1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. British documentary filmmaker Lucy Walker 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,240 Speaker 1: has been compared to legendary director and Here's the Thing 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: guest Errol Morris. She's made five feature films and been 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,639 Speaker 1: nominated for an Academy Award twice, first for Waste Land, 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: about an artist who works with materials found in landfills 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: in Brazil, and the second time for a short doc 8 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,880 Speaker 1: called The Tsunami and the Cherry Blossom, about the two 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: thousand eleven Japanese earthquake and nuclear disaster. Her critically acclaimed 10 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen film The Crash Wheel followed snowboarder Kevin 11 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: Pierce after he suffered a traumatic brain injury while training 12 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: for the Winter Olympics. Lucy Walker's latest film is Bring 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,400 Speaker 1: your Own Brigade, a reference to wealthy residents who hire 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: their own but firefighters to protect property during forest fires. 15 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: The film focuses on two two thousand eighteen California wildfires, 16 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: the camp Fire, which nearly destroyed the town of Paradise 17 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: and killed people, and the Woolsey Fire, which erupted on 18 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: the same day, and destroyed large parts of Malibu. Bring 19 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: your Own Brigade attempts to answer an urgent question, why 20 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: are there more catastrophic wildfires, not just in California but 21 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:34,160 Speaker 1: around the world, and what can we do to mitigate 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 1: their destruction. Walker's film says these fires can be blamed 23 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: on more than just climate change. When she started her reporting, 24 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 1: she followed several firefighters and learned a great deal about 25 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 1: their work, including how these fires get named. You know, 26 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 1: when a fire breaks out, the operating commands just pick 27 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: a name quite quickly, and it's not a great deal 28 00:01:57,720 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: of thought that goes into it. They just instantly need 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: names for incidents, especially because with California often with the 30 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: wind events driving multiple incidents all at once. You just 31 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: need to know that the Dixie fire isn't the Wolsey fire, 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,480 Speaker 1: isn't the campfire. And they'll often name them for the 33 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 1: road that they break out on or a facility nearby. 34 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: For example, Camp the Campfire came from Camp Creek Road, 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: which was where the fire was first spotted. So it's 36 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: kind of a loose improvisation that they come up with 37 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: these names. And then, in the case of the campfire, 38 00:02:30,520 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 1: which became later on the most deadly in history. It 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: was obviously achieved a great sort of notoriety that name, 40 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: but that their their coin very quickly. You first became 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: aware of this story when were you living in southern California. Then, Yeah, 42 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,799 Speaker 1: I'm originally from England. And the Great Fire of London, 43 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,519 Speaker 1: which actually followed the plague and kind of put out 44 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: the plague, so to speak, because it killed all the rats, 45 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:58,399 Speaker 1: was in sixteen sixty six, and you think of fire 46 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: as a medieval problem in London. And then I moved 47 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 1: to New York house in film school and grad school 48 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 1: in New York, and again you think of urban fires, 49 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:07,639 Speaker 1: but you think of it as a problem that we've 50 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: come together to solve. And then I moved to California, 51 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 1: and I was confused because the hillside was on fire 52 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: and people were driving down the freeway as if this 53 00:03:18,480 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: was just business as usual, and I was scared. I 54 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: just knew there was a thread that if you tugged 55 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 1: on it, there was a cognitive dissonance. I didn't know 56 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: what was wrong, but I knew that I had a 57 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: feeling that fire shouldn't be burning and there must be 58 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: a problem because houses were burning and people were dying, 59 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 1: and this fire problem, actually since I moved here in 60 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: the two thousands, kept getting worse and worse and worse. 61 00:03:50,320 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: The fires seemed to be getting bigger and I wasn't 62 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: imagining it. And finally there was the biggest fire ever 63 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: in California at the time, that Thomas Fire, and I 64 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: had some friends that were caught up in it, both 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 1: on the resident side and the firefighter side. I have. 66 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: That was all around Santa Barbara, Oh, High Ventura, sort 67 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: of just north of Los Angeles. It began in December 68 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, so very late, at the time when the 69 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: rains would normally have come. And you start to learn 70 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: about the climate in southern California and that the real 71 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 1: danger zone in southern California is when the winds kick up, 72 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: the seasonal winds kick up, but the rains have not 73 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: yet arrived. And what's been happening increasingly with climate change 74 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: is that the winds are arriving, but the fuels are 75 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: still dry, and there's only a few rain events in 76 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: southern California. I think on average about five times you 77 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: get these big rains, but it will only rain about 78 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: a few times a year. And obviously there's normally a 79 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: variability in that because statistically it's there's always going to 80 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: be a variance. It's not always five a year, it's 81 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: never been that. It's has been on average that. But 82 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: with climate change mixing things up more and more and 83 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: the ongoing drought that we've had, there's less and less rain, 84 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: and the winds are actually more because the temperature gradients 85 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,839 Speaker 1: actually tend to push up and make stronger wind events 86 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 1: that are really drive these really out of control. Big 87 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,559 Speaker 1: fires always have a huge wind event at their back. 88 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: They don't just happen on an ordinary day. They'll happen 89 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: when the wind conditions are at their worst. And so 90 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: you start to learn that the full season in southern 91 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: California is the worst. It's a little different in other 92 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: states where you get far as earlier in the season. 93 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: You'll get winds earlier in Arizona and northern California, in 94 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,599 Speaker 1: Oregon and Washington, the western United States, it's not necessarily 95 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: quite so late in southern California, where the rains come 96 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: really quite late. That's how the season moves. My brother 97 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: lives in Santa Barbara, and he has moved and kind 98 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: of hopped between Monte Cedar, when Santa Barbara itself and 99 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: the in that area. He's been there for many, many years. 100 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,320 Speaker 1: The mud slides were the next act after that. That's 101 00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 1: exactly right, the mudslides that came pouring through and crushed 102 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: many homes and killed a couple, killed twenty two rain 103 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: mud slide exactly, and I had friends in Montecito, and 104 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: that was exactly what made me get up and stopped 105 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: being a spectator and start to say, where is the 106 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,080 Speaker 1: documentary film about this? Because for me, documentary films are 107 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 1: the best, single, best way I have as a viewer 108 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: to understand a complex issue. When I see a great 109 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: documentary made by one of my colleagues, I really feel 110 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:41,480 Speaker 1: like I know the story inside out. If the reporting 111 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: is good, if the story and the characters really get 112 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: me in there, I feel like I get my arms 113 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: around the issue. I really understand in three sixty what's 114 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,760 Speaker 1: really going on. And there are so many complicated issues 115 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: that I've really understood for the first time because of 116 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: a great documentary film, and there wasn't one about fires, 117 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: And finally I thought, my gosh, if there isn't one, 118 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: I'm going to have to do it. Because when that 119 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 1: mud slide. The debrief flow happened. It was the end 120 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 1: of that same fire I was talking about, and started 121 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: in December seventeen and then January. This like just greight train, 122 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: but you know, you can't even describe that, Like the 123 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: hillside came with boulders embedded inside. Exactly, there were boulders 124 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,920 Speaker 1: inside the mass. That was horrifying, Yes, exactly. Sort of 125 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: this gigantic, epic, tragic sliding down of the beautiful mountain 126 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: side because after the fire, the all the roots had 127 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: been um the trees have been burned, and you get 128 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: all this slickness, and when the rain comes down, you're 129 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: a great risk of the mud slides because there's nothing 130 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: to stick the earth the side of the mountain, and 131 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: it all comes down and kind of cannonballs and snowballs 132 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: and and builds up such momentum that houses, you know, 133 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: were actually lost into the ocean and never found. I mean, 134 00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: just such momentum. And over twenty people were killed in 135 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 1: the most horrifying way. I mean, I've been in many 136 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: traumatic disaster zones and I've never been quite so shocked 137 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: and stunned as what I saw in Montecito. And I'm 138 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: so sorry your brother was affected because that whole community 139 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: was just so kids at the school, yeah, devastating, and 140 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: I thought, my goodness, what is going on? And I 141 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 1: had friends who are both firefighters and residents, and I thought, 142 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 1: somebody has to tell this story. Somebody has to I 143 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: couldn't understand that even as close as Los Angeles and 144 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 1: with all the filmmakers in California, that no one was 145 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:40,920 Speaker 1: really describing the awful, intense tragedy that these people were 146 00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: going through. And I thought, Okay, well, I'll step up. 147 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: I want to understand what is happening with these fires 148 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: and then the debris flows that can sometimes be they're 149 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: kind of kicking the tail, and let's really get to 150 00:08:53,240 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: the bottom of this and understand what the residents and 151 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: the responders are going through because it's getting worse and 152 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: I don't like it, and are we safe here? And 153 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 1: let's find out is there anything that we can do 154 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 1: about it? And my initial assumption had been that it 155 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: was all climate change, because it really made sense, right, 156 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: we have the worst fires ever and we have the 157 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 1: hottest summers ever, and the climate change that I follow, 158 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: the science on these trends really point to that, and 159 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: initially I thought that was the only thing driving these fires, 160 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,439 Speaker 1: and so I thought that the cause wasn't going to 161 00:09:31,520 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 1: be too hard to pin down. But actually, while climate 162 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: change is happening and climate change is exacerbating the problem, 163 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:44,800 Speaker 1: for sure, there are other factors. And that's actually great 164 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,760 Speaker 1: because there are some things that we could do now. 165 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 1: Whether or not we do do them is something that 166 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: you've touched on. And the film really blew my mind 167 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 1: as I was making it, understanding how things actually happen. 168 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: Even when you can fix things, it's not true that 169 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: they do get fixed. And so I sort of went 170 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: on a whole journey filmmaker Lucy Walker. If you enjoy 171 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: conversations about the challenges of making documentary films, check out 172 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: my episode with the directors of Making a Murderer. The 173 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: controversial series explored the case of Stephen Avery, Wisconsin, man 174 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: who was wrongly convicted of rape, released after two decades 175 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: in prison, and then convicted of murder. The series was 176 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: written and directed by Laura Richardi and Moira Dimas. It 177 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: just seemed like, you know, he was this incredible window 178 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: through which to look at our system. You know, if 179 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: we followed this man's story, we would go from one 180 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: extreme of the system to the other. So as I 181 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: was saying, you know, we had no money, but what 182 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,120 Speaker 1: we what we could put into it with time, which 183 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: is actually an incredibly valuable asset. And after doing a 184 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: preliminary week of shooting in December, realized this was something 185 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: we wanted to pursue, and we sublet our apartment in 186 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: New York. We've got an apartment in Mantuak and we 187 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: lived there, you know, more on than off, for close 188 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: to two years. To hear more of my conversation with 189 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: the filmmakers behind Making a Murderer, go to Here's the 190 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: Thing dot org. After the break, Lucy Walker explains why 191 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: some California residents resist taking even basic steps to prevent 192 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: forest fires. I'm Alec Baldwin, and you were listening to 193 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Lucy Walker is originally from the UK. 194 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: She moved to Los Angeles and two thousand eight and 195 00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: quickly began exploring what was causing the huge fires around California. 196 00:11:56,080 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: I've been observing these fires and wondering and and been frightened. 197 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: But that fire, the largest ever far in California, the 198 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: Thomas Fire, with the terrible debris law in Montecito in 199 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: I thought, oh my goodness, I'm going to have to 200 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 1: make a film about this, and I began to make 201 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: the film. Then the film actually features fires that happened 202 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: later in Malibu and Paradise. But I've already been working 203 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: on the film for a year at that point when 204 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:27,599 Speaker 1: those fires came along. Now, you were, I don't know 205 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: if this is the word, monitoring the fire situation in 206 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: southern California. So when Paradise happens, when Malibu happens, you're 207 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: you're already there monitoring those that kind of activity. Curry exactly. 208 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: And I've already been filming a great deal and already 209 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: made friends with these incredible firefighters, actually the incredible firefighters 210 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: in the Montecito Fire Department, and been embedded with them 211 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:57,319 Speaker 1: on various fires and cools and knew just who to 212 00:12:57,440 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: cool up. And when the as far as broke out 213 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: in Malibu and Paradise, actually I saw it on Twitter 214 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: early that morning, and I instantly was able to cool 215 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: out the firefighter zone that I knew actually in Montecito 216 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: and hopping with them as they were being deployed down 217 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: to the fire in Malibu, and we knew the fire command, 218 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: and we were able to really film within those incidents 219 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,959 Speaker 1: immediately and know what we're looking at and know how 220 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,679 Speaker 1: to film it because we've been doing a lot of 221 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: preparation and filming by that stage. The film obviously has 222 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: some ghastly optics there. You you lay audio tracks of 223 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 1: people calling, or there's some kind of recorded voice you 224 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: have of someone screaming this blood curdling scream as they're 225 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: being engulfed in. The visual might not be you know, 226 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 1: their visual, but you lay that track against a car 227 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: proceeding down the tunnel of flames. Everyone's trying to leave. 228 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: I want to make sure our listeners understand that up 229 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: in Paradise the campfire, everyone tries to leave at the 230 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: same time. Yeah, I mean something that we get into 231 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: because we start with the fires, and you're so right. 232 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 1: It's the most horrifying and hellish scenes and people were 233 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: killed in Paradise and the most hellish, terrifying way imaginable, 234 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: And we were able to gather so much material, including 235 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: the nine and one calls and the radio traffic, so 236 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: that you really get a sense of what that's like. 237 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: We meet a girl who couldn't persuade her mom to 238 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: evacuate because she hadn't had an evacuation warning and she 239 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: has to leave because she's so scared, and unfortunately her 240 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: mom did succumb to the fire. And all these terrifying 241 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: stories of a woman who just had had a C 242 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: section and she is in the car but she can't 243 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: somebody's giving her right out to escape, but she can't 244 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: feel her legs. She's just had an eperdural, and she 245 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: has this newborn baby who's just been born by hours 246 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: earlier by c section, and she has to say to 247 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: the driver of the car, who she's never met, if 248 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 1: it comes to it, just take my baby and run, 249 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: because I can't move and I'm going to die, but 250 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: I want my baby to have a chance to take 251 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: the baby and run. I mean, these scenes, you can't 252 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: imagine how traumatic they are. And then we sort of 253 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: don't stop there. Though it wasn't enough to me to 254 00:15:24,040 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: just show the horror. I wanted to understand what happens next? 255 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: How do we stop this happening again? Because I learned 256 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: that these communities burned over and over again, actually this 257 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: summer already with the Dixie Fire. That fire began right 258 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: where the campfire began, as well and burned right up 259 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: into the same community of having, causing our characters to 260 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: all be evacuated again. There was another far last year 261 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: that killed another twenty two people that was right next door. 262 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: And so what I wanted to understand is, well, how 263 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: are we stopping it or why are we having this problem? 264 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: And why are people living in these areas and building 265 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: these houses that burn over and over and over again. 266 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: Could we do better? And you start to understand it's 267 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,960 Speaker 1: not sensible. When you figure out what should be happening 268 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: and you figure out what's actually happening, it's not the 269 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: same thing. So you would think that when people look 270 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: at developing an area for housing, they would think about 271 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: is fire safety and the cost to the homeowner and 272 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: also to the state a nation of these risks that 273 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: people are having. But in fact, there's an incentive locally 274 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: to approve all the building because a town wants more 275 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: residents because then they're going to have more tax revenue. 276 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: But nobody's actually thinking about what are they going to 277 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: be able to ensure these homes and who's going to 278 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: pay if these homes burned down. There's all these kind 279 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: of mismatched incentives and what's actually happening now to poor 280 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: homeowners is in the in the in these areas unexpectedly 281 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 1: now the insurance companies are cutting them off, and California 282 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: actually putting moratorium on insurance companies dropping their customers because 283 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: it was so sudden and so dire. But in future, 284 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: the truth with climate change and with this problem which 285 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: is not just caused by climate change but is escalating, 286 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: is if these homes are uninsurable, what's going to happen 287 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,280 Speaker 1: to the residents if they burned down and a lot 288 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: of them are not going to be able to ensure 289 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: afford that, and there's going to be a huger burden, 290 00:17:20,920 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: and and we're seeing these problems sort of pile up. 291 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: It's the inability to get together and solve these complicated problems. 292 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: It really is just like it is with climate change, 293 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: that we have a complex problem on our hands, and 294 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,800 Speaker 1: so we all need to really get together and have 295 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:40,600 Speaker 1: sensible discussions about what we can all do to solve this. 296 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: It's not easy, but you really capture in the film 297 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:51,440 Speaker 1: exactly where the problems are happening, exactly which conversations are 298 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: not happening, exactly where officials can't get voted out by 299 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: doing anything unpopular, and the town don't want to be 300 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: told what to do. So you see this town where 301 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: people were killed and eighteen thousand buildings were burned down. 302 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 1: Less than a year later, eighteen eighteen thousand structures lost, 303 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: not all of them homes. Some of them were buildings 304 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: that weren't homes, businesses, or or other structures, but eighteen 305 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: thousand structures lost. It was the most expensive disaster of 306 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 1: that year in the world. Less than a year later, 307 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: the town doesn't just vote against these measures, they eviscerate 308 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: their seven town council members for daring to suggest these measures, 309 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: many of which have no cost. A few of them, 310 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: like sprinklers, do have a cost associated but some like 311 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 1: actually changing the way that that you can have gutters, 312 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: so changing the rules around gutters that's free, and people 313 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: like their gutters. People don't want to be told what 314 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: to do about gutters. Even though the fire chief and 315 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:01,200 Speaker 1: all the people that know how fire works begging them 316 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: to reconsider this, still this feeling that like, we don't 317 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: want to be told what to do. This is a 318 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: town where we do our own thing, and not being 319 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: able to have that complicated discussion with people about well, 320 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 1: that's great, but the unfortunate reality is that when your 321 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: home catches fire because you have this gutter with the 322 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: leaves stuck up there, you're also gonna catch fire to 323 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 1: your neighbor's homes, and then all the roads are going 324 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: to clog up, and it's a domino escalating problem. It's 325 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: similar to get the vaccination, not just for yourself but 326 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,280 Speaker 1: for everybody else, exactly right, And you actually learn that 327 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 1: it's actually a really good analogy because that idea of 328 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: social distancing is exactly like there's a concept in fire 329 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: safety where you have this five ft defensible space they 330 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: call it, so you don't have anything flammable within five 331 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: ft of your house, and that's sort of like social distancing. 332 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: Then the aerosol dispersion is like the embers when you 333 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: have the virus that little particles that will come out 334 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: and infect people. That's actually the same as the embers. 335 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 1: That actually how far start is these ember storms get 336 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: carried by the wind and actually will catch So it's 337 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: a really eerily perfect analogy with the pandemic. So that 338 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: really got me thinking. Of course, another interesting thing about 339 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: the film is that in looking at these two fires 340 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: that were kicked off by the same wind event in Paradise. 341 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,640 Speaker 1: They called it a red hill in a blue state. 342 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 1: So even though California is mostly Democratic state, this area 343 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: of Paradise in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada is 344 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: a much more moderate or even conservative area, lots of guns, 345 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: lots of Republicans, and much more rural sort of mindset. 346 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:51,120 Speaker 1: And Malibu it's a much more democratic place and much 347 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: more well to do as well. So the socioeconomic disparity 348 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: was astonishing than Malibu. The average home price was over 349 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: ten times more than the average home price in Paradise 350 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: that burned. So it's really interesting, So describe what happened 351 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: in Malibu. The fire was aware, the fire was everywhere. 352 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 1: It was a huge fire. And you're right, Malibu is 353 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 1: such a gorgeous, gorgeous place just outside of Los Angeles 354 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,320 Speaker 1: and just spectacular, spectacular countryside, spectacular scenery over the ocean. 355 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: But with those hills and canyons that give you these 356 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: spectacular views, you have a lot of vegetation and you 357 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,679 Speaker 1: have a lot of wind, and when those winds just 358 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: line up just right, you get these terrible fires. And 359 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 1: on that day it was a monster and it was 360 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 1: in so many canyons and it was all going off 361 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: at once in this gigantic incident. It did. It burned 362 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: right into Point Doom, and everyone said, oh, the Point 363 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 1: never burns, and it did. And I'm sure you you too. 364 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: You know, I have friends that lost their homes there 365 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: and was able to film with them as they went 366 00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: through that, and we were able to film with the 367 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: fire depart as they're driving around trying to fight this fire. 368 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: But it's huge, and the public didn't quite get it. 369 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,480 Speaker 1: The public didn't quite understand that it wasn't sort of 370 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: the firefighter's fault for doing a bad job, whereas, in fact, 371 00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: as fire was so humongous, and every firefighter was out 372 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: working without sleep for days on end, and yet you 373 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 1: just can't fight afar that big. And what was extraordinary 374 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: given the scale was that not more people died. At 375 00:22:29,880 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: least three people did die, and I forget how many 376 00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: thousands of structures, but thousands and thousands and thousands of 377 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: incredible homes were lost, and it was devastating, and most 378 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: of those were not not in the Point, but up 379 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,640 Speaker 1: in the hills on the other on the land side 380 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: of the highway. Yeah, exactly, like that exactly exactly, loads 381 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: of those canyons up there. You can just drive up there, 382 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: and it looked like, you know, instead of the normal vegetation, 383 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:01,439 Speaker 1: it looked like a kind of like a kind of 384 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 1: singed pig hide or something. I can't describe this landscape, 385 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: but just looked everything was just burned and black, and 386 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 1: the houses, the footprints of the houses looked like ashtrays. 387 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: You can see that imprint of where the house would be, yes, 388 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 1: a different different colored material exactly. And then once in 389 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,640 Speaker 1: a while just a strange building that you know, strangely 390 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't have burned, or actually not so strangely, because some 391 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: of those buildings were actually designed not to burn, and 392 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: we did have the proper defensible space and there are 393 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:34,440 Speaker 1: ways I learned that you could protect them. But it 394 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: was very surreal because you'd see some of the structures 395 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:40,000 Speaker 1: did survive, but some areas that were whole canyons or 396 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: whole streets where all the structures were burned, and it 397 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:47,639 Speaker 1: was absolutely devastating. And also, you have, it gave rise 398 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: to a lot of conspiracy theories, as with the pandemic. 399 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: You know, people would say to me and perfectly sensible 400 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: looking people that would start out, you know, seeming very smart. 401 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: We'd be having this conversation and certainly they'd start talking 402 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,399 Speaker 1: about how it must be laser pointers because it was 403 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: so hard to account for the fact that some structures 404 00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:08,880 Speaker 1: had survived. But I learned about this, and I learned 405 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: that actually there are ways you can build homes that 406 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: mean that they do survive when the fire burns through, 407 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,160 Speaker 1: as they burn through really often. Because I learned with Malibu, 408 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 1: these fires happened all the time, has happened over and 409 00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: over again. I found all these films, and we show 410 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:25,919 Speaker 1: in the movie, this extraordinary film about the bell Air 411 00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: fire in the sixties, and there's this wonderful presenter, you know, 412 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: in three saying, I wonder if this was a one 413 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: in a million chance, or could this ever happen again? 414 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 1: And it's happened dozens of times since he asked that question. 415 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 1: These fires come through all the time. There was another 416 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,480 Speaker 1: fire in Sonoma, in the beautiful wine country in northern California, 417 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: the Tubs fire, and that killed it over twenty people. 418 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: And remember driving on the four oh five through the 419 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: suppul oft to pass or actually my friend was and 420 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 1: he filmed like out of an epic film, you know, 421 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 1: like a Cecil B. Demill film the flames just because, 422 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: as you know, all those grasses when they draw out 423 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: ore a golden color to like a golden wheat color, 424 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: and you'd see, like you said, like a singed pigs high. 425 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: That was a funny reference. And then in the middle 426 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: of that of the burned yellow fields is the debris 427 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: from the house that burned down. And you'd see in 428 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 1: your film those box shaped the building envelope where the 429 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: house burned down. And he sent me the film of 430 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: the flames just roaring over the Supulvitan Pass near the 431 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: Getty Center, you know, and the flame just roaring as 432 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,919 Speaker 1: people just drove through like it was another day in 433 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: l A. I want to ask you though, regarding the 434 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 1: campfire people in Paradise, and you said that after the 435 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 1: campfire they had other fires that were similar and came 436 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: right up to their door or whatever. Did they raise 437 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: their taxes to some kind of greater fire protection system 438 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,679 Speaker 1: in place? No, because half the tax base was gone. 439 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: When I was filming, I was filming one incredible guy 440 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 1: who had an incredible blind mom, and they he was 441 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,439 Speaker 1: the one person that managed to stay and defend his 442 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: home and successfully and live and I got to know him, 443 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: but he was one of seven people who were still 444 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: collecting their mail. And so you can understand that the 445 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: fire department, who I made friends with and fall in 446 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: love with, all these incredible firefighters in Paradise, half of 447 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,040 Speaker 1: them were laid off after the fire because there was 448 00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: no more tax dollars to pay for them and not 449 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: many people living in the town. And so you had 450 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: these poor, depressed firefighters with not much work to do 451 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: and having had half their colleagues lose their jobs. The 452 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: month after the campfire was absolutely brutal, but no, I mean, 453 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 1: FEMA stepped in with great resources for people. And it 454 00:26:57,560 --> 00:26:59,600 Speaker 1: was ironic to me because a lot of the people 455 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 1: in Paradise will tell me that they hate big government. 456 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,159 Speaker 1: They don't know where their taxes go. But they're the 457 00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 1: people who were able to buy, you know, trailers, or 458 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: get money from the female, which is the government, which 459 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 1: is what go our tax dollars go on right precisely 460 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: because there was female to pick up the pieces and 461 00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: support people and buy a lot of people trailers and 462 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:24,399 Speaker 1: or get people into new homes. And then you have 463 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,199 Speaker 1: the economics, which is strange, but the home prices go 464 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: way up because you have a lot of people looking 465 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: for homes. And that's the sort of bizarre cycle that 466 00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: we're in. A in a high fire zone like Paradise 467 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: or Malibu, that home cost goes up and up and up, 468 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: and same thing Montecito. And these home prices go up 469 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 1: and up, not because you have so many people desperate 470 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: for homes. They want to keep the kids in the school, 471 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 1: they want to stay in these beautiful communities, but there's 472 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: less housing and and so you see the cycle. And 473 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: in an immediate aftermath of a fire, there's actually less 474 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,160 Speaker 1: risk of fire because you've kind of burned off all 475 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 1: that fuel. And so I think you get lulled into 476 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: a full sense of security because immediately there's no risk 477 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: of fire. You just want the continuity. You want to 478 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: move back. You want to have your life, you know, 479 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: back as quickly as possible. Naturally and understandably, people just 480 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 1: want to get back home. They want to rebuild or 481 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: have a new home or there's you know, get back 482 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:22,120 Speaker 1: on track as quickly as possible. And then as the 483 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: years tit by and the fuel piles up, when the 484 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: risk of fire comes back, people kind of get a 485 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: little complacable that hasn't been a fire for a while, 486 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: so it'll probably be okay, But actually the risk is 487 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 1: building and as soon as the wind and the weather 488 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: lines up again, that fuel and the wind is just 489 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,959 Speaker 1: going to be a recipe for disaster again. And so 490 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 1: you can kind of see how this problem keeps compounding 491 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: until we do something differently. What did you find that 492 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: in the way that the film shows that stubborn, entitled, 493 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: privileged Americans, independence Americans who just don't want to be 494 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: told what to do. Let me come of that decision 495 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: in my own way and in my own timing. I 496 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: have a complicated relationship with this question. It's a great question. 497 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: I'm from the UK, originally in Europe, and there is 498 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: more of a sense of the society coming together, and 499 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: we have a national health service. That's a really wonderful 500 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: gift that you always have free healthcare, and it's a 501 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: feeling that the state has your back and will protect you. 502 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,959 Speaker 1: And yet I immigrated to the US, I have an 503 00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: American passport. I personally you made that voyage myself because 504 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: it is exciting to stride out on your own and 505 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: try your luck and go west. Young woman right, And 506 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: I personally really relate to this desire for independence and individuality. 507 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: And and that's me. I'm a filmmaker and a creative 508 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,280 Speaker 1: asked this person and a woman who wants to, you know, 509 00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: use the voice and make the world a better place. 510 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: Personal I left my family behind, and I think about 511 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: these wonderful American immigrants whose footsteps I'm in, and the 512 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: people in these areas are often descended from gold miners, 513 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,840 Speaker 1: and is the gold Rush and California was these rushes 514 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: of even today we have the Silicon Valley kind of rush, 515 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 1: but we've had aerospace, we've got wine, we've had a 516 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: punk rock, we've got the movies. I mean, the people 517 00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: that recent people come to California are often to you know, 518 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: stride out on their own right. And and we have 519 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: that kind of community almost in our genes. And it's 520 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 1: exciting and it's entrepreneurial and it's driving the world's exciting economy. Right. 521 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: And at the same time, we have this challenge, which 522 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 1: is if we don't come together, we can't solve these 523 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: big problems. And we're literally burning alive, like literally when 524 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,080 Speaker 1: the Christian imagination will be come up with the idea 525 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: of hell. It's burning fire pits, and this is actually 526 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: what we're creating for ourselves. Those scenes you see in 527 00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 1: Paradise in Malibu with people try and escape through the 528 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: flames or even succumbing as eighty five people didn't paradise, 529 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: this is actually sort of our worst thing that we 530 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: can imagine. It's literally hell, and that's what we're doing. 531 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: And so how can we come together with the pandemic 532 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: with climate change? Because there are things that we can do, 533 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: but it does require us having difficult conversations with people 534 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: that might be in crisis, that may have just had 535 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: their homes burned down. But rather than just saying, sure, 536 00:31:32,320 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: build the same flammable home right there without having to 537 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: be told that you can't have your rose bush within 538 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: five ft of the front door, maybe we really need 539 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: to have these difficult conversations. Maybe we really need to 540 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: have difficult conversations about vaccination and the responsibility we have 541 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: to our other people as well as to ourselves, and 542 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,760 Speaker 1: how we need to lean into the system of knowledge 543 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: called science, whether it's fire science or virology, to understand 544 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: the world, because it is the best system of knowledge 545 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: that we have, and if we ignore it, we ignore 546 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 1: it our at our peril and that we are dying 547 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: and suffering more. And as the world becomes terrifyingly more 548 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: challenging with climate change, are we going to put our 549 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 1: best minds on trying to mitigate these effects? Several firefighters, 550 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: I believe it was in either Paradise or or maybe 551 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: it was in Santa Barbara, they committed suicide. Cric they 552 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: had a suicide epidemic there. Yeah, you know, firefighters everywhere, 553 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: first responders everywhere, suffering from post traumatic stress. And really 554 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:40,960 Speaker 1: the suicides, the suffering, the divorces, the depression, I mean, 555 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: lives are being really affected and the first responses are 556 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,280 Speaker 1: at the sharp end of this. We're asking them to 557 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,960 Speaker 1: do so so much, and the toll it takes is 558 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: actually too much for the human psyche to bear. And 559 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: I think we're just starting to learn about the toll 560 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: that it's taking. And I think the firefighters are really 561 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: trying to get better at supporting firefighters mental health. But 562 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 1: we are really learning. And it was so moving to 563 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,200 Speaker 1: see fire she's breaking down in tears about the colleagues 564 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: that they've lost and couldn't save and to hear our 565 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: wonderful firefighters. We're following want to see to talk about 566 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,719 Speaker 1: the toll on it's taken on her family and her life. 567 00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: It was just it's just heartbreaking, you know, and it's 568 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: it's not okay. I wanted people to understand that what's 569 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 1: going on is not okay. People are suffering. We can't 570 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: just keep doing this without really hurting people. We can 571 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: do a better job taking better care of our residents 572 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: and our responders. Filmmaker Lucy Walker. If you're enjoying this conversation, 573 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: tell a friend and be sure to follow Here's the 574 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: Thing on the I Heart app, Spotify or wherever you 575 00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. When we come back, Lucy talks about 576 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 1: her transition from loving theater to making documentary films. I'm 577 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. Lucy 578 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: Walker went to Oxford and graduated with top honors in literature. 579 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: She got involved with theater at school, but soon became 580 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 1: curious about making movies. I was very lucky in the 581 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:33,120 Speaker 1: UK again, this wonderful. I grew up in the UK. 582 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 1: It had a fantastic free systems, had a fantastic education, 583 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: and then I was very lucky because I want a 584 00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: fulbright scholarship to go to n y U for graduate 585 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: film school, which was a real golden ticket for me 586 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: to come to New York City and study with incredible 587 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 1: teachers all around the world, including some Russian teachers that 588 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: at all in the collapse of communism. Come and we're 589 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:58,799 Speaker 1: in New York teaching you were just geniuses and monin 590 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: school Sasi in Spightly in all these incredible alumni and 591 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: female filmmakers there were just you know, women directors, which 592 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,399 Speaker 1: I was. When I was growing up in the UK, 593 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: there hadn't been any role models for me as a 594 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,520 Speaker 1: female director. So it's really really exciting to come to 595 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,719 Speaker 1: New York and and being affected with that kind of 596 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: independent filmmaking spirit. And at the time actually documentaries weren't 597 00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:22,280 Speaker 1: very big, but then in the nineties there were these 598 00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: new exciting digital cameras came out and suddenly you could 599 00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 1: afford to get your hands on a camera and even 600 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 1: without a script, to start shooting stuff. And then of 601 00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: course Avid's and these nonlinear editing systems came out, and 602 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: that for documentary was huge transformation because before, as you know, 603 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: you need a script and you need actors to tell 604 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,800 Speaker 1: a story because real life is kind of difficult to 605 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: make interesting. But when you had your cheaper, fantastic cameras 606 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 1: that you could still blow up the video to see 607 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: on a big screen, and it still started to look good. 608 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: By two thousand, we were having sort of digital video 609 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: that look decent, and we're also having these editing systems 610 00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:04,600 Speaker 1: that meant that you could actually really edit, fine tune 611 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: with a whole bunch of stuff. You could take a 612 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: big haystack and make a really finely crafted story out 613 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: of it without losing your mind. Because before you had, 614 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: like when you were cutting on film that was so 615 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: laborious to edit before, and suddenly it was just computer 616 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: editing and you could click a button and compare different 617 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 1: versions or make music videos and all this just amazingly fun, beautiful, 618 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: dynamic stuff. And so that was this moment suddenly where 619 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,440 Speaker 1: documentaries became really exciting, and I thought you could actually 620 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 1: make real life into a really exciting, watchable story documentary 621 00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: because actually I was loved working with actors and wanted 622 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: to do scripted stuff. What's what's stopping you? Oh, it's 623 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: been tough. No, I'm always trying to make fiction films, 624 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: and honestly, it's tough for any director, and maybe even 625 00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: tougher as a female. I'm not sure, but now I 626 00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: grew up in England actually directing theater. That was my 627 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,839 Speaker 1: big love, and at Oxford I was every term I 628 00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 1: directed different play and there was so much young talent 629 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,839 Speaker 1: at Oxford University and I realized at a young age 630 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,719 Speaker 1: that I was not a very good actor. But if 631 00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: you did this thing called directing, you've got to be 632 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: around the actors and around the plays and to put 633 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: on a fantastic show and for the actress to have 634 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: all that they needed to do their incredible performances. But 635 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: I didn't have to get on the stage myself. So 636 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,279 Speaker 1: that's how I became a director. And then I realized, oh, 637 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:27,320 Speaker 1: but wait, but film is even cooler because then you 638 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 1: can do the cool shots and you can do close ups. 639 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,240 Speaker 1: And I loved actually watching movies more than I loved 640 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: watching theater. And I thought, okay, well, I could I 641 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: even be a director of movies. And that's when I 642 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,919 Speaker 1: applied to n YU and was lucky enough to get 643 00:37:40,960 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: in and learn how to direct movies. But it was 644 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: only later on that I thought, oh, these documentaries are 645 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 1: pretty cool because now I can make movies out of 646 00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:55,440 Speaker 1: real people's lives. And so that's been really really incredible 647 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: privilege of a career. And I've loved exploring the world 648 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,000 Speaker 1: and meeting so many people and telling, you know, the 649 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,680 Speaker 1: stories of the courage and heroism of everyday people. And 650 00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,280 Speaker 1: I've loved this, but I have to confess it is tough. 651 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,280 Speaker 1: Give me actors and a script, and that is the 652 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: fun way to tell a story. You've been recognized multiple 653 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: times for these films. You were shortlisted for five Oscars, 654 00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: of which you were nominated for two. Waste Land was 655 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 1: that about the favelas? And that's exactly right. Yeah, it's 656 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: setting the favela in the largest garbage dump in the world, 657 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: an incredible artist as an incredible project with the people 658 00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: that live in the favela in Rio, That's right. And 659 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: then the tsunami and the cherry blossom, And are we 660 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 1: talking about the tsunami that was the Fukushima event exactly, 661 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: the one in Japan. Exactly, that's right. And were you 662 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,920 Speaker 1: able to get anywhere near Fukushima? I would imagine no, 663 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:55,919 Speaker 1: I was close as you'd want to be, that's right, 664 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: with a Geiga counter making sure I wasn't too close 665 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: for too long and getting too radioactive. But yeah, no, 666 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,400 Speaker 1: it was that was fascinating. That was I was actually 667 00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 1: originally supposed to be making a little film about cherry blossom, 668 00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,800 Speaker 1: which I love, and this beautiful In Japan, they're obsessed 669 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: with the cherry blossom and this is beautiful season. When 670 00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: the cherry bossom comes out, they celebrate spring and they 671 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: sit under the trees and and sort of party with 672 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 1: the cherry blossom and write poetry. And this was always 673 00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,920 Speaker 1: a sort of dream I I had, And so I 674 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: was all set to go and make a little film 675 00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 1: when the terrible tsunami earthquake disaster happened, and I thought 676 00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: about running away and not making the film, and I thought, gosh, well, 677 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:41,800 Speaker 1: if the cherry blossom season is going to mean anything, 678 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,919 Speaker 1: it's going to mean the most this year when people 679 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,560 Speaker 1: are really suffering. And so I sort of was the 680 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 1: only person flying into Japan that day along with my cinematographer, 681 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,400 Speaker 1: and we made this film with the Japanese survivors of 682 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 1: the earthquake, tsunami, radiation disaster, and we kind of begin 683 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: the film with the tsunami and end with the cherry 684 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: blossom coming and the relationship with the cherry bosoms of 685 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: comforts everyone and lifts them into spring and new life 686 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 1: and new growth. That it was really an exquisite film, 687 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,560 Speaker 1: and it was amazing that it was nominative for the 688 00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,120 Speaker 1: Oscars as well as Emmys and stuff. So yeah, I've 689 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,959 Speaker 1: been really lucky that my films have been recognized, these 690 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:25,319 Speaker 1: two films, the tsunami film and also the fire film. 691 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: I think that's actually why I thought, Okay, I can 692 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: make this film about the fires, because I had made 693 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: that film about the tsunami, and I thought, I have 694 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: made films about the courage and grace and resiliency of 695 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:43,200 Speaker 1: the amazing people that you can see in these disaster situations. 696 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,480 Speaker 1: When you see human beings rise to the challenges that 697 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: the most horrifying, it's very captivating and you learn a lot. 698 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,919 Speaker 1: And I think I had the confidence to begin Bring 699 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,360 Speaker 1: your Own Brigade, which is a really difficult film to 700 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: make actually, because far is a really overwhelming problem and 701 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: it's much easy to pretend it's not happening and just 702 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: drive on past that fire and hope for the best, right, 703 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 1: but to really dig in and understand it like I 704 00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: wanted to that I think I had the confidence because 705 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: I had done that previous film about disaster. Now, documentary 706 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: film has exploded in the last twenty years. Everybody's buying 707 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: documentary films and wanting to program documentary films During your career, 708 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: have you noticed that as well? Yeah, absolutely, Well I 709 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,320 Speaker 1: feel like we do have thanks to this amazing technological 710 00:41:31,520 --> 00:41:34,920 Speaker 1: revolution of fantastic cameras where you can afford to shoot 711 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff, and fantastic editing computers where you 712 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: can really arrange that stuff to perfection without losing your mind, 713 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,960 Speaker 1: that you can really craft real life, and that we've 714 00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: really got these windows into these worlds now that we 715 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:55,880 Speaker 1: can make incredible films that really kind of magical instruments, 716 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 1: you know, as the microscope helps us peer into tiny cells, 717 00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: or the telescope help peer far away into stars. I 718 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,520 Speaker 1: feel like the documentary films can actually be a machine 719 00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: to glimpse how life happens. You know, when you see 720 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:13,040 Speaker 1: a wonderful documentary, you kind of get this perspective of 721 00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 1: how life actually unfolds, or how something works in the 722 00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: world or story that for me, it's just fascinating glimpses 723 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: into the kind of mechanics and machinery of how things 724 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: actually are, and that's just an incredible new thing that 725 00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: the technology has afforded us that does give wonderful actors 726 00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:35,919 Speaker 1: and scripts and run for their money. So I think 727 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 1: now that documentaries are fascinating to people, and I think 728 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: that there's room for both now, which is really really exciting. 729 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:47,279 Speaker 1: So everyone loves watching, you know, fantastic movies where the 730 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: story is written to perfection and performed to perfection by 731 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,919 Speaker 1: the best actors in the best locations and the best 732 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: costumes and all that glorious production value that we love. 733 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 1: Yet there's something about the reality and that these are 734 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: real people, this is a real situation, this is a 735 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: real story that's also really fascinating powerful, that's right. So 736 00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 1: I love the fact that right now in the world 737 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: that we have both. And I think also with the 738 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: streamers and these new platforms, people that the streamers know 739 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: that see the numbers and they see that audiences are 740 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,840 Speaker 1: really loving unscripted and nonfiction, and that's given them the 741 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:25,040 Speaker 1: confidence and the ability to commission more of it. And 742 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: so I feel like there's room for everything. And we're 743 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: finding these different audiences and serving these different audiences and 744 00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:34,799 Speaker 1: different curiosities, and I think that's really terrific. What are 745 00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:38,120 Speaker 1: you working on now? Oh, good question. I can say 746 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:42,560 Speaker 1: I'm very fascinated with psychedelic science and the incredible science 747 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,400 Speaker 1: that's coming in that shows that psychedelic molecules are actually 748 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 1: incredibly full of promise to treat the hardest to treat 749 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,960 Speaker 1: conditions that we have, depression, anxiety, o c D, PTSD, 750 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 1: eating disorders, the kind of anguish you have if you're 751 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: confronting a terminal diagnosis. These are things that are current 752 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,839 Speaker 1: medicines have nothing for addictions, alcoholism, and these are really 753 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: really hard to treat conditions causing huge, huge suffering around 754 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 1: the world. And it turns out that these psychedelic molecules 755 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: are actually showing incredible promise. I'm really excited about that, 756 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: and I have a couple of projects that will hopefully 757 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,799 Speaker 1: be coming out soon. As my friend once said, he 758 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 1: said he would take acid when he was young because 759 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: he wanted to tear down walls, the walls of perception 760 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,719 Speaker 1: that blocked him from seeing things in the best way 761 00:44:33,719 --> 00:44:36,400 Speaker 1: possible or the most open minded way possible. And that 762 00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: was when he was young, and then he got older 763 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,280 Speaker 1: and he said, it took me so long to build 764 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 1: those walls back up again. I can't bear the idea 765 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,719 Speaker 1: of tearing them down again. Told me he was not 766 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 1: going to be dropping acid in his fifties and sixties, 767 00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,760 Speaker 1: and well, he might be a lucky and happy person 768 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,800 Speaker 1: in his fifties. I think there's a lot of older 769 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,399 Speaker 1: people though, that kind of get stuck in the wrong rut, right, 770 00:44:56,440 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: And as we get older, it gets it can get harder, 771 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:03,960 Speaker 1: and people and get stuck in maladaptive defense mechanisms for example, 772 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: that might have outlived their usefulness that actually might be 773 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: getting in your own way. And for some people, actually, 774 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: for some people, tearing down those wolves can be a 775 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,839 Speaker 1: real gift as an intervention life. Well, listen, I want 776 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: to say I'm a great fan of yours. I'm a 777 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,560 Speaker 1: great admirer of your films. Thank you very much. Stay 778 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: safe out there, and we'll talk to you down the road, 779 00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: I hope. Okay, what a treat. Thank you, Lucy Walker. 780 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,960 Speaker 1: Her documentary about the California wildfires, Bring Your Own Brigade, 781 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: is streaming on Paramount Plus. This episode was produced by 782 00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:46,480 Speaker 1: Carrie Donohue, Zach McNeice, and Kathleen Russo. Our engineer is 783 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,359 Speaker 1: Frank Imperial, here's the thing. Is brought to you by 784 00:45:49,400 --> 00:46:06,760 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio, complete thing to be the way into