1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:03,360 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's me Josh and for this week's select, 2 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: I've chosen our tinpan Alley episode from May twenty nineteen. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,399 Speaker 1: It's one of those topics I knew nothing about but 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: was pleasantly surprised to find that it's super interesting. It's 5 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: about the birth of the music industry and the place 6 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: where a lot of great songs that are still really 7 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,240 Speaker 1: great today were produced. Hope you enjoy this episode. 8 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio. 9 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:38,120 Speaker 3: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 10 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: I'm Josh Clark, and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and 11 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: there's Jerry over there. 12 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 3: And this is stuff you shnow The Superstar Edition, the 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 3: old time he Superstar Adition. 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, man, I thought this was super cool. 15 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 3: It tinpan Alley. 16 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is one of those things where I've I 17 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: sort of knew what tinpan alley was. You always have 18 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 2: heard that term thrown around, but I never really really 19 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 2: got it until this episode. 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 21 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 2: Same here, and it's pretty cool. Like the term tin 22 00:01:10,040 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: pan alley t I N full stop p A n Ali. 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 3: You forgot a second full stop there. 24 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 2: Full stop. I just want to make sure people know 25 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 2: it's not one word like ten pan. Right, it's two words, right, 26 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: but that is linguistically speaking, that's a synectic key. What 27 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 2: it is? 28 00:01:29,400 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 3: You know what that is, right, I've seen the movie. 29 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 2: Man, that movie. Geez talking about the Charlie Cofflin thing. 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 1: Right, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, senectady, senectic key New York. 31 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. So a senectic key is it's when a specific 32 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 2: place stands in for a broader term, like Wall Street, 33 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: like Wall Street's a real street, but wall Street also 34 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 2: means like the finance industry, right, or Hollywood, Hollywood's a 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 2: real place. 36 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: Okay, this makes a lot more since then the Charlie 37 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 1: Coffman movie. 38 00:02:01,840 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so ten pan Alley is a bunch of things. 39 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 2: It was a place right in New York City, which 40 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: we'll get to in a second, like exactly where, and 41 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 2: it was also referred to sort of the beginnings of 42 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:23,639 Speaker 2: the music publishing industry and a genre as well. 43 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 3: Yep. 44 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 2: So it's kind of a lot of things, but it 45 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 2: stems from the root of a ten pan, like a 46 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: ten pan or a was a cheap piano. Like if 47 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 2: you had a really cheap piano, you would say it 48 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 2: sounds ten panny. 49 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: Right, because like that's what the hammer on the piano's 50 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: hitting is ten pans rather than strings. 51 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds just like a real tenny tone, like 52 00:02:43,760 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 2: you're beating on a tenpan. So that's where the term 53 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: originally came from. And depending on who you ask, this 54 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: area of New York was called tinpan Alley because perhaps 55 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 2: a journalist first wrote about it. All the sounds coming 56 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,799 Speaker 2: from the songwriters from these buildings on this one block 57 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 2: sounded like tinpan Alley. 58 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: Right, it's no exaggeration to say tinpan Alley. Specifically this 59 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: little stretch in New York like a block or so, 60 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: maybe less than a block. 61 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: Again, it's a block, okay. 62 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: Was the place where the American popular music industry was born? 63 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's specifically twenty eighth Street between six and Broadway, 64 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 2: kind of between Chelsea and kIPS Bay, a little northwest 65 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 2: of like the flat Iron building. 66 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:30,560 Speaker 3: Gotcha. 67 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:35,560 Speaker 2: And it's interesting to think that, like the music, the 68 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:41,839 Speaker 2: beginnings of music distribution wasn't like pre phonograph from pre records. 69 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 2: There was still music distribution, but it was it was sheet. 70 00:03:45,320 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 1: Music right right, So I think choke, we should get 71 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: back in the way back the ooh and go to 72 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: an indeterminate part of the mid nineteenth century in the 73 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 1: United States. 74 00:03:53,720 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 3: Let's do it. So, like you said, there's everywhere, there's. 75 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: A lot of it. It's like you said, if you 76 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: wanted to hear music, you had basically two choices. You 77 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: could go hear it played live somewhere everywhere, from a 78 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: barbershop quartet to maybe an orchestra or board right or 79 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: you could have a family member who knew how to 80 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,200 Speaker 1: play music and buy a piano and have it in 81 00:04:26,240 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: your home. Those were your two ways to hear music 82 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,559 Speaker 1: because everywhere there was no such thing as radio. 83 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 2: Let's just let's just say it everybody. Yeah, there was 84 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 2: no radio. 85 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 1: There wasn't and if you think about it, radio was was. 86 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: You know, we take it so much for granted today, 87 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:50,080 Speaker 1: but it was a huge watershed change in the way 88 00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 1: that Americans in the world heard their music. You could 89 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: just hear it at home being played by professionals like 90 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: the most the greatest musicians you've ever heard, just sit 91 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 1: around and listen to it at your home, whereas just 92 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,559 Speaker 1: years before, a few years before, you had to listen 93 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 1: to your twelve year old try to bang out some 94 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 1: song on the piano that you just bought and that 95 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: was your option, aside from going to hear it live. 96 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: And so this whole idea of the music industry being born, 97 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: it was basically predicated on two things, Chuck. One was 98 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: the fact that pianos were starting to become ubiquitous in 99 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: American houses and people were learning how to play those pianos, 100 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: so music instruction became kind of widespread. And then secondly, 101 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: copyright law started to really solidify in the United States 102 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, and so that sheet music became 103 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: much more valuable than it was before. 104 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like, if you can't, like I can't read sheet music, 105 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 2: I learned I can't either. Yeah, I learned to play 106 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: guitar by ear, and kind of I guess every friend 107 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 2: I know that's a musician except for a couple learned 108 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 2: by ear. If you came up formally through through high 109 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 2: school band or something like that, or maybe just private 110 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 2: music instruction, then you may be able to read music. 111 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 2: But back in the day, if you could not end 112 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 2: still today, if you could not play by ear, the 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: only way to do so was through sheet music. And 114 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 2: that was the first commodity in the music business, was 115 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 2: literally just selling sheet music to people, right so it's 116 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 2: hard to wrap your head around now, but that was 117 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: the commodity. 118 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 3: It is hard to wrap your head around. 119 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 1: But if you think about sheet music is basically the 120 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: predecessor to the cassette or the record or the CD 121 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,040 Speaker 1: or the MP three, it's the exact same thing. It's 122 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 1: just to hear it, like that is what you went 123 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: and bought at the store and then you came home 124 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,000 Speaker 1: and played it rather than listening to somebody else playing it. 125 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like they sold a lot of them, like 126 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 2: the very first hit that tin Panale put out, and 127 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: this was a period. I mean, this was an eighteen 128 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 2: eighty one when Wait Till the Clouds Roll By was 129 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 2: put out, So tin Panale generally was or early eighteen 130 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 2: eighties till early nineteen twenties or so I saw. 131 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 3: Like late nineteen twenties, was it really Yeah. 132 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess you know, you can never say when 133 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: it was dead dead, But in one month in eighteen 134 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 2: eighty one, they sold seventy five thousand copies of sheet 135 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: music to Wait Till the Clouds Roll By. 136 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: Right, that's amazing, yeah, because this was it was a 137 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: good song and people wanted to hear the song, so 138 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: they went and bought the sheet music. Yea, So that 139 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: was one thing, right, So there was sheet music. That 140 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: was how you got this stuff out. But even before 141 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: Wait Till the Clouds Rolled By, which it seems like 142 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: was probably America's first number one smash. 143 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:41,559 Speaker 2: Hit yeah pop music. 144 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: Prior to that, there was plenty of sheet music to 145 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: be sold, but it was a largely like church hymns storing. 146 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: It was. There was a lot that were sold for schools. 147 00:07:56,120 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 1: And like I said, copyright law changed. It allowed tim 148 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 1: panale to develop, and it did so in two ways. 149 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: One it like the court started taking copyrights for music 150 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: seriously in the second half of the nineteenth century, so 151 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 1: you could actually enforce your copyright against people who were 152 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: infringing on it. And then secondly, the courts, the Supreme 153 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: Court and specifically said, hey, if you wrote a song 154 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: outside of America, when it comes to America it enjoys 155 00:08:27,640 --> 00:08:30,680 Speaker 1: you can copyright it in America too, which means that 156 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: the music publisher's source of free sheet music, which was 157 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: just basically stealing foreign music, printing it out in sheet 158 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: music form, and then selling it and not paying any 159 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: royalties because it enjoyed no copyright protection, that source dried up, 160 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: and so all of a sudden, this American music that 161 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: they had to pay for now seemed a lot more 162 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:55,000 Speaker 1: attractive because now they had to pay for the music 163 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: generated overseas too. So this is copyright law and the 164 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: fact that more and more people were learn need to 165 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 1: play piano, and so you had an actual market four 166 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: sheet music. Those two things came together. 167 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 2: All right, let's take a break. I feel like that's 168 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 2: pretty good setup, okay, and we'll come back and talk 169 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 2: a little bit about who these music publishers were and 170 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 2: how they went about their work early on in the 171 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 2: Tenpen Alley era right after this. All right, So we've 172 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 2: been throwing around the term music publishers a lot, and 173 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: that sort of means a different thing now than it 174 00:09:36,679 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 2: did back then. But back then music publishers some of 175 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 2: them wrote songs, to be sure, but generally they did 176 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 2: not a lot of the early publishers out of Tinpan 177 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 2: Alley had backgrounds as salespeople. So there was a guy 178 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 2: named very successful publisher, name Isidore Witmark. He started out 179 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: selling water filters. Another one name Leo Feist, sold corsets. 180 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: Another one named Joe Stern and Edward B. Mark sold 181 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 2: neckties and buttons, and a lot of these people, I 182 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: guess we should point out too, came over from Europe. 183 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 2: A lot were Jewish, some African American songwriters like they 184 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: were minorities kind of for the most part. Early on, 185 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: it feels. 186 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: Like right, and they saw a huge opportunity in this 187 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: music business that was starting to coalesce, because prior to this, 188 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: I mean, there were music publishers, but it was basically 189 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:40,080 Speaker 1: some guy who worked at a printer who had a 190 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: friend who could transpose music by ear and they would 191 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,080 Speaker 1: just take some song that they heard and turn it 192 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: into sheet music and start selling it. Or they worked 193 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: at the music store, and the music store basically did 194 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: the exact same thing. And so everyone was ripping off 195 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: everyone else's songs, and anybody could be a music publisher. 196 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: But when those copyrights started to be come and forced, 197 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: it became much more valuable to invest in original music 198 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,400 Speaker 1: because you could make a lot more money off of it. 199 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: So those a lot of those Jewish immigrants and a 200 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 1: lot of the African American songwriters and composers kind of 201 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:22,239 Speaker 1: coalesced into New York. They came from Boston and Detroit 202 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: and Atlanta, and Saint Louis and all over the country, 203 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: and all those towns lost their publishing houses and they 204 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: all moved to New York and they very specifically moved 205 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: to this one little stretch on twenty eighth Street and 206 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: it became Timpan Alley. 207 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's really interesting to look at like how 208 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 2: it worked back then and how it sort of mirrored 209 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: how like music grew out of that model really and 210 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 2: changed in some ways, but kind of stayed the same 211 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 2: in a lot of ways too. Like you always hear 212 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 2: about music contracts and how terrible they are for rock 213 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 2: musicians or pop musicians, and it was kind kind of 214 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: the same way back then. These these publishers got together. 215 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 2: They created this songwriting factory on this block of buildings 216 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 2: through different companies, and they would get they would recruit 217 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: songwriters to come in. They had different arrangements. Sometimes they 218 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: would just buy it outright from you, including the rights 219 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 2: to change the name of who wrote it. Sometimes they 220 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 2: would have the right to throw one of the other more, 221 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 2: I guess once they had, you know, established themselves another 222 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: co author's name on there. But they would just you know, say, 223 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: write these songs, write these songs, and we're going to 224 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 2: buy them from you, and we're going to try and 225 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 2: make them pop. Like you couldn't put them on the radio, 226 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: so we're going to try and get them popular by 227 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 2: getting them onto vaudeville and on stage and sending not moles, 228 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:52,120 Speaker 2: I guess, but it was almost like early Payola, sending 229 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 2: these performers into vaudeville to sing these songs, to perform 230 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 2: these songs, and people are like, well, that's pretty catchy, 231 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 2: I want that, right. 232 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: That's how they that's how they marketed it, and that 233 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 1: was like the whole thing, Like if you it was 234 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: the first time that that music became an industry because 235 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: there was almost an assembly line feel to it where 236 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: they would have feelers out to find out, like what 237 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: people were into as music at the time. One of 238 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: the one of the early transitions that tim Panale underwent 239 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: was when it started, it was a it was a 240 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: factory for churning out like comedic, often deeply racist songs, 241 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,559 Speaker 1: lots of ballads, just what you think of as super 242 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: old timey songs, right, and then the public started to 243 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,120 Speaker 1: get kind of bored with that and they decided that 244 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,520 Speaker 1: they kind of liked this ragtime thing that the Scott 245 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: Joplin Fella has has started to create and so Tim Panale, 246 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: this is classic. Tim Panale went out figured out how 247 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: to play rag time, started co opting the ragtime genre 248 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: and created pop music. So they took what was a 249 00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: really difficult kind of music. It's called syncopated rhythm, where 250 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: you've got a melody within a rhythm, right, so you 251 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:10,679 Speaker 1: know rag time, right? 252 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: Sure? 253 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: Okay, So they figured out how to take this very 254 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: difficult thing and kind of popify it to make it 255 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: easy for the audience to play. Because again, here's the thing. 256 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,840 Speaker 1: They're not saying, Hey, you're the best of the best 257 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: studio musician. We've got this really tough song over here 258 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: that sounds great, but it's really tough to play. We 259 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: want to pay you to come play it. We're going 260 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: to record it and distribute it onto the radio that 261 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:38,040 Speaker 1: didn't exist yet. They had to figure out how to 262 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: take difficult songs kind of dumb them down into something 263 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:45,760 Speaker 1: catchy and memorable and importantly easy to play, so that 264 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: they could sell that sheet music to local musicians or 265 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: those barber shop cortets, or so that the twelve year 266 00:14:51,680 --> 00:14:53,680 Speaker 1: old at home could play it for the rest of 267 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: their family, and so that is how they kind of 268 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: started to take popular music and make it even more popular. 269 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: They decided what music was popular based on what what 270 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: the what America was starting to get into at the time. 271 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they would there were these musicians called song pluggers. 272 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 2: So how it would work is a music publisher in 273 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 2: ten Panelle would buy a song or the rights to 274 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 2: a song off of a musician who wrote it, maybe 275 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 2: put their own name on it, and then they would 276 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: give that song to a song plugger, who is a 277 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: musician who would go and perform this at a music 278 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: shop that maybe sold pianos or something like that. And 279 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 2: this was pre radio. How they got the music out 280 00:15:36,520 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 2: in the public and it was and it was crazy. 281 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: These song pluggers got money. Irving Berlin started out as 282 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: a song plugger. 283 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: Right, And so it's kind of like if you you know, 284 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: how you go to a grocery store on a Saturday 285 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,280 Speaker 1: and they'll be sitting there giving out samples of something sure, 286 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: and you'll say, oh, this this cheese with this cracker 287 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 1: tastes really good. I'm going to go buy this cheese 288 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: and these crackers. This is the exact same thing, except 289 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: you say, oh, this song sounds really good, I'm going 290 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: to buy the sheet music. That's what music pluggers were for. 291 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: That's how they got the word up, that's how they 292 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:10,040 Speaker 1: advertised the music was to play them. And then another 293 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:11,680 Speaker 1: way to do it, Chuck, is like you were saying, 294 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: they would set vaudeville shows up or musical reviews or 295 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: Broadway shows whatever with these popular songs and these songwriters 296 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: to help get them out that way too, so the 297 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: audiences would go hear these things. So you could hear 298 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: them in the music shop, you could hear them at 299 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: the theater, you might hear them. Well, it's basically it 300 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: is the theater and the music shop where the two 301 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: main venues. Unless I'm forgetting one. 302 00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they would. That was the plugging. But there 303 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:46,880 Speaker 2: was also booming. So, like I said, you had Irving Berlin, 304 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 2: and like George Gershwin started out as a song plugger, 305 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,000 Speaker 2: Al Sherman started out as a song plugger. But if 306 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 2: you wanted to be more aggressive than that, even you 307 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: would do something called booming, which is you would buy 308 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 2: like twenty five tickets to a show. You would have 309 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 2: the plugger up there playing the song, and then those 310 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: twenty five people were plants basically that already knew the song, 311 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 2: that would sing along to it and then everyone, you know, 312 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 2: the only thing better than hearing a great song for 313 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: the first time, And you know, nineteen ten in New 314 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: York City is hearing twenty five people around you singing 315 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: it and you're thinking, how have I been missing out 316 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 2: on this thing? 317 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 3: Right? 318 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,440 Speaker 2: And that may be the first time it was ever 319 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: performed in public. And it was all just a big, 320 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: kind of a big scam. 321 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: It was. It's hilarious though, that that's how you just 322 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: look around and suddenly be overcome with fomo. So you'd 323 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: be into this new song and run out and buy. 324 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: The sheet music I guess early fomo. 325 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: So there was this process. 326 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: To all this, and like you said, like you could 327 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: be like a no name composer who would show up 328 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:52,919 Speaker 1: at tim Panlley with the song that you're trying to sell, 329 00:17:53,160 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: and if it was good, the publisher might buy it, 330 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: but like you said, you would get some sort of 331 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 1: terrible contractor they would buy it out right, take your 332 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,680 Speaker 1: name off of the composition and put their own name 333 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: on there. But they also hired composers I think like 334 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: you were saying too, where they were they were they 335 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: had they had a few hits under their belts, so 336 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: they had a steady gig at the music publisher and 337 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: their contract was a little better, but they were not 338 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: in creative control for the most part, to where the 339 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: music publisher would say, Hey, everybody's into this ragtime, make 340 00:18:23,440 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: me some ragtime songs. Everybody's into this jazz and this 341 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: blues stuff. Make me some bluesy kind of stuff that 342 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: I can turn around and sell. And the competition was 343 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: really fierce among the the in house composers, because just 344 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: because you composed a song doesn't mean it was going 345 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,399 Speaker 1: to be turned around and transcribed into sheet music and 346 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: then people would buy it. Like you, you had to 347 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: basically audition your song to see whether it made it 348 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: to the next level. And so in tim Panelle, and 349 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: this is where it got its name, there would be 350 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: you know, no name composers, house composers, vaudeville acts, all 351 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: running around playing music from these open windows because there 352 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 1: wasn't air conditioning back then, and so at any given 353 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: time you'd walk down Timpanaley and there'd be a dozen 354 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: or scores of different songs all being played on these 355 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: pianos streaming out of the windows onto the street at 356 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: the same time, and that's where that reporter Monroe Rosenfeld, 357 00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: came up with the idea timpanale. He said, when he 358 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: was walking down the street, he was kind of describing. 359 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 3: What that was like. 360 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,879 Speaker 1: He said, it sounded like, you know, a bunch of 361 00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: tim pans being struck at once. 362 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And this whole area of New York, this one 363 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 2: block just really became like a creative well. There were 364 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: vaudeville theaters, there were play theaters, like it was sort 365 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 2: of the earliest incarnation of the theater district before it 366 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,200 Speaker 2: moved toward Times Square. And then other parts of the 367 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: entertainment industry obviously are drawn to that area. Variety Magazine 368 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 2: that's where it first popped up on that block when 369 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 2: it was called The Clipper. The William Morris Tallon Agency 370 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 2: had an office on that block, and it was just 371 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:02,200 Speaker 2: sort of the you know, after I think Austin, Chicago, Cincinnati, 372 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 2: and I think one other city kind of where the 373 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: early seats of the early music industry. It all roundly 374 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,119 Speaker 2: landed in New York and just such a creative area 375 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: and era. 376 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:16,360 Speaker 1: It's so neat to think about it too, because that's 377 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: happened in places before where if you take a bunch 378 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: of creative people and jam them into a small area, 379 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 1: just amazing stuff happens. Like you can do something as 380 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: big as birth a genre of music, or like pop music, 381 00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 1: which is like an umbrella. It's not even a genre. 382 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 1: There's genres underneath pop music, you know, where something that 383 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: big can happen when you get that many creative people 384 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 1: together in one place. 385 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 2: Should we take another break? 386 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:45,800 Speaker 3: Sure? 387 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:47,800 Speaker 2: All right, we'll take another break and we'll talk about 388 00:20:47,840 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 2: some of these songs these composers in the Great American 389 00:20:52,760 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 2: Songbook right after this. All right, So there's money being made. Yeah, 390 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,199 Speaker 2: Tad a lot of money, even for early on. I mean, 391 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,199 Speaker 2: I can't imagine what sheet music costs, but they were 392 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: selling so much of it it added up. Irving Berlin, 393 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: I mean, he went on to start his own music 394 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 2: publishing business, but early on, when he was just pumping 395 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 2: out tunes. In nineteen seventeen, he made about one hundred 396 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 2: thousand dollars a year in royalties. 397 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,639 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's nineteen seventeen dollars too, right. 398 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, And these songs like these are some standards, you know, 399 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:41,719 Speaker 2: it's what's known as the standard American Songbook just like 400 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 2: it's an unofficial designation, but they're considered to be like 401 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: the classics of the early early twentieth century. Like, I mean, 402 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 2: we all still know these songs, stuff like Ain't She Sweet? 403 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 3: I don't know that's Ain't She Sweet? 404 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: You're mucking down the street. What you don't know that song? No? 405 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:04,160 Speaker 3: That one I've not heard? 406 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 2: Oh boy, do you know babyface? Yes, got the cutest 407 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: little baby face. 408 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: Yes, I love that song. It makes me smile. 409 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 2: By the light of the silvery moon. Give my regards 410 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 2: to Broadway. Sure, happy days are here again over there. 411 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:21,480 Speaker 2: A lot of this had to do with like wartime, 412 00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 2: early wartime stuff, right, Sweet Georgia Brown, Take Me out 413 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 2: to the ballgame? 414 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that in particular, we got to say that 415 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: was written by two guys, Jack Norworth and Albert von Tilzer. Yeah, 416 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 1: and they never they'd never seen a ball game before. 417 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: Well maybe that's what they were saying. 418 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 3: But yeah, the original take me. 419 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 2: Out to the ballgame because I've never been right exactly, 420 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 2: And they changed that line. 421 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,679 Speaker 1: But that was so tim Panaley like where it's like 422 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: everybody's into baseball right now, so let's make a song 423 00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: about baseball. You two, we've never seen a baseball game. 424 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,439 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. Make it, make me a song, and 425 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: that's that's how it Take Me Out to the Ballgame 426 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 1: was formed. 427 00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think under one of the like you 428 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 2: said earlier, some of the early work with like kind 429 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 2: of humorous comedy songs. One that still stands out today, 430 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 2: I believe from that genre is Yes, we Have No Bananas, 431 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: which I always thought was kind of funny when I 432 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: was a kid. 433 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 3: It's a little funny, and I guess I still do 434 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 3: if I'm being honest. 435 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 1: There was also Yeah, you can go down this line. 436 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 1: And there's some pretty substantial songs that were written during 437 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: this time, and not all of them were standalone. A 438 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: lot of them, like I said earlier, were created for 439 00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: musical reviews. America the Beautiful was written by Irving Berlin 440 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: for a musical review called Yep, Yep, Yep Hank, which 441 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: no one. 442 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:42,239 Speaker 3: Has heard of. 443 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 2: No one knows that anymore, but. 444 00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: It was meant to be performed and produced by Soldiers. 445 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: I had an eight show run, but the song, obviously, 446 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,919 Speaker 1: America the Beautiful has survived long beyond that because it 447 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: became an American standard. 448 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,119 Speaker 3: So like these these vas. 449 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: That were built around to kind of get the song 450 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: out there to the public faded away, But the songs 451 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: themselves have stood the test of time. 452 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I think he pulled it from that production. 453 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: Or was it in the original production or did he 454 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 2: pull it? 455 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 3: I think it was in the original one. 456 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 2: Well, he eventually pulled it out of the production then 457 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 2: because he thought it was too sentimental. And then that 458 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 2: song went on to be the one that everyone remembers. 459 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, You're right. I'm sorry it didn't show 460 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:30,840 Speaker 1: up in there. But you also said so. You mentioned 461 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: Irving Berlin forming his own publishing house. He was a 462 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: quintessential Rags to Rich's story for Tim Panaley, where he 463 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 1: was like a waiter in a cafe, became a song plugger, 464 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: one of those guys who plays songs to basically his marketing, 465 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: couldn't reacheat music, knew everything by ear, had a friend 466 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: transposed the songs he came up with into actual written music. 467 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,560 Speaker 2: That's a pretty get a little facto it that Irving 468 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: Berlin couldn't read or write music right. 469 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,560 Speaker 1: And then he became a well known composer. And then 470 00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: he became such a well known composer. He opened his 471 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: own publishing house and then started making one hundred thousand 472 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: dollars a year in royalties. 473 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 2: Amazing. 474 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: There was another guy named Charles K. Harris who was 475 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: one of the earlier success stories. I think in eighteen 476 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: ninety three or two, he had a song called After 477 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: the Ball and he just knew it was a gem 478 00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: because he offered it to a publisher and they offered 479 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: him a price for it that he was like, that's 480 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: way too low. I'm going to set up my own 481 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: publishing house. And he did, and he started selling it 482 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: and was making something like twenty five thousand dollars a 483 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: week in eighteen nineties money, which is like seven hundred 484 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 1: grand a week. This guy just went from nobody to 485 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: seven hundred grand a week. Ended up selling five million 486 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: copies of his song After the Ball. And if you 487 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: listen to it now, it's not that good. Frankly, it's not, 488 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: but bully for him. 489 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 2: You know, it's no ancient suite. No, Yeah, it's amazing, man. 490 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: People like popular music hit the world like, you know, 491 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 2: like a lightning bolt from the beginning. 492 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:15,280 Speaker 1: Yes, because it was so ultra tailored for the American public. 493 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: Like again, they would take Ragtime, which was a Scott 494 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:22,440 Speaker 1: Joplin creation, And Scott Joplin was the son of a slave. 495 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: He was an African American. 496 00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of people thought he was white. 497 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: Still to this day, a lot of people think he 498 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: was white. I think because of his name, Frankly, and 499 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: it was the predecessor. Ragtime was the predecessor to jazz. 500 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: And it had like a real like feel to a 501 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 1: real soul. Everybody's heard like some of the original ragtime music, 502 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,199 Speaker 1: like The Entertainer and Maple Leaf rag And if you 503 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,800 Speaker 1: can't immediately bring those to mind, just go to YouTube 504 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 1: and you'll be like, oh, okay, of course I get that. 505 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: But the idea that Tim Panlley could just kind of 506 00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 1: come along and take this cool, deep soul for music 507 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: and opify it basically to make it palatable to audiences, 508 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: in particular white audiences who had the most money at 509 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: the time. That was why it would why it became 510 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: so successful. It was almost dumbed down. It was music 511 00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: that was dumbed down in a way to make it 512 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,160 Speaker 1: appeal to as many people as possible. 513 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, or even worse, co opted by white publishers and 514 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,200 Speaker 2: producers to be used in minstrel shows. Yeah, this version 515 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: of music, this new genre of music that was so 516 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 2: unique in the Harlem Renaissance by Scott Joplin, was co 517 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,880 Speaker 2: opted for minstrel shows. So shameful. 518 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 3: Yeah. 519 00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:40,480 Speaker 1: So there's a real debate going on now about the 520 00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: legacy of Timpanalei in some ways, and some people point 521 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 1: to it and say, look, these guys were churning out 522 00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 1: the most eye poppingly racist songs that that America has 523 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,160 Speaker 1: ever come up with. 524 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were some, to be sure. 525 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: They were, they were coming, they were selling them to 526 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,359 Speaker 1: the masses. And in doing this, because this was the 527 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: origin of popular music, they were really effectively perpetuating racial 528 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: stereotypes and embedding them more than they ever had been 529 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,280 Speaker 1: before because people were not being mass audiences were being 530 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: reached like they were with this early sheet music. And 531 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: so in this respect, tim panale doesn't deserve to be 532 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,479 Speaker 1: revered or respected. 533 00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 2: Or designated as a historical landmark. Is the real fight? 534 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's I guess. 535 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: Recently, as like late last month, I believe, Chuck, there 536 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: was a Landmark Commission City Landmark Commission meeting where this 537 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: was being debated, right. 538 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and so like you said, some people were 539 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 2: saying that. On one hand, other people are saying, yeah, 540 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 2: but so many of these were Jewish immigrants, an ethnic minority, 541 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 2: so many of them were African American songwriters, and tin 542 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 2: Panale was also the home to the first black owned 543 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 2: and operated music publishing business in the country. 544 00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, some people are saying, look like, yes, it was 545 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: taken in co opted to be popular, but so were 546 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 1: operettas and ballots, like that's just what they did. It 547 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: wasn't meant to be offensive to African Americans. And as 548 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, it was basically these Jewish immigrants saying, 549 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 1: I kind of identify with your plight. I want to 550 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 1: preserve and celebrate this and expose this music to as 551 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: many people as possible. And that some people pointed this 552 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: process in Tinpanaley as the way that the African American 553 00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: arts became exposed to the larger the larger population of America. 554 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 3: At the time. 555 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. 556 00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, so that debate's going on. 557 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: That's where the idea of whether or not this area 558 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: should be designated as an historic landmark is falling, right. 559 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, And like you said, it's kind of hard to 560 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: pinpoint an actual death date of tinpan Alley, because these 561 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: things like that happened gradually over time. But technology, like 562 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 2: it has so many other times, kind of killed the 563 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:03,400 Speaker 2: notion of Tin Panaley, didn't it. 564 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: That's a really good point, right, So the radio, it 565 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: was the radio radio killed the old timey sheet music star. 566 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 2: And then video killed the radio star. 567 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 3: Right exactly. 568 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: So again, you didn't need to make sheet music any longer, 569 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,400 Speaker 1: or you certainly didn't have to learn to play sheet 570 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:22,840 Speaker 1: music at home if you wanted to enjoy music, if 571 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: you could just buy a radio. 572 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, people quit buying pianos, and yeah, it's kind of sad, 573 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: it is said. 574 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 1: It would be nice if everybody was walking around and 575 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: knew how to play a piano, like hotel lounges would 576 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 1: be a lot more interesting, right, Yeah, But that's I mean, 577 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: once the radio came along, everybody said, so long sheet music. 578 00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: I hated you all along, but you were my only option. 579 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: Now I can listen to like Benny Goodman and all 580 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: of these other cats who are super hip and really 581 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 1: good at what they're doing, and I want to listen 582 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 1: to their music. And not only did technology kill Timpanale 583 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: in this sheet music publishing industry, but It also changed 584 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 1: the the genre a little bit. It kind of skewed 585 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: it more into swing and some of this yeah big band, 586 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that came out of the thirties 587 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 1: onward or that was really kind of where that transition went. 588 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you ever been somewhere where they have a 589 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 2: public piano and seen someone just walk by and sit 590 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: down and blow minds? 591 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: Didn't you see Greg Almond do that? 592 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: Oh my god? 593 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:26,240 Speaker 3: No. 594 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: If you know someone who saw that, please try and 595 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: remember who it was, because I need to hear that story. 596 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 3: I'll try to remember. I can't remember who it was. 597 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 2: That's pretty amazing. 598 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 3: Okay, I don't think I'm making this up. 599 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 1: Let me let me go back through my specific mental 600 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:42,760 Speaker 1: role of DEECKX. 601 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 3: But have you ever seen that? 602 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 2: Sure, just like you're I mean, not Greg Almond, but 603 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: I've just seen your regular average person sit down at 604 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:53,640 Speaker 2: a piano and like, wow, Someone New York does this 605 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: from time to time. They'll have them on a sidewalk 606 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: or in a park or something. And in Atlanta they 607 00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,080 Speaker 2: have one over in Atlantic Station. I've seen people to 608 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 2: it there and it's always just really cool. And that 609 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 2: makes me miss the fact that piano like a lot 610 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: more people used to learn piano than they do now. 611 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 1: I think I would love to know how to play 612 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: the piano me too, for that time, for that very reason, 613 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: because I'd love to be able to sit down and 614 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: just want to play that guy so bad right someday 615 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 1: it's not too late. 616 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 2: I remember the first time I saw it was at 617 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 2: a student council retreat in high school. There was this one. 618 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 2: You know, all the student councils from the county get 619 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 2: together over the course of a weekend or a week 620 00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: and do stupid stuff and learn about leadership. But there 621 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: was there's always like this one guy on student council 622 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 2: at another school where you're like, man, he didn't seem 623 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 2: like a student council type. 624 00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 3: He seems like he's thirty. 625 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,560 Speaker 2: This guy did, and he was on student council at 626 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 2: some other school. But he was like, you know, had 627 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,560 Speaker 2: like the rat T shirt and it was just sort 628 00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:54,400 Speaker 2: of a like a dirty metal head. 629 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 3: The bad boy of student counsel. 630 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 2: He totally was. And there was a piano and one 631 00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 2: of the lobbies of the dormitory is where we stayed 632 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 2: at Barry College in Rome, Georgia, and on the very 633 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 2: last day there were a bunch of people hanging out 634 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 2: in there, and this dude goes over and sits down 635 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 2: and just crushes it. And I remember seeing the girls 636 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: in the room and thinking that guy has got it 637 00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: all going on, right, Like that's the key man. 638 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:22,959 Speaker 1: And that boy and the rat T shirt grew up 639 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 1: to be Greg allman. 640 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 3: Have you have you ever been. 641 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: To Siggold's Request Room now or that you and me's 642 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: friend Joe McGuinty owns it. He's a co owner of it, 643 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,640 Speaker 1: and he plays piano there. It's just like sing along 644 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 1: piano karaoke. Oh wow, and it is amazing. 645 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 3: I cannot believe you haven't been there yet. You have? 646 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: So does one person play the piano and everyone sings along? 647 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,480 Speaker 1: Joe McGuinty plays and then no, there like like people 648 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: can sing along if you want, but it's really one 649 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: person going out there and doing karaoke with Joe accompanying 650 00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: you on the piano. 651 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 2: Oh okay, well I've done I've done the rock and 652 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 2: roll live band karaoke before. Oh yeah, here in Atlanta, 653 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 2: which is a lot of fun. 654 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 3: Okay, do you where do you do that? 655 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 2: Uh? Somewhere in the Highlands. I think the dark Horse. 656 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 3: Maybe Okay, yeah, that sounds right. 657 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. I went for my birthday a couple of years 658 00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 2: ago and did Cheap Tricks Surrender and did a pretty 659 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 2: good job, if I may say so. 660 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: Is that Surrender Parentheses? Dream Police? 661 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 2: Those are two different songs. 662 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 3: Okay? Is it surrender Parentheses? I Want You to Want Me? 663 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:29,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the one. Okay, I've heard that song, but 664 00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 2: it's funny at the one in Atlanta, there's you know, 665 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 2: the DJ English Nick. 666 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 3: No, wait, was he on like the radio like radio DJ? 667 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? He still is sure English Nick in Atlanta. Yeah, 668 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: he hosts it and he is the the the emergency 669 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: backup if you're no good, because being bad at karaoke 670 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: is no fun, but being bad at live being karaoke 671 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 2: is really no fun for anyone. So he stands back 672 00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:57,720 Speaker 2: there and if you're not very good, he's singing along 673 00:34:57,719 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 2: with you, and he will just give the signal to 674 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,360 Speaker 2: sort of do a little upping of his vocals and 675 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 2: lowering of the other vocals. 676 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 3: Is it like the slice across your neck like that? 677 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,200 Speaker 2: Nah? I mean I think it's just like an eye signal. 678 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 2: I got it, and I remember being nervous. I was like, oh, 679 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 2: man if they bring up English Nick during surrendering and 680 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 2: be mortified. But they didn't, and afterward he gave me 681 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: a nod like a good job, buddy. 682 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,359 Speaker 1: Oh oh you got the nod from English Nick. 683 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it means a lot. 684 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 3: I have the opposite story. 685 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 2: Oh what happened? 686 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:29,520 Speaker 1: I went to Claremont Lounge to do karaoke years back, 687 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,360 Speaker 1: chose to do Darling Nicky. 688 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:33,760 Speaker 2: Oh interesting. 689 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: In the middle, the karaoke DJ breaks in and goes, 690 00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 1: It's like William Shatner singing, isn't. 691 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 2: It a Oh my god? 692 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,760 Speaker 1: You mean was there supporting dancing but really just hanging 693 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: on by your fingernails? You know? 694 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,360 Speaker 2: You got it? Stopped and insulted mid. 695 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,520 Speaker 3: Song, mid song, but I finished buddy good. Yeah. 696 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 2: I would literally pay one hundred dollars to have seen that. 697 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,760 Speaker 3: I wager it would have been worth two fifty. Okay, 698 00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 3: it was pretty pretty bad. 699 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,720 Speaker 2: Do we have anything else on Tinpan Alley? 700 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 3: I forgot what we were talking about? Shuck, Well we should. 701 00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:13,280 Speaker 2: We're not going to get into it here. We should 702 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 2: do a full show on as CAP though. 703 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:18,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, because yet another thing that Irving Berlin did was 704 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: create as CAP the American Society of composers and performers. 705 00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 3: Right, I think producers producers. 706 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: Okay, man, I didn't even have it in front of me, 707 00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:33,160 Speaker 1: but they basically protect and register copyrights for artists. 708 00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. It's kind of so convoluted to these days. 709 00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it definitely deserves its own thing. 710 00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: But that was another thing that was born out of 711 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: timpan Alley. 712 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,799 Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know what, I am living in the 713 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: future now because I have a turntable now, finally again 714 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 2: after many many years of not having one that I 715 00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 2: can play wirelessly throughout all the speakers in my home. Oh, 716 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 2: isn't that amazing? 717 00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 3: That is the future for sure, that you can. 718 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 2: Actually do that, and it sounds great. And now I 719 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 2: just went to the record store for the first time 720 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 2: in a long time yesterday and bought thirteen records. I 721 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 2: traded in probably five hundred CDs to get thirteen records. 722 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 2: He was like, I'll give you one hundred and thirty 723 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 2: bucks for the lot, and I was like, fine. 724 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: Fine, just get these stupid ninety CDs away from me. 725 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 2: Now. They were great, but it was just I felt 726 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:25,959 Speaker 2: like I should pay him to take all these off 727 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 2: my hands. 728 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,400 Speaker 3: Did you still have the jewel cases? 729 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,160 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they were all there, something jeweled up and 730 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 2: so yeah, I bought records for the first time. And 731 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,160 Speaker 2: I'm going to make that a when we go on 732 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,640 Speaker 2: tour now and when I travel, I'm going to make 733 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: it a point to go into local record stores again. 734 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 3: I think that's great. 735 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 2: I really really had a good time thumbing through records. 736 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 2: It was a lot of fun. 737 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 3: I'll go with you, text me, yeah, let's do it. Okay. 738 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: I think that's it for timpan Alley, rip Timpanelle. Depending 739 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: on your viewpoint, I guess, yeah. 740 00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 2: There needs to be a great I know there was 741 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: a movie in the forties called ten pan Alley, but 742 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 2: someone should do a really good look at the early 743 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 2: burgeoning film I'm sorry, movie into almost oh boy, music 744 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,440 Speaker 2: industry about ten Penalty. 745 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that would be great. There's so many characters involved. 746 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 2: Just put Hugh Jackman in a Sharknado in it. 747 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 3: Yep, we're all good. 748 00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:19,760 Speaker 2: And by the way, you got called out for bringing 749 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 2: back bread. 750 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 3: I did. 751 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: I said in some episode that I think the Diving 752 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,400 Speaker 1: Bell episode, that we should bring Bread back, and I 753 00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:28,839 Speaker 1: guess that's what the kids all say. 754 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,759 Speaker 2: Now. I didn't realize that, but like at least ten 755 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:34,800 Speaker 2: people emailed and said, yeah, millennials are talking about getting 756 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 2: that bread. Yep, it's like they are. 757 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,359 Speaker 1: I guess so I like to think that I had 758 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing to do with that. 759 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:42,760 Speaker 2: No, I bet, I bet you were the seed? 760 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 3: Do you think so? You never know? Man, that'd be cool. 761 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:47,440 Speaker 1: Before we go to the chuck, I do have one 762 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: more thing, well, I have to give a shout out 763 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,919 Speaker 1: to what I considered the greatest song to come out 764 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 1: of Timpanaley, and I believe it was an Irving Berlin song. 765 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,759 Speaker 1: Yeah it was Let's have another cup of Have. 766 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,319 Speaker 2: You heard this soul? We use that for something, didn't we? 767 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,319 Speaker 1: I don't remember. We probably did because it's prominent in 768 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,839 Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies of all time, Paper Moon. 769 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 1: That was a great song. I love that song so much. 770 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: If you haven't ever heard that song, go listen to 771 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:18,040 Speaker 1: it because it's one of the most just blindly optimistic 772 00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:23,120 Speaker 1: songs of all time and it's about coffee yep and pi. Okay, 773 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: now that's it. Now I've got nothing else. If you 774 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,959 Speaker 1: want to know more about Tim pan Alley, you can 775 00:39:29,160 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: go read up on it and maybe follow whether it's 776 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 1: going to get designated as in a story. 777 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 3: Clan mark or not, we'll find out. In the meantime, 778 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 3: it's time for listener mail. 779 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,439 Speaker 2: So this is just a very sweet email from someone. Hey, guys, 780 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,400 Speaker 2: I'm sure you received emails like this all the time, 781 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 2: but I would be remiss if I didn't thank you 782 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 2: for all the wonderful work you do. I've had a 783 00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: really tough time with mental illness, and there have been 784 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: a lot of nights your wonderful podcast staved off panic 785 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,919 Speaker 2: attacks or worse. Wow, thank you for keeping me calm 786 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,200 Speaker 2: and educated, and thank you for making me feel safe 787 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 2: even in periless circumstances. Thank you for giving me something 788 00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:06,960 Speaker 2: to talk about when my depression has kept me in 789 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: a fog. Without your massive backlog and seemingly endless supply 790 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:15,040 Speaker 2: of fresh, fascinating subjects, I surely would be lost. Spend 791 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: some time researching, and I can truly appreciate just how 792 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,279 Speaker 2: much time and energy go into becoming familiar enough with 793 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 2: something to explain it as succinctly as you guys do 794 00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 2: your superheroes and rock stars. From the bottom of my heart, 795 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,360 Speaker 2: thank you for the wonderful work you do. You have 796 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 2: truly saved me. Kindest and warmest regards Georgia. That is 797 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:35,800 Speaker 2: really lovely, Georgia. If we're ever in a town near you, 798 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: you are guests listed. 799 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,879 Speaker 1: Yes, Wow, Chuck, I think that was a really good, 800 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,879 Speaker 1: good idea. Thanks a lot, Georgia. That was a very 801 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: sweet email. We appreciate it. We're glad we could help 802 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 1: in some small measure. Thank you very much for the kudos. 803 00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:52,239 Speaker 1: If you want to send us kudos, we love that. 804 00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 2: Kind of thing, including kudos. 805 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:57,400 Speaker 3: The candy bar Yeah, I remember those, send us a kudos. 806 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 3: They were great. Yeah. 807 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,080 Speaker 1: I don't know if somebody send us one if it 808 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 1: would still be so great. 809 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 2: Are they not around? 810 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:05,359 Speaker 3: No? 811 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 1: I think like they would have been manufactured in nineteen 812 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: eighty six or something like that. 813 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,800 Speaker 2: I don't keep up with the candy bar scene. 814 00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying. They're not around anymore. 815 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:14,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I know. 816 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 1: Okay, So wow, that was a little sidetrack on kudos, 817 00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:18,440 Speaker 1: wasn't that. 818 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:18,879 Speaker 2: Yes. 819 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with this, you 820 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 1: can go on to stuff youshould know dot com and 821 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,560 Speaker 1: find all of our social links there, and you can 822 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: also send us an email to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio 823 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: dot com. You know, Stuff you should Know is a 824 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. 825 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,960 Speaker 2: For more podcasts My heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 826 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.