WEBVTT - Carbon Capture at Rock-Bottom Prices 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:23.196 Pushkin, How did spend in your childhood in Southeast India? 0:00:23.196 --> 0:00:27.236 Ef fact that we think about climate change. 0:00:26.036 --> 0:00:28.116 The place where I grew up, you know, just had 0:00:28.156 --> 0:00:31.156 to have had their path. When things got dry, they 0:00:31.156 --> 0:00:33.876 got really dry, and when things got wet, they got 0:00:33.916 --> 0:00:36.796 really wet. You know, the monster's got more and more extreme. 0:00:37.036 --> 0:00:40.076 The droughts got more and more extreme over time. And 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:42.876 it's a pretty normal thing to show up to school 0:00:42.876 --> 0:00:44.836 one day and your friend just like doesn't come to 0:00:44.876 --> 0:00:46.676 school for like six months at a time because they're 0:00:46.756 --> 0:00:49.876 helping their parents recover from a flood that happened in 0:00:50.036 --> 0:00:53.596 months ago. And it's a pretty common thing for me. 0:00:54.636 --> 0:00:57.156 You know, I didn't know it was climate change growing up, honestly, 0:00:57.236 --> 0:00:58.956 Like it was just like a thing that happened. 0:00:59.156 --> 0:01:00.036 It was just climate. 0:01:00.156 --> 0:01:03.116 That's what nature was, and things just got worse and 0:01:03.156 --> 0:01:05.636 worse every year, and that's just how things are. As 0:01:05.916 --> 0:01:07.756 I grew up and started learning a lot more, and 0:01:07.756 --> 0:01:10.796 it started connecting the dots. What I realized was that 0:01:11.436 --> 0:01:13.876 the folks who are facing the worst impacts of climate 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:17.876 change are the ones who are least educated about it 0:01:17.916 --> 0:01:21.436 and then the most vulnerable to it already. And I 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:23.996 think That's what I think gives me a lot of 0:01:24.036 --> 0:01:28.396 motivation and drive that fundamentally, this problem is an unfair 0:01:28.436 --> 0:01:31.956 one where it's created and where the impacts are most felt. 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:34.756 People ask me like, how did you decide to work 0:01:34.796 --> 0:01:36.756 on climate? How did you decide specifically to work on 0:01:36.756 --> 0:01:39.596 carbon removal? But for me, it was a no brainer. 0:01:39.636 --> 0:01:41.236 Of course I'm going to work on this, and of 0:01:41.236 --> 0:01:44.916 course this is the most scalable way to solve the problem. 0:01:44.956 --> 0:01:48.276 Being an engineer myself, like building these cost models so forth, 0:01:48.316 --> 0:01:50.876 it's like it's actually possible. So why didn't we actually 0:01:50.916 --> 0:01:52.996 go about doing it? It was just a matter of 0:01:52.996 --> 0:01:56.276 putting together right team and right partners and going on 0:01:56.316 --> 0:02:03.036 the journey. 0:02:03.156 --> 0:02:05.476 I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem? The 0:02:05.516 --> 0:02:07.356 show where I talk to people who are trying to 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:12.316 make technological progress. My guest today is Shashank Samala Sschank 0:02:12.436 --> 0:02:16.516 is the co founder and CEO of Airloom. Shashank's problem 0:02:16.556 --> 0:02:21.596 is this, can you use crushed up rocks, specifically limestone, 0:02:22.036 --> 0:02:26.276 to permanently suck carbon out of the atmosphere? And crucially 0:02:26.716 --> 0:02:29.596 can you do it for one hundred dollars per ton 0:02:29.676 --> 0:02:33.196 of carbon? To that end Heirloom has built a pilot 0:02:33.196 --> 0:02:36.956 plant in California near its headquarters, and is currently working 0:02:36.996 --> 0:02:40.236 on a much larger plant in Louisiana. By the way, 0:02:40.596 --> 0:02:43.356 I learned about Shoshank from my conversation a few weeks 0:02:43.396 --> 0:02:46.316 ago with Nan Ransahoff. If you missed that one and 0:02:46.476 --> 0:02:49.076 want to hear more about carbon removal, you might want 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:53.396 to check that out. Shachank began his career in manufacturing. 0:02:53.796 --> 0:02:57.676 He wasn't an environmental scientist or a geologist, so to 0:02:57.756 --> 0:03:00.196 start I asked him about rocks. 0:03:00.596 --> 0:03:03.276 We love rocks. I've dedicated my life to rocks. 0:03:03.636 --> 0:03:05.116 When did you discover rocks? 0:03:05.596 --> 0:03:08.596 When I realized that carbon capture is like the thing 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:11.196 to do, Not everyone has realized it yet, but like 0:03:11.436 --> 0:03:15.716 people will. In that journey, I started just reading papers 0:03:15.716 --> 0:03:18.396 and books at night, and you know, it was basically, 0:03:19.396 --> 0:03:21.516 what are the natural things that I already doing this? It's 0:03:21.756 --> 0:03:22.916 biomass and rocks. 0:03:23.236 --> 0:03:24.716 Basically plants and rocks. 0:03:24.956 --> 0:03:25.756 Yeah, exactly. 0:03:26.476 --> 0:03:28.236 When you start looking at this, it does seem like 0:03:28.236 --> 0:03:32.076 there's sort of three very crudely kind of modes. Right, 0:03:32.116 --> 0:03:36.276 people are using fans, plants, and rocks, right, Yeah, Why 0:03:36.276 --> 0:03:38.516 did you wind up ruling out fans and plants. 0:03:39.676 --> 0:03:42.676 So that's a great question. I think at the beginning, 0:03:43.196 --> 0:03:45.876 when I first got started, I wasn't married to any approach. 0:03:46.236 --> 0:03:49.876 I come from a manufacturing background. I was making electronics 0:03:49.876 --> 0:03:51.916 for satellites and robots and so forth, and you know, 0:03:51.956 --> 0:03:55.876 manufacturing is superkin margins and you have to understand where 0:03:55.876 --> 0:03:58.196 your costs are. And for me, when I first started 0:03:58.196 --> 0:04:01.236 looking at this problem, it was very clear that at 0:04:01.236 --> 0:04:03.436 the end of the day, what matters has cost costs 0:04:03.436 --> 0:04:06.476 pertanos two. You know, it's not like we're designing an 0:04:06.516 --> 0:04:10.276 amazingly beautiful car for people to drive around. All the 0:04:10.316 --> 0:04:13.276 matters is how many molecules of CO two in the 0:04:13.316 --> 0:04:17.156 air are and how cost effectively you remove it, how. 0:04:16.996 --> 0:04:20.236 Many molecules of CO two per dollar you can get exactly. 0:04:20.436 --> 0:04:23.316 So I was just so obsessed about, like, you know, 0:04:23.356 --> 0:04:26.516 what is the absolute simplest way you can solve this problem. 0:04:26.876 --> 0:04:29.676 And there's a bunch of other folks who are using 0:04:29.716 --> 0:04:32.716 synthetic ways to you know, using fans and so forth 0:04:32.836 --> 0:04:36.796 to pull carbon, And I think the best way to 0:04:36.876 --> 0:04:39.636 approach an engineering problem is just like what is the 0:04:40.356 --> 0:04:43.156 bare minimum you need and then add complexity from there. 0:04:43.836 --> 0:04:47.156 So why does this idea of like cheapest absolute bare minimum, 0:04:47.196 --> 0:04:48.556 why does that lead you to rocks? 0:04:49.236 --> 0:04:52.596 Rocks basically have a couple of principles, right, Like, if 0:04:52.596 --> 0:04:56.156 you start with the idea that you need CO two 0:04:56.316 --> 0:05:00.556 to be permanently sequestered so you know it doesn't decomposs 0:05:00.596 --> 0:05:04.676 back into the atmosphere, you need a sponge With rocks, 0:05:04.716 --> 0:05:07.636 it's the CO two only goes one way and it 0:05:07.636 --> 0:05:11.036 doesn't respire back you, so it doesn't decompos and they're 0:05:11.076 --> 0:05:14.836 super cheap. Earth has already spent billions of years creating 0:05:14.836 --> 0:05:18.116 this sort of crystal instruction in this geochemical mineral that 0:05:18.276 --> 0:05:21.956 is thirsty for CO two, and it helped balance the 0:05:21.956 --> 0:05:25.036 CO two in the atmosphere, So it already paid this 0:05:25.196 --> 0:05:28.756 energy penalty to make this rock that is super abundant 0:05:28.796 --> 0:05:31.196 and cheap. So the mineral the view using it's you know, 0:05:31.236 --> 0:05:33.476 thirty to forty bucks a ton, and we can reuse 0:05:33.516 --> 0:05:35.796 it over and over again. So you know, if you 0:05:35.796 --> 0:05:38.316 can reuse it s a hundred cycles, you can get 0:05:38.316 --> 0:05:41.876 the cost per ton for the rock down to twenty 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:42.436 thirty cents. 0:05:42.876 --> 0:05:45.476 So you land on limestone. Right, you haven't said limestone, 0:05:45.476 --> 0:05:48.516 but you're talking about limes. Ztone, tell me about limestone. 0:05:48.716 --> 0:05:54.076 Yeah, So limestone is this amazingly beautiful chemical. It's a 0:05:54.156 --> 0:05:57.516 naturally occurring mineral. There is four percent of the Earth's 0:05:57.556 --> 0:06:01.116 crust is made up of limestone, and the chemical formula 0:06:01.116 --> 0:06:04.716 for it is calcium carbonate, and Earth produced a lot 0:06:04.756 --> 0:06:08.276 of this over you know, billions of years to partly 0:06:08.356 --> 0:06:11.716 to help balance the CO two in the atmosphere. It's 0:06:11.756 --> 0:06:13.836 like if you're a rock climber, it's a chalk that is, 0:06:13.876 --> 0:06:18.196 it's a carbonate limestone. It's it's incredibly abundant, basically looks 0:06:18.236 --> 0:06:19.396 like white powder. 0:06:19.636 --> 0:06:22.836 So that's limestone. It has carbon dioxide in it already, 0:06:22.916 --> 0:06:25.116 so it's already done the thing you want to do 0:06:25.156 --> 0:06:27.036 Exactly when you're figuring out what's going to be your 0:06:27.036 --> 0:06:28.716 play for air capture, like how do you get to 0:06:28.756 --> 0:06:31.916 where you wind up? Like you see that limestone has 0:06:31.956 --> 0:06:35.116 already done this thing. Limestone already has the carbon, but 0:06:35.196 --> 0:06:37.236 that's not what you want, Like you want to capture 0:06:37.276 --> 0:06:38.596 more carbon exactly. 0:06:38.836 --> 0:06:42.156 I think carbon removal and directory capture. It's all a 0:06:42.476 --> 0:06:46.836 energy optimization play. Yeah, how do you spend as little 0:06:46.956 --> 0:06:50.716 energy as possible to remove a bunch of cooto molecules 0:06:50.716 --> 0:06:54.116 from the air, and you know, and there's a lot 0:06:54.116 --> 0:06:56.636 of different directions, a lot of different philosophies on how 0:06:56.676 --> 0:07:01.036 you approach this problem. And our thesis was, you need 0:07:01.076 --> 0:07:03.796 a sponge to remove the CO two, and there's an 0:07:03.916 --> 0:07:07.276 energy that goes into capturing the YOU two, and there's 0:07:07.276 --> 0:07:11.196 an energy that goes into releasing that CO two so 0:07:11.236 --> 0:07:14.516 that we can capture more CO two with that sponge. 0:07:14.596 --> 0:07:17.036 Right, you got to capture the CO two from the air, 0:07:17.076 --> 0:07:18.916 and then you've got to do something with it to 0:07:19.516 --> 0:07:22.556 basically stick it in the ground for ten thousand years exactly. 0:07:22.636 --> 0:07:26.196 So it's a two step process. There's capture and storage. Right. 0:07:26.836 --> 0:07:30.396 All the different angles are doing some version of that, right, 0:07:30.476 --> 0:07:32.276 those two step process exactly. 0:07:32.356 --> 0:07:36.276 It's a capture and a release, capture and regeneration. And 0:07:36.316 --> 0:07:39.596 the whole play is how do you minimize energy in 0:07:39.596 --> 0:07:40.356 both of those steps. 0:07:40.876 --> 0:07:44.276 Yeah, because the energy basically winds up being cost, right, 0:07:44.356 --> 0:07:47.796 like the cost the key input ends up being energy. 0:07:47.516 --> 0:07:50.796 Exactly right, exactly right. It's you know, whether it's in 0:07:50.836 --> 0:07:53.436 the form of capital equipment, whether it's in the form 0:07:53.476 --> 0:07:57.636 of literal electrons going in, it's energy. At the end 0:07:57.636 --> 0:08:00.636 of the day. Is the thing to optimize around, and 0:08:01.316 --> 0:08:04.356 so for us when we looked around, that was not 0:08:04.396 --> 0:08:06.796 a PhD in material science when I started this, right, like, 0:08:06.836 --> 0:08:09.676 I come from a manufacturing background, and I literally just 0:08:09.716 --> 0:08:12.476 like picked up my chemistry books from high school and 0:08:12.716 --> 0:08:17.276 reread them to you know, first getting started and basically like, 0:08:17.316 --> 0:08:20.956 if this is the framework and you're trying to optimize 0:08:21.116 --> 0:08:24.076 energy on both sides, first you start with the capture step. Okay, 0:08:24.116 --> 0:08:27.516 well what already does this naturally? Right? And there's a 0:08:27.516 --> 0:08:30.756 bunch of carbonates, calcin carbonate, machnicin carbonate, and so forth. 0:08:31.076 --> 0:08:34.596 And we ended up with calcin carbonate limestone because it 0:08:34.676 --> 0:08:38.836 needs the lowest amount of energy to capture CO two, okay, 0:08:39.556 --> 0:08:44.796 just thermodynamically, and it's thermodynamically favored. It's so thirsty for 0:08:44.876 --> 0:08:47.756 COO two, Like if you figure out a way to 0:08:47.876 --> 0:08:50.276 break it to release that COO two and you put 0:08:50.316 --> 0:08:52.716 that on your desk, it just starts gobbling up COO 0:08:52.796 --> 0:08:54.396 two molecules whether you like it or not. 0:08:54.516 --> 0:08:58.076 So it's very energy favorable for step one exactly capture, 0:08:58.836 --> 0:09:00.796 but it doesn't want to release it once it has 0:09:00.796 --> 0:09:02.596 it right as you put it out. There's two steps. 0:09:02.596 --> 0:09:03.356 There's two steps. 0:09:03.396 --> 0:09:05.916 Now you've got this limestone full of carbon, but you 0:09:05.996 --> 0:09:07.556 got to get it to release it. And it does 0:09:07.596 --> 0:09:10.636 seem like for you that's the hard part. That's certainly 0:09:10.636 --> 0:09:11.996 the energy intensive part. 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:14.396 That is certainly the energy intensive part. Not just for us, 0:09:14.476 --> 0:09:16.876 it's actually basically everyone else. 0:09:17.556 --> 0:09:20.236 Oh you mean, for all of the carbon capture and removal. 0:09:20.276 --> 0:09:21.956 It's actually the release is the hard part. 0:09:22.196 --> 0:09:25.036 The release is the most energy intensive part. And when 0:09:25.036 --> 0:09:29.236 we first picked limestone, we liked the way of releasing 0:09:29.236 --> 0:09:33.756 CO two in the second step because cement industry already 0:09:33.756 --> 0:09:37.396 does this, cement and lime industry. They take limestone, they 0:09:37.396 --> 0:09:40.716 break it into calcium oxide CO two put the cootwo 0:09:40.756 --> 0:09:43.476 into the air, but they take the calcium oxide, put 0:09:43.476 --> 0:09:44.756 a bunch of other stuff to it, and turn it 0:09:44.796 --> 0:09:45.356 into cement. 0:09:45.916 --> 0:09:48.036 And just to be clear, like let's just pause there, 0:09:48.076 --> 0:09:50.876 because this is a giant global industry that in fact 0:09:50.956 --> 0:09:53.036 is a huge emitter for this reason, right fact, the 0:09:53.116 --> 0:09:56.516 key input to cement is limestone. And the basic thing 0:09:56.556 --> 0:09:59.756 you do when you're making cement is you put limestone 0:09:59.756 --> 0:10:02.236 in a kiln, make it very hot, and you just 0:10:02.316 --> 0:10:05.316 burn off the CO two and then you're left with lime, 0:10:05.556 --> 0:10:09.556 which is whatever, it's calcium oxide something. Yeah, So there 0:10:09.596 --> 0:10:12.596 is a question I have there, which is like, there's 0:10:12.596 --> 0:10:15.556 already a giant global industry of people doing this. Yes, 0:10:15.876 --> 0:10:18.956 would it not be more efficient to just capture that 0:10:19.156 --> 0:10:22.436 CO two that they're already releasing literally today in great 0:10:22.516 --> 0:10:24.316 quantities and stick that in the ground. 0:10:24.876 --> 0:10:27.996 We should absolutely do that, And there's many companies already 0:10:28.036 --> 0:10:31.196 doing that as well. And that's that's called points source capture, 0:10:31.476 --> 0:10:35.556 So where you're essentially avoiding emissions from a cement plant 0:10:35.676 --> 0:10:38.356 or national gas power plan fitting the CO two into. 0:10:38.236 --> 0:10:40.716 The air, and then you get to sell the cement, right. 0:10:40.756 --> 0:10:44.076 I feel like the economics there are much more favorable. 0:10:45.076 --> 0:10:48.956 Well, you're selling cement, but it's actually an added cost 0:10:49.196 --> 0:10:50.876 to capture that CO two. 0:10:50.796 --> 0:10:52.956 Right, sure, So I mean ideally you could sell the 0:10:52.996 --> 0:10:55.436 cement and sell the carbon capture and removal. 0:10:55.676 --> 0:10:58.676 Yeah, it's a different technical method. It's it's points source capture, 0:10:58.796 --> 0:11:00.716 and there's a bunch of folks already working on it. 0:11:01.196 --> 0:11:04.036 What we're focused on is removing COEO two that's already 0:11:04.036 --> 0:11:04.516 in the air. 0:11:05.076 --> 0:11:08.996 Are you assuming that like in X years ten or something, 0:11:09.956 --> 0:11:12.316 everybody making cement's going to do that? Anyways? And you 0:11:12.356 --> 0:11:13.796 want to do a marginal benefit. 0:11:14.396 --> 0:11:16.796 So if you look across four thousands CEM in plants 0:11:16.796 --> 0:11:19.396 that already exist on the planet, there's a bunch of 0:11:19.476 --> 0:11:22.396 other infrastructure that needs to be in place for points 0:11:22.396 --> 0:11:25.036 source capture to happen. There's a bunch of cemen plants 0:11:25.036 --> 0:11:29.196 that are close to where energy is cheap and underground 0:11:29.236 --> 0:11:32.116 storage is available, where they can do points source capture, 0:11:32.156 --> 0:11:34.836 and we should absolutely do it. But there's also many 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:38.036 many cimon plants, thousands of cimon plants that are not 0:11:38.236 --> 0:11:41.556 near where a COE to underground storage is available or 0:11:41.676 --> 0:11:44.276 energy is not available. To actually capture that CO two 0:11:44.276 --> 0:11:48.196 from from the flue gas that it would be very expensive. 0:11:48.196 --> 0:11:50.396 You would have to transport that CO two hundreds of 0:11:50.396 --> 0:11:53.236 miles away and that costs a lot of money, and 0:11:53.796 --> 0:11:56.996 effectively it becomes a cost benefit analysis where it could 0:11:57.036 --> 0:11:59.636 actually be cheaper to remove the CO two than putting 0:11:59.676 --> 0:12:01.276 a point source capture on top of it. 0:12:01.516 --> 0:12:04.676 So okay, so that's why not do it with cement 0:12:04.756 --> 0:12:07.076 or not just do it with cement exactly. So you 0:12:07.196 --> 0:12:11.196 have this idea, what are the obvious problems with it? 0:12:11.196 --> 0:12:13.316 When you come up with the idea, what are the like, oh, 0:12:13.356 --> 0:12:15.036 here's why it's going to be difficult. 0:12:15.876 --> 0:12:18.236 Here's why it's going to be difficult. So I think 0:12:18.716 --> 0:12:21.196 at the beginning, you know, when before the start started, 0:12:21.236 --> 0:12:24.716 and I think people knew that rocks can capture CO two, 0:12:25.916 --> 0:12:31.356 but the problem was it was too slow. You know, geochemically, naturally, 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:34.476 it would take maybe six months or a year to 0:12:34.516 --> 0:12:37.076 fully saturate itself with CO two in the air. So 0:12:37.116 --> 0:12:38.516 if you put that on your desk, it would take 0:12:38.516 --> 0:12:41.476 that long. And if you put that into a cost model, 0:12:41.636 --> 0:12:44.476 you pretty quickly realize that there's just no way this 0:12:44.556 --> 0:12:47.036 can get to one hundred bucks a ton long term. 0:12:46.676 --> 0:12:49.396 Just because you've got to have like essentially a factory, 0:12:49.556 --> 0:12:52.356 and all that's happening at your factory is rock is 0:12:52.396 --> 0:12:54.196 sitting there for a year exactly. 0:12:54.236 --> 0:12:58.076 You need gobs and gobs of limestone, yea, And I 0:12:58.076 --> 0:13:00.636 mean think of you know, thousands of scure kilometers to 0:13:01.076 --> 0:13:01.836 capture you. 0:13:01.756 --> 0:13:02.716 Know, not gonna work. 0:13:02.876 --> 0:13:05.476 It's not gonna work. So, you know, it was pretty 0:13:05.516 --> 0:13:08.756 clear from the beginning that this thing needs to be 0:13:09.316 --> 0:13:12.596 at least ten times faster, if not more. And at 0:13:12.636 --> 0:13:15.436 the beginning, we're not sure whether this is even possible. 0:13:15.516 --> 0:13:18.476 And you know, we just had a few scientists just 0:13:18.636 --> 0:13:21.756 playing around with a few different things, and they figured 0:13:21.756 --> 0:13:24.996 out how to basically give it superpowers to pull carbon 0:13:25.036 --> 0:13:29.076 from the air faster. And over the last been seven years, 0:13:29.076 --> 0:13:30.996 where you know, we started at six months, and we 0:13:31.596 --> 0:13:34.196 first went to you know, three months, and then you know, 0:13:34.196 --> 0:13:36.076 it went down to a month, and then it went 0:13:36.116 --> 0:13:38.396 down to two weeks and five days and four days. 0:13:38.476 --> 0:13:43.196 We're way down below that today. And what's been interesting 0:13:43.356 --> 0:13:46.796 is people will always ask me, why is this so 0:13:46.876 --> 0:13:49.916 important for you to cycle time? And it's so important 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:52.676 because the difference between ten days and five days is 0:13:53.116 --> 0:13:56.316 for the same amount of capital equipment, I can get 0:13:56.316 --> 0:13:59.396 two x to through put right, and the costs come 0:13:59.476 --> 0:14:03.876 down just dramatically. So that's been our biggest lever and 0:14:03.956 --> 0:14:07.356 it's been amazing. Every twelve to eighteen months we figured 0:14:07.356 --> 0:14:08.996 out a way to make it about two ks faster. 0:14:09.476 --> 0:14:12.436 I think that's where a lot of optimism comes from 0:14:12.516 --> 0:14:13.276 for cost reduction. 0:14:14.556 --> 0:14:17.516 Is there one particular improvement that would be interesting to 0:14:17.516 --> 0:14:20.076 talk about, one particular thing you figured out or your 0:14:20.116 --> 0:14:21.556 team figured out to go faster. 0:14:22.716 --> 0:14:25.836 There's about fifteen to twenty different parameters internally, you know, 0:14:25.916 --> 0:14:29.596 there's like particle size, particle size distribution, the porosity of 0:14:29.596 --> 0:14:31.636 the particle, the surface area of each particle. 0:14:32.036 --> 0:14:34.276 So these are just physical traits. You sort of mash 0:14:34.356 --> 0:14:36.356 up the rock in different ways, grind it up one 0:14:36.396 --> 0:14:37.596 way or grind it up another way. 0:14:37.756 --> 0:14:39.716 Yeah, so we actually grind it up only once at 0:14:39.716 --> 0:14:41.756 the beginning, when we first get the feed stock from 0:14:41.756 --> 0:14:45.556 the mine. But how you run the process, you know 0:14:45.596 --> 0:14:48.956 what temperature and what residents time you have in the oven. 0:14:49.076 --> 0:14:50.916 You know, it's sort of like when you're baking cookies 0:14:50.916 --> 0:14:52.836 in an oven, right, Like there's a few levers you have, 0:14:53.356 --> 0:14:56.076 and it actually turns out they have a big implication 0:14:56.156 --> 0:14:59.196 on how the physical properties of these things are. 0:15:00.156 --> 0:15:02.996 But it's not chemical. You're not like adding chemical inputs. 0:15:03.036 --> 0:15:06.436 You're just monking with the limestone in different ways to 0:15:06.476 --> 0:15:11.716 get you know, a magnitude of it's. 0:15:11.156 --> 0:15:15.556 Pretty insane, Like it's the science is a lot more complicated. 0:15:15.556 --> 0:15:19.716 But there's a specific parameter space that the nature really 0:15:19.756 --> 0:15:24.316 loves limestone to be in, and we're constantly experimenting with 0:15:24.636 --> 0:15:26.756 how you get into that tight space. 0:15:28.196 --> 0:15:30.076 When you say nature loves that, you mean that makes 0:15:30.076 --> 0:15:34.476 it particularly eager to absorb carbon dioxide. 0:15:34.076 --> 0:15:38.956 Exactly Yeah, humidity. For example, we love humidity. It actually 0:15:38.956 --> 0:15:41.356 forms a thin layer of water on top of lime 0:15:42.076 --> 0:15:45.036 and it makes it even more thirsty for COO two, 0:15:45.276 --> 0:15:47.916 And all these things kind of work together. And our 0:15:47.956 --> 0:15:51.036 technology is all about how do you keep this rock 0:15:51.156 --> 0:15:54.316 in that tight space so we can capture you know, 0:15:54.396 --> 0:15:56.276 CO two about one hundred times faster. 0:15:56.196 --> 0:15:59.596 That tight possibility space, that tight space of possible, and. 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:01.636 As cheaply as possible. Right, Like, we're not adding chemicals, 0:16:01.676 --> 0:16:04.836 we're not adding catalysts, just a bunch of rocks sitting 0:16:04.876 --> 0:16:05.396 on trace. 0:16:06.116 --> 0:16:08.316 Let's talk about the facility. So you built this facility 0:16:08.916 --> 0:16:12.596 in Tracy, California, right east of San Francisco. That's sort 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:15.036 of a pilot plant. Let's talk about that as a 0:16:15.076 --> 0:16:17.116 way to understand the process. What does it look like 0:16:17.156 --> 0:16:19.036 if I drive up there? Like, how big is it? 0:16:19.076 --> 0:16:19.756 What does it look like? 0:16:20.036 --> 0:16:23.396 So you drive up there and the first thing you 0:16:23.516 --> 0:16:28.436 see is that there's a big box and the box 0:16:28.516 --> 0:16:32.876 is basically, you know, it's a semi open building. 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:35.276 Like the size of Costco or something. When you say 0:16:35.316 --> 0:16:36.676 big box, like how big are you talking? 0:16:36.836 --> 0:16:40.836 Yeah, it's this specific one is probably a quarter size 0:16:40.956 --> 0:16:44.076 of a Costco. And once you go in, you will 0:16:44.116 --> 0:16:49.596 see these tall stocks of trays. Imagine very large baking trays, 0:16:50.076 --> 0:16:51.876 stock multiple stories. 0:16:51.596 --> 0:16:52.796 How many stories? How tall? 0:16:52.916 --> 0:16:55.636 So this specific one is about forty feet tall, a 0:16:55.636 --> 0:16:57.476 couple hundred trays stacked all the way to the top. 0:16:57.516 --> 0:17:00.876 And if you come closer to each tray, you'll start 0:17:00.916 --> 0:17:05.996 seeing kind of like a large white cookie crumbled sitting 0:17:06.036 --> 0:17:07.756 on a tray, and. 0:17:07.756 --> 0:17:09.876 It looks like it's just sitting there, but actually it's 0:17:09.916 --> 0:17:12.196 absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air exactly. 0:17:12.276 --> 0:17:17.476 And what's cool is when you so you start out with, 0:17:17.636 --> 0:17:19.916 you know, a bunch of white powder, and there's a 0:17:19.916 --> 0:17:22.836 small amount of water that basically makes it cohesive, and 0:17:22.956 --> 0:17:26.716 over time it's actually growing, just like growing like a cookie, right, 0:17:26.756 --> 0:17:29.556 And as it's growing, it forms all these cracks and 0:17:29.596 --> 0:17:32.236 it crumbles and so forth, and all that extra mass 0:17:32.516 --> 0:17:35.756 is COO two. The only thing that captures is CO 0:17:35.996 --> 0:17:36.596 two from the air. 0:17:37.916 --> 0:17:40.476 And so at this point, how long does that process take? 0:17:40.516 --> 0:17:41.876 It takes a day or something. 0:17:41.916 --> 0:17:45.156 It takes a few days. The ones upcoming are much faster, 0:17:45.676 --> 0:17:47.836 So I'll keep that under the rest. 0:17:48.756 --> 0:17:51.956 So then you have your big cookie full of carbon dioxide. 0:17:52.796 --> 0:17:54.596 What do you do with it? 0:17:54.716 --> 0:17:56.996 After a few days. We don't wait until one hundred 0:17:57.036 --> 0:17:59.956 percent saturation. We wait until eighty five ninety percent, and 0:17:59.996 --> 0:18:03.756 then we bring it over to a hot kiln. And 0:18:03.796 --> 0:18:06.996 this kiln is running. You know, it's electric, it's renewable 0:18:07.116 --> 0:18:08.396 energy powered, so. 0:18:08.356 --> 0:18:10.476 It's super high, right, what is it like, nine hundred 0:18:10.516 --> 0:18:13.796 degrees celsius or exactly right? Wildly hot? Yeah. Yeah. 0:18:14.556 --> 0:18:19.076 Basically, you're exposing this material for ten to fifteen seconds 0:18:19.316 --> 0:18:25.116 to very high temperature, and it's decomposing. It's releasing the 0:18:25.156 --> 0:18:27.916 CO two that it captured from the air, and now 0:18:28.036 --> 0:18:31.596 you essentially have high purity CO two coming out of 0:18:31.596 --> 0:18:34.876 the kiln. We compress it and in the case of 0:18:34.916 --> 0:18:38.556 the Tracy facility, we store it in concrete, but in 0:18:38.596 --> 0:18:42.276 the future facilities it's either going underground or it's used 0:18:42.316 --> 0:18:45.636 for synthetic fuels and so forth. The line that comes 0:18:45.636 --> 0:18:48.156 off of it, it's ready to capture more CO two. 0:18:48.436 --> 0:18:52.036 So we're sending it back into the tray, expose it 0:18:52.076 --> 0:18:55.076 to the air, capture more CO two, Wait a few days, 0:18:55.236 --> 0:18:58.076 put it back in the kilnt and the cycle repeats 0:18:58.116 --> 0:18:59.916 over and over and over again. 0:19:00.876 --> 0:19:03.356 Heating get kiln to nine hundred degrees See is wildly 0:19:03.476 --> 0:19:06.356 energy intensive, right, And obviously for your project, you're not 0:19:06.396 --> 0:19:08.156 going to burn fossil fuel to do that. But is 0:19:08.196 --> 0:19:10.996 that in terms of the cost of the whole thing, 0:19:11.156 --> 0:19:12.436 Is that the expensive part? 0:19:13.076 --> 0:19:15.796 That's the expensive part, Yes, And I think the one 0:19:15.796 --> 0:19:20.596 thing to realize is that the cement industry does this 0:19:20.796 --> 0:19:24.556 incredibly efficiently. Obviously they use cold natural gas and so forth, 0:19:24.916 --> 0:19:27.276 and you know, they've had decades of learning around how 0:19:27.316 --> 0:19:30.236 to do this efficiently so that you know, there's all 0:19:30.276 --> 0:19:33.356 sorts of heat exchange and heat recovery, and what we're 0:19:33.356 --> 0:19:36.316 doing right now is basically learning from that industry to 0:19:36.476 --> 0:19:40.756 incorporate that heat recovery so that the energy is as 0:19:40.796 --> 0:19:43.756 low as possible. I often think about, you know, what 0:19:43.876 --> 0:19:46.516 is the energy that's required for us to hit one 0:19:46.596 --> 0:19:48.676 hundred dollars per ton And we will talk about why 0:19:48.796 --> 0:19:51.956 hundred dollars per ton in a minute for that project, 0:19:51.956 --> 0:19:57.556 about two mega wat hours pertennaco two And if we 0:19:57.876 --> 0:20:01.316 adopted everything the cement industry alreadopted like, we could be 0:20:01.396 --> 0:20:04.636 a lot lower than two mega what hours. So you're 0:20:04.636 --> 0:20:08.676 not breaking physics in terms of the energy required to 0:20:08.676 --> 0:20:10.956 get to that. So you know, for us, the main 0:20:10.996 --> 0:20:14.676 goal is to make it as energy efficient as possible, 0:20:14.756 --> 0:20:17.636 recover heat, reuse the heat, and so forth, so that 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:19.996 you're not losing that heat to the atmosphere. 0:20:20.356 --> 0:20:22.476 So you're saying you just have to be as efficient 0:20:22.716 --> 0:20:24.676 as a industrial cement plant. 0:20:24.796 --> 0:20:26.076 Is that what you're saying exactly? 0:20:26.876 --> 0:20:28.196 I feel like it's harder than that. 0:20:28.276 --> 0:20:31.916 Sound Well, it's harder because folks have not done this 0:20:32.316 --> 0:20:33.916 yet for an electric kiln. 0:20:34.196 --> 0:20:38.036