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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 1: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 1: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 1: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 1: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 1: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's got to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to it

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Speaker 1: could happen here. A podcast that is being recorded far

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Speaker 1: too early in the morning with me to help me

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Speaker 1: stay conscious. Is my friend and coffee entrepreneur prop aka

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Speaker 1: Jason Petty Prop.

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Speaker 2: How are you doing, buddy man, I'm wonderful on this

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Speaker 2: fine day.

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Speaker 3: I almost did an AKA song forgetting which shows?

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh wait, that's a zeigeis bit happens

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Speaker 2: to me all the time?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So which bit for which Show'm I suppose do? Right now?

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Speaker 1: Here's here's here's what we were talking about before the show,

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Speaker 1: which is that we're both exhausted despite sleeping normally.

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Speaker 2: This week. I feel like this.

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Speaker 1: May be something to do with these aliens. Everybody's talking

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Speaker 1: about something's going on here.

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Speaker 3: It's yeah, aliens or just this like kind of week

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Speaker 3: long sort of holiday festival. I've been a part of that.

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Speaker 3: Apparently all of Black America has been participating in.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

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Speaker 3: We're all experiencing a level of bliss I don't think

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Speaker 3: we've had in a long time.

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Speaker 1: That is, that is our subject of today, which is uh.

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Speaker 1: I think the term generally being used for it is

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Speaker 1: the Montgomery riverboat brawl. That seems to be what we've

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Speaker 1: all settled on.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they say the fade in the water.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's new, there's new spirituals and hymns.

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Speaker 1: The Ballad of Black Aquaman. Yes, I love that kid.

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Speaker 1: But we should before we get into all this, we

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Speaker 1: should have know what actually happened, because I'm gonna guess

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Speaker 1: there's at least a chunk of people listening who are like,

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Speaker 1: what the fuck are you guys talking about. The short

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Speaker 1: of it is a couple of days ago, video dropped

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Speaker 1: two different clips I think are mainly what's what people

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Speaker 1: are watching of a fight at a riverboat dock in Montgomery, Alabama.

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Speaker 1: And basically what happens is you had this this river

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Speaker 1: boat and it's you know, Montgomery, Alabama's got a lot

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Speaker 1: of tourism. It's one of these big boats that holds

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Speaker 1: about two hundred and seventy people. I think, takes them

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Speaker 1: up and down the river. You know, you go up

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Speaker 1: and down the river, you look at the pretty things.

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Speaker 1: I assume there's there's beer or something.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's all sorts of cities do this. So this boat

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Speaker 1: is heading back into dock and they've got all these

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Speaker 1: people who want to get off the boat because they've

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Speaker 1: been on for a while and.

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Speaker 3: They have people to get back in a lot of

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Speaker 3: people to get the next one.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you know they have a set

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Speaker 1: spot that is their spot, and no one else is

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Speaker 1: to park their boat at the dock, as is usual

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Speaker 1: for a large business like this, and some dudes with

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Speaker 1: a pontoon boat have taken it up.

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Speaker 2: They've parked there.

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Speaker 1: So the captain gets on the pa for quite a

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Speaker 1: while and is like, hey, guys, move your pontoon. Hey guys,

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Speaker 1: you got to get that pontoon out of here. Hey, y'all,

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Speaker 1: if you don't get that pontoon out of here, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to call the cops. And if you have open containers,

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Speaker 1: the cops are going to fuck you. You don't want that,

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Speaker 1: So why don't you just move? And these guys get

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Speaker 1: like shitty at him and start like yelling at him

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Speaker 1: and cursing at him, flipping him the bird. So he

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Speaker 1: sends over his co captain, and the captain of the

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Speaker 1: boat from the videos if scene appears to be a

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Speaker 1: white dude. The co captain is a middle aged black man.

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Speaker 1: He gets off the boat and he goes over to

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Speaker 1: just like move the pontoon boat right, which is a

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Speaker 1: thing that boat people do when situations like this occur.

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Speaker 1: It is not like an unheard of situation. And while

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Speaker 1: he's doing it, a whole bunch of the presumably the

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Speaker 1: dudes who own this pontoon boat boat who were all white,

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Speaker 1: surround him and start attacking him. And then at one

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Speaker 1: point that looks like five or six people trying it,

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Speaker 1: and he's, for the for the record, he's holding his own.

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Speaker 1: He's doing as long as you can. Yeah, And then

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Speaker 1: a number of nearby people start running to his aid,

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Speaker 1: including at least one of the kids on the river boat.

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Speaker 1: Uh hops out or like hops into the water and

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Speaker 1: like swims.

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Speaker 2: Yeah you are talking about the rest of this, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: There's a Hood Politics episode recorded where I try to

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Speaker 3: do like initial reactions and try to add some some

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Speaker 3: like color to this, which will come out a little later.

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Speaker 3: This will come out before that. But there's Yeah, so

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Speaker 3: you're watching the video, you can't it's all inaudible, so

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Speaker 3: you can't really hear except for the people recording. You

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Speaker 3: hear them talking to them talking, right, but judging from

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Speaker 3: there's so many context clues to understand what's happening.

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Speaker 2: Right, So as the co.

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Speaker 3: Captain, the black dude's getting off the boat to come

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Speaker 3: talk to these white boys right the way that you

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Speaker 3: could just you know, when someone's like and unfortunately for

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Speaker 3: white people, y'all can't when you're drunk. Just your skin

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Speaker 3: shows it, you know, I'm saying, like, so you can

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Speaker 3: just see, Okay, this dude's like, your skin's very flush

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Speaker 3: with color right now. So you're you're clearly drunk, you

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Speaker 3: know what I'm saying. And it's hot as hell because

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Speaker 3: it's Montgomery, Alabama, right, It's also Montgomery, Alabama. So you

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Speaker 3: just from seeing the interaction and the body language of

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Speaker 3: both people in this conversation, you're like, Okay, this conversation

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Speaker 3: is getting intense. And then and then once once the

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Speaker 3: uh the the white gentleman decides he's gonna put hands

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Speaker 3: on his black dude.

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Speaker 2: The black dude throws his hat up into the air.

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Speaker 3: He shure does, he shares does as a Now, Robert,

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Speaker 3: is that not a universal bet?

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Speaker 2: It is signal?

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Speaker 1: I would go so far as to say, it's like

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Speaker 1: that's damn near like a mortal combat opener. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is universal.

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Speaker 3: Hands.

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Speaker 5: Yes, it's like, all right, we got.

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Speaker 3: To throw hands, right, So it's so good. So at

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Speaker 3: that point, that's when like clearly, like clearly, either these

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Speaker 3: white boys are very inebriated or have grossly underestimated the

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Speaker 3: feeling of collective identity black people have, because when they

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Speaker 3: decided to jump this man, you're in front of hundreds

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Speaker 3: of black people, oh yeah, who are all waiting in

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Speaker 3: line to get on this boat, right, who are already

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Speaker 3: pissed at you because you not moving right. So, so

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Speaker 3: when he does that, as you can see, there are

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Speaker 3: people running, you know, black men running as fast as

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Speaker 3: they can to kind of help you know this, uh,

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Speaker 3: this this co captain who by this point is being

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Speaker 3: stomped because he's overpowered by five people. And then you

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Speaker 3: see this young man swimming yeah to the shore, which

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Speaker 3: is like, he's a Yeah, I mean, that guy's a

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Speaker 3: national treasure.

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Speaker 1: Now, so I don't know that guy, but I can

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Speaker 1: tell that we can tell a couple of things about him.

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Speaker 1: One of them is that he reacts quickly in a crisis.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah. And the other is that pretty good swimmer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he must be a teenager, because how you're gonna

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Speaker 3: have the energy to swim there and then still start

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Speaker 3: doing work.

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Speaker 1: Well and then pull yourself up onto a dock when yeah,

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Speaker 1: clothing's all soaked. Very impressive feet.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, so so as that happens, people finally catch up,

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Speaker 3: the boat finally gets a chance to dock. Now these

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Speaker 3: other people who were on the boat and watched all

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Speaker 3: this happen are like, now it's our turn. So they

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Speaker 3: get off the boat, go to the pontoon. Shirts off again,

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Speaker 3: another universal signal. If I've taken my T shirt off,

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Speaker 3: we're we're here, We're gonna throw down. So they start

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Speaker 3: throwing down. I mean it's women getting involved. And then

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Speaker 3: now now, now, now it becomes this this entire brawl right. So,

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Speaker 3: and if you've ever been in situations where brawls break out,

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Speaker 3: they kind of move and shift as different people decide

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Speaker 3: they want a part of it, and other people get tired,

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Speaker 3: and somebody's finally, you know, his nosebleeding whatever. And while

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Speaker 3: this is happening, there's a few clips where you can

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Speaker 3: see whether they're security officers or police, they're.

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Speaker 5: Kind of just watching, kind of like I don't know

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Speaker 5: if we needn't do anything about this just yet.

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Speaker 3: Now, finally the brawl gets around the corner and a

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Speaker 3: brave old man, old head who sees his opportunity wile.

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Speaker 1: Who is who has brought? Who has brought? But he's

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Speaker 1: got the soul of a sniper. This man is like

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Speaker 1: watching and waiting to act.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, So at this point, uh, there are some

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Speaker 3: security officers involved who have finally been like, all right, man,

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Speaker 3: maybe we just maybe we should stop this. And it's

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Speaker 3: almost like again you can't hear it, but judging by

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Speaker 3: their body language, the cops were kind of like, I

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Speaker 3: don't know, man, and white boys kind of ask for it,

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Speaker 3: like and you don't say so, I just kind of

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Speaker 3: watch it like, hey man, you ask for it, man,

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Speaker 3: And this is what happened. You should have moved your boat,

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Speaker 3: shouldn't have been talking shit like like like Kat Williams says,

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Speaker 3: shouldn't have been talking shit, you know.

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Speaker 5: So so anyway they.

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Speaker 3: Do this, and this this hero of a man grabs

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Speaker 3: a white folding chair and just wax a dude over

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Speaker 3: the head with it who was attempting to attack some

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Speaker 3: other people. Now clearly again if you've been in a brawl,

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Speaker 3: maybe adding color that's not on the video, but like

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Speaker 3: if you've been in a brawl, you understand at some

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Speaker 3: point you're kind of blackout and you just you just

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Speaker 3: get punched drunk. So while he's hitting a guy with

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Speaker 3: a folding chair, the there's this other white lady who's

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Speaker 3: attempting to intervene with an interaction that one of the

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Speaker 3: security or cop guys is having with turns out which

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Speaker 3: with probably one of her compadres.

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Speaker 1: And this is, by the way, a mixed gender brawl.

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Speaker 1: There's there's like, yeah, this is not not just dudes

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Speaker 1: uh throwing hands, Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: It's it's it's it's girls on girls, it's girls on dudes,

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Speaker 3: it's dudes on girls.

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Speaker 2: It's a brawl, you know.

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Speaker 3: So the officer, like officers do when you try to

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Speaker 3: intervene with them having interactions with with somebody.

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Speaker 2: Pushes the lady away.

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Speaker 3: Now, now the lady's in riverbroke crocs, right, so her

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Speaker 3: feet just fall right through the crocs, right. She gets

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Speaker 3: pushed down and just happens to be in the eyesight

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Speaker 3: of this of this sixty old man with a folded chair.

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Speaker 5: And while she's down, he just turns and just whacks

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Speaker 5: her over the head with this chair.

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Speaker 1: He does, he shares it gives you the w W

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Speaker 1: E special I mean, just New World Order suck.

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Speaker 3: It just smacks her with a folding chair and at

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Speaker 3: that point, you it's almost like and again it's all audible,

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Speaker 3: but you just see the officers go like.

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Speaker 1: Ship man, yep, Now we gotta do something.

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Speaker 5: Now, we gotta like the fuck man. Now we gotta

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Speaker 5: arrest you dude.

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Speaker 3: Right, So the cops finally go like what the fuck man,

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Speaker 3: They take the chair from the guy, and the dude

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Speaker 3: his body language is so like like he doesn't even

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Speaker 3: know what's happening, like I'm just swinging, you know. So

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Speaker 3: when the officer finally takes the chair and they like

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Speaker 3: they're like, dude, you.

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Speaker 5: Hit the lady, You hit the lady, hit the lady.

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Speaker 2: We got yeah, we gotta do something.

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Speaker 3: We got to arrest you now, right, and which, of

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Speaker 3: course the internet watching it, and even the person holding

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Speaker 3: even the person shooting the video, we all like, oh, yeah, nah.

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Speaker 2: But he's definitely going to jail.

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Speaker 3: That guy going to jail. Everybody else yeah might be fine.

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Speaker 3: He go to yeah and uh.

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Speaker 5: And that's pretty much where where the video stops.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so it has.

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Speaker 1: It has obviously gone everywhere since then, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of writing about like, yeah, why this has like taken

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Speaker 1: off so much and been seen as so inspirational to people.

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Speaker 1: I think it's because it seems we've all seen like

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Speaker 1: too many videos that are just kind of the first

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Speaker 1: part of this where like, yeah, there's like a bunch

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Speaker 1: of racist white pean and by the way, there's at

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Speaker 1: least you can't hear it on the video, but people

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Speaker 1: have said that, like these folks when that co captain

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Speaker 1: came down, were like shouting the inward adam and stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so we've all seen the variants of this that are

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Speaker 1: just like, yeah, some some black men or black woman

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Speaker 1: getting abused by a bunch of racists, and this one

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Speaker 1: starts looking like that and then turns into like like

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Speaker 1: a beautiful come uppets, like these people picked a fight

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Speaker 1: against a man they thought was like alone and kind

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Speaker 1: of heavy set and older, and that they could like

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Speaker 1: wail on and just wound up getting absolutely housed. Based

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Speaker 1: on at least what I'm looking at here, looks like

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Speaker 1: three of the white folks involved in this have been

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Speaker 1: charged with crimes. The police are talking to the chair guy.

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Speaker 1: It's unclear yet like what exactly charges he's gonna catch.

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Speaker 3: He was on a he was on a radio show,

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Speaker 3: a morning show in Alabama, ware with just sort of

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Speaker 3: an internet personality that like in the black community, we're

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Speaker 3: all very familiar with.

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Speaker 2: And so they asked her.

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Speaker 3: They asked him, like, the lady asked him like okay, okay,

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Speaker 3: you had to chair, And the lady was already down,

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Speaker 3: like what what what happened? He said, It feels like

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Speaker 3: it's like we wrote this script where he goes man.

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Speaker 2: I blacked out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he said, I just thought about rows of parks

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Speaker 3: and that lady that wouldn't give the seat to her.

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Speaker 2: I was like, I'll give her a chair.

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Speaker 1: But you know, fights are ugly things but also in

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Speaker 1: some ways beautiful things. It's a there's a lot going

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Speaker 1: on in this video. I'm not surprised that it's it's

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Speaker 1: been taken by so many people. There's some lessons I

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Speaker 1: think bystanders can take from this. From one thing, if

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Speaker 1: like fifty people are having a giant brawl, might want

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Speaker 1: to get out of there.

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Speaker 5: Just leave, Yeah, just bounce. You should know to leave.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, not a good thing to get in the

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Speaker 1: middle of. Second, if you're parked in someone else's boat spot,

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Speaker 1: maybe instead of shouting racial slurs, get your fucking boat moved.

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Speaker 5: It's not.

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Speaker 3: It was like, Yeah, I think what it's It speaks

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Speaker 3: to so much because this was such an avoidable situation.

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Speaker 3: You guess is completely avoidable. Bro, we just slide over

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Speaker 3: a little bit. I feel like if you've like if

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Speaker 3: you've driven a car on a highway, then you've seen

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Speaker 3: a semi truck and when the semi truck come, just get.

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Speaker 2: Out his way, Like, why is you picking this fight?

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Speaker 5: Man?

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Speaker 2: Just he can't. It's a big old at wheelerd.

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Speaker 5: Just this is courtesy.

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Speaker 3: That's a bigger So I'm just saying, like, that's a

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Speaker 3: bigger boat than you.

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Speaker 5: You're more nimble, you.

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Speaker 3: Can move, and clearly it's a line of people waiting

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Speaker 3: to get off.

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Speaker 5: I just don't understand.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, That's one of the things I think

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Speaker 1: that's involved here that's interesting to me is that there's

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Speaker 1: this This is not just I mean, like, obviously the

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Speaker 1: fact that these guys were biggots is a factor here,

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Speaker 1: but there's also just this increasingly common freedom that the

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Speaker 1: most selfish people in our society feel to be like

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Speaker 1: aggressive about the fact that they don't owe anyone else,

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Speaker 1: like basic like politeness, right, like the the very basic

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Speaker 1: Though two hundred and seventy people are being inconvenienced because

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Speaker 1: I parked my shit in the wrong space, I should bounce,

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Speaker 1: you know, I should probably at least say, oh, sorry,

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Speaker 1: I fucked up. Instead like, no, we're gonna make this

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Speaker 1: a thing because like we get to park wherever the

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Speaker 1: fuck we want and fuck you like that. That kind

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Speaker 1: of attitude is like it's so frustrating, Like I can't

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Speaker 1: even get myself into the head of someone who would

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Speaker 1: do what these guys did and not like feel like

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Speaker 1: they were an asshole, Like I had to do the

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Speaker 1: thing every now and then I think most of us

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Speaker 1: do where like I park my car in like a

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Speaker 1: a like a red zone or something, because it's like

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Speaker 1: I got to be it's like there's no spaces. I'm

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Speaker 1: thirty students, right, Yeah, and you get out and someone seeing.

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Speaker 2: You like in the fucking red and they're.

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Speaker 1: Like, yes, you know, like I know, it's sorry. Well

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Speaker 1: at one point, man, I'm sorry, Like yeah, dude.

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Speaker 5: I'm so sorry. Bro, I'm so sorry. Look I'm gone,

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Speaker 5: I'm gone.

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Speaker 4: My bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 1: And to have the the fucking hutzpa to just like,

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Speaker 1: look at a boat of two hundred and seventy people

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Speaker 1: be like, fuck all of you, like I want to

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Speaker 1: keep my stupid ass bart doing here for some reason.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and then the willingness to be like, what the

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Speaker 3: fuck you gonna do about it? Well, we'll jump you

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Speaker 3: if you get that mad, and just and whether it's

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Speaker 3: whether you're adding to either the lack of like situational

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Speaker 3: awareness or just that that overall hutzpah, like you said

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Speaker 3: of just like.

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Speaker 2: Whatever, I'll take all of.

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Speaker 3: You, like really you really really like Yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: that there's there's a lot to color here too, with

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Speaker 3: the fact that first of all, this is take where

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Speaker 3: it's taking place. I mean we're still in Montgomery, Alabama here,

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Speaker 3: and which and on a.

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Speaker 2: Dock that.

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Speaker 3: Was obviously and verifiably a dock where slaves were dropped

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Speaker 3: off at you know what I'm saying. So you have

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Speaker 3: that history, right, you have the history of the Montgomery

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Speaker 3: bus boycotts. You know what I'm saying, Like, this is

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Speaker 3: this is the city where Rosa Parks did the thing.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Like, this is where it happened.

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Speaker 3: So there's so much history in the city. And on

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Speaker 3: top of that, like I mean, there's high schools in

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Speaker 3: Alabama named Robert E. Lee, like Robert E. Lee High School,

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Speaker 3: Like we're talking about we're talking about a place that

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Speaker 3: I mean what it was in the news in the

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Speaker 3: odts that Like I mean, there was a high school

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Speaker 3: that just desegregated, like in the year twenty something, like

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Speaker 3: they got there, Yeah, yeah, they just desegregated high school.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: It made the news in twenty ten because they finally

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Speaker 3: had a desegregated prom. But that was just the prom.

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Speaker 3: And it's just that the prom white school invited to black.

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Speaker 3: They can't go to school together. They could just do

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Speaker 3: a dance with this this is where. This is the

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Speaker 3: state that this happened in. So you're like you're in

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Speaker 3: this like and I hate to like otherise them, but

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Speaker 3: I'm an otherise them in the sense that.

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Speaker 2: This is some like multiverse bizarro world.

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Speaker 5: Where you were. Desegregation is recent, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 3: So when you have that type of thing, first of all,

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Speaker 3: you have to have you have to remember, like both

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Speaker 3: of those things are sitting in sort of the collective

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Speaker 3: consciousness of that community, whether especially for the black people

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Speaker 3: who are like.

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Speaker 5: This, this is the world we live in.

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Speaker 3: But we've also proven that if you push us far enough,

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Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, like, we're not gonna stand

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Speaker 3: for it.

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Speaker 2: You know, We'll pick up a folded chair.

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Speaker 5: We'll pick up a folding chair, which has.

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Speaker 1: Become something of a symbol in the last new open carry. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I saw at least one TikTok video that was just

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Speaker 1: it was like there's like a couple of people watching

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Speaker 1: as this young black guy in a Walmart like was

386
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Speaker 1: holding up and like testing it like the way that you.

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Speaker 2: Will like a gun at the gun store.

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00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, man, the memes have been glorious.

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Speaker 5: I've seen folding chair ear rings, I've seen dot.

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00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,840
Speaker 3: But the one is this that I said, uh, I

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00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 3: said Robert a video of the folding chair getting interviewed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh he's.

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00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 3: One of the first of all, that's one of the

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00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 3: funniest accounts you could ever follow.

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Speaker 4: But he was just like you.

396
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,920
Speaker 5: I was just sitting there and then we started doing

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Speaker 5: charity work.

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00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:29,000
Speaker 2: And which account is that?

399
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,960
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Ace Vance a ce B A n CE.

400
00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 3: He does just the most incredible voiceovers. Yeah, with the

401
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 3: chair was just like, who's heading out charities?

402
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:42,840
Speaker 2: I was doing charity work.

403
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:49,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, freely given ass whoopings like have a seat, might

404
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 3: step up, have a seat anyway.

405
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 4: It's so good.

406
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 3: But I I I think that that is important. I

407
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,879
Speaker 3: think another thing that I think is just see specifically

408
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 3: for like that it can.

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Speaker 4: Happen here.

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00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 3: Audience, which I one thing I love about the show

411
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 3: is like you you give y'all give so much historical

412
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 3: context to whatever we're looking at. You know what I'm saying,

413
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 3: as as almost like proof of concept that not only

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00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 3: can it happen here, it is happening here, you know

415
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:19,119
Speaker 3: what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: And I think for this one, there was this interesting.

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Speaker 5: Moment.

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00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 3: This is another good follow for you. Guys got named Consciously.

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00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: Uh his name is the Consciously. He was like like

420
00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 3: world renown like debater, a master debater. I'm just kidding, uh,

421
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 3: but he was a world renowned debater. He was one

422
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,119
Speaker 3: of the first like like him and his partner was

423
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,520
Speaker 3: like the first black like co champions in like professional

424
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 3: debate or college level debate anyway.

425
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:55,879
Speaker 2: So he's a brilliant, brilliant thinker.

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Speaker 3: He's like you know, YouTube early year styles whatever, right anyway,

427
00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,919
Speaker 3: content creator. Anyway, he brought up this this point among

428
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,760
Speaker 3: sort of the the black community that what came out

429
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 3: of this too was this hashtag of like yo were

430
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:15,439
Speaker 3: we are not our ancestors, you know which, as I

431
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 3: understand the sentiment, it also shows sort of a lack

432
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 3: of historical knowledge of like really how our ancestors handled slavery.

433
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Speaker 2: Like yeah, like of the amount of resistance.

434
00:22:31,520 --> 00:22:33,920
Speaker 3: The amount of resistance we actually had, you know what

435
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,000
Speaker 3: I'm saying. And and even just like I would even

436
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: courage just like a simple Google search of the amount

437
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:42,160
Speaker 3: of rebellions, you know, you just whether you're talking about

438
00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 3: the famous ones like the Haitian rebellion, which we did

439
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: a bastard's pot about, you know what I'm saying, We're

440
00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 3: like these fool these fools threw off their their oppressors.

441
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 4: You have.

442
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:57,160
Speaker 3: Nah Turner, you know what I'm saying, which I talk

443
00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 3: about more on on on hood politics, but like I

444
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:04,720
Speaker 3: my seventh grade like historical figure report was on net

445
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: Turner and I was busted like a suburban like middle

446
00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 3: school for a little bit.

447
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 2: So I'm walking into the suburban middle.

448
00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 3: School with my NAT Turner paper.

449
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 2: My poor English teacher she hadn't been thinking.

450
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 3: I don't know what she was thinking. But anyway, Yeah,

451
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. You have like there was one,

452
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 3: there was there were one in New York. There was

453
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,480
Speaker 3: the one during the Thirteen Colonies. Like we have such

454
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: a history of like rebellion and resistance, Like don't think

455
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 3: not to mention slave ships that were overtaken, you know

456
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,159
Speaker 3: what I'm saying by their captors, Like you know what

457
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 3: I'm saying, So like these things have there is a

458
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 3: rich history of us of US rebelling. So like it's

459
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 3: almost a point a point of lesson, a point of

460
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: learning for the black community too.

461
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:55,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's uh, like a really useful

462
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: teachable moment. While everyone's kind of amped up about this

463
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: thing to talk about it. I've heard it described as

464
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: like left handed power, uh kind of in some books

465
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 1: that would talk about not just you know what we've

466
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: been chatting about, which are these kind of big moments

467
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: of insurrection among enslaved people, but like the everyday acts

468
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: of resistance by people who were enslaved, like while they

469
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 1: are you know, on the plantation stuff, different ways of

470
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 1: like pulling autonomy of like you know, teaching their kids

471
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,479
Speaker 1: how to read, or you know, taking you know, getting

472
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,439
Speaker 1: things like money or extra resources you know out of

473
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,640
Speaker 1: the out of the people who are attempting to uh yeah,

474
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 1: to own them. Like methods of escape and resistance, you know,

475
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: all these methods of like preserving traditional art and religion

476
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 1: while you know, in chains like all that kind of

477
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,959
Speaker 1: stuff is also Yeah, I hope it. I hope it

478
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,320
Speaker 1: like spurs some of that, you know, the the the

479
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: folding chair can be added to a richtory of resistance.

480
00:24:53,440 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, and yeah, I'm also curious around like obviously

481
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,879
Speaker 3: you and I on this on that are currently being recorded,

482
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,920
Speaker 3: plus a lot of the community that both of us

483
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 3: represent like yeah, we're not pacifists like you at all,

484
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. And I find that discourse

485
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,159
Speaker 3: to be interesting too, and especially.

486
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 5: Around you know if you're you're and I'm like, you know,

487
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 5: neither is.

488
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 3: The broader racist community, Like y're not pacifist either, Like

489
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 3: you ask for the smoke, you got the smoke.

490
00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like what is more American than this?

491
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: It's I think a more optimistic chapter, especially like as

492
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: we head into twenty twenty four, as we deal with

493
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: like kind of these continuing efforts to disenfranchise particularly black

494
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 1: voters across large chunks of South. I'm glad that we've

495
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:08,560
Speaker 1: got this, Uh what will hopefully continue to be a

496
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: powerful image for people to kind of rally behind. This

497
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: is a this is a nice thing to have. It's

498
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: a I don't know, and it's interesting, like people things

499
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: are said in a video like this that is just

500
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 1: kind of like chaotic brawling, but it speaks to people

501
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: in a way that you know, a history textbook, uh

502
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 1: maybe isn't going to reach them, because there's just something

503
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: so kinetic and powerful about like watching watching a large

504
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: group of people realize that an injustice is going down

505
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,639
Speaker 1: and then be like, well, I guess we've got to

506
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: throw throw hands to stop this shit.

507
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

508
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, It's a microcosm of like a century and a

509
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: half or so of or a couple of centuries of history.

510
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 3: Whether it's yeah, whether it's a absolutely the couple.

511
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: Centuries of history.

512
00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 3: And then you're like at at least ten years of witnessing,

513
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 3: you know, black bodies being brutalized when no one, when

514
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 3: no one was there to help, you know what i mean.

515
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: Just seeing the video and.

516
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then seeing no recourse like okay, well there's

517
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 3: well there's never I mean, are we gonna wait for

518
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,840
Speaker 3: the justice system? You know, the best thing we've gotten

519
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 3: so far is like no no knock warrants. I mean, thanks,

520
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,199
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Like, you know, at a

521
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 3: state you know, like so so and and a lot

522
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 3: of promises of police reform, you know what I'm saying.

523
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: So you just you don't.

524
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:43,719
Speaker 3: I mean, like during Trump's presidency, there was I mean,

525
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 3: there was an uptick in lynching, Like you know what

526
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 3: I'm saying, Like these fools.

527
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: A getting old school, you know.

528
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: So it is without hearing any video, without knowing anything

529
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 3: that those men were actually saying, whether they were just

530
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: running the mill pricks or just pricks, whatever it was.

531
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 3: It is a Again, if you're a if you're a

532
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:13,920
Speaker 3: black person in Alabama, it is completely reasonable to believe

533
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: that if we wasn't there to help, that man would

534
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,240
Speaker 3: have been on the bottom of that river. Yeah, that

535
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 3: man would have been strung up in a tree in

536
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 3: the woods and we hadn't never seen him again.

537
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:26,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

538
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: I mean, just the the the sheer like rapidity with

539
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: which he was surrounded and put on the ground by

540
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: a large number of men did not suggest that they

541
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: were that the uh, that the additional dudes who had

542
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 1: arrived to wail on him were in a mood to

543
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: like de escalate the situation.

544
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

545
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's like, I mean, I feel like that's

546
00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: like a reality that uh, you know, you this it's

547
00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:57,480
Speaker 3: almost like for the rest of the country, it's like

548
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: this if you underst like, this is the reality we

549
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 3: need you to understand when we say I could die,

550
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying, Like when you talk about

551
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 3: racism and not thing, it's just some people are stupid.

552
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: There's fucking bigots everywhere. Like no, when we say it's

553
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 3: life or death, like you' that's what you're witnessing, Like

554
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 3: he could have died that moment, you know what I'm saying.

555
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 3: And I think at a at a whether it's front

556
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,239
Speaker 3: of mine or back of mine. That is something that

557
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: as a person of color, like you just kind of

558
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: know that like this, this would this if it would

559
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: have just been a fight, you know what I'm saying.

560
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 5: Then, I think if it was just just.

561
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 3: Been a brawl, like most people would have just stayed

562
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 3: out of it, Like if them to just if.

563
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: They just prescribe guys swinging on each other a smart play,

564
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: if it's just two guys swinging on each other, just yeah, you.

565
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 3: Take your phone on your watch, You're just like, all right, man, hey,

566
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 3: get your licks in. You know, you cheer for your boy,

567
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 3: but like jump but when somebody jumps in, it's like, Okay,

568
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: I'm gonna help the homie. But you jump in helping

569
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: the homie in Montgomery, Alabama. But it's like, all right,

570
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:05,719
Speaker 3: yeah this he might die. So it's different.

571
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: Anything else to get to on this, Man.

572
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 3: I think I might be I think one more thing

573
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 3: I think to add color to this, and I might

574
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 3: be like aggrandizing, but I think it's also important because

575
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: what I'm what I'm really interested in is just the collective,

576
00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 3: cathartic sort of feeling this has had. Is because there's

577
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 3: so much built up tension. You have to talk about

578
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 3: the Florida of it all, you know what I'm.

579
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 5: Saying, and being aware of the idea that like you're.

580
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: Right in front of our face, like you're trying to

581
00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,120
Speaker 3: erase history, you know what I'm saying. Like and and

582
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 3: I just five minutes ago watched that prager you video

583
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 3: for kids about about Christopher Columbus and slavery, and it

584
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: was just like, well, you know, and this is approved, approved,

585
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 3: approved content for children, Like, well, you know, at least

586
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: we didn't kill them, yeah, you know what I'm saying,

587
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 3: And like, well, you know, you know, in Europe, we

588
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 3: don't we draw the line at like cannibalism. And these

589
00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 3: people that we're enslaving like they practice.

590
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 2: It, you know.

591
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: So I guess it's kind of you know, maybe slavery's

592
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: not bad, and slavery, I mean it's all over the world.

593
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: They've always had slavery, you know what I'm saying.

594
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: So like they learned useful skills, yeah, I mean, you know.

595
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 5: Okay, so there are skills in Africa.

596
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: Like so you're trying to tell me.

597
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 3: This this civilation's civilization that is the bedrock of civilizations

598
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 3: where all the humanity come from.

599
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying, We didn't know how to

600
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 5: do nothing right.

601
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, Like if you're yeah, it's it's

602
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: it's so frustrating because it's it's what you could. I

603
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: think they're trying to like draw line between I don't know.

604
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: The way slavery was often practiced in like the Mediterranean,

605
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 1: where there was a lot of manumission, people were often freed,

606
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: and when they were freed, there was not like ongoing

607
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: stigma against having been a former slave with like a

608
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: racial slavery system. In the Americas that was completely different,

609
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: where manumission very rarely happened, and when it did, you

610
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: were still subject to heinous restrictions on your personal liberty.

611
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: Like it's just not a comparison, Yeah, trying to use

612
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 3: the lack of awareness of just even the term slavery

613
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: and what you mean by that, you know what I'm saying,

614
00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 3: using it to your advantage. It's like, well, anyone you

615
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 3: know who's read a book or two can be like, ah,

616
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 3: what you did was different.

617
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,880
Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying, and you know and you

618
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 5: know it.

619
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 2: You know it's different. You know what I'm saying.

620
00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like serfdom, you know, involuntary servitude, debt, slavery. Any whenever,

621
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 3: if there was ever two tribes and a tribe got

622
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 3: raided by another one, there was slavery. Like I know,

623
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: like that it exists since the dawn of time. Not

624
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 3: what you talking about though, you know what I'm saying

625
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 3: you and you know it. You know, so you're playing

626
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 3: on that.

627
00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 2: So I just think like collectively us just like.

628
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 3: Keep hearing this shit and keep having to like, you know,

629
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 3: keep your cool and try to fight it in the

630
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 3: ballots and just and just the.

631
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 2: The just the mind fuck of like.

632
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 3: These folks, y'all, really you're gonna you're gonna vote for

633
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 3: a dude that's out on bail, that's a felon like

634
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 3: this Sniggs face in seventy years and y'all really finna,

635
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: y'all really finna you really trying to put this man.

636
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 5: In office again? Like just it's such a mind fuck

637
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 5: that you're like, man, I just.

638
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 3: Need to hit I just need to hit a white

639
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: lady with a chair, Like I don't, I just I'm

640
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 3: just gonna hit a white lady to the chair. Yeah yeah,

641
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,359
Speaker 3: And we you know something I've I've brought up many

642
00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 3: times on the politics is understanding sort of like the

643
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 3: collective sort of Black American psyche is we just processed

644
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 3: trauma through humor, like we when we make a joke

645
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: out of everything, and it's really so we're just not

646
00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 3: like pushing random white people in the moving traffic, you.

647
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 5: Know, just because if not, you'd being like what's his name?

648
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 3: James Baldwin says that he was like to be black

649
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 3: in America is to I'm butchering the quote, but to

650
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: be constantly under the surface at a rage level that

651
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:54,479
Speaker 3: you're constantly trying to push down, you know what I'm saying.

652
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 5: So I feel like the humor, why.

653
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 3: Why we got so many jokes about like nah, chare

654
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 3: chair homie going to jail, Like here go your bail money?

655
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 3: But it was amazing because like you just good job,

656
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 3: you know, I'm saying, an aquaman coming out the water,

657
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,399
Speaker 3: Like why why we make jokes about it? Is like well, yeah,

658
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,479
Speaker 3: I mean this is it's funny and if not, we'd

659
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 3: be enraged all the time.

660
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, Well, prop amen, I do feel like this

661
00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: is a good lead in for the fact that we

662
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: are we are actively well preparing to do our Robert E.

663
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 1: Lee episodes which have taken a lot of reading. But

664
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna enjoy.

665
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: I can't wait.

666
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, because again I just like I'm already locking and

667
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: loading the jokes like I can't.

668
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he's such a baby, I think you Like

669
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: that was the thing that surprised me, Like I expected, like, Okay, well,

670
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,320
Speaker 1: this guy's, you know, a bad person for obvious reasons,

671
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: being the military leader of the Confederacy, but like the

672
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: degree to which this dude is a fucking baby is

673
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 1: uh right. Yeah, we're gonna have a good time with

674
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: this one.

675
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: I also, I also, as a thought experiment, my question

676
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:12,360
Speaker 3: would be, Okay, Robert Evans, if you were in Montgomery

677
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 3: at that moment, I just how would you handle that.

678
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: I mean, if I see a bunch of people wailing

679
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 1: on a single dude, even outside of a situation where

680
00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: it's clearly racist, I'm going to try to stop that

681
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: because I don't want to watch someone get beaten to

682
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,720
Speaker 1: death in the street. Yeah, like, unless they have it coming.

683
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, if it's like a guy with a

684
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,800
Speaker 1: swastika armband and people are kicking him on the ground,

685
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: I might not intervene I don't know, and that I

686
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: might in that case, I might just to try to

687
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: stop people from catching a fucking murder charge. But like, yeah,

688
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 1: I feel like now at the point at which there's

689
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: like sixty people fighting on the dock, I don't know

690
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: that I'm I'm running into that. Like for one thing,

691
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: it seems like enough people are there. But yeah, you see,

692
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: you see a bunch of people like kicking the shit

693
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: out of a man trying to do his job.

694
00:36:58,680 --> 00:36:59,840
Speaker 2: You should try to.

695
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like those fucking security should have gotten in

696
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: there faster. But like, yes, I I would hope that

697
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: I would run in at that point an attempt to

698
00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: stop this what was happening. Yeah, absolutely, that's good. And

699
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 1: I would have had the presence of mind to pick

700
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: up that chair though the.

701
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 3: Chair is Yeah, no, I just I would hope that,

702
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 3: like it would be I just wonder, like because again,

703
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 3: once you black out and get punch drunk, it's like

704
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 3: I would hope that, like they that the black people

705
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 3: around have the wherewithal to be like no, no, no, no,

706
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 3: he's with us.

707
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we'll say, yeah that dude's with us. No no, no, no,

708
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 2: he's with us.

709
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 5: He's good he's good, he's good.

710
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: I think that's that's part of why you don't roll

711
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 1: in when there's like sixty people fighting also at that point, yeah, yeah,

712
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to tell how do you how do

713
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,640
Speaker 1: you help? And if you've got like five people beating

714
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 1: a man on the ground, it's easy to know how

715
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,359
Speaker 1: to help. You try to get that guy up and

716
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:57,399
Speaker 1: away from them. You try to get them off of him.

717
00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: If you've got what are effectively like two or three

718
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: dozen fights going on on a doc, it's like, well,

719
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 1: do you just like start throwing hands like yeah.

720
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, everybody puts somebody Yeah, just like you know,

721
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,160
Speaker 3: you just grab like find children and just kind of

722
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 3: like let me just move.

723
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 2: Y'all out the way, y'all back up? Yeah, yeah, yeah

724
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:18,240
Speaker 2: you should.

725
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: I think when you're anytime you're in encountering a situation

726
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:23,839
Speaker 1: like this, like your first is like.

727
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: What can I do that will help? You?

728
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: Know, again, it's easy if you if there's a guy

729
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 1: getting beaten, or if there's someone seriously injured that needs

730
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: medical care, if it's at a point where it's like,

731
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 1: well this is just fucking chaos, then maybe you just

732
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: watch yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

733
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 3: Get it, get it, get a higher vantage point. Just

734
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 3: make sure you can watch the watch where it's going.

735
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: You don't want to get sucked in, you know, because

736
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 3: you might get trampled.

737
00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying.

738
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, keep your fucking don't. Don't fall into your

739
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: phone because ship like that spreads.

740
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, yes, yeah, so true. Yeah, well that's a

741
00:38:56,120 --> 00:39:02,760
Speaker 3: usable piece of information. Yeah for this otherwise just jokes

742
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 3: full podcast yep.

743
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well we all had a good time today.

744
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 7: Prop.

745
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: Where can the people find you if they if they

746
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: would like to do that?

747
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 3: Man, please, I am on the same network you are.

748
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:17,919
Speaker 3: I'm on the Hood Politics Pod. My socials are all

749
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: the they're all prop hip hop. Like you said, I

750
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 3: am a coffee business owner. It's terraform cold Brew. You

751
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 3: could use promo code hood and get fifteen percent off

752
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 3: your cold brew needs Please help me sell Please buy

753
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 3: his coffee. Good Lord, I saw a lot of money

754
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,879
Speaker 3: into this shit. Please buy the coffee. But yeah, man,

755
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: prop hip Hop and yeah and yeah and Hood Politics Pod.

756
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 3: I'm on the network, man, and please check out the show.

757
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, check out Hood Politics, check out props Delightful Coffee

758
00:39:55,960 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: and yeah, you can find us right here. Tomorrow, unless

759
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: it's a weekend, in which case you can find us

760
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 1: here when the weekend ends the next weekday. We're here

761
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: every weekday. We never stop. It could happen here. A

762
00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: podcast about frustrating people and frustrating times. That's not all

763
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: it's about. Sometimes we talk about nice things like raising

764
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 1: sheep or unionization efforts, you know, the endless struggle of

765
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,800
Speaker 1: working people to better the world. Yeah, but not today.

766
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 1: Today we're having a real, real piece of shit episode

767
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 1: about a real piece of shit, and it's gonna make

768
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: everybody unhappy. Hello Garrison, Hello James. How are you both

769
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: doing today?

770
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,600
Speaker 2: So much better for hearing that, Robert, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

771
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:03,400
Speaker 8: Just ready to have a fine evening here yet about

772
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,320
Speaker 8: something that's probably very fun.

773
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, go to bed. You don't have you don't have

774
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: your Soda Stream disappointed in you. Yeah, James and I

775
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: are now soda Stream pilled.

776
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 8: I've not gotten the company Soda Stream yet. That hasn't

777
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 8: must generational thing.

778
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the unfortunately the company beverage is is Billy Beer.

779
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: Uh Billy Carter Jimmy Carter's Brothers beer that was on

780
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 1: sale for roughly a year in the nineteen seventies.

781
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 2: Is it made of peanuts? If only?

782
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 1: No, So today let's start. I got a question for you.

783
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: Have either of you seen the Barbie movie?

784
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,479
Speaker 2: Yes? I have. I was it well done?

785
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 3: Gear?

786
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't go, buddy sol Gear.

787
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 8: The said dressing was was nice?

788
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: It was.

789
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 8: It was a great lesson in like liberal recuperation. I'm sure,

790
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:58,960
Speaker 8: I'm sure. I'm sure it'll be great for like kids

791
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 8: who like don't know who like don't know what feminism is.

792
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 8: But but yeah.

793
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems I have not watched it either. It

794
00:42:06,080 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like my kind of movie, but it seems

795
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,960
Speaker 1: broadly act correct me if I'm wrong here, that it

796
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: has what you might call like very very modest and

797
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: fairly mainstream, approachable feminist messaging. Yeah, yeah, that seems like

798
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: it's fair, which most people would not be particularly angry about.

799
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: But a sizable chunk of the very online right, the

800
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: chunk of the right, particularly that makes their living by

801
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: having takes on shit has has has been up in

802
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: arms ever since it came out, and particularly ever since

803
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: it made more than a billion dollars in the box office.

804
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: I'm sure a lot of people are aware that our

805
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: old friend Ben Shapiro filmed a forty two minute video

806
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:56,839
Speaker 1: tearing it apart and his signature preteen stolen valor voice

807
00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 1: a boy.

808
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 8: After I watched the movie, me and some friends tried

809
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 8: to watch the Ben Shapiro video for fun. We made

810
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 8: it like six minutes in, and that everyone forced me

811
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 8: to stop.

812
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:09,399
Speaker 2: Intolerable shit.

813
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: Cowards. Cowards are cowards. But that's yeah. So elsewhere in

814
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: the right and kind of the less mainstream acceptable chunks

815
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: of what we'd call the insurgent right around here, various

816
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: thought leaders attempted to declare the movie stealth conservative propaganda

817
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,439
Speaker 1: as a way of insisting that its success was really

818
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: due to it being anti woke. That's silly too. None

819
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: of this is worth discussing in detail. I promise you

820
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 1: all this is not going to be a podcast about

821
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 1: the fucking Barbie movie. None of this is worth discussing

822
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: in detail, save to say that Shapiro's anger at the movie,

823
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: and particularly its comic relief character Ken, seems to have

824
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: been the more wide spread response from those kinds of people. Now,

825
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 1: because I have made, over the years a lot of

826
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: poor decisions in my browsing and engaging habits over the years,

827
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 1: Twitter sends me a lot of weirdo right wing responses

828
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: to everything that happens in the world, including this movie.

829
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: And one of these posts that I caught somewhere in

830
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 1: late July or on the twenty second, twenty third, caught

831
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: my eye. Now, this post features a vapor wave filtered

832
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: kin photoshopped in front of a burning Viking long house,

833
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: accompanied by the text exit the long house. Now, when

834
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 1: you see something like this and you don't know what

835
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: they're getting at, like, you have two choices. If you're like,

836
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 1: you get like, I don't know, kids, a really demanding job,

837
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,840
Speaker 1: anything at all going on in your personal life, you

838
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:35,279
Speaker 1: scroll right past it. If you're me, you spend like

839
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: four and a half hours reading various fascist essays about

840
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: feminism to try to figure out what the fuck a

841
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 1: long house has to do with the Barbie movie. Now,

842
00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: the guy who had made this post is a low

843
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: level fascist political columnist named Lomez. He is, He's kind

844
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,920
Speaker 1: of on me. He's a little bit of volapild. He

845
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:01,839
Speaker 1: doesn't he's not like a very major figure. He's kind

846
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 1: of several steps below anyone you've heard of. I would say,

847
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 1: like two or three steps standard deviations of fame below

848
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,000
Speaker 1: like Jack Pisobiec, but his writing has a degree of

849
00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: purchase among the kinds of conservatives who trick Ron DeSantis

850
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: into running in comprehensible campaign ads with son and rads in.

851
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: Them he has.

852
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,919
Speaker 1: He's like, he's got a little bit of influence among

853
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: that kind of crew, and he's sort of in the

854
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: conversation with a lot of those people. I took notice

855
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 1: of his post because I'd seen the term long house

856
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,360
Speaker 1: being used by a couple of these guys off and on,

857
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,399
Speaker 1: and because Lomes's posts got like three thousand something likes,

858
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: which meant that, yeah, there's some community out there that

859
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 1: that gets what he's talking about. So on a whim,

860
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: I clicked to viewed the quote tweets for this post,

861
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,760
Speaker 1: and I found a post by a user named Siege,

862
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:50,760
Speaker 1: which is of course a reference to a book about

863
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 1: carrying out acts of terrorism in order to bring about

864
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: a white Ethno state. The post says, ken is you.

865
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: He is an exaggerated Western man in the twenty first century, anxious, confused,

866
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 1: chasing women who don't care about him. He exits the

867
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: long House and discovers his own will to power. Like you,

868
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:10,960
Speaker 1: he decides to bring this knowledge back to his fellow man.

869
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: And it's you know, I'm gonna I'll show you guys

870
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: this this post here, it's.

871
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,439
Speaker 2: Pretty it's pretty Nazi. Yeah, pretty pretty pretty Nazi. It's

872
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 2: not the best work on Ken, like he guys, looks

873
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 2: like a blob.

874
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: No, I will say I have a little bit of

875
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: respect for the craft here that he didn't just go

876
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: to an ai that looks like somebody like crudely cut

877
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 1: a picture of kin that they have like color inverted

878
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,560
Speaker 1: and then photoshopped it into a picture of a long

879
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: house with a fire behind it.

880
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's too.

881
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 8: I will say Siege's description of Ken from the from

882
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 8: the from the Barbie movie is pretty accurate to what's

883
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,799
Speaker 8: in the film.

884
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: M that's good. So what is the long house? What

885
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:01,399
Speaker 1: the fuck does a long house have to do with

886
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: what are otherwise pretty standard neo Nazi esque messaging about,

887
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, the decadence and failure of modern man and

888
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,760
Speaker 1: all that kind of shit. And is this dumb fascist

889
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,360
Speaker 1: memes something that you need to care about now? Unfortunately

890
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: the answer to that is yes, because all of this

891
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: ties back to one extremely influential, insurgent right wing ideologue

892
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 1: whose followers have been close to the presidency once before

893
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:29,320
Speaker 1: and may yet find themselves there again. That asshole is

894
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: an MI I T graduate named Kostin Alamaru who posts

895
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: online under variations of the name Bronze Age Pervert. You guys,

896
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 1: how aware are you of Bronze Age Pervert or BAP,

897
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:42,879
Speaker 1: as he's often known.

898
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 2: Ah, I've heard of BAP, but maybe only in passing

899
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,560
Speaker 2: because I wasn't familiar with Bronze Age pervert. Thank you, Yeah,

900
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:55,239
Speaker 2: thank you so much for sharing with me today, Robert. Oh, oh,

901
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 2: you're going to be so much less happy, Garrison. Are

902
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 2: you familiar with this fella?

903
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 8: I I think I may have only seen stuff from

904
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 8: him in passing. I'm not overly familiar now.

905
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was kind of my experience until like a

906
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: month or so ago when I started really digging into

907
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: the guy. And I don't feel better as a result

908
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: of having done that. But yeah, we know that this

909
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 1: guy's actual name is Kostin Alamariu because of a very

910
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: recent Atlantic articles like a month ago that this guy

911
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 1: got revealed in this article because this writer for the

912
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: Atlantic was a friend of his, like at mit, like

913
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: it was just somebody who like and recognized his voice

914
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 1: on a podcast. Now, this article, I find it frustrating

915
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 1: for a number of reasons. I don't think it's great

916
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 1: analysis of BAP's work or what people find appealing in it,

917
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,879
Speaker 1: or a particularly honest, intellectual look at what this guy

918
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: has to say. But it does have some interesting reveals,

919
00:48:50,160 --> 00:48:54,280
Speaker 1: including the fact that bronze age perverts. First public media

920
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 1: appearance was a parody audio tour for an exhibition at

921
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:01,360
Speaker 1: the Boston Museum of Fine Arts, written by bj Novak,

922
00:49:01,400 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: who played Ryan in The Office. Yeah, so that's odd,

923
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: and it's one of those BJ Novak is not a

924
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 1: stealth Nazi, don't worry. But the video or the thing

925
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: that they put together does kind of fit for like

926
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: a fascist art project. And I I'm going to read

927
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,600
Speaker 1: how The Atlantic describes this audio tour they put together together,

928
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 1: or put that they assembled together. Novak had recruited a

929
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: Romanian classmate with a deep voice, and together they'd recorded

930
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 1: an audio tour for the exhibition, Tales from the Land

931
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: of Dragons a Thousand Years of Chinese Painting, with the

932
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 1: help of friends. They then slipped cassettes containing their tour

933
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: into the museum's official audio guides. Art lovers must have

934
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 1: wondered about the thick Eastern European accent that greeted them

935
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: over the twang of a Chinese string instrument. The Romanians

936
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: soon became opinionated. Personally, he said, I think this painting

937
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: is a piece of crap. Then deranged, he alluded to

938
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 1: his disgusting anatomical abnormalities. He called his listeners decadent in

939
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 1: heerialless maggots, and confessed a desire to smash a glass

940
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: case with a sledgehammer and rip a scroll to shreds

941
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,799
Speaker 1: with my teeth, which, by the way, are extremely long

942
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: and sharp, more like fangs than human teeth. At last,

943
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: he offered an interlude of idiot music while he fumbled

944
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: with his script. This should keep you occupied, you drooling, imbecile,

945
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,880
Speaker 1: he bellowed at the listeners, by now either amused or

946
00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: complaining to management. So there's like there's like little little

947
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: whiffs of degenerate art stuff in there, but it's also

948
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 1: just kind of like like a little bit like Max

949
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: head roomy kind of stuff, like where you're kind of

950
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: tricking people into into into consuming this like parody artwork thing.

951
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 1: Like again, I think this was a pretty innocent joke.

952
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: On Novak's fall part. But Costin number one probably got

953
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 1: picked for this because he's a He's got a thick

954
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: Romanian accent that he very much plays up. He was

955
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:56,880
Speaker 1: noted in this time as kind of talking like Dracula deliberately.

956
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: He also would always wear these like long and elaborate

957
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: black coats so that he kind of looked like a

958
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: Dracula type figure, like he was, you know, he was

959
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: he was doing a bit. He was putting on like

960
00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: a That was the image he wanted to He wanted

961
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: to portray himself as to people's kind of like mysterious

962
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: and Eastern Europeans sort of sort of figure.

963
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 2: Now.

964
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: Costin first started posting as Bronze age pervert on a

965
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: series of obscure web forums in twenty ten. In the

966
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,640
Speaker 1: November of twenty thirteen, he joined Twitter and immediately fell

967
00:51:27,680 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: in with a loose community that some people call frog Twitter.

968
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 1: And these are you know who these guys are. It's

969
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: like a general term for anonymous alt right adjacent posters

970
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 1: with like pepe avatars. Yeah, and the other group the

971
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: kind of related people that he fell in with and

972
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 1: that he started to have traction with our adherents to

973
00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:51,280
Speaker 1: a fascist philosopher known as Curtis Jarvin or Minsius Moldbug.

974
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: Curtis is his real name, Minsius Moldbug is the pseudonym

975
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: he wrote under Now.

976
00:51:57,480 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 2: I know it's a it's these people through this shit, man,

977
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: it's just so pathetic, like play Dungeons and Dragons.

978
00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:09,000
Speaker 1: Just a solid twenty percent of our fascist problems are

979
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 1: like people didn't get a reliable D and D group

980
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:14,840
Speaker 1: early enough, like a lot of these I think Balder's

981
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: Gate three is gonna save us from a lot of

982
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:17,800
Speaker 1: these guys in the future.

983
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 2: It is the antifa computer game. Yeah.

984
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 4: So.

985
00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 1: Curtis Yarvin aka Mensius is a UC Berkeley graduate in

986
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 1: computer science who joined the tech industry and got pilled

987
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 1: on a strain of anti democratic libertarian theory.

988
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:38,240
Speaker 2: This is this is like a this is a pathway, man, Yeah,

989
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 2: this is perfect well.

990
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 1: Bronze age pervert also goes into tech after graduating from MIT. Right,

991
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 1: and like, you know, a decent number of these guys

992
00:52:46,640 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 1: come out of like Stanford and shit, like it's all, uh,

993
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 1: it's all these guys who are, in fact, to some

994
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 1: extent like intellectual elites, bronze age perverts.

995
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 2: Dad is a.

996
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 1: Teacher at MIT, like just kind of like you look

997
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 1: at like Stephen Miller's background, Right. A lot of these

998
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:05,320
Speaker 1: guys come out of like liberal academia families.

999
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 2: But anyway, it's very common.

1000
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Curtis comes out of Yeah, gets into the tech industry,

1001
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: and he writes a book kind of while he's working

1002
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: and like he's a he's a founder and stuff for

1003
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: some company. He writes a book in two thousand and

1004
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: one titled Democracy, The God That Failed, follows it up

1005
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: with a series of blog essays, and his writing becomes

1006
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: very influential amongst Silicon Valley proto fascists. Jarvin's ideas in

1007
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: Brief is that the US is run and a lot

1008
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:37,479
Speaker 1: of Western society is really run by what he calls

1009
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 1: the Cathedral, which is a mix of professors and journalists

1010
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 1: who act as a Brahmin class dominating the United States

1011
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: with a progressive state religion. He sees their egalitarian impulses

1012
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 1: as toxic the destruction of natural civic order, and advocates

1013
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:57,239
Speaker 1: for his followers to design new architectures of exit to

1014
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: replace the Cathedral with what is effectively a right wing

1015
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: to tatorship. The number one supporter of Curtis Yarvin's ideas

1016
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: and financial backer of him is Peter Teal. Teal has

1017
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: a funded Yarvin's work as a big fan of what

1018
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: he has to say and his philosophy, which is generally

1019
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: referred to as the Dark Enlightenment. And this is when

1020
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about the Dark Enlightenment, we're talking like mid

1021
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 1: aughts is kind of when this stuff starts to really

1022
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 1: take off. This is before the alt right that kind

1023
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 1: of becomes really well known nationwide. Is a is A

1024
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: is a major term. This is like in the pre

1025
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 1: and right around gamer Gate period is when he's really

1026
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,600
Speaker 1: starting to take off with a lot of folks. And

1027
00:54:38,640 --> 00:54:41,280
Speaker 1: he certainly he feeds into the alt right to Trump,

1028
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: you know, and to that period of time. But he's

1029
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 1: much more on the the pseudo intellectual end of things

1030
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: as opposed to the like hitting folks in the street

1031
00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: end of things. That's what he gets a lot of

1032
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 1: Peter Teal money. So, uh yeah, Bronze age pervert is

1033
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 1: kind of a He espouses a philosophy that rhymes with

1034
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:07,120
Speaker 1: moldbugs with Jarvin's philosophy in many ways, but where Jarvin

1035
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:10,160
Speaker 1: dresses his words and is writing up in a costume

1036
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 1: version of mainstream academic discourse. Bronze age Pervert is unapot

1037
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 1: apologetically online and weird, and he writes like somebody who

1038
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: spends too much fucking time on the Internet. A lot

1039
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 1: of his stuff is cloaked in things that are like

1040
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: half jokes, or at least want to be have plausible

1041
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: deniability of jokes, so that like, if you take them seriously,

1042
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:31,680
Speaker 1: he can make fun of you for falling for the bit.

1043
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: But he describes himself on Twitter as an aspiring nudist, bodybuilder,

1044
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: free speech and anti zeno estrogen activist, so just the

1045
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: most irritating kind of guy, the normal guy. Much of

1046
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:51,200
Speaker 1: his politics centers around a worship of ancient Greece, which

1047
00:55:51,239 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 1: he believes settled on the scientifically ideal human form. He

1048
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: believes men should engage in bodybuilding and nude sunbathing to

1049
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 1: emulate the Greeks. And you'll see sometimes his followers be like, oh,

1050
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,279
Speaker 1: you're an idiot if you fell for that. But legitimately

1051
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:07,480
Speaker 1: half of what this guy posts about is just pictures

1052
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:11,839
Speaker 1: of bodybuilders and his pictures of himself being looking very

1053
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,600
Speaker 1: jacked like he's he's it's it's that if that's all

1054
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:18,839
Speaker 1: a bit. Then all he has is this silly bit

1055
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 1: because it is it is dominant in his content. BAP's

1056
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: Ancient Greek or baps ancient Greeks are incredibly straight and

1057
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:29,400
Speaker 1: hate women with a passion. One of those things is

1058
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 1: more or less right Greek like upperclass Greeks, not super

1059
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: pro women. Yeah, not woke. The Cathedral, in his eyes,

1060
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,920
Speaker 1: is an oppressive dictatorship of femininity, if not always of

1061
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: women over masculinity. Cancel culture is a particular topic of

1062
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: his ire, and he seems to see it as basically

1063
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: these that there are traditionally feminine methods of argumentation and conflict,

1064
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:57,920
Speaker 1: whether or not women are the ones doing them in

1065
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: any given situation. Cancel culture is like the purest expression

1066
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: of this, and he believes that these kind of feminine

1067
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: methods of conflict destroy masculinity and and make cultural progress impossible.

1068
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: They chain men to this kind of like he sees.

1069
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: You know how, a lot of anarchists will talk about

1070
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: how ancient societies hunter gatherer societies and like were often

1071
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 1: more egalitarian than a lot of like medieval societies classical societies,

1072
00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: and this is often a lot of folks do make

1073
00:57:28,680 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: the mistake of like idealizing these cultures. But like, that's

1074
00:57:32,080 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 1: a thing that gets talked about a lot positively by

1075
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:40,920
Speaker 1: some anarchists and I think obviously worth studying. He takes

1076
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: the opposite tact of like these ancient cultures like light,

1077
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 1: like people lived in the fucking mud and were miserable,

1078
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: and it was because they weren't a galitarian. It was

1079
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: because the women were dominating the men. Right, this is

1080
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 1: going to lead us to the long house in short order,

1081
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 1: but we have somewhat to cover right here. So he

1082
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: focuses a huge amount on anti egalitarian arguments and on

1083
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: supporting a culture dominated by strong, beautiful, powerful people who

1084
00:58:07,080 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: look like Greek statues and suppress women and anyone else

1085
00:58:10,200 --> 00:58:14,720
Speaker 1: who doesn't look sexy. Basically, you get to feel like

1086
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:16,800
Speaker 1: that's a big part of it to this guy, like

1087
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: he wants a date a dictatorship of hot, violent men,

1088
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: that's his.

1089
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: That's a big part of what he argues with. Has

1090
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 2: he watched Lenny riefenstyles Olympia, because this scene, Oh god, yeah,

1091
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: I feel like that's.

1092
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,840
Speaker 1: Playing in the back of this fucking mind at all times.

1093
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1094
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:38,080
Speaker 1: Now, bapp argues that the state in its present form

1095
00:58:38,160 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: preserves the lives of the weak and feeble minded, allowing

1096
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 1: them to oppress the naked Aryan bodybuilders, who by all

1097
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: rights ought to run things. The prime repository of his

1098
00:58:47,400 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 1: philosophy is his twenty eighteen book Bronze Age Mindset, which

1099
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: was at one point in the top one hundred and

1100
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: fifty books on Amazon. A former Trump White House official

1101
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 1: Toad Politico in twenty nineteen and if you're a young person, intelligent,

1102
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: adjacent in some way to the right, it's very likely

1103
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 1: you would have heard of it. In chapter thirty five

1104
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: of his book Bronze Age, the Bronze Age Mindset bap

1105
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: rights quote, should the tyranny that has descended on our

1106
00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: age ever gain the power it seeks and then be

1107
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,800
Speaker 1: challenged enough to feel itself in danger? The mass annihilations

1108
00:59:20,840 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 1: that will be carried out by homosexual, transsexual, and especially

1109
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 1: lesbian commissars will exceed in scale and cruelty anything that

1110
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:32,919
Speaker 1: has yet happened in known history. Imagine lesbian Mulata commissars

1111
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: with young Martin sheen face and haircut manning the future

1112
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:39,960
Speaker 1: Bergen Belsons installations that will span tens of miles.

1113
00:59:40,560 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: Yep sending you to the transgender goolag.

1114
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it's something else, And it's very funny

1115
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: because like that fucking the Atlantic writer here like talks

1116
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: about how he's he's got this like almost hypnotizing quality

1117
00:59:56,360 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: to his writing, and he's he's got this really like

1118
00:59:59,880 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 1: h fascinating mind that you just want to engage with,

1119
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: and it's I'll read you a fucking quote from this

1120
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: guy's profile on Bronze Age pervert and try not to gag.

1121
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: I consider myself a connoisseur of brilliant lunatics, and I

1122
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:18,400
Speaker 1: have a high tolerance for their lunacy if it has

1123
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: compensating virtues of say humor or ingenuity. But even I

1124
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 1: find back worrisome what starts as comedy can become something

1125
01:00:25,640 --> 01:00:29,680
Speaker 1: more sinister and bap shtick. Well sometimes hilarious shows every

1126
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:33,440
Speaker 1: sign of transforming into a mode of new far right radicalism.

1127
01:00:34,040 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: He goes on at a various point to be like, yeah,

1128
01:00:36,080 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: he likes this book that I like. So I was

1129
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 1: willing to put up with the fact that he was

1130
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: he was bigoted for years because like we would talk

1131
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:48,240
Speaker 1: about literature together, you know, I just had so much

1132
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: respect for his mind that I was willing to be

1133
01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:53,760
Speaker 1: strung along for a long time. I know, I find

1134
01:00:53,760 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 1: this guy kind.

1135
01:00:54,320 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 8: Of connoisseur, Yeah, connoisseur, A connoisseur of pig ship.

1136
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1137
01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 8: I really love sifting through all the different types of

1138
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:05,640
Speaker 8: donkey dogs.

1139
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just can't stick quite enough ship. Uh Yeah,

1140
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,480
Speaker 2: you know what make you become a cornish? There of

1141
01:01:16,640 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: dog shit? Internet content? What?

1142
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:19,439
Speaker 1: What?

1143
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:21,120
Speaker 2: James? What? James?

1144
01:01:21,200 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 4: What?

1145
01:01:21,400 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 2: Woman? Well, it's it's a Washington State Highway patrol.

1146
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: Uh, that's that's I hope they are ready for the

1147
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:31,600
Speaker 1: lesbian commissars.

1148
01:01:32,280 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 2: Oh you know, I know I am. Yeah, there the

1149
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 2: work police.

1150
01:01:39,080 --> 01:01:39,960
Speaker 1: Ah.

1151
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 2: And we'll back.

1152
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 1: We're back, We're back, We're back, We're back.

1153
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 2: We're back. Oh yeah.

1154
01:01:47,440 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: So it was Joseph Conrad's novel Nostromo that that this

1155
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:52,959
Speaker 1: Atlantic writer and UH and Bronze.

1156
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:53,880
Speaker 2: Age Pervitt both loved.

1157
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, co herorige another fucking paragraph. For many years we corresponded.

1158
01:01:58,560 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: Costin's messages arrived regularly, and the tone ranged from friendly

1159
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 1: and inquisitive to boorish and insulting. I went to South

1160
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:07,880
Speaker 1: America on assignment. He sent long messages extolling the versues

1161
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: of Jouseph Conrad's Nostromo, which is selt there set there.

1162
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 1: A friend who reads books like Nostromo and can talk

1163
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 1: about them is a friend worth putting up with.

1164
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: South America. It's fucking not even a fucking country.

1165
01:02:20,920 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 1: Just yeah, incredible South America. And like, right after that,

1166
01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: he says, after about ten years he took to calling

1167
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:30,840
Speaker 1: my friends, and then he uses a series of slurs.

1168
01:02:31,160 --> 01:02:33,280
Speaker 1: At some point he had begun bodybuilding, and he sent

1169
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 1: me a picture of himself shirtless with the message, do you.

1170
01:02:36,320 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 2: Like this pic of me? Again? Say a cuture guy.

1171
01:02:45,600 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 1: It's just a just a real genius. So Bronzets writings, Yeah,

1172
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:54,840
Speaker 1: he's obsessing one of the.

1173
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:55,600
Speaker 2: One of the Greeks.

1174
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: He's obsessed with because he's he claims it, like frames

1175
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,400
Speaker 1: himself as an expert on Greek society, which he portrays

1176
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: as something of a paradise. But he only knows about

1177
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 1: like six guys, and one of them is Alcibieties And

1178
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,680
Speaker 1: Alcibietes was an Athenian general and a statesman who was

1179
01:03:11,720 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: a big player in the Peloponnesian War. He defected from

1180
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 1: Athens to Sparta, and then from Sparta to the Persian

1181
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 1: Empire before being recalled and reinstated as an Athenian general.

1182
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:25,920
Speaker 1: He is a real motherfucker and an interesting guy. And

1183
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:28,440
Speaker 1: because he was so interesting and kind of he was

1184
01:03:28,560 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: very charismatic in his own time and this kind of

1185
01:03:31,040 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 1: like very shady figure two, he becomes an early celebrity.

1186
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,959
Speaker 1: He's like one of the first famous people that's really

1187
01:03:38,000 --> 01:03:40,120
Speaker 1: out there. And a big part of why he stays

1188
01:03:40,160 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 1: famous is that Plato will write a lot about him

1189
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 1: and Socrates, right, and Plato's at writing I think after

1190
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,880
Speaker 1: they're dead, So a lot of Alcibiades is like a

1191
01:03:50,960 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 1: character written by Plato as opposed to the actual historical

1192
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: fact about the dude. It's also worth noting, given how

1193
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:01,960
Speaker 1: anti queer bap is, that Alies and Socrates were lovers.

1194
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 2: Uh.

1195
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:06,800
Speaker 1: Socrates was like famously kind of a simp for Alcibieties,

1196
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,160
Speaker 1: while Alcibieties was kind of a piece of shit to Socrates.

1197
01:04:11,280 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: A lot of fun stories about that. But these guys

1198
01:04:13,840 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 1: were not at all straight.

1199
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:20,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Pederastie was an institution in ancient Greece.

1200
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 2: That pederaste is the same as being no, no.

1201
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think that's the same as what

1202
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: was going on with these duodoes.

1203
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, these dudes are just yeah, yeah, yeah, happy for

1204
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:31,400
Speaker 2: mm hmm.

1205
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: Bronze age perverts. Rants are profoundly silly to anyone who

1206
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: wasn't a deranged chud obsessing over white girls don't like

1207
01:04:38,440 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: him while shooting steroids into his ass. But because that's

1208
01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:45,360
Speaker 1: a fertile demographic, he has influence among some important conservatives

1209
01:04:45,560 --> 01:04:46,320
Speaker 1: form the White House.

1210
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 2: Shot in the technical sense of the word, yeah not not,

1211
01:04:49,760 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: after all, those steroids using too much. Well, and none of.

1212
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,439
Speaker 1: These guys will let themselves touch a walms because they're

1213
01:04:57,560 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 1: they're so they're so horrified by the cons of women.

1214
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:06,120
Speaker 1: So former White House speech writer Darren Beattie followed him

1215
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:09,360
Speaker 1: on Twitter and interacted with his writing, as did Minnesota

1216
01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: State Senator Roger Chamberlain. Curtis Jarvin called him his White

1217
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,479
Speaker 1: House cell leader. This is interesting to me because BAP

1218
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:20,440
Speaker 1: himself has encouraged his young followers to avoid supporting him

1219
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 1: in public and instead of hide their sympathies while taking

1220
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 1: positions in the government to institute his ideas. It's also

1221
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 1: worth noting that you can find some fans of bronze

1222
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,880
Speaker 1: h pervert on the so called anti woke left. There's

1223
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:35,480
Speaker 1: clips out there from the red Scare podcast, which the

1224
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 1: less set about the better, where the two hosts read

1225
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 1: segments of his book with a what seems like a

1226
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,800
Speaker 1: degree of appreciation, calling it the good kind of racist.

1227
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:45,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1228
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,400
Speaker 8: Does that also makes sense in terms of their condess

1229
01:05:49,560 --> 01:05:51,560
Speaker 8: they're like anti feminist stuff that they did.

1230
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 4: Yes?

1231
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 1: Yes, And I think his his writings, he has a

1232
01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:59,200
Speaker 1: very like florid purple prose style. I don't think it's

1233
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 1: good writing. I don't find it particularly engaging. It's very

1234
01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 1: channy and kind of exhausting. But people who are dumbfall

1235
01:06:08,440 --> 01:06:11,600
Speaker 1: for it. So yeah, yeah, he's hit his demo.

1236
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 4: Well.

1237
01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:12,720
Speaker 2: Now.

1238
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,040
Speaker 1: His influence is significant enough that some conservatives have sought

1239
01:06:16,040 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 1: to explain it. I found a fun write up on

1240
01:06:18,120 --> 01:06:22,080
Speaker 1: americanmind dot org that describes his appeal this way. So,

1241
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:24,720
Speaker 1: what exactly is the teaching of Bronze age mindset and

1242
01:06:24,720 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 1: why is it so attractive to so many young men?

1243
01:06:27,200 --> 01:06:29,760
Speaker 1: The answer I think is simple. It is a revitalized

1244
01:06:29,800 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: paganism obsessed with strength and beauty. It appeals to today's

1245
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,520
Speaker 1: young men because these things, strength and beauty are exactly

1246
01:06:35,520 --> 01:06:38,560
Speaker 1: what contemporary society has tried so hard to deny them.

1247
01:06:38,840 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 1: The gospel of son and steel, of vitalism and strength

1248
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:43,960
Speaker 1: and power are exactly would have been denied to the

1249
01:06:44,000 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 1: boys of the Western world, and their spirits militate against this.

1250
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 1: Everything great ever achieved, Bap tells us, was done through

1251
01:06:50,320 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 1: strong friendships between two men or brotherhoods of men. And

1252
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: this includes all great political things, all acts of political

1253
01:06:56,720 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 1: freedom and power.

1254
01:06:59,240 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 2: Now, I should note.

1255
01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: Part of what he's BAP gets at when he's talking

1256
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 1: about how these strong groups, friendships of between two men

1257
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:09,200
Speaker 1: or small brotherhoods of men. He is a big advocate

1258
01:07:09,200 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 1: and one of the reasons why he is popular among

1259
01:07:11,200 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: like the Adam Waffen set is he's a big advocate

1260
01:07:13,680 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 1: of his followers forming small two, three, four man groups

1261
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,040
Speaker 1: and training with weapons together and preparing for the future,

1262
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,600
Speaker 1: you know, day of the rope style thing. He doesn't

1263
01:07:22,640 --> 01:07:25,320
Speaker 1: use that term, but he's he's speaking to those people

1264
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 1: from like a more educated mindset. And there's I think

1265
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:31,160
Speaker 1: an extent to which you could see his writing as

1266
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 1: trying to pull in that kind of educated upper crust

1267
01:07:35,120 --> 01:07:38,880
Speaker 1: kids of the upper middle class, you know, with ivy

1268
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 1: league educations who go into politics trying to draw them

1269
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: in closer to the actual violent insurgent, right, at least

1270
01:07:46,080 --> 01:07:49,040
Speaker 1: in terms of the sympathies of their ideas and support

1271
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 1: for methods of organizing that are more traditionally found against

1272
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, the Elohim city set, right. I think there

1273
01:07:57,400 --> 01:08:00,880
Speaker 1: is a degree of that going on here now. Bronze

1274
01:08:00,920 --> 01:08:03,960
Speaker 1: Age Pervert is more supportive of Trump than a lot

1275
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 1: of these guys, largely because he finds him funny and

1276
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: sees him as an avatar of disruption and destruction.

1277
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1278
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 8: I think it's it's like an accelerationist support.

1279
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly exactly, which is actually honestly that Dore's that's

1280
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:21,240
Speaker 1: perfectly logical because Trump is accelerating both the death of

1281
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:26,600
Speaker 1: the kind of conservatism that is state loyal that is

1282
01:08:26,640 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 1: sort of system loyal, right, the George W. Bush kind

1283
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 1: of conservatism, which is a.

1284
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,759
Speaker 9: Conservative system that's like the two thousands.

1285
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1286
01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:37,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, and Trump is has done damage, terrible damage to

1287
01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 1: that and damage to the structure of the state in

1288
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:42,560
Speaker 1: the hole. So it doesn't it's to perfectly logical for

1289
01:08:42,640 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 1: him to support Trump. He's not like, this is not

1290
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:48,080
Speaker 1: inconsistent with the other things that he talks about. One

1291
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,720
Speaker 1: of the people that that Atlantic writer talked to is

1292
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: Michael Anton, a former Trump administration national security official who

1293
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: wrote a twenty nineteen essay and the Claremont Review of

1294
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 1: books about Bronze Age Pervert. He acknowledges that Bapp's work

1295
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 1: is racist, anti Semitic, anti democratic, misogynistic, and homophobic, but

1296
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:10,599
Speaker 1: suspect suggested that, like, you know that that's all, that's

1297
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: not you know, that's not necessarily.

1298
01:09:12,520 --> 01:09:13,799
Speaker 2: What he really believes.

1299
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 1: Maybe it is, but the big reason why he does

1300
01:09:16,200 --> 01:09:19,320
Speaker 1: this is it key. It distracts leftists from his like

1301
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 1: his more serious, like secret heresies that are like the

1302
01:09:22,920 --> 01:09:26,360
Speaker 1: real deep, dark arcane wisdom at the center of it,

1303
01:09:26,479 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: like hang out with your bros and trading with guns

1304
01:09:30,280 --> 01:09:35,520
Speaker 1: or whatever. Or yeah, like heiden the fucking government and

1305
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:38,360
Speaker 1: waiting for the right moment to strike, but then blow

1306
01:09:38,400 --> 01:09:40,639
Speaker 1: it all up when you make an ad for Ronda Santis,

1307
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,040
Speaker 1: that kind of cleverness.

1308
01:09:44,080 --> 01:09:44,479
Speaker 2: Anyway.

1309
01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:48,600
Speaker 1: Anton writes that Bronze Age pervert quote speaks directly to

1310
01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:52,160
Speaker 1: a youthful dissatisfaction, especially among white males, with equality is

1311
01:09:52,200 --> 01:09:56,559
Speaker 1: propagandized and imposed in our day, a hectoring, vindictive, resentful, leveling,

1312
01:09:56,600 --> 01:10:00,799
Speaker 1: hypocritical equality that punishes excellence and publicly deny all differences,

1313
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: while at the same time elevating and enriching a decadent, incompetent,

1314
01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 1: and corrupt elite.

1315
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 2: There you go.

1316
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 1: So what does all this have to do with long houses? Well,

1317
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,800
Speaker 1: let's finally get to that. Longhouse describes a category of

1318
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: dwellings that have existed on basically every land mass and

1319
01:10:18,040 --> 01:10:21,200
Speaker 1: the planet in some form, stretching back to the Neolithic period.

1320
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:25,400
Speaker 1: These are, in general, large halls, sometimes with private family

1321
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:28,800
Speaker 1: rooms built into them, sometimes with communal sleeping arrangements, but

1322
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:33,240
Speaker 1: always organized around a large, single communal hall. In ancient days,

1323
01:10:33,280 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 1: these are where feasts would be held and where groups

1324
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 1: of families or tribes would huddle together in long cold winters.

1325
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: Bronze Age Pervert conceives of the long house as an

1326
01:10:41,840 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 1: example of the miserable lives primitive and shameful cultures not

1327
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 1: his beloved Greeks, lived in before modernity. In his writing,

1328
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,400
Speaker 1: he makes it clear that his fear is rule by

1329
01:10:51,439 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: degenerates and our fallen modernity will cause society to regress

1330
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 1: to this prehistoric misery. Now part of his hatred of

1331
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 1: what he calls long house culture is that, in his mind,

1332
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 1: these dwellings were dominated by women who forced men to

1333
01:11:04,840 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: live inside the smoky, cloying, stinking confines. This is not

1334
01:11:09,320 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 1: really accurate to any kind of history. I expect his

1335
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:14,799
Speaker 1: conception here comes largely from the fact that long houses

1336
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:18,120
Speaker 1: are often suspected because we know relatively little about many

1337
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:20,720
Speaker 1: of the cultures that had them, are often suspected of

1338
01:11:20,760 --> 01:11:24,479
Speaker 1: having been organized among matrilineal lines. In other words, if you,

1339
01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:26,800
Speaker 1: as a dude, merry a lady, you move into her

1340
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,559
Speaker 1: family's long house. Right, this does sink out. There are

1341
01:11:29,640 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 1: modern cultures that that had long houses or have long

1342
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,360
Speaker 1: houses who also live this way, the Iroquois being a

1343
01:11:35,360 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 1: good example. Right, there was a long house culture and

1344
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:42,680
Speaker 1: where which house lived in was matrilineal. But it is

1345
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:46,120
Speaker 1: a mistake to characterize matrilineal as meaning like the women

1346
01:11:46,160 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 1: are completely in charge, because they were not an Iroquois culture,

1347
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 1: nor many other cultures where longhouses existed. Vikings lived in longhouses,

1348
01:11:55,280 --> 01:12:01,360
Speaker 1: and you might recognize their society as not precisely anti masculine. Yeah,

1349
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: the work vikings, Yeah, the woke vikings. So this is

1350
01:12:05,320 --> 01:12:07,840
Speaker 1: more of a problem though with the conceptions of the

1351
01:12:07,880 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 1: Longhouse that are spread by Bab's followers, because again, he's

1352
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 1: using it as a shorthand for the fact that this

1353
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:18,240
Speaker 1: kind of like prehistoric darkness of egalitarianism is going to

1354
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:21,959
Speaker 1: destroy the only thing that, in his view, can bring progress,

1355
01:12:21,960 --> 01:12:26,719
Speaker 1: which is small groups of beautiful men enforcing their will

1356
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:29,680
Speaker 1: through violence. Right, that's what he talks about when he's

1357
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:33,000
Speaker 1: talking about the Long House. His followers tend to use

1358
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:35,160
Speaker 1: the long House as a short end, more of a

1359
01:12:35,160 --> 01:12:37,679
Speaker 1: shorthand for the kind of stuff Curtis Yarvin gets at

1360
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:41,080
Speaker 1: with the cathedral, a catch all term for progressive modernity,

1361
01:12:41,360 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 1: women who get to say no to sex and have

1362
01:12:43,120 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 1: their own credit cards, trans people on hormones, vegan meat, substitutes,

1363
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:51,200
Speaker 1: and yes, the Barbie movie Now. I open this episode

1364
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:55,240
Speaker 1: with a post about that movie by Lomez, an adherent

1365
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 1: of Baptism who wrote an interminable article on the Long

1366
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:01,920
Speaker 1: House for a website called First Things, which describes itself

1367
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:05,679
Speaker 1: as America's most influential journal of religion and public life.

1368
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 4: I love it.

1369
01:13:07,600 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet it is, buddy, And you can tell

1370
01:13:09,439 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 2: because they always let you know straightaway.

1371
01:13:11,160 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. Yeah, yeah, they really got to hit

1372
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,080
Speaker 1: that up for you. I'm going to quote from that now.

1373
01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:18,799
Speaker 1: Even for those of us who use it, the longhouse

1374
01:13:18,800 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 1: evades easy summary. Ambivalent to its core, the term is

1375
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,479
Speaker 1: at once politically earnest and the punchline to an elaborate

1376
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:27,880
Speaker 1: in joke. Its definition must remain elastic lest it lose

1377
01:13:27,920 --> 01:13:31,040
Speaker 1: its power to lampoon the vast constellation of social forces

1378
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 1: it reviles. It refers at once to our increasingly degraded

1379
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: mode of technocratic government, but also to wokeness, to the progressive, liberal,

1380
01:13:38,360 --> 01:13:41,920
Speaker 1: and secular values that pervade all major institutions. The most

1381
01:13:41,960 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: important feature of the long house, and why it makes

1382
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:47,520
Speaker 1: such a resonant and controversial symbol of our current circumstances,

1383
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:50,920
Speaker 1: is the ubiquitous rule of the den mother. More than anything,

1384
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,880
Speaker 1: the long House refers to the remarkable over correction of

1385
01:13:53,920 --> 01:13:57,960
Speaker 1: the last two generations towards social norms centering feminine needs

1386
01:13:58,000 --> 01:14:01,720
Speaker 1: and feminine methods for controlling direct and modeling behavior. As

1387
01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,519
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty two, women held fifty two percent of

1388
01:14:04,560 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 1: professional managerial roles in the US. Women earn more than

1389
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:11,640
Speaker 1: fifty seven percent of bachelor degrees, sixty one percent of

1390
01:14:11,760 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 1: master's degrees and fifty four percent of doctoral degrees. And

1391
01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:18,919
Speaker 1: because they're overrepresented in professions such as human resource management

1392
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:23,320
Speaker 1: and compliance officers that determined workplace behavioral norms, they have

1393
01:14:23,320 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: an outsized influence and professional culture, which itself has an

1394
01:14:26,000 --> 01:14:30,920
Speaker 1: outsized influence on American culture more generally so the wall

1395
01:14:31,439 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 1: taken over human resources.

1396
01:14:34,760 --> 01:14:36,960
Speaker 2: He sounds like he loves to fight with his fosaurus

1397
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 2: when he's writing that, Like, yeah, at every point, like

1398
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 2: he's just using unnecessarily long word. Yeah, it's it's I mean,

1399
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: it's also just like women have are dominating society because

1400
01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:53,080
Speaker 2: they they're getting more bachelor's degrees. Yep, that's what it is.

1401
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:57,719
Speaker 2: Huh okay, uh huh. Yeah, that's a famously useful bachelor's degree,

1402
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 2: which always leads to employment and power to tremendous wealth.

1403
01:15:01,920 --> 01:15:02,040
Speaker 8: Oh.

1404
01:15:02,080 --> 01:15:05,240
Speaker 1: Also, and the idea that like human resources are in

1405
01:15:05,280 --> 01:15:09,360
Speaker 1: some degree to somehow setting the terms culturally as opposed

1406
01:15:09,400 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 1: to responding to the needs of corporations to mitigate risk. Right,

1407
01:15:15,400 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: Like right, that's what HR actually is. It's not setting

1408
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:25,599
Speaker 1: an agenda, it is avoiding lawsuits, it is minimizing exposure whatever.

1409
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 1: H Lomez also goes on to quote Richard Hannania, an

1410
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 1: influential conservative thought leader who is revealed recently to be

1411
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:35,799
Speaker 1: a neo Nazi, or at least someone who regularly wrote

1412
01:15:35,840 --> 01:15:38,519
Speaker 1: neo Nazi things in neo Nazi parts of the web

1413
01:15:38,680 --> 01:15:41,439
Speaker 1: and wants to be seen as respectable. Now, well, we'll

1414
01:15:41,439 --> 01:15:45,479
Speaker 1: talk about him later. Lomez approvingly notes that Hannania echoes

1415
01:15:45,520 --> 01:15:48,839
Speaker 1: a bapist talking point when he discusses how female domination

1416
01:15:48,920 --> 01:15:52,840
Speaker 1: of HR has given them control over public and private institutions.

1417
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:57,280
Speaker 1: Now again, the way Lomez is talking about this shit

1418
01:15:57,439 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: is not actually in line with how bronze a pervert

1419
01:16:00,600 --> 01:16:03,839
Speaker 1: conceives of the longhouse. And one of the funnier results

1420
01:16:03,880 --> 01:16:06,240
Speaker 1: of everything that I've been talking about today is that

1421
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:08,840
Speaker 1: bronze age pervert now spends much of his time on

1422
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:12,280
Speaker 1: Twitter angrily tweeting at his followers that they're using the

1423
01:16:12,320 --> 01:16:13,200
Speaker 1: long house wrong.

1424
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:15,479
Speaker 2: I'm gonna read you.

1425
01:16:15,400 --> 01:16:18,519
Speaker 1: What post it is from July twenty seventh, longhouse has

1426
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:19,920
Speaker 1: gone crazy out of control.

1427
01:16:20,040 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 2: Usually misused.

1428
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 1: It's not a synonym for feminism or matriarchy, nor for

1429
01:16:24,240 --> 01:16:27,000
Speaker 1: group consensus, though those are part of the story. It's

1430
01:16:27,040 --> 01:16:29,639
Speaker 1: a concrete image from pre airy in Europe. Of lower

1431
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:37,479
Speaker 1: life and of most traditional societies. Baby Got Away from You. Yeah,

1432
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,200
Speaker 1: and some of his ire is likely due to the

1433
01:16:40,240 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 1: fact that his followers, who are largely very young, tend

1434
01:16:44,000 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: to apply what they see as his analysis to children's movies.

1435
01:16:50,200 --> 01:16:54,400
Speaker 1: He's here's a real good one. Yeah, this is a

1436
01:16:54,760 --> 01:16:57,439
Speaker 1: it's a post for a picture of like the female

1437
01:16:57,560 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: villain from the movie Tangled by Activated Sleeper. If you

1438
01:17:02,400 --> 01:17:05,400
Speaker 1: want a good example of the nebulous long house, look

1439
01:17:05,479 --> 01:17:09,040
Speaker 1: no further than mother gothal Fane narcissism driven by resentment

1440
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,639
Speaker 1: and envy of the young, whose primary and most effective

1441
01:17:11,640 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 1: weapons are gaslighting, manipulation, and the rhetoric of fanatical safety ism.

1442
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:17,759
Speaker 2: It's good stuff.

1443
01:17:18,479 --> 01:17:20,680
Speaker 9: Thank you, Activated Sleeper.

1444
01:17:20,800 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 8: For you Activated Sleeper exposing that great cutting, cutting commentary

1445
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,520
Speaker 8: on the twenty twelves Tangled.

1446
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:33,719
Speaker 2: Now.

1447
01:17:34,320 --> 01:17:37,080
Speaker 1: One of my favorite recent examples of how many of

1448
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:39,559
Speaker 1: these guys use the long house was a post in

1449
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 1: the off my Chest reddit which went viral on Twitter.

1450
01:17:42,920 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 1: The post is by a woman who says that she

1451
01:17:45,000 --> 01:17:47,439
Speaker 1: interrupted her husband while he was telling a story and

1452
01:17:47,479 --> 01:17:49,760
Speaker 1: he was like, hold up, Tony Minner, talking as like

1453
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:52,080
Speaker 1: a joke, and she got angry at this, and they

1454
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:55,840
Speaker 1: had a fight. One popular bapist response to this story,

1455
01:17:55,920 --> 01:17:58,280
Speaker 1: fifteen hundred likes in counting when I found it, stated,

1456
01:17:58,640 --> 01:18:01,040
Speaker 1: men attempt to take one meeting step out of the

1457
01:18:01,080 --> 01:18:03,719
Speaker 1: long house, and the locks get ten times bigger.

1458
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:06,680
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. It is.

1459
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:10,519
Speaker 1: It is very silly to like bring up actual history

1460
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:12,160
Speaker 1: with this, but one of the points you'll find and

1461
01:18:12,240 --> 01:18:15,679
Speaker 1: like writing about long houses traditionally is that because everyone

1462
01:18:15,800 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 1: was cooped up in the winter comes spring, the women

1463
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,800
Speaker 1: were generally like doing everything they good to get the

1464
01:18:20,840 --> 01:18:23,160
Speaker 1: men to fucking leave and go hunter something. They get

1465
01:18:23,200 --> 01:18:25,680
Speaker 1: the fuck out of that thing, get out of here, Like,

1466
01:18:25,840 --> 01:18:29,040
Speaker 1: go do something else. We need something we need like

1467
01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:32,559
Speaker 1: a fucking week or two without you hanging around. Go

1468
01:18:32,600 --> 01:18:38,000
Speaker 1: to yeah, go to war, do something. Jesus Christ. Nobody

1469
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:42,080
Speaker 1: likes being cooped up in a fucking long house anyway.

1470
01:18:42,720 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 1: That's that's the long house. That's uh, bronze age pervert.

1471
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 1: It is kind of worth noting because these guys are

1472
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:53,760
Speaker 1: convinced that like they are the intellectual vanguard of this

1473
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:58,000
Speaker 1: movement that's going to overturn what is classically described as liberalism,

1474
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 1: this idea that like people have like rights that are

1475
01:19:01,040 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 1: worth protecting and shit that that's a failed idea. It's

1476
01:19:05,200 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 1: obviously failed. Look at how ugly buildings are today. Then

1477
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:11,519
Speaker 1: they'll post some picture of like the Chicago World's Fair.

1478
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:18,080
Speaker 1: These people are like weirdly adjacent to the the Tataria

1479
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 1: conspiracy theory that one hundred years ago the world was

1480
01:19:21,560 --> 01:19:24,479
Speaker 1: ruled by this like vast advanced Russian empire that made

1481
01:19:24,520 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 1: all the nice buildings, and then World War two was

1482
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:29,439
Speaker 1: a secret excuse for the rulers of the world to

1483
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 1: destroy all the good architecture and that's why buildings are ugly.

1484
01:19:33,680 --> 01:19:38,640
Speaker 8: I definitely seen like this bad guy in those in

1485
01:19:38,680 --> 01:19:41,759
Speaker 8: those like circles of people who are like like culture

1486
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:46,639
Speaker 8: critic or like Greek Greek enjoyer or whatever. Like yeah,

1487
01:19:46,800 --> 01:19:50,439
Speaker 8: those pictures of like like old expensive architecture stuff and

1488
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:54,240
Speaker 8: mixed in with like like either like uh mostly mostly

1489
01:19:54,280 --> 01:19:57,880
Speaker 8: like brutalist like modern architecture and be like what happened.

1490
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:04,800
Speaker 1: Which way, Well, for one thing, like the society that

1491
01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:07,680
Speaker 1: people like you insisted upon this one in which like

1492
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:11,240
Speaker 1: value is maximized at all costs. So we we took

1493
01:20:11,320 --> 01:20:13,800
Speaker 1: windows out of my school that was built in that

1494
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:15,720
Speaker 1: brutalist periods because.

1495
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:16,160
Speaker 2: It kept.

1496
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:22,360
Speaker 8: Because like it's like because some like Prince bankrupted their

1497
01:20:22,400 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 8: country building this pretty building, and that's why we don't

1498
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:26,879
Speaker 8: do that anymore.

1499
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:30,679
Speaker 1: Idiot like you thought, like, yeah, jacked dudes with guns

1500
01:20:30,680 --> 01:20:33,880
Speaker 1: should run everything started a series of wars that bankrupted

1501
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 1: those countries and they had to sell their nice buildings

1502
01:20:37,080 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 1: to the Americans.

1503
01:20:38,920 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 2: Why we got the London Bridge, I assume.

1504
01:20:41,720 --> 01:20:43,960
Speaker 8: But it's it's definitely all that all in like in

1505
01:20:44,000 --> 01:20:48,920
Speaker 8: that in that same rough rough Twitter mill you. I mean,

1506
01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:51,599
Speaker 8: it's certainly now that you've explained all of this at

1507
01:20:51,640 --> 01:20:54,880
Speaker 8: Longhouse stuff, it certainly makes sense why they're kind of

1508
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 8: fawning over the Barbie movie.

1509
01:20:56,560 --> 01:20:58,240
Speaker 9: And I mean very.

1510
01:20:58,080 --> 01:20:59,960
Speaker 8: Clearly Ken is going to become one of these like

1511
01:21:00,080 --> 01:21:03,320
Speaker 8: memable characters because of what he does in the film.

1512
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:06,519
Speaker 8: It's he's he's going to join the pantheon of like

1513
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:09,040
Speaker 8: American Psycho and uh.

1514
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:10,799
Speaker 9: All of Ryan Gosling's other roles.

1515
01:21:12,720 --> 01:21:15,280
Speaker 8: It's it is fascinating how Ry Goslin kind of has

1516
01:21:15,320 --> 01:21:18,800
Speaker 8: become like the literal poster child for much of like

1517
01:21:18,880 --> 01:21:22,760
Speaker 8: the dissident like anti feminist rite just because of the

1518
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:24,120
Speaker 8: types of roles that he's taken.

1519
01:21:25,160 --> 01:21:26,599
Speaker 9: But yeah, I mean, it's it's.

1520
01:21:26,479 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 1: Really cautionary tale male actors.

1521
01:21:29,560 --> 01:21:32,080
Speaker 8: It certainly makes sense in context of the Barbie movie

1522
01:21:32,120 --> 01:21:34,479
Speaker 8: in terms of how they kind of structured all of

1523
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:39,440
Speaker 8: the like social critique in that in that movie. But

1524
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 8: but yeah, this is very silly. I mean, uh, it's

1525
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:45,639
Speaker 8: I'm excited I won't have to hear much more about

1526
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:51,639
Speaker 8: like the uh, the stunning poetic prose of Bronze Age.

1527
01:21:51,760 --> 01:21:52,240
Speaker 4: Perfect.

1528
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, fucking the Atlantic every time. Never.

1529
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,439
Speaker 1: It's it's so like weird because there's there's this whole

1530
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:01,880
Speaker 1: thing that open in the article where he's talking about

1531
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:05,479
Speaker 1: how like, you know, the the first strains of this

1532
01:22:05,600 --> 01:22:10,400
Speaker 1: new anti democratic, you know, anti liberal thinking in academia

1533
01:22:10,439 --> 01:22:13,400
Speaker 1: came out through philosophy students who you know, realized that

1534
01:22:13,400 --> 01:22:16,280
Speaker 1: their professors just took for granted, you know, the the

1535
01:22:16,680 --> 01:22:19,200
Speaker 1: truth about things like the value of human rights and

1536
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:21,920
Speaker 1: didn't weren't ready for their arguments against them. And it

1537
01:22:21,960 --> 01:22:23,720
Speaker 1: was these like these people who didn't want to be

1538
01:22:23,800 --> 01:22:26,559
Speaker 1: told not to think in certain ways. No, man, they

1539
01:22:26,600 --> 01:22:30,680
Speaker 1: were assholes. They're asshole rich kids who needed somebody to

1540
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:34,920
Speaker 1: hit him in the fucking face. They need they need

1541
01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:38,439
Speaker 1: a folding chair deployed on them, Like yeah, yeah, we

1542
01:22:38,880 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 1: got to see.

1543
01:22:39,840 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 8: I demand a shutdown of all coastal universities until we

1544
01:22:43,000 --> 01:22:44,599
Speaker 8: figured out what the fuck is going on.

1545
01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I'm sorry if you were pretending that you are,

1546
01:22:47,920 --> 01:22:52,000
Speaker 1: like somehow in the insurgent underground, uh as the son

1547
01:22:52,080 --> 01:22:54,439
Speaker 1: of an M I T professor, going Tom I T

1548
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:57,640
Speaker 1: yourself like you fucking diletant.

1549
01:22:57,800 --> 01:22:58,160
Speaker 2: That's all.

1550
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 1: That's all this fucker is is a dilat hunt. And

1551
01:23:00,479 --> 01:23:02,479
Speaker 1: that's all most of the people following here. It's a

1552
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 1: mix of dilettants and guys who are going to shoot

1553
01:23:05,160 --> 01:23:10,439
Speaker 1: up walmarts anyway, right, cool.

1554
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:15,040
Speaker 8: Give them, give him a follow, give him a follow, Yeah,

1555
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 8: checking out activated sleeper and I've learned a lot already.

1556
01:23:19,080 --> 01:23:23,120
Speaker 2: So oh yeah, yeah, you're getting killed by him? Yeah yeah, yeah,

1557
01:23:23,200 --> 01:23:26,000
Speaker 2: pretty much. I you know, as much as one can

1558
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:28,519
Speaker 2: be ill by a fourteen year old. But yeah, really

1559
01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:33,080
Speaker 2: interesting stuff here. I think fair to say that this

1560
01:23:33,160 --> 01:23:35,920
Speaker 2: is an insight into a world. Oh buddy, fuck me,

1561
01:23:36,000 --> 01:23:38,600
Speaker 2: all right, yeah wait, we're not talking about that. We

1562
01:23:38,640 --> 01:23:40,879
Speaker 2: are not talking about his bedroom wall by everyone.

1563
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:43,240
Speaker 1: Oh oh wait, now I got a lotch James, what

1564
01:23:43,320 --> 01:23:45,040
Speaker 1: did we can bleep it?

1565
01:23:45,160 --> 01:23:46,640
Speaker 9: You have to at least tell us what you.

1566
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:50,840
Speaker 2: Oh wow, his his pinned. It's fucking good. I'm not

1567
01:23:50,840 --> 01:23:54,320
Speaker 2: sure to get betteran playing Yeah no, what's on the veterans?

1568
01:23:54,760 --> 01:23:58,479
Speaker 2: And what looks like is that a German national? Like

1569
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:04,600
Speaker 2: a German in there? Is that Imperial Germany? Yeah? I

1570
01:24:04,600 --> 01:24:06,200
Speaker 2: think this guy is a kaiser Reich.

1571
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:06,639
Speaker 1: Dude.

1572
01:24:09,840 --> 01:24:14,000
Speaker 9: Impressive, I'm sure, I'm sure all the ladies in there.

1573
01:24:14,040 --> 01:24:17,080
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta show you guys this pinned tweet

1574
01:24:18,160 --> 01:24:21,599
Speaker 1: and then I'll read it. It's all caps fed. Let

1575
01:24:21,640 --> 01:24:23,719
Speaker 1: me tell you how much I want a FED post.

1576
01:24:23,960 --> 01:24:26,519
Speaker 1: There are a hundred billion neurons within my brain. If

1577
01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 1: a FED post was written on each and every one

1578
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:30,920
Speaker 1: those neurons, it would not equal one billionth of the

1579
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:33,400
Speaker 1: compulsion I feel feel the FED post at this micro

1580
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:37,519
Speaker 1: instant fed post, FED post that means posting about doing

1581
01:24:37,560 --> 01:24:38,639
Speaker 1: a terrorism So that.

1582
01:24:40,360 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 8: This is the type of tweet that could either come

1583
01:24:42,960 --> 01:24:47,680
Speaker 8: from the sun like like mentally unwell leftist.

1584
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. The flag he has, just to be clear,

1585
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:56,560
Speaker 2: it's a franco Is flag of Spain, which, okay, is

1586
01:24:56,600 --> 01:24:59,040
Speaker 2: something that something that we will have to talk about,

1587
01:24:59,120 --> 01:25:03,080
Speaker 2: which is the American right has been embracing franco As

1588
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:07,120
Speaker 2: like based and good uh for a while now like

1589
01:25:07,200 --> 01:25:10,479
Speaker 2: it's just kind of returned to Catholic tradition and like

1590
01:25:11,000 --> 01:25:12,840
Speaker 2: it's just anti woke crusader.

1591
01:25:13,840 --> 01:25:15,960
Speaker 8: I do like call of the suggestion follows here on

1592
01:25:16,040 --> 01:25:19,280
Speaker 8: activity Sleepers page, son Optimist.

1593
01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:23,600
Speaker 2: Aleric, the Barbarian Emperor Philippus.

1594
01:25:25,960 --> 01:25:28,080
Speaker 7: These people are such birds.

1595
01:25:28,600 --> 01:25:32,720
Speaker 1: Here's he's reached a post from Bronze Age Jacob Eurowski

1596
01:25:33,120 --> 01:25:35,480
Speaker 1: Jews are like the one ring for politics.

1597
01:25:37,600 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 9: I think I think, I think I think we reached

1598
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:45,120
Speaker 9: the I think we reached peak peakfulness. I don't think.

1599
01:25:45,320 --> 01:25:48,320
Speaker 2: Yes. I hope you've all learned a lot from this.

1600
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:52,320
Speaker 2: Have a wonderful week, every wonderful week, and funk you

1601
01:25:52,479 --> 01:25:55,639
Speaker 2: for making me write this to our listeners.

1602
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 6: Welcome to Dick It Appon Here, a podcast where if

1603
01:26:13,280 --> 01:26:15,280
Speaker 6: you're listening to this episode is the middle of the week,

1604
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 6: you probably know you know what this podcast is, you

1605
01:26:18,280 --> 01:26:22,639
Speaker 6: know what it's about. I'm your host, Mia Wong. Now,

1606
01:26:23,040 --> 01:26:25,240
Speaker 6: if you've been reading the news about China at all

1607
01:26:25,280 --> 01:26:27,800
Speaker 6: in the past few years, you've probably at least heard

1608
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:32,200
Speaker 6: of China's Belton Road initiative, probably followed by a stream

1609
01:26:32,240 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 6: of almost panicked fear mongering about China displacing America's role

1610
01:26:35,880 --> 01:26:38,679
Speaker 6: in the world and luring countries, and the debt traps

1611
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:41,080
Speaker 6: that allow the CCP to seize control of the country's

1612
01:26:41,120 --> 01:26:45,600
Speaker 6: assets and then its entire foreign policy, and all of

1613
01:26:45,680 --> 01:26:50,880
Speaker 6: this begs the question what actually is Belton Road. This

1614
01:26:51,560 --> 01:26:56,000
Speaker 6: is not a simple question because Belton Road isn't really

1615
01:26:56,120 --> 01:27:01,160
Speaker 6: a coherent, single project at all. It is effectively a

1616
01:27:01,280 --> 01:27:05,160
Speaker 6: marketing term slapped onto an enormous array of loans, investments,

1617
01:27:05,760 --> 01:27:09,679
Speaker 6: some things that are effectively grants, infrastructure projects, and special

1618
01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:13,480
Speaker 6: economic zones across the world. The money for these projects

1619
01:27:13,640 --> 01:27:16,280
Speaker 6: comes from a variety of Chinese banks and sometimes just

1620
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:20,479
Speaker 6: like government agencies like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, and

1621
01:27:20,640 --> 01:27:24,280
Speaker 6: involve a vast array of different Chinese companies and contractors.

1622
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:28,559
Speaker 6: So what are these banks and companies and governments actually

1623
01:27:28,680 --> 01:27:34,040
Speaker 6: up to. I'm going to run through three examples to

1624
01:27:34,240 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 6: get a sense of the kind of program that composes

1625
01:27:38,040 --> 01:27:44,479
Speaker 6: Belton Road. One very common program is extending lines of

1626
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:48,519
Speaker 6: credit to state oil companies of oil producers in order

1627
01:27:48,600 --> 01:27:52,040
Speaker 6: to secure china supply of oil. I'm starting here because

1628
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:54,840
Speaker 6: this is not typically what people think of when someone

1629
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:58,719
Speaker 6: brings up Belton Road, and it gets at a couple

1630
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:04,080
Speaker 6: of the central complexities of Belton Road. One is, you know,

1631
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:07,960
Speaker 6: a lot of this stuff is just, in some sense

1632
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:13,160
Speaker 6: almost ban all attempts to just sort of secured natural

1633
01:28:13,400 --> 01:28:18,840
Speaker 6: resources by paying money for them and investing money in them,

1634
01:28:19,000 --> 01:28:23,719
Speaker 6: which is you know, very very standard sort of capitalist behavior.

1635
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:27,640
Speaker 6: But another complexity of this aspect of Belton Road is

1636
01:28:27,720 --> 01:28:32,120
Speaker 6: that these loans to oil producers were happening well before

1637
01:28:32,200 --> 01:28:35,800
Speaker 6: Belton Road ever existed. The credit lines were simply absorbed

1638
01:28:35,880 --> 01:28:38,639
Speaker 6: into Belton Road when the project was announced in twenty thirteen,

1639
01:28:38,760 --> 01:28:41,880
Speaker 6: and now these loans are considered Belton Road projects. This

1640
01:28:42,080 --> 01:28:44,720
Speaker 6: is a very common thread in Belton Road. Much of

1641
01:28:44,800 --> 01:28:47,680
Speaker 6: the vaunted one trillion dollars of investment in Belton Road

1642
01:28:47,720 --> 01:28:51,960
Speaker 6: projects comes from, you know, the extension of pre existing projects,

1643
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 6: which really sort of puts into perspective all of those

1644
01:28:54,280 --> 01:28:58,000
Speaker 6: like very very scary like maps that you'll see where

1645
01:28:58,000 --> 01:29:00,679
Speaker 6: they're like one hundred blah blah blah countries have accepted

1646
01:29:01,479 --> 01:29:05,320
Speaker 6: Belton Road projects. It's like, well, yeah, okay, like how

1647
01:29:05,400 --> 01:29:07,519
Speaker 6: much of that's new and how much of that is

1648
01:29:08,320 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 6: just people who had like some random agreement with China.

1649
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:12,960
Speaker 4: Beforehand.

1650
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:17,640
Speaker 6: Now, lest you think the fact that China is giving like,

1651
01:29:18,280 --> 01:29:20,800
Speaker 6: you know, a bunch of money to like Brazil State

1652
01:29:20,840 --> 01:29:24,280
Speaker 6: Oil Company, means that like this, the whole Belton Road

1653
01:29:24,320 --> 01:29:27,519
Speaker 6: thing has something to do with socialism. Here's a quote

1654
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:31,960
Speaker 6: from China's thirteenth five Year Plan quote, we will speed

1655
01:29:32,080 --> 01:29:36,719
Speaker 6: up efforts to implement the free Trade Area strategy, gradually

1656
01:29:36,920 --> 01:29:41,040
Speaker 6: establishing a network of high standard free trade areas. We

1657
01:29:41,080 --> 01:29:44,839
Speaker 6: will actively engage in negotiations with other countries and regions

1658
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:49,200
Speaker 6: along the route of Belton of the along the routes

1659
01:29:49,360 --> 01:29:52,040
Speaker 6: of the Belton Road Initiative on the building of free

1660
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:56,439
Speaker 6: trade areas. Now, this is the ancient neoliberal dream.

1661
01:29:56,560 --> 01:29:56,760
Speaker 4: It is.

1662
01:29:56,920 --> 01:29:59,040
Speaker 6: It is a dream of a world where corporations can

1663
01:29:59,080 --> 01:30:03,200
Speaker 6: freely move their comb use across borders while maintaining, you know,

1664
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:08,679
Speaker 6: zones of just unlimited exploitation of workers and special economic zones. Now,

1665
01:30:09,360 --> 01:30:13,760
Speaker 6: speaking of sort of the condition of workers, let us

1666
01:30:13,840 --> 01:30:18,200
Speaker 6: move to a more typical belt and road project, Jamaica's

1667
01:30:18,320 --> 01:30:23,080
Speaker 6: North South Highway. In twenty fourteen, at the astounding cost

1668
01:30:23,200 --> 01:30:27,720
Speaker 6: of seven hundred million dollars, the Jamaican government opened the

1669
01:30:27,840 --> 01:30:32,120
Speaker 6: North South Highway. Here's from an article that was republished

1670
01:30:32,120 --> 01:30:36,840
Speaker 6: in laoson quote. Since Jamaica needed a Chinese loan to

1671
01:30:36,960 --> 01:30:41,160
Speaker 6: finance the highway, Chinese Harbor Engineering Company was granted the

1672
01:30:41,280 --> 01:30:44,719
Speaker 6: right to own and operate the highway for fifty years

1673
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:48,800
Speaker 6: as part of the arrangement. Also, the tolls collected on

1674
01:30:48,840 --> 01:30:51,559
Speaker 6: the highway cannot be used for debt servicing and rather

1675
01:30:52,320 --> 01:30:58,080
Speaker 6: go to the China Harbor Engineering Company directly as profit. Additionally,

1676
01:30:58,320 --> 01:31:01,800
Speaker 6: the tolls are astronomical by local standards. To drive the

1677
01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:04,000
Speaker 6: length of the highway, and a standard car costs the

1678
01:31:04,080 --> 01:31:09,040
Speaker 6: equivalents of over twelve dollars each way. This is well

1679
01:31:09,120 --> 01:31:11,760
Speaker 6: out of reach for the vast majority of Jamaican's where

1680
01:31:11,760 --> 01:31:15,479
Speaker 6: the average monthly salary is about six hundred dollars and

1681
01:31:15,600 --> 01:31:18,160
Speaker 6: only sixty percent of workers have a waged or salaried

1682
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:22,400
Speaker 6: position at all. Many of my respondents wondered for whom

1683
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 6: was this highway. The answer may lie in the additional

1684
01:31:26,120 --> 01:31:31,960
Speaker 6: concessions granted to the China Harbor Engineering Company, primarily twelve

1685
01:31:32,080 --> 01:31:34,479
Speaker 6: hundred acres of land across the highway to be held

1686
01:31:34,520 --> 01:31:38,479
Speaker 6: in perpetuity. Apparently, this will be used to construct hotels

1687
01:31:38,520 --> 01:31:42,479
Speaker 6: and adjoining infrastructure by Chinese companies for Chinese tourists, a

1688
01:31:42,680 --> 01:31:46,080
Speaker 6: kind of economic enclay from which locals would not benefit directly,

1689
01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:50,040
Speaker 6: as acknowledged by the then Jamaican Minister of Transport. Now,

1690
01:31:50,520 --> 01:31:54,360
Speaker 6: this sucks for Jamaican workers who you know, didn't get

1691
01:31:54,360 --> 01:31:56,200
Speaker 6: any of the money from the contract, which you know

1692
01:31:56,400 --> 01:31:58,000
Speaker 6: went through Chinese firms.

1693
01:31:59,200 --> 01:32:00,599
Speaker 2: That input and these workers.

1694
01:32:01,280 --> 01:32:02,720
Speaker 9: And it's also not.

1695
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:06,840
Speaker 4: A great deal for.

1696
01:32:08,439 --> 01:32:12,240
Speaker 6: Like the Jamaican government, which is enormous about of debt

1697
01:32:13,400 --> 01:32:19,000
Speaker 6: and gets seemingly very little for this. And this begs

1698
01:32:19,040 --> 01:32:23,760
Speaker 6: the question why do countries agree to this? Now, the

1699
01:32:23,880 --> 01:32:27,840
Speaker 6: short answer is that they need money for development projects,

1700
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:31,080
Speaker 6: and you know, for a poor country, that money is

1701
01:32:31,320 --> 01:32:35,280
Speaker 6: very hard to come by. Part of the popularity of

1702
01:32:35,360 --> 01:32:39,640
Speaker 6: the project is that economies who've been through the you know,

1703
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:44,679
Speaker 6: the just devastating process of IMF structure reforms, who've had

1704
01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 6: literally their entire economy and social system torn apart, who

1705
01:32:48,880 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 6: have literally watched food being taken from the mouths of

1706
01:32:52,040 --> 01:32:55,200
Speaker 6: their children in order to pay off IMF loans, are

1707
01:32:55,280 --> 01:33:00,120
Speaker 6: looking for literally any alternative. And as we've discussed on

1708
01:33:00,200 --> 01:33:03,960
Speaker 6: this show before, Jamaica itself was the first country to

1709
01:33:04,200 --> 01:33:07,000
Speaker 6: be looted by the IMF as the Social Democratic government

1710
01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:08,680
Speaker 6: was forced to shred as well for a state in

1711
01:33:08,760 --> 01:33:11,960
Speaker 6: its economy in the seventies as a condition for getting

1712
01:33:12,000 --> 01:33:16,519
Speaker 6: IMF loans. This history and the current day threat more

1713
01:33:17,120 --> 01:33:19,560
Speaker 6: of these structural adjustments should you attempt to go to

1714
01:33:19,640 --> 01:33:23,200
Speaker 6: the IMF for more loans, make it more likely that

1715
01:33:23,280 --> 01:33:26,120
Speaker 6: countries will turn to Belton Road rather than the IMF

1716
01:33:26,640 --> 01:33:29,160
Speaker 6: to deal with their complete lack of development and to

1717
01:33:29,320 --> 01:33:31,920
Speaker 6: stave off economic crises resulting from the fact that their

1718
01:33:31,960 --> 01:33:35,160
Speaker 6: government has completely run out of money. And this is

1719
01:33:35,200 --> 01:33:39,000
Speaker 6: something even liberal imperialist institutions will admit. Here's from the

1720
01:33:39,040 --> 01:33:43,400
Speaker 6: Council on Foreign Relations Belton Road Task Force report quote.

1721
01:33:44,240 --> 01:33:47,879
Speaker 6: In contrast to loans from traditional providers of development finance,

1722
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 6: China's loans are generally not concessional, and the Chinese Development

1723
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:55,280
Speaker 6: Bank and the Export Import Bank of China expect to

1724
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 6: make a return on their investments. The loans also lack

1725
01:33:59,680 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 6: Paul conditionality, They contain fewer no exceptions of host country

1726
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:09,320
Speaker 6: economic policy or political reforms. Now, the Council on Foreign

1727
01:34:09,400 --> 01:34:14,519
Speaker 6: Relations concludes this with a very slick line that goes

1728
01:34:14,680 --> 01:34:20,719
Speaker 6: quote for many Belton Road initiative countries, especially authoritarian regimes.

1729
01:34:21,640 --> 01:34:25,160
Speaker 6: This is an attractive package, especially compared with other lenders

1730
01:34:25,200 --> 01:34:30,080
Speaker 6: who insist on reforms tied to loans. Now, okay, when

1731
01:34:30,080 --> 01:34:33,200
Speaker 6: do you hear the words, you know, when do you

1732
01:34:33,360 --> 01:34:37,160
Speaker 6: hear that authoritarian regimes don't want to do the quote

1733
01:34:37,320 --> 01:34:40,280
Speaker 6: reforms tied to loans. That makes it sounds like the

1734
01:34:40,400 --> 01:34:44,639
Speaker 6: quote unquote reforms are like, you know, you dictators seed

1735
01:34:44,720 --> 01:34:47,640
Speaker 6: power to a democracy. Woke at IMF funding. That is

1736
01:34:48,080 --> 01:34:52,160
Speaker 6: not that is not how i am F loan conditions work.

1737
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:57,760
Speaker 6: What those reforms actually entail is much closer to sell

1738
01:34:57,880 --> 01:35:00,160
Speaker 6: every state out asset in the country to abund of

1739
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:02,439
Speaker 6: American investors. We will leave your children to.

1740
01:35:02,520 --> 01:35:04,880
Speaker 2: Die, now, you know.

1741
01:35:04,920 --> 01:35:07,240
Speaker 6: And this leads into some other stuff that the Council

1742
01:35:07,280 --> 01:35:10,439
Speaker 6: on Foreign Relations talks about a lot, which is, you know,

1743
01:35:10,800 --> 01:35:15,080
Speaker 6: they have entire giant sections about corruption on Belton Road programs,

1744
01:35:15,120 --> 01:35:18,639
Speaker 6: to which you know, the immediate response is like, man,

1745
01:35:19,000 --> 01:35:21,960
Speaker 6: do you know how much money the IMF gave Pinochet?

1746
01:35:22,400 --> 01:35:26,439
Speaker 6: They gave him over a billion dollars in nineteen eighties,

1747
01:35:26,520 --> 01:35:31,480
Speaker 6: money that he is like three billion dollars in today's money. Now, clariously,

1748
01:35:32,320 --> 01:35:35,320
Speaker 6: the other people who gave Pinochet a boatload of money

1749
01:35:36,400 --> 01:35:39,160
Speaker 6: was the Chinese Communist Party, although you know, orders of

1750
01:35:39,240 --> 01:35:43,400
Speaker 6: magnitude last, because this is this is like the seventies

1751
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:47,640
Speaker 6: Chinese Communist Party who do not have much money, but

1752
01:35:47,840 --> 01:35:49,800
Speaker 6: they had enough money apparently to give a bunch of

1753
01:35:49,920 --> 01:35:54,439
Speaker 6: the pinochet. And it's at this point that I want

1754
01:35:54,520 --> 01:36:00,320
Speaker 6: to remind everyone that China is the third largest voting

1755
01:36:00,439 --> 01:36:05,280
Speaker 6: member of the IMF, which is a real issue for

1756
01:36:05,479 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 6: both the sort of liberal and pro CCP accounts of

1757
01:36:09,120 --> 01:36:12,600
Speaker 6: the conflict between the CCP and the IMF over providing loans.

1758
01:36:12,760 --> 01:36:16,360
Speaker 9: Because you know, contrary to the way both.

1759
01:36:16,200 --> 01:36:18,160
Speaker 6: Of these groups seem to think about sort of the

1760
01:36:18,280 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 6: modern capitalist economy, China is not a you know, an

1761
01:36:22,439 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 6: old communist radical like throwing stones at the liberal order

1762
01:36:25,400 --> 01:36:28,559
Speaker 6: from outside the house. They are parts of the global

1763
01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:32,760
Speaker 6: financial institutions. And to the extent that like you know,

1764
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:36,280
Speaker 6: China can be fighting an institution that it is also

1765
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:39,040
Speaker 6: a part of right to the sense of to the

1766
01:36:39,120 --> 01:36:42,320
Speaker 6: sent that that even makes sense to talk about. What

1767
01:36:42,479 --> 01:36:45,960
Speaker 6: you're really talking about is just inter capitalist competition over

1768
01:36:46,080 --> 01:36:50,360
Speaker 6: who gets to give people loans. Now, there's other interesting

1769
01:36:50,479 --> 01:36:53,439
Speaker 6: stuff in this report, like an admission that the Chinese

1770
01:36:54,240 --> 01:36:57,440
Speaker 6: you know, the sort of Chinese debt trap narrative is overblown,

1771
01:36:57,920 --> 01:37:01,799
Speaker 6: and this is true. The sort of like case study

1772
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:05,000
Speaker 6: in about like a Chinese company taking a port in

1773
01:37:05,080 --> 01:37:11,880
Speaker 6: Sri Lanka is not It's not exactly like the story

1774
01:37:11,920 --> 01:37:14,800
Speaker 6: that everyone thinks it is. And you know, like the

1775
01:37:14,880 --> 01:37:18,120
Speaker 6: Chinese company like got the port after like a bidding

1776
01:37:18,240 --> 01:37:19,240
Speaker 6: process and stuff.

1777
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:21,360
Speaker 2: So you know, and this is true.

1778
01:37:23,120 --> 01:37:24,680
Speaker 6: And the fact that it's been used sort of like

1779
01:37:24,800 --> 01:37:27,599
Speaker 6: hyped up to do fear mongering is absolutely true. However,

1780
01:37:29,400 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 6: the thing the Council in Foreign Relations can't actually sort

1781
01:37:33,960 --> 01:37:37,439
Speaker 6: of say is that the actual conclusion that you get

1782
01:37:37,560 --> 01:37:41,479
Speaker 6: if you look closely at sort of combination of you know,

1783
01:37:42,000 --> 01:37:44,840
Speaker 6: country like Sri Lanka that has both IMF loans and

1784
01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:52,080
Speaker 6: like loads from China is that all of the lenders

1785
01:37:52,520 --> 01:37:56,080
Speaker 6: in the global capitalist economy absolutely suck and they all

1786
01:37:56,160 --> 01:37:58,640
Speaker 6: exploit the working class and the deador countries like in

1787
01:37:58,760 --> 01:38:04,560
Speaker 6: their own ways. Do you know who else exploits the

1788
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:09,880
Speaker 6: working class of debtor countries? It is the products and

1789
01:38:09,920 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 6: services that support this podcast and we're back now. What

1790
01:38:16,439 --> 01:38:20,800
Speaker 6: is notable about Belton Road is that Belton Roads infrastructure

1791
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:26,000
Speaker 6: projects usually do actually get built, but for all of

1792
01:38:26,160 --> 01:38:29,559
Speaker 6: the sort of screaming about like China's geopolitical expansion, its

1793
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:33,120
Speaker 6: attempt to subvert the Democrats, subvert the democratic order. The

1794
01:38:33,280 --> 01:38:36,360
Speaker 6: actual reason why these projects, unlike you know, so many

1795
01:38:36,439 --> 01:38:40,360
Speaker 6: other large scale development projects, actually happen and you know,

1796
01:38:40,560 --> 01:38:45,400
Speaker 6: actually do get built, is much more banal. It is

1797
01:38:45,479 --> 01:38:49,880
Speaker 6: a product of internal Chinese economics. So to explain this,

1798
01:38:49,960 --> 01:38:52,160
Speaker 6: I'm going to turn to another example of a type

1799
01:38:52,200 --> 01:38:57,160
Speaker 6: of Belton Road project giving countries loans to buy telecommunications

1800
01:38:57,200 --> 01:39:00,599
Speaker 6: and internet equipment from Chinese companies. Here's some dot org.

1801
01:39:01,800 --> 01:39:06,040
Speaker 6: China's demand for infrastructure, including communications and internet gear, is

1802
01:39:06,120 --> 01:39:08,040
Speaker 6: not as high as it used to be, said Chinese

1803
01:39:08,080 --> 01:39:12,000
Speaker 6: Development Big President Jang Gigi. So what can we do

1804
01:39:12,200 --> 01:39:16,080
Speaker 6: with the excess production capacity. We can only send it abroad.

1805
01:39:17,200 --> 01:39:19,959
Speaker 6: We may give you loans to buy Chinese equipment and materials,

1806
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:23,480
Speaker 6: but there must be a Chinese element, Jang told AFP

1807
01:39:23,680 --> 01:39:26,920
Speaker 6: of his bank's loans to help Chinese firms abroad. Now

1808
01:39:27,760 --> 01:39:30,240
Speaker 6: this is an interesting quote for a number of reasons.

1809
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:34,639
Speaker 6: Recent sort of American and also Canadian. The Canadians went

1810
01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:39,000
Speaker 6: wild over this concern around Chinese telecom companies. Have you

1811
01:39:39,080 --> 01:39:42,519
Speaker 6: know argued that the spread of Chinese economy communication technology

1812
01:39:42,600 --> 01:39:45,720
Speaker 6: is like a geopolitical power grab by the CCP, a

1813
01:39:45,880 --> 01:39:48,839
Speaker 6: Chinese development bank. However, kind of like lets the actual

1814
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:52,439
Speaker 6: game slip, which is that the reason for these loans,

1815
01:39:52,600 --> 01:39:55,160
Speaker 6: and you know, a major impetus for the sort of

1816
01:39:55,320 --> 01:39:59,120
Speaker 6: broader Belt and Road initiative is finding a solution to

1817
01:39:59,240 --> 01:40:04,799
Speaker 6: Chinese production over capacity, which is the giant structural problem

1818
01:40:04,960 --> 01:40:08,200
Speaker 6: which sort of hangs like the doom of Damocles over

1819
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:13,679
Speaker 6: the Chinese economy. And this is incredibly important. Foreign policy

1820
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:16,559
Speaker 6: analysts have a tendency which is replicated in the media

1821
01:40:17,040 --> 01:40:20,519
Speaker 6: to think about Belton Road is fundamentally a geopolitical tool.

1822
01:40:21,240 --> 01:40:25,240
Speaker 6: Take for example, this line from Foreign Policy quote will

1823
01:40:25,439 --> 01:40:29,320
Speaker 6: the developing world fall through China sway? Many policy makers

1824
01:40:29,360 --> 01:40:32,560
Speaker 6: in Washington, DC certainly fear so, which is one of

1825
01:40:32,600 --> 01:40:36,640
Speaker 6: the reasons they have created the new International Development Finance Corporation,

1826
01:40:37,160 --> 01:40:39,120
Speaker 6: which is slated to begin operating at the end of

1827
01:40:39,200 --> 01:40:41,960
Speaker 6: this year. Like the Marshall Plan, which in post World

1828
01:40:42,040 --> 01:40:45,360
Speaker 6: War two years used generous economic aid to fight the

1829
01:40:45,439 --> 01:40:51,280
Speaker 6: appeal of Soviet Communism in Western Europe, the International Development

1830
01:40:51,400 --> 01:40:55,080
Speaker 6: Finance Corporation aims to help Washington push back against Beijing

1831
01:40:55,240 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 6: sweeping Belton Road initiative. Now, fascinatingly, the authors don't seemed

1832
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:03,720
Speaker 6: to understand what the Marshall Plan actually was. Now, the

1833
01:41:03,800 --> 01:41:08,479
Speaker 6: Marshall Plan, you know, despite what you will like probably

1834
01:41:08,600 --> 01:41:13,640
Speaker 6: read in sort of like mainstream like diplomatic histories, was

1835
01:41:13,800 --> 01:41:19,320
Speaker 6: not like originally was not really driven by anti communism

1836
01:41:19,360 --> 01:41:22,040
Speaker 6: at all. It was in large part a product of

1837
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:26,439
Speaker 6: massive industrial overcapacity in post war In the post war US,

1838
01:41:26,560 --> 01:41:30,439
Speaker 6: particularly in the automotive sector, demand from the domestic American

1839
01:41:30,479 --> 01:41:35,000
Speaker 6: market couldn't support the enormously expanded auto industry's industrial capacity.

1840
01:41:35,320 --> 01:41:37,200
Speaker 6: And so the auto industry went to Congress and tried

1841
01:41:37,200 --> 01:41:39,680
Speaker 6: to get them to rebuild Europe as like, you know,

1842
01:41:39,920 --> 01:41:43,680
Speaker 6: another market that they could sell there, you know, that

1843
01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:45,840
Speaker 6: they could sell cars to that could absorb the product

1844
01:41:45,880 --> 01:41:48,599
Speaker 6: or of throbic capacity. The only way they could actually

1845
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:50,640
Speaker 6: get this to work was to tie it to a

1846
01:41:50,760 --> 01:41:54,519
Speaker 6: raft of anti communism. And this is now how the

1847
01:41:54,600 --> 01:41:56,880
Speaker 6: project is remembered as this, you know, as this sort

1848
01:41:56,880 --> 01:42:01,840
Speaker 6: of like grand anti communists like political strategy, you know.

1849
01:42:02,320 --> 01:42:05,840
Speaker 6: And in this sense, Belton Road can be understood as

1850
01:42:06,000 --> 01:42:09,280
Speaker 6: China's Marshall Plan. It is a bold attempt to forge

1851
01:42:09,280 --> 01:42:13,840
Speaker 6: an international solution to its domestic economic problems. And this

1852
01:42:14,160 --> 01:42:17,680
Speaker 6: means to actually understand what Belton Road is, we need

1853
01:42:17,800 --> 01:42:21,840
Speaker 6: to go back to the beginning. In response to the

1854
01:42:21,920 --> 01:42:24,720
Speaker 6: financial collapse of two thousand and eight, China carry out

1855
01:42:24,840 --> 01:42:28,759
Speaker 6: what was until COVID the largest stimulus in human history,

1856
01:42:29,200 --> 01:42:34,240
Speaker 6: an incomprehensibly large Kinesian program focused on internal infrastructure development

1857
01:42:34,880 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 6: designed to shock the Chinese economy back into shape, and

1858
01:42:38,439 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 6: it worked for about one year. In twenty ten, the

1859
01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:46,400
Speaker 6: Chinese economy hit ten percent a year on yr GDP growth,

1860
01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:50,639
Speaker 6: and it has been falling ever since. In twenty eleven,

1861
01:42:50,760 --> 01:42:53,599
Speaker 6: the round of global uprisings kicked off by the Arab Spring,

1862
01:42:53,720 --> 01:42:55,720
Speaker 6: hit China in the form with the Wukan riots and

1863
01:42:55,800 --> 01:42:59,160
Speaker 6: a wave of strikes, and by twenty thirteen, a year

1864
01:42:59,240 --> 01:43:03,560
Speaker 6: into the first new Chinese presidents, Chichiping, the economy was

1865
01:43:03,640 --> 01:43:06,040
Speaker 6: doing terribly and the government was still not out of

1866
01:43:06,080 --> 01:43:10,880
Speaker 6: the woods politically either. In response, the government announced two

1867
01:43:11,000 --> 01:43:14,559
Speaker 6: programs within about four months of each other, Belton Road

1868
01:43:14,880 --> 01:43:18,679
Speaker 6: and the so called Mini Stimulus, another Chinese stimulus package

1869
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:23,120
Speaker 6: aimed at improving Chinese rails at the proper term for it,

1870
01:43:24,160 --> 01:43:28,080
Speaker 6: and it ended improving the Chinese train network. Now, these

1871
01:43:28,160 --> 01:43:32,080
Speaker 6: two programs were effectively the same response to the economic

1872
01:43:32,160 --> 01:43:35,679
Speaker 6: crisis fased by the CCP. Rising wages of strike activity

1873
01:43:35,760 --> 01:43:39,720
Speaker 6: and later environmental protests were threatening the profitability of the

1874
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,440
Speaker 6: Chinese manufacturing sector in its traditional coastal urban sector.

1875
01:43:43,240 --> 01:43:43,879
Speaker 2: Is like Shenzhen.

1876
01:43:46,640 --> 01:43:50,120
Speaker 6: The solution then was to move Chinese capital towards the

1877
01:43:50,280 --> 01:43:53,960
Speaker 6: interior of the country, into more rural areas with lower wages,

1878
01:43:54,600 --> 01:43:58,960
Speaker 6: and then build an infrastructure network to export Chinese commodities abroad.

1879
01:44:00,479 --> 01:44:03,840
Speaker 6: This move serves several purposes at the same time. On

1880
01:44:03,960 --> 01:44:06,479
Speaker 6: the one hand, cheaper rural workers are less likely to

1881
01:44:06,640 --> 01:44:09,880
Speaker 6: organize either strikes or environmental protests. On the other hand,

1882
01:44:11,280 --> 01:44:14,479
Speaker 6: some kind of rural investment could secure rural factional support

1883
01:44:14,520 --> 01:44:16,639
Speaker 6: for the Party at a time when the rural Ukon

1884
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 6: riots meant that such support was anything but assured. But

1885
01:44:22,000 --> 01:44:25,759
Speaker 6: even in twenty thirteen, it was clear that the vaunted

1886
01:44:25,880 --> 01:44:28,679
Speaker 6: Chinese transition to a consumer economy was going to fail

1887
01:44:29,000 --> 01:44:33,880
Speaker 6: because and this is really blindingly obvious if you think,

1888
01:44:34,000 --> 01:44:36,000
Speaker 6: if you think about how the Chinese economy works for

1889
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:40,879
Speaker 6: like ten seconds, Okay, in order to have a consumer economy,

1890
01:44:41,320 --> 01:44:45,640
Speaker 6: you must have a class of consumers. Now, this requires

1891
01:44:45,760 --> 01:44:49,479
Speaker 6: average people to have a thing called money, and both

1892
01:44:49,600 --> 01:44:53,760
Speaker 6: Jesionping and the Chinese capitalist class were broadly just absolutely

1893
01:44:54,280 --> 01:44:59,800
Speaker 6: resolutely refuse to do anything that involves paying Chinese workers more,

1894
01:45:00,439 --> 01:45:03,160
Speaker 6: which is what you need to make this happen, and

1895
01:45:03,320 --> 01:45:06,880
Speaker 6: they just refuse to do it. It is genuinely stunning.

1896
01:45:07,280 --> 01:45:07,839
Speaker 9: Xi Jinping.

1897
01:45:08,120 --> 01:45:12,720
Speaker 6: Xi Jinping would literally rather force like the force the

1898
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:15,760
Speaker 6: randomly the head like the CEOs of corporations to give

1899
01:45:15,880 --> 01:45:19,080
Speaker 6: money to charity and call it a government program before

1900
01:45:19,240 --> 01:45:23,960
Speaker 6: he would like fucking raise a minimum wage. So you know,

1901
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:27,080
Speaker 6: if you're in twenty thirteen, right, you can see the

1902
01:45:27,160 --> 01:45:30,439
Speaker 6: writing on the wall. You can see the Chinese economy

1903
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:34,519
Speaker 6: isn't going to like turn into a consumer economy. There's been,

1904
01:45:34,760 --> 01:45:37,000
Speaker 6: you know, there's been some transition into like a service

1905
01:45:37,040 --> 01:45:39,519
Speaker 6: based economy, but like you know, ask ask the US

1906
01:45:39,640 --> 01:45:41,960
Speaker 6: how growth that a service based economy works for you.

1907
01:45:44,120 --> 01:45:46,559
Speaker 6: And because they've seen the writing on the wall, Chinese

1908
01:45:46,600 --> 01:45:50,160
Speaker 6: capitalists start looking for ways to make money overseas, and

1909
01:45:50,640 --> 01:45:54,400
Speaker 6: this overlaps with a growing demand to do something with

1910
01:45:54,560 --> 01:45:59,400
Speaker 6: the enormous reserves of American dollars that China has from

1911
01:45:59,479 --> 01:46:01,920
Speaker 6: like basically propping up the US economy by buying like

1912
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:05,320
Speaker 6: a trillion dollars of US bonds in the two thousands

1913
01:46:05,360 --> 01:46:07,200
Speaker 6: and early twenty tens. And like you think I'm joking

1914
01:46:07,240 --> 01:46:09,720
Speaker 6: when I say, like e trillion dollars, but it is

1915
01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:15,040
Speaker 6: actually around a trillion dollars. Well, okay, this is where

1916
01:46:15,080 --> 01:46:20,800
Speaker 6: I need to make an enormous disclaimer. Why okay, it

1917
01:46:20,960 --> 01:46:25,080
Speaker 6: is atrociously difficult to get reliable economic statistics out of China,

1918
01:46:25,240 --> 01:46:29,639
Speaker 6: to the point where, like the Chinese central government when

1919
01:46:29,720 --> 01:46:33,719
Speaker 6: they get data from their own provinces, who are legally

1920
01:46:33,840 --> 01:46:37,800
Speaker 6: required to report data to them, they have to mess

1921
01:46:38,080 --> 01:46:41,559
Speaker 6: with the data to make it make literally any sense

1922
01:46:41,600 --> 01:46:44,960
Speaker 6: at all. They have these they have these equations that

1923
01:46:45,479 --> 01:46:48,080
Speaker 6: that they like apply to the statistical data from the

1924
01:46:48,160 --> 01:46:51,760
Speaker 6: provinces they get that are effectively attempts to calculate how

1925
01:46:51,840 --> 01:46:54,280
Speaker 6: much the provinces are lying to the central government and

1926
01:46:54,360 --> 01:46:56,200
Speaker 6: how you know, and try to figure out a way

1927
01:46:56,240 --> 01:46:59,479
Speaker 6: to fix it. And you know, they are doing things.

1928
01:46:59,560 --> 01:47:03,200
Speaker 6: They are doing things like that, they're doing things out

1929
01:47:03,240 --> 01:47:06,320
Speaker 6: of like the old late Soviet Union. They are they

1930
01:47:06,360 --> 01:47:10,320
Speaker 6: are they are using satellite pictures to check how much

1931
01:47:10,479 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 6: light there is from factories at nights. They are like

1932
01:47:13,960 --> 01:47:17,400
Speaker 6: measuring how many freight trains are like going into a

1933
01:47:17,520 --> 01:47:20,719
Speaker 6: province and trying to use that to estimate their actual

1934
01:47:20,800 --> 01:47:21,920
Speaker 6: industrial capacity.

1935
01:47:22,560 --> 01:47:23,559
Speaker 2: It is wild.

1936
01:47:23,680 --> 01:47:27,960
Speaker 6: And that is just the CCP trying to figure out

1937
01:47:28,760 --> 01:47:36,400
Speaker 6: its own numbers. And that means, right that the numbers

1938
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:42,000
Speaker 6: the CCP actually decides to release when they're done trying

1939
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:44,880
Speaker 6: to get the data to look kind of real so

1940
01:47:44,960 --> 01:47:46,839
Speaker 6: they can understand what's going on in their own economy.

1941
01:47:48,600 --> 01:47:48,760
Speaker 2: You know.

1942
01:47:48,920 --> 01:47:51,479
Speaker 6: So there's that data which is unreliable because again, like

1943
01:47:52,479 --> 01:47:54,640
Speaker 6: you're dealing with, everyone is lying to you, but what

1944
01:47:54,720 --> 01:47:56,960
Speaker 6: the data is, but in the data of the CCP

1945
01:47:57,080 --> 01:48:00,760
Speaker 6: actually releases. Oh boy, So we're gonna come back to

1946
01:48:00,840 --> 01:48:03,479
Speaker 6: this in a little bit. But Chinese youth unemployment right

1947
01:48:03,479 --> 01:48:06,320
Speaker 6: now is twenty percent. And the CCP's response to this

1948
01:48:06,560 --> 01:48:09,040
Speaker 6: is they've announced that they refused to release any more

1949
01:48:09,080 --> 01:48:14,160
Speaker 6: youth unemployment numbers until they finish like recalculating it or something.

1950
01:48:14,479 --> 01:48:18,120
Speaker 6: So great stuff, amazing stuff happening in the world of

1951
01:48:18,200 --> 01:48:19,439
Speaker 6: Chinese satistical addicxes.

1952
01:48:19,600 --> 01:48:23,200
Speaker 2: It is awful. I don't wish this on anyone.

1953
01:48:24,680 --> 01:48:28,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, Now, all of this is to say that the

1954
01:48:29,000 --> 01:48:32,880
Speaker 6: case I'm about to make is probably true, Like there's

1955
01:48:32,920 --> 01:48:35,680
Speaker 6: like a ninety percent chance that what I'm about to

1956
01:48:35,720 --> 01:48:38,000
Speaker 6: say is true, but we don't one hundred percent know

1957
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:41,040
Speaker 6: because it relies on Chinese economic data that is incredibly sketchy,

1958
01:48:41,560 --> 01:48:43,439
Speaker 6: and a lot of this has turned into this sort

1959
01:48:43,479 --> 01:48:47,040
Speaker 6: of like game of financial hide and seek with all

1960
01:48:47,080 --> 01:48:49,960
Speaker 6: these assets that are in weird places. But what seems

1961
01:48:50,040 --> 01:48:51,840
Speaker 6: to have happened is that a lot of built in

1962
01:48:51,920 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 6: road projects are being funded by Chinese for inch just

1963
01:48:54,560 --> 01:48:56,680
Speaker 6: change research, which is those trillions of dollars of like

1964
01:48:57,280 --> 01:48:59,800
Speaker 6: bonds I was talking about earlier. Of that, you know,

1965
01:49:00,160 --> 01:49:02,320
Speaker 6: we're moved from the People's Bank of China which is

1966
01:49:02,400 --> 01:49:05,400
Speaker 6: China Central Bank to like other banks, and then those

1967
01:49:05,520 --> 01:49:09,640
Speaker 6: banks use that to do investments. And this appears to

1968
01:49:09,680 --> 01:49:11,400
Speaker 6: be some of the money that was used to fund

1969
01:49:11,400 --> 01:49:13,439
Speaker 6: belt and road projects. And this is where things get

1970
01:49:13,640 --> 01:49:18,639
Speaker 6: very sketchy. Now, these banks seem to initially have been

1971
01:49:18,720 --> 01:49:21,960
Speaker 6: flushed with capital, which you know, contributed to a massive

1972
01:49:22,240 --> 01:49:24,519
Speaker 6: like as as the product is initially starting and up

1973
01:49:24,520 --> 01:49:27,240
Speaker 6: through about twenty eighteen, like it's just you know, it

1974
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:29,799
Speaker 6: just keeps the amount of money going into this keeps increasing,

1975
01:49:29,920 --> 01:49:32,479
Speaker 6: keeps increasing, and then twenty eighteen, it starts to slow.

1976
01:49:33,160 --> 01:49:35,639
Speaker 6: And then after the pandemic, and particularly after like twenty

1977
01:49:35,680 --> 01:49:39,760
Speaker 6: twenty twenty two, like the amount of money that's going

1978
01:49:39,800 --> 01:49:44,040
Speaker 6: into belt road projects has imploded, and the amounts of

1979
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:51,080
Speaker 6: loans that the CCP is writing off has just diminished enormously. Now, Okay,

1980
01:49:52,160 --> 01:49:56,200
Speaker 6: this is the sketchy part. You will see a lot

1981
01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:58,599
Speaker 6: of people if you look into this, who are going

1982
01:49:58,680 --> 01:50:03,920
Speaker 6: to argue that the reason that these loans have sort

1983
01:50:03,920 --> 01:50:05,960
Speaker 6: of dried up and the reason that this has been

1984
01:50:06,000 --> 01:50:09,439
Speaker 6: decreasing is that China is like burning through its reserve

1985
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 6: of foreign exchange, like it's burnning out of its burning

1986
01:50:13,240 --> 01:50:15,760
Speaker 6: burning through its reserve of like US dollars that it

1987
01:50:15,840 --> 01:50:21,519
Speaker 6: has its banks. This may be true, maybe it's probably

1988
01:50:21,680 --> 01:50:25,200
Speaker 6: not true of like twenty eighteen, because and this is

1989
01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:28,920
Speaker 6: the thing that's been discovered very recently, a lot of

1990
01:50:29,400 --> 01:50:33,880
Speaker 6: Chinese's like a lot of things that like are technically

1991
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:37,760
Speaker 6: foreign exchange reserves were like technically aren't qualified classified as

1992
01:50:37,760 --> 01:50:41,240
Speaker 6: foreign exchange reserves because they've been weird stuff has happened

1993
01:50:41,240 --> 01:50:43,600
Speaker 6: to the balance sheet. I don't know, it's kind of

1994
01:50:43,640 --> 01:50:46,040
Speaker 6: a mess, but like it seems like China has way

1995
01:50:46,200 --> 01:50:49,240
Speaker 6: way larger. They have these things called shadow reserves that

1996
01:50:49,400 --> 01:50:51,960
Speaker 6: are the things that they've been using to like turn

1997
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:56,280
Speaker 6: for x into like investments, and this seems to this

1998
01:50:56,400 --> 01:50:59,519
Speaker 6: seems to indicate that China has like way way larger

1999
01:50:59,600 --> 01:51:03,679
Speaker 6: foreign exchange reserves then it tacnically are on the balance sheet.

2000
01:51:04,560 --> 01:51:09,479
Speaker 6: So what the actual relationship between how much forward exchange

2001
01:51:10,320 --> 01:51:12,920
Speaker 6: reserves China has and how much money is putting into

2002
01:51:12,960 --> 01:51:13,400
Speaker 6: belt in run.

2003
01:51:13,520 --> 01:51:14,000
Speaker 4: We don't know.

2004
01:51:14,720 --> 01:51:17,600
Speaker 6: It's a disaster, but what we do know is that

2005
01:51:18,080 --> 01:51:24,200
Speaker 6: these investments were not like sort of like mere geopolitical tools, right,

2006
01:51:24,439 --> 01:51:27,519
Speaker 6: These investments were actually designed to make money, and that

2007
01:51:27,720 --> 01:51:30,439
Speaker 6: means that they were and still are, an attempt to

2008
01:51:30,560 --> 01:51:33,280
Speaker 6: solve sort of the weakness of the Chinese economy by

2009
01:51:33,360 --> 01:51:36,880
Speaker 6: finding ways to invest capital with better returns than the

2010
01:51:37,040 --> 01:51:42,080
Speaker 6: absolutely terrible and increasingly dogshit rates that you can find

2011
01:51:42,120 --> 01:51:43,719
Speaker 6: in China. And this is something that we've been seeing,

2012
01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:47,680
Speaker 6: you know, in the last year, We've been watching sort

2013
01:51:47,720 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 6: of the dogs come like the chickens come home to

2014
01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:52,439
Speaker 6: roost for the Chinese economy, where like, you know, all

2015
01:51:52,479 --> 01:51:54,960
Speaker 6: this debt build ups paying off. Why I say it

2016
01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:56,720
Speaker 6: paying off all this debt build up is you know,

2017
01:51:56,960 --> 01:51:59,960
Speaker 6: like really starting to damage the economy, like the housing

2018
01:52:00,320 --> 01:52:04,920
Speaker 6: is kind of imploding, and you know, Belton Road was

2019
01:52:05,439 --> 01:52:07,920
Speaker 6: supposed to be sort of the answer to this. Right,

2020
01:52:08,000 --> 01:52:11,439
Speaker 6: If you combined, if you combine the fact that we

2021
01:52:11,600 --> 01:52:13,559
Speaker 6: know for a fact that these loans are an attempt

2022
01:52:13,560 --> 01:52:15,519
Speaker 6: to actually like generate returns, and we also know that

2023
01:52:15,600 --> 01:52:17,400
Speaker 6: these loans are a way to sort of stimulate demand

2024
01:52:17,439 --> 01:52:20,200
Speaker 6: for Chinese goods that there's no domestic market for, we

2025
01:52:20,360 --> 01:52:23,439
Speaker 6: get this clear picture of what's really driving Belton Road.

2026
01:52:23,560 --> 01:52:26,640
Speaker 6: It's the crisis of Chinese capital, which in and of

2027
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:29,000
Speaker 6: itself is just sort of a global reflection of the

2028
01:52:29,040 --> 01:52:32,720
Speaker 6: global crisis of overproduction under consumption that's haunted the world

2029
01:52:32,760 --> 01:52:38,320
Speaker 6: since the nineteen seventies. Now, there's one last aspect of

2030
01:52:38,400 --> 01:52:40,360
Speaker 6: Belton Road that we need to talk about that gets

2031
01:52:40,439 --> 01:52:43,200
Speaker 6: way less attention than any other aspect of the initiative.

2032
01:52:44,360 --> 01:52:48,160
Speaker 6: Belton Road also acts as a work program for a

2033
01:52:48,280 --> 01:52:52,920
Speaker 6: very specific kind of Chinese worker. Belton Road projects, as

2034
01:52:52,960 --> 01:52:56,439
Speaker 6: you see in Jamaica, are run by Chinese corporations almost always,

2035
01:52:56,479 --> 01:52:59,679
Speaker 6: I mean occasionally other firms get contracted. Mostly it's Chinese

2036
01:52:59,680 --> 01:53:03,559
Speaker 6: corporate and they import Chinese workers to do the work.

2037
01:53:04,360 --> 01:53:06,640
Speaker 6: And you know, we've looked at it from the Jamaican end,

2038
01:53:06,960 --> 01:53:09,439
Speaker 6: where you know, Jamaican workers are getting screw odd jobs

2039
01:53:09,479 --> 01:53:12,120
Speaker 6: and wages, but we should also look at it from

2040
01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:17,439
Speaker 6: the perspective of Chinese workers as well. Working in China,

2041
01:53:17,520 --> 01:53:21,400
Speaker 6: as we've discussed elsewhere extensively sucks ass. Wages are dogshit,

2042
01:53:21,520 --> 01:53:24,040
Speaker 6: the hours are inhuman, and there's intense competition for what.

2043
01:53:24,120 --> 01:53:24,960
Speaker 4: Jobs do exist.

2044
01:53:25,800 --> 01:53:28,479
Speaker 6: On the other hand, salaries for Chinese workers on built

2045
01:53:28,479 --> 01:53:31,400
Speaker 6: in road projects are much much higher than they are

2046
01:53:31,479 --> 01:53:36,320
Speaker 6: for the same job in China. Amazingly, Chinese corporations abroad

2047
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:40,360
Speaker 6: actually have less ability to just not pay people for

2048
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:44,560
Speaker 6: their work, which is, you know, the thing that you know,

2049
01:53:44,760 --> 01:53:46,439
Speaker 6: usually the first thing that rich people are trying to

2050
01:53:46,479 --> 01:53:48,280
Speaker 6: do when they when they have our face with having

2051
01:53:48,320 --> 01:53:51,720
Speaker 6: to pay someone in Chinese corporations absolutely constantly attempt to

2052
01:53:51,840 --> 01:53:56,160
Speaker 6: just not pay their workers. And as a bonus to that,

2053
01:53:56,240 --> 01:53:58,439
Speaker 6: on top of the fact that you're like actually getting paid,

2054
01:53:58,479 --> 01:54:00,439
Speaker 6: and you're getting paid way more of you would for

2055
01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:04,719
Speaker 6: working a job in China, these these Belton road jobs

2056
01:54:04,760 --> 01:54:07,840
Speaker 6: have a much faster promotion track and the cost of

2057
01:54:07,960 --> 01:54:11,240
Speaker 6: living is much lower than it is in China. Which

2058
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:14,160
Speaker 6: allows workers to save money and cent remittances back home.

2059
01:54:15,040 --> 01:54:18,200
Speaker 6: That mean this means that Belton Road jobs, which are specifically,

2060
01:54:18,360 --> 01:54:21,599
Speaker 6: you know, in sort of like nationalist circles, conceptualized as

2061
01:54:21,720 --> 01:54:26,600
Speaker 6: quote Africa, which is oh boy, is seen as you know,

2062
01:54:27,200 --> 01:54:29,560
Speaker 6: it's seen as a way out for Chinese workers. And

2063
01:54:29,600 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 6: we actually talked about this a long time ago in

2064
01:54:31,520 --> 01:54:35,320
Speaker 6: our Lying Flat anti work episodes. Part of the origins

2065
01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:37,560
Speaker 6: of Lying Flat was his reaction to this sort of

2066
01:54:37,640 --> 01:54:40,920
Speaker 6: like nationalist discourse but like finding your own personal Africa

2067
01:54:41,080 --> 01:54:44,960
Speaker 6: to break out of like Chinese involution. And you know,

2068
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:49,920
Speaker 6: from this kind of like ulternationalist, like really racist like concept,

2069
01:54:50,000 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 6: you get this like left wing backlash of co opting

2070
01:54:53,120 --> 01:54:55,240
Speaker 6: of like the refusal to work that is you know,

2071
01:54:55,360 --> 01:54:59,879
Speaker 6: lying flat. But for our purposes right now, the important

2072
01:55:00,040 --> 01:55:03,480
Speaker 6: thing about this is Belton Road was a solution to

2073
01:55:03,600 --> 01:55:06,640
Speaker 6: a sort of new like highly educated Chinese working class

2074
01:55:06,760 --> 01:55:11,080
Speaker 6: who you know, were suddenly realizing that like this education

2075
01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:13,440
Speaker 6: that they put literally everything into and this like they

2076
01:55:13,600 --> 01:55:15,840
Speaker 6: sunk their entire lives into, was just going to get

2077
01:55:15,840 --> 01:55:20,680
Speaker 6: them nowhere. And you know, Belton Road appeared as a

2078
01:55:20,760 --> 01:55:25,000
Speaker 6: sort of mirage of way out. But it's not it's

2079
01:55:25,080 --> 01:55:28,200
Speaker 6: not a way out for Chinese workers. It's it's its

2080
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:30,400
Speaker 6: own kind of imperialism. It's the same sort of shit

2081
01:55:30,480 --> 01:55:32,920
Speaker 6: that oil companies do where they said highly paid American

2082
01:55:33,000 --> 01:55:36,160
Speaker 6: workers to oil wells in Nigeria to avoid having to

2083
01:55:36,280 --> 01:55:38,800
Speaker 6: deal with, you know, a class of skilled and politically

2084
01:55:38,840 --> 01:55:42,120
Speaker 6: sophisticated Nigerian oil workers. It's the same kind of sort

2085
01:55:42,120 --> 01:55:44,720
Speaker 6: of racial divide and conquer that funds Chinese workers at

2086
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:50,040
Speaker 6: the expense of workers in Jamaica, and that ultimately is

2087
01:55:50,160 --> 01:55:53,160
Speaker 6: the core of both Belton Road and the American response

2088
01:55:53,200 --> 01:55:56,280
Speaker 6: to Belton Road. It is a desperate attempt to keep

2089
01:55:56,360 --> 01:55:59,120
Speaker 6: the embers of capital burning by lighting the working class

2090
01:55:59,160 --> 01:56:02,240
Speaker 6: on fire, feeding it to the flames.

2091
01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:21,560
Speaker 2: Hi. Everyone, it's me James today and I'm joined by

2092
01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:24,720
Speaker 2: Meghan Bodette, who's the director of research at the Kurdish

2093
01:56:24,760 --> 01:56:28,200
Speaker 2: Peace Institute. We're picking up where we left off at

2094
01:56:28,200 --> 01:56:32,040
Speaker 2: the end of last week to discuss more about the

2095
01:56:32,640 --> 01:56:37,080
Speaker 2: Autonomous Administration in North and Eastyria and perhaps more specifically,

2096
01:56:37,120 --> 01:56:42,280
Speaker 2: to talk about the detainees the ISIS detainees in the

2097
01:56:42,360 --> 01:56:44,200
Speaker 2: Al Whole camp and in other camps around there.

2098
01:56:45,040 --> 01:56:48,320
Speaker 10: How are you, Megan, I'm doing well, thank you, James,

2099
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:50,760
Speaker 10: thank you for having me on for this important conversation

2100
01:56:50,880 --> 01:56:55,040
Speaker 10: about a really critical security and humanitarian issue that we're

2101
01:56:55,040 --> 01:56:56,560
Speaker 10: seeing in north east Syria these days.

2102
01:56:57,200 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, thanks for joining us. So I think start

2103
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:02,880
Speaker 2: out with would you be comfortable giving a sort of

2104
01:57:03,920 --> 01:57:09,160
Speaker 2: baseline explanation of what's happening with these ISIS detainees and why,

2105
01:57:09,680 --> 01:57:12,120
Speaker 2: despite the fact that many of them are citizens of

2106
01:57:12,240 --> 01:57:14,800
Speaker 2: other countries, they haven't been a returned there.

2107
01:57:15,640 --> 01:57:18,480
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's a very important place to start with. So essentially,

2108
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:22,520
Speaker 10: after the territorial defeat of ISIS in twenty and nineteen

2109
01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:27,600
Speaker 10: by the Syrian Democratic Forces and the International Coalition, the

2110
01:57:27,920 --> 01:57:31,040
Speaker 10: Syrian Democratic Forces and the Autonomous Administration, which is the

2111
01:57:31,040 --> 01:57:35,360
Speaker 10: political body governing Northeast Syria ended up with tens of

2112
01:57:35,480 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 10: thousands of ISIS detainees and the family members of these

2113
01:57:41,080 --> 01:57:44,760
Speaker 10: ISIS members as well. And in the Alhol camp you

2114
01:57:44,880 --> 01:57:49,480
Speaker 10: now have a population of essentially ISIS affiliated women and

2115
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:53,440
Speaker 10: the children of ISIS members who are now housed in

2116
01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:58,360
Speaker 10: that camp as well. And this camp is a serious

2117
01:57:58,440 --> 01:58:01,520
Speaker 10: humanitarian issue. You have these children who are in very

2118
01:58:01,560 --> 01:58:05,960
Speaker 10: difficult conditions. It's a massive security problem for these surrounding

2119
01:58:06,080 --> 01:58:09,160
Speaker 10: Syrian and Iraqi communities that were victimized by ISIS and

2120
01:58:09,240 --> 01:58:13,280
Speaker 10: the world. ISIS openly wants to reconstitute itself. It is

2121
01:58:13,440 --> 01:58:17,440
Speaker 10: operating inside the camp clandestinely to reconstitute itself. It wants

2122
01:58:17,520 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 10: to break prisoners out and go right back to its

2123
01:58:20,400 --> 01:58:24,960
Speaker 10: genocidal policies against minorities in the region like Zidis and Christians,

2124
01:58:25,040 --> 01:58:27,760
Speaker 10: and to continue terror attacks not only in Iraq and

2125
01:58:27,840 --> 01:58:31,080
Speaker 10: Syria but around the world. It's also a real drain

2126
01:58:31,200 --> 01:58:34,879
Speaker 10: on the resources of the Autonomous Administration and the SDF themselves,

2127
01:58:35,240 --> 01:58:37,640
Speaker 10: who we have to remember are not a state actor,

2128
01:58:37,720 --> 01:58:39,920
Speaker 10: but are dealing with the sort of problems that even

2129
01:58:39,960 --> 01:58:43,560
Speaker 10: the wealthiest and most militarily established state actors would have

2130
01:58:43,680 --> 01:58:46,880
Speaker 10: trouble with. So they've ended up in this unenviable position

2131
01:58:46,960 --> 01:58:50,400
Speaker 10: of having to take care of essentially criminals from around

2132
01:58:50,440 --> 01:58:54,120
Speaker 10: the world who came to their country to commit mass atrocities,

2133
01:58:54,720 --> 01:58:57,440
Speaker 10: while the victims of these ISIS crimes across Northern and

2134
01:58:57,520 --> 01:59:01,400
Speaker 10: Eastern Syria and victims of the subst Turkish invasions that

2135
01:59:01,520 --> 01:59:04,240
Speaker 10: a Northern and Eastern Syria suffered during and after the

2136
01:59:04,280 --> 01:59:08,040
Speaker 10: fight against ISIS really lack basic resources. Now, this is

2137
01:59:08,120 --> 01:59:09,680
Speaker 10: something I heard a lot on the ground when I

2138
01:59:09,760 --> 01:59:12,320
Speaker 10: was in the region in February and March, speaking to

2139
01:59:12,360 --> 01:59:15,560
Speaker 10: people from Afrin, which was invaded and occupied by Turkey

2140
01:59:15,640 --> 01:59:19,840
Speaker 10: in twenty eighteen, and to people from Serkanya and Telabyad,

2141
01:59:19,920 --> 01:59:22,680
Speaker 10: which were invaded and occupied by Turkey in twenty nineteen.

2142
01:59:23,320 --> 01:59:27,000
Speaker 10: Many of them asked rightly why there were so many

2143
01:59:27,160 --> 01:59:32,000
Speaker 10: resources from international bodies and NGOs and governments provided towards

2144
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:36,800
Speaker 10: the ISIS detainees in al Hole and the ISIS affiliated

2145
01:59:36,840 --> 01:59:40,240
Speaker 10: individuals there, when their communities, their families who had done

2146
01:59:40,320 --> 01:59:43,360
Speaker 10: nothing other than simply living in areas that Turkey decided

2147
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:46,520
Speaker 10: to invade and occupy, who were displaced because of that

2148
01:59:46,760 --> 01:59:50,080
Speaker 10: in what experts, including myself, would refer to as ethnic cleansing.

2149
01:59:50,600 --> 01:59:53,800
Speaker 10: These communities are receiving nothing from the international community. You know,

2150
01:59:53,880 --> 01:59:57,880
Speaker 10: they feel forgotten and they have some serious questions about that.

2151
01:59:58,600 --> 02:00:01,240
Speaker 10: Of course, the Autonomous Administration has many needs and many

2152
02:00:01,320 --> 02:00:05,480
Speaker 10: pressing security problems that it simply can't devote enough resources

2153
02:00:05,520 --> 02:00:08,680
Speaker 10: to when it's tasked with managing the world's ISIS members.

2154
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:11,280
Speaker 10: So in a recent study that we published at the

2155
02:00:11,360 --> 02:00:14,800
Speaker 10: Kurdish Peace Institute by journalist Matt Broomfield, who spent a

2156
02:00:14,840 --> 02:00:17,160
Speaker 10: lot of time on the ground in northeast Syria during

2157
02:00:17,200 --> 02:00:19,920
Speaker 10: and after the defeat of ISIS. He found that just

2158
02:00:20,120 --> 02:00:23,600
Speaker 10: four percent of foreign ISIS fighters held by Syrian Kurdish

2159
02:00:23,640 --> 02:00:28,040
Speaker 10: authorities have been repatriated since twenty nineteen four percent. The

2160
02:00:28,120 --> 02:00:31,320
Speaker 10: most of the repatriations have been women and children, not

2161
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:34,560
Speaker 10: the fighters themselves, who are housed in prisons. But of

2162
02:00:34,600 --> 02:00:36,960
Speaker 10: course the women and children are a humanitarian issue and

2163
02:00:37,000 --> 02:00:39,760
Speaker 10: a security issue too, so think about that. Those are

2164
02:00:39,880 --> 02:00:41,640
Speaker 10: really dangerous numbers.

2165
02:00:42,400 --> 02:00:47,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that differentiation between fighters and women

2166
02:00:47,080 --> 02:00:49,960
Speaker 2: and children is interesting and perhaps one we should like

2167
02:00:50,080 --> 02:00:53,760
Speaker 2: pick apart a little bit, because we talked about this

2168
02:00:53,800 --> 02:00:57,839
Speaker 2: before we recorded. There's a betrayal certainly of like Western

2169
02:00:57,880 --> 02:01:01,920
Speaker 2: women who went to join ISIS as having been sort

2170
02:01:01,920 --> 02:01:05,920
Speaker 2: of victims in their own right, which some of them

2171
02:01:05,960 --> 02:01:07,960
Speaker 2: were very young, right and might not have been making

2172
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:11,560
Speaker 2: adult choices at that time. And that's one thing. But

2173
02:01:11,680 --> 02:01:14,520
Speaker 2: like a lot of these people willingly participated in an

2174
02:01:14,640 --> 02:01:19,400
Speaker 2: extremely oppressive and violent regime, and they sort of a

2175
02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:22,880
Speaker 2: being that they're often not portrayed as such in the press.

2176
02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:23,680
Speaker 2: Is that fair to say?

2177
02:01:24,280 --> 02:01:27,160
Speaker 10: Absolutely? Look what I always go back to when I

2178
02:01:27,600 --> 02:01:30,840
Speaker 10: talk about this issue is reading accounts from Uzb women

2179
02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:35,040
Speaker 10: and children who survived ISIS captivity, who said on multiple

2180
02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:38,080
Speaker 10: occasions that the women were no less brutal than the men,

2181
02:01:38,880 --> 02:01:42,400
Speaker 10: and that they were willing participants in every aspect of

2182
02:01:42,720 --> 02:01:47,560
Speaker 10: the worst of ISIS crimes of genocide, of crimes against humanity,

2183
02:01:47,600 --> 02:01:50,680
Speaker 10: against the zd people and of course all the other

2184
02:01:50,760 --> 02:01:54,280
Speaker 10: peoples that ISIS targeted. So that I think when you

2185
02:01:54,440 --> 02:01:58,960
Speaker 10: have these genocide survivors saying that no, these women participated

2186
02:01:59,040 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 10: fully in these crimes. They facilitated these crimes, They made

2187
02:02:02,960 --> 02:02:07,360
Speaker 10: this system of genocide of crimes against humanity possible. That's

2188
02:02:07,400 --> 02:02:09,640
Speaker 10: something we have to listen to. And I'm glad that

2189
02:02:09,680 --> 02:02:12,400
Speaker 10: you bring up the Western media portrayal because you really

2190
02:02:12,520 --> 02:02:16,400
Speaker 10: you see this idea that the women could not have

2191
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:20,440
Speaker 10: been perpetrators themselves, when what we hear on the ground

2192
02:02:20,680 --> 02:02:22,800
Speaker 10: is that that's not true, and what legal cases have

2193
02:02:22,880 --> 02:02:25,400
Speaker 10: begun to find is that that's not true either. There's

2194
02:02:25,520 --> 02:02:30,160
Speaker 10: been trials in Europe for ISIS affiliated women for their

2195
02:02:30,240 --> 02:02:34,560
Speaker 10: complicity in acts of genocide against the Auzeti community. And

2196
02:02:34,720 --> 02:02:37,440
Speaker 10: you know, one point that you hear very commonly on

2197
02:02:37,560 --> 02:02:40,760
Speaker 10: the ground is that. How can there have only been

2198
02:02:41,320 --> 02:02:43,600
Speaker 10: one or two, just a handful of trials. I'm not

2199
02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:47,240
Speaker 10: sure the exact number. But after all of these people missing,

2200
02:02:47,360 --> 02:02:51,040
Speaker 10: all of these people killed, how are all of these

2201
02:02:51,120 --> 02:02:53,560
Speaker 10: ISIS members? And that's why I said, you know ISIS

2202
02:02:53,600 --> 02:02:56,000
Speaker 10: affiliated women, because I don't think I do agree with you.

2203
02:02:56,120 --> 02:02:58,320
Speaker 10: It's a disservice to just refer to them as ISIS

2204
02:02:58,400 --> 02:03:03,160
Speaker 10: brides or whatever sensationalistic media framing you have. These people

2205
02:03:03,160 --> 02:03:06,120
Speaker 10: simply aren't being put on trial. And one of the

2206
02:03:06,200 --> 02:03:08,720
Speaker 10: reasons for that is that when we come to female

2207
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:12,040
Speaker 10: members of ISIS, there is this perception, both in media

2208
02:03:12,240 --> 02:03:17,120
Speaker 10: and from governments, from international institutions, that these women are

2209
02:03:17,240 --> 02:03:22,560
Speaker 10: victims that because they're women, because they subscribed willingly to

2210
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:27,360
Speaker 10: a political and ideological system that was very, very oppressive

2211
02:03:27,400 --> 02:03:31,720
Speaker 10: of women, that puts women only into certain roles as housewives,

2212
02:03:31,840 --> 02:03:34,960
Speaker 10: as mothers of the next generation of ISIS, that these

2213
02:03:35,000 --> 02:03:37,680
Speaker 10: women couldn't have committed atrocities.

2214
02:03:37,120 --> 02:03:37,880
Speaker 2: But they have.

2215
02:03:38,720 --> 02:03:39,080
Speaker 7: They did.

2216
02:03:40,080 --> 02:03:41,720
Speaker 10: And you know what we're hearing right now, and some

2217
02:03:41,840 --> 02:03:44,240
Speaker 10: of the reporting that's coming out of Northeast Syria is

2218
02:03:44,280 --> 02:03:49,400
Speaker 10: that even within the camps, these women have continued to

2219
02:03:49,920 --> 02:03:53,800
Speaker 10: commit some of the most serious abuses that ISIS has

2220
02:03:53,840 --> 02:03:58,960
Speaker 10: been committing. There's reports that they have raped, sexually assaulted

2221
02:03:59,720 --> 02:04:03,000
Speaker 10: the teenage boys who are in the camp in order

2222
02:04:03,120 --> 02:04:09,360
Speaker 10: to essentially become pregnant and raise more children to create

2223
02:04:09,480 --> 02:04:11,880
Speaker 10: that next generation of ISIS that they seek to create.

2224
02:04:12,640 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 10: And so this continued perpetration of sexual violence against these

2225
02:04:16,480 --> 02:04:19,880
Speaker 10: boys who've done nothing other than had the misfortune to

2226
02:04:19,920 --> 02:04:22,440
Speaker 10: have their parents be members of ISIS. You know, this

2227
02:04:22,600 --> 02:04:25,360
Speaker 10: is a very very serious allegation. The reporting about this

2228
02:04:25,640 --> 02:04:28,480
Speaker 10: is something that needs to be taken very seriously. Like

2229
02:04:28,600 --> 02:04:30,720
Speaker 10: I said, this is a massive human rights crisis for

2230
02:04:30,880 --> 02:04:34,960
Speaker 10: these children and it is you know, these women are

2231
02:04:35,320 --> 02:04:38,320
Speaker 10: no less dangerous and no less culpable for their crimes

2232
02:04:38,560 --> 02:04:42,200
Speaker 10: than their male counterparts who joined ISIS.

2233
02:04:42,760 --> 02:04:44,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's just very fair to say, And

2234
02:04:44,600 --> 02:04:47,080
Speaker 2: it's somewhat of a like sexist outlook to be like

2235
02:04:47,120 --> 02:04:49,320
Speaker 2: a women couldn't have had agency in the way that

2236
02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:54,320
Speaker 2: men clearly have been held accountable for. And I think

2237
02:04:54,560 --> 02:04:58,240
Speaker 2: it's the last issue you raised. It's obviously pretty horrible,

2238
02:04:59,320 --> 02:05:02,600
Speaker 2: but also we should at least dig into a little bit.

2239
02:05:02,720 --> 02:05:06,600
Speaker 2: I think like the ongoing like not only the abuse

2240
02:05:06,640 --> 02:05:09,200
Speaker 2: of children, but like the sort of attempt to indoctrinate

2241
02:05:09,320 --> 02:05:13,320
Speaker 2: children into that same like extremist ideology, the attempts to

2242
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:15,960
Speaker 2: even like I've seen videos of kids training with little

2243
02:05:15,960 --> 02:05:20,600
Speaker 2: wooden guns, and yeah, I'm sort of raising another generation

2244
02:05:20,720 --> 02:05:24,120
Speaker 2: of people who believe in this kind of hateful outlook.

2245
02:05:24,560 --> 02:05:27,280
Speaker 2: And can you talk a little bit about how common

2246
02:05:27,360 --> 02:05:29,720
Speaker 2: that is or how I guess you don't know entirely,

2247
02:05:29,840 --> 02:05:31,200
Speaker 2: but can you speak to that a little bit.

2248
02:05:31,800 --> 02:05:33,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean that is something that none of us

2249
02:05:33,960 --> 02:05:36,640
Speaker 10: know how common it is because of the sort of

2250
02:05:36,680 --> 02:05:40,080
Speaker 10: difficulty of accessing that information. But if you look at

2251
02:05:40,200 --> 02:05:43,840
Speaker 10: what is coming in from sources from North and East Syria,

2252
02:05:44,040 --> 02:05:49,600
Speaker 10: from international reporting on the camp, these women are indoctrinating

2253
02:05:49,640 --> 02:05:54,200
Speaker 10: their children into the ISIS ideology. They have said many

2254
02:05:54,280 --> 02:05:56,760
Speaker 10: times over and many of their communications that their goal

2255
02:05:57,040 --> 02:06:01,080
Speaker 10: is to raise the next generation of ISIS fighter. There's

2256
02:06:01,160 --> 02:06:03,560
Speaker 10: no reason to believe that the majority of these women

2257
02:06:03,640 --> 02:06:07,320
Speaker 10: have given up on their beliefs, and there is evidence

2258
02:06:07,480 --> 02:06:10,720
Speaker 10: that this is what they're trying to do. And of course,

2259
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:13,440
Speaker 10: when you look at the broader situation that these children

2260
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:17,680
Speaker 10: are in, it's a situation that's exceedingly conducive to radicalization

2261
02:06:17,920 --> 02:06:20,720
Speaker 10: because of the poor conditions in the camps because of

2262
02:06:21,160 --> 02:06:24,000
Speaker 10: the fact that they remain with their mothers, many of

2263
02:06:24,040 --> 02:06:27,000
Speaker 10: whom believe firmly in ISIS ideology and who see the

2264
02:06:27,120 --> 02:06:30,560
Speaker 10: role of women in ISIS as doing exactly that, as

2265
02:06:30,720 --> 02:06:37,040
Speaker 10: passing down this ideology. And you know, when these children

2266
02:06:37,360 --> 02:06:39,920
Speaker 10: they can't be safely repatriated to their countries, they can't

2267
02:06:39,960 --> 02:06:42,080
Speaker 10: be put into safe environments where they can receive the

2268
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:46,040
Speaker 10: support they need, the positive influences, they need, any kind

2269
02:06:46,120 --> 02:06:50,120
Speaker 10: of medical or psychological help that they need in these conditions,

2270
02:06:50,880 --> 02:06:55,120
Speaker 10: it's inevitable that you're going to have the continuation of

2271
02:06:55,320 --> 02:06:59,440
Speaker 10: this ISIS ideology being perpetrated and the adults there, these

2272
02:06:59,480 --> 02:07:05,040
Speaker 10: women cantinuing to pass this down on these children, who

2273
02:07:05,160 --> 02:07:08,120
Speaker 10: again have done nothing to be put in the situation

2274
02:07:08,280 --> 02:07:11,200
Speaker 10: that they're in. They're continuing to be victimized by the

2275
02:07:11,360 --> 02:07:15,480
Speaker 10: actions of their parents and the other ISIS members. So

2276
02:07:16,240 --> 02:07:19,080
Speaker 10: and the international community too, as it fault here for

2277
02:07:19,680 --> 02:07:24,200
Speaker 10: refusing to repatriate at least these children and to try

2278
02:07:24,760 --> 02:07:28,280
Speaker 10: ISIS perpetrators of war crimes, criinds against humanity and genocide.

2279
02:07:28,840 --> 02:07:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, in some cases they've even been like had their

2280
02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:33,920
Speaker 2: citizenship stripped from them of the countries that they came from,

2281
02:07:34,520 --> 02:07:36,840
Speaker 2: the UK have done that for example, right, which is

2282
02:07:36,960 --> 02:07:42,720
Speaker 2: kind of just failing to do anything to acknowledge it,

2283
02:07:42,840 --> 02:07:45,120
Speaker 2: like this is an international problem that they.

2284
02:07:45,120 --> 02:07:45,760
Speaker 9: Have help completely.

2285
02:07:46,880 --> 02:07:49,320
Speaker 10: And that's something we can get into, is the international

2286
02:07:49,760 --> 02:07:54,800
Speaker 10: dynamic surrounding these issues, because it's obviously very closely related

2287
02:07:54,840 --> 02:07:57,480
Speaker 10: to the ISIS issue, but it touches on so many

2288
02:07:57,560 --> 02:07:59,800
Speaker 10: other very internationalized conflicts as well.

2289
02:08:00,280 --> 02:08:04,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's do that. Perhaps before we explain the way

2290
02:08:05,120 --> 02:08:08,040
Speaker 2: the nations that are more distant from this are engaging

2291
02:08:08,080 --> 02:08:10,560
Speaker 2: with it, we should talk about how nations that are

2292
02:08:10,560 --> 02:08:14,040
Speaker 2: more proximal to this are engaging within specifically how at

2293
02:08:14,160 --> 02:08:18,200
Speaker 2: times it seems like Turkish drone strikes, which we've discussed

2294
02:08:18,240 --> 02:08:21,840
Speaker 2: previously on our podcasts so people be familiar with them,

2295
02:08:22,400 --> 02:08:27,800
Speaker 2: have the very least not helped the SDF to keep

2296
02:08:27,880 --> 02:08:32,000
Speaker 2: these camps secure, right, And in some cases it's you

2297
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:35,440
Speaker 2: can see, like there's a video that the YPJ have

2298
02:08:35,880 --> 02:08:39,520
Speaker 2: of like these people celebrating a drone strike inside the camp,

2299
02:08:40,240 --> 02:08:42,800
Speaker 2: And can you talk about the impact these drone strikes have.

2300
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:49,000
Speaker 10: Look something that has been reported by journalists, by local sources,

2301
02:08:49,280 --> 02:08:53,040
Speaker 10: and by all sorts of international researchers and experts since

2302
02:08:53,200 --> 02:08:55,720
Speaker 10: the earliest days of the war against ISIS is that

2303
02:08:56,560 --> 02:09:00,920
Speaker 10: Turkey wanted ISIS to succeed in it's mission of taking

2304
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:05,200
Speaker 10: over northern Iraq and northern Syria in order to not

2305
02:09:05,480 --> 02:09:10,080
Speaker 10: only destroy Kurdish political and military structures operating there, including

2306
02:09:10,320 --> 02:09:13,400
Speaker 10: the YPG, the YPJ, the later the SDF, and the

2307
02:09:13,480 --> 02:09:18,120
Speaker 10: Autonomous Administration, but also to destroy the social base for

2308
02:09:18,320 --> 02:09:22,120
Speaker 10: any form of Kurdish autonomy, any kind of multi ethnic

2309
02:09:22,240 --> 02:09:25,760
Speaker 10: project to potentially be able to exist there, either now

2310
02:09:26,120 --> 02:09:30,480
Speaker 10: or in the future. And this facilitation of the rise

2311
02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:34,000
Speaker 10: of ISIS reached such a level that you've had legal

2312
02:09:34,080 --> 02:09:38,440
Speaker 10: experts through the Yazidi Justice Committee, which published an in

2313
02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:42,520
Speaker 10: depth report on this last year, find based on a

2314
02:09:42,600 --> 02:09:46,080
Speaker 10: review of the evidence that Turkey was quote complicit in

2315
02:09:46,200 --> 02:09:50,080
Speaker 10: the commission of genocide end quote by ISIS by allowing

2316
02:09:50,120 --> 02:09:52,760
Speaker 10: fighters to cross its borders to join the group, allowing

2317
02:09:52,800 --> 02:09:56,800
Speaker 10: ISIS related economic activity to go on, and other forms

2318
02:09:56,880 --> 02:09:59,560
Speaker 10: of facilitation of the rise of ISIS when it was

2319
02:09:59,600 --> 02:10:04,040
Speaker 10: committee its most serious crimes. So this is not something new.

2320
02:10:04,800 --> 02:10:08,960
Speaker 10: The way that these drone strikes specifically impact this issue.

2321
02:10:09,440 --> 02:10:12,680
Speaker 10: They're part of the broader Turkish campaign of aggression against

2322
02:10:12,720 --> 02:10:16,720
Speaker 10: Northeast Syria. Obviously, the two ground invasions of Afrin and

2323
02:10:16,840 --> 02:10:20,360
Speaker 10: of Sera Kanya and Talabyad had very negative impacts on

2324
02:10:20,400 --> 02:10:24,640
Speaker 10: the fight against ISIS and the drone strikes. Now, first

2325
02:10:24,680 --> 02:10:27,200
Speaker 10: of all, they make it difficult for any SDF or

2326
02:10:27,280 --> 02:10:30,840
Speaker 10: autonomous administration structure to simply do the day to day

2327
02:10:30,920 --> 02:10:34,560
Speaker 10: work of providing security and providing the government. You know,

2328
02:10:34,640 --> 02:10:36,840
Speaker 10: if a government official or a member of the local

2329
02:10:36,880 --> 02:10:41,280
Speaker 10: security forces has to modify their behavior, has to modify

2330
02:10:41,320 --> 02:10:44,120
Speaker 10: where they go, how they interact with their constituents. You know,

2331
02:10:44,200 --> 02:10:46,880
Speaker 10: what kind of missions they can conduct to avoid being

2332
02:10:47,000 --> 02:10:49,560
Speaker 10: assassinated in a drone strike, They're simply not going to

2333
02:10:49,600 --> 02:10:53,640
Speaker 10: be as effective. Right, So this is a problem in

2334
02:10:53,800 --> 02:10:57,320
Speaker 10: many areas. It certainly impacts the counter ISIS mission, and

2335
02:10:57,480 --> 02:11:03,600
Speaker 10: Turkey has specifically started to increasingly target ans, SDF and

2336
02:11:04,080 --> 02:11:08,320
Speaker 10: Asayish internal security forces personnel who are directly engaged in

2337
02:11:08,480 --> 02:11:12,800
Speaker 10: counter ISIS missions. We saw this in late twenty twenty

2338
02:11:12,840 --> 02:11:16,800
Speaker 10: two when there were severe Turkish air operations following a

2339
02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:21,240
Speaker 10: bombing in Istanbul that Turkey, based on all evidence, falsely

2340
02:11:21,480 --> 02:11:25,640
Speaker 10: attempted to attribute to Kurdish groups despite there being no

2341
02:11:25,920 --> 02:11:34,080
Speaker 10: real evidence supporting that claim. These attacks targeted civilians, civilian infrastructure,

2342
02:11:34,760 --> 02:11:38,879
Speaker 10: and SDF forces engaged in key counter ISIS missions, including

2343
02:11:39,520 --> 02:11:43,480
Speaker 10: SDF forces involved in securing the Alhole Camp. And now

2344
02:11:43,600 --> 02:11:46,280
Speaker 10: we've even started to see in addition to these anti

2345
02:11:46,440 --> 02:11:50,760
Speaker 10: SDF anti Autonomous Administration drone strikes, Turkey's been using drones

2346
02:11:50,840 --> 02:11:55,600
Speaker 10: to fire essentially warning shots at the international coalition led

2347
02:11:55,640 --> 02:11:58,600
Speaker 10: by the US and the other coalition countries itself. We

2348
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:00,800
Speaker 10: saw this in November when there were a drone strike

2349
02:12:00,880 --> 02:12:04,680
Speaker 10: on the joint SDF coalition base where the SDF and

2350
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:08,760
Speaker 10: the international community worked together to plan ongoing counter ISIS missions,

2351
02:12:09,400 --> 02:12:12,880
Speaker 10: and earlier this year, in i believe April of this year,

2352
02:12:13,320 --> 02:12:16,800
Speaker 10: the drone strike on Sulimania International Airport in Iraqi, Kurdastan,

2353
02:12:16,920 --> 02:12:21,280
Speaker 10: where there was a joint SDF coalition convoy where SDF

2354
02:12:21,320 --> 02:12:24,320
Speaker 10: Commander in Chief Muslim Kobani was present and US forces

2355
02:12:24,360 --> 02:12:29,120
Speaker 10: were also present. That strike, for all intents and purposes,

2356
02:12:29,640 --> 02:12:33,320
Speaker 10: was Turkey's attempt not only to threaten the SDF and

2357
02:12:33,400 --> 02:12:37,040
Speaker 10: the Autonomous Administration, but to threaten the coalition as well,

2358
02:12:37,240 --> 02:12:42,120
Speaker 10: specifically for its continuing counter isis partnership with Syrian Kurds.

2359
02:12:42,320 --> 02:12:45,040
Speaker 10: So this has risen to a level where Turkey is

2360
02:12:45,080 --> 02:12:48,600
Speaker 10: not only using these to disrupt governance and security at

2361
02:12:48,680 --> 02:12:51,840
Speaker 10: the local level in the Autonomous administration, it's not only

2362
02:12:51,960 --> 02:12:56,680
Speaker 10: using them against locally led SDFYPG led counter ISIS missions,

2363
02:12:57,160 --> 02:13:01,080
Speaker 10: but Turkey is using drones to threaten the entire global

2364
02:13:01,240 --> 02:13:05,200
Speaker 10: counter ISIS campaign, of which on paper is formally a member.

2365
02:13:05,400 --> 02:13:08,720
Speaker 2: So there you go, Yeah, and Turkey is kind of

2366
02:13:08,760 --> 02:13:12,240
Speaker 2: it's we've talked about this again before, how it pressured

2367
02:13:13,040 --> 02:13:17,480
Speaker 2: like newer NATO members Finland and Sweden to even stop

2368
02:13:17,560 --> 02:13:22,000
Speaker 2: accepting Kurdish refugees, right, It's yeah, while at the same

2369
02:13:22,040 --> 02:13:25,000
Speaker 2: time being a member of NATO and as you say,

2370
02:13:25,120 --> 02:13:29,560
Speaker 2: also like drone striking other members of NATO. It's certainly

2371
02:13:30,000 --> 02:13:34,640
Speaker 2: like it's making it as hard as possible for people

2372
02:13:34,880 --> 02:13:37,760
Speaker 2: in this part of the world to have the stability

2373
02:13:37,920 --> 02:13:40,080
Speaker 2: and peace and the things that they fought so hard

2374
02:13:40,160 --> 02:13:42,960
Speaker 2: for for such a long time. I wonder if you

2375
02:13:43,000 --> 02:13:46,640
Speaker 2: can talk about, like, so, what is the into as

2376
02:13:46,680 --> 02:13:48,920
Speaker 2: far as the international community exists, which is a pretty

2377
02:13:48,960 --> 02:13:53,280
Speaker 2: nebulous thing to really kind of pin down, but is

2378
02:13:53,840 --> 02:13:56,720
Speaker 2: what is specifically like this US led coalition to the

2379
02:13:56,760 --> 02:13:59,600
Speaker 2: feat ISIS. I think they call it doing to help,

2380
02:13:59,840 --> 02:14:03,360
Speaker 2: and I guess a little more broadly, building on that,

2381
02:14:04,360 --> 02:14:07,600
Speaker 2: this coalition has a very narrow focus in a place

2382
02:14:07,640 --> 02:14:11,560
Speaker 2: where there are a lot of different aggresses to include

2383
02:14:12,160 --> 02:14:16,520
Speaker 2: various other Islamist groups, to include the Turkish State and

2384
02:14:16,600 --> 02:14:21,000
Speaker 2: obviously the day the state in Syria. Can you explain

2385
02:14:21,000 --> 02:14:23,520
Speaker 2: a little bit about how the mission of this coalition

2386
02:14:23,840 --> 02:14:27,080
Speaker 2: is narrow in a way that helps it doing the

2387
02:14:27,160 --> 02:14:29,520
Speaker 2: things that people on the ground they need to ensure

2388
02:14:29,560 --> 02:14:30,360
Speaker 2: peace and stability.

2389
02:14:31,160 --> 02:14:34,200
Speaker 10: Yeah, exactly. That's a really important question because, as you said,

2390
02:14:35,160 --> 02:14:40,080
Speaker 10: this international relationship with North Eastyria is very narrowly built

2391
02:14:40,320 --> 02:14:43,839
Speaker 10: on a counter ISIS focus, which means a military focus.

2392
02:14:44,280 --> 02:14:49,040
Speaker 10: So there's relationships between security forces and security forces. What

2393
02:14:49,160 --> 02:14:52,600
Speaker 10: we don't see our political relationships. And this connects to

2394
02:14:52,840 --> 02:14:56,080
Speaker 10: a wide variety of issues related to this immediate problem

2395
02:14:56,360 --> 02:15:01,000
Speaker 10: of ISIS, of securing ISIS prisoners, of bringing perpetrators of

2396
02:15:01,080 --> 02:15:04,480
Speaker 10: genocide and war crimes to justice, but it also connects

2397
02:15:04,480 --> 02:15:07,480
Speaker 10: to the deeper problem of the kind of long term

2398
02:15:07,600 --> 02:15:12,480
Speaker 10: stability in Syria that's necessary to end this ongoing civil war,

2399
02:15:12,640 --> 02:15:14,800
Speaker 10: to bring justice to the victims of ISIS and to

2400
02:15:14,920 --> 02:15:18,400
Speaker 10: all other abuses and atrocities during the twelve years of

2401
02:15:18,480 --> 02:15:21,880
Speaker 10: conflict in Syria, and to prevent the next endless war

2402
02:15:22,440 --> 02:15:26,040
Speaker 10: in this region from inevitably taking place in the future.

2403
02:15:26,960 --> 02:15:30,400
Speaker 10: So we have this narrow military partnership. The reason that

2404
02:15:30,560 --> 02:15:33,560
Speaker 10: this relationship evolved in this way was going back to

2405
02:15:34,120 --> 02:15:37,960
Speaker 10: the role of Turkey, because the United States and its

2406
02:15:38,000 --> 02:15:42,080
Speaker 10: European allies had no other option but to partner with

2407
02:15:42,440 --> 02:15:45,400
Speaker 10: Kurdish groups if they wanted to achieve a territorial defeat

2408
02:15:45,440 --> 02:15:48,040
Speaker 10: of ISIS in Iraq and Syria. There was no force

2409
02:15:48,120 --> 02:15:51,400
Speaker 10: other than the SDF and the YPG and the YPGA

2410
02:15:51,480 --> 02:15:56,600
Speaker 10: at that time that would be capable of the military

2411
02:15:57,560 --> 02:16:01,640
Speaker 10: responsibility of defeating ISIS. It was essentially, if people remember

2412
02:16:01,720 --> 02:16:05,960
Speaker 10: the resistance of the YPG and the YPJ at Kobani

2413
02:16:06,600 --> 02:16:10,720
Speaker 10: in northeast northeastern Syria, that held out long enough where

2414
02:16:10,840 --> 02:16:13,720
Speaker 10: the United States and the international Coalition realized that their

2415
02:16:13,840 --> 02:16:16,320
Speaker 10: only option if they wanted to defeat ISIS on the

2416
02:16:16,360 --> 02:16:20,480
Speaker 10: ground was to partner with these forces. Before that, also,

2417
02:16:20,960 --> 02:16:25,200
Speaker 10: we're recording this in August, the situation in Sinjar where

2418
02:16:25,240 --> 02:16:28,800
Speaker 10: ISIS had gone in had committed genocide against the Azdi community,

2419
02:16:29,240 --> 02:16:31,560
Speaker 10: and we're the only people who were able to actually

2420
02:16:31,680 --> 02:16:35,680
Speaker 10: come in and help Uzidis defend themselves and evacuate refugees

2421
02:16:35,720 --> 02:16:39,280
Speaker 10: to safety in Syria, where again the YPG, the YPJ

2422
02:16:39,800 --> 02:16:44,320
Speaker 10: and the PKK gorillas as well. Because these Kurdish forces

2423
02:16:44,400 --> 02:16:48,120
Speaker 10: were able to help local civilians in Sinjar defend themselves

2424
02:16:48,200 --> 02:16:51,520
Speaker 10: and evacuate so many refugees to safety, it forced the

2425
02:16:51,600 --> 02:16:55,600
Speaker 10: international community's hand to act. The PKK intervened in Sinjar

2426
02:16:55,720 --> 02:16:59,320
Speaker 10: to start the humanitarian mission on August fourth, US air

2427
02:16:59,360 --> 02:17:03,240
Speaker 10: strikes began on August seventh. It was this local response

2428
02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:06,800
Speaker 10: from these non state actors that forced the international community,

2429
02:17:07,200 --> 02:17:10,080
Speaker 10: you know, these states with actual treaty obligations to respond

2430
02:17:10,120 --> 02:17:14,520
Speaker 10: to and prevent massatrocities, to take action. But because Turkey

2431
02:17:14,640 --> 02:17:17,440
Speaker 10: views the PKK as a terrorist group, it views the

2432
02:17:17,520 --> 02:17:20,720
Speaker 10: YPG and the YPG as indistinguishable from the PKK and

2433
02:17:20,760 --> 02:17:24,480
Speaker 10: therefore as a terrorist group. The entire counter ISIS mission

2434
02:17:24,520 --> 02:17:27,360
Speaker 10: from the very beginning was faced with this question of

2435
02:17:27,440 --> 02:17:29,960
Speaker 10: how these states that wanted to fight ISIS could do

2436
02:17:30,200 --> 02:17:34,119
Speaker 10: so without offending their relationships with Turkey as a member

2437
02:17:34,160 --> 02:17:38,800
Speaker 10: of NATO and an ally in other respects. So this

2438
02:17:38,920 --> 02:17:42,080
Speaker 10: connects specifically to the ISIS issue, not only because the

2439
02:17:42,560 --> 02:17:46,320
Speaker 10: contradiction here dates back to the counter ISIS campaign, but

2440
02:17:46,520 --> 02:17:52,280
Speaker 10: because actual international trials for ISIS members, actual security policies

2441
02:17:52,400 --> 02:17:56,160
Speaker 10: that could address the problems in al Hole, would legitimize

2442
02:17:56,640 --> 02:17:59,960
Speaker 10: the SDF and the autonomous administration on the international stage,

2443
02:18:00,600 --> 02:18:04,200
Speaker 10: and would legitimize the political philosophies behind what they're doing,

2444
02:18:04,879 --> 02:18:07,680
Speaker 10: all of which Turkey deems to be a very serious

2445
02:18:07,800 --> 02:18:11,240
Speaker 10: national security threat to its existence. I mean, imagine you

2446
02:18:11,320 --> 02:18:15,480
Speaker 10: have a Kurdish woman judge questioning an ISIS member responsible

2447
02:18:15,600 --> 02:18:20,840
Speaker 10: for potentially European and American casualties, certainly responsible for casualties

2448
02:18:20,920 --> 02:18:24,280
Speaker 10: and all sorts of abuses across Iraq and Syria, about

2449
02:18:24,320 --> 02:18:27,440
Speaker 10: the evidence that we have that the international community has,

2450
02:18:27,560 --> 02:18:31,040
Speaker 10: that Northeast Syria has, about how Turkey facilitated ISIS actions,

2451
02:18:31,600 --> 02:18:34,080
Speaker 10: you know, with the YPG and the YPG there for security,

2452
02:18:34,160 --> 02:18:37,240
Speaker 10: with international observers from the US and other coalition countries

2453
02:18:37,280 --> 02:18:41,440
Speaker 10: facilitating providing legal and security support. That would absolutely destroy

2454
02:18:41,520 --> 02:18:45,600
Speaker 10: Turkey's narrative about what individuals and entities are terrorists and

2455
02:18:45,720 --> 02:18:49,920
Speaker 10: which ones have actually contributed not only to the territorial

2456
02:18:50,000 --> 02:18:54,960
Speaker 10: militarily defeat of ISIS, but to social and political and

2457
02:18:55,080 --> 02:18:57,680
Speaker 10: governance projects that are able to prevent, you know, the

2458
02:18:57,760 --> 02:19:02,120
Speaker 10: resurgence of the next eye ISIS. So, you know, this

2459
02:19:02,480 --> 02:19:06,279
Speaker 10: kind of fear of building political relationships with the Autonomous

2460
02:19:06,280 --> 02:19:11,160
Speaker 10: Administration with legitimate this fear of legitimizing the Autonomous Administration

2461
02:19:11,360 --> 02:19:15,520
Speaker 10: project and helping it address security problems in a way

2462
02:19:15,600 --> 02:19:18,480
Speaker 10: that would you know, both increase its standing and legitimacy

2463
02:19:18,600 --> 02:19:23,400
Speaker 10: locally and internationally, and would show how the actions of

2464
02:19:23,440 --> 02:19:28,400
Speaker 10: states like Turkey contributed to prolonging and intensifying the civil

2465
02:19:28,440 --> 02:19:32,680
Speaker 10: war in Syria. States simply don't want to do that yet.

2466
02:19:34,120 --> 02:19:35,720
Speaker 10: But you know, when we look at the long term

2467
02:19:35,840 --> 02:19:40,240
Speaker 10: consequences of whether it's allowing Turkey to continue aggressive actions

2468
02:19:40,280 --> 02:19:42,960
Speaker 10: against North East Syria and more broadly, to pursue a

2469
02:19:43,000 --> 02:19:46,760
Speaker 10: military solution to its Kurdish conflict, whether it's allowing ISIS

2470
02:19:46,840 --> 02:19:50,119
Speaker 10: atrocities to go unpunished, you know, leaving communities that were

2471
02:19:50,160 --> 02:19:54,320
Speaker 10: impacted by ISIS to be essentially re traumatized and left

2472
02:19:54,480 --> 02:19:58,119
Speaker 10: to live in difficult conditions, you know, not receiving justice

2473
02:19:58,760 --> 02:20:01,960
Speaker 10: and allowing these ISIS MAS members to continue to have

2474
02:20:02,240 --> 02:20:06,360
Speaker 10: the space to attempt to reconstitute their group and go

2475
02:20:06,600 --> 02:20:10,280
Speaker 10: back to the kind of atrocities they were committing and

2476
02:20:10,320 --> 02:20:13,800
Speaker 10: attacks they were carrying out worldwide in twenty fourteen twenty fifteen.

2477
02:20:14,520 --> 02:20:16,800
Speaker 10: In the long run, this sort of appeasement of Turkey

2478
02:20:16,920 --> 02:20:19,600
Speaker 10: over the issue of the Kurdish question and the role

2479
02:20:19,680 --> 02:20:23,440
Speaker 10: of the Autonomous Administration, it's going to create the start

2480
02:20:23,560 --> 02:20:26,240
Speaker 10: of the next endless war in the Middle East. And

2481
02:20:27,000 --> 02:20:28,959
Speaker 10: you know, if policymakers want to avoid that, they need

2482
02:20:29,040 --> 02:20:32,000
Speaker 10: to be addressing these problems from a pro peace perspective,

2483
02:20:32,160 --> 02:20:35,280
Speaker 10: from a perspective that brings about justice, you know, political

2484
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:38,680
Speaker 10: solutions based on democracy, on gender equality, on the equality

2485
02:20:38,720 --> 02:20:41,800
Speaker 10: of all communities in the region, all of these values

2486
02:20:41,879 --> 02:20:44,680
Speaker 10: that while imperfectly the Autonomous Administration is really.

2487
02:20:44,600 --> 02:20:45,320
Speaker 11: Trying to fight for.

2488
02:20:46,440 --> 02:20:48,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's super important to point out that

2489
02:20:48,800 --> 02:20:53,440
Speaker 2: this isn't a necessarily a like Turkey versus Kurdish people

2490
02:20:54,040 --> 02:20:56,760
Speaker 2: like wo dichotomy or like those aren't the only people

2491
02:20:56,800 --> 02:20:59,359
Speaker 2: impacted by this, right, Like the I think the majority

2492
02:20:59,360 --> 02:21:02,160
Speaker 2: of the A, yes, it's not Kurdish people, right, and

2493
02:21:02,480 --> 02:21:04,840
Speaker 2: I think we are adf also are not Kurdish.

2494
02:21:06,120 --> 02:21:09,120
Speaker 10: I mean, there's a very good paper by doctor Amy

2495
02:21:09,120 --> 02:21:13,320
Speaker 10: Austen Holmes, who wrote in an analysis of this conflict

2496
02:21:13,400 --> 02:21:17,080
Speaker 10: and the sort of Turkey SDF security dynamics, that what

2497
02:21:17,160 --> 02:21:20,880
Speaker 10: we would refer to as the Turkish Kurdish conflict or

2498
02:21:20,879 --> 02:21:24,520
Speaker 10: the Turkey PKK conflict is actually a conflict that impacts

2499
02:21:24,600 --> 02:21:28,760
Speaker 10: every ethnic and religious group in Turkey, Iraq and Syria.

2500
02:21:29,680 --> 02:21:31,360
Speaker 10: And of course you have and we could do an

2501
02:21:31,480 --> 02:21:34,160
Speaker 10: entire other episode on this. You know, there are certainly

2502
02:21:34,240 --> 02:21:37,040
Speaker 10: Kurds who support Erdwan and the AKP, whether from an

2503
02:21:37,120 --> 02:21:40,440
Speaker 10: Islamist perspective or on the basis of class interests. And

2504
02:21:40,560 --> 02:21:43,680
Speaker 10: you have Turks ethnic Turkish people who went to North

2505
02:21:43,720 --> 02:21:45,879
Speaker 10: East Syria during the height of the fight against ISIS

2506
02:21:45,920 --> 02:21:49,440
Speaker 10: as members of socialist groups to provide humanitarian aid and

2507
02:21:49,560 --> 02:21:52,040
Speaker 10: to join Kurdish forces in their fight against ISIS. On

2508
02:21:52,120 --> 02:21:57,880
Speaker 10: the ground, you have Yuzids, Christians, Syriacs, Assyrians, Armenians, Arabs.

2509
02:21:58,000 --> 02:22:00,360
Speaker 10: All different ethnic groups in Iraq and Syria are very

2510
02:22:00,440 --> 02:22:03,520
Speaker 10: much impacted by this conflict, and particularly because of the

2511
02:22:03,560 --> 02:22:07,440
Speaker 10: Autonomous Administration's multi ethnic and multi religious model. And while

2512
02:22:07,480 --> 02:22:11,400
Speaker 10: the autonomous administration system certainly has it's shortcomings and hasn't

2513
02:22:11,400 --> 02:22:15,280
Speaker 10: been able to perfectly overcome years and years of sectarian

2514
02:22:15,360 --> 02:22:18,360
Speaker 10: and religious and ethnic challenges. It has made a real

2515
02:22:18,400 --> 02:22:21,560
Speaker 10: attempt at including all of the peoples of the region.

2516
02:22:21,600 --> 02:22:23,920
Speaker 10: And that's one of the reasons why despite all of

2517
02:22:23,959 --> 02:22:26,840
Speaker 10: these Turkish attacks, despite the threat of ISSIS, you know,

2518
02:22:26,920 --> 02:22:30,840
Speaker 10: these communities have continued to band together and participate in

2519
02:22:31,000 --> 02:22:34,760
Speaker 10: SDF and autonomous administration structures in order to try to

2520
02:22:34,800 --> 02:22:38,279
Speaker 10: build governance and real post ISIS security. So it's certainly

2521
02:22:38,360 --> 02:22:43,119
Speaker 10: not just a very narrowly defined Turkish Kurdish issue. It's

2522
02:22:43,160 --> 02:22:47,840
Speaker 10: an issue of civil rights, of political rights, of long

2523
02:22:47,959 --> 02:22:51,000
Speaker 10: term security and stability, of what kind of society and

2524
02:22:51,080 --> 02:22:54,320
Speaker 10: what kind of governance can and should exist in this region,

2525
02:22:54,959 --> 02:22:57,960
Speaker 10: where many Kurds and many other ethnic and religious minorities

2526
02:22:58,000 --> 02:23:03,920
Speaker 10: would argue the europe imposition of artificial borders and nation

2527
02:23:04,120 --> 02:23:08,000
Speaker 10: states onto areas that were multi ethnic and multi religious

2528
02:23:08,200 --> 02:23:11,920
Speaker 10: for thousands and thousands of years was the source of

2529
02:23:12,560 --> 02:23:15,000
Speaker 10: a lot of these problems that we see today, not

2530
02:23:15,160 --> 02:23:18,200
Speaker 10: only with ISIS, not only with the Syrian war, with

2531
02:23:18,360 --> 02:23:21,000
Speaker 10: the Kurdish conflict in Turkey, as well with many of

2532
02:23:21,040 --> 02:23:24,720
Speaker 10: the issues that we're seeing in Iraq, in Iran, all

2533
02:23:24,760 --> 02:23:27,360
Speaker 10: over the region. So it goes much deeper than that,

2534
02:23:28,879 --> 02:23:31,680
Speaker 10: And I think that understanding, you know, the very deep

2535
02:23:31,840 --> 02:23:35,000
Speaker 10: historical roots of these issues is what can start to

2536
02:23:35,080 --> 02:23:38,840
Speaker 10: point us to the actual very radical solutions that would

2537
02:23:38,840 --> 02:23:41,360
Speaker 10: be necessary to get long term peace and security.

2538
02:23:42,520 --> 02:23:45,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that those on I think solutions, Like you said,

2539
02:23:45,760 --> 02:23:50,039
Speaker 2: many nation states still exercising kind of pseudocolonial control over

2540
02:23:50,160 --> 02:23:53,520
Speaker 2: these places or trying to or trying to at least

2541
02:23:54,120 --> 02:23:57,360
Speaker 2: sort of use force to extract wealth that are really

2542
02:23:57,440 --> 02:24:01,119
Speaker 2: open to So it creates it's just sort of half asked,

2543
02:24:01,360 --> 02:24:04,360
Speaker 2: like you've said that this sort of limited support for

2544
02:24:04,440 --> 02:24:07,920
Speaker 2: any some parts of a project, which it doesn't work

2545
02:24:08,160 --> 02:24:10,360
Speaker 2: if you only support part of this project right as

2546
02:24:10,360 --> 02:24:14,880
Speaker 2: we're seeing. I wonder if people are interested in following

2547
02:24:15,440 --> 02:24:19,200
Speaker 2: more about this. I think it's something that like so

2548
02:24:19,360 --> 02:24:23,000
Speaker 2: much of the coverage this whole area focuses on, like

2549
02:24:23,120 --> 02:24:27,160
Speaker 2: specifically women in our whole right or women who went

2550
02:24:27,240 --> 02:24:30,400
Speaker 2: to join isis where can people find out more about

2551
02:24:31,040 --> 02:24:34,560
Speaker 2: like the what sources would you suggest for following goings

2552
02:24:34,600 --> 02:24:35,680
Speaker 2: on in this area?

2553
02:24:36,320 --> 02:24:39,279
Speaker 10: So yeah, I would say following local Syrian and Kurdish

2554
02:24:39,360 --> 02:24:42,080
Speaker 10: news sources would be a good place to start. You

2555
02:24:42,240 --> 02:24:45,160
Speaker 10: have sites like North Press where I've written before, that

2556
02:24:45,320 --> 02:24:50,000
Speaker 10: provide good perspectives from Syrian Kurdish writers. You have a

2557
02:24:50,120 --> 02:24:54,200
Speaker 10: human rights organizations working on the ground, groups like Syrians

2558
02:24:54,280 --> 02:24:56,760
Speaker 10: for Truth and Justice that's done a lot of documentation

2559
02:24:57,120 --> 02:25:00,440
Speaker 10: of issues, like for example, ISIS members who've joined Turkey

2560
02:25:00,520 --> 02:25:04,720
Speaker 10: backed groups in the occupied areas. You have arguably one

2561
02:25:04,760 --> 02:25:07,440
Speaker 10: of the best English language resources, not only for their

2562
02:25:07,480 --> 02:25:10,880
Speaker 10: own publications, but for researchers and journalists to reach out to,

2563
02:25:11,520 --> 02:25:14,520
Speaker 10: the Ulsheva Information Center that does a lot of good

2564
02:25:14,560 --> 02:25:16,240
Speaker 10: work on their own and also a lot of really

2565
02:25:16,320 --> 02:25:21,439
Speaker 10: incredible work to facilitate the work of international researchers and journalists.

2566
02:25:22,080 --> 02:25:24,680
Speaker 10: You have the Kurdish media sites like kolar News that

2567
02:25:24,840 --> 02:25:27,920
Speaker 10: will give good updates on what the Autonomous Administration is

2568
02:25:28,000 --> 02:25:31,840
Speaker 10: doing and saying from their perspective. Of course, there are

2569
02:25:31,879 --> 02:25:35,600
Speaker 10: a lot of official pages and sites for Autonomous Administration

2570
02:25:35,760 --> 02:25:39,040
Speaker 10: and SDF institutions as well. Those tend to be in

2571
02:25:39,160 --> 02:25:41,520
Speaker 10: Kurdish or Arabic, so of course if you know either

2572
02:25:41,520 --> 02:25:44,840
Speaker 10: of those languages you can follow them. For English, you

2573
02:25:45,040 --> 02:25:49,680
Speaker 10: have some of the SDF affiliated sites that have been translated.

2574
02:25:49,840 --> 02:25:53,560
Speaker 10: The YPG Information and Documentation Office have done a lot

2575
02:25:53,640 --> 02:25:57,440
Speaker 10: of work on this issue of ISIS and the related

2576
02:25:57,520 --> 02:26:02,120
Speaker 10: security challenges, they publish an English, they provide good information

2577
02:26:02,360 --> 02:26:07,039
Speaker 10: from that security perspective, and then really, I think any

2578
02:26:07,160 --> 02:26:12,960
Speaker 10: sources on social media online that provide good perspectives from

2579
02:26:13,000 --> 02:26:16,320
Speaker 10: people who are on the ground, who are providing reputable information,

2580
02:26:17,080 --> 02:26:19,840
Speaker 10: whether it's from a human rights side of things, from

2581
02:26:20,120 --> 02:26:23,840
Speaker 10: the security side of things, from the administration side of things,

2582
02:26:24,760 --> 02:26:27,280
Speaker 10: it's good to get that full spectrum of perspectives of

2583
02:26:27,360 --> 02:26:29,320
Speaker 10: what different actors are doing and seeing.

2584
02:26:30,320 --> 02:26:31,240
Speaker 7: And then, of course I'd be.

2585
02:26:31,280 --> 02:26:35,360
Speaker 10: Remiss if I did not promote my own institution. We

2586
02:26:35,600 --> 02:26:39,080
Speaker 10: have published coverage of certainly the ISIS issue in North

2587
02:26:39,120 --> 02:26:44,640
Speaker 10: East Syria, but also a lot on the wider political, humanitarian,

2588
02:26:44,760 --> 02:26:49,920
Speaker 10: and security challenges related to these interlocking conflicts in Turkey, Syria, Iraq,

2589
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:56,200
Speaker 10: Kurdistan that have sort of formed the very unstable basis

2590
02:26:56,480 --> 02:27:01,400
Speaker 10: on which these developments relevant to global security issues like

2591
02:27:01,480 --> 02:27:04,440
Speaker 10: ISIS are taking place. So you can certainly read what

2592
02:27:04,560 --> 02:27:05,440
Speaker 10: we've been publishing.

2593
02:27:06,040 --> 02:27:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's an excellent list of resources, and

2594
02:27:08,040 --> 02:27:10,720
Speaker 2: lots of the ones that I've been using, other ones

2595
02:27:10,800 --> 02:27:13,640
Speaker 2: that you've mentioned, I would just I suppose warned people,

2596
02:27:14,240 --> 02:27:19,440
Speaker 2: especially the latest YPJ Information and Documentation Center video and

2597
02:27:19,520 --> 02:27:24,840
Speaker 2: our whole comes with a heavy content warning for violence

2598
02:27:25,840 --> 02:27:27,760
Speaker 2: that you will see there, which is it's documenting things

2599
02:27:27,800 --> 02:27:30,119
Speaker 2: that happen. It's not like they are doing the violence.

2600
02:27:30,160 --> 02:27:30,440
Speaker 4: They're not.

2601
02:27:30,600 --> 02:27:33,160
Speaker 2: But still, if that's something you don't want to see,

2602
02:27:33,240 --> 02:27:36,280
Speaker 2: that's probably a video you don't want to watch, Megan,

2603
02:27:36,360 --> 02:27:39,600
Speaker 2: is there anything people can do to help like this?

2604
02:27:40,200 --> 02:27:42,520
Speaker 2: I was thinking when we were talking of like I

2605
02:27:42,640 --> 02:27:46,039
Speaker 2: met a Kurdish man a month ago at the border

2606
02:27:46,879 --> 02:27:52,120
Speaker 2: being held by immigrats and customs enforcement, But it's not

2607
02:27:52,240 --> 02:27:55,640
Speaker 2: a topic that gets much coverage in the US, and

2608
02:27:55,680 --> 02:27:59,199
Speaker 2: as a result, like people both there and people coming

2609
02:27:59,280 --> 02:28:02,720
Speaker 2: here don't get the compassion that let's say Ukrainian people

2610
02:28:02,760 --> 02:28:07,680
Speaker 2: who are also fleeing conflict do get. And you can

2611
02:28:07,720 --> 02:28:09,440
Speaker 2: see that in a way that they're literally treated differently

2612
02:28:09,440 --> 02:28:11,400
Speaker 2: in immigration laws. So is there anything people can do

2613
02:28:11,760 --> 02:28:12,120
Speaker 2: to help?

2614
02:28:12,640 --> 02:28:12,800
Speaker 3: Well?

2615
02:28:12,800 --> 02:28:15,800
Speaker 10: I would say that the first thing is exactly like

2616
02:28:15,920 --> 02:28:18,560
Speaker 10: we're doing now on this discussion, and like you as

2617
02:28:18,600 --> 02:28:21,920
Speaker 10: a listener listening to this conversation are doing by hearing

2618
02:28:21,959 --> 02:28:26,720
Speaker 10: from us and following this issue, encourage media research, human

2619
02:28:26,840 --> 02:28:30,360
Speaker 10: rights groups, analysts, and all others who do work in

2620
02:28:30,480 --> 02:28:33,240
Speaker 10: any of these fields to cover this issue in its

2621
02:28:33,360 --> 02:28:37,720
Speaker 10: full political and security context. Look, we can't only talk

2622
02:28:37,800 --> 02:28:40,879
Speaker 10: about North and Ew Syria when there's a crisis. ISIS

2623
02:28:40,959 --> 02:28:43,720
Speaker 10: did not come out of nowhere in twenty fourteen. The

2624
02:28:43,800 --> 02:28:46,760
Speaker 10: Turkish invasion did not come out of nowhere in twenty nineteen.

2625
02:28:47,640 --> 02:28:51,920
Speaker 10: And had we as a society and certainly our institutions

2626
02:28:51,959 --> 02:28:55,760
Speaker 10: been more informed and more aware of the root conditions

2627
02:28:56,000 --> 02:28:59,960
Speaker 10: causing these outbursts of violence, these outbursts of violence may

2628
02:29:00,120 --> 02:29:03,080
Speaker 10: not have happened, They might have been addressed before they happened.

2629
02:29:03,560 --> 02:29:05,480
Speaker 10: And so what does it mean to build that awareness?

2630
02:29:05,560 --> 02:29:07,720
Speaker 10: That means everything from writing a letter to your local

2631
02:29:07,840 --> 02:29:12,360
Speaker 10: newspaper to producing a report at your university with input

2632
02:29:12,440 --> 02:29:14,840
Speaker 10: from institutions in North East Syria, some of these local

2633
02:29:14,920 --> 02:29:17,880
Speaker 10: media and human rights organizations that we've talked about, to

2634
02:29:18,000 --> 02:29:20,480
Speaker 10: hosting an event for your community group on the state

2635
02:29:20,680 --> 02:29:25,160
Speaker 10: of this broadly defined conflict in Turkey and Iraq and

2636
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:29,000
Speaker 10: Syria in Kurdistan between the Turkish state and these Kurdish

2637
02:29:29,080 --> 02:29:31,600
Speaker 10: groups that, in addition to fighting against ISIS, have been

2638
02:29:31,640 --> 02:29:36,120
Speaker 10: struggling for autonomy, self determination, equality between men and women,

2639
02:29:36,240 --> 02:29:40,240
Speaker 10: equality of people of different religious beliefs of different ethnic backgrounds.

2640
02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:43,720
Speaker 10: Long before ISIS was on the agenda and Northeast Syria

2641
02:29:43,720 --> 02:29:46,000
Speaker 10: it was on the agenda. We at the Kurdish Peace

2642
02:29:46,040 --> 02:29:48,600
Speaker 10: Institute are always available to help you do this. You

2643
02:29:48,680 --> 02:29:50,920
Speaker 10: can reach out to us on our contact page. We

2644
02:29:51,000 --> 02:29:53,960
Speaker 10: have information on everything from submitting content of your own

2645
02:29:54,680 --> 02:29:58,080
Speaker 10: to resources for reaching out to us for media appearances.

2646
02:29:58,680 --> 02:30:00,879
Speaker 10: Of course, there's all the sources I'm mentioned as well,

2647
02:30:01,120 --> 02:30:04,080
Speaker 10: and there are other episodes of this wonderful podcast with

2648
02:30:04,240 --> 02:30:09,160
Speaker 10: very talented expert speakers and interviewers as well who've spoken

2649
02:30:09,240 --> 02:30:13,560
Speaker 10: about issues related to Syria, Turkey and Kurdistan. You can

2650
02:30:13,640 --> 02:30:18,480
Speaker 10: advocate for greater political support for the Autonomous Administration, for

2651
02:30:18,560 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 10: an end to Turkey's aggressive actions against Northeast Syria and

2652
02:30:22,240 --> 02:30:26,160
Speaker 10: its ongoing human rights violations in the occupied areas of

2653
02:30:26,360 --> 02:30:30,040
Speaker 10: Afriin and russ A Line, and for international political support

2654
02:30:30,200 --> 02:30:35,080
Speaker 10: for a democratic, just peaceful solution to the Turkish Kurdish conflict.

2655
02:30:35,760 --> 02:30:37,480
Speaker 10: This is, i think, at the end of the day,

2656
02:30:37,520 --> 02:30:40,640
Speaker 10: the root of all of these problems that we're seeing here,

2657
02:30:41,800 --> 02:30:45,320
Speaker 10: and if this conflict were to be resolved, if Turkey

2658
02:30:45,360 --> 02:30:48,400
Speaker 10: were no longer to take an aggressive militaristic approach to

2659
02:30:49,640 --> 02:30:53,000
Speaker 10: the very concept of Kurdish autonomy, the very social base

2660
02:30:53,120 --> 02:30:56,680
Speaker 10: of Kurdish communities that has the capacity to seek and

2661
02:30:56,840 --> 02:31:00,280
Speaker 10: organize for autonomy itself. This would mean an end to

2662
02:31:00,680 --> 02:31:03,960
Speaker 10: authoritarianism in Turkey, which has been leading Turkey to all

2663
02:31:04,000 --> 02:31:08,120
Speaker 10: sorts of destabilizing behavior and certainly in miserating countless Turkish citizens.

2664
02:31:08,720 --> 02:31:10,800
Speaker 10: This is one of the reasons why not only Kurds,

2665
02:31:10,879 --> 02:31:13,440
Speaker 10: but many Turkish people of all ethnicities as well have

2666
02:31:13,560 --> 02:31:16,800
Speaker 10: been fleeing Turkey to Europe and even to the United States.

2667
02:31:17,280 --> 02:31:21,640
Speaker 10: Has been the escalating persecution, poverty, and difficulty of life

2668
02:31:21,760 --> 02:31:25,520
Speaker 10: under Erdowan, which is directly connected to air Dowan's choice

2669
02:31:25,640 --> 02:31:28,680
Speaker 10: in twenty fifteen to end piece talks with the Kurdish

2670
02:31:28,760 --> 02:31:32,400
Speaker 10: movement in order to consolidate his total power over the

2671
02:31:32,480 --> 02:31:37,000
Speaker 10: state using war and far right nationalism. This would end

2672
02:31:37,360 --> 02:31:40,720
Speaker 10: not only these difficult conditions within Turkey, this persecution, this

2673
02:31:40,920 --> 02:31:44,920
Speaker 10: economic devastation, this oppression of all oppressed segments of society.

2674
02:31:45,400 --> 02:31:48,240
Speaker 10: It would end Turkey's aggressive foreign policy in the region

2675
02:31:48,280 --> 02:31:51,160
Speaker 10: as well, which would be hugely important for allowing North

2676
02:31:51,200 --> 02:31:54,520
Speaker 10: East Syria the stability it means to put ISIS members

2677
02:31:54,560 --> 02:31:58,080
Speaker 10: on trial, hold them accountable for what they've done, begin

2678
02:31:58,280 --> 02:32:02,240
Speaker 10: to rebuild, give post isis communities of future. Allow these

2679
02:32:02,320 --> 02:32:04,920
Speaker 10: people who have suffered so much to defeat this group,

2680
02:32:05,440 --> 02:32:08,440
Speaker 10: of course for themselves, but really for all humanity to

2681
02:32:08,560 --> 02:32:11,400
Speaker 10: be able to build new lives, recover and have a

2682
02:32:11,520 --> 02:32:14,960
Speaker 10: say in their future, and by doing that, to pursue

2683
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:18,480
Speaker 10: a political solution to the Syrian conflict. Right now, northe

2684
02:32:18,480 --> 02:32:22,600
Speaker 10: Assyria is the only major part of Syria outside of

2685
02:32:23,160 --> 02:32:28,720
Speaker 10: government control that has a system that is semi functional

2686
02:32:29,400 --> 02:32:31,440
Speaker 10: despite all of the setbacks of the war and the

2687
02:32:31,520 --> 02:32:34,320
Speaker 10: economic crisis, which again could be a whole other episode,

2688
02:32:34,720 --> 02:32:37,880
Speaker 10: which has empowered women, which has empowered different ethnic and

2689
02:32:37,920 --> 02:32:40,600
Speaker 10: religious communities, They could be part of a political solution

2690
02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:44,120
Speaker 10: in Syria. Turkey's war on the Kurdish movement, you know,

2691
02:32:44,280 --> 02:32:47,080
Speaker 10: is preventing that. This goes into a lot of challenges

2692
02:32:47,120 --> 02:32:50,240
Speaker 10: in Iraq as well, with increasing Turkish military operations. They're

2693
02:32:50,320 --> 02:32:52,920
Speaker 10: related to the conflict that have made life extremely difficult

2694
02:32:52,959 --> 02:32:56,160
Speaker 10: for many different Iraqi communities. But again, all of this,

2695
02:32:57,040 --> 02:33:01,240
Speaker 10: this conflict, you could argue, is the largest and most

2696
02:33:01,320 --> 02:33:03,880
Speaker 10: impactful and certainly one of the longest running. You know,

2697
02:33:04,000 --> 02:33:07,200
Speaker 10: for forty years now of the modern Middle East. It

2698
02:33:07,320 --> 02:33:11,080
Speaker 10: is an international conflict. The United States European governments, like

2699
02:33:11,200 --> 02:33:13,960
Speaker 10: we saw with the example of the US and European

2700
02:33:14,040 --> 02:33:17,400
Speaker 10: position on NATO accession and the concessions to Turkey made there,

2701
02:33:18,000 --> 02:33:21,920
Speaker 10: have been very involved in supporting militarily and politically Turkey's

2702
02:33:21,920 --> 02:33:26,200
Speaker 10: efforts to resolve this conflict militarily and to deny the

2703
02:33:26,280 --> 02:33:30,120
Speaker 10: Kurdish people their rights by force. And we you listening

2704
02:33:30,160 --> 02:33:33,279
Speaker 10: to this are communities in all of these different countries

2705
02:33:33,320 --> 02:33:35,680
Speaker 10: that have a stake in this conflict. We're the ones

2706
02:33:35,720 --> 02:33:37,640
Speaker 10: you can change that. And you can do that on

2707
02:33:37,720 --> 02:33:40,160
Speaker 10: two different tracks. So One, you can build awareness in

2708
02:33:40,200 --> 02:33:43,400
Speaker 10: your own community. You can build connections between your community

2709
02:33:43,520 --> 02:33:46,920
Speaker 10: groups and institutions in North East Syria, in Turkey, in

2710
02:33:47,000 --> 02:33:50,039
Speaker 10: different places impacted by this conflict in order to find

2711
02:33:50,080 --> 02:33:53,520
Speaker 10: ways that you can help respond to specific needs, work

2712
02:33:53,560 --> 02:33:57,119
Speaker 10: on specific projects together. And two, in the long run,

2713
02:33:57,680 --> 02:34:01,440
Speaker 10: use those connections, your knowledge you gain from those connections,

2714
02:34:01,640 --> 02:34:04,279
Speaker 10: the resources you create as you reach out to the media,

2715
02:34:04,840 --> 02:34:08,240
Speaker 10: as you meet different people working on this, to reach

2716
02:34:08,360 --> 02:34:12,040
Speaker 10: out to decision makers and show this is an issue

2717
02:34:12,120 --> 02:34:15,200
Speaker 10: that their constituents care about. This is an issue that's

2718
02:34:15,320 --> 02:34:18,039
Speaker 10: not something that governments can do without a response from

2719
02:34:18,160 --> 02:34:21,160
Speaker 10: public opinion. And this is an issue where there is

2720
02:34:21,520 --> 02:34:25,680
Speaker 10: organized pressure to change policy, you know, in favor of peace,

2721
02:34:25,840 --> 02:34:29,400
Speaker 10: in favor of stability, in favor of political solutions. Because

2722
02:34:29,400 --> 02:34:31,480
Speaker 10: when we do that, and there's lots of examples of

2723
02:34:31,560 --> 02:34:34,800
Speaker 10: how different communities and organizations have done that, when we

2724
02:34:34,879 --> 02:34:37,240
Speaker 10: do that on a large enough scale, we're not only

2725
02:34:37,440 --> 02:34:41,840
Speaker 10: addressing a humanitarian problem, we're not only contributing to peace

2726
02:34:41,920 --> 02:34:44,400
Speaker 10: and stability in the region. But at the end of

2727
02:34:44,440 --> 02:34:47,720
Speaker 10: the day, we can find solutions for these conflicts that

2728
02:34:47,920 --> 02:34:51,240
Speaker 10: mean that there won't be another rise of Isis, there

2729
02:34:51,280 --> 02:34:54,880
Speaker 10: won't be another Turkish invasion and occupation of northern Syria,

2730
02:34:55,520 --> 02:34:59,320
Speaker 10: and there will be models for political and social transformation

2731
02:35:00,040 --> 02:35:02,240
Speaker 10: that can help us end conflicts in other parts of

2732
02:35:02,280 --> 02:35:05,080
Speaker 10: the world as well. So there's lots of ways to contribute.

2733
02:35:05,400 --> 02:35:08,520
Speaker 10: I hope you're inspired to do so. And I think

2734
02:35:08,720 --> 02:35:12,440
Speaker 10: that just listening to this conversation, hearing about what's going on,

2735
02:35:12,680 --> 02:35:15,040
Speaker 10: and thinking about what you can do, that's already the

2736
02:35:15,080 --> 02:35:17,959
Speaker 10: first step. You're already there, and that's the most important thing.

2737
02:35:18,680 --> 02:35:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, great, thanks Bigin. That's a really good I think

2738
02:35:21,360 --> 02:35:23,960
Speaker 2: place to end because it gives some people something to do.

2739
02:35:24,200 --> 02:35:26,720
Speaker 2: I think far too often, like it's really easy and

2740
02:35:26,760 --> 02:35:28,560
Speaker 2: the immedia to just point at something and say it's

2741
02:35:28,600 --> 02:35:32,520
Speaker 2: bad and then walk away and not sort of leave

2742
02:35:32,560 --> 02:35:35,680
Speaker 2: people a way to help or do something. So I

2743
02:35:35,800 --> 02:35:37,720
Speaker 2: really appreciate you doing that. Is there any where people

2744
02:35:37,720 --> 02:35:40,800
Speaker 2: can find you on the internet, So you can find.

2745
02:35:40,680 --> 02:35:43,920
Speaker 10: All of my research and writing at Kurdishpeace dot org,

2746
02:35:44,480 --> 02:35:46,360
Speaker 10: as well as all of the research and writing of

2747
02:35:46,480 --> 02:35:49,480
Speaker 10: our brilliant contributors, many of whom are on the ground

2748
02:35:49,600 --> 02:35:52,800
Speaker 10: in Northern Syria, themselves in other parts of the region,

2749
02:35:53,000 --> 02:35:56,080
Speaker 10: or who have extensively traveled to that region for their work.

2750
02:35:56,959 --> 02:35:59,480
Speaker 10: I encourage you to read all of our content, and

2751
02:36:00,080 --> 02:36:03,760
Speaker 10: you follow our social media pages as well at Kurdish

2752
02:36:03,840 --> 02:36:07,480
Speaker 10: piece org on Twitter, and yes, you can read not

2753
02:36:07,600 --> 02:36:09,000
Speaker 10: only my work but the work of a lot of

2754
02:36:09,040 --> 02:36:12,160
Speaker 10: other really great people. But I'm very lucky to collaborate.

2755
02:36:11,680 --> 02:36:14,800
Speaker 2: With amazing Thanks so much for your time, Megan, Thank you.

2756
02:36:14,959 --> 02:36:15,240
Speaker 10: James.

2757
02:36:31,080 --> 02:36:34,680
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's just me James today and I'm joined

2758
02:36:34,680 --> 02:36:39,360
Speaker 2: today by James Cordero and Jacqueline Ariano. They're both from

2759
02:36:39,440 --> 02:36:43,480
Speaker 2: Border Kindness, which is a group that does border aid

2760
02:36:44,320 --> 02:36:47,800
Speaker 2: chiefly like water drops and support to keep people alive

2761
02:36:47,959 --> 02:36:51,040
Speaker 2: as they're making their journey across the desert here in

2762
02:36:51,160 --> 02:36:53,880
Speaker 2: San Diego. Is that a fair characterization of what you

2763
02:36:53,920 --> 02:36:54,240
Speaker 2: guys do.

2764
02:36:54,959 --> 02:37:00,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, we do work all across the border in California. Currently,

2765
02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:03,480
Speaker 4: some of us we're based out of San Diego. What

2766
02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:08,280
Speaker 4: we do are water drops in eastern San Diego County

2767
02:37:08,959 --> 02:37:10,200
Speaker 4: and Imperial Counties.

2768
02:37:10,600 --> 02:37:10,760
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2769
02:37:10,800 --> 02:37:10,959
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2770
02:37:11,000 --> 02:37:15,040
Speaker 12: The organization is based primarily in Mexicali, Baja California, on

2771
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:17,279
Speaker 12: the Mexico side, and that's where it was founded.

2772
02:37:17,720 --> 02:37:19,039
Speaker 2: Okay, corresponds to the.

2773
02:37:19,120 --> 02:37:22,120
Speaker 12: Arrival of the migrant caravans in twenty eighteen. We've personally

2774
02:37:22,200 --> 02:37:25,320
Speaker 12: been doing drops since twenty sixteen, but we brought the

2775
02:37:25,400 --> 02:37:27,640
Speaker 12: program over to Border Kindness a little over a year ago,

2776
02:37:28,560 --> 02:37:31,000
Speaker 12: and we operate programs on both sides of the border.

2777
02:37:31,520 --> 02:37:33,680
Speaker 12: Primarily James and I are involved with water Drop, but

2778
02:37:33,800 --> 02:37:37,760
Speaker 12: we also as an organization, have a school on the

2779
02:37:37,840 --> 02:37:41,080
Speaker 12: Mexico side. We have operated in a pro bono clinic

2780
02:37:41,160 --> 02:37:44,959
Speaker 12: on the Mexican side, and currently we're providing direct aid

2781
02:37:45,280 --> 02:37:49,000
Speaker 12: with the families of migrant farm workers in Imperial and

2782
02:37:49,360 --> 02:37:50,199
Speaker 12: Riverside Counties.

2783
02:37:50,720 --> 02:37:53,320
Speaker 2: Nice. Yeah, that's a lot of very important things. I

2784
02:37:53,400 --> 02:37:57,080
Speaker 2: don't get enough money or attention. So you said you

2785
02:37:57,160 --> 02:37:59,440
Speaker 2: started about a year ago. I bet you bet. You've

2786
02:37:59,480 --> 02:38:03,480
Speaker 2: been doing the border drops for what's that seven sometime

2787
02:38:03,600 --> 02:38:08,160
Speaker 2: seven years? Yeah, since twenty sixteen, And I wonder like

2788
02:38:09,160 --> 02:38:11,879
Speaker 2: if we could start by and we can get into

2789
02:38:11,879 --> 02:38:15,440
Speaker 2: some of the details later. But I've been reporting on

2790
02:38:15,520 --> 02:38:18,440
Speaker 2: the border for that long and there certainly have been

2791
02:38:18,560 --> 02:38:22,400
Speaker 2: notable changes, And I wonder what changes you've seen, Like

2792
02:38:22,920 --> 02:38:25,400
Speaker 2: we go back to like pre twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen,

2793
02:38:25,480 --> 02:38:29,560
Speaker 2: like that was before the whole wall shenanigans, So like,

2794
02:38:30,040 --> 02:38:32,760
Speaker 2: do you guys want to describe what changes you've seen

2795
02:38:32,879 --> 02:38:36,840
Speaker 2: in patterns of migration, and like I guess how safe

2796
02:38:36,959 --> 02:38:40,680
Speaker 2: that journey is or isn't, and how that's changed.

2797
02:38:43,520 --> 02:38:49,120
Speaker 4: Well, as far as patterns, I think it's definitely increased,

2798
02:38:49,840 --> 02:38:56,200
Speaker 4: definitely by the as far as seeing the amounts of

2799
02:38:57,640 --> 02:39:02,520
Speaker 4: supplies being used, the traces of you know, migrants crossing

2800
02:39:02,640 --> 02:39:07,120
Speaker 4: through in the desert in the mountains, seeing the amount

2801
02:39:07,280 --> 02:39:12,800
Speaker 4: of border patrol apprehensions and interactions with people that cross,

2802
02:39:14,080 --> 02:39:18,240
Speaker 4: and the overall militarization of the border.

2803
02:39:18,800 --> 02:39:21,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, And I think like as far one of

2804
02:39:21,959 --> 02:39:24,240
Speaker 12: the biggest changes that we've seen on the border overall,

2805
02:39:24,440 --> 02:39:26,920
Speaker 12: and that has reflected in the water Drop as well,

2806
02:39:27,879 --> 02:39:30,240
Speaker 12: is a change in the demographics of people that are

2807
02:39:30,280 --> 02:39:32,920
Speaker 12: coming through. Even as recently as when we started in

2808
02:39:32,959 --> 02:39:38,400
Speaker 12: twenty sixteen, there were much more of like the trend

2809
02:39:39,360 --> 02:39:42,920
Speaker 12: that was generally kind of like stereotypically the case of

2810
02:39:43,000 --> 02:39:45,840
Speaker 12: like who was crossing, which was men of origin of

2811
02:39:45,959 --> 02:39:49,039
Speaker 12: working age crossing to work and send send money back

2812
02:39:49,080 --> 02:39:49,720
Speaker 12: to their families.

2813
02:39:50,160 --> 02:39:51,880
Speaker 11: Yeah, that's obviously.

2814
02:39:51,480 --> 02:39:55,800
Speaker 12: Still a large part of who is coming through, but

2815
02:39:56,040 --> 02:40:03,840
Speaker 12: in the most recent three to five years especially, the

2816
02:40:04,080 --> 02:40:07,080
Speaker 12: demographics are changing not just by country of origin to

2817
02:40:07,160 --> 02:40:09,720
Speaker 12: include all over the world and reflecting like this global

2818
02:40:09,800 --> 02:40:13,960
Speaker 12: migration crisis that's going on, but also the reasons and

2819
02:40:14,200 --> 02:40:15,960
Speaker 12: like the desperation is changing.

2820
02:40:16,080 --> 02:40:18,520
Speaker 7: So now it's not just like economic migration.

2821
02:40:18,920 --> 02:40:24,320
Speaker 12: There is asylum seekers, refugees, and it is just changing

2822
02:40:24,480 --> 02:40:27,440
Speaker 12: in tone of like why they're migrating and in what

2823
02:40:27,560 --> 02:40:28,440
Speaker 12: ways they're migrating.

2824
02:40:29,200 --> 02:40:32,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, I've noticed that. And like as the

2825
02:40:33,000 --> 02:40:35,199
Speaker 2: climate continues to change, right, like more and more people

2826
02:40:35,240 --> 02:40:37,080
Speaker 2: come from those countries and you've seen that too that

2827
02:40:37,120 --> 02:40:41,880
Speaker 2: are most heavily impacted by climate change. Yeah, yeah, and

2828
02:40:42,040 --> 02:40:44,080
Speaker 2: that makes a journey as it gets harder and harder

2829
02:40:44,080 --> 02:40:45,920
Speaker 2: in the desert, like that makes a journey more and

2830
02:40:46,040 --> 02:40:46,760
Speaker 2: more perilous.

2831
02:40:46,840 --> 02:40:50,080
Speaker 12: I guess they've come from farther too, and they're the

2832
02:40:50,200 --> 02:40:53,720
Speaker 12: least sometimes like not at all familiar with the weather,

2833
02:40:54,000 --> 02:40:57,120
Speaker 12: with the terrain, what they're up against with like how

2834
02:40:57,200 --> 02:41:00,600
Speaker 12: you have to move in border town. If you're not

2835
02:41:00,680 --> 02:41:02,440
Speaker 12: from a border town, you don't really know how to

2836
02:41:02,560 --> 02:41:05,240
Speaker 12: move and who to trust or more importantly, who not

2837
02:41:05,320 --> 02:41:08,480
Speaker 12: to trust. Yes, yeah, and the people there's a lot

2838
02:41:08,520 --> 02:41:11,520
Speaker 12: of pitfalls to just arriving at the border, even from

2839
02:41:11,760 --> 02:41:15,680
Speaker 12: like internal migration, like within Mexico, people arrive to the

2840
02:41:15,720 --> 02:41:17,880
Speaker 12: border and don't really know how to operate like the

2841
02:41:18,000 --> 02:41:22,760
Speaker 12: day to day there, and it's really made an already

2842
02:41:22,840 --> 02:41:24,359
Speaker 12: incredibly dangerous situation.

2843
02:41:24,240 --> 02:41:26,240
Speaker 7: Like just just totally perilous.

2844
02:41:26,920 --> 02:41:31,119
Speaker 4: As more people have migrated from different countries around the world,

2845
02:41:31,560 --> 02:41:35,480
Speaker 4: you're also seeing people who have been on that journey

2846
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:38,560
Speaker 4: just to get to the United States line for longer

2847
02:41:38,600 --> 02:41:40,680
Speaker 4: amounts of time that you know, instead of maybe just

2848
02:41:40,800 --> 02:41:43,600
Speaker 4: weeks or a month, you're talking about months on months

2849
02:41:44,080 --> 02:41:47,560
Speaker 4: that people have been traveling you know, by foot, by train,

2850
02:41:47,720 --> 02:41:50,760
Speaker 4: by bus, you know, sometimes by plane, however, they can

2851
02:41:51,200 --> 02:41:57,240
Speaker 4: and we've seen, you know, we've seen like invoices for

2852
02:41:57,440 --> 02:42:01,320
Speaker 4: like hotel stays that people traveling from Turkey came and

2853
02:42:01,360 --> 02:42:06,240
Speaker 4: they stayed like Inkan Koum for like a month. So

2854
02:42:06,520 --> 02:42:10,720
Speaker 4: like I mean, people are gone from their from their homelands,

2855
02:42:11,040 --> 02:42:14,120
Speaker 4: you know, longer amounts of time now that you know,

2856
02:42:14,400 --> 02:42:17,520
Speaker 4: isn't a comfortable thing. So it's not like you can

2857
02:42:17,920 --> 02:42:20,440
Speaker 4: ax and not like you can you know, rest and

2858
02:42:20,720 --> 02:42:23,080
Speaker 4: you know mentally and physically everything like that. So it's

2859
02:42:23,520 --> 02:42:26,640
Speaker 4: definitely making that part harder for people crossing.

2860
02:42:27,200 --> 02:42:30,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, Like I'm seeing more and more migrants

2861
02:42:30,280 --> 02:42:34,240
Speaker 2: from from Africa and like they are very much like

2862
02:42:34,400 --> 02:42:37,400
Speaker 2: it's the community for them is hard to find sometimes,

2863
02:42:37,560 --> 02:42:41,520
Speaker 2: like you know that, like there are different spaces for them,

2864
02:42:41,760 --> 02:42:44,840
Speaker 2: and like they they end up in like distinct spaces

2865
02:42:44,920 --> 02:42:47,800
Speaker 2: from from other like migrant too, coming from other areas,

2866
02:42:47,840 --> 02:42:49,360
Speaker 2: and I know it can be very perilous for them,

2867
02:42:49,560 --> 02:42:52,040
Speaker 2: like you say, just just moving around border towns and

2868
02:42:52,200 --> 02:42:57,440
Speaker 2: navigating the pitfalls of that. Yeah, it's it's becoming like

2869
02:42:57,520 --> 02:42:59,280
Speaker 2: a more and more difficult and I guess could have

2870
02:42:59,360 --> 02:43:03,320
Speaker 2: complicated issue, but I think what's not particularly complicated is that, Like,

2871
02:43:03,440 --> 02:43:05,440
Speaker 2: no one should have to walk across the desert without water,

2872
02:43:05,560 --> 02:43:09,040
Speaker 2: right like that, It's it's pretty basic. So maybe we

2873
02:43:09,120 --> 02:43:13,240
Speaker 2: could go through what a water drop is and like

2874
02:43:13,480 --> 02:43:15,200
Speaker 2: what just if we could walk through, like you know,

2875
02:43:15,280 --> 02:43:18,119
Speaker 2: how far you guys walk, What you're leaving at there,

2876
02:43:18,200 --> 02:43:20,200
Speaker 2: what you find that people take, what you find that

2877
02:43:20,240 --> 02:43:23,480
Speaker 2: they need in their journeys. And you were talking about

2878
02:43:23,520 --> 02:43:26,039
Speaker 2: the receipts. I found tons of those and plane tickets

2879
02:43:26,080 --> 02:43:28,640
Speaker 2: and stuff like the things that you find that help

2880
02:43:28,720 --> 02:43:32,359
Speaker 2: you understand how better to help people. I guess.

2881
02:43:36,240 --> 02:43:38,920
Speaker 7: You want to talk about like how far the drops

2882
02:43:38,959 --> 02:43:40,320
Speaker 7: are generally and all of that.

2883
02:43:40,640 --> 02:43:44,199
Speaker 4: Yeah, so right now, it just depends on the season,

2884
02:43:44,280 --> 02:43:49,480
Speaker 4: the weather, you know, the length of the drops we hike,

2885
02:43:49,959 --> 02:43:52,160
Speaker 4: you know, a lot of our drops. We also utilize

2886
02:43:52,760 --> 02:43:55,960
Speaker 4: four x fours to get us closer to areas to

2887
02:43:56,000 --> 02:43:58,320
Speaker 4: start our hikes, so we don't have to walk even

2888
02:43:58,360 --> 02:44:01,720
Speaker 4: more miles. That helps us out in you know, being

2889
02:44:01,760 --> 02:44:04,600
Speaker 4: able to carry more supplies you with less walking in

2890
02:44:04,680 --> 02:44:08,760
Speaker 4: some areas. But when it's cooler times and the temperatures

2891
02:44:08,800 --> 02:44:11,600
Speaker 4: are you know, below eighty degrees, you know, we can

2892
02:44:11,720 --> 02:44:14,960
Speaker 4: hike you know anywhere up to I think the max

2893
02:44:15,080 --> 02:44:21,440
Speaker 4: that we did was like just about twenty. But on

2894
02:44:21,600 --> 02:44:24,840
Speaker 4: the average, you know, the cool weather hikes will do,

2895
02:44:25,760 --> 02:44:29,280
Speaker 4: you know, right around ten miles or so, and then

2896
02:44:29,320 --> 02:44:32,920
Speaker 4: when it gets hot and the desert gets really hot

2897
02:44:32,959 --> 02:44:34,600
Speaker 4: out there, you know, like over one hundred and ten

2898
02:44:34,640 --> 02:44:37,840
Speaker 4: degrees on a constant basis and starting to get over

2899
02:44:37,879 --> 02:44:40,680
Speaker 4: one hundred and twenty degrees, you know, we can maybe

2900
02:44:40,760 --> 02:44:45,400
Speaker 4: do about five miles by foot. We've kind of ran

2901
02:44:45,480 --> 02:44:49,320
Speaker 4: a trial and air this season as far as trying

2902
02:44:49,360 --> 02:44:52,080
Speaker 4: to push further to see how far we can go,

2903
02:44:52,840 --> 02:44:56,600
Speaker 4: and we attempted seven miles and that I mean we

2904
02:44:56,760 --> 02:44:59,800
Speaker 4: all were gassed right around the five mile mark. So

2905
02:45:00,440 --> 02:45:03,879
Speaker 4: we have to set limits because not only is the distance,

2906
02:45:03,959 --> 02:45:07,960
Speaker 4: but the time spent underneath the sun without shade, and

2907
02:45:08,040 --> 02:45:11,280
Speaker 4: that exposure is you know, what drives the internal body

2908
02:45:11,320 --> 02:45:12,959
Speaker 4: temperature up and everything like that, and if you don't

2909
02:45:12,959 --> 02:45:14,440
Speaker 4: have a chance to cool down, that's when your body

2910
02:45:14,480 --> 02:45:17,280
Speaker 4: starts to wear out. You get heat exhaustion, and you know,

2911
02:45:17,320 --> 02:45:19,600
Speaker 4: we want to avoid heat stroke at all costs, and

2912
02:45:19,640 --> 02:45:22,080
Speaker 4: we're trying to make sure everyone's safety is accounted for,

2913
02:45:22,680 --> 02:45:23,960
Speaker 4: so we have to kind of cap that in the

2914
02:45:24,080 --> 02:45:25,680
Speaker 4: in the summertime to like five miles.

2915
02:45:26,040 --> 02:45:28,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, sure, we have to definitely make pushes in

2916
02:45:29,040 --> 02:45:31,280
Speaker 12: the winter to stockpile the areas that are just simply

2917
02:45:31,360 --> 02:45:35,520
Speaker 12: not accessible in the summer months. And the strategic and

2918
02:45:35,640 --> 02:45:39,040
Speaker 12: like paying attention to what are entry points and can

2919
02:45:39,120 --> 02:45:41,039
Speaker 12: we hit those entry points or exit points.

2920
02:45:41,080 --> 02:45:42,279
Speaker 7: So maybe we can't.

2921
02:45:44,000 --> 02:45:47,959
Speaker 12: Really access a route throughout its entirety, but we can

2922
02:45:48,280 --> 02:45:53,080
Speaker 12: hit certain points of it more safely as a team

2923
02:45:53,320 --> 02:45:57,680
Speaker 12: during these like incredibly hot months. But we leave supplies

2924
02:45:57,720 --> 02:46:00,920
Speaker 12: of water, food, and protective clothing. And the protective clothing

2925
02:46:01,040 --> 02:46:03,720
Speaker 12: varies depending on season. So I mean a lot of

2926
02:46:03,720 --> 02:46:06,280
Speaker 12: people don't really take into consideration how cold it gets

2927
02:46:07,440 --> 02:46:10,400
Speaker 12: in these areas. It gets wall below freezing in the winter.

2928
02:46:11,000 --> 02:46:13,359
Speaker 12: In the mountains of East San Diego County, it snows.

2929
02:46:15,560 --> 02:46:17,600
Speaker 12: You know, some drops have gotten snowed out. We haven't

2930
02:46:17,640 --> 02:46:20,600
Speaker 12: been able to complete them because of the snow. And

2931
02:46:21,680 --> 02:46:25,200
Speaker 12: so the protective clothing varies in the summer. It's things

2932
02:46:25,360 --> 02:46:31,000
Speaker 12: like bandanas, cooling towels, hats, socks we leave throughout the year.

2933
02:46:32,200 --> 02:46:40,120
Speaker 12: People's footwear not being appropriate almost almost always. Yeah, blister

2934
02:46:40,280 --> 02:46:42,400
Speaker 12: can be a death sentence out there. So if you

2935
02:46:42,440 --> 02:46:45,039
Speaker 12: get a blister and you're not able to keep up

2936
02:46:45,080 --> 02:46:47,039
Speaker 12: with your group, there's a really good chance that you're

2937
02:46:47,040 --> 02:46:50,119
Speaker 12: going to get left. So something like having dry socks

2938
02:46:50,160 --> 02:46:52,760
Speaker 12: to change into can very well save somebody's life. So

2939
02:46:52,840 --> 02:46:55,640
Speaker 12: we leave socks throughout the year, pop top cans of

2940
02:46:55,680 --> 02:46:56,200
Speaker 12: food and.

2941
02:46:56,360 --> 02:46:57,040
Speaker 6: Of course water.

2942
02:46:57,600 --> 02:47:05,880
Speaker 4: In the wintertime, we leave sweatshirts, beanie like mittens, gloves, scarves, jackets,

2943
02:47:06,000 --> 02:47:12,120
Speaker 4: sometimes puffy jackets, sometimes blankets, you know, stuff to keep

2944
02:47:12,240 --> 02:47:15,920
Speaker 4: people warm when the temperatures you know, can be freezing

2945
02:47:16,080 --> 02:47:18,240
Speaker 4: for you know, most of the day. You know, in

2946
02:47:18,360 --> 02:47:21,040
Speaker 4: those you know, harsh months of like January and February

2947
02:47:21,120 --> 02:47:25,000
Speaker 4: where eastern Sandiwo County gets the like the winter storms,

2948
02:47:25,520 --> 02:47:28,640
Speaker 4: the freezing cold, you know, when roads get shut down,

2949
02:47:28,680 --> 02:47:31,360
Speaker 4: we can't even access so as Jacqueline mentioned, you know,

2950
02:47:31,959 --> 02:47:35,200
Speaker 4: when it is cooler, we try to go as much

2951
02:47:35,240 --> 02:47:37,800
Speaker 4: as we can, as far as we can to stockpile

2952
02:47:37,879 --> 02:47:42,000
Speaker 4: as much as possible for when the weather prohibits us

2953
02:47:42,040 --> 02:47:42,959
Speaker 4: from doing so otherwise.

2954
02:47:43,640 --> 02:47:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just give people a sense of like the

2955
02:47:45,640 --> 02:47:49,000
Speaker 2: temperature swings, Like I've been in the mountains down by

2956
02:47:49,080 --> 02:47:52,440
Speaker 2: the border at like twenty degrees fahrenheit, which is like

2957
02:47:53,040 --> 02:47:57,959
Speaker 2: minus ten ish celsius, I think, And yeah, also at

2958
02:47:58,000 --> 02:48:00,680
Speaker 2: one hundred and twenty, which is like almost fifty celsius,

2959
02:48:00,800 --> 02:48:03,120
Speaker 2: and so you can they didn't swing that much in

2960
02:48:03,240 --> 02:48:06,199
Speaker 2: one day. But there are days when it's above forty

2961
02:48:06,240 --> 02:48:08,680
Speaker 2: degrees celsius and also below freezing in the same day.

2962
02:48:08,879 --> 02:48:09,600
Speaker 4: Like it's.

2963
02:48:10,959 --> 02:48:14,000
Speaker 2: It can be really. Yeah, it's a perilous place. It's

2964
02:48:14,000 --> 02:48:15,920
Speaker 2: that's why people don't live there as a rule, Like

2965
02:48:16,200 --> 02:48:21,040
Speaker 2: it's not a place that's kind to people. So I wonder,

2966
02:48:21,320 --> 02:48:23,840
Speaker 2: like a lot of people, I know, we did a

2967
02:48:23,959 --> 02:48:26,640
Speaker 2: series on title forty two. We spoke to a lot

2968
02:48:26,680 --> 02:48:28,120
Speaker 2: of people, and a lot of people reached out and

2969
02:48:28,160 --> 02:48:31,280
Speaker 2: they like they want to help, and I understand that

2970
02:48:32,040 --> 02:48:34,320
Speaker 2: the border I think for a lot of people, it's

2971
02:48:34,440 --> 02:48:37,520
Speaker 2: like I think reporting on the borders as a rule

2972
02:48:37,640 --> 02:48:40,720
Speaker 2: is not great, like that we tend to see migrants

2973
02:48:40,760 --> 02:48:43,840
Speaker 2: as numbers and not as people a lot when when

2974
02:48:44,120 --> 02:48:46,200
Speaker 2: people report on the border, right, and that that's kind

2975
02:48:46,240 --> 02:48:48,720
Speaker 2: of it happens with with more liberal outlets as well

2976
02:48:48,760 --> 02:48:53,320
Speaker 2: as more right wing outlets. But I wonder, like a

2977
02:48:53,760 --> 02:48:56,040
Speaker 2: how people who aren't in town, Like if you're not

2978
02:48:56,200 --> 02:48:58,000
Speaker 2: in if you don't live in the border lands, right,

2979
02:48:58,800 --> 02:49:00,600
Speaker 2: it's so you live in the middle of them America, Like,

2980
02:49:01,080 --> 02:49:03,600
Speaker 2: how can they help? What can they do to kind

2981
02:49:03,640 --> 02:49:07,120
Speaker 2: of support the prices that you're doing making this horrible thing?

2982
02:49:07,120 --> 02:49:07,760
Speaker 2: It will kind of.

2983
02:49:10,760 --> 02:49:15,280
Speaker 12: We have on all of our social media and as

2984
02:49:15,360 --> 02:49:18,119
Speaker 12: well as on our website ways that people can help.

2985
02:49:19,760 --> 02:49:23,600
Speaker 12: We have wish lists for items if people help want

2986
02:49:23,600 --> 02:49:26,720
Speaker 12: to contribute in that way, and that's literally like contributing

2987
02:49:26,760 --> 02:49:31,480
Speaker 12: the items that we leave. We also have donation links,

2988
02:49:31,560 --> 02:49:34,440
Speaker 12: so if people want to help financially, that goes a

2989
02:49:34,720 --> 02:49:39,800
Speaker 12: huge way in order to facilitate everything that we do.

2990
02:49:41,120 --> 02:49:45,960
Speaker 12: It's i mean, gas is incredibly expensive to the supplies

2991
02:49:46,000 --> 02:49:47,720
Speaker 12: that we don't get donated by a wish list have

2992
02:49:47,800 --> 02:49:51,160
Speaker 12: to be purchased, that sort of thing. So providing material

2993
02:49:51,360 --> 02:49:55,080
Speaker 12: aid is one way of contributing. And then aside from that,

2994
02:49:55,920 --> 02:50:00,440
Speaker 12: I think just following along with this work and sharing

2995
02:50:00,520 --> 02:50:02,959
Speaker 12: it and changing the conversation because, like as you said,

2996
02:50:03,280 --> 02:50:08,640
Speaker 12: reporting on the border can be really tricky. People tend

2997
02:50:08,720 --> 02:50:11,440
Speaker 12: to not just utilize migrants, but utilize the border as

2998
02:50:11,480 --> 02:50:14,600
Speaker 12: a region in order to have talking points for either

2999
02:50:14,680 --> 02:50:17,320
Speaker 12: like media outlets or people campaigns or that sort of thing,

3000
02:50:17,959 --> 02:50:20,160
Speaker 12: and the border gets treated as sort of like its

3001
02:50:20,240 --> 02:50:25,400
Speaker 12: own foreign area that's not related to either country, like

3002
02:50:25,440 --> 02:50:28,680
Speaker 12: nobody wants to take responsibility for it. And you know,

3003
02:50:28,879 --> 02:50:31,320
Speaker 12: residents of the United States also are complicit in that

3004
02:50:31,480 --> 02:50:32,920
Speaker 12: because they don't really they just.

3005
02:50:32,959 --> 02:50:34,080
Speaker 7: Talk about the border.

3006
02:50:34,200 --> 02:50:36,240
Speaker 12: They don't say like, this is something that's happening in

3007
02:50:36,360 --> 02:50:41,400
Speaker 12: my country. So I think sharing and discussing and becoming

3008
02:50:41,480 --> 02:50:44,040
Speaker 12: informed of what's going on, and also feeling like that

3009
02:50:44,200 --> 02:50:48,000
Speaker 12: kinship and ownership of like, hey, this is happening. I

3010
02:50:48,080 --> 02:50:50,360
Speaker 12: mean for people, it doesn't have to be as far

3011
02:50:50,400 --> 02:50:51,520
Speaker 12: as like the middle of the country. A lot of

3012
02:50:51,560 --> 02:50:53,360
Speaker 12: people in San Diego don't eat, really engage in.

3013
02:50:53,440 --> 02:50:55,120
Speaker 2: Yere, they don't don't bother.

3014
02:50:55,480 --> 02:50:57,440
Speaker 12: You know, it feels like so far away, even though

3015
02:50:57,440 --> 02:51:01,959
Speaker 12: it's like twenty minutes away. Meanwhile, peopeople are dropping dead

3016
02:51:02,920 --> 02:51:05,960
Speaker 12: so close to where people live and they choose to

3017
02:51:06,080 --> 02:51:06,959
Speaker 12: turn a blind eye.

3018
02:51:07,000 --> 02:51:07,680
Speaker 7: So I think.

3019
02:51:09,680 --> 02:51:13,360
Speaker 12: Kind of demystifying that for ourselves and sharing in that

3020
02:51:13,760 --> 02:51:15,039
Speaker 12: it goes a long way as well.

3021
02:51:15,720 --> 02:51:18,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, I think that's that's very true. It's always

3022
02:51:18,760 --> 02:51:23,360
Speaker 2: amazing to me, like how twenty eighteen or the other

3023
02:51:23,400 --> 02:51:24,920
Speaker 2: big one I guess would be the end of title

3024
02:51:25,000 --> 02:51:27,760
Speaker 2: forty two, which was this year in May, like people

3025
02:51:27,879 --> 02:51:30,520
Speaker 2: will become more aware of what's happening and turn up

3026
02:51:30,560 --> 02:51:34,320
Speaker 2: and like it's so very radicalizing from other people in

3027
02:51:34,400 --> 02:51:37,120
Speaker 2: a positive way, like get engaged m in a way

3028
02:51:37,160 --> 02:51:40,840
Speaker 2: they haven't been engaged before. But it's I know, it's

3029
02:51:40,959 --> 02:51:43,840
Speaker 2: like it shouldn't be, like we shouldn't be saying we

3030
02:51:43,920 --> 02:51:47,200
Speaker 2: ever get used to how like cruel our border infrastructure

3031
02:51:47,280 --> 02:51:49,160
Speaker 2: is and what it does for us, But people are

3032
02:51:49,240 --> 02:51:55,280
Speaker 2: just blown away every time. Absolutely, Yeah, but I think

3033
02:51:55,280 --> 02:51:57,520
Speaker 2: you're right, like witnessing it is very important, even if

3034
02:51:57,560 --> 02:51:59,600
Speaker 2: you know you can't done it financially, if you can't

3035
02:51:59,600 --> 02:51:59,920
Speaker 2: get down.

3036
02:52:00,080 --> 02:52:03,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, definitely just share stuff that, you know, if

3037
02:52:04,240 --> 02:52:07,760
Speaker 4: you know our organization posts something on social media, you know,

3038
02:52:08,080 --> 02:52:10,560
Speaker 4: I mean it has to be taken as the truth

3039
02:52:10,560 --> 02:52:12,760
Speaker 4: because we're out there firsthand. We're the ones on the

3040
02:52:12,800 --> 02:52:18,000
Speaker 4: ground seeing reporting back, and by sharing that, you get

3041
02:52:18,440 --> 02:52:21,280
Speaker 4: people you know in different parts of the country or

3042
02:52:21,320 --> 02:52:23,800
Speaker 4: even you know, different parts of the world seeing like

3043
02:52:23,959 --> 02:52:28,120
Speaker 4: the realities of the US Mexico border, because you know,

3044
02:52:29,680 --> 02:52:32,879
Speaker 4: most people in the United States don't know. If they

3045
02:52:32,879 --> 02:52:35,760
Speaker 4: don't don't see it, they'll live near it. So that's

3046
02:52:36,000 --> 02:52:41,000
Speaker 4: you know, something that most people rely on the media

3047
02:52:41,680 --> 02:52:44,040
Speaker 4: and what they see on the nightly news, and you

3048
02:52:44,120 --> 02:52:48,560
Speaker 4: know even that, you know, the big media outlets don't

3049
02:52:48,640 --> 02:52:54,760
Speaker 4: take the most realistic or don't share the most realistic

3050
02:52:56,040 --> 02:52:59,640
Speaker 4: parts of the border, you know, only to you know,

3051
02:52:59,760 --> 02:53:03,440
Speaker 4: kate to their you know, their sponsors or cater to

3052
02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:06,720
Speaker 4: their crowds, and so a lot of people will get

3053
02:53:06,879 --> 02:53:10,520
Speaker 4: like the headlines, but they don't get the real deal,

3054
02:53:10,720 --> 02:53:12,640
Speaker 4: like you know, what's going on down the border, and

3055
02:53:12,720 --> 02:53:16,640
Speaker 4: so sharing is is a big part of you know,

3056
02:53:16,879 --> 02:53:20,560
Speaker 4: how the word spreads of the work that we do

3057
02:53:20,720 --> 02:53:22,120
Speaker 4: in other organizations as well.

3058
02:53:22,959 --> 02:53:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's very very valid. It was interesting

3059
02:53:26,040 --> 02:53:27,560
Speaker 2: to me recently. I didn't if you guys saw this,

3060
02:53:27,760 --> 02:53:32,680
Speaker 2: but like the floating border barrier in Texas and like

3061
02:53:33,160 --> 02:53:35,120
Speaker 2: very like this week, people have been reporting that it

3062
02:53:35,240 --> 02:53:37,800
Speaker 2: has the blades on it, which it does, and that's

3063
02:53:38,320 --> 02:53:41,280
Speaker 2: fucked up, like they shouldn't. It's horrible, but like it

3064
02:53:41,360 --> 02:53:43,600
Speaker 2: was kind of illiterative that I guess none of that

3065
02:53:43,720 --> 02:53:46,280
Speaker 2: are that none of the nationalitists had someone who'd seen it,

3066
02:53:46,560 --> 02:53:49,039
Speaker 2: because the blades have been there for like months where

3067
02:53:49,040 --> 02:53:51,119
Speaker 2: the prototype sat there. They were in the twenty twenty

3068
02:53:51,240 --> 02:53:55,680
Speaker 2: solicitation to like it just seemed odd to me that

3069
02:53:56,160 --> 02:53:58,280
Speaker 2: someone had to tweet a video for them to like

3070
02:53:58,440 --> 02:54:01,000
Speaker 2: understand because they go no one had walked up to

3071
02:54:01,000 --> 02:54:03,760
Speaker 2: it and checked it out, which I don't know. I

3072
02:54:03,800 --> 02:54:06,199
Speaker 2: think it's hard to do border reporting in New York personally,

3073
02:54:06,360 --> 02:54:12,520
Speaker 2: But yes, you're interested in the northern border. So I

3074
02:54:12,640 --> 02:54:14,800
Speaker 2: wanted to ask about Title forty two because I think

3075
02:54:14,879 --> 02:54:17,480
Speaker 2: our listeners are pretty well informed on what that was

3076
02:54:18,360 --> 02:54:21,600
Speaker 2: and what happened before and after that. So did you

3077
02:54:21,720 --> 02:54:25,640
Speaker 2: guys notice when that came into effect? Just to recap

3078
02:54:25,680 --> 02:54:28,640
Speaker 2: I guess for people, Title forty two allowed border patrol

3079
02:54:28,680 --> 02:54:34,040
Speaker 2: to bounce people straight back south without processing them and

3080
02:54:34,640 --> 02:54:37,560
Speaker 2: in nearly all cases without hearing that their claims were

3081
02:54:37,600 --> 02:54:41,800
Speaker 2: asylum if they had, and then those people were sometimes

3082
02:54:41,879 --> 02:54:44,760
Speaker 2: latterally translated across the border to a border town where

3083
02:54:44,800 --> 02:54:47,800
Speaker 2: they may not have had contacts or family or any resources.

3084
02:54:48,560 --> 02:54:51,400
Speaker 2: And it often resulted in most people finding themselves in

3085
02:54:51,440 --> 02:54:53,600
Speaker 2: an even more difficult situation than they already were, or

3086
02:54:53,640 --> 02:54:57,400
Speaker 2: trying to cross in more difficult and dangerous places to

3087
02:54:57,480 --> 02:55:00,680
Speaker 2: avoid that. So did you guys notice any changes like

3088
02:55:01,000 --> 02:55:03,680
Speaker 2: around and that came in what March or twenty twenty?

3089
02:55:03,760 --> 02:55:05,600
Speaker 2: As soon as they could as soon as they found

3090
02:55:05,640 --> 02:55:13,279
Speaker 2: an excusing in COVID, and not so much.

3091
02:55:14,840 --> 02:55:17,800
Speaker 4: From what we see because we don't come across people

3092
02:55:18,040 --> 02:55:23,800
Speaker 4: too often face to face. Did notice that once the

3093
02:55:24,080 --> 02:55:29,040
Speaker 4: policy was put into place, meaning Title forty two, and

3094
02:55:29,200 --> 02:55:32,760
Speaker 4: you know, with the pandemic starting, we did notice a

3095
02:55:32,879 --> 02:55:37,080
Speaker 4: big uptick on the amount of people coming through. We've

3096
02:55:37,560 --> 02:55:42,120
Speaker 4: seen you know before that you know, just a handful

3097
02:55:42,120 --> 02:55:44,720
Speaker 4: of people maybe like that. We'd come across a lot

3098
02:55:44,760 --> 02:55:48,520
Speaker 4: of times, those people crossing at nighttime and it wasn't

3099
02:55:48,560 --> 02:55:51,280
Speaker 4: something that we came across much. But after that went

3100
02:55:51,320 --> 02:55:54,440
Speaker 4: into effect in twenty twenty, we started running into a

3101
02:55:54,480 --> 02:55:58,520
Speaker 4: lot more people. We started seeing people that knew, you know,

3102
02:55:58,959 --> 02:56:03,640
Speaker 4: somewhat of you know, the policy, and that people would

3103
02:56:03,680 --> 02:56:07,960
Speaker 4: try multiple times every day to you know, cross through,

3104
02:56:08,000 --> 02:56:11,320
Speaker 4: and if they got apprehended and got you know, taken

3105
02:56:11,360 --> 02:56:15,880
Speaker 4: into Mexico, they tried again that same day. And so

3106
02:56:16,000 --> 02:56:18,400
Speaker 4: we noticed a lot more of our supplies being used,

3107
02:56:18,480 --> 02:56:22,320
Speaker 4: a lot more foot traffic, and a lot more you know,

3108
02:56:22,440 --> 02:56:25,800
Speaker 4: interactions with us. We started seeing a lot more interactions

3109
02:56:25,920 --> 02:56:29,440
Speaker 4: with you know, board patrol and people crossing through. And

3110
02:56:29,600 --> 02:56:35,280
Speaker 4: so when the policy was coming to an end, the

3111
02:56:35,440 --> 02:56:40,440
Speaker 4: only thing that we really saw increase was the amount

3112
02:56:40,520 --> 02:56:44,800
Speaker 4: of people trying to get in before you know, quote

3113
02:56:44,879 --> 02:56:49,240
Speaker 4: unquote got closed off, you know, before like the bands

3114
02:56:49,280 --> 02:56:51,800
Speaker 4: would go into effect and you know, like the no

3115
02:56:52,200 --> 02:56:54,480
Speaker 4: you know, you can re enter for a you know

3116
02:56:54,480 --> 02:56:56,400
Speaker 4: a certain amount of years and all that kind of stuff.

3117
02:56:56,879 --> 02:57:00,400
Speaker 4: So like the camp in Hukumba, you know, you see

3118
02:57:00,520 --> 02:57:09,240
Speaker 4: you know, thousands of people showing up as that you know, stopped,

3119
02:57:09,520 --> 02:57:13,680
Speaker 4: as Top forty two stopped. We really can't notice too

3120
02:57:13,760 --> 02:57:19,640
Speaker 4: much yet that less people are crossing through compared to

3121
02:57:20,600 --> 02:57:25,880
Speaker 4: the beginning the middle of the policy. Our supplies are

3122
02:57:25,920 --> 02:57:29,600
Speaker 4: still being used at a high rate, still see a

3123
02:57:29,680 --> 02:57:32,320
Speaker 4: fair amount of traffic come through, you know, these these

3124
02:57:32,400 --> 02:57:36,280
Speaker 4: corridors and everything like that. So it's kind of hard

3125
02:57:36,800 --> 02:57:43,520
Speaker 4: on our end. But you know, we also know that

3126
02:57:44,000 --> 02:57:50,600
Speaker 4: people who do cross not at a porta entry by foot,

3127
02:57:51,440 --> 02:57:53,760
Speaker 4: whether it's over a fence, whether it's around a fence,

3128
02:57:53,840 --> 02:57:56,800
Speaker 4: whether it's through the desert, over the hills. We know

3129
02:57:57,000 --> 02:58:05,680
Speaker 4: that people are still being apprehended, processed, and released with

3130
02:58:05,800 --> 02:58:10,480
Speaker 4: their asylum claims. So it's hard, as you know, on

3131
02:58:10,560 --> 02:58:14,240
Speaker 4: the board to know exactly what's going on because a

3132
02:58:14,360 --> 02:58:15,520
Speaker 4: policy can say one thing.

3133
02:58:16,320 --> 02:58:18,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it doesn't matter exactly.

3134
02:58:18,120 --> 02:58:22,840
Speaker 4: Like the residential administration can say one thing, the DHS

3135
02:58:22,920 --> 02:58:27,280
Speaker 4: can say one thing, and completely different is happening, you

3136
02:58:27,360 --> 02:58:32,480
Speaker 4: know right right there. I don't know. I mean, I

3137
02:58:32,640 --> 02:58:36,519
Speaker 4: can't really say honestly how much it's changed from our perspective.

3138
02:58:37,600 --> 02:58:39,600
Speaker 12: I think when these things happen, like it's always really

3139
02:58:39,640 --> 02:58:42,400
Speaker 12: difficult because like I think the three of us are

3140
02:58:42,440 --> 02:58:45,199
Speaker 12: aware of there's the things that are put in place,

3141
02:58:45,720 --> 02:58:48,320
Speaker 12: and that's how they're going to be applied in theory,

3142
02:58:49,000 --> 02:58:50,360
Speaker 12: and then those of us that have been doing this

3143
02:58:50,520 --> 02:58:53,320
Speaker 12: work can anticipate how it's going to have an impact

3144
02:58:53,400 --> 02:58:54,039
Speaker 12: in practice.

3145
02:58:54,640 --> 02:58:55,280
Speaker 4: So, like.

3146
02:58:57,280 --> 02:59:00,400
Speaker 7: The things that are occurring now in order to so

3147
02:59:00,640 --> 02:59:01,920
Speaker 7: called like curb.

3148
02:59:02,520 --> 02:59:07,720
Speaker 12: The influx of people like using an app or having

3149
02:59:07,879 --> 02:59:11,240
Speaker 12: like on certain things, like all of these things like

3150
02:59:11,600 --> 02:59:15,240
Speaker 12: we know and we don't have like any faith that

3151
02:59:15,320 --> 02:59:18,520
Speaker 12: they were put in in good faith, and we know

3152
02:59:18,800 --> 02:59:24,400
Speaker 12: like that we can anticipate, Okay, you're gonna be banned

3153
02:59:24,440 --> 02:59:28,440
Speaker 12: if you don't go in through these like really ridiculously

3154
02:59:28,560 --> 02:59:31,959
Speaker 12: inaccessible means, and that that word is going to get

3155
02:59:31,959 --> 02:59:34,480
Speaker 12: around that people are going to freak out, They're not

3156
02:59:34,560 --> 02:59:36,320
Speaker 12: going to bother and they're going to hit the desert,

3157
02:59:36,400 --> 02:59:38,840
Speaker 12: and that's what we're seeing. Whether we can actually like

3158
02:59:38,840 --> 02:59:41,840
Speaker 12: attribute it directly to like these policy changes, what I

3159
02:59:41,879 --> 02:59:45,000
Speaker 12: think we can attribute it more directly to is like one,

3160
02:59:45,160 --> 02:59:49,280
Speaker 12: global migration, regardless of policy, is increasing all over the world,

3161
02:59:49,800 --> 02:59:53,440
Speaker 12: and that desperation doesn't like really wait for any kind

3162
02:59:53,440 --> 02:59:59,199
Speaker 12: of policy change. Two is like the misinformation and sort

3163
02:59:59,240 --> 03:00:02,120
Speaker 12: of like chatter that people are hearing about like this

3164
03:00:02,280 --> 03:00:05,840
Speaker 12: pos changing. Oh I heard that, like if you don't

3165
03:00:05,920 --> 03:00:07,560
Speaker 12: use this app, they're going to put you in jail.

3166
03:00:07,640 --> 03:00:09,800
Speaker 12: And like just like literally these things that we're hearing

3167
03:00:09,879 --> 03:00:13,640
Speaker 12: on the border that is funneling people directly into the

3168
03:00:13,720 --> 03:00:16,920
Speaker 12: desert because they want to avoid any kind of interaction

3169
03:00:17,040 --> 03:00:19,280
Speaker 12: with border patrol. Even if they have like what would

3170
03:00:19,360 --> 03:00:25,240
Speaker 12: be a you know, like an asylum claim. People aren't

3171
03:00:25,840 --> 03:00:30,120
Speaker 12: trusting because there's so much change and uncertainty at like

3172
03:00:30,400 --> 03:00:35,440
Speaker 12: a policy level. There's no accessibility to this information, there's

3173
03:00:35,480 --> 03:00:38,240
Speaker 12: no clarity to this information. Nobody knows what's going on,

3174
03:00:38,400 --> 03:00:40,480
Speaker 12: whether it's people that are working in border aid or

3175
03:00:40,560 --> 03:00:43,960
Speaker 12: people that are seeking asylum. So people are just you know,

3176
03:00:44,120 --> 03:00:47,360
Speaker 12: taking their chances and hitting the desert. And regardless of

3177
03:00:47,400 --> 03:00:50,320
Speaker 12: the policy change, like ever since the last like you know,

3178
03:00:50,480 --> 03:00:53,720
Speaker 12: like we said like three to five years, the increase

3179
03:00:53,840 --> 03:00:57,039
Speaker 12: has been like exponential every single year.

3180
03:00:57,080 --> 03:00:58,160
Speaker 7: It just continues increasing.

3181
03:01:00,160 --> 03:01:03,280
Speaker 4: I wanted to add in, is that so the Title

3182
03:01:03,320 --> 03:01:06,760
Speaker 4: forty two policy was used, you know, in conjunction with

3183
03:01:06,879 --> 03:01:10,000
Speaker 4: the you know, national emergency with COVID and all that

3184
03:01:10,120 --> 03:01:16,960
Speaker 4: kind of stuff with the country, you know, ending the

3185
03:01:17,280 --> 03:01:23,840
Speaker 4: national emergency, they couldn't you know, couldn't justify keeping Title

3186
03:01:23,879 --> 03:01:28,720
Speaker 4: forty two in effect. And in a way, I feel

3187
03:01:28,800 --> 03:01:36,880
Speaker 4: that the administration was just playing you know, political chess

3188
03:01:37,680 --> 03:01:45,280
Speaker 4: and using people, vulnerable people as pawns. And so the

3189
03:01:45,400 --> 03:01:49,039
Speaker 4: rhetoric coming out and you know, the you know, we're

3190
03:01:49,080 --> 03:01:50,959
Speaker 4: taking a hard stance and this that and the other,

3191
03:01:51,879 --> 03:01:56,360
Speaker 4: a crackdown on immigration, and that I feel it was

3192
03:01:56,920 --> 03:02:02,480
Speaker 4: the current presidential administration just trying to appeal to a

3193
03:02:02,600 --> 03:02:08,600
Speaker 4: larger audience or when the election comes up next year,

3194
03:02:08,920 --> 03:02:11,000
Speaker 4: you know, can you say, hey, look did this, did that,

3195
03:02:11,240 --> 03:02:14,240
Speaker 4: did this? And the way the numbers have been skewed

3196
03:02:14,360 --> 03:02:19,320
Speaker 4: for apprehensions, you know, that's when you'd have like say

3197
03:02:19,400 --> 03:02:23,960
Speaker 4: in San Luis and Yuma, Arizona, you would see you know,

3198
03:02:24,120 --> 03:02:26,840
Speaker 4: hundreds and thousands of people every day showing up to

3199
03:02:26,959 --> 03:02:30,119
Speaker 4: present themselves for asilence. Those all got recorded as apprehension numbers.

3200
03:02:30,640 --> 03:02:33,640
Speaker 4: So you've got in one month, you know, however many

3201
03:02:33,800 --> 03:02:40,080
Speaker 4: you know, thousands. Now Title forty two ends. Now that

3202
03:02:40,280 --> 03:02:43,880
Speaker 4: number shrinks down. Now that looks better, That looks tougher

3203
03:02:43,959 --> 03:02:46,800
Speaker 4: on you know, immergion. That looks like you're doing this,

3204
03:02:46,879 --> 03:02:51,160
Speaker 4: that and the other. Meanwhile, you have people just you know,

3205
03:02:51,240 --> 03:02:55,920
Speaker 4: being vulnerable, being you know, in limbo, you know, on

3206
03:02:55,959 --> 03:02:57,520
Speaker 4: the other side of the border, or you have them

3207
03:02:57,560 --> 03:02:59,959
Speaker 4: taking to the mountains and deserts and taking the dangerous

3208
03:03:00,160 --> 03:03:05,960
Speaker 4: trek just so they can be apprehended and you know,

3209
03:03:06,680 --> 03:03:10,000
Speaker 4: plead their case and try to get asylum and try

3210
03:03:10,040 --> 03:03:14,040
Speaker 4: to get released into the United States. So people that

3211
03:03:14,200 --> 03:03:16,920
Speaker 4: are being used as ponds in this political theater that

3212
03:03:16,959 --> 03:03:20,560
Speaker 4: we always talk about. As always, it doesn't matter the administration,

3213
03:03:20,720 --> 03:03:23,800
Speaker 4: whether it's blue, whether it's red, whether it's orange, whether

3214
03:03:23,879 --> 03:03:26,600
Speaker 4: it's old, whether it's you know, money, it's all money.

3215
03:03:26,920 --> 03:03:34,320
Speaker 4: And unfortunately, you know, we have to constantly like dispel

3216
03:03:35,080 --> 03:03:37,520
Speaker 4: a lot of that false narrative that comes out, and

3217
03:03:37,600 --> 03:03:40,000
Speaker 4: it gets exhausting, but I mean it's what we have

3218
03:03:40,120 --> 03:03:42,000
Speaker 4: to do because you're not going to find that out

3219
03:03:42,040 --> 03:03:42,640
Speaker 4: any other way.

3220
03:03:43,560 --> 03:03:46,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're really not. I think that's the next one point.

3221
03:03:46,760 --> 03:03:48,960
Speaker 2: And the point about apprehensions is good, right, they always

3222
03:03:49,000 --> 03:03:53,520
Speaker 2: reported and I've heard like NPR do this report apprehensions

3223
03:03:53,560 --> 03:03:55,760
Speaker 2: as if they're individuals, which they were not under Title

3224
03:03:55,800 --> 03:03:57,600
Speaker 2: forty two. Like if you cross five times in a

3225
03:03:57,720 --> 03:03:59,920
Speaker 2: day and get apprehended and sent back five times, that's

3226
03:04:00,000 --> 03:04:04,760
Speaker 2: five apprehensions. It's one person, And they were deliberately using

3227
03:04:04,840 --> 03:04:07,440
Speaker 2: that to make this to seem like more people are coming,

3228
03:04:07,480 --> 03:04:09,160
Speaker 2: and as you say, now it will seem like less

3229
03:04:09,200 --> 03:04:13,320
Speaker 2: because that doesn't happen anymore. I think your point about

3230
03:04:13,720 --> 03:04:16,800
Speaker 2: like the jacking and the points about the misinformation is

3231
03:04:17,160 --> 03:04:20,800
Speaker 2: super crucial and one that again often isn't reported. But

3232
03:04:21,040 --> 03:04:25,199
Speaker 2: like I'm not a lawyer, and I can't give people

3233
03:04:25,280 --> 03:04:29,000
Speaker 2: legal advice, but constantly when I'm in Tijuana, when I'm

3234
03:04:29,280 --> 03:04:33,200
Speaker 2: in Sonora, when anywhere where I'm like on the southern

3235
03:04:33,280 --> 03:04:35,039
Speaker 2: side of the border or on this side of the border,

3236
03:04:35,160 --> 03:04:37,320
Speaker 2: people will ask me, or when the people are trapped

3237
03:04:37,320 --> 03:04:41,119
Speaker 2: in between the two fences that constitute the border, people

3238
03:04:41,160 --> 03:04:43,720
Speaker 2: will say, hey have you had this? Hey I got this,

3239
03:04:43,800 --> 03:04:46,480
Speaker 2: and they'll play like voice messages on WhatsApp often or

3240
03:04:46,560 --> 03:04:51,320
Speaker 2: show me a WhatsApp and we'll go over like that's

3241
03:04:51,400 --> 03:04:53,640
Speaker 2: not my understanding, you know, like I don't think that's

3242
03:04:53,680 --> 03:04:58,879
Speaker 2: the case, but it's it's I understand you're vulnerable, you're scared,

3243
03:04:58,920 --> 03:05:01,800
Speaker 2: and this shit like I have a PhD and speak

3244
03:05:01,840 --> 03:05:04,280
Speaker 2: all the concerned languages, and I don't understand it fully,

3245
03:05:04,600 --> 03:05:08,880
Speaker 2: Like it's it's complicated and petrifying if this is your

3246
03:05:08,959 --> 03:05:12,520
Speaker 2: only hope of like a dignified life, and I think

3247
03:05:12,520 --> 03:05:15,000
Speaker 2: it's something that people don't understand. It's how hard it

3248
03:05:15,120 --> 03:05:18,400
Speaker 2: is for those people to get decent information about like

3249
03:05:18,480 --> 03:05:22,480
Speaker 2: what there's quote unquote supposed to do, especially when we

3250
03:05:22,640 --> 03:05:25,119
Speaker 2: have this app, which like I don't have a ton

3251
03:05:25,160 --> 03:05:27,360
Speaker 2: of foyers in around the app, but I don't think

3252
03:05:27,480 --> 03:05:29,720
Speaker 2: I'll ever get any documents back from the FAD to

3253
03:05:29,760 --> 03:05:33,800
Speaker 2: be honest, but yeah, it's it's so toerocious. I think

3254
03:05:34,120 --> 03:05:34,920
Speaker 2: it's ridiculous.

3255
03:05:35,840 --> 03:05:39,400
Speaker 7: Yeah no, then the information that people receive isn't even accurate.

3256
03:05:40,360 --> 03:05:44,520
Speaker 12: Like so whenever there is that somebody like say has

3257
03:05:44,600 --> 03:05:47,600
Speaker 12: come to like our office downtown in Mehigali and like

3258
03:05:48,240 --> 03:05:51,040
Speaker 12: you know, run in their paperwork and say, like I

3259
03:05:51,120 --> 03:05:54,200
Speaker 12: have a court date they're all like there was a

3260
03:05:54,280 --> 03:05:57,520
Speaker 12: time like during you know MPP and all of that,

3261
03:05:57,879 --> 03:06:00,640
Speaker 12: like where people were being giving court dates on Sundays

3262
03:06:00,840 --> 03:06:05,480
Speaker 12: or being given court dates in Texas when they were

3263
03:06:06,040 --> 03:06:08,920
Speaker 12: sent back after their arrest in Arizona to MEXICALI like,

3264
03:06:09,640 --> 03:06:13,959
Speaker 12: just crazy stuff. Like if people are even lucky enough

3265
03:06:14,080 --> 03:06:17,200
Speaker 12: to get somebody to help guide them through the process,

3266
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:19,880
Speaker 12: it's not even like a certainty that the information that

3267
03:06:19,920 --> 03:06:23,240
Speaker 12: they're provided is even going to be accurate on purpose,

3268
03:06:23,520 --> 03:06:27,160
Speaker 12: Like people are given inaccurate information to wade through this

3269
03:06:27,280 --> 03:06:31,360
Speaker 12: process that doesn't seem to make sense to anyone. It's

3270
03:06:31,520 --> 03:06:37,240
Speaker 12: it's wildly like convoluted. I mean that's the intention, right,

3271
03:06:37,440 --> 03:06:40,560
Speaker 12: Like it's not meant to be navigated in any way.

3272
03:06:41,400 --> 03:06:43,600
Speaker 2: No, no, it's not. It's meant to be belove I think.

3273
03:06:43,720 --> 03:06:45,800
Speaker 2: And like even with the work that our friends at

3274
03:06:46,280 --> 03:06:49,000
Speaker 2: Alato do and other legal aid groups, I was speaking

3275
03:06:49,040 --> 03:06:51,480
Speaker 2: to an Ethiopian friend who I met in Tijuana and

3276
03:06:51,560 --> 03:06:53,640
Speaker 2: he lives in US and he helps other folks now

3277
03:06:53,720 --> 03:06:57,280
Speaker 2: who have arrived more recently, and he was saying that

3278
03:06:57,520 --> 03:07:00,720
Speaker 2: like getting a lawyer to represent you can cost you

3279
03:07:01,600 --> 03:07:05,080
Speaker 2: maybe five grand, maybe twelve, and you might not have

3280
03:07:05,280 --> 03:07:08,480
Speaker 2: the legal right to work, right, so where is that

3281
03:07:08,560 --> 03:07:11,200
Speaker 2: money supposed to come from? And then do you know

3282
03:07:11,440 --> 03:07:14,680
Speaker 2: if if your language is you know, aroma or something,

3283
03:07:14,760 --> 03:07:17,280
Speaker 2: it's that much harder to navigate that system, to find

3284
03:07:17,400 --> 03:07:20,680
Speaker 2: useful resources to explain it to you. And it's yeah,

3285
03:07:20,920 --> 03:07:23,440
Speaker 2: it's people like to talk about like how I know

3286
03:07:23,560 --> 03:07:27,640
Speaker 2: that their family did legal legal quote unquote migration when

3287
03:07:27,760 --> 03:07:29,760
Speaker 2: there weren't these checks in place and they didn't have

3288
03:07:29,840 --> 03:07:32,640
Speaker 2: to do any of this shit, And I don't know,

3289
03:07:32,920 --> 03:07:36,320
Speaker 2: it's I don't think people realize how brutalizing the system

3290
03:07:36,480 --> 03:07:38,880
Speaker 2: is until they've seen it first hand.

3291
03:07:39,000 --> 03:07:40,439
Speaker 11: That there the point.

3292
03:07:40,640 --> 03:07:43,760
Speaker 12: Like the and the confusion, like putting people in danger

3293
03:07:44,240 --> 03:07:47,200
Speaker 12: is the whole point. And it's intentional. Like so if

3294
03:07:47,200 --> 03:07:49,520
Speaker 12: somebody's there and like you said, like they speak there,

3295
03:07:50,320 --> 03:07:54,640
Speaker 12: they're not able to even like wrap their heads around

3296
03:07:54,680 --> 03:07:57,959
Speaker 12: the process, letl on access like the resources in order

3297
03:07:58,040 --> 03:08:01,400
Speaker 12: to navigate that system. Then Yota approaches them and tells

3298
03:08:01,480 --> 03:08:04,039
Speaker 12: them like, oh, I can take you over here to Romrosa.

3299
03:08:04,560 --> 03:08:06,360
Speaker 12: All you have to do is pay me three hundred

3300
03:08:06,360 --> 03:08:09,000
Speaker 12: American instead of five thousand for this, Like, eh, you're

3301
03:08:09,000 --> 03:08:11,480
Speaker 12: probably not going to win that case. The town's a

3302
03:08:11,560 --> 03:08:14,120
Speaker 12: mile away. The town's a mile away, and it's a

3303
03:08:14,200 --> 03:08:16,720
Speaker 12: straight shot and you'll get there in half a day

3304
03:08:17,480 --> 03:08:19,760
Speaker 12: and then you're good to go. And I mean we've

3305
03:08:19,840 --> 03:08:21,920
Speaker 12: heard the most wild stories, like even from people in

3306
03:08:21,959 --> 03:08:24,920
Speaker 12: the middle of the desert lost saying they told me

3307
03:08:25,000 --> 03:08:27,080
Speaker 12: it was two mile walk and that there was they

3308
03:08:27,120 --> 03:08:29,080
Speaker 12: were hiring in the town on the other side of

3309
03:08:29,160 --> 03:08:32,640
Speaker 12: that hill. Yeah, like, and I mean, like who wouldn't

3310
03:08:32,720 --> 03:08:35,039
Speaker 12: at that point it's like you don't have a country

3311
03:08:35,080 --> 03:08:37,960
Speaker 12: to go back to. Yeah, Like it's no longer like, oh,

3312
03:08:38,000 --> 03:08:40,560
Speaker 12: I'm fleeing my I'm migrating from my country because there's

3313
03:08:40,600 --> 03:08:42,320
Speaker 12: no work. No, there is no country to speak of,

3314
03:08:42,520 --> 03:08:46,400
Speaker 12: at least not for you. And you're here and this

3315
03:08:46,520 --> 03:08:49,440
Speaker 12: Goyota presents you this upper like so it's misinformation and

3316
03:08:49,600 --> 03:08:53,000
Speaker 12: exploitation like every single step of the way. And a

3317
03:08:53,080 --> 03:08:57,160
Speaker 12: lot of the time people's most straightforward avenue is through

3318
03:08:57,200 --> 03:09:01,440
Speaker 12: the desert, even though it's like unbelievable, hardened, very very

3319
03:09:01,520 --> 03:09:05,600
Speaker 12: often deadly. That's like the surest shot that they have

3320
03:09:05,879 --> 03:09:08,680
Speaker 12: and they take it because I mean it wouldn't.

3321
03:09:09,200 --> 03:09:11,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, it's it's not like yet, like you say,

3322
03:09:11,120 --> 03:09:13,160
Speaker 2: people aren't like you know, doing the numbers and thinking

3323
03:09:13,160 --> 03:09:15,000
Speaker 2: they'll make more money in the US. It's like I

3324
03:09:15,080 --> 03:09:18,120
Speaker 2: will die if I stay, or someone who's already killed

3325
03:09:18,160 --> 03:09:20,720
Speaker 2: someone I love, and I have to leave now, and

3326
03:09:20,959 --> 03:09:26,960
Speaker 2: especially when like the Trump administration, like the people aren't aware,

3327
03:09:27,000 --> 03:09:29,000
Speaker 2: Like towards the end of the Trump administration, Trump started

3328
03:09:29,040 --> 03:09:31,760
Speaker 2: making claims in presidential debates about the number of miles

3329
03:09:31,800 --> 03:09:34,879
Speaker 2: of wall he was he had built as far as

3330
03:09:34,920 --> 03:09:36,320
Speaker 2: I can work out, he pulled out of his ass,

3331
03:09:36,720 --> 03:09:41,640
Speaker 2: and then the like then they started rushing to build

3332
03:09:41,680 --> 03:09:45,160
Speaker 2: more wall, and they I asked them how they came

3333
03:09:45,240 --> 03:09:46,960
Speaker 2: up with that number, and then they like they did

3334
03:09:47,040 --> 03:09:48,520
Speaker 2: this thing where they were like, oh, well, we repaired

3335
03:09:48,560 --> 03:09:50,360
Speaker 2: this much wall and they were like eight miles of

3336
03:09:50,400 --> 03:09:54,920
Speaker 2: border wall prototype and like cool man, Like they didn't

3337
03:09:54,920 --> 03:09:58,560
Speaker 2: build that much wall, but they started skipping the harder parts,

3338
03:09:58,760 --> 03:10:02,480
Speaker 2: right like Valley of the Moon, even that boulder Pilo

3339
03:10:02,480 --> 03:10:06,560
Speaker 2: outside of Cumba, Like there are areas that don't have

3340
03:10:06,840 --> 03:10:10,520
Speaker 2: wool and those areas that are harder, and then that's

3341
03:10:10,560 --> 03:10:13,360
Speaker 2: where people try and cross and like I love to

3342
03:10:13,400 --> 03:10:16,040
Speaker 2: go outside. I'm a pretty fit person, and like the

3343
03:10:16,160 --> 03:10:18,800
Speaker 2: value of the Moon is hard going, like if you're

3344
03:10:18,840 --> 03:10:21,320
Speaker 2: not going up the road, like that's tough travel and

3345
03:10:21,600 --> 03:10:23,760
Speaker 2: that's where people don't have a choice bed to cross,

3346
03:10:23,879 --> 03:10:26,440
Speaker 2: right right, Yeah.

3347
03:10:27,320 --> 03:10:30,440
Speaker 4: That's where and that's where, like you in May, it

3348
03:10:30,680 --> 03:10:33,440
Speaker 4: was I think with the first second week in May,

3349
03:10:34,160 --> 03:10:37,199
Speaker 4: when you know, just a few days before Total forty

3350
03:10:37,240 --> 03:10:40,360
Speaker 4: two was ending, that's where thousands of people came through.

3351
03:10:41,280 --> 03:10:44,720
Speaker 4: Was through that area down into the town of Cumba,

3352
03:10:45,520 --> 03:10:47,440
Speaker 4: and a lot of people, i mean we're talking about

3353
03:10:47,480 --> 03:10:51,080
Speaker 4: you know, thousands came through there, and a lot said

3354
03:10:51,120 --> 03:10:55,840
Speaker 4: that they paid upwards to one thousand dollars ahead two

3355
03:10:57,000 --> 03:11:00,560
Speaker 4: coyotes that brought them there and said, hey, when you

3356
03:11:00,720 --> 03:11:03,680
Speaker 4: get down there, you just follow this road. Once you

3357
03:11:03,760 --> 03:11:05,120
Speaker 4: get down to the bottom, there's gonna be a buzz

3358
03:11:05,160 --> 03:11:07,039
Speaker 4: waiting for you. It'll take you in. And then they

3359
03:11:07,080 --> 03:11:09,959
Speaker 4: got the stranded for days after going through that terrain.

3360
03:11:10,560 --> 03:11:13,600
Speaker 4: The temperature that's when like the season really started shifting,

3361
03:11:14,120 --> 03:11:17,680
Speaker 4: so the nights were really cold, the daytime highs were

3362
03:11:17,720 --> 03:11:21,960
Speaker 4: pretty hot. And I mean that was the you know

3363
03:11:22,120 --> 03:11:23,200
Speaker 4: designed you know.

3364
03:11:25,440 --> 03:11:29,720
Speaker 12: Cruelty the invasion that gave the semblance of the invasion.

3365
03:11:30,240 --> 03:11:34,120
Speaker 2: Because you could huddle people together and then claim that

3366
03:11:34,160 --> 03:11:36,880
Speaker 2: you weren't detaining them that right, exactly.

3367
03:11:37,000 --> 03:11:39,040
Speaker 4: They weren't free to leave, they said the border patrol

3368
03:11:39,080 --> 03:11:41,160
Speaker 4: told them that they had arrest them if they left

3369
03:11:41,280 --> 03:11:45,120
Speaker 4: the I mean I say camp loosely because it was

3370
03:11:45,560 --> 03:11:50,320
Speaker 4: just like out in an open field with that people

3371
03:11:50,640 --> 03:11:53,480
Speaker 4: you know, cut down branches and turn into shelters and

3372
03:11:54,280 --> 03:11:57,240
Speaker 4: use areas that they cut down for like fires, campfires

3373
03:11:57,280 --> 03:12:01,240
Speaker 4: and knights to stay warm. And you know, border patrol

3374
03:12:01,640 --> 03:12:06,080
Speaker 4: probably didn't expect that a people locally in Hukumba were

3375
03:12:06,120 --> 03:12:09,720
Speaker 4: going to care or be that the word would get

3376
03:12:09,760 --> 03:12:15,840
Speaker 4: out and so their crual practices that they were in

3377
03:12:16,000 --> 03:12:19,480
Speaker 4: acting on like the first day or two of people

3378
03:12:19,640 --> 03:12:23,960
Speaker 4: showing up and being stranded no food, no water, then

3379
03:12:24,600 --> 03:12:27,879
Speaker 4: it kind of backfired. And then you know, I believe

3380
03:12:27,959 --> 03:12:29,600
Speaker 4: you went out there as well. You saw how many

3381
03:12:29,680 --> 03:12:32,800
Speaker 4: people showed up to care, and like we were working

3382
03:12:32,840 --> 03:12:36,480
Speaker 4: around the clock to try to you know, organize and

3383
03:12:37,000 --> 03:12:43,200
Speaker 4: make food, prepare food pack, collect donations everything. And you

3384
03:12:43,320 --> 03:12:47,600
Speaker 4: know that's I've gone through that terrain and you know,

3385
03:12:47,720 --> 03:12:51,800
Speaker 4: after all that was closed down and looking through as

3386
03:12:52,280 --> 03:12:55,040
Speaker 4: you know, as we did like trash cleanups and people

3387
03:12:55,160 --> 03:12:58,840
Speaker 4: you know, would have their last remaining food and water

3388
03:12:59,320 --> 03:13:02,200
Speaker 4: that you could see coming through across you know, the

3389
03:13:02,240 --> 03:13:05,280
Speaker 4: area where they were brought to and like people shedding

3390
03:13:05,320 --> 03:13:07,840
Speaker 4: clothes because the temperatures were so warm dur in the

3391
03:13:07,920 --> 03:13:10,800
Speaker 4: daytime and then just wondering like okay, so they shed

3392
03:13:10,800 --> 03:13:12,760
Speaker 4: their clothes and now they're like freezing down the bottom

3393
03:13:12,760 --> 03:13:14,600
Speaker 4: of the hill and the terrain's too tough to go

3394
03:13:14,680 --> 03:13:15,720
Speaker 4: all the way back up.

3395
03:13:16,600 --> 03:13:18,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know it.

3396
03:13:19,320 --> 03:13:23,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's no fence over there. And the fences, you know,

3397
03:13:23,480 --> 03:13:25,600
Speaker 4: we've said have always been kind of built for the

3398
03:13:25,720 --> 03:13:30,520
Speaker 4: most part where people can see them. It gives the

3399
03:13:30,640 --> 03:13:34,240
Speaker 4: appearance to the rest of the country that's not out there,

3400
03:13:34,240 --> 03:13:37,600
Speaker 4: that there's a fence across the whole border, and you know,

3401
03:13:37,800 --> 03:13:39,640
Speaker 4: go into a lot of areas where we see that

3402
03:13:40,200 --> 03:13:43,199
Speaker 4: that's not the case. And also we see where border

3403
03:13:43,280 --> 03:13:48,120
Speaker 4: fences stop and migration makes its way right around the

3404
03:13:48,240 --> 03:13:48,600
Speaker 4: edge of that.

3405
03:13:49,280 --> 03:13:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the old time, but the.

3406
03:13:51,520 --> 03:13:56,039
Speaker 4: Disk now has increased longer for the walks because instead

3407
03:13:56,040 --> 03:13:58,240
Speaker 4: of just being able to walk through like an open area,

3408
03:13:59,080 --> 03:14:01,240
Speaker 4: now you have to go miles out of the way

3409
03:14:01,440 --> 03:14:03,640
Speaker 4: to get around to an opening in the fence or

3410
03:14:03,840 --> 03:14:08,080
Speaker 4: go up and over a mountain, and you know, doing

3411
03:14:08,120 --> 03:14:12,640
Speaker 4: that in the summertime, you exhaust yourself from the strategies,

3412
03:14:12,720 --> 03:14:16,000
Speaker 4: hike on top of the unbearable heat, and then you

3413
03:14:16,200 --> 03:14:19,720
Speaker 4: pass away, you know, an eighth of a mile from

3414
03:14:19,760 --> 03:14:22,640
Speaker 4: a fence, you know, as someone that we know that

3415
03:14:22,800 --> 03:14:24,600
Speaker 4: happened to them a couple of years ago. So it's

3416
03:14:26,200 --> 03:14:28,480
Speaker 4: as you're saying, like the fences and like where they're

3417
03:14:28,520 --> 03:14:33,720
Speaker 4: not put it's it's just a point of cruelty and

3418
03:14:33,840 --> 03:14:36,200
Speaker 4: part of the prevention through deterrence policy that's been going

3419
03:14:36,240 --> 03:14:43,520
Speaker 4: on for you know, almost thirty years now, and definitely yeah,

3420
03:14:43,640 --> 03:14:45,960
Speaker 4: and the CBP one app app and all the kind

3421
03:14:45,959 --> 03:14:48,920
Speaker 4: of stuff that's just another extension of prevention through the

3422
03:14:49,000 --> 03:14:52,760
Speaker 4: turns by making it harder for people and pushing people

3423
03:14:52,879 --> 03:14:55,280
Speaker 4: to ways that they can try to get through or

3424
03:14:55,560 --> 03:14:56,800
Speaker 4: you know what they think they can try to get

3425
03:14:56,800 --> 03:15:00,320
Speaker 4: through easier. And as Jacklin said, it's just it's become

3426
03:15:00,520 --> 03:15:03,560
Speaker 4: more and more deadier. And every year the numbers go

3427
03:15:03,720 --> 03:15:07,320
Speaker 4: up of confirmed US, but that doesn't count the amount

3428
03:15:07,320 --> 03:15:08,920
Speaker 4: of people that go missing every year.

3429
03:15:09,760 --> 03:15:12,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, or the people who like Border patrol to find

3430
03:15:12,480 --> 03:15:15,080
Speaker 2: and they you know, their numbers are any the people

3431
03:15:15,120 --> 03:15:17,160
Speaker 2: who they found, and that's the areas that are going

3432
03:15:17,400 --> 03:15:20,920
Speaker 2: like if people die for the North or yeah, or

3433
03:15:20,959 --> 03:15:21,520
Speaker 2: the death.

3434
03:15:21,360 --> 03:15:25,440
Speaker 12: That they they deliberately miscategorize as non migrant death. They're

3435
03:15:25,520 --> 03:15:28,720
Speaker 12: just John Doe's Jane Doe whatever, you know. They just

3436
03:15:28,760 --> 03:15:32,040
Speaker 12: say like, oh, you know, cause of death unclear, or

3437
03:15:32,240 --> 03:15:34,520
Speaker 12: cause of death for exposure, but they don't necessarily call

3438
03:15:34,560 --> 03:15:38,000
Speaker 12: it a migrant death even though someone you know, traveling

3439
03:15:38,080 --> 03:15:43,720
Speaker 12: with a backpack and the desert. Yeah, and they you know,

3440
03:15:44,400 --> 03:15:47,880
Speaker 12: like say that they were migrating just because they had

3441
03:15:48,160 --> 03:15:50,440
Speaker 12: you know, under and passport on them.

3442
03:15:51,720 --> 03:15:52,760
Speaker 7: That all the time too.

3443
03:15:52,959 --> 03:15:55,160
Speaker 12: So all of this is like we don't know the

3444
03:15:55,200 --> 03:15:57,600
Speaker 12: scope of their cruelty. Like it's just scary, is that,

3445
03:15:57,840 --> 03:16:00,920
Speaker 12: Like it's so much bigger than we even know, even

3446
03:16:00,959 --> 03:16:02,760
Speaker 12: like those of us that are like in it every day.

3447
03:16:03,760 --> 03:16:07,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no numbers like I would in a sense

3448
03:16:07,080 --> 03:16:08,720
Speaker 2: love to in a sense would be horrible. I don't

3449
03:16:08,760 --> 03:16:10,640
Speaker 2: think it should matter, Like I don't think it should

3450
03:16:10,680 --> 03:16:12,800
Speaker 2: matter how many people, Like every single one of those

3451
03:16:12,879 --> 03:16:15,440
Speaker 2: is a tragedy, and it's somewhat's mumal or dad or

3452
03:16:16,440 --> 03:16:21,760
Speaker 2: brother or sister. I kind of wanted to to maybe

3453
03:16:21,879 --> 03:16:25,400
Speaker 2: talk about like one incident that if if you're comfortable

3454
03:16:25,480 --> 03:16:27,800
Speaker 2: doing it like that, you might be familiar with that,

3455
03:16:27,879 --> 03:16:31,720
Speaker 2: I think can give people a sense of how dehumanizing

3456
03:16:31,800 --> 03:16:34,960
Speaker 2: this is and how cruel this is. You guys, I

3457
03:16:35,000 --> 03:16:38,640
Speaker 2: know you're familiar with it, but the young women who

3458
03:16:38,640 --> 03:16:43,040
Speaker 2: died on the shrine trail in was it winter of

3459
03:16:43,120 --> 03:16:44,680
Speaker 2: twenty twenty or winter of twenty twenty one?

3460
03:16:46,040 --> 03:16:49,280
Speaker 4: Yes, that was February twenty twenty.

3461
03:16:49,959 --> 03:16:55,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's right before COVID. So for people who

3462
03:16:55,200 --> 03:16:58,240
Speaker 2: aren't as familiar, can I spoke a little bit about

3463
03:16:58,280 --> 03:17:01,440
Speaker 2: it in our series, but can you describe kind of

3464
03:17:01,600 --> 03:17:05,360
Speaker 2: the process that if you're comfortable, I know it's like

3465
03:17:05,440 --> 03:17:08,800
Speaker 2: a it's a pretty horrible thing, but can you describe

3466
03:17:09,000 --> 03:17:12,400
Speaker 2: like like how they crossed and what happened to them?

3467
03:17:13,920 --> 03:17:16,760
Speaker 4: I mean, we can give you like some of the

3468
03:17:16,840 --> 03:17:19,760
Speaker 4: background that was like in a newspaper article that we

3469
03:17:19,879 --> 03:17:20,520
Speaker 4: had come to learn.

3470
03:17:21,120 --> 03:17:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, we have a like direct communication. Yeah yeah, yeah,

3471
03:17:25,840 --> 03:17:27,760
Speaker 2: you're not in content. I just like I think it

3472
03:17:27,800 --> 03:17:31,560
Speaker 2: would be helpful for people to realize that, like, you know, this,

3473
03:17:32,000 --> 03:17:34,240
Speaker 2: this is what happened to them, and then also that

3474
03:17:34,320 --> 03:17:37,039
Speaker 2: you guys have been able to respond after that happened

3475
03:17:37,080 --> 03:17:40,720
Speaker 2: to like at least try and and help like deploy

3476
03:17:40,840 --> 03:17:42,520
Speaker 2: kind of resources to that a bit less of a

3477
03:17:42,600 --> 03:17:43,840
Speaker 2: treacherous crossing.

3478
03:17:44,520 --> 03:17:53,920
Speaker 4: So as the situation was unfolding, it was nighttime and

3479
03:17:55,840 --> 03:17:59,920
Speaker 4: there was like a freak storm that came through eastern

3480
03:18:00,040 --> 03:18:04,680
Speaker 4: San Diego County around around the area of I think

3481
03:18:04,879 --> 03:18:13,480
Speaker 4: like Live Oak Springs Mount Laguna area, and it was

3482
03:18:13,640 --> 03:18:18,119
Speaker 4: just you know, raining and cold before, but like later

3483
03:18:18,240 --> 03:18:20,840
Speaker 4: on that day it kind of turned into snow and

3484
03:18:21,440 --> 03:18:27,680
Speaker 4: turned into heavy winds, like zero visibility snowstorm. And these

3485
03:18:27,920 --> 03:18:34,080
Speaker 4: three sisters that were from Wahaka, who've crossed over for

3486
03:18:34,280 --> 03:18:40,600
Speaker 4: work multiple times, came worked, went back home, you know,

3487
03:18:40,959 --> 03:18:46,879
Speaker 4: for you know, whatever season, came back, worked, went back home.

3488
03:18:47,640 --> 03:18:51,040
Speaker 4: And it was my understanding that they were trying to

3489
03:18:51,440 --> 03:18:54,040
Speaker 4: save up enough money from what they made here in

3490
03:18:54,040 --> 03:18:56,600
Speaker 4: the United States to open up their own business.

3491
03:18:57,720 --> 03:18:58,039
Speaker 1: And so.

3492
03:19:00,920 --> 03:19:07,080
Speaker 4: The day came when they were crossing over the they

3493
03:19:07,160 --> 03:19:09,520
Speaker 4: came through, I think like in the Campo area, I

3494
03:19:09,640 --> 03:19:17,600
Speaker 4: think it was, and they were led by two brothers

3495
03:19:18,400 --> 03:19:25,280
Speaker 4: that had crossed previously in the same spot and knew

3496
03:19:25,400 --> 03:19:28,000
Speaker 4: the trail of which to go, but I believe it

3497
03:19:28,160 --> 03:19:31,120
Speaker 4: was their first time actually leading people through and not

3498
03:19:31,320 --> 03:19:37,280
Speaker 4: just themselves coming through, so they you know, they remember

3499
03:19:37,360 --> 03:19:42,600
Speaker 4: the way, got up close to where the shrine is

3500
03:19:42,680 --> 03:19:45,360
Speaker 4: of the shrine trail, there's a little shrine up there

3501
03:19:45,440 --> 03:19:52,720
Speaker 4: that people would you know, leave little little symbols and

3502
03:19:52,840 --> 03:20:01,920
Speaker 4: tokens and little items behind, mostly to you know, the

3503
03:20:02,000 --> 03:20:08,720
Speaker 4: Virgin of Wa Loupe. And from that point it is

3504
03:20:09,000 --> 03:20:12,360
Speaker 4: that that's the last time you can be hiking on

3505
03:20:12,440 --> 03:20:15,560
Speaker 4: that trail that far north and turn around and still

3506
03:20:15,600 --> 03:20:18,000
Speaker 4: see Mexico. Anything beyond that, it's kind of like the

3507
03:20:19,360 --> 03:20:22,240
Speaker 4: point of like you can't see Mexico, Like you've got

3508
03:20:22,320 --> 03:20:25,160
Speaker 4: to keep moving forward, You've already gone, you know. At

3509
03:20:25,200 --> 03:20:29,120
Speaker 4: this point it's close to thirty I think air miles,

3510
03:20:29,440 --> 03:20:32,280
Speaker 4: so like you know, you know, walking miles is a

3511
03:20:32,360 --> 03:20:36,600
Speaker 4: lot more than that. Yeah, And they were at this

3512
03:20:39,240 --> 03:20:46,600
Speaker 4: kind of like rock boulder outcropping just about five minutes

3513
03:20:47,320 --> 03:20:53,760
Speaker 4: walk shy of the shrine when the sisters couldn't keep

3514
03:20:53,840 --> 03:20:58,440
Speaker 4: going anymore and because of the extreme weather in the

3515
03:20:58,480 --> 03:21:02,520
Speaker 4: extreme cold, they were soaking wet from the rain and

3516
03:21:02,640 --> 03:21:06,160
Speaker 4: then the you know, sub freezing temperatures with the snowstorm,

3517
03:21:07,520 --> 03:21:12,680
Speaker 4: they couldn't keep going anymore, and so they were kind

3518
03:21:12,680 --> 03:21:18,000
Speaker 4: of huddled up underneath of this boulder. It's the only

3519
03:21:18,080 --> 03:21:19,960
Speaker 4: spot that kind of gave like a little bit of

3520
03:21:20,520 --> 03:21:25,080
Speaker 4: shelter from that storm. Yet, I mean those rocks are

3521
03:21:25,320 --> 03:21:28,480
Speaker 4: you know ice cubes, you know, being out there that long.

3522
03:21:29,240 --> 03:21:34,040
Speaker 4: So the two brothers I believe left to try to

3523
03:21:34,080 --> 03:21:37,640
Speaker 4: get cell phone signal because you know, you're you're up

3524
03:21:37,680 --> 03:21:40,480
Speaker 4: pretty high in the mountains. I think that elevation up

3525
03:21:40,520 --> 03:21:44,199
Speaker 4: there on the mountain, I think it's somewhere around five

3526
03:21:44,360 --> 03:21:48,039
Speaker 4: thousand feet. More so that that location where that we're

3527
03:21:49,480 --> 03:21:56,760
Speaker 4: where they passed away, and the brothers that took off

3528
03:21:56,760 --> 03:21:59,359
Speaker 4: to try to get cell phone range to calm you know, ems,

3529
03:22:00,000 --> 03:22:01,720
Speaker 4: which turns out to be you know, border patrol in

3530
03:22:01,760 --> 03:22:05,199
Speaker 4: that region, and so got to hold a border patrol.

3531
03:22:05,760 --> 03:22:12,640
Speaker 4: Uh border patrol arrived to where the brothers were, and

3532
03:22:12,840 --> 03:22:16,119
Speaker 4: first thing, you know, before you know, rushing to try

3533
03:22:16,160 --> 03:22:19,800
Speaker 4: to make a rescue anything, they you know, detained and

3534
03:22:20,000 --> 03:22:25,920
Speaker 4: arrested the brothers for you know, for you know, human smuggling, trafficking,

3535
03:22:26,040 --> 03:22:29,120
Speaker 4: you know, just you know, being colliotes, and then they

3536
03:22:29,240 --> 03:22:34,680
Speaker 4: put in efforts of trying to rescue. By the time

3537
03:22:35,120 --> 03:22:37,560
Speaker 4: I believe that they got to the three sisters, two

3538
03:22:37,560 --> 03:22:40,560
Speaker 4: of them had already passed away, and there was one

3539
03:22:40,680 --> 03:22:49,840
Speaker 4: that was still barely alive. Unconscious and due to the whether,

3540
03:22:49,920 --> 03:22:55,760
Speaker 4: as Border Patrol has stated, the agents, the four star

3541
03:22:56,160 --> 03:23:00,280
Speaker 4: you know rescue agents, the search and trauma rescue, they

3542
03:23:00,440 --> 03:23:04,720
Speaker 4: had to take off. They couldn't airlift the last remaining

3543
03:23:05,000 --> 03:23:09,200
Speaker 4: sister out because there's zero visibility. The helicopter couldn't even

3544
03:23:09,360 --> 03:23:12,720
Speaker 4: get like find them, couldn't get like anywhere close to them,

3545
03:23:12,879 --> 03:23:16,240
Speaker 4: couldn't hover because the wind was blown so hard. It

3546
03:23:16,400 --> 03:23:19,200
Speaker 4: was just about a whiteout condition. So, I mean, the

3547
03:23:19,320 --> 03:23:29,680
Speaker 4: most you know fucked situation possible, and Border Patrol in

3548
03:23:29,840 --> 03:23:36,240
Speaker 4: order to make sure it didn't turn into from a

3549
03:23:36,400 --> 03:23:41,320
Speaker 4: triple fatality to however many of them there were, I

3550
03:23:41,360 --> 03:23:43,320
Speaker 4: think there was three or four's that were out there,

3551
03:23:43,879 --> 03:23:47,640
Speaker 4: so to you know, in order to save their lives,

3552
03:23:48,400 --> 03:23:54,600
Speaker 4: they took off. They put the last remaining sister like

3553
03:23:54,720 --> 03:24:01,680
Speaker 4: in a like a puffy overall type of situation, and

3554
03:24:02,480 --> 03:24:05,600
Speaker 4: they they had taken her wet clothes, they cut her

3555
03:24:05,640 --> 03:24:09,000
Speaker 4: wet clothes off her, and you know, we're actively trying

3556
03:24:09,040 --> 03:24:11,959
Speaker 4: to warm her with like heat packs and wrapping her,

3557
03:24:12,560 --> 03:24:15,120
Speaker 4: and so they took off and kind of just like

3558
03:24:15,360 --> 03:24:19,560
Speaker 4: left her, you know, with basically, as I said, the

3559
03:24:19,879 --> 03:24:24,600
Speaker 4: best you know chances possible of survival even though someone

3560
03:24:24,640 --> 03:24:27,160
Speaker 4: being left on their own in that condition there's zero

3561
03:24:27,320 --> 03:24:33,080
Speaker 4: chances of survival. Border patrol took off, allegedly injured themselves,

3562
03:24:33,560 --> 03:24:38,680
Speaker 4: you know, in doing so, got frostbited, et cetera. I

3563
03:24:38,760 --> 03:24:40,840
Speaker 4: think it was the next day, came back out for

3564
03:24:41,120 --> 03:24:44,040
Speaker 4: the would turn out to be the recovery, and all

3565
03:24:44,120 --> 03:24:48,320
Speaker 4: three sisters had passed away, you know, from you know,

3566
03:24:48,400 --> 03:24:53,400
Speaker 4: freezing to death. And so as we learned about that,

3567
03:24:53,640 --> 03:24:58,240
Speaker 4: you know, as the situation was unfolding, we reached out

3568
03:24:58,320 --> 03:25:03,480
Speaker 4: to the the journalist who wrote the article in local

3569
03:25:03,600 --> 03:25:08,600
Speaker 4: San Diego Union Tribune. His name is Alex Riggins, and

3570
03:25:09,879 --> 03:25:13,120
Speaker 4: through you know, some back and forth contact, he was

3571
03:25:13,240 --> 03:25:17,800
Speaker 4: covering the trial of the two brothers that brought the

3572
03:25:17,959 --> 03:25:22,680
Speaker 4: sisters through their in court for their deaths, and reached

3573
03:25:22,680 --> 03:25:24,879
Speaker 4: out to see if we could find out any information,

3574
03:25:25,200 --> 03:25:28,960
Speaker 4: if Alex could let us know, like maybe where the

3575
03:25:29,000 --> 03:25:33,040
Speaker 4: shrine trail was, or maybe where the location of the

3576
03:25:33,280 --> 03:25:37,520
Speaker 4: recovery was, just something that we would have so we

3577
03:25:37,600 --> 03:25:39,960
Speaker 4: can put it on a map, figure out how to

3578
03:25:40,040 --> 03:25:44,280
Speaker 4: get there, and give boots on the ground to leave supplies,

3579
03:25:45,280 --> 03:25:48,760
Speaker 4: you know, a few times a year, whether it's going

3580
03:25:48,840 --> 03:25:51,080
Speaker 4: to be really hot, or really cold. We wanted to

3581
03:25:51,120 --> 03:25:56,000
Speaker 4: make sure that, you know, we responded to the crisis

3582
03:25:56,160 --> 03:25:59,280
Speaker 4: as we found out about it. There's something that we

3583
03:26:00,480 --> 03:26:05,360
Speaker 4: unfortunately have had to do all too common in this

3584
03:26:05,480 --> 03:26:08,599
Speaker 4: work is that's unfortunately.

3585
03:26:08,200 --> 03:26:10,880
Speaker 7: In the way that we learn, yeah, when it's too late.

3586
03:26:10,959 --> 03:26:12,359
Speaker 2: Sometimes yeah, yeah.

3587
03:26:12,280 --> 03:26:14,680
Speaker 4: A lot of you have to learn efforts too late.

3588
03:26:14,879 --> 03:26:18,400
Speaker 4: And that's part of our you know, expansion of areas

3589
03:26:18,440 --> 03:26:23,240
Speaker 4: that we cover. That's how we learn stuff, and that's

3590
03:26:23,280 --> 03:26:28,360
Speaker 4: how we work at preventing you know, further suffering and

3591
03:26:28,600 --> 03:26:33,520
Speaker 4: further deaths. So we got more or less a good

3592
03:26:33,760 --> 03:26:36,720
Speaker 4: location and one of our team members at the time,

3593
03:26:37,959 --> 03:26:42,360
Speaker 4: he h he went out on a weekday that he

3594
03:26:42,400 --> 03:26:45,440
Speaker 4: had off, and he just went kind of driving around

3595
03:26:45,480 --> 03:26:49,600
Speaker 4: in the area and start hiking out in this area

3596
03:26:49,680 --> 03:26:53,960
Speaker 4: that looked like from the photos that were in the

3597
03:26:54,000 --> 03:26:58,200
Speaker 4: newspaper could have been this location. And he put in

3598
03:26:58,280 --> 03:27:03,880
Speaker 4: a long hike that day and he found the clothing

3599
03:27:04,400 --> 03:27:11,560
Speaker 4: that was removed from the last he found the like

3600
03:27:11,640 --> 03:27:17,879
Speaker 4: the puffy overalls. He found a bunch of medical equipment,

3601
03:27:18,000 --> 03:27:22,800
Speaker 4: like emergency equipment that was used for you know, the

3602
03:27:22,879 --> 03:27:28,520
Speaker 4: three sisters during that process. And shortly after that, I

3603
03:27:28,560 --> 03:27:30,160
Speaker 4: think it was just like a couple of weeks, we

3604
03:27:31,760 --> 03:27:36,840
Speaker 4: got together h some of our strongest hikers, and we

3605
03:27:37,000 --> 03:27:39,720
Speaker 4: decided to go out there and leave a bunch of supplies.

3606
03:27:39,760 --> 03:27:44,959
Speaker 4: And that is it is a hard, hard hike, whether

3607
03:27:45,120 --> 03:27:48,280
Speaker 4: you're you know, carrying thirty five forty pounds on your

3608
03:27:48,360 --> 03:27:51,240
Speaker 4: back or you're just carrying, you know, a backpack with

3609
03:27:51,400 --> 03:27:53,560
Speaker 4: like a bottle of water and some food. Like, it's

3610
03:27:53,600 --> 03:27:56,960
Speaker 4: hard no matter what. So we got up there and

3611
03:27:57,000 --> 03:27:59,600
Speaker 4: we left supplies. And you know, we've been going back

3612
03:27:59,760 --> 03:28:04,400
Speaker 4: you before, seasons change, where it gets hot, it gets cold,

3613
03:28:04,440 --> 03:28:08,600
Speaker 4: and we track to see if you know, anything has

3614
03:28:08,640 --> 03:28:13,880
Speaker 4: been taken. And it doesn't appear that that trail gets

3615
03:28:14,000 --> 03:28:17,800
Speaker 4: too much use, but it does get some use. Yeah,

3616
03:28:18,520 --> 03:28:22,720
Speaker 4: So you know, I don't know if if the three

3617
03:28:22,800 --> 03:28:25,000
Speaker 4: sisters passing away there had anything to do with like

3618
03:28:25,360 --> 03:28:30,160
Speaker 4: future travel for people on the trying trail or or what,

3619
03:28:30,440 --> 03:28:35,160
Speaker 4: but you know, we made that commitment in their honor

3620
03:28:35,520 --> 03:28:38,680
Speaker 4: and to prevent anything like this ever happening again.

3621
03:28:39,280 --> 03:28:45,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, sent me a very sad, very sad situation, and like, yeah,

3622
03:28:45,520 --> 03:28:48,000
Speaker 2: it so many things have to go wrong and so

3623
03:28:48,160 --> 03:28:51,240
Speaker 2: many people have to turn a blind eye. I guess

3624
03:28:51,480 --> 03:28:53,959
Speaker 2: for the three people to die like.

3625
03:28:54,800 --> 03:28:55,600
Speaker 10: You know, there's.

3626
03:28:57,440 --> 03:29:00,520
Speaker 12: Platant negligence on the part of border Patrol very regularly,

3627
03:29:01,200 --> 03:29:04,880
Speaker 12: given that they are supposedly like as James mentioned, the

3628
03:29:05,200 --> 03:29:11,280
Speaker 12: emergency medical service that's out there, and there is outright blatant,

3629
03:29:11,840 --> 03:29:15,840
Speaker 12: deadly discrimination that occurs when it comes to providing emergency

3630
03:29:15,879 --> 03:29:20,280
Speaker 12: services for migrants. In this case, they prioritize apprehension over

3631
03:29:20,640 --> 03:29:26,600
Speaker 12: saving people. Every moment is going to count and regardless

3632
03:29:26,640 --> 03:29:29,600
Speaker 12: of what the conditions were, those are the conditions, and

3633
03:29:29,760 --> 03:29:33,320
Speaker 12: that's the story that they're reporting. I think we rightfully

3634
03:29:33,400 --> 03:29:35,879
Speaker 12: are skeptical of anything that they say when it comes

3635
03:29:35,959 --> 03:29:41,920
Speaker 12: to rescues and how they prioritize doing so when we

3636
03:29:42,120 --> 03:29:46,959
Speaker 12: have seen entirely the opposite occur on a regular basis

3637
03:29:47,280 --> 03:29:52,640
Speaker 12: when they have the opportunity to provide aid them electing

3638
03:29:52,760 --> 03:29:56,240
Speaker 12: to do so. You know, going back to Hakumba, when

3639
03:29:56,280 --> 03:29:58,520
Speaker 12: people were out there and they had nothing, They weren't

3640
03:29:58,600 --> 03:30:01,960
Speaker 12: being provided a city water for days and days and days.

3641
03:30:02,400 --> 03:30:03,400
Speaker 7: Order Patrol could have done that.

3642
03:30:03,680 --> 03:30:06,200
Speaker 12: If they are the emergency services, they could have provided

3643
03:30:06,320 --> 03:30:10,040
Speaker 12: emergency aid. When it comes to a rescue like this.

3644
03:30:10,320 --> 03:30:13,120
Speaker 12: They have the agency. They are the agency. They have

3645
03:30:13,240 --> 03:30:18,640
Speaker 12: the agency to deprioritize processing somebody for apprehension and prioritizing rescue,

3646
03:30:18,680 --> 03:30:21,440
Speaker 12: and they chose not to do it. Like time and

3647
03:30:21,520 --> 03:30:23,520
Speaker 12: time and again, we see these situations and I think,

3648
03:30:23,640 --> 03:30:25,920
Speaker 12: like when you know, before we started recording, and you asked, like,

3649
03:30:26,000 --> 03:30:27,760
Speaker 12: what's the thing that like we want to talk about

3650
03:30:27,800 --> 03:30:29,800
Speaker 12: that doesn't often get talked about, And.

3651
03:30:29,879 --> 03:30:32,400
Speaker 7: I think it's this. I think it's the.

3652
03:30:34,080 --> 03:30:37,960
Speaker 12: It's not just like the surveillance and the patrolling and

3653
03:30:38,000 --> 03:30:40,240
Speaker 12: all of that stuff that to humanizes migrants, but like

3654
03:30:40,920 --> 03:30:44,480
Speaker 12: when they're in danger, they're regarded as less than human

3655
03:30:44,600 --> 03:30:47,800
Speaker 12: by the because the only agency that's out there to

3656
03:30:47,920 --> 03:30:50,039
Speaker 12: help them is like the reason that they're in danger

3657
03:30:50,120 --> 03:30:56,279
Speaker 12: in the first place. So we have come across multiple

3658
03:30:57,520 --> 03:30:59,960
Speaker 12: search and rescues that aren't migrant related, just being out

3659
03:31:00,040 --> 03:31:03,200
Speaker 12: in the desert where either a US citizen or in

3660
03:31:03,320 --> 03:31:07,480
Speaker 12: one instance, a tourist was lost in the desert, and

3661
03:31:07,640 --> 03:31:12,480
Speaker 12: the response is night and day. When there's a migrant

3662
03:31:12,520 --> 03:31:18,400
Speaker 12: that's lost and we are calling for assistance, you know,

3663
03:31:18,680 --> 03:31:22,640
Speaker 12: any kind of can a search be initiated, can we

3664
03:31:22,800 --> 03:31:27,120
Speaker 12: get like the response is so blase and minimal, and

3665
03:31:27,240 --> 03:31:33,120
Speaker 12: there's no accounting, there's no holding them accountable for acting

3666
03:31:33,280 --> 03:31:38,840
Speaker 12: or failing to act right, and it's blatant, like and

3667
03:31:38,920 --> 03:31:42,199
Speaker 12: I think that's the thing that like the general public

3668
03:31:42,240 --> 03:31:45,560
Speaker 12: that isn't involved in this work like should know about

3669
03:31:46,080 --> 03:31:50,240
Speaker 12: how cruel it is and how little the response is

3670
03:31:50,360 --> 03:31:53,320
Speaker 12: when somebody is lost, when they're dying, when they're dead,

3671
03:31:53,680 --> 03:31:58,120
Speaker 12: like us having to call the coroner repeatedly to have

3672
03:31:59,240 --> 03:32:03,280
Speaker 12: children's bone picked up. That would not happen if that

3673
03:32:03,440 --> 03:32:06,200
Speaker 12: child was not presumed my grant. So this is like

3674
03:32:06,280 --> 03:32:08,879
Speaker 12: we have story after story after story of like situations

3675
03:32:08,959 --> 03:32:12,320
Speaker 12: like this is just one tragedy, but there's a lot

3676
03:32:12,400 --> 03:32:16,240
Speaker 12: of could have, should have, would have like on the

3677
03:32:16,480 --> 03:32:21,440
Speaker 12: end of like eight organizations that we carry, And it

3678
03:32:21,560 --> 03:32:26,440
Speaker 12: doesn't seem to ever be like a shared weight with

3679
03:32:26,640 --> 03:32:28,920
Speaker 12: any of the agencies that actually have the ability to

3680
03:32:29,040 --> 03:32:31,039
Speaker 12: respond to this kind of thing in like an organized way.

3681
03:32:31,040 --> 03:32:32,520
Speaker 7: They don't care, they don't do anything about it.

3682
03:32:33,320 --> 03:32:37,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's like so much money spent on our border, right,

3683
03:32:38,120 --> 03:32:41,680
Speaker 2: Like I remember in Houcumber, I was like sitting underneath

3684
03:32:41,720 --> 03:32:44,040
Speaker 2: this thing for shade and then I like coming like,

3685
03:32:44,040 --> 03:32:46,080
Speaker 2: oh yeah, just think us a million dollars, right, that

3686
03:32:46,200 --> 03:32:50,120
Speaker 2: little trailer with the solar panels that intercepts the signals, like,

3687
03:32:50,959 --> 03:32:52,920
Speaker 2: and they didn't give these people a bottle of water,

3688
03:32:53,400 --> 03:32:57,520
Speaker 2: like all the water came from other people, from random

3689
03:32:57,720 --> 03:33:01,879
Speaker 2: San Diego people who bought it, right, Like, and it's

3690
03:33:02,120 --> 03:33:05,000
Speaker 2: just such a strange priority, Well, not strange, it's a

3691
03:33:05,080 --> 03:33:08,400
Speaker 2: cruel and horrible priority choice, right to prioritize that kind

3692
03:33:08,440 --> 03:33:13,600
Speaker 2: of like enforcement of a human lives like which are

3693
03:33:13,920 --> 03:33:16,879
Speaker 2: being lost. And it's the same like you know, ever

3694
03:33:16,959 --> 03:33:18,840
Speaker 2: bolted in Arizona or a time, I spend a lot

3695
03:33:18,879 --> 03:33:21,959
Speaker 2: of time there. I spent a lot of time here,

3696
03:33:22,560 --> 03:33:25,400
Speaker 2: reported in Texas a couple of times. Like, it's the

3697
03:33:25,480 --> 03:33:28,320
Speaker 2: same all across the border, right, the priority is not

3698
03:33:28,440 --> 03:33:32,400
Speaker 2: rescuing people. It's and it's not even particularly enforcing the

3699
03:33:32,520 --> 03:33:35,520
Speaker 2: law as it's written, it's just stopping people coming.

3700
03:33:35,360 --> 03:33:40,720
Speaker 12: Here selectively though, yeah, selectively, because they do let a

3701
03:33:40,760 --> 03:33:44,199
Speaker 12: significant amount of people through, Like even like in Hakumba,

3702
03:33:44,600 --> 03:33:49,080
Speaker 12: when people that weren't familiar with this whole kind of

3703
03:33:49,280 --> 03:33:51,560
Speaker 12: like smoke and mirror show of the border were coming

3704
03:33:51,640 --> 03:33:53,520
Speaker 12: and responding, they were saying, like, well, why are they

3705
03:33:53,640 --> 03:33:57,200
Speaker 12: letting them through? Why is this open over here? Why

3706
03:33:57,280 --> 03:34:00,600
Speaker 12: is like the amount of surveillance, you know, We've had

3707
03:34:00,640 --> 03:34:02,160
Speaker 12: people come out on water drops and say like, oh,

3708
03:34:02,200 --> 03:34:03,320
Speaker 12: should we be hiding the water?

3709
03:34:03,400 --> 03:34:04,160
Speaker 11: Should we be doing this?

3710
03:34:04,280 --> 03:34:04,440
Speaker 8: And that?

3711
03:34:04,520 --> 03:34:06,600
Speaker 11: Should we like they have eyes on the whole desert,

3712
03:34:07,000 --> 03:34:12,120
Speaker 11: So yeah, it's they do there. The point is to

3713
03:34:12,160 --> 03:34:16,080
Speaker 11: stop people from coming through, but not completely right, is

3714
03:34:16,120 --> 03:34:18,000
Speaker 11: that labor that's coming through.

3715
03:34:18,800 --> 03:34:19,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, that.

3716
03:34:21,120 --> 03:34:23,800
Speaker 12: They're they're selective, and how much they like, you know,

3717
03:34:24,320 --> 03:34:28,000
Speaker 12: how much the gasket is being opened and shut.

3718
03:34:28,959 --> 03:34:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and in different sectors at different times, like it

3719
03:34:32,000 --> 03:34:34,360
Speaker 2: seems like things are done and even like, yeah, there

3720
03:34:34,400 --> 03:34:37,000
Speaker 2: are The other thing I think that people who don't

3721
03:34:37,040 --> 03:34:39,640
Speaker 2: live on the border don't realize is to what degree

3722
03:34:40,080 --> 03:34:42,960
Speaker 2: every single person here, whether they give a shit or not,

3723
03:34:43,400 --> 03:34:47,400
Speaker 2: is surveiled because they live near the border. Like, yeah,

3724
03:34:47,440 --> 03:34:49,840
Speaker 2: but we saw them twenty eighteen with a lot of

3725
03:34:50,240 --> 03:34:52,760
Speaker 2: a lot of friends of mine who can't go to

3726
03:34:52,879 --> 03:34:58,160
Speaker 2: Mexico anymore, right, who have flagged passports. Yeah you too, Yeah,

3727
03:34:59,240 --> 03:35:01,640
Speaker 2: so many people I know. I Yeah, I don't know

3728
03:35:01,680 --> 03:35:03,200
Speaker 2: how I went over a ton at that time, but

3729
03:35:03,440 --> 03:35:07,600
Speaker 2: I guess managed to avoid it. But yeah, it's it's that.

3730
03:35:07,879 --> 03:35:10,120
Speaker 2: And then like I have been in the middle of

3731
03:35:10,240 --> 03:35:15,280
Speaker 2: nowhere in the desert and found cameras, surveillance towers, right like,

3732
03:35:16,800 --> 03:35:20,680
Speaker 2: stuff that would not be the constitution is largely irrelevant,

3733
03:35:20,879 --> 03:35:25,160
Speaker 2: but like there wouldn't be legal or just like unjustifiable

3734
03:35:25,400 --> 03:35:29,440
Speaker 2: anywhere else, And like this spans from here to like

3735
03:35:29,520 --> 03:35:33,800
Speaker 2: our Otum friends in Arizona to Texas, right like, if

3736
03:35:33,840 --> 03:35:37,480
Speaker 2: you live on the border, like or any within one

3737
03:35:37,560 --> 03:35:40,120
Speaker 2: hundred miles of the border, right, the border can come

3738
03:35:40,200 --> 03:35:41,920
Speaker 2: to you. It doesn't matter if you care or not.

3739
03:35:42,000 --> 03:35:46,000
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter if you consider yourself to be like

3740
03:35:46,320 --> 03:35:49,400
Speaker 2: an immigrant to the US, or if you've sort of

3741
03:35:50,120 --> 03:35:51,920
Speaker 2: decided that that doesn't apply to you or you don't

3742
03:35:51,920 --> 03:35:55,200
Speaker 2: care about those people like then it doesn't matter that

3743
03:35:55,320 --> 03:35:58,520
Speaker 2: surveillance still impacts you, and often it impacts like our

3744
03:35:58,560 --> 03:36:02,040
Speaker 2: indigenous friends, right like my my all time friend Kumii

3745
03:36:02,160 --> 03:36:05,160
Speaker 2: friends had the grave yards bulldose to build the wool.

3746
03:36:05,879 --> 03:36:08,680
Speaker 2: And yeah, even if you don't care, even if you

3747
03:36:08,720 --> 03:36:11,440
Speaker 2: think the wall is great, that your cell phone still

3748
03:36:11,440 --> 03:36:12,480
Speaker 2: there through distinct ray down.

3749
03:36:13,680 --> 03:36:15,760
Speaker 10: I know, it's wild, Like how much people who are

3750
03:36:15,879 --> 03:36:19,680
Speaker 10: like very you know, right wing anti like.

3751
03:36:20,560 --> 03:36:23,040
Speaker 12: You know, pro like freedom and all this stuff like

3752
03:36:23,280 --> 03:36:27,400
Speaker 12: will very readily give up those freedoms and in exchange

3753
03:36:27,480 --> 03:36:32,160
Speaker 12: for like constant surveillance, like if it justifies the means

3754
03:36:32,200 --> 03:36:34,360
Speaker 12: of like you know, their big try or like whatever,

3755
03:36:34,480 --> 03:36:37,320
Speaker 12: like their worldview is like they're they're suddenly like very

3756
03:36:37,400 --> 03:36:40,000
Speaker 12: pro border patrol, very pro CP, very T. Well that's

3757
03:36:40,040 --> 03:36:42,400
Speaker 12: like in direct conflict with like everything else that they're saying.

3758
03:36:42,720 --> 03:36:45,119
Speaker 2: Right, but yeah, it's freedom for who I guess.

3759
03:36:45,959 --> 03:36:49,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, well also goes with the same people are saying, well, well,

3760
03:36:49,600 --> 03:36:50,840
Speaker 4: not breaking the law, then what do you have to

3761
03:36:50,920 --> 03:36:53,680
Speaker 4: do about Yeah, well everything starts with the border. So

3762
03:36:53,920 --> 03:36:57,920
Speaker 4: the surveillance, the facial recognition, the plate scanners, all that

3763
03:36:57,959 --> 03:37:00,960
Speaker 4: stuff started the border. And now we see that just recently,

3764
03:37:01,200 --> 03:37:04,640
Speaker 4: like the San Diego City Council approved to have the

3765
03:37:05,320 --> 03:37:07,800
Speaker 4: like the streetlight eras and all that kind of the

3766
03:37:08,000 --> 03:37:11,080
Speaker 4: lamps and all those you know, hundreds of cameras that

3767
03:37:11,160 --> 03:37:12,720
Speaker 4: are going to be out there with that same type

3768
03:37:12,720 --> 03:37:17,200
Speaker 4: of technology, and like, well, if you're not breaking the law,

3769
03:37:17,200 --> 03:37:19,320
Speaker 4: it's like okay, we'll give a little bit of time

3770
03:37:19,400 --> 03:37:23,119
Speaker 4: until you're not breaking law, and then like stuff still happens.

3771
03:37:23,240 --> 03:37:27,960
Speaker 4: I mean, that's that's how you know things, you know, Snowball.

3772
03:37:28,200 --> 03:37:31,520
Speaker 2: Hey, everyone. Shortly after we finished talking about why San

3773
03:37:31,560 --> 03:37:36,960
Speaker 2: Diego's lamp posts are also spies. My internet once again died.

3774
03:37:38,080 --> 03:37:40,000
Speaker 2: So that's what we're going to end it today. It's

3775
03:37:40,000 --> 03:37:43,480
Speaker 2: already been a long episode. But what I would like

3776
03:37:43,560 --> 03:37:47,959
Speaker 2: you all to know is that you can find Border

3777
03:37:48,040 --> 03:37:51,000
Speaker 2: Kindness online. You can find them on Instagram. You can

3778
03:37:51,080 --> 03:37:55,160
Speaker 2: find James there Brolo el Cordero prott to be able

3779
03:37:55,200 --> 03:37:56,840
Speaker 2: to work out how to spell that, and you can

3780
03:37:56,879 --> 03:37:59,240
Speaker 2: find them on Facebook, and you can find them on Instagram,

3781
03:38:00,120 --> 03:38:03,000
Speaker 2: and you can pretty much find them anywhere you go

3782
03:38:03,120 --> 03:38:07,959
Speaker 2: on the internet by searching Border Kindness, and like James said,

3783
03:38:08,080 --> 03:38:10,720
Speaker 2: they in his I'm looking at his Instagram profile right now,

3784
03:38:10,840 --> 03:38:14,160
Speaker 2: so it's Brolo el Cordero. I guess b r O

3785
03:38:14,520 --> 03:38:17,640
Speaker 2: l O e l c O r d e r O.

3786
03:38:18,520 --> 03:38:20,720
Speaker 2: James has a wish list, an Amazon wish list, so

3787
03:38:20,760 --> 03:38:22,760
Speaker 2: if if you're not close to San Diego, then you

3788
03:38:22,840 --> 03:38:25,960
Speaker 2: can you can just click on that and buy them something.

3789
03:38:26,040 --> 03:38:28,320
Speaker 2: I'm sure you could collect donations and send those as well.

3790
03:38:29,200 --> 03:38:30,640
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of different ways you could help.

3791
03:38:31,600 --> 03:38:33,600
Speaker 2: But I hope you all enjoyed this. If you're in

3792
03:38:33,680 --> 03:38:35,680
Speaker 2: town and you want to help, go hike with them

3793
03:38:35,959 --> 03:38:37,800
Speaker 2: and you can reach out to them on social media

3794
03:38:37,879 --> 03:38:40,440
Speaker 2: as well, and I'm sure they'd be happy to hear

3795
03:38:40,520 --> 03:38:45,520
Speaker 2: from you. Thanks so much for listening, Goodbye, Hey.

3796
03:38:45,640 --> 03:38:48,720
Speaker 1: We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week from

3797
03:38:48,800 --> 03:38:50,440
Speaker 1: now until the heat death of the Universe.

3798
03:38:51,080 --> 03:38:53,400
Speaker 7: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

3799
03:38:53,680 --> 03:38:56,320
Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

3800
03:38:56,360 --> 03:38:58,560
Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

3801
03:38:58,600 --> 03:39:02,000
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

3802
03:39:02,440 --> 03:39:04,560
Speaker 6: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

3803
03:39:04,640 --> 03:39:07,640
Speaker 6: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

3804
03:39:07,840 --> 03:39:08,640
Speaker 10: Thanks for listening.