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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know

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Speaker 1: from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always Charles W.

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Speaker 1: Chuck Bryant Party and we're recording this is stuff you

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Speaker 1: should know the aggressive version. Hey dude, Hey, dude, how

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Speaker 1: are you? I'm tired. Hey, We're almost out of here. Man,

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Speaker 1: I'm not. Let's wrap this puppy up. I'm not almost

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Speaker 1: out of here. This is just like the middle of

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Speaker 1: my day. You're working to like ten, and then you

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Speaker 1: working Saturday. I'm working Sunday, So are you, Poul? That's right? Um, Chuck? Yes, Josh.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when we talked about brainwashing? We did

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Speaker 1: a brainwashing one, right, Yeah? I enjoyed that one. I

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Speaker 1: did too. Do you remember we talked about the Koreans

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Speaker 1: brainwash American Peo dotes that's against the rules the rules

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Speaker 1: of what the rules of war. I have more examples.

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Speaker 1: Do you have you ever heard of the dak How massacre,

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Speaker 1: the Dacha? Yes, yeah, you have the Dacha massacre. Yes

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Speaker 1: you have, well, I mean you've you secretly told me,

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Speaker 1: have you seen well, you've seen Shutter Island, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was a connection there. Yeah, the

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Speaker 1: flashbacks where Leonardo DiCaprio is like in the army and

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Speaker 1: they're at this concentration camp and they're shooting the German guards.

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Speaker 1: That actually happened, Yes, at Dachau. The American liberators who

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Speaker 1: came like came and saw this and like, we're apparently

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Speaker 1: so overwhelmed by it that they lined up the s

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Speaker 1: S officers against the wall, seventy five of them and

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Speaker 1: shot him. I guess I didn't know about it then. Yeah, so, um,

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Speaker 1: it didn't come out until two do one actually that

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Speaker 1: this actually happened. It was covered up, ignored, but it

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Speaker 1: was against the rules. I can't do that, ABU great,

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Speaker 1: remember that one. Yeah, that's been the news that was

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Speaker 1: against like six or seven different rules, and all of

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Speaker 1: these are there against the rules of war. It's actually

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Speaker 1: kind of to me a triumph of the human spirit

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Speaker 1: to know that there we've tried to figure out how

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Speaker 1: to create structure insanity in a chaotic and insane institution.

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Speaker 1: That's why do we look at it? What's another way, Well,

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Speaker 1: what I was the most struck with was that how

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Speaker 1: messed up it is that you have to keep revisiting

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Speaker 1: this over the years because all of these rules that

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Speaker 1: are in here are there because someone tried to do

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Speaker 1: something awful to someone else, and that they said you

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Speaker 1: can't do that in war, right, And so then then

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Speaker 1: they said, oh, well, then let's think of something else

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Speaker 1: awful we can do, and then they said, well, you

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Speaker 1: can't do that now either. Well. In this article that

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Speaker 1: Julia Layton wrote how the Rules of War work, she

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Speaker 1: makes the point that as the technology of war progresses,

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Speaker 1: it usually means that we're going to we are figuring

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Speaker 1: out more horrible ways to inflict damage on one another.

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Speaker 1: And so as that happens as technology progresses, the people

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Speaker 1: who oversee the rules of war are trying to come

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Speaker 1: up with new ways to stem that progression. Right. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: that that's a little mopier way of looking at it

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Speaker 1: than mine. That's weird because you're usually the moupier one.

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Speaker 1: Usually interesting, Chuck, Let's talk about the rules of war.

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Speaker 1: Where did they come from? How long have they been around? Well,

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Speaker 1: they've been around for a long time, but prior to

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, they were established per battle and per

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Speaker 1: countries participating in that battle, and that was where they

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Speaker 1: ended there, like for this skirmish where you can do this,

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Speaker 1: this and this, but you can't do this, this and this.

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Speaker 1: Once that skirmish was over, or once that war was over,

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Speaker 1: then they would say, all right, for forget all that then,

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Speaker 1: and let's just we'll make up a new set of

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Speaker 1: rules if we fight again. Yeah, And then next time

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Speaker 1: they were like, no, was scalping. That was messed up

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Speaker 1: last time, do not scalp in this one. Finally, at

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Speaker 1: some point, uh, well, actually we know exactly the point. Um.

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Speaker 1: In eighteen fifty nine, a guy named Henry de Nant,

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Speaker 1: who went on to found the Red Cross UM and

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Speaker 1: was one of the was the co recipient of the

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Speaker 1: first Nobel Prize. I understand, huh. Um came upon a

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Speaker 1: battlefield after the Battle of Salaferno in Italy in eighteen

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Speaker 1: fifty nine. That's German and Italian in one podcast. Um.

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Speaker 1: He came upon this battlefield, I guess right after the

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Speaker 1: battle that happened, and there were all these dying wounded

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Speaker 1: soldiers laying around, and he he gathered up the villagers

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Speaker 1: around the countryside and said, we have to treat these

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Speaker 1: people and treat everybody both sides because we're human beings

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Speaker 1: and that's what we do. That's one of the things

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Speaker 1: that the Red Cross still does today in wars. Their

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Speaker 1: neutral party, not on either side, the Red Cross and

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Speaker 1: the Red Crescent um and they treat everybody regardless of

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Speaker 1: um what side they're on. Sure, right, Um, So that

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Speaker 1: happened in eighteen fifty nine. It gave birth to the

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Speaker 1: Red Cross, and it gave birth to the first Geneva Convention, right, yes.

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Speaker 1: And I think I told you at some point we

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Speaker 1: were chatting about this that the whole convention aspect of

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Speaker 1: it kind of cracks me up a little bit because

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Speaker 1: I always picture like a bunch of world leaders with

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Speaker 1: their name tags. Hi, my name is kaiserville Helm mulling

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Speaker 1: about some Hilton conference room. Imagine that's how it went out.

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Speaker 1: But uh, with the first Geneva Convention, is uh when

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Speaker 1: they in eighteen sixty four, did you already say that

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Speaker 1: they started becoming an international thing where it crossed the boundaries,

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Speaker 1: that crossed the time frames and there were solid rules

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Speaker 1: for everybody for any more they were just standing rules

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Speaker 1: of war. That looks more sustinct way saying it. Sure,

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Speaker 1: and the first, the first Geneva Convention produced the Convention

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Speaker 1: for the Amelioration of the Edition of the Wounded and

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Speaker 1: Sick and Armed Forces in the Field. Yeah. Yeah, that

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Speaker 1: was the first one. Like you said, over time, as

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Speaker 1: we saw new atrocities take place, they went and created

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Speaker 1: and amended the existing conventions, created new ones. So there

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Speaker 1: was a Convention Um that addressed sick shipwrecked members of

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Speaker 1: the Armed Forces at sea. Yeah. They forgot the seamen

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Speaker 1: and the first one and they said, yeah, we gotta

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Speaker 1: think about those guys exactly. There's the rules can governing

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Speaker 1: the treatment of POW's. And then the fourth Convention Um,

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Speaker 1: which is ratified in nineteen fifty four, was the treatment

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Speaker 1: of civilians, not surprisingly shortly after World War two. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and actually after World War two that drove the first

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Speaker 1: Geneva Convention, and actually the first three we're all created

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Speaker 1: before World War two, um, And people were like, that's

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Speaker 1: really nice, we like that, it's a great idea. And

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Speaker 1: then World War two happened and everybody came to the

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Speaker 1: table under the auspices of the u IN and said

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Speaker 1: we we need these. So a hundred and ninety countries

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Speaker 1: have ratified the Geneva Conventions, and you get the impression

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Speaker 1: that if you want to be recognized as a sovereign

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Speaker 1: nation internationally, that's one of the steps toward toward being

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Speaker 1: an independent nations. You got to ratify the Geneva Conventions. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: otherwise what are you doing? You're just some rogue jerk

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Speaker 1: jerk country. So that's the Geneva Conventions, and we'll get

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Speaker 1: more into those later, but they're also everyone's heard of

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Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention. Not many people have heard of the

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Speaker 1: Hague Conventions, although they should because they were just as important.

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Speaker 1: There were the Haguen the Netherlands is where these took place,

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Speaker 1: and they were called the also called the International Peace Conferences. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: about the same time that the Geneva Conventions were being held, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And they had one in seven They were gonna have

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Speaker 1: one peace conference and then they decided to cancel it

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Speaker 1: and have a World war instead, and that was World

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Speaker 1: War One, obviously, and they the hag Conventions fall into

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Speaker 1: categories of combat, weaponry, property rights, and duties of neutral countries.

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Speaker 1: But in addition, so a lot of the a lot

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Speaker 1: of the rules established in the Hage Conventions are similar

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Speaker 1: to the rules of the Geneva convensions. They overlap, but

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Speaker 1: one of one of the things that defines the Hague

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Speaker 1: Conventions specifically is that there are steps outlined to prevent war. Right,

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Speaker 1: So there's UM two in the lead up the build

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Speaker 1: up to war. There's steps you have to take too

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Speaker 1: to be in step legally with the Hag Conventions, which

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Speaker 1: are there's like a thirty day cooling off period time

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Speaker 1: out right, UM, arbitration, mediation, liberation, Sorry that was in

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Speaker 1: access UM Committees of inquiry. Yeah, Basically, you have to

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Speaker 1: UM also declare war formally, or you have to declare

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Speaker 1: an ultimatum saying like give me back my sandwich and

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Speaker 1: pull your troops out of my South Asian territories, or

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna come at you. And that's after they've gone

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Speaker 1: through all the previous steps, the thirty day time out

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Speaker 1: in the corner and everything else has failed. Then you

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Speaker 1: have to officially send the evite saying we're going to

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Speaker 1: attack you at some point, not to distance surprise attack

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Speaker 1: illegal Pearl harbor and actually right, that's illegal. UM. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons why they the democratic peace theory works.

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Speaker 1: So democratic peace theories based on the idea that democracies,

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Speaker 1: especially democracies that follow these conventions, are so transparent that

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Speaker 1: two democracies will never go to war because they're both

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Speaker 1: following the same transparent steps in the lead up to war,

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Speaker 1: and communication will be um much more open um. One

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Speaker 1: of the you a surprise attack is impossible, not only illegal,

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Speaker 1: but impossible because they have vibrant independent media. Right, so

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Speaker 1: so democratic piece theory says that two democracies will never

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Speaker 1: go to war. I don't know that's necessarily true, but

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Speaker 1: it's based in part on this Hague convention. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: combat and weaponry and the Hague Conventions. They're pretty obvious.

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Speaker 1: Things like you can't fly a white flag and then

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Speaker 1: shoot someone in the face, which apparently Iraqi soldiers did

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Speaker 1: in two thousand three in the US invaded. Not very nice. Illegal,

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Speaker 1: You cannot if a person has surrendered or as injured,

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Speaker 1: then that's it for them. You can't go shoot them

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Speaker 1: in the face. I mean, you gotta treat him. While

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Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a minute too. If a

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Speaker 1: person has a visible or an audible speech impediment, you

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Speaker 1: can't make fun of him. That's very true. You can't

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Speaker 1: attack a defenseless person. You can't like attack a hospital

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Speaker 1: or a building being used as a hospital. No, that's

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Speaker 1: what they call using a human shield. And there's a

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Speaker 1: huge no no, and it's yeah, that's big time jerk

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Speaker 1: quality right there. Uh. Natural, And see, this is what

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Speaker 1: I thought was kind of interesting. National and cultural symbols

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Speaker 1: are protected, So you can't desecrate a flag or use

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Speaker 1: the enemy's flag. You can like dress up as a

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Speaker 1: soldier and say I'm really a Nazi, even though all

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Speaker 1: those movies they always did stuff like that. Yeah, well

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Speaker 1: it's illegal. Inglorious. Maybe it's sensible, but it's illegal. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The whole movie they were dressed up, well not the

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Speaker 1: whole movie, but a significant portion of it. Yeah, they

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Speaker 1: dressed his Nazis to kill Nazis. That was a great movie.

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Speaker 1: It was pretty awesome, Chuck. You also can't hide out

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Speaker 1: in museums or libraries, well yeah, you can't. Certainly can't

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Speaker 1: bomb them, just like just like a hospital, they're protected

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Speaker 1: as well. To talk a little more about later, Um,

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Speaker 1: and there's certain weapons you can't use. The Higgs specifically,

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Speaker 1: says Um. The right of belligerents to adopt means of

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Speaker 1: injuring the enemy is not unlimited. Right, So basically, you

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Speaker 1: can't use poison bullets, you can't use poison gas, you

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Speaker 1: can't use weapons that are designed to inflict further harm

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Speaker 1: beyond the initial injury. Yeah, Like they have those bullets

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Speaker 1: that once they get inside of you start doing all

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Speaker 1: sorts of wacky thing for further damage. Like they have

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Speaker 1: the bow ties that spin around, flapping dickies. Uh. Chemical

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Speaker 1: and biological warfare is made illegal all the way back in. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sarin gas, chlorine gas, uh, mustard gas, all those are

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Speaker 1: old timey poison gases. Yeah. Yeah, smallpox can't do that.

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Speaker 1: So we were talking about wounded and sick. Uh. Basically

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Speaker 1: the Hague Conventions spells it out pretty clearly. If you're

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Speaker 1: wounded and you're sick, or if you see us another

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Speaker 1: soldier an enemy that's wounded or sick, you gotta help him. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and we should probably say about at this point that

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Speaker 1: you can, um, you can break down the Hagen Geneva

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Speaker 1: Conventions by like combat weaponry treatment a civilian ship, or

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Speaker 1: you can look at them the rules for overarching as

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Speaker 1: they apply to the different groups involved, and the group

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Speaker 1: with the least amount of protection are active combatants, right,

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Speaker 1: but once you be once you're injured or you're sick

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Speaker 1: and you're no longer capable of fighting, you slip into

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Speaker 1: the sick or wounded soldier category and you suddenly enjoy

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Speaker 1: far more protections than if you have a gun and

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Speaker 1: you're coming at somebody. Right. Well, yeah, not like I said,

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Speaker 1: not only can you not uh shoot the guy in

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Speaker 1: the face, you have to help them or at least

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Speaker 1: allow them to be helped by like the Red Cross,

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Speaker 1: right and chuck Like, you can't just walk away right now,

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Speaker 1: like after a battle. You can't just walk away from

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Speaker 1: the battlefield after you've won. You can't just release the chows.

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Speaker 1: Which did you know that that's what childs were originally

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Speaker 1: bred for in China? Did not know that they would

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Speaker 1: release them onto the battlefield? They chew the throat side

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Speaker 1: of survivors. Yes, is that what the suckers are? So

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Speaker 1: puffy and mean? Um, we used to have childs. Actually

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Speaker 1: they're not mean, so you, but they are protective. You

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Speaker 1: can do some damage, true, Um, but you can't release

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Speaker 1: the child's out in the battlefield. But not only that,

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Speaker 1: you can't just walk away from the battle field. You

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Speaker 1: you have to um help injured soldiers. You gotta help

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Speaker 1: it the injured, and you gotta clean your plate. You

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Speaker 1: can't just leave the deadline around every No, as a

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Speaker 1: matter of fact, you have to give the enemy soldiers

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Speaker 1: that you've killed a burial that's appropriate to their religions.

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Speaker 1: You're supposed to and at the beginning of every war,

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Speaker 1: they're supposed to be a graves Registration Service, which is

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Speaker 1: neutral party like the Red Cross, and it's possibly operated

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Speaker 1: by the Red Cross. Where you bury a bunch of

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Speaker 1: soldiers and you say you you contact the graves Registration

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Speaker 1: Service and say, there's a bunch of dead soldiers here

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Speaker 1: we killed, and they're buried here and here the coordinates,

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Speaker 1: and the the graves Registration Service provides each side with these coordinates.

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Speaker 1: After the wars, the bodies can be exhumed and sent home.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, not only that, but you're you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: return all property found on the body. So you can't

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Speaker 1: like you see in the movies where you go looting

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Speaker 1: the body of of trinkets and things to take home

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Speaker 1: like a broach. Right, let's say you can't do that.

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Speaker 1: You're supposed to mail that to their next of ken,

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Speaker 1: which kind of wonder about that how often that happens.

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Speaker 1: I wonder it myself. You cannot perform experiments on a

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Speaker 1: wounded or sick person like the Nazis love to do.

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Speaker 1: That's a big one. Uh. And that's about it for

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Speaker 1: the second wounded, and it's biological experiments. But I think

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Speaker 1: also brainwashing sure constitute an experiment, and you're not allowed

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Speaker 1: to do that either. UM. So let's say that you

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Speaker 1: have been caught, you you are, you received treatment from

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Speaker 1: the enemy, um, and they're like, well, you're well, now

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Speaker 1: you're a pow. Do you still have some pretty wide

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Speaker 1: um protections? Actually? Yeah, this is a fact at your

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Speaker 1: next cocktail party that you should pull out of your

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Speaker 1: hip pocket. You. If you're a pow, you're a prisoner

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Speaker 1: of the country, not a prisoner of the soldier or

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Speaker 1: the platoon or the commander in chief of that region.

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Speaker 1: You're a prisoner of the United States of America if

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Speaker 1: that's who is fighting against America America. But not only that, um,

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Speaker 1: your detention is legal under international law. Therefore, an escape

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Speaker 1: is illegal and can be punished unless you make it

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Speaker 1: to your other side, to your side, and then they

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Speaker 1: wipe this slight clean, right, it's totally clean like you

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Speaker 1: were never captured in the first place. So if you're

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Speaker 1: a spy and you're caught and your hell is a POW,

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Speaker 1: you're going to be tried as a spy and possibly hanged.

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Speaker 1: If you escape two, say an occupied territory that your

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Speaker 1: army controls, you are your detention is just wiped off

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Speaker 1: the map. And if you're caught again, say as a

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Speaker 1: regular soldier, you can't be tried as a spy. It's

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Speaker 1: like it never happened. Isn't that interesting? That's kind of

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Speaker 1: cool telling about name rank and serial number. Yeah, you've

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Speaker 1: you've often heard that in movies. Um, that is definitely

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Speaker 1: a part of the Third Geneva Convention. But it is

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Speaker 1: not merely for name identification. But you are awarded privileges

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Speaker 1: if you are an off sir in europow, Like you

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Speaker 1: don't have to dig the latrine ditches like the privates

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Speaker 1: and the corporals do. If you're an officer, you have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a I don't know about cush

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Speaker 1: your life, but you could drink ticket every day. You

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Speaker 1: can train. But it's like when you see all the

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Speaker 1: World War two movies, like The Great Escape, the Officers, Um,

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Speaker 1: they were always had a little bit better deal than

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Speaker 1: than their men, like they were the ones. Like Hogan's heroes,

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Speaker 1: Hogan was always meeting with the uh what was with claim?

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Speaker 1: But the rest of the guys wouldn't meet. It was

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Speaker 1: always Hogan because he was the main, the main man.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever see Auto Focus? You're gonna say that

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Speaker 1: it's hard to watch Hogan's heroes ever again? And auto Focus? God,

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Speaker 1: I love that. Yeah, it's right up your alley. H

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Speaker 1: The other thing about POWs is, um they are prisoners,

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Speaker 1: much like a civilian prisoner would be, and they're innocent

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Speaker 1: until proven guilty, supposedly, and you have to treat him

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Speaker 1: as such. Um. So, if you are captured, is a

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Speaker 1: POW you are, or if you're captured you're required to

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Speaker 1: grant this person POW status if you're supposed to err

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Speaker 1: on the side of caution. There's very sure whether they're

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Speaker 1: POW or not, right, but there's a very specific qualifications

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Speaker 1: that you have to classify them. If they are obviously

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Speaker 1: members of the armed force. They can be a member

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Speaker 1: of a militia or a volunteer corps. Right, still got

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Speaker 1: to be a pow. Right, they could be some guy

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Speaker 1: who you who happened to be like carrying a gun

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Speaker 1: out in the open, and you still have to say

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Speaker 1: we're going to treat you like a POW until we

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Speaker 1: set up a tribunal and they say, no, he's not

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Speaker 1: a POW. Is a common criminal. Members of the media

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Speaker 1: traveling with the armed forces, they have to be granted

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Speaker 1: POW status and it's about it a cruise of merchant

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Speaker 1: marine and civil aircraft they're working with army. One of

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Speaker 1: the reasons why Abu Grab and the treatment, the degradation

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Speaker 1: at Abu Grab was so illegal was because these combatants

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Speaker 1: weren't granted POW status right off the bat. These captured

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Speaker 1: combatants were treated as criminals. Basically, they were imprisoned. So

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Speaker 1: that's one. You can't imprison a POW. You can intern

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Speaker 1: them in an internment camp. Do they have borders, but

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Speaker 1: not a cell. It's another one. Unless they're like a

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Speaker 1: specific danger, then you can work around that, which is

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Speaker 1: probably what they said. Um, you can't subject them to

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Speaker 1: degrading treatment interrogation. Interrogation basically amounts to you ask him

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Speaker 1: a question and it's up to them whether they want

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Speaker 1: to answer it or not. And if they don't want

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Speaker 1: to answer then you that's it. You can't ask them

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Speaker 1: again even they can't be coerced or tortured under any

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Speaker 1: definition of torture. Um, and you can't, um, they can't

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Speaker 1: their detention can't be paraded in front of the media.

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Speaker 1: That was another thing too. I mean you remember Lyndy

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Speaker 1: England right, pointing and like, did you ever see the

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Speaker 1: mad magazine one? Or is alfredy Newman is now it's again? Um?

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Speaker 1: So there were several reasons why Abu Gray was just

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Speaker 1: so horrendous. Well, yeah, and you also have to grant

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Speaker 1: them any any rights that your own soldiers get like food, water, shelter, clothing, exercise,

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Speaker 1: correspondence like you have to. You have to let them

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Speaker 1: know exactly where they are, and you have to make

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Speaker 1: them available to receive mail from their families. Yeah. Not

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Speaker 1: only did you have to tell them where they are,

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Speaker 1: you have to give them the mailing address so that

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Speaker 1: they can receive care packages, letters, whatever. Crazy So Chuck,

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Speaker 1: that's POWs right, Ah, yeah, pretty much. Let's talk about civilians.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember Red Dawn. We've talked about this often.

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Speaker 1: I should say that recently when we were hanging out

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Speaker 1: with our friend Chad, he remarked after I said that

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Speaker 1: I had just recently seen The Fly David Krodenberg's The

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Speaker 1: Fly for the first time, that he had just seen

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Speaker 1: Red don for the first time. And you, I thought,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna beat him up, punch him in the face.

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Speaker 1: I just don't understand how you could. He's our age

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Speaker 1: our ages. Yeah, he seems like it. He should have

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Speaker 1: seen Red Dawn long before this. That's hadn't seen war

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Speaker 1: games if you were a child, like a teenage boy

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Speaker 1: in the eighties. So back to it, read Dawn. Well, okay,

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Speaker 1: so you remember Harry Dean Stanton where Jed and Charlie

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Speaker 1: Sheen come to Jed and who it was Swayzie and

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Speaker 1: Jean wasn't. Yeah, but I can't remember Thomas. Did they

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Speaker 1: all three go? Possibly, but it was definitely Jed and

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Speaker 1: his brother, Um, And they go to see their father,

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Speaker 1: who happens to be Harry Dean Stanton. He's in turn.

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Speaker 1: Notice he's not in a cell. They've put up fencing

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Speaker 1: around the drive in right, and they're projecting propaganda up

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Speaker 1: onto the screen and they're playing like Russian Soviet music. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's legal. Right. When he passes by, I think Arturo's father,

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Speaker 1: who's getting like a German shepherd to the face. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's highly illegal. Can't use the dogs, No, you can't,

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Speaker 1: um the chows. No, no child's, no German shops, no

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Speaker 1: dogs of any kind. Um. When the Russians landed and

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Speaker 1: opened fire on the unarmed high school students, that's highly

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Speaker 1: illegal to I mean, they just flat out shot up

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Speaker 1: that teacher, remember that. Yeah, and that kid too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the kid's hanging out the window. That was one of

386
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Speaker 1: the most disturbing images of my young life. Very impactful. See.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a wolverine. Oh yeah, so did I.

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Speaker 1: And and I guess all little boys like playing war.

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Speaker 1: But I mean I didn't know I was going to

390
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Speaker 1: be a peace nick later on. But at the time, man,

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Speaker 1: I was like, bring it, I'll get a gun, I'll

392
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Speaker 1: go to the woods, pack of football and some canned beans.

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Speaker 1: I wish that, um, you could take the video of

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Speaker 1: your life and edit it, because I would make a

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Speaker 1: montage of all the times I shouted wolverines, like in

396
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Speaker 1: the woods. There's a kid. That's what I would do

397
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Speaker 1: with my time. It was more than once. Um, so

398
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Speaker 1: Red Dawn somewhat on the Soviets took care of the

399
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Speaker 1: civilians to a certain extent. They legally interned others, they

400
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Speaker 1: illegally attack some with dogs. But um, let's say you

401
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Speaker 1: were Darryll's dad, the mayor, and you're riding around with

402
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Speaker 1: the the Cuban commander. Right, Um, what what rights do

403
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Speaker 1: you have? Is just a general civilian who's not been

404
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: deemed a threat? Right, Let's say, could Darryll's dad talk

405
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Speaker 1: to Darryl's mom? Is open communication legal? Well? Yeah, it's

406
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Speaker 1: it's a basic right that you're supposed to have. It

407
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Speaker 1: can be curtailed if they think that there is uh,

408
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Speaker 1: could be a detrimental effect on the correspondence. But even

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Speaker 1: then they allow They law you to tweet basically, yeah,

410
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Speaker 1: you're not really tweet, but they allow you like twenty

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Speaker 1: five words. Right, there's special forms that every occupying force

412
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Speaker 1: will have or should have that um, people can fill

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Speaker 1: out to communicate with one another. Uh if if free

414
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Speaker 1: speech is curtailed, yeah, um, and twenty five of those

415
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Speaker 1: words have to be freely chosen by the person. You

416
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Speaker 1: cannot be removed to another country unless it's for your

417
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Speaker 1: own safety as a civilian, and you can't bring in

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Speaker 1: your people as the occupying force. You can't bring in

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Speaker 1: your civilians to settle that's right now, You're not allowed

420
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Speaker 1: to do that and not allowed to do that. Um.

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Speaker 1: They can force you to work, but they do have

422
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: to pay you, and it can't be work, um like

423
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,919
Speaker 1: for your military, like against your own country. Right, you

424
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: can't make You can't be made to make bombs that

425
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,880
Speaker 1: are gonna be used against your peeps, exactly. And if

426
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: you are working and you're not making bombs, you can't

427
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: be made to physically punish your own countrymen, if you're

428
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: a middle manager forced laborer, and you can force kids

429
00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: to to work too. Really, and Chuck, it's um illegal

430
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: to tattoo civilians for the purposes of identification. Yet another

431
00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:56,000
Speaker 1: one that came out of World War Two. Yeah, boy, Hitler.

432
00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,080
Speaker 1: They just went gaga after that, like with genocide. It

433
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,959
Speaker 1: that had never probably well, no, there was genocide before that,

434
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: but after Hitler they said, no, we can't do this

435
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: genocide thing. So Josh, let's talk about cultural property because

436
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the lesser known aspects of

437
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: these conventions. I didn't know about it until I read

438
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:20,679
Speaker 1: this stuff. It's absolutely protected like your museums, your works

439
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: of art and science. Like, um, remember when Saddam's statue

440
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: was toppled, the American forces couldn't do that. The Iraqi

441
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: people did that. But if the Americans had toppled his

442
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 1: statue and like looted his palace, right because like you said, um,

443
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: But the Hague and Geneva conventions specifically outlawed genocide, which

444
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: is the systematic extermination of a group of people. In

445
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: much the same way, the Hague convinces are like, you

446
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: can't do that to their culture either, their cultural legacy

447
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: and not just statues. Books are included, scientific achievements, works

448
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 1: of art, archaeological areas, and then the buildings that house

449
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 1: these things. Remember we said, like, you can't go hide

450
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 1: out in a museum or library because these are culturally

451
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 1: protected too. Yeah, but it's on the it's on the

452
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: state to um provide identification there that these special symbols,

453
00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: and it's up to the country to to identify these

454
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: places as such so they don't get bombed. So what

455
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 1: happens if you break these rules? Let's say you're just like,

456
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to follow these rules. I

457
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: want to I want to shoot this guy's face in

458
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 1: even though he's wounded already. Yeah, I don't like the

459
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: way he looked, or he's dating my girlfriend. Are those

460
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: awful things you've seen in the in the Vietnam War

461
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 1: movies when one like, uh yeah, when they just go

462
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: nuts and just start doing bad, bad things. So neither

463
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: the Geneva Convention nor the Head Convention specify what kind

464
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: of punishment should be doled out, how offending parties should

465
00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: be charged. UM. They basically say, hey, everybody who's like

466
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,399
Speaker 1: on the side of the law, take these people to the

467
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 1: the international court and then doll out whatever punishment you

468
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: think is necessary. So for example, after Nuremberg, UM, before

469
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 1: actually the Geneva Conventions we ratified UM. The the the

470
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,160
Speaker 1: I guess, France, Great Britain, in the US and Russia

471
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: all formed this international tribunal where they try these Nazi

472
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: war criminals and hanged. I think they executed eleven of them.

473
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 1: So in much the same way we formed tribunals for

474
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 1: UM Yugoslavia, the Balkan Moore, UM for Rwanda. But it's

475
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: up to the country that has been um uh offended,

476
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: it's not offended. It's up to the country that has

477
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: been impacted to to do the legwork to make this happen. Like,

478
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: there's not some big general body it's gonna say, yeah,

479
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: we heard this happen, so we're gonna make sure they

480
00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: get prosecuted. No, but there is a standing body in

481
00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 1: the Hague called the International Criminal Court, and these are

482
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: this This body hears these um war crimes trials. This

483
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 1: is where you go to have a war crimes trial,

484
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: right um. And there's a lot of debate over the

485
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: legitimacy of this body. Some people want this body to

486
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 1: take up more issues than that has Now. Are they

487
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: already up and running? Actually I don't think so, but

488
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: there's a big movement to get it going. Yes, there

489
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: is one that's standing right, the World Court. Basically, do

490
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: you know the other cool things? I got one more?

491
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,480
Speaker 1: You got anything else? Um? I have a little more,

492
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 1: but go ahead, okay. Uh. One thing I found interesting, Joshures,

493
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: is that the these rules don't just apply to the armies,

494
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: but militia and volunteer corps. And we'll go back to

495
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: red down here. Just for the sake of continuity. If

496
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: you have a person in command read don who is that?

497
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 1: Jed Swazy? God rest his soul. Um, if you have

498
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: a representative symbol that can be recognized from a distance,

499
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: if you spray paint wolverine, since you're representatives. So what

500
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: they were doing, they were basically kind of putting themselves

501
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: in the corner. They didn't realize it. Um, if they

502
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: carry weaponry in the open, Yeah, they definitely did that.

503
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 1: Powers Booth showed him how to do that with effectiveness.

504
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 1: He was the pilot, right, Yeah, he was the guy

505
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: that crashed and kind of headed things up for a

506
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: little while, and then they got to follow the laws

507
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 1: and customs of war. So if you meet those criteria

508
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: as a militia. So if we just formed our own

509
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: little pack of how staff forks ruffians, if we were

510
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: attacked and we and you are our leader, and we

511
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: carried open weaponry, and we had our symbol, which would

512
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: be wolverines, clearly then we would be subject to the

513
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 1: same rules as just like we were in the army. Well,

514
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: that fourth one in particular is a little ticklish because

515
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: it basically says, if you follow the rules of war,

516
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: the rules of war apply to you. Yeah, so what

517
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: happens if if you don't And we asked this guy, um,

518
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: who's a professor of international Law's name is Michael Matheson.

519
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: We talked to him actually about from yeah, George Washington University,

520
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: and he said we we asked him, like, what how

521
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: are these followed? Like how are these enforced? Like why

522
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 1: would anybody follow these if you didn't really have to?

523
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: And he basically said, the idea that if you don't

524
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: follow him, the other person doesn't doesn't have to, and

525
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you can be tortured UM or

526
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: you know, you can be attacked by dogs or humiliated, degraded, whatever, UM.

527
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: The slippery slope that forms if you don't follow the

528
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: rules of war UM keep both sides in line actually,

529
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: and that they're these rules are indoctrinated into the military

530
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: rules UM on each side already. So basically, each side

531
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: regulates itself in the hopes that the other side will too.

532
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: You know what they call the golden rule. That's right,

533
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: I'm gonna end up at that all right. If you

534
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: want to learn more about the rules of war and

535
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: see what the cultural property emblem looks like, we know

536
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 1: where you can find it type Rules of War and

537
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 1: the search part how stuff works dot com. That means

538
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: now it's time for the listener mail. Josh, I'm gonna

539
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: call this handpicked by you. Yeah, you picked this one out.

540
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: It's a good one in the Big day and it

541
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 1: was a really good email. Actually it was on my

542
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:25,719
Speaker 1: list too, So this is from Clovis, and Clovis had

543
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 1: some thoughts on the addiction podcasts that were very relevant

544
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: and I think made some great points. Guys in your

545
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: podcast on addiction, I thought you treated the issue fairly

546
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 1: with a couple of exceptions. First of all, Josh, you

547
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: said that a A was radically successful or something to

548
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 1: that effect. The truth is, no one really knows how

549
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: successful it is. It might be successful at helping someone

550
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: obtain sobriety for some amount of time, but it might

551
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: not be any stronger than if a person just cycles

552
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: out of drinking on their own. Also, a a's goal

553
00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: of lifelong abstinence is a set up for failure to

554
00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: some studies showing that only about five percent of people

555
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: remain completely abstinent for the rest of their lives. UH

556
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 1: Clubus goes on to say, it also seems like you

557
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 1: bought into the idea that UH that was cultivated by

558
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: our government that rates use rates are the best measure

559
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: of the harms that drugs and prohibition due to our society.

560
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: So if use rates are up, that's bad. If down,

561
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: if they're down, that's good. Not quite true. Use rates

562
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: are actually a terrible way to measure the success or

563
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: failure of a drug treatment and drug policy. Meaningful data

564
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: would measure the increases and decreases and drug related death, disease, crime,

565
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: and suffering. All of these things can be significantly measured

566
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: and in some cases even more accurately accurately than self

567
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 1: reported use rates. Use rates are especially useful to politicians

568
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: who use this quote unquote evidence to say use rates

569
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: are down, we're winning. You should increase our budget to

570
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: help keep this fight. Or use rates are down, we're losing,

571
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: so you need to increase our budget to put us

572
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 1: to stamp this thing out. So either way, they're trying

573
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: to get more money. Uh. And I guess the point

574
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: about addiction. That's the point about addiction and treatment. Our

575
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: society has defined both way too rigidly. Addiction is really

576
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: drug use plus problems. What do we do for those

577
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: people who can't use drugs without causing problems the addicts?

578
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: We should give them treatment? And treatment can be anything

579
00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: that works for them. Can be a a can be

580
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:25,600
Speaker 1: heroin assisted treatment, it can be knitting. But if it

581
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: lessens the death, disease, crime, and suffering associated with the

582
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 1: drug use, then it should be considered a successful treatment.

583
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: Putting them in prison cells is about the worst thing

584
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 1: we can do for them. With all respect, Clovis, Thanks

585
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: for that, Clovis, for one of the better emails we've

586
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: ever received. I would say, yeah, it was a good one. Uh.

587
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: If you have something you'd like to point out to

588
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: Chuck and I'm that we've maybe erroneously bought into something

589
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 1: and you want to tell us how it is, we

590
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: always love that, Wrap it up and send it to

591
00:33:54,920 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 1: stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Yeah. For

592
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how

593
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast,

594
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 1: click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner

595
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: of our homepage. The How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived.

596
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: Download it today on iTunes. Brought to you by the

597
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you