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Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

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Speaker 1: All right, It's Jorge and Daniel here. And this holiday season,

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Speaker 1: if you're looking for a gift for yourself or a

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Speaker 1: friend or for your family, Why not get them the

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Speaker 1: gift of answers about the universe. So check out our

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Speaker 1: new book Frequently ask Questions about the Universe. You can

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Speaker 1: find details at universe faq dot com. Thanks for supporting

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Speaker 1: the podcast. Happy holidays everyone. How much have you thought

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Speaker 1: about what it might be like to talk to aliens?

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Speaker 1: While biologists wonder about what form alien life might take,

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Speaker 1: linguists speculate about how we might communicate with them, and

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Speaker 1: conspiracy theorists wonder whether aliens have already visited Earth and

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Speaker 1: taken over our government. Physicists have long expressed confidence that

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Speaker 1: they could most easily find common ground with aliens, assuming

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Speaker 1: that math and physics are universal, not specific to Earth biology.

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Speaker 1: Even more than that, physicists practically salivated the prospect of

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Speaker 1: learning from aliens answers to big questions in physics, how

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Speaker 1: to bend space and time or crack open black holes

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Speaker 1: and play elaborate pranks on navy pilots. But what would

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Speaker 1: it actually be like to try to learn physics from aliens?

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Speaker 1: Could we even understand the cosmic secrets they might share

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Speaker 1: with us? Would they be so advanced it would be

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Speaker 1: like Schrodinger explaining quantum mechanics to his cat. Do we

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Speaker 1: actually share math and physics with every intelligent civilization out

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Speaker 1: there or would their minds be so alien it would

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Speaker 1: just be impossible. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist,

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Speaker 1: and I can't wait to talk to the aliens and

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Speaker 1: learn the secrets of the universe. There are so many

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Speaker 1: things we don't understand about the universe, and if aliens

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Speaker 1: visit or manage to send us a message, it seems

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Speaker 1: likely that they might have been working on these questions

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Speaker 1: for thousands or millions, or even billions of years. Imagine

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Speaker 1: catapulting our understanding that far forward. We might learn about

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Speaker 1: how quantum mechanics really works, or what's inside a black hole,

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Speaker 1: or how the universe actually began. But is that making

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Speaker 1: a basic mistake? Assuming that humans and aliens might think

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Speaker 1: about science in the same way, how could we possibly

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Speaker 1: anticipate what aliens might know, or think about or wonder

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Speaker 1: at so Welcome to the podcast Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 1: the Universe, a production of iHeartMedia in which we dive

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Speaker 1: deep into all these questions about the universe. We ask

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Speaker 1: the biggest, the deepest, the craziest questions, and we strain

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Speaker 1: for answers, explaining to you everything we understand and everything

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Speaker 1: that we don't. My friend and co host Jorge is

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Speaker 1: on a break, but I have a special treat for

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Speaker 1: you today. We are very lucky to have as a

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Speaker 1: guest one of the leading scholars in the field of

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Speaker 1: the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Today we'll be talking to

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Speaker 1: Jill Tarter, astronomer and longtime chair of the SETI program,

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Speaker 1: the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence, and so today on the program,

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Speaker 1: we'll be asking the question how should we be searching

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Speaker 1: for extraterrestrial life? So it's my great pleasure to introduce

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Speaker 1: doctor Jill Tarter. She's very well known for leading the

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Speaker 1: SETI program for many years, and is also famous for

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Speaker 1: introducing the phrase brown dwarf in her pH d thesis,

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Speaker 1: which she completed at Berkeley nineteen seventy five. But she's

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Speaker 1: also been a leading voice in the search for extraterrestrial

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Speaker 1: life and intelligence for more than three decades and has

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Speaker 1: won many awards, including the Carl Sagan Prize for Science Popularization,

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Speaker 1: and being elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Tarter, Welcome to the podcast. Thank you for joining us,

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 4: Daniel.

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Speaker 1: So I actually doug into your thesis a little bit.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was quite fascinating.

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Speaker 4: Big basis to begin to.

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Speaker 1: Well, I actually also got my PhD from Berkeley, though

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Speaker 1: several years later, and I was curious reading through it.

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Speaker 1: It's not obvious the direction your career would take. So

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Speaker 1: how did you get into the search for extraterrestrial intelligence?

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Speaker 3: Like?

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Speaker 1: What set you on that course?

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Speaker 4: Well, it all had to do with Berkeley Graduate School

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Speaker 4: and it was a big accident. So my first year

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Speaker 4: at Berkeley, I was supported on a research assistantship to

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Speaker 4: program the first computer that we ever had on our desktop.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 4: So it was a PDP eight slash s and it

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Speaker 4: took two people to get it on the desktop, so

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Speaker 4: it wasn't that small. But the other thing about it

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Speaker 4: was that it had no language, so you had to

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Speaker 4: program the whole thing in optal. For every instruction you

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Speaker 4: wanted it to do, you had to set all the

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Speaker 4: ones in zeros. Kind of a pretty arcane skill. But

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Speaker 4: I found it interesting and fun, and so I did

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Speaker 4: that for a year and then I went on to

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Speaker 4: do other things. Finally, many years later, when I was

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Speaker 4: about to finish my PhD and go off to a

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Speaker 4: post dog. Stu Boyer, an X ray astronomer, had a

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Speaker 4: really clever idea. He'd been reading the material that had

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Speaker 4: been put out by NASA AMES on the search for

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Speaker 4: life beyond Earth, and he said, you know, UC Berkeley

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Speaker 4: has a radio telescope in northern California, and he was

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Speaker 4: clever enough to know that with a radio telescope you

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Speaker 4: can make essentially a noiseless copy of the voltage coming

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Speaker 4: out of the telescope, and then on your copy you

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Speaker 4: could process it looking for engineered signals while the astronomers

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Speaker 4: went ahead and did whatever they were going to do anyway.

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Speaker 4: So very clever, this idea of observing commensally. But he

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Speaker 4: had no money, so he went begging for pieces of equipment,

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Speaker 4: and somebody gave him a one hundred channel par autocarlator,

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Speaker 4: and somebody else gave him this old PDP eight s computer.

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Speaker 4: So somebody pointed out to Stu that I used to

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Speaker 4: work on that computer, and he showed up in my

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Speaker 4: office one afternoon with a copy of the cyclops report

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Speaker 4: that had been done at NASA AIMES, saying the way

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Speaker 4: to find extraterrestrial intelligence was to build an array of

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Speaker 4: sixteen hundred hundred meter telescopes that never happened, But anyway,

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Speaker 4: he gave me that as a recruiting tool and I

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Speaker 4: read it and I just got really hooked. Here I

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Speaker 4: was with potentially the right skills in the right place,

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Speaker 4: at the right time to perhaps make a contribution to

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Speaker 4: answering this age old question of are we alone? So

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Speaker 4: I worked with the PDP eight s again and got

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Speaker 4: a program with Stu up and running at that creek,

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Speaker 4: and then, you know, as I said, I was hooked,

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Speaker 4: and I've stayed hooked ever since.

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Speaker 1: It amazes me how we sometimes see sciences as like linear, natural,

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Speaker 1: obvious progression, but so much of it depends on random accidents.

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Speaker 1: Who happens to talk to who and be inspired by what?

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Speaker 1: And if you ran the Earth science a hundred times

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Speaker 1: with different initial conditions, you might get completely different trajectories,

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Speaker 1: sort of intellectually, like where we end up as a species.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned this, the device that wasn't built. What

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Speaker 1: is SETI actually doing? What instruments are they using and operating,

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Speaker 1: and what are they actually listening for right now?

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Speaker 4: Well? SETI the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, which is a

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Speaker 4: misnomer because we don't know how to find intelligence per se.

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Speaker 4: We can't even define it. What we're doing is trying

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Speaker 4: to find evidence that somebody else is using some technology

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Speaker 4: that we can discover over the vast distances between the stars.

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Speaker 4: And so it started out as using radio telescopes to

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Speaker 4: try and find engineered signals, and then over time we

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Speaker 4: expanded it into optical searches and infrared searches, and now

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Speaker 4: we are trying to do something that we've known that

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Speaker 4: we should be doing for the past twenty years, but

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Speaker 4: just haven't had the technology to do it, and that

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Speaker 4: is to look for transient signals. And the trick there

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Speaker 4: is you want to look at all the sky, all

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Speaker 4: the time, and at as many frequencies as you possibly can.

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Speaker 4: And so now we are finally able to build starting

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Speaker 4: in the optical and then moving into the radio telescopes

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Speaker 4: that look at tens of thousands of square degrees at

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Speaker 4: a time, and in one case, if we can complete

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Speaker 4: the instrumentation, all the sky, all the time looking for

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Speaker 4: these transient signals. So that's the exciting frontier for SETI

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Speaker 4: today to try and get this sky coverage. And the

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Speaker 4: other exciting thing is to begin to look look at

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Speaker 4: the data in a different way. Historically, we have always

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Speaker 4: looked at data and said, is there a signal of

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Speaker 4: this description in the data, and we have defined the

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Speaker 4: signals that we're interested in as being frequency compressed in

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Speaker 4: the radio, or time compressed in the optical, or monochromatic

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Speaker 4: lasers in the optical. But now we're beginning to see

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Speaker 4: if we can use machine learning to help us find

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Speaker 4: patterns of any kind in the data without having to

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Speaker 4: pre describe what pattern we're looking for. So we're hoping

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Speaker 4: that algorithms in the future will be able to look

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Speaker 4: at data voltage is a function of time, intensity is

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Speaker 4: a function of time and say there's information content here,

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Speaker 4: or no, this is all noise.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating. If we need artificial intelligence to recognize alien intelligen.

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Speaker 4: Well, that alien intelligence is quite likely to be artificial

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Speaker 4: itself finding.

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Speaker 1: Machines, So maybe we need machines as interpreters. But still

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Speaker 1: we need to somehow train that machine learning. We need

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Speaker 1: to teach it the kind of things that we are

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Speaker 1: looking for. We can't just raising generic intelligence and say

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Speaker 1: go out and find some aliens right, doesn't there need

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Speaker 1: to be some thought in advance for the kinds of

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Speaker 1: things we're teaching our machine learning algorithm to find.

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Speaker 4: Well, actually, the real problem is how do you get

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Speaker 4: a null set? How do you give it data that

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Speaker 4: you know has no information content. You know, when you

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Speaker 4: have a data set and we've explored it for X, y,

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Speaker 4: and z, it doesn't mean that Q isn't there. So

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Speaker 4: generally to get a null set, you generate it randomly

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Speaker 4: on a computer and then you can give it lots

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Speaker 4: of examples of different signals that we have detected or

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Speaker 4: that we generate ourselves as the counter. And again it's

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Speaker 4: early days. We're very hopeful, and we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Right. I suppose you can't just take the data we

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Speaker 1: see from the sky and say assume there's nothing here,

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Speaker 1: because the whole point is to look for data in

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Speaker 1: the sky, So then it would learn to ignore signal

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Speaker 1: that is there. So you mentioned something fascinating, which is

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Speaker 1: thinking about the messages that we would send or the

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Speaker 1: ones that we have sent. And I know that in

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Speaker 1: the early days of space exploration. You know, for example,

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Speaker 1: there's a golden record we put on some of our

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Speaker 1: probes and there's a message we sent out via Arisibo.

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Speaker 1: How do you look at those messages that we've sent

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Speaker 1: sort of with modern eyes, How would you design a

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Speaker 1: message to generic aliens now you hope would be observable

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Speaker 1: and detectable to the broadest set of intelligence.

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Speaker 4: Well, I do something that we haven't done with the

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Speaker 4: Arecibo message or any of the other messages that we've transmitted,

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Speaker 4: and that is I would do it for ten thousand years,

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Speaker 4: all right. If you send a finite transmission, then that

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Speaker 4: message is going to go past your target in a

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Speaker 4: finite amount of time, and the receivers would have to

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Speaker 4: be looking at you at just the right time, in

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Speaker 4: just the right way as your message flies past in

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Speaker 4: order to detect it. And the probability of that is

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Speaker 4: pretty small. So I think what you want to do

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Speaker 4: is start transmitting and then don't stop right so that

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Speaker 4: whenever an emerging technology wakes up and begins to explore

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Speaker 4: its environment, your signal will be there for them to

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Speaker 4: find when and if they develop the right technologies and

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Speaker 4: the right strategy and are motivated to be looking. So

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Speaker 4: that's I think what I would do, and the reason

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Speaker 4: that I'm not at all in emor of efforts to

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Speaker 4: transmit messages today because we're just not grown up enough

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Speaker 4: to be able to culturally be able to manage such

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Speaker 4: a long term project.

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Speaker 1: It's like just shouting once in the night and hoping

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Speaker 1: that somebody hears. You know, it's fascinating as our message

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Speaker 1: sort of sweeps across the universe. It's always somewhere, but

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Speaker 1: the chances that it happens to arrive when somebody is

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Speaker 1: listening do seem pretty small. Do you think that's something

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Speaker 1: our civilization would ever be capable of of sending messages

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Speaker 1: for tens of thousands of years? Do you think our

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Speaker 1: civilization will last long enough to be able to do that?

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Speaker 4: I hope so. And in fact, one of the things

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Speaker 4: that I think about is that suppose the distribution of

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Speaker 4: lifetimes of technological civilizations or technologies, because that's what we're

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Speaker 4: going to find is the technology is bimodal, So you

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Speaker 4: have lots of short lived technologies. They emerge, develop and

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Speaker 4: either turn themselves off or do themselves in. They don't

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Speaker 4: have a very long lifetime when compared to the ten

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Speaker 4: billion year history of the Milky Way galaxy. But now

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Speaker 4: there might be an addition some very long lived civilizations.

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Speaker 4: And it might be that the probability of listening from

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Speaker 4: short lived technology to a long lived technology is dependent

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Speaker 4: on discovering other technological civilizations that have made it to

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Speaker 4: an old age. And I think that's one of the

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Speaker 4: things that today motivates me to continue working on this project.

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Speaker 4: How can we have a long future for life on

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Speaker 4: this planet? And if so, how? And the answer to

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Speaker 4: me is, if anybody else has made it through, that

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Speaker 4: means we can figure it out too.

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Speaker 1: So are you suggesting that discovering a long standing alien

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Speaker 1: civilization might help us build a civilization that's long standing

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Speaker 1: just knowing that it's possible.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think that's not unlikely or not impossible. If

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Speaker 4: I know that there's a solution to a problem, even

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Speaker 4: if I can't figure it out right now, I have

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Speaker 4: more motivation to figure out the solution. I know it's possible,

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Speaker 4: So how the heck am I going to solve them?

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Speaker 1: That's very inspirational. I hope that's true. In all of

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Speaker 1: these searches, we're looking for signals, signals generated by technologies

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Speaker 1: which in the end are somewhat similar to ours, and

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Speaker 1: there seems to be an implicit assumption there that their information,

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Speaker 1: their messages will be encoded in ways that are familiar

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Speaker 1: to us, even if the actual code is alien. The

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Speaker 1: fact that they are sending messages coded in electromagnetic radiation

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Speaker 1: of some kind assumes that the civilization is mathematical or scientific.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that it's possible for us to imagine

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Speaker 1: aliens in a more broad sense, you know, to think

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Speaker 1: about aliens that might not do math or might not

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Speaker 1: have a scientific exploration, or do you think that we

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Speaker 1: can only search for aliens that are sort of similar

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Speaker 1: to us intellectually that we could ever communicate with them.

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Speaker 4: Well, they're kind of two pieces to that question. One,

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Speaker 4: we have a certain amount of technology in the twenty

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Speaker 4: first century, and we understand a certain subset of physics,

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Speaker 4: and those are the tools we have. We can't use

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Speaker 4: tools that we don't have. We can't search for things

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Speaker 4: that we don't yet understand. And in terms of another technology,

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Speaker 4: we're actually trying to think more broadly than we originally did,

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Speaker 4: so not just radio signals or not just optical signals,

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Speaker 4: but something that we call a techno signature, something that

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Speaker 4: is the result of someone doing something with technology out there,

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Speaker 4: and it's particularly important to think about that now because

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Speaker 4: we're moving from the generation of ten meter class optical

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Speaker 4: instruments and one hundred element interferometers to thirty forty meter

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Speaker 4: telescopes and interferometers like mearkt square kilometer array that are

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Speaker 4: going to have thousands of elements. So our ability to

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Speaker 4: see things on the sky is going to improve dramatically,

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Speaker 4: and we want to be thinking about, oh, what's that,

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Speaker 4: and how the what's that might be interpreted in terms

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Speaker 4: of technology, So we're thinking about signals that are almost

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Speaker 4: natural or things that are obviously engineered. And obviously engineered

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Speaker 4: has been the piece that we've been doing thus far.

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Speaker 4: But when you begin to think about almost natural, you

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Speaker 4: think about maybe a pulsar, right which has a period

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Speaker 4: it's very constant, and then it changes its period. Now

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Speaker 4: we've seen that in the data because there are starquakes

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Speaker 4: on these neutron stars that change the moment of inertia

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Speaker 4: and change the period of the pulsar. But what we

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Speaker 4: haven't seen is a pulsar that starts at one period,

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Speaker 4: changes to a second period, and then goes back to

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Speaker 4: the first period. But those could well be in our

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Speaker 4: data sets as we search the sky for pulsars, so

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Speaker 4: it's almost natural, and we would catch it in a

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Speaker 4: net when we're doing an astronomy survey. So another example

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Speaker 4: I like to think about is transit. So we've been

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Speaker 4: finding all these exoplanets because they cast a shadow on

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Speaker 4: the image of the star and change the stellar luminosity

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Speaker 4: as the planet transits in front of the star. Now,

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Speaker 4: the IAU has declared that planets are spherical, right, and

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Speaker 4: so their shadows are going to be circular. But what

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Speaker 4: about some giant constructed artifact that's like a Venetian blind

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Speaker 4: or a triangle. Well, in the higher order moments of

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Speaker 4: the light curve at ingress and egress, you could tell

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Speaker 4: the difference if you looked hard enough, between a triangular

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Speaker 4: shadow and a circular shadow. So that might be an

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Speaker 4: almost natural signal that would in fact ultimately lead us

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Speaker 4: to technology.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Fascinating. So we have a whole spectrum of things

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Speaker 1: which we classify as natural because we think they're not

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Speaker 1: the product of intelligent action. Things are clearly artificial, like

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Speaker 1: a signal that says hello, we got your a resiba message,

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Speaker 1: here's our address. And now you're imagining things in between

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Speaker 1: which are subtle evidence of deviations from sort of natural

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Speaker 1: evolution of the universe because of intelligent actions.

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Speaker 4: You know, we are going to have so many new

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Speaker 4: and different eyes on the cosmos that we ought to

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Speaker 4: be broadening our thinking.

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Speaker 1: That's fascinating and it seems like a very worthwhile. It

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Speaker 1: still seems to me to be indicative of sort of

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Speaker 1: the way that our minds work. We build things that

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Speaker 1: are square, we build things that are symmetric, and we're

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Speaker 1: imagining that maybe aliens could do that as well. And

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Speaker 1: I certainly take your point that we can't look for

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Speaker 1: things that we don't understand, and we can't look for

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Speaker 1: things that we can't imagine. Does that frustrate you that

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Speaker 1: you know that it might be that the spectrum of

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Speaker 1: intelligence aliens out there could be so much broader than

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Speaker 1: we can imagine that it might make it impossible to

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Speaker 1: ever discover them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, for the longest time, we said, okay, if they

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Speaker 4: have some technology that we might be able to detect

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Speaker 4: in some fashion, they're going to have to have math. Right,

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Speaker 4: we can't build things without some artificial way to represent

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Speaker 4: them and construct them.

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Speaker 1: And so we.

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Speaker 4: Thought, okay, so that means math is the universal language

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Speaker 4: of the cosmos. And then we had some really interesting

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Speaker 4: talks at the Seti Institute by people who study the

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Speaker 4: human brain, and they pointed out that, yeah, they might

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Speaker 4: well have math and be representing exactly the same things

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Speaker 4: that our mathematical programs do, but that all math and

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Speaker 4: the way we represent things is inevitably shaped by the

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Speaker 4: nature and structure of our human brain. And so they

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Speaker 4: might well be talking about exactly the same thing, the

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Speaker 4: same mathematics, but the representation of it might be so

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Speaker 4: different that we don't recognize it as such. So now

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Speaker 4: that's Soubbery now.

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Speaker 1: And if you look back at the sort of the

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Speaker 1: history of the development of mathematics and the philosophy of mathematics,

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Speaker 1: you know there are still like big open questions about

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Speaker 1: how to even build a mathematical system that's self consistent,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of mathematicians, practicing mathematicians sort of ignore

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Speaker 1: that and say, look, we have a system that mostly works.

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Speaker 1: We can get stuff done. But it tells you that

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Speaker 1: if human history had gone another way, if a different

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Speaker 1: philosopher had been born or been influential, we might all

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Speaker 1: think very differently mathematically. And so if the spectrum of

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Speaker 1: like possible human explorations of you know, ways to think

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Speaker 1: is so potentially broad, and it's sort of terrifying to

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Speaker 1: imagine how broad it might be when you include aliens.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well, there are anthropologists who tell us that there

400
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,399
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401
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,720
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402
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Speaker 4: can do, and you can't do what you can't yet do.

403
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442
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443
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451
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452
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Speaker 1: cheese into your mouth, or enjoy a rich spoonful of

453
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: Greek yogurt, you're probably not the about the environmental impact

454
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: of each and every bite, but the people in the

455
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: dairy industry are US. Dairy has set themselves some ambitious

456
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,479
Speaker 1: sustainability goals, including being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty to fifty.

457
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: That's why they're working hard every day to find new

458
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 1: ways to reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down

459
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,639
Speaker 1: greenhouse gas emissions. Take water, for example, most dairy farms

460
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 1: reuse water up to four times the same water cools

461
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: the milk, cleans equipment, washes the barn, and irrigates the crops.

462
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 1: How is US dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use

463
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 1: anaerobic digestors that turn the methane from maneure into renewable

464
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: energy that can power farms, towns, and electric cars. So

465
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 1: the next time you grab a slice of pizza or

466
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: lick an ice cream cone, know that dairy farmers and

467
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: processors around the country are using the latest practices and

468
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: innovations to provide the nutrient dense dairy products we love

469
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 1: with less of an impact. Visit usdairy dot com slash

470
00:27:51,920 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: sustainability to learn more. So you've been working on this

471
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: for a while, how long do you expect that this

472
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 1: project might take? I mean, when Lego turned on, for example,

473
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 1: I remember thinking, well, they have no idea how common

474
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 1: gravitational waves are, and they had no clue whether they

475
00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: would wait decades for the first signal, and of course

476
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: they were lucky they heard something almost immediately, and it's

477
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: been a treasure trove. Do you harbor such hopes that,

478
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, if we expand our capabilities to listen to

479
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 1: the sky, that we might learn something soon.

480
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: I don't know about soon. I think this could well

481
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 4: be a multi generational exploration. And the reason I say

482
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 4: that is that the volume that might need to be searched,

483
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 4: even if an electromagnetic signal is the right thing to

484
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 4: be looking for, that volume is really vast. And so

485
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 4: when SETI turned fifty, I tried to do calculation that

486
00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 4: would show how vast it was and how much we

487
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: had searched to date for an electromagnetic signal. Again, assuming

488
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 4: that's the right thing to be looking for, there are

489
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 4: nine different parameters that you have to explore space and

490
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 4: time and polarization and modulation and intensity all of us.

491
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 4: And so I tried to make a guess at how

492
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 4: what the range of each of those parameters might be,

493
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 4: and then I multiplied them altogether some sort of a

494
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 4: nine dimensional volume. And I'm not any good at visualizing

495
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 4: nine dimensional volumes. So I said, okay, here's the analogy

496
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: that volume. I'm going to set it equal to the

497
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 4: volume of all the Earth's oceans and then ask how

498
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: much of the Earth's oceans have we searched in fifty years.

499
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 4: And at that time the answer was one glass of

500
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 4: water out of the ocean.

501
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 5: Right.

502
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 4: That shows you how vast the search might need to be.

503
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 4: And then when SETI turned six stay ten years later,

504
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 4: the students at Penn State, we did the calculation and

505
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 4: they said, oh, it's not a glass, it's more like

506
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 4: a small swimming pool. So that was a big improvement

507
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 4: over ten years, but still not a lot of the ocean.

508
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 4: So I think that it might be multi generational, either

509
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 4: because we haven't yet invented the right technology, we don't

510
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 4: understand the physics that's involved, or simply because the search

511
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 4: is so vast it's going to take a while. It's

512
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 4: getting faster all the time, primarily because of Moore's law

513
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 4: and the improvements in our computational capabilities, but it may

514
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 4: have to go on for a while.

515
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 1: The exciting thing for me about research like that is

516
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,320
Speaker 1: that you just don't know until you begin. If you're

517
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 1: searching for a signal which is obvious or really subtle.

518
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: Like in your ocean analogy, you only need a glass

519
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: of water to find salt, right, But if you're looking

520
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 1: for a particular fish, may have to look through millions

521
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 1: and millions of glasses. And in our case, we just

522
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: don't know right how many civilizations are out there they're

523
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: super rare, or if they're everywhere. So have your hope

524
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 1: sort of changed over the years that when you first

525
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: got involved in this, in that first project you described

526
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: using a PDP, did you think I might discover aliens

527
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: tomorrow if your hopes sort of kept up or have

528
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 1: they dimmed over the decades.

529
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 4: Well, that's still true. We could discover something tomorrow, or

530
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 4: it might be my granddaughter's generation that succeeds. We don't know.

531
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 4: And this is one of those questions that you don't

532
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 4: know the answer until you find the answer. And if

533
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 4: anybody you know, if I told you anything different, right,

534
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 4: that would be religion and not science, So no one knows.

535
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 4: I still think it's worthwhile. Humans have been asking themselves

536
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: this question since we walked out of the caves. We're

537
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 4: really intrigued with how we fit into the cosmos. Compare

538
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 4: something else that might be out there.

539
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: So every day you're looking at information could be the

540
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: day that you get the signal that says wow. And now,

541
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: like human history, pivots on that point, before that moment

542
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 1: and after that moment. So in your career or in

543
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: the decades that we've been doing this, have there been

544
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: any moments when you thought to yourself, this could be

545
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: any sort of like ooh, this looks real kind of moments.

546
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, there have been a few, and they've all turned

547
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 4: out to be false positives, but some of them took

548
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 4: a lot longer to dismiss than others. Let's see, we

549
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 4: usually observe with two widely spaced telescopes, and we require

550
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 4: that the signal be found at both and that it

551
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 4: have the appropriate light travel time between them, and then

552
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 4: it have if it's an arrowband signal, we can require

553
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: that it have a differential Doppler signature that represents the

554
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 4: Earth's rotation. Right, So we have all these tests that

555
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 4: we need to do. But back in nineteen I think

556
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 4: it was ninety eight, we were using a telescope in

557
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: green Bank, West Virginia and another one in Woodbury, Georgia,

558
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 4: and lightning struck the telescope in Georgia and went through

559
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 4: the electronics and fried a disk drive, so that telescope

560
00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 4: was off the air for days before FedEx could get

561
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 4: a new dis drive into the facility. But we still

562
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 4: had time, and that's of course a very precious thing

563
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 4: on the telescope in Green Bank, West Virginia. So we

564
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:42,239
Speaker 4: kept observing with that one telescope in a manner that

565
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 4: radio astronomers have often used. They stare at a target

566
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 4: or source, and then they look away, and then they

567
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 4: go back and they differentiate between the on and the

568
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 4: off source. So we tried that with the Green Bank telescope,

569
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 4: and sort of like five o'clock in the morning, I

570
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 4: saw a signal that was clearly artificial. Looked in this

571
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 4: waterfall plot, as we call it, like a picket fence.

572
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 4: So I saw multiple frequencies lit up, and the spacing

573
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 4: between those frequency features was constant. That's not mother nature.

574
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 4: And so I saw this every time I looked at

575
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 4: the target that we were tracking, and every time we

576
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 4: pointed the telescope away from that target, it went away.

577
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 4: And this went on for a while, and then I

578
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 4: finally got clever idea. I said, okay, we've been observing

579
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 4: here for a couple of weeks. Let me look through

580
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 4: all the data that we have taken when looking at

581
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 4: other parts of the sky and see if we've ever

582
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 4: seen a signal that has that frequency spacing right. It's

583
00:34:55,480 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 4: a very significant characteristic. And so I wrote a program

584
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 4: and it actually compiled me and I ran it. But

585
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 4: I was excited. I mean I was really excited, and

586
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 4: so I was sloppy with my output, and when I

587
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 4: looked at the output, I actually missed the fact that, yes,

588
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,760
Speaker 4: we'd seen that particular signature when looking in other places

589
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 4: on the side, but you know, being excited, and I

590
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 4: dismissed it. So we continued tracking that and I woke

591
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 4: up my colleagues, got them to help, and finally, as

592
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:40,439
Speaker 4: the source set in the west, the change in the

593
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 4: drift rate, the change with frequency and time of the

594
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 4: signal was consistent with something that was rising to the zenith,

595
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 4: not setting on the horizon. And so sadly, by the

596
00:35:56,880 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 4: end of the afternoon we knew that this wasn't a

597
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 4: real extraterrestrial signal. We didn't know what it was. It

598
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 4: took a while of doing web searches and it turned

599
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,600
Speaker 4: out it was the Soho spacecraft in orbit, not around

600
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 4: the Earth, we would have caught that much earlier, but

601
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 4: around the sun. And telescopes, like human eyes, which have

602
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 4: peripheral vision, telescopes have side lobes where the sensitivity is

603
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 4: much lower, but it's not zero. And so every time

604
00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 4: I pointed at the target, the sun would be in

605
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 4: the sidelobe, and when I moved the telescope to a

606
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 4: different direction, the sun fell out of that silope, and

607
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,439
Speaker 4: the sun tracked the Earth's rotation just as the target did.

608
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 4: And so it took us a while to figure that

609
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 4: one out, but it was exciting. It was immediately an

610
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 4: enormous amount of adrenaline, and then disappointing when we figured

611
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 4: it out, and we figured out a couple of different

612
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 4: ways to avoid having that happen to us again.

613
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: Well, it's a fascinating moment because on one hand, you

614
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 1: desperately want to believe it's sort of your scientific fantasy.

615
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 1: On the other hand, you want to push on it

616
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: as hard as possible because you definitely don't want to

617
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 1: announce something if it's not real, and so you have

618
00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 1: to be like the biggest cheerleader and also the biggest

619
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: skeptic at the same time.

620
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, make me a liar.

621
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 1: Exactly when you pop a piece of cheese into your

622
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: mouth or enjoy a rich spoonful of Greek yogurt, you're

623
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: probably not thinking about the environmental impact of each and

624
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: every bite, But the people in the dairy industry are.

625
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 1: US Dairy has set themselves some ambitious sustainability goals, including

626
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 1: being greenhouse gas neutral by twenty to fifty That's why

627
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: they're working hard every day to find new ways to

628
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: reduce waste, conserve natural resources, and drive down greenhouse gas emissions.

629
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 1: Take water, for example, most dairy farms reuse water up

630
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 1: to four times the same water cools the milk leen's equipment,

631
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: washes the barn, and irrigates the crops. How is US

632
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: dairy tackling greenhouse gases? Many farms use anaerobic digestors that

633
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 1: turn the methane from maneure into renewable energy that can

634
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: power farms, towns, and electric cars. So the next time

635
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:15,279
Speaker 1: you grab a slice of pizza or lick an ice

636
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: cream cone, know that dairy farmers and processors around the

637
00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: country are using the latest practices and innovations to provide

638
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,239
Speaker 1: the nutrient dense dairy products we love with less of

639
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: an impact. Visit us dairy dot com slash sustainability to

640
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:27,959
Speaker 1: learn more.

641
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643
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Speaker 6: Your teekings to be there now at AXS dot com.

652
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 3: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. If you follow me

653
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:35,800
Speaker 3: on social media, you know I love to cook, or

654
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 3: at least try, especially alongside some of my favorite chefs

655
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Speaker 3: and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen, Lighty Hoyke, Alison

656
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Speaker 3: Roman and of course Inagarten and Martha Stewart. So I

657
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 3: started a free newsletter called Good Taste that comes out

658
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 3: every Thursday, and it's serving up recipes that will make

659
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Speaker 3: your mouth water thank a candied bacon, bloody mary tacos

660
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Speaker 3: with cabbage law, curry cauliflower with almonds and mit, and

661
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Speaker 3: cherry slab pie with vanilla ice cream to top it

662
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 3: all off. I mean young, I'm getting hungry. But if

663
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,319
Speaker 3: you're not sold yet, we also have kitchen tips like

664
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665
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666
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667
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Speaker 3: need to do is sign up at Katiecuric dot com

668
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 3: slash good Taste. That's k A t I E c

669
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 3: o u ric dot com slash good Taste. I promise

670
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:32,959
Speaker 3: your taste buds will be happy you did.

671
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 7: Hi.

672
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 8: I'm David Eagleman from the podcast Inner Cosmos, which recently

673
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 8: hit the number one science podcast in America. I mean

674
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,920
Speaker 8: neuroscientists at Stanford, and I've spent my career exploring the

675
00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:48,920
Speaker 8: three pound universe in our heads. We're looking at a

676
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 8: whole new series of episodes this season to understand why

677
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,879
Speaker 8: and how our lives look the way they do. Why

678
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 8: does your memory drift so much? Why is it so

679
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 8: hard to keep a secret? When should you not trust

680
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 8: your intuition? Why do brains so easily fall for magic tricks?

681
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 8: And why do they love conspiracy theories? I'm hitting these

682
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 8: questions and hundreds more because the more we know about

683
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 8: what's running under the hood, the better we can steer

684
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 8: our lives. Join me weekly to explore the relationship between

685
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 8: your brain and your life by digging into unexpected questions.

686
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,759
Speaker 8: Listen to Inner Cosmos with David Eagleman on the iHeartRadio app,

687
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 8: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

688
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 1: So, what would happen? Wellcus through, what would happen if

689
00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: you got a signal and you were not able to

690
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: identify as coming from any satellite or any nearby object,

691
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: and all the evidence pointed to it coming from another

692
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: star and it seemed sincerely artificial. Is there a real protocol,

693
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: sort of political for what happens in that scenario? Do

694
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,399
Speaker 1: you have to contact US government or are you allowed

695
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:06,359
Speaker 1: to talk to scientists from other countries about it?

696
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: Well, when we were an ass the project, yeah, there

697
00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 4: was a protocol and it included which associate administrator was

698
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 4: going to notify the White House? Right, it was that detail.

699
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 4: Now that we are philanthropically privately funded and the other

700
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: SETI projects like Breakthrough This and are also privately funded,

701
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 4: there is a protocol that we've informally agreed upon. It

702
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 4: has no enforceability, but basically it says, at the discovery site,

703
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 4: you try and use another instrument now that you know

704
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 4: what you're looking for. Probably a normal off the shelf

705
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 4: Hewlett Packard spectrometer will allow you to find that signal.

706
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 4: So you try and just detect it with instrumentation that

707
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,919
Speaker 4: you didn't build and software that you didn't write as

708
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 4: a confirmation. And then if you do that and you

709
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 4: have some more confidence, then indeed you do quietly call

710
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 4: up the director of some observatory to the west and

711
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 4: ask for a little bit of discretionary time to see,

712
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 4: knowing what they're looking for, if they can detect the signal,

713
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,279
Speaker 4: and that's probably your best headge against a hoax, a

714
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 4: deliberate hoax. And then if you get that independent confirmation,

715
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 4: then you sit down and figure out how you're going

716
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 4: to tell the world. And one of the things that

717
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 4: you might consider doing is sending out what used to

718
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 4: be called an IAU telegram, something that goes to all

719
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 4: the observatories around the world, discreetly telling them what you've

720
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 4: found and prepping them for the fact that there will

721
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 4: be a press conference coming up very quickly, because what

722
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,600
Speaker 4: you want to do is train up a bunch of

723
00:43:56,200 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 4: professionals who can interpret for their local media what's actually

724
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 4: been found, and not leave the media to make it

725
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 4: up for themselves, right, because it's probably going to be

726
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:14,760
Speaker 4: maybe ambiguous, right, and you don't want the media writing

727
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 4: their own story, so you'd like to give them as

728
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 4: much assistance in understanding what's really been discovered. And then

729
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 4: you tell the world, and you want to be very

730
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 4: careful that you make sure that everyone who's been involved

731
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 4: in any way gets appropriate credit. Then you hope that

732
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 4: the network at the SETI Institute or wherever the discovery

733
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 4: site is doesn't melt from the world trying to get

734
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,160
Speaker 4: hold of you, and you see what happens.

735
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: So walk through a hypothetical best case scenario. Say we

736
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 1: see an artificial signal and other people confirm it and

737
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: we believe that it's there, Then what do we do?

738
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: Do we respond? Do you write a message back and

739
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,800
Speaker 1: you spend a decade trying to decoded understand the contents

740
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: of it and debate how to respond. Do we spend

741
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: one hundred years going back and forth before we learn

742
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 1: each other's language and understand each other's mathematics.

743
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,840
Speaker 4: Oh, we've thought about it, and we've held workshops and basically,

744
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 4: should we respond and if so, who will speak for Earth?

745
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 4: And what will they say? And I think the disappointing

746
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 4: thing for me at the moment is we've held a

747
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 4: number of workshops. They haven't really involved very much of

748
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 4: the world's diverse cultures. It's been sort of pretty waspy

749
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,399
Speaker 4: and pretty male. So we continue to think about this,

750
00:45:33,520 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 4: and I continue to try and find a way to

751
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:43,760
Speaker 4: take this question globally and find appropriate venues to ask

752
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 4: other cultures and other ways of being and thinking what

753
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 4: they would do, how they feel. So it's a work

754
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 4: in progress. You know, Freeman Dyson and Here's Alive would

755
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,959
Speaker 4: listen to me talk and this is a very very

756
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 4: highbrow approach to doing things. He would just chuckle and

757
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,919
Speaker 4: he'd say, come on, Jill, if you ever make such

758
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 4: an announcement, anybody anywhere on the planet that has access

759
00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 4: to a transmitter, we'll grab that transmitter and just start

760
00:46:17,680 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 4: saying whatever the hell they please, And then he you know,

761
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 4: with a twinkle in his eye and said, wouldn't that

762
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 4: cacophony be about the best representation of the Earth today

763
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,200
Speaker 4: that we could make.

764
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 1: That sounds like broadcasting Internet comment sections out to aliens essentially.

765
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: So the thing that's exciting but also frustrating to me

766
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,279
Speaker 1: is that there's so much information, you know, impacting the Earth,

767
00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: so much electromagnetic radiation and particle radation, that we are

768
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 1: just not gathering. You talk about like seeing the whole sky.

769
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:49,719
Speaker 1: The information from an alien species, from an extrastrian intelligence

770
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: could be hitting the Earth like right now at this

771
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 1: moment and just be you know, absorbed by rocks and

772
00:46:54,960 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 1: concrete and Walmart parking lots, et cetera. So I wonder

773
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,799
Speaker 1: what would you do if you were given in a

774
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: billion dollar or ten billion dollar or an unlimited budget.

775
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 1: It would be your sort of fantasy detector or observatory

776
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: to accomplish this task.

777
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:15,040
Speaker 4: We've thought about that, and because we can't promise results,

778
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:19,600
Speaker 4: because we can't say that we're even looking in the

779
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 4: right way right and maybe we should be looking for

780
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 4: zeta rays, except we don't know what zata rays are.

781
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 4: I would put that big chunk of money in an endowment,

782
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 4: and I would live off the interest from that endowment

783
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 4: to allow for a multi generational exploration, an opportunity in

784
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 4: the future to employ technologies that we don't have today.

785
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:51,800
Speaker 4: That would be my approach to it. There's certainly lots

786
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 4: of things that we would like to build, and we're

787
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 4: in the process of building some. And we're also getting

788
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 4: better at this concept to commensal observing. So in the radio,

789
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 4: for example, the very large array in Socorino, Mexico is

790
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 4: probably the most productive radio telescope that we have in

791
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 4: twenty seven to twenty five meter districts. So one of

792
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,320
Speaker 4: the people at the SETI Institute, Andrewsinian and his team

793
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 4: are figuring out a way to get the voltage out

794
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 4: of all of those antennas and build a commensal program

795
00:48:29,680 --> 00:48:33,000
Speaker 4: for that, and they'll take that and they'll apply it

796
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 4: in the future to the square kilometer array in South Africa.

797
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:40,520
Speaker 4: So there are new things we'd like to build. We've

798
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 4: got this error of going from I think already mentioned

799
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 4: ten meter class optical telescopes to thirty and forty meter

800
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,399
Speaker 4: telescopes and the large synoptic survey telescope looking at all

801
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 4: the sky every few days. We need to figure out

802
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,879
Speaker 4: how we can piggyback on those how we can find

803
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 4: things in those data that make people go, huh, what's that.

804
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:11,120
Speaker 4: So there's a lot of things coming up neutrino detectors,

805
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,920
Speaker 4: there have been some suggestions of how information transferred with

806
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 4: neutrinos could impact other parameters that are easier to detect

807
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 4: than the neutrinos themselves. So I'd like to continue pushing

808
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 4: all of those things, looking at the universe in new ways,

809
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 4: looking at archival data for things like I think I

810
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 4: already explain these almost natural signals, and just keep in

811
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 4: mind that the conclusion that we are alone is so

812
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 4: significant that it really does require a systematic and very

813
00:49:55,160 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 4: thorough exploration of the cosmos before your will, and to

814
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 4: make that conclusion, Yep, give me a lot of money.

815
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 4: I'll put in an endowment. I'll live on the interest

816
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,200
Speaker 4: and do lots of interesting new things along the way.

817
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure well, if I was a zillionaire, I would

818
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,879
Speaker 1: definitely write a big check to SETI So thinking about

819
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,360
Speaker 1: you know, our real universe, of course, is absolutely fascinating.

820
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: But there's a lot of exploration of this topic in

821
00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: science fiction. And so if I could ask you, what

822
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: is it your sort of favorite depiction of extraterrestrial contact

823
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:29,880
Speaker 1: in movies or in a book, your favorite fictional depiction.

824
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 4: Well, Contact did a really great job, right because it

825
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 4: was written by Carl Sagan, who knew the business.

826
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:37,359
Speaker 1: I really liked The.

827
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 4: Arrival because of the concept that if you're going to

828
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 4: write in circles, you need to know the future. I

829
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 4: thought that was an intriguing concept. And of course everybody

830
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 4: is now remembering Rendezvous with Rama given the passage of

831
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 4: the Muamua through our solar system. There's another part that

832
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 4: I love. It's called Dora and Summer. And the hero

833
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 4: in the book lived in this drafty old cottage and

834
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,960
Speaker 4: it rained a lot, and he had a cat named Petronius.

835
00:51:11,000 --> 00:51:15,320
Speaker 4: And the cat kept going to door after door after door,

836
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 4: figuring that one of those doors is going to open

837
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:19,879
Speaker 4: onto sunshine rather than rain.

838
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,040
Speaker 1: So I have a cat named Petrini's wonderful. Well, thanks

839
00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:25,839
Speaker 1: very much for taking some time to talk to us

840
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: about how humanity is searching for extraterrestrial intelligence, what we

841
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: can do, and what we are doing in the future.

842
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: I hope that the project does continue for another ten

843
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,399
Speaker 1: thousand years and that we managed to put ourselves out

844
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 1: there and speak to the cosmos and let them know

845
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: that we're here.

846
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 4: Well, Daniel, thank you for this opportunity to talk to people,

847
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 4: because I think it's really important. I mean, SETI is

848
00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:51,760
Speaker 4: sometimes seen as unimportant and fringe and not having any

849
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 4: real tangible value, but I disagree with that. I think

850
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 4: that if we get to talk to people and have

851
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 4: them think about life evolving somewhere else, it's like holding

852
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 4: up a mirror to the planet Earth and saying, hey, you,

853
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 4: all of you, you are all the same when compared

854
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,760
Speaker 4: to something else that might have evolved on a planet

855
00:52:18,840 --> 00:52:23,240
Speaker 4: around another star. And it's important to get that concept

856
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 4: across because we face so many challenges on this planet

857
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 4: in our future, and those challenges are going to require

858
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 4: global cooperation to find solutions. So the more that we

859
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 4: can make people think of themselves as Earthlings rather than

860
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 4: Americans or Chinese or some other thing. We're all the

861
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 4: same on this planet and we all have to work together.

862
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 4: So I really think SETI has a very practical application.

863
00:52:57,680 --> 00:53:00,320
Speaker 1: Right now, Well, here's one earth thing who totally agrees

864
00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: with you, So thanks very much for devoting your life

865
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: and your career to this vitally important project. All right,

866
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:06,440
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