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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet as a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Toad and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet Welcome to

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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, where we explore

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Speaker 1: the intersection of identity, social media, technology, and the Internet. However,

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Speaker 1: if this is your first time ever listening to the show,

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Speaker 1: maybe this is not the episode to start with. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this episode is going to be representative

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Speaker 1: of the UVRA that we have built over the last

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Speaker 1: four years here that there are No Girls on the Internet. Generally,

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Speaker 1: the podcast does not really explore sort of like what's

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Speaker 1: going on personally with me as most listeners.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 1: However, I have been gone from the show since July,

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Speaker 1: and I figured it's time to let you all the

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Speaker 1: listeners in on some of what's been going on. This

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Speaker 1: being a tech I swear there is a tech angled

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Speaker 1: what's been going on with me. But yeah, if this

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Speaker 1: is your first time listening, Welcome, We're so excited to

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Speaker 1: have you. This might not be the one to start with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's probably good advice for people. It's

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Speaker 2: gonna be a little different. But Bridgie, it's so nice

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Speaker 2: to have you back here? Thank you for recording. And

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Speaker 2: I got to ask, how have things been with you?

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Speaker 1: If you watch Bravos Real Housewives of New York, you

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Speaker 1: know when Derenda is asked like, how are you doing?

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Speaker 1: Not well? Bitch? That's how I'm doing not well, bitch.

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Speaker 1: Things have been terrible. Things have been very, very bad

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Speaker 1: really all aspects of my life, professionally, personally, socially, in

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Speaker 1: all the ways that one can be bad. I am bad.

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Speaker 1: I feel like people listening are like, what the hell

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Speaker 1: is going on out there? Yet it's not been a

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Speaker 1: good I've not been a good summer and not been

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Speaker 1: a good fall.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know it's been very rough, and I really

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Speaker 2: commend you for wanting to get back on the mic

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Speaker 2: talk to listeners about what's been going on with you

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Speaker 2: and that you know. I know a lot of listeners

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Speaker 2: have written in with concern and expressing their support, which

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Speaker 2: was very nice. But so where do you want to start?

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Speaker 2: Do you want to just take us through chronologically or

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Speaker 2: something else.

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Speaker 1: I'll just jump in. So on the fourth of July,

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Speaker 1: I'll say, on the fourth of July, I had a

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Speaker 1: great fourth of July when kayaking celebrated all the stuff

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Speaker 1: that people do, blah blah blah. The next day I

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Speaker 1: got a call from my mom saying that my dad

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Speaker 1: had had a pretty bad fall down the stairs. People

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Speaker 1: who have been following me for a while, like back

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Speaker 1: in the stuff I've ever told you days, might recall

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Speaker 1: that my dad is disabled, has had a whole host

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Speaker 1: of like chronic health issues. You know, he has had

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Speaker 1: strokes on the pad. So this was not wholly new

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Speaker 1: territory for us as a family, but it was still

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Speaker 1: pretty rough news. He had been on the stairs. My

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Speaker 1: mom heard a loud crash, came downstairs, he was on

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Speaker 1: the ground. She called one when one the whole works.

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Speaker 1: The day after that was my brother and sister in law.

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Speaker 1: They were having a baby shower in Richmond, Virginia because

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Speaker 1: they're expecting twins. They since have had these twins, so

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Speaker 1: there are twin me said nephew out in the world,

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Speaker 1: which is great. So I came home. I was already

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Speaker 1: planning on going to see my family to be at

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Speaker 1: this baby shower. I went to the baby shower. Was

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Speaker 1: a lovely time. Saw my mom there, my brother there,

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Speaker 1: all my family there. After the baby shower was winding down,

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Speaker 1: my mom got in her car to drive to the

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Speaker 1: hospital to see my dad because he was still hospitalized

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Speaker 1: from that fall. Maybe an hour later, I excused myself

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Speaker 1: from the baby shower, also got in my car, drove

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Speaker 1: to the hospital to meet my mom and my dad.

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Speaker 1: Met up in my dad's hospital room. You know, my

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Speaker 1: dad was you know, he was in okay condition, like

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Speaker 1: was talking alert, you know, had had had some like

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Speaker 1: medical stuff going on. But like I was happy to

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Speaker 1: see him and happy to see that he was like

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Speaker 1: doing I thought, like more or less fun. Spent a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours visiting with him in the hospital. My

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Speaker 1: mom also my brother soon thereafter, the baby shower wrapped

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Speaker 1: up and he met us at the hospital, so the

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Speaker 1: entire family at the hospital. All in all, it was

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Speaker 1: like a fairly normal day. And I remember thinking, Wow,

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Speaker 1: I was so worried about my dad and that fall,

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Speaker 1: but he actually seems like he's gonna be okay. He

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Speaker 1: seemed pretty stable and solid. The next day, I go

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Speaker 1: visit my dad in the hospital. I was surprised that

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Speaker 1: my mom had not made it, so I'm sort of

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Speaker 1: like waiting around for her, like where's Mom, Where's Mom?

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Speaker 1: And I tell my dad that I you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: just like, oh, I haven't heard from Mom all day.

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Speaker 1: He's like, that's a new usual. You should have your

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Speaker 1: brother go check on her. And he did go check

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Speaker 1: on her, and she had passed away. She died very unexpectedly.

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Speaker 1: The last time I saw her was we were in

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Speaker 1: the hospital with my dad and I had walked her

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Speaker 1: to her car, and I guess I feel sort of

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Speaker 1: grateful that the last thing I said to her, I

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Speaker 1: remember the moment like very clearly. It's like very much

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Speaker 1: burned into my memory that the last moment that she

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Speaker 1: had with my dad was quite tender, like they hugged

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Speaker 1: and they kissed and you know, embraced, and that I

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Speaker 1: walked her to her car, and that our last moment

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Speaker 1: was tender, like I think I said, I love you,

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Speaker 1: And I'm grateful that that's what I said, is the

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Speaker 1: last thing, because I certainly had no idea that it

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Speaker 1: was going to be the last time that I ever

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Speaker 1: saw her alive.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's obviously he's so so terrible, I think,

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Speaker 2: to be with your dad in the hospital, you know,

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Speaker 2: a very concerning fall like he was in the hospital,

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Speaker 2: and then to lose your mom unexpectedly like two days later.

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Speaker 2: That's like a level of tragedy that I think many,

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Speaker 2: if not most people never experienced so like so much,

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Speaker 2: and so I just wanted to ask for the listener's benefit, like,

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Speaker 2: was did your mom have a lot of health problems?

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Speaker 2: Was this like something that was kind of expected or

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Speaker 2: or was it more out of the blue.

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Speaker 1: Completely out of the blue. My mom, you know, had

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Speaker 1: just turned seventy, so which was a big milestone birth

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Speaker 1: day for her. But in the scheme of things, seventy

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Speaker 1: is quite young, and so she didn't have like major

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Speaker 1: health complications. I will say the day, the last day

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Speaker 1: that we spent together, the day of my brother's baby shower,

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Speaker 1: was like a just a horribly hot day in Virginia.

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Speaker 1: It was like triple digits, you know. I was having

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Speaker 1: difficulty being out and about that day. I remember, notably,

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Speaker 1: it was like the hottest day of the summer, and

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Speaker 1: it was so hot that I remember thinking, like, I

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Speaker 1: wonder if they're going to cancel the baby shower because

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Speaker 1: it's so hot. Unfortunately, it's a long story, but we

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Speaker 1: were unable to do an autopsy, so I will never

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Speaker 1: really know what happened, which you know, was difficult for

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Speaker 1: me to accept that. But in some ways it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: I guess I've come to sort of that conclusion that

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely the kind of person who would really like

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Speaker 1: perseverates that the right word perseverate on the details and

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Speaker 1: the why and the how and the like could this

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Speaker 1: have been prevented? And that's definitely like a way that

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Speaker 1: I cope. And in some ways it's okay that I

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Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, it has to be okay. I've

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Speaker 1: had to have made peace with the fact that I'll

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Speaker 1: never know what happened, and you know that that is

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Speaker 1: how it has to be. But when I say it

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Speaker 1: was unexpected, like my mom, she had like a ring camera,

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Speaker 1: even though you know, we tell how much do I

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Speaker 1: rail against those? And my mom didn't listen to the show,

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Speaker 1: so she didn't hear we had to say about ring

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Speaker 1: So she had one. And the last thing that she

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Speaker 1: did was that she called to order delivery, like dinner

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Speaker 1: delivery food. And you know, she calls the order in

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Speaker 1: on her phone because we now have that. You see

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Speaker 1: the delivery driver come to her door, knock on the door,

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Speaker 1: you know, wait around, knock again, wait around. She doesn't answer,

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Speaker 1: So in between her calling to order food when she

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Speaker 1: got home after the last night that I saw her

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Speaker 1: at the hospital. She you know that past and you know,

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Speaker 1: as horrible as it was, I guess the way that

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to cope is really look for the bright

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Speaker 1: sides and the positive because the situation was so horrible

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Speaker 1: that it's the only thing I can do. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there are positives. You know that she spent her last

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Speaker 1: day with her whole family. You know, she did not

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Speaker 1: appear to have been in any pain, Like it was

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Speaker 1: not like she had a fall. She was in her

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Speaker 1: in her favorite chair. Like when we found her at first,

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Speaker 1: you know, it looked like she was just asleep, so

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Speaker 1: she wasn't you know, it wasn't like she was like

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Speaker 1: face down on the floor or something, which is something

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Speaker 1: that I've sort of been clinging to. But yeah, was

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Speaker 1: very deeply unexpected. I was in informed of this by

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Speaker 1: my brother at the hospital. I didn't tell my dad.

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Speaker 1: I ran out of the hospital one of his nurses, who,

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Speaker 1: by the way, a theme of this episode might be

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Speaker 1: like shout out to nurses. Nurses are angels, because every

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Speaker 1: hero of this story has been a nurse. They'll get

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Speaker 1: to that later. But yeah, my dad's nurse was like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I like collapsed in the hospital hallway

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Speaker 1: and she held me and helped me get up and

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Speaker 1: was like she was like, don't tell your dad, just

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Speaker 1: go rushed home found her. I don't know if anybody

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Speaker 1: out there has ever found a loved one dead, but

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Speaker 1: it sticks with you. I guess I'll just put it

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Speaker 1: that way. It's very difficult. It's not something I wish on,

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Speaker 1: I would ever wish on my worst enemy. It's really hard.

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Speaker 1: It's not something you ever like forget.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine how difficult that must have been.

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Speaker 2: You know. I think your focus on like trying to

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Speaker 2: focus on some of those positive things that I mean,

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Speaker 2: I had no idea, but that seems seems like a

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Speaker 2: positive thing to think about. And you know, I think

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Speaker 2: the fact that it sounds like she when quickly without pain,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think that is something that when I've

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Speaker 2: had people close to me die often they haven't had that,

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Speaker 2: and I wish that they had. So I think that

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Speaker 2: truly is something.

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Speaker 1: Well spoiler alert, because I get to experience both. I'm special.

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Speaker 1: I'm that special that if you've ever wondered, like, well,

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Speaker 1: what I rather have my loved one die unexpectedly without

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Speaker 1: any pain in her sleep very quickly, or have them

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Speaker 1: fade away from a disease for which there is no

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Speaker 1: cure slowly, bit by bit. I got to tell you

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Speaker 1: both are bad. I'm experiencing both as we speaking. Spoiler

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Speaker 1: alert for how terrible the last few months have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I definitely want to come back to your

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Speaker 2: mom because I've had I had the opportunity to meet her.

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Speaker 2: She was an amazing person and I uh.

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Speaker 1: I loved to you, by the way.

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Speaker 2: Oh so I definitely want to come back to her.

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Speaker 2: But let's complete the story. So, like, what are you

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Speaker 2: talking about that you've gotten to experience both well?

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Speaker 1: As I mentioned, my dad was in the hospital when

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Speaker 1: this happened, and when I left his room, I did

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Speaker 1: not tell him that my mom had died because it

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Speaker 1: sounds wild to say, but I genuinely did not believe

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Speaker 1: it. It was not until I saw her that I started

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Speaker 1: to believe it and believe it or not. Even a

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Speaker 1: little bit after, I like wasn't sure. I was like,

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Speaker 1: maybe something will happen. Once she was like in a casket,

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Speaker 1: I was like, okay, she probably this probably is what's happening,

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Speaker 1: but like that, but like that is how unexpected this

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Speaker 1: was to me. So, you know, I went home, was

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Speaker 1: talking to my family, and we decided that we had

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Speaker 1: to go back to the hospital the next day and

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Speaker 1: break the news to my dad. And as hard as

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Speaker 1: it was for me, my dad had it worse. I

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Speaker 1: really feel for my dad. So we had to break

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Speaker 1: the news to him in the hospital that you know,

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Speaker 1: he'd seen my mom for the last time, and from

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Speaker 1: there it was like something turned off in him. It

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Speaker 1: was like and maybe people who have been through something

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Speaker 1: like this can chime in and let me know, because

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Speaker 1: apparently it is not uncommon, but it was like a

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Speaker 1: light somewhere and my dad turned off. And since my

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Speaker 1: mom passed away, my dad has continued to get worse

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Speaker 1: and worse. Since that day that he was admitted to

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Speaker 1: the hospital on the fourth of July. He has not

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Speaker 1: walked since then. He has been in either a hospital

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Speaker 1: or a rehab facility, back to hospital, back to rehab,

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Speaker 1: back to hospital. He has not gone home. He has

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Speaker 1: not spent a single solitary moment, not in a facility

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Speaker 1: of some kind since then.

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Speaker 2: And so just just to chime in, uh so we're

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Speaker 2: recording this on November one, and he entered on July fourth,

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Speaker 2: so that's.

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Speaker 1: That's right months. And to give you a sense, like

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Speaker 1: a week before my dad was hospitalized in July, I

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Speaker 1: had had lunch with him in Fredericksburg, Virginia, and so

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Speaker 1: he got into his car, drove himself the hour and

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Speaker 1: changed away to Fredericksburg, walked into the restaurant. We had

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Speaker 1: a totally normal you know, no flags were raised. It's

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Speaker 1: not like so my dad went from like a pretty

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Speaker 1: independent person who had chronic health challenges, had this fall

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Speaker 1: and then it was like once once he heard about

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Speaker 1: my mom, it was yeah, I just the only I

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Speaker 1: can describe it as like something turned off in him.

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Speaker 1: And so he has continued to get worse and worse

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Speaker 1: and worse. He is currently hospitalized. I have really spent

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Speaker 1: most of my time since July with him. It's just yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's just been hard. So like I'm still very much

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Speaker 1: in this and you know, my mom has passed away.

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Speaker 1: My dad is not doing well. I have been living

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Speaker 1: in kind of various hotels and Arabian bees in Virginia

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Speaker 1: to be with him. Shout out to an amazing nonprofit

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Speaker 1: in Richmond. Virginia called Doorways because they provide low cost,

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Speaker 1: accessible housing that is near where my dad is hospitalized.

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Speaker 1: If not for them, I don't I don't know what

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Speaker 1: I would do. Like I've I've spent all my money

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Speaker 1: trying to be in Richmond to be with him because

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Speaker 1: he can't walk, can't really speak, needs someone to be

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Speaker 1: advocating for him, and that person is me. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's been that's really been my life for the last

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Speaker 1: few months. But I do want to back up because

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Speaker 1: I said that this story had a tech angle, and

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Speaker 1: I meant it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, you said there was that tech angle.

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Speaker 2: So and again I want to get to hearing about

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Speaker 2: your mom. But what is the what's the tech angle

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Speaker 2: in this story?

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Speaker 1: Well, so the day that my mom passed away was

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Speaker 1: July seventh. That was the day that we found her

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Speaker 1: less than twelve hours later. Imagine my surprise when an

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Speaker 1: obituary is published and goes semi viral on social media

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Speaker 1: about my mom. Now you might be asking, oh, did

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Speaker 1: someone in your family write this obituary like very early

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Speaker 1: on and submit it. That's what we thought, right, And

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Speaker 1: it makes sense that you would be thinking that, But

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Speaker 1: that is not what happened, So less than twelve hours

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Speaker 1: after we found my mom's dead body in her house,

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Speaker 1: before we had ever even informed my own father, Coamma,

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Speaker 1: her husband, Kamma, her next of kin of her death.

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Speaker 1: Imagine my surprise when a scammy AI obituary, pirate, piece

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Speaker 1: of shit media, whatever you want to call it, website

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Speaker 1: publishes a badly written, hacky, full of errors, full of

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Speaker 1: insidious ads obituary for my mom. This was before we

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Speaker 1: had a chance to go to the hospital to talk

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Speaker 1: to my dad. This was before we had informed the

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Speaker 1: entirety of our family. This was truly even before I

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Speaker 1: had really like internalized what had happened, This had already

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Speaker 1: gone viral on Facebook. Now I should say I would

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Speaker 1: call my mom kind of a local celebrity in our town.

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Speaker 1: My mom was a really respected and distinguished pediatrician, and basically,

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Speaker 1: if you were like a black person in Richmond, she

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Speaker 1: was probably your pediatrician, or you knew somebody who she

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Speaker 1: was their doctor. She has been in private practice for decades,

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Speaker 1: and so generations and generations and generations of people have

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Speaker 1: been treated by her. I would say that she's kind

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Speaker 1: of a town hero. Like when I would go out

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Speaker 1: to dinner with her, go to the mall with her. People.

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Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. And this is not just like the

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Speaker 1: rosy sheen that I'm putting on her because she was

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Speaker 1: my mom. This is like, like I mean this literally,

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Speaker 1: people would run out of shops to hug her for

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Speaker 1: saving their lives. I've seen this happen multiple times on

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Speaker 1: multiple different outings. People have run from inside shops to

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Speaker 1: hug her and say, you saved my daughter's life, you

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Speaker 1: saved my son's life, you saved my sister's life. Right,

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Speaker 1: So my mom was she a public figure, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's a little debatable. However, she was somebody that

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Speaker 1: had a profile in my town. I'll put it that way.

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Speaker 1: And so here's what I think happened. From the technical side. So,

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Speaker 1: my mom was a doctor who was like known for

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Speaker 1: never canceling appointments. She loved what she did. She was

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Speaker 1: a really hard worker. I think that when waves and

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Speaker 1: waves of appointments started getting canceled, rumors start flying that

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Speaker 1: something has happened to her. Because the demographic that she

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Speaker 1: serves in Richmond is also a demographic that is like

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Speaker 1: heavy on Facebook. If you searched my mom's name on Facebook.

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Speaker 1: It is like thousands and thousands and thousands of people

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Speaker 1: who are being like, what's going on with with my mom?

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Speaker 1: What's going on with her? What's going on with her?

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Speaker 1: You know? Is she alive? Is she okay? I've done

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Speaker 1: a lot of looking into this. Here's what I think

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Speaker 1: is going on. From a technical standpoint, I think that

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Speaker 1: people who are running scammy AI obituary shops online are

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Speaker 1: clogging it when someone's name is enjoying a boost from search,

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Speaker 1: when people are searching for someone's name a lot, when

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Speaker 1: people are using someone's name a lot on social media,

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Speaker 1: and that's how they determine we're going to cook up

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Speaker 1: an AI generated obituary for this person. And that is

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Speaker 1: exactly what they did. So I'm not kidding. I knew

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Speaker 1: she was gone for less than twelve hours when this

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Speaker 1: piece was published, and when it was published, it went

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Speaker 1: wildly viral on Facebook, to the point where people that

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Speaker 1: I had not spoken to in years, people I certainly

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Speaker 1: didn't tell what was going on, were texting me sending

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Speaker 1: me the link to the obituary being like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: I heard about your mom. I'm so sorry, right, and

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Speaker 1: so mind you we hadn't talked to my dad yet.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, like depending on how you look

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Speaker 1: at it. Luckily, my dad was not in a position

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Speaker 1: where he could be scrolling his phone. Had my dad

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Speaker 1: had his phone, he absolutely would have heard the news

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Speaker 1: about the death of his wife from Facebook. There's no

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Speaker 1: way that he would not have. The saving grace is

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Speaker 1: that my dad, in his state, was not able to

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Speaker 1: have his phone and be looking at his phone. Had

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Speaker 1: he had access to his phone, that is how he

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Speaker 1: would have found out about his wife passing away, not

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Speaker 1: from his kids, not from his family. I have to

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Speaker 1: pause there because, like, even talking about it now, it

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Speaker 1: makes me want to vomit. It like it fills me

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Speaker 1: with such rage and disgust for my fellow human that

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Speaker 1: it makes me I mean, you know, give report on

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00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,400
Speaker 1: tech harms for four years and then they happen to you,

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Speaker 1: and you can't believe that the depravity and the depths

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Speaker 1: that people will go for to generate a quick buck online.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's truly despicable. I think there are a lot

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Speaker 2: of different perspectives in society. People have different values, but

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Speaker 2: I think one thing that pretty much every human I've

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Speaker 2: ever met, like has in common is that everybody recognizes

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Speaker 2: that when you lose a close member of your family,

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Speaker 2: that's hard and there should be some respect given. And

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Speaker 2: uh to take that kind of event and just turn

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Speaker 2: it into more seo chum to drive clicks or whatever

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Speaker 2: the scam was to monetize this event that to you

376
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Speaker 2: was like one of the most difficult things you've ever

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Speaker 2: been through, and to them is just like another data

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Speaker 2: point to monetize. It really is despicable and highlights like

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Speaker 2: the worst of the ways that technology can harm us.

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Speaker 1: This was the worst day of my life was the

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Speaker 1: day that I found my mom's dead body in her house.

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Speaker 1: Every day since then has been a living nightmare from

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Speaker 1: which there is no waking up. And I will not

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Speaker 1: rest until the people who have monetized this day of

385
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Speaker 1: mine lose everything. This is like it's fucking war with me.

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Speaker 1: I will never be over this. It will be I will.

387
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,479
Speaker 1: I will go to my grave shaming these people and

388
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Speaker 1: talking about this and speaking about this. So this is

389
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Speaker 1: not over by a long shot. I have some names,

390
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,399
Speaker 1: so one of us you'll hear later on. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm coming for all of you people, So I hope

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Speaker 1: you're fucking ready let's take a quick break at her back.

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Speaker 1: So you said you wanted to circle back to talking

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Speaker 1: about my mom, So let's do that because anybody who

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Speaker 1: knew my mom, met my mom, ever experienced my mom,

396
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: will tell you that she was a force. Like Again,

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Speaker 1: this is not me saying this because I'm her daughter,

398
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Speaker 1: although I do have a special affinity for her obviously,

399
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Speaker 1: But my mom was born into abject poverty in rural Virginia.

400
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Speaker 1: As an orphan. She worked in farms. You know, it's

401
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,479
Speaker 1: just like a farm hand, bounced from family to family

402
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: and foster care working on farms in rural Virginia. She

403
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: was born with nothing. She worked her way up, was

404
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: at the top of her school in college, top of

405
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: her classes in med school, became probably the top rated

406
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Speaker 1: pediatrician in our town. Right the day that she died.

407
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: The week after that, the whole family was meant to

408
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,880
Speaker 1: be going to Virginia Beach to watch her get a

409
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: massive award for pediatrics. Right, my mom has been on

410
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: National Spotlight, She's been on the Today Show talking about

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00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: the work that she's done for childhood literacy. She is

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Speaker 1: an amazing person who has had a dynamic and multifaceted

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00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: life story. Anybody who has met her could tell you

414
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Speaker 1: what a colorful person she was, What a smart person

415
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: she was, What a funny person she was, What a

416
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 1: warm person, what she was, What a passionate person she was,

417
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 1: What an a pitiated person she was? Like she was

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Speaker 1: a person who lived in full color. Right. The thing

419
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Speaker 1: that pisses me off the mo about this AI obituary

420
00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: that they published about her is that it's so generic

421
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: and so flat. They say, oh, she was a pediatrician

422
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,640
Speaker 1: who was specialized in children's medicine. Well, what the fuck

423
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 1: else would a pediatrician specialize in. That's like saying, oh,

424
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: he was a firefighter who specialized in flames. Obviously she

425
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: specialized in children's medicine. The way that it's written, it's

426
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: just the most AI generated, flat piece of bullshit I

427
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: have ever read in my life, And it is so

428
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: deeply offensive to me. If a human was sitting down

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Speaker 1: to write an obituary about my mom, there are so

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00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 1: many things that you obviously would have included. The first

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00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,199
Speaker 1: obituary that was published, because there was a handful of them,

432
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 1: did not include one single detail. It was all vagaries.

433
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, I know we have a lot

434
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 2: of younger listeners who maybe have not yet had the

435
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: experience of having a close loved one die. And to you,

436
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: I say, congratulations. Keep writing that wave as long as

437
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: you can, but it is coming, and when it does,

438
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 2: you will realize that obituaries are important. I don't know.

439
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: I personally didn't really think much of them until my

440
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: grandparents passed a few years ago and I was very

441
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 2: close with them. I personally wrote their obituaries and it

442
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: was a really meaningful thing for me, and I think

443
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,760
Speaker 2: something meaningful for my family, and it just really like,

444
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 2: it means a lot to have an obituary that does

445
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 2: reflect who the person was in their life, and yet

446
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,199
Speaker 2: the sting of having that taken away, it would make

447
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 2: my blood boil.

448
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,160
Speaker 1: Oh, my blood is boiling, my friend, my blood is boiling.

449
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: And it is even worse that I am not alone.

450
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: So it turns out that this kind of practice is

451
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: actually commonplace, and it's been going on for a while.

452
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 1: It has been made worse by the proliferation of AI.

453
00:26:56,720 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 1: Funeral homes have actually been fighting oh bitch, wear a scam,

454
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: obituary pirates whatever you want to call it, for fifteen

455
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: twenty years, but it's really taken off with technology. I

456
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: actually was interviewed for an article in Fast Company after

457
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: this happened. The article I'll link it in the show notes,

458
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: but it's like almost difficult for me to read because

459
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: when I was interviewed, I was still very much I mean,

460
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 1: I'm still in the thick of it now, but I

461
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: was like really in the thick of it then. And

462
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,440
Speaker 1: in the interview, I feel like I come off as

463
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 1: like unwell, and I was unwell, like I really was,

464
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: you know, I had just buried my mom. I had

465
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 1: and this was totally unexpected. I was literally sleeping in

466
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: my dad's I see you room for a month, so

467
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: like his room has a couch in it, I was

468
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: just curling up on my couch and that's where I

469
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,920
Speaker 1: was living for a literal month. I was dealing with

470
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: all of his health stuff, talking to doctors every day,

471
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to you know, you know,

472
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 1: my mom died unexpectedly, so trying to figure out all

473
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,360
Speaker 1: of her like a state stuff, her will, like all

474
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: of this like incredibly complicated stuff, funeral arrangements, stuff that

475
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:12,359
Speaker 1: we had never talked about, which we'll get into that

476
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 1: in a minute. But I was just struggling. I was

477
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: I was on well. So it's almost hard for me

478
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 1: to go back and read that article because I'm like,

479
00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: oh my god, like I was really in it. But yeah,

480
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: when someone is going through one of the most difficult times.

481
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: For me, it wasn't just one of the most it

482
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: was the most difficult time of my entire life. Having

483
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: there be obituary pirates who are capitalizing off of that,

484
00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: and adding to that, I wanted to die. It just

485
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: was really hard. And you know what made it worse

486
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: was that the AI generated obituaries hit the Internet very

487
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: quickly and went viral on Facebook very quickly. And so

488
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 1: when our family actually submitted a real obituary written by

489
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: my aunt Ruth, who did a beautiful job, when that

490
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: was submitted to the funeral home and put on line

491
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: for a while, the AI generated obituary still had more reach.

492
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: Like when you googled my mom's name plus obituary, the

493
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: ones that were written by her family with actual information,

494
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: not to mention, you know, no inaccuracies. Because the AI

495
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: generated ones had inaccuracies, those were not as high up

496
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: on Google for a time as the ones that were bullshit,

497
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 1: and so you know, you were talking about how obituaries matter.

498
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: They matter for so many reasons, not the least of

499
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: which is, you know, the obituary written by our family

500
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: had information about the services, information about how you could

501
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: connect with the family. I go on to these, you know,

502
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: AI scammy sites, and there are real people who my

503
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: mom actually knew leaving condolences. They don't know that that

504
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 1: has nothing. Our family didn't authorize that, they didn't put

505
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: that up right. And so that's just a logistical reason

506
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: as to why these are so messed up. But you're right,

507
00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: obituaries matter. Obituaries it it matters when someone passes away.

508
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: The act of writing an obituary is important, and you know,

509
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: you write them for other people. You write them for humans.

510
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: You don't write them to generate money. And you don't

511
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: take away someone's right to mourn their mother the way

512
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: that they want to do it. You don't take that

513
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: away from them. That was stolen from me. Other than

514
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: my close family and like my close close circle of friends,

515
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,479
Speaker 1: I didn't tell anybody my mom passed away, and they

516
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: all knew. They all knew from that AI bullshit. I

517
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: can't even express what that feels like like I feel

518
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: like I was robbed of the opportunity to mourn my

519
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: mother on my own terms. Grieving is hard enough, having

520
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: to grieve in this digital fish bowl is just I

521
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,360
Speaker 1: can't even describe what that felt like. I'm still I'm

522
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: still not over it. Maybe I'll never be over it.

523
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 1: And you know, I just distinctly remember having this moment

524
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,080
Speaker 1: maybe an hour after my family met at my dad's

525
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 1: hospital room to tell him that my mom had died,

526
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: where it was me, my brother, my sister in law,

527
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: my aunts, my mom's sisters, and somebody had sent one

528
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: of the AI generated obituaries to my aunt, and we

529
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: all had this moment where we were like who published this,

530
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: who submitted this? And I don't want to say we

531
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: were like accusing each other, but it was a tense moment.

532
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: It was a moment of like, who in this very

533
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 1: close circle of like friends and family went to the

534
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: media and come to find out, none of us did.

535
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: That was just just a thing that was taken from

536
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:47,080
Speaker 1: us by scammers. And so yeah, that was a moment

537
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: on top of the worst moment of my life that

538
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: we didn't need as a family. We already had enough

539
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: on our plates as a family, and yeah, the fact

540
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,560
Speaker 1: that this is a common practice is just unacceptable. Here's

541
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 1: a here, there's a bit from the Fast Company article

542
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: that I was quoted in. I didn't say this, but

543
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 1: this was what the journalist wrote. AI generated obits are

544
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 1: now filling the web, marking a new chapter in the

545
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: quest to monetize grief. Many of these sites turning out

546
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 1: AI generated content exploiting the dead are based in Asia

547
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: and appear to be run solely to generate ad revenue.

548
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 1: As I said, my mom was a bit of a

549
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm a call of a celebrity, but

550
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,480
Speaker 1: like she was like a known entity in our town. However,

551
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: Fast Company also spoke to people who didn't have any

552
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 1: kind of public profile, for whom these scammy rags still

553
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 1: published AI obituaries for. In some cases, the person is

554
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: not even really dead. A journalist wrote a piece about

555
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: the anxiety that she experiences while driving on LA's freeways,

556
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: and she told CNN that she believes that the spike

557
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: in online traffic attached to her name from that piece

558
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: being published is why scammers decided to say that she

559
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: died on the internet. Their hope is that that little

560
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: spike in traffic attached to her name means that more

561
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: people will click on that obituary, which will lead to

562
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 1: monetary revenue for whoever's putting that up. But she wasn't dead.

563
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: In fact, she was sitting in a hospital room helping

564
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: a friend through surgery when her phone started blowing up

565
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: because these videos of AI generated news anchors were talking

566
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:23,800
Speaker 1: about how she died in a car crash. She said,

567
00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 1: I was sad. Reading your own obituary is a surreal experience.

568
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: After speaking with experts, I was scared for myself, for

569
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: all journalists, and for our society. And yeah, I'm also scared. Yeah,

570
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 1: it is scary. You know.

571
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: One of the things that you mentioned, that was talked

572
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: about in some of those articles that you shared ahead

573
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 2: of this recording was the idea that these obituary pirates

574
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: have been doing this for twenty years, maybe a little

575
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: bit longer, and so it does seem like a good

576
00:33:53,960 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: example of the sort of harm that has been ongoing,

577
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: the sort of tech enabled harm that has really been

578
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: like turbocharged with AI to allow them to churn these

579
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,800
Speaker 2: out so much faster and more cheaply.

580
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: Exactly, but even the ones that are not necessarily AI

581
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,280
Speaker 1: generated are still pretty creepy. Kate nibs Over at Wired

582
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: reported on how YouTubers are modifying this practice by just

583
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 1: summarizing obituaries of dead strangers in videos. Somebody was upset

584
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 1: enough by this after watching strangers make videos hastily summarizing

585
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: a good friend's death that they reached out to her,

586
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: she writes. Sometimes these obituary YouTubers promote products in the

587
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: video description, like a two hundred and twenty five dollars

588
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,160
Speaker 1: vitamin sea cream for sale on Amazon. Sometimes they just

589
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 1: list strings of SEO, baiting keywords like death, cause of death, die, rip,

590
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: what happened? While each channel differs from the next in

591
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: small ways, there's a unifying aesthetic. Everything looks rushed and careless.

592
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 1: There's no hint of emotion or acknowledgment that they're discussing

593
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: someone's greatest tragedy. And as you said, Mike, this is

594
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,360
Speaker 1: not new. Funeral homes have been dealing with obituary aggravator

595
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 1: sites for fifteen or twenty years. This is from Courtney Miller,

596
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: chief strategy officer at MkJ Marketing, who specializes in funeral services.

597
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 1: She says that the site's trall news articles and local

598
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: funeral home websites looking for an initial death announcement that

599
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 1: has basic details like name, age, and where a service

600
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 1: might be held. They then scrape and republish that content

601
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 1: at scale using templated formats or today increasingly AI tools.

602
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 1: So basically these people are just exploiting SEO and like

603
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 1: Google trends and things like that. SEO expert Chris silver

604
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: Smith says there's a whole new strategy in search rankings,

605
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: and I believe it's based off of getting information that

606
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,960
Speaker 1: someone has died and seeing there's a little spike in

607
00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:50,439
Speaker 1: traffic perhaps in a specific region for that person's name,

608
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: and rapidly optimizing and publishing articles about the person to

609
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,760
Speaker 1: get these dribbles of search traffic.

610
00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 2: Dribbles of search traffic is such a like diminutive term,

611
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,080
Speaker 2: but that feels correct here, Like it's hard to imagine

612
00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,040
Speaker 2: that they're making any sort of serious money off any

613
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 2: individual obituary, And I guess it's really like the scale

614
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: of it that allows this to be a fruitful enterprise

615
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,000
Speaker 2: for these scammers to take people's lives and flatten them

616
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 2: down in this way, to almost like turn people's death

617
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: into a commodity, Like what is the business model there

618
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 2: is it that Well.

619
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: It's pretty much exactly that. They just start playing on

620
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 1: the surge of interest in keywords related to death s'suck

621
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: my mom's name, and they just pump out low effort

622
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:44,240
Speaker 1: content to try to capitalize on that flow of web traffic.

623
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: It's really a numbers game, and I think that's why

624
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: it kind of like has to be so low effort,

625
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 1: because I don't think that anybody was making a lot

626
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: of money individually from my mom's AIBS obituary. But if

627
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: you do it for enough people, if you crank them out,

628
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 1: crank them out, and crank them out in aggregate, you

629
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 1: can probably make some money. And obituaries really are big business.

630
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 1: A Wired piece called the Morbid War over online Obituaries

631
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: from twenty twenty one describes this company, Echovita. These people

632
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: are basically a ring of obituary scammers. So companies like

633
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: Echovita they take this scam a step further. So Echovita

634
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: was sued by Service Corporation International, which is like a

635
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 1: conglamorate of fifteen hundred funeral homes, and they alleged that

636
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: the company was scraping details from obituaries written by family

637
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: members from funeral home websites and just republishing them. Quote.

638
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 1: Mining people's personal data at the lowest point in their

639
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: lives is disappointing. A spokesperson for the Funeral Conglamorate told

640
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: Wired in an email. So Echovita makes money through purporting

641
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: to connect mourners with flower delivery services or other like

642
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 1: funeral services that they then profit from. But wait, I'm sorry.

643
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: Did I give these fucking goals permission to profit financially

644
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,399
Speaker 1: from my mom's death? No? I fucking didn't. I've never

645
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: talked to these people. I don't know these people, and

646
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: yet when I searched their scam enterprise website, what you know,

647
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: there's my mom's name, there's my mom's information next to

648
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: these like insidious scammy pop up ads that are like, oh,

649
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: for thirty dollars, you can plant a tree in honor

650
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: of my mom. Also side note, my mom would have

651
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 1: hated that. She would have thought that was so hacky.

652
00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: She would have never approved that. I didn't approve that,

653
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: yet on their website, these guls are making money off

654
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,920
Speaker 1: of my dead mother without anybody in my family's permission.

655
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 2: So terrible and like big money, Like you said.

656
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: Right, So, according to a piece about another lawsuit against Ecuovida,

657
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: the company has an option for people to claim an

658
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: obituary right. So I could provide documentation to Echovida proving

659
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,759
Speaker 1: that my mom is my mom at If I did that,

660
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: I could then take a cut of whatever profit they

661
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: make from flowers, in candles or whatever else. But I'm sorry,

662
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: that is just gross. Why should I have to prove

663
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: to you that I am my mother's daughter. You a

664
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 1: stranger that I have not provided to have anything to

665
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: do with me or my family. Why do I need

666
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:23,399
Speaker 1: to provide documentation to you to prove anything? Who gave

667
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 1: you permission to have my mom's name on your scam website?

668
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,520
Speaker 2: And how generous of them to give you some undefined

669
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 2: cut of their choschke sales.

670
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,799
Speaker 1: I'm not even sure that people would actually get the

671
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 1: flowers or the tree is actually planted, because, according to

672
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: the trust Pilot reviews and EcoVida, the flowers that people

673
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: are sending the money to buy might not even show up,

674
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 1: and the company is just like pocketing the money. Here's

675
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 1: one review from trust Pilot quote, these are leech companies

676
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: that take obituaries from legitimate funeral home site and post

677
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: them on their own sites to profit from The obituary

678
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: is often inaccurate. They are just trying to sell try,

679
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: et cetera without permission or authorization from their families. They

680
00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: just did this to us on the loss of my

681
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: fourteen year old grandson. Our funeral director has made several

682
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: attempts to stop this, but always hits a dead end.

683
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 1: I have warned everyone we shared our obituary with, and

684
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,240
Speaker 1: I am writing a letter to the Secretary of State.

685
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 2: It's kind of surprising that they are still doing this

686
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 2: with impunity, given stories like that from a grandmother who

687
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: sounds like she's pretty mad. Listening to you sounds like

688
00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: you're pretty mad. I wouldn't want to be the focus

689
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: of that.

690
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: Ire Oh Ethovida CEO, Paco Laclerk, your name is going

691
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,279
Speaker 1: to be on my lips and on my fingers for

692
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: the rest of both of our lives. I'm going to

693
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: be on your ass like white on Rice. You will

694
00:40:44,560 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: never shake me. My family is own an apology. I

695
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: am getting that apology, rest assured. Also, fun fact about

696
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 1: Ecovita is like, I mean, you know, Mike, you know

697
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: I love reading when there's like a review site and

698
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: somebody leaves a bad review, owner comes on to be like,

699
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: that's not true. You did get those chicken fingers blah.

700
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 1: If you go on to the trust pilot reviews for Echovida,

701
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: somebody I assume it's Echovida ceo Paco la Clerk is

702
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: arguing back with everybody. So because if all of these

703
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:18,879
Speaker 1: people being like, these people are scammers, they are trying

704
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 1: to profit off the death of my child, These people

705
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:24,000
Speaker 1: are ghouls, And then you have the owner or somebody

706
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: replying to each of you being like, that's not true.

707
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: We're a legitimate business. You're lying. If you find yourself

708
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: arguing back with dozens of people who are who are

709
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,959
Speaker 1: accusing you angrily of scamming and making money from their

710
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: dead family members, give it up, Like, at what point

711
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: are you? At what point did you take a step

712
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: back and be like, am I the ghoul? Here? Am

713
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,839
Speaker 1: I the one and the wrong here? Like, once you're

714
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 1: arguing with multiple people who are grieving, the asshole is

715
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: you Pacoh? Yeah?

716
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:54,960
Speaker 2: That does seem like it should be a pretty clear

717
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 2: signal that like maybe one needs to take a look

718
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,800
Speaker 2: at what they are doing. If they are are engaged

719
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 2: in lots of online disputes with grieving family members.

720
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 1: Correct, So let's talk more about our friend. Pascal Paco,

721
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 1: la Clerk, owner of Echo Vita so Lecourt, claims that

722
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: his company their mission is virtuous. He's just informing the

723
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,360
Speaker 1: public of recent deaths at the public service. He says

724
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: that anybody can publish obituaries on his website for free

725
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: and says quote, in reality, the funeral home should never

726
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 1: be the owner of an obituary. The obituary's purpose is

727
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:34,320
Speaker 1: to share information with the public. So in my case,

728
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,920
Speaker 1: is it Paco's job to inform my ill father of

729
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: the unexpected death of his wife of forty years. Is

730
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: it Paco's job or is it his family's job? Because

731
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: I feel like my dad doesn't even know who Paco

732
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: fucking is and he needs to stay out of it.

733
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: This idea that he is doing a virtuous public service

734
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: and that the public has a right to know when

735
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:02,359
Speaker 1: someone passes. If you've ever had the misfortune of having

736
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,280
Speaker 1: to bury a loved one, especially unexpectedly, it is very

737
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: difficult and it is nobody's business but the family and

738
00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 1: the grieving person to decide how and when that information

739
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 1: is distributed. What is this idea that when somebody dies automatically,

740
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: the entire public has to be informed. Like I'm telling you,

741
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:27,760
Speaker 1: it is such a callous way of robbing the grieving

742
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: from what should be an intimate process that they can

743
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: work out on their own as a family. Nobody has

744
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: the right to swoop in and inform the public before

745
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: the family is even ready to do that, and they

746
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:42,839
Speaker 1: certainly shouldn't be doing it to make a quick buck.

747
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: Like Pascal Paco Laclerk is truly detestable.

748
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a real piece of shit. More after a

749
00:43:52,400 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: quick break, let's get right back into it. So you

750
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 1: might be wondering how did Egovida come to be? Well,

751
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: before Echovida, there was a company called Afterlife that was

752
00:44:12,480 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: shuddered after a ruling, a twenty million dollar ruling against

753
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 1: them for pirating the obituaries and pictures of dead people

754
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: in order to profit from grieving families. I have to

755
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: say the judge in this case, Federal Court Judge Catherine Kine,

756
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: really laid down the law, and she said that the

757
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 1: reason she was being so intense was because she thought

758
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: that their behavior was high handed, reprehensible, and marked a

759
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: departure from standards of decency, and so she was like,

760
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 1: I need to like make an example of them so

761
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: they will never never do this again. Get a load

762
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:47,240
Speaker 1: of this quote that Paco gave to The Globe after

763
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 1: the judge's ruling on Afterlives. So Afterlives, unlike Echovida, Echovida

764
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,720
Speaker 1: at least uses Ai to kind of Frankenstein the obituaries

765
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: just enough so they sound a little bit different. So

766
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: it's like not totally just explicitly copy and pasting. After

767
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 1: Lives was just that touching obituary that you wrote for

768
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: your grandfather, Mike, They would just a copy paste on that.

769
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: Bad boy, steal a picture of your grandfather from your Facebook,

770
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: put it up there, add a link to buy a

771
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,959
Speaker 1: tree that maybe between you and me nobody would ever get,

772
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: pocket the money and fucking profit, and then bounce to

773
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:22,400
Speaker 1: the next one.

774
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 2: How would you feel about that, Well, sir, I wouldn't

775
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:25,399
Speaker 2: like it.

776
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,759
Speaker 1: No, So it might not surprise you to find that

777
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:34,240
Speaker 1: that is against the law. But after that twenty million

778
00:45:34,280 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: dollar ruling which shuddered Afterlife, this is the quote that

779
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: our friend Paco stand up Guy, gave to the Globe.

780
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: Quote the day we heard that publishing obituaries on the

781
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: Internet similar to that of newspapers, and using photos and

782
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:53,360
Speaker 1: original text was unacceptable. We immediately stopped operating the company. Homie,

783
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:56,359
Speaker 1: why would you think that stealing the photos of dead

784
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: strangers is an acceptable way to make money in the

785
00:45:59,040 --> 00:45:59,760
Speaker 1: first place.

786
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 2: And then he went on to start this other company

787
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 2: that does the same thing but a little bit different

788
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: so that it can avoid copyright infringement.

789
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: Right, yes, yes, exactly that. And so the new company, EcoVida,

790
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: it is big business. Paco says that he this company

791
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 1: has generated five million dollars in revenue off of people's

792
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: obituaries in twenty twenty alone. Much like Afterlives, the company

793
00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: that was shuttered after that twenty million dollar ruling, Ecovita

794
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: takes commissions on flowers, candles, and tree sales. The only

795
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: difference is he's not republishing or stealing the obituaries verbatim

796
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 1: and pictures of dead people. He's sort of pulling information

797
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: from other obituaries, so there's a little bit of grayl

798
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: area and then profiting off of them. But still oftentimes

799
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: those obituaries are incorrect or have incomplete information.

800
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 2: Going back to the AI generated obituary about your mom.

801
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: It was shocking how they could cram so little information

802
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 2: into so many words. It just really was like so vague.

803
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 2: As a little experiment, I asked chat gpt to write

804
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 2: me a five hundred word obituary for a beloved pediatrician

805
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: from Richmond, and it was almost identical that flattening that

806
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: you talked about. I think, you know, this phenomenon does

807
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:21,280
Speaker 2: highlight a lot of the tech stuff that we've talked

808
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 2: about for years, and I think one of them is

809
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: how technology has this tendency to just flatten us, and,

810
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 2: like you said, for these obituaries, just harvest what's available,

811
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: make up what isn't, and then just churn out some

812
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: chum exactly.

813
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 1: One of the people also interviewed for that Fast Company

814
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: article talked about losing his father and his father had

815
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 1: been a service member, and in the AI generated version

816
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 1: of his dad's obituary, it is this like like they

817
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 1: made up awards that he never won. They made him

818
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 1: a more decorated veteran than he was, and he was like,

819
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: my dad was a great guy. But I can see

820
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: where the AI tried to like jazz up this story,

821
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: and I guess it sort of goes back to what

822
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: you were saying is that obituaries are for humans. They're

823
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 1: for the living to grieve people that we loved. They

824
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: are a record for how we lived, who we were,

825
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: how we loved, who loved us, who knew us. Writing

826
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: an obituary for somebody is an intimate, special act. It

827
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 1: is adding to the public record of who they were.

828
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 1: I don't want to live in a world where it's

829
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 1: just another way for a tech douche to make money.

830
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 1: I don't want to live in a world where my

831
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 1: mom's beautiful, colorful, full, dynamic, crazy life is just flattened

832
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: out so people like Paco La Clerk can get a

833
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: nickel in their bank account. That is not the world

834
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,720
Speaker 1: I want to live in. Grieving and death is hard enough.

835
00:48:57,320 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Like that judge said, who you read from it

836
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: violates basic ideas of decency. Somebody ought to do something.

837
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Paco la Clerk says, quote, I want to

838
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 1: use technology to become a disruptor of the industry, meeting

839
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: the funeral industry. Paco la Clerk, I don't know you,

840
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,080
Speaker 1: we have never met. I don't want my mom's death

841
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,040
Speaker 1: and my grieving process to be a pit stop on

842
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 1: your disruption of the funeral industry. I don't give a

843
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 1: fuck about your disruption. You have no right to be

844
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: exploiting grieving people using technology. This is what kills me

845
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: about this person is that the way that he speaks

846
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:40,719
Speaker 1: in these interviews, I would almost respect it more if

847
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:43,080
Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, I'm a scammer. It's a scam.

848
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: It's if I do it enough times, I make a

849
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,280
Speaker 1: quick buck. That's why I'm doing it. It's a financial scam.

850
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: At least I would be like, Okay, he's being honest.

851
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: The thing that kills me is that, because it has

852
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: to do with technology, he wants to exploit my dead

853
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,479
Speaker 1: mom and my family for money and also be seen

854
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 1: as a titan of industry for doing it. He wants

855
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 1: to be seen as a thought leader for doing it.

856
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: He is a scammer. If I took a picture of

857
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:13,360
Speaker 1: Pacola Clerk's dead family member and screen printed it on

858
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: a T shirt and started selling it down on Fourteenth Street,

859
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 1: you will call me a scammer. Right, that's a scam

860
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:20,640
Speaker 1: If I did that with that his permission. Because it

861
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: involves technology, he believes that it is some kind of

862
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 1: a disruption, as opposed to what it is which is

863
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: a violation. And I refuse to live in a world

864
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: where somebody can exploit me and my mom and my

865
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:36,359
Speaker 1: family for money for their financial gain against my will,

866
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,279
Speaker 1: without my permission, and also have the gall to see

867
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,920
Speaker 1: himself as a goddamn visionary not on my watch. So again,

868
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:45,399
Speaker 1: this is not gonna be the last time we talked

869
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: about Pacola, Clerk, Paco. Look, Clerk, I am your new

870
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 1: biggest fan. We're going to talk about you every fucking week. Uh,

871
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:53,400
Speaker 1: get used.

872
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 2: To it, all right, bridget So how do you want

873
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: to land this plane? Do you want to circle back

874
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 2: to your mom, you want to talk about your dad,

875
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,799
Speaker 2: You want to share what you've learned about going through

876
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: this process that might help listeners who are either going

877
00:51:10,200 --> 00:51:13,560
Speaker 2: through it or maybe aren't going through it yet but

878
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 2: see it coming down the pike.

879
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what can I say? I would say

880
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 1: everybody listening to this, if you have parents in your life,

881
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: loved ones, older folks. My mom died unexpectedly and none

882
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: of her affairs were in order, I'll put it that way,

883
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:38,839
Speaker 1: and it's made everything much harder. And yeah, I would say,

884
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: if you are avoiding a tough conversation with your mom

885
00:51:41,920 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 1: or your dad or your aunt about what their end

886
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,680
Speaker 1: of life plans look like. Have the conversation, because you're

887
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: going to be dealing with it one way or the other.

888
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 1: One route is it's gonna be hard regardless. So you

889
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 1: got to decide if you want to have that conversation

890
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,759
Speaker 1: and get affairs an order now and have it be

891
00:51:59,400 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: regular hard or hard hard. So that's one. So end

892
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 1: of life care plans, whatever needs to be arranged. I

893
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,399
Speaker 1: really implore people to make those arrangements while you can,

894
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: because it's very difficult to make them otherwise. Take it

895
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: from me. Yeah, I would also say, like I am

896
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: still very much in it. If I sound not like myself,

897
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: it's because I am not myself and I don't know

898
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:30,279
Speaker 1: if myself is ever coming back. This might be a

899
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 1: permanent change for me. And yeah, it's just as hard

900
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,840
Speaker 1: as everything was. I think the feeling of having my

901
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: grief be exploited, Like I don't think I ever really

902
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 1: got to privately grieve my mom and grieve my dad,

903
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: to be honest with you, and like really sort of

904
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:56,879
Speaker 1: grieve what happened to my family. There's been a real

905
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: lack of intimacy. I can't quite describe the feeling of

906
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: being in like a digital fish bowl while you're going

907
00:53:03,120 --> 00:53:07,719
Speaker 1: through something as hard and intimate as grief. It was

908
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 1: really invasive. I have to say, like I really kind

909
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: of shut down, you know, when those AI obituaries hit

910
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,479
Speaker 1: social media. I was not yet ready to talk about

911
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,799
Speaker 1: what was happening, and I had to talk about it

912
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: because people were texting me about it and asking me

913
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,360
Speaker 1: about it because of these obituaries and so like, I

914
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: didn't even want to post my own kind of private

915
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: tribute to my mom because of all of this. I like,

916
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: I really still haven't because the time that I would

917
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: have done that, I was dealing with this, right I

918
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 1: was like trying to find where these plate, where these

919
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,640
Speaker 1: AI obituary pirates were based, and trying to get things

920
00:53:50,640 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: taken down off of the Internet and all of that. Right,

921
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: so I felt very exposed and it was very hard.

922
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: I am still very much in it. So this is

923
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: not the sort of like ending of like and now

924
00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:06,239
Speaker 1: everything's okay. Everything is terrible for me and I don't

925
00:54:06,280 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: know when it's going to get better. But I would

926
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: say the thing that I have learned from all of

927
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,759
Speaker 1: this is that when we talk about things like AI.

928
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,759
Speaker 1: It really does matter, right, like obituaries matter. Some things

929
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: are for humans, some things are There are things that

930
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:25,720
Speaker 1: connect us to our humanity, there are things that connect

931
00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: us to the experience of being human. All of us

932
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: is going to die. I'm so sorry to say this,

933
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: but everyone listening right now, if you have not already,

934
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 1: you are going to be burying a parent or someone

935
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,960
Speaker 1: that you know and love. And that is a universal

936
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 1: that is something that connects us and makes us all human.

937
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: And so we got to decide whether this, this thing

938
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 1: that connects us to our humanity, is a thing that

939
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,040
Speaker 1: we are going to allow tech companies and tech leaders

940
00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:55,280
Speaker 1: to exploit to make money for themselves against our will.

941
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,040
Speaker 1: And I think that this is I am. I am.

942
00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,320
Speaker 1: If I have ever put a a line in the sand,

943
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: I am doing it now. We have to fight this.

944
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to live in a world where when you

945
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: lose somebody this is acceptable, let alone commonplace. I will

946
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: not stand for it. I don't think any of us

947
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:14,919
Speaker 1: should stand for this. Nobody deserves to live in that world.

948
00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:16,640
Speaker 1: That is not a world that I want to live in.

949
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:21,040
Speaker 2: All right, All right, well, so are we going to

950
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: be back here again next week to talk about. Uh,

951
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 2: let's see what's up next on the agenda. Poco Laclerk.

952
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 1: I'll say this, Pascal, Paco Laclerk, get in touch with me.

953
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: I want to hear from you. I want to talk

954
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,120
Speaker 1: to you. I know I'm going to be on your

955
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:43,000
Speaker 1: radar soon. However, if you come to me, we can

956
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 1: deal with this. I'd have you on the show. We

957
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 1: can talk whatever you want to do, but this is

958
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: sort of your window. I'm going to be a problem

959
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:53,239
Speaker 1: for you. Mark my words. If anybody knows him, you

960
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,160
Speaker 1: can send him this episode. I'm going to be a

961
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 1: problem for you one way or another. Make it easy

962
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,320
Speaker 1: for yourself by getting in touch with me. I'll just

963
00:55:59,400 --> 00:55:59,879
Speaker 1: leave it there.

964
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 2: So, yeah, Bridget, thanks for coming and recording this. I

965
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: know listeners will I don't want to say be happy

966
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,520
Speaker 2: to hear from you, given the subject matter, but listeners

967
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 2: have been asking, and so it's and I know it

968
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: was difficult, but I do really hope that I don't know,

969
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:23,440
Speaker 2: recording this episode maybe helps you start to feel a

970
00:56:23,480 --> 00:56:27,879
Speaker 2: little bit normal. You know, you mentioned that you don't

971
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 2: know if you're ever coming back, and you know we're

972
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 2: always changing all the time, and something like this I'm

973
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 2: sure would profoundly change a person. But you'll get through it,

974
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:43,399
Speaker 2: and I hope that you know, we can all get

975
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 2: through it together. And I know you're not planning. We're

976
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 2: not coming back into regular production right now, but hopefully,

977
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:53,640
Speaker 2: hopefully we'll get back there when you're ready.

978
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for going on this journey with me, Mike.

979
00:56:57,600 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 2: My mom loved you, and there were so many things

980
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 2: about your mom. I maybe got to know like one

981
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: percent of things about your mom. But the first time

982
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,600
Speaker 2: that we met, you know, this is the public health

983
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 2: nerd in me. We talked about childhood let exposure because

984
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 2: that is some research that I did while I was

985
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 2: in grad school. And it turned out that throughout her

986
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 2: career she had worked with the State of Virginia or

987
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,160
Speaker 2: the Virginia Department of Public Health to really advocate for

988
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 2: and get enacted a set of programs to reduce the

989
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: prevalence of childhood let exposure for kids in the state

990
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 2: of Virginia, which is so important. And you know, I'm

991
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:46,480
Speaker 2: sure that that made a huge difference in the lives

992
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: of hundreds of thousands of children. So, you know, just

993
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 2: just one little detail of this amazing woman and I

994
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: really feel grateful that I got to meet her.

995
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: I thought you were going to tell the egg story. So,

996
00:57:58,720 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: like Mike notes, I love eggs. I'm obsessed with eggs,

997
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: and my mom also really loved eggs. And we go

998
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: to dinner, so it's like I think it was just

999
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: was it you? Me and her. We were at dinner

1000
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 1: and she ordered like ten plates of devils.

1001
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 2: They were good, and she just kept ordering more plates

1002
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: of deviled eggs and we kept eating them, so like

1003
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 2: eating them, just kept eating eggs.

1004
00:58:23,360 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: I was in heaven and I didn't think anything was

1005
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,640
Speaker 1: weird because I love eggs and I know my mom

1006
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 1: loves eggs, So like, had you not said something going

1007
00:58:30,880 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 1: to be I was like, what do you mean it's

1008
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: not normal to eat twelve deviled eggs in a city? God,

1009
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: I'm also was really, I I don't want that will

1010
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:40,800
Speaker 1: be here. If it's just like a free for all

1011
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 1: with me telling stories of my mom, I could. I

1012
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:44,760
Speaker 1: could do it for my dad too. But like she

1013
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: really was like a great person. She had a great laugh.

1014
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,240
Speaker 1: There was God, I would kill to hear my mom's

1015
00:58:51,280 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: laugh again, Like it was like music. She had a

1016
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,640
Speaker 1: really and she was easy to laugh that was My

1017
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 1: favorite quality about my mom is that she was really smiley,

1018
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 1: easy to laugh. It's something I aspire to and I

1019
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: hope it's something that I carrie in her and she

1020
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 1: The other thing about her is that she loved her granddaughter.

1021
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,080
Speaker 1: It is such a tragedy that she did not get

1022
00:59:14,080 --> 00:59:17,440
Speaker 1: to meet her newest grandkids because my brother and his

1023
00:59:17,520 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: wife had twins, so there's two new ones out there.

1024
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 1: But she had a really special relationship with my niece

1025
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: and she spent a lot of time with her, and

1026
00:59:28,320 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 1: my niece will will laugh in a way that my

1027
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: mom did. That kind of gets me. I see a

1028
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: lot of my mom in my niece and she's only four,

1029
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: but she'll say things or she'll laugh in a kind

1030
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:43,240
Speaker 1: of way, and I really it's like almost scary how

1031
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: I can see my mom shining through my niece. And

1032
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,200
Speaker 1: I hope she I know, I hope she haunts me.

1033
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 1: I just like would do anything to just talk to her,

1034
00:59:53,560 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 1: like one more time. So yeah, like I know, people

1035
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: have all different kinds of relationships with their family, but

1036
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's hard. It's very hard to lose them.

1037
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 1: And whether you lose them because they pass away or

1038
01:00:15,600 --> 01:00:17,360
Speaker 1: you lose them because they're not in your life for

1039
01:00:17,480 --> 01:00:20,600
Speaker 1: another reason, or whether you lose them because they're like

1040
01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:23,400
Speaker 1: my dad dealing with dementia and you've kind of lost

1041
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: them even though they're still here. It's just so hard.

1042
01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 1: So yeah, I hate to end it on a bummer,

1043
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 1: but this is what it means to be a human

1044
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: and everybody has to go through this. I'm not the

1045
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:39,880
Speaker 1: first person to go through this. People listening will all

1046
01:00:39,880 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 1: go through this in some capacity. And you know, as

1047
01:00:43,520 --> 01:00:46,720
Speaker 1: hard as it is, we don't have to tolerate it

1048
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 1: being made harder in these ways that pull us apart

1049
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: from who we are as humans, Like this is human,

1050
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,520
Speaker 1: this is greef. It's ugly, it's horrible, it's messy already.

1051
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:00,760
Speaker 1: It doesn't also have to be a way that we

1052
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 1: get exploited. Got a story about an interesting thing in tech,

1053
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 1: or just want to say hi? You can read us

1054
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 1: at Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find

1055
01:01:14,280 --> 01:01:17,120
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are

1056
01:01:17,120 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Todd.

1057
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed. Creative Jonathan Strickland

1058
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and

1059
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almato is our contributing producer. I'm your host,

1060
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,520
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, rate

1061
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,

1062
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 1: check out the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

1063
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 1: get your podcasts.