1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,196 Speaker 1: Pushkin, How did spend in your childhood in Southeast India? 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:27,236 Speaker 1: Ef fact that we think about climate change. 3 00:00:26,036 --> 00:00:28,116 Speaker 2: The place where I grew up, you know, just had 4 00:00:28,156 --> 00:00:31,156 Speaker 2: to have had their path. When things got dry, they 5 00:00:31,156 --> 00:00:33,876 Speaker 2: got really dry, and when things got wet, they got 6 00:00:33,916 --> 00:00:36,796 Speaker 2: really wet. You know, the monster's got more and more extreme. 7 00:00:37,036 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 2: The droughts got more and more extreme over time. And 8 00:00:40,956 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 2: it's a pretty normal thing to show up to school 9 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:44,836 Speaker 2: one day and your friend just like doesn't come to 10 00:00:44,876 --> 00:00:46,676 Speaker 2: school for like six months at a time because they're 11 00:00:46,756 --> 00:00:49,876 Speaker 2: helping their parents recover from a flood that happened in 12 00:00:50,036 --> 00:00:53,596 Speaker 2: months ago. And it's a pretty common thing for me. 13 00:00:54,636 --> 00:00:57,156 Speaker 2: You know, I didn't know it was climate change growing up, honestly, 14 00:00:57,236 --> 00:00:58,956 Speaker 2: Like it was just like a thing that happened. 15 00:00:59,156 --> 00:01:00,036 Speaker 1: It was just climate. 16 00:01:00,156 --> 00:01:03,116 Speaker 2: That's what nature was, and things just got worse and 17 00:01:03,156 --> 00:01:05,636 Speaker 2: worse every year, and that's just how things are. As 18 00:01:05,916 --> 00:01:07,756 Speaker 2: I grew up and started learning a lot more, and 19 00:01:07,756 --> 00:01:10,796 Speaker 2: it started connecting the dots. What I realized was that 20 00:01:11,436 --> 00:01:13,876 Speaker 2: the folks who are facing the worst impacts of climate 21 00:01:13,956 --> 00:01:17,876 Speaker 2: change are the ones who are least educated about it 22 00:01:17,916 --> 00:01:21,436 Speaker 2: and then the most vulnerable to it already. And I 23 00:01:21,476 --> 00:01:23,996 Speaker 2: think That's what I think gives me a lot of 24 00:01:24,036 --> 00:01:28,396 Speaker 2: motivation and drive that fundamentally, this problem is an unfair 25 00:01:28,436 --> 00:01:31,956 Speaker 2: one where it's created and where the impacts are most felt. 26 00:01:32,756 --> 00:01:34,756 Speaker 2: People ask me like, how did you decide to work 27 00:01:34,796 --> 00:01:36,756 Speaker 2: on climate? How did you decide specifically to work on 28 00:01:36,756 --> 00:01:39,596 Speaker 2: carbon removal? But for me, it was a no brainer. 29 00:01:39,636 --> 00:01:41,236 Speaker 2: Of course I'm going to work on this, and of 30 00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:44,916 Speaker 2: course this is the most scalable way to solve the problem. 31 00:01:44,956 --> 00:01:48,276 Speaker 2: Being an engineer myself, like building these cost models so forth, 32 00:01:48,316 --> 00:01:50,876 Speaker 2: it's like it's actually possible. So why didn't we actually 33 00:01:50,916 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 2: go about doing it? It was just a matter of 34 00:01:52,996 --> 00:01:56,276 Speaker 2: putting together right team and right partners and going on 35 00:01:56,316 --> 00:02:03,036 Speaker 2: the journey. 36 00:02:03,156 --> 00:02:05,476 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is What's Your Problem? The 37 00:02:05,516 --> 00:02:07,356 Speaker 1: show where I talk to people who are trying to 38 00:02:07,396 --> 00:02:12,316 Speaker 1: make technological progress. My guest today is Shashank Samala Sschank 39 00:02:12,436 --> 00:02:16,516 Speaker 1: is the co founder and CEO of Airloom. Shashank's problem 40 00:02:16,556 --> 00:02:21,596 Speaker 1: is this, can you use crushed up rocks, specifically limestone, 41 00:02:22,036 --> 00:02:26,276 Speaker 1: to permanently suck carbon out of the atmosphere? And crucially 42 00:02:26,716 --> 00:02:29,596 Speaker 1: can you do it for one hundred dollars per ton 43 00:02:29,676 --> 00:02:33,196 Speaker 1: of carbon? To that end Heirloom has built a pilot 44 00:02:33,196 --> 00:02:36,956 Speaker 1: plant in California near its headquarters, and is currently working 45 00:02:36,996 --> 00:02:40,236 Speaker 1: on a much larger plant in Louisiana. By the way, 46 00:02:40,596 --> 00:02:43,356 Speaker 1: I learned about Shoshank from my conversation a few weeks 47 00:02:43,396 --> 00:02:46,316 Speaker 1: ago with Nan Ransahoff. If you missed that one and 48 00:02:46,476 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: want to hear more about carbon removal, you might want 49 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:53,396 Speaker 1: to check that out. Shachank began his career in manufacturing. 50 00:02:53,796 --> 00:02:57,676 Speaker 1: He wasn't an environmental scientist or a geologist, so to 51 00:02:57,756 --> 00:03:00,196 Speaker 1: start I asked him about rocks. 52 00:03:00,596 --> 00:03:03,276 Speaker 2: We love rocks. I've dedicated my life to rocks. 53 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:05,116 Speaker 1: When did you discover rocks? 54 00:03:05,596 --> 00:03:08,596 Speaker 2: When I realized that carbon capture is like the thing 55 00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:11,196 Speaker 2: to do, Not everyone has realized it yet, but like 56 00:03:11,436 --> 00:03:15,716 Speaker 2: people will. In that journey, I started just reading papers 57 00:03:15,716 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 2: and books at night, and you know, it was basically, 58 00:03:19,396 --> 00:03:21,516 Speaker 2: what are the natural things that I already doing this? It's 59 00:03:21,756 --> 00:03:22,916 Speaker 2: biomass and rocks. 60 00:03:23,236 --> 00:03:24,716 Speaker 1: Basically plants and rocks. 61 00:03:24,956 --> 00:03:25,756 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 62 00:03:26,476 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 1: When you start looking at this, it does seem like 63 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:32,076 Speaker 1: there's sort of three very crudely kind of modes. Right, 64 00:03:32,116 --> 00:03:36,276 Speaker 1: people are using fans, plants, and rocks, right, Yeah, Why 65 00:03:36,276 --> 00:03:38,516 Speaker 1: did you wind up ruling out fans and plants. 66 00:03:39,676 --> 00:03:42,676 Speaker 2: So that's a great question. I think at the beginning, 67 00:03:43,196 --> 00:03:45,876 Speaker 2: when I first got started, I wasn't married to any approach. 68 00:03:46,236 --> 00:03:49,876 Speaker 2: I come from a manufacturing background. I was making electronics 69 00:03:49,876 --> 00:03:51,916 Speaker 2: for satellites and robots and so forth, and you know, 70 00:03:51,956 --> 00:03:55,876 Speaker 2: manufacturing is superkin margins and you have to understand where 71 00:03:55,876 --> 00:03:58,196 Speaker 2: your costs are. And for me, when I first started 72 00:03:58,196 --> 00:04:01,236 Speaker 2: looking at this problem, it was very clear that at 73 00:04:01,236 --> 00:04:03,436 Speaker 2: the end of the day, what matters has cost costs 74 00:04:03,436 --> 00:04:06,476 Speaker 2: pertanos two. You know, it's not like we're designing an 75 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:10,276 Speaker 2: amazingly beautiful car for people to drive around. All the 76 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:13,276 Speaker 2: matters is how many molecules of CO two in the 77 00:04:13,316 --> 00:04:17,156 Speaker 2: air are and how cost effectively you remove it, how. 78 00:04:16,996 --> 00:04:20,236 Speaker 1: Many molecules of CO two per dollar you can get exactly. 79 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:23,316 Speaker 2: So I was just so obsessed about, like, you know, 80 00:04:23,356 --> 00:04:26,516 Speaker 2: what is the absolute simplest way you can solve this problem. 81 00:04:26,876 --> 00:04:29,676 Speaker 2: And there's a bunch of other folks who are using 82 00:04:29,716 --> 00:04:32,716 Speaker 2: synthetic ways to you know, using fans and so forth 83 00:04:32,836 --> 00:04:36,796 Speaker 2: to pull carbon, And I think the best way to 84 00:04:36,876 --> 00:04:39,636 Speaker 2: approach an engineering problem is just like what is the 85 00:04:40,356 --> 00:04:43,156 Speaker 2: bare minimum you need and then add complexity from there. 86 00:04:43,836 --> 00:04:47,156 Speaker 1: So why does this idea of like cheapest absolute bare minimum, 87 00:04:47,196 --> 00:04:48,556 Speaker 1: why does that lead you to rocks? 88 00:04:49,236 --> 00:04:52,596 Speaker 2: Rocks basically have a couple of principles, right, Like, if 89 00:04:52,596 --> 00:04:56,156 Speaker 2: you start with the idea that you need CO two 90 00:04:56,316 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 2: to be permanently sequestered so you know it doesn't decomposs 91 00:05:00,596 --> 00:05:04,676 Speaker 2: back into the atmosphere, you need a sponge With rocks, 92 00:05:04,716 --> 00:05:07,636 Speaker 2: it's the CO two only goes one way and it 93 00:05:07,636 --> 00:05:11,036 Speaker 2: doesn't respire back you, so it doesn't decompos and they're 94 00:05:11,076 --> 00:05:14,836 Speaker 2: super cheap. Earth has already spent billions of years creating 95 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:18,116 Speaker 2: this sort of crystal instruction in this geochemical mineral that 96 00:05:18,276 --> 00:05:21,956 Speaker 2: is thirsty for CO two, and it helped balance the 97 00:05:21,956 --> 00:05:25,036 Speaker 2: CO two in the atmosphere, So it already paid this 98 00:05:25,196 --> 00:05:28,756 Speaker 2: energy penalty to make this rock that is super abundant 99 00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:31,196 Speaker 2: and cheap. So the mineral the view using it's you know, 100 00:05:31,236 --> 00:05:33,476 Speaker 2: thirty to forty bucks a ton, and we can reuse 101 00:05:33,516 --> 00:05:35,796 Speaker 2: it over and over again. So you know, if you 102 00:05:35,796 --> 00:05:38,316 Speaker 2: can reuse it s a hundred cycles, you can get 103 00:05:38,316 --> 00:05:41,876 Speaker 2: the cost per ton for the rock down to twenty 104 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:42,436 Speaker 2: thirty cents. 105 00:05:42,876 --> 00:05:45,476 Speaker 1: So you land on limestone. Right, you haven't said limestone, 106 00:05:45,476 --> 00:05:48,516 Speaker 1: but you're talking about limes. Ztone, tell me about limestone. 107 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:54,076 Speaker 2: Yeah, So limestone is this amazingly beautiful chemical. It's a 108 00:05:54,156 --> 00:05:57,516 Speaker 2: naturally occurring mineral. There is four percent of the Earth's 109 00:05:57,556 --> 00:06:01,116 Speaker 2: crust is made up of limestone, and the chemical formula 110 00:06:01,116 --> 00:06:04,716 Speaker 2: for it is calcium carbonate, and Earth produced a lot 111 00:06:04,756 --> 00:06:08,276 Speaker 2: of this over you know, billions of years to partly 112 00:06:08,356 --> 00:06:11,716 Speaker 2: to help balance the CO two in the atmosphere. It's 113 00:06:11,756 --> 00:06:13,836 Speaker 2: like if you're a rock climber, it's a chalk that is, 114 00:06:13,876 --> 00:06:18,196 Speaker 2: it's a carbonate limestone. It's it's incredibly abundant, basically looks 115 00:06:18,236 --> 00:06:19,396 Speaker 2: like white powder. 116 00:06:19,636 --> 00:06:22,836 Speaker 1: So that's limestone. It has carbon dioxide in it already, 117 00:06:22,916 --> 00:06:25,116 Speaker 1: so it's already done the thing you want to do 118 00:06:25,156 --> 00:06:27,036 Speaker 1: Exactly when you're figuring out what's going to be your 119 00:06:27,036 --> 00:06:28,716 Speaker 1: play for air capture, like how do you get to 120 00:06:28,756 --> 00:06:31,916 Speaker 1: where you wind up? Like you see that limestone has 121 00:06:31,956 --> 00:06:35,116 Speaker 1: already done this thing. Limestone already has the carbon, but 122 00:06:35,196 --> 00:06:37,236 Speaker 1: that's not what you want, Like you want to capture 123 00:06:37,276 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 1: more carbon exactly. 124 00:06:38,836 --> 00:06:42,156 Speaker 2: I think carbon removal and directory capture. It's all a 125 00:06:42,476 --> 00:06:46,836 Speaker 2: energy optimization play. Yeah, how do you spend as little 126 00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:50,716 Speaker 2: energy as possible to remove a bunch of cooto molecules 127 00:06:50,716 --> 00:06:54,116 Speaker 2: from the air, and you know, and there's a lot 128 00:06:54,116 --> 00:06:56,636 Speaker 2: of different directions, a lot of different philosophies on how 129 00:06:56,676 --> 00:07:01,036 Speaker 2: you approach this problem. And our thesis was, you need 130 00:07:01,076 --> 00:07:03,796 Speaker 2: a sponge to remove the CO two, and there's an 131 00:07:03,916 --> 00:07:07,276 Speaker 2: energy that goes into capturing the YOU two, and there's 132 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:11,196 Speaker 2: an energy that goes into releasing that CO two so 133 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:14,516 Speaker 2: that we can capture more CO two with that sponge. 134 00:07:14,596 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 1: Right, you got to capture the CO two from the air, 135 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:18,916 Speaker 1: and then you've got to do something with it to 136 00:07:19,516 --> 00:07:22,556 Speaker 1: basically stick it in the ground for ten thousand years exactly. 137 00:07:22,636 --> 00:07:26,196 Speaker 1: So it's a two step process. There's capture and storage. Right. 138 00:07:26,836 --> 00:07:30,396 Speaker 1: All the different angles are doing some version of that, right, 139 00:07:30,476 --> 00:07:32,276 Speaker 1: those two step process exactly. 140 00:07:32,356 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 2: It's a capture and a release, capture and regeneration. And 141 00:07:36,316 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 2: the whole play is how do you minimize energy in 142 00:07:39,596 --> 00:07:40,356 Speaker 2: both of those steps. 143 00:07:40,876 --> 00:07:44,276 Speaker 1: Yeah, because the energy basically winds up being cost, right, 144 00:07:44,356 --> 00:07:47,796 Speaker 1: like the cost the key input ends up being energy. 145 00:07:47,516 --> 00:07:50,796 Speaker 2: Exactly right, exactly right. It's you know, whether it's in 146 00:07:50,836 --> 00:07:53,436 Speaker 2: the form of capital equipment, whether it's in the form 147 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:57,636 Speaker 2: of literal electrons going in, it's energy. At the end 148 00:07:57,636 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 2: of the day. Is the thing to optimize around, and 149 00:08:01,316 --> 00:08:04,356 Speaker 2: so for us when we looked around, that was not 150 00:08:04,396 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 2: a PhD in material science when I started this, right, like, 151 00:08:06,836 --> 00:08:09,676 Speaker 2: I come from a manufacturing background, and I literally just 152 00:08:09,716 --> 00:08:12,476 Speaker 2: like picked up my chemistry books from high school and 153 00:08:12,716 --> 00:08:17,276 Speaker 2: reread them to you know, first getting started and basically like, 154 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:20,956 Speaker 2: if this is the framework and you're trying to optimize 155 00:08:21,116 --> 00:08:24,076 Speaker 2: energy on both sides, first you start with the capture step. Okay, 156 00:08:24,116 --> 00:08:27,516 Speaker 2: well what already does this naturally? Right? And there's a 157 00:08:27,516 --> 00:08:30,756 Speaker 2: bunch of carbonates, calcin carbonate, machnicin carbonate, and so forth. 158 00:08:31,076 --> 00:08:34,596 Speaker 2: And we ended up with calcin carbonate limestone because it 159 00:08:34,676 --> 00:08:38,836 Speaker 2: needs the lowest amount of energy to capture CO two, okay, 160 00:08:39,556 --> 00:08:44,796 Speaker 2: just thermodynamically, and it's thermodynamically favored. It's so thirsty for 161 00:08:44,876 --> 00:08:47,756 Speaker 2: COO two, Like if you figure out a way to 162 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:50,276 Speaker 2: break it to release that COO two and you put 163 00:08:50,316 --> 00:08:52,716 Speaker 2: that on your desk, it just starts gobbling up COO 164 00:08:52,796 --> 00:08:54,396 Speaker 2: two molecules whether you like it or not. 165 00:08:54,516 --> 00:08:58,076 Speaker 1: So it's very energy favorable for step one exactly capture, 166 00:08:58,836 --> 00:09:00,796 Speaker 1: but it doesn't want to release it once it has 167 00:09:00,796 --> 00:09:02,596 Speaker 1: it right as you put it out. There's two steps. 168 00:09:02,596 --> 00:09:03,356 Speaker 2: There's two steps. 169 00:09:03,396 --> 00:09:05,916 Speaker 1: Now you've got this limestone full of carbon, but you 170 00:09:05,996 --> 00:09:07,556 Speaker 1: got to get it to release it. And it does 171 00:09:07,596 --> 00:09:10,636 Speaker 1: seem like for you that's the hard part. That's certainly 172 00:09:10,636 --> 00:09:11,996 Speaker 1: the energy intensive part. 173 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:14,396 Speaker 2: That is certainly the energy intensive part. Not just for us, 174 00:09:14,476 --> 00:09:16,876 Speaker 2: it's actually basically everyone else. 175 00:09:17,556 --> 00:09:20,236 Speaker 1: Oh you mean, for all of the carbon capture and removal. 176 00:09:20,276 --> 00:09:21,956 Speaker 1: It's actually the release is the hard part. 177 00:09:22,196 --> 00:09:25,036 Speaker 2: The release is the most energy intensive part. And when 178 00:09:25,036 --> 00:09:29,236 Speaker 2: we first picked limestone, we liked the way of releasing 179 00:09:29,236 --> 00:09:33,756 Speaker 2: CO two in the second step because cement industry already 180 00:09:33,756 --> 00:09:37,396 Speaker 2: does this, cement and lime industry. They take limestone, they 181 00:09:37,396 --> 00:09:40,716 Speaker 2: break it into calcium oxide CO two put the cootwo 182 00:09:40,756 --> 00:09:43,476 Speaker 2: into the air, but they take the calcium oxide, put 183 00:09:43,476 --> 00:09:44,756 Speaker 2: a bunch of other stuff to it, and turn it 184 00:09:44,796 --> 00:09:45,356 Speaker 2: into cement. 185 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:48,036 Speaker 1: And just to be clear, like let's just pause there, 186 00:09:48,076 --> 00:09:50,876 Speaker 1: because this is a giant global industry that in fact 187 00:09:50,956 --> 00:09:53,036 Speaker 1: is a huge emitter for this reason, right fact, the 188 00:09:53,116 --> 00:09:56,516 Speaker 1: key input to cement is limestone. And the basic thing 189 00:09:56,556 --> 00:09:59,756 Speaker 1: you do when you're making cement is you put limestone 190 00:09:59,756 --> 00:10:02,236 Speaker 1: in a kiln, make it very hot, and you just 191 00:10:02,316 --> 00:10:05,316 Speaker 1: burn off the CO two and then you're left with lime, 192 00:10:05,556 --> 00:10:09,556 Speaker 1: which is whatever, it's calcium oxide something. Yeah, So there 193 00:10:09,596 --> 00:10:12,596 Speaker 1: is a question I have there, which is like, there's 194 00:10:12,596 --> 00:10:15,556 Speaker 1: already a giant global industry of people doing this. Yes, 195 00:10:15,876 --> 00:10:18,956 Speaker 1: would it not be more efficient to just capture that 196 00:10:19,156 --> 00:10:22,436 Speaker 1: CO two that they're already releasing literally today in great 197 00:10:22,516 --> 00:10:24,316 Speaker 1: quantities and stick that in the ground. 198 00:10:24,876 --> 00:10:27,996 Speaker 2: We should absolutely do that, And there's many companies already 199 00:10:28,036 --> 00:10:31,196 Speaker 2: doing that as well. And that's that's called points source capture, 200 00:10:31,476 --> 00:10:35,556 Speaker 2: So where you're essentially avoiding emissions from a cement plant 201 00:10:35,676 --> 00:10:38,356 Speaker 2: or national gas power plan fitting the CO two into. 202 00:10:38,236 --> 00:10:40,716 Speaker 1: The air, and then you get to sell the cement, right. 203 00:10:40,756 --> 00:10:44,076 Speaker 1: I feel like the economics there are much more favorable. 204 00:10:45,076 --> 00:10:48,956 Speaker 2: Well, you're selling cement, but it's actually an added cost 205 00:10:49,196 --> 00:10:50,876 Speaker 2: to capture that CO two. 206 00:10:50,796 --> 00:10:52,956 Speaker 1: Right, sure, So I mean ideally you could sell the 207 00:10:52,996 --> 00:10:55,436 Speaker 1: cement and sell the carbon capture and removal. 208 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:58,676 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a different technical method. It's it's points source capture, 209 00:10:58,796 --> 00:11:00,716 Speaker 2: and there's a bunch of folks already working on it. 210 00:11:01,196 --> 00:11:04,036 Speaker 2: What we're focused on is removing COEO two that's already 211 00:11:04,036 --> 00:11:04,516 Speaker 2: in the air. 212 00:11:05,076 --> 00:11:08,996 Speaker 1: Are you assuming that like in X years ten or something, 213 00:11:09,956 --> 00:11:12,316 Speaker 1: everybody making cement's going to do that? Anyways? And you 214 00:11:12,356 --> 00:11:13,796 Speaker 1: want to do a marginal benefit. 215 00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:16,796 Speaker 2: So if you look across four thousands CEM in plants 216 00:11:16,796 --> 00:11:19,396 Speaker 2: that already exist on the planet, there's a bunch of 217 00:11:19,476 --> 00:11:22,396 Speaker 2: other infrastructure that needs to be in place for points 218 00:11:22,396 --> 00:11:25,036 Speaker 2: source capture to happen. There's a bunch of cemen plants 219 00:11:25,036 --> 00:11:29,196 Speaker 2: that are close to where energy is cheap and underground 220 00:11:29,236 --> 00:11:32,116 Speaker 2: storage is available, where they can do points source capture, 221 00:11:32,156 --> 00:11:34,836 Speaker 2: and we should absolutely do it. But there's also many 222 00:11:34,876 --> 00:11:38,036 Speaker 2: many cimon plants, thousands of cimon plants that are not 223 00:11:38,236 --> 00:11:41,556 Speaker 2: near where a COE to underground storage is available or 224 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 2: energy is not available. To actually capture that CO two 225 00:11:44,276 --> 00:11:48,196 Speaker 2: from from the flue gas that it would be very expensive. 226 00:11:48,196 --> 00:11:50,396 Speaker 2: You would have to transport that CO two hundreds of 227 00:11:50,396 --> 00:11:53,236 Speaker 2: miles away and that costs a lot of money, and 228 00:11:53,796 --> 00:11:56,996 Speaker 2: effectively it becomes a cost benefit analysis where it could 229 00:11:57,036 --> 00:11:59,636 Speaker 2: actually be cheaper to remove the CO two than putting 230 00:11:59,676 --> 00:12:01,276 Speaker 2: a point source capture on top of it. 231 00:12:01,516 --> 00:12:04,676 Speaker 1: So okay, so that's why not do it with cement 232 00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:07,076 Speaker 1: or not just do it with cement exactly. So you 233 00:12:07,196 --> 00:12:11,196 Speaker 1: have this idea, what are the obvious problems with it? 234 00:12:11,196 --> 00:12:13,316 Speaker 1: When you come up with the idea, what are the like, oh, 235 00:12:13,356 --> 00:12:15,036 Speaker 1: here's why it's going to be difficult. 236 00:12:15,876 --> 00:12:18,236 Speaker 2: Here's why it's going to be difficult. So I think 237 00:12:18,716 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 2: at the beginning, you know, when before the start started, 238 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:24,716 Speaker 2: and I think people knew that rocks can capture CO two, 239 00:12:25,916 --> 00:12:31,356 Speaker 2: but the problem was it was too slow. You know, geochemically, naturally, 240 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:34,476 Speaker 2: it would take maybe six months or a year to 241 00:12:34,516 --> 00:12:37,076 Speaker 2: fully saturate itself with CO two in the air. So 242 00:12:37,116 --> 00:12:38,516 Speaker 2: if you put that on your desk, it would take 243 00:12:38,516 --> 00:12:41,476 Speaker 2: that long. And if you put that into a cost model, 244 00:12:41,636 --> 00:12:44,476 Speaker 2: you pretty quickly realize that there's just no way this 245 00:12:44,556 --> 00:12:47,036 Speaker 2: can get to one hundred bucks a ton long term. 246 00:12:46,676 --> 00:12:49,396 Speaker 1: Just because you've got to have like essentially a factory, 247 00:12:49,556 --> 00:12:52,356 Speaker 1: and all that's happening at your factory is rock is 248 00:12:52,396 --> 00:12:54,196 Speaker 1: sitting there for a year exactly. 249 00:12:54,236 --> 00:12:58,076 Speaker 2: You need gobs and gobs of limestone, yea, And I 250 00:12:58,076 --> 00:13:00,636 Speaker 2: mean think of you know, thousands of scure kilometers to 251 00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 2: capture you. 252 00:13:01,756 --> 00:13:02,716 Speaker 1: Know, not gonna work. 253 00:13:02,876 --> 00:13:05,476 Speaker 2: It's not gonna work. So, you know, it was pretty 254 00:13:05,516 --> 00:13:08,756 Speaker 2: clear from the beginning that this thing needs to be 255 00:13:09,316 --> 00:13:12,596 Speaker 2: at least ten times faster, if not more. And at 256 00:13:12,636 --> 00:13:15,436 Speaker 2: the beginning, we're not sure whether this is even possible. 257 00:13:15,516 --> 00:13:18,476 Speaker 2: And you know, we just had a few scientists just 258 00:13:18,636 --> 00:13:21,756 Speaker 2: playing around with a few different things, and they figured 259 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:24,996 Speaker 2: out how to basically give it superpowers to pull carbon 260 00:13:25,036 --> 00:13:29,076 Speaker 2: from the air faster. And over the last been seven years, 261 00:13:29,076 --> 00:13:30,996 Speaker 2: where you know, we started at six months, and we 262 00:13:31,596 --> 00:13:34,196 Speaker 2: first went to you know, three months, and then you know, 263 00:13:34,196 --> 00:13:36,076 Speaker 2: it went down to a month, and then it went 264 00:13:36,116 --> 00:13:38,396 Speaker 2: down to two weeks and five days and four days. 265 00:13:38,476 --> 00:13:43,196 Speaker 2: We're way down below that today. And what's been interesting 266 00:13:43,356 --> 00:13:46,796 Speaker 2: is people will always ask me, why is this so 267 00:13:46,876 --> 00:13:49,916 Speaker 2: important for you to cycle time? And it's so important 268 00:13:49,916 --> 00:13:52,676 Speaker 2: because the difference between ten days and five days is 269 00:13:53,116 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 2: for the same amount of capital equipment, I can get 270 00:13:56,316 --> 00:13:59,396 Speaker 2: two x to through put right, and the costs come 271 00:13:59,476 --> 00:14:03,876 Speaker 2: down just dramatically. So that's been our biggest lever and 272 00:14:03,956 --> 00:14:07,356 Speaker 2: it's been amazing. Every twelve to eighteen months we figured 273 00:14:07,356 --> 00:14:08,996 Speaker 2: out a way to make it about two ks faster. 274 00:14:09,476 --> 00:14:12,436 Speaker 2: I think that's where a lot of optimism comes from 275 00:14:12,516 --> 00:14:13,276 Speaker 2: for cost reduction. 276 00:14:14,556 --> 00:14:17,516 Speaker 1: Is there one particular improvement that would be interesting to 277 00:14:17,516 --> 00:14:20,076 Speaker 1: talk about, one particular thing you figured out or your 278 00:14:20,116 --> 00:14:21,556 Speaker 1: team figured out to go faster. 279 00:14:22,716 --> 00:14:25,836 Speaker 2: There's about fifteen to twenty different parameters internally, you know, 280 00:14:25,916 --> 00:14:29,596 Speaker 2: there's like particle size, particle size distribution, the porosity of 281 00:14:29,596 --> 00:14:31,636 Speaker 2: the particle, the surface area of each particle. 282 00:14:32,036 --> 00:14:34,276 Speaker 1: So these are just physical traits. You sort of mash 283 00:14:34,356 --> 00:14:36,356 Speaker 1: up the rock in different ways, grind it up one 284 00:14:36,396 --> 00:14:37,596 Speaker 1: way or grind it up another way. 285 00:14:37,756 --> 00:14:39,716 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we actually grind it up only once at 286 00:14:39,716 --> 00:14:41,756 Speaker 2: the beginning, when we first get the feed stock from 287 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:45,556 Speaker 2: the mine. But how you run the process, you know 288 00:14:45,596 --> 00:14:48,956 Speaker 2: what temperature and what residents time you have in the oven. 289 00:14:49,076 --> 00:14:50,916 Speaker 2: You know, it's sort of like when you're baking cookies 290 00:14:50,916 --> 00:14:52,836 Speaker 2: in an oven, right, Like there's a few levers you have, 291 00:14:53,356 --> 00:14:56,076 Speaker 2: and it actually turns out they have a big implication 292 00:14:56,156 --> 00:14:59,196 Speaker 2: on how the physical properties of these things are. 293 00:15:00,156 --> 00:15:02,996 Speaker 1: But it's not chemical. You're not like adding chemical inputs. 294 00:15:03,036 --> 00:15:06,436 Speaker 1: You're just monking with the limestone in different ways to 295 00:15:06,476 --> 00:15:11,716 Speaker 1: get you know, a magnitude of it's. 296 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 2: Pretty insane, Like it's the science is a lot more complicated. 297 00:15:15,556 --> 00:15:19,716 Speaker 2: But there's a specific parameter space that the nature really 298 00:15:19,756 --> 00:15:24,316 Speaker 2: loves limestone to be in, and we're constantly experimenting with 299 00:15:24,636 --> 00:15:26,756 Speaker 2: how you get into that tight space. 300 00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:30,076 Speaker 1: When you say nature loves that, you mean that makes 301 00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:34,476 Speaker 1: it particularly eager to absorb carbon dioxide. 302 00:15:34,076 --> 00:15:38,956 Speaker 2: Exactly Yeah, humidity. For example, we love humidity. It actually 303 00:15:38,956 --> 00:15:41,356 Speaker 2: forms a thin layer of water on top of lime 304 00:15:42,076 --> 00:15:45,036 Speaker 2: and it makes it even more thirsty for COO two, 305 00:15:45,276 --> 00:15:47,916 Speaker 2: And all these things kind of work together. And our 306 00:15:47,956 --> 00:15:51,036 Speaker 2: technology is all about how do you keep this rock 307 00:15:51,156 --> 00:15:54,316 Speaker 2: in that tight space so we can capture you know, 308 00:15:54,396 --> 00:15:56,276 Speaker 2: CO two about one hundred times faster. 309 00:15:56,196 --> 00:15:59,596 Speaker 1: That tight possibility space, that tight space of possible, and. 310 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:01,636 Speaker 2: As cheaply as possible. Right, Like, we're not adding chemicals, 311 00:16:01,676 --> 00:16:04,836 Speaker 2: we're not adding catalysts, just a bunch of rocks sitting 312 00:16:04,876 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 2: on trace. 313 00:16:06,116 --> 00:16:08,316 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the facility. So you built this facility 314 00:16:08,916 --> 00:16:12,596 Speaker 1: in Tracy, California, right east of San Francisco. That's sort 315 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:15,036 Speaker 1: of a pilot plant. Let's talk about that as a 316 00:16:15,076 --> 00:16:17,116 Speaker 1: way to understand the process. What does it look like 317 00:16:17,156 --> 00:16:19,036 Speaker 1: if I drive up there? Like, how big is it? 318 00:16:19,076 --> 00:16:19,756 Speaker 1: What does it look like? 319 00:16:20,036 --> 00:16:23,396 Speaker 2: So you drive up there and the first thing you 320 00:16:23,516 --> 00:16:28,436 Speaker 2: see is that there's a big box and the box 321 00:16:28,516 --> 00:16:32,876 Speaker 2: is basically, you know, it's a semi open building. 322 00:16:32,996 --> 00:16:35,276 Speaker 1: Like the size of Costco or something. When you say 323 00:16:35,316 --> 00:16:36,676 Speaker 1: big box, like how big are you talking? 324 00:16:36,836 --> 00:16:40,836 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's this specific one is probably a quarter size 325 00:16:40,956 --> 00:16:44,076 Speaker 2: of a Costco. And once you go in, you will 326 00:16:44,116 --> 00:16:49,596 Speaker 2: see these tall stocks of trays. Imagine very large baking trays, 327 00:16:50,076 --> 00:16:51,876 Speaker 2: stock multiple stories. 328 00:16:51,596 --> 00:16:52,796 Speaker 1: How many stories? How tall? 329 00:16:52,916 --> 00:16:55,636 Speaker 2: So this specific one is about forty feet tall, a 330 00:16:55,636 --> 00:16:57,476 Speaker 2: couple hundred trays stacked all the way to the top. 331 00:16:57,516 --> 00:17:00,876 Speaker 2: And if you come closer to each tray, you'll start 332 00:17:00,916 --> 00:17:05,996 Speaker 2: seeing kind of like a large white cookie crumbled sitting 333 00:17:06,036 --> 00:17:07,756 Speaker 2: on a tray, and. 334 00:17:07,756 --> 00:17:09,876 Speaker 1: It looks like it's just sitting there, but actually it's 335 00:17:09,916 --> 00:17:12,196 Speaker 1: absorbing carbon dioxide out of the air exactly. 336 00:17:12,276 --> 00:17:17,476 Speaker 2: And what's cool is when you so you start out with, 337 00:17:17,636 --> 00:17:19,916 Speaker 2: you know, a bunch of white powder, and there's a 338 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:22,836 Speaker 2: small amount of water that basically makes it cohesive, and 339 00:17:22,956 --> 00:17:26,716 Speaker 2: over time it's actually growing, just like growing like a cookie, right, 340 00:17:26,756 --> 00:17:29,556 Speaker 2: And as it's growing, it forms all these cracks and 341 00:17:29,596 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 2: it crumbles and so forth, and all that extra mass 342 00:17:32,516 --> 00:17:35,756 Speaker 2: is COO two. The only thing that captures is CO 343 00:17:35,996 --> 00:17:36,596 Speaker 2: two from the air. 344 00:17:37,916 --> 00:17:40,476 Speaker 1: And so at this point, how long does that process take? 345 00:17:40,516 --> 00:17:41,876 Speaker 1: It takes a day or something. 346 00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:45,156 Speaker 2: It takes a few days. The ones upcoming are much faster, 347 00:17:45,676 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 2: So I'll keep that under the rest. 348 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:51,956 Speaker 1: So then you have your big cookie full of carbon dioxide. 349 00:17:52,796 --> 00:17:54,596 Speaker 1: What do you do with it? 350 00:17:54,716 --> 00:17:56,996 Speaker 2: After a few days. We don't wait until one hundred 351 00:17:57,036 --> 00:17:59,956 Speaker 2: percent saturation. We wait until eighty five ninety percent, and 352 00:17:59,996 --> 00:18:03,756 Speaker 2: then we bring it over to a hot kiln. And 353 00:18:03,796 --> 00:18:06,996 Speaker 2: this kiln is running. You know, it's electric, it's renewable 354 00:18:07,116 --> 00:18:08,396 Speaker 2: energy powered, so. 355 00:18:08,356 --> 00:18:10,476 Speaker 1: It's super high, right, what is it like, nine hundred 356 00:18:10,516 --> 00:18:13,796 Speaker 1: degrees celsius or exactly right? Wildly hot? Yeah. Yeah. 357 00:18:14,556 --> 00:18:19,076 Speaker 2: Basically, you're exposing this material for ten to fifteen seconds 358 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:25,116 Speaker 2: to very high temperature, and it's decomposing. It's releasing the 359 00:18:25,156 --> 00:18:27,916 Speaker 2: CO two that it captured from the air, and now 360 00:18:28,036 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 2: you essentially have high purity CO two coming out of 361 00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:34,876 Speaker 2: the kiln. We compress it and in the case of 362 00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:38,556 Speaker 2: the Tracy facility, we store it in concrete, but in 363 00:18:38,596 --> 00:18:42,276 Speaker 2: the future facilities it's either going underground or it's used 364 00:18:42,316 --> 00:18:45,636 Speaker 2: for synthetic fuels and so forth. The line that comes 365 00:18:45,636 --> 00:18:48,156 Speaker 2: off of it, it's ready to capture more CO two. 366 00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:52,036 Speaker 2: So we're sending it back into the tray, expose it 367 00:18:52,076 --> 00:18:55,076 Speaker 2: to the air, capture more CO two, Wait a few days, 368 00:18:55,236 --> 00:18:58,076 Speaker 2: put it back in the kilnt and the cycle repeats 369 00:18:58,116 --> 00:18:59,916 Speaker 2: over and over and over again. 370 00:19:00,876 --> 00:19:03,356 Speaker 1: Heating get kiln to nine hundred degrees See is wildly 371 00:19:03,476 --> 00:19:06,356 Speaker 1: energy intensive, right, And obviously for your project, you're not 372 00:19:06,396 --> 00:19:08,156 Speaker 1: going to burn fossil fuel to do that. But is 373 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:10,996 Speaker 1: that in terms of the cost of the whole thing, 374 00:19:11,156 --> 00:19:12,436 Speaker 1: Is that the expensive part? 375 00:19:13,076 --> 00:19:15,796 Speaker 2: That's the expensive part, Yes, And I think the one 376 00:19:15,796 --> 00:19:20,596 Speaker 2: thing to realize is that the cement industry does this 377 00:19:20,796 --> 00:19:24,556 Speaker 2: incredibly efficiently. Obviously they use cold natural gas and so forth, 378 00:19:24,916 --> 00:19:27,276 Speaker 2: and you know, they've had decades of learning around how 379 00:19:27,316 --> 00:19:30,236 Speaker 2: to do this efficiently so that you know, there's all 380 00:19:30,276 --> 00:19:33,356 Speaker 2: sorts of heat exchange and heat recovery, and what we're 381 00:19:33,356 --> 00:19:36,316 Speaker 2: doing right now is basically learning from that industry to 382 00:19:36,476 --> 00:19:40,756 Speaker 2: incorporate that heat recovery so that the energy is as 383 00:19:40,796 --> 00:19:43,756 Speaker 2: low as possible. I often think about, you know, what 384 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:46,516 Speaker 2: is the energy that's required for us to hit one 385 00:19:46,596 --> 00:19:48,676 Speaker 2: hundred dollars per ton And we will talk about why 386 00:19:48,796 --> 00:19:51,956 Speaker 2: hundred dollars per ton in a minute for that project, 387 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:57,556 Speaker 2: about two mega wat hours pertennaco two And if we 388 00:19:57,876 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 2: adopted everything the cement industry alreadopted like, we could be 389 00:20:01,396 --> 00:20:04,636 Speaker 2: a lot lower than two mega what hours. So you're 390 00:20:04,636 --> 00:20:08,676 Speaker 2: not breaking physics in terms of the energy required to 391 00:20:08,676 --> 00:20:10,956 Speaker 2: get to that. So you know, for us, the main 392 00:20:10,996 --> 00:20:14,676 Speaker 2: goal is to make it as energy efficient as possible, 393 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:17,636 Speaker 2: recover heat, reuse the heat, and so forth, so that 394 00:20:18,156 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 2: you're not losing that heat to the atmosphere. 395 00:20:20,356 --> 00:20:22,476 Speaker 1: So you're saying you just have to be as efficient 396 00:20:22,716 --> 00:20:24,676 Speaker 1: as a industrial cement plant. 397 00:20:24,796 --> 00:20:26,076 Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying exactly? 398 00:20:26,876 --> 00:20:28,196 Speaker 1: I feel like it's harder than that. 399 00:20:28,276 --> 00:20:31,916 Speaker 2: Sound Well, it's harder because folks have not done this 400 00:20:32,316 --> 00:20:33,916 Speaker 2: yet for an electric kiln. 401 00:20:34,196 --> 00:20:38,036 Speaker 1: I see, there's a reason fossil fuel is awesome, right, Like, 402 00:20:38,156 --> 00:20:42,636 Speaker 1: it's incredibly efficient way to generate heat. It has one 403 00:20:42,676 --> 00:20:46,476 Speaker 1: notable downside which you're trying to fix. How many mega 404 00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:48,276 Speaker 1: wade hours per ton does it take you? Now? 405 00:20:49,116 --> 00:20:52,116 Speaker 2: It takes us maybe I want to say three ish 406 00:20:52,156 --> 00:20:52,916 Speaker 2: mega white hours. 407 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:54,756 Speaker 1: Okay, you got to get a third out of that. 408 00:20:54,836 --> 00:20:57,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, A lot of it is just heat recovery, right, 409 00:20:57,716 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 2: Like how the cement kilns have done it is they have, 410 00:21:00,956 --> 00:21:04,156 Speaker 2: you know, multiple decades of experience just figuring out how 411 00:21:04,196 --> 00:21:07,596 Speaker 2: to reuse the heat. And for us just doing that 412 00:21:07,636 --> 00:21:11,156 Speaker 2: with an electrical system with fossil fuel, you know, what 413 00:21:11,196 --> 00:21:13,356 Speaker 2: you're doing is you're spending a bunch of energy burning 414 00:21:13,396 --> 00:21:19,236 Speaker 2: that fuel that you don't get back with electrical it's renewable, right, 415 00:21:19,236 --> 00:21:21,636 Speaker 2: Like once you put in the energy, you can actually 416 00:21:21,716 --> 00:21:24,636 Speaker 2: use those electrical heating elements over and over again, so 417 00:21:24,716 --> 00:21:27,996 Speaker 2: overall thermal efficiency is actually higher. So that's actually what 418 00:21:28,076 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 2: makes me so excited that like we're getting closer and 419 00:21:30,716 --> 00:21:32,956 Speaker 2: closer to what's actually possible. 420 00:21:36,156 --> 00:21:49,916 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. Tell me what 421 00:21:49,956 --> 00:21:51,196 Speaker 1: you're working on in Louisiana. 422 00:21:52,196 --> 00:21:56,956 Speaker 2: We're building Project Cypress and this is a director capture 423 00:21:57,676 --> 00:22:02,196 Speaker 2: hub that is funded by the Department of Energy and 424 00:22:02,436 --> 00:22:06,236 Speaker 2: US along with our partner Client Works and BTEL. We're 425 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:07,596 Speaker 2: building a hub. 426 00:22:08,356 --> 00:22:11,436 Speaker 1: Clim Works is fans, right, using fans to do air capture. 427 00:22:11,436 --> 00:22:16,116 Speaker 1: They've they've been working in Iceland, right. And Battel is 428 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:18,316 Speaker 1: like a big what are they like an oil field 429 00:22:18,316 --> 00:22:20,396 Speaker 1: services coming to their big like industrial firm. Am I 430 00:22:20,396 --> 00:22:21,356 Speaker 1: thinking of the right company. 431 00:22:21,516 --> 00:22:26,236 Speaker 2: Battel is a engineering and procurement and their government contractor 432 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:30,116 Speaker 2: they're the hub owner and they're the ones interfacing with 433 00:22:30,316 --> 00:22:33,116 Speaker 2: the government because this is a public private partnership. 434 00:22:33,636 --> 00:22:35,876 Speaker 1: So how big is the thing you're building there, Like, 435 00:22:35,956 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 1: what's it going to look like? 436 00:22:37,676 --> 00:22:41,236 Speaker 2: It's multiple phases and it's going to scale up to 437 00:22:41,316 --> 00:22:44,476 Speaker 2: about a megaton one million tons of CO two removed 438 00:22:45,156 --> 00:22:46,956 Speaker 2: over the multiple phases of the project. 439 00:22:47,676 --> 00:22:49,636 Speaker 1: What you said about a million tons per year, right, 440 00:22:49,636 --> 00:22:53,076 Speaker 1: that's per year, and so that's like a big natural 441 00:22:53,076 --> 00:22:55,316 Speaker 1: gas power plant. That's about what that is, right, order 442 00:22:55,356 --> 00:22:56,556 Speaker 1: of magnitude. 443 00:22:56,036 --> 00:22:59,556 Speaker 2: In terms of coog omitted, it's about it's a very 444 00:22:59,636 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 2: large national gas. 445 00:23:00,516 --> 00:23:04,196 Speaker 1: Power maybe two maybe two x. Or are there something 446 00:23:04,396 --> 00:23:07,716 Speaker 1: like a thousand of those in the country five hundred 447 00:23:07,756 --> 00:23:08,556 Speaker 1: one thousand. 448 00:23:09,276 --> 00:23:12,716 Speaker 2: Right now, depending on you. Yeah, at least a thousand 449 00:23:12,756 --> 00:23:15,476 Speaker 2: across the world. There's yeah, multiple thousands. 450 00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:19,076 Speaker 1: When I was sort of figuring out that math, I 451 00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:22,836 Speaker 1: was praying for the interview, like I got disheartened, to 452 00:23:22,916 --> 00:23:25,276 Speaker 1: be honest, Like I was like, Oh, here's the great, 453 00:23:25,316 --> 00:23:28,076 Speaker 1: big one, and the government is supporting it and putting 454 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:30,316 Speaker 1: in hundreds of millions of dollars. Right, that's the order 455 00:23:30,316 --> 00:23:32,596 Speaker 1: of magnitude for this project. And it's like, oh my god, 456 00:23:32,676 --> 00:23:35,556 Speaker 1: it's just like one two little power plants and there's 457 00:23:35,596 --> 00:23:38,756 Speaker 1: like a thousand of them. I don't know, it just 458 00:23:38,836 --> 00:23:42,916 Speaker 1: felt so small when I did that math. Do you 459 00:23:42,956 --> 00:23:43,676 Speaker 1: feel that way? 460 00:23:43,796 --> 00:23:45,436 Speaker 2: Like how does it play for you if you just 461 00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:48,636 Speaker 2: take a step back and think about the climate problem? Right? 462 00:23:48,676 --> 00:23:51,636 Speaker 2: Like it's you know, if you're emitting fifty billion tons 463 00:23:51,636 --> 00:23:57,436 Speaker 2: of CO two into the air every year, you know, agriculture, automotive, shipping, airplanes, 464 00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:01,116 Speaker 2: all sorts of things are emitting SEO two oil and gas. 465 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:05,516 Speaker 1: Plants fifty billion, fifty thousand million, we're talking about one 466 00:24:05,556 --> 00:24:07,436 Speaker 1: million and then this is fifty thousand million. 467 00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:10,876 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know us about one hundred hundred and 468 00:24:10,916 --> 00:24:15,356 Speaker 2: fifty years of infrastructure. So, you know, I think when 469 00:24:15,396 --> 00:24:17,996 Speaker 2: we think about building a carbon and mobile industry, that 470 00:24:18,076 --> 00:24:23,676 Speaker 2: is essentially reversing that and removing that. You know, right now, 471 00:24:23,716 --> 00:24:26,236 Speaker 2: what we're focused on is creating a blueprint, creating a 472 00:24:26,276 --> 00:24:29,436 Speaker 2: template that we can emulate. We can if you make 473 00:24:29,476 --> 00:24:32,316 Speaker 2: this so cheap, right, if you make this so cheap 474 00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:36,516 Speaker 2: such that it's an economic no brainer and it uses 475 00:24:36,556 --> 00:24:39,156 Speaker 2: materials that are very abundant and scalable, and you can 476 00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:42,956 Speaker 2: emulate this all across the world, then I think making 477 00:24:42,996 --> 00:24:45,756 Speaker 2: this a blueprint and showing that it is scalable, that's 478 00:24:45,796 --> 00:24:47,916 Speaker 2: really the first goal of what we're trying to do. 479 00:24:48,476 --> 00:24:52,076 Speaker 2: And this is not dissimilar to the first utility solar 480 00:24:52,116 --> 00:24:54,676 Speaker 2: plant that was built in two thousand and nine twenty 481 00:24:54,796 --> 00:24:57,316 Speaker 2: ten in the US where it took us multiple years 482 00:24:57,356 --> 00:24:59,956 Speaker 2: and lots of government subsidies. But once we build that, 483 00:25:00,436 --> 00:25:02,716 Speaker 2: now we're building them every week. 484 00:25:03,356 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 1: Yeah, solar is a good model of like an incredibly 485 00:25:05,956 --> 00:25:08,636 Speaker 1: fast ramp, right. And it is amazing when you look 486 00:25:08,676 --> 00:25:12,716 Speaker 1: at those estimates from like big credible government organizations over 487 00:25:12,716 --> 00:25:15,076 Speaker 1: the last fifteen years of how big is solar going 488 00:25:15,116 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 1: to be? Like every year they underestimate what's going to 489 00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:20,516 Speaker 1: happen the next year. Right, The line keeps getting steeper, 490 00:25:20,916 --> 00:25:23,636 Speaker 1: So I guess that's a good model. Right, And that 491 00:25:23,836 --> 00:25:26,556 Speaker 1: is a model of just like it just got so cheap, right, 492 00:25:26,556 --> 00:25:27,596 Speaker 1: because it's so simple. 493 00:25:27,876 --> 00:25:30,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just so simple. There's so many things we 494 00:25:30,196 --> 00:25:33,236 Speaker 2: can learn from solar. One is the cost floor and 495 00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:35,956 Speaker 2: the abundance of materials that went into making these solar 496 00:25:35,956 --> 00:25:40,076 Speaker 2: panels and silicon basically sand is the raw material for 497 00:25:40,116 --> 00:25:43,116 Speaker 2: making those solar panels. And the cost floor for the 498 00:25:43,156 --> 00:25:45,556 Speaker 2: solar panel is so cheap that the more you make them, 499 00:25:45,556 --> 00:25:47,876 Speaker 2: the cheaper it got. And the second thing that we 500 00:25:47,916 --> 00:25:51,596 Speaker 2: can learn from it is the adoption really started taking 501 00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:55,596 Speaker 2: off in ways that humans found it very hard to predict. 502 00:25:56,156 --> 00:26:00,996 Speaker 2: Is grid parity. Once the cost became as cheap or 503 00:26:01,076 --> 00:26:04,636 Speaker 2: cheaper than the cost of electricity from other sources in 504 00:26:04,676 --> 00:26:08,516 Speaker 2: the grid. It was an economic no brainer to all 505 00:26:08,556 --> 00:26:11,236 Speaker 2: of his deploy because it was always the cheapest thing 506 00:26:11,716 --> 00:26:14,316 Speaker 2: for us. How do you translate that into a director 507 00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 2: capture one, you know, use abandoned materials, use cheap materials. 508 00:26:18,076 --> 00:26:20,236 Speaker 2: Whereas you the more you deploy, the more you learn, 509 00:26:20,276 --> 00:26:22,396 Speaker 2: the cheaper it gets. So if you're doing that with 510 00:26:22,476 --> 00:26:26,276 Speaker 2: limestone and you're seeing those learning rates every year, And 511 00:26:26,316 --> 00:26:28,396 Speaker 2: the second thing is, you know what is that cost? 512 00:26:28,556 --> 00:26:32,196 Speaker 2: Where does that real adoption come in? And you know, 513 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 2: for us, we think that's probably around two fifty three 514 00:26:35,796 --> 00:26:39,036 Speaker 2: hundred dollars per ton. And that's where it really starts 515 00:26:39,076 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 2: to say, okay, like removing carbon starts to be an 516 00:26:43,476 --> 00:26:47,836 Speaker 2: economically cheaper thing to do than say other types of 517 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:50,836 Speaker 2: hard to decarbonized methods. And that's when you start turning 518 00:26:50,836 --> 00:26:53,676 Speaker 2: the flywheel to further reduce the costs down to one 519 00:26:53,756 --> 00:26:54,636 Speaker 2: hundred dollars per ton. 520 00:26:54,956 --> 00:26:57,316 Speaker 1: I mean, there is a problem that you have that 521 00:26:57,356 --> 00:27:00,636 Speaker 1: director capture has that solar doesn't, right, which is people 522 00:27:00,676 --> 00:27:03,596 Speaker 1: are paying for electric power already, and if I pay 523 00:27:03,596 --> 00:27:08,996 Speaker 1: for electricity, I get electricity. And there is this basic 524 00:27:09,156 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 1: public goods problem with direct air capture, which is I 525 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:15,476 Speaker 1: pay for direct air capture, everybody gets the benefit of it, 526 00:27:15,516 --> 00:27:18,196 Speaker 1: and I get literally like one five billionth of the 527 00:27:18,196 --> 00:27:21,956 Speaker 1: benefit of it. Right, So that is a profound problem. 528 00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:24,276 Speaker 1: How does that look to you? How are we going 529 00:27:24,356 --> 00:27:25,236 Speaker 1: to deal with that one? 530 00:27:25,516 --> 00:27:29,796 Speaker 2: So the way to think about public goods generally, and 531 00:27:29,916 --> 00:27:31,196 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, there needs to be 532 00:27:31,236 --> 00:27:33,236 Speaker 2: a price on carbon in some way, shape or another, 533 00:27:33,316 --> 00:27:35,716 Speaker 2: and different economies approach the problem differently. 534 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:39,116 Speaker 1: A price on carbon imposed by the gum Like the 535 00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:41,916 Speaker 1: government has to pass a law that says if you emit, 536 00:27:42,236 --> 00:27:44,076 Speaker 1: you have to pay a tax, or there's a cap 537 00:27:44,156 --> 00:27:46,516 Speaker 1: and trade or something exactly. 538 00:27:46,996 --> 00:27:51,556 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're seeing this. United Kingdom's emissions trading scheme 539 00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:56,916 Speaker 2: just started to incorporate carbon removal into their cap and 540 00:27:56,956 --> 00:27:57,516 Speaker 2: trade scheme. 541 00:27:58,036 --> 00:28:00,356 Speaker 1: Is that good for you? Does that mean companies in 542 00:28:00,396 --> 00:28:02,596 Speaker 1: the UK can come to you and pay you to 543 00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:04,756 Speaker 1: stick carbon in the ground and get the credit they need. 544 00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:08,116 Speaker 2: That's a direction that they're going. So economies across the 545 00:28:08,156 --> 00:28:11,916 Speaker 2: world are coming up with schemes where carbon removal is 546 00:28:11,956 --> 00:28:17,276 Speaker 2: integrated into how they think about broader climate mitigation. Carbon 547 00:28:17,316 --> 00:28:20,556 Speaker 2: will be priced one wayship or another. And for us, 548 00:28:20,876 --> 00:28:24,116 Speaker 2: what that means is that while those markets are coming 549 00:28:24,156 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 2: online and getting more robust, or do we get off 550 00:28:27,076 --> 00:28:29,876 Speaker 2: the ground. And you know that's where Frontier and Microsoft. 551 00:28:30,156 --> 00:28:33,236 Speaker 2: You know, these folks have been incredibly catalytic. 552 00:28:32,956 --> 00:28:38,156 Speaker 1: Basically companies, companies that are paying for director capture now exactly. 553 00:28:38,636 --> 00:28:42,316 Speaker 2: I often compare them to you know what Germany did 554 00:28:42,556 --> 00:28:45,276 Speaker 2: to solar in two thousand and six. You know, they essentially, 555 00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:49,916 Speaker 2: you know, catalyzed the demand and helped bring down the cost. 556 00:28:50,076 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 1: They created a subsidy, right, the government created a big 557 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:54,436 Speaker 1: subsidy that was sort of the birth of the modern 558 00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:55,476 Speaker 1: solar power movement. 559 00:28:55,796 --> 00:28:56,276 Speaker 2: Exactly. 560 00:28:56,636 --> 00:28:59,196 Speaker 1: Tell me about what's happening politically in the US for 561 00:28:59,236 --> 00:29:00,196 Speaker 1: a director capture. 562 00:29:00,996 --> 00:29:05,596 Speaker 2: Director capture is an interesting one politically because we've generally 563 00:29:05,636 --> 00:29:09,276 Speaker 2: found pretty good bipartisan support for it. I think the 564 00:29:09,276 --> 00:29:11,596 Speaker 2: best way to put is forty five Q. Forty five 565 00:29:11,676 --> 00:29:14,396 Speaker 2: Q is a tax credit. It's one hundred and eighty 566 00:29:14,436 --> 00:29:17,356 Speaker 2: dollars per ton that the government payss for every time 567 00:29:17,356 --> 00:29:19,716 Speaker 2: a CO two vise a questor underground. 568 00:29:19,916 --> 00:29:23,076 Speaker 1: Which is a lot. That's a really significant subsidy. 569 00:29:23,156 --> 00:29:27,436 Speaker 2: Essentially, it's huge, it's essentially the US putting a price 570 00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:31,756 Speaker 2: on carbon for director capture. Right, So before the IRA 571 00:29:32,316 --> 00:29:35,316 Speaker 2: it was fifty and IRA increased to one eighty. And 572 00:29:35,836 --> 00:29:39,596 Speaker 2: the most recent one, Big Beautiful Bill has preserved it 573 00:29:39,636 --> 00:29:41,116 Speaker 2: and it actually enhanced it. 574 00:29:42,036 --> 00:29:45,796 Speaker 1: That is surprising, I think on a certain level. Right. 575 00:29:45,836 --> 00:29:49,396 Speaker 1: I mean, clearly many of the sort of energy transition 576 00:29:49,596 --> 00:29:53,876 Speaker 1: climate change subsidies from the IRA were reduced or eliminated 577 00:29:53,996 --> 00:29:56,436 Speaker 1: in the Big Beautiful Bill and the bill that just passed. 578 00:29:56,996 --> 00:30:01,796 Speaker 1: Why did director capture subsidies survive when others got eliminated? 579 00:30:02,836 --> 00:30:06,836 Speaker 2: I think generally the way to think about DAK is 580 00:30:06,956 --> 00:30:11,196 Speaker 2: you're producing COEOTO molecules from the air and you can 581 00:30:11,276 --> 00:30:15,276 Speaker 2: use THEOTO molecules support underground for removals, or you can 582 00:30:15,356 --> 00:30:20,876 Speaker 2: use THEOTO molecules to make synthetic fuels for ships and planes. 583 00:30:21,836 --> 00:30:23,796 Speaker 1: You can also use them to get more oil out 584 00:30:23,836 --> 00:30:25,556 Speaker 1: of the ground. Right, this is the thing some people 585 00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:26,316 Speaker 1: do with them. 586 00:30:26,796 --> 00:30:28,916 Speaker 2: This is a thing that some people do. Yeah. So 587 00:30:29,556 --> 00:30:34,236 Speaker 2: I think what the technology is a platform. What it 588 00:30:34,276 --> 00:30:37,316 Speaker 2: gave for boths in the aisle are it's both a 589 00:30:37,436 --> 00:30:41,596 Speaker 2: climate and mitigation tool, and it contributes to us being 590 00:30:41,676 --> 00:30:43,196 Speaker 2: able to produce a lot more energy. 591 00:30:43,516 --> 00:30:44,116 Speaker 1: Uh, huh. 592 00:30:44,196 --> 00:30:46,156 Speaker 2: You know, in this case, you know synthetic fuels like 593 00:30:46,236 --> 00:30:47,236 Speaker 2: clean energy, so you. 594 00:30:47,156 --> 00:30:50,156 Speaker 1: Can tell the sort of energy dominance story. It's kind 595 00:30:50,156 --> 00:30:52,356 Speaker 1: of a drill baby, drill story if you want it 596 00:30:52,396 --> 00:30:53,396 Speaker 1: to be well. 597 00:30:53,676 --> 00:30:55,796 Speaker 2: In this case, I think there are ways to make 598 00:30:55,996 --> 00:30:59,116 Speaker 2: low carbon synthetic fuels. And as you know, you've signed 599 00:30:59,116 --> 00:31:00,796 Speaker 2: a partnership with United. 600 00:31:01,076 --> 00:31:03,396 Speaker 1: Well talk about that with United Airlines. So talk about 601 00:31:03,396 --> 00:31:04,076 Speaker 1: that partnership. 602 00:31:04,196 --> 00:31:06,796 Speaker 2: It's a strategic partnership where they're both investor in the 603 00:31:06,836 --> 00:31:10,636 Speaker 2: company and an off take agreement for the future. It's 604 00:31:10,676 --> 00:31:12,996 Speaker 2: five hundred thousand tons of CO two that they have 605 00:31:13,036 --> 00:31:18,716 Speaker 2: an option to either choose to store underground or utilize 606 00:31:18,716 --> 00:31:23,116 Speaker 2: it to make low carbon synthetic fuels, sustainable aviation fuels 607 00:31:23,676 --> 00:31:24,956 Speaker 2: to run their planes. 608 00:31:25,396 --> 00:31:27,916 Speaker 1: And so in that ladder universe, it's sort of turning 609 00:31:28,076 --> 00:31:31,276 Speaker 1: airplane fuel into a circular economy. Like they fly the 610 00:31:31,316 --> 00:31:33,516 Speaker 1: plane and that emits CO two and then you capture 611 00:31:33,516 --> 00:31:35,396 Speaker 1: CO two and turn it into more fuel. That's the 612 00:31:35,436 --> 00:31:38,596 Speaker 1: model there. I mean, the political valance of director capture 613 00:31:38,676 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 1: is really interesting. An oil company owns the biggest director 614 00:31:41,716 --> 00:31:44,796 Speaker 1: capture facility in the US, right, and then on this 615 00:31:44,876 --> 00:31:49,156 Speaker 1: sort of relatively far left, you have director capture skepticism, right, 616 00:31:49,196 --> 00:31:52,196 Speaker 1: People who are like it just will give people permission 617 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:55,916 Speaker 1: to keep burning fossil fuels and not transition fast enough. 618 00:31:57,036 --> 00:32:01,076 Speaker 2: As you know, the problem is just so so massive 619 00:32:01,716 --> 00:32:06,276 Speaker 2: that I think the argument of this will only continue 620 00:32:06,316 --> 00:32:08,276 Speaker 2: what we're doing. It's hard to see much of many 621 00:32:08,356 --> 00:32:09,796 Speaker 2: lakes to it because at the end of the day, 622 00:32:09,796 --> 00:32:12,196 Speaker 2: we need to reduce as much as possible, Like you know, 623 00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:15,596 Speaker 2: first we need to reduce emissions in all sorts of 624 00:32:15,596 --> 00:32:19,516 Speaker 2: different things, and anything that we cannot reduce we should remove. 625 00:32:19,596 --> 00:32:24,996 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, the slower we reduce, the slower we decarbonize, 626 00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:28,276 Speaker 2: the bigger and the bigger gap that we have. Yeah, 627 00:32:28,476 --> 00:32:31,476 Speaker 2: that we're you know, the removal gap just gets bigger 628 00:32:31,516 --> 00:32:33,636 Speaker 2: and bigger. And that's what's happening right now. 629 00:32:34,516 --> 00:32:36,596 Speaker 1: Why did you get into the director capture business? 630 00:32:37,956 --> 00:32:41,636 Speaker 2: I think a couple of reasons. One is the size 631 00:32:41,636 --> 00:32:44,596 Speaker 2: of the problem was so massive, and the number of 632 00:32:44,636 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 2: people working on it as rigorously and with the right 633 00:32:48,276 --> 00:32:51,956 Speaker 2: approach that I thought was right was just limited. When 634 00:32:52,076 --> 00:32:53,196 Speaker 2: first Guards started. 635 00:32:53,156 --> 00:32:55,036 Speaker 1: You looked at what people were doing in carbon removal, 636 00:32:55,076 --> 00:32:55,876 Speaker 1: and what did you think. 637 00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:59,516 Speaker 2: I thought either they were not as scalable or they 638 00:32:59,556 --> 00:33:00,596 Speaker 2: would be too expensive. 639 00:33:01,236 --> 00:33:02,356 Speaker 1: You thought you could do better. 640 00:33:03,396 --> 00:33:07,036 Speaker 2: I could do better. So I mean, at the end 641 00:33:07,036 --> 00:33:10,116 Speaker 2: of the day, like hopefully there will be fifty hundred companies, 642 00:33:10,236 --> 00:33:13,676 Speaker 2: massive companies, just like there's fifty two hundred basket of 643 00:33:13,716 --> 00:33:16,756 Speaker 2: oil and companies that remove carbon. Each have a different approach. 644 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:20,076 Speaker 2: And I think what attracted me to director capture also 645 00:33:20,636 --> 00:33:23,036 Speaker 2: is just the level of impact you can have. I 646 00:33:23,036 --> 00:33:26,556 Speaker 2: mean technically, you know, because the abundance of limestone is 647 00:33:26,556 --> 00:33:30,436 Speaker 2: so hi, the impact is infinitively scalable. Right, There's not 648 00:33:30,516 --> 00:33:33,716 Speaker 2: many solutions you can say you can scale it up 649 00:33:33,716 --> 00:33:35,036 Speaker 2: to hundreds of gigatons. 650 00:33:36,196 --> 00:33:40,556 Speaker 1: Hundreds of gigatons would be carbon negative as a world 651 00:33:40,596 --> 00:33:41,076 Speaker 1: if it were. 652 00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:43,076 Speaker 2: That big, right, right, And we need to do that 653 00:33:43,116 --> 00:33:45,356 Speaker 2: this century. First, the goal is to get to net 654 00:33:45,476 --> 00:33:48,316 Speaker 2: zero as a society, hopefully by twenty fifty. Yeah, and 655 00:33:48,716 --> 00:33:51,516 Speaker 2: IPCC predicts that from twenty fifty to twenty one hundred 656 00:33:51,836 --> 00:33:53,436 Speaker 2: we are in the negative territory. 657 00:33:53,476 --> 00:33:56,716 Speaker 1: So we're net negative, sucking more carbon dioxide out of 658 00:33:56,716 --> 00:33:59,276 Speaker 1: the air than we are emitting. Yeah, do you think 659 00:33:59,316 --> 00:34:00,836 Speaker 1: that'll happen? Yeah? 660 00:34:00,836 --> 00:34:02,836 Speaker 2: I mean I think I take my cues from solar 661 00:34:02,836 --> 00:34:03,196 Speaker 2: and wind. 662 00:34:03,756 --> 00:34:05,836 Speaker 1: You want solar more than wind, right, yeah. 663 00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:07,916 Speaker 2: Yeah, you want solar more than wind for sure. I 664 00:34:07,916 --> 00:34:12,476 Speaker 2: think once you get to a cost that is societally 665 00:34:13,316 --> 00:34:16,956 Speaker 2: acceptable and affordable, it will take a life of its 666 00:34:16,956 --> 00:34:19,756 Speaker 2: own in terms of its scale. And obviously you want 667 00:34:19,796 --> 00:34:23,396 Speaker 2: the you know, carbon markets, compliance markets to incorporate the 668 00:34:23,476 --> 00:34:25,396 Speaker 2: price of carbon across the world as well. But I 669 00:34:25,436 --> 00:34:27,516 Speaker 2: think there's a flywheel there as well. You know, as 670 00:34:27,556 --> 00:34:30,396 Speaker 2: you deploy more, it gets cheaper. And I think that 671 00:34:31,236 --> 00:34:35,356 Speaker 2: it will happen because you know, there is a future 672 00:34:35,476 --> 00:34:38,276 Speaker 2: that we can create, a future of abundance where you know, 673 00:34:38,316 --> 00:34:40,756 Speaker 2: we can have all the intelligence we want, we can have, 674 00:34:41,156 --> 00:34:43,036 Speaker 2: you know, all the things that we want, and we 675 00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:46,516 Speaker 2: can take care of the planet provided that it is affordable. 676 00:34:47,236 --> 00:34:48,916 Speaker 2: That's why this one hundred dollars per ten I think 677 00:34:48,996 --> 00:34:51,396 Speaker 2: is so important. Where I do think at that point, 678 00:34:51,956 --> 00:34:54,236 Speaker 2: the closer we get there, the faster it scales up. 679 00:34:56,996 --> 00:35:10,636 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the liking round. Okay, 680 00:35:10,716 --> 00:35:12,836 Speaker 1: I want to ask you some lightning round questions. Now, 681 00:35:14,156 --> 00:35:16,796 Speaker 1: what was one thing that was really striking to you 682 00:35:17,156 --> 00:35:20,636 Speaker 1: when you were in eighth grade and you moved from 683 00:35:21,076 --> 00:35:27,356 Speaker 1: Southeast India to Maine. 684 00:35:25,196 --> 00:35:27,636 Speaker 2: Man, so many things. Let me think about that for 685 00:35:27,636 --> 00:35:33,236 Speaker 2: a sec. Yeah, there was a lot of culture shock, 686 00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:37,756 Speaker 2: academic shock, language shock for a twelve year old kid 687 00:35:37,756 --> 00:35:42,236 Speaker 2: to be dropped into bangor Maine coming from India. It 688 00:35:42,316 --> 00:35:44,436 Speaker 2: was very interesting. To make it simple, but I think, 689 00:35:44,596 --> 00:35:47,236 Speaker 2: you know, one thing that I found, which I'm actually 690 00:35:47,236 --> 00:35:51,436 Speaker 2: grateful for, the way that the education system in India 691 00:35:51,836 --> 00:35:55,476 Speaker 2: grew up was very much like memory based. I think 692 00:35:55,516 --> 00:35:59,036 Speaker 2: what I really appreciated moving to the US at that 693 00:35:59,116 --> 00:36:01,916 Speaker 2: age is sort of that flip in to thinking of 694 00:36:02,076 --> 00:36:04,876 Speaker 2: being a lot more analytical, a lot more vigorous, which 695 00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:06,436 Speaker 2: I just found a lot more natural. 696 00:36:07,396 --> 00:36:10,356 Speaker 1: I heard you say in another interview that companies fail 697 00:36:10,676 --> 00:36:14,516 Speaker 1: because they stop having difficult conversations, and so I'm curious, 698 00:36:14,516 --> 00:36:18,676 Speaker 1: what is a recent difficult conversation that you had at work? Yeah. 699 00:36:18,716 --> 00:36:21,316 Speaker 2: You know, one of our main principles is radical honesty. 700 00:36:21,436 --> 00:36:23,996 Speaker 2: It's one of our three main principles, and for so 701 00:36:24,036 --> 00:36:25,996 Speaker 2: many reasons, it's the right thing to do. Right. It's 702 00:36:26,036 --> 00:36:30,196 Speaker 2: you know, pursuing physics, pursuing truth, pursuing merit, and you know, 703 00:36:30,236 --> 00:36:33,356 Speaker 2: how do you create a culture where it's vulnerable and 704 00:36:33,436 --> 00:36:37,556 Speaker 2: open and safe to have honest and difficult conversations and 705 00:36:37,836 --> 00:36:40,796 Speaker 2: once you get it, it's it's really amazing. For example, 706 00:36:40,876 --> 00:36:44,116 Speaker 2: yesterday I was given feedback by one of my reports 707 00:36:44,436 --> 00:36:48,916 Speaker 2: around asking a individual contributor for their time working on 708 00:36:48,996 --> 00:36:52,596 Speaker 2: a project without working with the manager on exactly the 709 00:36:52,596 --> 00:36:53,116 Speaker 2: scope of it. 710 00:36:53,436 --> 00:36:55,316 Speaker 1: So somebody who was like, hey, don't ask this person 711 00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:57,316 Speaker 1: to do this thing without asking their manager if they 712 00:36:57,356 --> 00:36:58,436 Speaker 1: have time in surance? 713 00:36:58,516 --> 00:37:01,316 Speaker 2: Right, pretty straightforward, right, you know, because the manager has 714 00:37:01,676 --> 00:37:04,476 Speaker 2: understanding of the fool and doing the scope and a 715 00:37:04,516 --> 00:37:07,076 Speaker 2: lot of the times, like this type of feedback is like, ah, 716 00:37:07,276 --> 00:37:08,596 Speaker 2: I don't know if this is worth talking to the 717 00:37:08,676 --> 00:37:12,276 Speaker 2: CEO out right, but like this person fall safe enough 718 00:37:12,316 --> 00:37:13,796 Speaker 2: to share with me, and I was so proud of 719 00:37:13,836 --> 00:37:16,676 Speaker 2: it that it's like, man, thank you for sharing this. 720 00:37:16,956 --> 00:37:19,196 Speaker 2: I could have just spent an extra minute thinking about 721 00:37:19,636 --> 00:37:21,836 Speaker 2: how to approach that conversation and then this person fell 722 00:37:21,916 --> 00:37:23,836 Speaker 2: safe enough to do it. And one thing I'd tell 723 00:37:23,876 --> 00:37:27,316 Speaker 2: other founders is, you know there isn't inherently that power dynamic. 724 00:37:27,676 --> 00:37:30,076 Speaker 2: You know, the emperor has no clothes, right, Like, how 725 00:37:30,076 --> 00:37:32,876 Speaker 2: do you create a culture, how do you create a 726 00:37:32,876 --> 00:37:37,476 Speaker 2: bi directional feedback loop between leaders and folks working on 727 00:37:37,516 --> 00:37:45,356 Speaker 2: the problem at the core every day. 728 00:37:46,316 --> 00:37:51,916 Speaker 1: Shashank Samala is the co founder and CEO of Airloom. 729 00:37:51,956 --> 00:37:55,316 Speaker 1: Please email us at problem at pushkin dot fm. We 730 00:37:55,356 --> 00:37:59,076 Speaker 1: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 731 00:37:59,076 --> 00:38:02,916 Speaker 1: show was produced by Trinomanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang. It 732 00:38:03,076 --> 00:38:07,036 Speaker 1: was edited by Alexander Garretton and engineered by Sarah Bruguerrett. 733 00:38:07,276 --> 00:38:09,436 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 734 00:38:09,476 --> 00:38:18,316 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Problem 735 00:38:21,756 --> 00:38:22,076 Speaker 2: MHM.