WEBVTT - How Lizzie Borden Worked 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to stuff you should know from house stuff Works 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:13.399 dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:19.280 and there's Charles and and Jerry's back. Wow. Wow, wow, 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.400 look at that fine looking lady over there. How's it going, Jerry? 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:26.920 She gave us the fine thumbs up. It's just like 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.520 old times. Yeah, Nol is just quietly weeping outside. He is, 0:00:30.680 --> 0:00:32.839 you know, like back outside Noel. He's peaking in her 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.520 little portal window, scratching at it. The stint of Noel ak, 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:40.559 the rain of terror is over done. Yes, has been 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:43.720 deposed by Jerry. So now it's not Noel sitting there 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.440 or nobody sitting there. Happened more times than I was 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.560 comfortable with, at least four. Yeah, Jerry's like, wait a minute, 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:53.680 that we can do that. I'm out of here. Yeah, 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.800 so long, Jerry. So welcome back, Jerry. And uh, we've 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.320 already said congratulations on little Is, but who just keeps 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:04.280 getting cuter and cuter. Yep, I know things are going great, 0:01:04.400 --> 0:01:09.160 so we're happy to have you back. And Lily Nez, 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.840 you're being very quiet, just stay that way. She's just 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:17.880 rocking in her little swing. Yeah, would be having babies. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:19.920 In here. Yeah, if they shut up, wouldn't that be cool? 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:22.360 For sure? Good energy. I would just feel bad for 0:01:22.440 --> 0:01:25.479 him because it gets pretty gamey in here. Yeah, even 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:28.240 after like fifteen minutes, a couple of hours. I kind 0:01:28.240 --> 0:01:30.959 of stink today. Actually, I was gonna oppolize. Yeah, I 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.800 didn't use deodorant the first time I showered him, just 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:37.160 like two days ago. It's fantastic. I know, it's terrible. 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:41.240 I even dressed up. Man, that's great. That. Yeah, I'm 0:01:41.240 --> 0:01:43.920 gonna take care of that tonight. That explains the sheen 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:50.880 on your face. Okay, so we're here, Jerry's here, I smell. 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:54.680 Let's do it. Since you do smell, chuck, I have 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:56.920 to say, at least, at the very least, I'm grateful 0:01:57.000 --> 0:02:00.240 that we don't happen to be in Fall River, Massachusetts 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:06.440 on the morning of augusto because that morning was particularly 0:02:06.680 --> 0:02:10.960 particularly hot, unseasonably hot. It was over a hundred degrees 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:15.560 fahrenheit by the time noon rolled around, And that figures 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.520 heavily in the case of Lizzie Borden and her forty 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:23.079 and forty one wax, which were more like eighteen or 0:02:23.160 --> 0:02:27.960 nineteen and eleven. Yes, are you? You were familiar with 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.680 Lizzie Boy. Everybody knows Lizzie Borden. Right, Yeah, Lizzie Borden 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.160 took an X, gave her mother forty wax. When she 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.280 found what she had done, she gave her father forty one. 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.600 Yeah wrong, there was no ax. It wasn't a real mother. 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.680 Wasn't a real mother. There wasn't so all about that 0:02:45.800 --> 0:02:49.120 was just made up. They think to sell newspapers. Yes, yeah, 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.239 they think it's a children's nursery rhyme these days, little 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.720 sicko children. Um. But but they do think that it 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:02.000 was possibly some newspaper hawker, a newsy if watch Disney movies, Um, 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:05.360 who came up with it and they just took off. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.480 We should change it to Lizzie Borden may or may 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:11.519 not have taken a hatchet given her stepmother eighteen or 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:15.240 nineteen wax, thirteen of them crushed her skull when she 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.360 saw what she had done. Her father got home, she 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.160 gave him eleven or so and then got away. Yeah 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.520 it Scott Free. That doesn't have the same ring. No, 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:27.919 that doesn't. But you basically did just sum it up 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:31.600 pretty well, pretty accurately, Chuck. So for those of you 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:34.880 who don't know who Lize Boorden is just settled down, buckling, 0:03:35.280 --> 0:03:38.400 prepare for a wild ride. For those of you who 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:42.480 do know, do the same. Okay, Yeah, because we have 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:48.360 new evidence, Yeah, that we're gonna reveal the controvertible evidence 0:03:48.400 --> 0:03:52.280 of exactly who carried out these murders, and the only 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.680 people who have it is us, because we're gonna make 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.040 it up and you'll find out in thirty five ish 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.560 minutes or forty apparently to stuffy miss and she classed 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.440 an episode on Lizzie Board. If this floats, your boat 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:06.200 goes into that one too. Yeah, I should point out 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.480 to the very first thing we said. We told Jerry 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:12.000 were doing Lizzie Board and she said lesbian. Yeah, and 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:16.200 we said maybe that's one of the theories. Yeah, this 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:19.719 will all figure in. We're just teasing, teasing like crazy, 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:26.080 all right. So the morning of August four, Fall River, Massachusetts. Ah, 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:29.160 very cute town, by the way. I'm sure you mean 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:31.200 I visited recently? Who did you go to the house? 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.920 Why else would you go there? That's about it. Yeah, 0:04:35.200 --> 0:04:38.640 that was on your death tour, your murder tour, um. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.080 But in two like I said, it was over a 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:45.119 hundred degrees ferrent height on August four, really really hot 0:04:45.160 --> 0:04:48.599 for that area. And at about ten I think about 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.360 ten forty five am, wasn't it. Yeah, about ten forty 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.200 five the first murder, No, the father coming home. Oh yeah, yeah. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:58.800 They placed both of these events within like thirty to 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:01.960 forty five minutes. There's you know, a given take there. 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:06.080 So about ten forty five am one, Andrew Jackson Boorden 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.600 returns to his home at nine two Second Street in 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:12.800 Fall River, mass And. Um, the the house is in 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:17.440 a part of town that was very popular among recent immigrants, 0:05:17.640 --> 0:05:22.120 specifically Irish Catholics and Portuguese. Uh. And I believe there's 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:26.080 some Chinese immigrants there as well. It wasn't an upscale 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:29.280 part of town by any means. Despite the fact that 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:33.240 Andrew Borden was an extremely wealthy man. Yeah, he was 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:37.440 worth between seven and ten million today dollars. I've I've 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:42.159 heard twelve let's say between seven and twelve. Then that's 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:44.680 a lot of dough and also a good reason to 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.599 kill somebody. Yeah. Um, and he despite having a lot 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.640 of dough, he lived in one of the lower rent 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:53.600 sections of the town. Um. His house did not have 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.520 indoor plumbing, which was kind of odd by this time 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:01.480 for that area. Um. Apparently many of the people who 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.560 were far far worse off than his family financially head 0:06:04.560 --> 0:06:07.200 indoor plumbing. He did not. He also didn't have any 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:12.160 kind of electric lighting. Instead he used kerosene lamps, and uh, 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:16.360 he kept doors locked. He was very afraid of being robbed. Yeah, 0:06:16.839 --> 0:06:19.119 let's cover this bit real quick. I think we should 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.039 read this. Um. There's a lady named Angela Carter who 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:27.080 wrote about the case. She actually factored into our our 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.800 fairy Tales episode. She was the feminist rewrote fairy Tales. 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.880 She wrote what was that Neil Jordan's take on Little 0:06:35.960 --> 0:06:38.799 Rod Ride and her hood? Yeah, I remember she wrote 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:44.000 the So she said the house was originally a two 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:46.800 family home and they converted it to a single family 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:49.400 home but didn't take a lot of time. Apparently just 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.200 knocked down some walls through in a staircase and it 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:55.400 ended up being a weird house because of that. It 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:58.599 is very weird. And she describes it as, uh, this 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.760 way a house full of doors that open only into 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.720 other rooms, with other locked doors for upstairs and downstairs. 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:07.680 All the rooms led in and out of one another 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.200 like a maze and a bad dream. It is a 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.800 house without passages. There is no part of the house 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:16.320 that has not been marked as some inmates personal territory 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.320 inmate very nice. It is a house with no shared 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.240 no common spaces between one room and the next. It 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.920 is a house of privacies sealed as close as if 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.760 they had been sealed with wax on a legal document. Creepy. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:33.240 No hallway is or anything weird. No, each room led 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.560 into the next, and in fact Lizzie's bedroom led right 0:07:36.640 --> 0:07:40.000 into her sister Emma's bedroom too. For Emma to go 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:42.400 to bed, she would have had to go through Lizzie's bedroom, 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:45.800 um and then her Her stepmother and father's bedroom was 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:50.720 behind hers, but it was sealed off by a locked 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:54.000 door and access through staircase that only your father used 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:56.440 that you could get to only with the key. Yeah, 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.600 And to go up and down the stairs, they had 0:07:58.600 --> 0:08:01.520 to go through their parents bedroom right, Yes, but they 0:08:01.520 --> 0:08:03.920 didn't do that. That was it was off limits. It 0:08:03.960 --> 0:08:06.080 was locked. They just jumped out the second story window. 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.680 There was a front staircase, actually built a second staircase 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:12.760 so that her their their parents could come and go 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:15.800 to their room without having to go through Lizzie's room, 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:18.320 so for all intentsive purposes, but this locked door, it 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:22.200 was a wall that sealed off their parents room from there. Yes, 0:08:22.280 --> 0:08:25.680 and when we say parents, uh, this is a stepmother. 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:29.960 Lizzie was born Um to Sarah Morse and her father 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:34.240 in eighteen sixty third child. Um had an older sister 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:37.840 named Emma, ten years older. The second daughter named Alice, 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:40.480 who died when Lizzie was two. Yes, she had. She 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.840 died from hydra and cephily. You could just make up 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:48.000 anything back then, something believable, you know. Uh. And then 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.600 her mother died in eighteen sixty three when she was 0:08:50.640 --> 0:08:56.199 just two of uterine congestion. And then when Lizzie turned 0:08:56.440 --> 0:09:00.359 right before she turned five, he remarried to Abby Gray, 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.439 who the daughters were in their thirties by the time 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:08.720 the murder took place, unmarried at Spinster's Uh. And never 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.640 seemed like they had a great relationship with add they didn't, 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:16.760 but they both adored their father and Um he he 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.800 personally appreciated that for his benefit, they referred to her 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:24.440 as mother, and they did for decades until the time 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.640 which we'll get to um. But they they the reason 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.760 that Um Andrew Borden kept a house locked all the time. 0:09:31.840 --> 0:09:33.880 Was because a couple of years before there had been 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.560 a burglary where some mysterious burglar had come in and 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:40.319 made off with a hundred dollars and some Charlie tickets 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:44.560 and some jewelry. I think, and Uh it was basically 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.280 pretty well known around town that it was Lizzie who 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.440 had done it. Sounds like an inside job in nation 0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:53.440 she robbed her own father rather than accused his daughter 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.640 of this extraordinarily scandalous behavior at the time. Sure, Um, 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.200 he just locked everything and all doors were locked all 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:04.400 the time. Um, and he kept a key to his 0:10:04.480 --> 0:10:07.760 room on the mantel, basically daring anybody to even try it, 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:11.040 because he would know what happened, because the only way 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.640 you could get in was through this key. The only 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:14.960 way to get to the key would be to have 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.400 a key to the outside doors. We say all this 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.640 to say that when Andrew Um Borden came back home 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.560 that day on August four, that morning, Uh, he was 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.280 locked out of his own house and he had to 0:10:27.280 --> 0:10:29.640 be led in by the maid whose name was Bridget, 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.920 but who Emma and Lizzie called Maggie because they had 0:10:33.960 --> 0:10:37.400 had another maid named Maggie, and they decided that they 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:41.160 just were gonna call this one Maggie too. That sounds like, um, 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:44.360 do you watch the show another period? Huh? That's great. 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:48.440 It's a comedy Central basically a reality TV spoof of 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:53.319 like Dounton Abbey and Um. The two lead Natascheaa Gerro 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.000 and uh oh, I can't remember her name from Garth 0:10:56.000 --> 0:10:59.800 funcle On notes the blonde she does the she's the other. 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.280 I think they co created the series, but they're just 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.679 these rich girls who would like they renamed one of 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:10.800 the maid's chair. How have I not even heard of this? 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:12.960 I don't know, man, It's really funny. It's got a huge, 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.680 great cast, big fan. H have you seen Anthony Doeslick 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.720 special on Netflix yet? Oh? No, dude, I love that 0:11:19.720 --> 0:11:24.400 guy though. It's really yeah so so awful but wonderful. 0:11:24.520 --> 0:11:27.400 Yeah yeah so uh Andrew Boording gets let back into 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:32.200 his own house, not Anthony does. Um and he uh. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.680 He gets let back in by the maid and he 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.120 decides he's going to lay down for a little while 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.520 on the couch. Right. Apparently the whole family was under 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:44.720 the weather, including the maid, because they have been eating 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:49.480 the same mutton for like five days. Mutton's gross to 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.040 begin with. Five day old mutton that had been stored 0:11:52.080 --> 0:11:56.040 in the heat in an ice box outdoors is not 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:58.319 just gross, it's really bad for you. So the whole 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.560 family had basically come down to very degrees of um 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.280 food poisoning. Yeah, like so much so that Mrs Borden 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:08.120 Abbey Borden had gone to talk to the doctor the 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.520 day before the murders and said, I think we're being 0:12:10.520 --> 0:12:15.520 poisoned by one of my husband's business rivals or my stepdaughter, right, 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.520 you know something like that. Uh. Yeah, that's not all 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.920 the weirdness that was going on, um in the in 0:12:20.960 --> 0:12:23.880 the months and weeks before the murders. Uh, there was 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:27.200 a lot of uh not strange, but a lot of 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.080 financial goings on that kind of raised the ire of 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:36.080 the daughters. Um. Notably, Andrews started uh being fairly generous 0:12:36.120 --> 0:12:40.600 with other members of the family, giving away properties and things, uh, 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.560 including to Abbey. He gave her a house that she 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:46.280 let her sister live in. Her sister was in big trouble, 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:48.800 so he helped her out. Yeah, so he's got money, 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:55.240 he's like, um uh so he said, you know what, 0:12:55.600 --> 0:12:58.120 I'll give you each a property as well for a 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:03.240 dollar and you're you're welcome. And they ended up reselling 0:13:03.240 --> 0:13:06.360 that back to Dad for cash later, which was kind 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.680 of jerky. Yeah. Well it was a rental property and 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.760 he had a bunch of rental properties, and apparently his 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.400 miserliness was very well known. Um. He also directed some 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:19.280 mills right and Fall Rivers incredibly famous for its mills. 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:23.000 It was it's a huge mill town. So he knew 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.400 that if you worked in the mills and rented at 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:28.240 home from him or a room from even he knew 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.040 if you got a raise, and if you got a raise, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.440 he would raise your rent. So this is a rental property, 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.160 one of his reynal properties that he sold to his 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.640 daughters so that they could have rental income. Apparently they 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:39.480 were they didn't feel like doing that, so they just 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:44.000 sold it back to him for like I think, increase. 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:48.280 Not bad for doing nothing. Uh. The other thing that 0:13:48.320 --> 0:13:51.439 happened in the um actually the night before the murderer 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:55.240 is there uncle John John Vinnegam Morris, who was there, 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.480 deceased mother's brother. He came a call in, uh to 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.760 speak about out some business with Andrew. And Um, there's 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.840 a lot of speculation on what was going on here. 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:08.959 Basically they think that it just ramped up a tent 0:14:09.120 --> 0:14:11.600 situation even more like he probably had his hand out 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.920 that maybe. I think it was fairly um common for 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.680 him to come by, and I think he was also, 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.960 I don't think he was supplicant to Andrew Borden. I 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.960 think they had business together a lot. Well, Lizzie didn't 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.680 like him, so I that's news to me too. Yeah. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:31.800 She she apparently didn't even speak to him, she said 0:14:31.840 --> 0:14:34.280 at the trial while he was there, right like, when 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:36.520 he came to visit and stay the night. She hadn't 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.080 spoken to him the whole time when he came and 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:41.120 then spent the night and then left the next morning. 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:43.640 Because it's very important. He was not in the house 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:47.120 when Andrew Borden came back into the house, right. Yeah. 0:14:47.160 --> 0:14:50.440 And she never called him uncle John, which is the 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:54.880 dead giveaway if you love your uncle. Yeah. I just 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.400 I didn't realize there was animosity between the two. I 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.400 don't know if there necessarily was. Is one of the 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:01.920 problems that we're going to run into it over and 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.160 over again, and it's also one of the reasons why 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.600 Lizzie Borden's legend has remained alive for so long, Like, 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.880 we have a propensity to take very complex, complicated people 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.360 and they're very complex complicated relationships with one another and 0:15:16.480 --> 0:15:20.440 boil them down into caricatures that we can understand and 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.160 easily explain. And so yeah, so over the century or so, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.360 we've done the same thing to Lizzie Borden case. So 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:29.800 it's really easy to speculate on and it's also easy 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:32.160 to interpret little things one way or the other, which 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.400 also makes the whole thing a lot of fun. Yeah, 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:36.880 that one. Everyone loves a cold case. Yeah, alright, so 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:39.160 let's take a break and uh, we'll get back to 0:15:39.200 --> 0:16:02.800 some of the nitty gritty deets right after this. So, Chuck, 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:05.680 you you were saying that the family it was tense 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.680 in the house. To be certain, it sounds like it 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.000 was always tense, but notably tense months leading up to 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:16.040 the murders. Yeah, and apparently at both Emma and Lizzie 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:20.120 took off for several weeks right before the murders. When 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.440 they came back, Lizzie didn't even come back to the house. 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.760 She rented a room for a few days. I guess 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:27.720 the ease herself back into having to live in this 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.600 house again. Kind of that's weird. Maybe three quarters of 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:35.640 the way house and she um, she and Emma both 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:40.000 stopped calling Mrs Borden mother all of a sudden around 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:43.600 the time that um, their father had given the house, 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.840 that extra house to her right, her sister was living in. 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.840 They started calling her Mrs Borden, including to her face. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.880 That's pretty chilly, right, So that's tense. Like you say, 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:57.840 Uncle John Morris might have increased this tension. And the 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:03.200 house was very very chilly, civilly cordial to an extent, 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.080 but just it was a house full of adults who 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.800 were not getting along and and like you said, probably 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.119 hadn't been for a while. Yeah, then' there was a 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:16.359 matter of in juneo um, Andrew, the father killed a 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:19.280 bunch of pigeons in the barn outside the house to 0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:22.480 make pigeons while so Abby could make a pigeon pie. 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:25.800 And supposedly Lizzie kind of thought of these pigeons as 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.600 her pets. So uh, that would not have been a 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.240 very cool thing to do if you know your daughter 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.320 loved these pigeons. So I'm in the mood for pigeon pie. Yeah. There. 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.639 He apparently also defended his actions by saying that he 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.560 was worried about intruders because local boys used to like 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:45.360 to come let themselves into their barn and hang out 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.119 with these pigeons and play with them. So he solved 0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:52.919 two problems dinner and boys coming over by just killing 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:56.600 Lizzie's pigeons. That's right. And she also beyond just liking 0:17:56.640 --> 0:17:59.960 these pigeons, she was also a huge animal lover. She's 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.480 a lot of money do it animal rights group, and 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:05.119 she died, so I mean, she probably would have taken 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.000 this fairly hard. On the flip side, though, so her 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.040 father just that characters caricature thing I was talking about. 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.960 Her father's painted is like this Ebenezer Scrooge type, super 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:18.960 miserly type visted. He definitely was that. But it's very 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.399 easy to extend this idea that he and Lizzie hated 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.520 each other, and that's absolutely not true. They both Lizzie 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.720 and Emma apparently very much loved their father, and their 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.280 father loved them. As a matter of fact, he wore 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.800 a pinky ring that Lizzie gave him when he was 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.800 when she was like fifteen, and he'd warn it every day, 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:40.160 never took it off, just like each other. A lot 0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.879 only jewelry he ever wore. It was like there was 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.879 definite affection there that often gets overlooked when you're just 0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.119 kind of painting this thing in broad strokes, you know. Yeah, 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.840 but like you said, he wasn't beloved in the town 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.240 because if you ask me if you have money and 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.959 you're a tight wade, it's like the worst thing it is, 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.280 does he have money? Be generous, That's what I say. Sure, 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.320 you know, pick up checks, be generous with your friends. 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.359 If you have dough and your I don't know, I can, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.240 it's not gonna make any friends. Let's just say that. 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.440 And it didn't in his case. So um, Also, if 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.760 you think about it, it is it reveals a lot 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:19.840 psychologically that the whole family has been eating the same 0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:23.760 mutton for five days and the first thing that Mrs 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.120 Borden thinks of is that their milk is being poisoned 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.840 by one of her husband's business rivals. That's where her 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:32.400 mind went exactly. So there's a I mean, yeah, it's 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:35.320 it's not just inside this house the tension. It's also 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:38.960 coming from outside a little bit as well. Yeah, and uh, 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:40.440 I guess we'll go ahead and point out if you 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:45.359 have the the circumstantial evidence surrounding Lizzie. So, one of 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:47.760 the things was in the days before the murderer, she 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.840 was trying to uh, she's been seen trying to buy 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:56.000 a poisonous prussic acid. She said, yeah, she said she 0:19:56.040 --> 0:20:00.359 wanted it to clean things. But other people, when the 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:02.920 trial said maybe she was trying to poison them. Although 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.800 autopsies revealed no poison in the bodies, no poison in 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.719 the milk, no, but the prosecutors wanted to use that 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:13.480 to to suggest that she had murder on her mind. Inadmissible. 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.000 It was ruled and admissible because they figured it'd be 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:19.080 too inflammatory, and it was entirely possible that she really 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:22.160 did want to clean this seal skin coat with that stuff. 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:25.480 All right, what else? This is the dress? Things pretty 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.120 damning well, hold on, before we get any further into that, 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.679 let's let's let's talk about the actual murders. You're ready. 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.240 So it talkings. Fourth. Her father has just come back in. 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.680 He's laying down on the sofa, right, and he goes 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:43.280 to sleep, and he never wakes up. The reason he 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.880 never wakes up is because like you said he got 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:50.160 hit from behind and above about eleven times with an 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:53.399 axe and hit and about the same area, so that 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:58.359 basically his face was cut clean away into nothingness. Um, 0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.800 probably a hatchet, not an X. Yeah, yeah, you're right, 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:04.520 I'm sorry, I hatch it. Um. And at about eleven ten, 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:08.240 Bridget was upstairs sleeping because again she's been throwing up 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.680 from the mutton um. When she gets roused by Lizzie 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.960 calling from downstairs saying, hurry, something's happened. She comes downstairs 0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.280 and she says, someone's coming and killed father. So now 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.719 this alert has just gone out. The first body has 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.240 been discovered, Andrew Borden, who's still bleeding right, and his 0:21:26.359 --> 0:21:29.520 face is hacked away. It's pretty grotesque. You can see 0:21:29.520 --> 0:21:32.160 the picture online. Yeah, so Bridget runs across the street 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:34.800 to the doctor to get him. Uh, comes back with 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.000 him and they say, where's your where's your mother? She's 0:21:38.000 --> 0:21:42.160 like stepmother. They're like, where's your stepmother? And she says, uh, 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.520 somebody came with a note or something like that. I 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:46.760 think she went to go visit a sick friend who 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:50.640 knows and um, then she goes, well, actually I think 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:52.520 I heard her come back in why don't you guys 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:57.000 go look upstairs, and Bridget is like, I'm not looking upstairs. 0:21:57.000 --> 0:21:58.720 There's a dead body here. How do we know there's 0:21:58.720 --> 0:22:01.240 not another another dead body? So a neighbor lady and 0:22:01.240 --> 0:22:05.280 Bridget goes upstairs and they see from the staircase into 0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.040 the bedroom. It's really cool when you go on the 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:10.720 tour of the house, you can stand where they stood 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:13.560 and see exactly what they would have seen. And there's 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.760 Mrs borden All I think two forty pounds of her 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.200 laid down on the floor with the back of her 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:23.600 head just split wide open with something like eighteen blows 0:22:24.000 --> 0:22:27.600 and again thirteen of them have been um, have just 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:30.840 completely crushed her skull. So now there's two dead bodies. 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:34.160 And eventually they are dragged into the dining room where 0:22:34.160 --> 0:22:40.199 they're autopsied, and rather than be buried there before they're buried, 0:22:40.440 --> 0:22:45.359 they're decapitated and their heads are sent to Harvard and 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:47.840 then eventually buried at the foot of their graves. Yes, 0:22:48.040 --> 0:22:52.919 like all decapitated heads exactly. So um. Almost immediately the 0:22:52.960 --> 0:22:56.679 cops went, uh, you yeah, you're the Lizzie was the 0:22:56.720 --> 0:22:59.880 only person in the house right because Bridget was out 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.000 side when her around the time that her mother Um 0:23:03.040 --> 0:23:06.760 would have been killed, Lizzie was ironing handkerchiefs with a 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:09.159