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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Andy and Samantha, and welcome to Stephane

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Speaker 1: Never told your production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And welcome to our series on Christianity. We're just gonna

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Speaker 2: leave it at that. We are now on part six

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Speaker 2: of Christianity, Religious Trauma and the Marginalized Community aka Western

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Speaker 2: Christianity and how it affects the Marginalized People, and so

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Speaker 2: many more titles that I've given it at this point.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, the series just keeps growing. Every time I

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Speaker 2: think I'm going to be talking about two or three

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Speaker 2: things in a series, it ends up being just one thing.

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Speaker 2: And that's where we are today once again. But before

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Speaker 2: we start, there is content warning. We are talking about

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Speaker 2: religious trauma, sickness, domestic violence, and divorce. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: divorce can be a sticky subject, especially if you're going

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Speaker 2: through one or you're going through bad parts in your

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Speaker 2: marriage and you don't want to hear about it. We're

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Speaker 2: talking all about divorce today, So go ahead and skip

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Speaker 2: this one, just so you know. And as a quick review, Annie,

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Speaker 2: because I know I've been stringing you along in this

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Speaker 2: entire series. As I'm like, hey, we'll do this is

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Speaker 2: another day or longer than I thought let's just do

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Speaker 2: this quick review. We've talked about women in Western Christian

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Speaker 2: communities and traditions, religious trauma, which is you know, present

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Speaker 2: all throughout, the misogyny that heavily influences this culture, the

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Speaker 2: toxicity of purity culture, which also seems to be a

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Speaker 2: whole topic in every single one of our episodes, sexual

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Speaker 2: abuse in Southern Baptist Convention, Courting marriage and motherhood, which

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Speaker 2: was a fun one. And today we are continuing down

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Speaker 2: that look of relationships, I guess, with a look at

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Speaker 2: Western Christianity and divorce. And right now we are going

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Speaker 2: to talk pretty in depth about divorce. Some of it

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Speaker 2: doesn't really have to do with religion. We're just kind

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Speaker 2: of talking about so the process and some of the

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Speaker 2: conversations and statistics. This is mainly applied to the United States,

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Speaker 2: because I know, and we want to come back because

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Speaker 2: we had a fun conversation, and I say fun in

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Speaker 2: that we were both like, huh, I wonder what this is?

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Speaker 2: What this is about? How to get a divorce?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I didn't know that there were all these

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Speaker 1: stipulations that you can't just get a divorce.

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Speaker 2: Well, so we're going to talk about the no fault

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Speaker 2: divorce in a minute. Apparently there's other things that have

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Speaker 2: been put in place for a while, but it's about

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Speaker 2: how people can test things and how it gets messy.

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Speaker 2: So and different states have different rules and different belief systems,

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Speaker 2: and different kind of communities in denominations also have their

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Speaker 2: own rules. Yeah, but all of that, and then different

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Speaker 2: countries have their own rules as well. So we're centering

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Speaker 2: this around the United States. And yes, eventually it does

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Speaker 2: come back to how Christianity handles divorce as well, so

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Speaker 2: I promise this all applies. So before we start, I

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Speaker 2: kind of wanted to talk about my personal experience about

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Speaker 2: divorce in my church that I grew up with, because

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Speaker 2: this is a very personal subject growing up very religious

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Speaker 2: and coming out of religion as I knew it. And

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Speaker 2: I've seen the emails that y'all have been sending about this.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I know people have been connecting

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Speaker 2: with what I've been saying, as well as people who

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Speaker 2: are still involved in the church and finding their own path,

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Speaker 2: and it's beautiful. Thank you for those messages. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: I kind of want to talk about what I experienced,

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Speaker 2: and again, my church is a little different. It's not

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Speaker 2: big and that is part of the Southern Baptist Convention.

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Speaker 2: It's not a part of the Presbyterian Churches. It's not

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Speaker 2: a part of any of those denominations. It kind of

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Speaker 2: has an independent feel about it and it's very local.

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Speaker 2: So this experience can be unique in that way. But

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Speaker 2: I feel like overall, especially when it comes to old

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Speaker 2: school way of thinking and when we talk about the

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Speaker 2: traveling preachers and all of that, this is kind of

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Speaker 2: that circuit that this is the influence that fell onto

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Speaker 2: my community, like that that hell five brimstone level. So,

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Speaker 2: growing up in a small town in Georgia, the word

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Speaker 2: divorce had so many implications. It was a sin, and

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna put a capital s sin. Divorce was not

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Speaker 2: only a personal failure, but a moral failure and a

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Speaker 2: failure on your family, one that had to be answered

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Speaker 2: in front of the church. Dixie Church, though in my experience,

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Speaker 2: the members did not necessarily have to get permission from

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Speaker 2: the church, but oftentimes had to go after the fact

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Speaker 2: to face the deacons or leaders, typically men of the church,

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Speaker 2: and if they are not satisfied with the answer, you

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Speaker 2: would be reprimended and oftentimes expelled from that church. So

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Speaker 2: your membership would be done, and I don't As a kid,

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Speaker 2: when I heard membership your name was in the book,

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a literal thing. I don't think

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Speaker 2: it is. I don't know, but that's how. That's how

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Speaker 2: I pictured this, because I will say when I was

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Speaker 2: quote unquote saved became a member, I didn't sign anything,

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Speaker 2: so I don't know how that happened. I did say

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Speaker 2: I wanted to be a part of this church in

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Speaker 2: front of the members. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I bet churches do that differently. I

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Speaker 1: feel like my church had like a book of memberships.

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Speaker 2: Yea, there may be one. I really don't know, but

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Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't And then they had to take letters,

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Speaker 2: like if they wanted to go to a different church,

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Speaker 2: they had to take their letter. And I was like,

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Speaker 2: is that physical? Is that a physical thing? And I've

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Speaker 2: never personally seen it though, so I don't know it's

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Speaker 2: the whole thing, but yeah, the level of shame placed

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Speaker 2: on people getting divorced is overwhelming. The way they looked

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Speaker 2: down on divorce and even in pragice, the outside of

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Speaker 2: marriage and God forbid abortion was extreme. Having an affair

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Speaker 2: or even even abusing a spouse was less shameful, mostly

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Speaker 2: justifying it as a quote mistake. Even again, we talked

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Speaker 2: about it with people hiding sexual abuse within the church,

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Speaker 2: hiding all of those things and being like they made

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Speaker 2: a mistake of rewording it. They send against their marriage

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Speaker 2: instead of being no, you raped somebody, that's that's bad.

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Speaker 2: But I will say maybe murder would be considered on

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Speaker 2: that level, but only if that murder was not justified

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Speaker 2: for a holy reason, and sometimes even excusing husbands who

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Speaker 2: killed their wives. Recent articles written about the man who

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Speaker 2: killed his entire family had so many excerpts talking about

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Speaker 2: how godly he was and how attentive he was to

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Speaker 2: his church, his family, his mom and dad, siblings made

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Speaker 2: sure that his obituary and messages from acquaintances only acknowledged

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Speaker 2: how godly and christian like he was, even having the

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Speaker 2: audacity to say he loved his murdered family and fought

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Speaker 2: to keep them together, never admitting to his abusive and

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Speaker 2: overall deadly treatment of them. It was horrifying, and if

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Speaker 2: I remember correctly, his church supported that statement. Oh yeah, wow, yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then you look at murders like the Atlantis spallshootings

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Speaker 2: and murders of so many quick people that have often

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Speaker 2: been praised by extremist conservatives and Christian nationalists. Again, we're

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Speaker 2: talking about recently, any of the Black Lives Matter protest

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Speaker 2: murders that have happened, whether it's I don't even want

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Speaker 2: to talk about him, Kyle was his face. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to acknowledge him, or people like that. The dude

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Speaker 2: in Texas who used his vehicle to hurt people, they've

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Speaker 2: been praising him instead of acknowledging, Hey, this is bad.

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Speaker 2: Why are you condoning this? Yeah, so it isn't shocking

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Speaker 2: that morality is judged harsher than actual murder and abuse.

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Speaker 2: But that's a different episode. I was going to talk

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Speaker 2: about it in this episode, but I didn't have time.

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Speaker 2: We don't have time for that, so that's gonna be

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Speaker 2: a whole different conversation. Yeah, And my parents have been

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Speaker 2: together for over fifty years now, and I've mentioned it

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Speaker 2: before that they were really happily married. I think they

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Speaker 2: really the harshest storms together. They've beat the odds and

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure they'll die together. And I don't mean

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Speaker 2: like they're they're gonna make a pact or anything like

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Speaker 2: if one goes, the other one is gonna follow soon after,

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Speaker 2: and that's like, that's the happiest thing I could think

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Speaker 2: for them, so they don't have to be without each other.

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Speaker 2: But my siblings are a whole different story, and I'm

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Speaker 2: not gonna get too into their stuff, but I will

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Speaker 2: say each one went through their own messy divorce with

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Speaker 2: an unhealthy dose of guilt, but each would say they're

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Speaker 2: happier and don't regret their decisions. I think our church

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Speaker 2: was shocked and a lot of judgment was passed. It

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Speaker 2: was a rocky time for our family. The amount of

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Speaker 2: people who have known us all of our lives, have

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Speaker 2: seen us grow up in that church, who actually turn

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Speaker 2: their backs on our family was astounding. It was and

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Speaker 2: I was young. I was I guess it was middle

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Speaker 2: school when things were happening, and to see that reaction

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Speaker 2: from somewhere that I thought I was loved was a

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Speaker 2: chocking moment, so much so that we didn't talk to

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Speaker 2: those people, and we still don't talk to those people

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Speaker 2: till this day. It's been more than a decade since

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Speaker 2: these incidents. More has probably longer. It's been a long

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Speaker 2: long time, probably twenty years for some of these things

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Speaker 2: I don't know, and it caused a huge divide in

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Speaker 2: our church community. They took size and made sure you

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Speaker 2: knew which side they were on. If they didn't take

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Speaker 2: a side, it was because they felt sorry for us,

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Speaker 2: but didn't want to say it to our face, because

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Speaker 2: they didn't want the other people who were judging us

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Speaker 2: to feel like they were taking side. So it was really, really,

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Speaker 2: really interesting. It was bitter, and it was gross, and

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Speaker 2: it was very unforgiving, and it didn't matter the reason.

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Speaker 2: It didn't matter what the justification was. It was divorced

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Speaker 2: and that was bad. And my family wasn't the only

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Speaker 2: one that went through this. Any divorced individual felt that

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Speaker 2: really harsh thing of judgment that many of the elders

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Speaker 2: felt justified in passing and may even call them out

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Speaker 2: during sermons. Many of these people fled from the church,

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Speaker 2: feeling unwelcomed in ex community and isolated themselves away from

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Speaker 2: any of the people of that church, literally hid away

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Speaker 2: from some of the members. But instead of being angry

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Speaker 2: at the people who felt that they had to the

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Speaker 2: authority to shame anyone and everyone, they just felt guilty

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Speaker 2: and felt like they deserved this and for so many

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Speaker 2: felt like this ruined their lives. I will my family

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Speaker 2: again are at the end of like understanding what they

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Speaker 2: had to do. They had to do and they can't

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Speaker 2: change people's minds. But so many others let this ruin

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Speaker 2: their lives. And I'm not exaggerating. They wouldn't even come

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Speaker 2: to the parking lot of the church because they felt

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Speaker 2: that ashamed, and if they did, they made sure to

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Speaker 2: stay in the car and have the windows rolled up

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Speaker 2: so no one would see them. And I know many

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Speaker 2: have felt a shame and judgment and it's old fashioned

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Speaker 2: those the times have changed, the traditions and moral judgments

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Speaker 2: still remain. Like I said, we don't talk to these people.

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Speaker 2: So with that bitterness in mind, who I will say.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a partial reason why I'm not married

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Speaker 2: and I don't care about men age because I've seen

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Speaker 2: what people do in this level of like I can

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Speaker 2: judge you if they go wrong. But right, so we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about it, and we're going to talk

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Speaker 2: about it. Is I given all the personal accounts in

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Speaker 2: a more statistical way? First?

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, So when it comes to divorce, the

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Speaker 1: statistics do you vary? Although most of us have heard

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Speaker 1: that almost fifty percent of marriages end in divorce. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to what the numbers are really and

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Speaker 1: what are the numbers when it comes to gender and

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Speaker 1: to religion, specifically to Western Christianity, that's a bit harder

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Speaker 1: to pin down too.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: Just recently, Forbes published an article titled Revealing Divorced Statistics

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Speaker 1: in twenty twenty three, and we wanted to share some

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Speaker 1: of the findings that they reported. The half of the

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Speaker 1: marriages ending in divorce statistic actually only applies to first marriages,

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Speaker 1: but for those who maybe in their second or third marriage,

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Speaker 1: which is the highest divorce rate around to seventy three percent,

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Speaker 1: they're more likely to get divorced. The average length of

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Speaker 1: a marriage before divorce is eight years.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: However, the divorce rates have gone down over the years,

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Speaker 1: with the exception of a small spike during lockdown and

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Speaker 1: the initial pandemic, but so have the rates of marriage.

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Speaker 2: Right, But again, who is getting divorced? It looks like

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Speaker 2: people who have friends that are divorced are more likely

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Speaker 2: to get divorced. You're gonna get influenced. O't be streaming

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Speaker 2: whatever for me again, I just don't get married. The

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Speaker 2: remarrying thing is a factor. More boomers are getting divorced,

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Speaker 2: with an increase of forty six percent divorce rate for

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Speaker 2: ages fifty five to sixty four, which I found interesting.

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Speaker 2: But the average age of people getting divorced is forty

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Speaker 2: six for men and forty four for women. So I'm

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Speaker 2: not gonna prime again because I'm not married. I guess

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Speaker 2: people with high school education are less are more likely

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Speaker 2: to get divorced as well. So why are they getting divorced?

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Speaker 2: The number one reason is lack of commitment, followed by

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Speaker 2: infidelity and affairs, And again, the final straw is often

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Speaker 2: something specific like domestic violence, affairs, and substance abuse. But

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Speaker 2: the article also writes, quote interestingly, couples often disagree on

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Speaker 2: what the final straw was that led to the end

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Speaker 2: of their marriage. In fact, not a single couple reported

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Speaker 2: the same deciding issue as the ultimate reason for the

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Speaker 2: end of their marriage, which I think says a lot

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Speaker 2: to the communication part. Yes, I think it does as well.

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Speaker 1: One other interesting statistic before we talk about the religious portion,

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Speaker 1: women are far more likely to initiate the divorce. According

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Speaker 1: to that Forbes report, sixty nine percent of divorces are

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Speaker 1: initiated by women, and if you break it down specifically,

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Speaker 1: the report stated that seven out of ten dissolutions are

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Speaker 1: initiated by women, and this is based on heterosexual relationships.

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Speaker 1: But there's a lot of conversations recently on why women

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Speaker 1: are leaving. In a twenty twenty two BBC article titled

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Speaker 1: why women file for divorce more than men, they talk

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Speaker 1: about different factors as to why women are leaving and

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Speaker 1: here are some of the reasons. Being able to be independent.

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Speaker 1: Unlike the old traditional ways of men being breadwinners, women

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Speaker 1: are more educated and more successful in their careers and

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Speaker 1: have become more ambitious. As the article says, quote, women's

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Speaker 1: entry into the workforce enabled them to leave unhappy marriages

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Speaker 1: for the first time. They were no longer financially bound

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Speaker 1: to remain in abusive partnerships or relationships where their needs

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Speaker 1: were not being met, and women thus began to initiate

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Speaker 1: divorces at greater scale. And it goes on quote This

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Speaker 1: also helps explain why women with university level education are

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Speaker 1: so much more likely to end a marriage across cultures

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Speaker 1: and geographies. Women who are economically able to take care

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Speaker 1: of themselves, which usually is tied to higher education levels

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Speaker 1: are more likely to initiate divorce than women who are

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Speaker 1: unable to economically sustain themselves and their children, as Heidi

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Speaker 1: car a psychologist and expert on domestic violence at the

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Speaker 1: US based Education Development Center right.

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Speaker 2: And on top of that, there are also emotional factors

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Speaker 2: between the social construction of women being more of the

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Speaker 2: emotional caregivers as well as being more socially constructed to

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Speaker 2: be emotionally intelligent. Women typically have higher expectations than what

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Speaker 2: is being met emotionally by the husbands, and again we

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Speaker 2: are talking heteronormative relationships and standards. Here's a long quote

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Speaker 2: from the BBC article. For many women, the expectations they

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Speaker 2: have when they intermarriage may fail to match up to reality.

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Speaker 2: Experts say they often have a higher expectation of how

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Speaker 2: a partner will meet their emotional needs than men, which

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Speaker 2: can lead to disappointment post wedding. Gliza fort Martinez, specialists

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Speaker 2: in conflict resolutions, says because men are usually socialized to

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Speaker 2: have lower emotional intelligence than women, this can lead to

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Speaker 2: female partners feeling unsupported and doing much of the emotional

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Speaker 2: labor in the relationship, which also means women are more Finally,

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Speaker 2: attuned to problems in relationship red flags, and their tendency

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Speaker 2: to be the primary communicators and empathizers means that they

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Speaker 2: may also be the first to raise issues, perhaps ultimately

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Speaker 2: resulting in separation or divorce. Women also tend to gain

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Speaker 2: fewer emotional benefits from marriage, which could make single life

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Speaker 2: seem more appealing. While married men experience multiple perks, including

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Speaker 2: living longer and earning more money, women don't usually benefit

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Speaker 2: from their relationships in the same way. Instead, they bear

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Speaker 2: the brunch of household and child rearing labor, which can

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Speaker 2: leave working women quote overwhelmed in stress as fort Martinez.

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Speaker 2: So in another article written specifically from a diverse law firm,

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Speaker 2: the Women as Law Firm, they talk about the factor

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Speaker 2: of men not paying attention to their own mental health needs,

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Speaker 2: which often leaves the wives taking on more emotional responsibility.

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Speaker 2: So here's a quote from their article. By not taking

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Speaker 2: care of their own mental health or working on their

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Speaker 2: communication skills, women find themselves taking on more emotional responsibility. Occasionally,

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Speaker 2: they end up being the only emotional support for the

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Speaker 2: entire family without the assistance of their partner. This emotional

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Speaker 2: burden takes its toll on women. They often feel alone

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Speaker 2: and as they have no support system within their marriage,

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Speaker 2: the mental, physical, and emotional toll of that overburdening responsibility

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Speaker 2: is a major contributing factor when women are considering divorce.

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Speaker 1: Then there's also the social factor. One thing we've seen

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Speaker 1: in heterosexual relationships a lot is that men do not

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Speaker 1: have many close friends.

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Speaker 2: We've talked about that before.

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Speaker 1: It is more likely that women continue and maintain close friendships.

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Speaker 1: Another quote from that BBC article said women quote have

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Speaker 1: a better support system both to discuss any marital issues

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Speaker 1: as well as to ease the transition back into single life.

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Speaker 1: It's also possible these friendships make divorce seem like a

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Speaker 1: more plausible option. Research suggests that if a close friend

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Speaker 1: gets divorced, people's own chances of divorcing rise by seventy

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Speaker 1: five percent.

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Speaker 2: The influencing there.

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Speaker 1: There you go, and one of the other reasons why

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Speaker 1: women may be initiating the Great divorce is just simply

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Speaker 1: for a resolution. The BBC article rights, filing for divorce

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Speaker 1: isn't the same as ending a marriage. While research shows

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Speaker 1: women in heterosexual marriages are more likely to initiate the breakup,

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Speaker 1: there are also women who didn't choose in their relationship

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Speaker 1: but want our need to formalize the split. Nonetheless, quote,

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Speaker 1: women tend to be more motivated than men to resolve

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Speaker 1: their marital status, says Katie Spooner, partner and head of

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Speaker 1: family law at Winkworth Sherwood, London. She says, based on

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Speaker 1: her client record, most men are happy to remain separated

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Speaker 1: unless there is a new relationship or particular imperative to

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Speaker 1: sort their finances.

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Speaker 2: There is a reason where men may be one to

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Speaker 2: file for divorce instead of women, and that's because of illness.

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Speaker 2: One of the first things that pop up when we

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Speaker 2: research divorce in marriages has been articles on men leaving

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Speaker 2: women due to illness. In fact, when I put in

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Speaker 2: Google men divorce, it automatically auto filled with sick wives,

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Speaker 2: which made me very angry. This is even being talked

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Speaker 2: about on TikTok. I've seen this often and it hurts me.

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Speaker 2: It hurts my feelings. So what's happening? So in a

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Speaker 2: two thousand and nine Ruters article titled men more likely

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Speaker 2: than women to leave a partner with cancer, they write

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Speaker 2: women are six times more likely to end up separated

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Speaker 2: or divorced if they are diagnosed with cancer or multiple sclerosis,

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Speaker 2: then if their male partners were facing the same illness,

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Speaker 2: and this is according to a US study. The study

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Speaker 2: confirmed earlier research of a divorce or separation rate among

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Speaker 2: cancer patients of eleven point six percent, similar to the

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Speaker 2: general population, but found the rate jumped to twenty point

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Speaker 2: eight percent when the women was sick versus two point

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Speaker 2: nine percent when the man was ill.

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Speaker 1: And apparently, fourteen years later, that hasn't changed. In another

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Speaker 1: article written for today dot Com, men are more likely

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Speaker 1: to lead their wives if sickness is involved. Here's the

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Speaker 1: quote from that article. They decided to do a study

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Speaker 1: after noticing divorce appeared to occur almost exclusively when the

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Speaker 1: wife is the disease afflicted partner. The phenomenon was called

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Speaker 1: partner abandonment and Patients with serious medical illness. The results

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Speaker 1: were based on five hundred and fifteen patients at three

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Speaker 1: medical centers who had a brain tumor, cancer or multiple

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Speaker 1: sclerosis and were married at the time of diagnosis. About

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Speaker 1: half were women. When the patients were followed for four

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Speaker 1: to five years to see if their marital status change,

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Speaker 1: it turned out the woman was the affected spouse in

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Speaker 1: almost ninety percent of separations. With the female gender found

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Speaker 1: to be the strongest predicator of separation or divorce. And

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Speaker 1: in that article, the author of the study explains men

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Speaker 1: may be very well equipped to be primary providers, but

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Speaker 1: not so well equipped to be primary caregivers. Doctor Mark Chamberlaine,

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Speaker 1: the study co author, told Today, I think men are

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Speaker 1: challenged in caring for someone who has disease and treatment

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Speaker 1: related symptoms, managing the stress, managing the logistics right.

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Speaker 2: And there are many articles writing about the level of

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Speaker 2: unpreparedness of men becoming caretakers and taking on any type

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Speaker 2: of household responsibility. So here's a quote from a Guardian article. Tomer,

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Speaker 2: a sociologist from the University of Alabama who studies how

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Speaker 2: gender affects couples when a partner gets sick, says, in

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Speaker 2: most couples, people understand they will need to support their

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Speaker 2: partner if they get sick. But she says men and

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Speaker 2: women interpret what caregiving looks like very differently. Men tend

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Speaker 2: to view the partner getting sick in almost a mechanical way.

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Speaker 2: They see it as a problem to be solved. They

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Speaker 2: can separate out the obvious and immediate physical tasks that

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Speaker 2: result from the illness but other caregiving requirements are left unconsidered,

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Speaker 2: such as emotional care or housework, which I feel like

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Speaker 2: that's physical but okay. This means that a lot of

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Speaker 2: the time women continue to do that work, and when

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Speaker 2: they don't, problems.

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Speaker 1: Can rise and they continue. Talking about a study completed

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Speaker 1: in Germany Quote twenty eighteen, Researchers in Germany used a

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Speaker 1: nationally representative sample to show that as long as they

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Speaker 1: are still able to, women continue to do an uneven

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Speaker 1: amount of the housework while they are sick. If that

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Speaker 1: was the dynamic in their relationship before they became unwell,

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Speaker 1: particularly with more mild conditions, the expectation is that the

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Speaker 1: status quo will go on unless it gets so extreme

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Speaker 1: that the wife really can't do the work, says Tomer.

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Speaker 1: The flip side of this is that relationships tend to

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Speaker 1: function well when the woman gets sick and requires intensive

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Speaker 1: care from her partner, but in cases where caregiving is

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Speaker 1: not necessitated, men tend to downplay a woman's symptoms and

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Speaker 1: classer is largely self sufficient, expecting her to ask for

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Speaker 1: help rather than proactively giving it. Communication fails even in sickness,

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Speaker 1: but many of the reports are worse. They give examples

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Speaker 1: of women who are expected to continue with daily chores

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Speaker 1: even in pain or immediately after surgery, and if the

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Speaker 1: routines are disrupted for too long, the household falls apart,

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Speaker 1: and this includes sexual activity. Women discussed how they would

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Speaker 1: take painkillers in order to not upset their spouses. When

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Speaker 1: it came to sexual expectations.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was pretty explicit. I was like, wow, okay,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I hate all of this for you.

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Speaker 2: Of course, we've already talked about how sex and marriages

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Speaker 2: are expected and automated, but whatever. And on that note,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk a little bit about the statistics

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Speaker 2: when it comes to Christianity and divorce. So some of

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Speaker 2: the forces are saying Christians are getting to divorce more

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Speaker 2: than any other religion. Is that true? That's the question,

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Speaker 2: and the answer is simple yes, But there are several

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Speaker 2: factors to that statistic. The broad term of Christianity can

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Speaker 2: be misleading. According to the Pew Research Center study, Evangelical

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Speaker 2: Protestants had fourteen percent divorce rate, while historical Black Protestants

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Speaker 2: had a nineteen percent. Mainline Protestants a twelve percent divorce percentage,

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Speaker 2: and they were among the highest of the divorce rates,

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Speaker 2: which in that same study included the Hinduism, Buddhists, and

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Speaker 2: muslim and other religions. But when you put them all together,

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Speaker 2: that's a big chunk of Protestants. Yeah.

434
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: And another report showed that at least twenty five percent

435
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: of Christians have gone through divorce, and the numbers are

436
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,520
Speaker 1: pretty studied today. Here's a quote from an older article

437
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: on divorce statistics between Christians and quote non believers. According

438
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: to the survey by the Barner Group, which is an

439
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: organization that focus on research on the intersection of faith

440
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,160
Speaker 1: and culture, thirty percent of atheists and agnostics had been

441
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: married and subsequently divorced. But the Barner Group pointed out

442
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 1: that they have lower rates of marriage sixty five percent,

443
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: and a higher likelihood of cohabitation. Barnara also stated in

444
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 1: a two thousand and four survey that one can understand

445
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:43,160
Speaker 1: why atheists and agnostics might have a higher rate of divorce,

446
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,480
Speaker 1: since they are less likely to believe in concepts such

447
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: as sin, absolute moral truth, and judgment. Yet the survey

448
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: found that the percentage of atheists and agnostics who have

449
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 1: been married and divorce is thirty percent, still less than

450
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: the numbers for the born again population of thirty three percent.

451
00:24:57,480 --> 00:24:59,000
Speaker 1: So why is this happening?

452
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have I have several reasons according to

453
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: conservative Christians. Now, everything we're saying is coming from Christian articles. Again,

454
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,080
Speaker 2: my algorithm is real messed up, real messed up. But

455
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 2: I did find it interesting and I can't wait to

456
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: not be on this algorithm. Women are falling under the

457
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: trap of feminism. The idea of independence and being able

458
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: to leave without justification not cool. Also, a big common

459
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 2: factor in conservative Christian blogs is the refusal to acknowledge

460
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: gender as the binary aspect. So they really don't like

461
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 2: any of this conversation we're having today. When feminism confuses

462
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: the role of gender again, not us, not Anie, and

463
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 2: I are saying this. This is again from this article.

464
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: Then family and marriage roles fall apart. Here's advice from

465
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,399
Speaker 2: an article from The Federalist, and I really hated that

466
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 2: I clicked on this quote. Successful relationships depend on men

467
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: being men and women being women. Every fiber of a

468
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 2: woman's being calls out for a man with whom she

469
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 2: can feel physically and emotionally safe, and money is part

470
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: of that equation. Yes, women now earn their own money

471
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: and that it is not going to change, But what

472
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: can change is our attitude and approach to love. What

473
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: men and women look for in a relationship and what

474
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: they need from each other within that relationship is not

475
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: the same. Being malleable with gender role is great, but

476
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 2: ignoring biology is not. After all these years, women still

477
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 2: want security and men still want to provide that security.

478
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: The more of a relationship moves away from this reality,

479
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 2: the more it will struggle. The more a relationship moves

480
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,159
Speaker 2: toward it, the more successful it will be, which is

481
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 2: again ironic according to the statistics we just read.

482
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: Mm also hello from nineteen fifties, and yes, this article.

483
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 3: Is written in twenty two and in other articles giving

484
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 3: advice to men about how to restore their marriage or

485
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,159
Speaker 3: keep their wives, they often tell men to be authoritative

486
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 3: but with submissive cards, which is not necessarily wrong.

487
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,159
Speaker 1: Think of it as disciplining a child and trying not

488
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: to push the child away, but gently nudging them to

489
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: the answer you want them to give. Does it seem condescending?

490
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 2: Yes, I think.

491
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: Here's a snippet from one article called an Epidemic of

492
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 1: Christian Wives divorcing. Quote For the majority of these men,

493
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 1: nothing seems to work. They try being loving and affectionate,

494
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,919
Speaker 1: just to be rejected. They try devotions and prayer together

495
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: and she has some excuse why she can't do it.

496
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: They call her out on her sins and she gets

497
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: more and more angry and bitter. Some have tried it all,

498
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: from being submissed themselves for a month to their wives

499
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,439
Speaker 1: to prove it's not so hard, then to becoming a

500
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: man of the manosphere and taking leadership whether they have

501
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,920
Speaker 1: a follower or not. Nothing they try seems to work,

502
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: and often the wife will confess in her less angry moments,

503
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,320
Speaker 1: I know I am the problem, but I don't know

504
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: how to stop it. One would think that just saying

505
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 1: that would be a big breakthrough, as the awareness that

506
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,920
Speaker 1: I am the problem should in a healthy mind begin

507
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,479
Speaker 1: to seek solutions to unhealthy behaviors, but in many cases,

508
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: the final results are Christian wives walking away from their

509
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 1: marriages and epidemic numbers because they are seeking relief from

510
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 1: the pain that they themselves are causing. And it's not

511
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: over yet. The block keeps going, saying perhaps the root

512
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,159
Speaker 1: cause is a desire for control, as the feminist lies

513
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: are now planted firmly in most of the young Christian

514
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: wives hearts. No longer do they go into a marriage

515
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: with an attitude that believes love is sacrificial giving of

516
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 1: oneself to another, but rather love is now a two

517
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: way street that says, I cannot love you if I

518
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: do not feel I am getting from you what I

519
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: believe I need.

520
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: I just.

521
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: I want to take a minute out of this article.

522
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 2: In that same article, they never talk about why the

523
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 2: women are leaving. They just say because they refuse to

524
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: work on the marriage. Right, So what I say is

525
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: generalized to specific cases. They don't even give examples of

526
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 2: why the women are unhappy. This blew my mind. I

527
00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: was like, why, really, women want a two way street? Wait?

528
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 2: What that's a bad thing instead of sacrificing herself. But

529
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: you know whatever, whatnot? And by the way, the article

530
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: was a man who supposedly his wife gets the thumbs

531
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 2: up to this article saying yes, exactly exactly right, which

532
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 2: is what you're supposed to do with a wife, right.

533
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 2: Oh wow, damn feminism, damn feminism. And yet, if you're

534
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 2: confused about the evils of feminism, here's a quote from

535
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: thegirldefined dot com. Which thing we talked about their site before.

536
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 2: At its route, feminism is built upon a foundation completely

537
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: devoid of God. The feminist movement is woven with the

538
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 2: same sin Satan committed in the beginning, a rebellious heart

539
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 2: that pridefully says, I don't need you God, thanks, but

540
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 2: I'll do it things my way. I'm so good at acting.

541
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: And they continue saying. The average American will agree that

542
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: most strongly stand for the following a woman's right to

543
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: abort murder her unborn baby, lesbianism, and the right for

544
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: women to marry women, complete liberation from sexual boundaries and morals,

545
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 2: freedom from traditional gender roles in marriage, rejection of God

546
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 2: as the ultimate authority in life. You know, outside of

547
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 2: the wording and the fairmong greed, they're not completely wrong.

548
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 2: I do feel like a woman should be able to

549
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 2: wear marry a woman if they're in love. I do

550
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, liberating from sexual boundaries of saying

551
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: that we have to be here for men's pleasure is

552
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: not a bad thing. And yeah, traditional gender roles suck

553
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 2: and that's why people are getting divorced. But okay, whatever whatever, Sure, sure,

554
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: but I will say for that last bit, I know

555
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: a lot of Christian feminists who would disagree with this completely.

556
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: But again, there is binary thinking when it comes to

557
00:30:54,920 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 2: this specific line of don't ever leave people divorces.

558
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: Right and according to another blog titled why feminism wants

559
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: to dismantle the family quote Like many isms before it, communism, religions, cults,

560
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: feminism seeks to dismantle the traditional family unit for its

561
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: own gain. Why to the ism, old loyalties are like

562
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: bad habits, interfering with an individual's ability to pledge unwaiving allegiance.

563
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: Isms want control, but families tend to put family members

564
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: and their needs before the demands of the ism, reducing

565
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: the ISM's power and influence and therefore undermining its control.

566
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: Mm I love how they put religions in there.

567
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 2: I know, I don't like occultism. Does that work? I'm

568
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: a little too literal, I think. Okay, And if y'all

569
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: want to read this glorious article yourself, let us know.

570
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: But the author of this blog cites several anti feminist

571
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 2: articles and books, including from the Flip Side of Feminism,

572
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 2: where they use this quote from it quote. Feminists realize

573
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: all too well that they can never achieve a level

574
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: playing field in the marketplace as long as their male

575
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: competitors have the advantage of homemaker wives. Women on the

576
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: left know that in order to get ahead more easily,

577
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: they must deprive men of their advantage in having stay

578
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 2: at home. Wise, the desire to eliminate the full time

579
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 2: homemaker has been a feminist's goal all along. The need

580
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: for a second income was never the goal, which I

581
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: find hilarious. They give a lot of credit to women

582
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 2: who just want to be able to sustain just in case.

583
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 2: Like at the at the beginning, it was more of like, oh,

584
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 2: I don't want to be abused and treated as a

585
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: servant anymore to their under my marriage, and this is

586
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: the goal to the entire time, Like oh, okay, a

587
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 2: playbook here.

588
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 3: I know.

589
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 1: The author from the same blog expands on this idea,

590
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: saying quote, so feminism has made some progress over the

591
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: last several decades. If you look at the poorest and

592
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: least socially mobile areas in America, you will notice one

593
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: variable consistently lacking fathers, more specifically, mothers who are married

594
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: to the father of their children. Over the last few decades,

595
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: the birth rate for unmarried women in the US has

596
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: risen steadily from eighteen percent in nineteen eighty to forty

597
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: one percent and twenty twelve. Alarmingly, the majority of moms

598
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,080
Speaker 1: believe that absent or uninvolved dads can easily be replaced

599
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: themselves or another man, despite the evidence that stable marriages

600
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 1: lead to happy, healthy and motivated kids, which leads to

601
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 1: stronger communities, more opportunities, and greater equality.

602
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: I find it again quite funny that whole last line

603
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 2: is obviously an opinion.

604
00:33:50,720 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, right, also very kind of funnily worded way,

605
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: But yeah, sure, we've.

606
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: Definitely heard that argument before.

607
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 1: The blog talks more about the perils of feminism in

608
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 1: regards to motherhood, politics, and marriage, but I think we

609
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: got we got that covered for now. An interesting theory

610
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: she brings, and so many other articles bring, is the

611
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 1: idea that things like divorce and child support are too

612
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: easy to access and that encourages more women to leave

613
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: their husbands right.

614
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: Recently, the topic of no fault divorce has been trending.

615
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 2: Right wing conservative Stephen Crowder has been lamenting, and I

616
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 2: mean just whining, his current marital status, which is now

617
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 2: no longer a thing. He told his audience about his

618
00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: recent divorce, quote, No, this was not my choice. My

619
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 2: then wife decided that she didn't want to be married anymore,

620
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 2: and in the state of Texas that is completely permitted.

621
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 2: This was, by the way, an accusation, not just a statement.

622
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:51,759
Speaker 2: Here's what a no fault divorce is. It allows a

623
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: couple to divorce without blame or fault. It is often

624
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,359
Speaker 2: the simplest path and divorce available in a state, and

625
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 2: it exists in all fifty and DC according to legal

626
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,960
Speaker 2: zoom dot com. And it explains further. No fault divorce

627
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 2: allows one spouse to file for divorce without blaming the

628
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: other or indicating that it was either spouse's fault. The

629
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 2: terminology differs with each state's no fault divorce laws, but

630
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: to obtain a no fault divorce, the spouse who files

631
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 2: simply needs to state that there has been irreconcilable differences

632
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 2: or incompatibility. And in some states, living apart for a

633
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 2: specific period of time can be the reason for a

634
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: no fault divorce. And I've heard that before just being

635
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 2: separated is enough. And conservatives are not a fan and

636
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:37,640
Speaker 2: are wanting to end no fault divorce. And when we

637
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: say conservatives, I'm talking about political figureheads. In a recent

638
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:44,680
Speaker 2: Rolling Stone magazine article, They write, but Republicans across the

639
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:48,600
Speaker 2: country are now reconsidering no fault divorce. There isn't a

640
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:51,960
Speaker 2: huge mystery behind the campaign, like the crusades against abortion

641
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 2: and contraception. Making it more difficult to leave an unhappy

642
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: marriage is about control. Crowder's home state could be the

643
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,919
Speaker 2: first to eliminate it if the Texas is his way.

644
00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 2: Last year, the Republican Party of Texas added language to

645
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: its platform calling for an end to no fault divorce.

646
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: In it, they said, we are the legislators to rescind

647
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 2: unilateral no fault divorce laws, to support covenant marriage, and

648
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 2: to pass legislation extending the period of time in which

649
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 2: a divorce may occur to six months after the date

650
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 2: of filing for divorce. And this is what we were

651
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 2: talking about, how to file for divorces because it does

652
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 2: a lot of stakes. Do have this type of stipulation. Yeah,

653
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: but it's interest in the wording covenant marriage.

654
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, very interesting, and of course other conservative states are

655
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: following suit. Here's another quote from that article. It's not

656
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: just Texas. A similar proposals presently being workshopped by the

657
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 1: Republican Party of Louisiana. The Nebraska GOP has affirmed its

658
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 1: beliefs that no fault divorce should only be accessible to

659
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: couples without children. At the Republican National Convention in twenty sixteen,

660
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: the last time the party platform was overhauled, delegates considered

661
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 1: adding language declaring quote children are made to be by

662
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:04,480
Speaker 1: both natural parents united in marriage. Legal structures such as

663
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: no fault divorce, which divides families and in powers of state,

664
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: should be replaced by a fault based divorced It's unclear

665
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: whether the party's twice divorced nominee for president, Wade in

666
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: on the debate at that time.

667
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 2: Right, I feel like this is going to hurt a

668
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 2: lot of politicians, and this is going to hurt a

669
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 2: lot of conservatives. Again, as we heard that the rates

670
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:25,479
Speaker 2: of divorce and Christianity is higher, it makes you question.

671
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 2: And also I feel like less people are gonna get

672
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: married and have children, which is the opposite of what

673
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: Christian nationalists want. But you know, whatever, right, right, right, right,

674
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 2: And yes, no surprise.

675
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: Just as they said in the article, this is a

676
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: large conversation on control and loss of autonomy. In an

677
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: older article about no fault divorce, They write that things

678
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: like no fault divorce is an attacked the sanctity of marriage,

679
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: even more so than gay marriage, and is another strategy

680
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: by feminists. Ah here's a couple of quotes from this

681
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 1: two thousand and five article. The most forthright marriage advocates

682
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 1: recognize that, as Michael mccannis of Marriage Savers' Rights, divorce

683
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: is far more grievous blow to marriage than today's challenge

684
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: by gaze. Predictably, this fact has been seized upon by

685
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 1: advocates of same sex marriage. The weakening of marriage has

686
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: been heterosexuals doing, not gays, for it is their infidelity,

687
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: divorce rates, and single parent families that have wrought social damage,

688
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: opines the Economist. This distinction ignores the fact that the

689
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,399
Speaker 1: two problems are closely connected. Gay marriage would probably not

690
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: be an issue in the first place if marriage had

691
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 1: not already been weakened by divorce. Interesting, and according to

692
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 1: the same article, divorce is a part of the feminist strategy.

693
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: They write today feminist operatives employ similar strategies to encourage

694
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: divorce worldwide, often inserting it unnoticed and unopposed into programs

695
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: for human rights and unilateral Divorce is now one of

696
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: the first measures implemented by leftist governments.

697
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: In two thousand and five, wasn't it Bush? Yeah? I

698
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: think yeah, anyway, yeah yeah, so again feminist operatives. Yeah,

699
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: that's usastly badass. I'm not gonna lie. And if feminism

700
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 2: is a strategic plant to destroy families, then obviously Christian

701
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 2: conservatives must combat the way they know how through fear

702
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 2: and jame. For example, what happens when a woman in

703
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: unhappy marriage is desperate for the next steps. Well, let's

704
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: look at some blogs and articles for advice. I'm gonna

705
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,320
Speaker 2: read this. One blog offers fourteen characteristics of a godly

706
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: wife that will save your marriage. So we're going to

707
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:42,720
Speaker 2: go down this list. Obviously, it's reading the Bible, being

708
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 2: persistent in prayer, giving godly wifely love, forgiving, being selfless,

709
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:52,840
Speaker 2: I think in a godly manner, use words of affirmation

710
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 2: and appreciation and admiration, being a leader, but with the husband,

711
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,719
Speaker 2: of course, being virtuous by understanding men. They actually say

712
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 2: virtuous by understanding men. And to elaborate on that, they say, quote,

713
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 2: we knew as a godly wife, take the time to

714
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: learn how men understand things. You take a huge step

715
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 2: in saving your marriage. You're welcome, respect your husband, having

716
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: a biblical priorities, and being a virtuous woman in the community.

717
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: And I don't think I've mentioned the whole Proverbs thirty

718
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: one woman, which is an old Testament. If you go,

719
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: it used to be a thing where you would find

720
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 2: your birth date, go to that verse and that's supposed

721
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 2: to describe you. Oh it's terrifying, okay, anyway, but that's

722
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 2: a solution. Another offers a simple solution. This article titled

723
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 2: how to be Happy in an Unhappy Marriage suggests changing

724
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: your focus and expectations. And it's not completely wrong, as

725
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,320
Speaker 2: the article says, marriage isn't a Hollywood or Harlequin romance

726
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 2: and it's something that is about compromise at work. But

727
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 2: it suggests, like the article above, that marriage is for

728
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 2: God and that's the focus. It doesn't really offer much

729
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 2: guidance outside of that. It literally had like two paragraphs

730
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 2: and yeah, again it's similar to what we just saw, aka, pray,

731
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: read the Bible, follow the rules of the Bible, and

732
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: your marriage will be happy. And as a side note,

733
00:41:19,560 --> 00:41:23,399
Speaker 2: we also found an interesting conversation about parity culture once

734
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 2: again and the effects of marrying young for the sake

735
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 2: of sexual purity. Again, I have so many friends and

736
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,719
Speaker 2: couples who fall under this line of thinking, we want

737
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 2: to have sex, but we want to save ourselves as

738
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: our marriage, So let's get married. Nineteen twenty twenty one.

739
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 2: And here's a quote from the Cedarville interpreter. I believe

740
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: Cedarville's a school quote. A practical issue with sexual abstinence

741
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: until marriage is that Christians are driven to marry young

742
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: in order to be able to have sex without any guilt.

743
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 2: Virginity is held as a pinnacle of purity and pride, which,

744
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: if nothing else, raises its own unnecessary pedestal that all

745
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 2: too often borders on sexual idolatry. Getting married too young

746
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,239
Speaker 2: for the wrong reasons, and having unreasonable expectations of how

747
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,480
Speaker 2: amazing being married will be can be in a catalyst

748
00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 2: for unhappy marriages and divorce. This rush to get married

749
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: also leaves fewer opportunities to find major red flags that

750
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,400
Speaker 2: should suggest ending a relationship before marriage. Yeah, and again,

751
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: being a part of the Christian culture in college and

752
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 2: high school, it really hits the nail on the head.

753
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,799
Speaker 2: I the literal reason they got married is we love

754
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: each other enough. We're about to send, So let's go

755
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: ahead and go and we'll grow old together and God

756
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: will handle everything else. And then they end up in

757
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: a horrible divorce.

758
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I thought too.

759
00:42:44,320 --> 00:43:00,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, so what happens when the force does happen

760
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: and what happens to women? Like I mentioned before, a

761
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: lot of people would flee from the judgment of old

762
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,800
Speaker 2: fashioned ideas or what I would deemed as old fashioned.

763
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: But sometimes people would come back with the hope that

764
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 2: enough time had passed for people to either forget or

765
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: at least not care as much. But for the most parts,

766
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone ever really felt comfortable coming back

767
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 2: to the original churches or felt that they were still

768
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 2: a part of that community.

769
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: Yes, and with all the turn to God articles urging

770
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: people to yes, just turn to God, pray and work

771
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: it out, there are those who decided to do what

772
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,640
Speaker 1: was best for them. But something interesting we found is

773
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 1: that they all still felt that the church and church

774
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: leadership had a lot of say in that decision. In

775
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: one woman's words, as she had gone to the church

776
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: to help her volatile marriage, one key to why she

777
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: left was because her church leadership released her to legally separate.

778
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:57,439
Speaker 1: Here's a quote from her blog. I went to church

779
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:00,239
Speaker 1: leadership begging for help as my last resort. We were

780
00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:03,280
Speaker 1: referred to a new couple's counselor and a mentor couple.

781
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,880
Speaker 1: We walked this road with our elder and campus pastor.

782
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 1: We were each given a lengthy list of things to

783
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: do to move towards reconciliation. My plea for a temporary

784
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: separation was backed up as they felt things were just

785
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 1: too volatile for us to remain under one roof while

786
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,799
Speaker 1: trying to put things back together. But when assessed at

787
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,320
Speaker 1: the end, But when assessed at the end of about

788
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: fifteen months, the unanimous decision was that I had done

789
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: all I had been asked to do and my husband

790
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 1: had not. They told me I was released from pursuing

791
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,720
Speaker 1: a reconciliation and that the ball was one hundred percent

792
00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 1: in my husband's court to save our marriage. They then

793
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: released me to legal separation, which I pursued. I must

794
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,040
Speaker 1: say here that had my church leadership not released me

795
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: to legally separate, I have absolutely no idea where I

796
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: would be today. If I had to guess, though, I

797
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 1: believe I'd still be married and miserable and nowhere near

798
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: on the road to emotional health. I believe I would

799
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: not have wanted to go against the wishes and guidance

800
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: of my church leadership because of my high respect for

801
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,520
Speaker 1: their wisdom and love for God. I am not staying

802
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 1: forever because they did release me, so I moved forward.

803
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

804
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 2: Of course we don't know the specifics of this marriage,

805
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 2: but reading some of her experiences, I think it's safe

806
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 2: to say if something is too volatile, there's a level

807
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 2: of violence that's been present, and to me that's scary,

808
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: especially with her acknowledgment that if the church had not

809
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: given her permission, she would have remained in that volatile relationship.

810
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: So what does that teach us? And then, in my experience,

811
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,880
Speaker 2: separating would never be permitted with the old church that

812
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: I was a part of, So that leaves the victim

813
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 2: continuing to be a victim. Yeah, and in my opinion,

814
00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,400
Speaker 2: this article again was a plea for Christians to understand

815
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 2: her view and her desperation to leave her union, which

816
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 2: is really depressing. I hate that still a romantic notion

817
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,960
Speaker 2: today because you know, marriage is completely different from what

818
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:50,880
Speaker 2: it was a thousand years ago, one hundred years ago.

819
00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: Apparently still different when it comes to k dramas and

820
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: its acquisitions can be weaponized. And that's what I feel

821
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 2: like this has become. These articles are talking about.

822
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I actually, uh, this is like much less serious.

823
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: But I want to come back and talk about that

824
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: because I may or may not have watched the Super

825
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 1: Mario Brothers movie least wait.

826
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 2: Princess Peech.

827
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, because he's like essentially trying to trap her

828
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: to marriage and it's so like sad.

829
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:25,879
Speaker 2: Song.

830
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,080
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but then he like threatens her friends. Anyway,

831
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 1: I want to come back and talk about it. Yes,

832
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:38,360
Speaker 1: back to the more serious stuff.

833
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 3: Though.

834
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 1: In many of these articles, writers and authors played different

835
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 1: cases on why divorce is dangerous to the Christian community,

836
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,920
Speaker 1: but that ostracizing them is just as dangerous and decreasing

837
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 1: the numbers in the Christian community. However, studies show that

838
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: many of the divorce Christians are still active in their

839
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: faith even after going through such a distressing experience, though

840
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: that may change as more people are walking away from

841
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: their religious background. The research might shift. But with the

842
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: Christian community, there is a battle between those who are

843
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,720
Speaker 1: blaming leftists for the acceptance of divorce in their people

844
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:14,800
Speaker 1: and those who are pleading for the church to handle

845
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: the issue of divorce with more grace and acceptance.

846
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: Right because we were coming down to how how do

847
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,240
Speaker 2: the churches respond? I got more articles on again telling

848
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,839
Speaker 2: women it's okay, this is how all went through it

849
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 2: than anything else, and then talking about how part of

850
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 2: the problem and part of the reason divorce is happening.

851
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:38,520
Speaker 2: And then they're not coming back to the church's because

852
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: of the way they keep pushing against people who are

853
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 2: getting divorced. So not a lot of resolution, not a

854
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 2: lot of solutions. It's quite fascinating. It's just more of

855
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 2: a debate about why it's happening and who to blame, right.

856
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,279
Speaker 1: Right, right, right again. So much we could talk about here,

857
00:47:54,960 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: so much to come. Yes, yes, well listeners. If you

858
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 1: have any thoughts about this, please please let us know.

859
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: You can write to us. You can email us at

860
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: Stephanie mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find

861
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram

862
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:12,879
Speaker 1: and TikTok at stuff On've Never Told You. We also

863
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 1: have a book you can pre order. It's at stuff

864
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: you Should Read Books dot com. Thanks as always to

865
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