1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:06,960 Speaker 1: No one knows about the coffee pot. In nineteen eighty, 2 00:00:07,280 --> 00:00:10,559 Speaker 1: a man named Jack Tremmel is boarding a company plane. 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: Jack is in his fifties and has the look of 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,120 Speaker 1: a character actor from noir films of the nineteen forties, 5 00:00:16,760 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: or maybe a little Telly savalis Ko Jack. One employee 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 1: thought he was patent esque, as in general George s. 7 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: He's traveling with his wife, Helen, three employees, and a 8 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 1: couple of salespeople for Commodore, going from Chicago back to 9 00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,159 Speaker 1: Commodore's home base of California. It's a jet, but a 10 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: small jet, and so there are only two crew members, 11 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: the pilot and co pilot, and things are okay at first, 12 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:45,239 Speaker 1: But what no one knows is that every time the 13 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:47,960 Speaker 1: plane is in the air, the coffee pot tends to 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: slide around on the burn just a little, not really 15 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: enough to notice, but over time the pot has been 16 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:59,320 Speaker 1: chipping away at the insulation surrounding an electrical component. One 17 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: of Jack's employed starts to brew a pot of coffee, 18 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: and this pod is the last straw for the plane's 19 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: main power bus. There's a short The worn insulation prompts 20 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: an electrical fire. Pretty soon flames start to lick out 21 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: from the ceiling and smoke begins to fill the cabin. 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: One of the pilots attempts to put the fire out 23 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: with an extinguisher, but it's not working. The melting metal 24 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: drips like the coffee from the ceiling and Singe's skin. 25 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 1: The flames are creeping closer and closer to the fuel 26 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 1: tank As the pilots scramble looking for a place to land. 27 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,320 Speaker 1: Smoke begins to fill the lungs of Jack and his 28 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: fellow passengers. His eyes begin to grow distant. Those on 29 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 1: board begin to think this is it the end. The 30 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: air is running out, the smoke is taking over, and 31 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: there could be an explosion at any moment. Finally they 32 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: get the word that they're clear to land in Iowa. 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe, but no one is seriously hurt. 34 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 1: But it's not the most harrowing thing Jack Tremmel has experienced. 35 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: Jack has stared death in the face before, and did 36 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: it on a scale most of us could never imagine. 37 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: Those who knew him knew he was, in every way possible, 38 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: a survivor. That's important to know because in this story, 39 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: all roads lead to Jack. Four years after this near 40 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 1: fatal incident, he acquires Atari, and many years after that, 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: one of gaming's biggest urban legends starts to unfold. In 42 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 1: first grabbing and then selling Atari, Jack Tremmel will inadvertently 43 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: launch the biggest and most intriguing sword quest chapter of 44 00:02:49,760 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: them all. Here's former Atari game designer Howard Scott Warshaw 45 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: The Sword. 46 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: What I heard was, you know, Jack Trammel, who was 47 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,079 Speaker 2: part of the Trammels who ultimate took over Atari, bought 48 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: it from Warner. I heard that part of that acquisition 49 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: was he got a hold of the sword, which hadn't 50 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: been given out yet, And I heard that he kept 51 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 2: it in his home. He had it up on a 52 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,799 Speaker 2: plaque on a wall in his home, and that was 53 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 2: kind of cool, although I never verified that because Jack 54 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: never invited me over for dinner. 55 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 3: The sword there, it rests so close, and yet. 56 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 4: Yet it's well guarded. Tour To reach out and seize 57 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 4: it then attempt to get away, we'd have to be stark, 58 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 4: raving mad. 59 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 3: But how did it wind up here in the first place, 60 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 3: in this house gate known as California. The journey it 61 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 3: must have undergone. It belongs in our hands. 62 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 4: For we have suffered the trials and danger necessary to 63 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 4: wield it. Not this this Trammel. 64 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 3: Perhaps someone can tell us more of this man to 65 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 3: better understand the foe we face. 66 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 1: For iHeartRadio. This is the Legend of sword Quest. I'm 67 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: your host, Jamie Loftus, And this this is episode seven. 68 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: The Swordsmen. 69 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 5: The Faithful Art of eleven has struck and Britain's final 70 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 5: warning to Hitler having been. 71 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 3: Ignored, a state of war once more exists between Great 72 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 3: Britain and Germany. 73 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 1: Having Jack Tremmel was born in Wog, Poland, in nineteen 74 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: twenty eight. By the time he turned ten, he was 75 00:04:24,960 --> 00:04:28,119 Speaker 1: watching from his window as Nazis began marching into town. 76 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: To a kid, it was exciting at first he was 77 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: unable to understand what was really happening, But soon Jack 78 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 1: and his family found themselves living in a single room 79 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: in a Woge ghetto. People he knew there one day 80 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: and gone the next. Jewish members of the community were 81 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,479 Speaker 1: being transported out by the Germans. By the time Jack 82 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: was sixteen in nineteen forty four, it was his turn. 83 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: He and his father were bound for Auschwitz. Jack would 84 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: later recall getting a physical by Joseph Mangela one of 85 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: the most notorious and cruel members of the Nazi Party. 86 00:05:06,960 --> 00:05:09,840 Speaker 1: Mangele dubbed him fit for work, and he and his 87 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: father were sent to labor camps. He had already been 88 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: separated from his mother. With no way of contacting her, 89 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 1: Jack and his dad assumed she was dead. For months, 90 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 1: Jack toiled in the work camp. Liberation was coming, and 91 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: so was the end of the war, but his father 92 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't make it. Typhus was the reported cause, but Jack 93 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: felt differently. His father died, he later said, from having 94 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: gasoline injected into his veins in some deranged experiment. Jack survived. 95 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: After the war, he met and married a woman named Helen, 96 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: herself a Holocaust survivor. And if anything good could come 97 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 1: of any of this, it was that Jack discovered his 98 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:56,479 Speaker 1: mother was still alive. Back in which Jack meanwhile wanted 99 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: to come to the United States. 100 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 5: Journey right, and I went to the council there. I 101 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 5: told him that I would like to go to the States. 102 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 5: I was a person to go to the States, so 103 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 5: I'm looking at we can do that. I am a 104 00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 5: the splice person. 105 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,400 Speaker 1: That's Jack Tremmel. In nineteen ninety he gave an interview 106 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:19,920 Speaker 1: to author William B. Helmreich for a book Against All Odds. 107 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: That audio was later preserved by the United States Holocaust 108 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: Memorial Museum. 109 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 5: He said to me, when would you like to go 110 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 5: as as soon as possible? Next week? 111 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 1: In nineteen forty seven, Jack and Helen received assistance from 112 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: the Hebrew Immigrant Aid Society and took an opportunity to 113 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: board an ocean liner headed to America. Jack arrived first, 114 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: Helen later, but America wasn't the country he imagined. 115 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 5: It was extremely disappointed when I arrived. 116 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 6: But I got off the. 117 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 5: Boat seeing that the smell that they're everything else that 118 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 5: was prepared to wait till the book returns to. 119 00:06:58,920 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 6: Go back to Earth. 120 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: No money in my pocket, I think, you know. 121 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 5: I just went along with the crowd, and I got 122 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 5: hit by a car right. I was crossing when I 123 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 5: got hit by a car, and without opened my eyes 124 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 5: up right, and I've seen all the people sitting around me. 125 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 5: I right away, Yeah, I think I'm going to be 126 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 5: arrested at in the car. 127 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: There was no lasting damage. You couldn't really hurt Jack Tremmel, 128 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 1: not by car, by plane or in war. Jack enlisted 129 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: in the United States Army, where he did two tours. 130 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: He eventually found himself repairing office equipment, like typewriters. After 131 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: the war, he continued preparing them. He opened a repair 132 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: shop in the Bronx. In nineteen fifty five, he moved 133 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 1: to Toronto and soon started a typewriter company. He called 134 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: it Commodore. It felt official, military like. Commodore made typewriters 135 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: and later calculators. He took on a partner, a man 136 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: named Irving Gold, in nineteen sixty six, but Jack remained 137 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: on as the visionary, the leader. Before Apple and IBM, 138 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: Jack's Commodore was offering affordable computing power. He called his 139 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: philosophy hardware for the masses, not the classes. Jack knew 140 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: before a lot of people did, that technology shouldn't be 141 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: relegated to a small number of people. Commodore made computers 142 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: a democracy. But soon a rift developed between Jack, who 143 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: was determined to do things his way, and Irvin Gold, 144 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: who had other plans. In nineteen eighty four, the two 145 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: men had a meeting, things were said, and before long 146 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: Jack decided he no longer had a role in Commodore. 147 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: Most people might be content retiring. Jack was in his fifties, wealthy, 148 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: and though he might not have considered it a pioneer 149 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 1: in computing, but that wasn't Jack's nature. Commodore had in 150 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:57,480 Speaker 1: some way antagonized him. His new mission was to obliterate it. 151 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,320 Speaker 1: In what better way than to take charge of the 152 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: competition Atari, which it made its mark in home computing 153 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: as well as video games. On his first official day 154 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: at Atari, Jack Tremmel allegedly parked his car in a 155 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 1: handicapped spot, stormed in and began a radical reinvention of 156 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 1: the company. Too many rushed games had flooded toy isles, 157 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: costing Warner profits. Executives huddled with Jack, and after one 158 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 1: all night meeting, they agreed to sell him the company. 159 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: Jack's deal to acquire Atari was complex. Warner agreed to 160 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: sell most of it on the basis of debt notes, 161 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: essentially a deferred payment plan. Jack still had to spend 162 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: his own money, by some reports, as much as thirty 163 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: million dollars, but essentially he got a very good deal. 164 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: Jack Tremmel, as hardened a businessman as there had ever been, 165 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: was now in charge of Atari, but his the focus 166 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: was on saving money, not spending it. One of the 167 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: first acts of his new corporate regime was to scrap 168 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 1: sword Quest, a contest that was costing Atari a lot 169 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: of money without getting much in the way of a return. 170 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: Tor and Tara were essentially served their termination notices. Other 171 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 1: employees fit that bill as well. It's not that Jack 172 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: fired them exactly, it's just that he didn't hire them. 173 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: But the personnel departures hundreds and hundreds were so large 174 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: that he earned nicknames Jack the Ripper, Jack the Knife. 175 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 2: As things started to get later on into late eighty 176 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 2: three and starting to move into eighty four, it became 177 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: clear that things were not going as well for Atari. 178 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: That's Howard Scott Warshaw. Again, Howard was among those who 179 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: were still with ATARI when it experienced a dramatic paradigm 180 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 1: shift in nineteen eighty four. When Jack Tremmel stepped in. 181 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 2: It got so bad. He got so dire at Atari 182 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 2: it even started to overcome our denial about things going bad. 183 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 2: That's how bad it was, because our denial was really powerful. 184 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: I never wanted anyone to rain on my parade, because 185 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: this was an amazing parade I got to be in. 186 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:17,880 Speaker 2: But it did, and things were starting to die and 187 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: fall down, and my interview with Jack Tremmel was amazing 188 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 2: because Jack Tremmel himself is a remarkable guy. This is 189 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 2: a guy who survived Auschwitz concentration camp, then left Poland 190 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 2: to come to the United States, opened a typewriter store, 191 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 2: turned it into Commodore Computers, which built up into a 192 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: billion dollar company, which he then left. And now we're 193 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 2: the first acquisition that he makes after Commodore. So he's 194 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: reputed to be an extremely hard nosed businessman. So I'm 195 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 2: kind of interested to talk to this guy. I mean, 196 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 2: this sounds like a very interesting person. So I go 197 00:11:56,840 --> 00:11:59,200 Speaker 2: in and we talk, and we start talking and he's 198 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 2: has he He has nothing to say about the technology 199 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: or what they're going to do. He's just asking me, 200 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: you know what I do, and you know, what do 201 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 2: I like? And you know, am I married? You know, 202 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 2: which is a question I don't usually get in interviews. 203 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 2: And I told him, yeah, in fact, you know, my 204 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: wife works, and he actually says to me, he goes, 205 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: what she works? You got that all wrong. You know, 206 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 2: she should be at home waiting for you with the 207 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: slippers when you get home. So it was a very 208 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 2: interesting interview, and at the end of it, it was 209 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:31,760 Speaker 2: clear that what they were looking for was not really 210 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 2: game programmers. 211 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: For Howard, the new Atari wasn't a better Atari, not 212 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 1: for him anyway. 213 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 2: So basically, after the round of interviews, they offered a 214 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: bunch of layoff packes. People could decide what they wanted 215 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 2: to do, and I opted out. But I did have 216 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 2: the interview with Jack, and I wore my slippers on 217 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 2: the last day. 218 00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: Atari under Jack Tremmel was let's call it unique. His 219 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: whole philosophy probably stemmed from his childhood or a lack 220 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: of a childhood. Jack summed it up this way, business 221 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: is war and Atari was his new battlefield. 222 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,959 Speaker 5: I don't know those days, and I had to approved 223 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 5: it myself, but if I am. 224 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: Equal with other people, but there was one thing that 225 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: would forever alter the course of Atari. At its heart, 226 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 1: it was a gaming company, and Jack Tremmel didn't play games. 227 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 1: Jack recruited his three sons to work for him. There 228 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: was Leonard Trammel, who had a degree in physics and 229 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: was assigned to oversea software, Gary Trimmel, who was responsible 230 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 1: for collecting on outstanding invoices money owed Atari, and Sam Tremail, 231 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: who became Atari's president. When Jack moved up to chairman, 232 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: Atari became a family business, the Tremmel family business. According 233 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: to those who worked for him, Jack could be tyrannical, belligerent, tough, difficult. 234 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 1: Screw up and you'd face a Jack attack, a tirade 235 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: of epic proportions. It was not unheard of for Jack 236 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: to remove his shoe and begin pounding it on the 237 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: table during a meeting. In fact, at Commodore, someone had 238 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: named one of the computer game's Jack attack as an 239 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: inside joke. One Atari employee remembers that one of the 240 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 1: Tremmel's would walk into Atari's offices a stack of pink 241 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: slips stuffed in his pocket. Losing your job was something 242 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,920 Speaker 1: that could happen suddenly. Some gamers have even declared Jack 243 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 1: the man who destroyed a Tari. But that's a pretty 244 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: superficial understanding of Jack. 245 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 6: Aggressive, smart, very cost conscious, tight with his money. A 246 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:00,960 Speaker 6: table pounder likened him to a Who is the Russian 247 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 6: dictator who hit the table with his shoe? Was it 248 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 6: Khrushchev or Gorbachev? He wouldn't take any crap. 249 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 1: That's Michael Katz. Michael came from Mattel and Kaliko. At 250 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: Mattel he had headed up design of their electronic football 251 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: handheld game. That's a very retro reference, but if you're 252 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 1: of a certain age, you'll remember it. Jack wanted Michael 253 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: to come on board the new Atari. His Atari and 254 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: Michael agreed, but under certain conditions. 255 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 6: I told them I would be willing to become head 256 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 6: of marketing for the computer division. I would be happy 257 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 6: to become president of the video game division. I would 258 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 6: do those first two things only if Jack created a 259 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 6: new division and a new position called President of Entertainment Electronics, 260 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 6: which meant toys and games that were electronic being introduced 261 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 6: under the Atari banner. Utari name to compete directly with 262 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 6: Worlds of Wonder. 263 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: Worlds of Wonder was the company that had hit it 264 00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: big thanks to Teddy Ruxpin, a talking teddy bear that 265 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: told bedtime stories. It was sort of like having a 266 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: chuck e Cheese in your living room. Michael wanted Atari 267 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: to become more of an all encompassing entertainment company with 268 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: products outside of gaming and computers. For example, he thought 269 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: Atari might be able to market laser tag, but there 270 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 1: were a couple of problems. One. Jack wanted Atari to 271 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: become the biggest name in home computers. If video games 272 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: could do anything for him at all, it would be 273 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: to subsidize his PC projects. At the time, the market 274 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: was dominated by companies like IBM, COMPAC, Apple, and his 275 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: own former company, Commodore. To Jack, the competition's machines were, 276 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 1: in his words, like cigarettes. They're bad for you, but 277 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:04,120 Speaker 1: an awful lot of people are hooked on using them. Two, 278 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: he didn't want to spend a lot of money. When 279 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 1: Michael brought a laser tag, Jack initially said sure, let's 280 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 1: do that. Then when it was time to close the deal, 281 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: he waffled the laser tag. People were upset it was 282 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 1: too late to pair with anyone else for the holiday season. 283 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,679 Speaker 1: That was Jack not here to make friends. That was 284 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,360 Speaker 1: the reason the sword Quest contest came to an end 285 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six. With tens of thousands left to 286 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: spend in a crashing video game market, it simply made 287 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: no financial sense to allow it to continue. The contest 288 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: started under Warner, it wasn't a part of the new Atari, 289 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: which was really the unfinished business he had left a 290 00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:53,400 Speaker 1: Commodore total domination of the personal computing market. Not only 291 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: did Jack scrap sword Quest, he barely wanted anything to 292 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: do with video games at all. One of the first 293 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 1: things Jack did was try to return six million dollars 294 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: in advertising. Atari, while still owned by Warner, had pre 295 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: purchased for the nineteen eighty four Olympic Games, and Michael 296 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: remembers one of the tremel's denying a request for fifty 297 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 1: four dollars to mail an item overnight fifty four dollars. 298 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: Michael paid it himself, though he did get reimbursed later on. 299 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 6: We cut corners wherever we could, just to be good 300 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 6: business people. Jack had a reputation for being very tough 301 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,400 Speaker 6: at Commodore, very tough at Atari. I respected that in him. 302 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 6: I didn't look down upon it, but it meant that 303 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 6: we had to do a lot of stuff differently from 304 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 6: what the industry was used to. 305 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: At Commodore, Jack had gotten press attention without even trying. 306 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:52,919 Speaker 1: He had a cool product, a novel product, an affordable 307 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: computer that you didn't need to be an MIT graduate 308 00:18:56,119 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: to use. Maybe Jack expected that same kind of attention Atari, 309 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: but this was a time Atari probably should have been 310 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: out courting to press. But pretty soon Atari had another problem, 311 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: and his name was Mario. A Japanese company named Nintendo 312 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: had released the Family Computer or Famicom in Japan in 313 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,919 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, it was leagues beyond any gaming system 314 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 1: of the era Atari included. In nineteen eighty five, Nintendo 315 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,400 Speaker 1: entered the North American market. The Famicom was retooled as 316 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 1: the Nintendo Entertainment System or NYS, and although retailers were 317 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:43,120 Speaker 1: still feeling burned by Atari, they were lured in by 318 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: lots of promises, like the fact Nintendo would accept any 319 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: unsold inventory. Thanks to Super Mario Brothers, The Legend of Zelda, Castlevania, 320 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: and dozens of other titles, Nintendo became the biggest brand 321 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 1: in home gaming, a role that had previously belonged to Atari. 322 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: Atari couldn't compete head to head with Nintendo. What they 323 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: could do was position themselves as an affordable alternative. Families 324 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: who had kids crying for an Nes but were on 325 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: a tight budget could opt for the less expensive ATARI system. 326 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 6: So my mission was to bring back the twenty six 327 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 6: hundred under fifty dollars as a low price spread that 328 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 6: became positioned as the game system for those who couldn't 329 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,600 Speaker 6: afford one hundred and forty nine or one hundred ninety 330 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 6: nine dollars for an Atari or a Mattel. 331 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: While this strategy worked, Atari blew another opportunity when game 332 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: manufacturer Sega approached the company with an offer to distribute 333 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: their new system, the Sega Genesis. 334 00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 6: And I thought that was wonderful that they came to us, 335 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 6: came to me. We met with Jack and Sam and 336 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 6: once again, and Jack seemed to be interested and excited. 337 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 6: Jack said, it sounds great, but when it came to 338 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 6: working out the royalty part of it and advance and 339 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 6: guarantee part of it, Jack walked away because he didn't 340 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 6: want to make a deal and had no interest in 341 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 6: the next great video game system. 342 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: Jack was focused on Atari's home computer projects. There was 343 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: the Atari ST, which was nicknamed the Jack in Toosh, 344 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: and it was Jack's obsession. It sold for around eight 345 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 1: hundred dollars, cheaper than Apple's Macintosh. Some people considered it 346 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 1: one of the best computers ever released, and it became 347 00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: really popular with musicians thanks to Midi ports. For the 348 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,399 Speaker 1: first time, amateurs could arrange and compose music at home 349 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: on a PC without spending a small fortune, and professionals 350 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,919 Speaker 1: used it too. Tangerine Dream made several albums using the 351 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: Atari st pop music, and Jack Tremmel. That's an interesting combination, 352 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,000 Speaker 1: but Jack still had a hard time getting retailers to 353 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: support it. Remember that Atari Games had sat on their 354 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: shelves collecting dust during the video game meltdown of nineteen 355 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: eighty three. That wasn't Jack's doing, but the brand was damaged, 356 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: and the thing Jack did have control over, soothing retailer 357 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: fears wasn't something he really cared to pursue. 358 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:31,760 Speaker 6: On the negative side, he wasn't a schmoozer, he wasn't 359 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 6: a massager. He ignored that ten key retailers controlled retail 360 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 6: distribution in the whole United States and Canada, and he 361 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 6: wasn't willing to pay them the traditional merchandising fees to 362 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 6: support his products at retail. 363 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: Michael eventually left Atari and wound up with Sega. A 364 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 1: short time later, Atari decided to jump back into video games. 365 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: The Atar ryst computer hadn't been the hit they were expecting, 366 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: but Atari still had major name recognition in the gaming market. First, 367 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: they introduced the Atari Links, a color handheld system that 368 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 1: would be compared with the Nintendo Game Boy. It was 369 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: probably a superior system with color graphics, but it was 370 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: twice as much and that color display drained batteries too quickly. 371 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: Then in nineteen ninety three, they introduced the Atari Jaguar, 372 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: a next generation system boasting of advanced sixty four bit graphics. 373 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: It beat systems like the Sony PlayStation to the market. 374 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 7: With its importates three D graphics, real world animation, and 375 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 7: enlightened scy that you can only get with Jaguar. 376 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 6: Repeat the question, Jaguar, Jaguar, Jagar. 377 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: The Jaguar got support from Walmart, who promised to place 378 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: it in over four hundred of their stores, but instead 379 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: of a more conventional marketing pust Atari opted to do 380 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: an infomercial. It didn't resonate with gamers. Infomercials weren't really cool, 381 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: and the games weren't as memorable as your Marios and Sonics. 382 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,359 Speaker 1: Atari had Trevor mcpherr and Dino Dunes. By this point, 383 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: no matter what kind of system you had or what 384 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: it could do, a company needed hundreds of millions in 385 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: advertising to get gamers interested. You needed millions more to 386 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 1: satisfy big retailers who want money for premium product placement 387 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: or mentions in their own advertising. Game systems don't just 388 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,159 Speaker 1: ship to stores and get stocked there's a dance that 389 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: goes on behind the scenes that wasn't something Atari could manage. 390 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:49,680 Speaker 1: Jack didn't dance. The jaguar floundered. Atari had a bunch 391 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,400 Speaker 1: of them returned. Ultimately, they sold one hundred twenty five 392 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: thousand systems but had one hundred thousand in inventory. There 393 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: was more bad news. Sam tra Mmel, who had been 394 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: running Atari as president, suffered a heart attack. That meant Jack, 395 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:10,160 Speaker 1: who had taken a step back, returned to run things. Finally, 396 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety six, Jack decided it was time. He 397 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,760 Speaker 1: worked out a merger between Atari and JTS, a disk 398 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: drive manufacturer, and from what Somax employees say, the company 399 00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,879 Speaker 1: was absorbed without much of an institutional memory. The Atari archives, 400 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,119 Speaker 1: such as they were, were left up to fans. In 401 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,280 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, Hasbro would buy Atari from JTS. Year 402 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: after year, memories of sword Quest would fade in the 403 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: minds of all but a handful of people. One era 404 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: of Atari ended, but the era of Jack Tremmel would continue. 405 00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 1: There would be another gathering of employees, this time not 406 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: in the air but on solid ground. When Jack walked 407 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: away from Atari, he threw a party at his home 408 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,639 Speaker 1: for the amateur detectives who were following the sword Quest saga. 409 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: It would be a party that became the stuff of legend. 410 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: Jack Tremmel is bidding goodbye to a company he's controlled 411 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: for the past twelve years, through good times and bad, 412 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: through market changes, and many many tsunamis in both the 413 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 1: gaming and personal computer worlds. He's always looking toward the future, 414 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: but his past isn't forgotten. He makes a seven figure 415 00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:30,159 Speaker 1: donation to the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. It's around 416 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,240 Speaker 1: this time that Jack invites a number of friends, family, 417 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: and Atari staff to his home in Moreno Valley, California. 418 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: Befitting Jack's stature as a pioneer in home computing, It's 419 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: a lavish estate with the expected trimmings of success, a pool, 420 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: a wine cellar, the square footage of a large retail store. 421 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: He toasts friends and close associates, those he calls the 422 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: inner family, the people he trusts implicitly, at least that's 423 00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: how some people remember it. It's here at this party 424 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: that the Fireplace story begins to take root. The first 425 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: talk of it came in nineteen ninety seven, when an 426 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,440 Speaker 1: Atari fan named Clay Hollowell distributed an online Atari newsletter. 427 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: In between video game reviews and industry news, Clay wrote. 428 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 8: Useless fact of the month. Remember the fifty thousand dollars 429 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 8: grand prize sword for the sword Quest contestatory was running well. 430 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 8: That sword is hanging over the mantle of Jack Tremail's fireplace. 431 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,880 Speaker 1: Then, in nineteen ninety eight, the late Atari archivist Kurt 432 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 1: Vin Dell posted a message to a Usenet group that 433 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: was kind of a Reddit before Reddit. In a discussion 434 00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 1: about the unclaimed sword Quest prizes, Kurt mentioned that a 435 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: friend of his had been told the same thing. Jack 436 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: had possession of the Sword of Ultimate Sorcery. Depending on 437 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,600 Speaker 1: the version told, the sword hung over the fireplace in 438 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: one of the homes many stately rooms, gleaming steel, proving 439 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: irresistible to party goers. Or perhaps it simply hung on 440 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: the wall, an ornamental flourish that didn't resonate with all 441 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: but a few of the Atari faithful, who saw it 442 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:14,159 Speaker 1: for what it was, the lost treasure of sword Quest Tara. 443 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:16,880 Speaker 3: It's what we've been seeking for all this time. 444 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 4: Let's grab it now and flee and strike down anyone 445 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:21,920 Speaker 4: who stands in our way. 446 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 3: No, sister, let us not shed any blood this day. First, 447 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 3: we must be sure this is the treasure we seek. 448 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: A few years later, another former Atari employee created a 449 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: similar post on the Atari age forums. He claimed he 450 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,959 Speaker 1: had been told by four separate people who had been 451 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: to Jack's house for the gathering that they too had 452 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:46,040 Speaker 1: seen the sword above the fireplace. Now, one person mentioning this, 453 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 1: that could be a mistake, maybe an exaggeration, But five 454 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: people claiming to have seen it, that's compelling. So we 455 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: reached out to the employee some twenty years after he 456 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: created that post. Credit to him for remembering. He even 457 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,080 Speaker 1: wrote that he said he had heard the fireplace story 458 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 1: from a few people, and he passed their names on. 459 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: Here's what they told us, And yes these are dramatizations 460 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 1: of their replies. 461 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 8: I didn't see sword quest memorabilia at Jack's house. 462 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: I have been asked about it before and have joked 463 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 1: that I should have looked for it. 464 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,600 Speaker 9: I'd heard from multiple people during my Atari tenure that 465 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,160 Speaker 9: Jack had the mystical sword hung over his fireplace and 466 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 9: his home. I no longer recall who told me that, 467 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 9: and I never witnessed it myself. I never had the 468 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 9: honor to be to any of the Tremmel's homes. 469 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: Three other people alleged to have seen the sword didn't 470 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: reply to a request to comment. Doesn't mean they saw it, 471 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,880 Speaker 1: doesn't mean they didn't. There's something you've probably been muttering 472 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: to yourself this entire time. Just ask the Tremmel's, for 473 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,239 Speaker 1: God's sake. Jack's three sons would certainly know whether their 474 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: father had taken in possession of the sword. They worked 475 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: with him, Presumably they've been to their father's house. First, 476 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 1: we tried Leonard Tremmel. Leonard is fairly open about his 477 00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: family's background in the personal computing world. He's given interviews 478 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: about it. You can find them on YouTube, many of 479 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: them relatively recent. So he's open to talking about this period, 480 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: but he's not open to being asked about sword Quest 481 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: or the prizes. We asked Leonard if you'd like to talk, 482 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: but got no response. Then we heard from Howard Scott 483 00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: Warshaw that Leonard didn't want to be contacted for this project. 484 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: Leonard's brothers, Sam and Gary haven't really given many, if 485 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 1: any interviews following their family's exit from Atari in nineteen 486 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: ninety six, whether it was about sword Quest or just 487 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: Atari in general, and we didn't get a response from 488 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 1: them either. Among the three Trimmel siblings, there seems to 489 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: be a kind of omerita about sword quest of vow 490 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 1: of silence, or maybe we're just imagining it. Maybe the 491 00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: mythology surrounding the prizes and the legend that Jack commandeered 492 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: the sword is patently uninteresting to them, to the point 493 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: they don't even want to bother to comment. That's possible. 494 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: Here's another possibility. If the rumor were true, if Jack 495 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: had taken the sword and other prizes, would the Tremmels 496 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 1: want to confirm it. If the family admit it to 497 00:31:26,320 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 1: having the prizes, they'd have to feel an entirely new 498 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: line of questioning from curious gaming historians, or even animosity. 499 00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: There might be some disgruntlement among gamers. Canceling a contest 500 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: and then keeping the prizes is what some might call 501 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:49,120 Speaker 1: bad optics. Less Georges Patten and more Ebonezer Scrooge. There 502 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 1: is one possible explanation for the fireplace story, one that 503 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: bridges the gap between the legend and fact. It's a 504 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,600 Speaker 1: conclusion summatary historians have settled on. There's one of them, 505 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: Ken van Merzbergen. 506 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 7: There is a sword that hangs there, but it is 507 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 7: not the sword quest sort. It's another sword entirely. They 508 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 7: saw a sword, but we talked to the Trammels, Leonard Sam, 509 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 7: and even Jack himself. It was not the sword Quest 510 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 7: sword sortquest. The prizes were not there when they took over, 511 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 7: but they did have to close out the contest because 512 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 7: that was. 513 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 5: On their books. 514 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,880 Speaker 1: Wait, what did Ken say? 515 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 7: We talked to the Trammels, Leonard Sam, and even Jack himself. 516 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: By we Ken means he and fellow historian Kurt Vendell. 517 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: And that's interesting since there's never been an on the 518 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: record comment about the prizes from Jack himself, who passed 519 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: away in twenty twelve. But there's one hang up. Kurt 520 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 1: Vendell may have spoken to the Tremmels, but Ken didn't, 521 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:51,880 Speaker 1: and Kurt passed back in twenty twenty. Here's Ken again. 522 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 7: I talked to Leonard Tremmell about other things, but I 523 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 7: don't think I didn't talk sword quest with him about it. 524 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: Another sword, some kind of deck sword. It's hard to imagine, 525 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 1: but maybe Jack Tremmeel had some other sharp object in 526 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: a place of prominence in his home and Atari employees 527 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: familiar with the legend of sword Quest simply inferred the 528 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: sword was the sword. Remember that the first known photo 529 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,960 Speaker 1: of the sword wasn't discovered until a few years later 530 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:23,479 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety nine. In all likelihood, no one who 531 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: thought they saw the sword would know the sword Quest 532 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: sword from any of the thousands of other sword designs, 533 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: from antiquities to replicas, and from what we know of 534 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 1: the prizes, none are emblazoned with the telltale sign an 535 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: Atari logo. It would be hard, if not impossible, for 536 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: them to make a positive identification unless they had seen 537 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,440 Speaker 1: it when the contest was still active, or unless Jack 538 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: told them what it was. And why would he do that? 539 00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: Say it was the sword of ultimate sorcery? Why would 540 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,960 Speaker 1: Jack Tremmel, who had virtually no interest in video games, 541 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 1: possess a symbol of video game supremacy. 542 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 3: It's not the sword we seek after all, Tara, It's 543 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,360 Speaker 3: merely ornamental. It possesses no power. 544 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 4: We've gone down the wrong path, brother, This testimony cannot 545 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 4: be confirmed, Tara. 546 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 3: I can't wait there, do you see it? Why the 547 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 3: gods our quest has brought us here to the one 548 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 3: place that might finally provide an answer. 549 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: It's cold, so cold. 550 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 3: Yes, but we must forge ahead. We must headed to 551 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 3: the frozen tundra known as Canada. 552 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 5: Where done. 553 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: Sorry, Canada, It's game over next time on sword Quest. 554 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 9: The Legend of sword Quest is a production of iHeart 555 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 9: Podcasts and School of Humans. 556 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 8: This episode was written by Jake Rosson and hosted by 557 00:34:55,840 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 8: Jamie Loftus producers are Miranda Hawkins and Josh Fisher. Executive 558 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 8: producers are Virginia Prescott, L. C. Crowley, Brandon Barr, and 559 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:05,560 Speaker 8: Jason English. 560 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 9: Our show editor is Mary Doo. 561 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 8: Audio engineering by Graham Gibson, Research and fact checking by 562 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 8: Austin Thompson and Jake Rosson. 563 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 9: Original score by Jesse Niswanger. 564 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,520 Speaker 8: This episode was sound designed by Josh Fisher, mixing and 565 00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:26,000 Speaker 8: mastering by Miranda Hawkins. Show logo by Lucy Quintonia. Voices 566 00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 8: in this episode are provided by Haley Ellman and Graham Parker.