1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 2 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe 4 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: McCormick and Robert, I want to tell you a story 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:23,960 Speaker 1: about visions of frog hearts dancing in the void. Do tell? Okay? 6 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:29,320 Speaker 1: So In ninety six, the German American pharmacologist and physician 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 1: Otto Loewis and the English pharmacologist Henry Dale together won 8 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,560 Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize for Physiology and Medicine for their discoveries 9 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: about how signals travel between nerve cells and then from 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,680 Speaker 1: nerve cells two organs in the body. Back then, this 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: wasn't specifically known, like how does the nervous system transmit 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: information back and forth? People thought, you know, maybe maybe 13 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: it's electrical. We discovered electricity at the time. What exactly 14 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: is going on there? And specifically, what they found is 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: that chemicals were involved often sending these impulses back and 16 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:05,240 Speaker 1: forth in the nervous system. And in one famous experiment, 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: Otto Lowy and some colleagues first slowed down the beating 18 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: of a frog's heart by stimulating the vagus nerve connected 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: to it. Now, that's the thing that they knew already 20 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:17,600 Speaker 1: at the time they could do, if you stimulate the 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: vegas nerve, you can make the heartbeat decrease in rate. 22 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: Then they took fluid from the slowed down heart and 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 1: perfused a second frog's heart with that fluid from the 24 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: slow beating first heart. Now the second frog heart also 25 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: slowed down, even though no nerves had been stimulated, and 26 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: this provided evidence that some chemical property of the fluid 27 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,400 Speaker 1: from the first heart had effects on the nerve cells 28 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: in the second heart. Essentially that chemicals controlled nervous tissue behavior, 29 00:01:51,320 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: and the chemical that slowed down the heartbeat was originally 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: called vegas stuff that's a good German name for it um, 31 00:01:58,040 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: but now we know it to be a setal cullen. 32 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: And then in a related experiment, Lois showed that you 33 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: could speed up a frog heart with fluid from another 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: heart whose accelerated nerve had been stimulated. So Louie had 35 00:02:09,560 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: hypothesized for many years that chemical transmission might have been 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: the basis of the nervous system, but had been unable 37 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:20,359 Speaker 1: to prove it, and then these experiments eventually proved pretty 38 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: decisive in demonstrating the chemical nature of nerve cell communication 39 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: that there's some chemical property being traded back and forth. 40 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: So where did Lowie get the idea for this breakthrough experiment. 41 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,960 Speaker 1: There is a very strange story about that. According to 42 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: Lowie in his own words, quote the night before Easter 43 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: Sunday of nineteen twenty, I awoke, turned on the light, 44 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: and jotted down a few notes on a tiny slip 45 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: of thin paper. Then I fell asleep again. It occurred 46 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: to me at six o'clock in the morning that during 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: the night I had written down something important, but I 48 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: was unable to decipher the scrull. The next night, at 49 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: three o'clock, the idea returned. He was the design of 50 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: an experiment to determine whether or not the hypothesis of 51 00:03:04,480 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: chemical transmission that I had undered seventeen years ago was correct. 52 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: I got up, immediately went to the laboratory and performed 53 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 1: a simple experiment on a frog heart according to the 54 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 1: nocturnal design. So we're talking about dream inspiration here. We're 55 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: talking about the idea that the breakthrough, that dramatic twist 56 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: in the researcher story uh comes from the world of dreams. 57 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: Right now, all we have to go on here is 58 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 1: Louie's own words, right, I mean, who knows whether the 59 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: dream is as he says it was a direct imagistic 60 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 1: inspiration for the experiment that would later prove pretty decisive 61 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: in showing the chemical transmission of nerve impulses. But that's 62 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: what he says, and he is not alone in telling 63 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: a story like this about a breakthrough experiment, discovery, invention, 64 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: artistic innovation. This is a very common type of story 65 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: among people who are often characterized as geniuses. Right, Yeah, 66 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:02,680 Speaker 1: you see this all the time, and certainly just the 67 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: idea of dream inspiration or something more supernatural, something more 68 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: magical communication through a dream, such as from the divine. 69 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: These tales go back throughout our our various religions and mythologies. Yeah. Now, 70 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: one of the things that I've always thought is kind 71 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: of interesting about the idea of dream inspiration is that 72 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: it is taken to be an inherently supernatural thing in 73 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,080 Speaker 1: these ancient stories, Right, Like the gods visit you in 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 1: a dream and they give you some kind of insight 75 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: or they give you the solution to a problem, and 76 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: it's just accepted that that is a supernatural deliverance that 77 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: could not have been accessed by the person themselves. But 78 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 1: what do our brains do? I mean, our brains think 79 00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: our brains figure things out. It does not actually seem 80 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: all that strange to me. You're in need of a 81 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: supernatural explanation that the brain could be figuring things out 82 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: and gaining insights during sleep. No, not at all. And 83 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: we'll get into the some of the science behind this 84 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: as we proceed, but I think a couple of things 85 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,040 Speaker 1: are crucial here. So we talked about the the idea 86 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: of the distinction between religious dreams of inspiration in these 87 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: scientific dreams. But ultimately, the realm of sleep is a 88 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: realm of mystery, and in olden days, uh, for the 89 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: most part, dreams were a realm of religious mystery. To 90 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: a scientific individual, then the dreams are still a dream, 91 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: is still a realm of mystery, but it is a 92 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: realm of cognitive mystery, of scientific mystery and verifiable discovery. Right. Yeah, 93 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: And so in either realm, though, it seems natural that 94 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: that answers might arise from them, and when they do, 95 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: they can fulfill a vital storytelling role because nobody wants 96 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: to hear this exchange. Oh that's a tremendous breakthrough. Dr Brundle, 97 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: How did you, uh, how did you come across that breakthrough? 98 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: You don't want the answer to beate, Well, I worked 99 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: really hard and I thought about it a lot, and 100 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: uh eventually work through the problem. No, you want to 101 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 1: hear something like well, I was. I was working really 102 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: hard on the problem and I couldn't quite crack it. 103 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,600 Speaker 1: And then I had a dream or some variation at 104 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: or then I bumped my head while standing on the 105 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: toilet to hang a clock. That would be the case 106 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 1: of doctor the fictional Dr Emmett Brown and back to 107 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: the future, right, And that was when I saw it, 108 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: the flux capacitor. Yeah. I think another variation on this is, oh, 109 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: I didn't know how to work out this detail, so 110 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,239 Speaker 1: I went on a walk in nature. Or I alight 111 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 1: took an hallucinogenic drug into bet. You know, these are 112 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: the different answers that sort of answers you often see 113 00:06:30,720 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: thrown out there when creative minds, either artistic or scientific, 114 00:06:34,440 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: are trying to crack something. You want there to be 115 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: this dramatic turning point. Yeah, and and if we broaden 116 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: it beyond dreams, just to the idea of sudden unexpected 117 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: realizations in the pursuit of say scientific knowledge or experiment design, 118 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: or breakthroughs in math or anything like that. There are 119 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: even more examples of this, and we're going to talk 120 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: about plenty of examples where people think that a dream 121 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: or a period of sleep gave of them the answer 122 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: to something or gave them a breakthrough. But I remember 123 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: hearing the story that apparently Einstein, you know, he said 124 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,000 Speaker 1: he had to be careful shaving because suddenly ideas would 125 00:07:10,040 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: just leap into his mind while he was shaving. He'd 126 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: be careful not to cut himself. I don't know if 127 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: that story is true, but it is a story. It 128 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: sounds great, Yeah, it does. And if your experience is 129 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: anything like mine, I've never discovered anything on the scale 130 00:07:21,640 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 1: of Einstein, but I feel like I that rings true 131 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: of the characteristics of my thoughts sometimes, like I often 132 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,240 Speaker 1: don't know from where what feel like my best insights arise. 133 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: You don't necessarily come from sitting down and concentrating real 134 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: hard on a problem until you arrive at the solution. 135 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: You're doing something else and then suddenly it just hits you, 136 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: as if out of the void. Yeah, an an Eureka 137 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: moment does often feel like something from outside yourself, and 138 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: therefore I think it lends itself to these type of stories. 139 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,120 Speaker 1: Like for my own part, my dreams don't really give 140 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: me a lot of inspiration these days. They're generally more 141 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 1: about anxieties and petty fears. There's just just petty stuff, 142 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: like petty day planning type type situations. But some of 143 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: my best creative thinking, either, of course, comes during the 144 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,239 Speaker 1: act of writing. We know that that that that free 145 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: flow mode of creative activity, or when I'm swimming laps, 146 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: like when I when my perhaps when my my brain 147 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: is is forced to operate in a slightly different way. 148 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: That's when I can suddenly start making connections that I 149 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: am not making the rest of my waking time. I 150 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: often feel like the most creative I am any time, ever, 151 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: is the time between when I wake up and when 152 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: I get out of bed. That's for me, that's my 153 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: most disoriented time. I don't know where I am or 154 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: what I was working on. All I know is that 155 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 1: the cat is making a lot of noise, and I'm 156 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: afraid that a banshee has manifested in the house. So 157 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 1: I guess we should talk about some more examples of 158 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: these anecdotes. At least where people claim to have made 159 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: major breakthroughs or discoveries or solved problems in dreams or 160 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: during periods of sleep. There's this great quote from John 161 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: Steinbeck where he writes in his nineteen four novel Suite 162 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,199 Speaker 1: Thursday Quote, it is a common experience that a problem 163 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:20,200 Speaker 1: difficult at night is resolved in the morning, after the 164 00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: Committee of Sleep has worked on it. Yes. And actually 165 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,679 Speaker 1: one of the authors and researchers we're going to talk 166 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: about in this episode today Deadre Barrett, who is a 167 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: psychologist who works on dreams and sleep creativity. She took 168 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 1: that phrase the Committee of Sleep and made it into 169 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,959 Speaker 1: a title of a book she wrote about dreams and creativity. Now, 170 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: we've talked about dreams and stuff to blow your mind 171 00:09:41,960 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: quite a bit over the years. Again, it's this realm 172 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 1: of mystery. We can't help but study and discuss it, 173 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: how we interpret them, how we might manipulate them, and 174 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: what they're actually for. And there is no consensus on 175 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 1: the purpose of dreams. I thought that we might just 176 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: play a clip from a previous interview that we conducted 177 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: with Dr Moran surf Uh We talked to us in 178 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: our episode the nine dream Worlds of Frederick van eden 179 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: uh and I. And this is his response to to 180 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: my question, is there a consensus on the purpose of dreams? 181 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: There isn't. There are like five different theories that try 182 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: to explain what dreams are full, and they range from 183 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: therefore nothing to they're the most important things that our 184 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: brain can do. So here's like the kind of layout 185 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 1: of those. One of the theo is says that dreams 186 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: are basically our brain's way of defragmenting the hard lives 187 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,679 Speaker 1: you kind of overnight. You have to choose which wem 188 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: always to erase, which ones to keep, and your brains 189 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 1: sort them out. And because you see the visuals, if 190 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: you want of those mem always passing by, you create 191 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: a narrative of that, and this is what you call 192 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: a dream. This is a theory that says that they 193 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: don't really mean much. It's just that they're kind of 194 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: an artifact of our brain doing things. That's on the 195 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: one explain or the other explain that. The theory that 196 00:10:55,360 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: our brain is essentially looking and fishing inside at things 197 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: that we suppressed during the day. This is the free 198 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: game theory. It said, we're kind of very stuff deep 199 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: inside that you want to not deal with it. And 200 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: then at night, because our god or down no, because 201 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: our brain speaks without anyone suppressing things, we get exposed 202 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: to things that kind of come up from from our psyche. 203 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: A third one that's really popular right now that I'm 204 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: supporting in many ways is one way the brain is 205 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 1: using the dream to simulate futures for us and kind 206 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 1: of leave to them in the ultimate visuality, so we 207 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: would actually know when we wake up if we should 208 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: do do not. So the idea is that you're debating 209 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:43,240 Speaker 1: whether to marry her and move to Alabama or break 210 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: up and decide to start a campaign in San Francisco, 211 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,280 Speaker 1: and you really don't know what to do, so overnight 212 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: your brain plays both movies of you moving to Alabama 213 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: with her and you started the company in San Francisco. 214 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: And because it's such a cool virtuality with the brains, 215 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: we doesn't know that it's not really going to the experience. 216 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: You filter all of this movie through your values and emotions, 217 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:08,439 Speaker 1: and when you wake up, even though the memory itself 218 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,439 Speaker 1: is lost and you have no collection of the dream, 219 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: what survives is the feeling towards those choices. So when 220 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,720 Speaker 1: you wake up, you kind of have a better answer 221 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: to what you should do. So those are three CEO 222 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: is there's two more along the same lines, but they 223 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: cannot fall into those packets. They mean nothing, but they're 224 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:27,040 Speaker 1: just our brains way of working. They mean a lot, 225 00:12:27,080 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 1: because there are brains way of reflecting things that we 226 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: are self suppressed, and they are are brains way of 227 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 1: stimulating futures that we didn't experience yet in an ultimate 228 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: virtuality device. That's so amazing that we are fooled by 229 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: it ourselves, thinking that we are the character in this movie, 230 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: and then waking up and knowing what to do now. 231 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: Some have speculated that dreams are tied to the brains 232 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: crunching of waking world problems. So the idea of solving 233 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: problems and our dreams that just seems to fit, right, 234 00:12:56,000 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 1: But it also fits are these much older ideas of 235 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: dreams as prophet your communication with the divine, And you 236 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: can see the danger there. The idea of inspiration and 237 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: dreams is just so romantically captivating. Uh, Even as if 238 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 1: one is above outright lying about dream inspiration to improve 239 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: their storytelling, it's still rather easy to manipulate our memories 240 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: of dreams. Oh yeah, I bet you've had this experience 241 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: where you start trying to explain a dream you just 242 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: had and suddenly you can't tell if what you're saying 243 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 1: about your memory of the dream is really what you 244 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: dreamed or if you're just making it up. Now it 245 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 1: feels very blurry the line between the two. So, yeah, 246 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: maybe you didn't see the answer in a dream. Maybe 247 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: the dream just contain fragments of the problem, but it 248 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: makes for a better story. Though then again, if it 249 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: contained fragments of the problem that leads you to the answer, 250 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 1: is that fundamentally all that different from seeing the answer 251 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 1: in the dream. That's true. That's true. And if you 252 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 1: go with any of these interpretations where dreams are important, 253 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: where they are, uh, there, there's there's something more than 254 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: just uh, you steam being released from the from the 255 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 1: cognitive engine. Uh, then it makes sense that that they 256 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:07,840 Speaker 1: would play a role. Now, we mentioned that there were 257 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of anecdotes throughout history of people claiming that 258 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 1: dreams gave them some kind of creative breakthrough and solving 259 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 1: a problem or in in doing doing something creative and original. Uh, 260 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: let's talk about a few of them. Okay, Yeah, let's 261 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:24,120 Speaker 1: let's We're not gonna run through all of them, but 262 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: we'll run through a few notable ones here, and all 263 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 1: of them, all of them, all dreams that have ever occurred, 264 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: will be cataloged for you to know. No, these are 265 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 1: just a few, uh that pop up from time to 266 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: time and or and in many cases are often cited. 267 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: So starting with some artists, Salvador Dolly, he attributed the 268 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: persistence of memory to dream inspiration. It's not hard to imagine. Yeah, 269 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: there's a there's a dreamlike quality, an overt dreamlike quality 270 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: to his work. Also, I think Dolly was a liar, 271 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,880 Speaker 1: so who knows what he if what he says about 272 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: the inspiration of anything is true, that's true his stories 273 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 1: about the creation of his work or often you can 274 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: see them as just extensions of the fantastic painting. Paul 275 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: McCartney claims the melody for Yesterday came to him in 276 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 1: a dream. Sure. Stephen King, of course, I had this 277 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: life threatening accident in n and he experienced vivid dreams 278 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: in recovery, and he claims that a lot of dream 279 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: Catcher came from those dreams. Okay, is that I've never 280 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: read that book. I think I've tried to watch the movie. 281 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:31,720 Speaker 1: Is the book more interesting than the movie? I haven't 282 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: neither seen nor read it because there was kind of 283 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: a negative buzz about both of them. I've always been 284 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: fascinated with the idea sound. I need to read it 285 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: or see it. I need to commit to one or 286 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: the other because I love the concept. I remember extended 287 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: sequences of people defecating alien life forms. See there you go. 288 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: That sounds great. Um. Also, you have some some athletic 289 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: creative types in the on the mix here, golfer Jack 290 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: Nicholas claim names that he improved his golf golf game 291 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: based on a dream in which he saw a new 292 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: way to grasp his club. Okay, yeah, who knows if 293 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: that's true, but all right. William Blake would attribute to 294 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: some of his ideas to dream visitations of his dead brother. 295 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 1: We of course, also have to look to Coleridge's opium 296 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: induced dreams. Oh yeah, the poem Kubla Khan, right was 297 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: supposedly inspired by a dream or even did he even 298 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: say it was composed in the dream? He may have it, 299 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: I remember. Some of this also factors into confessions of 300 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: an English opium eater as well. Um. Also, you have 301 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: Robert Louis Stevenson who claims to have dreamt two scenes 302 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:42,520 Speaker 1: from Dr Jacqueline mr. Hyde. But these are all artists 303 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: and creative types, right. Well, maybe Putting, who knows of 304 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: Jack Nicholas, counts there, but he he is an artist 305 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: of the green. It's harder to see, it's harder to 306 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: see what's all that unusual about dreams inspiring artists and 307 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: musicians and stuff, because in a way, there's no wrong 308 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: answer in art, right, So what's really interesting is when 309 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: you get like an experiment, design, or something in science 310 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 1: that is either valid or not, or how or actually 311 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: has a right answer or not. Yeah, so we're gonna 312 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: get into some of the scientific examples that this first one, though, 313 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:20,399 Speaker 1: kind of I guess, straddles the realm here between the 314 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: purely artistic and the purely scientific. Because you had scholar 315 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: Hermann Hilprecht who lived eighteen fifty nine through nine, and 316 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: he reported that he dreamed an Assyrian priest came to 317 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: him and revealed the accurate translation of the stone of Nebuchadnezzar, 318 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: which that just sounds amazing. Well, I know she wasn't Assyrian, 319 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: but I want to hear the dream where in Headuana 320 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: comes and poses some wrathful poetry about Anana. Yeah. What 321 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: it makes for a nice footnote too, when you have 322 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,240 Speaker 1: visitations like this. Uh. And that's something to keep in 323 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: mind as we roll through a number of these. You 324 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: have individuals making scientific break breakthroughs, and they don't necessary 325 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: like a lot of our accounts of the dream inspiration 326 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: are not coming directly from that individual, or they're coming 327 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 1: years after the fact. It varies from case to case, 328 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,119 Speaker 1: because I guess ultimately it's not the kind of thing 329 00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: you would necessarily put into your scientific paper and say 330 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: and then I had a dream and this was the result. Well. 331 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: A classic example of the scientific inspiration from a dream, 332 00:18:21,119 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: apart from Otto Loewi, was also Dimitri mendal aev right, yes, 333 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: who of course live at eighteen thirty four through nine seven, 334 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:30,919 Speaker 1: the Russian chemist who gave us the periodic table. The 335 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: story goes that he saw a complete periodic table in 336 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: a dream. Um. And maybe I've just been thinking too 337 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 1: much about Ghostbusters, but I want to imagine what it 338 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,879 Speaker 1: would have been like if mental had had been forced 339 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: to choose the form of gozer, which they're taken on 340 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:49,640 Speaker 1: the form of the periodic table, what's the atomic number 341 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: of Gozer? Now, as G. W. Baylor points out, there 342 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 1: are some problems with this story, so we have no 343 00:18:56,040 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: dream journal to go off here. We just have a 344 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: colleague secondhand account, And it seems like he'd already crafted 345 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: the periodic table before the alleged dream took place, and 346 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: merely saw an improved version of it in his dreams, 347 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,760 Speaker 1: a version of the story that sounds maybe a lot 348 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: more sensible, but and and maybe more in line with 349 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 1: some of these other stories. Either way, you can still 350 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: call that dream inspiration, you know, if you're if the 351 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: thing you're trying to create either appears to you wholesale 352 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:25,680 Speaker 1: in the dream based on your work and experience, or 353 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: some updated version, some twist on it appears in your dream. Now, 354 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: since we're in the realm of chemistry, we should go 355 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:36,040 Speaker 1: to maybe the single most often cited example of dream 356 00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 1: inspiration in science, which is August ka Yes lived eight 357 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 1: uh and he dreamt of whirling snakes and allegedly discovered 358 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: the ring shape of the benzene molecule by seeing an 359 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: aora boris in his dream. Or a boris, of course, 360 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 1: is the serpent consuming its own tail. One thing to 361 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: keep in mind, that is this account didn't emerge until 362 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,640 Speaker 1: twenty eight years later, So that's more than enough time 363 00:20:01,680 --> 00:20:04,760 Speaker 1: obviously for memory to have been altered or the story 364 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: to have been maybe a little embellished dramaticized, but it's 365 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: it's still one of the examples that you see cited 366 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: time after time for dream inspiration in science. Well, anything 367 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 1: we can get smaller than a benzine molecule. Oh, we 368 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: can move on to the work of Neil's Bore, who've 369 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: talked about recently. Through nineteen so he claimed to have 370 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: developed his model of the atom based on a dream 371 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,399 Speaker 1: he had in which he sat on the Sun and 372 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 1: the planets moved around him on tiny chords. Now that's 373 00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 1: cosmic terror. Up next on our list of considerations. Here 374 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: there's J. B. Parkinson, who lived nineteen twelve through nineteen 375 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: ninety one. He got invented computer controlled anti aircraft guns, 376 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,560 Speaker 1: and this is an excerpt from his New York Times 377 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: oh bit. Mr Parkinson, who was a member of the 378 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 1: technical staff of Bell Laboratories in New York in nineteen forty, 379 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: had a dream that had that a device he designed 380 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,679 Speaker 1: to guide a marking stylist could be used to control 381 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: anti aircraft guns. He developed a prototype, and the Western 382 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: Electric Company began mass producing it. His achievements won him 383 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,560 Speaker 1: a presidential award and a Franklin Institute Medal. Okay, well, 384 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: whether or not you like the fact that it was 385 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,960 Speaker 1: a weapon, even weapons take creativity to produce, true, and 386 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: and it was a defensive weapon, we can say that 387 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: anti aircraft gun for the most part. Okay. Up next, 388 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: we have a sewing machine inventor and handsome werewolf Elias. 389 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: How I recommend everyone look up a picture of of 390 00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,960 Speaker 1: old Elias here because he was something else that, Like, 391 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: I've never seen somebody's sport one of those kind of 392 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: a neck beard so glamorously. It's the beard without the mustache. 393 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: But it looks it's very fluffy and luxurious. It looks 394 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: like he's been brushing it a lot. Yeah, it's there's 395 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: this seam seamless flow from his his thick head of 396 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: hair into this beard. Uh. I just get a very 397 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: handsome werewolf off of him. They should have cast him 398 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: in that Wolfman remake. Yeah. Well, he allegedly dreamt he 399 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,159 Speaker 1: was building a sewing machine for a savage king in 400 00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:12,679 Speaker 1: a strange country. I love that. So there's not a 401 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: lot to back this up, but the story appeared in 402 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,960 Speaker 1: a later family history. Here's a quote. He thought the 403 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: king gave him twenty four hours in which to complete 404 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: the machine and make it so if not finished in 405 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: that time, death was to be the punishment. How it 406 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 1: worked and worked and puzzled, and finally gave it up. 407 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: Then he thought he was taken out to be executed. 408 00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 1: He noticed that the warriors carried spears that were pierced 409 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: near the head. Instantly came the solution of the difficulty, 410 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: and while the inventor was was begging for time, he awoke. 411 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 1: It was four o'clock in the morning. He jumped out 412 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,439 Speaker 1: of bed, ran to his workshop, and by nine a 413 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: needle with an eye at the point had been rudely modeled. 414 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: After that, it was easy. That is the true story 415 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: of an important incident in the invention of the sewing machine. 416 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: That's interesting. I mean, again, who knows if it's true, 417 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: but doing it is true. If you just play with 418 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: that for a second, Okay, say that story is true. 419 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: It's interesting the way in which these revelations seem to 420 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: be arriving, you know, not necessarily through literal ideas, right, 421 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,760 Speaker 1: like seeing a snake eating its tail or seeing the 422 00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 1: spear with the hole at the tip of the spear. 423 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: They're not through literal understandings of say a dream about 424 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 1: trying to design a sewing machine and coming up with 425 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: the idea of a needle with a hole at its tip. 426 00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: But there's some kind of like image association thing their 427 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 1: visual type dreams where you see an association between unrelated things. Yeah, 428 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:40,880 Speaker 1: there's almost a sense of you know, someone like, oh, 429 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: spending his his day trying to crack this problem with 430 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: the left brain, and then at night is kind of this, 431 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: uh hey, right brain, what have you got anything? Anything 432 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,479 Speaker 1: like just tumbling around? You want to throw at it, 433 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: maybe not to do well. I wonder to what degree 434 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: the hemispheric division does play into that, But I think 435 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 1: some version of that will come through and some of 436 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 1: the research we're gonna talk about later, right. I I 437 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:06,359 Speaker 1: don't want to imply that people are dolphins and have 438 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 1: uni hemospheric sleep, but though that would be an entirely 439 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: different scenario to try to imagine how that would play 440 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,399 Speaker 1: into problem solving. Okay, and finally we're gonna mention Albert 441 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:19,400 Speaker 1: Einstein one last time because he in addition to his 442 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: uh his crazy sparks of razor flinging um eureka moments, 443 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: he once said that his entire career was it was 444 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: an extended meditation on a slaying dream he had as 445 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,080 Speaker 1: a child, leading him to contemplate the speed of light. Now, 446 00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: that's slaying with an e I g H. Not like 447 00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: a dragon slay, not not running around with the razor blade, 448 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: but no like moving quickly through the snow in uh 449 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: in a in a vehicle of sorts that that you 450 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 1: can see how that would lead to, say, contemplations about 451 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: what would happen if you were trying to catch up 452 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 1: with a beam of light. Yeah. Now, again, we've tried 453 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: to display enough skepticism about these anecdotal accounts because, as 454 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: we've said, a lot of times, they're they're self reported 455 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: or the are reported much later. I mean, who knows 456 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: if into what extent they're exactly correct in saying where 457 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: these ideas came from. But I do feel like there's 458 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,360 Speaker 1: an emerging theme that there does appear to be some 459 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 1: link between creativity and sleep or dreams, at least there 460 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: appears to be. Uh. The one thing I want to 461 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: stress here is that creativity? The kind of creativity we're 462 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,160 Speaker 1: gonna be talking about today's creativity. I think as psychologists 463 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: would tend to use the word which means something like 464 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: one's ability to use adaptive problem solving, and not necessarily 465 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:35,120 Speaker 1: like how artistic or how unique you are other things 466 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: we would usually think of when we use the word creative. 467 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: In the psychological sense, creative means something like the ability 468 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,800 Speaker 1: to think in novel ways to achieve a goal. And 469 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: this of course includes artistic creativity, but it's not limited 470 00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: to it, right, It can very well include uh, hey, 471 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: what have I held the golf club like this instead 472 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: of like that? Yeah? Yeah, it's novel thinking, so uh 473 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:01,080 Speaker 1: It basically, to use a cliche, I mean thinking outside 474 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: the box to solve a problem. Whether that problem is 475 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: how should we picture the structure of an atom? Or 476 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 1: how can I figure out why my lawnmower won't start? 477 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: Or how should I tie up all the narrative threads 478 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 1: in my novel? In each case it's requiring novel thinking. 479 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: It's creativity. But okay, anecdotes, of course, as we all know, 480 00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,679 Speaker 1: can be cheap. Is there, like any evidence from controlled 481 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: research that shows a relationship between sleep, dreams, and creativity 482 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,400 Speaker 1: or are these just sort of cute, cherry picked stories. 483 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: I think we should address that after we come back 484 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 1: from a break. Thank alright, we're back. So, yeah, we've 485 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,119 Speaker 1: talked about these examples and how they might tie into creativity. 486 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 1: But what happens when we start looking to uh, to 487 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: actual control research for answers. That's a great question. So 488 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: to be clear, researches tended to show that sleep has 489 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:56,080 Speaker 1: several roles in improving and maintaining areas of brain functions. Specifically, 490 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of research on sleep in memory, 491 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: Like studies have Indica hated that R E M sleep 492 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: may play a role in memory consolidation, improving the memory 493 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: of things learned throughout the day, and even things like 494 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: emotional associations with those memories. But actually, yes, there is 495 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: also controlled research on sleep and creativity. Actually, there's too 496 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: much of it to cover here, so we're just going 497 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 1: to have to discuss a few interesting highlights that came 498 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: to our attention. In general, it seems that it has 499 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: yielded some very interesting but sometimes contradictory findings. So to 500 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: begin a smattering of recent studies, One was by CEO 501 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,240 Speaker 1: Monahan and Ormad called sleep on it, but only if 502 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: it is difficult. Effects of sleep on problem solving in 503 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: memory and cognition in So this took twenty seven male 504 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 1: and thirty four female students from Lancaster University, all native 505 00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,480 Speaker 1: English speakers. Uh These were the subjects and they were 506 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:55,080 Speaker 1: given a set of thirty problems from what's known as 507 00:27:55,160 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: the Remote Associates Test or the RAT test. Though I 508 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: guess it's only the RAT test in the way that 509 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,120 Speaker 1: the A T M machine is a machine. The rat 510 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 1: We'll just say the RAT is a common battery used 511 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: to test people's creative potential using word association. Have you 512 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: ever done a test like this, Robert, I haven't, But 513 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 1: I have to say that sentence that you just said 514 00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: about the rat, that that feels like the most cut 515 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: up machine statement I've heard heard in recent In recent times, 516 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 1: it's the opening of a william Us Burrows and the 517 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: rat is a common battery used to test creative potential. 518 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: So here's how the rat works. I'm gonna give you 519 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: three words, and you tell me a fourth word that 520 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 1: is related to all three of the original words. In 521 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: my experience, these are funny because they can seem really 522 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: difficult for a moment until you see the answer, either 523 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: by figuring it out or by or by just cheating 524 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: and looking at it, at which point then it immediately 525 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 1: feels embarrassingly obvious and you don't know why you couldn't 526 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: figure it out for a minute. So a couple of examples. Robert, 527 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 1: what's the fourth word associated with these three room, blood salts? 528 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with slug slug, room, slug blood. It's 529 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 1: just what came to mind. That's how this works, right, 530 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: So supposed to be whatever pops into my head? Or 531 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: am I trying to determine a path? No, you're trying 532 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: to solve it. Okay, well that's different. Um let's say room, 533 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 1: blood salts, room blood salts, room, blood salts, I don't know. 534 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 1: I'm still going with slugs, show I don't know, bath 535 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: bath bath, bathroom blood bath, bath salts. Okay, yeah, so 536 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: they all relate to that word. Okay, now I see 537 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 1: how that how this is working. Okay, So, yeah, you 538 00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:45,920 Speaker 1: had your training session. Are you ready to be subjected 539 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: to more? Yes, let's go. Okay, these three words, what's 540 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: the fourth word? See home stomach, see home stomach? I 541 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: mean slug would work with all of these again, uh 542 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 1: if I were pressed. Uh, but let's see sick. Oh exactly, 543 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,719 Speaker 1: there you go see sick, homesick, sick to your stomach. Okay, 544 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: I got a third third one for you. Car swimming 545 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,080 Speaker 1: q Oh, that's pool, right, exactly, car pool swimming, pool 546 00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: pool que Okay. Alright. So that's how this test works, 547 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: and it's a pretty good concise way of trying to 548 00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,840 Speaker 1: test for creative potential thinking, right, because you're you're trying 549 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: to get people to think laterally, right, there's no direct 550 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: way to solve this. You have to kind of think 551 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: by sideways association. And so anyway, the participants were given 552 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:40,000 Speaker 1: questions of this sort, and then after they were initially 553 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 1: given the questions they were there was a delay, and 554 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: the delay either included sleep or included no sleep, or 555 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: there was no delay, and participants then tried again to 556 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: solve rat problems that they couldn't solve on their first attempt, 557 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 1: and the group that had slept in between attempts solved 558 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: a greater number of problems rated quote difficult than other groups, 559 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: but there was no difference between groups for the problems 560 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,400 Speaker 1: that were rated easy, So it looks like sleep did 561 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: play some role in aiding creative problem solving, especially on 562 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,320 Speaker 1: harder than average problems that required this kind of sideways 563 00:31:16,320 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: associative thinking. And I think that matches up with with 564 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: our experience, you know. I think we've all been in 565 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: a situation where we've been studying for something, or studying 566 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,480 Speaker 1: up on something, and we reached kind of a breaking point. 567 00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: We go to bed, we hopefully get a full night's sleep, 568 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: and then the next day everything is a little clear, 569 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: everything's a little more assembled, as if the pieces did 570 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: some sort of partial assembly on their own in the night. Yeah, totally. 571 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: And there's another study I want to mention that is 572 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 1: kind of similar in nature. So this one is called 573 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,600 Speaker 1: sleep promotes analogical transfer and problem solving. This was from Cognition, 574 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: has a couple of the same authors from the previous 575 00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: study and then some different authors, and they wanted to 576 00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: study of sleep actually had any effect on quote analogical 577 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 1: problem solving, and this means using a known solution from 578 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: one problem to solve a different but related problem, So basically, 579 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: to solve a similar type of problem. So what would 580 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 1: be an example of analogical problem solving. Well, I've got 581 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,040 Speaker 1: one here, I'm gonna start to do two questions. Here's 582 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: the first question. This is the sample question. How can 583 00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 1: a gardener plant four trees so that the trees are 584 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: equi distant from one another? If you want to pause 585 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 1: it and try to figure that out for a second, 586 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:32,080 Speaker 1: be my guest, but you'll you'll immediately run into problems 587 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: if you're trying to map it out on a piece 588 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: of paper, right, Because if you put them, say, in 589 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:38,719 Speaker 1: a square in a square pattern, the ones at the 590 00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: corners are going to be farther away from each other 591 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: than they are from the ones that are one side 592 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: away from them, right, So how can you put four 593 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: trees equidistant from from one another? The answer is you 594 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: put one of them on a hill. So, if you're 595 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,600 Speaker 1: trying to picture this, three of the trees are in 596 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: an equilateral triangle at the bottom of the hill, and 597 00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:58,960 Speaker 1: then the fourth tree is at the middle of a 598 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: hill in between them, at such a height that it's 599 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: the same distance from all of the trees below, all 600 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,760 Speaker 1: three of the trees below, So you've essentially made a 601 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 1: triangular pyramid of trees, right, yes, okay, or some sort 602 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 1: of you know, an ancient pagan temple. I like that. 603 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: That's good. Yeah, the one tree at the top of 604 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: the hill. It conjures to mind like the sacred priest 605 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: keeper of the tree, or who you have to slay 606 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: in order to become the new the new priest. That's 607 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: slay with an a y, not Einstein sligh. But so 608 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,160 Speaker 1: once you've seen the solution to that problem, you're given 609 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: another problem. Here's the analogical problem. Can you assemble six 610 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: matches to form four equilateral triangles, each side of which 611 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: is equal to the length of one match? Again, if 612 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: you want to try to pause and solve this for yourself, 613 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: be our guests r under your nearest restaurant, UH that 614 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: has a complimentary matches UH, start assembling them on the table. 615 00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: You're gonna want to order a drink just or some 616 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: appetizer just so that you can have a seat to 617 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: do this and then report back. So, given that we've 618 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,080 Speaker 1: just primed you with the past example, it might not 619 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:04,360 Speaker 1: take you very long because the solution is very similar. Right, 620 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: think not in two day, but in three d exactly. 621 00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:09,840 Speaker 1: So the answer follows a similar logical leap. If you 622 00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: keep lying the matches flat on the table, you're just 623 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,560 Speaker 1: never going to be able to make four equilateral triangles 624 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: with a side length of one match. The answer is 625 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: to build into three dimensions. Like you say, M make 626 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,439 Speaker 1: a tetrahedron, you make a triangular pyramid, and then you've 627 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: solved this the Sprain teaser. So in the first experiment 628 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: of the study, participants were shown a set of source 629 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: problems to demonstrate general styles of solutions like the trees 630 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: and the hill example we gave. Then there was a 631 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,720 Speaker 1: twelve hour period which involved either sleeping or not sleeping. 632 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:45,680 Speaker 1: Then participants tried to solve problems related to the source 633 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 1: problems they had been exposed to, but with different features, 634 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: sort of like the second example with the matches. Then 635 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: a second experiment controlled for time of day effects on 636 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: results by testing in both the morning and the evening, 637 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: and the authors found when controlling for other variables like 638 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 1: drowsiness and time of day, sleep did still appear to 639 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: somewhat improve analogical transfer. Participants who slept were better at 640 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: applying types of outside the box reasoning that they had 641 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: seen used before two new problems, And again, I feel 642 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: like this lines up with our experiences. Yeah, though in 643 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: in the wild sort of when you've had this experience 644 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,320 Speaker 1: of sleeping on a problem and then coming to a solution, 645 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 1: you might wonder, like, which variables are at play? Right? 646 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,600 Speaker 1: You might just think, think, okay, I got some rest. 647 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,279 Speaker 1: Maybe getting some rest is the thing that did it. 648 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:37,480 Speaker 1: That's true. If you really wanted to, you could just 649 00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: cut dreams out of it entirely and go with one 650 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: of those dream interpretations that relegates dreams to just mere 651 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: steam from the machine ep epiphenomenal dreams. Yeah, um, but no, 652 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 1: that the what we're trying to look for here is 653 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:53,920 Speaker 1: a test showing that dreams specifically or not necessarily dreams specifically, 654 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: but sleep specifically, is doing something to help you solve 655 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,240 Speaker 1: the problem. And it's not just that, say, some time 656 00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: has passed in between and you've gotten some rest. You know, 657 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: one thing we haven't mentioned in all of this is 658 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: the the idea of book absorption. You know, the idea 659 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:11,800 Speaker 1: that certain this is completely nonsense, but you see it 660 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: come occasionally, the idea of someone could lay their head 661 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 1: upon a book and sleep and in doing so absorb 662 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,840 Speaker 1: the data from the book. I did not know that 663 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,360 Speaker 1: anybody thought that would actually happen. Do people think that 664 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:28,840 Speaker 1: actually happens. I think there may be like one account 665 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: of someone claiming to have had that ability, but uh, 666 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: it's it's not like they passed the Randy test with 667 00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:39,200 Speaker 1: it or anything. Uh. The only way I could see 668 00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: that making a difference is if you've already read the 669 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: book and then maybe by sleeping with your head on it, 670 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,439 Speaker 1: you would continually notice that you're uncomfortable as you're trying 671 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: to go to sleep, and this would continually bring your 672 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,959 Speaker 1: mind back to the contents of the book. Yeah, yeah, 673 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: that that would make sense. Or you're so wrapped up 674 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,600 Speaker 1: in the idea of dream absorption of the book that 675 00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: you dream of the book maybe and you know you're 676 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 1: not drawing new information out of a book you have 677 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: not read, but perhaps your brain kind of puts things 678 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: together like it reminds me of the situation I've I've 679 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,040 Speaker 1: mentioned this on the podcast before, and I imagine lots 680 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 1: of you have experienced this. You're falling asleep and you're reading, 681 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,520 Speaker 1: and you begin to read words and sentences and even 682 00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: the whole pages that are not there, and then you realize, oh, 683 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:25,839 Speaker 1: I just need to go to sleep because I'm I'm 684 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: experiencing hallucination. I'm dream reading. Yeah, now there's a bunch 685 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: more research on this type of subject. For example, I 686 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,359 Speaker 1: was just looking at one study in PS one in 687 00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: which uh students who were trying to solve a puzzle 688 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: video game level did better after they'd had a nap 689 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,200 Speaker 1: as opposed to just waiting for an equivalent amount of 690 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:47,880 Speaker 1: time and not sleeping. Uh So, but that was a 691 00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: small study. Another interesting one is the cognitive neuroscientist Aaron Wamsley, 692 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,319 Speaker 1: who has apparently performed research training people on solving a 693 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: virtual maze. So there's you get trained on a virtual maze, 694 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: and then there's a rest period involving no sleep, non 695 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 1: rem sleep, or full rim sleep, and only the participants 696 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: who underwent rim sleep showed improved performance on the maze. Now, 697 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: if you know anything about sleep, you know that Wait 698 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,760 Speaker 1: a minute, Okay, the rim sleep is where the dreams happen. 699 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,840 Speaker 1: So this should bring us back to the question of Okay, 700 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 1: we're showing like the sleep does appear to help people 701 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: in solving problems one way or another, But do the 702 00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: dreams play any role? Is that what matters? You know? 703 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: In the video games are an interesting example because I 704 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,600 Speaker 1: think of my own use of video games. Video games 705 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,400 Speaker 1: are not something I play first thing in the morning, 706 00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 1: when I'm fresh. These are things that I play, um 707 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: towards the end of the day or perhaps even late 708 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: at night, when my brain is spent for the evening. 709 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: So if I'm if I gain advantage over a puzzle 710 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,399 Speaker 1: within a video game the next day, it seems more 711 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: likely that it is due to something that's happening in 712 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,759 Speaker 1: my dreams rather than just being fresh, because again, I'm 713 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,839 Speaker 1: probably mentally exhausted if I'm playing a video game. That's 714 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,319 Speaker 1: true and also strikes me as a good use of 715 00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: your time. I mean, you don't want to be squandering 716 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: your best creative energy on video games. I don't. I 717 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:11,840 Speaker 1: mean not to say that some some of some of 718 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: those games are great and you don't kind of want 719 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: to be fresh for, but that's just not how I 720 00:39:16,840 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 1: currently live my life. No, I mean, my my opinion 721 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: on video games is they are a great recreational relaxation activity, 722 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 1: not something that that I think of in terms of 723 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,279 Speaker 1: achievement in right, unless you're being paid to participate in 724 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,480 Speaker 1: a study and then you can, you know, do whatever. 725 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 1: But okay, we got to bring it back to dreams. Okay, 726 00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,880 Speaker 1: So so do the dreams specifically play a role in 727 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 1: creative problem solving? Now, I think we should look at 728 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,000 Speaker 1: the work of a psychologist named Deirdre Barrett. We mentioned 729 00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 1: her earlier in the episode, but she's a psychologist who 730 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: at various points you've been on faculty at Suffolk University 731 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,640 Speaker 1: at Harvard Medical School. I believe she runs a private 732 00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: clinical practice in Cambridge and a lot of her work 733 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 1: has been on study of dreams. So let's talk a 734 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,719 Speaker 1: little bit about Barrett's ideas. So Barrett has a ted 735 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: talk from where she kind of summarizes some of her 736 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: thinking about dreams and dream research. So she mentions three 737 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: big questions. First, why is there any content to our 738 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: nighttime sleep? Second, why is that content so different from 739 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,120 Speaker 1: our waking thinking? Why is it bizarre? You know, why 740 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 1: is dream like even a thing? And then finally, do 741 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,080 Speaker 1: dreams have a function and if so, what? And Barrett 742 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,719 Speaker 1: seems to believe that dreams are basically just thinking in 743 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,320 Speaker 1: a different biochemical state. Quote the demands of our bodies 744 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,920 Speaker 1: during sleep and makes certain areas of our brains less active. 745 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:42,839 Speaker 1: So you can imagine that certain areas of the brain 746 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:46,760 Speaker 1: are getting different kinds of energy or oxygen or blood flow. 747 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:49,640 Speaker 1: But we keep thinking about the same kinds of concerns 748 00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: that preoccupy us when we're awake, and in this altered 749 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:57,239 Speaker 1: biochemical state, the sleeping brain approaches these concerns using very 750 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: different systems and modes than we would use while are awake. 751 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,480 Speaker 1: So despite how bizarre these modes of thinking can feel 752 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,880 Speaker 1: in the moment in the dream, it is very odd. 753 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,760 Speaker 1: Barrett thinks these different perspectives provided by the dreaming mind 754 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,240 Speaker 1: can be helpful to problem solving. So under this model, 755 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: by dreaming about the problems that concern us while we're awake, 756 00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:19,759 Speaker 1: it's almost like we're having two different people working in 757 00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:23,160 Speaker 1: tandem on solving the problem. Right, and what are these 758 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,919 Speaker 1: two people like? What are the different strengths they bring. 759 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 1: So human sleep occurs in ninety minutes cycles, each one 760 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: containing a period of what's known as rapid eye movement 761 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:35,520 Speaker 1: sleep or rims sleep, which we've mentioned, and each of 762 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,200 Speaker 1: these RIM periods contains dreaming. We don't tend to remember 763 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:41,359 Speaker 1: all of our dream cycles in the morning, but if 764 00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: you wake people up after each RIM period, they'll be 765 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,799 Speaker 1: able to describe five dreams in a night, and pet 766 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: scans show that parts of the brain associated with visual imagery, movement, 767 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:56,040 Speaker 1: and emotion are active, often even more active than when 768 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: we're awake. Meanwhile, frontal areas associated with abstract thinking, planning, 769 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:06,279 Speaker 1: and especially like UH, limitations on behavior and self censorship, 770 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,000 Speaker 1: these areas of the brain are suppressed. So you've got 771 00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: two different people working on the problem. The waking brain 772 00:42:13,120 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: can work on it in a more controlled, focused, abstract, 773 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: and planned way, while the dreaming brain can sort of 774 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,800 Speaker 1: play with the problem in an experimental, unfocused, visual, uncensored, 775 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,399 Speaker 1: associative way. And one of the ways this is often 776 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:31,920 Speaker 1: expressed is how do you solve problem? Hard problems? You 777 00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: often have to solve them by approaching them in a 778 00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 1: way that seems wrong at first, right, But the prefrontal 779 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,880 Speaker 1: part of the brain that's suppressed during rim sleep is 780 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 1: the part of the brain that tells you no, no, no, 781 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: don't think like that, that's wrong, Like the part of 782 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,759 Speaker 1: your your brain it says, well, if they're fighting over 783 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: this baby, I'll just cut it in half, which is 784 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: a well, no, the prefrontal part would tell you that's 785 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,759 Speaker 1: not an option, so you'd have to suppress that part 786 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: of the brain. King Solomon, there is using dream logic. Yeah, 787 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 1: but and it ends up solving the problem spoiler for 788 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: the Old Testament. But the two mothers stopped fighting over 789 00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: the child because the one who who cares the most 790 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: about the child says, wait, don't cut the kid in half. 791 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:15,759 Speaker 1: It's sort of a social brain teaser. R. How do 792 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,319 Speaker 1: you get these people fighting over who who's the real 793 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 1: mother of the baby to reveal their identities? And yeah, 794 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:24,600 Speaker 1: So so that that's a way of outside the box 795 00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,799 Speaker 1: thinking that you might say is could be helped by 796 00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:30,879 Speaker 1: rem sleep and dreaming. So you've got this one team 797 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,759 Speaker 1: member this very organized and logical, and the other team 798 00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,000 Speaker 1: member is weird and creative and visual, and they sort 799 00:43:37,040 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: of hand the problem off back and forth. That's an 800 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 1: interesting possibility. So it looked at paper by Barrett, The 801 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: Committee of Sleep, a Study of Dream Incubation for Problem Solving. Now, 802 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:51,120 Speaker 1: she would later go on to write a book called 803 00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: The Committee of Sleep, but yeah, this was an earlier 804 00:43:54,440 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 1: piece of research that she did. Right. So she points 805 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: out that most accounts of solving problems or producing crea 806 00:44:00,080 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: of products during sleep are of realm like dreams or 807 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:10,440 Speaker 1: hypnogogic imagery. Again, that's the nether world between wakefulness and sleep. Now, 808 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,120 Speaker 1: I wanted to mention that she brings up she sort 809 00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: of reviews briefly some existing literature at the time of 810 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,760 Speaker 1: the research on on the connection between dreams and problem solving. 811 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,000 Speaker 1: So just to mention a few of the papers that 812 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: go into the background of her research here. One is 813 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,279 Speaker 1: Cartwright in nineteen seventy four, who gave subjects three types 814 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: of problems, crossword puzzles, word association tests maybe kind of 815 00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:37,359 Speaker 1: like the rat UH, and story completion, and subjects either 816 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,240 Speaker 1: got a sleep period with at least one rim cycle 817 00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 1: or an equal amount of waking time. And in this 818 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 1: study there was no difference found between sleepers and non 819 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:49,440 Speaker 1: sleepers in terms of problems solved correctly in the crossword 820 00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: puzzles or the word association tests. So that's that's a 821 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: kind of different result, right, We're getting some contradiction there 822 00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:58,640 Speaker 1: no difference there. Also, sleepers apparently wrote story completions with 823 00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,400 Speaker 1: more negative ending. I don't know what that's about. Nobody 824 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 1: tried to figure out whether the story completions were were 825 00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,800 Speaker 1: better in one group than another. A big one in 826 00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,160 Speaker 1: the field is Dement in nineteen seventy four, which took 827 00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: five hundred undergraduate students and they got three brain teasers, 828 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,440 Speaker 1: and they were asked to read the brain teasers before 829 00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: going to bed. Then they were asked to record whether 830 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,919 Speaker 1: solutions to the brain teasers appeared in dreams. And this 831 00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:28,239 Speaker 1: is from Barrett's summary quote of one thousand, one forty 832 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,759 Speaker 1: eight attempts at solving problems. Eight seven dreams address the 833 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: problem without finding a solution. Seven students reported dreams which 834 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 1: solved the problem, and a few others had dreams which 835 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: seemed to hint at a solution, without the waking subject 836 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,799 Speaker 1: catching the hint. That's interesting, how would that work? Well, 837 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,080 Speaker 1: she gives an example. It would be in the problem 838 00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:51,960 Speaker 1: quote H I J K L M n oh. What 839 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:56,880 Speaker 1: one word does this sequence represent? The subject reported I 840 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,359 Speaker 1: had several dreams, all of which had water somewhere, and 841 00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 1: described the water in each stream. However, his guess at 842 00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: the solution to the problem was alphabet rather than water, 843 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,880 Speaker 1: which is H two oh sotion to the brain teaser. 844 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,359 Speaker 1: It's the alphabet H two oh. And I was also 845 00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,799 Speaker 1: thinking the next letter is P. And if you think 846 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: about water too much, you will be in the bed. 847 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,320 Speaker 1: In the bed. It all makes sense I don't know 848 00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:24,080 Speaker 1: if there's any science behind. Uh. Now, of course that 849 00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:26,480 Speaker 1: could be easily be a coincidence, but you do have 850 00:46:26,520 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: to wonder. That's kind of interesting. Um but yeah, anyway, 851 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: So so that's some of the background leading into the 852 00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:36,040 Speaker 1: research that she performed in this study. Yeah, particularly, she 853 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 1: connected an experiment she got to seventy six college students 854 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,960 Speaker 1: together that it consisted of forty seven women, twenty nine men, 855 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 1: everybody ages nineteen through twenty four, so the modal age 856 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: was twenty one. They were asked to incubate dreams addressing 857 00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:54,080 Speaker 1: problems as a homework assignment in a class on dreams. 858 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: So they were instructed to select a problem of personal 859 00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:03,560 Speaker 1: relevance with a recognizable solution, so no wicked problems, you know, 860 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,600 Speaker 1: like something something that can be tackled. Come up with 861 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,680 Speaker 1: a solution to the nuclear standoff. So they were asked 862 00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:13,359 Speaker 1: to write out their problem in a simple fashion, and 863 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:16,520 Speaker 1: immediately prior to the first night of dream incubation, they 864 00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,480 Speaker 1: had to attend a lecture summarizing the literature on problem 865 00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: solving in dreams. So they're getting, you know, a nice 866 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,640 Speaker 1: and primed on a number of the concepts that we've 867 00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: talked about already. They did this nightly for one week 868 00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: or until they had a dream which they felt solved 869 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: the problem. They recorded all of their dreams during this time, 870 00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: and they they noted which ones were a on topic 871 00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: on the topic of the problem, including addressing any aspect 872 00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,279 Speaker 1: of the problem or any attempted solution of it, and 873 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:49,840 Speaker 1: then also be of these ones they believed contained a 874 00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:54,080 Speaker 1: satisfactory solution to the problem. And then these were judged 875 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 1: by I think two judges. Now, approximately half of the 876 00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,239 Speaker 1: subjects recalled a dream which they felt was related to 877 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: the problem. And uh, and it's worth pointing out that 878 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,359 Speaker 1: se these believe their dream contained a solution to the problem. Now, 879 00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:11,359 Speaker 1: most of the individuals here selected a personal problem, something 880 00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:16,479 Speaker 1: related to relationship dilemmas, or educational vocational desires. And again 881 00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,360 Speaker 1: we have to remember that these are a bunch of 882 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,440 Speaker 1: twenty one year olds for the most part. Well, I mean, 883 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 1: that's not surprising to me, because dreams very often. I mean, 884 00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: one thing, you see when you look at did your 885 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: dream address the solution to this brain teaser you've been 886 00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:34,080 Speaker 1: trying to solve? I don't think people dream about stuff 887 00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,480 Speaker 1: like that very often. People tend more often to dream 888 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,919 Speaker 1: about stuff of strong personal importance, which tends to have 889 00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,920 Speaker 1: to do with like work, life and relationships with people 890 00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:47,839 Speaker 1: and family and friends. Yeah, and I mean arguably too 891 00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 1: if it's something seemingly more fantastic, like I was being 892 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,480 Speaker 1: chased by the hounds of Hell. All those hounds of 893 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,839 Speaker 1: hell just represent all the other crap in your life 894 00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,120 Speaker 1: that is not literally a hound of hell. Yeah, so 895 00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:01,719 Speaker 1: this might actually be a better approach than seeing did 896 00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: your dream literally address the contents of a brain teaser? 897 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 1: Because we might just not be primed to dream about 898 00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,360 Speaker 1: things like brain teasers if our dreams are somehow adaptive. 899 00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,319 Speaker 1: If they do address problems, you'd think those problems would 900 00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,200 Speaker 1: be the kinds of problems humans normally face, not like 901 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: written abstract puzzles. And indeed, in this experiment, personal problems 902 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:24,319 Speaker 1: were much more likely to be viewed as solved by 903 00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,280 Speaker 1: the dreamer than once of an academic nature, because again, 904 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:30,400 Speaker 1: most of the individuals in the study chose personal problems 905 00:49:30,440 --> 00:49:32,960 Speaker 1: and a few chose academic I want to give one 906 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,400 Speaker 1: example of the type of problem that that was given 907 00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,160 Speaker 1: in the study. So this is a quote from a 908 00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,320 Speaker 1: supposedly solved problem. Quote I recently moved from one apartment 909 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,760 Speaker 1: to a smaller one. Every way I try to arrange 910 00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:48,799 Speaker 1: my bedroom furniture in the new room looks crowded. I've 911 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,839 Speaker 1: been trying to decide if there is a better way, 912 00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:53,800 Speaker 1: or if I have to get rid of something dream. 913 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,120 Speaker 1: I come home and all the boxes are unpacked and 914 00:49:56,160 --> 00:49:59,520 Speaker 1: the pictures hung. Everything looks real nice. The little chest 915 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: of drawer is in the living room, up against a 916 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: wall like a sideboard, and it blends right in there. 917 00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,399 Speaker 1: I'm puzzled because I didn't remember doing this. I can't 918 00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,000 Speaker 1: figure out if I move the chest and unpacked or 919 00:50:10,040 --> 00:50:13,360 Speaker 1: if someone else has but I like it awake. The 920 00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:15,880 Speaker 1: chest actually fit their real well when I tried it, 921 00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 1: so I left it there. I'm glad someone else has 922 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,560 Speaker 1: dreams as boring as mine. I mean, that's boring, but 923 00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,400 Speaker 1: that does actually represent a solution. I mean it sounds 924 00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,160 Speaker 1: like the kind of thing that if you were to 925 00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:30,360 Speaker 1: imagine that your your dreams are kind of like thinking 926 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,680 Speaker 1: about things that are on your mind, how to arrange 927 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:35,840 Speaker 1: the stuff in your apartment might well be one of 928 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:39,400 Speaker 1: those problems. So this is Barrett's conclusion from the paper quote. 929 00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:42,839 Speaker 1: Perhaps the Committee of Sleep may have workers outside of rim, 930 00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:45,439 Speaker 1: and the spokesperson roll of the dream may be more 931 00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,680 Speaker 1: than a metaphor even more likely, given what is known 932 00:50:48,719 --> 00:50:52,080 Speaker 1: about the cortical activation, the problem may get solved by 933 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,720 Speaker 1: some part of the waking mind and communicated to consciousness 934 00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:59,239 Speaker 1: only in the dream state. In summary, there remain many 935 00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:02,600 Speaker 1: questions about the mechanism of problem solving and dreams, and 936 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,520 Speaker 1: about the quality of these solutions compared with waking ones. 937 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 1: It is clear, however, the dream interested persons incubating problems 938 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,040 Speaker 1: can often dream what they feel to be solutions of 939 00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:16,600 Speaker 1: which they are not consciously aware, and it's such dreams 940 00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:20,359 Speaker 1: can provide them considerable personal satisfaction. All right, we're gonna 941 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,240 Speaker 1: take one more break. When we come back, we'll continue 942 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:29,000 Speaker 1: to discuss uh problem solving during dreams. Alright, we're back. Now. 943 00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:32,440 Speaker 1: We've been talking about how a sleep apparently aids in 944 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:36,840 Speaker 1: creative problem solving, and apparently how dreams themselves could play 945 00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,640 Speaker 1: some role in that. But what if dreams in rem 946 00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:42,719 Speaker 1: sleep play a role in problem solving even if they 947 00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:47,239 Speaker 1: don't necessarily consciously provide you with solutions to problems. This 948 00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,399 Speaker 1: is something I was often thinking about when looking at 949 00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:52,800 Speaker 1: this research, like people were looking for examples of where 950 00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,279 Speaker 1: you were able to solve a brain teaser because you 951 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,640 Speaker 1: had a dream about the brain teaser and the content 952 00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,000 Speaker 1: of the dreams specifically told you what to do. I 953 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,480 Speaker 1: think a lot of times it might be very different, 954 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:10,000 Speaker 1: like a dream might help you solve problems, not because 955 00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 1: it shows you the solution to the problem, because but 956 00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:16,759 Speaker 1: because it unconsciously primes you to solve the problem later 957 00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:19,280 Speaker 1: when you're awake. Yeah, it just kind of turns everything 958 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: the thing on its head potentially, and then you have 959 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:26,160 Speaker 1: that sort of mirror vision of everything still knocking around 960 00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:28,560 Speaker 1: your memory when you tackle the problem and it. Yeah, 961 00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,280 Speaker 1: so I think that's a possibility to consider as well. 962 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,759 Speaker 1: There's an interesting research paper that just came out this year, 963 00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,040 Speaker 1: just in eighteen and appeared in Trends in Cognitive Sciences 964 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,280 Speaker 1: by the Cardiff University neuroscientists penelop Lewis, the cognitive scientists 965 00:52:43,320 --> 00:52:46,400 Speaker 1: gun Through Noblitch, and the u c l A neuroscientist 966 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:50,360 Speaker 1: Gina Poe, and they have an interesting new hypothesis about 967 00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:54,560 Speaker 1: why the brain might be aided in problem solving by 968 00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,600 Speaker 1: sleep and dreaming, and they point out that many lines 969 00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:59,680 Speaker 1: of evidence of course, as we've been talking about, show 970 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 1: that's leap is important for creativity. But the question is 971 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,680 Speaker 1: which part of sleep is that the rim sleep, is 972 00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:09,200 Speaker 1: it the non rim sleep? How do sleep encourage creative 973 00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:12,879 Speaker 1: approaches to behavior? And is one stage of sleep more 974 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:15,719 Speaker 1: important than another stage of sleep? So I'll just try 975 00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,319 Speaker 1: to give you the very basics of their theory. Their 976 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:20,640 Speaker 1: new theory is that studies seem to show that the 977 00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:24,720 Speaker 1: brain replays memories from the day in non rim sleep, 978 00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,120 Speaker 1: and that through this process the brain creates just information. 979 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:33,560 Speaker 1: Essentially by replaying memories of what happened, it pulls out 980 00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,440 Speaker 1: sort of overarching rules that quote, define a set of 981 00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,960 Speaker 1: related memories. So this is this might be how your 982 00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,320 Speaker 1: brain sort of forms categories of things and themes of memories. 983 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:47,440 Speaker 1: That when you're sleeping before you go into your dream state, 984 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,879 Speaker 1: when you're in this non rim sleep state often known 985 00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 1: as slow wave sleep, you are experiencing replaying of memories 986 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,000 Speaker 1: and the brain is making rules based on those memories. 987 00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,319 Speaker 1: Then in the following periods of rem sleep, the brain 988 00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:08,280 Speaker 1: essentially plays with this existing cortically coded knowledge. Uh, and 989 00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,399 Speaker 1: that the that you've got these high levels of excitation 990 00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:16,600 Speaker 1: and the uncensored, unbridled capability for connections between things, and 991 00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,400 Speaker 1: this quote provides an ideal setting for the formation of 992 00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:24,839 Speaker 1: novel unexpected connections. They write, quote, the synergistic interleaving of 993 00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:30,240 Speaker 1: rim and non rim sleep may promote complex analogical problem solving. 994 00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: So again, this is kind of like the idea of 995 00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 1: you have two consultants, yes, weighing in on the problem. Yeah, 996 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:39,560 Speaker 1: exactly so. In in summary, the slow wave sleep, the 997 00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:43,239 Speaker 1: non rim sleep forms concepts and rules out of our 998 00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:47,399 Speaker 1: daily memories, and then rim sleep, the dreaming part of sleep, 999 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:51,040 Speaker 1: plays around by trying to get connections between them, sort 1000 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:56,120 Speaker 1: of trying out different weird things in an uncensored, uncontrolled way. 1001 00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: And this cycle repeatedly happens throughout the night in roughly 1002 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,360 Speaker 1: ninety minute periods as we mentioned earlier. So the implication 1003 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,399 Speaker 1: is that if you get more sleep, your brain has 1004 00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:08,440 Speaker 1: more opportunities to form connections and solve problems in strange 1005 00:55:08,480 --> 00:55:11,600 Speaker 1: and unexpected ways in your waking life. Of course, this 1006 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 1: can translate into creativity and out of the box thinking. Now, 1007 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,200 Speaker 1: Penelope Lewis agrees that the model she and her co 1008 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:21,720 Speaker 1: authors have constructed here is probably not exactly correct yet 1009 00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,520 Speaker 1: but thinks it's sort of in the right direction of 1010 00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:28,960 Speaker 1: forming a final explanation of how sleep aids and creativity. Uh. 1011 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,000 Speaker 1: And there was a good article I read in The 1012 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,560 Speaker 1: Atlantic by Ed Young that discussed this new research and 1013 00:55:34,840 --> 00:55:36,839 Speaker 1: quoted at least one of the researcher in the field 1014 00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,040 Speaker 1: who who agrees it might not be totally there yet, 1015 00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:41,120 Speaker 1: but it's a step in the right direction. Now, as 1016 00:55:41,160 --> 00:55:43,359 Speaker 1: we begin our final approach here towards the closing out 1017 00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:45,759 Speaker 1: the episode, I thought we should maybe get into a 1018 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:49,239 Speaker 1: little futurism and sci fi. All right, man, let's do it. 1019 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:51,680 Speaker 1: In a previous episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind, uh, 1020 00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 1: titled Conjoined Dreamers, we discussed this really interesting work of 1021 00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:00,840 Speaker 1: a futurism that came out. It was it was commissioned 1022 00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,440 Speaker 1: by Travel Lodge. Yeah, in two thousand and eleven they 1023 00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,680 Speaker 1: got noted futurist Dr Ian Pearson to weigh in on 1024 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:11,799 Speaker 1: where hotel technology is going and indeed what the experience 1025 00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: of checking into a hotel might consist of in the 1026 00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:18,799 Speaker 1: year five more vivid hotel nightmares. Wait, Robert, do you 1027 00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:22,080 Speaker 1: get hotel nightmares? I have certainly experienced this before, because 1028 00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:24,920 Speaker 1: this is a known situation like the first night you 1029 00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:28,279 Speaker 1: spend in a new location, such as a hotel, you're 1030 00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:30,879 Speaker 1: going to have trouble sleeping. You're gonna have a lot more. 1031 00:56:30,960 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: I believe it's the default mode network that is more active. Yeah, 1032 00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,680 Speaker 1: it's not just that huge surplus of pillows that that 1033 00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,720 Speaker 1: makes you dream bad. It's it's being in an unfamiliar place. 1034 00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:43,520 Speaker 1: Oh man, all those cool pillows. It's it's an attractive idea. 1035 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,640 Speaker 1: But there's too too many pillows on hotel beds. Wouldn't 1036 00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,399 Speaker 1: you agree, Why didn't that many pillows? Yes, there are, 1037 00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:51,320 Speaker 1: there are way too many, but they go on the floor. 1038 00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:53,440 Speaker 1: So when you have that that nightmare the first night, 1039 00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:58,000 Speaker 1: you fall out onto pillow. So, following a six month study, 1040 00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,879 Speaker 1: A Pierson laid out his vision of the future, and 1041 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,840 Speaker 1: it's it's pretty tremendous. You can you can look this, 1042 00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,279 Speaker 1: uh this travel Edge study up. It's available online. But 1043 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,799 Speaker 1: you know, he said that any surface or fabric in 1044 00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,319 Speaker 1: the hotel room might be electronically enhanced to make you 1045 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:15,520 Speaker 1: see your stay better. Uh, they may admit a particular 1046 00:57:15,560 --> 00:57:19,320 Speaker 1: nostalgic cent serve as a virtual display. It's just this 1047 00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,160 Speaker 1: sci fi vision really of what a hotel room could be, 1048 00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:24,240 Speaker 1: but what do we do in the hotel room will 1049 00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:28,120 Speaker 1: obviously we sleep and we dream. So Pearson's predictions play 1050 00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,000 Speaker 1: a great deal with the idea of not only virtual 1051 00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:35,880 Speaker 1: reality and even virtual sex, but technologically augmented dream states. 1052 00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 1: He wrote, quote, the benefits of sleep time learning will 1053 00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:43,000 Speaker 1: be more widely known in we will be able to 1054 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: use the dream management system as our own external coach, 1055 00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,919 Speaker 1: delivering training programs or giving sleepers the opportunity to learn 1056 00:57:50,960 --> 00:57:54,880 Speaker 1: and practice useful life skills whilst to sleep. Sleepers will 1057 00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,520 Speaker 1: be able to learn a new language whilst following asleep, 1058 00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:04,240 Speaker 1: or study towards a qualification or learning new skill. Ye okay, 1059 00:58:04,280 --> 00:58:07,280 Speaker 1: I mean I I'm not sure I am confident that 1060 00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,800 Speaker 1: all of that is true, but that's it's interesting to 1061 00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 1: entertain as a possibility. Now. Another interesting treatment of this 1062 00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:18,760 Speaker 1: comes from a nine novel by sci fi author Peter Watts. 1063 00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,240 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and this is the novel Starfish that I've 1064 00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: I've already referenced on the show before. And Watts really 1065 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,520 Speaker 1: loads his books with a lot of of scientific material. 1066 00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:32,360 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, what What's I think? Has some of the 1067 00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:37,400 Speaker 1: best most interesting reads on the implications of future technology 1068 00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:42,400 Speaker 1: and sort of transhuman consciousness states of pretty much anybody. Yeah, 1069 00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:45,720 Speaker 1: and again he puts a lot of ideas into his books. 1070 00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: So that's why the book has come up yet again. 1071 00:58:48,080 --> 00:58:50,240 Speaker 1: But I'm just gonna read a quick paragraph from it 1072 00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:52,480 Speaker 1: to give you a taste of how he uses kind 1073 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:56,720 Speaker 1: of this kind of dream augmentation technology In the novel quote, 1074 00:58:56,960 --> 00:58:59,600 Speaker 1: a lot of it happened while he was sleeping. Every night, 1075 00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:01,920 Speaker 1: they'd get of him an injection to help him learn, 1076 00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:06,240 Speaker 1: Scanlon said. Afterwards, a machine beside his bed would feed 1077 00:59:06,320 --> 00:59:09,760 Speaker 1: him dreams. He could never exactly remember them, but something 1078 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,840 Speaker 1: must have stuck, because every morning he'd sit at the 1079 00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:16,520 Speaker 1: console with his tutor, a real person though not a program, 1080 00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,320 Speaker 1: and all the text and diagrams she showed him would 1081 00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,520 Speaker 1: be strangely familiar, like he'd known it all years ago 1082 00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:26,919 Speaker 1: and had just forgotten. Now he remembered everything. I love 1083 00:59:26,920 --> 00:59:30,040 Speaker 1: how Watts calibrates this. So you have the you have 1084 00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:34,120 Speaker 1: the dream technology. We also have a pharmaceutical component and 1085 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,360 Speaker 1: a waking world a tutoring component, all seeming to work 1086 00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,200 Speaker 1: in tandem just to like rapidly educate you on a topic. Now, 1087 00:59:42,400 --> 00:59:46,760 Speaker 1: I wonder, in in contradistinction, to these two visions we've 1088 00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,880 Speaker 1: been talking about about the possibility of learning in your sleep, 1089 00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:54,720 Speaker 1: whether if that were possible, it would interfere with sleep's 1090 00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:59,360 Speaker 1: importance in strengthening and consolidating what you've learned while you 1091 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,640 Speaker 1: were awake. Ah. I like that, and you know, we 1092 01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:04,240 Speaker 1: on one one hand, I like it in the sci 1093 01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,520 Speaker 1: fi sense because I don't like the idea of staying 1094 01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: at a hotel in the hotel is keeping me from um, 1095 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:13,760 Speaker 1: you know, from from actively processing my memories of the day. 1096 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,040 Speaker 1: But it does fit into a very sci fi context, 1097 01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,040 Speaker 1: like this company is training you to do some sort 1098 01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:22,360 Speaker 1: of hazardous job. They don't really care if you're able 1099 01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,520 Speaker 1: to work through your daily anxiety and social stress. They 1100 01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:27,760 Speaker 1: just want you to know how to you know, tend 1101 01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:31,400 Speaker 1: some sort of you know, underwater power station. Right. So, 1102 01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,040 Speaker 1: I think this is a valid point to what extent 1103 01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,680 Speaker 1: would you be interfering with the purpose of dreams. Now 1104 01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:37,840 Speaker 1: here's a weird thing. This actually just occurred to me. 1105 01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:40,080 Speaker 1: But I wonder, in a kind of sci fi sense, 1106 01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:46,960 Speaker 1: if directed disruption of memory consolidation during sleep phaces could 1107 01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:51,000 Speaker 1: actually be used in a pinpointed way to disrupt the 1108 01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:55,040 Speaker 1: consolidation of negative memory. You've got somebody who's had a 1109 01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:58,480 Speaker 1: traumatic experience during the day, the next time they go 1110 01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,720 Speaker 1: to sleep. I wonder if you know, Okay, so, is 1111 01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:04,480 Speaker 1: that night's sleep going to begin consolidating negative memories that 1112 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:06,440 Speaker 1: are going to form the basis of a post traumatic 1113 01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:09,280 Speaker 1: stress disorder? And would it be possible to say, Okay, 1114 01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,320 Speaker 1: with tonight's sleep, we've got a way to to target 1115 01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:15,520 Speaker 1: the consolidation of that memory and disrupt it, to prevent 1116 01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,959 Speaker 1: it from taking hold in such a strongly emotional way 1117 01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:21,200 Speaker 1: as it might on its own. I can't help but 1118 01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,960 Speaker 1: feel like these possibilities are inevitable, because, like we say, 1119 01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,040 Speaker 1: we're still figuring out the mysteries of sleep. We're still 1120 01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:31,360 Speaker 1: figuring out exactly what sleep and dream is really all about. 1121 01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:35,200 Speaker 1: But once we do, if and when we get there, 1122 01:01:35,720 --> 01:01:38,320 Speaker 1: it seems inevitable that we will find new ways to 1123 01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,800 Speaker 1: manipulate it. Yeah, I think that's probably true. I mean, 1124 01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:45,560 Speaker 1: I think sleep still holds many mysteries. Even with all 1125 01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:47,600 Speaker 1: the research we've been talking about today, We've just been 1126 01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,000 Speaker 1: talking about one avenue. You know, the role of sleep 1127 01:01:50,000 --> 01:01:53,360 Speaker 1: and dreams and creative problem solving. There's all this memory 1128 01:01:53,360 --> 01:01:56,280 Speaker 1: consolidation stuff, we didn't really get into in any depth. 1129 01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:58,800 Speaker 1: And then there are other questions as well. I think 1130 01:01:58,800 --> 01:02:02,640 Speaker 1: that there are are deep, deep unsolved mysteries about the 1131 01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:04,960 Speaker 1: role of sleep, and it's a lot of fertile ground 1132 01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,960 Speaker 1: for scientific exploration. Yeah, like one idea we didn't even 1133 01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,120 Speaker 1: get into here that I think we discussed in our 1134 01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:12,880 Speaker 1: past episode. And lucid dreaming is like the question, well, 1135 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:17,080 Speaker 1: when you lucid dream, are you interfering in the true 1136 01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:20,200 Speaker 1: purpose of dreaming? If you were taking control of the wheel, 1137 01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,160 Speaker 1: then is that just does that make a difference? What 1138 01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:27,760 Speaker 1: if dreaming is not recreational or epiphenomenal, what if it's 1139 01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:31,280 Speaker 1: doing something important? Yeah, what if you buy a machine 1140 01:02:31,480 --> 01:02:34,680 Speaker 1: or get a prescription in the future that keeps you 1141 01:02:34,720 --> 01:02:38,160 Speaker 1: from having nightmares? Well I can't help but feel in 1142 01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,880 Speaker 1: a very kind of like black mirror sci fi way, 1143 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,520 Speaker 1: that there have to be ramifications for that. Or maybe 1144 01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:47,080 Speaker 1: I'm thinking more mythically. Surely there's the gods take something away, 1145 01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,840 Speaker 1: They're going to inflict something else on you in return. 1146 01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:52,360 Speaker 1: It's the curse of Zeus. Yeah, it gives you that 1147 01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,840 Speaker 1: eternal life, but not eternal youth, but eventually eternal sleep. 1148 01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,840 Speaker 1: So it all works out, and then it takes away 1149 01:02:58,880 --> 01:03:03,120 Speaker 1: your nightmares, but takes a way your soul, all right. 1150 01:03:03,240 --> 01:03:07,320 Speaker 1: So there you have it, um sleep, dreaming, learning while 1151 01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,600 Speaker 1: we dream of. Obviously, this is a topic that everyone 1152 01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:12,320 Speaker 1: is going to be able to relate to, so we 1153 01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,000 Speaker 1: would love to hear from everyone. I know. Sometimes people say, oh, 1154 01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to hear about anyone's dreams. Dreams are 1155 01:03:16,880 --> 01:03:19,560 Speaker 1: only interesting the person who dreamt them. I have never 1156 01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:22,360 Speaker 1: agreed with that. Tell me all about your dreams, even 1157 01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,600 Speaker 1: the boring ones. If they're just as boring as mine, 1158 01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,240 Speaker 1: then at least I'll feel content all right in the 1159 01:03:27,400 --> 01:03:29,040 Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out more 1160 01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,280 Speaker 1: episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, including the various 1161 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,919 Speaker 1: dream and sleep related episodes we've recorded over the years, 1162 01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:36,760 Speaker 1: head on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 1163 01:03:36,800 --> 01:03:39,440 Speaker 1: That's the mothership. That's where we'll find all those episodes, 1164 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,320 Speaker 1: links out to our various social media accounts, And as always, 1165 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:44,560 Speaker 1: if you want to support the show, make sure that 1166 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:47,240 Speaker 1: you rate and review us wherever you get your podcasts. 1167 01:03:47,240 --> 01:03:50,840 Speaker 1: Big thanks as always to our wonderful, excellent audio producers 1168 01:03:50,880 --> 01:03:53,800 Speaker 1: Alex Williams and Tari Harrison. If you want to get 1169 01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:56,160 Speaker 1: in touch with us to let us know your feedback 1170 01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,200 Speaker 1: about this episode or any other, or to uh, let 1171 01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:01,000 Speaker 1: us know a top you'd like us to cover in 1172 01:04:01,040 --> 01:04:03,600 Speaker 1: the future, or to just say hi, let us know 1173 01:04:03,640 --> 01:04:05,760 Speaker 1: where you listen from, how you found out about the show, 1174 01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:09,200 Speaker 1: what you think, what what creative avenues it's taking you down. 1175 01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:12,560 Speaker 1: You can email us at blow the Mind at how 1176 01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:24,720 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands 1177 01:04:24,760 --> 01:04:49,920 Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com