1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Welcome to the piked in Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio 2 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: and Katie Studios. Four members of the Wagner family are 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: in prison awaiting death penalty trials for the murder of 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,320 Speaker 1: eight members of the Rodent family. 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,120 Speaker 2: Four suspects are Billy and Angela Wagner and their sons 6 00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 2: George the Fourth n j. 7 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 3: These four individuals are now in custody for legilate committing 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 3: this heartless, ruthless, cold blooded murder. 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: Two others have been charged with helping to cover up 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: the grizzly crime. 11 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 4: Rita Joe Nukam and Fridrika Kirol Wagner under house arrest 12 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 4: connected to the killings of eight members of the Rodent family. 13 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 4: The judges said bond at one hundred thousand dollars. 14 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: But while Ohio's largest murder investigation brings the alleged killers 15 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: to stand trial, it also raises some unsettling questions about 16 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: the victims themselves. 17 00:00:49,080 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 5: There had been reports of scuffles with other people in public. 18 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 5: There were indications that they were involved in some drug 19 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 5: deals and drug trade. 20 00:00:57,440 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 6: Law enforcement yet. 21 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 2: To say if the extensive Maria Wanna grow operation they 22 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,279 Speaker 2: found is connected to the death. 23 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: And now two years after the arrests, the residents of 24 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,120 Speaker 1: Pikes in Ohio are conflicted about what really happened on 25 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: the early morning of April twenty second, twenty sixteen. 26 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 7: I think there's more to it, and I don't know 27 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:17,479 Speaker 7: if we'll ever get the truth about it, to be. 28 00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 1: Honest with you, this is the Pikeson Massacre, Episode four 29 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: Alternate Theories. In the last episode, we examine the motive 30 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: that authorities believe lie at the center of the brutal 31 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: killings of eight members of the Rodent family, a feud 32 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: between Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden over the custody of 33 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: their two and a half year old daughter, Sophia. Though 34 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 1: it is important to remember that the Wagners are all 35 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: innocent until proven guilty, there is mounting evidence to support 36 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: the custody theory. Still, nearly two years after the arrests, 37 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:01,160 Speaker 1: some residents of Pikes in Ohio are conflicted about their guilt. 38 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 5: You know, the BCI, you know, in the state of Ohio, 39 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 5: poor County. 40 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 6: They're not really wanting to spend a lot of money 41 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 6: on it. Somebody did it, but it wasn't them. It 42 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 6: just doesn't make sense to me if they are innocent, 43 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:14,799 Speaker 6: because who else would do that. 44 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 8: I wish we knew exactly what happened. 45 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 7: I know people kill people over custody, but not that 46 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 7: many people. I think there's more to it. It's bigger 47 00:02:25,480 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 7: than what people think it is, and I don't know 48 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 7: if we'll ever get the truth about it. To be 49 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 7: honest with. 50 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: You, that's exactly what we're going to explore in this episode. 51 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KAT Studios. With Stephanie 52 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: Leidecker and Jeff Shane, we worked on a documentary about 53 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: the case back in twenty nineteen. 54 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 4: One thing the three of us know for sure is 55 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 4: that the Rodents did not deserve this by all accounts, 56 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 4: they were just a loving and caring family, and their 57 00:02:56,440 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 4: loss is felt throughout the entire community. And that's really 58 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 4: why we want to bring not only them, but the 59 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 4: entire town of Piked injustice and hopefully shed a light 60 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 4: on the crime and help bring everyone in some sense 61 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 4: of closure. 62 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,040 Speaker 1: Following the Roden murders, it was two and a half 63 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: years before the Wagners were arrested. In that time, many 64 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: other plausible theories were put forward, and there are those 65 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: who believe that some of them are credible possibilities. When 66 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 1: we began researching the story, we kept hearing rumblings about 67 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,440 Speaker 1: two of the victims we haven't discussed much yet, the 68 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: Rodent sons, Chris Junior and Frankie. From all accounts, twenty 69 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: year old Frankie was a wonderful man. He was a 70 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: devoted father and excited about his upcoming marriage to his fiance, 71 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: Hannah Gilly. Chris Junior was just a few years younger 72 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: than Frankie. Brittany, one of Chris Junior's oldest friends, talked 73 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: to Stephanie about her memories of him growing up. 74 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 9: When did you and Chris Junior meet for the first time? 75 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: How old were you? Guys? 76 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: We were young. 77 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 7: We were either in Kindergorton or first grade. 78 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 9: And you were friends from that day forward. 79 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 7: Yes, we actually dated first grade. 80 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: He was the love of my life. 81 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 9: What did the first grade version of you love about him? 82 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 6: He's a little bad and that's how he always was, 83 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 6: like he was the guy that he's like, I know, 84 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 6: I have it all like. 85 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,280 Speaker 4: He was that type of boy growing up. 86 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that kept coming up when we 87 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: talked to people around town was the Rodent boy's love 88 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: of demolition Derby. Frankie and Chris Junior were very passionate 89 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: about demolition Derby racing. They spent most of their time 90 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 1: building and rebuilding these cars to race in Derby's all 91 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: across Ohio. We spoke to journalist Jeff Winkler, who spent 92 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: some time at Derby Races as part of his investigation 93 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: into the Rodent murders. 94 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 3: Demolition Derby is if you've seen it on TV, it's 95 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 3: it looks like chaos, and a's to a degree it is, 96 00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 3: but it's you know, rainming into people. There's a lot 97 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 3: of loud noises, and there's a lot of concrete flying, 98 00:04:57,440 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 3: and there's fires and smoke and dirt and it's exciting 99 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,359 Speaker 3: and fun and people who love it love it. The 100 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 3: Rodents were deeply involved in demolition derbies in the area. 101 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 3: They were very much part of that culture. But demolition 102 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 3: derbies are really intense. You're smashing each other, I mean, 103 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 3: emotions get high. 104 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: Jeff told us about one Derby that Chris Junior and 105 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: Frankie participated in in May of twenty fifteen that ends 106 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: it in a bloody altercation. 107 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 3: Based on what's been reported in the court documents, I 108 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 3: think it's fair to say that Frankie and Chris Junior, 109 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 3: I mean, definitely were hot heads and definitely got into 110 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 3: fights here and there. They had an incident with a 111 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 3: fella named Tommy Gorman who was a rival in the 112 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 3: demolition Derbies. They got into a bit of a sort 113 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 3: of heated match, and there was a believe a sort 114 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 3: of incident on the track. They got upset with each other. 115 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 3: It's some bad blood and then again it's you know, 116 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 3: kind of picked up speed with Facebook posts about sort 117 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 3: of consulting each other. And then of course Chris Junior 118 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 3: Frankie drove over to Gorman's house and proceeded to really 119 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 3: beat on Gorman and his father, and the fights and 120 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: beatings were only really broken up after the grandfather came 121 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 3: out and pumped a few shotgun shells into the air. 122 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,479 Speaker 1: According to reports, the Rodents showed up with a dozen 123 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: friends and proceeded to brutally assault Tommy Junior and even 124 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: knocked out his father, Tommy Senior's front teeth in the 125 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 1: aftermath of the fight. Frankie was arrested and sentenced to 126 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: less than a year's probation for the attack. Chris Junior 127 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: was a juvenile at the time of the attack, and 128 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: no court records are available that charges made against him. 129 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,160 Speaker 1: Here's our producer Jeff Shane speaking to Jeff Winkler. 130 00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 4: And was Tommy and his family were they ever looked 131 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 4: at as suspects? Do you know, like, did the sheriff 132 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 4: ever interview them or see if they were involved? 133 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,239 Speaker 3: I mean, the press had talked to the Gorman family 134 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 3: after hearing about these fights, you know, on Facebook, but 135 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 3: as far as I know, the law enforcement never really 136 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 3: approached them. 137 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: Well, the Gormans admitted to reporters that there was some 138 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:08,479 Speaker 1: bad blood between them and the Rodent family, it was 139 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: not enough to retaliate and certainly not enough to kill over. 140 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: In fact, the Gorman family were never suspects in the investigation, 141 00:07:15,920 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: but there were more people to look into as our 142 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: investigation unfolded. So too to the list of people who 143 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: could have wanted payback on the Rodents. Take Rusty Mongold, 144 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: another local kid who had gotten into an altercation with 145 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 1: Chris Junior just two weeks before the Rodents were murdered. 146 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 3: Long Gold had posted on Facebook that Chris Junior hit 147 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: him with a car and in his message, you know 148 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: he uses some pretty tough language. I mean, Rusty was 149 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: nineteen at the time, and you know he's talking about 150 00:07:44,680 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: I'm gonna break his fucking legs and Curb stop his ass, 151 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: and I mean just sort of sort of nineteen year 152 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 3: old bluster. Really, the Rusty Mongol thing happened just two 153 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 3: weeks before the murders, so I mean, I think this 154 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 3: was pretty obvious that the investigators had to check that out. 155 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 3: And of course he got pulled over and was detained 156 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: and even did a DNA sample, but it was pretty 157 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 3: clear that he had nothing to do with it. But 158 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 3: you know, that kind of language is certainly going to 159 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 3: grab the attention of authorities, especially after something like this. 160 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,120 Speaker 1: With authorities finding no clear link between Rusty Mongold, the 161 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: Gorman family, and the Rodent murders, the feeling around Python 162 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: was still ominous. No one knew who could be responsible 163 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: for the mass murder, or even if the responsible parties 164 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: lived next door. Jeff Winkler fills us in on yet 165 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: another incident that happened leading up to the murders. 166 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: According to court documents, on February twenty fourth, and this 167 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 3: was two months before the murders, So two months before 168 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 3: the murders In late February, Chris Junior was involved in 169 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: a road rage incident with a thirty three year old 170 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 3: woman named Rebecca Allen. Apparently, the court records, Rebecca had 171 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 3: slapped Chris Junior in the face, and she also made 172 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:08,920 Speaker 3: threats against him and his mother, Dana, which were recorded 173 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 3: on a cell phone. 174 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: Here's what we know about this. Dana Roden, Chris Junior's mom, 175 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: got involved as well, and Rebecca Allen ultimately got two 176 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: years probation, forty hours of community service, and a restraining 177 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: order against contacting Chris Junior and Dana Rodin. This was 178 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:29,320 Speaker 1: on April twentieth, twenty sixteen, one day before the murders 179 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: took place. 180 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 9: There were definitely some scrapes, some posting, and yeah, some 181 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,560 Speaker 9: social media threats. But is that really motive enough to 182 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 9: murder eight people? 183 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 4: Of course not, But the timing of it is interesting. 184 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 4: You know, as we try to understand what's happened, it's 185 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 4: important to know everything this family was going through up 186 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 4: until the murders, because we don't know what's important until 187 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 4: we know it's important. But going back to Rebecca Allen 188 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 4: and the road ridge incident for just one second, Leonard 189 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 4: Manley Dana's father, who at this point point was just 190 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,360 Speaker 4: trying to cope with the tragedy, was quoted in the 191 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 4: news as saying that Rebecca Allen should be looked into 192 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 4: with regards to the massacre. 193 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 9: Danner Roden's family. The Manleys, were deeply entrenched in the 194 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 9: roadens day to day lives, and they were a key 195 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 9: piece of the investigation at first. Bobby Joe Manley, for example, 196 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 9: she's the one who discovered their bodies and also made 197 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 9: that first nine to one one call. 198 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: Here's investigative reporter Jody Barr. 199 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 6: The days after this and I Am on one calls 200 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 6: were beginning to be produced, so then you could get 201 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 6: a picture of what happened that morning that you know, 202 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 6: a family member went into the first home and found 203 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 6: the first two dead, Gary and Chris. 204 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,040 Speaker 8: Okay, okay, I need to get out of the house. 205 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 9: Did you drive over there? 206 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 10: That's again? 207 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 6: Okay? 208 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 8: What's your your name? My Bobby, Bobby? 209 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 3: What's your brother? 210 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 6: Last name? 211 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 8: Yeah? 212 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 10: What's his name? 213 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 6: Chris Rode? And dad? That was Bobby Joe Manley. You 214 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 6: hear about James Manley going over to Dana's house, finding 215 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 6: his sister, dad, his niece, and nephew. So you start 216 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 6: getting some more pieces to put together in this puzzle 217 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,079 Speaker 6: and then you realize, well, wait a minute, why were 218 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 6: they there? 219 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: Police want to know that too. 220 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 6: We found out from Lynn Manley, that's Dana Roden's father, 221 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 6: James Manley's father, that Bobby Joe and James were both 222 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 6: taken down into the Pike County Sheriff's office and interrogated. 223 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 6: So from the outset, when you look at that and 224 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 6: you go, well, obviously they had two people in mind. 225 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 6: These were the two people who made the initial fines 226 00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 6: of the bodies that morning and made those nine on 227 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 6: one calls. And then we had gotten word that investigators 228 00:11:54,640 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 6: wanted to know who paid them to murder their own family. 229 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,479 Speaker 1: Over the next few weeks, Bobby Joe Manleys questioned several times. 230 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 6: These people are not only being looked at his murder suspects, 231 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 6: They're going through the entire process. They're being interrogated, they're 232 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:15,720 Speaker 6: given polygraphs. I can tell you I spoke with Bobby 233 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 6: Joe Manley on the porch of her father's home and 234 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 6: she told me that she was given three polygraph tests 235 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 6: and passed everyone. 236 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: As the suspicion surrounding Bobby Joe subsides. Authorities began taking 237 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: a closer look at James Manley, and it's not too 238 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 1: long before they make a stunning discovery about who he 239 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: talked to on the night of the murders. 240 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 6: In the overnight hours at two am. This would have 241 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 6: been just, for all we know, minutes before the murders 242 00:12:44,120 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 6: two in the morning. I mean the bodies were found 243 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 6: at sun up, but that at two in the morning, 244 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 6: James was texting with Jake Wagner. Jake obviously now charged 245 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 6: in these murders. We didn't know the context of those 246 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 6: ten but we do know that happened, and you know, 247 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 6: it's just strange suspicions. And then James Manley took a 248 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 6: polygraph and failed that. 249 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break here, we'll be 250 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: back in a moment. Here again is Jodi Barr commenting 251 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: on James Manley's failed polygraph. 252 00:13:33,800 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 6: I don't know what to make of that. You know 253 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 6: what that means, failing a polygraph. I have no idea 254 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 6: because we don't know what questions were asked. 255 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 1: Without sufficient evidence to charge him, James Manley is released, 256 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: but police continue to keep an eye on him. 257 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 4: Something to think about is that no arrests were made 258 00:13:51,760 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 4: after this questioning or the alleged polygraph failure, So it's 259 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 4: not like the police found some sort of smoking gun 260 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 4: that implicated him in the crimes. Furthermore, are in the 261 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 4: state of Ohio, polygraphic examinations are admitted under limited circumstances 262 00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 4: in the court of law. In the state. Only if 263 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 4: all parties, including the defendant, defense attorney, and the prosecutor 264 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 4: agree in advance to the admissibility of the results, will 265 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 4: the court be inclined to admit them. 266 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 9: Plus, it's really not uncommon for immediate family members, particularly 267 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 9: those who have discovered bodies, to be considered air quotes 268 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 9: suspects at first. It's just a natural place for most 269 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 9: investigations to begin. All that said, I can only imagine 270 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 9: how difficult that must have been for the Manleies. 271 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 6: We found out later that it was some respect a 272 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 6: potential target of the investigation because we know that investigators 273 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 6: put a GPS device underneath James Manley's pickup truck and 274 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 6: for whatever reasons, they felt a need to track him. 275 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 6: And then James Manly finds that this GPS tracker attached 276 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,680 Speaker 6: to the underside of his pickup truck, he rips that off, 277 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,560 Speaker 6: and then he's arrested for doing that. 278 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:07,000 Speaker 1: This all happens in May of twenty seventeen, three hundred 279 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: and ninety days after James Manley's sister and her family 280 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: were murdered. He's charged with two felonies, tampering with evidence 281 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: and vandalism, both counts for removing the tracking device on 282 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: his car. 283 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 6: I can remember, you know, getting that news late late 284 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 6: in the day and driving straight to Ross County, Ohio, 285 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 6: to the jail where James Manley was booked and you know, 286 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 6: being held overnight or waiting a bond hearing. But on 287 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,400 Speaker 6: the way there, you're trying to replay these conversations in 288 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 6: your mind that you know, what were the scenarios that 289 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 6: involved James. Why is there a GPS tracker on the 290 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 6: brother of you know, a dead family. I mean, this 291 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 6: was hitting really close to home. So again, every trip 292 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:53,640 Speaker 6: to Pike County was this cloud of suspicion and confusion. 293 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 4: You wonder if they arrested him on those charges, to 294 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 4: try to just bring him in and hope that they 295 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 4: would then question him and he wouldn't it to something 296 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 4: murder related. 297 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 6: You know, that was a suspicion. You know, it's like, man, 298 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 6: where is this going to end up? You know, because 299 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 6: this story is horrible and horrific enough. 300 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 1: But six days after his arrest, the charges against James 301 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: Manley are dismissed. It's another dead end for investigators. 302 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 4: Another leading theory at the time was the involvement with 303 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 4: the drug cartel. The Rodents did have marijuana growing on 304 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 4: their property, and it was not just a few plants 305 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 4: here and there in the window. It was a lot. 306 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 4: A law enforcement source has confirmed that investigators found some 307 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 4: two hundred marijuana plants on all of the properties. The 308 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:43,000 Speaker 4: same source said that the size of the operation indicates 309 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 4: it was being grown for sale and not for personal use. 310 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 4: And just to put that into perspective, each plant could 311 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 4: produce around one pound of marijuana, and a pound of 312 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 4: high grade quality marijuana had a street value of around 313 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 4: two thousand dollars at the time, meaning that the Rodents 314 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 4: had in their possession four hundred thousand dollars worth of marijuana. 315 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,680 Speaker 9: I think it's worth noting also that the unemployment rate 316 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 9: in Piked in Ohio is one hundred and fifteen percent 317 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 9: higher than the national average, and I share that simply 318 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 9: to say, by all accounts, the Rodents were very hard 319 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 9: working people, and the fact that there was this marijuana 320 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 9: grow operation in their backyard kind of erased the entire investigation, 321 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 9: as if the Rodent family was just a bunch of 322 00:17:21,560 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 9: drug dealers who had it coming, and based on our research, 323 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,920 Speaker 9: that really doesn't add up. 324 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 4: It should be noted that around the same time as 325 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 4: the murders, marijuana was being legalized for medicinal use in 326 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 4: the state of Ohio, So in theory, the Rodents could 327 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 4: have been growing the crop to be distributed for people 328 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 4: who were prescribed marijuana legally to treat things like cancer 329 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 4: and Alzheimer's. 330 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 9: Also, when Jeff and I were in piked in the 331 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 9: last time, somebody said something to us in passing, and 332 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 9: it's always sort of stuck with me regarding the marijuana 333 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 9: grow operation. On the one hand, if it was a 334 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 9: small operation, how would that possibly constitute a drug cartel 335 00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 9: hit of this size four different locations. It fell very personal. 336 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,160 Speaker 9: Each crime scene seemed to tell a story of sorts, 337 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 9: not totally the mo of the drug cartel. In our 338 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 9: research on the flip, if it was a large scale operation, 339 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 9: they would have needed a lot of equipment, specialized lighting, 340 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 9: and that lighting likely would have caused a bit of 341 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 9: a surge in electricity that would have been noticeable by 342 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 9: the electric company number one and number two. It also 343 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:25,840 Speaker 9: would have been very bright. Where they lived was a 344 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 9: very rural road. It's dark, there's no street lights. How 345 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 9: would a grow operation of that size go unnoticed. 346 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, and based on all of our research, if it 347 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 4: really was the drug cartel, they would have killed the 348 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 4: dogs and the kids. They leave no one behind. 349 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,439 Speaker 3: I think it's okay for us to confirm that we 350 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:47,200 Speaker 3: did find marijuana. 351 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 9: In three locations. 352 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:53,480 Speaker 3: Is a grow operations. 353 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: Our producer Jeff Shane spoke to investigative journalist James Pilcher, 354 00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,880 Speaker 1: who was in and just after the announcement was made. 355 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 5: That obviously fueled even more speculation that these were outside operators. 356 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 5: Possibly was as a drug deal gone bad, or was 357 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:13,040 Speaker 5: somebody trying to take over their turf. All kinds of 358 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 5: rumors started flow after that disclosure. 359 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 4: So this idea that like a drug cartel being a 360 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 4: potential culprit, it does sound crazy. This small town infiltrated 361 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 4: by you know, international drug dealers in. 362 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 5: The middle of Appalachia in southern Ohio, you know, but 363 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:31,479 Speaker 5: if it turned out to be that, we would not 364 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 5: have been surprised because Mexican drug cartels had done a 365 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 5: lot of activity in southern Ohio, in the Pike County 366 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 5: and Soota County and in Ross County. 367 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: In fact, in August twenty twelve, law enforcement officers found 368 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: a major marijuana groves site in Pike County. It had 369 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 1: suspected ties to a Mexican drug cartel. During that raid, 370 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: officials destroyed about twelve hundred marijuana plants and found two 371 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: abandoned campsites they believed belonged to Mexican national The main. 372 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 5: Route from southern Ohio to Columbus, which is the next 373 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,200 Speaker 5: biggest city next to Cincinnati, cuts right all through there, 374 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 5: so you have those people coming in and out. Now, 375 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 5: were the Rodents involved directly in the narcotics business. There 376 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 5: were indications that they were involved in some drug deals, 377 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 5: in drug trade with marijuana. The Rodans had attack dogs, 378 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 5: which again belies that all American image, which means what 379 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 5: did they have to hide? They had attack dogs, the 380 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 5: security cameras, there was a lot of security at that place. 381 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 5: They wanted to protect what they had. Now, does that 382 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 5: mean that they were doing anything wrong, not necessarily, but 383 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 5: it certainly raised a lot of questions. 384 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 1: Journalist Jodi Barr walked off through the logic of the 385 00:20:53,080 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: drug cartel theory. 386 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 6: As the months war on, no one has been arrested, 387 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,920 Speaker 6: no one charged, no people named as persons of interest, 388 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,960 Speaker 6: you really started to wonder, you know, maybe this drug 389 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:09,240 Speaker 6: cartel thing has there was something to that. They definitely 390 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 6: knew how to kill people. You know, you're looking for 391 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 6: signs of a drug cartel, and then you find Kenneth 392 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 6: Roden with what appeared to be a gunshot in the head. 393 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 6: Whether there were dollar bills or some sort of paper 394 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 6: money spread around the body, Was that a sign? What 395 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 6: did that mean? You know, as you know, a reporter, 396 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 6: you're studying back, trying to draw conclusion or at least 397 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 6: a lead from what this meant. I mean, what does 398 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 6: that mean? There's a body lying there with money on it, So, 399 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 6: of course a drug cartel. At that point in time, 400 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 6: you couple with the Attorney General announcing that they found 401 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 6: commercial grow operations, it made sense. 402 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: Let's stop here for another quick break. We'll be back 403 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: in a moment. The discovery of the Rodents grow operation 404 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: didn't just complicate the case and who might be responsible. 405 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: It forced the residents of Python to reconsider their feelings 406 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: for the family. 407 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 6: As soon as the Line and Reader made that announcement 408 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 6: of the commercial grow operations, that appeared to change the 409 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 6: entire public perception of these murders. The empathy for this family, 410 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 6: and even the monetary donations that were coming in to 411 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 6: help bury these people, all of that stopped. There was 412 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 6: a large reward put up by Jeff Ruby, a restaurant 413 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,040 Speaker 6: owner in Cincinnati, that was rescinded that day. The public 414 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 6: support they were getting almost vanished that day. I mean, 415 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 6: these were eight innocent people, and then sort of flipped 416 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 6: on its head that, you know, these were eight people 417 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 6: potentially involved in some large drug offeration and then people 418 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 6: seemingly just instantly stopped caring. And you know, all that 419 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 6: momentum the family had of you know, the public being 420 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:12,520 Speaker 6: interested in this by trying to solve it, taking care 421 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 6: of this, you know, these kids who were left trying 422 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 6: to bury these eight people. I mean, that's a large 423 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 6: expense that vanished that day, and that was over as 424 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 6: soon as that announcement was made. 425 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: However, those closest to the family never believed a cartel 426 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: was behind the murders. 427 00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 6: Kendra Rodent is Kenneth Roden's daughter. Kenneth was that eighth victim. 428 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 6: The final victim found worked out an interview with Kendra 429 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 6: and her mother at their home, and I mean through 430 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 6: that interview we finally got a look at how close 431 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 6: his family really was. Kendrick just going through her phone 432 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 6: with her. She had pictures with Hannah, she had pictures 433 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,919 Speaker 6: with Chris Junior, she had pictures with Dana, her father 434 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 6: obviously was a large part of the photos stored on 435 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 6: her phone. I mean, they looked like a normal family. 436 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,359 Speaker 6: I mean there was nothing in those pictures that would 437 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 6: indicate that, you know, a week later, eight of these 438 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 6: people in these pictures would no longer draw the breath 439 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 6: of life. Man. You just it was nothing to indicate that. 440 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 6: And you're looking at these pictures and you're looking for 441 00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 6: some clue, You're looking for that sign from Kendra when 442 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 6: you're invited into her home. You saw none of that. 443 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 6: I mean, it was almost like, That's why it's almost 444 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 6: unbelievable that it even happened, because when you look at 445 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 6: these photographs and you talk to these people, they're just 446 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 6: like anybody else. You'd ever talk to a typical rural 447 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 6: American family who rose to this notorious, you know, platform 448 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:47,720 Speaker 6: through the nightly news, coming out and telling the world 449 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:52,360 Speaker 6: about their darkest hour. Eight people murdered in their homes 450 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 6: while they slept, children spared, covered with blood, And it's like, 451 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 6: you try to reconcile what you saw in those photographs 452 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 6: in the story that Kendra Roden was telling about this 453 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 6: family to the picture that you now have of them 454 00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 6: murdered in these homes, apparently involved in some sort of 455 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 6: commercial drug industry, and then you try to put all 456 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,360 Speaker 6: that together. I mean, I don't know how the hell 457 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 6: you figure that out. It was so confusing. 458 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 1: So if it wasn't a drug cartel, who was it. 459 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: Let's shift our focus back to the Wagners for a minute. 460 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,880 Speaker 1: Could there be other motives aside from the custody dispute 461 00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 1: between Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin. As we found out 462 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: from speaking to journalist Jeff Winkler, there were more connections 463 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: between the Rodens and the Wagners than just Hannah and Jake. 464 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 3: Obviously, the families shared a grandchild together, so there was 465 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 3: just a lot of interaction between the families but as 466 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 3: the investigation went on, you know, there was a clear 467 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 3: sort of trail between Christopher Roaden Senior and Bill Wagner. 468 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 3: They had been a long time acquaintance, is possibly friends, 469 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 3: and also business partners. They were just you know, some 470 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 3: good old boy entrepreneurs. These are multi generational families in 471 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 3: the same area. So yeah, they just again that sort 472 00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 3: of mix of family and friends and neighbors and business partners, 473 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: all sorts of blends in together. 474 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 4: Angela Wagner even had said to the press that her 475 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 4: and her husband and Chris Senior were longtime friends. Like 476 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 4: the Wagners were presenting them as close allies. 477 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:31,680 Speaker 3: And I think some of that, of course, is trying 478 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 3: to you know, sort of portray the family as not 479 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 3: adversarial to the Rodents. But they had something to have 480 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 3: fallen out before the murders. 481 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: Attorney and legal commentator Mike Allen Phil Deson. 482 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: Back in mid April twenty and sixteen, supposedly there was 483 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: a fight between Chris Senior and Billy Wagner that witnesses 484 00:26:56,280 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: say ended with Billy threatening to quote come back and 485 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 2: finished them all unquote. Nobody seems to know what the 486 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 2: fight was about or what caused it. But you know, 487 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,240 Speaker 2: these two families, from everything that I've seen, were probably 488 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 2: not shy about taking care of business if they felt 489 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 2: somebody abuse them or their family. 490 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: So could this all have stemmed from some kind of 491 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: business arrangement gone wrong? Though we can't be positive. One 492 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 1: thing we do know is that the detail of Chris 493 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,680 Speaker 1: Senior's autopsy seems to indicate that his death was much 494 00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,600 Speaker 1: different than the other seven victims. Here's James Pilcher speaking 495 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 1: to Jeff again. 496 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:43,680 Speaker 4: Of all the crime scenes that day, like his was 497 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 4: known to be the worst. 498 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, he was shot the most first of all. He 499 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 5: was shot nine times, possibly because he was trying to 500 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 5: fight back, but possibly because you know, the vendetta was 501 00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 5: mostly against him, or he was the primary target, I 502 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 5: should say. And then they positioned his his body in 503 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 5: a certain way and actually drug his body away from 504 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,680 Speaker 5: where he had originally fallen, So that gave investigators even 505 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 5: more of an indication that this was personal. 506 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: An anonymous Wagner family relative told Jess that the situation 507 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: between the Wagners and the Rodents was reaching a boiling point. 508 00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: This was just before the Rodents were found dead. 509 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 8: I knew that they were the families, Hannahs, the Rodents, 510 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 8: and you know my family. They were fighting. There was 511 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,679 Speaker 8: a lot of tension there, bad blood there, but I 512 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 8: never thought in a million years that they had anything 513 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 8: to do with that. To me, it's just it's so overwhelming. 514 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 8: There's a feeling that is almost indescribable. It's kind of like, 515 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 8: you know, you don't know how to react, so you're 516 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 8: constantly at least I am at this, like I fail, 517 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 8: Like it does a war with my emotions, my feelings, 518 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 8: because I love them so much, you know what, I 519 00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 8: care about them, and they are family, that's your family. 520 00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 8: So it's hard to just turn your back and be like, Okay, 521 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 8: well you're a freaking monster though I want nothing to 522 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 8: do with you, and I don't love you no more 523 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 8: and I don't care about you no more. 524 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 4: So it seems like your relationship with Angela and her 525 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 4: family really changed and never really was the same. 526 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 8: Yep, it did, one hundred percent. It was absolutely mind blowing. 527 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 8: I just couldn't I couldn't picture it because I knew 528 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 8: them completely different people, you know what I mean. Like 529 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 8: I would have never pictured Angela being capable or or 530 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 8: the boys of any of that. 531 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: When we first heard about the Roden murders, we were 532 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: shocked at the brutality of it all, and when we 533 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: first got to piked In, we couldn't believe that these 534 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: murders took place in this community. But upon speaking to 535 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: residents and learning more about the town, we discovered that 536 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: the Rodents were not the first murder victims who called 537 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: Pikedin home. 538 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 10: You know, if you look back through the history piked 539 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 10: And there's quite a bit of things that just happened that, 540 00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 10: you know, there's no explanation for get swept under the rug. 541 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 10: I don't know. I think there's just more evil there 542 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 10: than just what happened to those eight. 543 00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 7: Pike County is beautiful. It's a beautiful place, but there's 544 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 7: a lot of dirty people here too. For the town 545 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 7: that we you know, the size of our town, there's 546 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 7: been a lot of murders here that have not been solved. 547 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:44,360 Speaker 1: More on that next week. Piked In Massacre is executive 548 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: produced by Stephanie Leidecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and 549 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: sound design by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing by 550 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The piked In Massacre is 551 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio and Kat Studios. For more podcasts. 552 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 1: For myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or 553 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.