1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:05,199 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 2 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: Rumors start to spread that the Crown Prince is going 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 2: to commit patricide, and that kind of triggers the Crown 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 2: Prince's mother into telling the king like, you should probably 5 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,920 Speaker 2: get rid of our son before he kills you. 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 7 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold War Wicked and the co host 9 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled 10 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true 12 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those 13 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold War 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: Wicked presents wicked words about the choices that writers make, 15 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,560 Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: behind the stories. Have you ever heard of the Rice 17 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: Chest Prince. It's a real story from Korean history, and 18 00:01:14,480 --> 00:01:17,680 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating look at the dynamic between a king 19 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,400 Speaker 1: and his son and how it turned so tragic. Author 20 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: June Her explores her culture in her novel The Red Palace, 21 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: as she uses the Prince's story for inspiration. So this story, 22 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 1: I mean, let's first talk about your book. You had 23 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: a real true crime story in history, which is right 24 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 1: up my alley that inspired your book. Because you're a novelist, 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: you're not a narrative nonfiction writer. So tell me first 26 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:48,360 Speaker 1: about your career in writing before we pivot to why 27 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: this inspired you. This real story inspired you, tell me 28 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:52,560 Speaker 1: kind of what the origin story is. 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 2: Yes, So my origin story is I actually started off 30 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 2: writing British historicals. I fell in love with Prad and 31 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 2: Prejudice when I was twelve, and I wrote Prad and 32 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 2: Prejudice fan fiction for years, and then I kind of 33 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 2: moved over to British historicals. And when I was in 34 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,120 Speaker 2: high school, I went to Korea for high school, and 35 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 2: I didn't really understand the language. I was failing in class, 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 2: and school usually starts in the morning and it ends 37 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: at eleven pm, and so I'm stuck there for the 38 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 2: whole day, and so it became my writing book camp. 39 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: Basically I would spend my whole day just writing, writing, writing, 40 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: and that's where I decided I wanted to become an author. 41 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 2: But then after spending ten years writing my British historical 42 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 2: it wasn't getting anywhere, and so finally I kind of 43 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,920 Speaker 2: took a break. And when I came back to writing, 44 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 2: I was like, you know what, let's take a break 45 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 2: from British history. As much as I love British history, 46 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: let's search for other histories I'm interested in. And that's 47 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 2: when I decided to give my own history a try 48 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: Korean history. And when I started reading some articles up 49 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,239 Speaker 2: on it, I fell madly in love with it, and 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: I was like, I'll just give it a try, like 51 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: it probably won't get polished, but I'll try to write 52 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: a book. And then somehow it turned into a mystery. 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 2: I've always loved mystery, but I never thought I was 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: smart enough to write a mystery. But I'm like, you 55 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:17,840 Speaker 2: know what, history itself is a mystery, and so using 56 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 2: mystery became my vehicle, my way of exploring the past 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: of Korea. 58 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 1: If you are a novelist, a fiction writer who is 59 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 1: interested in doing a mystery true crime, where do you 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,200 Speaker 1: start looking for inspiration in history? 61 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: I try to find as many primary sources as I can. 62 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: When it came to my other books, it was tricky 63 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: because a lot of the primary sources aren't translated into English. 64 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: It's easy for me to look up secondary sources, but 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 2: I've had trouble finding primary sources besides letters and so on. 66 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 2: But when it came to the Red Palace, I had 67 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:55,240 Speaker 2: an entire memoir written by the Crown Prince's wife, and 68 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 2: so I basically used her memoir as my kind of 69 00:03:58,720 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 2: foundation for plot. So I basically studied the book and 70 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 2: I wrote out the timeline of the book. And so 71 00:04:05,640 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 2: for me, I was just figure out where in the 72 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 2: timeline did I want to begin, and then from there 73 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: I would take history. And I tried not to like 74 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 2: fiddle too much with the actual history, and I used 75 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: that to shape the plot of the story. 76 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: You made up dialogue, though. 77 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: Most of the dialogue was made up, But when it 78 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,919 Speaker 2: came to the glimpses we get between the Prince and 79 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: the father that was either inspired by what I found 80 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 2: in the memoir or word for word taken from what 81 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 2: he actually said. 82 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,680 Speaker 1: I can't imagine writing fiction. I am not that creative. 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: I don't think I think I would have to find 84 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: some kind of an inspiration. And this story is a 85 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 1: hell of a story. To base your novel on because 86 00:04:49,000 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: I had never heard of it, and I often say 87 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: the deader the better for me. I really like old crime. 88 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: I do because I think you read these stories and 89 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: you just realize the themes just are the same as 90 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: they are now. They felt the same way, there were 91 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: the same motives for killing, the reactions were the same. 92 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 1: Oftentimes the victims reacted similarly than we would in twenty 93 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: twenty three. So I think the story is really interesting, 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: and I'm assuming that this really unlocked within you a 95 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: creativity and also of course an interest in where you're 96 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: from and from your culture. 97 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 2: Yes, so I've actually been fascinated by Crown Prince Hutto 98 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: for many years. Ever since I began researching for my 99 00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: first book, he kept popping up like whatever history I'm 100 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 2: exploring about Korea, his name comes up often. And I 101 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,600 Speaker 2: didn't realize that until I actually started studying about Crown 102 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: Prince Huttle, and then I realized he's such a central 103 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: point towards the more modern side of Korean history, like 104 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 2: the nineteenth century, he has impacted and shaped so much 105 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: of politics and just the psyche of royals that learning 106 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,160 Speaker 2: about who he is and his tragedy and also his 107 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,880 Speaker 2: violence and so on. It helped me understand that latter 108 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 2: half of the Chosen period. It's interesting because I actually 109 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: grew up with stories about him. My mom would call 110 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 2: him the rice chest Prince and I'd be like, what 111 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 2: is that rice chess prince? And I kind of brushed 112 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 2: it aside until I got older, and that curiosity helped 113 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: me learn about him, and it was really heartbreaking but 114 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 2: also very disturbing, and it raised a lot of questions 115 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: which I'll hopefully be able to talk more about later on. 116 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: Well, let's start from the beginning. Where are we in 117 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: history in Korea? What is happening in Korea? Who's ruling it? 118 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,279 Speaker 2: So we are in eighteenth century Korea, and this period 119 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 2: was called the Chosun Dynasty, and basically the Chosun dynasty 120 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: lasted from thirteen ninety two to eighteen ninety seven. This 121 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:55,600 Speaker 2: period is when it was known for cultural achievements, including 122 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 2: the development of the Korean alphabet, which is known as Hunger, 123 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,839 Speaker 2: and during this time was very hierarchical and Confucianism was 124 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: the dominant philosophy. So basically, the king was seen as 125 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: the top of the social hierarchy. And the king during 126 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: this time was King Yuanjo, and the king was seen 127 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 2: as a link between heaven and earth. And then beneath 128 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: him was the aristocrats, and they were known as yungbun. 129 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: Women were expected to be subservient to men, and they 130 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 2: had very limited education and very limited opportunities to even work. 131 00:07:28,000 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: It was a very strict time for women during this period, and. 132 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: Women come into play to a certain extent to me 133 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: in a very surprising way in this story. Later on, 134 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: let's talk about wealth. I know wealth can be relative 135 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: in certain kingdoms. What was the wealth like for this family, 136 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: for this royal family in Korea in the seventeen hundreds. 137 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 2: Maybe it's because of the Confucian values, it wasn't so 138 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 2: much wealth, but they focused a lot on academics, like 139 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:58,960 Speaker 2: what does it mean to be a benevolent king? What 140 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 2: does it mean to be a true follower of Confucian teachings? 141 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 2: And so, I know, in this latter half of the 142 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 2: Chosen period, there was a lot of emphasis on simplicity. 143 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,600 Speaker 2: Before in the earlier period of Korea, they would wear 144 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 2: like elaborate wigs with a lot of adornments. But then 145 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 2: as we move on towards the latter half of this period, 146 00:08:19,920 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: women would simplify a lot when it comes to fashion 147 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: and even makeup. They went more towards like try to 148 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 2: look like you're not wearing your makeup. When I was 149 00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: studying the memoirs, I never read any mentions of wealth. 150 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 2: Considering Korea was a hermit kingdom and they were a 151 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: vassal state to China. They were overall a poor country, 152 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,720 Speaker 2: but I'm not sure how rich the royal family was 153 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 2: compared to the overall poorness of the Koreans. 154 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about the king and the queen. We 155 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 1: would refer to her as the queen though even though 156 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: there's a concubine there. Yes, can you explain the system 157 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: and what the various wives were to the king because 158 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: the story centers on his children from his favorite concubine. 159 00:08:59,400 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Is that right? 160 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: Mm hmm. So there is the king, the queen, and 161 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: then he has concubines, who are usually court ladies that 162 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: he's come to favor, and so he raises them in rank. 163 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 2: So the court ladies would become concubines, or any woman 164 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,440 Speaker 2: he takes an interest in officially becomes a concubine, and 165 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 2: concubines usually have the status of a wife, like the 166 00:09:26,600 --> 00:09:29,559 Speaker 2: privileges of a wife, unless of course, he forgets him. 167 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: One step above the concubines are the royal consorts, so 168 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 2: they are the concubines that he particularly favors, and they 169 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: have even more power over the court and more prestige 170 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,680 Speaker 2: and respect. But there's one queen, is that right, Yes, 171 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: there's one queen, okay. 172 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: So he has two children, but one died I think 173 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: when he was very young, like nine. And then we 174 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: have the Crown Prince, who is the center of the story. 175 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: So the memoir that you've read is the woman who 176 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: would eventually become the wife of the Crown Prince who 177 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: is at the center of the story. So there's a 178 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: lot of information about her time, which my understanding is 179 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: they were married when they were eight years old. 180 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 2: Yes, they were married really young, and I think that 181 00:10:13,400 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: it was a custom back then to have them betrothed 182 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: and marry at a young age. 183 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: And my understanding was they were playmates essentially. But as 184 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: the Crown Prince gets older as the only son, the 185 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: person who's going to take over for his father, we're 186 00:10:26,920 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 1: learning a lot about the dynamic between the father and 187 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: the son. So can you describe first what the king 188 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: is like, not towards the people who are underneath him, 189 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: but towards his son specifically, he seems very abusive. 190 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 2: Oh, yes, very abusive. So it's really sad because when 191 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: the Crown Prince Huddle was born in seventeen thirty five, 192 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: he was the only surviving meal here and so when 193 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: he was born, just imagine your only son, future king 194 00:10:56,160 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 2: is born and he was exhilarated. He absolutely adored his 195 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: son when he was first born. And I think because 196 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: of this excitement, when the prince was only one hundred 197 00:11:06,040 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 2: days old, he took the son away from the mom 198 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: and he put him in the official residence of the 199 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 2: Crown Prince. And this was far on the other side 200 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: of the palace, and Crown Prince Haddo was basically raised 201 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 2: by strangers, by palace women and eunuchs, and not by 202 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 2: his mother, and so that's how he was raised. And 203 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: still at this time, the father really adored his son, 204 00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:29,320 Speaker 2: so he would still come visit his son. He'd even 205 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 2: stay overnight to just spend more time with his son. 206 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,640 Speaker 2: And then when he was around five years old, that's 207 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,199 Speaker 2: when the relationship started to sour, almost over nothing, because 208 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 2: the king would get annoyed by little things, like little 209 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 2: imperfections about his son. And I'm not sure what Lady 210 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: high Young meant by that in the memoirs, but I'm thinking, 211 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 2: you know, just imagine a toddler. They're messy, they're sometimes annoying, 212 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 2: and I think just that maybe overwhelmed the king. And 213 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 2: there are theories that the king was a perfectionist and 214 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: he was all about becoming that perfect, virtuous ruler and 215 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,199 Speaker 2: then when he saw his toddler, he was like, oh 216 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 2: my goodness, this is chaos. And so that's when things 217 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: start to fall apart. 218 00:12:10,520 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: Starting at age five, they already have yeah. Boy. So 219 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,679 Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like as he gets older that all 220 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 1: is right with the crown Prince. Even aside from his 221 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: father being increasingly abusive. He starts to show some erratic 222 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: behavior as he gets a little bit older. Can you 223 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about that? 224 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: All that I know, most of it is based on 225 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: the memoirs along with articles I read on the psychology 226 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: of the prince. One thing I want to make clear 227 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 2: is like just because someone has mental health issues, it 228 00:12:43,600 --> 00:12:47,240 Speaker 2: doesn't make them violent. There's several factors that led to 229 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 2: the prince's downfall. But based on the memoirs, we see, 230 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: as you mentioned, the king is growing more abusive, and 231 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 2: this abuse takes form in basically the king accumulating the sun. 232 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: Even when there was like a storm, the king would 233 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 2: be like, there's a storm because of the prince's lack 234 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: of virtue, because back then any kind of natural disaster 235 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 2: was connected to the lack of virtue among the ruling class, 236 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 2: among the royal family. So you have this intense pressure 237 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: from the father being like, you're not perfect, Why are 238 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,680 Speaker 2: you not studying? Why are you just like playing all day? 239 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,360 Speaker 2: And so from there we start to see the prince deteriorating. 240 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 2: And I think one of the most obvious things was 241 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: the prince had a lot of trouble trying to figure 242 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 2: out what to wear. The court ladis would be super 243 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 2: terrified every morning because they'd have to dress him, but 244 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 2: he'd have to go through almost a hundred robes to 245 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: be like, Okay, this is what I'm going to wear. 246 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 2: And one of the theories as to why he was 247 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 2: like so paranoid about what he'd wear was because each 248 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 2: time he went out wearing something, his father would be like, 249 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 2: why are you looking so disheveled, like why is this 250 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,720 Speaker 2: not tired properly? Or why does your parents look like that? 251 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:59,240 Speaker 2: And it was like constant criticism after criticism, and so 252 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,439 Speaker 2: the theories is that he was so terrified of wearing 253 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 2: clothes because he knew the criticism that would come from 254 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 2: his father from that, so that was like one sign 255 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: that something was not well with him. There were words 256 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,120 Speaker 2: that triggered him, and he was terrified of looking up 257 00:14:14,120 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 2: at the sky, and so there's like, yeah, all these 258 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 2: kind of symptoms. I don't know what they stem from, 259 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: but all I know is that there was a lot 260 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: of anxiety and terror in him. 261 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: And like you said, his father was blaming him for 262 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: an awful lot, and his father, as the Crown Prince 263 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 1: grows older, looks at him and starts to say, I 264 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: don't know if this is gonna work as somebody who 265 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 1: is the heir to this throne. Do you have any 266 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: idea about how the Crown Prince's mother was toward him. 267 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: I'll tell you what I have read. I had read 268 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: that the Crown Prince's mother was really just mostly concerned 269 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: with I'm assuming not being punished by her husband and 270 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: just let everything happen, and you're right, he had been 271 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: raised on his own. Do you get that impression that 272 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: the mother was not really part of this picture right now? 273 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 2: When I was reading the Mors, she was mostly absent 274 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:07,600 Speaker 2: when disasters truck and the prince caused trouble, or there 275 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: was a heated argument between the father and the crown prince. 276 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: I never really read of, like, you know, the mother 277 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: trying to come into interfere or to stand up for him. 278 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 2: It was Lady heg Young, and there were older female 279 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: figures I believe, like the Dowager Queen. They were the 280 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 2: ones that stood up for the prince. There's a mention 281 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: in the book that his relationship with his father deteriorated 282 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 2: when the guardian figures basically died off from old age. 283 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 2: And so Lady hag Young mentioned how the prince was 284 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: totally alone in the palace even when his mother was alive. 285 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 2: So that kind of suggests to me that his mom 286 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 2: was not his ally. 287 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: Now, you mentioned how important education was for the men 288 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: in Korea in this time period, particularly as a member 289 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: of the royal family. Did he do well in scholastics? 290 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: Do you know? 291 00:15:55,840 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 2: No, he didn't. 292 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: Oh, so that was a big problem. I'm sure that. 293 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: Was the central problem. He was more interested in the 294 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 2: military arts and in painting. So even if you look online, 295 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 2: if you google Crown Prince Hudo's artwork, like you see 296 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 2: this beautiful, stunning illustration of a dog. But the king 297 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: totally looked down on this, and he thought his son 298 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 2: was pampered and frivolous. And most of the arguments stemmed 299 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: from the prince's poor marks, and so in the memoirs 300 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: you see these really sad instances of even on the 301 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: crown Prince's birthday, the father would have the son join 302 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 2: this basically assembly filled with officials and scholars, and he'd 303 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: start quizzing the son and he'd be like, explain this 304 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 2: Confucian text and explicate it, and the Crown Prince would 305 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 2: be stammering because he's afraid. And the father would always 306 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 2: rebuke the son for being like, why are you talking 307 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 2: so slowly? And it's because he's afraid. He's like, oh 308 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 2: my gosh, I might say something wrong, And so the 309 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 2: father would rebuke the son in front of everybody, humiliate 310 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 2: him totally. He thought his son was not smart enough 311 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: to be the king. East Asia was very focused on 312 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 2: virtue being tied to the king and how virtue is 313 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 2: created from studying. That was like that Confucian mentality. The 314 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 2: idea of a virtuous king, a well studied king was 315 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 2: very central in this period to what would make a 316 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 2: good king rather than you know, power itself. Another thing 317 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 2: was King yung Jo when he became king. There were 318 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,840 Speaker 2: rumors that he became king by poisoning his own brother. 319 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 1: Wait where did that come from? Really? 320 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there were rumors that King Yong Joe gave 321 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 2: his brother soycrab or something and that poisoned him. But 322 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 2: it's just speculation and people say that it's probably not true, 323 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 2: but that's the rumor he grew up with. And so 324 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 2: there was this terror in the king that people would 325 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:47,920 Speaker 2: not see him as good enough. And so I think 326 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 2: that kind of solidified in the king, this need to 327 00:17:50,640 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: prove that he was a worthy and benevolent and good king. 328 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 2: And so because of that, I think he was super 329 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 2: harsh on his son, who wasn't really up to par 330 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 2: with him, who didn't study as hard, didn't try to 331 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: be as virtuous. Yeah, there was a lot of hagog 332 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: from the king that he just projected everything on his son. 333 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: So i'll summarize also with a little bit I know. 334 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: So we have a very insecure and powerful king who 335 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 1: is prone to abuse and perhaps violence. We have an 336 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: absent queen. We have a young man who is becoming 337 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 1: more erratic as he grows older, more insecure, is being abused. 338 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: He's married. But boy, what I read was that she 339 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: was not particularly interested in marrying into this family. And 340 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: now pretty soon we're going to all find out why 341 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:40,360 Speaker 1: is that the impression you got from her memoirs that 342 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,480 Speaker 1: she was very intelligent and came from some interesting lineage. 343 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: She was very smart and had no interest in this 344 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: family and just felt like she had to do it. 345 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,439 Speaker 2: So that is a fact. So Lady Hagen's mom actually 346 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 2: didn't want to submit her daughter as a candidate to 347 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 2: be selected for the crown Prince's wife. The father did 348 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: it anyways, And so you have this scene of the 349 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: daughter sleeping in between her mom and dad, and she's 350 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 2: just bawling because she doesn't want to leave her parents, 351 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 2: but she's forced into the palace. And not a lot 352 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 2: of people back then wanted to have that palace life 353 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 2: because it's very restrictive. You can't just leave the palace 354 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 2: whenever you want it as a palace woman or as 355 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: the wife of one of the royals, and so yeah, 356 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: she did not want to enter the palace life, but 357 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: she did and she got married without knowing what would 358 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:38,919 Speaker 2: happen down the road. 359 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: So they have children together. This culminates when he is 360 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: twenty seven. They're both twenty seven. I think both husband 361 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: and wife are twenty seven when some of the starts 362 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: to happen. They have a few children, and life goes on. 363 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: He continues to not do well under his father's father 364 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 1: is getting older and becoming more abusive. When do things 365 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: take a turn in the palace that are violent? Right now, 366 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: it's abusive, and I know the king is physically abusing servants, 367 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 1: which is no surprise. When do either of these men 368 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: become violent? 369 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 2: So the violence begins on the part of the crown prince. 370 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 2: In seventeen fifty seven, the first murder that's recorded occurs 371 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:30,479 Speaker 2: when Crown Prince Haddo kills his eunuch, basically decapitates the eunuch, 372 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 2: and he takes the head and he shows it to 373 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: his wife. 374 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,800 Speaker 1: Okay, go back, explain first of all what a eunuch is. 375 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: So eunuchs were men who were castrated, and they were 376 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: the only men allowed in the palace. Overnight visits the 377 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 2: idea that all palace women belong to the king, and 378 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 2: they don't want men who are capable of seducing the 379 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,280 Speaker 2: king's women. That's one reason why eunis became palace attendants, 380 00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 2: and so that they're basically servants. I didn't see any 381 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: explanation for why Crown Prince Huddle killed this eunuch, but 382 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 2: he was killed and the head was shown to his wife. 383 00:21:06,560 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 2: That was the first recorded instance of the prince killing 384 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: someone in the palace. 385 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: Now you must tell me from the memoirs, what does 386 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: the crown Prince's wife, what is her reaction to being 387 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: shown the head of one of the servants. 388 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 2: She doesn't dive too deep on her response. All I 389 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 2: read was she just kind of escaped that scene, and 390 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 2: then they just kind of move along to the next incident. 391 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: So the first major incident happens in seventeen fifty seven 392 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: where he kills the servant, chops his head off, and 393 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: presents it to his wife. And this is just blown over. 394 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: Do you know if the king know about this, he 395 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:42,119 Speaker 1: must have known about it. I assume I. 396 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: Didn't even know how to respond to this passage in 397 00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 2: the book. So I was reading and I remember just 398 00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:50,199 Speaker 2: highlighting because I'm like what, I couldn't just wrap my 399 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:52,360 Speaker 2: mind around it. So you would assume the King would 400 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 2: follow his trend of being like, what, my son is 401 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 2: not virtuous, like you are horrible? But the King's response 402 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: when he found out was, and I actually even wrote 403 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 2: it down, the King tends to be exacting and difficult 404 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 2: on small matters, but on large matters of gravity he 405 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: is surprisingly calm. Thus, when he heard the prince had 406 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:14,160 Speaker 2: killed many people because he was hurt quote unquote hurt, 407 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: he responded rather sympathetically and even consoled his son, like. 408 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: What what does hurt mean? Do you know? 409 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 2: So from what I read, the prince was basically like, 410 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 2: you hurt me. You were very basically emotionally abusive to me, 411 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,479 Speaker 2: and so he hurt others because of his pent up anger. 412 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,200 Speaker 2: That was the gist I got from that word hurt. 413 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,199 Speaker 1: So there's a murdered servant that has been obviously covered up. 414 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: What happens next? That was seventeen fifty seven, and we're 415 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: still five years away from this retribution that is leveled 416 00:22:47,640 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: against the prince, what happens next with the prince after that? 417 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 2: So the eunuch was the first murder, And then I 418 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: read about how basically he would go on a killing 419 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: spree within the palace, like I think even there were 420 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: people murdered because of his clothing incident, like if he 421 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 2: didn't like what he wore, he'd kill his attendants. Sometimes 422 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 2: he would sneak out of the palace and random people 423 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: would die as well. There weren't too much details of 424 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,680 Speaker 2: who he murdered, but just that bodies ended up showing up. 425 00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: But the next more detailed account of the person he 426 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 2: killed was actually his concubine. Her name was Pingue, and 427 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 2: from what I read, he really loved her and he 428 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: made her his concubine, despite the king being like, no, 429 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: you cannot make this girl your concubine, but he's like, 430 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 2: I really love her, she's mine, and they became a bear. 431 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 2: But then one day I think he had a fight 432 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,920 Speaker 2: with his father, he just went and beat the girl 433 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 2: up until she died. There was a mentioned about how 434 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 2: he didn't even know he'd killed her, so he went 435 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,040 Speaker 2: on like acting like nothing had happened, and it didn't 436 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 2: hit him that his favorite concubine was dead, and I 437 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 2: think it just shows what kind of state he was 438 00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: in because I remember even reading that Lady Higgen, his 439 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 2: wife was pregnant, and I think his child died and 440 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: it didn't hit him either, Like he seemed like kind 441 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 2: of untethered and not aware of his surrounding and the 442 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: violence he was causing or the pain that was inflicted 443 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 2: on him. He was just like in a state of 444 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 2: numbness or something. 445 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: Okay, so people are showing up dead, the more stress 446 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 1: that his father puts on him, and then whatever mental 447 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: illness he might be suffering from or something, it's coming 448 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: out in violence. When does the king start to become 449 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: alarmed because the king's wife, who is the crown Prince's mother, 450 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,840 Speaker 1: is dying at some point that incident, from what I read, 451 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: seems to be a big trigger for both the king 452 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: and the crown Prince. 453 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 2: So there's that growing pressure on the prince like mentally, 454 00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: and the king is very dissatisfied with his son, and 455 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 2: the king is also under pressure. There's this men about 456 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,320 Speaker 2: how the crown prince whenever the father is meeting with 457 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,439 Speaker 2: his advisors, the crown Prince mentions that the father is 458 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: probably criticizing the son, and the king is basically trying 459 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 2: to figure out, how do I get rid of my son? 460 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 2: Because now he has someone next in line for the throne, 461 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 2: which is the crown Prince's son. Now, so the king's 462 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,200 Speaker 2: grandson now is next in line for the throne. King 463 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 2: Yong Joe doats on his grandson. He actually compares his 464 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 2: grandson to his own son. So he'll tell conference, how like, 465 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 2: your son is better at studying than you are. And 466 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 2: so now that he has a successor, he's starting to wonder, 467 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,359 Speaker 2: like what do I do with the crown Prince? And 468 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 2: back then the rule was you're not allowed to harm 469 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:50,120 Speaker 2: a royal person. And to complicate things, if the king 470 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,360 Speaker 2: were to execute his son. In Korea, they had this 471 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: idea of communal punishment, So to execute his son would 472 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 2: make the crown prince's own son a criminal, and so 473 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: he couldn't do that too. And so each time the 474 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,439 Speaker 2: king is meeting with advisors, they're trying to figure out, like, 475 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 2: how do we get rid of the crown Prince. And 476 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,639 Speaker 2: it gets to a point towards seventeen sixty two where 477 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 2: just for fun, the Crown Prince builds this mound, and 478 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 2: inside he stores all his military weapons just for fun, 479 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 2: according to the theories, and he has no intention of 480 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: killing his father. But rumors start to spread that the 481 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 2: Crown Prince is going to commit patricide, and that kind 482 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: of triggers the Crown Prince's mother into telling the king, like, 483 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 2: you should probably get rid of our son before he 484 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 2: kills you. That's how we get to the point where 485 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 2: the king decides he really needs to find a way 486 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 2: to get rid of his son. 487 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:47,680 Speaker 1: What's confusing to me is if the Crown Princess killed 488 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 1: all of these other people, servants and all of that, 489 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: is there no way where you can just imprison him 490 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: or send him to an asylum or put him in 491 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,440 Speaker 1: a dungeon and have him disappear, or would people find 492 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: out and that would break some sort of rule within 493 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,240 Speaker 1: the royal family. It just seems like this guy has 494 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: been so violent there has to be something that could 495 00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 1: have been done. 496 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think they just had to make sure that 497 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: no matter what they did, they couldn't tartish the successor's reputation. 498 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:20,159 Speaker 2: And back then, because that idea of communal punishment was 499 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 2: so ingrained in the people, they can do nothing to 500 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 2: make the Crown Prince look like a criminal in any way. 501 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,800 Speaker 2: And I think also like there was no sense of 502 00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 2: like mental health awareness as well, and so there was 503 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 2: no way to get around the idea of the Crown 504 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: Prince being like evil and worthy of punishment. When I 505 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 2: think about it, I don't know why it was so complicated, 506 00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 2: but I guess it's because I don't have that mindset 507 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 2: from someone like hundreds of years ago. Like I can't 508 00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 2: imagine why they couldn't think outside of that rule that 509 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:52,320 Speaker 2: you can't harm the body of a royal person. That 510 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 2: was the rule, and it seems they had to play 511 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 2: within that boundary. 512 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 1: So now we're in the summer of seventeen sixty two 513 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 1: and the Crown Prince has killed people and has terrorized people, 514 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: and his deteriorating with his mental health, and there is 515 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: an incident that happens that enrages the Crown Prince and 516 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: really seems to trigger everything that happens after that. Tell 517 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: me what happens between the Crown Prince and an official 518 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: at the court, that just is a trigger for a 519 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: lot of things. 520 00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:29,120 Speaker 2: So Crown Prince Huddo gets super enraged by the official 521 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 2: son and he says he wants to seek revenge, and 522 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: he attempts to sneak through a water passage to the 523 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 2: Upper Palace to kill this official son, and he fails 524 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 2: to do that. So instead what he does is he 525 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,560 Speaker 2: just takes the official son's clothing and items. And then 526 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 2: from this incident, rumor starts spreading that the Crown Prince 527 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 2: is trying to enter the Upper Palace to kill King Yongjo, 528 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: and that spreads through the court. So from this incident 529 00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: with the official son, it triggers this rumor that you know, 530 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 2: he's going to commit treason. So this is when the 531 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 2: Crown Prince, Huddle's mom begs King Yongjo too, just execute 532 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 2: her son. This is where the nickname of the Crown 533 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 2: Prince being the Prince in the rice Chest comes from, 534 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 2: because King Yongjo orders Huddle to step into a wooden 535 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: rice chest. 536 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 1: And this is small. It's four square feet. I mean 537 00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: that is not super tiny, that is not big yeh. 538 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 1: So he's forced into this chest. 539 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 2: So in order to fit into it, like you have 540 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: to crouch your head towards your torso your legs have 541 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: to be shoved up against your chest. It's super small. 542 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 2: You can't relax in there. He didn't go in willingly. 543 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: He begged for his life, and he tried to climb 544 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,360 Speaker 2: out again and again they forced him back in, and 545 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 2: up until the seventh day, Like if you were there, 546 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 2: you'd probably hear him trying it for help, up until 547 00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: the day of his death. 548 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: Was his wife there? Do you know she was in the. 549 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,960 Speaker 2: Palace, so I assume she probably did hear him. 550 00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,600 Speaker 1: Do we have any idea how long this whole process, 551 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: which is just terrible to even think about how long 552 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: this whole process took. 553 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 2: He was pronounced dead on the eighth day, but it 554 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 2: took seven days, So. 555 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: No water, no food for seven days, crying, screaming, defecating 556 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: on himself, all of that just terrible. I think it's 557 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 1: important to have those details to just understand what torture 558 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: this would have been. I mean, that's unreal. 559 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so he was placed in their seven days. He 560 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,479 Speaker 2: died officially from starvation. It's just horrific trying to imagine it. 561 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 2: And if you go to the palace in Korea, they 562 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: actually have a sample of a rice chest on display, 563 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 2: and you know you'll see photos of people like trying 564 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,640 Speaker 2: to crash into it to fit into it. But it's 565 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: super horrific. And yeah, he was just like roped into 566 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,480 Speaker 2: it to be sealed within. He was also covered with grass. 567 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 2: I think maybe the grass part was to kind of 568 00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 2: muffle the. 569 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 1: Sound because he was making noise. Yeah, so he is 570 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,200 Speaker 1: and this just sounds so terrifying to me. He is 571 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: forced into this rice chest, it's law, and he is 572 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,120 Speaker 1: left in there, and this is all under the orders 573 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: of the king. The king is not there, and eventually 574 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: he dies of dehydration, starvation and all of that. One 575 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: thing that I thought, besides this just being an incredible tragedy, 576 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: because you know, you have this imperfect victim, obviously, somebody 577 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: who has been killing people at whim and who was 578 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 1: very violent but clearly was suffering under an abusive father. 579 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 1: Clearly was suffering under some kind of mental illness or something, 580 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: all of it exasperated by being in a situation that 581 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 1: is so stressful, as in being in this royal family. 582 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: You know, now that his life has ended, does his son, 583 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: you know, become the successor? Is he become king eventually? 584 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 2: When it came to the son, the conference's son, I 585 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: think that is where a lot of the tragedy stems 586 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 2: from because the king basically put down a bound saying 587 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,680 Speaker 2: no one is allowed to talk about the Crown Prince. 588 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 2: So the conference's name was actually on Prince Changan during 589 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 2: his lifetime, and then after his death, his posthumous title 590 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 2: was Crown Prince Hado, and Sado actually means thinking of 591 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: with great sorrow, so that name is just like, oh 592 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 2: my gosh, it's really sad. And that's the title that 593 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 2: the king gives to the son that he killed, and 594 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: no mention is allowed. No one is allowed to talk 595 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: about the Crown Prince and the son the king's grandson 596 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 2: in order to kind of avoid this whole scandal, So 597 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: there was a father was killed in a race chest 598 00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: so that is one way of avoiding it. But to 599 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:38,959 Speaker 2: kind of disconnect him entirely from this entire situation, he 600 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: gets adopted by another royal, so he's taken away from 601 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 2: his mom's lineage and made the son of another royal, 602 00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 2: and so he grows up not being able to talk 603 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 2: about his father for the rest of King Yongjo's reign 604 00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 2: and when the son becomes king and his title is 605 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 2: King Chungjo when he ascends the throne, saying because the 606 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: first thing he says when he sends his throne is 607 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 2: I am the son of Crown Prince Huddle. So it 608 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 2: kind of shows us how much pain he was bottling 609 00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 2: in throughout the reign of his grandfather. And so yeah, 610 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,120 Speaker 2: when he becomes king, he says, I'm the son of 611 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,440 Speaker 2: Crown Prince Huddo. And he actually builds an entire fort. 612 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 2: It's called the pis Home Fort in Suan, and he 613 00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: builds an entire fort around his father's grave. And I 614 00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 2: think the son actually had a deep love for his father. 615 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 2: I'm seeing how much he did for him. When we 616 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:35,760 Speaker 2: study the life of King chong Zo, you see he 617 00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: was also very deeply traumatized by what went on between 618 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 2: King Yongzho and Crown Prince Huddle. 619 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: And I want to go back because I think this 620 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: is an important point. So the Crown Prince when he died, 621 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: I'm not quite understanding the rule here, but his wife 622 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,560 Speaker 1: was expected to take her own life after that, if 623 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,160 Speaker 1: he had been murdered or if he had taken his 624 00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: own life, she would then take her own life. But 625 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,720 Speaker 1: the king liked her so much that he got her 626 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 1: out of it. Is that what your understanding is is 627 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: it because being killed was a disgrace and the wife 628 00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: needed to follow suit. 629 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 2: It's not so much the king expected it of her, 630 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 2: but the tradition during the Chosun period was when your 631 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 2: husband dies, it's considered noble of a wife to follow 632 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 2: the husband in death. That is like the ultimate obedience 633 00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 2: that was seen as something to be praised. 634 00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:28,680 Speaker 1: What I know. 635 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: Is that King Yongjo really adored the Crown Prince's wife. 636 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 2: So because of that affectionate relationship between the father in 637 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,840 Speaker 2: law and the Crown Prince's wife, she escaped the punishment 638 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: and she was allowed to live. I remember just reading constantly, 639 00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: like even the Crown Prince HDDO would mention, Yeah, the 640 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: king adores you, but he doesn't like me. I'm going 641 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 2: to die, but he fevers you. So he'd always emphasize 642 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,439 Speaker 2: that to his own wife as well. 643 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: Do you get an impression from her about what life 644 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,520 Speaker 1: must have been like with him while he was alive, 645 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: with all of this killing and beating to death a concubine, 646 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,319 Speaker 1: and it must have just been pure hell for her. 647 00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, she was very stressed, so she'd always get super anxious, 648 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 2: super terrified whenever the Crown Prince and the father got 649 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 2: into arguments, because the arguments would get really bad, and 650 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 2: she'd always be afraid of what would happen to her 651 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 2: husband and to her own son, And so I think 652 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:29,320 Speaker 2: there was a lot of just anxiety built up because 653 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 2: the fate of her son and her own life depends 654 00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: on how the relationship goes between her husband and the king. 655 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:39,200 Speaker 2: I imagine a lot of stress. 656 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,360 Speaker 1: What is her mark on this in history as someone 657 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: who obviously is the historian of the family, the person 658 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: who has written all of this history down, is that 659 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: what she is known for? A survivor in all of this. 660 00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: Yes, a survivor, and it was very rare during that 661 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:02,319 Speaker 2: time for women to even write books, and hers is 662 00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 2: almost the most thorough and accessible account of the Crown 663 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 2: Prince's life. So the other account would be court records. 664 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 2: It's just court records and her book. Without her book, 665 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: I'm sure we would get a very different account of 666 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: the Crown Prince's life when it's just based through the 667 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 2: court documents. 668 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: What were the themes that you took from those memoirs 669 00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: and the story for your book, which is fiction, it's 670 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: a novel. 671 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 2: So for me, it was the idea of power dynamics 672 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,399 Speaker 2: because you see the Crown Prince going on as murder 673 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 2: spreeze and the King basically shrugs it off, and what 674 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: concerns him more is his son's academic And so that 675 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: was really fascinating to me, the idea of how power 676 00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 2: really skews the notion of what is right and wrong. 677 00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 2: For me, the central theme was actually the relationship between 678 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 2: a child and a parent figure, and I tried to 679 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 2: kind of parallel the very toxic relationship between the Crown 680 00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 2: Prince and the king with the heroine because I didn't 681 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,880 Speaker 2: really want to dive too deep into the Crown Prince's 682 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 2: life in my book, because you know, he had a 683 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 2: lot of mental health problems and I didn't think I 684 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 2: had the ability to portray it with justice, and so 685 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: I kind of took what I learned from the dynamic 686 00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,360 Speaker 2: between the father and son and I projected it into 687 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 2: the relationship between my heroine and her own father. A 688 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 2: lot of times that pressure parents put on children, it 689 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 2: could just lead them to snapping, and I wanted to 690 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,240 Speaker 2: explore that toxicity as well. 691 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: I think that's really interesting how you can take that inspiration, 692 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: and I think you're right, you know, we just started 693 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: this conversation saying that you can take these stories from 694 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: history and translate them to themes that we can all relate. 695 00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 1: To write that relationship, a fracture relationship between a parent 696 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: and a child. I had read that the king had 697 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: made an epitaph tablet essentially, you know, it was for 698 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: the son, and it essentially said I'm sorry that this happened, 699 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,479 Speaker 1: but it was his fault. And that just, I think 700 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 1: is the underlying complication of this story, which is that 701 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: that complicated relationship mixed with just the violence and what 702 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,759 Speaker 1: do you do when you're desperate and yet you are 703 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,959 Speaker 1: the problem? The king was part of the problem. So boy, 704 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: what a complicated story. What a great inspiration for you 705 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: to work off of. 706 00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 2: I had a lot of tension and drama to work 707 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:29,040 Speaker 2: into my story. 708 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,720 Speaker 1: Did your parents get a chance to read your book 709 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,480 Speaker 1: where they pleased that you were pulling information from your 710 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: culture and finally steering away a little bit from the 711 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 1: British Isles and more towards you know, your own history. 712 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:45,399 Speaker 2: It's funny because my parents were like, well, why would 713 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 2: you write about Korea? That was their initial response. 714 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:49,280 Speaker 1: What really? 715 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why. I think because they moved 716 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,879 Speaker 2: to the West End. They went to the assumption like, oh, 717 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 2: why would western readers want to read about Korea. They 718 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 2: had a very old school mindset, and so when I 719 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:03,759 Speaker 2: told them an is shit, they're like huh. But then 720 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 2: now my mom is like my number one fan, and 721 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:09,720 Speaker 2: she's like, oh, you made me more patriotic to our country. 722 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,600 Speaker 2: You made me appreciate green history more. And so yeah, like, 723 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: my mom has read my book twice already, and I'm like, 724 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,160 Speaker 2: oh my gosh, it's pretty gory, but I guess she's 725 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 2: okay with it. 726 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:24,399 Speaker 1: Well. I think that's one of our jobs when you're 727 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:28,440 Speaker 1: writing about either historical fiction or historical nonfiction, is to 728 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: get people to care, you know, to talk about the 729 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,040 Speaker 1: people and why they mattered, and how you can see 730 00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: those sorts of personalities now and how they're treated now 731 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,759 Speaker 1: versus how they're treated then, and such an appreciation for 732 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,799 Speaker 1: you know, relationships that are positive in your life. So 733 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: what a tragedy all the way around, but a really 734 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,279 Speaker 1: interesting part of Korean history. Thanks for bringing it to me. 735 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 2: Thank you for your interest in it. 736 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,799 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the 737 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club All that 738 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:11,480 Speaker 1: is Wicked and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly 739 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,640 Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis a Morosi. Our 740 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: associate producer is Alex Chi. This episode was mixed by 741 00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 1: John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. 742 00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:28,800 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. 743 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,839 Speaker 1: Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more 744 00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,920 Speaker 1: Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. And if you 745 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,200 Speaker 1: know of a historical crime that could use some attention 746 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at 747 00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: info at Tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions 748 00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: for true crime authors for Wicked Words