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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

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Speaker 2: Will there ever be justice for Abby and Libby?

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Speaker 3: The two beautiful little girls that were slaughtered in Delphi

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Speaker 3: with a pharmacy tech behind bars awaiting trial.

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Speaker 2: In the last days, wild.

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Speaker 3: Rumors have surfaced that one of the girls was decapitated

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Speaker 3: or near decapitated. Another rumor that the wrong guys behind

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Speaker 3: bars and the real killer is walking free. Yeah, they

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Speaker 3: said that about O. J. Simpson too, didn't they? And

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Speaker 3: Scott Peterson and Robert Blake Gosh, I could go on

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Speaker 3: and on about the real killers that are walking free.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 3: and on Serious XM one eleven. Let's talk about the

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Speaker 3: truth as the trial approaches. What is the truth about

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Speaker 3: the murders of these two beautiful little girls? Joining me

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Speaker 3: an all star panel to make sense of what we

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Speaker 3: know right now.

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Speaker 2: But first I want to go to Barbara.

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Speaker 3: McDonald joining us COURTV documentary producer and co host of

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Speaker 3: Down the Heel podcast. Barbara McDonald, thank you for being

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Speaker 3: with us along with her Susan Hendrix, journalist and author

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Speaker 3: of Down the Hill, My Descent into the.

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Speaker 2: Double murder in Delphi.

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Speaker 3: My former colleague at h Barbara Susan, thank you for

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Speaker 3: being with us. First of all, Barbara, in all of

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Speaker 3: your research, in everything you have discovered in your Down

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Speaker 3: the Hill podcast, have you ever heard anything about one

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Speaker 3: of these two little girls, Libby or Abby, being decapitated.

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Speaker 4: No, not to that extent. I've heard near decapitation, but

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Speaker 4: that was very early on in the investigation, and I

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Speaker 4: think it largely came from those text messages that are

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Speaker 4: attributed to Abby's step uncle or half uncle, David Erskine,

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Speaker 4: who claims in those text messages, if they're legitimate, that

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Speaker 4: he was one of the volunteers to have found the bodies,

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Speaker 4: and he recounted some of the things that he claimed

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Speaker 4: existed at the crime scene. And with regard to the girls,

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Speaker 4: I know that there's a lot of information contained in

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Speaker 4: those messages that is not accurate, and that's one of them.

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Speaker 3: What information would our skin have written or texted that

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Speaker 3: would suggest one of the girls was decapitated or near decapitator.

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Speaker 4: Well, we do know from the defense filings that the

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Speaker 4: girls had fatal injuries to their necks that were caused

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Speaker 4: by some sort of an edged weapon, and it's possible

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Speaker 4: that a volunteer who came upon that scene might have

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Speaker 4: thought it looked perhaps different than it actually was, But

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Speaker 4: my understanding is that both girls were completely intact.

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Speaker 3: New rumors are swirling to Cheryl McCollum, my longtime friend

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Speaker 3: and colleague, forensic expert, founder, director of the Cold Case

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Speaker 3: Research Institute, and star of Zone seventh Hit podcast, Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 3: I don't understand how it benefits anyone to keep on

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Speaker 3: gossip about these two little girls, gossip like.

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Speaker 2: The real killer as someone else.

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Speaker 3: The real killer is walking free, that Libby was near

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Speaker 3: beheaded quote out of rage.

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Speaker 5: Why Nancy, You and I both know there's a big

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Speaker 5: difference between verified information and potentially harmful speculation and rumor.

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Speaker 5: You have to ask yourself, how does this benefit the

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Speaker 5: family of these girls, How does this benefit law enforcement?

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Speaker 5: How does this benefit the prosecution? And the answer down

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Speaker 5: the line is it doesn't not at all. So to me,

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Speaker 5: this can only be just reduced to almost a carnival barker.

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Speaker 5: You're just trying to get hits and lights and people

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Speaker 5: to watch what you're doing, That's all this is. And

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Speaker 5: when you're relying on people that we never heard from

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Speaker 5: you're relying on people that are ex'es or somewhere on

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Speaker 5: the perimeter that they've kept this knowledge.

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Speaker 3: Well, hold on, I know where you're headed Without Cheryl McCollum,

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Speaker 3: The very wild Delphi murder theory has now reared its

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Speaker 3: ugly head again. An ex girlfriend ex girlfriend of a

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Speaker 3: former person of interest Ron Logan, insists that he Logan

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Speaker 3: is the real killer, not the pharmacy tap behind bars

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Speaker 3: who has admitted to the murders, who had the gun,

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Speaker 3: whose bullet was found at the scene between the two

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Speaker 3: dead bodies, and it's cycled through his gun used as a.

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Speaker 2: Scare technique on the girls. You know how somebody like

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Speaker 2: in the movies cocks the gun and twists the barrel.

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Speaker 3: That's what he did, and one of those bullets fell

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Speaker 3: out of his gun and his demonstrations to the two victims.

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Speaker 3: Long story short, that bullet matches the gun at the

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Speaker 3: defendant's home. That is incredibly probative, proves something. But that said,

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Speaker 3: I want you to hear cut one three four, Jackie.

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Speaker 3: I want you to hear our friend Rachel Benia from

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Speaker 3: Crime Online.

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Speaker 6: Connie Dilman is the ex girlfriend of Ron Logan. She

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Speaker 6: claims they met in a bar and hit it off

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Speaker 6: over their love of horses and the outdoors. Their six

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Speaker 6: year relationship had come to an end by the time

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Speaker 6: of the Delphi murders, and Dilman believes ron Logan is

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Speaker 6: the killer. She says the voice on the tape saying

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Speaker 6: down the Hill is absolutely him. She also claims that

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Speaker 6: Logan was violent and when she refused him sex one night,

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Speaker 6: he hit her with a wrench, causing seven stitches. Dilman

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Speaker 6: has yet to say why she waited until now to

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Speaker 6: speak up. Ron Logan died in twenty twenty two of

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Speaker 6: COVID nineteen.

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Speaker 3: You know to you Kim Dunlap joining us a reporter

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Speaker 3: from Cocobo Tribune, and Kim, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: Why was Logan a poy personal interest to start with,

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Speaker 3: other than the bodies were found on his property?

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Speaker 7: You know, I feel like, at one point, especially early on,

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Speaker 7: everyone you know that that matched the sketch was potentially

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Speaker 7: the suspect. And I feel like Ron Logan, to a

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Speaker 7: lot of people, matched that first sketch. Now there was

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Speaker 7: the second sketch that came out looked a lot different

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Speaker 7: than the first one, But I feel like a lot

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Speaker 7: of it was just because this is his property. He

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Speaker 7: you know, he went on I think a couple you know,

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Speaker 7: talk shows or a couple you know, media outlets back

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Speaker 7: then and kind of talked about the case in the beginning.

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Speaker 7: But you know, you kind of talked to the people

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Speaker 7: in town, you know, at the time, and he had

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Speaker 7: a search warrant at his house and you kind of

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Speaker 7: talked to people at the time and oh, we got him,

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Speaker 7: we got him, you know, we got Ron Logan, this

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Speaker 7: is the guy. And then it sort of went away.

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Speaker 7: You know, it came back a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 7: But I mean, really, I think it was just the

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Speaker 7: nature of the beast back then that if you went

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Speaker 7: public with any information about Delphi, that you were just

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Speaker 7: you know, automatically, especially if you look like that sketch,

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Speaker 7: you fit that person. You were them, You were that person,

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Speaker 7: You were the bridge guy.

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Speaker 3: So why was Ron Logan a person of interest at

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Speaker 3: the beginning of this investigation and why have new rumors

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Speaker 3: resurfaced now?

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Speaker 2: Listen Sidney Sumner from Crime Stories.

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Speaker 8: Ron Logan was a person of interest when Libby Jermyan

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Speaker 8: and Abby Williams were murdered. Their bodies were found on

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Speaker 8: his property, his house, only fourteen hundred feet from where

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Speaker 8: the girls were discovered. Logan matched the appearance of the

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Speaker 8: man in the blue jacket walking on the bridge that

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Speaker 8: was captured in snapchat footage taken by the girls just

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Speaker 8: before they disappeared. The girls took a video where a

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Speaker 8: heavy set man in a blue jacket is heard saying

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Speaker 8: down the hill. Investigators have long believed the voice on

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Speaker 8: the film belongs to someone who took part in the

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Speaker 8: murders or did it by himself. Ron Logan was questioned

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Speaker 8: by detectives at length. They sweated him in jail over

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Speaker 8: a probation violation, but when his alibi checked out, police

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Speaker 8: let him go and moved on to other potential suspects.

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Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 3: Let me ask this, Cheryl McCollum joining us from Zoe seven.

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Speaker 2: Cheryl, why now, why.

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Speaker 3: Is this re emerging now closed by an ex girlfriend

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Speaker 3: that Ron Logan is the killer, not the perp sitting

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Speaker 3: behind bars who has confessed.

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Speaker 5: Apparently she has come out and said, that's his voice,

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Speaker 5: that's him on the bridge. I knew it when they

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Speaker 5: first released it. And then she goes on to say

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Speaker 5: that she called the tip line to even report it.

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Speaker 5: But I don't know where in the last seven years

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Speaker 5: she's been. I don't know how forceful she was with

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Speaker 5: her understanding and determination that this was in fact Ron Logan.

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Speaker 4: He hasn't been forceful, but she has been talking. She has.

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Speaker 4: I first met her in twenty twenty one and heard

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Speaker 4: her story, and then after she and I spoke, she

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Speaker 4: did start participating in some of the Facebook groups and

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Speaker 4: commenting online with a bit of her story.

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Speaker 3: White white, white, white white, Barbara McDonald, I'm all about

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Speaker 3: people participating in Facebook groups, But did she go to

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Speaker 3: police at the time she heard Down the Hill and

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Speaker 3: say that is love?

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Speaker 4: She told me in twenty twenty one that she did

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Speaker 4: in fact do that, and that she did in fact

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Speaker 4: have an interview with the FBI around that time.

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Speaker 3: And at that juncture, let me go to Susan Hendrick's

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Speaker 3: joining journalist and author of Down the Hill, my descended

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Speaker 3: to the double murder in Delphi.

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Speaker 2: Susan, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 3: If she spoke to detectives in twenty twenty one and

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Speaker 3: they followed up, they actually held Logan, questioned him and

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Speaker 3: investigated him and let him go. What more can you

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Speaker 3: tell us, Susan Hendricks.

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Speaker 9: Thanks for having me, Nancy, it's great to be on.

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Speaker 9: And there were other names mentioned throughout this long period

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Speaker 9: of time, close to six years before anyone was in custody,

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Speaker 9: Daniel Nations, Paul Ederging, Shadwell, Keeping Klein, Tony Klein, and

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Speaker 9: of course Ron Logan, who were discussing. And I did

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Speaker 9: see the sound from his ex girlfriend and I felt

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Speaker 9: for her, but I believe it's confirmation biased she sees

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Speaker 9: what she wants to see. What was telling to me

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Speaker 9: was that there were never any charges against Ron Logan.

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Speaker 9: Two searches of his property too in March twenty seventeen,

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Speaker 9: and he was never arrested or charged with the crime.

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Speaker 9: So that was telling to me. And you spoke of

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Speaker 9: kind of the craziness going on around this, and I

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Speaker 9: told Becky this morning, I sent her a text that

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Speaker 9: I was going to be on your show, and she said,

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Speaker 9: there's so much craziness right now that if you talked

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Speaker 9: about that, you'd be on the show for hours. So

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Speaker 9: there is a gag order. They take it seriously, but

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Speaker 9: they're very aware of all of this chaos going on,

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Speaker 9: and it's certainly not helping me all I want.

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Speaker 3: To circle back Cheryl McCollum to her coming forward and climbing.

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Speaker 3: That's my ex boyfriend right there, the one that beat me.

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Speaker 3: The offense if I'm wrong, correct me if I am

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Speaker 3: was February thirteen, two thy seventeen, and she goes forward

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Speaker 3: claiming as her ex boyfriend in twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: No, she went forward in twenty seventeen. It was short.

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Speaker 4: It was within days or a week or two.

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Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I thought you said twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, no, I spoke to her in twenty

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Speaker 4: twenty one and she told me her story. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: she did speak to the FBI back in the very

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Speaker 4: early days of the investigation when the FBI was very

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Speaker 4: active involved in that investigation. And I just wanted to

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Speaker 4: correct one other thing. That taped piece you played said

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Speaker 4: that his alibi checked out. Ron Logan's alibi did not

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Speaker 4: check out, and that is one of the things that

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Speaker 4: I think gives some wiggle room here and a big

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Speaker 4: question mark on him, is he does not have an alibi.

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Speaker 4: According to cell tower data, his phone was at his

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Speaker 4: property at two nine pm. We know from the video

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Speaker 4: that Libby took on her phone that the girls were

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Speaker 4: approached on the bridge at two thirteen. Ron had claimed

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Speaker 4: for many years that he was on surveillance video at

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Speaker 4: this tropical fish store in Lafayette, some thirty minutes away,

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Speaker 4: but that store didn't have surveillance video, so there is

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Speaker 4: no proof that he was elsewhere. His phone puts him

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Speaker 4: near his property. That does not mean that he's the

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Speaker 4: killer of the girls, but his alibi does not check out.

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Speaker 3: Cheryl McCollum was his alibi confirmed by people that worked

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Speaker 3: at the store.

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Speaker 5: My memory is he had a receipt, but the time

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Speaker 5: still gave him enough room that he could have gone

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Speaker 5: to the store and back in the period of time

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Speaker 5: that the girls went missing and were been killed. But

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Speaker 5: I want to point out something. In the seven years

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Speaker 5: that this has been investigated and been highlighted, law enforcement,

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Speaker 5: the volunteer searchers, and the family have not leaked information

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Speaker 5: to the general public. There was so much we never knew.

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Speaker 5: We never knew how they were murdered, We never knew

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Speaker 5: exactly how they were found clothed or unclothed. Nobody violated that,

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Speaker 5: so I am again questioning the timing of somebody that

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Speaker 5: will to come in and violate it. Now so close

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Speaker 5: to trial this coming October.

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Speaker 3: What are you talking about, Cheryl, Don't be mysterious. Who

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Speaker 3: do you believe has violated a gag order?

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Speaker 5: What I'm saying is, I'm not trying to be mysterious.

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Speaker 5: I'm trying to be straight out with it. All of

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Speaker 5: these people have kept information. How are paper that's never

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Speaker 5: been what?

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Speaker 2: Who do you believe has violated a gag order?

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Speaker 5: I don't know that they violated a gag order because

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Speaker 5: I think they're on the perimeter of it. The girlfriend's

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Speaker 5: not under a gag order. These cousins or aunts and

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Speaker 5: whatnot or not under a gag order. My point is,

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Speaker 5: I don't know why they would at this point try

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Speaker 5: to say things this close to trial that are only

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Speaker 5: for shock value.

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Speaker 3: Are you talking about so called documentaries that claim the

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Speaker 3: girls are decapitated or near decapitated and claims the wrong

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Speaker 3: person is and claims the wrong person is behind bars

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Speaker 3: and that the real killer is Ron Logan?

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Speaker 2: Claims like that, of course, one hundred percent, Cheryl.

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Speaker 3: Speaking of what is true and that we know you

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Speaker 3: obtained information about how.

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Speaker 2: Is the best way to put it.

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Speaker 3: How the girls were buried, how were they clothed for burial.

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Speaker 2: What can you tell us?

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Speaker 5: I know that they had scarves around their necks, and

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Speaker 5: I think there's at least two other people on this

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Speaker 5: panel today that heard the same information. So again we

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Speaker 5: know quite possibly their throats were cut. I don't think

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Speaker 5: that would be a shock to any expert in this

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Speaker 5: country looking at a double homicide of two young females

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Speaker 5: that were also more than likely sexually assaulted. But again,

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Speaker 5: that's not something that we ever talked about. That is

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Speaker 5: not something we ever put out there for the integrity

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Speaker 5: of this case and out of respect for the family.

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Speaker 5: But I too spoke to a family member and told

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Speaker 5: them that I was going to be on today and

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Speaker 5: that I was going to be as up front is

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Speaker 5: I possibly could well.

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Speaker 3: People on the inside of the case or near the family.

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Speaker 2: We have known for a long.

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Speaker 3: Time that the throats have been slashed, but claims of

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Speaker 3: a decapitation or a near decapitation and that the wrong

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Speaker 3: person is behind bars, that's all new to me.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that any of that is true.

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Speaker 3: Joe Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics Jacksonville State University

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Speaker 3: and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, host

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Speaker 3: of a Hit series Body Bags with Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 3: Joe Scott, you have studied the case from the very beginning.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to sort out what's true and what's not true.

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Speaker 3: And bottom line is is somehow all of these pronouncements,

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Speaker 3: many of them baseless, Is that somehow going to hurt

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Speaker 3: the trial? What can you tell me about your analysis

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Speaker 3: of what happened?

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Speaker 10: The idea relative to the deaths of these two young girls.

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Speaker 10: I've held from the beginning that they were specifically targeted and.

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Speaker 3: Well, what do you mean by that they were spotted

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Speaker 3: in the park that day or the day?

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Speaker 10: I think that being stalked. Okay, yeah, let me rephrase that.

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Speaker 10: I think that there was probably an awareness of these

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Speaker 10: young girls.

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Speaker 3: Well, for Pete's sake, the defendant was the pharmacy tech

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Speaker 3: right there in the middle of town.

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Speaker 2: He knew them and their families.

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Speaker 10: Or correct about that. And so my thought is is

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Speaker 10: that this was an opportunistic event where the individual was

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Speaker 10: looking for targets because they had an awareness of the

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Speaker 10: school being out that particular day they had the individual

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Speaker 10: that is, the perpetrator in this case, had a pre

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Speaker 10: a preset location where he was going to take them

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Speaker 10: to where he would have time with them or whichever

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Speaker 10: vicy them had come along at that particular time that

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Speaker 10: would suit his needs, and it would be in a

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Speaker 10: location where he could have access to them, have privacy

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Speaker 10: with them. Because if what we are hearing about the

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Speaker 10: crime scene, this is a complex crime scene, I think

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Speaker 10: with a lot of evidence that was down immediately adjacent

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Speaker 10: to the bodies. Now we've gotten off you know, chasing rabbits,

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Speaker 10: I think relative to a lot of this stuff that's

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Speaker 10: floating around out there about how they could potentially have been,

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Speaker 10: you know, sacrificed by odinist and all these sorts of things.

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Speaker 10: But at its bare bones, what does the science tell us,

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Speaker 10: And we don't have a lot that has been released

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Speaker 10: to this point relative to them. I think one of

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Speaker 10: the most disturbing things is you've got admittedly a lot

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Speaker 10: of intimate contact that's going on, but yet we don't

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Speaker 10: have DNA linkage that goes back to the primary suspect

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Speaker 10: in this case.

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Speaker 3: About under the girl's fingernails, specifically Libby's.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, and I think that that is a potential place

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Speaker 10: to harvest that DNA from because you're going to have

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Speaker 10: somebody that's fighting back for folks that don't know how

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Speaker 10: this works. If you think about a plow going into

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Speaker 10: kind of virgin soil and it's dragging along creates furrows,

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Speaker 10: that's one of the things that you begin to think

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Speaker 10: about with the fingernails, where you're going to capture skin, blood,

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Speaker 10: air that's beneath the fingernails, and they would have done. Look,

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Speaker 10: they didn't just do nail scrapings and nail clippings at autopsy.

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Speaker 10: They did rape kits as well. Nancy, I can almost

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Speaker 10: perfectly guarantee that they also did alternative lighting photography, which

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Speaker 10: is using things like infrared if you can pick up

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Speaker 10: on anything, any kind of marks on the body. I

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Speaker 10: hope that they did all of this. They put on

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Speaker 10: a full court press with this to try to collect

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Speaker 10: as much data as they could from these bodies.

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Speaker 3: Well, isn't it true that we have been told at

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Speaker 3: the get go, Cheryl, that Abby was dressed Libby was.

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Speaker 5: Not some variation of that. Yes, I've heard different type rumors,

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Speaker 5: but yes, that's what we've been told.

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Speaker 2: Rumors gossip innuendo.

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Speaker 3: Now could damage the trial based on what an ex

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Speaker 3: girlfriend that claims to recognize the defendant's voice saying down

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Speaker 3: the hill played on a loop.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about the evidence that.

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Speaker 3: We do know to Susan Hendrix, Barbara McDonald and Cheryl McCollum.

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Speaker 3: What events do we know that connects the defendant who

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Speaker 3: is headed.

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Speaker 2: For trial right now.

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Speaker 3: Number One, his admission behind bars while on the phone,

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Speaker 3: all of those calls are being recorded to family members

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Speaker 3: claiming he did it. Number two, the bullet from his gun,

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Speaker 3: based on hard ballistics forensics found at the scene between

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Speaker 3: the bodies, matched back to his gun still in his

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Speaker 3: possession at his home.

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Speaker 2: And also feline hair cat hair. Police actually exhumed a.

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Speaker 3: Family cat from the defendant Allen's yard to match up

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Speaker 3: to cat hair found on one of the victims, a

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Speaker 3: victim that we don't believe has ever been in the

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Speaker 3: defendant's home. Now, Cheryl, I find those three pieces of

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Speaker 3: evidence to be damning.

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Speaker 2: What more can you add?

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Speaker 5: I mean again, the fact that he told a law

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Speaker 5: enforcement person that he was there that day, that to

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Speaker 5: me is so critical. The fact that perhaps his call.

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Speaker 2: You mean at the trestle bridge, Yes, at.

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Speaker 5: The bridge he places him.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's just like Scott Peterson going, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: always had the marina the.

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Speaker 2: Day Lacey went missing.

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Speaker 11: Exactly at the body of water.

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Speaker 3: I was fishing, but that was just a big kowinky dink.

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Speaker 3: And what's a grown man with a family doing out

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Speaker 3: in the middle of the day when he should be

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Speaker 3: working by himself, walking on a trestle bridge at the

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Speaker 3: same time the girls go missing and or murdered.

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Speaker 5: And they didn't seek him out. He sought them out

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Speaker 5: to tell them, Hey, I was here. If you need anything,

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Speaker 5: I can help you. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think there's

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Speaker 5: gonna be some other things that come out, you know you.

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Speaker 5: They have not told us everything. I keep harping on that,

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Speaker 5: and there's a reason they're.

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Speaker 11: Playing this so close to the desk, and nor should

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Speaker 11: they should they Barbara McDonald joining US Court to V

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Speaker 11: documentary producer and producer of Cheln's Down the Hill podcast.

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Speaker 3: Barbara, what evidence, in your mind is the strongest evidence

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Speaker 3: linking the defendant Alan to the murders of Libby and Apple.

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Speaker 4: I think his own admission in the beginning that he

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Speaker 4: was out there, that he was dressed similarly to the

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Speaker 4: man that's Libby captured on the video, and that the

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Speaker 4: witness statements, while they're a little bit all over the place,

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Speaker 4: there is a lot of similarity in what the witnesses said,

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Speaker 4: and they seem to have seen a man dressed like

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Speaker 4: him around the time he says he was there, so

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Speaker 4: that all seems to line up.

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Speaker 3: So the fact that he places himself at the same

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Speaker 3: wearing the same kind of clothes as the guy pictured

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Speaker 3: and the girl's cell phone. To you, Susan Hendricks, what

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Speaker 3: do you believe is the strongest evidence linking Allan to

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Speaker 3: the murdyers.

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Speaker 9: I believe it is the unspent bullet, But as you know, Nancy,

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Speaker 9: it could be the battle of the experts when they

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Speaker 9: get on the stand. I've heard from some experts that

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Speaker 9: it yes, is like a fingerprint, from others, I'm sure

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Speaker 9: they will dispute that. To me, what stand out are

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Speaker 9: those jailhouse calls that both the defense and the prosecution

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Speaker 9: mentioned at a hearing this past June. And I always

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Speaker 9: think back to Casey Anthony and those jailhouse calls. We

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Speaker 9: know that the prisoners know that it is recorded, so

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Speaker 9: it will be interesting to see exactly what was said

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Speaker 9: and will it be played in court. To me, that's

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Speaker 9: the most damning and of course, as Cheryl and Barber mentioned,

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Speaker 9: being on the bridge side.

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Speaker 3: What do you mean by jailhouse calls potentially being the

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Speaker 3: most damning evidence.

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Speaker 9: If the prosecution and the defense mentioned at that hearing

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Speaker 9: in June that he did admit to doing this to

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Speaker 9: killing Abby and Libby, and I believe it was on

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Speaker 9: an iPad or a phone call, a device that was recorded.

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Speaker 9: So will they play it in court. I'm sure they

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Speaker 9: will as evidence that he confessed to his wife and

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Speaker 9: his mother.

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Speaker 3: I mean, just so to you, Matthew, Me and Gino

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Speaker 3: joining US high profile lawyer, former prosecutor in Lawrence County

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Speaker 3: and author of the Executioner's Toll, The Crimes arrest, Trials, appeals,

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Speaker 3: last meals, and final Words and executions of forty six

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Speaker 3: persons in the US. Matthew Man, Gina, thank you for

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Speaker 3: being with us.

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Speaker 2: Matthew.

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Speaker 3: Why now, just as we're heading to trial, are all

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Speaker 3: these wild theories and so called specials occurring that are

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Speaker 3: spouting out evidence that either is not true or is

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Speaker 3: very harmful to the state's case.

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Speaker 12: Well, Nancy, obviously, this case has generated a great deal

440
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 12: of publicity, and you know, people you know, want their

441
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 12: opportunity for fifteen minutes of fame. They want, you know,

442
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 12: people want to talk to them. There's gag orders, so

443
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 12: we don't know a lot that's going on in court.

444
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 12: And so you know, if you're going to generate any

445
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 12: news about this case, it's going to come from people

446
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 12: on the fringe. But what it does is is it

447
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 12: contaminates you know, the jury pool. I mean, so you

448
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 12: have you know, Carroll County is not a huge county. Uh,

449
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 12: if you're going to try this case there and all

450
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 12: this publicity is swirling around the community about uh, you

451
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 12: know other offenders or other people involved or this salacious

452
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 12: you know details.

453
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 13: Of what happened.

454
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 12: Uh, that that pool is going to be contaminating and

455
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 12: you know this this case may need to be moved

456
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 12: or another jury brought in because of you know this

457
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 12: these rumors that are swirling through the community and across

458
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 12: the country.

459
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 3: To doctor Jury L cross In, a psychologist's former law

460
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 3: enforcement now faculty at Saint Leo University, Doctor Jory, thank

461
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 3: you for being with us. What is the the motivator

462
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 3: for people to make up stories or publish stories that

463
00:27:55,400 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 3: are really just sensationalists and they could actually damaged the trial.

464
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 13: Yeah, we have this new dynamic social influencers and you know,

465
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 13: people they had these roles on their facebooks, Twitter accounts

466
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 13: and all this with followers. It was mentioned that confirmation bias,

467
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 13: and that's you know basically what you see when I

468
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 13: kind of related to that. You know, she had this

469
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 13: concept and she discounts, and it's normal you discount things

470
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,639
Speaker 13: that don't support it. You just look at things that

471
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 13: support it. And in the case of the ex girlfriend,

472
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 13: where she was attacked and had you know, violent interactions

473
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 13: with him, you know, she just simply confirmed that and

474
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 13: focused it into her concept of him being the perpetrator.

475
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 13: One of the other things that we brought up early

476
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 13: on was this possible decapitation and behaviorally speaking, you know,

477
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 13: I always look at behavior and with the behavior there

478
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 13: there's time elements, you know, and that all has to

479
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 13: kind of factor in. And I remember when we discussed

480
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 13: this case previously that there were time windows here, you know,

481
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,000
Speaker 13: like where the bodies were. They were kind of out

482
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 13: in the open. It looked like they were probably attempting

483
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 13: to be led into a more secluded area. So, you know,

484
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 13: the thing about the decapitation, I find that it's really

485
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 13: not probably reliable because of the time that would involve.

486
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 13: And even when they use the term rage. You know,

487
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 13: rage is a specific psychological level what we call a

488
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 13: paranoid shift, you know, where that rage just overtakes and

489
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 13: you get lost in a time. It appears this person had,

490
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 13: you know, the cognitive ability to relate to time, even

491
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 13: with the weapon where I mean he had a knife

492
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 13: one down, but the firearm, you know, the firearm was

493
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 13: meant more as a means of control of threat. And

494
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 13: especially if he chambered around you know, to me, that

495
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 13: would mean he already had around in the chamber and

496
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 13: he wanted to clear it. Yeah. And fear and still

497
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 13: that fear with that forty caliber. Yeah. So you know,

498
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 13: all the factors down into this, like this time window

499
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 13: that to me, it created a very disorganized type personality.

500
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: Guys, I want to talk about the dissemination of evidence

501
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 3: that has been leaked. Why why leaked evidence in this case,

502
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 3: particularly this nature of evidence.

503
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 2: Take a listen to Nicole parton Crime Online.

504
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 14: Prosecutor in the Delphi murder case is Nick mcleland, and

505
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 14: he listed twenty five reasons he believes Judge Francis Gull

506
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,640
Speaker 14: should hold Richard Allen's attorneys in contempt of court. Mcleland

507
00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 14: accuses Baldwin and Rozzie of violating a gag order during

508
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 14: their time as Allen's counsel. Most of the violation came

509
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:16,560
Speaker 14: in connection to an evidence leak out of Baldwin's office.

510
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 14: A friend and former colleague, Mitch Westerman, was at Baldwin's

511
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 14: office last October when he saw crime scene photos on

512
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 14: a conference room table. Once he is alone, Westerman takes

513
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 14: photos and sends them to a friend, who releases them

514
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 14: to social media. The leak led Baldwin and Rozzie, leaving

515
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 14: the defense team for Richard Allen. Mitch Westerman admitted he

516
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 14: took the photos without Baldwin or anyone else knowing, and

517
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,040
Speaker 14: sent them out himself. Westerman now faces charges to Cheryl McCollum,

518
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 14: what were the photos of.

519
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 5: They were straight up crime scene photographs of these two

520
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:55,719
Speaker 5: young victims and Nancy.

521
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 2: That was one leak.

522
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 5: Another leak was this odinism deal where every single expert

523
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 5: in the country just about was like odinism, I've never

524
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 5: heard of it.

525
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 4: So to me, how do you.

526
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 5: Introduce reasonable doubt and still not even be a trial.

527
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 5: They've done it. They've done it here successfully a few

528
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,040
Speaker 5: times now. You've got a whole jury pool expecting a beheaden.

529
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 5: You've got a whole jury pool expecting odinism. You've got

530
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 5: a whole jury pool that knows Ron Logan, Richard Allen.

531
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute. Let's

532
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: be clear what odinism is. Odinism, and I've spoken to

533
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 3: an expert on Odinism is the worship of.

534
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: Gods demi gods such as you know, thor.

535
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 3: The guy in the action movies. Odin is one of them.

536
00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 3: People still worship Odin apparently, So somehow someone was trying

537
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: to link the murders of Abbey and Libby to the

538
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 3: worship of Odin.

539
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 2: Okay, I don't know.

540
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: How that panned out, not very well, but it's very

541
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: disturbing Cheryl McCollum that someone would take pictures of pictures

542
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 3: of little girls whose throats have been slashed and disseminate

543
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: them on social media.

544
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 5: Nancy, this family has been revictimized over and over and over.

545
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 5: It's like every week they wake up and there's something else.

546
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 5: Oh we're going to have a trial. Nope, we're not

547
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 5: going to do it today. Oh he's going to be moved, No,

548
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 5: he's not going to be moved to a different place today.

549
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 5: Oh now there's odinism. Oh now there's a beheading. I

550
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:44,960
Speaker 5: mean they wake up and get slapped in the face

551
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 5: with this stuff. They didn't participate in the so called documentary.

552
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 5: They are just again waiting for the next shoe to drop,

553
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 5: in the next shoe to drop instill no justice for

554
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 5: these little girls too.

555
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,719
Speaker 3: Susan Hendrix's journalist and author of Down the Hill, might

556
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: have sent into the double murder in Delphi even if

557
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 3: a defense team itself had not leaked photos. The fact

558
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 3: that they are of these little girls, potentially naked and

559
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 3: savaged bloody, leaving them out for civilians not on the

560
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 3: trial team to see is negligent.

561
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 9: Yeah, exactly. I remember Kelsey telling me that her grandfather, Mike,

562
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 9: was the one that first saw of these bodies, and

563
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 9: she said, I never asked how she died, and part

564
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 9: of me doesn't want to know. So they're protecting themselves

565
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 9: mentally of course, going through this. And this was in

566
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 9: twenty nineteen when she said that to me. But there

567
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 9: is a hearing on March eighteenth, contempt hearing, and we'll see.

568
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 9: I don't know why those photos were leaked. It's just horrific.

569
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 9: I remember Becky posting on Facebook, these are the pictures

570
00:34:57,280 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 9: that we should be looking at of the girls. It's

571
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 9: not our job to solve this. That's for the court room,

572
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 9: and that's where they should be shown to the jurors,

573
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 9: not out there on the internet for everyone to see.

574
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,439
Speaker 9: And there's even more that maybe they were done.

575
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 3: And another thing to Barbara McDonald, a star of Down

576
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 3: the Heel podcast, Barbara, what kind of ghuel would they?

577
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: Oh?

578
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 3: Let me take pictures of these two dead little girls

579
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 3: and post them?

580
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,279
Speaker 4: It makes absolutely no sense. I don't understand how. I

581
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 4: don't understand how they can be just displayed in a

582
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 4: conference room that you're allowing people who are not actively

583
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 4: working on that case to have access to that room.

584
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 4: I don't know how those anybody takes pictures of that

585
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 4: and then thinks, oh yeah, let me share this. How

586
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 4: that is supposed to be helpful to the case. I

587
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 4: don't see it at all. It's disturbing and disgusting.

588
00:35:53,360 --> 00:36:11,280
Speaker 1: Quite honestly, Crime Stories with Nancy Grease to just Scott Morgan,

589
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: let's just walk for a short distance down this.

590
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 3: Flight of fancy, that this path to nowhere It's a

591
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: pig path. You know what a pig path is, right,

592
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 3: You know how pigs won't run straight, they run all

593
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,320
Speaker 3: different ways. That's a pig path and it leads to nowhere.

594
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 3: Claims that someone other than Richard Allen is a killer.

595
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 3: Let's follow that through to its logical conclusion, Joe Scott.

596
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: That would mean that someone had to go to Richard

597
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 3: Allen's home, put a bullet in his gun, cycle it

598
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,879
Speaker 3: through without him or his wife or daughter ever knowing

599
00:36:55,880 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 3: anybody was there, getting the bullet out, taking it to

600
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: the crime saying and dropping it between the two dead bodies,

601
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 3: or some other way of stealthily obtaining a bullet out

602
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 3: of his gun, replacing the gun, and then allowing the

603
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 3: bullet to be found there, basically framing him.

604
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 2: You think somebody's framing.

605
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 3: Richard Alan, the guy that confessed to his wife wooh,

606
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 3: crying and s nodding on the phone to his mommy. Really,

607
00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 3: and you'd have to imagine that someone then also planted

608
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 3: the cat hair. The cat's dead in the backyard, buried.

609
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 2: They had to exhume the cat, Joe Scott.

610
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 3: So to believe someone else framed Richard Allan, what did

611
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,720
Speaker 3: they go pluck the hair from the cat.

612
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,360
Speaker 2: Did they dig the cat up? I mean, this is insane.

613
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: It doesn't make any sense to claim anyone other than

614
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 3: Richard Allan did this, or someone in this home that

615
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,480
Speaker 3: leaves his wife and his daughter.

616
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 2: I don't see it. I see Richard Allen.

617
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 10: You got all all manner of of you know, goblins

618
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 10: that are inhabiting this area. Who I'd never heard of Delphi,

619
00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 10: Indiana before this occurred. Of course I know it well

620
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 10: now I'm familiar with the families after all these years.

621
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 10: And I got to tell you, you know the fact that

622
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 10: you would have all of these players come in to

623
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 10: enter on and off the stage of this this tragedy,

624
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,839
Speaker 10: and that it would be this idea that he's being

625
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 10: framed somehow, you know, with this this whole Odinism thing.

626
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 10: And now you've got this you know girlfriend, former girlfriend

627
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:49,239
Speaker 10: that's saying that the other person you know who's conveniently

628
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 10: dead now is is the person that did this. It

629
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 10: really gives you pause to think about it. And and

630
00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,520
Speaker 10: let me just kind of plainly state this right now

631
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 10: while I have your attention. Whoever released that photo, whoever

632
00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 10: sent that out? I still and I know that their

633
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 10: charges penning. I do not understand at this point in

634
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 10: time why bench warrant was not issued for that individual

635
00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,720
Speaker 10: and their ass was put in jail as a result

636
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 10: of this, Because this can be something that is so

637
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 10: incredibly damaging. The stuff that Mac and I have done

638
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 10: over the course of our career. We enter on the

639
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:31,279
Speaker 10: other side of a veil, if you will, and no

640
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 10: one is supposed to penetrate that because it screws up

641
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 10: the continuity of the case. Everything that we do is protected.

642
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 10: That's why we don't share it with other people. And

643
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 10: if this person who has put this photo out there

644
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 10: has ruined this case, we'll be into them because it

645
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 10: could be that damaging. And I don't know what else

646
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 10: may have happened along the way, because it's taken so

647
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 10: long for this case to move forward.

648
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 5: Nanthy, can I please jump in?

649
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 3: Yeah, I please to, and then I'll circle back.

650
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: Go ahead.

651
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 5: We started working together when I was in my early twenties.

652
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 5: You would sometimes, I remember, spread the case file out

653
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,719
Speaker 5: and you would pray over each file. Never in the

654
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 5: entire multiple decades that we worked together, did you ever

655
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 5: share a case file with me, photographs with me, statements

656
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,279
Speaker 5: with me, that I was not directly involved in. You

657
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 5: worked one hundreds of cases, not once for show, not

658
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 5: once for bragging, not once for you ain't gonna believe this?

659
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 5: Did you show me photographs? Never so again for somebody

660
00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:45,080
Speaker 5: to leave those out when just a regular joe off

661
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 5: the street comes in, It's almost hard for me to

662
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 5: believe that was no purpose. And again I'm going to

663
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 5: go back to how do you introduce reasonable doubt? How

664
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 5: do you pain a case? How do you throw it

665
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 5: off track? They've done it beautifully, photograph after league. Odinism

666
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 5: is all of a sudden. There you got ron Logan

667
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 5: coming back from the grave. You got Richard Allen, you

668
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 5: got Kegan Kin. They're just throwing every little bit of

669
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 5: mud they can on the wall to see what's gonna.

670
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 3: Do you know, Cheryl speaking in those files, I remember distinkly.

671
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever seen flight attendants or

672
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 3: pilots at the airport. They'll be going along with a

673
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:27,920
Speaker 3: little pull cart thing where their suitcases on. There.

674
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 2: I would stack up in.

675
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 3: US mail buckets, those big white buckets, all the evidence.

676
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 3: At the end of every day of a trial, there

677
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 3: would be nothing left in the courtroom on the table.

678
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: Nothing. I'd stack it up and take it to.

679
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 3: My car, put it in my car myself, put it

680
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,799
Speaker 3: in my trunk, take it home with me, and bring

681
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,520
Speaker 3: it inside.

682
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: Every trial there.

683
00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 3: Would not be a sintilla of evidence for anybody to

684
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 3: look at or see or try to decipher, ever, much

685
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 3: less pictures of the dead girls just laid out on

686
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 3: a conference table for any Tom, Dick and Harry to

687
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:16,880
Speaker 3: come in in Ogel.

688
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: It's just.

689
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 12: Wrong.

690
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 3: But that said, you're right, Cheryl McCollum, I expect at trial,

691
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 3: Matthew Mangino, you're the high profile lawyer for everyone of

692
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:38,320
Speaker 3: the name Cheryl just named out, and more anybody police

693
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 3: looked at during the investigation as a potential POI person

694
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: of interest, they're going to be brought in in front

695
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 3: of the jury that many investigation to say they did it,

696
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 3: not him. That's going to happen. So the state darn

697
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 3: well better be ready for it. In they're opening state,

698
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 3: they need to tell the jury, well, you investigated.

699
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 2: This guy that was wrong. It wasn't him. We rolled

700
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:07,280
Speaker 2: him out.

701
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,200
Speaker 3: This guy, this guy, this guy, this guy. You've got

702
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 3: to tell the jury up front. You've got to shoot

703
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 3: them down before they even bring it up.

704
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, and I agree with you, Nancy, And you know

705
00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 12: that's that makes the case more difficult and extends the

706
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,920
Speaker 12: case for the prosecution. But they have to beat the

707
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 12: defense to those issues. They have to bring those people in,

708
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 12: talk about what the investigation entailed, what the who they

709
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 12: looked at, why they moved away from that person as

710
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 12: a suspect. They have to prove not only that Allen

711
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 12: did this, but these other people didn't. It adds to

712
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 12: their responsibility because a jury is going to expect to

713
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 12: hear that, and they want to beat the defense to

714
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:56,840
Speaker 12: the punch on that issue.

715
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

716
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 3: To you, Barbara McDonald down the Hill podcast through h

717
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,839
Speaker 3: oln What do you make of what's happening now? And

718
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 3: what is your prediction? Are we really going to trial

719
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 3: on that trial day? Is there any chance for a play?

720
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 4: I am not much of a gambler, but I wouldn't

721
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:18,840
Speaker 4: put money on a plea and I'm not so sure

722
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 4: we're going to see a trial anytime soon. It is

723
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 4: the legal wrangling. It is all about these all of

724
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 4: these attorneys.

725
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:28,280
Speaker 7: Now.

726
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 4: The prosecutor is fighting with the defense, the defense is

727
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 4: fighting with the judge.

728
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,320
Speaker 2: I hope, well that happens in every trial.

729
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know this is an unusual case. It

730
00:44:41,080 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 4: already went to the Supreme Court before we even had

731
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 4: a verdict in this case, and the Supreme Court weighed

732
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 4: in in a matter of hours, which was a very

733
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 4: unusual step for them. The record needs to be established

734
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 4: in this case. It needs to be maintained more clearly.

735
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 4: It is a mess at the moment, and you know

736
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 4: we need to get to a jam.

737
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:07,800
Speaker 3: I will tell you, Barbara that show of every murder

738
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 3: case I've ever tried, it's always a legal mess. And

739
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,839
Speaker 3: when you go to the state supremes or the state

740
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 3: appellate court, it's usually for an emergency ruling that is

741
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: going to affect the discovery or the trial itself. They

742
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: usually turn those around pretty quickly. As to all other

743
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:30,319
Speaker 3: appeals forget about anything being nobody's in a hurry, But

744
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:33,360
Speaker 3: on emergency appeals such as that, you can kind of

745
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 3: get a quick turnaround few and far between. Susan Hendrix,

746
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:40,879
Speaker 3: what do you think, first of all, Kim Dumblap, Hold

747
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,240
Speaker 3: on Kim Dumblap, is this is a death penalty state.

748
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,480
Speaker 3: Any chance of the death penalty?

749
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 7: I haven't heard, you know, I can't say one w

750
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,400
Speaker 7: or or the other. I haven't heard yet. Nobody's brought that

751
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,880
Speaker 7: up in court. Frowlings, Well, we would know.

752
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 3: You have to announce death penalty at the get go.

753
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 3: What about it, Cheryl McCollum, any chance of death penal

754
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 3: to hear? I say no, it would have been announced

755
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:06,439
Speaker 3: a long time ago.

756
00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 5: I think it would have been announced a long time ago,

757
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 5: and I've heard nothing about it.

758
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,200
Speaker 3: I agree, Okay, this is what we know. The case

759
00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,399
Speaker 3: set to go forward. Susan Hendrix, What do you make

760
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 3: of what we've heard today?

761
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 9: Well, I think through all of this mess and everything

762
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 9: that's gone on in Becky's text this morning saying, Wow,

763
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,479
Speaker 9: the craziness keeps coming. I believe they were revictimized going

764
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 9: through this, but they have their eye on the trial.

765
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 9: They want justice. And why would anyone want to imply

766
00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 9: that Richard Allen did it? If he didn't, that means

767
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,719
Speaker 9: that the person or person would still be out there.

768
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 9: I do have faith in the system, and I believe

769
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 9: they can find jerors who will look at the evidence.

770
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 9: And I don't think we know all of the evidence,

771
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,480
Speaker 9: even within the leaks that we have seen and heard of.

772
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:54,840
Speaker 9: I have faith in it.

773
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 2: I agree with you, Susan Hendricks.

774
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 3: We have not heard even a tiny portion of the evidence,

775
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 3: and why should we, Cheryl McCollum to you, the fact that.

776
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 2: These girls.

777
00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 3: Had to be buried with scarves wrapped around their necks

778
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,800
Speaker 3: to cover up wounds.

779
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 2: Is so much to take in, Cheryl.

780
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 5: You know, Nancy, you're the first person that sent me there,

781
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 5: and when I got to Delphi, I had a very

782
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 5: similar experience that Susan and Barbara did, and that as

783
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 5: soon as you get into town, I mean, it's picturesque,

784
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 5: it's beautiful, everybody's super friendly, but there's no way you

785
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 5: find that bridge if you're not from there. And so

786
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 5: to me, the first thing that's stuck is that he

787
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 5: had to be from right there. There was no doubt

788
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,439
Speaker 5: in my mind once I walked to the bridge, same thing.

789
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 5: And Susan and Barbara and you, we have all talked

790
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 5: the significance of the location and how it happened is paramount.

791
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 5: And I will just leave you with this. They've got

792
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 5: got more that they haven't told us. They've got more

793
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:03,959
Speaker 5: that's going.

794
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 4: To come out.

795
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 5: This is for trial, this is not for entertainment.

796
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 3: It could not have been put any better than Cheryl

797
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:13,279
Speaker 3: would call and just put it.

798
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,720
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye friend,