1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,240 Speaker 1: Missing in Arizona contains graphic depictions of violence and may 2 00:00:03,279 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: not be suitable for all listeners. When I investigate these cases, 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: my first task is to earn the trust of victims, 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: loved ones, and law enforcement. I have to prove that 5 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: I'm not some bloodsucking parasite, just here for a few 6 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: days to extract trauma, microwave it and pop out watery 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: entertainment trash. So many people hate the media, and I 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: get it. I've been on both sides, interviewer interviewee. I've 9 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,040 Speaker 1: seen media repeatedly get things wrong, and when you read, 10 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 1: or watch or hear something false reported as fact, of course, 11 00:00:34,840 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: you're going to lose trust. Many years ago, I quit 12 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:40,280 Speaker 1: grad school and gave up on the idea of a 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: full time journalism career. I left my apartment in New 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: York and moved to a shack in Oregon. My journey 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: back is bizarre, a ten year odyssey, culminating in season 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: one Missing in Alaska. Now I'm free. Here's what I see. 17 00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: I see a news industry self immolating at the altar 18 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: of objectivity, leach the value by private equity and big 19 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: tech captive to insincere bias accusations as its favorability sinks 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: into the sewer alongside Pennywise, who at this point might 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: be more trusted. I see media busses preach free speech 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,920 Speaker 1: than muscle employees with opinions, or worse, hire employees who 23 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: have none, vanilla automaton scribes. I see a bipolar political media, 24 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: either sycophantic or unnecessarily pugilistic. I see hack profiteers in 25 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: charge of the entertainment industry, doltish gatekeepers breaking the bones 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: of narrative innovation. I see entertainment companies put up pride 27 00:01:35,800 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: flags while funding demagogues. I also see thousands of local 28 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: and regional reporters working hard for little pay because they 29 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 1: care about their communities. I hope you see them too. 30 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: In the true crime industry, I see predatory sponges who 31 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: soak up other people's labor and squeeze out uncredited derivative 32 00:01:55,960 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: works for clout and cash. In the process. They have 33 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: I suppose created a new genre half true crime. Take 34 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: Crime Junkie, one of the most popular shows in the world, 35 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: A show that faced repeated allegations of plagiarism, A show 36 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: that won Best Crime Podcast at this year's iHeart Podcast Awards. 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: In twenty eighteen, Crime Junkie did an episode on Robert Fisher. 38 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: Here's some of what they said. 39 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 2: Robert Fisher was off work on April ninth, two thousand 40 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 2: and one. False and spent the day installing attic insulation 41 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: false and got an oil change false. That evening, he 42 00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: took his daughter Brittany to a church event. 43 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: False. 44 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: Police suspect he used gasoline to help burn down his house. 45 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: False. 46 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 2: It took hours for the house to burn down. 47 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:41,519 Speaker 1: False. 48 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 2: He frequented strip clubs. 49 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: False. 50 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: He had a black lab named Blue false. Who shows 51 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: up in home videos false. Mary's forerunner was wiped clean. 52 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: False. 53 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: There wasn't a single fingerprint, hair, or fiber on or 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 2: in it. 55 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 1: False. 56 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: Police found footprints leading from the suv to a case. 57 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: False. 58 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: Spelunkers searched the cave with robot cameras. 59 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: False. I understand that I have the luxury of spending 60 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: years on a single story. I find details others miss 61 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: in this case, I don't blame Arizona reporters, the police, 62 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: or the FBI for making mistakes. They worked hard in 63 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and one, and they're too busy wrangling today's chaos. 64 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: To focus full time on the past. On the other hand, 65 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 1: I have no problem calling out entertainers who can't even 66 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: get basic facts correct but go on to fame and 67 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: fortune by freeloading off actual journalists. They are toxic copy 68 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: and pasters who perpetuate myths and pollute case canon. They 69 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: do tangible harm, and they waste your time. You can't 70 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: solve mysteries with fake clues. For example, the footprints allegedly 71 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: found leading from Mary's suv to a cave fascinating if true, 72 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 1: but it's not. Why should you care? Well? If I 73 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: say police found footprints from the suv to a cave, 74 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: but no return tracks, you might think understandably that Robert 75 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: died by suicide in the cave. His body must be 76 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: in there somewhere. But if I say no, that's false, 77 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: your mind opens up. Maybe he's alive, and maybe you'll 78 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: help us look for him. The small stuff matters. Details matter. 79 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: From iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three. I'm John Walzac and 80 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: this is Missing in Arizona, the story of a man 81 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: who disappeared after allegedly killing his wife and kids, blowing 82 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: up their suburban home and escaping into the wilderness. Twenty 83 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,799 Speaker 1: three years later, I'm hunting Robert Fisher, and I need 84 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: your help. The early confused days of this case gave 85 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 1: birth to myths that persist today, including the man in 86 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: the woods and the footprints the man in the wood. 87 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 3: We received information from a witness, as citizen who had 88 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 3: observed what he thought to be the vehicle of mister 89 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 3: Fisher and the dog of mister Fisher, and in fact 90 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,200 Speaker 3: saw a person that he thought was mister Fisher. 91 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: This statement about a mystery man in the woods is incorrect. 92 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,200 Speaker 1: It's based on erroneous early reports. Right now, all indications 93 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 1: are that he is alive. 94 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 3: We know he was seen yesterday morning at eleven by 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 3: the witness, the original witness, and that he's on the move. 96 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: Notice how a vague sighting got more specific. We know 97 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: the witness saw Fisher yesterday at eleven am. That's false, Greg, 98 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: the camper who found the suv never saw anyone in 99 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: the woods. Meanwhile, the Arizona Republic reported that pilots with 100 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: the state Department of Public Safety or DPS, also saw 101 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: the man in the woods near a cave. Quote a 102 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: man was spotted on the ground between the truck and 103 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: the cave. He appeared aware that the police helicopter was overhead. 104 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: It was unclear whether the man was armed or how 105 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: long he had been in the area. This is false. 106 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: The pilots didn't see anyone. My goal here is not 107 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: to humiliate law enforcement. In fact, debunking this myth makes 108 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: them look better. Early on, they were heavily criticized for 109 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: flying over the suv before reaching it on the ground, 110 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: possibly alerting Fisher that they found him, giving him time 111 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: to run. But since the man in the woods is 112 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: myth not fact, this is moot. I'm also not trying 113 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 1: to slam the Arizona Republic. Reporters covering breaking news do 114 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 1: their best to determine which rumors are true. Sometimes they 115 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: make mistakes. It's okay to admit that to fix it. 116 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: The problem is that the original false version often lives 117 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 1: on no matter what. This is also true of the footprints. 118 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 4: The grid search covered approximately five hundred yards and a 119 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 4: one mile square trying to locate any footprint. 120 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 1: Everyone scans dirt and snow looking for tracks. 121 00:06:55,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 5: In fact, a helicopter search of the area spotted footprints 122 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 5: where Fisher's current dog were found on Friday. 123 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 4: A track that has been found leaving the area where 124 00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 4: the truck was. 125 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: Wait, they did find footprints, Yes, they. 126 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 4: Did, a mile or so south of the truck. 127 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: A mile from the suv, not leading from the suv 128 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: to a cave. 129 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 4: Going down into the reservation area. The tracks went down, 130 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 4: but there was no tracks coming back out. 131 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: The size of their boot trim size thirteen. 132 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 4: I don't know if it's him. 133 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 6: It's not something about his physical appearance that nobody ever mentions, 134 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 6: as he had small feet. 135 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: John Roden, a Fisher family friend, he had. 136 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,559 Speaker 6: Like size eight feet unusual. Really, Yeah, and you cannot 137 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,000 Speaker 6: change your feet size that much. 138 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: Mary Beth Rodin, John's wife, how sure are you that 139 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: it was size eight? 140 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 7: Is that a guess? 141 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 6: I'm pretty sure. If it wasn't size eight, it was 142 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 6: size nine, which is still small. 143 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 7: It was not size thirteen. 144 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 6: No, it was not even size little bitty feet. 145 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 7: When they found the forerunner, they found a set of 146 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 7: size thirteen prints leading away from it. 147 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 6: Those were not his feet. 148 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 7: And let's say, I have a long list of questions, 149 00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 7: and this was one that I just didn't think anybody 150 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 7: would remember his shoe size. 151 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 6: Because it was weird. Yeah, we won hunting. We shared 152 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 6: a tent with him as like, wow, you got small feet. 153 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: So the Rodents say Robert wore an eight to nine shoe. 154 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: In addition, the sneakers police found in his worklocker were 155 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: a nine point five. Neither is even close to at thirteen. 156 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: In the end, myth, police found Robert Fisher's footprints leading 157 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: from Mary's fore runner to a cave. Verdict. Police did 158 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: find prince size thirteen a mile away, likely left by 159 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: someone scavenging for elk antlers. Myth. The Arizona DPS pilots 160 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: and Greg the camper saw the man in the woods, 161 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 1: probably Robert Fisher. Verdict false. A few weeks after the 162 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: search ends, HeLa County Detective Brian Hay boards a helicopter 163 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:53,920 Speaker 1: in Payson. 164 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 5: And then we flew at nighttime over the entire area 165 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 5: looking for campfires. 166 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,280 Speaker 1: Eyes, you're in a helicopter flying under a blanket of stars, 167 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,640 Speaker 1: trying to spot flickering dots in a vast obsidian forest. 168 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 5: Nights up there can be rather cool. Maybe he would 169 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 5: have a campfire that we could pinpoint and with GPS 170 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 5: located five to seven them. And then we followed up 171 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,080 Speaker 5: on foot and patrol vehicles. What area did you search 172 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 5: virtually all the woods within three or four miles five miles. 173 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: Of the fore runner, and none of those leads spand 174 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: out no On May eleventh, two thousand and one, police 175 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: finally track down Greg, the camper who located Mary's four 176 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: runner twenty two days earlier. Greg left Arizona before they 177 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,839 Speaker 1: can meet him in person, so they interview him by 178 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,040 Speaker 1: phone at his brother's house in Oregon. They find him 179 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,720 Speaker 1: highly suspicious. Why did he flee so quickly? Why did 180 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: he disappear for weeks? Did he help Robert escape? Four 181 00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,439 Speaker 1: days later, they get copies of security tapes from cameras 182 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: at the gas station where Greg used a payphone to 183 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: call his friends, who in turn called the police. There's 184 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: no sign of Greg or Robert on the tapes. May 185 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: twenty eighth, Memorial Day, A Blazing Summer begins. June twenty third, 186 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 1: twenty eight year old Honey Hanjor joins a flight simulator 187 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: club in Phoenix. Soon he'll pilot a plane into the Pentagon. 188 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: July tenth, a Phoenix FBI agent pens a memo warning 189 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: of the possibility of a coordinated effort by Osama bin 190 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: Laden to send students to the US to attend civil 191 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: aviation schools. July nineteenth, the Maricopa County Attorney's Office releases 192 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: an indictment charging Robert Fisher with murder and arson. The 193 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 1: longer he evades authorities, the more he melts into state lore, 194 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: a homicidal phantom wandering the wilderness alongside the likes of 195 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: the Muggy On Monster, Arizona's Bigfoot. 196 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,720 Speaker 8: His suv may have been found, but triple murder suspect 197 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 8: Robert Fisher has never been located. With that in mind, 198 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 8: he County authorities are planning a second all out man 199 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 8: hunt for Fisher in hopes of finding him dead or alive. 200 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 8: Robert Fisher is the primary suspect and the murder of 201 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 8: his wife and two children, whose bodies were found in 202 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 8: their burning Scottsdale home last April. Scottsdale police say the 203 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 8: home was rigged to explode in order to hide the homicides. 204 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,760 Speaker 8: Even though Fisher hasn't been seen since the incident, Scottsdale 205 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 8: police believe he is alive and hiding somewhere. 206 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 9: You know, we have to base our investigations on fact, 207 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 9: and we have no evidence to show that Rappert Fisher 208 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 9: is dead. 209 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 8: He may or may not be living somewhere in that area. 210 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 5: Nothing would please us more than to find the body. 211 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 8: The search is scheduled for August and is being billed 212 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 8: as a quote training exercise, but it will, no doubt 213 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,439 Speaker 8: focus on the numerous caves found in the area where 214 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 8: Fisher's SUV was discovered. 215 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: But the thirch never takes place. The HeLa County Sheriff 216 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: cancels it, saying, quote, we've turned up no new leads. 217 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: We're satisfied that the chances he's up there are slim 218 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: to none. August eleventh, nearly seven million people watch America's 219 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 1: Most Wanted, which features a four minute segment on Fisher. 220 00:12:13,240 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: It generates fifty two new leads. August eighteenth, five forty 221 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,680 Speaker 1: nine PM, a man calls the TV tip line from 222 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: Pietro's Italian restaurant in Chester, Virginia, just south of Richmond. 223 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 1: This is Robert Fisher. He says, you'll never catch me. 224 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: I'm glad I killed the bitch. The call is brief, 225 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: it isn't recorded. Scott Steel Detective John Kirkham tells the 226 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: media quote, some things were said in the call that 227 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: led us to believe it was Robert Fisher. Police in 228 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: Virginia find no proof the caller was actually Fisher. For 229 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: a time, they stake out the restaurant to no avail. 230 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: September tenth, two thousand and one, the Arizona Republic runs 231 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: a quick update quote officials now concede he meaning Fisher 232 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: may be dead. Nine to eleven. We just had a. 233 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:04,199 Speaker 10: Plane crash and grew up before all the World. 234 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 5: Trade sent to transmit a second alarm. 235 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 10: And starving little katy companies into the area. 236 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:11,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, Hi, hey, tho, she fell a baller from the 237 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: two to one. 238 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 10: Yeah, you guys should call them Anhattan dispatch and let 239 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:17,320 Speaker 10: him know. I had never seen so much smoke coming 240 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 10: through a film as I speak in the World Trades 241 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 10: and up by the water upon it. It's unbelievable. 242 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 3: They have the art on the news. 243 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: Stations, but they only gave a second larn there. 244 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 10: It's like to set the long spee on it. They 245 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 10: should go to a fifth instantly with the he goes 246 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 10: to the side of the building. It looks like the 247 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 10: numerous flaws exploded out. It's it's insane right now as 248 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 10: somebody answer to every available ablist that they could possibly 249 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 10: get over there, This is going to be the event 250 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 10: of the century. 251 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: Only a month after America's Most Wanted elevates Fisher to 252 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: national prominence, nine to eleven wipes him away. He falls 253 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: into a fugitive sweet spot. The post nine to eleven, 254 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: pre social media, pre smartphone, don'nut whole, federal resources and 255 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,959 Speaker 1: public attention turned to terrorism. On October twenty fifth, as 256 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: the US bombs the Taliban in Afghanistan, Detective Kirkham tells 257 00:14:09,880 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: the Arizona Republic that Fisher is likely alive. Quote. I 258 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: don't believe that he's up in the woods. I don't 259 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: believe that he committed suicide. He was not intent on 260 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: taking his own life. His intent was to take care 261 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 1: of his problem and move on with his life. No remorse, 262 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: no regret. He's probably living in another state and working 263 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: at some menial job. I think that we'll probably find him. 264 00:14:32,640 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: It may be tomorrow, it may be years down the road. 265 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: It depends on us finding the mistake he made that 266 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 1: we haven't picked up on yet, or on him making 267 00:14:41,320 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: a mistake. In February two thousand and two, the FBI 268 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: joins the case. 269 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 9: I was the first agent assigned. 270 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,640 Speaker 1: Robert Caldwell Scott Sell came to. 271 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 9: The FBI to help find Inzana Probo cause to believe 272 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 9: he fled the state. So therefore the FBI now has 273 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 9: jurisdiction to assist them. If a fugitive fled the state, 274 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 9: it's called unwulf of flight to void prosecution. So they 275 00:15:27,000 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 9: came to us, sat down with their detectives. We went 276 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 9: through everything, developed a ton of leads, came up with 277 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 9: some investigative strategies, and went to work. 278 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: Caldwell starts digging into Fisher's past, including his childhood. 279 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 9: Nothing came up that was ever like he was a 280 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 9: trouble kid, or did drugs. 281 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 7: Or killed animals. 282 00:15:45,080 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 6: No, nothing at all. 283 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: Caldwell immediately knows that the case is cooler than cool. 284 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: It's ice cold. Publicity is key. On April fourth, two 285 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: thousand and two days before the first anniversary of the murders, 286 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 1: he and Detective Kirkham hosts the one hour public chat 287 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: on FBI dot gov. Two months later, the bureau deploys 288 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: its most valuable pr weapon. 289 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 11: Fisher is still very much a priority with the FBI. 290 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 9: He's on the ten most wanted list, right along with 291 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 9: the likes of Osama bin Laden, Eric Rudolph. 292 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 4: There is Robert William Fisher. 293 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: At the time, Eric Rudolph, the Olympic Park bomber, is 294 00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: hiding in the forested mountains of North Carolina. Bin Laden 295 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: is on the run in Afghanistan or Pakistan. His last 296 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 1: known location was the Tora Bora Cave complex. Rudolph is 297 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: arrested in two thousand and three. Bin Laden dies in 298 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,760 Speaker 1: twenty eleven. Only Fisher remains free. 299 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 8: Forty two year old Robert Fisher is a fugitive. He 300 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 8: is a phantom. He is a hunting figure in the 301 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 8: history of Arizona. 302 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: On August seventh, two thousand and two, the Arizona Republic 303 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: runs a poll on its website, what do you think 304 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: happened to Robert Fisher escaped and is living in the US? 305 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: Eighty percent himself after the murders, nine percent still in Arizona, 306 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: seven percent died of exposure while on the run shortly 307 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 1: after the murders four percent. The next few years, Speed 308 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: by the US invades Iraq, Facebook launches, Hurricane Katrina hits 309 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: New Orleans, Kanye the Killers, and Taylor Swift break into 310 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: pop culture. Nothing much happens with the Fisher case. In 311 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: April two thousand and six. At the five year mark, 312 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: Detective Kirkham tells the Republic quote, no one believes he's 313 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 1: dead in a cave. We would have found some trace 314 00:17:33,359 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: of his body by now. Three months later, Kirkham, only 315 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 1: forty seven, dies of a stroke. Summer two thousand and six, 316 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: multiple serial killers stalk the Phoenix Metro, including the Baseline 317 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 1: Killer and the serial shooter. 318 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 9: I was heavily involved in that investigation. 319 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 1: Scottsdale Lieutenant Hugh Lockerbye. 320 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 12: These guys running around Phoenix to shooting at people and 321 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 12: killing them. 322 00:17:57,160 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: The serial shooter, not to be confused with the Phoenix 323 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: Ceial Street shooter, the Phoenix Freeway shooter, or the Scottsdale 324 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: spree shooter different cases. Ends up being two men meth 325 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: fueld roommates who kill eight people, including one in Scottsdale. 326 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 1: Police arrest them on August third, two thousand and six. 327 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: A month later, they identify and arrest the Baseline killer 328 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 1: with the help of Stephen Pitt, a forensic psychiatrist, who 329 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: himself is murdered in twenty eighteen by the Scottsdale spree shooter. 330 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to give you the wrong idea Despite 331 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: a few high profile crimes, Scottsdale is for the most part, 332 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 1: incredibly safe. In twenty twenty three, with a population of 333 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:39,400 Speaker 1: two hundred and forty five thousand, it had one homicide. 334 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 12: It's very much a metropolitan area, just a suburb of Phoenix. 335 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,159 Speaker 4: Here we are in Phoenix, Arizona. 336 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, excuse me, Scott Steel, Arizona. 337 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 5: Pardon me. 338 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,880 Speaker 1: For a while, the Fisher case is in limbo. Police 339 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: are busy chasing serial killers. 340 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 12: But by two thousand and seven, I take it over 341 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 12: and I'd meet Bob call Immerse myself talking to the family. 342 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: Members, including Mary's dad, Bill Cooper. Two years later, in 343 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: December two thousand and nine, Bill dies. April twenty third, 344 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: twenty eleven, the Arizona Republic headline FBI manhans still on 345 00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: for Robert Fisher, suspect and murders in one likely is alive. 346 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: Agent Caldwell says, quote, all our evidence has been that 347 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: he's the kind of guy who wouldn't go kill himself. 348 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: He took a lot of belongings from the home, clothing, guns, 349 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: like he was moving himself out. None of that stuff 350 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: was found in the vehicle. He's out there hunting fishing, 351 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,199 Speaker 1: chewing tobacco with a sore back. In the lobby of 352 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: the FBI's Phoenix office, a wanted poster of Fisher hangs 353 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: directly above Osama bin Laden. Nine days later, Navy seals 354 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:54,840 Speaker 1: kill bin Laden in Pakistan. In April twenty twelve, the 355 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,800 Speaker 1: Pacin Roundup reports that the FBI quote believes Fisher may 356 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: be living in the Blue Ridge Reservoir area as a hermit, 357 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: or squatting in a trailer cabin or an old home 358 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,439 Speaker 1: in the woods. Fisher walks with an exaggerated upright walk, 359 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: has a bad back, probably has long hair, and is 360 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: homeless looking. In twenty fourteen, Hugh Lockerbie, then a detective, 361 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: tells the Arizona Republic Fisher is likely living somewhere out 362 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: west New Mexico, Wyoming, Montana, Arizona, even Canada, quote anywhere 363 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,040 Speaker 1: where he can hunt fish keep a low profile. In 364 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, at the fifteen year mark, the FBI releases 365 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,919 Speaker 1: ads progressed images of Fisher. There's no reason to believe 366 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,080 Speaker 1: he's dead, they say. Bob Caldwell later retires, but he 367 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 1: remains deeply invested in this case and retains a strong 368 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: personal animosity towards Fisher. 369 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,919 Speaker 9: He thinks he's a real man's man when he's not. 370 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 9: He's not a ladies man. He's kind of a failure 371 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 9: of life. He's a bully to women. I don't think 372 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,720 Speaker 9: he's got the guts to come forward. He's a piece 373 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 9: of shit. If he is alive, he needs to be 374 00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 9: brought to justice. And I don't care if there's somebody 375 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 9: else out there that's like, well, he's good to me. 376 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 12: Whatever. 377 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 9: No, there's a bigger picture here now. He's going to 378 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:07,919 Speaker 9: get his justice one day. It's going to be up 379 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 9: there or down there, whichever, but it's going to. 380 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 6: Happen one day. 381 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 9: But he needs to get his justice here first. 382 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: In Scottsdale, Hugh Lockerby is promoted from detective to lieutenant. 383 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 1: He began his career as a patrol officer whose beat 384 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: included the Fisher House. In fact, he was working the 385 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: night of the murders. 386 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 12: I wonder how close I was to Fisher, Like I 387 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 12: wish I could retrace my steps. How close did I 388 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 12: drive by his house? How close did I drive by 389 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 12: the bank? 390 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:34,640 Speaker 6: Did I pass him? 391 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 12: When he was leaving town? 392 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: On November third, twenty twenty one, the FBI removes Fisher 393 00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: from its ten most Wanted list. According to the Associated Press, 394 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: he's only the eleventh person since nineteen fifty removed before apprehension, death, 395 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: or dismissal of charges, and that more or less brings 396 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: us to today. The current investigators are Scott Steel, Detective 397 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: John Heinzelman, an FBI special agent. Taylor Hannah tell me 398 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: the FBI's official position on whether or not Robert Fisher 399 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 1: is a lot or dead. 400 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 13: There is no official position. My background is in science. 401 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 13: Previous to this, I was working on my PhD in biology, 402 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 13: so I approach this case very scientifically. There are one 403 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 13: hundred thousand pet theories hypotheses out there of what happened 404 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 13: to Fisher, and so I really wanted to approach this 405 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 13: case with none of those right. I wanted to re 406 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 13: examine all the facts and the actual evidence and see 407 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 13: what we could do with that. What I did not 408 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 13: want to do is come on and create any theories 409 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 13: or hypotheses based on just my assumptions. So I would 410 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 13: say the Bureau has no stance. I think we are 411 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 13: open to the fact that he could be dead or alive, 412 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 13: and that obviously we are going to try to find 413 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 13: him either way. 414 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 14: So Fisher was on the ten most Wanted list from 415 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 14: twenty two to twenty twenty one. Can you talk about 416 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 14: the criteria for how somebody gets included on the list 417 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 14: and why he was removed? 418 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:50,439 Speaker 6: Sure? 419 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,080 Speaker 13: So the criteria typically is just how beneficial is it 420 00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 13: going to be to that case. There are a lot 421 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,199 Speaker 13: of really bad people out there. There are a lot 422 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 13: of people that have done crime is very similar to 423 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 13: Robert Fisher, right it in America, sadly, and not all 424 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 13: of them were on the Top ten list. He was 425 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 13: initially added to get his picture out there, to get 426 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 13: the story out there and hope someone would see him. 427 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 13: After twenty years, all those tips didn't lead to the 428 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 13: resolution of his case yet or to finding him. So 429 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 13: opposed to taking up one of those spots that could 430 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 13: be used for another case, That's why we decided to 431 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:20,280 Speaker 13: take him off the Top ten. 432 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: Agent Hannah and Detective Heinzelmann still get leads almost every week. 433 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 12: Maybe there's somebody out there that knows him or helped 434 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 12: him along the way. Even twenty years ago. This says, well, 435 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 12: he called me and I gave him a ride or 436 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 12: I picked him up where the forerunner was, and I 437 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 12: drove him to flag Staff or whatever it is. But 438 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 12: I always thought that law enforcement was going to figure 439 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,119 Speaker 12: that out, they were going to catch him, so I 440 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 12: didn't want to come forward. And now I'm finally saying, Okay, 441 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 12: I'm older, I'm going to come forward. 442 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: I'm going to talk investigators. Ask me to emphasize this point. 443 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: If you know something, please speak up. If you had 444 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: an affair with Robert Fisher, if you helped him escape, 445 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: if you know him today and you're worried about legal culpability, 446 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: you're not the target Fisher is. Please come forward to 447 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: law enforcement or to me. In the meantime, Scottsdale and 448 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: the FBI are always looking for ways to develop new leads. 449 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 13: For example, we geographically cluster relatives at one point to 450 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 13: see if there were any hot spots, and there was 451 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 13: one identified. There was a timeframe where people unrelated reporting 452 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 13: someone that matched his description in a certain area, and 453 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:28,200 Speaker 13: that was one that really got our attention. We sent 454 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 13: agents is prior to me coming to the case to 455 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 13: interview all those people and obviously to search. This was 456 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 13: a fisherman that was transient through that area. So it's 457 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 13: still hard. But again you find Fisher. 458 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:43,919 Speaker 6: You just call that number right there. I will make 459 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 6: sure that. 460 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:45,960 Speaker 8: You know. 461 00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 13: I actually do not remember, just because I've gone through 462 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,479 Speaker 13: so many I just remember it's town or all fishermen, 463 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 13: So they knew all the people coming and going, and 464 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 13: this was a new individual that came through town that 465 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 13: resembled Robert Fisher, and there were multiple reports seemingly unrelated. 466 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 13: It was in the US. 467 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: As far as physical evidence, what might exist today and 468 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: what could it tell us, investigators don't know for sure 469 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,160 Speaker 1: what Fisher took with him and what burned in the fire. 470 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: None of his belongings were ever located. They think he 471 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: took a thirty eight Revolver, camping supplies, clothing. 472 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 13: And a bike that he did use pretty frequently was missing, 473 00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 13: and we would have found remants. 474 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 5: Of the bike. 475 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:25,920 Speaker 1: Up next, that. 476 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 11: Is Robert Fisher's mountain bike that he gave me. 477 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,200 Speaker 1: If you like this show, please download our first two seasons, 478 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,280 Speaker 1: Missing in Alaska and Missing on nine to eleven. For updates, 479 00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: visit meon thirty three dot com or follow me on 480 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: Twitter at John waalzac j O n Wa l Czak. 481 00:25:51,160 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening. Jim roden knew the entire Fisher family. 482 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: He was Robert's friend and Britney's youth pastor. His brother 483 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: John and sister in law Mary Beth are the couple 484 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: you heard earlier who remembered Robert's two size Jim, John 485 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,359 Speaker 1: and Robert went hunting together. They also went camping with 486 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,600 Speaker 1: their wives and kids. Brittany was even at Jim's house 487 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,640 Speaker 1: two days before the murders for a sleepover with friends, 488 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: supervised by Jim's wife. So I was surprised to hear 489 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: that Scott. 490 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 11: Steel Peede never interviewed me, real never interviewed me, And 491 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 11: that was the weirdest thing. It's like I knew his 492 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 11: daughter I spoke at the memorial. Did no never interviewed me, 493 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 11: never been interviewed. 494 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: Jim met Robert in the nineties. At the time, many 495 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: people called him Bob. What did Jim call him? 496 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 11: Not Bob, It's Robert. I toy with people's names just 497 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 11: to poke m around. So I'm Pastor Cupcake, and my 498 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 11: wife after this whole thing went down, she was half 499 00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 11: convinced that we were going to hear him outside our 500 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 11: window whispering a pastor Cupcake, like he'd be on the 501 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 11: lamb and maybe come to our house. And say pastor cupcake. 502 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 11: So there was that kind of silly relationship. 503 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 6: Eating all the. 504 00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 11: Cupcakes that Mary made and him calling me pastor cupcake. 505 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 11: He got a kick out of that. Lying in a 506 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 11: tent and I'm a little bit of a youngest child 507 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 11: shock jockey, and I think I was mimicking a gang 508 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 11: banger hunting. We're going to sleep and I'm just talking 509 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 11: inner city talk without the F bomb word. 510 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 12: But he was rolling. 511 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 11: He just thought gangstas going hunting, and I had him 512 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 11: rolling it because he loved that good old boy Americana military, 513 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 11: redneck outdoorsman Copenhagen, tobacco, fishing, cabellas you got it pass 514 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 11: pro shop though it wasn't there at the time. You know, 515 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 11: had his own little fishing boat and pickup truck, and 516 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 11: he was a jim rat and he would ride that 517 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 11: mountain bike. 518 00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: The missing bike, every day. 519 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 11: He was putting miles on that mountain bike. I happened 520 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:02,679 Speaker 11: to own that mountain bike about a year before this 521 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 11: whole thing went down. He gave me that mountain bike 522 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 11: as a gift, which was I was stunned. But I 523 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 11: had a mountain bike stolen my first year marriage. It 524 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 11: was a brand new Specialized stump jumper calm left it 525 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 11: behind at my parents' house. They were broken into, got 526 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 11: a phone call, bike's gone. I used the insurance money 527 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,239 Speaker 11: to pay my seminary bill. Robert knew that story, and 528 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 11: this is probably five years later. He invited me over 529 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 11: to the house one night and he said, hey, I. 530 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 6: Want to give you something. 531 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 11: I want to give you this, and I'm like, whoa. 532 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 11: I remember when he bought that bike and just going, oh, 533 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 11: that is a nice mountain bike. Never said anything to him, 534 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,320 Speaker 11: but he knew the story me losing my mountain bike, 535 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 11: and so he gave me that bike. And that was 536 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 11: probably a year or a year and. 537 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: A half before the murders, somewhere. 538 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 11: Around nineteen ninety nine. At the time, it was just like, 539 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 11: no way, I feel really loved by this guy. I've 540 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 11: invested in his life spiritually and is encouraging him in 541 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 11: the ways of the Lord in his marriage. And this 542 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 11: seemed to be him just saying, hey, thanks, peace, I. 543 00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: Do we go to his garage. 544 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 11: That is that is Robert Fisher's mountain bike that he 545 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 11: gave me some pretty good shape, yeah, aluminum. That was 546 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 11: the top of the line Specialized mountain bike, and that 547 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 11: was probably a twenty eight hundred dollars. 548 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 1: Bike, about fifty four hundred dollars today. So this is 549 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: the bike that the FBI thinks is missing. 550 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,560 Speaker 11: Probably, but he gave it to me a year before 551 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 11: he did this thing. 552 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 14: You still write it. 553 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, we head back inside and speak of salvation. Can 554 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: Robert Fisher be redeemed in the eyes of his God? 555 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:35,040 Speaker 11: Absolutely, eternally forgiven and redeemed absolutely? That is the scriptures, 556 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,360 Speaker 11: and that is the Jesus that we proclaim. As far 557 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 11: as the debt to society, that's a different set of ethics. 558 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 11: It's the Ted Bundy story. Ted Bundy claims to have 559 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 11: fully confessed, repented with remorse, and received Jesus as personal 560 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 11: Lord and savior. But the next day he's going to 561 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 11: the electric chair. And I'm fine with that set of ethics. 562 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,200 Speaker 11: Isaiah fifty three. Surely he has borne our griefs and 563 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 11: the pain that we've taken on from other people sinning 564 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,800 Speaker 11: against us, but also our personal expressions of sin and sinfulness. 565 00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 11: He carried that to the cross as God incarnate. And 566 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 11: so if there's not hope for a murderer, there's not 567 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,320 Speaker 11: hope for anyone. You can be forgiven eternally, but there 568 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 11: will be consequences. In the best story is that you go, 569 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 11: man up, turn yourself in, let the judges sort that out. 570 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 11: Cast your soul upon the grace of God. Let him 571 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 11: sort out your soul and your crimes. And the Lord 572 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 11: is merciful and forgiving for the repentant soul. 573 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 14: Do you feel like it's possible for him to be 574 00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 14: redeemed if he lives an alternative life and never comes 575 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 14: forth and. 576 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 11: Pay no, no, Because that's a secret. Nothing ever gets better. 577 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 11: Festering in the darkness. That's evidence of an unrepentant heart. 578 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 11: A repentant heart pulls it out into the light. They 579 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 11: want to live before God and man like, even if 580 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,560 Speaker 11: they've got to pay the price. I did this, I'll repay. 581 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 11: What does restitution look like? I can't make restitution, but 582 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 11: I'm going to have to be taken out, so capital 583 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 11: punishment is You. 584 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 14: Know, if he surface today, would you be willing to 585 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 14: meet with and council? 586 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 11: One hundred percent? 587 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 12: I've known that, and I go. 588 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 11: I'd visit him. I'd visit pretty much anyone in prison. Absolutely. 589 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 14: If he's out there, will you speak to him spiritually 590 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 14: about where he stands now and what he has to 591 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 14: do to find reduction. 592 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 11: The simple path forward is First John one nine. If 593 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 11: we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to 594 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 11: forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 595 00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 11: When we bring ourselves out into the light and we confess, 596 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 11: and which means say the same thing about it that 597 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 11: God says about it. Almost leg at oh is the Greek. 598 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 11: Just say, admit it. It's sin, it's wrong, it's detestable. 599 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 11: It's an infinite, eternal violation of God's goodness and holiness. 600 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 11: And I stand condemned. No matter what the law the 601 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 11: courts do to you. To find forgiveness before a righteous 602 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 11: and loving judge running in this lifetime, that gets you nothing, 603 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 11: just slight delay in judgment day which relative to each 604 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 11: it's like that's a spit in the ocean. So come 605 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 11: clean before it's too late. Confess your sin, Come out 606 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,280 Speaker 11: into the light, face up to what you did. Find 607 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 11: redemption before the Lord. I would certainly visit him, say, man, 608 00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,719 Speaker 11: tell me all about it. I don't hate you as 609 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 11: an image bearer. We've all done terrible things. This is extreme, 610 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 11: but in terms of needing a redeemer, a savior. We're 611 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 11: on eagle ground before the foot of. 612 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,960 Speaker 1: The cross, Jim, and I know this message isn't for everyone. 613 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: It's for an audience of one. Robert. If you're listening, 614 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: if you believe in God, if you believe in Hell, 615 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: if you don't want to go to Hell. 616 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,280 Speaker 11: Come forward, come into the light. 617 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: Next time, I'm missing in Arizona. 618 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 7: It's eleven fifty one am on a Tuesday, and we're 619 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 7: looking for some mysterious shock in the woods in Arizona. 620 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: You can reach us by phone at one eight three 621 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:57,040 Speaker 1: three new tips. That's one eight three three six ' 622 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: three nine eight four seven seven, by email at tips 623 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: at iHeartMedia dot com, tip s at iHeartMedia dot com, 624 00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: online at neon thirty three dot com, or on Twitter 625 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: at John Wallzac, j O, n W A. L. Czak. 626 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: Paul Duckan is our executive producer. Chris Brown is our 627 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 1: supervising producer. Hannah Rose Snyder is our producer. Paul Gemperlin 628 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: is our researcher. Ben Bolan is a consulting producer. And 629 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: I'm your host and executive producer, John Wallzac Crime Junkie 630 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 1: statements voiced by Noel Brown. Cover art by Pam Peacock, 631 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: Neon thirty three. Logo designed by Derek Rudy. Our intro 632 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 1: song is Utopia by Ruby Cube. Please download the first 633 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: two seasons of our show, Missing in Alaska and Missing 634 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: on nine to eleven, and if you're so inclined, give 635 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,920 Speaker 1: us a five star rating. Missing in Arizona is a 636 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 1: co production of iHeartRadio and Neon thirty three.