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Speaker 1: care professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue,
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Speaker 1: heart Media or their employees. I don't think so before
Speaker 1: become anybody has set up such a big impact and
Speaker 1: this yoga has given the newest so much employment to
Speaker 1: the students. So that's how he misuses data, hard their
Speaker 1: money and their dedication. There low about yoga. Dozens of
Speaker 1: folks going through dozens of yoga poses led by a
Speaker 1: charismatic speedo clad guru in a one five degree room.
Speaker 1: What could go wrong? Well, apparently a lot. And such
Speaker 1: is the story of Bickrum Yoga, a yoga brand founded
Speaker 1: by Bickrum Chowdhry that his followers believed was life changing. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: as often happens, when a person starts calling themselves a guru,
Speaker 1: things got really toxic, really fast. Chowdery style was contemptuous,
Speaker 1: gas lighting, dismissive, and at times megalomaniacal. Teacher trainings were
Speaker 1: notoriously brutal, but people swore by the yoga, claiming it
Speaker 1: healed what was ailing them, making Chowdhry a very wealthy
Speaker 1: and powerful man. Over the years, numerous women came forth
Speaker 1: with allegations of sexual impropriety and abuse. Insiders within the
Speaker 1: organization enabled him, and ultimately, in two thousand and sixteen,
Speaker 1: a culmination of lawsuits and ongoing accusations lad him to
Speaker 1: flee the United States. People came to bick Rom yoga
Speaker 1: from a place of trust, belief, commitment to healing, and
Speaker 1: devotion to their guru slash teacher. Sadly, these are the
Speaker 1: perfect conditions under which an unempathic, grandiose, entitled and charismatic
Speaker 1: man can take advantage of people who want to believe.
Speaker 1: We'd like to begin monthy is if you could just
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your life in India
Speaker 1: and your start in pursuing yoga, Because I know you
Speaker 1: you practice a very devoted way. So how did that
Speaker 1: all begin for you. First of all, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for having me there. And it's a nice opportunity
Speaker 1: for me to be there with you. So I started
Speaker 1: my yoga journey in a very early age and during
Speaker 1: my graduation because I have done my master in Physical
Speaker 1: education from Haryana. So we have a subject yoga. So
Speaker 1: it depends on which sports we took to pursue it
Speaker 1: in the future. I started in two thousand one my
Speaker 1: yoga journey and that's how I you know, showing all shorts,
Speaker 1: my interest and my whoby tool. It's like more of
Speaker 1: sports for me is more important than doing something else
Speaker 1: sitting at home. Okay, So that's how the yoga comes
Speaker 1: in my life. And so it's been like almost maybe
Speaker 1: more than twenty years. I'm doing yoga. That's great, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. What a funny journey. Right, But there's doing
Speaker 1: yoga and there's doing yoga. You really do it, you're
Speaker 1: in it. What made yoga more of a passion for you?
Speaker 1: I started as a company, you know, as a sport
Speaker 1: in my yoga life in my graduation, but when I
Speaker 1: left after competing, I have competed many times in India
Speaker 1: a championship inter college into university. I have achieved so
Speaker 1: many gold medals in I got seven gold medals in
Speaker 1: inter university, five to six gold medals into college. So
Speaker 1: that's how I start loving yoga. But somehow, what happens
Speaker 1: in India, You study and then you got married. You know,
Speaker 1: you finished your studies. When you get mad, that's the
Speaker 1: end basically, And that same thing happened with me. I've
Speaker 1: been so many things and then I got married. But
Speaker 1: unfortunate in my life, I lost my husband car accident.
Speaker 1: Oh I'm so sorry. Yeah, my son was only two.
Speaker 1: I was a mother on that time and he passed away.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, you're a new mother now. My son
Speaker 1: was only two months on that time. Oh you're a
Speaker 1: new mama for two months old baby, and your husband
Speaker 1: died in a car accident. I am, I am so sorry. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you continued yoga now on that time, I was
Speaker 1: left with the emptiness, gone through so much stress and
Speaker 1: the depression. It's not only like you lost somebody, as
Speaker 1: you lost everybody around you, even you're in lass, even
Speaker 1: your neighbors or they surround you and they start giving
Speaker 1: you the advice, which is don't need it on that
Speaker 1: time that Peter was very tricky for me. Like I
Speaker 1: started as a teacher as a yoga teacher in the
Speaker 1: one school on that time, a job so that I
Speaker 1: can support myself and my son and to take care
Speaker 1: of myself basically, and there was a very less money
Speaker 1: on that time. So but what I was doing it,
Speaker 1: I was just so much depression and so much pressure
Speaker 1: in my head. I will not be able to cope up.
Speaker 1: Then I started like, no, this is not going to happen.
Speaker 1: Then I choose to compete again as a state level
Speaker 1: or as a national championship because that's what I was
Speaker 1: before to get mad. So then I thought, you, okay,
Speaker 1: this is my last chance. Let me try one more time.
Speaker 1: I competed at the state level, I won the gold medal,
Speaker 1: then completed the national in the gold medal. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: then I entered into the international championship. That's how the
Speaker 1: journeys started one by one. That's how I went to
Speaker 1: US to participate the international championship. There was a vision
Speaker 1: that's a big deal. That's a really it's a huge
Speaker 1: deal to me. A national champion in a country of
Speaker 1: a billion people already is huge in and of itself,
Speaker 1: but then to go to the international competition is quite remarkable,
Speaker 1: and especially in the wake of having gone through such
Speaker 1: a difficult time. And this is an American podcast, I
Speaker 1: don't know that our listeners necessarily will appreciate the context
Speaker 1: of marriage and family in India and the meanings around it.
Speaker 1: And to be a young woman who has lost her
Speaker 1: husband is it's a very complicated space, I mean within laws,
Speaker 1: especially when there's a child involved, and so as much
Speaker 1: as that would be extraordinarily stressful and grief filled in
Speaker 1: the United States, it's at an entirely different level in
Speaker 1: India that carries so much more sort of cultural heaviness
Speaker 1: to it too. So your journey is all the more
Speaker 1: remarkable for the barriers you came through. And it sounds
Speaker 1: like at that point competitive yoga was part of your
Speaker 1: process of of going through grief. Now in this extraordinary journey,
Speaker 1: you've come to the International Yoga Championship in the United States,
Speaker 1: and it was at that point your routine at those
Speaker 1: international championships caught the attention of Big Rum child Ry.
Speaker 1: Could you take a moment here and just educate us
Speaker 1: on exactly what big Rum yoga is. He never invented
Speaker 1: the postures. He just invented the heat. So he took
Speaker 1: the postures from his group. Is a book already. It
Speaker 1: is in the documentary where they said this all the
Speaker 1: postures he chooses in the making a series, all our
Speaker 1: posts taught by his guru in their Calcutta the studio.
Speaker 1: So he took the postures and he invented. He put
Speaker 1: the dialogues in it, and that's how we started teaching yoga.
Speaker 1: So that's he says, in the name of hot yoga. Okay.
Speaker 1: So it's combining a series of yoga poses from us
Speaker 1: in a yoga in a in a certain sequence and
Speaker 1: adding the heat. But the post has always existed, always, always,
Speaker 1: all the postures what drew you to backround. So there
Speaker 1: is a big change to shift my yoga journey to
Speaker 1: like normal yoga to hot yoga, basically because Big Round
Speaker 1: is known for a hot yoga classes in the US.
Speaker 1: When I entered into US, so I was having so
Speaker 1: many problems physically or mentally or emotionally. I was not
Speaker 1: fit for that. Pushing myself, I was weak. I was
Speaker 1: showing I'm strong on that time, but from inside I
Speaker 1: was weak. I was very big to you know, to
Speaker 1: take the step ahead. I was going through some skin
Speaker 1: issues after having a baby. I don't know what happened.
Speaker 1: I got a skin issues after the delivery. I was
Speaker 1: having a skin problem. So when I entered into the
Speaker 1: US and I just did my first class over there
Speaker 1: hot yoga, I have seen the changes into my skin.
Speaker 1: And I was taking medication every three days before and
Speaker 1: when I started doing hot yoga, it was like a
Speaker 1: five to six days rest. I didn't took any medication.
Speaker 1: That was the first sign for me. I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: maybe this yoga can treat me physically first and maybe
Speaker 1: mentally later on. I took Courage for the first class
Speaker 1: was the worst class for me by I never thought
Speaker 1: this type of yoga is going to be around. I
Speaker 1: was thinking, like, people are crazy. Why they're doing yoga?
Speaker 1: I know how room? Why why they're sweating so much?
Speaker 1: In India is totally different. We do yoga in open parks.
Speaker 1: We do yoga, you know, with lots of big spaces.
Speaker 1: There's nobody's troubling you. But over there, there was like
Speaker 1: a heated room and there was a packed room. There's
Speaker 1: no door open, there's no windows open, and everybody is
Speaker 1: there just doing for the nine timbers class. I did
Speaker 1: the first class and I almost like touch the death
Speaker 1: first class, and it took me so much power to
Speaker 1: go back in the second class. But I think medically
Speaker 1: it really helped me to choose Bickram yoga and then
Speaker 1: the normal yoga because I was getting medicated benefit from
Speaker 1: hot yoga. Did you come to the United States and
Speaker 1: take the hot yoga classes before you met Backroom at
Speaker 1: the International Championship? So you met him first. I met
Speaker 1: him first because we were there as a competitor as
Speaker 1: India president, so we were there only for ten days.
Speaker 1: In the US. They said that if you want to
Speaker 1: do what they announced, if you want to do hot yogas,
Speaker 1: so there's a hot yoga class in the evening to
Speaker 1: all the competitors around the world. We're coming to compete,
Speaker 1: So we decided to go there. So I understand why
Speaker 1: the hot yoga itself was so compelling to you. Was
Speaker 1: there anything about big Room Childery himself as a human
Speaker 1: being that made him compelling to you, that drew you
Speaker 1: towards him as a person. So when I first saw
Speaker 1: bick Room during the championship, so he was sitting down
Speaker 1: judging everybody, and I mean, like you know, so we
Speaker 1: are the competitors. So we were practicing and here and
Speaker 1: there with the teams and everything. So I first saw
Speaker 1: him and I met him and I finished my routine
Speaker 1: on the stage. I finished my performance and then when
Speaker 1: I stepped down, he came to me and he said,
Speaker 1: you're really good. You know it. To focus more on
Speaker 1: your alignments and don't focus only on the flexibility part.
Speaker 1: Focus on the strength and the standina do ahtoga classes.
Speaker 1: Get it done. Then I said, okay, thank you so much.
Speaker 1: So for me on that time, if somebody is giving you,
Speaker 1: why is as a teacher, as a gurgle has the
Speaker 1: championship and competing with on that time. So for me
Speaker 1: in India, guru is everything. We respect our guru too much.
Speaker 1: Any time there is a teacher or a so called
Speaker 1: guru where there is an anticipation of devotion or adoration,
Speaker 1: there can be a really slippery slope. It creates a
Speaker 1: problematic power imbalance, and it can also harm the ability
Speaker 1: to be discerning if a person feels that they can
Speaker 1: never critically evaluate or disapprove of a guru's inappropriate behavior.
Speaker 1: The danger of obligatory obedience or devotion can be a
Speaker 1: set up for a very dangerous relationship. Every teacher who
Speaker 1: taught us still today even starting two tho. All the
Speaker 1: teachers and we have so much respect for them, and
Speaker 1: for me it was changing my life. Who's going to
Speaker 1: change my life? If I was saying so, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: we respect all the groups on that time, that was
Speaker 1: my mentality to while seeing him like okay, I should
Speaker 1: respect him as a girl, should give my gratitude to him.
Speaker 1: Talk to me about that mindset Monday, because I think
Speaker 1: that's an important issue here that you say we respect
Speaker 1: our groups too much? Right, what do you think is
Speaker 1: the risk in that? Basically it is all about your
Speaker 1: mental status, how much you trust your own thoughts. We
Speaker 1: know the line as a guru that we can only
Speaker 1: take that much from the person until an honless it
Speaker 1: is healthy for us or it is good for us.
Speaker 1: But if you think it now, he's going to he's
Speaker 1: getting maybe which I don't need it, and he's trying
Speaker 1: to give me that. I might take my step back
Speaker 1: on that time and I will say I don't need this.
Speaker 1: I am here to learn from you the yoga. If
Speaker 1: you're going to teach me something else more than yoga.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to take that part. Okay. I was
Speaker 1: in the need of who can push me physically mentally
Speaker 1: to make me more stronger than anybody else. I'm going
Speaker 1: to be video. But if you're going to push me down,
Speaker 1: taking the name of the yoga and break me more
Speaker 1: into million pieces, I'm not going to take that thing,
Speaker 1: I might say. And on that time, do you feel
Speaker 1: like you did that? Do you feel like you tried
Speaker 1: to push you down and break you into a million?
Speaker 1: Many times that was a journey for my teacher training,
Speaker 1: not on men. I was there as a competitor. As
Speaker 1: a competitor. When I was there, it was so much
Speaker 1: helping or so much You're from India. I'm from India,
Speaker 1: so Indian helps Indian, you know. And when Bacom tried
Speaker 1: to break you down, like you said, if you try
Speaker 1: a guru should not do that. But when he did,
Speaker 1: was your initial impulse then to walk away to say
Speaker 1: I don't want this. When I went to the teacher
Speaker 1: training program, when I signed the paper, I was standing
Speaker 1: with the two other people. There was one Indian teacher
Speaker 1: who actually pushed me to come out from my trauma
Speaker 1: and start doing something with my life. So he was
Speaker 1: also with me, and so he finished the class and
Speaker 1: he came to me and he told he didn't came
Speaker 1: to me. He told somebody else that is that goal
Speaker 1: know how to do massage. And I said, yes, I'm
Speaker 1: a professional therapist. And then it's okay, bring it over.
Speaker 1: He's just bring it immediately. He put the towel down
Speaker 1: in the office and he lied on in the office
Speaker 1: with the people are standing outside, and I went inside.
Speaker 1: He said, okay, take the oil, let's do it. And
Speaker 1: I was like, okay, first of all, this is not
Speaker 1: the right place to do it. You can you can't
Speaker 1: just slide down on the floor and start making somebody
Speaker 1: to I'm not ready for it. I didn't came for
Speaker 1: the massage. It was all going in my head and
Speaker 1: I'll not be able to express my feelings because I
Speaker 1: don't know how to do it. There was no English
Speaker 1: words for me to say it. So I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's do your job. When they let's start, and I
Speaker 1: start massaging it like half an hour, it goes to
Speaker 1: one hour. My hands started feeling numb, my fingers was
Speaker 1: feeling numb, and I don't know how to say, I'm
Speaker 1: getting tired now, I can't do it anyway. And he
Speaker 1: was just just lie down, not even talking, not even
Speaker 1: saying anything. And then I said, can I go? He said, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: go go. So that's my wife first interaction as a
Speaker 1: student on that time. But I didn't feel really good
Speaker 1: about that. Maybe as a profession maybe I say yes
Speaker 1: to it, but not as a teacher, training as a trainer,
Speaker 1: as a training program. So that was not my priority.
Speaker 1: If I want to do massages, there's enough massages in
Speaker 1: I can do it, and I can from the patients.
Speaker 1: I can run my show. But that was not my passion.
Speaker 1: My passion was yoga. When a powerful, manipulative person takes
Speaker 1: advantage of multiple vulnerabilities, as we see happening with Man Deep,
Speaker 1: she is far from home. She sometimes just didn't know
Speaker 1: the right words to communicate with in English. She was
Speaker 1: indoctrinated to respect the Guru no matter what. When an
Speaker 1: inappropriate ask like give me a massage is made, people
Speaker 1: can feel almost dissociated and go along with it. But
Speaker 1: it's as though the nervous system freezes up a bit
Speaker 1: and a person just goes along. It's not as though
Speaker 1: they're really consenting to it. This can set up a
Speaker 1: deeply uncomfortable precedent in a toxic relationship, especially when there's
Speaker 1: a power difference, and can also leave a person in
Speaker 1: a situation like this blaming themselves for going along. Also,
Speaker 1: other people looking at the situation from the outside may
Speaker 1: also fall into the usual aiming rhetoric of well, you're
Speaker 1: the one who agreed to do the massage. After that experience, though,
Speaker 1: when he laid down and asked you to give a massage,
Speaker 1: it's not what you had signed up to do. It
Speaker 1: wasn't part of the course. How did you feel about
Speaker 1: the course at that point? It was kind of like,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe maybe that was only once in a
Speaker 1: once time and maybe not going to happen again during
Speaker 1: the program. I think it's the end for me. It
Speaker 1: was the end only one, and that's the end. Now
Speaker 1: my yoga journey starts. So I never thought that it's
Speaker 1: going to happen again and again and again and again.
Speaker 1: That was not my thought. And secondly, it's lots of
Speaker 1: money I have invested, you know, and I'm far away
Speaker 1: from my house. Yes, that's my last two chance, you
Speaker 1: know for me, there was no twice for me, there
Speaker 1: was no option. I have to finish the training. I
Speaker 1: have to prove myself that this is the only large
Speaker 1: chance you can do it. Yeah, there's something you said
Speaker 1: that's so interesting to me because in your case, it
Speaker 1: was literal monthy. At the time, you didn't feel you
Speaker 1: knew English as well. So when this initially was starting
Speaker 1: to happen, you said, I literally didn't have the words
Speaker 1: in English to express my feeling for what was happening.
Speaker 1: That was literal right. But so many people in that
Speaker 1: same situation, viewing the yoga teacher, especially someone like Big
Speaker 1: Rummas as powerful and as a guru and as a teacher,
Speaker 1: they may have had perfect command of English, but also
Speaker 1: felt that they did not have the words to describe
Speaker 1: what was happening at that moment because there was so
Speaker 1: much conflict inside of them. This is supposed to my guru,
Speaker 1: But this man is asking me to do something so inappropriate.
Speaker 1: What do I do? You know? What am I feeling?
Speaker 1: And it's a confusing feeling. And for you, you literally
Speaker 1: felt I didn't have the word. But I think anybody
Speaker 1: in your situation would not have known what to do.
Speaker 1: But I think I have the right answer for that.
Speaker 1: It isn't my words. He is India and he has
Speaker 1: built up such a big empire in us on that time.
Speaker 1: He has such a good impact in front of people.
Speaker 1: He changed I don't know how many thousand lives only
Speaker 1: by teaching yoga. So he has a power, he has
Speaker 1: the money, he has a good product in the hand,
Speaker 1: and he's so good into playing games through the mind.
Speaker 1: He can change the next person mine and when you
Speaker 1: played them like whatever I am saying, whatever I am
Speaker 1: doing is right. I don't think so. Before become anybody
Speaker 1: has set up such a big impact as a yoga
Speaker 1: and this yoga has given in us so much employment
Speaker 1: to the students. It's a health cluss money is It's
Speaker 1: like a physical and the mental benefit together. So that's
Speaker 1: how he misuses their effort, their money and their dedication,
Speaker 1: their love about yoga and who is giving them. So
Speaker 1: I think he kind of trapped everybody's mind that whatever
Speaker 1: is gonna if you're gonna say massage me, massage me,
Speaker 1: calm my hair, they start calming his hair, Press my legs.
Speaker 1: They started press his legs. Indian guru never does that.
Speaker 1: I know it. I'm from India. Being a girl maybe man.
Speaker 1: You can't say that there is a gender like men
Speaker 1: can do massages to men, you know, touches his feet
Speaker 1: or massaging his feet, but Indian Guru never let any
Speaker 1: women touch their feet or massages their hair. What I
Speaker 1: just my question and I saw like people like students
Speaker 1: climbing calmbing his hair. The question like why they're doing
Speaker 1: that did never happen in India? Why everybody is following
Speaker 1: this routine teaching yoga, practicing, making a speech, inspiring people
Speaker 1: is good, but this is not what guru is. Guru
Speaker 1: signature is what full cloths from top to bottom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it sounds like though he was abusing his power. He
Speaker 1: had this big impacts the money, so he was abusing
Speaker 1: that power and really showing people have the power. You're
Speaker 1: sitting here, you're combing my hair, You're you're massaging my legs.
Speaker 1: That's a show of power, and that's an abusive power,
Speaker 1: quite frankly abusive power. So big from himself become Childery
Speaker 1: is such a strong personality. But at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, he founded this system of yoga called bicker
Speaker 1: of yoga. So you not only came, you did the
Speaker 1: international competition now you're going to go to his teacher training.
Speaker 1: What did you hope would come from the teacher training?
Speaker 1: Did you intend to want it and go back to
Speaker 1: India and then do the hot yoga classes in India?
Speaker 1: Definitely yes, because my plan was that only if I
Speaker 1: do the teacher training program, maybe I'll start working somewhere,
Speaker 1: or maybe I opened my own studio in India. I
Speaker 1: can't start or yoga classes because nobody was on that
Speaker 1: time known to hotel in India. Now not even a
Speaker 1: single studio that I'm interesting. Something that's come up in
Speaker 1: the way that many people talk about Big Rum is
Speaker 1: that he's very charismatic, you know, very big character, big presence,
Speaker 1: almost like a performer. Did you have that experience of him, Yes,
Speaker 1: during the teacher training program, So he basically I think charactor.
Speaker 1: I don't know. He kind of attention seecret. He wants
Speaker 1: everybody attention so much. You can also become like me,
Speaker 1: You can also like me. Yes, yeah, Well he was promised.
Speaker 1: It was a promise that you could have this life,
Speaker 1: this success. I think that was very much how he
Speaker 1: was he was approaching it. He shows the dreams to everybody, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: He shows the dreams to people. I agree. My session
Speaker 1: with Mondy will continue after this break. What was the
Speaker 1: teacher training like? Because I've read and listened to many
Speaker 1: reports about it, and people have described the teacher training
Speaker 1: is having very strict rules and very strict requirements, and
Speaker 1: these were very long days for some nine ten weeks,
Speaker 1: and they weren't allowed to use the bathroom, and they
Speaker 1: had to stay up very late in the night, and
Speaker 1: people were getting sick. Did you have an experience like
Speaker 1: that as you went through the training, Yes, definitely. That
Speaker 1: was the first training hour. I felt that my life
Speaker 1: goes up up and down. So for me, it depends
Speaker 1: how strong you are. Okay, the first thing, I don't
Speaker 1: say that I was the one who was strong enough
Speaker 1: to handle that program. I made myself. So for me,
Speaker 1: whatever comes in front of me, I'm going to cross.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what happened. It doesn't matter how many
Speaker 1: times have false stick, doesn't matter, how many times I
Speaker 1: feel tired, doesn't matter, how many times I have buked,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. So for me, everything was just behind my bath.
Speaker 1: I want to put grabbed in front of me and
Speaker 1: throw it back. It's like that. I don't care. I
Speaker 1: don't care. Let's do it. Let's finish this nine week.
Speaker 1: Let's finish this nine week. The documentary titled bick Rum
Speaker 1: Yogi Guru Predator lays out the grueling nature of the
Speaker 1: yoga teacher training and month Deep had this experience as well. Certainly,
Speaker 1: intensity may be a part of any kind of physically
Speaker 1: demanding training program, but when that gets coupled with deprivation
Speaker 1: and control, for example, not being permitted to use a
Speaker 1: bathroom and being mocked for wanting to do so, or
Speaker 1: being subjected to sleep deprivation, that's when we veer into
Speaker 1: very toxic territory and the narcissistic and culti space of
Speaker 1: boundary violations and breaking people down in the name of
Speaker 1: obedience to a program and its leader. Mund Deep herself
Speaker 1: talks about valuing the discipline that this process required, but
Speaker 1: also acknowledged it's too much. Intensity is fine, but dehumanization
Speaker 1: is not for me. It was not going in the
Speaker 1: challe and the challenge was for learning English, learning the dialogues,
Speaker 1: giving the dialogues in front of four people and practicing
Speaker 1: at the same time, and that was a challenge for me.
Speaker 1: And then the rest of the practice. So like It's
Speaker 1: like how you say that I love the discipline, but
Speaker 1: sometimes it's like over just too much. It's too much,
Speaker 1: and the too much is not good for everybody. I
Speaker 1: don't think it's good for anybody. Yeah, yeah, nobody, but
Speaker 1: those who were hanging there was no nothing left. Maybe
Speaker 1: they can survive, but the rest of the them, they
Speaker 1: think I'm dying. Oh this that, and I can say
Speaker 1: that it could be people are like that, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe one percent. I like that. Okay, I don't give
Speaker 1: a damn about it. How long? This is so man deep?
Speaker 1: Now I want to talk to you a little bit
Speaker 1: more about the process of grooming and the process of
Speaker 1: abuse that happened through getting to know the system of
Speaker 1: Big Rum Yoga and Big Rum himself and going through
Speaker 1: this training program. You know, again, the way this program
Speaker 1: was is it really pushed people to a limit. Like
Speaker 1: I said, the isolation many of you are far from home,
Speaker 1: restricting even the most basic bodily functions like using the
Speaker 1: bathroom is I know a lot of it was about strength,
Speaker 1: but what did it feel like at the time? You
Speaker 1: know how, I guess my question would be, how did
Speaker 1: you think about it or even rationalize that this is
Speaker 1: how this program was organized. So I think it is
Speaker 1: designed in such a way to hold the people mind,
Speaker 1: so make sure they don't think anything else, only the yoga.
Speaker 1: Only that you are stuck for the night mixed with us.
Speaker 1: You can't go out, you can't think about anything else.
Speaker 1: You have to do it. So there was a certain
Speaker 1: things we just designed in such a way. And nobody
Speaker 1: has a choice because everybody signed the paper and everybody
Speaker 1: invested the money into it. But a few people will
Speaker 1: come up and say that I don't want to do
Speaker 1: give me my money back, right. Ultimately, the fact is Monday,
Speaker 1: when people hear stories like this, they say, Okay, you're
Speaker 1: in a room, it's very hot. They're pushing you. He's
Speaker 1: even insulting people. He's making fun of what they look
Speaker 1: like and making insulting their body and saying you can't
Speaker 1: go to the bathroom. A lot of people will say
Speaker 1: I'm going to leave. I'm walking out of this room.
Speaker 1: And what you're saying is somebody who was there. You've
Speaker 1: invested all this money, you actually believe in this. You
Speaker 1: see a bigger career coming out of this. And I
Speaker 1: would argue you're sitting in one hundred and four degrees temperature.
Speaker 1: You're not thinking straight if you're that hot. Right, That's
Speaker 1: what happened in the teacher training program. Everybody minds us
Speaker 1: stuck or not only not to just say no, it
Speaker 1: was like OK, yes, yes, yes, there is no time
Speaker 1: for s know that you have to do it. So
Speaker 1: everything is built up very slowly and gently to change
Speaker 1: their mental system, to change their mentality. What the thing?
Speaker 1: How you think you're supposed to be like that. You're
Speaker 1: supposed to be behaved. If you're a trainer, you're supposed
Speaker 1: to do massage, you're supposed to go on his hair
Speaker 1: or I don't think so. Even a single lady came
Speaker 1: up and said, I don't want to do this. I
Speaker 1: didn't came from here for this. So that's how everybody
Speaker 1: got black mail somehow or maybe block mentally blocked, like
Speaker 1: they want to say it, but they are not able
Speaker 1: to say it right. And I also think that there
Speaker 1: is that sense of he has elevated himself to such
Speaker 1: a position of people want to be close to him.
Speaker 1: You say, oh, he's the leader, he's the guru, he's
Speaker 1: the teacher. When that person selects you, come brush my hair,
Speaker 1: come massage my legs. Unfortunately as part of a grooming process.
Speaker 1: It's a part of a process of a person feeling
Speaker 1: special in that moment. Exactly, there's a four student and
Speaker 1: he picks up only goals four to five girls, and
Speaker 1: those four to five girls thinks, Oh, maybe I'm good
Speaker 1: in yoga, or maybe I'm doing very good in dialogues,
Speaker 1: or maybe I can be a good teacher. I can
Speaker 1: teach in his studio. So everybody's thinking that they're doing
Speaker 1: something good. That's how that's why maybe he's calling you.
Speaker 1: But there's always you can understand why this if you
Speaker 1: want to prove yourself in yoga. Like when I went
Speaker 1: for one massage before the championship, then I went for
Speaker 1: my second. When he called me during the night, it
Speaker 1: was like almost two o'clock, two o'clock in the night,
Speaker 1: like they start from seven am, finish at eight o'clock,
Speaker 1: nine o'clock, go home and do the dinner at the
Speaker 1: hotels where you're staying. And being a vegetarian. For me,
Speaker 1: I was in a Las Vegas no Vegetatian food. I
Speaker 1: have to just survive on the cheese pizza, cheese pizza
Speaker 1: every single day. I had the cheese pizza in goodness.
Speaker 1: So he invited you to his room at two in
Speaker 1: the morning. Yeah, so he called somebody called that girl
Speaker 1: called the goal. So they called me like when they
Speaker 1: can you come over to Vicram suit like I said,
Speaker 1: it's two o'clock, like, yes, become it's calling you, like okay,
Speaker 1: And I never asked any other question. I went over
Speaker 1: there and I don't know, maybe he wants to talk
Speaker 1: to me. And he said, okay, take the bottle, come here,
Speaker 1: and I'd like, I didn't care for that for the
Speaker 1: massage two o'clock in the morning, and then I was
Speaker 1: in shock. On that time. I was like, seriously, I
Speaker 1: just finished, like I have to sleep, I have a class.
Speaker 1: But I didn't say anything to him that was in
Speaker 1: my head. Yeah, there are two things that are jumping
Speaker 1: out here. First, let's talk about sleep control and abusive
Speaker 1: relationships and something we actually don't talk about enough. Sleep
Speaker 1: is as essential as food or water, and controlling that
Speaker 1: or interrupting that is a part of coercive control dynamics
Speaker 1: as well. Now, in this case, it appears that not
Speaker 1: only was Bickram so entitled that he believed that waking
Speaker 1: someone up at who am while they were sleeping simply
Speaker 1: for his pleasure in his massage was not an issue.
Speaker 1: It also speaks to a massive lack of empathy. His
Speaker 1: behavior reflects his willingness to view mun deep as basically
Speaker 1: being in his service. He actually fell asleep during the massage,
Speaker 1: and it appears that he never even took note of
Speaker 1: or considered that this is a human being who has
Speaker 1: been woken up to do this. It's the middle of
Speaker 1: the night. That means she's not sleeping and she has
Speaker 1: a class in the morning. That complete lack of recognition
Speaker 1: of her personhood or the need of another person is
Speaker 1: a signature of a toxic, narcissistic person. I was confused,
Speaker 1: what's going on? Maybe maybe second time I started massaging,
Speaker 1: everybody was outside, he was inside, and then I was massaging.
Speaker 1: He slept one hour, and he slept and I was
Speaker 1: still there. And then I thought he was gonna say
Speaker 1: monthy plus go now you can go, Now you can go.
Speaker 1: But he didn't even bother to say me, I'm sleepy,
Speaker 1: you can go, mane. And when I was trying to
Speaker 1: move my head, just press my feet. Yeah, I pressed
Speaker 1: my toes, And then at the end I said, I
Speaker 1: have a class in the morning. Seven, Can I leave?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, sorry, sorry, I forgot So I left the
Speaker 1: room and I was like half sleepy, half full tired.
Speaker 1: This happened gradually, and so he didn't ask anything in
Speaker 1: the first massage, he didn't ask anything in the second massage.
Speaker 1: He didn't said anything on the third. So it was
Speaker 1: like process. He was building up to make sure that
Speaker 1: I should feel comfortable going over that. Okay, I have
Speaker 1: to only do this is my job, and you to
Speaker 1: do massa, you have to do like classes, you have
Speaker 1: to do teaching, the learning. This is It was like
Speaker 1: building up in my head. Okay, this is also part
Speaker 1: of the job. Now you're not only learning here, you
Speaker 1: also Okay, that's okay, keep doing it, Mondy, you don't
Speaker 1: have a choice. Let's do it then. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: I gave up one period of time, like maybe my first, second,
Speaker 1: third week or something after like finishing two weeks or
Speaker 1: third week. He called me again. So that's how I
Speaker 1: say this is not right. Something is there. I was
Speaker 1: not feeling good about it. The first feeling of the
Speaker 1: bad when he told me, and he was sitting on
Speaker 1: the sofa. The daughter was sitting next to him in
Speaker 1: his lap. Imagine the situation. The daughter is sitting on
Speaker 1: the lab. I entered in the room. The two teacher
Speaker 1: was sitting on the other sofa. Four teachers are sitting
Speaker 1: somewhere else, and he told me sit on the sofa.
Speaker 1: I sat on the sofa. He lift his leg and
Speaker 1: put on my lap and he said, oh press. I
Speaker 1: felt like I am not servant. Your daughter is sitting
Speaker 1: on your lap. Ask your daughter to massage your feet.
Speaker 1: She has a right to do it, not me. Emotionally
Speaker 1: and psychologists somewhere inside, I was feeling very very low,
Speaker 1: you know, like using as a servant. You know, that's
Speaker 1: the time I felt what I'm doing, Why I'm here
Speaker 1: and so many people are looking at me and I
Speaker 1: massaging his feet? This is something I would then know
Speaker 1: that's not right, You're doing wrong. That's the first time
Speaker 1: I felt like that was a wrong decision to come
Speaker 1: to the teacher training. I didn't sign up for this.
Speaker 1: You want to sign my feet. I can amost aidle
Speaker 1: my father's feet, I canmost side my mother field, I
Speaker 1: can massage, feed and on money right here, man Deep
Speaker 1: says she made the wrong decision to come to the
Speaker 1: teacher training. That sounds like self blaming language. She made
Speaker 1: the decision to come to the teacher training in the
Speaker 1: service of her career. Is that a wrong decision? What
Speaker 1: was wrong was that the so called guru teacher was
Speaker 1: using his power to subjugate someone who came to the
Speaker 1: training in good faith, someone who was thousands of miles
Speaker 1: from home. When we pathologize our decisions, I shouldn't have
Speaker 1: done this, I shouldn't have done that, what we miss
Speaker 1: is that in toxic relationships, we often make decisions in
Speaker 1: good faith based on the assumption that the other person
Speaker 1: is going to behave appropriately. The problem in these circumstances
Speaker 1: is the toxic person's behavior, not your decision to do
Speaker 1: something that made sense personally or professionally. I do sign
Speaker 1: up for this, so that's the time it broke my heart. No,
Speaker 1: there's so much you have to see and feel what's
Speaker 1: going on to understand the things. That's the point where
Speaker 1: I felt like, okay, that's something is not right and
Speaker 1: did discontinue that. You kept getting called to do these
Speaker 1: massages repeatedly during the training period. Yes, after third, fourth massage,
Speaker 1: third massage, when I this hapn't the incident. I told
Speaker 1: you so. After a couple of plays, he called me again.
Speaker 1: He never called directly. He always tells somebody else to
Speaker 1: call yes, yes, So like, okay, come over what he's
Speaker 1: calling you? So I thought it's become a routine for
Speaker 1: me on that time. Do the massage, do the yoga,
Speaker 1: do the treat of training program, massage, and go home
Speaker 1: sileep for two hours, get back again. That was like
Speaker 1: I was following, like keep doing it. And then I
Speaker 1: started massaging him and he told me like I was
Speaker 1: rubbing a legs and the massaging and doing this, and
Speaker 1: he grabbed my hand and he put my hand on
Speaker 1: his private part and then I lift my hand. I
Speaker 1: was in a shock. I respect you as a group.
Speaker 1: I can't do this. I was already on the edge
Speaker 1: on that frustration level massaging too many times and the
Speaker 1: time when he told me like, oh, I'm calling you,
Speaker 1: not for the massage, I'm calling for this. Yeah, this
Speaker 1: is supposed to we have to do, you know. So
Speaker 1: I thought like, now I can't do this. You're my guru.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. Can I leave? And he said it's okay,
Speaker 1: I say nobody. I rushed entered my room and I
Speaker 1: started so sorry. I said, the only thing. It came
Speaker 1: in my head, what are you doing here Monday? And
Speaker 1: the one thing only came in my head is my
Speaker 1: son face. I said, I'm not I'm so far away.
Speaker 1: I lost my husband, my son is far away from me.
Speaker 1: I invested so much of my power, so much my strength,
Speaker 1: so much my money, and I'm here only for this.
Speaker 1: What what should I do now? And then I called
Speaker 1: the guy who who bring me to the teacher training program. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I called him. I told him I want to meet
Speaker 1: you right now. He said, what happened? I want to
Speaker 1: meet you right now? Can you meet? Yes? It was
Speaker 1: a night. I went to his room and I hugged
Speaker 1: him and I told him this, what happened. Why he's
Speaker 1: telling me to do it? Why he's thinking I'm that
Speaker 1: type of girl who can do I can't do this.
Speaker 1: I didn't sign up for this. And then he said,
Speaker 1: like when they maybe some misunderstanding or maybe you miss
Speaker 1: judge the prodect. I never just I know what is this?
Speaker 1: Somebody will tell me to do the messages private part.
Speaker 1: I know what is happening. I'm not that down good
Speaker 1: for you. Maybe I'll not be able to express my
Speaker 1: feelings in English or whatever, but I surely know what
Speaker 1: is wrong, what is right, and this is wrong, this
Speaker 1: is not right. Then he asked me, like, now, what
Speaker 1: are you gonna do. I was in the middle of
Speaker 1: the training. I said, listen, I want to leave. I
Speaker 1: don't want to do this program. I don't I didn't
Speaker 1: sign up for this. I want my money because I
Speaker 1: have earned for it. I don't have the Pope show anymore.
Speaker 1: Like I don't want my money back. I want to
Speaker 1: go right now. And he told me, okay, when they
Speaker 1: you know, let's talk in the morning. And I said,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to him. I don't want
Speaker 1: to see his face. He said, okay, talk to his
Speaker 1: family member. Then I go, whom should I talk? Wife? No,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to talk to wife. I don't know
Speaker 1: what is happening. It's not appropriate. Then okay, the niece left,
Speaker 1: who was taking care of the teacher training program. So
Speaker 1: I said, okay, I'm going to talk to the knee.
Speaker 1: So the next morning, when I wasn't going for the class,
Speaker 1: I called his knees and I told very clearly, listen,
Speaker 1: this happened to me last night. I am here only
Speaker 1: to larn yoga. Please, I just want to go back
Speaker 1: to give me my money back, please, that's my brand question.
Speaker 1: And then she told me, no, you know, I believe
Speaker 1: something this understanding happened. When they don't worry, I'll talk
Speaker 1: to the No, no, not need to talk to anybody.
Speaker 1: You just get my money back. That I'm not interested
Speaker 1: anymore to this strict training program and let me talk
Speaker 1: to him. Okay, talk to him then let me know.
Speaker 1: Then I don't know what happened. She talked to him
Speaker 1: or whatever. Then she came in the afternoon and told me, like,
Speaker 1: what's want to talk to you? Like, no, I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk to anybody when they listen. He didn't
Speaker 1: want to talk to you, And I said, I'm not interested.
Speaker 1: So once again, here we are with the necessary ingredient
Speaker 1: for every toxic leader, for every narcissist, the enabler. Now,
Speaker 1: not only has mun Deep shared that the teacher who
Speaker 1: told her about the class told her that what happened
Speaker 1: between her and Bickram was a misunderstanding. Now Bickram's niece,
Speaker 1: who works for the program, is saying the same thing.
Speaker 1: Narcissistic systems are shaming, gas lighting, and denying systems framing
Speaker 1: something is just being a misunderstanding is a classical gambit
Speaker 1: not just by abusers, but by the people who enable them.
Speaker 1: The challenges that the enablers are not always as charismatic
Speaker 1: or charming in that same way as the toxic leaders,
Speaker 1: but in many ways they can do just as much
Speaker 1: harm because they will often blame the person who was
Speaker 1: abused or harmed in the name of self interest or
Speaker 1: because of their own trauma, bonds to the toxic leader,
Speaker 1: or very likely both of those things are happening. I
Speaker 1: sat all the way back behind before I was sitting
Speaker 1: in the front next to his chair, the boss chair
Speaker 1: on that day, I said all the way back his
Speaker 1: lecture was going on. He finished the lecture. There was
Speaker 1: a twenty minutes break on that time, and he went outside.
Speaker 1: I was not putting attention to listening. His lectures not
Speaker 1: interesting in training. I lost my track at that time,
Speaker 1: and he went outside. He waited for me. I don't
Speaker 1: know what I was doing. I maybe in the head
Speaker 1: that when he's going to come to me and talk
Speaker 1: to me, I'm not going to talk to anybody. I'm done.
Speaker 1: He went outside. He came before before starting his lecture.
Speaker 1: He came back all the way down. He sat next
Speaker 1: to me on the chair and he told me when
Speaker 1: they I'm really sorry if you felt something like that,
Speaker 1: but that was not my intention. You continue with your
Speaker 1: teacher training program. Don't leave. It is good for you.
Speaker 1: You need this, you invested the money, You're good in yoga,
Speaker 1: you're a very good goal you're hard working girl. I
Speaker 1: don't want you to leave everything in the middle. Finish
Speaker 1: your teacher training program and it's not gonna happen again.
Speaker 1: And really saw it for that, and he left after
Speaker 1: saying all the source. And then I talked to the
Speaker 1: the guy again, my friend, that this happened, and he said,
Speaker 1: it's okay. Maybe some misunderstanding happen or maybe whatever. Why
Speaker 1: you want to leave, why you want to your money back.
Speaker 1: You finish the teacher training already in the halfway, you know.
Speaker 1: And I said, give me some time. I'll think about
Speaker 1: it and maybe then after, you know, in the evening,
Speaker 1: I thought, like, okay, if he said sorry, maybe he
Speaker 1: need it's okay. If somebody says sorry forgive, that's fine.
Speaker 1: And that's how I continued my teacher training after that.
Speaker 1: Beware the toxic apology. It's likely that the enablers who
Speaker 1: were focused on damage control, protecting the leader, and protecting
Speaker 1: the brand, told him that this behavior is not okay,
Speaker 1: not because it hurt mun Deep, not because it was
Speaker 1: a violation of trust, not because it was abuse, but
Speaker 1: most likely because it would be bad for the Big
Speaker 1: Room empire. So his apology, like many narcissistic apologies, was
Speaker 1: a non apology, and what month Deep shared here is
Speaker 1: a classical toxic maneuver. He says, it was not my intention,
Speaker 1: and before that, she recalls him saying, I'm sorry if
Speaker 1: you felt something like that. Those are not apologies. There
Speaker 1: is no taking of responsibility, no awareness that harm was done, Nope,
Speaker 1: and does leave one wondering what then was your intention?
Speaker 1: And waking up a person in the middle of the
Speaker 1: night asking her to massage you and then putting her
Speaker 1: hand on your penis kind of leaves you wondering, right,
Speaker 1: what the hell was your intention? My session about Big
Speaker 1: rom Yoga will continue after this break, so that was
Speaker 1: not the end. Then what happened? I didn't knew all
Speaker 1: this during my teacher trading. After that this was going
Speaker 1: on behind my back. After a couple of days break,
Speaker 1: their families start going calling me for the massages. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say anybody's name. One lady came
Speaker 1: for the massage, invited me. Then the second lady came
Speaker 1: invited me for the massage. I don't know why. I
Speaker 1: don't know how. I think they was trying to prove
Speaker 1: that because he's not the only one who's taking massages,
Speaker 1: there are women too, you should feel comfortable and he's
Speaker 1: not doing anything wrong, so we we all are into that.
Speaker 1: I don't know what was the propaganda. So I massaged
Speaker 1: one lady, the checking lady. It was all fine. I
Speaker 1: was comfortable doing that, which okay because I was calculating
Speaker 1: in my head, what's going on, what's going on? What
Speaker 1: happened next? And after three to four massages, then my
Speaker 1: teacher training gets over. Then it was fine. After that,
Speaker 1: he was not harassing me physically anymore. Here we are
Speaker 1: seeing an attempt at normalizing the abuse. It speaks to
Speaker 1: how entrenched his family was in maintaining the toxic system.
Speaker 1: By requesting her to come massage women, they were attempting,
Speaker 1: most likely to neutralize his behavior. In this fashion, enablers
Speaker 1: can become co conspirators and co perpetrators. I think there
Speaker 1: was so much things were going on behind my back.
Speaker 1: I felt like I was left over in the teacher training.
Speaker 1: So I finished my teacher training and I got my
Speaker 1: certificate and I left us. I was in a contact
Speaker 1: with family and the big room also at that time.
Speaker 1: It's like a never ending process, like he tried to
Speaker 1: prove that he never did anything wrong to me, but
Speaker 1: I know it was wrong. And I got to know
Speaker 1: all this. Then I got a mail from one of
Speaker 1: the nurses who worked Elizabeth Mainfield messaged me like written
Speaker 1: everything like mandep, is something happened with you in the
Speaker 1: teacher training program and physical abuse or something. And I
Speaker 1: heard the first case when somebody filed a complaint against
Speaker 1: Wigram that he's actually harassed the first case. So maybe
Speaker 1: I contacted Elizabeth or she connected with me, so I
Speaker 1: have no yeah, yeah, I understand. Yeah. So she asked
Speaker 1: that question something happened within the teacher training program because
Speaker 1: I think there is something muddy behind it, And I said,
Speaker 1: why you're asking me this question? So she told me, like,
Speaker 1: when you were in the teacher training program, the girls
Speaker 1: came to me and they told me like stay away
Speaker 1: from the mandeep. She is bad mouth girl. She is
Speaker 1: a lesbian, she touches girls in the wrong way, She's
Speaker 1: not mentally healthy, and they're trying to prove that I
Speaker 1: am maybe I'm not a good goal. And I told Elizabeth, listen,
Speaker 1: this is not because I was bad or something. It
Speaker 1: was because they knew if when they can come up
Speaker 1: and told his family member that he did this to me,
Speaker 1: so she can spread the word all the teacher training,
Speaker 1: all the training is around. Okay, So any of you
Speaker 1: out there listening who are a narcissistic abuse savvy, you
Speaker 1: already know what this is. A classical smear campaign. Any
Speaker 1: time a person communicates with an abuser or about an
Speaker 1: abuser to their enablers, you can set a clock by
Speaker 1: their willingness to recruit those flying monkeys, those people willing
Speaker 1: to do their bidding and spread untruths about you. I
Speaker 1: have to tell you, Mundy, I so much respect for
Speaker 1: you at the beginning of this. My respect for you
Speaker 1: now knows no bounds to be in a situation like
Speaker 1: you were, with the amount of difference in power that
Speaker 1: he had in that situation, and you did to have
Speaker 1: him abuse you the way he did for you, refusing
Speaker 1: to say I'm not going to sit with this man
Speaker 1: and hear this to know the something bad happen, to
Speaker 1: not be talked out of it. With all these people saying,
Speaker 1: maybe it's a misunderstanding, maybe it's a misunderstanding. You're a
Speaker 1: very rare woman, because most people this experience, when your
Speaker 1: entire reality is being doubted, it's called gas lighting. Most
Speaker 1: people crumble under that and doubt themselves. And then when
Speaker 1: you add onto that this next thing that happened, of
Speaker 1: people now accusing you of all kinds of things, we
Speaker 1: call that a smear campaign that often breaks people, and
Speaker 1: that didn't break you is really it is. It's quite
Speaker 1: remarkable in the face of the grooming and the abuse
Speaker 1: that you experienced, because it's absolutely awful, and in this
Speaker 1: circumstance where you actually thought you'd be safe practicing yoga,
Speaker 1: learning from a guru. I'm so grateful for your story Monthly,
Speaker 1: because many survivors things in that moment, can we actually
Speaker 1: stand our ground? And in your case, you did. You
Speaker 1: said I'm not going to sit there and I'm not
Speaker 1: going to be talked out of this. You did finally
Speaker 1: talk with him and he said sorry, and you wanted
Speaker 1: to believe that. And while it didn't happen again, what
Speaker 1: happened after that? Exactly? That was the biggest shock of
Speaker 1: my life because the moment I heard that statement from
Speaker 1: the one girl who actually put it against the wise.
Speaker 1: When I read her statement, what he did, this is
Speaker 1: my action like Monday, this is the same thing happened
Speaker 1: with you. And he repeated the same word, same actions
Speaker 1: to the next coming girls. And I have no idea
Speaker 1: how many goals he has used before my training or
Speaker 1: after my training correct, And I was like, thank god
Speaker 1: I was not part of his ship. He has to
Speaker 1: be punished, he has to say sorry about his actions.
Speaker 1: So let's talk about that idea of punishment. Do you
Speaker 1: feel that he's had to face consequences that he has
Speaker 1: had to face the punishment? He escaped, right, he did escaped,
Speaker 1: But what I think maybe he escaped physically, but mentally
Speaker 1: he is spoiled, he's dead. Mentally. He made such a
Speaker 1: big empire. He puts so much hard work into this yoga,
Speaker 1: He put his soul to make this business so big.
Speaker 1: When people have so much respect and love for you,
Speaker 1: and when everything is ruined because of your actions, that's
Speaker 1: the biggest downfall for that man. And mentally he has
Speaker 1: already punished, but physically he's not. No, No, I mean
Speaker 1: I I agree with you in part. I think that
Speaker 1: he is not able to come here to the United
Speaker 1: States live his lavish life. That there's been a downfall.
Speaker 1: People are changing the names of the studios Hot Yoga,
Speaker 1: they're not putting his name on them anymore. And while
Speaker 1: he does travel around much of the world as a
Speaker 1: free man and gets to keep teaching, and I shuddered
Speaker 1: to think, may still also be harming other people. Nobody
Speaker 1: looks him with respect anymore. You're right, right, yes, So
Speaker 1: what does punishment for a narcissist really look like? Very
Speaker 1: often we do not see criminal or even civil penalties.
Speaker 1: But mon Deep nailed it when she said, basically he
Speaker 1: lost face and in essence he lost narcissistic supply. And
Speaker 1: perhaps that is the ultimate punishment for a narcissistic or
Speaker 1: toxic person. What else he has on not what India,
Speaker 1: we say that if you don't have money, it's okay,
Speaker 1: If you don't have power, it's okay. But if everybody respected,
Speaker 1: that's everything you can live on that. And he lost
Speaker 1: the respect, he's a dead man for us. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: so knowing that and Obviously it's not a full consequence, right,
Speaker 1: there were not you know, people were financially harmed, people
Speaker 1: were physically harmed. There's no consequence for that. It's more
Speaker 1: of an existential punishment he's faced. So tell me, do
Speaker 1: you still believe in your Of course I do. I
Speaker 1: believe yoga before when I started, I believed more when
Speaker 1: I come over from my all the problems, I still
Speaker 1: believe it because it is not for me anymore. It
Speaker 1: is for the rest of the people who are practicing yoga,
Speaker 1: because I change my life, and I don't know how
Speaker 1: many womans are facing the same problems physically, mentally or whatever.
Speaker 1: So it is for me. You know, every time I
Speaker 1: stand on the stage and teach, I felt, maybe I
Speaker 1: can change this person life. That doesn't matter how but
Speaker 1: I can't even put a one seed into that dead body,
Speaker 1: and maybe it can grow slowly and gradually. So that's
Speaker 1: the only one thing for me. I still teach, still practice,
Speaker 1: not for others, for myself because I want to be happy,
Speaker 1: I want to feel good, I want to be feel healthy.
Speaker 1: I don't want stress in my life. I don't want
Speaker 1: depression in my life anymore. So whenever I'm doing. I'm
Speaker 1: doing for myself and for others. These are my takeaways
Speaker 1: from my conversation with Mondy first monthy story is a
Speaker 1: reminder about that most toxic of apologies, I'm sorry you
Speaker 1: feel that way. If someone comes at you with that,
Speaker 1: your narcissist alarms should be blaring because that's not an apology,
Speaker 1: it's a questioning about how you're feeling. There is no
Speaker 1: taking of responsibility and no awareness that you were harmed.
Speaker 1: In our next takeaway, as a world, we need to
Speaker 1: stop putting faith in charismatic gurus or other grandiose folks
Speaker 1: who behave badly under the mantle of healing. There is
Speaker 1: no yoga pose in the world, no healing mantra that
Speaker 1: would ever excuse abusive, contemptuous behavior. Sadly that charismatic, grandiose
Speaker 1: healer types are hucksters that have been around since the
Speaker 1: dawn of time. It requires everyone to stop worshiping the
Speaker 1: so called spiritual gurus and recognize that any healing we
Speaker 1: do is about us. Next, the power of someone like
Speaker 1: a biquum is something we see with many people with
Speaker 1: narcissistic personalities. They are confusing and they are really confusing
Speaker 1: when it gets mixed in with something like a form
Speaker 1: of yoga that people really value that they are able
Speaker 1: to use to start a business and have their own
Speaker 1: lucrative yoga practice as well. The dissonance between the magic
Speaker 1: of the yoga, the training, and the livelihood that comes
Speaker 1: from that being groomed in the setting to agree to
Speaker 1: his inappropriate request for massages makes it all but impossible
Speaker 1: for a person in a situation like this one to
Speaker 1: be discerning and to set boundaries. This story had an
Speaker 1: additional wrinkle. These trainings were expensive, and for many students,
Speaker 1: including month Deep, the idea of walking away from that
Speaker 1: much money was not realistic. And many toxic relationships are
Speaker 1: made more harmful because people make deals with themselves. They
Speaker 1: say to themselves, let me just get through this period
Speaker 1: of time, or in this case, let me just get
Speaker 1: through this training and then I can get out of
Speaker 1: this situation. But the problem is that continuing to participate
Speaker 1: in a toxic relationship or situation like this takes a
Speaker 1: toll on a person. It may feel as simple as
Speaker 1: let me just finish the training and everything will be fine. However,
Speaker 1: often it won't be fine because the abuse harms you
Speaker 1: and stays with you. I've said this before and I
Speaker 1: will say it again. A toxic leader can only do
Speaker 1: their damage with enablers, So don't underestimate the power of
Speaker 1: the enablers. Even if a person is not toxic but
Speaker 1: keeps rationalizing the problematic behavior in a system, Oh maybe
Speaker 1: it's all a misunderstanding that can actually really harm other people.
Speaker 1: Don't be an enabler and be cautious with the enablers
Speaker 1: that you encounter. They may have seemed like your friend
Speaker 1: or ally until you call out the toxic behavior of
Speaker 1: a narcissist in your midst Thank you to all of
Speaker 1: you for sending in the questions and listening to navigating narcissism.
Speaker 1: In this next question, someone asks, what is your advice
Speaker 1: to a therapist or mental health care professional who has
Speaker 1: married into a narcissistic family system. You know, it's interesting
Speaker 1: that this person saying it's either a therapist or mental
Speaker 1: health care professional, it's gonna be the same advice to
Speaker 1: anyone who marries into a narcissistic family system. However, I
Speaker 1: do think there's something tricky when it's a therapist or
Speaker 1: a mental health professional who marry who marries into such
Speaker 1: a system a. You're gonna be a lot more aware
Speaker 1: of some of these toxic patterns, but you're going to
Speaker 1: have no more of a magic wand to fix this
Speaker 1: in any of us. That's that's the fact, is that
Speaker 1: mental health care professional wizard, um, you know, sort of
Speaker 1: special forest fairy doesn't matter. You're not gonna be able
Speaker 1: to fix this. But here's the difference. One piece of
Speaker 1: advice I'd say is very important for somebody who has
Speaker 1: that background as a therapist or a mental health care professional,
Speaker 1: is that they may start using you as a free shrink,
Speaker 1: such as the entitlement of narcissistic family systems. So be
Speaker 1: careful of that and ensure you set boundaries. The second pieces,
Speaker 1: and it's not clear to me from your question, but
Speaker 1: let's say the person you married is not narcissistic, but
Speaker 1: the members of their family are kind of be a
Speaker 1: soft touch here. What you don't want to do is
Speaker 1: just sort of go right up into your partner's face
Speaker 1: and say your your your husband, wife's spouse. Don't roll
Speaker 1: up into their face and say, yo, your family is
Speaker 1: a bunch of narcissists. That's a lot. But what you
Speaker 1: do want to do is be very aware of how
Speaker 1: your partner perhaps is affected by their family, because if
Speaker 1: you can see that they're regularly being hurt or disrespected,
Speaker 1: you may very well be the first time that your
Speaker 1: spouse or partner is hearing a voice telling them, yeah,
Speaker 1: the way they're treating you isn't okay. That validation can
Speaker 1: really be important to the connective tissue of your relationship.
Speaker 1: Where this gets really problematic and potentially tricky is if
Speaker 1: the person you married is not seeing that the patterns
Speaker 1: in their family are toxic. Then again, I will tell
Speaker 1: you make it about the patterns. Don't say how can
Speaker 1: you not see that your father is a narcissist, but
Speaker 1: instead to say, I just want to come in and
Speaker 1: talk to you about some of these patterns that your
Speaker 1: father is showing. You may very well find out that
Speaker 1: your spouse is justifying or rationalizing that might be evidence
Speaker 1: of their long standing trauma bonds. But you, with your
Speaker 1: training as a therapist, hopefully we'll be able to then say,
Speaker 1: you know, let me frame this is why this isn't healthy,
Speaker 1: or also use it as a jumping off place to
Speaker 1: the boundaries that you need to set, because you could
Speaker 1: do in a very supportive way be able to educate
Speaker 1: a spouse or partner about why these patterns are unhealthy,
Speaker 1: how they're affecting you, and together as a couple ideally
Speaker 1: be able to set boundaries with this system. Marrying into
Speaker 1: a narcissistic family system can also have bigger implications. For example,
Speaker 1: if you have your own children, then these are going
Speaker 1: to be your kid's grandparents, aunts and uncles. As a result,
Speaker 1: you want to have these conversations before those kinds of
Speaker 1: things happen, ideally, so the proper boundaries can be set
Speaker 1: early and you're not having to sort of build the
Speaker 1: airplane in the sky. I think in some ways when
Speaker 1: it comes to narcissistic relationships, being a therapist or a
Speaker 1: mental health professional of any kind is both a blessing
Speaker 1: and a curse. In a way, you can see the
Speaker 1: patterns for what they are, but in another some ways
Speaker 1: where I think we feel even more helpless because we
Speaker 1: know there's other things we can take on. But also
Speaker 1: you may also have to absorb that radical acceptance of
Speaker 1: h yeah, yeah, what have I gotten myself into. I
Speaker 1: may love this person I married, but damn this is
Speaker 1: going to be along hard ride with their family, So
Speaker 1: good luck with that. A big thank you to our
Speaker 1: executive producers Jada Pinkett Smith, Valon Jethrow, Ellen Rakaton and
Speaker 1: Dr Rominey Drvassla. And thank you to our producer Matthew Jones,
Speaker 1: associate producer Maria Dela Rosa, and consultant Kelly Ebling. And finally,
Speaker 1: thank you to our editors and sound engineers Devin Donnihe
Speaker 1: and Calvin Bailiff