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 1: me a trip to Disney World. I'm trying to get

897
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 1: a ride across town right Like things that there, They're

898
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,920
Speaker 1: not even like transportation focused. They are sneaking more and

899
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: more ads into more and more parts of technology and

900
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,440
Speaker 1: the Internet places where ads did not used to be.

901
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 1: And so to me, what that says is that the

902
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: bubble is about to burst. That they are like, we

903
00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: like we have hit the apex of the attention economy,

904
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 1: and it's like we need to squeeze whatever else juice

905
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: is in this to like get our money's worth, because

906
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 1: I think something's not panning out. I think that people

907
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,720
Speaker 1: are just like I don't know. That is just my opinion,

908
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: that is my take. But I do think that what

909
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: you said about connection is so interesting because like that

910
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: was the point of the Internet in the first place.

911
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: It wasn't to show you a million ads and you know,

912
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 1: have the Internet experiences be boiled down to four apps

913
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:26,239
Speaker 1: that keep mirror changing to mirror each other. It used

914
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,320
Speaker 1: to be about connection and excitement. And in the Business

915
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: Insider article, they talked to Andrea Casanova, an influencer strategist

916
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: who basically says the same thing. She says culture in

917
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: general has kept a lot of people from showing up

918
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: because they don't think their life is aesthetic or they

919
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 1: don't think they're selling anything, so why would they post

920
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: to social media. I just don't have the lifestyle that

921
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,840
Speaker 1: all these creators have, so I don't know what I

922
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: would be sharing, and therefore I fall into this loop

923
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 1: of never sharing anything, and that just makes me so

924
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: sad because I can't help but going back to the

925
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:59,359
Speaker 1: early days of social media, where you would have one

926
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,439
Speaker 1: night out at the bar and you would come home

927
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: and post fifty pictures of the same group of friends

928
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 1: from the same night out, and you didn't care if

929
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: it wasn't aesthetic, you didn't care if like, the picture

930
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: of your food looks like vomit. You were sharing it

931
00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,080
Speaker 1: anyway because that's what we were all doing. And obviously

932
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 1: those days weren't perfect. I'm not going to say they were,

933
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: but I miss those days when you didn't feel like

934
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: you could be sidelined from your own digital experience because

935
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 1: it didn't measure up in some way. And it's exhausting

936
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: and crazy making to try to bend yourself into a

937
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 1: pretzel to meet this impossible aesthetic that you feel like

938
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: you have to have to embody just to show up online.

939
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 1: Like make social media fun again. Don't make it this

940
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: like anxious slog through resilient ads for stuff you don't need.

941
00:52:46,160 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 2: It is sad that she would say that, and like,

942
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 2: you know, feel like she didn't have anything, you know,

943
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: worthy of posting. But I get it. I totally get it.

944
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: I feel it. And just to be super clear, there's

945
00:52:57,200 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with advertising. We love our advertise you know.

946
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know, they support us, They allow us

947
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 2: to make this show. They support all of the amazing

948
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: outspoken talent. Our advertisers are the best. We love them, Mike.

949
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the good folks at Nissan and Hulu.

950
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 1: We obviously value their partnership.

951
00:53:18,800 --> 00:53:23,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, they support us. We're happy to support them

952
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,440
Speaker 2: because they're putting great stuff out there into the world.

953
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 2: But like, this is a show that we're making, and

954
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,120
Speaker 2: that's just a qualitatively different thing than social media, right,

955
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 2: these are different worlds, Like exactly, like you were just

956
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:39,839
Speaker 2: talking about it, you know, back in the day, you'd

957
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,759
Speaker 2: go out to a bar and you'd post like forty

958
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 2: terrible photographs of all of you out there and just

959
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: like one big batch, just like a dump, like blah,

960
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 2: here it is. And that was fine because nobody outside

961
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,239
Speaker 2: your immediate circle was going to see it. There was

962
00:53:53,280 --> 00:53:58,760
Speaker 2: no expectation that they would. But back then, the infrastructure

963
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 2: was set up to support that connection of you with

964
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:05,399
Speaker 2: your friends, and it's just become completely co opted, where

965
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 2: the distinction between, you know, a piece of software that's

966
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: meant to connect people and a piece of software that's

967
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:17,960
Speaker 2: meant to serve up entertainment has been eliminated because it's

968
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 2: just all been i don't know, combined into this entertainment

969
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: attention economy to all of our detriment, you know, like

970
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 2: ads on podcasts, the best ads in my me sharing

971
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 2: my photo of like hanging out with my niece and

972
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: nephew with some of my friends. No good.

973
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, there should be a place for people that just

974
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,480
Speaker 1: want to post their bad pictures where they have pit

975
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: stains or whatever, because certainly all those like go back,

976
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 1: go back and look at those pictures that we used

977
00:54:54,480 --> 00:54:56,080
Speaker 1: to post on Facebook back in the day, and like

978
00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: they're pit Like we didn't have filter, so you were

979
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,279
Speaker 1: just like sweaty and pit stains all the time, and

980
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: the flash it just always looks terrible, or it would

981
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: be like cringey statuses that were like little reference like

982
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: a song lyric or like a cryptic like a cryptic

983
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,520
Speaker 1: sentence where you're like like reading when I read those now,

984
00:55:16,520 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't even know what this was about,

985
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,640
Speaker 1: Like this is an inside joke that's so inside I

986
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 1: don't I don't even know what I'm saying. Anyway. What

987
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 1: I'm saying is like I think that we're all feeling

988
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: a shift. I don't necessarily think it's bad, because I

989
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: do think that when there's a shift, sometimes something interesting

990
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 1: or exciting or different is on the other end of it.

991
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I'm curious what people think. Let us know. Yeah,

992
00:55:40,680 --> 00:55:43,239
Speaker 1: I leave it there, and if folks want to chime in,

993
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: they can get in touch with me email at hello

994
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,719
Speaker 1: at tangoty dot com. If you want to support the

995
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: show and listen to ad free bonus content, check out

996
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: our patreon at patreon dot com slash tangody. We have

997
00:55:54,960 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: some exciting changes coming to the patreon soon. TBD say Mike,

998
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here.

999
00:56:02,920 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me Bridget. It's a pleasure talking with

1000
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 2: you as always, and we.

1001
00:56:06,560 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 1: Will talk to you soon. If you're looking for ways

1002
00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,319
Speaker 1: to support the show, check out our merch store at

1003
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:20,120
Speaker 1: tangoti dot com slash store. Got a story about an

1004
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,160
Speaker 1: interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi,

1005
00:56:22,480 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 1: You can reach us out Hello at tangody dot com.

1006
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at TENG

1007
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: Goody dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet

1008
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 1: was created by Me Bridget Tod. It's a production of

1009
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:36,240
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio and Unboss Creative, edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland

1010
00:56:36,280 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1011
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almada is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1012
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1013
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1014
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1015
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,960
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.