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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast AM on

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Speaker 1: iHeart Radio. Abraham Reesman grew up in oak Park, Illinois,

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Speaker 1: not too far away from where I grew up. And

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Speaker 1: it's such a pleasure to have you on tonight, and

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for giving us this time on

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Speaker 1: such short notice. Oh it's it's a pleasure. Thank you

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Speaker 1: so much. And yes, I I you're you're from will Matt,

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Speaker 1: if I recall correctly, Yeah, yeah, I was born and

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Speaker 1: will Mett grew up and when EKA had lots of

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Speaker 1: friends in oak Park. It's a great place to grow up.

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Speaker 1: I hope you had as wonderful experience in the greater

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Speaker 1: Chicagoland area as I did. I did my bad. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for having me so you may be wondering why

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Speaker 1: you're here. I'm a big stan leefan. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how your book escaped being on my nightstand, because this

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Speaker 1: is the kind of biography that I love, these deep dives.

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Speaker 1: You have great reviews for this book and wonderful people

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Speaker 1: endorsing it on the back in those blurbs we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: You're a book which I think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: have sort of would have I mean the idea that

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Speaker 1: somehow stan Lee, the guy we know so well or

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Speaker 1: think we know, is probably I think it's fair to

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Speaker 1: say he was overcredited for what he did for Marvel Comics.

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Speaker 1: But the book is called True Believer. The Rise and

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Speaker 1: Fall of stan Lee been out less than a year,

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Speaker 1: and I heard about it because my younger son is

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Speaker 1: in a book club with a guy named Danny who's

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Speaker 1: in Phoenix, who contacted you because he was going to

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Speaker 1: use you as a source on a paper, and so

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Speaker 1: they were talking about you in this book club just

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Speaker 1: the other night, and my son said, Dad, you got

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Speaker 1: to find out more about this, and he texted me

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, okay, right away, So that's why you're here.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny. I thought that that, you know, the

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Speaker 1: person you mentioned contacted and said they were writing a paper,

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Speaker 1: you know, for school, and wanted to interview me about

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Speaker 1: the book. And you know, part of you saying so, well,

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Speaker 1: you know that small potatoes. But of course for me,

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm such a you know, I just like the attention,

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Speaker 1: so I'll talk to anybody. But also, you know, I

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Speaker 1: remember being studying things and wishes right to the author

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Speaker 1: and learn more about what you know where there were

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Speaker 1: gaps in there. So uh, you know, we had a

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Speaker 1: long conversation and afterward I was like, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: even if that just turns into like one footnote in

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Speaker 1: a school paper that I never see, have felt good

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Speaker 1: about it. But I guess it turned into something even bigger.

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Speaker 1: So it did. It did in your generosity land to

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Speaker 1: do on coast to coast. So I hope we sell

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Speaker 1: a few copies of this book and for people who

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Speaker 1: got gift cards or something like that for Amazon, for

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Speaker 1: you know, the holidays. Heck, this is you could do worse.

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Speaker 1: This is cool. So a true believer of the rise

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Speaker 1: and fall of Stanley. The stories about the friction between

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Speaker 1: Stanley and Jack Kirby are well known because they were

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Speaker 1: public lawsuits, and we've you know, you could It's easy

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Speaker 1: enough to follow how other people felt about Stanley. But

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Speaker 1: Stanley himself, I think is a little more enigmatic. Is

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Speaker 1: that what you found? Sure well with the line I

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Speaker 1: always said while I was working on the book was

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Speaker 1: you know, everybody knows Stanley, but nobody knows Stanley. Right.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is a figure who as a as

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Speaker 1: a piece of intellectual property, like literally as a piece

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Speaker 1: of copyright, intellectual property. The face of Stanley, the name

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Speaker 1: of Stanley are things that are known globally. I mean

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Speaker 1: billions of people. That's not just me coming up with

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Speaker 1: a random number. Not at all. People have been exposed

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Speaker 1: to even if they don't know his name, They've seen

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Speaker 1: the movies and they see the cameos where he shows up.

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Speaker 1: So you think you have this intimacy with Stanley there

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Speaker 1: for But what it turned out to be was a

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Speaker 1: story of a guy who created a character called Stanlee,

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Speaker 1: but in some ways became that character. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, that character was not the full story. There

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Speaker 1: was a lot there that people hadn't really dug into,

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Speaker 1: and so as a journalist it was it was a

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Speaker 1: really interesting process to kind of talk to people who

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Speaker 1: sometimes it was even just collating things that were already

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Speaker 1: out there that people just hadn't put into the exact

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Speaker 1: shape they needed to be. You know, all of this

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Speaker 1: was there, as you say, the dispute between Stanley and

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Speaker 1: Jack Kirby was not, you know, total news, and for

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Speaker 1: your listeners who aren't fully familiar with all that, Basically,

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Speaker 1: Stanley was the writer and sorry with the editor and

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Speaker 1: co writer of UH the Marvel of many of the

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Speaker 1: Marvel comics that came out in the nineteen sixties. Um

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Speaker 1: and Jack Kirby was the writer slash artist who he

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Speaker 1: most most famously collaborated with in that period. Um, they

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Speaker 1: co created or it gets very dicey when you start

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Speaker 1: saying who created whatever? But under their names, under the

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Speaker 1: Stanley and Jack Kirby names, you had comics such as

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Speaker 1: the Fantastic Four and the X Men and the Avengers

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Speaker 1: and black Pants are all of that stuff. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: all of these characters started to roll out in this period. Um.

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Speaker 1: And the dispute that happens to this day is well,

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Speaker 1: who created what? Who got too much credit, who got

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Speaker 1: too little credit? And what was interesting for me as

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Speaker 1: a journalist was finding how much of this stuff had

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Speaker 1: just been sitting there right you know. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to sound like I was lazy. I know

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Speaker 1: it some back at some sweat equity, but there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of it where it was you just go, well,

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Speaker 1: why are people I mean, this is not going to

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Speaker 1: be This is the kind of thing you think about

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Speaker 1: all the time. You go, this has been sitting here

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Speaker 1: in the open. Why has nobody been talking about it.

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Speaker 1: This is true about so many topics, but with stan

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Speaker 1: it was it was just another one of those examples

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Speaker 1: where well, there's a myth, there's a set of myths

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Speaker 1: about him, and people are very invested in them. Well,

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Speaker 1: I tell my students all the time about that concept

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Speaker 1: of low hanging journalistic fruit, that it's good to know

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Speaker 1: how to do data driven journalism. It's important to know

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Speaker 1: how to drill down into you know, city statistics and

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Speaker 1: all of them. You know that that's good, but it's

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Speaker 1: amazing what you can find if you actually just sort

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Speaker 1: of get off the internet and you start making some calls.

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Speaker 1: And I think that there's this presumption that somehow everything

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Speaker 1: that's worth knowing has already been posted online and that's

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Speaker 1: just all derivative stuff and what you're finding. And at

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Speaker 1: least what I'm believing I understand is that while this

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Speaker 1: was just sort of lying on the ground waiting for

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Speaker 1: you to come by and pick it up. Um, this

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Speaker 1: was some of the most precious data about stan Lee.

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Speaker 1: He wasn't necessarily trying to hide it. But he also

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Speaker 1: wasn't out there promoting this, right right right, They're all sorry,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead, no, no, no, you got it

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Speaker 1: go ahead, Yeah, I mean the Low Hanging Fruit was

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Speaker 1: you know, there there are big questions that are kind

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Speaker 1: of unanswerable because the data just was not really recorded,

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Speaker 1: most notably being who was the initial person to create

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Speaker 1: the characters. Now, there are a lot of ways we

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Speaker 1: can sort of try and reconstruct who might have done that.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to that in a second. But one thing

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Speaker 1: that is Low Hanging Fruit is Stan was overcredited with

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Speaker 1: miscredited and Jack Kirby and other collaborators vis were under

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Speaker 1: They were undercredited because the way that these comic were

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Speaker 1: being created was through something that's very idios and cratic

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Speaker 1: and now known as the Marvel method. Now this did

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Speaker 1: not have a name back when it was being done

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Speaker 1: in the sixties. This is what we call it now,

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Speaker 1: But the Marvel method was very loosely. Um, you would

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Speaker 1: have a conversation of some kind between the writer and

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Speaker 1: the artist or really it's you started talking about these things,

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Speaker 1: can you fall into the marats You know, it's all right,

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Speaker 1: it'll detailed matter, but the de does matter. The point

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Speaker 1: was you would not really have a script. There would

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Speaker 1: not be a case it would It was not a

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Speaker 1: case of a writer sitting down typing out a script

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Speaker 1: and saying, Okay, in panel one, I want the artist

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Speaker 1: to draw this, and this is what the dialogue will be.

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Speaker 1: And then panel two that is that was not it, Stan,

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Speaker 1: We have a conversation with whoever was drawing the issue

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Speaker 1: that week or that month rather and um from that conversation,

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Speaker 1: which could be very mysterious and was not recorded whatever,

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Speaker 1: then the artist would go home as a freelancer and

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Speaker 1: right the comic, except not with worth. They would write withdrawing.

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Speaker 1: They would draw out the full comic based on whatever

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Speaker 1: came out of that conversation. The conversation very often was

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Speaker 1: very brief. This is by Stan's own admission. Again, this

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Speaker 1: is low hanging fruit. This is out there. Stan would say.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes the littlest idea that I will come in with

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Speaker 1: will be like, hey, Jack, we should have doctor Doom

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Speaker 1: come back in the next issue, and then Jack will

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Speaker 1: run with it. And then you know their interviews in

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Speaker 1: the sixties before all this stuff mattered, where Stan actually says,

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Speaker 1: you know, and sometimes Jack will even tell me what's

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Speaker 1: going to be in the issue. But the point is

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Speaker 1: that was never how it was credited. It was all

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Speaker 1: I mean, there were times, sometimes when it was credited

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Speaker 1: as like ambiguously like this is by Stan Lee and

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Speaker 1: Jack Kirby, and it didn't tell you who was doing what.

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Speaker 1: But more often you would have, you know, written by

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Speaker 1: Stan Lee, drawn by Jack Kirby, when what was going

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Speaker 1: on was Stan and Jack would have some kind of

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Speaker 1: conversation which may well have been Jack just dictating what

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Speaker 1: he was going to do, and Stan saying okay, that,

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Speaker 1: went home and wrote the comic. He would draw in

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Speaker 1: little He would also write in little margin notes saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think the dialogue here should maybe be

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Speaker 1: like this or this is explaining with having in this picture.

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Speaker 1: He'd give those pages to stand and then Stan would

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Speaker 1: read that and add in the dialogue and the narration,

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Speaker 1: so the actual specific words were stand. So he's definitely

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Speaker 1: a co writer on these comics, that's indisputable. But he's

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Speaker 1: not the soul writer, and he's not the first writer.

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Speaker 1: He's not the person coming up with the plot and

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Speaker 1: the structure and the reveal and the character development and

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Speaker 1: all of that stuff. That was that was whoever was drawing,

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Speaker 1: and most you know, more often than most other people,

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Speaker 1: that was Jack Kirby. So that overcrediting is the beginning,

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Speaker 1: and once you start pulling at that thread, that's when

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Speaker 1: you start finding out that, well, there's the possibility that

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Speaker 1: this entire enterprise was built on a lie. You know,

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Speaker 1: that put a built on the myth of this one

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Speaker 1: singular creator who had the ideas, knew the first principles,

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Speaker 1: and then dictated them to others to just execute. That

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Speaker 1: was the myth that Marvel perpetuated in so many words

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Speaker 1: for decades and still kind of does r oh. I

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Speaker 1: think I think it actively does. I think it actively does,

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Speaker 1: and I think an odd sort of way. I mean,

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Speaker 1: because Marvel took control of the narrative of their movies

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Speaker 1: away from licensing it to others to make, and that

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Speaker 1: would have been a chance to correct it. That would

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Speaker 1: have been a chance to say, okay, this is how

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Speaker 1: it was shorthanded by others who aren't in the know.

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Speaker 1: But instead they continued to perpetuate this idea. And I

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Speaker 1: think the key part is when you said creator, because

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Speaker 1: if you ask the average person about Stanlee, they'll say

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Speaker 1: he created, and then they'll go through the long list

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Speaker 1: of the things which he so called created, But he

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Speaker 1: didn't he was there. Let's say we're being created. He

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Speaker 1: was part of a conversation about its creation, but he

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Speaker 1: was not. He didn't walk in one day and go

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Speaker 1: I have an idea. There's four people, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: And that's where the fact that he was willing to

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Speaker 1: accept the lie, that he was willing to stand by

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Speaker 1: the lie, that's the part that's I think self indicting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because when it comes to that,

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Speaker 1: you say, he didn't come in and say I want

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Speaker 1: to do a story about four people, referring to Fantastic Four.

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Speaker 1: It's possible he did have the initial notion of saying,

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Speaker 1: what if we had a story about four people who

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Speaker 1: did X, Y and Z. That's possible. But what not

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Speaker 1: possible is saying he was the sole creator because Stan

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Speaker 1: couldn't draw at the very least, at the very least,

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Speaker 1: No matter what you believe about how much Stan came

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Speaker 1: up with in terms of the ideas for these characters

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Speaker 1: and the situations, San was not the artist. And these

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Speaker 1: are it's comic books, it's a visual medium. It completely

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Speaker 1: short changes the entire concept of the comics medium. If

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Speaker 1: you say the writer is the you know, the only

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Speaker 1: important question is, like who comes up with the name

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Speaker 1: of the character. Powers are I mean, can you imagine

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Speaker 1: the thing without the visuals? No, of course not. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's It's as important, if not more so, especially

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Speaker 1: for back then when the readers of complots were actual,

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Speaker 1: I mean when superhero comics that is where young people.

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Speaker 1: You know. Now superhero comics are largely read by old

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Speaker 1: fogies like myself, right, But back then you had to

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Speaker 1: have stuff that was very visually, the storytelling that was

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Speaker 1: extremely visual. And and those characters, even just in their

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Speaker 1: initial design, are all extremely visual. So the point is

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Speaker 1: when you perpetuate the myth that the primary creator and

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Speaker 1: then you know, even if you through a sin of

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Speaker 1: omission the soul creator by not mentioning the other creator

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Speaker 1: is stan Leave. When you perpetuate that myth, you're really

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's just wrong. It's not it's not accurate,

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Speaker 1: it's it's inaccurate as a description. Listen to more Coast

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Speaker 1: to Coast AM every weeknight at one am Eastern, and

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Speaker 1: go to Coast to Coast am dot com for more