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Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is Will Chamberlain. Will is senior counsel

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Speaker 1: at the Article three Project and one of my absolute

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Speaker 1: favorite people to follow on X Hi. Will, So nice

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Speaker 1: to have you on.

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Speaker 2: Great to be with you, Carol.

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Speaker 1: I find that your feed is really smart and very

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Speaker 1: funny clever obviously, so I would love to know more

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Speaker 1: about you. How did you get into this thing of ours?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, this thing of ours, that's a good way

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Speaker 2: of describing it. Let's see.

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Speaker 3: In twenty seventeen, I had moved to DC to go

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Speaker 3: work for the Competitive Enterprise in Students, a lawyer I know,

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Speaker 3: graduate from georgehaw Law in twenty fifteen products and Big

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Speaker 3: Law had a cup of coffee, decidedn't like it. He

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Speaker 3: was back to DC, and then when I was in here,

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Speaker 3: I one of my the gut one of the I

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Speaker 3: basically met Mike Cernovich through a mutual friend who was

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Speaker 3: also my boss at CEI, and through Mike, who had

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Speaker 3: been following for years. At that point, I was like, Hey,

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Speaker 3: I want to you know, I'm pro Trump. I would

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Speaker 3: like to be hooked hooked in with the DC pro

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Speaker 3: Trump people. You know, Hey, I'm also you know at

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Speaker 3: George down Lograd like, you know, I'm a serious person,

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Speaker 3: so he did, and so then I started organizing. One

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Speaker 3: of the things I started doing was organizing cocktail hours

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Speaker 3: for MAGA figures and in the administration at the Trump Hotel,

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Speaker 3: which was a very good way to get to meet

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Speaker 3: everybody and sort of the many things that you know,

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Speaker 3: people do not necessarily know that, you know, big social

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Speaker 3: media platforms are often built offline with relationships that you

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Speaker 3: build with other people who have social media platforms. So

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Speaker 3: you know, that was how I kind of got my

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Speaker 3: foot in the door. And then you know, started posting

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Speaker 3: and had you know, bigger names at the time, like

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Speaker 3: people like Cernovic, who was obviously one of the first

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Speaker 3: big people amplify me, Jack Pisobic, And over time, I

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Speaker 3: do that long enough and I do say enough interesting

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Speaker 3: things that eventually a lot of people are following me.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, it's it's sort of interesting. I know a

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Speaker 3: lot of people build their platforms by doing something else

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Speaker 3: first and then using the fame they get from that

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Speaker 3: thing to build a social media platform. I kind of

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Speaker 3: did it in reverse. I built the social media platform

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Speaker 3: and then use that to do more and more interesting things.

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Speaker 1: It's funny. I also my my like when I got

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Speaker 1: my start in I had a blog and I would

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Speaker 1: throw happy hours and meeting people in real life had

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Speaker 1: you know, just had me make a lot of different

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Speaker 1: connections and a lot of people started reading me and

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Speaker 1: it kind of took off from there. I think the

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Speaker 1: real life thing really shouldn't be overlooked.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's usually important.

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Speaker 3: And you know, you can't you can't start out being

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Speaker 3: in the middle of nowhere not knowing anybody, right, You're well,

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Speaker 3: you can't do anything on hard mode doing everything on.

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Speaker 2: Hard mode exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was that was sort of how if

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Speaker 3: you want to little how did I get my break

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Speaker 3: into this space? That that's how I got it. I

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Speaker 3: mean that said like you can get your break. Plenty

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Speaker 3: of people have had their break and don't say interesting

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Speaker 3: things for long enough to remain interesting. Like you do

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Speaker 3: something and get attention for it. But if they don't

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Speaker 3: have I mean fundamentally excess. A platform is built on

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Speaker 3: having interesting things to say about them with the events

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Speaker 3: of the day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, you could say one thing and get a

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Speaker 1: lot of followers, but then you know, I don't think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people hang.

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Speaker 3: On to that right, right And if or if you

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Speaker 3: only have one message and then that message no longer

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Speaker 3: is relevant, well then what else are you going to

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Speaker 3: talk about?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: And so you know, and then also you have to

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Speaker 3: think about how you build your following. If you built

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Speaker 3: your following saying exactly one thing to you know, cheerlead

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Speaker 3: for something, then you can't change your mind because that's

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Speaker 3: why people are following you, because you're the guy who

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Speaker 3: says the thing you don't want to say the thing.

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Speaker 1: So I went to the Article three project website in

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Speaker 1: preparation for this because I wanted to know more about it,

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Speaker 1: more about you, and I loved the tagline on the

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Speaker 1: front page. It says, a three P brings brass knuckles

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Speaker 1: to fight leftist law fair. What does that mean? What

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Speaker 1: do you guys do?

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Speaker 3: We're bullies. So that's that's the core of our our

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Speaker 3: you know, we we we bully you know, legislators into

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Speaker 3: confirming the people we think should be confirmed. We try

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Speaker 3: and advocate on behalf of you know, like you know,

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Speaker 3: to get judges confirmed that will be good.

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Speaker 2: On the law.

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Speaker 3: We try and advocate for judges to do the right

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Speaker 3: thing in cases, and we try and win the debates

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Speaker 3: internally on the right, especially about what the conservati legal

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Speaker 3: movement should be doing and what conservatives lawyers should be doing.

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Speaker 3: And so we find ourselves in conflict with people like

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Speaker 3: Ed Wheland, for example, who might be like a you know,

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Speaker 3: kind of squishy or republican, you know, telling conservative judges,

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Speaker 3: conservative lawyers that they should be more hesitant, weak need

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Speaker 3: that sort of thing. In our view, I won't be

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Speaker 3: too uncharitable, but that's that's that's a big part of

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Speaker 3: what we do. And so it involves the pressure that

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Speaker 3: both you know, myself, Mike Davis, Josh Hammer, all of

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Speaker 3: us can put through our advacy on X, through op eds,

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Speaker 3: through media hits. And then because all of us have

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Speaker 3: a lot of followers, how we engage those followers and

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Speaker 3: get them to speak to legislators, to and to the

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Speaker 3: public and to the executive branch. So that's through campaigns

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Speaker 3: where you know, we've set a portal they can just

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Speaker 3: contact and email people. So all this is just a

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Speaker 3: it's a very very effective and aggressive advocacy organization. We're

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Speaker 3: not very big, it's probably like ten people total involved,

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Speaker 3: in any of them are consultants. But in terms of

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Speaker 3: like the core, you know, what we're able to have.

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Speaker 3: We have a lot of force that we can bring

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Speaker 3: to bear on any particular issue, and when we do,

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Speaker 3: I think we end up leading the way and kind

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Speaker 3: of setting the line for the conservative movement on legal issues.

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Speaker 3: Now I think that's where we are. It used to

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Speaker 3: be that other groups did that, but now it feels

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Speaker 3: like those groups, those groups are kind of don't want

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Speaker 3: to if we set the line.

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Speaker 2: They don't want to get on the.

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Speaker 3: Wrong side of us because they were both We're really

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Speaker 3: good bullies, so it's really not pleasant to be on

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Speaker 3: the wrong side of us.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because I often think the conservative side doesn't

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Speaker 1: really have bullies. I think that so much of what

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Speaker 1: we do is just there's a lot of squishy people

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Speaker 1: and people who don't fight back and don't put up

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Speaker 1: the arguments and don't want to offend anybody. And I

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Speaker 1: think it's very hard to be the bully in that environment.

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Speaker 1: Do you guys find that.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think it's hard.

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Speaker 3: I think it you know, if anything, the vacuum of

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Speaker 3: having people who are really aggressive and setting the line

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Speaker 3: on these things made it was is what meant that

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Speaker 3: there was just such a huge audience for what we're doing,

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Speaker 3: and so so many people who got behind us and

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Speaker 3: support what we're doing. Because I think the fundamental, you know,

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Speaker 3: the fundamental failure of the conservative legal movement is honestly,

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Speaker 3: for years they weren't deeply loyal to conservative voters. They

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Speaker 3: were kind of doing their own thing and you know,

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Speaker 3: had their own sort of clique in their own norms,

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Speaker 3: et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so we come

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Speaker 3: in and we say, no, actually, you know what, you know,

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Speaker 3: the people who are the reason you get to be

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Speaker 3: judges and lawyers and the administration, the people who voted

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Speaker 3: for Republican presidents, they have they have asks, and you know,

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Speaker 3: you don't you know, the idea that you would just

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Speaker 3: be completely oblivious to that and not on board with

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Speaker 3: the broader conservative project, not just the conservative legal movements project,

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Speaker 3: broader conservative project is it's just not going to fly anymore.

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Speaker 3: And so, you know, and I think that's one of

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Speaker 3: the reasons, like, you know, Mike is so popular on

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Speaker 3: he goes on ban and he goes wherever. I mean,

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Speaker 3: all three of us have built enormous platforms, really, and

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Speaker 3: what is my platform?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: Again, I didn't come at this from the perspective of gosh,

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Speaker 3: I have the stature from running a television show or something,

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Speaker 3: you know, being a major play I've never served in

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Speaker 3: the administration. I served briefly for Ronda Santas on his

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Speaker 3: on the legal side for a couple of months before

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Speaker 3: I got bored with it, so you know that all.

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Speaker 3: But the reason is is because I know this, right,

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Speaker 3: I have a very powerful and persuasive voice when it

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Speaker 3: comes to legal issues. Conservatives think I'm usually the people

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Speaker 3: on our side think I'm right about things, at least

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Speaker 3: when it comes to the law. And so that's that's

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Speaker 3: the force, Like, it's persuasive force.

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Speaker 2: I don't. I don't. I'm not physically beating on people.

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Speaker 1: No, obviously you're not like putting them in a headlock.

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Speaker 1: But metaphorically speaking, right, what are some big wins you

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Speaker 1: guys have had.

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Speaker 3: We got Pete haig Seth confirmed. I think that was

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Speaker 3: a big one. That's the biggest one. Off the top

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Speaker 3: of my head. That were not the only people who

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Speaker 3: worked on that, but we were a big part of

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Speaker 3: making sure that he got confirmed. There were a lot

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Speaker 3: of people whining about that, and once once we got involved,

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Speaker 3: they stopped doing that. Who are the other people that

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to think of off the top.

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Speaker 2: Of my head. We got Amil Beouv confirmed. That's another

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Speaker 2: big win.

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Speaker 3: There were a lot of Republicans who were kind of

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Speaker 3: wishy washy about that, and then we came out in

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Speaker 3: full force behind the nomination and made the aggressive arguments.

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Speaker 3: Ed Wheelan was like a really big conservative figure trying

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Speaker 3: to get his people to not vote for Amil Bov.

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Speaker 3: And again, we have a tiny majority in the Assenate.

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Speaker 3: So if he managed to peel off one or two

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Speaker 3: people with his decades of you know, relationships and work

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Speaker 3: and prestige and the conservative legal movement that he could have,

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Speaker 3: you know, he should have. You think that he would

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Speaker 3: be able to peel off one or two of the

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Speaker 3: most moderate centers. Didn't happen. And I think a big

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Speaker 3: part of that was, you know, by the time we

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Speaker 3: were done advocating on that issue, Ed Whelan had blocked

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Speaker 3: every single one of us. He had blocked me, he

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Speaker 3: blocked Josh Hammer, and he had blocked Mike And you know,

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Speaker 3: his job is to beat us, right Actually, when you

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Speaker 3: think about it, like if he if his job is

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Speaker 3: literally to win the debate with us online because he

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Speaker 3: is advocating for a different view of how the considered

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Speaker 3: legal mature work. He works at a nonprofit, he's taking

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Speaker 3: donations to that effect. If he's blocking the three of

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Speaker 3: us and just trying to ignore that we exist, it's like, well,

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Speaker 3: then you've we've won, you've lost, Like we're you know,

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Speaker 3: because we're speaking to hundreds of thousands of people, you're

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Speaker 3: speaking to a few thousand. So you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: not winning the debate with us that, if you're just

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Speaker 3: not even participating, then we just went.

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Speaker 2: By a fall.

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Speaker 1: What would you be doing if it weren't this, What

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Speaker 1: would a plan be?

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Speaker 3: Gosh, I don't know. I mean, it's hard to say.

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Speaker 3: In some abstract sense, Plant B would be going back

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Speaker 3: to practice law in the normal way, which I don't

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Speaker 3: have any intention of doing, or trying to go work

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Speaker 3: in some state government somewhere. I guess I could have

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Speaker 3: gone back to Ronda Santis and worked somewhere in the

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Speaker 3: Florida state government. Maybe I could have gone to work

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Speaker 3: for the administration. But you know, all those things would

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Speaker 3: be options. But I much prefer doing what I do now,

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Speaker 3: which allows me to have this kind of bucolic suburban

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Speaker 3: life with living working from home with my family and

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Speaker 3: then also being extremely involved in the issues of the

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Speaker 3: day through X like yeah, I just.

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Speaker 1: Met your wife. She is lovely.

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Speaker 2: Really she's great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, really great.

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Speaker 3: Pair got two beautiful too beautiful kids and hopefully more

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Speaker 3: on the quay in the future, and love it. You know,

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Speaker 3: we both work in North Carolina, we both live and

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Speaker 3: work in our from our home in North Carolina, but

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Speaker 3: where you know, she's at the Manhattan Institute and goes

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Speaker 3: up to New York every so often.

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Speaker 2: I'm here.

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Speaker 3: I go out to d C when I need to

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Speaker 3: for Article three so and for other things as well.

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Speaker 3: I help with the national consertives and conferences and help

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Speaker 3: organize those and pok together panels.

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Speaker 2: So all that is, all that is.

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Speaker 1: Gravy segs very well to my one of my three

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Speaker 1: questions that I ask all my guests, what are you

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Speaker 1: most proud of in your life?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, that's an interesting I read that I

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Speaker 3: was an interesting question because and the answer is beyond

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Speaker 3: obviously my family and having what I've built with my wife,

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Speaker 3: I am proudest of what I've built in terms of

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Speaker 3: my ex account, right, And it's not just you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a that's the product of ten years of work, right,

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Speaker 3: ten years of advocacy, and so you know, is there

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Speaker 3: a book at the end of it?

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Speaker 2: No, I haven't really, Oh is there a book at

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Speaker 2: the end of it? Maybe there will be. I have

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Speaker 2: to like actually find a way to sit down and

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Speaker 2: do that.

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Speaker 3: I have terrible add So that's one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: I find Exo appealing is that I can fire off

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Speaker 3: thoughts quickly. But it's a product. My ex account is

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Speaker 3: a products ten years of work, and it's at this

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Speaker 3: point it's its own kind of phenomenon. I mean, not

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Speaker 3: a huge phenomenon in the world, but it's like it's

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Speaker 3: a very powerful thing that allows me to have influence

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Speaker 3: on the issues of the day, get asked to testify

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Speaker 3: before Congress, you know, get you know, have meet all

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Speaker 3: sorts of interesting people, be followed by all sorts of

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Speaker 3: interesting people, go on interesting shows like this one. And

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Speaker 3: so I'm really really proud of the platform I've built.

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Speaker 3: I've proud that I've managed through years of being advocating

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Speaker 3: on very aggressively for on a variety of topics as

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Speaker 3: aggressive as anybody I think in the e sertive legal movement,

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Speaker 3: still having built up this platform, having and also having

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Speaker 3: done so in a way that doesn't I'm not pigeonholed

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Speaker 3: into anything. As far as I can tell, like I

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Speaker 3: can say, I say what I think, and I can

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Speaker 3: have a bunch of people who are following me because

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Speaker 3: they respect that I say what I think and that

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Speaker 3: I or at a minimum, I do not say what

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Speaker 3: I do not think right like sometimes hold I do

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Speaker 3: hold my tongue at times, especially given that we currently

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Speaker 3: control the administration, It would be kind of rude of

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Speaker 3: me to break them on Twitter when I could pick

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Speaker 3: up the phone. But you can count on me to

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Speaker 3: not say things I don't think, and yeah, and be

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Speaker 3: and be be interesting and contrarian at times, because you know,

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Speaker 3: that's that's what I built.

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Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break and be right

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Speaker 1: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. Do you have any

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Speaker 1: legal like pet issues? Are there? Are there things that

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Speaker 1: you really care about? There are more?

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, the funny thing is I won on

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Speaker 3: the biggest issue I cared about, and I didn't win

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Speaker 3: through the law I won because Elon Musk bought Twitter right,

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Speaker 3: you know, and so basically for years, my big piece

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Speaker 3: of advocacy, you know, before for anything else, was yeah,

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Speaker 3: everybody should have a right to use Twitter right. They're

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Speaker 3: basically like the idea of permanent bands of individuals bizarre

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Speaker 3: things that were perfectly lawful, was wrong. That free speech

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Speaker 3: isn't meaningful in the modern era if you're not allowed

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Speaker 3: to speak freely on the Internet, so that we needed

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Speaker 3: to have legal change.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: Basically, you know, I kept talking, and I remember very

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Speaker 3: early on, we're talking like seven, twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 3: I'd go on with people and people would be like,

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Speaker 3: what free speech civil right? Like, what do you mean

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Speaker 3: that's intervention in private business? I won that debate. You'll

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Speaker 3: notice nobody talks that way anymore like that that. I

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Speaker 3: just had that debate over and over again with people

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Speaker 3: and discuss people who are skeptical on our side, and

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Speaker 3: they were persuaded like I was just right. And also, thankfully,

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Speaker 3: Twitter just kept behaving in such an obnoxious and ridiculous

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Speaker 3: fashion that my arguments yeah, seemed endlessly more persuasive. So

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Speaker 3: at that point, at a certain point, then you know eventually.

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Speaker 3: You know, here's a funny story, right, I set Dealing,

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Speaker 3: Seth Dealing at one point had a discussion would be

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Speaker 3: about this right where he was trying to probe my views.

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Speaker 3: We have like a white fee I think text my

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Speaker 3: conversation and phone call. And then Seth Deal went on

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Speaker 3: with Elon Musk, right, Elon Musk went on his podcast

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Speaker 3: and I think they talked about this stuff.

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Speaker 2: And then Elon Musk went out and on Twitter.

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Speaker 1: So you can, you know, basically just thinka you're the starter.

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Speaker 3: There, right, I get the I feel like I said

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Speaker 3: about that maybe yeah yeah, but thank you staff, thank

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Speaker 3: you obviously Elon for buying it. I didn't have forty

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Speaker 3: billion laying around, but talk about a bus x macana.

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Speaker 3: That basically ended the salience of that issue. I mean,

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Speaker 3: who talks about free speech? And then we don't have

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Speaker 3: to worry about it because we have of the biggest platform,

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Speaker 3: the most important one is controlled by us. So like

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Speaker 3: whatever YouTube does, whatever Facebook does, like whatever who cares X?

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah I can put it on X and X

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Speaker 3: X is where all the serious people are who I

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Speaker 3: want to you know, who you know have real deal

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Speaker 3: influence are So if I can put it there. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: not Blue Sky now, Blue Guy. I mean Blue Sky

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Speaker 3: is making the mistake that all the competitors we're making

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Speaker 3: when we were getting banned in like twenty twenty. I mean,

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Speaker 3: because the fundamental problem is and this is something this

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Speaker 3: is the beginning of my argument, like X is a

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Speaker 3: natural monopoly. There's always going to be You're not You're

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Speaker 3: gonna have so much trouble replacing the public square with

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Speaker 3: like a separate, smaller public square that only has people

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Speaker 3: who agree with you. That's so much less interesting than

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Speaker 3: the real public square where everybody is debating. So I

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Speaker 3: think Blue Sky, what you're seeing is what happens to

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Speaker 3: all these other platforms. Right, people are like explore it,

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Speaker 3: like have a little fun for a while, feel really

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Speaker 3: good because they're talking to people that.

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Speaker 2: Everybody agrees with you. Yeah, and then it's really a

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Speaker 2: board and want to go back to X.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And they always come back, they do, They always.

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Speaker 3: Come back, yeah, because that's where that's that's where the

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Speaker 3: discussion with weight happens. Right that you know, you can

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Speaker 3: get cheerleading on some small little platform that isn't X,

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Speaker 3: but X is where the discussions with weight that have

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Speaker 3: impact happen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, at the time when people are getting banned on

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Speaker 1: X for saying things like you know, masks don't work,

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Speaker 1: or I mean all kinds of insanity, I was thinking, like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to go to one of these smaller platforms.

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Speaker 1: I just don't care. Like if I get banned from X,

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Speaker 1: I get banned from X, I'm not going to go

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Speaker 1: have the conversation with people who already agree with me.

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Speaker 1: And that's it. It has to be put out to

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Speaker 1: the larger audience. Otherwise it just doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I agree.

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Speaker 1: Give us a five year out prediction, could be about

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Speaker 1: anything at all.

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Speaker 3: Five year out prediction, I mean anything at all, Like

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Speaker 3: we're going to have self driving cars are going to dominate.

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Speaker 2: We're right at the cusp.

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Speaker 3: But self driving car is becoming the thing, and you know,

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Speaker 3: I already I'm already seeing like people able to drive

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Speaker 3: all around the country and their Tesla's. I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: it took maybe ten to fifteen years longer than people thought,

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Speaker 3: but it's here now, and five years from now it's

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Speaker 3: we're going to start having debates about exactly who gets

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Speaker 3: to drive and who doesn't, because driving is going to

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Speaker 3: be seen as one of the things that humans do,

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Speaker 3: and it's very dangerous. It's so many people die on

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Speaker 3: the road. So maybe that's more like ten to fifteen

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Speaker 3: year prediction. But like we're not far from self driving

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Speaker 3: being just self driving is already better than elderly drivers

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Speaker 3: for instance, Like you know, my parents are getting up

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Speaker 3: there and I recommend, like, you know, there of means,

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Speaker 3: and I was like, your next car should probably be

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Speaker 3: a Tesla because you can't you know, you're in the

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Speaker 3: stage where you know, you don't want to drive at night.

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Speaker 3: Tesla will drive at night.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I only use the Tesla at night. It's

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Speaker 1: it's actually my husband's car. But if I'm driving somewhere

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Speaker 1: at night, yeah, I'm a great driver at night all whatever.

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Speaker 1: But I like the self driving. I don't have to

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Speaker 1: really think about it at night.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and like five to ten years, it'll just be

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Speaker 3: obvious that the self driving is better. But yeah, no,

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Speaker 3: self driving is coming. That would be my big five

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Speaker 3: year prediction.

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Speaker 1: It's funny because do you think Americans are going to

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Speaker 1: go for it? Americans are just so like I drive

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Speaker 1: my own car, you know, very independent and like nobody

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Speaker 1: could take away our freedom of self driving, and I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I kind of think Americans might rebel a

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Speaker 1: little bit against it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean they might, but I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think ultimately the safety argument will be so persuasive,

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Speaker 3: and I think that, you know, you'll still have some

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Speaker 3: I think that it'll be one of those things that

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Speaker 3: you're just it'll be more restricted and maybe every car

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Speaker 3: will have to have some sort of self driving takeover

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Speaker 3: to prevent accidents. That would be an interesting thing. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but it'll be I mean, it's just you're gonna everybody's

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Speaker 3: going to be confronted with the force of the fact that, like,

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Speaker 3: we can be saving lives tens of thousands of people

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Speaker 3: who die in the year in car accidents, and thirty

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Speaker 3: years from now, they're going to look at us like

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Speaker 3: we're barbarians. Like what you have sec and you weren't

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Speaker 3: using it and you could have saved tens of thousand

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Speaker 3: people a year, Like.

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Speaker 1: Come on, Well, I have loved this conversation. I've love

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Speaker 1: getting to know you a little bit. Better leave us

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Speaker 1: here with your best tip from my listeners on how

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Speaker 1: they can improve their lives.

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Speaker 3: How you can improve your lives. I think it is

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Speaker 3: how to read How to Win friends and Influence people.

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Speaker 3: So much of what people struggle with is understanding that you,

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Speaker 3: you know, you should try and be easy to be

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Speaker 3: friends with and easy to support. I think a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in our space, especially get kind of narcissistic

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Speaker 3: and don't think through you know, are they being you know,

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Speaker 3: they get and they also get obsessed about particular things.

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Speaker 3: It's like always, you know, it's really useful to remember

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Speaker 3: that it's important to be a good friend.

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Speaker 1: I love that he is Will Chamberlain. Check him out

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Speaker 1: on x follow the article three project. Thank you so much, Will,

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Speaker 1: all right

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me