Speaker 1: Hi Catherine.
Speaker 2: Oh hi Chelsea.
Speaker 1: Hi, you're talking to a forty nine year old woman.
Speaker 1: I mean, birthday, What a birthday? I had? Oh so
Speaker 1: much love. You should see my house just covered in
Speaker 1: flowers and champagne and drugs and cheese. It's just a fantasy.
Speaker 1: I'm living out my fantasy.
Speaker 3: That's great.
Speaker 1: What did you do on the day, Well, I have
Speaker 1: some guests. I have about four friends at my house.
Speaker 1: They came in. So we had a big party Saturday
Speaker 1: night for my friend Kelly and I. We had a
Speaker 1: joint birthday party, which was really fun. Yeah, everybody got
Speaker 1: real fun and we did dance. We did dance it,
Speaker 1: we did dancing. My friend's like, are you Mollie because
Speaker 1: you only dance when you're on Mollie. I'm like, then
Speaker 1: I must be on Mollie anyway, you know how much
Speaker 1: I love drugs. So we had a big party. Then
Speaker 1: we got up the next day yesterday for my birthday,
Speaker 1: and it was a blizzard, like blustery, crazy winds. That's
Speaker 1: a good thing, right, I mean it was pretty gnarly conditions.
Speaker 1: But for me, you know, it's fine. I love it.
Speaker 3: I love the cold, and I love that.
Speaker 1: And I mean I at one point it was skiing
Speaker 1: down the mountain and the wind was so strong it
Speaker 1: stopped me, like I'm going downhill and I just stopped.
Speaker 1: But I had a great time. I had a great
Speaker 1: dinner at my favorite restaurant last night with a bunch
Speaker 1: of my friends, and it was just one of those days,
Speaker 1: like lots of lots of laughter, lots of surprises. My
Speaker 1: friends always kind of set me up, set up a
Speaker 1: little surprise area, you know, on the on the mountain somewhere,
Speaker 1: and they put up a little happy birthday banner and
Speaker 1: they were playing Bruce Springsteen for me, and they had
Speaker 1: drinks and food and it was just really fun.
Speaker 2: You sound very loved up by all your phone.
Speaker 1: I do feel loved. I feel very loved and I
Speaker 1: love everyone. And I also lost my phone, so I
Speaker 1: can't even check all my messages.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's great for your mental health, just like
Speaker 2: no social media, no no.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 1: And plus I put oh yeah, I put I put
Speaker 1: out my birthday video, so I have to see how
Speaker 1: that performed. I want to see what my reactions are.
Speaker 1: But my friend just DM me saying your birthday videos
Speaker 1: on the Today Show, so I guess it was a
Speaker 1: big hit, fantastic. I added a second show in Vancouver.
Speaker 1: I added a second show in Didney, Australia. I added
Speaker 1: the Santa Barbara Bull in August. Yay, you leave it there,
Speaker 1: huge and so yeah that was I performed there my
Speaker 1: last tour and I was like, I need to come
Speaker 1: here every time I perform. So that's exciting. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I have added a bunch of new tour dates. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be touring through all of twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: I had such fun shows last weekend. We went to
Speaker 1: Edmonton and Calgary. I brought one of my daughters. Well
Speaker 1: she's my son. We call her my son, but everyone's
Speaker 1: the opposite sex in our family, and everyone knows who's what.
Speaker 2: It doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1: They called me dad, so I have to call them
Speaker 1: a son. And we went to Edmonton and Calgary, which
Speaker 1: were awesome shows.
Speaker 3: Again.
Speaker 1: So yeah, anyway, I have Canadian dates left, but there's
Speaker 1: only tickets left for the Vancouver show. Second show March thirtieth,
Speaker 1: so awesome. Yeah, Okay, that's the story.
Speaker 3: Morning glory good.
Speaker 2: Are you watching anything good anything on TV? Or watching
Speaker 2: or movies you've seen?
Speaker 1: No, I've been reading and writing mostly when I in
Speaker 1: my spare time. I haven't watched anything in a few days.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just went and saw. It's like barely on
Speaker 2: in the theaters anymore, but I've just went and saw
Speaker 2: the Zone of Interest. Did you see it?
Speaker 1: No? No? No, what's up?
Speaker 2: It is about Auschwitz and it's about a family that
Speaker 2: lives right outside of Auschwitz and someone who works at
Speaker 2: the camp, and it is I guess they actually screened
Speaker 2: it at Auschwitz as well for people to come see it,
Speaker 2: because it's such like an important film.
Speaker 1: How lovely. I didn't know Aschwitz had a screening room.
Speaker 1: I did neither, but you know that place has really
Speaker 1: turned around.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it almost feels like a horror movie. It's very unnerving.
Speaker 1: It's called Zone of Interest, the.
Speaker 2: Zone of Interest, and it's up for an oscar or
Speaker 2: two as well. It's haunting in a way that you
Speaker 2: don't expect. And I've never seen anything like this. Oh
Speaker 2: with that topic, so I great. Yeah, I would recommend.
Speaker 2: I do have a follow up from one of our
Speaker 2: callers from a recent episodisode, Akroneffa, who called in on
Speaker 2: the Nicolevant episode. She wrote in to thank us for
Speaker 2: chatting with her, and she says, I'm doing very well. Honestly,
Speaker 2: since having the opportunity to speak with Chelsea and Nicole,
Speaker 2: my perspective on losing my mom has changed. It was
Speaker 2: their insistence that our mothers are always with us something
Speaker 2: clicked in me, and I told myself that that's something
Speaker 2: I will never question again. It almost felt sacrilegious to
Speaker 2: my own intuition and inner knowing to constantly question if
Speaker 2: my mom and ancestors are with me. So after that day,
Speaker 2: I made a decision to no longer question it, and
Speaker 2: it's stuck. I also forgot to mention this during the podcast,
Speaker 2: but Chelsea was part of my decision to do ayahuasca
Speaker 2: last year in Peru, and I got confirmation then too
Speaker 2: that my ancestors are all around me. I'm grateful to
Speaker 2: have had this fact confirmed again by Chelsea and Nicole. Sincerely, Akernaffa,
Speaker 2: I know, just a total sweetheart.
Speaker 1: Okay, our guest today is a two time Olympic gold
Speaker 1: medalist and author of the number one New York Times
Speaker 1: bestseller wolf Pack. Together with her wife Glennon Doyle, she
Speaker 1: co hosts the award winning, critically acclaimed We Can Do
Speaker 1: Hard Things to podcasts. So please welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: Abby womback.
Speaker 3: Are you in Whistler?
Speaker 1: I am, Yes, I am. Where are you, sister?
Speaker 3: It's in La at home.
Speaker 1: Are you guys at the beach?
Speaker 3: We rented a place a block from our house that's
Speaker 3: actually like right on the beach, so she can go
Speaker 3: and write and paint there and that's really fun. So
Speaker 3: we have like direct views.
Speaker 1: That's cute. When she's not painting and writing there, What
Speaker 1: are you using the house.
Speaker 3: For hanging out? Yeah, we do our work, most of
Speaker 3: our real work in our real house, so we just
Speaker 3: go over there for fun watching the sunset.
Speaker 1: That's cute. That's very cute. I haven't seen you since
Speaker 1: the Angel City game, that's right. Congrats on Angel City
Speaker 1: by the way. What an incredible organization to be a
Speaker 1: part of.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so cool. We're so proud of it. And
Speaker 3: you know, it's just kind of like the beginning. I mean,
Speaker 3: just in terms of the business itself, in the business
Speaker 3: of women's sports and the business of women's soccer, things
Speaker 3: are really looking up. There's huge potential for growth and
Speaker 3: literally to be sitting in the stands every single game,
Speaker 3: every single home game for Angel City. It feels actually
Speaker 3: like a dream because I was there twenty years ago
Speaker 3: when there was like forty to fifty people in the
Speaker 3: stands and I was like still playing as hard as
Speaker 3: I could, and so the experience for not just the
Speaker 3: players is just drastically different. But to just go into
Speaker 3: being into that environment, it's just it's really special. It's
Speaker 3: really really special.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm curious to hear about how it
Speaker 1: feels as a retired athlete to be a part of that,
Speaker 1: because it must be bittersweet.
Speaker 3: Yes, very much jealous. There's a huge jealousy component. And
Speaker 3: also this is kind of what I did all of
Speaker 3: that work for. Early on in my career, one of
Speaker 3: my coaches said to me, is like the first year
Speaker 3: of my professional career. He said, well, everything that you've build,
Speaker 3: it's going to be ten x one hundred x bigger
Speaker 3: ten years after you retire. And I was just like
Speaker 3: like fuck you, Like no way, Like it's gonna be
Speaker 3: big while I'm here, you know, like I'm going to
Speaker 3: reap the rewards for this, and he's like, no, you won't,
Speaker 3: and he was right. Sadly, Yeah, I made money, but
Speaker 3: I didn't make nearly as much money as they're making now,
Speaker 3: which is really great. You know, the World Cup, the
Speaker 3: Women's World Cup is like one of the top four
Speaker 3: or five viewed sporting events on television in the world
Speaker 3: of all sports. That's above the Super Bowl, that's above
Speaker 3: the NBA playoffs, like the number four out of ten.
Speaker 3: So we've come a long way. And yeah, I wish
Speaker 3: I was out there playing, capable of still playing on
Speaker 3: some level. But also I'm so tired, Like my body's old,
Speaker 3: and it's fine, and it's totally both things can be true.
Speaker 3: I can have a little bit of fomo and also
Speaker 3: just be sitting in the in the stands, you know,
Speaker 3: reveling at the women on the field.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you're part of it. You know, even though
Speaker 1: you're not on the field, you definitely have a big
Speaker 1: part in it. And so that must be fulfilling. It's
Speaker 1: fulfilling to watch female succeed from my vantage point when
Speaker 1: I don't really have. I mean, I've invested in a
Speaker 1: lot of female sports because of obviously the uptick and
Speaker 1: the you know, it's like women have been underserved for
Speaker 1: so long. We serve it up and look how we
Speaker 1: show up for each other. It's obvious and ridiculous where
Speaker 1: we drive the entire economy. So that's really nice to see.
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't have to be in sports to
Speaker 1: appreciate that women are getting the you know, attention that
Speaker 1: they deserve and the respect that they deserve. And we
Speaker 1: have a long way to go still, but it's nice
Speaker 1: to see it happening in strides. I would say, Okay,
Speaker 1: so listen, I know you started therapy recently.
Speaker 3: Yes, I have been in and out of therapy since
Speaker 3: I guess college. My college coach forced me into therapy.
Speaker 3: It was not a willing participant. Let's just say that
Speaker 3: I was not doing well in school. I was really
Speaker 3: probably partying too much. And back then, this is in
Speaker 3: the late nineties, gayness wasn't cool or hip. It was
Speaker 3: like frowned upon. And she thankfully had a gay brother
Speaker 3: and noticed that I was kind of having some of
Speaker 3: these tendencies and wanted me to have somebody professional to
Speaker 3: talk to. So I got into therapy then, and I
Speaker 3: just recently started about six months ago, now, I guess.
Speaker 3: And it all started because I did an Enneagram test
Speaker 3: and we had an aneagram expert on. Her name is
Speaker 3: Suzanne Stabil. She's incredible and She basically kind of said, look,
Speaker 3: you're an enthusiast. You need to work on your shadow side.
Speaker 3: And when she said it, like it was like this
Speaker 3: full body like Okay, finally you're right. I know it.
Speaker 3: I've always known it. Avoided the sadness, I've avoided the
Speaker 3: pain of my life. I've avoided and I you know,
Speaker 3: for a lot of years I used I used drugs
Speaker 3: and alcohol to numb the moments of those pains and
Speaker 3: sadnesses and grief and heartbreak. And so I decided to
Speaker 3: be kind of proactive about it, and I've been doing
Speaker 3: quite a bit of work and it's been really fucking fascinating. Chelsea.
Speaker 3: I have to tell you, and I didn't know this
Speaker 3: at the time, but you know, my brother passed away
Speaker 3: a couple months ago. So the world and the universe
Speaker 3: kind of works in interesting ways to help, you know,
Speaker 3: these little whispers help you prepare for what's ahead, and
Speaker 3: so that's been really helpful through the grieving process of
Speaker 3: losing my brother.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry about your brother.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so sad, and it's so it was such
Speaker 3: a tragic you know, he's fifty one, and I'm so
Speaker 3: glad that I started this work six months ago. I'm
Speaker 3: so glad that I started to like create a relationship
Speaker 3: with the sadder parts of myself and that has been
Speaker 3: kind of a revolution for me. And PS like still
Speaker 3: in the middle of this grief shit, like, wow, it's intense,
Speaker 3: it's really something. But I have like the professionals in
Speaker 3: my life to help steer and guide me. And you know,
Speaker 3: Glennon's obviously very enlightened in the world of feeling things.
Speaker 3: And so just weird because Glennon is working on we're
Speaker 3: kind of like we've switched positions. She's working on different
Speaker 3: stuff and I'm working on this sadness piece and the
Speaker 3: sorrow and this grief piece right now. And I just
Speaker 3: think that therapy has been And every time I go
Speaker 3: I'm about to go into a therapy session, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I should probably just cancel.
Speaker 1: I don't really need it totally. That's exactly what happens
Speaker 1: when you need it the most, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't really need this. And then after the
Speaker 3: therapy session, I'm like, Okay, that was smart. I'm glad
Speaker 3: that I did not cancel.
Speaker 1: Yes, Well, do you think there's a relationship between having
Speaker 1: a relationship with the sad parts of yourself and your
Speaker 1: shadow in your relationship with your shadow self, because I
Speaker 1: think let's talk about the shadow self. For those of
Speaker 1: us who are listening who aren't really familiar with that term,
Speaker 1: what does that mean to you?
Speaker 3: Abby, I would say, I would say sadness is a
Speaker 3: component of my shadow side. So as like a Gemini,
Speaker 3: I'm I'm born June second, so my sign is Gemini.
Speaker 3: I have like two parts to myself. I have always
Speaker 3: identified more with the happy, joy, enthusiastic, light parts of myself,
Speaker 3: and I have pretty much ignored all of the sad, depressing, grieving, sorrow,
Speaker 3: heartbreak shadow sides. It's easier to kind of think about
Speaker 3: as in like light and dark. However, the more work
Speaker 3: I'm doing, the more I'm understanding that those are just
Speaker 3: binaries that help our brains understand what feelings are. And
Speaker 3: recently I feel like words are so incomplete when it
Speaker 3: comes to this deep, hard work that I'm trying to do.
Speaker 3: So the way that I would think about the shadow
Speaker 3: side are the parts of myself because Glenna and I
Speaker 3: we do ifs, which is internal family systems, were versed
Speaker 3: in it, and that's kind of the way in which
Speaker 3: we are entering into the therapy space. We all have
Speaker 3: parts of ourselves. And if you can imagine sitting at
Speaker 3: like a table, and you have like a capital S
Speaker 3: part which is like the wise, the smart, the one
Speaker 3: that knows all the other parts, the one that accepts
Speaker 3: and loves all the other parts of yourself. The shadow
Speaker 3: side is like the fear and the terror, and the
Speaker 3: anger and the trauma and the judging, like all of
Speaker 3: these parts that are part of who we are, part
Speaker 3: of why we are the way we are for certain reasons,
Speaker 3: based on our experiences, based on our families, based on
Speaker 3: our past, and those parts of myself. I've never really
Speaker 3: given a voice at the table. I've never given a
Speaker 3: chance to speak up. I'm like, nope, putting you away,
Speaker 3: locking you in the room, don't like you, you know.
Speaker 3: And I've gotten heartbroken before, and so I then utilized
Speaker 3: all these other modalities to avoid numb, to not deal with.
Speaker 3: So the irony of this grief now that I'm going
Speaker 3: through is that because I have so many other unresolved
Speaker 3: heartbreaks or grief that I've gone through, I'm also dealing
Speaker 3: with them. It's like fucking whack themle I'm like Jesus Christ. Okay, okay,
Speaker 3: we're going to go to nineteen ninety six here. Oh okay, great,
Speaker 3: let's go. So that's kind of how I would talk
Speaker 3: about the shadow side of myself at least. And it's complicated.
Speaker 3: It's not like one size fits all. It's not black
Speaker 3: or white, it's not good or bad. It's just like
Speaker 3: the human experience that I'm trying to have. I'm trying
Speaker 3: to experience it more fully. And the more I do
Speaker 3: this work, the more I realize the shadow side is
Speaker 3: not dark. It's just a part of the spectrum of
Speaker 3: my humanity. And it's something that I've kind of always
Speaker 3: been a little afraid of, meaning like afraid of death,
Speaker 3: you know, all of the Catholic things that I was
Speaker 3: indoctrinated into believing. I'm trying to unwind and un unbelieve
Speaker 3: because I don't think that it's it's light and dark
Speaker 3: or good or bad. It's just people, complicated people having
Speaker 3: gone through complicated circumstances that create parts of ourselves that
Speaker 3: we either want to face or we don't. And I'm
Speaker 3: finally just wanting to face myself. Now.
Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, I think a lot of us can relate
Speaker 1: to you learn so much about yourself through therapy that
Speaker 1: you have to start to unlearn so many things. The
Speaker 1: more you learn, the more you need to unlearn. And
Speaker 1: so it's like this toggle back and forth. And I
Speaker 1: know from personally when I didn't understand that what shadow
Speaker 1: self meant for a long time, and when I was
Speaker 1: in therapy it was revealed to me. But I assumed
Speaker 1: all those negative thoughts or wanting bad things to happen
Speaker 1: to bad people, or people to get their karma that
Speaker 1: they deserved, or to be invidious of another, those were
Speaker 1: all qualities that made me a bad person. When those
Speaker 1: are just thoughts that are happening, you don't have to
Speaker 1: subscribe to them or participate even in them. It's a
Speaker 1: totally normal and human nature to have negative thoughts about situations,
Speaker 1: about yourself, about others about, to have lustfulness, to have jealousy,
Speaker 1: to have any of the things that are thought to
Speaker 1: be negative. And the actual healthiest way to deal with
Speaker 1: all of that is by acknowledging that they exist and
Speaker 1: not letting them overpower you. And by that acknowledgment that
Speaker 1: all of these thoughts exist in all each of us,
Speaker 1: you aren't letting them overpower you. It's when you are
Speaker 1: denying those thoughts and trying to put them away where
Speaker 1: they do take over.
Speaker 3: It's good, that's exactly right. It's really good.
Speaker 1: And I think also what's interesting about what you're saying
Speaker 1: is one of the things that people who refused to
Speaker 1: go to therapy, people who refuse to seek help, they
Speaker 1: think they can get away with that and that it
Speaker 1: won't knock on their door, and your grief and your
Speaker 1: trauma don't go anywhere. They only get bigger inside of you.
Speaker 1: They get bigger and bigger and bigger until there is
Speaker 1: a break. And then sometimes that break is disastrous to
Speaker 1: your well being, and sometimes it's easily recoverable. You can
Speaker 1: go to therapy, you can like you know, seek out answers,
Speaker 1: and it can be trying, but like, there is no
Speaker 1: shortcut around it. So by evading all of these issues.
Speaker 1: And there are people in my life who do this,
Speaker 1: who are like, I don't have anything to I have
Speaker 1: nothing to learn, like I want to do that, I
Speaker 1: don't want to go there, And it's like, okay, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Your life doesn't have to be this way.
Speaker 1: There is unadulterated joy and bliss waiting on the other side.
Speaker 1: For you, if you just have the bravery and guts
Speaker 1: to go through this little tricky path that you're going
Speaker 1: to have to go through.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's scary. It's it's scary, it's expensive, Like it
Speaker 3: feels like therapists are impossible to get booked right now,
Speaker 3: and and so I do want to just say, like
Speaker 3: it is a privileged position. I do feel privileged to
Speaker 3: be able to provide and create an environment to be
Speaker 3: in a therapy space. But I come from a family
Speaker 3: who doesn't really subscribe to it. I mean, I have
Speaker 3: a couple of brothers and sisters who are in therapy,
Speaker 3: but for the most part, my family's like therapy, what
Speaker 3: are you gonna you know, what is that going to
Speaker 3: teach me? And I don't think that we get away
Speaker 3: with much as human beings. I think that some things
Speaker 3: haunt us, you know, like we have like a deeper knowing.
Speaker 3: Like I mean, it's like when Suzan said, I think
Speaker 3: that you're going to have to spend some time working
Speaker 3: on your shadow side. It was like the secret I
Speaker 3: have been keeping to myself from myself that she exposed
Speaker 3: out loud, and it was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: that's the thing I've been avoiding my whole life. That's
Speaker 3: the work I need to do. And I'm finally, you know,
Speaker 3: in a space that I've been sober for you know,
Speaker 3: seven eight years now, and I'm solid in my marriage
Speaker 3: with Glennon, and we're finally like in a place where
Speaker 3: we're both doing like extremely personal work on our own selves.
Speaker 3: And I think that we both needed to find each
Speaker 3: other to be able to do this work. And so
Speaker 3: I do feel lucky to be able to do it,
Speaker 3: but I also know that they're I don't I don't
Speaker 3: know if we get away with much. I think that
Speaker 3: I think that even in our last breath, it's something
Speaker 3: that will. I just want to make my transition into
Speaker 3: the next phase of whatever existence is after life. I
Speaker 3: want to make that as peaceful as possible. And so
Speaker 3: I want to do the work so that I feel
Speaker 3: like all of it has been all of the stones
Speaker 3: have been unturned as much as I possibly can.
Speaker 1: And also so you don't have to repeat performance, right like, yes,
Speaker 1: God forbid, we are being reincarnated and come back. I
Speaker 1: don't want to come back. I want this to be
Speaker 1: the last rodeo, like let me. I just want to
Speaker 1: nail everything. I'm supposed to now give me a challenge.
Speaker 1: I'm fucking on it, you know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: don't want any hoops to jump through after this. I
Speaker 1: want to go to sleep. Okay, so we're gonna take
Speaker 1: some callers. Abby, thank you for your openness. I think
Speaker 1: it's always fascinating to hear about, you know, people's lives changing.
Speaker 1: I mean, people's lives are always changing, and being open
Speaker 1: to it is such a beautiful, bountiful thing to do. Like,
Speaker 1: to be open to change in your life and to
Speaker 1: not have this narrow minded view of things is just
Speaker 1: like it's the key to freedom and happiness. Okay, we're
Speaker 1: gonna take a break and we'll be right bay and
Speaker 1: we're back with aviy wand back Olympic gold medalist and
Speaker 1: author also. Okay, so we have some questions, Catherine, like,
Speaker 1: we have some callers. Let's get going. Let's see what
Speaker 1: we've got on the deck for today.
Speaker 2: This next question I think fits in exactly what we
Speaker 2: were just talking about. But Allison says, Dear Chelsea, I've
Speaker 2: gone through some changes in the last six months and
Speaker 2: have become very introspective and reflective. I've started working on
Speaker 2: myself in order to be more confident and happy in
Speaker 2: my life. And one thing I'm looking for help with
Speaker 2: is forgiving myself of awful things that I've said to
Speaker 2: people in the past when it was insecure and hurting. Obviously,
Speaker 2: I would never say these things now that I've grown
Speaker 2: as a person, but sometimes when I'm meditating or just
Speaker 2: thinking to myself, a memory reminds me of a time
Speaker 2: when I was a manager in retail and snapped at
Speaker 2: a subordinate or didn't take someone's mental health issues seriously.
Speaker 2: I've also said mean things when my temper flares up.
Speaker 2: I won't remember saying it, but my sister said that
Speaker 2: I really hit below the belt sometimes when I'm mad,
Speaker 2: As I've learned to calm down and not lose control.
Speaker 2: Thanks Chelsea, I hardly get mad anymore and have learned
Speaker 2: to take a beat before responding. I know I need
Speaker 2: to stop beating myself up about it, but is it
Speaker 2: really worth apologizing to these people for things I said
Speaker 2: years ago. I know we give ourselves closure, but I'm
Speaker 2: wondering if others need that too. Thanks so much for
Speaker 2: all your help. This podcast has been a real part
Speaker 2: of my progression and self awareness. Sincerely, Allison and I
Speaker 2: should say her subject line was therapized and ready to apologize,
Speaker 2: So therapy has been a big part of this transition,
Speaker 2: I think for her.
Speaker 1: I mean that's a very interesting question because it's like
Speaker 1: how big was the infraction and how offensive were you
Speaker 1: and is there a need to apologize so many years
Speaker 1: later If it was, like, you know, you snapping at
Speaker 1: an employee, I mean, if you really feel the need
Speaker 1: to go and do that, then yes, go, but also
Speaker 1: it should be measured, like don't bring up something that
Speaker 1: someone is probably not going to even remember. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a nice it's a nice idea, but it's more
Speaker 1: kind of selfish than anything else in terms of if
Speaker 1: it wasn't a big deal and you're just like, you know,
Speaker 1: trying to make yourself feel better. I mean, you obviously
Speaker 1: know if there are people in your life that you
Speaker 1: really hurt, and that starts with your family and your
Speaker 1: closest friends. When you're talking about employees, and if there's
Speaker 1: like I would say, there's a statute of limitations with
Speaker 1: regards to employees, Like if it was five years ago
Speaker 1: and you snapped at someone, I don't know that you
Speaker 1: need to send that person a letter. You can but
Speaker 1: that's up to you. I just don't think that's a requirement.
Speaker 1: If your sister has called you out on it repeatedly,
Speaker 1: then that's the person you need to apologize too, and
Speaker 1: any other people that have called you out on it
Speaker 1: and said that their feelings have been hurt. And I
Speaker 1: personally subscribe to this theory of you always get a
Speaker 1: chance to make a new impression. And while this isn't
Speaker 1: true for everyone in your life, you usually circle around
Speaker 1: the people that you've hurt as an opportunity to resurface
Speaker 1: in a way where they can see that you've changed
Speaker 1: and they can see your growth, and you can act
Speaker 1: in kindness and you can kind of make a new
Speaker 1: impression to replace the last impression. I believe that to
Speaker 1: be true. That has been true in my life, and
Speaker 1: when I have that opportunity, I take it. So it's
Speaker 1: more of like the opportunity presenting itself and me taking
Speaker 1: it and leveling up to that moment, not seeking out
Speaker 1: the moments. But that's just me. So it's whatever is
Speaker 1: going to be best for your development and your peace
Speaker 1: of mind. But also just think about when you're dealing
Speaker 1: with these instances, who has really been heard and who
Speaker 1: was just like, okay, whatever, that's just you know, a
Speaker 1: moment in a day that they're nobody's going to remember totally.
Speaker 3: I also, I just want to add it sounds to
Speaker 3: me a little bit like you have a little bit
Speaker 3: more work to do in the self forgiveness department, because
Speaker 3: once you can access and create a relationship with yourself
Speaker 3: around that kind of forgiveness of maybe what headspace you
Speaker 3: were in, or what protective parts were rising up in
Speaker 3: you to say these you mean things, or whatever it
Speaker 3: might be, if you do actually truly understand those elements,
Speaker 3: then self forgiveness can come because you can understand that
Speaker 3: you were just trying to protect yourself for whatever reason.
Speaker 3: We all were born and raised in different families, in
Speaker 3: different houses, with different belief systems. You have different traumas,
Speaker 3: you have different backgrounds, you have different experiences than all
Speaker 3: of the people that you meet in your life that
Speaker 3: give evidence as to why we respond in certain circumstances
Speaker 3: rather than others. And I think that if you can
Speaker 3: do a little bit more digging as to the why
Speaker 3: of where you were at the time, what made you
Speaker 3: respond or interact with people in certain ways that now
Speaker 3: make you feel bad there was. I mean, this is
Speaker 3: the work for me that I've done in my sobriety,
Speaker 3: because you know, the shame is what just took me
Speaker 3: down for so many years and kept me in the fight,
Speaker 3: kept me in the grips of addiction for so long.
Speaker 3: And until I figured out that addiction was serving a
Speaker 3: part of me, that it was protecting me, that it
Speaker 3: was protecting me in some ways, I was then and
Speaker 3: only then able to forgive myself for the self harm
Speaker 3: that I was inflicting upon myself. And that is when
Speaker 3: I realized, oh, okay, then the amends come out because
Speaker 3: you don't have shame around the action. So then you
Speaker 3: can go and say all of your apologies, whether they
Speaker 3: land or not is not your business, right. You only
Speaker 3: can clean up your side of the streets. So that's
Speaker 3: all I'll say.
Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, I think that's very true because yeah,
Speaker 1: we can also labor like our bad behavior, and it's
Speaker 1: like that's not an act of kindness or forgiveness to
Speaker 1: anyone either sitting there and ruminating over what you did
Speaker 1: what you did. It's like you should also be able
Speaker 1: to recale great your focus on the future and changing
Speaker 1: that behavior and not repeating past mistakes right, and that
Speaker 1: also gives you a sense of, oh, okay, some of
Speaker 1: those apologies may not be necessary because you've actually learned
Speaker 1: that you can do better when you know better.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think you know, if you do decide
Speaker 2: to like DM an old coworker or you know, discuss
Speaker 2: it with your sister. I think Chelsea's point of not
Speaker 2: making it about yourself is really important. So like, rather
Speaker 2: than saying I've changed, I've changed, just like focus on
Speaker 2: like here is my apology for how I was before and.
Speaker 1: Making it light like, you know, I've been doing some
Speaker 1: work on myself and I felt like this might have
Speaker 1: been a pretty crappy thing to say to you at
Speaker 1: this time. Just want to let you know I apologize,
Speaker 1: you know, and then that's actually takes it all off
Speaker 1: of your plate and you don't have to even look
Speaker 1: for a response, and if you get one, great, And
Speaker 1: that's a generous, gracious person.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Where our next question comes from Aarin. She was
Speaker 2: a graphic designer. Aaron says, Dear Chelsea, on your episode
Speaker 2: with ze Way, you talked about aging and how there's
Speaker 2: a double standard for women. I've been thinking more about
Speaker 2: that and wanted your advice. I've always looked quote young
Speaker 2: for my age. Recently, several people have told me how
Speaker 2: young I look. These were isolated events and by themselves
Speaker 2: didn't bother me, but the collection of experiences have me
Speaker 2: feeling self conscious. On one hand, I'm youthful and society
Speaker 2: tells me that's a good thing, and I'm so lucky.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, as I advance in my career,
Speaker 2: I wonder if my appearance is holding me back. I
Speaker 2: work in a male dominated field world really and feel
Speaker 2: like I'm already second guest because I'm a woman. I
Speaker 2: worry that looking younger is not helping my case. I've
Speaker 2: been interviewing for some jobs, and some are in leadership positions.
Speaker 2: My mom suggested I wear more makeup and interviews to
Speaker 2: look older, but first, I suck at makeup, and second
Speaker 2: it seems disingenuous. I want to be respected for being me.
Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of sexism in the corporate world,
Speaker 2: and I'm definitely jaded. I just don't know what to
Speaker 2: do if I need to change my appearance, dress more mature.
Speaker 2: I've even considered wearing fake glasses to get more respect.
Speaker 2: Any advice would be great. Aaron hi erin Hi yo,
Speaker 2: yo yo.
Speaker 1: How's it going? Thanks for having me? Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: Abby wamback our special guest for today. Hi Abby, what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 5: Well?
Speaker 3: I have a lot of thoughts, mostly because I haven't
Speaker 3: subscribed to the patriarchal ideas of what womanhood could be.
Speaker 3: I've kind of gone the opposite route. However, I've recently
Speaker 3: texted Chelsea a couple of months ago because my face
Speaker 3: is starting to get older and I'm getting you know,
Speaker 3: crows feets and discolored eyes, the whole thing. So trying
Speaker 3: to figure out what the next steps are because you
Speaker 3: are going to get older. I do understand that it
Speaker 3: might feel bad to present younger and you aren't getting
Speaker 3: the same kind of spect I also think you teach
Speaker 3: people how to treat you one way or another energetically.
Speaker 3: I mean, I kind of like the idea that you
Speaker 3: might be seen as like an underdog. I thrive in that, like, oh,
Speaker 3: you think that I'm young, Oh you think I'm not
Speaker 3: good enough, Like, oh, I can't wait to prove you wrong.
Speaker 3: To me, it feels like it can be a positive,
Speaker 3: but I totally understand how it can feel lonely and
Speaker 3: debilitating on some level to try to progress in your career.
Speaker 3: I'm not the person to talk about makeup with because
Speaker 3: I'm like, no makeup is the best option.
Speaker 5: I'm kind of same boat.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, and I don't think that. I mean,
Speaker 3: how old are you? I'm twenty eight, Okay, you you
Speaker 3: look like you're twenty eight to me, I don't.
Speaker 5: I feel like, Yeah, everyone else in my life lately
Speaker 5: I've been telling me differently, so that's good to hear.
Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I hate the idea. I mean, my
Speaker 1: dad with my friend with this recently, or my friend
Speaker 1: is dealing with this in her job recently, that she
Speaker 1: needed to be dressing in a certain way for men
Speaker 1: to take her seriously. And I take a lot of
Speaker 1: offense to that, Like, I really don't think we should
Speaker 1: be reorganizing our looks to make people respect us more.
Speaker 1: That's not where respect comes from. Yeah, you want to
Speaker 1: throw on a pair of glasses, great, okay, But it's like,
Speaker 1: it's your disposition and it's your self assuredness that are
Speaker 1: going to gain respect from others and your work and
Speaker 1: your performance at work. So when you sharpen all of
Speaker 1: those things and focus on the task at hand. It's
Speaker 1: going to be indebutable, like how valuable you are based
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Your looks are going to
Speaker 1: become they're they're the first thing that people see and
Speaker 1: the first thing that people ingest. Unfortunately, but that doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be the way it remains. And I think
Speaker 1: our behavior dictates how we are treated in a workplace,
Speaker 1: even when you are surrounded by men, because eventually, after
Speaker 1: enough time goes by and you prove yourself to be
Speaker 1: a valuable employee, people are going to respect that and
Speaker 1: expect you to deliver value. Right, They're going to expect
Speaker 1: And so I think the quickest road there is the
Speaker 1: direct one where you're just proving by your performance how
Speaker 1: valuable you are and standing assuredly in your own shoes,
Speaker 1: you know, standing up tall, standing up for yourself, not waffling,
Speaker 1: not wavering. When men are trying to intimidate you, or
Speaker 1: they're just intimidating you and they're not trying you, Actually,
Speaker 1: that's a signal for you to be like, Okay, this
Speaker 1: is my opportunity. This is my opportunity to stand my ground.
Speaker 1: This is my opportunity to make a contribution here, Whether
Speaker 1: it's conversational. Whether it's like workflow wise or it's about
Speaker 1: a project, it's actually like an opportunity to gain respect
Speaker 1: each time that you deliver something of value. Because what
Speaker 1: I'm hearing from you is that you have a lot
Speaker 1: of self respect, right yeah, so use that in your job,
Speaker 1: and then that is going to be an undeniable thing
Speaker 1: to people. Once you just keep putting that foot forward,
Speaker 1: people are going to realize your value and you're going
Speaker 1: to get past the hair and the makeup and all
Speaker 1: that bullshit. That's all noise, that's I'm not real. Nobody
Speaker 1: can be judged solely based on their appearance. That was
Speaker 1: a very hard lesson for me to learn, because I
Speaker 1: believe everyone was supposed to be physically attractive for me
Speaker 1: to connect with. That's what I believe. For a long time,
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, I don't like the way that
Speaker 1: person looks. I don't think we can connect. It's like, wait,
Speaker 1: what I mean? People aren't here to physically please me?
Speaker 1: So it's actually so the opposite is true for you too,
Speaker 1: Like you know you're you are physically pleasing too many people,
Speaker 1: but that is not where your value comes from. So
Speaker 1: the two things are very separate, and they should stay separate,
Speaker 1: you know. And I wouldn't count out to what any
Speaker 1: anybody's expectations are. You don't need to dress up or
Speaker 1: any of that bullshit. That's just that's nonsense.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 1: You stick to what you know, and you stick to
Speaker 1: what you're good at, and people will catch on.
Speaker 3: I also think you said something in your letter that
Speaker 3: is really important. You said, I'm starting to become self conscious,
Speaker 3: and that is problematic when you start only seeing herself
Speaker 3: through the eyes from other people towards yourself. Becoming self
Speaker 3: conscious is to become aware of who you are and
Speaker 3: then to see out with your own eyes, to become
Speaker 3: the positive way of being. Like, to know thyself is
Speaker 3: such an important quality. But watch the vantage point. The
Speaker 3: vantage point is really important when it comes to self consciousness.
Speaker 3: And I think that the male gaze we forget that
Speaker 3: we shouldn't be putting our consciousness in the eyes of
Speaker 3: the male gaze.
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's something I struggle with for sure. It's how
Speaker 5: people perceive any constent.
Speaker 3: Yeah, y yes, I mean welcome to humanity, right, I'll
Speaker 3: do it. Instagram, all social media. It makes us all
Speaker 3: fucking crazy like that. But at the end of the day,
Speaker 3: you have to figure out what you want to feel
Speaker 3: and how you want to look. I mean, our kids,
Speaker 3: they use makeup and stuff, and we are conscious. We're
Speaker 3: always trying to ask. I'm like, are you doing this
Speaker 3: for you or for other people? And they know better.
Speaker 3: They're in high school now, they're like, I'm doing it
Speaker 3: for my own sense of self and we're like, okay,
Speaker 3: like we'll figure we'll deal with that problem another day.
Speaker 3: But that self consciousness piece was something that really stuck
Speaker 3: out in your letter.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good that's a good point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think people are sort of simple when
Speaker 2: it comes to like someone wearing a power suit and
Speaker 2: a pair of glasses. Might you know, some people might
Speaker 2: think they're smarter or more powerful, but you have to
Speaker 2: do what makes you feel powerful when you're going into
Speaker 2: these interviews. And to me, it doesn't sound like throwing
Speaker 2: on too much mescara is going to actually make you
Speaker 2: feel more powerful, right, It'll make you feel a little awkward.
Speaker 2: So I think, yeah, going in with the look that
Speaker 2: makes you feel most powerful, and also like you seem
Speaker 2: like a very confident person, so like really channeling that yeah, awesome.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And Resting in who you really are is actually
Speaker 1: the most powerful version of yourself that you can be,
Speaker 1: regardless of whether what situation, whether it's a work dynamic
Speaker 1: or whether it's a personal dynamic or it's a new
Speaker 1: person dynamic that you don't know. Resting like not pushing
Speaker 1: and actually resting in who you are, being present minded
Speaker 1: when you are there and you are in focus, that's
Speaker 1: what creates a flow state. That's what when you are
Speaker 1: really there, like working to the best of your ability
Speaker 1: and focusing on what your strengths are, knowing that you're
Speaker 1: of value like that projects to the next person, then
Speaker 1: that comes off of you and then that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of an undeniable way to be. You know, people can't
Speaker 1: argue with that because they don't know what it is,
Speaker 1: but they know that they need to respect it.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 5: Well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: Well you're welcome, so much, good luck and thank you.
Speaker 1: So go into your next meeting and tell all those
Speaker 1: jackasses to go fuck off. I will perfect tell them
Speaker 1: I sent you.
Speaker 4: Oh bye, okay, all right, well, our next caller is Chloe.
Speaker 2: Chloe says, dear Chelsea, longtime fan, love the show. I'm
Speaker 2: in my mid thirties and have been with my husband
Speaker 2: for over ten years. We met in my early twenties
Speaker 2: and have had a really great relationship. We've always been
Speaker 2: a bit different, me being more adventurous, outgoing and a dreamer.
Speaker 2: He's more down to earth and practical. He's handsome, has
Speaker 2: a good career, and has always treated me well. I
Speaker 2: always thought that our opposites attract type relationship was a
Speaker 2: good thing, but as the years have gone on, I
Speaker 2: feel like we've only grown more different and this has
Speaker 2: caused a lot of resentment. I feel like I'm being
Speaker 2: stifled and not living to my full potential. In an
Speaker 2: effort to help him feel more comfortable, I have a
Speaker 2: lot of things that I'm passionate about, my career, home renovation, travel,
Speaker 2: I fucking love skiing, and my friends. And side note
Speaker 2: about the home renovation, they recently purchased like a house
Speaker 2: to restore together, and I think that's been sort of
Speaker 2: a bone of contention. All of this can be very
Speaker 2: overwhelming for my husband. Additionally, I've always been straightforward about
Speaker 2: not wanting kids, and although he says he's okay with this,
Speaker 2: his words and actions throughout the years make me think otherwise.
Speaker 2: I don't want either of us to have to compromise
Speaker 2: so significantly for the other. And there hasn't been cheating,
Speaker 2: lies or scandal that people typically associate with a good
Speaker 2: reason for divorce. So am I wrong to feel that
Speaker 2: I might want one? I recently asked him for a
Speaker 2: trial separation and he has been devastated by this. Although
Speaker 2: some friends are very supportive, others think I'm crazy for
Speaker 2: leaving such a good man. Sometimes I do too, as
Speaker 2: an outsider. Do you feel my concerns could warrant a
Speaker 2: divorce or do I try and work it out? Chloe?
Speaker 6: Hi, Chloe, Hey, how's it going?
Speaker 2: Hi?
Speaker 1: How are you? This is Abby, our special guest.
Speaker 6: W I'm back Hi Abby, Hi Chelsea, Hi Catherine.
Speaker 1: Hi, Hi Chloe. So you asked your husband for a
Speaker 1: trial separation, but you're not separated yet, not officially. So
Speaker 1: listening to your letter be read by Catherine, I did
Speaker 1: not think you were going to go there. Can you
Speaker 1: get into more specifics of what drove you to this separation.
Speaker 1: It seems that he's leaning on you a little bit
Speaker 1: more heavily.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, you know, I think that you know, with relationships,
Speaker 6: it's never like one. I mean it can be, but
Speaker 6: a lot of times it's never just one specific thing.
Speaker 6: And I think that the final breaking point for me
Speaker 6: is we have this incredible, incredible home that I'm obsessed with.
Speaker 6: It's kind of like my project. It brings me a
Speaker 6: lot of purpose and joy. He fucking hates it, and
Speaker 6: we just kept arguing about it, and really it was
Speaker 6: just the culmination of everything of where our relationship was going,
Speaker 6: you know, him wanting maybe a little bit more of
Speaker 6: a simple life, simple career, you know, maybe starting a family,
Speaker 6: and me going in this other direction where I'm really
Speaker 6: growing a lot in my career, growing a lot in
Speaker 6: my passions. You know, I still like absolutely love to
Speaker 6: travel and be with my friend and have a really busy,
Speaker 6: crazy life that doesn't include the family. And there was
Speaker 6: just something that happened with this house that we have
Speaker 6: that was just a breaking point. I was just like,
Speaker 6: I gotta, I gotta step away from this. I just
Speaker 6: don't know if we are headed in the right direction anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, it sounds like he shouldn't be a part of
Speaker 1: that project to begin with, because, first of all, the
Speaker 1: number one reason couple's breakup is from a house renovations
Speaker 1: that happens I've been in. I was in a relationship
Speaker 1: with a man we were building. We bought these things
Speaker 1: and we were renovating them, and our designer was like,
Speaker 1: the number one reason couple's breakup is because of this,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, who are those
Speaker 1: people cut to? We fucking broke up. So, I mean
Speaker 1: because he was so annoying about this, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck, Like I couldn't believe he
Speaker 1: wanted to go to all these appointments with me, and
Speaker 1: it was just so annoying. But like, it's not for everybody.
Speaker 1: That's your passion clearly and not his. So like does
Speaker 1: he need to be involved?
Speaker 6: So we tried it both ways. We've flip flopped it
Speaker 6: several times. We've had this home for about five years now,
Speaker 6: and we've tried it where he's fully involved. We've tried
Speaker 6: it where it's partly involved, completely not involved, and none
Speaker 6: of the options have worked.
Speaker 1: None of the options have worked.
Speaker 6: None of the options have worked.
Speaker 1: Okay, and so you think a trial separation is where
Speaker 1: you're at.
Speaker 6: We are in trail separation right now. But we've been
Speaker 6: doing this now for a while, probably about six months
Speaker 6: or so, and I think where I'm at right now
Speaker 6: that I really need some help and advice on is
Speaker 6: I don't feel any different than I did when I
Speaker 6: asked for this. You know, when I asked for this,
Speaker 6: I actually felt really relieved. And the things that I
Speaker 6: do that are kind of separated from him excite me.
Speaker 6: And when I think about getting back together, I'm like,
Speaker 6: it gives me a lot of anxiety, to be honest,
Speaker 6: and the hard part is is he is overall a
Speaker 6: very good man. He is honest, he is good looking,
Speaker 6: he has a great job, He's always been very good
Speaker 6: to me. But I feel like I'm at this breaking
Speaker 6: point of like, is this still what I want to
Speaker 6: do for the rest of my life? I'm fucking scared
Speaker 6: of being alone. Am I giving up somebody who is
Speaker 6: a really, really good person who loves me a lot,
Speaker 6: just for the sake of more freedom?
Speaker 1: Are you guys in therapy?
Speaker 5: Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And has that gleaned any different feelings for you?
Speaker 1: Or is it just not really?
Speaker 6: I feel like it's just a competition constantly of like
Speaker 6: who's the better person or who's the worst person. I
Speaker 6: feel like we've changed therapists three times, and unfortunately way, you.
Speaker 1: Should change therapists if they're not working. That's what the
Speaker 1: problem so many people is that they think that they're
Speaker 1: stuck with the one they found. It's like, no, there
Speaker 1: are a million therapists out there. Well, they may be
Speaker 1: very busy right now, there's always somebody else, you know,
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I mean, from what you're saying,
Speaker 1: it seems like you have one foot out the door
Speaker 1: and you are out the door. And I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of people would be listening to this, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure are going, what's this woman's problem? You've got all
Speaker 1: these things that so many women would want, but it's
Speaker 1: still not enough for you. And that's fine too, Like
Speaker 1: you should know what's enough for you if this is
Speaker 1: going to fulfill you. You're saying that you're being excited by
Speaker 1: all these other things outside of your life that aren't
Speaker 1: involved in your marriage. I mean, that's your answer right there, right,
Speaker 1: And you want me to tell you to leave your husband? Gosh,
Speaker 1: I don't.
Speaker 6: I mean it's so fucking hard, you know, Like, yeah,
Speaker 6: you're right. A lot of women, including my friends, including
Speaker 6: my mother, they're all like, are you crazy? You know,
Speaker 6: he's crazy about you and you've got such a good
Speaker 6: thing going that so many people want.
Speaker 5: But I don't know.
Speaker 6: Maybe I am crazy, and maybe I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't think you're crazy. I just I just want
Speaker 1: to acknowledge all the women that are listening to this
Speaker 1: thinking because I know they are going, oh my god,
Speaker 1: what's this woman complaining about? And I would like to say,
Speaker 1: good for you for knowing that this isn't enough. Like
Speaker 1: it's good for you for being in touch with yourself
Speaker 1: and enough to know, Okay, I'm scared of being alone,
Speaker 1: but I'm not scared enough to not do it. That
Speaker 1: is a very powerful thing for a woman to feel,
Speaker 1: and I applaud that. And I think that you know
Speaker 1: the answers to these questions. And so I'm not going
Speaker 1: to give you any answers because I'm not going to
Speaker 1: decide your relationship for you, because you've already figured it out. Abby,
Speaker 1: You're nodding, what are you thinking?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that I don't know, Chelsea. I don't
Speaker 3: think you've been married and divorce right.
Speaker 1: No, No, I didn't want to get divorced, so I
Speaker 1: didn't get married.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think I might be the only one
Speaker 3: who's been through a divorce on this on this.
Speaker 1: Little perfect what don't you take it?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And I mean, Chelsea, you said it right. It sounds
Speaker 3: to me like you already know what you know and
Speaker 3: you're pulling the crowd with which you know. All of
Speaker 3: these people, myself included, can give you all the advice
Speaker 3: in the world, but you're the only one that really
Speaker 3: knows what you want. And people grow apart. I mean,
Speaker 3: I cared so much for my first wife, like we
Speaker 3: were mad about each other, and then things change, Life happens,
Speaker 3: You get to change your mind, you get to go
Speaker 3: in a different, a totally different direction what I want
Speaker 3: to say. And this was true for me, and I
Speaker 3: think it's true for all of us. There's something inside
Speaker 3: of you. Might be deep, you might be just starting
Speaker 3: to listen to her, but there's a part of you
Speaker 3: that is inside of you that you are listening to
Speaker 3: and it's always been there, And just turn up the
Speaker 3: volume on her a little bit now. Doesn't mean you're
Speaker 3: going to get a divorce. I have no idea, but
Speaker 3: there's something that it's trying to say, and I think
Speaker 3: that you deserve to sit and listen to that little
Speaker 3: part of you you and ps no matter what you decide.
Speaker 3: I'm here to tell you it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it is.
Speaker 3: It already is okay because you've got you. And that
Speaker 3: was one thing that I forgot when I was going
Speaker 3: through my divorce because I was so a mesh with
Speaker 3: my ex that I forgot that I had me independent
Speaker 3: of that other person. And that is a hard truth
Speaker 3: to swallow, especially because you committed to this marriage. And ps,
Speaker 3: if you do choose to get a divorce, that does
Speaker 3: not mean that your marriage was a failure. These are contracts.
Speaker 3: Maybe your contract with this person is up. That's for
Speaker 3: you to decide, and it's gonna be okay. And I
Speaker 3: know how fucking hard it is, and I'm sorry because
Speaker 3: it is a really big stress and it is hard.
Speaker 3: Both things can be true at the same time. Staying
Speaker 3: is hard, leaving is hard.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
Speaker 6: I mean so much of what you said hits so true.
Speaker 6: I do feel like there is this internal voice that's
Speaker 6: just like screaming that something's not right.
Speaker 3: Chills. I just got chills all over my body.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also, you know it's not going to feel like
Speaker 1: this initially, but when you leave a situation that isn't
Speaker 1: right for you. You're acting in service to both of you,
Speaker 1: to you and your husband, because he deserves to be
Speaker 1: with someone who does love him and who he can
Speaker 1: share his life with and you know, not have to
Speaker 1: have a person there kind of figuring out.
Speaker 3: There is no such thing as one way liberation. Liz
Speaker 3: Gilbert says that there is no such thing as one
Speaker 3: way liberation. You will be doing him a service. Also.
Speaker 6: Oh, I believe that too, you know, especially with the
Speaker 6: Although he says that he is happy enough with me
Speaker 6: to stay with just me together without having a family,
Speaker 6: I do think deep down that's really what he wants
Speaker 6: to and I think that in this I could really
Speaker 6: see that for him in the future, and I want
Speaker 6: him to have that if that's what she really wants.
Speaker 1: Yeah, happy enough isn't good enough?
Speaker 6: So true?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, Okay, Well I'm glad you called in.
Speaker 6: I am so grateful and glad that you guys had me. Honestly,
Speaker 6: I mean, I've tried a lot, tread therapy, tried taro
Speaker 6: and tell a lot of things. I'm like, hey, I'm
Speaker 6: gonna try Chelsea and whatever. Awesome guess she has on board.
Speaker 1: Awesome. Thank you so much for calling in, and good
Speaker 1: luck to you, Thank you bye. That's a good caller
Speaker 1: for our listeners to listen to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like the answer is easier when it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: this person is a monster. When the person's not a monster,
Speaker 2: it's such a harder decision.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's like it's so powerful to just go
Speaker 1: this is good, but it's not good enough. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: isn't enough for me. Like that's our lives are supposed
Speaker 1: to be as as great as we can possibly make them,
Speaker 1: not just like Okay, I hit this marker, I'm good,
Speaker 1: right Abby? What what you never? Are you? A? Seven?
Speaker 1: Enthusiasts on the Enneagram? Okay, yeah, I'm an eight?
Speaker 3: What is an eight? Chelsea? What's an eight?
Speaker 1: An eight is a fixer like come in, fix it
Speaker 1: and then but but harsh, like hard, like just wants
Speaker 1: to come in fix everybody's problems and then fuck off.
Speaker 1: That's exactly who I am. I'm like, please don't bother
Speaker 1: me again. Okay, but seven, that's interesting to know the
Speaker 1: enthusiast has has to do work on their shadows self,
Speaker 1: because this enthusiast is like the happiest kind of number
Speaker 1: on the on the spectrum. I think forward facing like
Speaker 1: big vibes, good vibes, happy. Yeah, So that's interesting because yeah,
Speaker 1: if I have this new therapist who says, like, if
Speaker 1: this is true, the equal and opposite thing is true. Right,
Speaker 1: if you're feeling great and you're feeling expansive and you
Speaker 1: want and you're just joyful, like be careful because they're
Speaker 1: the equal and opposite part is true too, and you're
Speaker 1: just not tuned into that. And it's like, oh, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's important to know. You know, everything is a balance,
Speaker 1: You're not just nobody is one thing, and in fact,
Speaker 1: if somebody is a lot of they're also a lot
Speaker 1: of the opposite of that thing.
Speaker 3: That's right. And I think that I, I mean, my
Speaker 3: whole family would describe me as like an M and M.
Speaker 3: I have like a hard exterior shell, but I'm so
Speaker 3: gooey and like soft on the inside. But because of
Speaker 3: what I did for so long as an athlete, you know,
Speaker 3: I basically put on armor to protect myself from these
Speaker 3: parts of sadness or sorrow or heartbreak or grief. And
Speaker 3: I did a really good job because I'm very strong
Speaker 3: and I'm very powerful and I have a lot of willpower.
Speaker 3: But yeah, I mean all the parts of yourself have
Speaker 3: to get seen and they need the light of day.
Speaker 3: It's hard work, I tell you what, It's not easy.
Speaker 3: It's not easy to sit and literally sit in the
Speaker 3: grief and let it drop from your head. You know,
Speaker 3: I went through a few weeks of bargaining and trying
Speaker 3: to find the justice in it and trying to understand
Speaker 3: it and make meaning of it. And it's like, I
Speaker 3: don't I don't think that that's you can't do grief
Speaker 3: in your head. It's just got to go through you,
Speaker 3: all through your body. And you know, Chelsea, I know
Speaker 3: you lost your brother when you were super young, which
Speaker 3: is a different experience. But it's just like it's the
Speaker 3: worst and also oddly the best. It's weird to go
Speaker 3: through the to go through it the way that I'm
Speaker 3: going through it. It's like I feel like I'm really trying.
Speaker 3: I'm honoring my brother, whatever the fuck that means.
Speaker 1: Well, I think as an adult, especially someone who has
Speaker 1: been to therapy, you have way more tools to deal
Speaker 1: with that kind of loss, and you can make more
Speaker 1: sense out of it. Even though it's senseless, it is
Speaker 1: a fact of life and a part of life that
Speaker 1: we all have to deal with is losing loved ones.
Speaker 1: And as we get older, we have more skill sets
Speaker 1: and we have more capacity to understand that life is
Speaker 1: bigger than what we know, and that we know less
Speaker 1: than we think we do, and we accept that we
Speaker 1: don't know and there are things we don't have answers
Speaker 1: to and that we never will And so trying to
Speaker 1: make sense out of death is pointless. There is no sense.
Speaker 1: It's not sensical. It's the same thing that's what happens
Speaker 1: in war. It's not sensical. There's no way to make
Speaker 1: sense of it, you know. So I think you know
Speaker 1: your body has to go through a grieving process separate
Speaker 1: from your mind, and you have to have a lot
Speaker 1: of work under your belt to understand the difference between
Speaker 1: those two things, and that the that they your mind
Speaker 1: and body work in concert, but they're also very disconnected,
Speaker 1: you know, until you do the work to connect them.
Speaker 1: That's why, like when people get nervous they start shaking
Speaker 1: or they start quivering, it's like that's because your brain
Speaker 1: is sending your body a signal that you're not comfortable,
Speaker 1: that you're not prepared, that you're scared, that you're fearful,
Speaker 1: that you're nervous, whatever those signals are. It's like, that's
Speaker 1: how everything works in that circuitry. It's not easily measured,
Speaker 1: so people don't take it seriously. You know, energy and
Speaker 1: and body mind chemistry and connection. I mean, we're learning
Speaker 1: more about it now, but it is fascinating and I
Speaker 1: love to learn about that because you hear about so
Speaker 1: many people. You know, they have a physical reaction to something,
Speaker 1: but they don't understand why because their brain has repressed
Speaker 1: that memory, but their body remembers that feeling.
Speaker 3: Well. Yeah, being an athlete, I think that, especially an
Speaker 3: elite athlete for thirty plus years, I learned how to
Speaker 3: mind over matter physical experience. So the suffering that it takes,
Speaker 3: the lifting weights, the sprints, the diety like whatever it was,
Speaker 3: I was able to do it. And so I have
Speaker 3: this unconscious belief I think that I can beat grief,
Speaker 3: that like, I don't need to do it because I
Speaker 3: know how to mentally leapfrog all of these difficult things,
Speaker 3: these outward these external struggles, and that just ain't it.
Speaker 3: It's just not it. And I've thought a lot about
Speaker 3: that in the last few months, like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 3: this is unlike anything I have been tested at and
Speaker 3: it's confusing for my body because my body's like, we
Speaker 3: can do anything. You are a superstar, like what's happening,
Speaker 3: And my body's like, Nope, can't do it. Like just
Speaker 3: even these last two weeks, I've been like I can't
Speaker 3: even go for a walk. I've just like kacooned myself.
Speaker 3: And there's this little wise part of myself that's like
Speaker 3: speaking up, going, yes, this is what you need. Be still.
Speaker 3: You have used your body to jump out of grief before,
Speaker 3: you have used your body to overcome and not pay
Speaker 3: attention to some of this stuff. So it's to be still,
Speaker 3: feel sorrow, feel sad, whatever it might be.
Speaker 1: Absolutely Okay, we're going to take a break and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back to wrap things up with you. Abby
Speaker 1: wan back. Okay, we're back, Abby. Thank you for your candor.
Speaker 1: I loved hearing you talk about therapy. I'm sure many
Speaker 1: of our listeners also loved it. It's so nice when
Speaker 1: you are able to talk freely about getting help right Like,
Speaker 1: it's such a gift to other people to hear that
Speaker 1: you're not nobody's alone and nobody's going through it as
Speaker 1: something that no one else has been through because that's
Speaker 1: just not true.
Speaker 3: That's right. Every person on the planet has and is
Speaker 3: or is currently experiencing something that you're experienced, Like this
Speaker 3: experience down here is not one sided. We're doing it together.
Speaker 3: Whether we will like that or not, it's happening, and
Speaker 3: there are experts out there that can help navigate and
Speaker 3: help us navigate for ourselves the life that we want
Speaker 3: and the way in which we want to go about it. Right,
Speaker 3: And I get that not everybody buys into some forms
Speaker 3: of therapy, but there are so many different kinds of therapy.
Speaker 3: You know, you have talk therapy, you have a lot
Speaker 3: of psychedelic stuff that's happening in the world. You've got
Speaker 3: for me, this IFS Internal family systems. People should look
Speaker 3: into it because it's a totally different approach where it
Speaker 3: makes it so much less personal, which feels counterintuitive, but
Speaker 3: it really works for me because especially with all the
Speaker 3: shame stuff that I could go down with it with
Speaker 3: my addictive behaviors. There's just so many different kinds. So
Speaker 3: maybe you go to a therapist and it doesn't work
Speaker 3: for you, find a different therapist that's in a different
Speaker 3: genre of therapy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, IFS. I've read about and I'm interested and curious
Speaker 1: to hear more about it. We should find somebody who
Speaker 1: could speak to that. Catherine on the podcast because I
Speaker 1: liked what I read so far.
Speaker 3: Dick Schwartz is the guy. We actually just had him
Speaker 3: on our podcast. He's like the father of it.
Speaker 1: And okay.
Speaker 3: He took me, Glennon and Amanda through an exercise, an
Speaker 3: IFS exercise, which I think you should just have him
Speaker 3: on it. It's super interesting. I think that you would
Speaker 3: actually really really like it, Chelsea, love it.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we will thank you Abby so much. So
Speaker 1: great to see you.
Speaker 3: So good to see you guys. Thank you so much
Speaker 3: for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, anytime, take care and come back for sure. Okay. So,
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler is my name, and comedy is my game.
Speaker 1: Comedy and therapy. There are my games. I'm sorry I misspoke.
Speaker 1: I have added more shows. I added a second show
Speaker 1: in Vancouver, so I have two shows in Vancouver March
Speaker 1: twenty ninth March thirtieth, I am coming to Calgary, Victoria, Colowna.
Speaker 1: Then I've added another show in Sydney, Australia on July thirteenth,
Speaker 1: So I have two shows in Sydney July twelfth and thirteenth.
Speaker 1: For other shows in Australia at New Zealand, go to
Speaker 1: Chelsea Handler dot com. And I've added two shows in Oklahoma, Norman,
Speaker 1: Oklahoma on May third, and one in Thackerville, Oklahoma, which
Speaker 1: is May fourth, and then I'll be at the YouTube
Speaker 1: Theater May eleventh in Los Angeles with Matteo Laine and
Speaker 1: Vanessa Gonzalez and Fortune Femster and Sam Jay. Those are
Speaker 1: my updates and more shows are coming, so pay attention.
Speaker 2: If you'd like advice from Chelsea, shoot us an email
Speaker 2: at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and be
Speaker 2: sure to include your phone number. Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 2: and engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Katherine Law and
Speaker 2: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
Speaker 2: com